The truth of the matter is that the Bible and
culture are frequently in conflict. Whether it's
about sex or relationships or gender, I mean,
there is so much confusion in our day. And parenting
a young teen or a not -so -young teen gets very
complex and very confusing. So today I've invited
a great friend who has insight into these areas
to help all of us. That's today. Welcome to this
edition of Living on the Edge with Chip Ingram.
We are an international teaching and discipleship
ministry dedicated to helping Christians worldwide
live out their faith for the glory of God and
the good of all. Well, in just a minute, we'll
continue our series, Uninvited Guests. Today,
Chip sits down with author and apologist, Sean
McDowell, as they help Christian families navigate
the chaos of today's culture. Together, they'll
empower parents with a game plan to discuss sexuality
and gender issues with their kids when those
conversations arise. Well, with all that said,
here's Chip to get us started. Well, I'm really
excited about today's program. We've done literally
five weeks on this series we've called Uninvited
Guests, recognizing and resisting the attacks
on your family. And as the family goes, the world
goes, society goes. People who love Jesus with
all their heart are finding themselves in some
really challenging times. So we've talked about
the lies that we all believe in our marriages.
And if we don't recognize what they are and address
them, things don't go in a good way. And we've
talked about all the issues around being parents.
And I think when we get down to some of the things
that our kids are experiencing, I realize there's
people that God has placed in my life and in
the body of Christ that have a lot more to say
than I do. And they work very closely with the
next generation. And as I think of parents and
grandparents and fellow pastors that listen to
the program, our goal is to serve you. Our goal
is to really help you. And some of the things
that your kids are facing, transgender issues,
mom and dad, hey, I think I'm gay. There was
a young woman came to me after one of the services.
If you're asking me to choose what the Bible
says versus giving up my friends because they're
homosexual, and of course I was telling her,
not give up your friends, but taking a stand
about what's true and loving your friends. She
just looked at me and said, well, I'm just giving
up my faith. And so my guest today is Sean McDowell.
He's a professor at Biola, author of many books.
And you're with young adults all the time. You
travel, you speak. You are much more in tune
with the culture that I am. I just know there's
a lot of people that are hurting and need help.
And that's our goal today. Well, honored to be
on. Thanks for having me back. Well, it's good
to have you with us. And let me just jump in
because what we're going to talk about is not
parents that don't go to church regularly or
families that are in crisis. There may be that.
But people that have come into my world recently
that are more committed to Christ, their marriage,
raising their kids God's way, who have had these
kind of situations. So, Sean, what do you say
to that parent when their kid says completely
out of the blue, Mom, Dad, I just want you to
know I'm gay or I'm trans now. I really believe
that I am a man trapped in a girl's body or vice
versa. That's such a great question. It's interesting
you asked this, Chip, because probably about
two or three years ago, I interviewed a lady
by the name of Ariel Scarcella, and she describes
herself as the OG lesbian YouTube content creator.
And she wanted to hear her story and see if we
could find some common ground. So I said, you
know, if you have any questions for a theology
professor who's an evangelical, I'll give you
the opportunity at the end. I had no idea what
she was going to ask me. Her one question was,
myself and many in my community would want to
know, how would you respond if one of your kids
came out as gay? And I had been thinking about
this and actually made a social media post on
it like a week or two before. And I said, my
response would be, I'd say to my son or daughter,
thanks for telling your dad. I can't imagine
how long you've been thinking about this and
wrestling with this and probably have some fear
about how your dad would respond given who I
am. positions that I hold. I want you to know
that I love you no matter what. This doesn't
change that I'm your dad, you're my son, my daughter.
I love you and we're in this together for the
long haul. Interestingly enough, she said something
in effect of, she goes, wow, that was beautiful.
When this is out, I'm going to share it with
my community. And she shared the link. Wow. Now,
one thing I would say to parents is if you haven't
responded that way and you're like, you know
what? I wish I had heard that a while ago. Give
yourself some grace. We absolutely need biblical
fidelity and we need truth. I would never question
that. But on this issue, give yourself some grace.
So if your kid comes to you and says, I'm bi,
I'm gay, I'm trans, I'm fill in the blank, your
first thought cannot be, what did I do wrong?
How did I fail him? Give yourself some grace.
I think there's a lot of reasons why we can blame
ourselves. Some could be bad theology sometimes
in the church that says, if I just do A, B, and
C as a parent, I'm going to get this product
of a kid who will follow the Lord. And that's
just bad theology. It doesn't work that way.
People have free will. It could be some of our
own sinfulness and our pride of our kids being
a certain way because they represent us. And
there can be a lot of things going on. But bottom
line is give yourself some grace. Don't blame
yourself. Just love on your kid and take a long
-term perspective and assure them early on that
you're going to stand by them and love them as
Jesus did. That's kind of step number one. As
I think back of my more current experiences,
and the very thing you described was, what did
I do wrong? My son came back from college, or
my daughter came back from school and said they're
trans or they're gay. And I'm devastated. What
happened? You know, I've walked with God. We
had family devotions. And they start going through
all the different things as a family, as though
if they would have done it perfectly, then...
Our kids are going to turn out like these wonderful,
following Jesus, they'll never have a problem.
Compassion has to be number one. It's not like
your 21 -year -old or 16 -year -old or 24 -year
-old has all of life figured out, and now they
know this is exactly who they are. They're in
a world of real confusion. and yet it doesn't
change the reality of there is truth and god's
plan for their life how do you move from the
first step of compassion not blaming yourself
or focusing inward to where do we go from here
i think the next step is just to ask a lot of
questions and to listen To highlight what you
said before, if a kid comes out to you at 12,
that's very different than one at 18 or 24 for
so many different reasons. Yes. Our authority,
they're still living in the home. There's just
different dynamics at play there. But I would
just ask a lot of questions and make sure it's
the right environment. Sometimes kids have been
thinking about this for weeks or months or years.
Yes. Sometimes parents suspect it and see it
coming. Sometimes it's just dropped out of the
blue. So it's fair to just say, you know what?
You've probably been thinking about this for
a while. This is new to me. And I think it might
take your mom and I a little bit to process and
figure out how to navigate this. And what that
looks like, I don't know what it all means, but
I know I love you. I know I'm committed to you.
I know I want to do the right thing, be the best
parent to you that I can. That's completely reasonable
to share and say, but before I say anything,
tell me, when did you first feel this way? Have
you told anybody else? How did they respond?
How did you think we were going to respond as
your parents? In your mind, just so we understand,
what do you think it looks like for us to love
you? Does this affect the way you think about
Jesus and following after him? And at the end,
your last question can be, I'm out of questions.
Is there anything I should have asked you? Is
there anything else you want to tell me? And
just affirm that we have an open door here, and
I'd love it if we stay on the same page moving
forward. I mean, I could think of 100 questions.
But I'm just going to listen and listen and try
to understand where this young person is. Because
this young person might be saying, I'm gay. And
if you don't affirm me, you're out. That's a
very different conversation than I have same
-sex attraction. I don't know to do this. And
I want to follow Jesus and follow what the Bible
says. Like that's just a very different dynamic.
And so I want to figure out where the kid is.
You know, in the Bible, we have 340 questions
that Jesus asked in the Gospels and Acts. And
in Paul's letters, there's 262. Wow. There's
something powerful about questions. I had one
set of parents do something. I don't know if
they got it from a counselor, but it was very,
very effective because there was a lot of resistance
and there was a lot of, are you going to try
and talk me out of this? And the parents said,
can we have scheduled each week? an hour of safe
space. Wow. It's just a safe space. I get to
ask you anything. You can ask me anything. I'm
not going to try to convince you, but I really
want to understand it's just a safe time. And
it was like, what's the logic behind this? And
if this is true, what does this have to do with
Jesus and your faith? And it was really interesting
that that built a level of understanding. That
doesn't mean everything is great. But it really
did allow a sense of being honored. I care. I
respect you. But Sean, what do you say to that
parent? I have done that. That's the journey
that we're on. But I have a fairly hostile, maybe
even a bit militant son or daughter that basically
says, look, I'm gay. I'm trans. This is who I
am. If you don't accept me, you don't love me.
You're wrong. And you're out of my life. And
now you see parents at a real crossroads where
either they don't know what to do, or they assume
all the blame. And I've seen a lot of parents
change their theology based on the response of
their children, or they've returned kind of anger
for anger, and you just have this great divide.
How do you maintain that biblical fidelity? I'd
like to say it's only a few. There are Thousands
and thousands of people in the midst of this
right now. So I appreciate that you said maintain
your theology. I have been to affirming conferences.
I've read almost all of the books. And behind
almost all the stories, there's almost always
a relationship that is there. My son came out
as gay. My sister came out as a lesbian. my spouse,
my fill in the blank. And pardon me, on a human
level, like I get it. These are people we love
and we care for and we've sacrificed for. And
I know so many moms and dads are like, I just
want to be in a relationship with my kid. It
pains me. But Jesus is really clear in John 14,
if you love me, you'll obey my commands. From
Genesis to the end. The Bible's very clear that
God's design for sex and marriage is one man
and one woman, one flesh, one lifetime. And so
it might not feel like it in the moment, but
holding firm to what the Bible teaches is the
loving thing to do. Absolutely, it's a loving
thing to do. Now, how you navigate the relationships
and when it means to share that knot, that's
where wisdom comes in. But my first thing to
say to parents is time out. If you're tempted
to compromise your theology, that is not biblical.
That is not loving. That is really not helpful
when it's all said and done. One value of now
doing ministry for 40 years is I've watched multiple
times where people, quote, cave in, change their
theology. It's okay. Yeah. And in the short term,
it provides relief. In the long term. It provides
pain and regret and devastation and hurt. And
what parents don't seem to be able to get is
there are times where our loyalty is challenged.
And is our loyalty to Jesus higher than our loyalty
to a son, a daughter, or a mate even? I've sat
with people who, you know, my brother came out.
My brothers and sisters, my parents now have
changed their theology. I'm the outlier now.
I'm the bad person in the family who's held to
a biblical ethic. I've been kind to my brother.
I've reached out to my brother. But this is my
world. There is a price to pay for loyalty to
Jesus. It's interesting. I just providentially
had a conversation yesterday with a father who's
Daughter came out as gay many years ago, got
married, adopted kids. Her mate became an alcoholic.
That relationship didn't work out. But every
time there's been a crisis, it's so interesting.
She comes to the one person that has kept their
convictions and loved her regardless, but was
unwilling to. bend his theology or change his
thinking. So he's been sort of the bad person
in some early years, and now he's that one person
you can trust. You know, when we hurt really
badly, we're looking for someone that we can
really trust who doesn't kind of blow with the
wind in terms of their view of things. Any words
of wisdom for that person who's taking a stand
and really struggling with maintaining it? Oh,
gosh. First off, I would just say I get it. I
understand because of what's at stake. I would
find solace in other believers who are doing
the same thing. Sometimes we feel like when we're
doing stuff alone, it's just so painful. But
one of my encouragements to really to anybody.
who is experiencing same -sex attraction, doesn't
know how to navigate this, is to point towards
people who are faithfully following Jesus, whether
as singles or as married to somebody of the opposite
sex. People like Christopher Yuan, Sam Albury,
Rachel Gilson. I mean, I could go on and on with
people who've been open about same -sex attraction
saying, I didn't choose this. I don't exactly
know why. It's part of my experience of life,
but I'm going to stay faithful and still follow
Jesus. Those are examples I want to point to
who doesn't know that they can do this faithfully.
Now, if I may, to your question before, the parent
who's struggling with a kid who just says, if
you don't affirm, you're out. And I've had these
conversations. I think my principle is I want
to be in my life. And I'm not saying I always
do this, Chip. This is my principle I strive
for. I want to be as gracious as I can be without
violating scripture or my conscience before the
Lord. So this parent just has to ask, what hills
am I dying on and why? Am I being as gracious
as I can be towards my child? So as painful as
it is, I can put my head on my pillow at night
and just say, God, I trust you. I'm acting a
way that I think is loving, but I'm sticking
with what your word says is true. And sometimes
I've seen parents die on the wrong hills. Yes.
We won't even meet my son and his boyfriend for
dinner because I don't want to affirm that. I'm
like, you know, for me, I don't think having
dinner with somebody means you're affirming that.
I wouldn't interpret it that way. Staying overnight
in the same room in your home. Now we're getting
a lot closer to hills that I would die on and
you've got to figure out what they are. Right.
Really what happens in a lot of these circumstances
is it just causes a lot of soul searching and
it's painful for parents. And sometimes it can
service our own insecurities and our weaknesses.
And I just encourage parents to go before the
Lord and say, help me be as gracious as I can
be. Die on the right hills and just love my child
through this. Well, every situation certainly
has its own dynamic. And the reality is you need
to have a conviction from God's word and the
Holy Spirit that you're standing on, not what
so -and -so thinks. Because at the end of the
day, we all have this moment where we stand before
God on. What did we do with all the things that
came in our life? And we need to make those on
the basis of what our convictions are before
the Lord. Shifting a little bit, let's say a
kid goes to a really good Bible teaching church,
and they've heard this is what's true, marriage
is one man, one woman, but they personally start
questioning some things, and they start going
down a path. It seems to me that those kind of
kids with those kind of struggles have a very
difficult time unless the church and parents
and youth leaders have a sensitivity to creating
some safe environments where they can have conversations
that honestly can be of great help. But if it's
not safe, they can get pretty hardened in their
views thinking, well, I know I'm going to be
rejected. And so what do you say to maybe churches
or youth pastors or even parents about a culture
where instead of this one event that a bomb's
ready to explode inside of a kid's heart, you
create a world where the beginning doubts could
be addressed and open conversations could be
had? I think there's some overlap, but it can
also look different in a church than it can in
the home. Yeah. I've done pretty extensive research
on the studies of why kids leave the faith or
the church that they're raised in. And there
was a study, it's about a decade old now, Oxford
University Press book, Faith and Families by
a USC professor, Vern Bengston. It was with 3
,500 people, 35 years, four generations. And
they said the number one factor on kid adopting
the faith of his family and his parents, regardless
of what that faith is, is a quote, warm relationship
with the father. And when you hear like warm
relationship in a scholarly book, I was like,
what do you mean warm relationship? It means
a sense of intimacy and closeness. That starts
on day one. And so long before this kid is wrestling
with issues of sexuality or their beliefs about
it, am I spending time with my kids? Am I listening
to them? Am I building a closeness with them?
That's number one. And then just create a culture
in your home where you can talk about stuff.
One of the brilliant things my dad did, Chip,
is he had practiced how he would respond if myself
or my three sisters said, dad, I'm gay, dad,
I'm pregnant, dad, I'm dropping out of school,
whatever it is. And he had just practiced his
response ahead of time and built relationships
with us, anticipating if something like that
happened, he could respond with grace. And I
thought, what great foresight. You know, the
other thing in the home is if you want your kids
to talk to you about this, You've got to develop
kind of a talking, conversing relationship where
you just talk with them about things that are
important to them, talk to them about life, just
talk and talk, including spiritual things. It's
not a one -way conversation where I just lecture
my kids. They're not going to open up to you.
So build that relationship, start early. converse
over the dinner table about spiritual things,
but just life, movies, sports, drama, whatever
the kids are into. I had a young man, this is
a few years ago now, come out to me and I said,
why am I the first person that you came out to?
Why haven't you told your parents? And he said,
I just heard some statements they made now and
then that I think are homophobic. Just comments
about the news, about people, about individuals.
And he remembers those. So we got to watch the
way we speak. You know, I've got three kids,
so I'll generalize this. But over the years,
I've heard my kids say terms they've picked up
on the playground about someone. I go, you know,
we just don't speak about people that way. They're
made in God's image. Let's not use that language.
God loves them just like he loves you and me.
And I want to instill in my kids that if they
ever are wrestling with that question, they feel
like, oh, dad's got my back. So those are a few
things in the home I think you can do. I'm somewhat
torn, like I'm in a classroom and I want to save
place, but I don't. I tell my students, come
to office hours. Tell me what you think. I'll
listen to you. If I disagree, I might push back,
but I want to understand and have a conversation.
I'm no interest in having an argument. Please
come talk with me if you differ. Like I say that
over and over again. But I don't want so much
a safe space where I can't challenge them and
make them think and make them a little uncomfortable
because that's when you learn. So there's a balance
there where you want some tension to learn, but
you want people to know I love you and I care
about you no matter what you believe when it's
all said and done. In the church, churches have
to have a doctrinal statement. They need to have
a statement, not just on this issue, but this
is one of the big issues of the day. I was reading,
Chip, about someone who went to a church for
a while and didn't even know what the church
believed about LGBTQ issues until like two or
three years into it and felt like she was kind
of betrayed because they presented a certain
way and didn't believe that. And I thought, you
know what? We got to have a statement. The staff
needs to know, like, what's our bathroom policy?
What's our pronoun policy? What's our policy
of going to same -sex weddings? Like, you just
have to think these things through as a staff.
and be on the same page about it. And the staff's
going to need some training. A lot of people
don't have time to work through content and learn
what the Bible says and why. Most people growing
up in the church know what the church believes
and the Bible says, but they don't know why.
They don't actually have convictions about it
that run deep. So church's doctrinal statements,
they need to teach on this. But why God's design
for marriage is good for the world, good for
society, good for kids, that why is something
churches have to do. This is Living on the Edge
with Chip Ingram, and you've been listening to
the first half of Chip's insightful conversation
with bestselling author and Christian apologist,
Sean McDowell. To learn more about any of the
resources you heard about today, visit livingontheedge
.org. Well, as we wrap up, I want to remind you
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And thanks in advance for doing whatever the
Lord leads you to do. Well, coming up on the
next edition of Living on the Edge, we'll continue
our series, Uninvited Guests, with the remainder
of Chip's interview with Sean McDowell. But until
then, I'm Dave Drewy. Thanks for listening.