In any relay race, the speed and conditioning
of the runners are essential, but the handing
off of the baton is everything. Every athlete
pours their heart and soul into their leg of
the race, but the successful transfer of that
baton ultimately determines the results. Coming
up on Living on the Edge, we'll learn how this
principle applies to passing on our faith to
the next generation and how Bible -believing
parents can do it well. I'm Dave Drew, and in
just a minute, we'll finish up our series Dealing
with Doubts by sharing the remainder of Chip's
insightful discussion with author and apologist
Sean McDowell. Today, they'll highlight the steps
and valuable resources Christian moms and dads
can follow to hand that baton of faith off to
their kids and to generations to come. Well,
there's a lot to get to, so here again is Chip.
My background was a lot in psychology, graduate
school and undergraduate, and When you do the
research, part of the completely secular research
about what kind of environments people thrive
in and what helps them, you constantly come back
to what the Scripture teaches about what a man
needs to be and cherishing and caring and protecting
and loving and what a woman needs to be and what
they need to do and the mutual submission to
one another and creating this environment where
kids can flourish and feel loved and valued.
And part of the challenge is there's not a lot
of those kind of models and that family has broken
down in such a way that a lot of people are looking
to social media or the culture to try and figure
out what's up, what's down. What's your counsel
to... That couple who says, we really want to
raise our kids in a way that honors God. We know
they're being bombarded by social media. We don't
want to be too strict because if we say no, no,
no to everything, and on the other hand, there
are real dangers. Sean, you're an apologist.
You're a dad. You work with students. Please
give me some wise counsel about raising my kids
in a way that will help them flourish. Going
back to at least 1972, and this comes from Christian
Smith, a sociologist at Notre Dame, in his book,
Handing Down the Faith. He says the data consistently
shows that parents have the most significant
influence on the faith of their kids. Now, Netflix
and TikTok and the educational system in Hollywood
has an influence, but not the same level of influence
parents can and do have. So what is kind of the
data in scripture show the best chance of passing
on our faith? And by the way, there's no formula
to do this. You can do everything right and kids
have free will. I mean, I was thinking to those
parents earlier when you said you wept about
your son and what he shared with you. One of
the things I tell parents, I say, you know, if
your kids are not following the Lord, remember
God's heart is more broken than your heart or
my heart could ever be. Jesus wept over Jerusalem.
So that's one place to start with. God is pursuing
and seeking them in ways we can't and won't understand
until the story's already done. But step number
one is parents. So how do parents instill that
faith? Well, number one, we have to model a faith
that our kids find attractive. And this is exactly
what your son said to you. It doesn't matter
what we say if we don't really believe it and
live it out. Of course, not perfectly. but the
kind of life that our kids just find attractive.
That's step number one is to model it. Number
two, build relationships with your kids. Intimate,
close relationships. I actually co -wrote a book
with a friend of mine. It was called So the Next
Generation Will Know. And we had one whole chapter
in this. He's a cold case detective, J. Warner
Wallace, former atheist. He actually became a
Christian when he examined the Gospel of Mark
through forensic analysis and was like, this
is reliable testimony. Well, we had a whole chapter
on all the studies we could find on why kids
disengage the faith and tried to bring it all
together. And to me, the most significant study
I'm aware of comes from a sociologist at USC.
He wrote a book about a decade ago called Faith
and Families. And it's published with Oxford
Press. And they studied 3 ,500 people. 35 years,
four generations. And what they said, the most
significant factor in faith transmission is a,
quote, Chip, warm relationship with the father.
Number one. Wow. Now, it doesn't make the mother
unimportant. That's not the point. But sociologically,
a man tends to be more of a wild card. And there
might be something about the father taking the
lead the way God wired us. But nonetheless, number
one, model. Number two. Build intimate, close
relationships with your kids. And by the way,
in that study, they also said that grandparents
are playing an increasingly significant role
in faith transmission of their kids. Third is
have meaningful conversations about faith issues
with your kids. Not lectures, just conversations.
Whether it's like what I'm doing with my son
at breakfast. whether it's over the dinner table.
Some people do formal devotions. I don't really
do formal devotions. Maybe in the morning, my
son and I are doing that kind of thing a little
bit. But just as opportunities arise in the rhythm
of life, having conversations about faith. So
I shared this with Jim Daly. We were interviewing
him on our podcast. I said, Jim, here's what
I think. Number one, model. Number two, build
relationships. Number three, have spiritual conversations.
He goes, I agree. And fourth, if you make mistakes.
Go to your kids and own it and model what it
means to show humility and forgiveness. And I
thought I'm officially going to have to add that
to my list now because Jim said it from Focus
on the Family. So I think that's statistically
speaking and biblically, you find a lot of this
in Deuteronomy 6 .4. That's what I think as a
whole, the research really shows. And of course,
getting your kids into a church. I mean, there's
other things you want to do on top of that, but
that's the bottom line, what I think the data
points to. Well, I've pastored for about 35 or
40 years, and I can tell you that it's true,
anecdotally. I meet so many parents who drop
their kids off at church, who have a faith that
semi -matters, but it's not really attractive.
And the disconnect is, you know, I put them in
a Christian school, I dropped them at the high
school group. I've convinced them even to go
to a Christian college. And they're now, you
know, three years, five years out of college
or in the middle of college. They're living with
their boyfriend or they've come out of this or
come out of that. And they can't make the connection
that behavior always really reveals our genuine
beliefs. So behavior said how we appeared in
front of other people mattered most. Behavior
said work and money and where we lived. And what
we owned mattered most. And you can say whatever
you want. You can go to church. You can send
them to all kinds of schools. But it is those
connections of the heart and where they see you
trusting Christ. And I will say, I think the
one that Jim hit on, and maybe it's because I
didn't grow up as a believer, but when I became
a believer and then I became a dad, and I happened
to have the privilege of adopting my older two
boys. And it's a long story. Many of the Living
on the Edge people know, but my wife came to
Christ after she was abandoned. So when I got
married, I became an instant father. And it was
like, I have no idea. My dad was a good guy,
a World War II vet, Guam, Iwo Jima, purple heart,
deeply damaged, alcoholic. So he tried really
hard, but I didn't learn how to be a dad. And
so it was like starting from scratch. I wrote
my thesis in seminary on the role and responsibility
of the father in transmitting values in the family.
As I wrote that, one of the things I came to
was, when you blow it, own it. If I got a dollar
for every time I had to apologize to my kids
for, oh, I disciplined you and what you did was
really, really wrong, but how I did it and the
tone of my voice and I was angry. When you get
on one knee to a three - or four -year -old and
tell them you're sorry with tears in your eyes
and they sit on your lap and they apologize to
you and you apologize to them and you learn to
talk to Jesus together, that was—we were just
learning as a family. But I think those are the
kind of things that really help kids understand
this is real. This is from the heart. Four things
you shared I think are going to be a great value.
Now, I got to follow up with if someone said,
look, Sean, I'm really committed as a grandparent
or as a pastor. Maybe I've been doing this for
a while. I'm a little out of touch. Would you
walk me through maybe the top four or five books
as you see what's happening in the culture that
would really help parents and grandparents deal
with the issues that they're facing? please at
least include a couple or more of your own. Fair
enough. So when it comes to kids, there's a relational
component and there's an intellectual component.
You know, it says in Thessalonians, Paul says,
we not only gave you the gospel, the content,
but our very own lives relationship. So relationally,
I mean, basically your question, I've been asked
this for almost 20 years plus. Is there any book
for parents, Christian school teachers, grandparents
on how to pass on the faith that's biblically
rooted but practical? So finally, J. Werner Wallace
and I wrote that. It's called So the Next Generation
Will Know. It's a how -to book. It's like practical
steps to take. with this generation. So that's
probably the number one. And I wrote it because
I just couldn't find a book that I felt was out
there. And it was one of the easiest books to
write because it's stuff I think about and I
try to do in my whole life. So that's the relational
side. And gosh, there's some other great books
on building relationships with kids too. But
I, you know, on the truth side, you know, more
than a carpenter, we just updated it together.
My dad's book he wrote in 1977. And worldwide,
it's like 30 million in print, I think 120 languages.
And it's one of the most widely read Christian
books of the past, I guess, 50 years almost.
We just did an update this past fall where it's
better, it's shorter, it's crisper than ever.
And so that's an easy book to read with a young
person, just chapter by chapter, section by section.
And it's framed with my dad's story and journey.
So it's not just a book of facts. I think that's
one reason why it's so interesting. The other
one is there's something called the Apologetic
Study Bible for Students. And I had a chance
to be the general editor on this with a whole
team putting it together. And it's a study Bible.
And it's a great study Bible that has notes at
the bottom. But we have all these features like
little archaeological finds. Sidebars, there's
dozens and dozens of them on like common twisted
scriptures that Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses
or Muslims will do and quick responses to them
kind of put in there. We add stories of key apologists
like C .S. Lewis and my father's story and others
are placed in there because stories are interesting
and encouraging. But the main feature is just
the top 140 questions this generation is asking
about the Bible, about science, about homosexuality
and transgender, about hell, about evil. And
I got this from talking to students. I talked
to youth pastors. I mean, I narrowed down, like,
things like, is it okay to get a tattoo? Like,
students are asking that. What does the Bible
say about that? And we got some of the best apologies
to answer them in just one page. So I've told
a lot of parents, I'm like, what a resource.
Just read this with your kid and say, do you
agree? Do you disagree? What stands out to you?
What's interesting to you? What would you have
added? And you just talk with them one by one.
That's 140 conversations with young people. Wow.
And so that's in part why we did it. But I also
recommend ministries like Stand to Reason by
Greg Kokel. Every parent should be listening
to the Stand to Reason podcast. Now, as far as
talking to kids about sex, My parents wrote a
book. The title is Straight Talk With Your Kids
About Sex. It's the best guide I'm aware of for
parents. Here's how you do this. Here's when
you start. Here's what it looks like. And just
a wonderful practical guide, Straight Talk With
Your Kids About Sex by Josh and Dottie McDowell.
One of my favorite books I wrote is called Chasing
Love. And I wrote it for my own kids. Oh, wow.
Because I couldn't find a book that I thought
was on relationships and dating and sex that
was biblically based and relevant to the pornography
just phenomenon today, to the transgender conversation,
to questions like living together. So that's
a book on relationships. This week I had a parent
say, I'm just reading it chapter by chapter with
my kids. And I was like, amen. Like, I just wish.
More parents would do that. That's how you relationally
pass on the truth. And I think most kids want
to have these kinds of conversations. I really
do. If we listen, we do it respectfully. We don't
force stuff on them. I really think they want
to have these kinds of conversations. Well, I
would really affirm that. And the thing I've
told parents is they're going to have the conversation
and they're going to hear about all of this.
and they're going to hear it from someone other
than you unless you take the initiative. That's
right. And in our day, it probably needs to start
far younger than you think because I read a study
recently where one of the number one issues of
fifth and sixth graders was sex, that pornography
addiction starts as early as 11 years old. Some
of us from our background, you think, how could
that be possible? And yet it's a very different
world now. I think that's right, which is why
one of the things my parents point out in that
book is start the conversation early. Start it
early. In age -appropriate ways, but start it
early. And again, if you're modeling a marriage,
you know one thing my parents would say to me,
Chip? Sometimes when I was younger, when I wanted
to do something I thought was a good idea and
my parents did not. My dad would say, he'd say,
son, do you want the kind of future marriage
and relationship that your mom and I have? Now,
you only ask that question if you know the answer
in advance. Right. And I'd say, yes. He'd say
that if you want that, the decision you're about
to make is going to set you back and make it
more painful and difficult than you know to get
there in life. don't do it, son, because I love
you and I can see how it would affect you. And
I'm not saying I always listen. I still might've
done stupid things, but it's like pointing back
towards your modeling, leaning into the relationship
that you have. And that, you know, that really
worked for me, at least. As I would analyze our
conversation, which, you know, just because of
the way my brain works, I do stuff like that
even when I'm in it. If I was on the outside
of our conversation and, I would think about,
okay, now this was about apologetics. This is
about dealing with doubt. And as I'm listening
to you too, it seems like rather than 75 new
facts and the Bible says this about that, and
here's all the things that you need to fill your
kids' heads with, or here's the seven best arguments
for God in this, you guys spent a lot of time
talking about relationships, connection. authenticity,
having genuine, real answers, being very open,
getting resources, taking time to actually study,
talk, read, have conversations. And it really
begs the question of building a home life and
building a relationship where this matters more
than being in the car four times a week for youth
sports or for work that takes you from Well,
I have to leave the house at 6 a .m. to beat
traffic, and I get home about 8 .30, and a couple
nights a week I get to tuck my kids in. I've
had that conversation with a lot of very committed
Christians, very successful executives, to which
I follow with, well, tell me about the dreams
you have for your marriage and for your kids
and for your future. And they do, and I say,
well, I just want you to know that your current
behavior has a trajectory that I will guarantee.
100%, you will not fulfill those dreams. You
will not. So, I mean, you can keep doing what
you're doing and you can tell yourself, but that
behavior, that lifestyle, that lack of connection,
I can tell you for sure that these things that
you want and you're dreaming and thinking about
will never be a reality. And one of the most,
I would say, encouraging of all the things I
ever get to do is being a study with those kind
of guys for six or nine months or a year. and
watch them make decisions that are so counter
to the demands of Silicon Valley and to get their
priorities in a way that, you know, they're tucking
their kids in bed, they're eating dinner as a
family, they're doing some things that in the
long term are way more important than those extra
hours of work. As we wrap it up, one of kind
of the guys that influenced me, and I'm not a
manager, I'm just a reader, but Peter Drucker
was sort of the... great wisdom of management.
And he had a few one -liners that have always
stuck with me. And one of them was, you know,
build on islands of strength as opposed to trying
to solve all your weaknesses. And he was speaking
a lot organizationally. But just as we wrap things
up, you know, because we've talked about dealing
with issues and problems and solutions, you've
got some kids at Biola that you would just say,
man alive, I hope my 12 -year -old when they're
19 or 21 is like, Bobby or Mary or, I mean, they're
walking with God. They have a heart for God.
What is it about kids that you see are the kind
of kids who are changing the world and they're
going to change the world for Christ? What are
some things they have in common that you would
say to our audience? Hey, if you want to build
on islands of strength, if you want to, you know,
focus on what works instead of always being problem
-oriented, what would those things be? So I have
one undergrad class at Biola. It's an upper -level
kind of apologetics, evangelism, social issues
class. So I have about 25 students, and I'm consistently
impressed at the caliber and motivation of our
students. It blows me away. Like, it's really
amazing the kind of young people. When people
dog Gen Z, I think, oh, I got 25 in my class
every semester, and these students are sharp
and motivated and they care. Most of my students,
I teach primarily at a grad program in apologetics
that's distance -based now. So that's up to people
who are, you know, 25 to probably 75 years old,
every profession you can imagine. But probably
every semester, I have students who come to me,
some other students at Biola who just know me
but don't have me in class, want to have office
hours, and either they have questions and doubts.
And I listen to them. I ask them questions. I
try to get to the root of it. I don't freak out.
I just try to help them think through where they're
at and why and what it means to connect with
God. One thing I would say about the impressive
students is I do have a good number of students,
Chip, that I'm amazed at who don't come from
the kind of family backgrounds we've been discussing
here. I have two in particular, at least, that
I can think of in a class right now that have
told me, you know, my parents are not Christians.
They don't love the Lord. I have a heart and
I have a burden for them. And it's just kind
of amazing. Oftentimes they were connected in
a church. Oftentimes they had a Christian mentor.
You know, there's someone else in their life
that came along and just helped and encouraged
them. I have a number of students with amazing
faith from broken homes, you know, more than
you would think today. And a lot of them say,
you know what? My dad wasn't there. But my mom
just prayed for me and built relationships with
me and took me to church, didn't drop me off,
but she was there with us, went to the sports
things with us and just sacrificed and prayed
for us. And so, you know, there's no formula
I can say. I don't want parents to hear this
and be discouraged because they don't have the
kind of family background that we described.
That is God's design. And that gives students
the best chance, statistically speaking, of following
the Lord. But there are plenty of exceptions
when the Holy Spirit works, when somebody's confronted
appropriately with the gospel, has a Christian
mentor in their life. And I see those students
at Biola, and they're flourishing, and they're
doing well, and they're world changers too. Well,
that's a great word of hope. I think you described
both my wife and me. You know, neither of us
Christian homes, both alcoholic homes, some real
tragedy. a mentor in each of our lives. And that's
hope. When people are open, God's at work. And
in fact, He's at work even when people aren't
open. And yeah, so Sean, thank you so very much
for taking the time and sharing. And I'm glad
I got to know you personally. And I've got some
books to buy. And oh, I mean that. I'm a big
believer and a lifelong learner. And I would
just end with one thought, because you mentioned
about three or four or five times just toward
the very end. And when I think about our kids,
my wife prays like few people I know. And I'm
sure there's people who pray longer and deeper.
I've just never met them. And I've just, I mean,
there's times where I would go into where she's
been. You know, the first time it was like I
thought she had a bad cold or something because
there was a pile of tissues. And I said, are
you okay? And she said, of course I'm okay. Why?
I said, well, you know, there's a pile of tissues.
And she looked at me like, well, I was praying.
Wow. And she prays from her heart and she weeps
before the Lord and intercedes. And I just want
to make sure people that are listening, when
I look at my children and when I look at what
things God has done, Please don't think this
is an intellectual thing or just a relational
thing or the right kind of family thing. Call
to me and I will answer you and I will tell you
great and mighty things. Jeremiah 33, 3. And
this morning I was reviewing a verse and it says,
we have whatever we ask from him. Amen. Because
we keep his commandments and do the things that
are pleasing in his sight. And I would just want
to leave our listeners with. When God finds a
man or woman, a mom, a dad, a pastor, maybe a
grandfather or grandmother who comes before God
and pours out your heart on behalf of those people
that you love so deeply and you care for, God
really hears. And he acts in powerful ways. Our
greatest hope is in what God's about. And we
always have to remember we have that access.
So, Sean, what a delight to have you. Thanks
so much. It's one of my favorite conversations
in a while, Chip. Thanks for having me on. You
bet. This is Living on the Edge with Chip Ingram.
And you've been listening to the enlightening
conclusion of Chip's conversation with bestselling
author and apologist Sean McDowell. If you missed
the first half of their discussion or want to
go back and revisit any part of our Dealing with
Doubt series, visit livingontheedge .org or the
Chip Ingram app. And before we go, throughout
this series, Chip, John Dickerson, and Sean McDowell
have referenced many helpful books, podcasts,
articles, and more for you to check out. So visit
livingontheedge .org and check out our full resources
page. We want to point you to relevant, biblically
grounded tools that will equip you to engage
the skeptics in your life. or pass on your faith
to your kids and grandkids. Find that resources
page at livingontheedge .org or through the Chip
Ingram app. Well, from all of us here, I'm Dave
Drewy, thanking you for listening to this edition
of Living on the Edge, and I hope you'll join
us again next time.