WEBVTT 00:00:01.290 --> 00:00:05.129 You've heard me say over and over that God uses 00:00:05.129 --> 00:00:09.429 ordinary people to do extraordinary things. Years 00:00:09.429 --> 00:00:12.830 ago, I wrote a book called Holy Ambition, and 00:00:12.830 --> 00:00:15.750 a young woman believed that that could actually 00:00:15.750 --> 00:00:18.390 be her. We're going to hear from Jenny Allen 00:00:18.390 --> 00:00:22.629 today and learn how the IF gathering, impacting 00:00:22.629 --> 00:00:25.750 millions of women around the world, came to be. 00:00:30.730 --> 00:00:33.250 Welcome to this edition of Living on the Edge 00:00:33.250 --> 00:00:36.590 with Chip Ingram. We are an international discipleship 00:00:36.590 --> 00:00:39.109 ministry devoted to helping Christians worldwide 00:00:39.109 --> 00:00:42.070 live out their faith for the glory of God and 00:00:42.070 --> 00:00:44.530 the benefit of all people. Thanks for being with 00:00:44.530 --> 00:00:47.109 us as we have a special treat for you. In just 00:00:47.109 --> 00:00:49.289 a minute, we'll revisit Chip's insightful interview 00:00:49.289 --> 00:00:52.369 with author and speaker Jenny Allen. Now, you 00:00:52.369 --> 00:00:55.090 may recognize her name from her popular IF gathering 00:00:55.090 --> 00:00:57.929 events attended by tens of thousands of women 00:00:57.929 --> 00:01:00.509 worldwide every year. Today, you'll hear her 00:01:00.509 --> 00:01:02.950 story specifically about a significant season 00:01:02.950 --> 00:01:04.829 of her life that launched her into ministry. 00:01:05.189 --> 00:01:07.709 So without further delay, here's Chip to introduce 00:01:07.709 --> 00:01:12.390 his guest. Well, welcome. Jenny Allen here. It's 00:01:12.390 --> 00:01:15.989 a special time that I get to interview you. And 00:01:15.989 --> 00:01:19.689 we have something in common in that almost 20 00:01:19.689 --> 00:01:23.069 years ago, I wrote a book called The Holy Ambition. 00:01:23.150 --> 00:01:26.670 And actually, before I wrote that book, your 00:01:26.670 --> 00:01:29.079 husband told me, I think it was on like... those 00:01:29.079 --> 00:01:32.099 cassettes or something like that, you know, a 00:01:32.099 --> 00:01:36.239 million years ago. And, you know, part of our 00:01:36.239 --> 00:01:39.299 journey is kind of going back and hearing, you 00:01:39.299 --> 00:01:42.019 know, holy ambition is how God takes dreams that 00:01:42.019 --> 00:01:45.040 he puts in our heart and that process of turning 00:01:45.040 --> 00:01:47.859 them into reality. So I would just, when did 00:01:47.859 --> 00:01:50.000 you first hear about holy ambition and maybe 00:01:50.000 --> 00:01:51.819 what kind of impact did it have on your life? 00:01:52.969 --> 00:01:55.450 So I look back, I'm going to back up just a little 00:01:55.450 --> 00:01:58.510 bit so that you hear the context of when I found 00:01:58.510 --> 00:02:00.810 holy ambition and what it did for me. I look 00:02:00.810 --> 00:02:03.430 back at my life and I was a good church girl. 00:02:03.530 --> 00:02:07.269 I pretty much obeyed my parents. I only tested 00:02:07.269 --> 00:02:10.629 that, you know, so far and largely was a good 00:02:10.629 --> 00:02:13.310 kid and would have said the whole time I was 00:02:13.310 --> 00:02:15.849 a child that I was a Christian, but really didn't 00:02:15.849 --> 00:02:17.710 come into saving knowledge of faith until I was 00:02:17.710 --> 00:02:22.039 17. When I was 17 and I met Jesus, it was a zealot 00:02:22.039 --> 00:02:26.599 was born. Like I was Paul. I couldn't not talk 00:02:26.599 --> 00:02:28.460 about Jesus. I talked about him to everybody. 00:02:29.039 --> 00:02:31.219 in my life. And they were completely annoyed. 00:02:31.360 --> 00:02:33.300 They were like, you really are out of control. 00:02:33.780 --> 00:02:36.900 And, and so I actually, because it was so obnoxious, 00:02:36.900 --> 00:02:38.800 I just found, and I didn't have a model for this. 00:02:38.900 --> 00:02:41.539 I found some younger girls to teach the Bible 00:02:41.539 --> 00:02:43.620 to, and I taught the book of revelation, which 00:02:43.620 --> 00:02:45.699 don't recommend as a brand new believer as a 00:02:45.699 --> 00:02:48.860 17 year old knew nothing. Um, I don't think I 00:02:48.860 --> 00:02:50.719 knew how to use a commentary. Didn't even know 00:02:50.719 --> 00:02:52.900 those existed. Just opened my Bible and started 00:02:52.900 --> 00:02:54.629 from the beginning and thought. I'm going to 00:02:54.629 --> 00:02:56.710 teach you girls what this is. And who knows what 00:02:56.710 --> 00:02:59.349 I said, but we had a ball. They loved God more 00:02:59.349 --> 00:03:01.949 because of it. And I went on from there to continue 00:03:01.949 --> 00:03:05.650 discipling girls and to teach the Bible. Again, 00:03:05.750 --> 00:03:08.569 no models for this. Just, I had to talk about 00:03:08.569 --> 00:03:11.509 it and it wasn't going well, you know, in my 00:03:11.509 --> 00:03:14.310 sports teams and friends. So I was like, I just 00:03:14.310 --> 00:03:15.949 need to find somebody that wants to learn and 00:03:15.949 --> 00:03:17.990 wants to know God. Like I know and love God. 00:03:18.669 --> 00:03:20.550 So that was just me. I was just a zealot. And 00:03:20.550 --> 00:03:23.490 I have teaching gifts and leadership gifts and 00:03:23.490 --> 00:03:26.509 I'm a visionary. So all these very big gifts, 00:03:26.610 --> 00:03:32.669 big personality, big passion. And I'm a girl 00:03:32.669 --> 00:03:35.430 in a very conservative Southern church that was 00:03:35.430 --> 00:03:39.909 pretty healthy, but definitely didn't see women 00:03:39.909 --> 00:03:44.090 that had those gifts. So I didn't know what to 00:03:44.090 --> 00:03:46.169 do with those gifts. I certainly would have told 00:03:46.169 --> 00:03:48.770 you at that age that. that there probably wasn't 00:03:48.770 --> 00:03:50.909 anything else for me to do with those gifts than 00:03:50.909 --> 00:03:54.150 to just lead a room full of people and teaching 00:03:54.150 --> 00:03:57.110 the Bible, which was awesome. And I did for 15 00:03:57.110 --> 00:04:00.270 years. That was really how I spent the next 15 00:04:00.270 --> 00:04:01.830 years of my life. I always just had a living 00:04:01.830 --> 00:04:04.449 room full of people, different ages that I was 00:04:04.449 --> 00:04:09.469 discipling. And so, you know, but it kept growing. 00:04:09.569 --> 00:04:11.650 And then, you know, that visionary part of me, 00:04:11.689 --> 00:04:15.259 I would have ideas. I would have really big ideas. 00:04:15.360 --> 00:04:17.480 I hated how big they were because I didn't feel 00:04:17.480 --> 00:04:19.600 like women were supposed to do certain things. 00:04:19.720 --> 00:04:24.160 And I didn't know, as a young mom who didn't 00:04:24.160 --> 00:04:26.600 work and felt convicted about that, I didn't 00:04:26.600 --> 00:04:30.259 think I could do those things part -time. I didn't 00:04:30.259 --> 00:04:33.180 have a context of what God was birthing in me. 00:04:33.220 --> 00:04:36.519 Not to mention at the time, Zach was kind of 00:04:36.519 --> 00:04:38.500 in agreement. We were surviving. He was in ministry. 00:04:38.639 --> 00:04:41.209 He was in youth ministry. I was supporting him. 00:04:41.290 --> 00:04:44.069 It was a hard job. We were having kids in our 00:04:44.069 --> 00:04:46.949 home all the time. And we had young kids that 00:04:46.949 --> 00:04:50.449 needed to eat and, you know, grow up. So that's 00:04:50.449 --> 00:04:52.790 about the time that Holy Ambition came into both 00:04:52.790 --> 00:04:55.029 of our lives. But we're both visionaries. We're 00:04:55.029 --> 00:04:57.550 both directional leaders. And we both have a 00:04:57.550 --> 00:04:59.790 lot of capacity. And we were in a little bitty 00:04:59.790 --> 00:05:03.370 town in Cleburne, Texas. And we listened to your 00:05:03.370 --> 00:05:06.860 radio show. We loved your radio show. And so 00:05:06.860 --> 00:05:08.939 you were in large part discipling us and we heard 00:05:08.939 --> 00:05:12.779 about Holy Ambition in that way. And so we ordered 00:05:12.779 --> 00:05:14.779 it. I don't know how we got it, but again, I 00:05:14.779 --> 00:05:16.540 remember the box and it was this little thing 00:05:16.540 --> 00:05:18.759 you popped open with six cassette tapes or so. 00:05:18.860 --> 00:05:21.519 Yeah, so you got it. And so we were actually 00:05:21.519 --> 00:05:23.480 starting seminary around that time and we were 00:05:23.480 --> 00:05:25.779 driving into town and my husband was at a place 00:05:25.779 --> 00:05:27.639 where he was like, yes, you're teaching a lot. 00:05:27.759 --> 00:05:29.839 I would love for you to take classes. We were 00:05:29.839 --> 00:05:32.740 prioritizing that. So we're doing seminary and 00:05:32.740 --> 00:05:34.680 we're listening to this when we would drive into 00:05:34.680 --> 00:05:37.899 class. Well, it blew my mind. It blew his mind 00:05:37.899 --> 00:05:40.879 too. But how it changed my mind was, wow, I have 00:05:40.879 --> 00:05:43.860 been terrified of the dreams God's put in me. 00:05:43.939 --> 00:05:48.319 I have completely boxed in my gifts and how I 00:05:48.319 --> 00:05:52.360 think I should be using them. And even the sermon 00:05:52.360 --> 00:05:55.740 series made me uncomfortable. Holy ambition. 00:05:56.040 --> 00:05:59.639 I thought that word was evil. I was scared of 00:05:59.639 --> 00:06:02.269 it. I didn't want to, I didn't want to act like 00:06:02.269 --> 00:06:05.509 I was a big deal. I didn't want to seem presumptuous. 00:06:05.509 --> 00:06:07.290 We're in this little bitty Bible church and a 00:06:07.290 --> 00:06:09.750 little bitty town, and I was already too much 00:06:09.750 --> 00:06:13.329 for everybody. So, so I was so curious, but I 00:06:13.329 --> 00:06:15.870 was afraid to believe that God could do more 00:06:15.870 --> 00:06:17.709 with me because I was afraid of what that would 00:06:17.709 --> 00:06:19.870 mean and what that would cost. Well, let me pause 00:06:19.870 --> 00:06:22.110 for a second, because what I can tell you is 00:06:22.110 --> 00:06:27.490 for whoever and how many ever listened to what 00:06:27.490 --> 00:06:30.550 you just said. They're everywhere and they feel 00:06:30.550 --> 00:06:34.790 the same way. I was in a tiny little town in 00:06:34.790 --> 00:06:37.930 Texas myself in our first pastorate. And I had 00:06:37.930 --> 00:06:40.990 these thoughts and these dreams. And I would 00:06:40.990 --> 00:06:43.490 just, it was like I would wake up in a cold sweat 00:06:43.490 --> 00:06:45.790 thinking, you're the most arrogant person in 00:06:45.790 --> 00:06:48.290 the world. How could you ever think that, Chip? 00:06:48.870 --> 00:06:52.589 And yet, you know, I pray and say, oh, but God, 00:06:52.769 --> 00:06:56.110 I just, I see what could happen. And all of a 00:06:56.110 --> 00:06:58.990 sudden I started looking at. You know, most of 00:06:58.990 --> 00:07:01.370 these people in the Bible, before they got in 00:07:01.370 --> 00:07:04.730 stained glass, they were like really regular, 00:07:04.970 --> 00:07:10.370 pretty broken, ordinary. And that was the turning 00:07:10.370 --> 00:07:14.589 point. And I just, you know, and me, same here, 00:07:14.769 --> 00:07:17.470 because I've always been ambitious. God had to 00:07:17.470 --> 00:07:21.829 do something to get a holy ambition. And there 00:07:21.829 --> 00:07:24.610 is a fine line there, isn't there? You know, 00:07:24.610 --> 00:07:28.620 it's easy to make it about yourself. While that 00:07:28.620 --> 00:07:30.459 sermon series was a turning point for me, all 00:07:30.459 --> 00:07:32.720 that that gave me the permission to do is just 00:07:32.720 --> 00:07:36.339 obey God. So to hear what God was was leading 00:07:36.339 --> 00:07:38.180 me to or to see, you know, this is the direction 00:07:38.180 --> 00:07:42.259 he's he's going and to submit to my elders and 00:07:42.259 --> 00:07:43.980 to submit to my husband. Right. So I had these 00:07:43.980 --> 00:07:46.819 coverings that were protective. But I remember 00:07:46.819 --> 00:07:49.259 visualizing myself and I thought when I get to 00:07:49.259 --> 00:07:51.670 heaven. I'm going to be that thoroughbred that 00:07:51.670 --> 00:07:53.889 finally got a field. I'm going to be the, cause 00:07:53.889 --> 00:07:55.730 I was kind of in a stall. I felt like I was like 00:07:55.730 --> 00:07:58.250 doing the rope thing and like walking the circle. 00:07:58.490 --> 00:08:00.490 And I was, I was fine. And I was like, you know 00:08:00.490 --> 00:08:03.310 what? I love what I do and I love people and 00:08:03.310 --> 00:08:04.970 I've got people to disciple and I'm just going 00:08:04.970 --> 00:08:08.389 to do that till Jesus comes or I go home. So 00:08:08.389 --> 00:08:12.610 I was fine. But I always had this feeling that 00:08:12.610 --> 00:08:15.029 if I, if the gate opened and I ran, I would be 00:08:15.029 --> 00:08:18.529 happy. I would be full. I would be. And I didn't 00:08:18.529 --> 00:08:20.550 even know what that was. I didn't have some picture 00:08:20.550 --> 00:08:23.009 because still at that point, when I'm that age, 00:08:23.149 --> 00:08:25.009 Beth Moore is not on the scene. Like she's just 00:08:25.009 --> 00:08:27.730 barely like starting to publish. There wasn't 00:08:27.730 --> 00:08:30.490 a category for what I do now. So when I talk 00:08:30.490 --> 00:08:32.210 about holy ambition being a turning point for 00:08:32.210 --> 00:08:34.490 me, it wasn't like, and then I jotted down that 00:08:34.490 --> 00:08:37.610 I would have a podcast and I would speak to thousands 00:08:37.610 --> 00:08:39.769 of people. Like I didn't, that was, those weren't 00:08:39.769 --> 00:08:43.440 options or categories. It was just the sense 00:08:43.440 --> 00:08:46.799 that I wouldn't always be holding myself back, 00:08:46.840 --> 00:08:48.659 but that I would be obeying God and running. 00:08:49.120 --> 00:08:51.159 And that sounds like obviously that would be 00:08:51.159 --> 00:08:53.360 holy, right? Obviously that would be what God 00:08:53.360 --> 00:08:56.360 wanted. But when you have so many expectations 00:08:56.360 --> 00:08:59.379 and so many fears and you're a people pleaser, 00:08:59.399 --> 00:09:01.539 which I was at the time, got rid of that, thankfully. 00:09:02.279 --> 00:09:06.899 But at that time it was debilitating. There's 00:09:06.899 --> 00:09:12.759 that feels. crazy. And you're living out the 00:09:12.759 --> 00:09:14.799 expectations of the people around you. And you 00:09:14.799 --> 00:09:16.399 don't have a lot of strong women ahead of you 00:09:16.399 --> 00:09:20.639 that have modeled leading and teaching and using 00:09:20.639 --> 00:09:24.220 those gifts. So ambition for me was not cluttered 00:09:24.220 --> 00:09:26.980 then. Now, today, fast forward, are you kidding 00:09:26.980 --> 00:09:30.460 me? If I'm not in check, I will be the greediest. 00:09:30.620 --> 00:09:33.759 I can get paid whatever I want to go speak somewhere. 00:09:34.240 --> 00:09:36.799 I mean, that happened last night. A church was 00:09:36.799 --> 00:09:39.559 like, well, we don't care. We'll pay. just tell 00:09:39.559 --> 00:09:41.860 us what and i told my assistant i was like no 00:09:41.860 --> 00:09:45.259 like just just tell them whatever they want to 00:09:45.259 --> 00:09:48.179 pay is great like there there is there is a mixed 00:09:48.179 --> 00:09:50.720 bag in this world of public christianity that 00:09:50.720 --> 00:09:52.259 exists now and you've been a part of it longer 00:09:52.259 --> 00:09:56.340 than me that that it should terrify us right 00:09:56.340 --> 00:09:59.700 um and i and again what i've done is i have built 00:09:59.700 --> 00:10:02.759 the most ridiculous accountability i mean It's 00:10:02.759 --> 00:10:05.179 embarrassing. We show our finances to a group 00:10:05.179 --> 00:10:07.899 of people. We show our tithing and giving to 00:10:07.899 --> 00:10:09.980 other organizations. They see the numbers, not 00:10:09.980 --> 00:10:11.919 just the percentages. They know how much I make 00:10:11.919 --> 00:10:16.419 at things. They are watching our hearts and guarding 00:10:16.419 --> 00:10:18.840 our hearts because yes, that ambition can turn 00:10:18.840 --> 00:10:21.039 dark fast. And we see that everywhere right now. 00:10:21.480 --> 00:10:25.759 And, and I think that's where. But at that point 00:10:25.759 --> 00:10:27.299 in my life, I couldn't have even handled that 00:10:27.299 --> 00:10:29.299 because I couldn't have imagined the opportunities 00:10:29.299 --> 00:10:31.919 God's given me today. But he was preparing me 00:10:31.919 --> 00:10:35.320 to say yes. And that I had to get over my own 00:10:35.320 --> 00:10:38.440 fears, other people's expectations, and really 00:10:38.440 --> 00:10:42.000 believe that he had a story for me to live and 00:10:42.000 --> 00:10:44.679 that I didn't want to miss it. And what was it 00:10:44.679 --> 00:10:47.340 about the content? I mean, for those who are 00:10:47.340 --> 00:10:49.159 thinking, holy ambition, what are you all really 00:10:49.159 --> 00:10:52.429 talking about? Maybe a quick review. It's really 00:10:52.429 --> 00:10:56.649 the profile of Nehemiah's life, who's basically 00:10:56.649 --> 00:10:59.809 a business guy living in the lap of luxury. And 00:10:59.809 --> 00:11:03.830 so God takes this leader into a situation that 00:11:03.830 --> 00:11:06.350 other people had tried. Nothing happened. He 00:11:06.350 --> 00:11:09.190 dislocates his heart, and then he recognizes 00:11:09.190 --> 00:11:11.570 he can't do it. He has this broken spirit and 00:11:11.570 --> 00:11:14.809 desperate dependency of prayer. Takes a radical 00:11:14.809 --> 00:11:17.350 step of faith, the third thing where he risks 00:11:17.350 --> 00:11:20.190 his life. And then, you know, it's not all mystical 00:11:20.190 --> 00:11:22.289 and spiritual. He comes up with a strategic plan 00:11:22.289 --> 00:11:25.889 and organizes people and makes a personal commitment 00:11:25.889 --> 00:11:29.470 of what's my role on the wall. And then, you 00:11:29.470 --> 00:11:32.070 know, the American version of that is then everything 00:11:32.070 --> 00:11:35.850 goes great. The biblical version is he gets personally 00:11:35.850 --> 00:11:37.990 attacked from within. People are killing him 00:11:37.990 --> 00:11:42.450 from all sides. Yes. And that's my story. I think 00:11:42.450 --> 00:11:46.269 that's every leader's story. And so as you were 00:11:46.269 --> 00:11:49.740 kind of. Going through first, it's okay to be 00:11:49.740 --> 00:11:54.679 ambitious for God, holy ambition, and to dream 00:11:54.679 --> 00:11:57.220 and do what he wants you to do. Well, then there's 00:11:57.220 --> 00:12:01.360 kind of the process. First, what dislocated your 00:12:01.360 --> 00:12:04.879 heart? I mean, what was it that like this, I 00:12:04.879 --> 00:12:07.340 either get so mad because it's not happening, 00:12:07.419 --> 00:12:10.860 or when I think about it, I cry when I think 00:12:10.860 --> 00:12:15.250 of the need that is unmet. And you can't do everything, 00:12:15.350 --> 00:12:17.830 but it's just like my name's on this. God, if 00:12:17.830 --> 00:12:20.669 you would let me. Tell me how that happened, 00:12:20.730 --> 00:12:23.129 because to me, that's how it gets birthed. A 00:12:23.129 --> 00:12:25.389 hundred percent. And my heart was dislocated 00:12:25.389 --> 00:12:27.909 the minute I was saved. And that's why I was 00:12:27.909 --> 00:12:30.259 so passionate. was I wanted people to know Jesus. 00:12:30.340 --> 00:12:33.340 I saw hell and heaven felt real to me. The war 00:12:33.340 --> 00:12:35.440 felt, I could just see it happening everywhere 00:12:35.440 --> 00:12:38.559 I looked. So the bondage that I saw women specifically 00:12:38.559 --> 00:12:41.240 in, and still to this day, that it haunts me. 00:12:41.340 --> 00:12:44.919 I walk into a room to speak, regardless of the 00:12:44.919 --> 00:12:47.779 size, and there's a part of me that is going, 00:12:47.919 --> 00:12:50.320 I feel the darkness, right? Like I can sense 00:12:50.320 --> 00:12:54.159 that people are in bondage and stuck. So I mean, 00:12:54.159 --> 00:12:56.500 I mean, I would use a stronger word than dislocated. 00:12:56.519 --> 00:12:59.639 I was haunted. Like I was just, I could not escape 00:12:59.639 --> 00:13:02.220 this burden and it is burning in my bones. So 00:13:02.220 --> 00:13:04.019 while the positive is like, I can't believe I 00:13:04.019 --> 00:13:06.259 have a savior like this. The negative is I'm 00:13:06.259 --> 00:13:08.019 around people every single day that don't have 00:13:08.019 --> 00:13:11.200 that. And so that, I mean, I'm an evangelist 00:13:11.200 --> 00:13:13.620 at heart. Like that, that is where my heart was 00:13:13.620 --> 00:13:18.320 dislocated. It was, it was everybody I met after 00:13:18.320 --> 00:13:21.100 I loved Jesus. It was just, I'm, I'm grieved 00:13:21.100 --> 00:13:24.210 by it. So, so I think what, That was the first 00:13:24.210 --> 00:13:26.169 thing. And it was just something I lived with. 00:13:26.289 --> 00:13:31.090 And yet I am strategic and I am creative and 00:13:31.090 --> 00:13:36.169 I'm ADD and I think out of the box. And so how 00:13:36.169 --> 00:13:39.409 to reach people and how to bring the gospel to 00:13:39.409 --> 00:13:42.870 people, it was like technical. I had ideas and 00:13:42.870 --> 00:13:45.029 I had passions and creative ways to do that. 00:13:45.110 --> 00:13:47.330 What you did and what the content did was like, 00:13:47.409 --> 00:13:49.990 hey, take the lid off. Like, where have you... 00:13:50.320 --> 00:13:53.139 just put a lid on your passions, your gifts, 00:13:53.179 --> 00:13:57.039 your dreams, your, um, your personality. Like, 00:13:57.100 --> 00:13:59.860 where have you just limited what God could do? 00:13:59.899 --> 00:14:04.179 And I remember just going, oh, everywhere, everywhere. 00:14:05.019 --> 00:14:07.700 And, and I remember what, what got my husband 00:14:07.700 --> 00:14:09.559 though, because he wasn't as limited by that 00:14:09.559 --> 00:14:15.000 was, wow, I am, I'm really strategic and I could. 00:14:15.600 --> 00:14:18.519 I could serve God and help God in more unique 00:14:18.519 --> 00:14:20.559 ways than just pastoring. Because we were in 00:14:20.559 --> 00:14:22.240 seminary at the time and he was thinking out 00:14:22.240 --> 00:14:25.399 of the box about, gosh, I'm a good leader. I 00:14:25.399 --> 00:14:27.659 would say that's his main thing is he's a coach 00:14:27.659 --> 00:14:30.539 at heart and he's just a really excellent executor 00:14:30.539 --> 00:14:32.759 and leader. And he does that now for lots of 00:14:32.759 --> 00:14:35.659 different companies. He is a serial entrepreneur, 00:14:35.820 --> 00:14:39.320 we call him, is our loving title, which just 00:14:39.320 --> 00:14:42.720 means that he is strategically helping lots of 00:14:42.720 --> 00:14:44.600 different companies. That does pay the bills 00:14:44.600 --> 00:14:47.240 usually. So praise God for that. Sounds like 00:14:47.240 --> 00:14:50.240 it wouldn't or doesn't, but it does. And so all 00:14:50.240 --> 00:14:53.980 that to say, his story was different with the 00:14:53.980 --> 00:14:56.659 continent. It was just feeling valued of, gosh, 00:14:56.720 --> 00:14:59.039 I have a part to play on the wall. I have a place 00:14:59.039 --> 00:15:03.600 to contribute. And it's okay that it's not. Or 00:15:03.600 --> 00:15:05.659 it's okay that it's not, you know, whatever his 00:15:05.659 --> 00:15:07.840 picture of ministry was at the time. So I think 00:15:07.840 --> 00:15:11.179 it redeemed business for him. Throughout his 00:15:11.179 --> 00:15:13.860 life, he is a thread of ministry business that 00:15:13.860 --> 00:15:18.039 is really powerful. So he actually sees himself 00:15:18.039 --> 00:15:20.360 still in ministry, but yet he is not vocationally 00:15:20.360 --> 00:15:22.879 paid to do ministry. And I think all of that 00:15:22.879 --> 00:15:27.460 came from that time in his life. Giving ourselves 00:15:27.460 --> 00:15:30.559 permission to think differently about our gifts 00:15:30.559 --> 00:15:32.559 and our calling and how we could play parts on 00:15:32.559 --> 00:15:35.059 the wall of building the kingdom was a huge part 00:15:35.059 --> 00:15:38.759 of it. Well, you can tell him that his early 00:15:38.759 --> 00:15:41.759 probing as we spent some time together and then 00:15:41.759 --> 00:15:45.200 I was pastoring for a number of years before 00:15:45.200 --> 00:15:47.960 it dawned on me. We developed a thing called 00:15:47.960 --> 00:15:50.500 Prime Movers where it's literally we take high 00:15:50.500 --> 00:15:53.600 capacity people, get them in a room together 00:15:53.600 --> 00:15:57.830 and sort of. clear away all the clutter of influence, 00:15:58.049 --> 00:16:01.529 affluence, all that, and say, wow, you know, 00:16:01.610 --> 00:16:05.009 why don't you minister to one another and identify 00:16:05.009 --> 00:16:08.250 what that holy ambition is and not just talk 00:16:08.250 --> 00:16:10.990 about it or intend it or do it later. It can 00:16:10.990 --> 00:16:13.009 happen in and through your business, in and through 00:16:13.009 --> 00:16:15.750 your life right now. And that's why, you know, 00:16:15.750 --> 00:16:18.029 we want people to realize you don't have to be 00:16:18.029 --> 00:16:21.210 a pastor or speak to thousands of women in, what, 00:16:21.289 --> 00:16:24.490 140 -some countries. To have a holy ambition. 00:16:24.690 --> 00:16:27.350 I mean, my wife's holy ambition, I mean, she 00:16:27.350 --> 00:16:31.070 wrote hers out, was an investment in our kids 00:16:31.070 --> 00:16:33.450 and what would happen in their life and through 00:16:33.450 --> 00:16:37.730 their life. And be honest, when I see my four 00:16:37.730 --> 00:16:41.809 kids, I'm glad what I've gotten to do, but their 00:16:41.809 --> 00:16:44.990 impact and their spheres of influence, I think, 00:16:44.990 --> 00:16:49.250 will far outweigh mine. And as a result of that, 00:16:49.389 --> 00:16:52.350 there's just... Tons of other moms. It doesn't 00:16:52.350 --> 00:16:54.870 always have to be. I think sometimes people get 00:16:54.870 --> 00:16:59.070 the idea it's big or famous or a lot. No, it's 00:16:59.070 --> 00:17:02.710 your part on the wall, but it's outside of these 00:17:02.710 --> 00:17:05.990 invisible expectations that, well, only someone 00:17:05.990 --> 00:17:09.450 else could do this or do that. I don't know if 00:17:09.450 --> 00:17:11.309 men struggle with this as much as women, but 00:17:11.309 --> 00:17:15.869 women do tend to go one way or the other. Right. 00:17:15.970 --> 00:17:17.750 And I think that's what we're talking about here 00:17:17.750 --> 00:17:21.000 is a tension of. obedience to what God's called 00:17:21.000 --> 00:17:24.819 me to, to what is he telling me to do? And, and 00:17:24.819 --> 00:17:27.299 so for me, it would have been disobedient to 00:17:27.299 --> 00:17:29.039 push away the dreams and the visions that he 00:17:29.039 --> 00:17:31.980 was building up in me at the same time for your 00:17:31.980 --> 00:17:33.859 wife, it would have been disobedient to like 00:17:33.859 --> 00:17:36.799 seek book deals and try to join your radio show. 00:17:36.839 --> 00:17:38.440 You know what I'm saying? So I think what people 00:17:38.440 --> 00:17:42.289 need to hear us say is God's. story and his creativity 00:17:42.289 --> 00:17:45.490 is unique for each person and what's ironic is 00:17:45.490 --> 00:17:48.509 so many people will ask me like i want to be 00:17:48.509 --> 00:17:51.269 you like what do you how did how did you get 00:17:51.269 --> 00:17:53.630 to do what you do and i'm like first of all i 00:17:53.630 --> 00:17:56.269 always say what what do you think i do and then 00:17:56.269 --> 00:17:59.589 the next thing i say is well i spent 15 years 00:17:59.589 --> 00:18:01.789 in a living room making disciples and when i 00:18:01.789 --> 00:18:03.569 get to heaven i believe that will be the thing 00:18:03.569 --> 00:18:05.789 that i'm probably most rewarded for and that 00:18:05.789 --> 00:18:08.700 the lives that And I still, I just pulled back 00:18:08.700 --> 00:18:10.500 together a group of seven. It's been like a year 00:18:10.500 --> 00:18:12.200 or two that I haven't been able to have that. 00:18:12.440 --> 00:18:14.779 And I've kept that throughout my ministry growing. 00:18:14.900 --> 00:18:17.200 And I know without a doubt that stuff out there 00:18:17.200 --> 00:18:20.720 that I'm known for, that will probably burn up, 00:18:20.759 --> 00:18:22.700 right? That I've already received reward for. 00:18:22.799 --> 00:18:26.200 So even when you're called to the big, it's not 00:18:26.200 --> 00:18:29.240 about the big. And for me, it still is about 00:18:29.240 --> 00:18:32.019 that living room. And they get my priority. It's 00:18:32.019 --> 00:18:34.319 about my office and my team. And I tell them 00:18:34.319 --> 00:18:36.109 all the time, I'm like, listen. I won't be held 00:18:36.109 --> 00:18:38.690 accountable for the million people we reach through 00:18:38.690 --> 00:18:40.690 this conference. I will be for y 'all. And if 00:18:40.690 --> 00:18:42.289 y 'all are growing up in the faith, and if y 00:18:42.289 --> 00:18:44.109 'all are loving Jesus more because of time with 00:18:44.109 --> 00:18:47.470 me. So I think it's even when it gets big, and 00:18:47.470 --> 00:18:49.670 yet I think it's important, and especially now, 00:18:49.809 --> 00:18:53.150 Chip, back then, that kind of ambition wasn't 00:18:53.150 --> 00:18:57.490 readily even thought of, right? But now, that 00:18:57.490 --> 00:18:58.990 is the first thing thought of with the generation 00:18:58.990 --> 00:19:01.750 coming, growing up on social media, is I want 00:19:01.750 --> 00:19:03.190 to have a big influence. I want to have a big 00:19:03.190 --> 00:19:06.039 platform. And, and I, I think it'll be really 00:19:06.039 --> 00:19:08.240 powerful conversation because it's refining that 00:19:08.240 --> 00:19:10.220 ambition, right? I don't look at my daughters 00:19:10.220 --> 00:19:12.019 and think they don't have enough ambition. That's 00:19:12.019 --> 00:19:14.180 not, you know, people would have looked at me 00:19:14.180 --> 00:19:17.200 that way at that age, but, but now I'm looking 00:19:17.200 --> 00:19:20.079 at them and going, let's, let's turn that ambition 00:19:20.079 --> 00:19:23.019 into something holy. And, and so I think it's, 00:19:23.019 --> 00:19:26.460 it's, yeah, it's just a lot of tension, which 00:19:26.460 --> 00:19:29.460 is what it is to follow God of just holding all 00:19:29.460 --> 00:19:32.119 those tensions and embracing them. And I think 00:19:32.119 --> 00:19:36.380 that second part that I work with a lot of business 00:19:36.380 --> 00:19:38.960 people, we have both men and women. And people 00:19:38.960 --> 00:19:41.380 are very successful and they have a lot of gifts. 00:19:41.500 --> 00:19:43.880 And usually when you have gifts and capacity 00:19:43.880 --> 00:19:48.000 and work really hard, you end up in positions 00:19:48.000 --> 00:19:50.720 of leadership and often with wealth. I mean, 00:19:50.740 --> 00:19:54.940 those are some things. And yet the turning point 00:19:54.940 --> 00:19:58.579 I've watched so often is. That's what you can 00:19:58.579 --> 00:20:01.420 do with your energy and your gift and you make 00:20:01.420 --> 00:20:05.759 it happen. And often that missing moment of God's 00:20:05.759 --> 00:20:09.200 hand is that moment of the broken spirit where 00:20:09.200 --> 00:20:12.319 you come to the end of yourself. And often it 00:20:12.319 --> 00:20:15.839 happens as the ministry starts growing and you 00:20:15.839 --> 00:20:18.920 have these private moments. It's just like, I'm 00:20:18.920 --> 00:20:23.779 overwhelmed. I can't do this. And I think that 00:20:23.779 --> 00:20:27.400 gets largely reflected in our prayer life. in 00:20:27.400 --> 00:20:30.440 our personal time with God, and then, you know, 00:20:30.440 --> 00:20:33.440 maybe one, two, or three of the closest, closest 00:20:33.440 --> 00:20:35.619 friends that you can absolutely be vulnerable 00:20:35.619 --> 00:20:39.720 with because there's this outside person at whatever 00:20:39.720 --> 00:20:44.440 stage, and then there's this very real coming 00:20:44.440 --> 00:20:47.960 to the grips of, God, if this is not about you, 00:20:48.119 --> 00:20:52.019 and he asks us, it seems, at incremental stages 00:20:52.019 --> 00:20:57.509 to take steps of faith. If it doesn't work, you 00:20:57.509 --> 00:20:59.990 have way more than egg on your face. Sometimes 00:20:59.990 --> 00:21:03.410 it's relocating. Sometimes it's like trusting 00:21:03.410 --> 00:21:06.529 God for money. What are some of the challenges 00:21:06.529 --> 00:21:11.089 as you have now walked through the journey? Your 00:21:11.089 --> 00:21:16.190 world has really changed. You know, I think one 00:21:16.190 --> 00:21:18.710 of the biggest misconceptions about anything 00:21:18.710 --> 00:21:22.529 that succeeds is. that it was up and to the right, 00:21:22.549 --> 00:21:25.730 that it was just successful and turned it up. 00:21:25.970 --> 00:21:30.829 And I would say largely numerically and just 00:21:30.829 --> 00:21:34.549 in every way, that is true. On paper, that is 00:21:34.549 --> 00:21:39.970 true. Behind the scenes, it has been horrific. 00:21:40.150 --> 00:21:42.869 And I don't use that word lightly because I know 00:21:42.869 --> 00:21:45.630 people listening know horrific things in their 00:21:45.630 --> 00:21:49.390 lives. But I remember when we launched If Gathering. 00:21:50.400 --> 00:21:52.940 The reason we did, I did not want to do it. I 00:21:52.940 --> 00:21:54.640 did not want to run an organization. I still 00:21:54.640 --> 00:21:56.480 struggled with wanting to be a stay -at -home 00:21:56.480 --> 00:22:00.319 mom and not wanting to have too much ambition. 00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:02.599 I still was fighting those battles. I just, I 00:22:02.599 --> 00:22:04.299 wanted to control it and keep it small. I wanted 00:22:04.299 --> 00:22:05.660 to write a few books, which I've been asked to 00:22:05.660 --> 00:22:08.640 do and sign. And I wanted to build, I wanted 00:22:08.640 --> 00:22:10.759 the thing that I pictured that could reach this 00:22:10.759 --> 00:22:12.420 generation to exist, but I didn't want to be 00:22:12.420 --> 00:22:13.740 the one that builds it. So I just kept giving 00:22:13.740 --> 00:22:15.259 it away. I kept giving it to ministries that 00:22:15.259 --> 00:22:17.099 already had platforms and said, this is what 00:22:17.099 --> 00:22:18.819 I think you need to do for the next generation. 00:22:18.940 --> 00:22:22.400 But it became clear that I was called to build 00:22:22.400 --> 00:22:24.339 it. And I remember before we're about to sign 00:22:24.339 --> 00:22:27.900 for the 501c3, I met with a mentor of mine. who 00:22:27.900 --> 00:22:30.720 a lot of people would know. And I was on my knees 00:22:30.720 --> 00:22:32.720 and she was praying over me. And she said, I 00:22:32.720 --> 00:22:34.859 see a seed and the seed is doing this and the 00:22:34.859 --> 00:22:36.740 seed is doing this. And she was just praying 00:22:36.740 --> 00:22:39.259 this really prophetic, powerful prayer over me. 00:22:39.359 --> 00:22:42.079 And I'm like, okay, like, you know, I guess I 00:22:42.079 --> 00:22:44.460 need to do this. And at the same time, my friend 00:22:44.460 --> 00:22:46.400 called me, one of my best friends and said, hey, 00:22:46.460 --> 00:22:48.539 I just had a vision and she's not super spiritual. 00:22:48.880 --> 00:22:51.759 And she said, I was, I was getting a massage. 00:22:51.859 --> 00:22:53.299 I was about to fall asleep. And she said, I pictured 00:22:53.299 --> 00:22:56.359 God picking you up and digging a hole and putting 00:22:56.359 --> 00:22:57.980 you in the ground and covering you up like you 00:22:57.980 --> 00:23:01.720 were a seed. And I pull over and I need it. You 00:23:01.720 --> 00:23:04.440 know, God rarely does this, but I pulled over 00:23:04.440 --> 00:23:06.740 my car and I pulled out my computer and I typed, 00:23:06.779 --> 00:23:08.220 I was like, God, I will like, kind of like a 00:23:08.220 --> 00:23:10.619 contract. Like I will, I will do this. I will 00:23:10.619 --> 00:23:13.200 obey you. I'll start if gathering. So we, I get 00:23:13.200 --> 00:23:16.259 home, we file the paperwork, you know, I I'm 00:23:16.259 --> 00:23:20.160 in, she has a massive stroke. within a week of 00:23:20.160 --> 00:23:23.180 that like after a week after and can't speak 00:23:23.180 --> 00:23:27.019 and she's my best friend that began for me a 00:23:27.019 --> 00:23:30.140 dumpster fire that of five years so those five 00:23:30.140 --> 00:23:32.279 years were when everything was being born but 00:23:32.279 --> 00:23:35.980 but everything in our life it felt like was falling 00:23:35.980 --> 00:23:38.019 apart my husband is walking through depression 00:23:38.019 --> 00:23:42.759 and and our family is going through so much hardship 00:23:42.759 --> 00:23:46.579 a lot of which I can't share my my um My extended 00:23:46.579 --> 00:23:49.640 family was, it was the darkest season in our 00:23:49.640 --> 00:23:53.500 lives. It felt like I had signed something with 00:23:53.500 --> 00:23:55.579 God and said, I'll do what you call me to do. 00:23:55.980 --> 00:23:59.480 And in doing so, we became like the bullseye 00:23:59.480 --> 00:24:03.220 of attack, right? And it's that picture of on 00:24:03.220 --> 00:24:04.660 the playground, we used to play a game where 00:24:04.660 --> 00:24:06.640 it's a horrible game where you grab hands and 00:24:06.640 --> 00:24:08.700 you twist each other's arms until somebody cried 00:24:08.700 --> 00:24:14.339 mercy. And I remember one night, I remember that's 00:24:14.339 --> 00:24:17.140 what I felt. And I, and I cried mercy. And I 00:24:17.140 --> 00:24:19.559 was like, I'm out. Like, this is too bad. Too 00:24:19.559 --> 00:24:22.039 many people I love that I'm this close to are 00:24:22.039 --> 00:24:26.500 under attack. Like I'm out. And, and I don't 00:24:26.500 --> 00:24:29.240 remember like the answer to that moment of, well, 00:24:29.279 --> 00:24:31.380 how did you persevere is not clear to me. I don't 00:24:31.380 --> 00:24:34.400 remember. I remember that moment. I don't remember 00:24:34.400 --> 00:24:36.660 how I got out of bed the next day, how I didn't 00:24:36.660 --> 00:24:39.240 stop the movement of God that was already happening. 00:24:39.740 --> 00:24:44.099 But I. I wanted to, and I can say that in those 00:24:44.099 --> 00:24:48.059 five years, um, what God did. And I will, I will 00:24:48.059 --> 00:24:50.380 always thank him. I remember when I started and 00:24:50.380 --> 00:24:52.720 I signed my foot before I would sign on the line 00:24:52.720 --> 00:24:55.259 of that book deal, I reached out to somebody 00:24:55.259 --> 00:24:56.920 I trust. And I said, I'm scared. I'm going to 00:24:56.920 --> 00:25:00.599 sign this paper and I sell my faith and I'll 00:25:00.599 --> 00:25:02.440 be successful on earth because of my love for 00:25:02.440 --> 00:25:04.380 Jesus. And I'll get to heaven. And Jesus will 00:25:04.380 --> 00:25:07.039 be like, you literally did you, you do. I don't 00:25:07.039 --> 00:25:09.259 know you like you, you lost your soul to this. 00:25:09.740 --> 00:25:13.250 And. I was so scared of that. And I remember 00:25:13.250 --> 00:25:16.789 praying and that sweet friend who I respect said, 00:25:16.869 --> 00:25:21.789 Jenny, never lose that fear. Keep being afraid 00:25:21.789 --> 00:25:25.390 that this could corrupt you, like power corrupts, 00:25:25.390 --> 00:25:28.529 right? And so keep being afraid of that. And 00:25:28.529 --> 00:25:31.009 I remember praying, God, I just want to please 00:25:31.009 --> 00:25:34.390 you. I don't care if any of this succeeds, if 00:25:34.390 --> 00:25:38.089 I am not walking with you and my soul is kept 00:25:38.089 --> 00:25:41.200 by you. And I look at that and I think about 00:25:41.200 --> 00:25:43.019 that prayer and I'm like, that's how he kept 00:25:43.019 --> 00:25:45.099 my soul. I'm going to speak at one of the biggest 00:25:45.099 --> 00:25:47.539 conferences in the world. This is like year one 00:25:47.539 --> 00:25:50.859 or two of my public ministry. And the night before 00:25:50.859 --> 00:25:53.000 I'm helping my friend, Sarah clean out the pantry. 00:25:53.099 --> 00:25:56.119 She's drooling. She's in a wheelchair. We're 00:25:56.119 --> 00:25:57.880 putting away her pantry. She's in the middle 00:25:57.880 --> 00:26:00.019 of a divorce. Just so dark. You can't imagine. 00:26:00.619 --> 00:26:03.839 And, and then people are asking me, how do you 00:26:03.839 --> 00:26:05.859 not get a big head? Like everything's succeeding. 00:26:06.319 --> 00:26:09.180 And I was like, this isn't hard. I mean, I, you 00:26:09.180 --> 00:26:11.559 don't feel like a big deal speaking at a big 00:26:11.559 --> 00:26:13.640 conference when you've been the night, but I 00:26:13.640 --> 00:26:16.359 mean, it makes me cry still, you know, when you're 00:26:16.359 --> 00:26:18.799 walking through that kind of darkness. And so 00:26:18.799 --> 00:26:23.400 I thank God for the darkness. And I know that 00:26:23.400 --> 00:26:26.619 I would have lost my soul. Like he knows how 00:26:26.619 --> 00:26:28.960 to persevere us and no, he does not want to torture 00:26:28.960 --> 00:26:31.140 the people we love. That is the enemy, right? 00:26:31.220 --> 00:26:33.759 Like God hates evil. Like he does not want evil 00:26:33.759 --> 00:26:39.400 to win ever, but in the. the timing and the difficulty 00:26:39.400 --> 00:26:42.720 that we were facing, he used it to purify my, 00:26:42.759 --> 00:26:45.859 my motives and my heart. And, and I thank him 00:26:45.859 --> 00:26:50.000 for that because I, I just know I am prone to 00:26:50.000 --> 00:26:52.839 all the horrible things that would happen. Let 00:26:52.839 --> 00:26:58.119 me pause for a second because one of the predictable 00:26:58.119 --> 00:27:02.099 things that happens to people and especially 00:27:02.099 --> 00:27:06.880 now is whether they read Holy Ambition or listen 00:27:06.880 --> 00:27:10.920 to it or whatever, God bursts things in people 00:27:10.920 --> 00:27:14.740 and they sign on the line, it gets clear, and 00:27:14.740 --> 00:27:20.359 they take those steps. And we have been so inundated, 00:27:20.380 --> 00:27:24.720 and maybe not into some full prosperity, but 00:27:24.720 --> 00:27:28.359 this unconscious belief system that if you really 00:27:28.359 --> 00:27:31.759 obey God, I mean, if you're really all in. I 00:27:31.759 --> 00:27:34.259 mean, your future, your family, your whatever 00:27:34.259 --> 00:27:39.180 God, that the prediction in the subconscious 00:27:39.180 --> 00:27:42.119 is things are going to be good. There's going 00:27:42.119 --> 00:27:45.140 to be blessing. And the fact of the matter is, 00:27:45.240 --> 00:27:50.759 long term, that is very, very true. But they 00:27:50.759 --> 00:27:53.460 get disillusioned and think either God let me 00:27:53.460 --> 00:27:57.700 down or what's wrong or he doesn't care. And 00:27:57.700 --> 00:28:01.089 what you and I both from experience. And if we 00:28:01.089 --> 00:28:04.009 would read through scripture carefully, the journey 00:28:04.009 --> 00:28:06.769 is much more. And this is what I want people 00:28:06.769 --> 00:28:11.250 to hear. If God is going to choose to use you 00:28:11.250 --> 00:28:15.450 greatly in a broad scope, then he has to deepen 00:28:15.450 --> 00:28:18.950 you so that when it happens, the roots of your 00:28:18.950 --> 00:28:22.990 life will be sunk in and it will not be getting 00:28:22.990 --> 00:28:25.569 caught up in it. And there's only one way to 00:28:25.569 --> 00:28:28.819 go there. Right. And it's pain. It's a level 00:28:28.819 --> 00:28:32.980 of dependency when you trust when there's no 00:28:32.980 --> 00:28:36.339 payoff. In fact, it's negative, it's difficult, 00:28:36.539 --> 00:28:40.859 it's painful, and it is spiritual warfare. And 00:28:40.859 --> 00:28:43.839 thanks for sharing that. That's a side of your 00:28:43.839 --> 00:28:47.339 life not a whole lot of people necessarily will 00:28:47.339 --> 00:28:51.160 know. And yet as people begin to dream and think, 00:28:51.420 --> 00:28:54.359 it's not, you know, I've had one person say, 00:28:54.440 --> 00:28:56.279 well, if it's like that, I don't really want 00:28:56.279 --> 00:28:59.390 to do that. And if I knew what it was like, I 00:28:59.390 --> 00:29:01.750 wouldn't have ever done it. And I, I would say, 00:29:01.829 --> 00:29:03.710 people say sometimes like, would you give it 00:29:03.710 --> 00:29:05.589 up today? And I'm like, are you kidding? I'll 00:29:05.589 --> 00:29:07.910 give it up. I'll give it up before I ever started. 00:29:09.250 --> 00:29:12.130 Me quitting is not, is more of a problem than 00:29:12.130 --> 00:29:15.109 it is, you know, something like, oh, my identity's 00:29:15.109 --> 00:29:17.069 in it. I'm like, oh no, like attached to this 00:29:17.069 --> 00:29:19.269 calling has been such grief and such difficulty 00:29:19.269 --> 00:29:23.329 and such pain that it's more likely to slip through 00:29:23.329 --> 00:29:25.150 my fingers than for me to grab it too tight. 00:29:26.009 --> 00:29:28.029 And I love that because that was my biggest fear. 00:29:28.109 --> 00:29:29.910 So God's protected me. And I think he honors, 00:29:30.029 --> 00:29:32.170 you know, Solomon prayed for wisdom and God gave 00:29:32.170 --> 00:29:33.849 it. When you pray for something that you want, 00:29:33.910 --> 00:29:35.990 a pure heart, a humble heart, you'll get it. 00:29:36.069 --> 00:29:39.529 And I think that I, and I don't regret that, 00:29:39.690 --> 00:29:42.890 right? So while when the day comes to close up, 00:29:42.890 --> 00:29:47.089 if or to retire or to be done, I'll say yes and 00:29:47.089 --> 00:29:51.569 amen. But I, at the same time, I'm like, gosh, 00:29:51.589 --> 00:29:53.349 so much fruit has come from it and obedience. 00:29:54.129 --> 00:29:56.470 It's his vision and his plan. I'm stewarding 00:29:56.470 --> 00:29:59.930 this thing, right? And I'll stay in because I 00:29:59.930 --> 00:30:01.970 told him I would. And he's kept his promise, 00:30:02.109 --> 00:30:05.150 right? He's kept his promise to purify my heart 00:30:05.150 --> 00:30:07.750 and to make me more like him as I've gone. And 00:30:07.750 --> 00:30:10.829 he's used the thing I thought would crumble me 00:30:10.829 --> 00:30:13.589 and distract me and take me away from my family 00:30:13.589 --> 00:30:16.170 and away from God. And he's enriched our family. 00:30:16.289 --> 00:30:18.549 And he has built up the faith of our family. 00:30:18.710 --> 00:30:23.720 And he's built up my faith. Again, I have weakness 00:30:23.720 --> 00:30:25.519 everywhere and we can talk about today, like 00:30:25.519 --> 00:30:30.680 my sin, but I see in general this God who has 00:30:30.680 --> 00:30:34.099 protected us and protected me only because it 00:30:34.099 --> 00:30:37.079 was his plan and we weren't chasing it and trying 00:30:37.079 --> 00:30:39.440 to make something happen. Yeah, I think this 00:30:39.440 --> 00:30:41.859 idea that I've got to get a platform is the wrong 00:30:41.859 --> 00:30:44.900 place to start, but it's everywhere as opposed 00:30:44.900 --> 00:30:48.380 to, God, what do you want me to do? Lordship, 00:30:48.400 --> 00:30:51.259 I'll do whatever you want me to do. And here's 00:30:51.259 --> 00:30:54.519 the thing is always there's cost, but there is 00:30:54.519 --> 00:30:58.059 reward. You said that word fruit and you just 00:30:58.059 --> 00:31:01.900 see these ripple effects of the women that you've 00:31:01.900 --> 00:31:04.319 helped and what happens in their marriages. And 00:31:04.319 --> 00:31:08.240 guess what? Those kids get a different mom and 00:31:08.240 --> 00:31:10.220 those single people have a different hope. And 00:31:10.220 --> 00:31:13.019 so on the one hand, of course, there's, I mean, 00:31:13.039 --> 00:31:16.539 Jesus, it was for the joy set before him, but 00:31:16.539 --> 00:31:20.539 he endured the cross. And so we get. I mean, 00:31:20.599 --> 00:31:23.160 I want people to know, follow your holy ambition. 00:31:23.200 --> 00:31:28.339 Of course, there's a price tag. But I would not 00:31:28.339 --> 00:31:31.980 trade it. There is exceedingly great reward. 00:31:33.380 --> 00:31:36.259 It's good to walk with God. That's the bottom 00:31:36.259 --> 00:31:38.420 line. It is good to walk with God. I don't want. 00:31:38.990 --> 00:31:41.190 I don't want to veer off from anything he has 00:31:41.190 --> 00:31:43.529 for me because the hardest parts have actually 00:31:43.529 --> 00:31:45.210 been the richest and the best parts. You know, 00:31:45.230 --> 00:31:47.269 we adopted our youngest son out of obedience. 00:31:47.450 --> 00:31:49.309 And that was one of the things God put in our 00:31:49.309 --> 00:31:51.349 heart as we pray, Lord, we'll do anything you 00:31:51.349 --> 00:31:55.450 want. And, and I mean, you talk about the greatest 00:31:55.450 --> 00:31:58.750 blessing to our family's life. He has kept us 00:31:58.750 --> 00:32:02.329 close. My college kids come home and we'll probably 00:32:02.329 --> 00:32:04.289 move back here because they feel responsible 00:32:04.289 --> 00:32:06.829 to help us like send him into the world. Like 00:32:06.829 --> 00:32:10.140 he has made our family. Has that been the hardest 00:32:10.140 --> 00:32:14.180 journey for him, for our kid and for us? Yes. 00:32:14.740 --> 00:32:17.440 But would we ever trade that storyline? I mean, 00:32:17.480 --> 00:32:20.220 he has my heart, that boy. I love him so deep. 00:32:20.519 --> 00:32:22.819 Cannot imagine our family without him. So it's 00:32:22.819 --> 00:32:24.779 kind of like, would I trade the hard for the 00:32:24.779 --> 00:32:27.859 good? Never. And all the best parts were hard 00:32:27.859 --> 00:32:32.259 and are hard. And I think we can do harder things 00:32:32.259 --> 00:32:37.680 than we think. And we need to be people who... 00:32:38.089 --> 00:32:40.930 Don't make life choices based on pros and cons 00:32:40.930 --> 00:32:45.710 and ease and comfort and hardship, but on obedience 00:32:45.710 --> 00:32:48.509 to God, whatever he calls us to do. You remind 00:32:48.509 --> 00:32:53.950 me as we think about all of this is it's as basic. 00:32:53.970 --> 00:32:57.230 Somehow this has gotten to be what superstars 00:32:57.230 --> 00:32:59.569 do or what really, really committed Christians. 00:33:00.670 --> 00:33:04.109 Jesus said, if anyone will follow me, anyone, 00:33:04.329 --> 00:33:09.670 you want to be a follower. Let him deny himself, 00:33:10.029 --> 00:33:13.630 take up his cross, take up her cross, and follow 00:33:13.630 --> 00:33:15.549 me. Because if you seek to save your life, I 00:33:15.549 --> 00:33:18.609 want my way on my terms, my agenda, my way, you'll 00:33:18.609 --> 00:33:22.369 lose it. But if you give up your life, if you 00:33:22.369 --> 00:33:24.210 can be the seed that goes into the ground and 00:33:24.210 --> 00:33:27.029 dies, it'll bear forth much fruit. And I think 00:33:27.029 --> 00:33:29.930 on the journey, I don't know if I have a life 00:33:29.930 --> 00:33:32.410 first, but if there's one, I go back to Hebrews 00:33:32.410 --> 00:33:36.369 10, 36 says, you have need of endurance. So that 00:33:36.369 --> 00:33:38.730 once you have done the will of God, you might 00:33:38.730 --> 00:33:42.150 receive what was promised. And so much of what 00:33:42.150 --> 00:33:46.289 I hear you saying is, it's a calling of God. 00:33:46.450 --> 00:33:48.990 Obedience is the issue. It is very challenging. 00:33:49.349 --> 00:33:52.289 You endure. And as you endure, he's probably 00:33:52.289 --> 00:33:55.230 changed you more than anyone you've ever spoken 00:33:55.230 --> 00:33:58.769 to and all the people around you. And it's the 00:33:58.769 --> 00:34:01.710 resurrection fruit that has come out of your 00:34:01.710 --> 00:34:04.430 personal journey that gives the authority and 00:34:04.430 --> 00:34:07.380 the power. to how God has used you as you speak 00:34:07.380 --> 00:34:12.420 and as you write. And it is, it's a, it's a beautiful 00:34:12.420 --> 00:34:15.840 thing. Yes. Yeah, it is. And it's, it's fun. 00:34:15.980 --> 00:34:19.360 You know, I mean, even would any of my ambition 00:34:19.360 --> 00:34:21.920 in my best days ever dream up what God's doing 00:34:21.920 --> 00:34:25.260 right now? No way. No, not possible. It's just 00:34:25.260 --> 00:34:27.820 only the spirit of God could do the things he's 00:34:27.820 --> 00:34:30.019 done. Well, I want to, I want to wrap it up because 00:34:30.019 --> 00:34:33.360 I'm thinking, I just, I want to make sure everyone 00:34:33.360 --> 00:34:37.369 hears. This is what we do. And this is this is 00:34:37.369 --> 00:34:41.590 me asking. So this isn't you telling. Yeah, we 00:34:41.590 --> 00:34:45.289 heard 15 years teaching in the living room. So 00:34:45.289 --> 00:34:48.429 here's your assignment. Are you ready? What is 00:34:48.429 --> 00:34:51.429 what's the impact of if now to the glory of God? 00:34:51.550 --> 00:34:55.309 Yeah. Second, how in the world could someone 00:34:55.309 --> 00:34:57.869 be involved? And what's what's your heart? What 00:34:57.869 --> 00:35:00.480 do you long to see happen? I mean, everything 00:35:00.480 --> 00:35:04.000 I do is I build tools and experiences to make 00:35:04.000 --> 00:35:05.940 disciples who make disciples. There is no other 00:35:05.940 --> 00:35:08.039 goal in my life. Disciple generation is a thing 00:35:08.039 --> 00:35:09.820 hanging on my wall. Like that is what I want 00:35:09.820 --> 00:35:12.179 to give my life to for the rest of it. And so, 00:35:12.179 --> 00:35:14.119 and we do that through the local church and probably 00:35:14.119 --> 00:35:16.400 your daughters who lead if gatherings, they do 00:35:16.400 --> 00:35:18.860 that through local churches. So we, we do that. 00:35:18.880 --> 00:35:21.420 We, we support, we exist as a ministry to support 00:35:21.420 --> 00:35:25.079 the local church. And, and so what I love is, 00:35:25.079 --> 00:35:28.050 is. It is a group project. I mean, out there, 00:35:28.090 --> 00:35:29.630 there's a lot of people like your daughters that 00:35:29.630 --> 00:35:31.530 have just said, I will host in my place and I'll 00:35:31.530 --> 00:35:34.190 invite my neighbors and friends. And even our 00:35:34.190 --> 00:35:36.590 experience, our conference is still just a tool, 00:35:36.630 --> 00:35:39.090 right? It's a tool to help build great conversations 00:35:39.090 --> 00:35:42.369 around Jesus. And so we keep things simple. We 00:35:42.369 --> 00:35:44.570 cross all denominations. I mean, it's absolutely 00:35:44.570 --> 00:35:47.230 wild. This last year, we just had our event in 00:35:47.230 --> 00:35:51.880 March. We had over 6 ,500 people like your daughters 00:35:51.880 --> 00:35:55.400 that hosted events for us across the world. It 00:35:55.400 --> 00:35:58.320 reached 144 countries. You know, we don't know 00:35:58.320 --> 00:35:59.920 the numbers of how many people are in those, 00:36:00.059 --> 00:36:02.019 but then, you know, hundreds of thousands of 00:36:02.019 --> 00:36:04.380 people watching individually too. So it's pretty 00:36:04.380 --> 00:36:07.280 unbelievable. But what I love is that it's not 00:36:07.280 --> 00:36:09.800 me. It's not even our team, even though there's 00:36:09.800 --> 00:36:11.599 20 of us in this office that give our lives to 00:36:11.599 --> 00:36:15.400 these tools and experiences. It is... all of 00:36:15.400 --> 00:36:18.199 those women out there that have said yes. And, 00:36:18.280 --> 00:36:20.179 and they do the brave thing. We always say it. 00:36:20.179 --> 00:36:22.099 They're the heroes of this ministry because they 00:36:22.099 --> 00:36:24.099 brave inviting their friends and their neighbors. 00:36:24.219 --> 00:36:27.639 And so anyway, it's, it's so fun. I love working 00:36:27.639 --> 00:36:31.059 with women because they do get after it and make 00:36:31.059 --> 00:36:33.340 things happen. And it's just been such a fun, 00:36:33.340 --> 00:36:36.559 fun journey. So if gathering .com is the place 00:36:36.559 --> 00:36:38.800 and then other tools are at Jenny Allen .com 00:36:38.800 --> 00:36:42.099 and say both of those just a little bit slower 00:36:42.099 --> 00:36:45.659 for our, uh, For our visual learners like me, 00:36:45.719 --> 00:36:48.179 instead of the audio learners have it. But just 00:36:48.179 --> 00:36:50.780 say them both again for me. It's if, and it's 00:36:50.780 --> 00:36:55.139 ifgathering .com. Okay. And Jenny, J -E -N -N 00:36:55.139 --> 00:36:58.849 -I -E, Allen, A -L -L -E -N .com. And all of 00:36:58.849 --> 00:37:00.630 my tools and resources are in those two places. 00:37:00.710 --> 00:37:03.829 And yeah, it's, it is an adventure and we love 00:37:03.829 --> 00:37:06.210 women to come of all ages that come alongside 00:37:06.210 --> 00:37:09.349 of us. We had 1400 college students host this 00:37:09.349 --> 00:37:11.889 year, but then we also have women in their eighties 00:37:11.889 --> 00:37:14.210 that are if local leaders. So this is so fun 00:37:14.210 --> 00:37:16.530 because it does cross so many barriers and brings 00:37:16.530 --> 00:37:20.530 women together. Well, Jenny, thank you for taking 00:37:20.530 --> 00:37:24.110 the time and sharing your story for people that 00:37:24.110 --> 00:37:27.440 want to find out this. pique their interest. 00:37:27.500 --> 00:37:31.079 What is holy ambition? It's a book and part of 00:37:31.079 --> 00:37:34.059 this conversation I'm so grateful is, you know, 00:37:34.079 --> 00:37:37.440 I wrote that book 20 years ago and to be able 00:37:37.440 --> 00:37:40.860 to update for people to see the stories of people 00:37:40.860 --> 00:37:44.239 like yourself just brings me great joy. And so 00:37:44.239 --> 00:37:47.039 there's an app called Chip Ingram. You just type 00:37:47.039 --> 00:37:50.500 my name in the app store or livingontheedge .org 00:37:50.500 --> 00:37:55.960 and we'll have someone get with you. Either listen 00:37:55.960 --> 00:37:59.500 to the MP3s for free or get it in whatever format 00:37:59.500 --> 00:38:03.679 that you want. But could you pray for those people 00:38:03.679 --> 00:38:07.260 that find themselves? Yes. You know, I think 00:38:07.260 --> 00:38:11.079 God's speaking to me. God, I know you are. I 00:38:11.079 --> 00:38:13.920 know you are. And I know that you're doing it 00:38:13.920 --> 00:38:17.059 in the same way you've done it since. the very 00:38:17.059 --> 00:38:20.320 beginning, you and your spirit are leading people 00:38:20.320 --> 00:38:23.039 to obey you. And I look at the scripture and 00:38:23.039 --> 00:38:26.219 it's ultimately a story about Jesus, but it's 00:38:26.219 --> 00:38:28.699 also a story about a lot of humans that needed 00:38:28.699 --> 00:38:31.639 Jesus and stumbled their way through life. And 00:38:31.639 --> 00:38:35.239 yet they had something that marked almost all 00:38:35.239 --> 00:38:37.739 of them, which was faith. And so God, I pray 00:38:37.739 --> 00:38:40.300 for an increase of faith. God, we need it. There 00:38:40.300 --> 00:38:42.920 are mountains to climb in this generation. There 00:38:42.920 --> 00:38:45.300 are things that need to be built in this generation. 00:38:46.619 --> 00:38:48.380 ministries that need to be started in this generation. 00:38:48.539 --> 00:38:50.460 There are people that need to hear the gospel 00:38:50.460 --> 00:38:53.199 in cubicles and on college campuses and in classrooms, 00:38:53.260 --> 00:38:57.099 God, in this generation. So you know. all the 00:38:57.099 --> 00:38:58.780 people listening. And what I love is that we 00:38:58.780 --> 00:39:01.260 work with you. And so when we do something like 00:39:01.260 --> 00:39:04.280 this, God, your spirit is out there in cars and 00:39:04.280 --> 00:39:06.599 on walks with people and you're leading people 00:39:06.599 --> 00:39:08.280 and you're stirring people and you're causing 00:39:08.280 --> 00:39:10.260 them to wonder and be restless. Like, gosh, is 00:39:10.260 --> 00:39:12.599 this little idea I have, is this something you 00:39:12.599 --> 00:39:14.760 want me to do? And so God, I pray that those 00:39:14.760 --> 00:39:16.699 conversations would continue in the days and 00:39:16.699 --> 00:39:18.460 the weeks and the hours to come. God, would you 00:39:18.460 --> 00:39:22.940 bring people around? Those listening that have 00:39:22.940 --> 00:39:24.940 a dream, would you give them team like you've 00:39:24.940 --> 00:39:27.780 done for me again and again for Chip? Would you 00:39:27.780 --> 00:39:31.900 cause people to take the lid off, to imagine 00:39:31.900 --> 00:39:34.860 how to spend their life well in our short time 00:39:34.860 --> 00:39:37.400 here? Because we aren't here long. And God, would 00:39:37.400 --> 00:39:39.340 you help us kill the idols of our heart, whether 00:39:39.340 --> 00:39:42.019 that's approval or comfort or money or success, 00:39:42.340 --> 00:39:45.599 whatever it is, power or fear. God, whatever 00:39:45.599 --> 00:39:47.760 that thing is that keeps us from obeying you, 00:39:47.820 --> 00:39:51.019 would you help it to die? Would we turn and repent 00:39:51.019 --> 00:39:53.300 and run from it? And would you give us the power 00:39:53.300 --> 00:39:55.789 to do that, the strength to do that? Thank you 00:39:55.789 --> 00:39:58.130 that you are the God who never sleeps and that 00:39:58.130 --> 00:40:01.010 you are accomplishing your purposes, God, around 00:40:01.010 --> 00:40:05.329 us and over us or through us. And so would we 00:40:05.329 --> 00:40:08.449 be people that work with you? that we see our 00:40:08.449 --> 00:40:11.170 purpose is to submit and obey. I think of the 00:40:11.170 --> 00:40:13.730 great hymn, trust and obey for there is no other 00:40:13.730 --> 00:40:16.230 way. God, there is no other way. And even if 00:40:16.230 --> 00:40:19.730 that leads us into valleys, God, you will be 00:40:19.730 --> 00:40:22.309 with us in those valleys. And there is no other 00:40:22.309 --> 00:40:24.449 place I would rather be than with you, even in 00:40:24.449 --> 00:40:27.070 the darkness. God, thank you that you will spark. 00:40:27.769 --> 00:40:30.409 lots of acts of obedience because of this conversation. 00:40:30.530 --> 00:40:33.469 And we pray that you would fan into existence 00:40:33.469 --> 00:40:36.090 the things that are from you and that need to 00:40:36.090 --> 00:40:39.650 exist in Jesus name. Amen. Amen. Jenny, what 00:40:39.650 --> 00:40:42.730 a blast. So good to be with you. You too, Chip. 00:40:42.869 --> 00:40:48.980 Thank you. You've been listening to Chip's interview 00:40:48.980 --> 00:40:52.039 with author and speaker Jenny Allen here on Living 00:40:52.039 --> 00:40:54.739 on the Edge. To learn more about Jenny's ministry 00:40:54.739 --> 00:40:58.519 or her popular books, go to her website, JennyAllen 00:40:58.519 --> 00:41:03.380 .com. That's J -E -N -N -I -E -A -L -L -E -N 00:41:03.380 --> 00:41:06.880 .com. Well, before we wrap up, Chip's back with 00:41:06.880 --> 00:41:09.280 me to talk about our next series and why you 00:41:09.280 --> 00:41:12.900 should join us. Chip? Thanks so much, Dave. Those 00:41:12.900 --> 00:41:14.460 of you who've been around living on the edge 00:41:14.460 --> 00:41:18.199 very long know that one of our key premises of 00:41:18.199 --> 00:41:21.440 life change is the renewing of our mind, Romans 00:41:21.440 --> 00:41:24.659 12 too. And Jenny wrote a book called Get Out 00:41:24.659 --> 00:41:28.000 of Your Head where she talks about seven toxic 00:41:28.000 --> 00:41:32.059 things that literally ruin our mind. And I think 00:41:32.059 --> 00:41:34.900 she's got some things to say to all of us, but 00:41:34.900 --> 00:41:38.219 especially to some young women and some young 00:41:38.219 --> 00:41:42.360 moms who would say, Chip, thanks for inviting 00:41:42.360 --> 00:41:45.559 someone who really understands my world. And 00:41:45.559 --> 00:41:49.360 memo to you men, as I listened to it, as I read 00:41:49.360 --> 00:41:52.559 the book, I got to say, it helped me too. So, 00:41:52.579 --> 00:41:55.639 next program, get ready. Jenny Allen. Looking 00:41:55.639 --> 00:41:58.179 forward to it. Thanks, Chip. Let me take a quick 00:41:58.179 --> 00:42:00.460 second before we go and thank the generous people 00:42:00.460 --> 00:42:03.179 who support this ministry every month. Your faithful 00:42:03.179 --> 00:42:06.159 gifts help us inspire Christians to live like 00:42:06.159 --> 00:42:08.659 Christians. If you haven't partnered with us, 00:42:08.719 --> 00:42:10.780 would you prayerfully consider joining the Living 00:42:10.780 --> 00:42:13.699 on the Edge team? You can set up a monthly donation 00:42:13.699 --> 00:42:20.239 at livingontheedge .org or by calling 888 - Again, 00:42:20.820 --> 00:42:25.920 that's 888 -333 -6003 or visit livingontheedge 00:42:25.920 --> 00:42:30.380 .org. App listeners tap donate. Well, until next 00:42:30.380 --> 00:42:32.840 time, this is Dave Drewy saying thanks for listening 00:42:32.840 --> 00:42:35.099 to this edition of Living on the Edge.