You've heard me say over and over that God uses
ordinary people to do extraordinary things. Years
ago, I wrote a book called Holy Ambition, and
a young woman believed that that could actually
be her. We're going to hear from Jenny Allen
today and learn how the IF gathering, impacting
millions of women around the world, came to be.
Welcome to this edition of Living on the Edge
with Chip Ingram. We are an international discipleship
ministry devoted to helping Christians worldwide
live out their faith for the glory of God and
the benefit of all people. Thanks for being with
us as we have a special treat for you. In just
a minute, we'll revisit Chip's insightful interview
with author and speaker Jenny Allen. Now, you
may recognize her name from her popular IF gathering
events attended by tens of thousands of women
worldwide every year. Today, you'll hear her
story specifically about a significant season
of her life that launched her into ministry.
So without further delay, here's Chip to introduce
his guest. Well, welcome. Jenny Allen here. It's
a special time that I get to interview you. And
we have something in common in that almost 20
years ago, I wrote a book called The Holy Ambition.
And actually, before I wrote that book, your
husband told me, I think it was on like... those
cassettes or something like that, you know, a
million years ago. And, you know, part of our
journey is kind of going back and hearing, you
know, holy ambition is how God takes dreams that
he puts in our heart and that process of turning
them into reality. So I would just, when did
you first hear about holy ambition and maybe
what kind of impact did it have on your life?
So I look back, I'm going to back up just a little
bit so that you hear the context of when I found
holy ambition and what it did for me. I look
back at my life and I was a good church girl.
I pretty much obeyed my parents. I only tested
that, you know, so far and largely was a good
kid and would have said the whole time I was
a child that I was a Christian, but really didn't
come into saving knowledge of faith until I was
17. When I was 17 and I met Jesus, it was a zealot
was born. Like I was Paul. I couldn't not talk
about Jesus. I talked about him to everybody.
in my life. And they were completely annoyed.
They were like, you really are out of control.
And, and so I actually, because it was so obnoxious,
I just found, and I didn't have a model for this.
I found some younger girls to teach the Bible
to, and I taught the book of revelation, which
don't recommend as a brand new believer as a
17 year old knew nothing. Um, I don't think I
knew how to use a commentary. Didn't even know
those existed. Just opened my Bible and started
from the beginning and thought. I'm going to
teach you girls what this is. And who knows what
I said, but we had a ball. They loved God more
because of it. And I went on from there to continue
discipling girls and to teach the Bible. Again,
no models for this. Just, I had to talk about
it and it wasn't going well, you know, in my
sports teams and friends. So I was like, I just
need to find somebody that wants to learn and
wants to know God. Like I know and love God.
So that was just me. I was just a zealot. And
I have teaching gifts and leadership gifts and
I'm a visionary. So all these very big gifts,
big personality, big passion. And I'm a girl
in a very conservative Southern church that was
pretty healthy, but definitely didn't see women
that had those gifts. So I didn't know what to
do with those gifts. I certainly would have told
you at that age that. that there probably wasn't
anything else for me to do with those gifts than
to just lead a room full of people and teaching
the Bible, which was awesome. And I did for 15
years. That was really how I spent the next 15
years of my life. I always just had a living
room full of people, different ages that I was
discipling. And so, you know, but it kept growing.
And then, you know, that visionary part of me,
I would have ideas. I would have really big ideas.
I hated how big they were because I didn't feel
like women were supposed to do certain things.
And I didn't know, as a young mom who didn't
work and felt convicted about that, I didn't
think I could do those things part -time. I didn't
have a context of what God was birthing in me.
Not to mention at the time, Zach was kind of
in agreement. We were surviving. He was in ministry.
He was in youth ministry. I was supporting him.
It was a hard job. We were having kids in our
home all the time. And we had young kids that
needed to eat and, you know, grow up. So that's
about the time that Holy Ambition came into both
of our lives. But we're both visionaries. We're
both directional leaders. And we both have a
lot of capacity. And we were in a little bitty
town in Cleburne, Texas. And we listened to your
radio show. We loved your radio show. And so
you were in large part discipling us and we heard
about Holy Ambition in that way. And so we ordered
it. I don't know how we got it, but again, I
remember the box and it was this little thing
you popped open with six cassette tapes or so.
Yeah, so you got it. And so we were actually
starting seminary around that time and we were
driving into town and my husband was at a place
where he was like, yes, you're teaching a lot.
I would love for you to take classes. We were
prioritizing that. So we're doing seminary and
we're listening to this when we would drive into
class. Well, it blew my mind. It blew his mind
too. But how it changed my mind was, wow, I have
been terrified of the dreams God's put in me.
I have completely boxed in my gifts and how I
think I should be using them. And even the sermon
series made me uncomfortable. Holy ambition.
I thought that word was evil. I was scared of
it. I didn't want to, I didn't want to act like
I was a big deal. I didn't want to seem presumptuous.
We're in this little bitty Bible church and a
little bitty town, and I was already too much
for everybody. So, so I was so curious, but I
was afraid to believe that God could do more
with me because I was afraid of what that would
mean and what that would cost. Well, let me pause
for a second, because what I can tell you is
for whoever and how many ever listened to what
you just said. They're everywhere and they feel
the same way. I was in a tiny little town in
Texas myself in our first pastorate. And I had
these thoughts and these dreams. And I would
just, it was like I would wake up in a cold sweat
thinking, you're the most arrogant person in
the world. How could you ever think that, Chip?
And yet, you know, I pray and say, oh, but God,
I just, I see what could happen. And all of a
sudden I started looking at. You know, most of
these people in the Bible, before they got in
stained glass, they were like really regular,
pretty broken, ordinary. And that was the turning
point. And I just, you know, and me, same here,
because I've always been ambitious. God had to
do something to get a holy ambition. And there
is a fine line there, isn't there? You know,
it's easy to make it about yourself. While that
sermon series was a turning point for me, all
that that gave me the permission to do is just
obey God. So to hear what God was was leading
me to or to see, you know, this is the direction
he's he's going and to submit to my elders and
to submit to my husband. Right. So I had these
coverings that were protective. But I remember
visualizing myself and I thought when I get to
heaven. I'm going to be that thoroughbred that
finally got a field. I'm going to be the, cause
I was kind of in a stall. I felt like I was like
doing the rope thing and like walking the circle.
And I was, I was fine. And I was like, you know
what? I love what I do and I love people and
I've got people to disciple and I'm just going
to do that till Jesus comes or I go home. So
I was fine. But I always had this feeling that
if I, if the gate opened and I ran, I would be
happy. I would be full. I would be. And I didn't
even know what that was. I didn't have some picture
because still at that point, when I'm that age,
Beth Moore is not on the scene. Like she's just
barely like starting to publish. There wasn't
a category for what I do now. So when I talk
about holy ambition being a turning point for
me, it wasn't like, and then I jotted down that
I would have a podcast and I would speak to thousands
of people. Like I didn't, that was, those weren't
options or categories. It was just the sense
that I wouldn't always be holding myself back,
but that I would be obeying God and running.
And that sounds like obviously that would be
holy, right? Obviously that would be what God
wanted. But when you have so many expectations
and so many fears and you're a people pleaser,
which I was at the time, got rid of that, thankfully.
But at that time it was debilitating. There's
that feels. crazy. And you're living out the
expectations of the people around you. And you
don't have a lot of strong women ahead of you
that have modeled leading and teaching and using
those gifts. So ambition for me was not cluttered
then. Now, today, fast forward, are you kidding
me? If I'm not in check, I will be the greediest.
I can get paid whatever I want to go speak somewhere.
I mean, that happened last night. A church was
like, well, we don't care. We'll pay. just tell
us what and i told my assistant i was like no
like just just tell them whatever they want to
pay is great like there there is there is a mixed
bag in this world of public christianity that
exists now and you've been a part of it longer
than me that that it should terrify us right
um and i and again what i've done is i have built
the most ridiculous accountability i mean It's
embarrassing. We show our finances to a group
of people. We show our tithing and giving to
other organizations. They see the numbers, not
just the percentages. They know how much I make
at things. They are watching our hearts and guarding
our hearts because yes, that ambition can turn
dark fast. And we see that everywhere right now.
And, and I think that's where. But at that point
in my life, I couldn't have even handled that
because I couldn't have imagined the opportunities
God's given me today. But he was preparing me
to say yes. And that I had to get over my own
fears, other people's expectations, and really
believe that he had a story for me to live and
that I didn't want to miss it. And what was it
about the content? I mean, for those who are
thinking, holy ambition, what are you all really
talking about? Maybe a quick review. It's really
the profile of Nehemiah's life, who's basically
a business guy living in the lap of luxury. And
so God takes this leader into a situation that
other people had tried. Nothing happened. He
dislocates his heart, and then he recognizes
he can't do it. He has this broken spirit and
desperate dependency of prayer. Takes a radical
step of faith, the third thing where he risks
his life. And then, you know, it's not all mystical
and spiritual. He comes up with a strategic plan
and organizes people and makes a personal commitment
of what's my role on the wall. And then, you
know, the American version of that is then everything
goes great. The biblical version is he gets personally
attacked from within. People are killing him
from all sides. Yes. And that's my story. I think
that's every leader's story. And so as you were
kind of. Going through first, it's okay to be
ambitious for God, holy ambition, and to dream
and do what he wants you to do. Well, then there's
kind of the process. First, what dislocated your
heart? I mean, what was it that like this, I
either get so mad because it's not happening,
or when I think about it, I cry when I think
of the need that is unmet. And you can't do everything,
but it's just like my name's on this. God, if
you would let me. Tell me how that happened,
because to me, that's how it gets birthed. A
hundred percent. And my heart was dislocated
the minute I was saved. And that's why I was
so passionate. was I wanted people to know Jesus.
I saw hell and heaven felt real to me. The war
felt, I could just see it happening everywhere
I looked. So the bondage that I saw women specifically
in, and still to this day, that it haunts me.
I walk into a room to speak, regardless of the
size, and there's a part of me that is going,
I feel the darkness, right? Like I can sense
that people are in bondage and stuck. So I mean,
I mean, I would use a stronger word than dislocated.
I was haunted. Like I was just, I could not escape
this burden and it is burning in my bones. So
while the positive is like, I can't believe I
have a savior like this. The negative is I'm
around people every single day that don't have
that. And so that, I mean, I'm an evangelist
at heart. Like that, that is where my heart was
dislocated. It was, it was everybody I met after
I loved Jesus. It was just, I'm, I'm grieved
by it. So, so I think what, That was the first
thing. And it was just something I lived with.
And yet I am strategic and I am creative and
I'm ADD and I think out of the box. And so how
to reach people and how to bring the gospel to
people, it was like technical. I had ideas and
I had passions and creative ways to do that.
What you did and what the content did was like,
hey, take the lid off. Like, where have you...
just put a lid on your passions, your gifts,
your dreams, your, um, your personality. Like,
where have you just limited what God could do?
And I remember just going, oh, everywhere, everywhere.
And, and I remember what, what got my husband
though, because he wasn't as limited by that
was, wow, I am, I'm really strategic and I could.
I could serve God and help God in more unique
ways than just pastoring. Because we were in
seminary at the time and he was thinking out
of the box about, gosh, I'm a good leader. I
would say that's his main thing is he's a coach
at heart and he's just a really excellent executor
and leader. And he does that now for lots of
different companies. He is a serial entrepreneur,
we call him, is our loving title, which just
means that he is strategically helping lots of
different companies. That does pay the bills
usually. So praise God for that. Sounds like
it wouldn't or doesn't, but it does. And so all
that to say, his story was different with the
continent. It was just feeling valued of, gosh,
I have a part to play on the wall. I have a place
to contribute. And it's okay that it's not. Or
it's okay that it's not, you know, whatever his
picture of ministry was at the time. So I think
it redeemed business for him. Throughout his
life, he is a thread of ministry business that
is really powerful. So he actually sees himself
still in ministry, but yet he is not vocationally
paid to do ministry. And I think all of that
came from that time in his life. Giving ourselves
permission to think differently about our gifts
and our calling and how we could play parts on
the wall of building the kingdom was a huge part
of it. Well, you can tell him that his early
probing as we spent some time together and then
I was pastoring for a number of years before
it dawned on me. We developed a thing called
Prime Movers where it's literally we take high
capacity people, get them in a room together
and sort of. clear away all the clutter of influence,
affluence, all that, and say, wow, you know,
why don't you minister to one another and identify
what that holy ambition is and not just talk
about it or intend it or do it later. It can
happen in and through your business, in and through
your life right now. And that's why, you know,
we want people to realize you don't have to be
a pastor or speak to thousands of women in, what,
140 -some countries. To have a holy ambition.
I mean, my wife's holy ambition, I mean, she
wrote hers out, was an investment in our kids
and what would happen in their life and through
their life. And be honest, when I see my four
kids, I'm glad what I've gotten to do, but their
impact and their spheres of influence, I think,
will far outweigh mine. And as a result of that,
there's just... Tons of other moms. It doesn't
always have to be. I think sometimes people get
the idea it's big or famous or a lot. No, it's
your part on the wall, but it's outside of these
invisible expectations that, well, only someone
else could do this or do that. I don't know if
men struggle with this as much as women, but
women do tend to go one way or the other. Right.
And I think that's what we're talking about here
is a tension of. obedience to what God's called
me to, to what is he telling me to do? And, and
so for me, it would have been disobedient to
push away the dreams and the visions that he
was building up in me at the same time for your
wife, it would have been disobedient to like
seek book deals and try to join your radio show.
You know what I'm saying? So I think what people
need to hear us say is God's. story and his creativity
is unique for each person and what's ironic is
so many people will ask me like i want to be
you like what do you how did how did you get
to do what you do and i'm like first of all i
always say what what do you think i do and then
the next thing i say is well i spent 15 years
in a living room making disciples and when i
get to heaven i believe that will be the thing
that i'm probably most rewarded for and that
the lives that And I still, I just pulled back
together a group of seven. It's been like a year
or two that I haven't been able to have that.
And I've kept that throughout my ministry growing.
And I know without a doubt that stuff out there
that I'm known for, that will probably burn up,
right? That I've already received reward for.
So even when you're called to the big, it's not
about the big. And for me, it still is about
that living room. And they get my priority. It's
about my office and my team. And I tell them
all the time, I'm like, listen. I won't be held
accountable for the million people we reach through
this conference. I will be for y 'all. And if
y 'all are growing up in the faith, and if y
'all are loving Jesus more because of time with
me. So I think it's even when it gets big, and
yet I think it's important, and especially now,
Chip, back then, that kind of ambition wasn't
readily even thought of, right? But now, that
is the first thing thought of with the generation
coming, growing up on social media, is I want
to have a big influence. I want to have a big
platform. And, and I, I think it'll be really
powerful conversation because it's refining that
ambition, right? I don't look at my daughters
and think they don't have enough ambition. That's
not, you know, people would have looked at me
that way at that age, but, but now I'm looking
at them and going, let's, let's turn that ambition
into something holy. And, and so I think it's,
it's, yeah, it's just a lot of tension, which
is what it is to follow God of just holding all
those tensions and embracing them. And I think
that second part that I work with a lot of business
people, we have both men and women. And people
are very successful and they have a lot of gifts.
And usually when you have gifts and capacity
and work really hard, you end up in positions
of leadership and often with wealth. I mean,
those are some things. And yet the turning point
I've watched so often is. That's what you can
do with your energy and your gift and you make
it happen. And often that missing moment of God's
hand is that moment of the broken spirit where
you come to the end of yourself. And often it
happens as the ministry starts growing and you
have these private moments. It's just like, I'm
overwhelmed. I can't do this. And I think that
gets largely reflected in our prayer life. in
our personal time with God, and then, you know,
maybe one, two, or three of the closest, closest
friends that you can absolutely be vulnerable
with because there's this outside person at whatever
stage, and then there's this very real coming
to the grips of, God, if this is not about you,
and he asks us, it seems, at incremental stages
to take steps of faith. If it doesn't work, you
have way more than egg on your face. Sometimes
it's relocating. Sometimes it's like trusting
God for money. What are some of the challenges
as you have now walked through the journey? Your
world has really changed. You know, I think one
of the biggest misconceptions about anything
that succeeds is. that it was up and to the right,
that it was just successful and turned it up.
And I would say largely numerically and just
in every way, that is true. On paper, that is
true. Behind the scenes, it has been horrific.
And I don't use that word lightly because I know
people listening know horrific things in their
lives. But I remember when we launched If Gathering.
The reason we did, I did not want to do it. I
did not want to run an organization. I still
struggled with wanting to be a stay -at -home
mom and not wanting to have too much ambition.
I still was fighting those battles. I just, I
wanted to control it and keep it small. I wanted
to write a few books, which I've been asked to
do and sign. And I wanted to build, I wanted
the thing that I pictured that could reach this
generation to exist, but I didn't want to be
the one that builds it. So I just kept giving
it away. I kept giving it to ministries that
already had platforms and said, this is what
I think you need to do for the next generation.
But it became clear that I was called to build
it. And I remember before we're about to sign
for the 501c3, I met with a mentor of mine. who
a lot of people would know. And I was on my knees
and she was praying over me. And she said, I
see a seed and the seed is doing this and the
seed is doing this. And she was just praying
this really prophetic, powerful prayer over me.
And I'm like, okay, like, you know, I guess I
need to do this. And at the same time, my friend
called me, one of my best friends and said, hey,
I just had a vision and she's not super spiritual.
And she said, I was, I was getting a massage.
I was about to fall asleep. And she said, I pictured
God picking you up and digging a hole and putting
you in the ground and covering you up like you
were a seed. And I pull over and I need it. You
know, God rarely does this, but I pulled over
my car and I pulled out my computer and I typed,
I was like, God, I will like, kind of like a
contract. Like I will, I will do this. I will
obey you. I'll start if gathering. So we, I get
home, we file the paperwork, you know, I I'm
in, she has a massive stroke. within a week of
that like after a week after and can't speak
and she's my best friend that began for me a
dumpster fire that of five years so those five
years were when everything was being born but
but everything in our life it felt like was falling
apart my husband is walking through depression
and and our family is going through so much hardship
a lot of which I can't share my my um My extended
family was, it was the darkest season in our
lives. It felt like I had signed something with
God and said, I'll do what you call me to do.
And in doing so, we became like the bullseye
of attack, right? And it's that picture of on
the playground, we used to play a game where
it's a horrible game where you grab hands and
you twist each other's arms until somebody cried
mercy. And I remember one night, I remember that's
what I felt. And I, and I cried mercy. And I
was like, I'm out. Like, this is too bad. Too
many people I love that I'm this close to are
under attack. Like I'm out. And, and I don't
remember like the answer to that moment of, well,
how did you persevere is not clear to me. I don't
remember. I remember that moment. I don't remember
how I got out of bed the next day, how I didn't
stop the movement of God that was already happening.
But I. I wanted to, and I can say that in those
five years, um, what God did. And I will, I will
always thank him. I remember when I started and
I signed my foot before I would sign on the line
of that book deal, I reached out to somebody
I trust. And I said, I'm scared. I'm going to
sign this paper and I sell my faith and I'll
be successful on earth because of my love for
Jesus. And I'll get to heaven. And Jesus will
be like, you literally did you, you do. I don't
know you like you, you lost your soul to this.
And. I was so scared of that. And I remember
praying and that sweet friend who I respect said,
Jenny, never lose that fear. Keep being afraid
that this could corrupt you, like power corrupts,
right? And so keep being afraid of that. And
I remember praying, God, I just want to please
you. I don't care if any of this succeeds, if
I am not walking with you and my soul is kept
by you. And I look at that and I think about
that prayer and I'm like, that's how he kept
my soul. I'm going to speak at one of the biggest
conferences in the world. This is like year one
or two of my public ministry. And the night before
I'm helping my friend, Sarah clean out the pantry.
She's drooling. She's in a wheelchair. We're
putting away her pantry. She's in the middle
of a divorce. Just so dark. You can't imagine.
And, and then people are asking me, how do you
not get a big head? Like everything's succeeding.
And I was like, this isn't hard. I mean, I, you
don't feel like a big deal speaking at a big
conference when you've been the night, but I
mean, it makes me cry still, you know, when you're
walking through that kind of darkness. And so
I thank God for the darkness. And I know that
I would have lost my soul. Like he knows how
to persevere us and no, he does not want to torture
the people we love. That is the enemy, right?
Like God hates evil. Like he does not want evil
to win ever, but in the. the timing and the difficulty
that we were facing, he used it to purify my,
my motives and my heart. And, and I thank him
for that because I, I just know I am prone to
all the horrible things that would happen. Let
me pause for a second because one of the predictable
things that happens to people and especially
now is whether they read Holy Ambition or listen
to it or whatever, God bursts things in people
and they sign on the line, it gets clear, and
they take those steps. And we have been so inundated,
and maybe not into some full prosperity, but
this unconscious belief system that if you really
obey God, I mean, if you're really all in. I
mean, your future, your family, your whatever
God, that the prediction in the subconscious
is things are going to be good. There's going
to be blessing. And the fact of the matter is,
long term, that is very, very true. But they
get disillusioned and think either God let me
down or what's wrong or he doesn't care. And
what you and I both from experience. And if we
would read through scripture carefully, the journey
is much more. And this is what I want people
to hear. If God is going to choose to use you
greatly in a broad scope, then he has to deepen
you so that when it happens, the roots of your
life will be sunk in and it will not be getting
caught up in it. And there's only one way to
go there. Right. And it's pain. It's a level
of dependency when you trust when there's no
payoff. In fact, it's negative, it's difficult,
it's painful, and it is spiritual warfare. And
thanks for sharing that. That's a side of your
life not a whole lot of people necessarily will
know. And yet as people begin to dream and think,
it's not, you know, I've had one person say,
well, if it's like that, I don't really want
to do that. And if I knew what it was like, I
wouldn't have ever done it. And I, I would say,
people say sometimes like, would you give it
up today? And I'm like, are you kidding? I'll
give it up. I'll give it up before I ever started.
Me quitting is not, is more of a problem than
it is, you know, something like, oh, my identity's
in it. I'm like, oh no, like attached to this
calling has been such grief and such difficulty
and such pain that it's more likely to slip through
my fingers than for me to grab it too tight.
And I love that because that was my biggest fear.
So God's protected me. And I think he honors,
you know, Solomon prayed for wisdom and God gave
it. When you pray for something that you want,
a pure heart, a humble heart, you'll get it.
And I think that I, and I don't regret that,
right? So while when the day comes to close up,
if or to retire or to be done, I'll say yes and
amen. But I, at the same time, I'm like, gosh,
so much fruit has come from it and obedience.
It's his vision and his plan. I'm stewarding
this thing, right? And I'll stay in because I
told him I would. And he's kept his promise,
right? He's kept his promise to purify my heart
and to make me more like him as I've gone. And
he's used the thing I thought would crumble me
and distract me and take me away from my family
and away from God. And he's enriched our family.
And he has built up the faith of our family.
And he's built up my faith. Again, I have weakness
everywhere and we can talk about today, like
my sin, but I see in general this God who has
protected us and protected me only because it
was his plan and we weren't chasing it and trying
to make something happen. Yeah, I think this
idea that I've got to get a platform is the wrong
place to start, but it's everywhere as opposed
to, God, what do you want me to do? Lordship,
I'll do whatever you want me to do. And here's
the thing is always there's cost, but there is
reward. You said that word fruit and you just
see these ripple effects of the women that you've
helped and what happens in their marriages. And
guess what? Those kids get a different mom and
those single people have a different hope. And
so on the one hand, of course, there's, I mean,
Jesus, it was for the joy set before him, but
he endured the cross. And so we get. I mean,
I want people to know, follow your holy ambition.
Of course, there's a price tag. But I would not
trade it. There is exceedingly great reward.
It's good to walk with God. That's the bottom
line. It is good to walk with God. I don't want.
I don't want to veer off from anything he has
for me because the hardest parts have actually
been the richest and the best parts. You know,
we adopted our youngest son out of obedience.
And that was one of the things God put in our
heart as we pray, Lord, we'll do anything you
want. And, and I mean, you talk about the greatest
blessing to our family's life. He has kept us
close. My college kids come home and we'll probably
move back here because they feel responsible
to help us like send him into the world. Like
he has made our family. Has that been the hardest
journey for him, for our kid and for us? Yes.
But would we ever trade that storyline? I mean,
he has my heart, that boy. I love him so deep.
Cannot imagine our family without him. So it's
kind of like, would I trade the hard for the
good? Never. And all the best parts were hard
and are hard. And I think we can do harder things
than we think. And we need to be people who...
Don't make life choices based on pros and cons
and ease and comfort and hardship, but on obedience
to God, whatever he calls us to do. You remind
me as we think about all of this is it's as basic.
Somehow this has gotten to be what superstars
do or what really, really committed Christians.
Jesus said, if anyone will follow me, anyone,
you want to be a follower. Let him deny himself,
take up his cross, take up her cross, and follow
me. Because if you seek to save your life, I
want my way on my terms, my agenda, my way, you'll
lose it. But if you give up your life, if you
can be the seed that goes into the ground and
dies, it'll bear forth much fruit. And I think
on the journey, I don't know if I have a life
first, but if there's one, I go back to Hebrews
10, 36 says, you have need of endurance. So that
once you have done the will of God, you might
receive what was promised. And so much of what
I hear you saying is, it's a calling of God.
Obedience is the issue. It is very challenging.
You endure. And as you endure, he's probably
changed you more than anyone you've ever spoken
to and all the people around you. And it's the
resurrection fruit that has come out of your
personal journey that gives the authority and
the power. to how God has used you as you speak
and as you write. And it is, it's a, it's a beautiful
thing. Yes. Yeah, it is. And it's, it's fun.
You know, I mean, even would any of my ambition
in my best days ever dream up what God's doing
right now? No way. No, not possible. It's just
only the spirit of God could do the things he's
done. Well, I want to, I want to wrap it up because
I'm thinking, I just, I want to make sure everyone
hears. This is what we do. And this is this is
me asking. So this isn't you telling. Yeah, we
heard 15 years teaching in the living room. So
here's your assignment. Are you ready? What is
what's the impact of if now to the glory of God?
Yeah. Second, how in the world could someone
be involved? And what's what's your heart? What
do you long to see happen? I mean, everything
I do is I build tools and experiences to make
disciples who make disciples. There is no other
goal in my life. Disciple generation is a thing
hanging on my wall. Like that is what I want
to give my life to for the rest of it. And so,
and we do that through the local church and probably
your daughters who lead if gatherings, they do
that through local churches. So we, we do that.
We, we support, we exist as a ministry to support
the local church. And, and so what I love is,
is. It is a group project. I mean, out there,
there's a lot of people like your daughters that
have just said, I will host in my place and I'll
invite my neighbors and friends. And even our
experience, our conference is still just a tool,
right? It's a tool to help build great conversations
around Jesus. And so we keep things simple. We
cross all denominations. I mean, it's absolutely
wild. This last year, we just had our event in
March. We had over 6 ,500 people like your daughters
that hosted events for us across the world. It
reached 144 countries. You know, we don't know
the numbers of how many people are in those,
but then, you know, hundreds of thousands of
people watching individually too. So it's pretty
unbelievable. But what I love is that it's not
me. It's not even our team, even though there's
20 of us in this office that give our lives to
these tools and experiences. It is... all of
those women out there that have said yes. And,
and they do the brave thing. We always say it.
They're the heroes of this ministry because they
brave inviting their friends and their neighbors.
And so anyway, it's, it's so fun. I love working
with women because they do get after it and make
things happen. And it's just been such a fun,
fun journey. So if gathering .com is the place
and then other tools are at Jenny Allen .com
and say both of those just a little bit slower
for our, uh, For our visual learners like me,
instead of the audio learners have it. But just
say them both again for me. It's if, and it's
ifgathering .com. Okay. And Jenny, J -E -N -N
-I -E, Allen, A -L -L -E -N .com. And all of
my tools and resources are in those two places.
And yeah, it's, it is an adventure and we love
women to come of all ages that come alongside
of us. We had 1400 college students host this
year, but then we also have women in their eighties
that are if local leaders. So this is so fun
because it does cross so many barriers and brings
women together. Well, Jenny, thank you for taking
the time and sharing your story for people that
want to find out this. pique their interest.
What is holy ambition? It's a book and part of
this conversation I'm so grateful is, you know,
I wrote that book 20 years ago and to be able
to update for people to see the stories of people
like yourself just brings me great joy. And so
there's an app called Chip Ingram. You just type
my name in the app store or livingontheedge .org
and we'll have someone get with you. Either listen
to the MP3s for free or get it in whatever format
that you want. But could you pray for those people
that find themselves? Yes. You know, I think
God's speaking to me. God, I know you are. I
know you are. And I know that you're doing it
in the same way you've done it since. the very
beginning, you and your spirit are leading people
to obey you. And I look at the scripture and
it's ultimately a story about Jesus, but it's
also a story about a lot of humans that needed
Jesus and stumbled their way through life. And
yet they had something that marked almost all
of them, which was faith. And so God, I pray
for an increase of faith. God, we need it. There
are mountains to climb in this generation. There
are things that need to be built in this generation.
ministries that need to be started in this generation.
There are people that need to hear the gospel
in cubicles and on college campuses and in classrooms,
God, in this generation. So you know. all the
people listening. And what I love is that we
work with you. And so when we do something like
this, God, your spirit is out there in cars and
on walks with people and you're leading people
and you're stirring people and you're causing
them to wonder and be restless. Like, gosh, is
this little idea I have, is this something you
want me to do? And so God, I pray that those
conversations would continue in the days and
the weeks and the hours to come. God, would you
bring people around? Those listening that have
a dream, would you give them team like you've
done for me again and again for Chip? Would you
cause people to take the lid off, to imagine
how to spend their life well in our short time
here? Because we aren't here long. And God, would
you help us kill the idols of our heart, whether
that's approval or comfort or money or success,
whatever it is, power or fear. God, whatever
that thing is that keeps us from obeying you,
would you help it to die? Would we turn and repent
and run from it? And would you give us the power
to do that, the strength to do that? Thank you
that you are the God who never sleeps and that
you are accomplishing your purposes, God, around
us and over us or through us. And so would we
be people that work with you? that we see our
purpose is to submit and obey. I think of the
great hymn, trust and obey for there is no other
way. God, there is no other way. And even if
that leads us into valleys, God, you will be
with us in those valleys. And there is no other
place I would rather be than with you, even in
the darkness. God, thank you that you will spark.
lots of acts of obedience because of this conversation.
And we pray that you would fan into existence
the things that are from you and that need to
exist in Jesus name. Amen. Amen. Jenny, what
a blast. So good to be with you. You too, Chip.
Thank you. You've been listening to Chip's interview
with author and speaker Jenny Allen here on Living
on the Edge. To learn more about Jenny's ministry
or her popular books, go to her website, JennyAllen
.com. That's J -E -N -N -I -E -A -L -L -E -N
.com. Well, before we wrap up, Chip's back with
me to talk about our next series and why you
should join us. Chip? Thanks so much, Dave. Those
of you who've been around living on the edge
very long know that one of our key premises of
life change is the renewing of our mind, Romans
12 too. And Jenny wrote a book called Get Out
of Your Head where she talks about seven toxic
things that literally ruin our mind. And I think
she's got some things to say to all of us, but
especially to some young women and some young
moms who would say, Chip, thanks for inviting
someone who really understands my world. And
memo to you men, as I listened to it, as I read
the book, I got to say, it helped me too. So,
next program, get ready. Jenny Allen. Looking
forward to it. Thanks, Chip. Let me take a quick
second before we go and thank the generous people
who support this ministry every month. Your faithful
gifts help us inspire Christians to live like
Christians. If you haven't partnered with us,
would you prayerfully consider joining the Living
on the Edge team? You can set up a monthly donation
at livingontheedge .org or by calling 888 - Again,
that's 888 -333 -6003 or visit livingontheedge
.org. App listeners tap donate. Well, until next
time, this is Dave Drewy saying thanks for listening
to this edition of Living on the Edge.