WEBVTT 00:00:01.320 --> 00:00:03.960 Picture this. A close friend asks you to meet 00:00:03.960 --> 00:00:06.320 them for coffee, and after catching up for a 00:00:06.320 --> 00:00:08.519 little while, they lean in and quietly admit, 00:00:08.720 --> 00:00:10.960 You know, I've been wanting to talk to you because 00:00:10.960 --> 00:00:13.679 I'm having a lot of doubts about whether Christianity 00:00:13.679 --> 00:00:16.699 is the way for me. I mean, how can I know the 00:00:16.699 --> 00:00:19.140 Bible is true and that Jesus really loves me? 00:00:19.320 --> 00:00:22.679 Will you help me? I'm not sure what to do. Well, 00:00:22.699 --> 00:00:25.199 let me tell you, that scenario is all too real 00:00:25.199 --> 00:00:27.679 for many believers who've had that close friend 00:00:27.679 --> 00:00:30.780 or maybe even a child share those honest feelings 00:00:30.780 --> 00:00:33.159 from their heart. And when those moments come 00:00:33.159 --> 00:00:35.799 up, that's a perfect opportunity for you to step 00:00:35.799 --> 00:00:38.600 up and support them. So coming up on Living on 00:00:38.600 --> 00:00:41.439 the Edge, we'll help you talk to and care for 00:00:41.439 --> 00:00:43.619 those wrestling with their faith as we begin 00:00:43.619 --> 00:00:46.420 winding down our insightful series, Dealing with 00:00:46.420 --> 00:00:49.549 Doubts. I'm Dave Drewy. We have a very special 00:00:49.549 --> 00:00:52.450 program for you today. A few weeks ago, Chip 00:00:52.450 --> 00:00:54.909 sat down with best -selling author and prominent 00:00:54.909 --> 00:00:58.270 Christian apologist, Sean McDowell. The two discussed 00:00:58.270 --> 00:01:00.909 the subject of doubt as Chip opened up about 00:01:00.909 --> 00:01:03.170 a heartbreaking conversation he once had with 00:01:03.170 --> 00:01:05.450 his son, who was in the middle of a faith crisis. 00:01:06.090 --> 00:01:08.230 Well, there's so much to get to, so here's Chip 00:01:08.230 --> 00:01:12.629 to dive right in. We spent the last month talking 00:01:12.629 --> 00:01:15.510 about, we all have doubts, we all have struggles, 00:01:15.549 --> 00:01:18.340 and Of course, those that are parents and grandparents, 00:01:18.640 --> 00:01:21.500 pastors, the next generation is certainly near 00:01:21.500 --> 00:01:24.099 and dear to our heart. And so as I was praying 00:01:24.099 --> 00:01:27.200 this through, I thought, who could I invite that 00:01:27.200 --> 00:01:29.799 works with young people that really is connected 00:01:29.799 --> 00:01:32.780 to what's really going on to say, hey, could 00:01:32.780 --> 00:01:36.540 you help us really understand what's going on 00:01:36.540 --> 00:01:39.159 in the lives, especially of younger people, and 00:01:39.159 --> 00:01:41.200 where their struggles are, where their doubts. 00:01:41.420 --> 00:01:43.900 And so I want to welcome Sean McDowell. Great 00:01:43.900 --> 00:01:46.219 to have you with us. Chip, this is such a treat. 00:01:46.280 --> 00:01:48.299 I've been looking forward to this. Well, thanks 00:01:48.299 --> 00:01:51.480 for being with us. I did not grow up as a follower 00:01:51.480 --> 00:01:55.319 of Christ, and I was a skeptic. And your dad's 00:01:55.319 --> 00:01:57.519 book, More Than a Carpenter, and then Evidence 00:01:57.519 --> 00:02:00.680 That Demands a Verdict, were ones that I poured 00:02:00.680 --> 00:02:03.400 over. And like, could this really be true in 00:02:03.400 --> 00:02:06.799 my kind of young struggle? So it's great to have 00:02:06.799 --> 00:02:08.900 you with us. And maybe tell us, I know you're 00:02:08.900 --> 00:02:11.580 a professor at Biola. I have watched your podcast. 00:02:12.469 --> 00:02:14.189 Give me just a little bit of your background 00:02:14.189 --> 00:02:16.990 and your heart and why you do what you do. Yeah, 00:02:17.050 --> 00:02:19.770 I grew up in a small town in San Diego, even 00:02:19.770 --> 00:02:22.310 though my parents were missionaries and still 00:02:22.310 --> 00:02:25.629 are with crew. I had no intention of becoming 00:02:25.629 --> 00:02:27.830 an apologist, being a professor, or following 00:02:27.830 --> 00:02:30.469 in my dad's footsteps. At one point, I thought 00:02:30.469 --> 00:02:32.729 I was going into politics. Another time, a lawyer. 00:02:33.050 --> 00:02:35.430 I thought I was going to play in the NBA, probably 00:02:35.430 --> 00:02:37.909 in junior high. Like, I just had no intention 00:02:37.909 --> 00:02:41.090 of going into this for a lot of reasons. really 00:02:41.090 --> 00:02:43.169 one thing that shifted, there's a few pieces 00:02:43.169 --> 00:02:46.330 of this story, but my senior year at Biola, I 00:02:46.330 --> 00:02:48.810 had a class with JP Moreland, who's still to 00:02:48.810 --> 00:02:51.270 this day, one of the leading philosophers, not 00:02:51.270 --> 00:02:53.330 just Christian philosophers in the world on the 00:02:53.330 --> 00:02:56.169 philosophy of mind. And it was on apologetics. 00:02:56.330 --> 00:02:57.870 And I thought, well, this will be easy. I grew 00:02:57.870 --> 00:03:00.949 up in apologetics family. I had no idea when 00:03:00.949 --> 00:03:03.150 I was stepping into chip because my dad, like 00:03:03.150 --> 00:03:05.490 you mentioned the two books, more than a carpenter 00:03:05.490 --> 00:03:07.550 evidence demands verdict. Those are historical 00:03:07.550 --> 00:03:11.939 apologetics. JP does philosophical apologetics, 00:03:12.000 --> 00:03:14.879 the argument from consciousness, intelligent 00:03:14.879 --> 00:03:18.419 design. I heard this stuff and was like, whoa, 00:03:18.620 --> 00:03:21.979 this is so interesting. And so ended up wanting 00:03:21.979 --> 00:03:23.479 to become, I wanted to work with students. I 00:03:23.479 --> 00:03:26.400 got that love from my parents. And I thought, 00:03:26.460 --> 00:03:28.500 you know, I could teach in a youth ministry program, 00:03:28.659 --> 00:03:30.719 but you only get students an hour or two a week. 00:03:30.900 --> 00:03:32.379 I'm going to teach at a Christian school, have 00:03:32.379 --> 00:03:34.240 students three hours a week, get weekends and 00:03:34.240 --> 00:03:37.460 summers off to speak and write. And for 21 years, 00:03:37.560 --> 00:03:40.000 full -time and part -time, I've been teaching 00:03:40.000 --> 00:03:42.259 Bible. And this is the first year I'm actually 00:03:42.259 --> 00:03:45.280 not doing it part -time. I'm a full -time apologetics 00:03:45.280 --> 00:03:48.340 professor. So I guess to sum it up, I'm a communicator. 00:03:48.400 --> 00:03:50.919 I have a YouTube channel. I'm on Instagram. I 00:03:50.919 --> 00:03:54.939 write books. I speak and teach. And my heart 00:03:54.939 --> 00:03:57.719 is— evangelism apologetics equipping and reaching 00:03:57.719 --> 00:04:00.259 the next generation. I'm going to just jump right 00:04:00.259 --> 00:04:03.039 in because we've covered some of the intellectual 00:04:03.039 --> 00:04:06.860 issues, emotional issues, everything from does 00:04:06.860 --> 00:04:09.860 Christianity work? Is it believable? But one 00:04:09.860 --> 00:04:12.080 of the things we wanted to frame everything around 00:04:12.080 --> 00:04:15.520 was this whole idea of doubt. And some people 00:04:15.520 --> 00:04:17.800 think that any doubt you might have about God 00:04:17.800 --> 00:04:21.300 or his word is negative. But from your perspective, 00:04:21.500 --> 00:04:24.139 what's the role of doubt? How does that play 00:04:24.139 --> 00:04:27.740 out in the development of our faith? I'm a natural 00:04:27.740 --> 00:04:30.180 doubter, Chip. I doubt everything. If I buy a 00:04:30.180 --> 00:04:31.699 car, I'm like, well, maybe I should have bought 00:04:31.699 --> 00:04:33.319 in this car. If I go on a vacation, I'm like, 00:04:33.339 --> 00:04:34.959 well, maybe I could have got a better deal. I 00:04:34.959 --> 00:04:38.019 just doubt everything. I think I'm wired that 00:04:38.019 --> 00:04:41.279 way. And I have a pastor friend years ago who 00:04:41.279 --> 00:04:44.240 I think has the gift of faith. And at this point, 00:04:44.259 --> 00:04:46.180 he lost his job, was looking for another one. 00:04:46.879 --> 00:04:48.300 And I'm like, hey, what are you going to do? 00:04:48.379 --> 00:04:49.639 And he's like, you know what? God is going to 00:04:49.639 --> 00:04:51.720 provide. And I'm like, how do you know? Maybe 00:04:51.720 --> 00:04:53.360 God wants you to suffer. And he just looks at 00:04:53.360 --> 00:04:55.240 me. He's like, Sean, God's going to provide. 00:04:55.399 --> 00:04:58.220 Don't worry. And I remember like looking at that 00:04:58.220 --> 00:05:01.500 going, man, why don't I have that faith? And 00:05:01.500 --> 00:05:03.579 it hit me sometime later. I thought, you know 00:05:03.579 --> 00:05:07.060 what? If I had that kind of gift of faith as 00:05:07.060 --> 00:05:11.680 he did, I wouldn't write 700 page books defending 00:05:11.680 --> 00:05:14.899 the truth of Christianity. I wouldn't do a PhD 00:05:14.899 --> 00:05:18.069 dissertation. tracing down the stories of whether 00:05:18.069 --> 00:05:20.589 or not the apostles died as martyrs to see if 00:05:20.589 --> 00:05:23.449 we could trust their testimony. It's doubts that 00:05:23.449 --> 00:05:25.990 drive me to ask questions, drive me to go in. 00:05:26.170 --> 00:05:28.829 So my friend needs me to do this and I need his 00:05:28.829 --> 00:05:31.610 strength of faith. So people are going to have 00:05:31.610 --> 00:05:34.069 different kinds and levels of doubt. Now in our 00:05:34.069 --> 00:05:37.139 age of social media, I really don't know how 00:05:37.139 --> 00:05:40.279 anybody doesn't at least have some doubt. I don't 00:05:40.279 --> 00:05:43.199 know how it's possible with so many smart people 00:05:43.199 --> 00:05:46.319 who have, for lack of a better term, ministries 00:05:46.319 --> 00:05:49.660 all over TikTok, all over YouTube, all over trying 00:05:49.660 --> 00:05:53.819 to evangelize and disciple people out of their 00:05:53.819 --> 00:05:56.139 faith. I don't know how everybody doesn't at 00:05:56.139 --> 00:05:58.759 least have some doubt. But one key point I would 00:05:58.759 --> 00:06:01.620 make that's really important, doubt is not the 00:06:01.620 --> 00:06:06.339 opposite of faith. Unbelief is. You can believe 00:06:06.339 --> 00:06:10.480 something and have doubts. In a sense, to have 00:06:10.480 --> 00:06:13.879 doubt is just to not be 100 % certain that something 00:06:13.879 --> 00:06:16.720 is true. Right. But it's important we don't assume 00:06:16.720 --> 00:06:19.779 doubt is unbelief, which is why I think Jude 00:06:19.779 --> 00:06:24.160 22 says, have mercy on those who doubt. It can 00:06:24.160 --> 00:06:27.220 be painful. It can be difficult. It can be an 00:06:27.220 --> 00:06:30.500 existential crisis, which I, in part, went through. 00:06:31.100 --> 00:06:32.959 So last thing I'll say in this is when my students 00:06:32.959 --> 00:06:34.519 often say to me, you know, I'm having doubts 00:06:34.519 --> 00:06:37.120 or questions, I'll respond by saying, good for 00:06:37.120 --> 00:06:39.620 you. I just want to let them know, okay, you 00:06:39.620 --> 00:06:41.819 realize this matters. And you use your mind, 00:06:41.860 --> 00:06:44.620 you're asking questions. Let's dig in and see 00:06:44.620 --> 00:06:47.120 if we can figure this out. That is so helpful. 00:06:47.879 --> 00:06:51.459 Doubt is not the opposite of faith. Unbelief 00:06:51.459 --> 00:06:54.120 is. I don't think most people think of it like 00:06:54.120 --> 00:06:57.240 that. I remember I didn't grow up as a follower 00:06:57.240 --> 00:07:00.240 of Christ right after high school. trusted Christ, 00:07:00.540 --> 00:07:03.439 got involved in a discipleship ministry. And 00:07:03.439 --> 00:07:06.519 then I really had a hunger for God. And then 00:07:06.519 --> 00:07:09.480 I decided one summer, mostly so I could play 00:07:09.480 --> 00:07:11.459 in a summer basketball league and be ready for 00:07:11.459 --> 00:07:13.680 the next year of college basketball. It really 00:07:13.680 --> 00:07:16.220 wasn't about school, but I stayed on campus. 00:07:16.500 --> 00:07:19.480 And I remember something happened. It was just 00:07:19.480 --> 00:07:23.879 a flash of, what if this isn't true? What if 00:07:23.879 --> 00:07:27.439 this is just some... college emotional experience. 00:07:27.560 --> 00:07:30.540 God really changed my life, my relationships. 00:07:30.899 --> 00:07:35.160 And so I had this experiential reality. And then 00:07:35.160 --> 00:07:39.000 I had, looking back, probably extreme spiritual 00:07:39.000 --> 00:07:42.800 warfare. But it was like darts of, you're deluded. 00:07:42.939 --> 00:07:47.680 You're crazy. None of this is true. And I went 00:07:47.680 --> 00:07:50.560 through a summer without emotional connection 00:07:50.560 --> 00:07:53.500 to God, if you know what I mean. Wow. And choosing 00:07:53.500 --> 00:07:57.379 to say, What's it look like to trust God when 00:07:57.379 --> 00:08:00.660 all these thoughts are going into my mind and 00:08:00.660 --> 00:08:03.800 I don't know what to do with them? Anyway, any 00:08:03.800 --> 00:08:08.019 insight on that person who is saying, I don't 00:08:08.019 --> 00:08:10.579 know if this is true? Well, one point I want 00:08:10.579 --> 00:08:12.600 to make is I want to compare and contrast your 00:08:12.600 --> 00:08:15.540 story with the person in the Bible who we associate 00:08:15.540 --> 00:08:19.220 with doubt, namely Thomas. Thomas didn't say, 00:08:19.300 --> 00:08:21.399 gosh, I have questions. I'm not sure. I'm wrestling 00:08:21.399 --> 00:08:24.209 with this. I don't know. Thomas said, I will 00:08:24.209 --> 00:08:27.889 not believe unless I see and touch the nail marks 00:08:27.889 --> 00:08:31.230 in his hand and in his side. We equate doubt 00:08:31.230 --> 00:08:35.450 with total rejection of the faith. That's what 00:08:35.450 --> 00:08:38.090 we have to reframe. You had an experience of 00:08:38.090 --> 00:08:41.389 doubt. Not I reject this. I will not believe, 00:08:41.490 --> 00:08:43.830 period, unless you prove it to me empirically. 00:08:44.519 --> 00:08:46.360 So some of the way we approach this, I think, 00:08:46.379 --> 00:08:48.919 needs to be reshifted. I had a similar experience 00:08:48.919 --> 00:08:50.779 as you, Chip. And for me, interestingly enough, 00:08:50.799 --> 00:08:52.779 I was also playing college basketball. I didn't 00:08:52.779 --> 00:08:54.259 know you were a college basketball player. We 00:08:54.259 --> 00:08:57.259 have to have that conversation sometime. And 00:08:57.259 --> 00:09:00.500 I was at Biola, of all places, mid -90s. And 00:09:00.500 --> 00:09:02.740 I got online and started fishing around trying 00:09:02.740 --> 00:09:04.620 to figure out what this internet thing was and 00:09:04.620 --> 00:09:07.899 came across these atheist sites that basically... 00:09:08.539 --> 00:09:11.179 Started some of the atheist web responding to 00:09:11.179 --> 00:09:13.639 my dad's content and evidence that demands a 00:09:13.639 --> 00:09:16.720 verdict. Wow. Chapter by chapter, doctors, lawyers, 00:09:17.100 --> 00:09:20.059 historians, philosophers. And that's the first 00:09:20.059 --> 00:09:21.960 time the weight hit me like you and I thought, 00:09:22.100 --> 00:09:24.519 oh my goodness, what if I'm wrong about this? 00:09:24.759 --> 00:09:28.600 Yeah. It wasn't just intellectual. It was emotional. 00:09:28.740 --> 00:09:32.379 I felt it. Like it was heavy because I realized 00:09:32.379 --> 00:09:35.659 what's at stake. I figured I had to tell. my 00:09:35.659 --> 00:09:38.720 dad, this great apologist, and you know, in case 00:09:38.720 --> 00:09:40.259 some people don't know him, just so people have 00:09:40.259 --> 00:09:43.679 context, he's spoken to 1200 universities, written 00:09:43.679 --> 00:09:46.879 160 books, hands down, one of the most influential 00:09:46.879 --> 00:09:49.120 evangelicals in the past half century. And he's 00:09:49.120 --> 00:09:51.279 an apologist. And this is my dad. And I'm about 00:09:51.279 --> 00:09:53.120 to tell him that I'm not sure I think this stuff 00:09:53.120 --> 00:09:55.299 is true. So just setting the table for people. 00:09:56.179 --> 00:09:59.519 And we're in Breckenridge, Colorado. And I just 00:09:59.519 --> 00:10:01.620 said, hey, can we go to coffee or tea or something 00:10:01.620 --> 00:10:04.159 like that? And we sat down, as best as I could 00:10:04.159 --> 00:10:05.980 remember, Chip, I wish I had a video of it. I 00:10:05.980 --> 00:10:08.279 said something to the effect of, Dad, you know, 00:10:08.299 --> 00:10:10.879 I'm not really sure I'm convinced Christianity 00:10:10.879 --> 00:10:14.299 is true. He didn't freak out. He looked at me 00:10:14.299 --> 00:10:17.340 and goes, son, I think that's great. And I remember 00:10:17.340 --> 00:10:19.960 thinking, did you even hear what I just said? 00:10:21.019 --> 00:10:24.220 And what he communicated to me was, you know, 00:10:24.240 --> 00:10:25.940 you can't believe this just because I believe 00:10:25.940 --> 00:10:28.500 it. You've got to decide and follow what you 00:10:28.500 --> 00:10:31.480 think is true. He said, don't reject Christianity. 00:10:32.340 --> 00:10:35.139 Unless you're really convinced that it's false. 00:10:35.779 --> 00:10:38.059 And you know your mom and I will love you no 00:10:38.059 --> 00:10:41.720 matter what. Wow. And I really don't want to 00:10:41.720 --> 00:10:44.379 over -dramatize that, but it was a significant 00:10:44.379 --> 00:10:48.100 moment for me. And that's what I encourage parents 00:10:48.100 --> 00:10:51.419 to do. Don't freak out. Don't get defensive. 00:10:51.679 --> 00:10:54.360 It probably has nothing to do with your parenting 00:10:54.360 --> 00:10:58.289 or lack thereof. And one of the most interesting 00:10:58.289 --> 00:10:59.970 studies, Chip, this was done on millennials, 00:11:00.289 --> 00:11:03.490 Sticky Faith by Kara Powell out of Fuller Theological 00:11:03.490 --> 00:11:07.370 Seminary. They said people don't leave the faith 00:11:07.370 --> 00:11:11.250 because of doubts. They do because of unexpressed 00:11:11.250 --> 00:11:14.610 doubts. People don't leave primarily because 00:11:14.610 --> 00:11:18.190 of questions, but because of unexpressed questions 00:11:18.190 --> 00:11:22.789 that foster like a cancer. So in many ways, she's 00:11:22.789 --> 00:11:25.490 been able to get off my chest and have my dad 00:11:25.490 --> 00:11:27.889 not freak out. It's like, I think about like 00:11:27.889 --> 00:11:29.809 when I'm on the airline and I look at the steward, 00:11:29.870 --> 00:11:31.509 you know, when we're shaking a little bit, I've 00:11:31.509 --> 00:11:33.090 traveled my whole life and I still get a little 00:11:33.090 --> 00:11:34.970 antsy. If I look at the steward and they're like 00:11:34.970 --> 00:11:36.809 freaking out, like I'm going, oh boy, we're going 00:11:36.809 --> 00:11:40.149 down. But they've been trained to look calm and 00:11:40.149 --> 00:11:43.950 collected and put you at ease. That's the response 00:11:43.950 --> 00:11:45.970 when kids doubt. My dad is like, you're going 00:11:45.970 --> 00:11:48.970 to be fine. If you seek after truth, you're going 00:11:48.970 --> 00:11:52.620 to end up following Jesus, I think. And I love 00:11:52.620 --> 00:11:55.259 you no matter what. So he gave me space, reassured 00:11:55.259 --> 00:11:58.500 me of my love, didn't freak out. He offered to 00:11:58.500 --> 00:12:00.820 help me make sense of these. But honestly, I 00:12:00.820 --> 00:12:03.539 needed somebody else outside of my dad. Like 00:12:03.539 --> 00:12:05.360 in movies, sometimes you just need a mentor. 00:12:05.500 --> 00:12:07.759 So people like William Lane Craig and J .P. Moreland 00:12:07.759 --> 00:12:10.399 to answer some of those philosophical questions. 00:12:11.220 --> 00:12:14.720 And ultimately, I obviously came back or stayed 00:12:14.720 --> 00:12:17.139 within the faith, I guess you could say. You 00:12:17.139 --> 00:12:19.860 know, I've come from most of this from a pastoral 00:12:19.860 --> 00:12:23.320 perspective. talking with those parents that 00:12:23.320 --> 00:12:27.159 literally are, what did I do wrong? And the world 00:12:27.159 --> 00:12:30.580 is falling apart. And their fear often drives 00:12:30.580 --> 00:12:34.980 them to start shoving information in front of 00:12:34.980 --> 00:12:38.620 their student or young adult, which actually 00:12:38.620 --> 00:12:43.019 produces exactly the opposite response of what 00:12:43.019 --> 00:12:45.279 they're really hoping for. And it's the opposite 00:12:45.279 --> 00:12:48.639 of what you described. And I say that to those 00:12:48.639 --> 00:12:51.840 listening. If you could lighten up and trust 00:12:51.840 --> 00:12:56.200 God in the midst of this and give God some room 00:12:56.200 --> 00:12:59.720 to work in your, whether it's a teenager or young 00:12:59.720 --> 00:13:03.379 adult or college student. One of my four kids 00:13:03.379 --> 00:13:06.379 went through a real challenging time. He's really, 00:13:06.460 --> 00:13:09.940 really smart. One of those kids that didn't have 00:13:09.940 --> 00:13:12.740 to study and did great on the test, which made 00:13:12.740 --> 00:13:15.950 his. fraternal twin brother, absolutely sick. 00:13:16.210 --> 00:13:18.809 You know, he would bust it and work and work 00:13:18.809 --> 00:13:21.509 and work, and they'd both do well. But it was 00:13:21.509 --> 00:13:24.889 like one would just show up and not study and 00:13:24.889 --> 00:13:27.169 get, you know, two points higher than his brother. 00:13:27.669 --> 00:13:30.429 And he went through a time where he just, he 00:13:30.429 --> 00:13:32.970 looked at me and said, Dad, I actually really 00:13:32.970 --> 00:13:35.429 like you as a dad. I just wish you weren't a 00:13:35.429 --> 00:13:38.529 Christian dad. Oh, my goodness. And it wasn't 00:13:38.529 --> 00:13:40.950 like, oh, two weeks later, everything was fine. 00:13:41.600 --> 00:13:45.019 He went on a journey of questions and doubts 00:13:45.019 --> 00:13:48.240 that just led to some really challenging times. 00:13:48.840 --> 00:13:51.080 Fast forward, it was three, four years later. 00:13:51.240 --> 00:13:55.700 It was not an easy or short -term time. And it 00:13:55.700 --> 00:13:57.519 kind of came to a crisis, and we had to figure 00:13:57.519 --> 00:13:58.899 out, you know, where are we going to go with 00:13:58.899 --> 00:14:03.059 this? And he spent a couple days, as I remember 00:14:03.059 --> 00:14:04.639 it, he might remember it a little bit differently. 00:14:04.820 --> 00:14:08.460 I'm learning the older I get. We both have the 00:14:08.460 --> 00:14:11.480 same experience, but it is recorded very differently 00:14:11.480 --> 00:14:14.940 or can be very different. So I just want to honor 00:14:14.940 --> 00:14:16.700 him in that. But I remember him coming out of 00:14:16.700 --> 00:14:18.500 his bedroom, at least it seemed to me, after 00:14:18.500 --> 00:14:22.620 about two days. I could see this change. At some 00:14:22.620 --> 00:14:24.659 point later, when you could just really tell 00:14:24.659 --> 00:14:27.419 that he'd reestablished his faith, I kind of 00:14:27.419 --> 00:14:30.399 asked him, what happened? And it was really interesting 00:14:30.399 --> 00:14:32.659 because, you know, when you're a pastor, he's 00:14:32.659 --> 00:14:34.960 heard hundreds of my sermons. That's right. Perhaps 00:14:34.960 --> 00:14:37.179 thousands, right? You know, I bet there was one 00:14:37.179 --> 00:14:40.139 that was really, and of course, none of that 00:14:40.139 --> 00:14:44.080 was the reason. And he said, well, Dad, to be 00:14:44.080 --> 00:14:48.379 very honest, I really struggled, and I wrestled. 00:14:49.039 --> 00:14:52.320 But he said, you know, I just have watched you 00:14:52.320 --> 00:14:59.120 and Mom, and Jesus is so real to you too. You 00:14:59.120 --> 00:15:01.720 and mom, you're first -generation Christians, 00:15:01.759 --> 00:15:05.120 and you're just the same at home as you are at 00:15:05.120 --> 00:15:09.340 church. I ask Jesus to be as real to me as he 00:15:09.340 --> 00:15:12.399 obviously is to you. And I just want to kind 00:15:12.399 --> 00:15:15.120 of say maybe to some of those parents, grandparents, 00:15:15.340 --> 00:15:18.539 or even some pastors that there's few things 00:15:18.539 --> 00:15:21.059 that we'll do to help our kids walk with God 00:15:21.059 --> 00:15:24.519 more than just with all of our imperfections. 00:15:24.580 --> 00:15:27.769 Just live it out. You know, they actually do 00:15:27.769 --> 00:15:30.029 observe us. And just because they go through 00:15:30.029 --> 00:15:33.289 some seasons where they doubt or struggle, one 00:15:33.289 --> 00:15:36.710 of the greatest apologetics is the love of God 00:15:36.710 --> 00:15:38.809 and the light of God being lived out in very 00:15:38.809 --> 00:15:41.710 imperfect people like a mom and dad. And that 00:15:41.710 --> 00:15:44.129 has been a great hope and encouragement for me 00:15:44.129 --> 00:15:46.350 that I've shared with a lot of parents going 00:15:46.350 --> 00:15:49.289 through rough times. That's an amazing story. 00:15:49.490 --> 00:15:51.269 Thanks for sharing that. That line just jumped 00:15:51.269 --> 00:15:53.830 out to me. I wish you weren't a Christian dad. 00:15:55.370 --> 00:15:58.789 Every bone or nerve inside of me would want to 00:15:58.789 --> 00:16:03.169 get defensive and get angry and react and feel 00:16:03.169 --> 00:16:06.049 offended. Like that's just a natural human response. 00:16:06.830 --> 00:16:10.909 But if we ask ourself, what's best for our kid 00:16:10.909 --> 00:16:15.649 in this situation? It's just to listen and say, 00:16:15.710 --> 00:16:17.809 tell me about that. What do you wish that I was? 00:16:18.149 --> 00:16:21.029 Why do you wish I wasn't a Christian? What do 00:16:21.029 --> 00:16:24.019 you understand that Christianity is? When did 00:16:24.019 --> 00:16:25.960 you first have this thought that you wished it 00:16:25.960 --> 00:16:29.480 were different? I mean, just be curious and lean 00:16:29.480 --> 00:16:32.860 in. And it sounds like that's what you did. So 00:16:32.860 --> 00:16:34.779 I mean, when I, especially when I go travel and 00:16:34.779 --> 00:16:37.059 online, I get emails. I was at this event recently 00:16:37.059 --> 00:16:39.539 and this dad brought his daughter over who was 00:16:39.539 --> 00:16:41.659 questioning her faith. And he goes, tell her 00:16:41.659 --> 00:16:44.059 that the Bible is true. Explain it to her. Give 00:16:44.059 --> 00:16:46.620 her the evidence. And I'm in this awkward situation 00:16:46.620 --> 00:16:49.440 where I just didn't want to make the dad look 00:16:49.440 --> 00:16:51.860 stupid in front of his daughter. And as best 00:16:51.860 --> 00:16:54.360 I can remember, I just said something, tell me 00:16:54.360 --> 00:16:55.820 your story. Tell me who you are. Tell me what 00:16:55.820 --> 00:16:57.700 you believe. Tell me how you got there. And just 00:16:57.700 --> 00:17:01.879 listen and understand. That's at the root of 00:17:01.879 --> 00:17:05.420 so much of this. So great stories, powerful stuff, 00:17:05.519 --> 00:17:09.380 Chip. It was quite a journey. And when he said 00:17:09.380 --> 00:17:13.599 that, tears just started streaming down my face. 00:17:14.079 --> 00:17:17.259 And it was just, it was so painful on the one 00:17:17.259 --> 00:17:21.109 hand, and yet I had lived where he lived. I didn't 00:17:21.109 --> 00:17:23.670 grow up believing in Jesus. And so, you know, 00:17:23.690 --> 00:17:25.509 it was just probably one of those times where 00:17:25.509 --> 00:17:28.490 my lack of response was probably the best thing 00:17:28.490 --> 00:17:32.069 I could have ever done other than it broke my 00:17:32.069 --> 00:17:35.029 heart. Of course. But, you know, as we're talking 00:17:35.029 --> 00:17:38.109 here, a lot of things boil down to real personal 00:17:38.109 --> 00:17:41.069 relationship. And as I heard you, be curious, 00:17:41.289 --> 00:17:44.450 ask questions, find out where did this start, 00:17:44.670 --> 00:17:48.670 give people some space. And I'm going to write 00:17:48.670 --> 00:17:50.940 this down for my... pastoral counseling in the 00:17:50.940 --> 00:17:55.339 future, your words, don't freak out. That was 00:17:55.339 --> 00:17:58.680 a great line. As you're with young people all 00:17:58.680 --> 00:18:01.119 the time now, what are the challenges? Where 00:18:01.119 --> 00:18:03.519 do the struggles come up? And what's been the 00:18:03.519 --> 00:18:06.559 most effective way to help them develop their 00:18:06.559 --> 00:18:09.279 own faith, which really is the goal here. We're 00:18:09.279 --> 00:18:11.220 not trying to figure out how as parents or pastors 00:18:11.220 --> 00:18:14.420 or grandparents to brainwash our kids to get 00:18:14.420 --> 00:18:16.480 in a little box and believe this or believe that. 00:18:17.289 --> 00:18:20.349 It's to meet the living God and know emotionally 00:18:20.349 --> 00:18:23.750 and intellectually and volitionally, this is 00:18:23.750 --> 00:18:26.930 true and I believe it for me. Yeah, that's a 00:18:26.930 --> 00:18:28.869 good two -part question. Let's start with the 00:18:28.869 --> 00:18:30.710 first part that you said about the challenges 00:18:30.710 --> 00:18:33.150 that they face and then get to what the positive 00:18:33.150 --> 00:18:36.329 steps are that we can take biblically. I think 00:18:36.329 --> 00:18:38.349 there's different kinds of challenges. I think 00:18:38.349 --> 00:18:40.329 in this generation, of course, we're hearing 00:18:40.329 --> 00:18:44.039 about anxiety. and depression and loneliness. 00:18:44.400 --> 00:18:48.839 So mental health issues in some ways affect the 00:18:48.839 --> 00:18:52.079 way we process truth. It becomes like a filter 00:18:52.079 --> 00:18:54.680 through which we read the scriptures, sometimes 00:18:54.680 --> 00:18:59.119 positively, sometimes negatively. There was just 00:18:59.119 --> 00:19:02.500 an article last week in the New York Times talking 00:19:02.500 --> 00:19:07.200 about how since 2019, The percentage of nuns 00:19:07.200 --> 00:19:10.359 has flatlined. So we've heard since the 90s that 00:19:10.359 --> 00:19:12.859 N -O -N -E -S, those who are not religious, has 00:19:12.859 --> 00:19:15.859 been increasing, yet it's flatlined. And yet 00:19:15.859 --> 00:19:17.920 this article said, and they were citing Ryan 00:19:17.920 --> 00:19:20.160 Burge, who's one of the experts on this, that 00:19:20.160 --> 00:19:23.339 as older generations die out and millennials 00:19:23.339 --> 00:19:27.119 and Gen Zers become more of the population, the 00:19:27.119 --> 00:19:30.460 shift towards nuns and secularism is going to 00:19:30.460 --> 00:19:33.519 increase substantially. And I think he's probably 00:19:33.519 --> 00:19:38.569 right. The thing they said was, this is one piece 00:19:38.569 --> 00:19:42.630 of it, but they said just the church abuse scandals. 00:19:42.809 --> 00:19:45.730 They said a lot of younger Christians, maybe 00:19:45.730 --> 00:19:48.650 30 and below, and non -Christians are looking 00:19:48.650 --> 00:19:51.069 at the church saying, are they necessarily more 00:19:51.069 --> 00:19:54.369 moral than I am? Are they good? Are they really 00:19:54.369 --> 00:19:57.170 living differently? And if they're not, this 00:19:57.170 --> 00:19:59.390 is back to your point earlier, Chip. Like if 00:19:59.390 --> 00:20:01.829 we're not living it and modeling the life of 00:20:01.829 --> 00:20:05.299 Christ. It doesn't matter what we say, what apologetic 00:20:05.299 --> 00:20:08.960 we give. There's issues of just our witness in 00:20:08.960 --> 00:20:12.680 this frazzled, polarized, angry culture. I think 00:20:12.680 --> 00:20:14.880 questions of science and faith still bubble to 00:20:14.880 --> 00:20:17.819 the surface, especially with artificial intelligence 00:20:17.819 --> 00:20:23.440 and the soul and the afterlife and evolution. 00:20:23.480 --> 00:20:26.079 Like science is still such an authority in our 00:20:26.079 --> 00:20:28.900 culture that that comes. And then I think questions 00:20:28.900 --> 00:20:32.420 about just the exclusivity of faith. I mean, 00:20:32.420 --> 00:20:34.160 this generation, I was talking yesterday with 00:20:34.160 --> 00:20:35.940 my students at Biola how when I was in high school, 00:20:35.980 --> 00:20:37.880 it was like everyone was talking about tolerance. 00:20:38.299 --> 00:20:43.079 Now it's diversity and inclusiveness. And yet 00:20:43.079 --> 00:20:45.660 the gospel, you know, some think it's a white 00:20:45.660 --> 00:20:48.200 man's religion. Whether true or not, they think 00:20:48.200 --> 00:20:52.460 it's not diverse. And also, it seems exclusive, 00:20:52.759 --> 00:20:57.039 the opposite of inclusivity. So that's exploded 00:20:57.039 --> 00:20:59.319 with this generation in a way that's different 00:20:59.319 --> 00:21:01.559 with previous generations, arguably, at least 00:21:01.559 --> 00:21:04.400 at this stage of development. I think some of 00:21:04.400 --> 00:21:08.079 the intellectual questions are things like, I 00:21:08.079 --> 00:21:10.000 mean, I just get questions all the time about 00:21:10.000 --> 00:21:14.420 sexuality everywhere I go. The LGBTQ conversation. 00:21:15.680 --> 00:21:18.819 And it's not just what does Romans 1 say about 00:21:18.819 --> 00:21:20.779 this? So what does the science show about whether 00:21:20.779 --> 00:21:23.079 you're born this way or not? It's I have a friend 00:21:23.079 --> 00:21:26.119 who's this way. And can I really love Jesus and 00:21:26.119 --> 00:21:29.019 love them? Am I a bigot? How do I navigate this? 00:21:29.099 --> 00:21:31.900 Like those are real questions that I think this 00:21:31.900 --> 00:21:34.619 generation is wrestling with. And so we got to 00:21:34.619 --> 00:21:37.519 walk them through what scripture says, why it 00:21:37.519 --> 00:21:40.720 says it and why it's good for them. I'm going 00:21:40.720 --> 00:21:44.480 to say at the root of the Christian ethic. is 00:21:44.480 --> 00:21:47.940 to love our neighbor. Why? Because they're made 00:21:47.940 --> 00:21:50.960 in the image of God. This is a Judeo -Christian 00:21:50.960 --> 00:21:54.099 belief. Gay or straight, regardless of sexual 00:21:54.099 --> 00:21:56.859 orientation, you have infinite value because 00:21:56.859 --> 00:22:00.599 you reflect our creator. So it is the Christian 00:22:00.599 --> 00:22:04.140 ethic Jesus gave, you know, the Samaritan, about 00:22:04.140 --> 00:22:07.220 loving those who might be different. So let's 00:22:07.220 --> 00:22:09.880 start there and ask, what does it look like to 00:22:09.880 --> 00:22:14.529 love our neighbors, LGBTQ or not? Well, then 00:22:14.529 --> 00:22:17.210 let's ask the question. Some of this really, 00:22:17.289 --> 00:22:19.069 I would take a step back, is a question of biblical 00:22:19.069 --> 00:22:22.390 authority. I really think the root is, do we 00:22:22.390 --> 00:22:24.849 take authority from culture, from our feelings, 00:22:25.089 --> 00:22:27.730 from experience, ultimately from science or from 00:22:27.730 --> 00:22:30.210 scripture? So in some ways, we've got to come 00:22:30.210 --> 00:22:32.869 back to the question of what do we consider authoritative 00:22:32.869 --> 00:22:36.529 and why? Which is why with this generation, we 00:22:36.529 --> 00:22:38.690 not only have to teach them what the Bible says, 00:22:38.950 --> 00:22:44.200 but why it says what it says. So my 12 -year 00:22:44.200 --> 00:22:46.700 -old son, we were just talking. We do breakfast 00:22:46.700 --> 00:22:49.460 together in the morning when we can. And I've 00:22:49.460 --> 00:22:51.059 been talking with him, either Gospel of John, 00:22:51.220 --> 00:22:54.079 or I've been talking with him about this book 00:22:54.079 --> 00:22:56.480 on how to talk to your kids about sex. And I 00:22:56.480 --> 00:22:59.000 just said, what is God's design for sex? He gave 00:22:59.000 --> 00:23:01.339 an answer for it. And I just said, why do you 00:23:01.339 --> 00:23:04.740 think God gives that design? And I listened to 00:23:04.740 --> 00:23:06.720 him and I said, you know, God's design is to 00:23:06.720 --> 00:23:09.839 protect us. When we step outside of God's design, 00:23:09.960 --> 00:23:12.740 there can be emotional hurt. There can be relational 00:23:12.740 --> 00:23:15.559 wounding. There can be things like STDs when 00:23:15.559 --> 00:23:18.980 we step outside of God's design. But positively, 00:23:20.019 --> 00:23:22.500 I said, buddy, he's 12. I said, do you think 00:23:22.500 --> 00:23:24.559 it's important for a kid to have a mom and a 00:23:24.559 --> 00:23:29.039 dad? He said, yeah. I said, do moms parent differently 00:23:29.039 --> 00:23:32.180 than dads parent? He said, yes. That's God's 00:23:32.180 --> 00:23:35.359 design and that's good. So one of the reasons 00:23:35.359 --> 00:23:37.759 God says marriage is one man and one woman in 00:23:37.759 --> 00:23:40.099 a committed relationship for life is so kids 00:23:40.099 --> 00:23:43.779 grow up. in the optimal environment where they 00:23:43.779 --> 00:23:48.000 have a mom and a dad. And the sociological research 00:23:48.000 --> 00:23:50.819 shows that that's the environment in which we 00:23:50.819 --> 00:23:55.500 flourish most. So that's a few points that I 00:23:55.500 --> 00:23:57.980 would make. And the T is different than the L 00:23:57.980 --> 00:24:00.559 and the G and the B. Speaking to a Christian 00:24:00.559 --> 00:24:02.480 kid is different than speaking to somebody who's 00:24:02.480 --> 00:24:05.180 a non -Christian. But I just want to pull back 00:24:05.180 --> 00:24:07.220 and say, God is the one who gave us the ethic 00:24:07.220 --> 00:24:09.480 of equality. God is the one who gave us the ethic 00:24:09.480 --> 00:24:12.750 of Love your neighbor. God is the one who gave 00:24:12.750 --> 00:24:16.589 us the ethic that we have value because we are 00:24:16.589 --> 00:24:19.809 human. But that same God designed marriage and 00:24:19.809 --> 00:24:23.430 he designed our bodies to operate a certain way. 00:24:23.569 --> 00:24:26.150 And when we follow the owner's manual, which 00:24:26.150 --> 00:24:29.750 is according to God's design, we actually flourish 00:24:29.750 --> 00:24:33.029 as human beings most. So these are some of the 00:24:33.029 --> 00:24:35.309 questions this generation wrestles with as a 00:24:35.309 --> 00:24:37.869 whole. The best thing I found is when I have 00:24:37.869 --> 00:24:39.329 a young person in front of me is I don't want 00:24:39.329 --> 00:24:41.349 to assume they're wrestling with A, B, or C. 00:24:41.789 --> 00:24:44.990 I just want to ask questions, listen, and figure 00:24:44.990 --> 00:24:48.170 out the heart of what they're dealing with and 00:24:48.170 --> 00:24:54.799 try to address that if I can. This is Living 00:24:54.799 --> 00:24:57.140 on the Edge with Chip Ingram, and you've been 00:24:57.140 --> 00:24:58.920 listening to the first half of Chip's interview 00:24:58.920 --> 00:25:02.200 with author and apologist Sean McDowell. To go 00:25:02.200 --> 00:25:04.680 back and listen to any part of this series, Dealing 00:25:04.680 --> 00:25:09.200 with Doubts, visit livingontheedge .org. And 00:25:09.200 --> 00:25:11.220 in case you missed any of the helpful books, 00:25:11.460 --> 00:25:14.640 articles, or podcasts that Sean or Chip mentioned 00:25:14.640 --> 00:25:17.220 today, let me encourage you to check out the 00:25:17.220 --> 00:25:20.440 resources page. We've organized all of the valuable 00:25:20.440 --> 00:25:22.779 and supporting tools referenced throughout this 00:25:22.779 --> 00:25:25.880 series in one place. So visit livingontheedge 00:25:25.880 --> 00:25:29.240 .org to learn more. Well, join us next time as 00:25:29.240 --> 00:25:31.519 we close out our series, Dealing with Doubts, 00:25:31.519 --> 00:25:33.839 with the remainder of Chip's insightful conversation 00:25:33.839 --> 00:25:37.039 with Sean McDowell. Until then, I'm Dave Drewy 00:25:37.039 --> 00:25:39.259 saying thanks for listening to this edition of 00:25:39.259 --> 00:25:40.420 Living on the Edge.