WEBVTT 00:00:01.840 --> 00:00:04.219 The truth of the matter is that the Bible and 00:00:04.219 --> 00:00:07.799 culture are frequently in conflict. Whether it's 00:00:07.799 --> 00:00:11.019 about sex or relationships or gender, I mean, 00:00:11.039 --> 00:00:14.660 there is so much confusion in our day. And parenting 00:00:14.660 --> 00:00:18.500 a young teen or a not -so -young teen gets very 00:00:18.500 --> 00:00:22.379 complex and very confusing. So today I've invited 00:00:22.379 --> 00:00:25.699 a great friend who has insight into these areas 00:00:25.699 --> 00:00:31.559 to help all of us. That's today. Welcome to this 00:00:31.559 --> 00:00:34.179 edition of Living on the Edge with Chip Ingram. 00:00:34.299 --> 00:00:37.200 We are an international teaching and discipleship 00:00:37.200 --> 00:00:39.960 ministry dedicated to helping Christians worldwide 00:00:39.960 --> 00:00:42.899 live out their faith for the glory of God and 00:00:42.899 --> 00:00:45.119 the good of all. Well, in just a minute, we'll 00:00:45.119 --> 00:00:48.079 continue our series, Uninvited Guests. Today, 00:00:48.159 --> 00:00:50.700 Chip sits down with author and apologist, Sean 00:00:50.700 --> 00:00:53.579 McDowell, as they help Christian families navigate 00:00:53.579 --> 00:00:57.009 the chaos of today's culture. Together, they'll 00:00:57.009 --> 00:00:59.969 empower parents with a game plan to discuss sexuality 00:00:59.969 --> 00:01:02.729 and gender issues with their kids when those 00:01:02.729 --> 00:01:05.609 conversations arise. Well, with all that said, 00:01:05.670 --> 00:01:08.709 here's Chip to get us started. Well, I'm really 00:01:08.709 --> 00:01:11.670 excited about today's program. We've done literally 00:01:11.670 --> 00:01:15.349 five weeks on this series we've called Uninvited 00:01:15.349 --> 00:01:18.790 Guests, recognizing and resisting the attacks 00:01:18.790 --> 00:01:22.209 on your family. And as the family goes, the world 00:01:22.209 --> 00:01:26.159 goes, society goes. People who love Jesus with 00:01:26.159 --> 00:01:28.560 all their heart are finding themselves in some 00:01:28.560 --> 00:01:30.840 really challenging times. So we've talked about 00:01:30.840 --> 00:01:33.799 the lies that we all believe in our marriages. 00:01:33.900 --> 00:01:36.260 And if we don't recognize what they are and address 00:01:36.260 --> 00:01:38.959 them, things don't go in a good way. And we've 00:01:38.959 --> 00:01:41.659 talked about all the issues around being parents. 00:01:41.799 --> 00:01:45.099 And I think when we get down to some of the things 00:01:45.099 --> 00:01:48.079 that our kids are experiencing, I realize there's 00:01:48.079 --> 00:01:51.140 people that God has placed in my life and in 00:01:51.140 --> 00:01:53.019 the body of Christ that have a lot more to say 00:01:53.019 --> 00:01:56.519 than I do. And they work very closely with the 00:01:56.519 --> 00:01:59.000 next generation. And as I think of parents and 00:01:59.000 --> 00:02:01.180 grandparents and fellow pastors that listen to 00:02:01.180 --> 00:02:04.040 the program, our goal is to serve you. Our goal 00:02:04.040 --> 00:02:06.700 is to really help you. And some of the things 00:02:06.700 --> 00:02:09.439 that your kids are facing, transgender issues, 00:02:09.740 --> 00:02:12.639 mom and dad, hey, I think I'm gay. There was 00:02:12.639 --> 00:02:14.800 a young woman came to me after one of the services. 00:02:15.530 --> 00:02:17.949 If you're asking me to choose what the Bible 00:02:17.949 --> 00:02:21.409 says versus giving up my friends because they're 00:02:21.409 --> 00:02:24.009 homosexual, and of course I was telling her, 00:02:24.030 --> 00:02:26.669 not give up your friends, but taking a stand 00:02:26.669 --> 00:02:29.349 about what's true and loving your friends. She 00:02:29.349 --> 00:02:31.370 just looked at me and said, well, I'm just giving 00:02:31.370 --> 00:02:34.770 up my faith. And so my guest today is Sean McDowell. 00:02:35.129 --> 00:02:39.050 He's a professor at Biola, author of many books. 00:02:39.580 --> 00:02:42.319 And you're with young adults all the time. You 00:02:42.319 --> 00:02:45.080 travel, you speak. You are much more in tune 00:02:45.080 --> 00:02:47.699 with the culture that I am. I just know there's 00:02:47.699 --> 00:02:49.419 a lot of people that are hurting and need help. 00:02:49.500 --> 00:02:51.379 And that's our goal today. Well, honored to be 00:02:51.379 --> 00:02:53.259 on. Thanks for having me back. Well, it's good 00:02:53.259 --> 00:02:55.699 to have you with us. And let me just jump in 00:02:55.699 --> 00:02:57.879 because what we're going to talk about is not 00:02:57.879 --> 00:03:00.819 parents that don't go to church regularly or 00:03:00.819 --> 00:03:04.259 families that are in crisis. There may be that. 00:03:04.889 --> 00:03:07.789 But people that have come into my world recently 00:03:07.789 --> 00:03:10.409 that are more committed to Christ, their marriage, 00:03:10.610 --> 00:03:14.189 raising their kids God's way, who have had these 00:03:14.189 --> 00:03:17.409 kind of situations. So, Sean, what do you say 00:03:17.409 --> 00:03:20.729 to that parent when their kid says completely 00:03:20.729 --> 00:03:24.330 out of the blue, Mom, Dad, I just want you to 00:03:24.330 --> 00:03:27.889 know I'm gay or I'm trans now. I really believe 00:03:27.889 --> 00:03:31.189 that I am a man trapped in a girl's body or vice 00:03:31.189 --> 00:03:33.849 versa. That's such a great question. It's interesting 00:03:33.849 --> 00:03:36.009 you asked this, Chip, because probably about 00:03:36.009 --> 00:03:38.889 two or three years ago, I interviewed a lady 00:03:38.889 --> 00:03:42.009 by the name of Ariel Scarcella, and she describes 00:03:42.009 --> 00:03:46.870 herself as the OG lesbian YouTube content creator. 00:03:47.050 --> 00:03:49.069 And she wanted to hear her story and see if we 00:03:49.069 --> 00:03:50.990 could find some common ground. So I said, you 00:03:50.990 --> 00:03:53.550 know, if you have any questions for a theology 00:03:53.550 --> 00:03:56.669 professor who's an evangelical, I'll give you 00:03:56.669 --> 00:03:58.129 the opportunity at the end. I had no idea what 00:03:58.129 --> 00:04:00.889 she was going to ask me. Her one question was, 00:04:00.930 --> 00:04:03.270 myself and many in my community would want to 00:04:03.270 --> 00:04:06.030 know, how would you respond if one of your kids 00:04:06.030 --> 00:04:09.650 came out as gay? And I had been thinking about 00:04:09.650 --> 00:04:11.810 this and actually made a social media post on 00:04:11.810 --> 00:04:14.210 it like a week or two before. And I said, my 00:04:14.210 --> 00:04:16.149 response would be, I'd say to my son or daughter, 00:04:16.250 --> 00:04:20.050 thanks for telling your dad. I can't imagine 00:04:20.050 --> 00:04:21.990 how long you've been thinking about this and 00:04:21.990 --> 00:04:24.129 wrestling with this and probably have some fear 00:04:24.129 --> 00:04:27.050 about how your dad would respond given who I 00:04:27.050 --> 00:04:30.800 am. positions that I hold. I want you to know 00:04:30.800 --> 00:04:33.379 that I love you no matter what. This doesn't 00:04:33.379 --> 00:04:35.860 change that I'm your dad, you're my son, my daughter. 00:04:36.319 --> 00:04:38.579 I love you and we're in this together for the 00:04:38.579 --> 00:04:41.699 long haul. Interestingly enough, she said something 00:04:41.699 --> 00:04:43.860 in effect of, she goes, wow, that was beautiful. 00:04:44.019 --> 00:04:45.279 When this is out, I'm going to share it with 00:04:45.279 --> 00:04:48.519 my community. And she shared the link. Wow. Now, 00:04:48.519 --> 00:04:52.399 one thing I would say to parents is if you haven't 00:04:52.399 --> 00:04:53.819 responded that way and you're like, you know 00:04:53.819 --> 00:04:56.649 what? I wish I had heard that a while ago. Give 00:04:56.649 --> 00:05:01.110 yourself some grace. We absolutely need biblical 00:05:01.110 --> 00:05:04.569 fidelity and we need truth. I would never question 00:05:04.569 --> 00:05:07.889 that. But on this issue, give yourself some grace. 00:05:08.110 --> 00:05:12.870 So if your kid comes to you and says, I'm bi, 00:05:13.129 --> 00:05:18.069 I'm gay, I'm trans, I'm fill in the blank, your 00:05:18.069 --> 00:05:20.829 first thought cannot be, what did I do wrong? 00:05:20.910 --> 00:05:24.740 How did I fail him? Give yourself some grace. 00:05:24.839 --> 00:05:28.660 I think there's a lot of reasons why we can blame 00:05:28.660 --> 00:05:32.220 ourselves. Some could be bad theology sometimes 00:05:32.220 --> 00:05:34.779 in the church that says, if I just do A, B, and 00:05:34.779 --> 00:05:37.480 C as a parent, I'm going to get this product 00:05:37.480 --> 00:05:40.360 of a kid who will follow the Lord. And that's 00:05:40.360 --> 00:05:43.199 just bad theology. It doesn't work that way. 00:05:43.819 --> 00:05:45.660 People have free will. It could be some of our 00:05:45.660 --> 00:05:49.100 own sinfulness and our pride of our kids being 00:05:49.100 --> 00:05:51.160 a certain way because they represent us. And 00:05:51.160 --> 00:05:54.560 there can be a lot of things going on. But bottom 00:05:54.560 --> 00:05:58.279 line is give yourself some grace. Don't blame 00:05:58.279 --> 00:06:03.560 yourself. Just love on your kid and take a long 00:06:03.560 --> 00:06:08.240 -term perspective and assure them early on that 00:06:08.240 --> 00:06:09.920 you're going to stand by them and love them as 00:06:09.920 --> 00:06:12.839 Jesus did. That's kind of step number one. As 00:06:12.839 --> 00:06:16.160 I think back of my more current experiences, 00:06:16.379 --> 00:06:20.160 and the very thing you described was, what did 00:06:20.160 --> 00:06:23.420 I do wrong? My son came back from college, or 00:06:23.420 --> 00:06:26.439 my daughter came back from school and said they're 00:06:26.439 --> 00:06:30.319 trans or they're gay. And I'm devastated. What 00:06:30.319 --> 00:06:32.899 happened? You know, I've walked with God. We 00:06:32.899 --> 00:06:35.220 had family devotions. And they start going through 00:06:35.220 --> 00:06:37.959 all the different things as a family, as though 00:06:37.959 --> 00:06:40.660 if they would have done it perfectly, then... 00:06:41.240 --> 00:06:43.259 Our kids are going to turn out like these wonderful, 00:06:43.480 --> 00:06:46.139 following Jesus, they'll never have a problem. 00:06:46.959 --> 00:06:50.220 Compassion has to be number one. It's not like 00:06:50.220 --> 00:06:54.480 your 21 -year -old or 16 -year -old or 24 -year 00:06:54.480 --> 00:06:57.680 -old has all of life figured out, and now they 00:06:57.680 --> 00:07:01.019 know this is exactly who they are. They're in 00:07:01.019 --> 00:07:04.399 a world of real confusion. and yet it doesn't 00:07:04.399 --> 00:07:08.560 change the reality of there is truth and god's 00:07:08.560 --> 00:07:11.740 plan for their life how do you move from the 00:07:11.740 --> 00:07:14.339 first step of compassion not blaming yourself 00:07:14.339 --> 00:07:18.399 or focusing inward to where do we go from here 00:07:18.399 --> 00:07:20.879 i think the next step is just to ask a lot of 00:07:20.879 --> 00:07:24.810 questions and to listen To highlight what you 00:07:24.810 --> 00:07:27.389 said before, if a kid comes out to you at 12, 00:07:27.730 --> 00:07:31.910 that's very different than one at 18 or 24 for 00:07:31.910 --> 00:07:35.209 so many different reasons. Yes. Our authority, 00:07:35.490 --> 00:07:38.129 they're still living in the home. There's just 00:07:38.129 --> 00:07:41.629 different dynamics at play there. But I would 00:07:41.629 --> 00:07:45.129 just ask a lot of questions and make sure it's 00:07:45.129 --> 00:07:47.449 the right environment. Sometimes kids have been 00:07:47.449 --> 00:07:50.310 thinking about this for weeks or months or years. 00:07:50.689 --> 00:07:53.209 Yes. Sometimes parents suspect it and see it 00:07:53.209 --> 00:07:55.930 coming. Sometimes it's just dropped out of the 00:07:55.930 --> 00:07:59.970 blue. So it's fair to just say, you know what? 00:08:00.069 --> 00:08:01.509 You've probably been thinking about this for 00:08:01.509 --> 00:08:06.029 a while. This is new to me. And I think it might 00:08:06.029 --> 00:08:08.050 take your mom and I a little bit to process and 00:08:08.050 --> 00:08:11.019 figure out how to navigate this. And what that 00:08:11.019 --> 00:08:13.279 looks like, I don't know what it all means, but 00:08:13.279 --> 00:08:15.360 I know I love you. I know I'm committed to you. 00:08:15.420 --> 00:08:17.040 I know I want to do the right thing, be the best 00:08:17.040 --> 00:08:21.019 parent to you that I can. That's completely reasonable 00:08:21.019 --> 00:08:24.699 to share and say, but before I say anything, 00:08:24.819 --> 00:08:28.339 tell me, when did you first feel this way? Have 00:08:28.339 --> 00:08:31.860 you told anybody else? How did they respond? 00:08:32.759 --> 00:08:35.379 How did you think we were going to respond as 00:08:35.379 --> 00:08:38.139 your parents? In your mind, just so we understand, 00:08:38.299 --> 00:08:41.659 what do you think it looks like for us to love 00:08:41.659 --> 00:08:45.179 you? Does this affect the way you think about 00:08:45.179 --> 00:08:48.480 Jesus and following after him? And at the end, 00:08:48.480 --> 00:08:51.059 your last question can be, I'm out of questions. 00:08:51.179 --> 00:08:53.460 Is there anything I should have asked you? Is 00:08:53.460 --> 00:08:55.860 there anything else you want to tell me? And 00:08:55.860 --> 00:08:58.720 just affirm that we have an open door here, and 00:08:58.720 --> 00:09:01.159 I'd love it if we stay on the same page moving 00:09:01.159 --> 00:09:04.059 forward. I mean, I could think of 100 questions. 00:09:04.789 --> 00:09:07.090 But I'm just going to listen and listen and try 00:09:07.090 --> 00:09:09.769 to understand where this young person is. Because 00:09:09.769 --> 00:09:13.590 this young person might be saying, I'm gay. And 00:09:13.590 --> 00:09:16.990 if you don't affirm me, you're out. That's a 00:09:16.990 --> 00:09:20.049 very different conversation than I have same 00:09:20.049 --> 00:09:22.230 -sex attraction. I don't know to do this. And 00:09:22.230 --> 00:09:25.929 I want to follow Jesus and follow what the Bible 00:09:25.929 --> 00:09:28.590 says. Like that's just a very different dynamic. 00:09:29.370 --> 00:09:31.570 And so I want to figure out where the kid is. 00:09:32.299 --> 00:09:34.559 You know, in the Bible, we have 340 questions 00:09:34.559 --> 00:09:38.320 that Jesus asked in the Gospels and Acts. And 00:09:38.320 --> 00:09:42.200 in Paul's letters, there's 262. Wow. There's 00:09:42.200 --> 00:09:45.720 something powerful about questions. I had one 00:09:45.720 --> 00:09:48.159 set of parents do something. I don't know if 00:09:48.159 --> 00:09:49.960 they got it from a counselor, but it was very, 00:09:50.019 --> 00:09:52.419 very effective because there was a lot of resistance 00:09:52.419 --> 00:09:54.440 and there was a lot of, are you going to try 00:09:54.440 --> 00:09:56.879 and talk me out of this? And the parents said, 00:09:57.000 --> 00:10:01.649 can we have scheduled each week? an hour of safe 00:10:01.649 --> 00:10:04.830 space. Wow. It's just a safe space. I get to 00:10:04.830 --> 00:10:07.889 ask you anything. You can ask me anything. I'm 00:10:07.889 --> 00:10:11.169 not going to try to convince you, but I really 00:10:11.169 --> 00:10:14.370 want to understand it's just a safe time. And 00:10:14.370 --> 00:10:17.350 it was like, what's the logic behind this? And 00:10:17.350 --> 00:10:19.570 if this is true, what does this have to do with 00:10:19.570 --> 00:10:22.110 Jesus and your faith? And it was really interesting 00:10:22.110 --> 00:10:26.049 that that built a level of understanding. That 00:10:26.049 --> 00:10:29.009 doesn't mean everything is great. But it really 00:10:29.009 --> 00:10:33.509 did allow a sense of being honored. I care. I 00:10:33.509 --> 00:10:37.090 respect you. But Sean, what do you say to that 00:10:37.090 --> 00:10:40.309 parent? I have done that. That's the journey 00:10:40.309 --> 00:10:44.730 that we're on. But I have a fairly hostile, maybe 00:10:44.730 --> 00:10:47.710 even a bit militant son or daughter that basically 00:10:47.710 --> 00:10:51.590 says, look, I'm gay. I'm trans. This is who I 00:10:51.590 --> 00:10:54.269 am. If you don't accept me, you don't love me. 00:10:54.350 --> 00:10:58.110 You're wrong. And you're out of my life. And 00:10:58.110 --> 00:11:00.649 now you see parents at a real crossroads where 00:11:00.649 --> 00:11:05.149 either they don't know what to do, or they assume 00:11:05.149 --> 00:11:07.230 all the blame. And I've seen a lot of parents 00:11:07.230 --> 00:11:11.409 change their theology based on the response of 00:11:11.409 --> 00:11:14.990 their children, or they've returned kind of anger 00:11:14.990 --> 00:11:18.169 for anger, and you just have this great divide. 00:11:18.950 --> 00:11:22.490 How do you maintain that biblical fidelity? I'd 00:11:22.490 --> 00:11:25.539 like to say it's only a few. There are Thousands 00:11:25.539 --> 00:11:27.460 and thousands of people in the midst of this 00:11:27.460 --> 00:11:30.000 right now. So I appreciate that you said maintain 00:11:30.000 --> 00:11:34.820 your theology. I have been to affirming conferences. 00:11:35.059 --> 00:11:39.659 I've read almost all of the books. And behind 00:11:39.659 --> 00:11:42.799 almost all the stories, there's almost always 00:11:42.799 --> 00:11:46.299 a relationship that is there. My son came out 00:11:46.299 --> 00:11:50.450 as gay. My sister came out as a lesbian. my spouse, 00:11:50.690 --> 00:11:54.230 my fill in the blank. And pardon me, on a human 00:11:54.230 --> 00:11:57.149 level, like I get it. These are people we love 00:11:57.149 --> 00:11:59.889 and we care for and we've sacrificed for. And 00:11:59.889 --> 00:12:02.210 I know so many moms and dads are like, I just 00:12:02.210 --> 00:12:04.710 want to be in a relationship with my kid. It 00:12:04.710 --> 00:12:09.429 pains me. But Jesus is really clear in John 14, 00:12:09.529 --> 00:12:14.350 if you love me, you'll obey my commands. From 00:12:14.350 --> 00:12:18.210 Genesis to the end. The Bible's very clear that 00:12:18.210 --> 00:12:21.250 God's design for sex and marriage is one man 00:12:21.250 --> 00:12:25.629 and one woman, one flesh, one lifetime. And so 00:12:25.629 --> 00:12:29.289 it might not feel like it in the moment, but 00:12:29.289 --> 00:12:34.250 holding firm to what the Bible teaches is the 00:12:34.250 --> 00:12:37.970 loving thing to do. Absolutely, it's a loving 00:12:37.970 --> 00:12:39.870 thing to do. Now, how you navigate the relationships 00:12:39.870 --> 00:12:41.809 and when it means to share that knot, that's 00:12:41.809 --> 00:12:44.629 where wisdom comes in. But my first thing to 00:12:44.629 --> 00:12:46.409 say to parents is time out. If you're tempted 00:12:46.409 --> 00:12:50.049 to compromise your theology, that is not biblical. 00:12:50.210 --> 00:12:54.009 That is not loving. That is really not helpful 00:12:54.009 --> 00:12:57.389 when it's all said and done. One value of now 00:12:57.389 --> 00:13:01.149 doing ministry for 40 years is I've watched multiple 00:13:01.149 --> 00:13:04.090 times where people, quote, cave in, change their 00:13:04.090 --> 00:13:07.950 theology. It's okay. Yeah. And in the short term, 00:13:08.070 --> 00:13:13.269 it provides relief. In the long term. It provides 00:13:13.269 --> 00:13:18.850 pain and regret and devastation and hurt. And 00:13:18.850 --> 00:13:21.350 what parents don't seem to be able to get is 00:13:21.350 --> 00:13:25.350 there are times where our loyalty is challenged. 00:13:25.769 --> 00:13:30.090 And is our loyalty to Jesus higher than our loyalty 00:13:30.090 --> 00:13:34.950 to a son, a daughter, or a mate even? I've sat 00:13:34.950 --> 00:13:37.850 with people who, you know, my brother came out. 00:13:38.120 --> 00:13:40.320 My brothers and sisters, my parents now have 00:13:40.320 --> 00:13:42.919 changed their theology. I'm the outlier now. 00:13:43.179 --> 00:13:46.460 I'm the bad person in the family who's held to 00:13:46.460 --> 00:13:49.179 a biblical ethic. I've been kind to my brother. 00:13:49.320 --> 00:13:51.899 I've reached out to my brother. But this is my 00:13:51.899 --> 00:13:55.179 world. There is a price to pay for loyalty to 00:13:55.179 --> 00:13:58.860 Jesus. It's interesting. I just providentially 00:13:58.860 --> 00:14:02.799 had a conversation yesterday with a father who's 00:14:03.210 --> 00:14:05.370 Daughter came out as gay many years ago, got 00:14:05.370 --> 00:14:08.750 married, adopted kids. Her mate became an alcoholic. 00:14:08.970 --> 00:14:12.250 That relationship didn't work out. But every 00:14:12.250 --> 00:14:15.129 time there's been a crisis, it's so interesting. 00:14:15.350 --> 00:14:18.610 She comes to the one person that has kept their 00:14:18.610 --> 00:14:22.330 convictions and loved her regardless, but was 00:14:22.330 --> 00:14:26.080 unwilling to. bend his theology or change his 00:14:26.080 --> 00:14:28.779 thinking. So he's been sort of the bad person 00:14:28.779 --> 00:14:32.480 in some early years, and now he's that one person 00:14:32.480 --> 00:14:35.039 you can trust. You know, when we hurt really 00:14:35.039 --> 00:14:37.840 badly, we're looking for someone that we can 00:14:37.840 --> 00:14:41.059 really trust who doesn't kind of blow with the 00:14:41.059 --> 00:14:43.779 wind in terms of their view of things. Any words 00:14:43.779 --> 00:14:46.980 of wisdom for that person who's taking a stand 00:14:46.980 --> 00:14:51.460 and really struggling with maintaining it? Oh, 00:14:51.480 --> 00:14:54.500 gosh. First off, I would just say I get it. I 00:14:54.500 --> 00:14:57.980 understand because of what's at stake. I would 00:14:57.980 --> 00:15:01.139 find solace in other believers who are doing 00:15:01.139 --> 00:15:03.600 the same thing. Sometimes we feel like when we're 00:15:03.600 --> 00:15:08.940 doing stuff alone, it's just so painful. But 00:15:08.940 --> 00:15:12.519 one of my encouragements to really to anybody. 00:15:13.309 --> 00:15:16.269 who is experiencing same -sex attraction, doesn't 00:15:16.269 --> 00:15:18.450 know how to navigate this, is to point towards 00:15:18.450 --> 00:15:23.389 people who are faithfully following Jesus, whether 00:15:23.389 --> 00:15:27.190 as singles or as married to somebody of the opposite 00:15:27.190 --> 00:15:32.049 sex. People like Christopher Yuan, Sam Albury, 00:15:32.269 --> 00:15:35.429 Rachel Gilson. I mean, I could go on and on with 00:15:35.429 --> 00:15:37.549 people who've been open about same -sex attraction 00:15:37.549 --> 00:15:40.149 saying, I didn't choose this. I don't exactly 00:15:40.149 --> 00:15:43.159 know why. It's part of my experience of life, 00:15:43.320 --> 00:15:46.539 but I'm going to stay faithful and still follow 00:15:46.539 --> 00:15:50.240 Jesus. Those are examples I want to point to 00:15:50.240 --> 00:15:53.139 who doesn't know that they can do this faithfully. 00:15:53.720 --> 00:15:57.220 Now, if I may, to your question before, the parent 00:15:57.220 --> 00:15:59.700 who's struggling with a kid who just says, if 00:15:59.700 --> 00:16:02.799 you don't affirm, you're out. And I've had these 00:16:02.799 --> 00:16:06.840 conversations. I think my principle is I want 00:16:06.840 --> 00:16:09.000 to be in my life. And I'm not saying I always 00:16:09.000 --> 00:16:10.960 do this, Chip. This is my principle I strive 00:16:10.960 --> 00:16:15.240 for. I want to be as gracious as I can be without 00:16:15.240 --> 00:16:19.000 violating scripture or my conscience before the 00:16:19.000 --> 00:16:23.480 Lord. So this parent just has to ask, what hills 00:16:23.480 --> 00:16:28.039 am I dying on and why? Am I being as gracious 00:16:28.039 --> 00:16:31.000 as I can be towards my child? So as painful as 00:16:31.000 --> 00:16:34.539 it is, I can put my head on my pillow at night 00:16:34.539 --> 00:16:37.779 and just say, God, I trust you. I'm acting a 00:16:37.779 --> 00:16:40.679 way that I think is loving, but I'm sticking 00:16:40.679 --> 00:16:44.100 with what your word says is true. And sometimes 00:16:44.100 --> 00:16:46.899 I've seen parents die on the wrong hills. Yes. 00:16:47.059 --> 00:16:50.139 We won't even meet my son and his boyfriend for 00:16:50.139 --> 00:16:51.740 dinner because I don't want to affirm that. I'm 00:16:51.740 --> 00:16:53.980 like, you know, for me, I don't think having 00:16:53.980 --> 00:16:56.460 dinner with somebody means you're affirming that. 00:16:56.980 --> 00:17:00.149 I wouldn't interpret it that way. Staying overnight 00:17:00.149 --> 00:17:02.450 in the same room in your home. Now we're getting 00:17:02.450 --> 00:17:05.009 a lot closer to hills that I would die on and 00:17:05.009 --> 00:17:06.990 you've got to figure out what they are. Right. 00:17:07.230 --> 00:17:09.490 Really what happens in a lot of these circumstances 00:17:09.490 --> 00:17:13.269 is it just causes a lot of soul searching and 00:17:13.269 --> 00:17:16.930 it's painful for parents. And sometimes it can 00:17:16.930 --> 00:17:19.670 service our own insecurities and our weaknesses. 00:17:20.859 --> 00:17:23.579 And I just encourage parents to go before the 00:17:23.579 --> 00:17:25.940 Lord and say, help me be as gracious as I can 00:17:25.940 --> 00:17:29.279 be. Die on the right hills and just love my child 00:17:29.279 --> 00:17:32.000 through this. Well, every situation certainly 00:17:32.000 --> 00:17:35.140 has its own dynamic. And the reality is you need 00:17:35.140 --> 00:17:37.920 to have a conviction from God's word and the 00:17:37.920 --> 00:17:40.500 Holy Spirit that you're standing on, not what 00:17:40.500 --> 00:17:43.299 so -and -so thinks. Because at the end of the 00:17:43.299 --> 00:17:45.880 day, we all have this moment where we stand before 00:17:45.880 --> 00:17:50.119 God on. What did we do with all the things that 00:17:50.119 --> 00:17:52.519 came in our life? And we need to make those on 00:17:52.519 --> 00:17:55.579 the basis of what our convictions are before 00:17:55.579 --> 00:17:58.740 the Lord. Shifting a little bit, let's say a 00:17:58.740 --> 00:18:01.599 kid goes to a really good Bible teaching church, 00:18:01.720 --> 00:18:05.279 and they've heard this is what's true, marriage 00:18:05.279 --> 00:18:08.339 is one man, one woman, but they personally start 00:18:08.339 --> 00:18:10.940 questioning some things, and they start going 00:18:10.940 --> 00:18:16.200 down a path. It seems to me that those kind of 00:18:16.200 --> 00:18:19.220 kids with those kind of struggles have a very 00:18:19.220 --> 00:18:22.559 difficult time unless the church and parents 00:18:22.559 --> 00:18:27.539 and youth leaders have a sensitivity to creating 00:18:27.539 --> 00:18:30.400 some safe environments where they can have conversations 00:18:30.400 --> 00:18:33.539 that honestly can be of great help. But if it's 00:18:33.539 --> 00:18:36.359 not safe, they can get pretty hardened in their 00:18:36.359 --> 00:18:38.640 views thinking, well, I know I'm going to be 00:18:38.640 --> 00:18:42.079 rejected. And so what do you say to maybe churches 00:18:42.079 --> 00:18:46.579 or youth pastors or even parents about a culture 00:18:46.579 --> 00:18:51.440 where instead of this one event that a bomb's 00:18:51.440 --> 00:18:54.400 ready to explode inside of a kid's heart, you 00:18:54.400 --> 00:18:57.500 create a world where the beginning doubts could 00:18:57.500 --> 00:18:59.799 be addressed and open conversations could be 00:18:59.799 --> 00:19:01.819 had? I think there's some overlap, but it can 00:19:01.819 --> 00:19:04.420 also look different in a church than it can in 00:19:04.420 --> 00:19:07.809 the home. Yeah. I've done pretty extensive research 00:19:07.809 --> 00:19:11.289 on the studies of why kids leave the faith or 00:19:11.289 --> 00:19:14.289 the church that they're raised in. And there 00:19:14.289 --> 00:19:17.230 was a study, it's about a decade old now, Oxford 00:19:17.230 --> 00:19:20.430 University Press book, Faith and Families by 00:19:20.430 --> 00:19:24.630 a USC professor, Vern Bengston. It was with 3 00:19:24.630 --> 00:19:29.829 ,500 people, 35 years, four generations. And 00:19:29.829 --> 00:19:32.529 they said the number one factor on kid adopting 00:19:32.529 --> 00:19:36.309 the faith of his family and his parents, regardless 00:19:36.309 --> 00:19:40.589 of what that faith is, is a quote, warm relationship 00:19:40.589 --> 00:19:44.609 with the father. And when you hear like warm 00:19:44.609 --> 00:19:46.970 relationship in a scholarly book, I was like, 00:19:47.069 --> 00:19:48.650 what do you mean warm relationship? It means 00:19:48.650 --> 00:19:52.509 a sense of intimacy and closeness. That starts 00:19:52.509 --> 00:19:58.049 on day one. And so long before this kid is wrestling 00:19:58.049 --> 00:20:02.130 with issues of sexuality or their beliefs about 00:20:02.130 --> 00:20:06.369 it, am I spending time with my kids? Am I listening 00:20:06.369 --> 00:20:08.950 to them? Am I building a closeness with them? 00:20:09.529 --> 00:20:12.670 That's number one. And then just create a culture 00:20:12.670 --> 00:20:14.569 in your home where you can talk about stuff. 00:20:14.970 --> 00:20:17.750 One of the brilliant things my dad did, Chip, 00:20:17.789 --> 00:20:22.509 is he had practiced how he would respond if myself 00:20:22.509 --> 00:20:25.890 or my three sisters said, dad, I'm gay, dad, 00:20:26.009 --> 00:20:27.869 I'm pregnant, dad, I'm dropping out of school, 00:20:28.029 --> 00:20:31.109 whatever it is. And he had just practiced his 00:20:31.109 --> 00:20:34.630 response ahead of time and built relationships 00:20:34.630 --> 00:20:38.349 with us, anticipating if something like that 00:20:38.349 --> 00:20:40.230 happened, he could respond with grace. And I 00:20:40.230 --> 00:20:43.470 thought, what great foresight. You know, the 00:20:43.470 --> 00:20:45.509 other thing in the home is if you want your kids 00:20:45.509 --> 00:20:49.069 to talk to you about this, You've got to develop 00:20:49.069 --> 00:20:51.950 kind of a talking, conversing relationship where 00:20:51.950 --> 00:20:53.950 you just talk with them about things that are 00:20:53.950 --> 00:20:57.089 important to them, talk to them about life, just 00:20:57.089 --> 00:21:00.710 talk and talk, including spiritual things. It's 00:21:00.710 --> 00:21:03.269 not a one -way conversation where I just lecture 00:21:03.269 --> 00:21:07.309 my kids. They're not going to open up to you. 00:21:07.529 --> 00:21:11.460 So build that relationship, start early. converse 00:21:11.460 --> 00:21:13.940 over the dinner table about spiritual things, 00:21:14.119 --> 00:21:17.160 but just life, movies, sports, drama, whatever 00:21:17.160 --> 00:21:20.559 the kids are into. I had a young man, this is 00:21:20.559 --> 00:21:24.200 a few years ago now, come out to me and I said, 00:21:24.259 --> 00:21:26.859 why am I the first person that you came out to? 00:21:26.960 --> 00:21:28.779 Why haven't you told your parents? And he said, 00:21:28.819 --> 00:21:30.980 I just heard some statements they made now and 00:21:30.980 --> 00:21:34.059 then that I think are homophobic. Just comments 00:21:34.059 --> 00:21:37.400 about the news, about people, about individuals. 00:21:37.619 --> 00:21:41.549 And he remembers those. So we got to watch the 00:21:41.549 --> 00:21:44.690 way we speak. You know, I've got three kids, 00:21:44.730 --> 00:21:47.190 so I'll generalize this. But over the years, 00:21:47.210 --> 00:21:49.910 I've heard my kids say terms they've picked up 00:21:49.910 --> 00:21:52.869 on the playground about someone. I go, you know, 00:21:52.869 --> 00:21:55.650 we just don't speak about people that way. They're 00:21:55.650 --> 00:22:00.089 made in God's image. Let's not use that language. 00:22:00.170 --> 00:22:03.569 God loves them just like he loves you and me. 00:22:04.360 --> 00:22:06.259 And I want to instill in my kids that if they 00:22:06.259 --> 00:22:08.140 ever are wrestling with that question, they feel 00:22:08.140 --> 00:22:10.700 like, oh, dad's got my back. So those are a few 00:22:10.700 --> 00:22:14.259 things in the home I think you can do. I'm somewhat 00:22:14.259 --> 00:22:16.240 torn, like I'm in a classroom and I want to save 00:22:16.240 --> 00:22:19.400 place, but I don't. I tell my students, come 00:22:19.400 --> 00:22:20.980 to office hours. Tell me what you think. I'll 00:22:20.980 --> 00:22:23.500 listen to you. If I disagree, I might push back, 00:22:23.599 --> 00:22:25.400 but I want to understand and have a conversation. 00:22:25.720 --> 00:22:27.440 I'm no interest in having an argument. Please 00:22:27.440 --> 00:22:29.480 come talk with me if you differ. Like I say that 00:22:29.480 --> 00:22:31.700 over and over again. But I don't want so much 00:22:31.700 --> 00:22:33.799 a safe space where I can't challenge them and 00:22:33.799 --> 00:22:35.640 make them think and make them a little uncomfortable 00:22:35.640 --> 00:22:38.000 because that's when you learn. So there's a balance 00:22:38.000 --> 00:22:40.539 there where you want some tension to learn, but 00:22:40.539 --> 00:22:43.420 you want people to know I love you and I care 00:22:43.420 --> 00:22:46.720 about you no matter what you believe when it's 00:22:46.720 --> 00:22:50.319 all said and done. In the church, churches have 00:22:50.319 --> 00:22:52.960 to have a doctrinal statement. They need to have 00:22:52.960 --> 00:22:55.819 a statement, not just on this issue, but this 00:22:55.819 --> 00:22:58.529 is one of the big issues of the day. I was reading, 00:22:58.589 --> 00:23:00.910 Chip, about someone who went to a church for 00:23:00.910 --> 00:23:03.329 a while and didn't even know what the church 00:23:03.329 --> 00:23:06.390 believed about LGBTQ issues until like two or 00:23:06.390 --> 00:23:09.609 three years into it and felt like she was kind 00:23:09.609 --> 00:23:12.089 of betrayed because they presented a certain 00:23:12.089 --> 00:23:14.450 way and didn't believe that. And I thought, you 00:23:14.450 --> 00:23:17.349 know what? We got to have a statement. The staff 00:23:17.349 --> 00:23:20.150 needs to know, like, what's our bathroom policy? 00:23:20.390 --> 00:23:22.849 What's our pronoun policy? What's our policy 00:23:22.849 --> 00:23:24.809 of going to same -sex weddings? Like, you just 00:23:24.809 --> 00:23:26.789 have to think these things through as a staff. 00:23:27.470 --> 00:23:31.369 and be on the same page about it. And the staff's 00:23:31.369 --> 00:23:32.869 going to need some training. A lot of people 00:23:32.869 --> 00:23:35.910 don't have time to work through content and learn 00:23:35.910 --> 00:23:39.410 what the Bible says and why. Most people growing 00:23:39.410 --> 00:23:41.450 up in the church know what the church believes 00:23:41.450 --> 00:23:43.789 and the Bible says, but they don't know why. 00:23:44.089 --> 00:23:47.410 They don't actually have convictions about it 00:23:47.410 --> 00:23:50.670 that run deep. So church's doctrinal statements, 00:23:50.809 --> 00:23:54.500 they need to teach on this. But why God's design 00:23:54.500 --> 00:23:58.200 for marriage is good for the world, good for 00:23:58.200 --> 00:24:03.180 society, good for kids, that why is something 00:24:03.180 --> 00:24:10.140 churches have to do. This is Living on the Edge 00:24:10.140 --> 00:24:12.440 with Chip Ingram, and you've been listening to 00:24:12.440 --> 00:24:14.640 the first half of Chip's insightful conversation 00:24:14.640 --> 00:24:17.660 with bestselling author and Christian apologist, 00:24:17.859 --> 00:24:20.650 Sean McDowell. To learn more about any of the 00:24:20.650 --> 00:24:24.109 resources you heard about today, visit livingontheedge 00:24:24.109 --> 00:24:31.009 .org. Well, as we wrap up, I want to remind you 00:24:31.009 --> 00:24:33.650 that this ministry depends on the faithful support 00:24:33.650 --> 00:24:36.769 of listeners just like you. Your generosity will 00:24:36.769 --> 00:24:39.369 help us continue to motivate Christians to really 00:24:39.369 --> 00:24:41.869 live like Christians. And right now, for those 00:24:41.869 --> 00:24:44.309 who choose to become monthly partners, we'll 00:24:44.309 --> 00:24:46.750 send you our newest resource, The Marriage That 00:24:46.750 --> 00:24:49.390 Works Truth Cards, as our way of saying thank 00:24:49.390 --> 00:24:52.650 you. To learn more, go to livingontheedge .org 00:24:52.650 --> 00:25:01.470 or call 888 - That's 888 -333 -6003 or visit 00:25:01.470 --> 00:25:05.950 livingontheedge .org. App listeners, tap donate. 00:25:06.109 --> 00:25:08.369 And thanks in advance for doing whatever the 00:25:08.369 --> 00:25:10.970 Lord leads you to do. Well, coming up on the 00:25:10.970 --> 00:25:13.470 next edition of Living on the Edge, we'll continue 00:25:13.470 --> 00:25:16.210 our series, Uninvited Guests, with the remainder 00:25:16.210 --> 00:25:19.109 of Chip's interview with Sean McDowell. But until 00:25:19.109 --> 00:25:21.170 then, I'm Dave Drewy. Thanks for listening.