WEBVTT 00:00:01.159 --> 00:00:04.099 In any relay race, the speed and conditioning 00:00:04.099 --> 00:00:06.740 of the runners are essential, but the handing 00:00:06.740 --> 00:00:10.480 off of the baton is everything. Every athlete 00:00:10.480 --> 00:00:12.640 pours their heart and soul into their leg of 00:00:12.640 --> 00:00:15.019 the race, but the successful transfer of that 00:00:15.019 --> 00:00:18.199 baton ultimately determines the results. Coming 00:00:18.199 --> 00:00:20.260 up on Living on the Edge, we'll learn how this 00:00:20.260 --> 00:00:22.920 principle applies to passing on our faith to 00:00:22.920 --> 00:00:25.519 the next generation and how Bible -believing 00:00:25.519 --> 00:00:28.710 parents can do it well. I'm Dave Drew, and in 00:00:28.710 --> 00:00:30.969 just a minute, we'll finish up our series Dealing 00:00:30.969 --> 00:00:33.450 with Doubts by sharing the remainder of Chip's 00:00:33.450 --> 00:00:35.850 insightful discussion with author and apologist 00:00:35.850 --> 00:00:38.909 Sean McDowell. Today, they'll highlight the steps 00:00:38.909 --> 00:00:41.789 and valuable resources Christian moms and dads 00:00:41.789 --> 00:00:44.750 can follow to hand that baton of faith off to 00:00:44.750 --> 00:00:47.590 their kids and to generations to come. Well, 00:00:47.609 --> 00:00:49.570 there's a lot to get to, so here again is Chip. 00:00:50.670 --> 00:00:53.670 My background was a lot in psychology, graduate 00:00:53.670 --> 00:00:56.539 school and undergraduate, and When you do the 00:00:56.539 --> 00:01:00.359 research, part of the completely secular research 00:01:00.359 --> 00:01:02.700 about what kind of environments people thrive 00:01:02.700 --> 00:01:07.480 in and what helps them, you constantly come back 00:01:07.480 --> 00:01:11.280 to what the Scripture teaches about what a man 00:01:11.280 --> 00:01:14.819 needs to be and cherishing and caring and protecting 00:01:14.819 --> 00:01:17.780 and loving and what a woman needs to be and what 00:01:17.780 --> 00:01:20.659 they need to do and the mutual submission to 00:01:20.659 --> 00:01:23.060 one another and creating this environment where 00:01:23.879 --> 00:01:26.260 kids can flourish and feel loved and valued. 00:01:26.439 --> 00:01:29.400 And part of the challenge is there's not a lot 00:01:29.400 --> 00:01:31.519 of those kind of models and that family has broken 00:01:31.519 --> 00:01:34.900 down in such a way that a lot of people are looking 00:01:34.900 --> 00:01:38.400 to social media or the culture to try and figure 00:01:38.400 --> 00:01:42.340 out what's up, what's down. What's your counsel 00:01:42.340 --> 00:01:46.209 to... That couple who says, we really want to 00:01:46.209 --> 00:01:49.510 raise our kids in a way that honors God. We know 00:01:49.510 --> 00:01:53.010 they're being bombarded by social media. We don't 00:01:53.010 --> 00:01:55.349 want to be too strict because if we say no, no, 00:01:55.390 --> 00:01:57.590 no to everything, and on the other hand, there 00:01:57.590 --> 00:02:00.829 are real dangers. Sean, you're an apologist. 00:02:00.870 --> 00:02:04.109 You're a dad. You work with students. Please 00:02:04.109 --> 00:02:06.810 give me some wise counsel about raising my kids 00:02:06.810 --> 00:02:09.650 in a way that will help them flourish. Going 00:02:09.650 --> 00:02:12.889 back to at least 1972, and this comes from Christian 00:02:12.889 --> 00:02:16.270 Smith, a sociologist at Notre Dame, in his book, 00:02:16.330 --> 00:02:19.509 Handing Down the Faith. He says the data consistently 00:02:19.509 --> 00:02:21.909 shows that parents have the most significant 00:02:21.909 --> 00:02:25.990 influence on the faith of their kids. Now, Netflix 00:02:25.990 --> 00:02:28.710 and TikTok and the educational system in Hollywood 00:02:28.710 --> 00:02:33.310 has an influence, but not the same level of influence 00:02:33.310 --> 00:02:37.080 parents can and do have. So what is kind of the 00:02:37.080 --> 00:02:40.000 data in scripture show the best chance of passing 00:02:40.000 --> 00:02:41.919 on our faith? And by the way, there's no formula 00:02:41.919 --> 00:02:44.060 to do this. You can do everything right and kids 00:02:44.060 --> 00:02:46.259 have free will. I mean, I was thinking to those 00:02:46.259 --> 00:02:48.639 parents earlier when you said you wept about 00:02:48.639 --> 00:02:52.180 your son and what he shared with you. One of 00:02:52.180 --> 00:02:53.900 the things I tell parents, I say, you know, if 00:02:53.900 --> 00:02:55.939 your kids are not following the Lord, remember 00:02:55.939 --> 00:02:59.120 God's heart is more broken than your heart or 00:02:59.120 --> 00:03:03.199 my heart could ever be. Jesus wept over Jerusalem. 00:03:04.060 --> 00:03:07.300 So that's one place to start with. God is pursuing 00:03:07.300 --> 00:03:10.680 and seeking them in ways we can't and won't understand 00:03:10.680 --> 00:03:13.180 until the story's already done. But step number 00:03:13.180 --> 00:03:15.560 one is parents. So how do parents instill that 00:03:15.560 --> 00:03:18.539 faith? Well, number one, we have to model a faith 00:03:18.539 --> 00:03:21.319 that our kids find attractive. And this is exactly 00:03:21.319 --> 00:03:24.460 what your son said to you. It doesn't matter 00:03:24.460 --> 00:03:27.639 what we say if we don't really believe it and 00:03:27.639 --> 00:03:31.340 live it out. Of course, not perfectly. but the 00:03:31.340 --> 00:03:33.580 kind of life that our kids just find attractive. 00:03:34.479 --> 00:03:37.439 That's step number one is to model it. Number 00:03:37.439 --> 00:03:41.879 two, build relationships with your kids. Intimate, 00:03:41.900 --> 00:03:44.639 close relationships. I actually co -wrote a book 00:03:44.639 --> 00:03:46.740 with a friend of mine. It was called So the Next 00:03:46.740 --> 00:03:49.240 Generation Will Know. And we had one whole chapter 00:03:49.240 --> 00:03:52.199 in this. He's a cold case detective, J. Warner 00:03:52.199 --> 00:03:54.759 Wallace, former atheist. He actually became a 00:03:54.759 --> 00:03:56.479 Christian when he examined the Gospel of Mark 00:03:56.479 --> 00:03:59.120 through forensic analysis and was like, this 00:03:59.120 --> 00:04:02.400 is reliable testimony. Well, we had a whole chapter 00:04:02.400 --> 00:04:04.500 on all the studies we could find on why kids 00:04:04.500 --> 00:04:07.000 disengage the faith and tried to bring it all 00:04:07.000 --> 00:04:09.479 together. And to me, the most significant study 00:04:09.479 --> 00:04:12.960 I'm aware of comes from a sociologist at USC. 00:04:13.860 --> 00:04:16.740 He wrote a book about a decade ago called Faith 00:04:16.740 --> 00:04:20.279 and Families. And it's published with Oxford 00:04:20.279 --> 00:04:25.089 Press. And they studied 3 ,500 people. 35 years, 00:04:25.310 --> 00:04:29.329 four generations. And what they said, the most 00:04:29.329 --> 00:04:32.329 significant factor in faith transmission is a, 00:04:32.370 --> 00:04:37.370 quote, Chip, warm relationship with the father. 00:04:38.149 --> 00:04:41.089 Number one. Wow. Now, it doesn't make the mother 00:04:41.089 --> 00:04:43.629 unimportant. That's not the point. But sociologically, 00:04:43.930 --> 00:04:46.910 a man tends to be more of a wild card. And there 00:04:46.910 --> 00:04:48.870 might be something about the father taking the 00:04:48.870 --> 00:04:51.709 lead the way God wired us. But nonetheless, number 00:04:51.709 --> 00:04:55.139 one, model. Number two. Build intimate, close 00:04:55.139 --> 00:04:58.180 relationships with your kids. And by the way, 00:04:58.199 --> 00:05:00.019 in that study, they also said that grandparents 00:05:00.019 --> 00:05:03.199 are playing an increasingly significant role 00:05:03.199 --> 00:05:08.319 in faith transmission of their kids. Third is 00:05:08.319 --> 00:05:12.600 have meaningful conversations about faith issues 00:05:12.600 --> 00:05:16.680 with your kids. Not lectures, just conversations. 00:05:17.220 --> 00:05:19.279 Whether it's like what I'm doing with my son 00:05:19.279 --> 00:05:21.680 at breakfast. whether it's over the dinner table. 00:05:22.060 --> 00:05:24.399 Some people do formal devotions. I don't really 00:05:24.399 --> 00:05:26.180 do formal devotions. Maybe in the morning, my 00:05:26.180 --> 00:05:27.779 son and I are doing that kind of thing a little 00:05:27.779 --> 00:05:31.019 bit. But just as opportunities arise in the rhythm 00:05:31.019 --> 00:05:34.019 of life, having conversations about faith. So 00:05:34.019 --> 00:05:36.240 I shared this with Jim Daly. We were interviewing 00:05:36.240 --> 00:05:38.279 him on our podcast. I said, Jim, here's what 00:05:38.279 --> 00:05:40.699 I think. Number one, model. Number two, build 00:05:40.699 --> 00:05:43.199 relationships. Number three, have spiritual conversations. 00:05:43.579 --> 00:05:47.240 He goes, I agree. And fourth, if you make mistakes. 00:05:48.160 --> 00:05:51.600 Go to your kids and own it and model what it 00:05:51.600 --> 00:05:54.120 means to show humility and forgiveness. And I 00:05:54.120 --> 00:05:56.060 thought I'm officially going to have to add that 00:05:56.060 --> 00:05:59.019 to my list now because Jim said it from Focus 00:05:59.019 --> 00:06:02.000 on the Family. So I think that's statistically 00:06:02.000 --> 00:06:04.000 speaking and biblically, you find a lot of this 00:06:04.000 --> 00:06:06.579 in Deuteronomy 6 .4. That's what I think as a 00:06:06.579 --> 00:06:08.920 whole, the research really shows. And of course, 00:06:08.939 --> 00:06:10.660 getting your kids into a church. I mean, there's 00:06:10.660 --> 00:06:13.240 other things you want to do on top of that, but 00:06:13.240 --> 00:06:15.500 that's the bottom line, what I think the data 00:06:15.500 --> 00:06:19.579 points to. Well, I've pastored for about 35 or 00:06:19.579 --> 00:06:23.019 40 years, and I can tell you that it's true, 00:06:23.160 --> 00:06:26.740 anecdotally. I meet so many parents who drop 00:06:26.740 --> 00:06:30.459 their kids off at church, who have a faith that 00:06:30.459 --> 00:06:34.000 semi -matters, but it's not really attractive. 00:06:34.639 --> 00:06:37.360 And the disconnect is, you know, I put them in 00:06:37.360 --> 00:06:39.220 a Christian school, I dropped them at the high 00:06:39.220 --> 00:06:41.949 school group. I've convinced them even to go 00:06:41.949 --> 00:06:44.610 to a Christian college. And they're now, you 00:06:44.610 --> 00:06:46.670 know, three years, five years out of college 00:06:46.670 --> 00:06:48.709 or in the middle of college. They're living with 00:06:48.709 --> 00:06:51.069 their boyfriend or they've come out of this or 00:06:51.069 --> 00:06:54.029 come out of that. And they can't make the connection 00:06:54.029 --> 00:06:57.990 that behavior always really reveals our genuine 00:06:57.990 --> 00:07:03.110 beliefs. So behavior said how we appeared in 00:07:03.110 --> 00:07:05.569 front of other people mattered most. Behavior 00:07:05.569 --> 00:07:10.269 said work and money and where we lived. And what 00:07:10.269 --> 00:07:13.750 we owned mattered most. And you can say whatever 00:07:13.750 --> 00:07:16.170 you want. You can go to church. You can send 00:07:16.170 --> 00:07:18.970 them to all kinds of schools. But it is those 00:07:18.970 --> 00:07:22.629 connections of the heart and where they see you 00:07:22.629 --> 00:07:25.769 trusting Christ. And I will say, I think the 00:07:25.769 --> 00:07:28.649 one that Jim hit on, and maybe it's because I 00:07:28.649 --> 00:07:31.310 didn't grow up as a believer, but when I became 00:07:31.310 --> 00:07:34.350 a believer and then I became a dad, and I happened 00:07:34.350 --> 00:07:37.250 to have the privilege of adopting my older two 00:07:37.250 --> 00:07:41.250 boys. And it's a long story. Many of the Living 00:07:41.250 --> 00:07:43.529 on the Edge people know, but my wife came to 00:07:43.529 --> 00:07:46.629 Christ after she was abandoned. So when I got 00:07:46.629 --> 00:07:49.649 married, I became an instant father. And it was 00:07:49.649 --> 00:07:54.790 like, I have no idea. My dad was a good guy, 00:07:54.990 --> 00:07:58.149 a World War II vet, Guam, Iwo Jima, purple heart, 00:07:58.370 --> 00:08:01.670 deeply damaged, alcoholic. So he tried really 00:08:01.670 --> 00:08:04.389 hard, but I didn't learn how to be a dad. And 00:08:04.389 --> 00:08:08.029 so it was like starting from scratch. I wrote 00:08:08.029 --> 00:08:11.509 my thesis in seminary on the role and responsibility 00:08:11.509 --> 00:08:14.089 of the father in transmitting values in the family. 00:08:14.550 --> 00:08:17.569 As I wrote that, one of the things I came to 00:08:17.569 --> 00:08:22.810 was, when you blow it, own it. If I got a dollar 00:08:22.810 --> 00:08:25.189 for every time I had to apologize to my kids 00:08:25.189 --> 00:08:30.370 for, oh, I disciplined you and what you did was 00:08:30.370 --> 00:08:33.090 really, really wrong, but how I did it and the 00:08:33.090 --> 00:08:37.190 tone of my voice and I was angry. When you get 00:08:37.190 --> 00:08:39.350 on one knee to a three - or four -year -old and 00:08:39.350 --> 00:08:41.710 tell them you're sorry with tears in your eyes 00:08:41.710 --> 00:08:44.669 and they sit on your lap and they apologize to 00:08:44.669 --> 00:08:47.350 you and you apologize to them and you learn to 00:08:47.350 --> 00:08:50.629 talk to Jesus together, that was—we were just 00:08:50.629 --> 00:08:53.429 learning as a family. But I think those are the 00:08:53.429 --> 00:08:56.110 kind of things that really help kids understand 00:08:56.110 --> 00:09:01.990 this is real. This is from the heart. Four things 00:09:01.990 --> 00:09:04.649 you shared I think are going to be a great value. 00:09:04.750 --> 00:09:07.450 Now, I got to follow up with if someone said, 00:09:07.629 --> 00:09:11.129 look, Sean, I'm really committed as a grandparent 00:09:11.129 --> 00:09:13.889 or as a pastor. Maybe I've been doing this for 00:09:13.889 --> 00:09:16.230 a while. I'm a little out of touch. Would you 00:09:16.230 --> 00:09:19.809 walk me through maybe the top four or five books 00:09:19.809 --> 00:09:23.409 as you see what's happening in the culture that 00:09:23.409 --> 00:09:26.789 would really help parents and grandparents deal 00:09:26.789 --> 00:09:30.289 with the issues that they're facing? please at 00:09:30.289 --> 00:09:33.710 least include a couple or more of your own. Fair 00:09:33.710 --> 00:09:36.649 enough. So when it comes to kids, there's a relational 00:09:36.649 --> 00:09:40.250 component and there's an intellectual component. 00:09:40.850 --> 00:09:43.289 You know, it says in Thessalonians, Paul says, 00:09:43.370 --> 00:09:45.350 we not only gave you the gospel, the content, 00:09:45.570 --> 00:09:52.049 but our very own lives relationship. So relationally, 00:09:52.049 --> 00:09:54.509 I mean, basically your question, I've been asked 00:09:54.509 --> 00:09:57.879 this for almost 20 years plus. Is there any book 00:09:57.879 --> 00:10:00.299 for parents, Christian school teachers, grandparents 00:10:00.299 --> 00:10:03.879 on how to pass on the faith that's biblically 00:10:03.879 --> 00:10:07.179 rooted but practical? So finally, J. Werner Wallace 00:10:07.179 --> 00:10:09.360 and I wrote that. It's called So the Next Generation 00:10:09.360 --> 00:10:14.000 Will Know. It's a how -to book. It's like practical 00:10:14.000 --> 00:10:18.500 steps to take. with this generation. So that's 00:10:18.500 --> 00:10:19.919 probably the number one. And I wrote it because 00:10:19.919 --> 00:10:21.879 I just couldn't find a book that I felt was out 00:10:21.879 --> 00:10:23.779 there. And it was one of the easiest books to 00:10:23.779 --> 00:10:25.299 write because it's stuff I think about and I 00:10:25.299 --> 00:10:28.460 try to do in my whole life. So that's the relational 00:10:28.460 --> 00:10:31.059 side. And gosh, there's some other great books 00:10:31.059 --> 00:10:34.179 on building relationships with kids too. But 00:10:34.179 --> 00:10:37.139 I, you know, on the truth side, you know, more 00:10:37.139 --> 00:10:39.399 than a carpenter, we just updated it together. 00:10:39.950 --> 00:10:43.649 My dad's book he wrote in 1977. And worldwide, 00:10:43.789 --> 00:10:46.769 it's like 30 million in print, I think 120 languages. 00:10:47.649 --> 00:10:50.029 And it's one of the most widely read Christian 00:10:50.029 --> 00:10:52.830 books of the past, I guess, 50 years almost. 00:10:53.230 --> 00:10:56.330 We just did an update this past fall where it's 00:10:56.330 --> 00:10:59.049 better, it's shorter, it's crisper than ever. 00:10:59.899 --> 00:11:02.679 And so that's an easy book to read with a young 00:11:02.679 --> 00:11:05.100 person, just chapter by chapter, section by section. 00:11:05.220 --> 00:11:07.519 And it's framed with my dad's story and journey. 00:11:07.639 --> 00:11:09.600 So it's not just a book of facts. I think that's 00:11:09.600 --> 00:11:12.500 one reason why it's so interesting. The other 00:11:12.500 --> 00:11:14.360 one is there's something called the Apologetic 00:11:14.360 --> 00:11:17.840 Study Bible for Students. And I had a chance 00:11:17.840 --> 00:11:19.700 to be the general editor on this with a whole 00:11:19.700 --> 00:11:22.639 team putting it together. And it's a study Bible. 00:11:22.899 --> 00:11:25.039 And it's a great study Bible that has notes at 00:11:25.039 --> 00:11:26.659 the bottom. But we have all these features like 00:11:26.659 --> 00:11:30.179 little archaeological finds. Sidebars, there's 00:11:30.179 --> 00:11:33.460 dozens and dozens of them on like common twisted 00:11:33.460 --> 00:11:36.299 scriptures that Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses 00:11:36.299 --> 00:11:39.559 or Muslims will do and quick responses to them 00:11:39.559 --> 00:11:42.960 kind of put in there. We add stories of key apologists 00:11:42.960 --> 00:11:46.220 like C .S. Lewis and my father's story and others 00:11:46.220 --> 00:11:48.919 are placed in there because stories are interesting 00:11:48.919 --> 00:11:52.000 and encouraging. But the main feature is just 00:11:52.000 --> 00:11:55.299 the top 140 questions this generation is asking 00:11:55.299 --> 00:12:00.000 about the Bible, about science, about homosexuality 00:12:00.000 --> 00:12:03.080 and transgender, about hell, about evil. And 00:12:03.080 --> 00:12:05.440 I got this from talking to students. I talked 00:12:05.440 --> 00:12:07.419 to youth pastors. I mean, I narrowed down, like, 00:12:07.460 --> 00:12:09.799 things like, is it okay to get a tattoo? Like, 00:12:09.820 --> 00:12:11.720 students are asking that. What does the Bible 00:12:11.720 --> 00:12:15.139 say about that? And we got some of the best apologies 00:12:15.139 --> 00:12:18.549 to answer them in just one page. So I've told 00:12:18.549 --> 00:12:20.330 a lot of parents, I'm like, what a resource. 00:12:20.769 --> 00:12:23.629 Just read this with your kid and say, do you 00:12:23.629 --> 00:12:26.190 agree? Do you disagree? What stands out to you? 00:12:26.309 --> 00:12:28.210 What's interesting to you? What would you have 00:12:28.210 --> 00:12:30.950 added? And you just talk with them one by one. 00:12:31.330 --> 00:12:35.309 That's 140 conversations with young people. Wow. 00:12:35.590 --> 00:12:38.370 And so that's in part why we did it. But I also 00:12:38.370 --> 00:12:40.929 recommend ministries like Stand to Reason by 00:12:40.929 --> 00:12:43.129 Greg Kokel. Every parent should be listening 00:12:43.129 --> 00:12:45.909 to the Stand to Reason podcast. Now, as far as 00:12:45.909 --> 00:12:48.820 talking to kids about sex, My parents wrote a 00:12:48.820 --> 00:12:51.340 book. The title is Straight Talk With Your Kids 00:12:51.340 --> 00:12:55.679 About Sex. It's the best guide I'm aware of for 00:12:55.679 --> 00:12:58.519 parents. Here's how you do this. Here's when 00:12:58.519 --> 00:13:00.639 you start. Here's what it looks like. And just 00:13:00.639 --> 00:13:04.100 a wonderful practical guide, Straight Talk With 00:13:04.100 --> 00:13:07.100 Your Kids About Sex by Josh and Dottie McDowell. 00:13:07.690 --> 00:13:09.509 One of my favorite books I wrote is called Chasing 00:13:09.509 --> 00:13:12.769 Love. And I wrote it for my own kids. Oh, wow. 00:13:13.009 --> 00:13:14.929 Because I couldn't find a book that I thought 00:13:14.929 --> 00:13:18.009 was on relationships and dating and sex that 00:13:18.009 --> 00:13:22.090 was biblically based and relevant to the pornography 00:13:22.090 --> 00:13:25.509 just phenomenon today, to the transgender conversation, 00:13:25.690 --> 00:13:29.190 to questions like living together. So that's 00:13:29.190 --> 00:13:31.470 a book on relationships. This week I had a parent 00:13:31.470 --> 00:13:33.230 say, I'm just reading it chapter by chapter with 00:13:33.230 --> 00:13:36.429 my kids. And I was like, amen. Like, I just wish. 00:13:37.190 --> 00:13:40.210 More parents would do that. That's how you relationally 00:13:40.210 --> 00:13:43.129 pass on the truth. And I think most kids want 00:13:43.129 --> 00:13:45.830 to have these kinds of conversations. I really 00:13:45.830 --> 00:13:49.570 do. If we listen, we do it respectfully. We don't 00:13:49.570 --> 00:13:52.029 force stuff on them. I really think they want 00:13:52.029 --> 00:13:54.490 to have these kinds of conversations. Well, I 00:13:54.490 --> 00:13:56.830 would really affirm that. And the thing I've 00:13:56.830 --> 00:14:00.110 told parents is they're going to have the conversation 00:14:00.110 --> 00:14:02.190 and they're going to hear about all of this. 00:14:02.620 --> 00:14:05.379 and they're going to hear it from someone other 00:14:05.379 --> 00:14:07.960 than you unless you take the initiative. That's 00:14:07.960 --> 00:14:11.399 right. And in our day, it probably needs to start 00:14:11.399 --> 00:14:16.879 far younger than you think because I read a study 00:14:16.879 --> 00:14:19.419 recently where one of the number one issues of 00:14:19.419 --> 00:14:22.639 fifth and sixth graders was sex, that pornography 00:14:22.639 --> 00:14:27.059 addiction starts as early as 11 years old. Some 00:14:27.059 --> 00:14:29.120 of us from our background, you think, how could 00:14:29.120 --> 00:14:33.120 that be possible? And yet it's a very different 00:14:33.120 --> 00:14:35.440 world now. I think that's right, which is why 00:14:35.440 --> 00:14:37.620 one of the things my parents point out in that 00:14:37.620 --> 00:14:41.980 book is start the conversation early. Start it 00:14:41.980 --> 00:14:45.480 early. In age -appropriate ways, but start it 00:14:45.480 --> 00:14:47.820 early. And again, if you're modeling a marriage, 00:14:47.940 --> 00:14:49.419 you know one thing my parents would say to me, 00:14:49.440 --> 00:14:52.080 Chip? Sometimes when I was younger, when I wanted 00:14:52.080 --> 00:14:53.840 to do something I thought was a good idea and 00:14:53.840 --> 00:14:57.009 my parents did not. My dad would say, he'd say, 00:14:57.110 --> 00:14:59.710 son, do you want the kind of future marriage 00:14:59.710 --> 00:15:04.070 and relationship that your mom and I have? Now, 00:15:04.110 --> 00:15:06.070 you only ask that question if you know the answer 00:15:06.070 --> 00:15:09.049 in advance. Right. And I'd say, yes. He'd say 00:15:09.049 --> 00:15:12.090 that if you want that, the decision you're about 00:15:12.090 --> 00:15:15.509 to make is going to set you back and make it 00:15:15.509 --> 00:15:18.990 more painful and difficult than you know to get 00:15:18.990 --> 00:15:23.149 there in life. don't do it, son, because I love 00:15:23.149 --> 00:15:25.629 you and I can see how it would affect you. And 00:15:25.629 --> 00:15:27.190 I'm not saying I always listen. I still might've 00:15:27.190 --> 00:15:29.809 done stupid things, but it's like pointing back 00:15:29.809 --> 00:15:33.370 towards your modeling, leaning into the relationship 00:15:33.370 --> 00:15:36.610 that you have. And that, you know, that really 00:15:36.610 --> 00:15:40.830 worked for me, at least. As I would analyze our 00:15:40.830 --> 00:15:43.450 conversation, which, you know, just because of 00:15:43.450 --> 00:15:45.789 the way my brain works, I do stuff like that 00:15:45.789 --> 00:15:48.350 even when I'm in it. If I was on the outside 00:15:48.350 --> 00:15:51.409 of our conversation and, I would think about, 00:15:51.590 --> 00:15:54.009 okay, now this was about apologetics. This is 00:15:54.009 --> 00:15:56.990 about dealing with doubt. And as I'm listening 00:15:56.990 --> 00:16:01.990 to you too, it seems like rather than 75 new 00:16:01.990 --> 00:16:04.490 facts and the Bible says this about that, and 00:16:04.490 --> 00:16:06.710 here's all the things that you need to fill your 00:16:06.710 --> 00:16:09.870 kids' heads with, or here's the seven best arguments 00:16:09.870 --> 00:16:14.230 for God in this, you guys spent a lot of time 00:16:14.230 --> 00:16:19.120 talking about relationships, connection. authenticity, 00:16:19.580 --> 00:16:23.039 having genuine, real answers, being very open, 00:16:23.259 --> 00:16:27.840 getting resources, taking time to actually study, 00:16:28.080 --> 00:16:31.899 talk, read, have conversations. And it really 00:16:31.899 --> 00:16:35.940 begs the question of building a home life and 00:16:35.940 --> 00:16:39.580 building a relationship where this matters more 00:16:39.580 --> 00:16:42.639 than being in the car four times a week for youth 00:16:42.639 --> 00:16:47.080 sports or for work that takes you from Well, 00:16:47.179 --> 00:16:48.919 I have to leave the house at 6 a .m. to beat 00:16:48.919 --> 00:16:52.379 traffic, and I get home about 8 .30, and a couple 00:16:52.379 --> 00:16:55.100 nights a week I get to tuck my kids in. I've 00:16:55.100 --> 00:16:57.820 had that conversation with a lot of very committed 00:16:57.820 --> 00:17:02.179 Christians, very successful executives, to which 00:17:02.179 --> 00:17:05.420 I follow with, well, tell me about the dreams 00:17:05.420 --> 00:17:07.619 you have for your marriage and for your kids 00:17:07.619 --> 00:17:10.140 and for your future. And they do, and I say, 00:17:10.180 --> 00:17:12.339 well, I just want you to know that your current 00:17:12.339 --> 00:17:15.240 behavior has a trajectory that I will guarantee. 00:17:16.309 --> 00:17:19.470 100%, you will not fulfill those dreams. You 00:17:19.470 --> 00:17:21.829 will not. So, I mean, you can keep doing what 00:17:21.829 --> 00:17:24.650 you're doing and you can tell yourself, but that 00:17:24.650 --> 00:17:27.569 behavior, that lifestyle, that lack of connection, 00:17:27.769 --> 00:17:31.190 I can tell you for sure that these things that 00:17:31.190 --> 00:17:33.009 you want and you're dreaming and thinking about 00:17:33.009 --> 00:17:35.670 will never be a reality. And one of the most, 00:17:35.750 --> 00:17:38.849 I would say, encouraging of all the things I 00:17:38.849 --> 00:17:42.349 ever get to do is being a study with those kind 00:17:42.349 --> 00:17:46.200 of guys for six or nine months or a year. and 00:17:46.200 --> 00:17:48.920 watch them make decisions that are so counter 00:17:48.920 --> 00:17:53.480 to the demands of Silicon Valley and to get their 00:17:53.480 --> 00:17:56.200 priorities in a way that, you know, they're tucking 00:17:56.200 --> 00:17:58.619 their kids in bed, they're eating dinner as a 00:17:58.619 --> 00:18:01.200 family, they're doing some things that in the 00:18:01.200 --> 00:18:03.559 long term are way more important than those extra 00:18:03.559 --> 00:18:08.200 hours of work. As we wrap it up, one of kind 00:18:08.200 --> 00:18:10.759 of the guys that influenced me, and I'm not a 00:18:10.759 --> 00:18:12.799 manager, I'm just a reader, but Peter Drucker 00:18:12.799 --> 00:18:16.250 was sort of the... great wisdom of management. 00:18:16.470 --> 00:18:19.369 And he had a few one -liners that have always 00:18:19.369 --> 00:18:21.869 stuck with me. And one of them was, you know, 00:18:21.869 --> 00:18:25.150 build on islands of strength as opposed to trying 00:18:25.150 --> 00:18:27.109 to solve all your weaknesses. And he was speaking 00:18:27.109 --> 00:18:30.069 a lot organizationally. But just as we wrap things 00:18:30.069 --> 00:18:32.029 up, you know, because we've talked about dealing 00:18:32.029 --> 00:18:35.630 with issues and problems and solutions, you've 00:18:35.630 --> 00:18:38.529 got some kids at Biola that you would just say, 00:18:38.650 --> 00:18:41.849 man alive, I hope my 12 -year -old when they're 00:18:41.849 --> 00:18:46.819 19 or 21 is like, Bobby or Mary or, I mean, they're 00:18:46.819 --> 00:18:48.960 walking with God. They have a heart for God. 00:18:49.440 --> 00:18:53.579 What is it about kids that you see are the kind 00:18:53.579 --> 00:18:56.160 of kids who are changing the world and they're 00:18:56.160 --> 00:18:58.779 going to change the world for Christ? What are 00:18:58.779 --> 00:19:01.240 some things they have in common that you would 00:19:01.240 --> 00:19:04.359 say to our audience? Hey, if you want to build 00:19:04.359 --> 00:19:06.920 on islands of strength, if you want to, you know, 00:19:06.920 --> 00:19:09.819 focus on what works instead of always being problem 00:19:09.819 --> 00:19:13.259 -oriented, what would those things be? So I have 00:19:13.259 --> 00:19:16.259 one undergrad class at Biola. It's an upper -level 00:19:16.259 --> 00:19:20.380 kind of apologetics, evangelism, social issues 00:19:20.380 --> 00:19:24.420 class. So I have about 25 students, and I'm consistently 00:19:24.420 --> 00:19:27.700 impressed at the caliber and motivation of our 00:19:27.700 --> 00:19:29.960 students. It blows me away. Like, it's really 00:19:29.960 --> 00:19:32.779 amazing the kind of young people. When people 00:19:32.779 --> 00:19:36.160 dog Gen Z, I think, oh, I got 25 in my class 00:19:36.160 --> 00:19:38.059 every semester, and these students are sharp 00:19:38.059 --> 00:19:40.779 and motivated and they care. Most of my students, 00:19:40.880 --> 00:19:44.779 I teach primarily at a grad program in apologetics 00:19:44.779 --> 00:19:48.359 that's distance -based now. So that's up to people 00:19:48.359 --> 00:19:51.299 who are, you know, 25 to probably 75 years old, 00:19:51.339 --> 00:19:54.359 every profession you can imagine. But probably 00:19:54.359 --> 00:19:56.440 every semester, I have students who come to me, 00:19:56.539 --> 00:19:59.019 some other students at Biola who just know me 00:19:59.019 --> 00:20:01.220 but don't have me in class, want to have office 00:20:01.220 --> 00:20:03.940 hours, and either they have questions and doubts. 00:20:04.569 --> 00:20:07.130 And I listen to them. I ask them questions. I 00:20:07.130 --> 00:20:09.789 try to get to the root of it. I don't freak out. 00:20:09.950 --> 00:20:13.109 I just try to help them think through where they're 00:20:13.109 --> 00:20:14.910 at and why and what it means to connect with 00:20:14.910 --> 00:20:17.410 God. One thing I would say about the impressive 00:20:17.410 --> 00:20:20.230 students is I do have a good number of students, 00:20:20.309 --> 00:20:23.210 Chip, that I'm amazed at who don't come from 00:20:23.210 --> 00:20:25.390 the kind of family backgrounds we've been discussing 00:20:25.390 --> 00:20:28.349 here. I have two in particular, at least, that 00:20:28.349 --> 00:20:30.869 I can think of in a class right now that have 00:20:30.869 --> 00:20:33.470 told me, you know, my parents are not Christians. 00:20:34.140 --> 00:20:36.480 They don't love the Lord. I have a heart and 00:20:36.480 --> 00:20:39.099 I have a burden for them. And it's just kind 00:20:39.099 --> 00:20:41.539 of amazing. Oftentimes they were connected in 00:20:41.539 --> 00:20:44.640 a church. Oftentimes they had a Christian mentor. 00:20:45.200 --> 00:20:47.660 You know, there's someone else in their life 00:20:47.660 --> 00:20:49.779 that came along and just helped and encouraged 00:20:49.779 --> 00:20:51.940 them. I have a number of students with amazing 00:20:51.940 --> 00:20:55.799 faith from broken homes, you know, more than 00:20:55.799 --> 00:20:59.000 you would think today. And a lot of them say, 00:20:59.140 --> 00:21:02.029 you know what? My dad wasn't there. But my mom 00:21:02.029 --> 00:21:05.269 just prayed for me and built relationships with 00:21:05.269 --> 00:21:07.009 me and took me to church, didn't drop me off, 00:21:07.109 --> 00:21:09.670 but she was there with us, went to the sports 00:21:09.670 --> 00:21:12.569 things with us and just sacrificed and prayed 00:21:12.569 --> 00:21:16.950 for us. And so, you know, there's no formula 00:21:16.950 --> 00:21:18.990 I can say. I don't want parents to hear this 00:21:18.990 --> 00:21:20.710 and be discouraged because they don't have the 00:21:20.710 --> 00:21:22.670 kind of family background that we described. 00:21:22.950 --> 00:21:25.730 That is God's design. And that gives students 00:21:25.730 --> 00:21:28.910 the best chance, statistically speaking, of following 00:21:28.910 --> 00:21:31.500 the Lord. But there are plenty of exceptions 00:21:31.500 --> 00:21:34.980 when the Holy Spirit works, when somebody's confronted 00:21:34.980 --> 00:21:37.180 appropriately with the gospel, has a Christian 00:21:37.180 --> 00:21:41.000 mentor in their life. And I see those students 00:21:41.000 --> 00:21:42.900 at Biola, and they're flourishing, and they're 00:21:42.900 --> 00:21:46.220 doing well, and they're world changers too. Well, 00:21:46.240 --> 00:21:48.299 that's a great word of hope. I think you described 00:21:48.299 --> 00:21:51.019 both my wife and me. You know, neither of us 00:21:51.019 --> 00:21:54.920 Christian homes, both alcoholic homes, some real 00:21:54.920 --> 00:22:00.670 tragedy. a mentor in each of our lives. And that's 00:22:00.670 --> 00:22:03.890 hope. When people are open, God's at work. And 00:22:03.890 --> 00:22:06.329 in fact, He's at work even when people aren't 00:22:06.329 --> 00:22:10.809 open. And yeah, so Sean, thank you so very much 00:22:10.809 --> 00:22:13.829 for taking the time and sharing. And I'm glad 00:22:13.829 --> 00:22:16.109 I got to know you personally. And I've got some 00:22:16.109 --> 00:22:21.490 books to buy. And oh, I mean that. I'm a big 00:22:21.490 --> 00:22:24.450 believer and a lifelong learner. And I would 00:22:24.450 --> 00:22:27.250 just end with one thought, because you mentioned 00:22:27.250 --> 00:22:29.470 about three or four or five times just toward 00:22:29.470 --> 00:22:32.950 the very end. And when I think about our kids, 00:22:33.170 --> 00:22:37.829 my wife prays like few people I know. And I'm 00:22:37.829 --> 00:22:39.650 sure there's people who pray longer and deeper. 00:22:39.849 --> 00:22:42.710 I've just never met them. And I've just, I mean, 00:22:42.730 --> 00:22:44.630 there's times where I would go into where she's 00:22:44.630 --> 00:22:47.539 been. You know, the first time it was like I 00:22:47.539 --> 00:22:49.240 thought she had a bad cold or something because 00:22:49.240 --> 00:22:51.599 there was a pile of tissues. And I said, are 00:22:51.599 --> 00:22:55.279 you okay? And she said, of course I'm okay. Why? 00:22:55.819 --> 00:22:58.079 I said, well, you know, there's a pile of tissues. 00:22:58.460 --> 00:23:01.140 And she looked at me like, well, I was praying. 00:23:01.579 --> 00:23:05.160 Wow. And she prays from her heart and she weeps 00:23:05.160 --> 00:23:08.119 before the Lord and intercedes. And I just want 00:23:08.119 --> 00:23:11.259 to make sure people that are listening, when 00:23:11.259 --> 00:23:13.720 I look at my children and when I look at what 00:23:13.720 --> 00:23:16.599 things God has done, Please don't think this 00:23:16.599 --> 00:23:18.619 is an intellectual thing or just a relational 00:23:18.619 --> 00:23:21.559 thing or the right kind of family thing. Call 00:23:21.559 --> 00:23:24.180 to me and I will answer you and I will tell you 00:23:24.180 --> 00:23:27.700 great and mighty things. Jeremiah 33, 3. And 00:23:27.700 --> 00:23:30.579 this morning I was reviewing a verse and it says, 00:23:30.599 --> 00:23:34.140 we have whatever we ask from him. Amen. Because 00:23:34.140 --> 00:23:37.700 we keep his commandments and do the things that 00:23:37.700 --> 00:23:40.440 are pleasing in his sight. And I would just want 00:23:40.440 --> 00:23:43.599 to leave our listeners with. When God finds a 00:23:43.599 --> 00:23:46.839 man or woman, a mom, a dad, a pastor, maybe a 00:23:46.839 --> 00:23:50.400 grandfather or grandmother who comes before God 00:23:50.400 --> 00:23:54.119 and pours out your heart on behalf of those people 00:23:54.119 --> 00:23:58.720 that you love so deeply and you care for, God 00:23:58.720 --> 00:24:04.480 really hears. And he acts in powerful ways. Our 00:24:04.480 --> 00:24:07.359 greatest hope is in what God's about. And we 00:24:07.359 --> 00:24:08.920 always have to remember we have that access. 00:24:09.200 --> 00:24:11.400 So, Sean, what a delight to have you. Thanks 00:24:11.400 --> 00:24:13.730 so much. It's one of my favorite conversations 00:24:13.730 --> 00:24:16.069 in a while, Chip. Thanks for having me on. You 00:24:16.069 --> 00:24:22.329 bet. This is Living on the Edge with Chip Ingram. 00:24:22.410 --> 00:24:24.390 And you've been listening to the enlightening 00:24:24.390 --> 00:24:27.089 conclusion of Chip's conversation with bestselling 00:24:27.089 --> 00:24:30.309 author and apologist Sean McDowell. If you missed 00:24:30.309 --> 00:24:32.369 the first half of their discussion or want to 00:24:32.369 --> 00:24:34.769 go back and revisit any part of our Dealing with 00:24:34.769 --> 00:24:38.849 Doubt series, visit livingontheedge .org or the 00:24:38.849 --> 00:24:41.369 Chip Ingram app. And before we go, throughout 00:24:41.369 --> 00:24:44.369 this series, Chip, John Dickerson, and Sean McDowell 00:24:44.369 --> 00:24:47.049 have referenced many helpful books, podcasts, 00:24:47.529 --> 00:24:50.170 articles, and more for you to check out. So visit 00:24:50.170 --> 00:24:53.750 livingontheedge .org and check out our full resources 00:24:53.750 --> 00:24:56.990 page. We want to point you to relevant, biblically 00:24:56.990 --> 00:24:59.450 grounded tools that will equip you to engage 00:24:59.450 --> 00:25:02.180 the skeptics in your life. or pass on your faith 00:25:02.180 --> 00:25:05.240 to your kids and grandkids. Find that resources 00:25:05.240 --> 00:25:09.799 page at livingontheedge .org or through the Chip 00:25:09.799 --> 00:25:12.460 Ingram app. Well, from all of us here, I'm Dave 00:25:12.460 --> 00:25:14.500 Drewy, thanking you for listening to this edition 00:25:14.500 --> 00:25:17.279 of Living on the Edge, and I hope you'll join 00:25:17.279 --> 00:25:18.240 us again next time.