WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.459 I look at every issue, I look at every comment 00:00:03.459 --> 00:00:06.780 as a learning opportunity. Okay, well, you're 00:00:06.780 --> 00:00:10.220 going to be doing gigabytes of learning, because 00:00:10.220 --> 00:00:15.960 you don't have any pushback mechanism. I mean, 00:00:16.019 --> 00:00:18.820 okay, you're going to be drinking from the fire 00:00:18.820 --> 00:00:22.420 hose. Your learning opportunities will be endless. 00:00:22.820 --> 00:00:25.500 We have Sybil and Franklin in chat. Have you 00:00:25.500 --> 00:00:29.140 seen this guy? Yeah, I like his channel a lot. 00:00:29.629 --> 00:00:32.670 Oh, yeah? You've seen him? He's also a philosophical 00:00:32.670 --> 00:00:37.210 guy. Yeah. He's into Adderall. He's not into 00:00:37.210 --> 00:00:40.270 Adderall. Apparently, he's not in the last few 00:00:40.270 --> 00:00:42.670 videos, Sylvan. Are you still into it or not? 00:00:43.329 --> 00:00:46.250 Or you haven't decided yet? We had a live stream. 00:00:46.450 --> 00:00:48.530 Let me tell you about this. We had a live stream 00:00:48.530 --> 00:00:51.829 planned. We joined, all of us, and he never joined. 00:00:51.969 --> 00:00:55.049 And I was like, Sylvan, are you joining? He never 00:00:55.049 --> 00:00:57.869 joined. That was the day he stopped the Adderall. 00:00:58.009 --> 00:01:02.649 Yeah, man. crazy no more adderall he says um 00:01:02.649 --> 00:01:06.250 and he got put on a psych ward that day so that's 00:01:06.250 --> 00:01:09.969 why he didn't join the live stream i double click 00:01:09.969 --> 00:01:14.409 on this see it it opens in kitty in any of them 00:01:14.409 --> 00:01:18.290 instance that's what i want ghosty because he's 00:01:18.290 --> 00:01:22.209 not giving me this i see they they pretend that 00:01:22.209 --> 00:01:26.329 it is possible and i think they're wrong okay 00:01:26.329 --> 00:01:30.810 now Now that you mentioned Kitty as well, I had 00:01:30.810 --> 00:01:33.790 an interview with COVID. He's the creator of 00:01:33.790 --> 00:01:36.849 Kitty. I watched it. Oh, you watched it? What 00:01:36.849 --> 00:01:39.390 are your thoughts? Because I had a bad image 00:01:39.390 --> 00:01:41.930 on COVID, to be honest, because I don't know 00:01:41.930 --> 00:01:44.569 why, you know, just videos that you watch on 00:01:44.569 --> 00:01:48.439 the internet and you just follow along. And after 00:01:48.439 --> 00:01:51.239 the interview... Oh, because of his comments 00:01:51.239 --> 00:01:55.299 on the issue track. Yeah, exactly, because of 00:01:55.299 --> 00:02:00.780 that. He's not shy about... He won't just say, 00:02:00.879 --> 00:02:03.420 you're wrong, but he'll say, you should feel 00:02:03.420 --> 00:02:06.959 bad. I don't know if that's true. I'm spreading 00:02:06.959 --> 00:02:10.199 misinformation, but he's not shy about adding 00:02:10.199 --> 00:02:14.039 a little spice to... i'm not like trying to bling 00:02:14.039 --> 00:02:17.240 out my shell so that it has like all these colors 00:02:17.240 --> 00:02:26.639 i i'm not i i have not that's not i haven't well 00:02:26.639 --> 00:02:28.319 kickstart has gone off the rails i don't know 00:02:28.319 --> 00:02:31.340 what kickstart is doing now these days it was 00:02:31.340 --> 00:02:33.800 supposed to be like a minimal thing that like 00:02:33.800 --> 00:02:36.979 is commented and shows you how to do things and 00:02:36.979 --> 00:02:41.050 now it's like a distro installing The universe 00:02:41.050 --> 00:02:44.189 and just doing all this stuff. How do you get 00:02:44.189 --> 00:02:48.409 to normal mode? I use control left bracket. Oh, 00:02:48.430 --> 00:02:52.830 really? That's the goaded way. Why? Why, Justin? 00:02:52.949 --> 00:02:55.389 Can you explain why? Once you get used to it, 00:02:55.490 --> 00:03:00.110 you won't go back. I tried JK. JK is terrible. 00:03:00.710 --> 00:03:03.250 No, KJ. The other way around. Because this finger 00:03:03.250 --> 00:03:05.610 is faster. You do both. You do both. Damn. Just 00:03:05.610 --> 00:03:08.430 like this. You can map them both. Are there alligators 00:03:08.430 --> 00:03:11.389 in Florida? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Are you used to that? 00:03:11.430 --> 00:03:13.629 Go golfing. If you go golfing, you'll see alligators. 00:03:13.930 --> 00:03:16.069 Yeah. Are you scared of them? People's like, 00:03:16.229 --> 00:03:18.409 what is this conversation about? Are we talking 00:03:18.409 --> 00:03:20.530 about any of them or what? What's going on here? 00:03:20.990 --> 00:03:23.069 Are you afraid? We're getting into the spicy 00:03:23.069 --> 00:03:26.590 segment of the show. Yeah. What are the plans 00:03:26.590 --> 00:03:29.590 when you're no longer around? Let's say that 00:03:29.590 --> 00:03:32.849 one day you decide, no, you know what? Emax is 00:03:32.849 --> 00:03:35.389 for me. So I'm going to jump off. and I'm going 00:03:35.389 --> 00:03:37.590 to go to Emacs. What's going to happen to new 00:03:37.590 --> 00:03:39.949 of them? The people that want to extend stuff, 00:03:40.129 --> 00:03:44.009 or the people that have particular tastes. Higher 00:03:44.009 --> 00:03:48.650 tastes, right? No, you're not going to bait me 00:03:48.650 --> 00:03:51.330 into this kind of thing. The whole distro thing 00:03:51.330 --> 00:03:55.169 is kind of an accident. I think probably Linus 00:03:55.169 --> 00:03:58.229 himself is kind of puzzled by this whole situation, 00:03:58.490 --> 00:04:01.270 because he's working on a kernel. He just wants... 00:04:01.639 --> 00:04:03.840 To get his kernel on his computer and then like 00:04:03.840 --> 00:04:06.139 all these different flavors of the user space 00:04:06.139 --> 00:04:08.479 stuff is like. If you're listening to this as 00:04:08.479 --> 00:04:10.659 a podcast, remember that it was originally recorded 00:04:10.659 --> 00:04:12.740 as a video. If you're not following along, you 00:04:12.740 --> 00:04:14.520 can go to my YouTube channel. My username is 00:04:14.520 --> 00:04:16.339 Link Karzu. And if you want to support me to 00:04:16.339 --> 00:04:18.639 keep this podcast going, you can donate in Ko 00:04:18.639 --> 00:04:20.259 -fi. I'm going to leave a link in the description. 00:04:20.579 --> 00:04:22.420 All right. So let's get started with this chapter 00:04:22.420 --> 00:04:27.279 then. Hey, Justin. What's up? What's up? How's 00:04:27.279 --> 00:04:30.779 it going? Hello. Hello, Link. We're just hanging 00:04:30.779 --> 00:04:33.800 out. Yeah, I see a little bit pixelated there, 00:04:33.920 --> 00:04:36.660 but that's going to fix in a little while. It's 00:04:36.660 --> 00:04:38.699 going to be on and off, I guess, but it's good. 00:04:38.819 --> 00:04:41.740 We're going to survive. I mean, that's what New 00:04:41.740 --> 00:04:44.639 York City internet gets you, I guess. Oh, yeah? 00:04:44.860 --> 00:04:48.279 So you're based out of New York then? I'm here 00:04:48.279 --> 00:04:52.899 for now. Oh, yeah? Exploring. I'm an explorer 00:04:52.899 --> 00:04:56.560 in a dangerous part of the world. Oh, really? 00:04:57.439 --> 00:05:00.959 I'm a pioneer. Yeah. Where do you usually hang 00:05:00.959 --> 00:05:03.439 out? You like being in New York a lot or you 00:05:03.439 --> 00:05:06.100 like staying in another state most of the time? 00:05:06.199 --> 00:05:10.620 I like Florida. I like Berlin. Where are you 00:05:10.620 --> 00:05:13.579 originally from? Are you from the U .S. or from 00:05:13.579 --> 00:05:16.879 where? I'm originally from Florida, I guess, 00:05:17.040 --> 00:05:21.459 mostly. Technically, I was born elsewhere, but 00:05:21.459 --> 00:05:27.339 in the U .S. Okay, okay. So, Justin. Really appreciate 00:05:27.339 --> 00:05:31.079 you being here, man. It's Sunday and really appreciate 00:05:31.079 --> 00:05:35.100 your time. The goal of this conversation is just 00:05:35.100 --> 00:05:38.180 get to know you a little bit more. I think there's 00:05:38.180 --> 00:05:41.300 a lot of videos of you out there, but I want 00:05:41.300 --> 00:05:43.839 to ask some questions and probably chat, have 00:05:43.839 --> 00:05:48.319 some questions as well. So really thanks. Really 00:05:48.319 --> 00:05:50.819 appreciate your time. Well, yeah, that's a nice 00:05:50.819 --> 00:05:54.180 relaxing format. Takes the pressure off because 00:05:54.180 --> 00:06:00.000 I'm kind of unprepared. oh yeah okay now there's 00:06:00.000 --> 00:06:01.860 a question that i have and that i would like 00:06:01.860 --> 00:06:05.540 to start with is why do you do all this like 00:06:05.540 --> 00:06:10.480 why do you put so much effort into an open source 00:06:10.480 --> 00:06:14.639 tool like any of them what's what's the purpose 00:06:14.639 --> 00:06:19.300 is it ego is it you love the tool too much or 00:06:19.300 --> 00:06:23.939 that's a good question um One that I have asked 00:06:23.939 --> 00:06:26.439 myself, probably anyone who's working on anything 00:06:26.439 --> 00:06:30.480 probably asks that, and should. You should be 00:06:30.480 --> 00:06:32.040 sure that you're working on the right things. 00:06:32.199 --> 00:06:35.660 It's somewhat of an obsession, somewhat of ego, 00:06:35.839 --> 00:06:40.220 probably, like, I like to be right, and if Niovin 00:06:40.220 --> 00:06:43.600 wins, then that means I was right, and all the 00:06:43.600 --> 00:06:47.509 people that really kind of... dumped on it in 00:06:47.509 --> 00:06:50.410 the first few years were wrong. A lot of them 00:06:50.410 --> 00:06:53.230 have just kind of faded away, but there was some 00:06:53.230 --> 00:06:58.870 famous or infamous or just a bunch of nags on 00:06:58.870 --> 00:07:03.149 Reddit in the first half, probably, of Neovim's 00:07:03.149 --> 00:07:07.149 life that just were relentlessly kind of irritating 00:07:07.149 --> 00:07:12.610 me with their drive -by opinions. And yeah, I 00:07:12.610 --> 00:07:14.550 don't know. That's probably not a good reason 00:07:14.550 --> 00:07:18.959 to to put lots of time into something. There's 00:07:18.959 --> 00:07:21.699 probably other reasons, but I'm like branching 00:07:21.699 --> 00:07:25.019 off into this one tangent just because it feels 00:07:25.019 --> 00:07:28.259 cathartic, but that might also be unhealthy. 00:07:28.660 --> 00:07:33.220 Yeah, so they were wrong. Niovin won, and it 00:07:33.220 --> 00:07:37.839 turned out to be useful. But ironically, you 00:07:37.839 --> 00:07:40.360 know, there's always the larger picture to think 00:07:40.360 --> 00:07:43.180 about, which is like our text editors, you know, 00:07:43.180 --> 00:07:45.939 even... even still relevant? Will they be relevant 00:07:45.939 --> 00:07:48.720 in five years or ten years? That's always something 00:07:48.720 --> 00:07:51.699 I revisit that at least once a year, although 00:07:51.699 --> 00:07:54.540 I think probably I've beat it to death by now 00:07:54.540 --> 00:07:58.339 in my talks, so I'm not going to talk about that 00:07:58.339 --> 00:08:01.620 in my talks anymore because I think I've beat 00:08:01.620 --> 00:08:05.519 it to death. It's good to just ask questions 00:08:05.519 --> 00:08:09.279 and make sure you're on the right path for whatever 00:08:09.279 --> 00:08:12.259 you're doing. Obviously, that's kind of a trivial 00:08:12.259 --> 00:08:15.480 thing to say, but but it's something that projects 00:08:15.480 --> 00:08:18.839 probably don't do like if you don't have that 00:08:18.839 --> 00:08:21.579 kind of like this is partly beaten into me from 00:08:21.579 --> 00:08:24.019 amazon i've been working at amazon for a while 00:08:24.019 --> 00:08:30.980 and so you still work at amazon yes um and but 00:08:30.980 --> 00:08:34.600 like so one of the uncomfortable but but productive 00:08:34.600 --> 00:08:39.000 habits that that you get from there if you're 00:08:39.000 --> 00:08:41.779 going to stick around then you you eventually 00:08:41.779 --> 00:08:44.120 will have to accept this habit and it is a good 00:08:44.120 --> 00:08:46.600 habit which is you know at least once or twice 00:08:46.600 --> 00:08:49.820 a year they have something called op1 where they 00:08:49.820 --> 00:08:53.259 kind of write down some goals and and lay out 00:08:53.259 --> 00:08:57.299 you know a path the takeaway there is just you 00:08:57.299 --> 00:09:00.940 know writing down like one page of whatever and 00:09:00.940 --> 00:09:05.779 then analyzing it and lift useful information 00:09:05.779 --> 00:09:10.210 that even though like in the back of your mind 00:09:10.210 --> 00:09:12.529 you might think it's it's obvious but but if 00:09:12.529 --> 00:09:15.210 you if you don't really ever like pause and focus 00:09:15.210 --> 00:09:18.850 on any particular thought then it will eventually 00:09:18.850 --> 00:09:22.049 like the the cached conclusion that you have 00:09:22.049 --> 00:09:25.090 for that thought or assumption will get stale 00:09:25.090 --> 00:09:27.809 um and so you actually do have to bring it to 00:09:27.809 --> 00:09:31.789 like the foreground of your mind and maybe of 00:09:31.789 --> 00:09:34.509 your team's mind because teams are an organism 00:09:34.509 --> 00:09:38.509 just like your brain is like a organic That can 00:09:38.509 --> 00:09:44.149 actually cover useful answers to stuff that you 00:09:44.149 --> 00:09:48.029 haven't revisited in a long time. So once a year 00:09:48.029 --> 00:09:51.230 is a good frequency to do that, probably. At 00:09:51.230 --> 00:09:54.110 a certain point in what you were saying right 00:09:54.110 --> 00:09:57.129 now, you mentioned that you got hate in Reddit 00:09:57.129 --> 00:10:00.169 at the beginning. Why was that? What was the 00:10:00.169 --> 00:10:03.570 complaint like? Do you remember? Yeah. I mean, 00:10:03.690 --> 00:10:07.649 one guy liked to... complain that we didn't support 00:10:07.649 --> 00:10:12.129 sigwin yeah one of the earliest complaints on 00:10:12.129 --> 00:10:14.950 hacker news of course was like that we dropped 00:10:14.950 --> 00:10:18.269 port for old operating systems but that's one 00:10:18.269 --> 00:10:20.950 of my favorite examples to trot out because like 00:10:20.950 --> 00:10:23.750 it turned out that vim didn't even work on those 00:10:23.750 --> 00:10:27.230 operating systems like the code was there but 00:10:27.230 --> 00:10:31.570 it was just mostly dead code because vim at that 00:10:31.570 --> 00:10:33.730 time barely vim at that time didn't even have 00:10:33.730 --> 00:10:38.919 a ci when Neovim was first founded. So that was 00:10:38.919 --> 00:10:42.539 like a Neovim innovation was to have CI that 00:10:42.539 --> 00:10:46.639 runs on every commit. And I think maybe a more 00:10:46.639 --> 00:10:50.299 general complaint was just that we were diverting 00:10:50.299 --> 00:10:55.059 energy from one project because forks are assumed 00:10:55.059 --> 00:10:59.840 to do that, which can be a valid complaint. But 00:10:59.840 --> 00:11:04.129 yeah, that's probably... Not worth rehashing, 00:11:04.289 --> 00:11:09.490 but for the two years before Vim was founded, 00:11:09.610 --> 00:11:11.809 Vim was basically in maintenance mode at the 00:11:11.809 --> 00:11:17.250 time. And this was explicitly said by Bram on 00:11:17.250 --> 00:11:19.789 the mailing list. So it was founded in a different 00:11:19.789 --> 00:11:22.309 time. And then you could say, well, okay, a year 00:11:22.309 --> 00:11:26.809 or two later when Bram changed course, then maybe 00:11:26.809 --> 00:11:30.330 we should have folded back into Vim, which... 00:11:30.750 --> 00:11:34.090 We would have been happy to do, and I still to 00:11:34.090 --> 00:11:36.970 this day think of Neovim as basically a branch 00:11:36.970 --> 00:11:41.549 that hasn't been merged back into Vim. They could 00:11:41.549 --> 00:11:44.929 do that at any time. There's no real reason that 00:11:44.929 --> 00:11:49.610 Clipboard needs to be implemented with 5 ,000 00:11:49.610 --> 00:11:52.169 lines of code instead of just five lines of code 00:11:52.169 --> 00:11:55.870 in the way that it's done in Neovim. I don't 00:11:55.870 --> 00:11:59.950 know. They will continue to do. what they want 00:11:59.950 --> 00:12:03.610 to do and i also don't think that like i think 00:12:03.610 --> 00:12:05.629 it's pretty it's kind of it's definitely obvious 00:12:05.629 --> 00:12:08.529 in hindsight but but the fork in this case probably 00:12:08.529 --> 00:12:11.809 brought more energy into the space than than 00:12:11.809 --> 00:12:14.470 uh just subtracting from it like it probably 00:12:14.470 --> 00:12:18.169 multiplied the energy and so both projects have 00:12:18.169 --> 00:12:22.230 uh thrived since then relative to uh where vim 00:12:22.230 --> 00:12:26.110 was uh in the previous decade you can look at 00:12:26.110 --> 00:12:29.179 like any kind of metric any kind of metric I 00:12:29.179 --> 00:12:31.559 mean, it's not just like population increased 00:12:31.559 --> 00:12:33.559 that Vim kept getting more users. It was like 00:12:33.559 --> 00:12:38.539 both Vim and NeoVim have gotten somewhat, the 00:12:38.539 --> 00:12:42.379 rate of new users increased. And at the time, 00:12:42.399 --> 00:12:46.620 like Vim was actually maybe flattening. And also 00:12:46.620 --> 00:12:49.379 you can look at like donations. That's another 00:12:49.379 --> 00:12:55.240 metric. Reddit. subscribers to the subreddits 00:12:55.240 --> 00:12:57.440 for Vim and NeoVim. There's all these different 00:12:57.440 --> 00:13:00.179 kinds of signals you can look at that just make 00:13:00.179 --> 00:13:03.120 it hard to argue that a fork in this case was 00:13:03.120 --> 00:13:07.080 a cost instead of a benefit. I do agree with 00:13:07.080 --> 00:13:09.940 and I understand the sentiment about dividing 00:13:09.940 --> 00:13:15.899 energy. That's a valid thing and it is certainly 00:13:15.899 --> 00:13:20.820 like in most cases forks fail and so the initial 00:13:21.740 --> 00:13:25.639 will be derision because a lot of times they're 00:13:25.639 --> 00:13:27.940 forked without really knowing what you're going 00:13:27.940 --> 00:13:31.379 to get into. And the people forking stuff just 00:13:31.379 --> 00:13:36.120 aren't going to stick around for too long. Do 00:13:36.120 --> 00:13:40.340 you think that NeoVim moves faster than Vim? 00:13:40.639 --> 00:13:43.759 I don't know how it is on Vim now that Bram is 00:13:43.759 --> 00:13:46.940 gone, but do you think that's different between 00:13:46.940 --> 00:13:51.120 the two projects? Oh, there's no question. There's 00:13:51.120 --> 00:13:54.360 no question. NeoVim moves probably 10 times as 00:13:54.360 --> 00:13:57.159 fast as Vim, though. And one of the reasons is 00:13:57.159 --> 00:13:59.919 that you can contribute core features as Lua. 00:14:00.279 --> 00:14:02.179 And that was one of the original goals. And one 00:14:02.179 --> 00:14:04.519 of the reasons why we didn't just fold back into 00:14:04.519 --> 00:14:07.139 Vim in the first place is because there's all 00:14:07.139 --> 00:14:12.799 these kinds of architectural and project layout 00:14:12.799 --> 00:14:20.669 approaches that were clearly... at least to us, 00:14:20.889 --> 00:14:24.450 things that needed to be adopted in VIM. And 00:14:24.450 --> 00:14:27.669 just like also giving more people the right access 00:14:27.669 --> 00:14:32.070 to the main branch, which is something that didn't 00:14:32.070 --> 00:14:37.629 happen really until very late in VIM's lifetime. 00:14:37.909 --> 00:14:42.610 Like I think Christian Brabant technically had 00:14:42.610 --> 00:14:46.169 right access, but he never wrote to the master 00:14:46.169 --> 00:14:49.789 branch directly. And it was also just more of 00:14:49.789 --> 00:14:52.009 like a cultural thing where it's like no one 00:14:52.009 --> 00:14:54.929 felt that they had ownership over any particular 00:14:54.929 --> 00:14:58.490 subsystem except for Bram. Bram owned all of 00:14:58.490 --> 00:15:00.529 the subsystems except for maybe like a couple 00:15:00.529 --> 00:15:02.809 like the Python interface or something like that. 00:15:03.549 --> 00:15:08.009 And how is it with Neobim? Are you the dictator, 00:15:08.309 --> 00:15:10.870 the Neobim dictator? Do you take all the calls 00:15:10.870 --> 00:15:15.350 or how does that happen? I don't know. I'm not 00:15:15.350 --> 00:15:19.169 an expert in every subsystem at all. I try to, 00:15:19.190 --> 00:15:24.549 I try to have a mental model of every subsystem 00:15:24.549 --> 00:15:28.009 so that like at least one person, hopefully more 00:15:28.009 --> 00:15:31.009 than one person, but at least one person can 00:15:31.009 --> 00:15:33.769 tie things together and think about the system 00:15:33.769 --> 00:15:38.470 holistically, like as a, you know, an integrated 00:15:38.470 --> 00:15:41.909 whole so that we aren't, because if you don't 00:15:41.909 --> 00:15:44.809 have that, then you, it kind of turns into just 00:15:44.809 --> 00:15:49.700 like a, a bunch of inner platforms that are like 00:15:49.700 --> 00:15:54.059 not really working well together and and that 00:15:54.059 --> 00:15:57.639 you know that accretes over time and it it won't 00:15:57.639 --> 00:16:00.879 be obvious at first but like you know five ten 00:16:00.879 --> 00:16:03.279 years later it will be obvious and it'll be hard 00:16:03.279 --> 00:16:08.100 to untangle later okay You mentioned also about 00:16:08.100 --> 00:16:11.259 NeoBeam's popularity. I got to know NeoBeam because 00:16:11.259 --> 00:16:13.919 of Prime, because I watch a lot of YouTube. And 00:16:13.919 --> 00:16:15.860 I saw this guy, you know, I used them in the 00:16:15.860 --> 00:16:19.019 past in servers. And I hated it. You know, the 00:16:19.019 --> 00:16:21.299 first few times I used Vim, I was like, why do 00:16:21.299 --> 00:16:24.179 people use this? It's awful. You know, H -J -K 00:16:24.179 --> 00:16:27.139 -L, you know, insert normal mode. I was like, 00:16:27.240 --> 00:16:29.860 no, no, this is not for me. But I searched on 00:16:29.860 --> 00:16:32.840 YouTube and I found Prime. And I found specifically 00:16:32.840 --> 00:16:35.580 when he moved from Vim to NeoVim. And I was like, 00:16:35.740 --> 00:16:40.019 OK, so should I go from Vim or should I go to 00:16:40.019 --> 00:16:42.659 NeoVim? prime said new of him i went to new of 00:16:42.659 --> 00:16:45.580 him you know straight ahead into new of him do 00:16:45.580 --> 00:16:48.360 you think prime has to do a lot with the popularity 00:16:48.360 --> 00:16:51.100 that new of him has in this you know past few 00:16:51.100 --> 00:16:55.679 years yeah without a doubt and tj too tj of course 00:16:55.679 --> 00:16:59.399 and and you and all the other podcasters that 00:16:59.399 --> 00:17:03.279 are kind of talking about it and exploring it 00:17:03.279 --> 00:17:08.599 and thinking about it that all helps um so in 00:17:08.599 --> 00:17:13.799 a way youtube itself is is is responsible for 00:17:13.799 --> 00:17:17.660 some of that but uh i i assume it's also there's 00:17:17.660 --> 00:17:22.079 some of that for emacs but i mean yeah there 00:17:22.079 --> 00:17:25.259 was an inflection point there and certainly prime 00:17:25.259 --> 00:17:28.480 at the time that all happens kind of without 00:17:28.480 --> 00:17:33.099 me even noticing because i'm not a big consumer 00:17:33.099 --> 00:17:38.099 of uh like live streaming coding which i think 00:17:38.589 --> 00:17:41.109 is where Prime came from probably, right? Like 00:17:41.109 --> 00:17:43.470 on Twitch and stuff like that. Like I've thought 00:17:43.470 --> 00:17:46.630 about being a producer of that, but not a consumer. 00:17:47.049 --> 00:17:49.849 And why haven't you done it? When is that happening? 00:17:50.130 --> 00:17:54.349 People would be highly interested, I think. It's 00:17:54.349 --> 00:17:57.529 just one of those things on the to -do list. 00:17:57.630 --> 00:18:01.890 I think I will try to get around to doing it 00:18:01.890 --> 00:18:07.519 maybe next year. Part of it is the discomfort 00:18:07.519 --> 00:18:11.039 of accidentally revealing a password or something 00:18:11.039 --> 00:18:14.180 like that. Yeah, leaking your IP like Prime has 00:18:14.180 --> 00:18:17.079 done multiple times. Well, not his IP, but the 00:18:17.079 --> 00:18:22.019 VM IP. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and so the solution 00:18:22.019 --> 00:18:25.400 to that is maybe to have an isolated environment. 00:18:26.960 --> 00:18:30.440 Right? Is that what you do? I have two monitors. 00:18:30.740 --> 00:18:35.029 This monitor and my laptop. And I have some rules 00:18:35.029 --> 00:18:37.410 on the window manager and Mac OS so that when 00:18:37.410 --> 00:18:40.609 I'm using two monitors, all of the sensitive 00:18:40.609 --> 00:18:45.349 stuff goes to my MacBook. You know, Yabai moves 00:18:45.349 --> 00:18:48.529 it automatically to that. So even if I open one 00:18:48.529 --> 00:18:52.009 password or sensitive stuff, email or something, 00:18:52.170 --> 00:18:55.190 it always open there if I'm using two screens. 00:18:55.410 --> 00:18:58.529 Right. So that happens when I'm streaming. So 00:18:58.529 --> 00:19:04.099 not. completely safe but you know helps because 00:19:04.099 --> 00:19:06.480 i don't want to open my calendar and show it 00:19:06.480 --> 00:19:08.819 on stream i don't want to open my mail my password 00:19:08.819 --> 00:19:11.940 manager and all that stuff so yeah two screens 00:19:11.940 --> 00:19:14.960 um when i'm when i'm streaming and that has helped 00:19:14.960 --> 00:19:18.880 a little bit i think i i think uh i mean there's 00:19:18.880 --> 00:19:21.240 more than one reason that i think probably it 00:19:21.240 --> 00:19:24.599 makes sense to isolate one's development environment 00:19:24.599 --> 00:19:31.099 fully like plug -in supply chain attacks um npm 00:19:31.099 --> 00:19:34.980 supply chain attacks i've seen those videos lately 00:19:34.980 --> 00:19:38.079 yep i i just uh i need to get around to like 00:19:38.079 --> 00:19:42.319 finding a a good setup for that okay what are 00:19:42.319 --> 00:19:44.400 your thoughts on that specifically now that you 00:19:44.400 --> 00:19:48.859 touched on it um plugins and security the trust 00:19:48.859 --> 00:19:51.960 uh that we should have with with plugins and 00:19:51.960 --> 00:19:55.079 how careful we should be would you like to talk 00:19:55.079 --> 00:19:57.500 about any of that because people just find the 00:19:57.500 --> 00:20:00.859 repo on github they own It's a plugin, new plugin. 00:20:00.960 --> 00:20:03.519 I'm going to install it. How can you trust? Because 00:20:03.519 --> 00:20:05.440 once you install a plugin, it can do basically 00:20:05.440 --> 00:20:08.980 get your private keys, SSH private keys, send 00:20:08.980 --> 00:20:11.180 them somewhere you're not even noticed, right? 00:20:11.259 --> 00:20:13.460 So is there something you want to share about 00:20:13.460 --> 00:20:18.220 that? It's been on my mind a lot, especially 00:20:18.220 --> 00:20:20.700 in the last year, because for more than one reason 00:20:20.700 --> 00:20:27.259 at work, we had a pretty close call that was 00:20:27.259 --> 00:20:31.039 in the news. Then before that, there was the 00:20:31.039 --> 00:20:36.319 Geotan thing with the XZ tool. But it's always 00:20:36.319 --> 00:20:40.779 been in the back of my mind since forever. It's 00:20:40.779 --> 00:20:43.740 kind of hilarious that NPM still to this day 00:20:43.740 --> 00:20:46.839 doesn't really check signatures in a meaningful 00:20:46.839 --> 00:20:49.779 way. It doesn't check package signatures. The 00:20:49.779 --> 00:20:52.079 signatures that are in the package lock JSON 00:20:52.079 --> 00:20:59.160 are just kind of optional. There's some... It 00:20:59.160 --> 00:21:03.339 doesn't enforce them somehow fully. I don't remember 00:21:03.339 --> 00:21:06.880 the details, but it's all kind of like the whole 00:21:06.880 --> 00:21:11.319 computing stack of the world is YOLO. This is 00:21:11.319 --> 00:21:15.799 just amazing. It's amazing. I mean, in a way, 00:21:15.880 --> 00:21:20.000 it's a reason for optimism because you can see 00:21:20.000 --> 00:21:22.799 how much humanity can build, and it's mostly 00:21:22.799 --> 00:21:26.880 just based on decency. Most people aren't. trying 00:21:26.880 --> 00:21:29.700 to do supply chain attacks like but it but it 00:21:29.700 --> 00:21:34.259 is also just crazy how how much of the world 00:21:34.259 --> 00:21:39.799 rests on decency and not not being that guy exactly 00:21:39.799 --> 00:21:45.220 but um yeah with respect to neo them like so 00:21:45.220 --> 00:21:49.480 there's more steps i want to take but i i did 00:21:49.480 --> 00:21:54.109 uh do some work to clean up some old uh contributors 00:21:54.109 --> 00:21:59.170 and remove the right access for them but uh going 00:21:59.170 --> 00:22:04.970 forward we need to think hard about more structure 00:22:04.970 --> 00:22:08.829 around that um because there's some creative 00:22:08.829 --> 00:22:13.390 things you can do with github actions ci and 00:22:13.390 --> 00:22:18.509 uh whatever uh maybe like um even like the even 00:22:18.509 --> 00:22:22.940 things that neovim doesn't own but are used commonly 00:22:22.940 --> 00:22:27.720 to fetch NeoVim, those can be compromised. So 00:22:27.720 --> 00:22:33.079 we need operational security that kind of limits 00:22:33.079 --> 00:22:35.640 the number of people that can do things in our 00:22:35.640 --> 00:22:39.680 repo without at least some visibility. GitHub 00:22:39.680 --> 00:22:44.779 has some mechanisms for that, but some of it 00:22:44.779 --> 00:22:47.000 will probably require scripting. Some of it will 00:22:47.000 --> 00:22:51.920 require teaching developers new, workflows for 00:22:51.920 --> 00:22:53.859 committing stuff but we also don't want to be 00:22:53.859 --> 00:22:57.019 like cumbersome because the current model where 00:22:57.019 --> 00:22:59.880 people have ownership and they don't get blocked 00:22:59.880 --> 00:23:01.920 waiting for someone to commit their stuff that's 00:23:01.920 --> 00:23:07.859 very effective um it's uncomfortable yeah i remember 00:23:07.859 --> 00:23:13.440 at the beginning well I installed NeoVim on my 00:23:13.440 --> 00:23:15.980 servers, but they're mine in my home lab, right? 00:23:16.079 --> 00:23:17.859 With all the plugins and all that stuff. And 00:23:17.859 --> 00:23:19.880 I shared it on Reddit and there was a guy that 00:23:19.880 --> 00:23:21.880 said, hey, no, don't do that, you know, because 00:23:21.880 --> 00:23:24.500 of security reasons, right? If you work at a 00:23:24.500 --> 00:23:28.000 company, what would you say someone, let's say 00:23:28.000 --> 00:23:31.400 you're working in, I don't know, AWS, VM, would 00:23:31.400 --> 00:23:34.119 you install NeoVim like in a machine that is 00:23:34.119 --> 00:23:37.769 ran, you know, at the... core of the operations 00:23:37.769 --> 00:23:40.250 of the company, would you install NeoVim there 00:23:40.250 --> 00:23:43.809 with all its plugins? Or would you use like a 00:23:43.809 --> 00:23:46.750 vanilla NeoVim installation? I'm talking about 00:23:46.750 --> 00:23:48.970 security reasons. What would you recommend? Or 00:23:48.970 --> 00:23:52.349 do you keep NeoVim locally and you access the 00:23:52.349 --> 00:23:56.690 NeoVim, the machine, you know, VSSH from NeoVim? 00:23:56.809 --> 00:23:59.869 Or how would you handle that? Or do you have 00:23:59.869 --> 00:24:02.349 any recommendations there? Well, there's a few 00:24:02.349 --> 00:24:07.740 answers to that. This is one reason why having 00:24:07.740 --> 00:24:13.559 a nice good lib, standard library, i .e. defaults 00:24:13.559 --> 00:24:16.980 and other batteries included stuff in NeoVim 00:24:16.980 --> 00:24:19.839 itself is useful, is because then you only have 00:24:19.839 --> 00:24:24.279 one entity that you have to trust. And I personally, 00:24:24.460 --> 00:24:29.539 I trust NeoVim because I'm watching it like a 00:24:29.539 --> 00:24:32.519 hawk. But this touches on a couple other things. 00:24:33.690 --> 00:24:37.250 We helped package maintainers with the ability 00:24:37.250 --> 00:24:41.049 to create reproducible builds. The Debian project 00:24:41.049 --> 00:24:43.930 had a campaign to make sure that all their builds 00:24:43.930 --> 00:24:49.109 were fully reproducible so that when you do a 00:24:49.109 --> 00:24:51.529 rebuild, it doesn't have a different signature 00:24:51.529 --> 00:24:54.769 on the binary, which is something that I think 00:24:54.769 --> 00:24:57.369 Vim still doesn't have because Vim always inserts 00:24:57.369 --> 00:25:02.069 a date into its binary. Every build is different. 00:25:03.670 --> 00:25:07.289 Although I think probably in WM they patched 00:25:07.289 --> 00:25:11.369 that to work around it, maybe. For plugins, there's 00:25:11.369 --> 00:25:15.529 a couple of mechanisms. One is a lock file. And 00:25:15.529 --> 00:25:19.369 so you can pin stuff to known good versions. 00:25:19.849 --> 00:25:24.230 But this is part of the reason why minimal plugins 00:25:24.230 --> 00:25:31.589 are a good thing, or at least desirable. Yeah, 00:25:31.630 --> 00:25:35.930 I do look at the source code for plugins to see 00:25:35.930 --> 00:25:39.390 what they're doing. And if they have 20 ,000 00:25:39.390 --> 00:25:43.849 lines of code and maybe even external dependencies, 00:25:44.029 --> 00:25:47.150 then I feel less comfortable using those kinds 00:25:47.150 --> 00:25:49.430 of plugins, especially in the scenario that you 00:25:49.430 --> 00:25:52.509 described. But another longer -term answer for 00:25:52.509 --> 00:25:57.589 this is that once we get around to integrating 00:25:57.589 --> 00:26:02.210 WebAssembly, in like a more meaningful way we've 00:26:02.210 --> 00:26:05.650 started we've started down that path we've done 00:26:05.650 --> 00:26:08.009 some initial work down that path but like we 00:26:08.009 --> 00:26:09.910 can go a lot deeper one of the things that will 00:26:09.910 --> 00:26:14.289 come out of that is web assembly has the concept 00:26:14.289 --> 00:26:20.069 of capabilities based security so you can it'll 00:26:20.069 --> 00:26:23.569 be like an android app where if you install an 00:26:23.569 --> 00:26:27.059 android app it asks you if you want to you have 00:26:27.059 --> 00:26:30.299 to give it explicit permission to read files 00:26:30.299 --> 00:26:34.420 off the file system or make network calls. So 00:26:34.420 --> 00:26:38.599 it would be super nice if when you're installing 00:26:38.599 --> 00:26:42.140 a NeoVim plugin, if you could just say, this 00:26:42.140 --> 00:26:44.740 thing cannot make network calls. That's pretty 00:26:44.740 --> 00:26:48.980 nice. Oh yeah, that makes sense. It's fine. If 00:26:48.980 --> 00:26:52.640 it reads your file system, it should be mostly 00:26:52.640 --> 00:26:56.039 harmless. if it can't make network calls and 00:26:56.039 --> 00:26:59.660 it can't invoke CLI commands, shell commands. 00:27:00.279 --> 00:27:04.160 Oh, pretty good idea. Yeah, yep. But doing that 00:27:04.160 --> 00:27:06.940 probably means we would be routing those things 00:27:06.940 --> 00:27:10.279 through our WebAssembly integration. We don't 00:27:10.279 --> 00:27:13.660 want to reinvent all that. Once we have that 00:27:13.660 --> 00:27:16.859 WebAssembly integration in place, then we can 00:27:16.859 --> 00:27:22.240 reuse that for maybe Lua plugins. Or maybe we 00:27:22.240 --> 00:27:26.759 just say, you need to ship your plugin wrapped 00:27:26.759 --> 00:27:30.940 in WebAssembly somehow. And we could help make 00:27:30.940 --> 00:27:33.720 that easier. You don't want NeoVim to show up 00:27:33.720 --> 00:27:36.359 in the news, in the hacker news. NeoVim hacked. 00:27:36.819 --> 00:27:40.420 NeoVim caused an AWS outage. How would you feel? 00:27:42.240 --> 00:27:45.900 Yeah, I don't know. NeoVim is full of security 00:27:45.900 --> 00:27:49.619 bugs. I can tell you that right now. This is 00:27:49.619 --> 00:27:54.289 not our focus. If you're running NeoVim, then 00:27:54.289 --> 00:27:57.829 you can run any shell command on that system. 00:27:57.950 --> 00:28:01.529 So I don't know how we would lock that down without 00:28:01.529 --> 00:28:06.670 this different plugin model. Yeah, you have to 00:28:06.670 --> 00:28:09.250 do it at your own risk and know what you're doing 00:28:09.250 --> 00:28:13.650 and basically trust the plugin creators, the 00:28:13.650 --> 00:28:17.230 plugins that you're going to install. And that's 00:28:17.230 --> 00:28:19.769 one of my other questions or other topics that 00:28:19.769 --> 00:28:22.029 I want to touch on as well. What are your thoughts 00:28:22.029 --> 00:28:24.250 on distributions? Like, just let me give you 00:28:24.250 --> 00:28:27.490 an example. LazyVim, right? I don't know about 00:28:27.490 --> 00:28:30.450 plugins, but I trust Folky. I don't know if he 00:28:30.450 --> 00:28:33.269 goes to each one of the repos and reads all of 00:28:33.269 --> 00:28:35.109 the source code for each one of the plugins, 00:28:35.250 --> 00:28:38.009 but he's experienced. He knows what he's doing 00:28:38.009 --> 00:28:41.849 way more than I know, right? So I have that CEO, 00:28:41.990 --> 00:28:44.710 that backup there that it's approved by him. 00:28:45.009 --> 00:28:47.769 Hopefully nothing bad's going to happen to me 00:28:47.769 --> 00:28:50.759 because, you know, he's behind that. What are 00:28:50.759 --> 00:28:54.400 your thoughts on distributions? Are you in favor? 00:28:54.579 --> 00:28:59.619 That's a good segue to that topic. Because that 00:28:59.619 --> 00:29:04.240 is actually an important role for distribution. 00:29:04.920 --> 00:29:09.400 Hopefully they are accepting that role. Probably 00:29:09.400 --> 00:29:11.339 don't want to assume it. They probably should 00:29:11.339 --> 00:29:14.319 say explicitly, we take a close look at these 00:29:14.319 --> 00:29:18.799 plugins before we upstream them into our tree. 00:29:19.450 --> 00:29:21.890 And if they do do that, then that's actually 00:29:21.890 --> 00:29:26.569 a great use case for those distributions. Because 00:29:26.569 --> 00:29:28.829 in a sense, they're kind of acting like a package 00:29:28.829 --> 00:29:34.150 lock file. They're acting like a maintained lock 00:29:34.150 --> 00:29:43.490 file. But regarding distros, other aspects of 00:29:43.490 --> 00:29:47.730 distros... Be honest. No one's watching. You 00:29:47.730 --> 00:29:50.759 can say whatever you want. You hate them, right? 00:29:51.660 --> 00:29:56.359 No, I'm fine with them. I think something that 00:29:56.359 --> 00:30:00.240 I've tried to express every now and then is that 00:30:00.240 --> 00:30:04.880 every human is at a different stage of their 00:30:04.880 --> 00:30:11.299 journey. It's not the greatest word, but they're 00:30:11.299 --> 00:30:15.099 at a different stage of whatever the context 00:30:15.099 --> 00:30:20.240 is that they're currently focusing on. There's 00:30:20.240 --> 00:30:24.220 tons of people where their context is not focused 00:30:24.220 --> 00:30:27.259 on their text editor. They just need a tool. 00:30:27.920 --> 00:30:32.319 And we've done a lot of work and are going to 00:30:32.319 --> 00:30:35.380 do a lot more work next year to make NeoVim a 00:30:35.380 --> 00:30:39.240 really useful and cozy -feeling tool out of the 00:30:39.240 --> 00:30:44.529 box so that you don't have to make a... choice 00:30:44.529 --> 00:30:46.789 about whether you want to invest in it right 00:30:46.789 --> 00:30:50.670 now or whether you'll visit it next year. And 00:30:50.670 --> 00:30:55.250 if you don't kind of refine it so that it gets 00:30:55.250 --> 00:30:58.569 out of your way by default, then people are stuck 00:30:58.569 --> 00:31:03.509 with that choice. And it means you're just less 00:31:03.509 --> 00:31:09.819 useful. It's an aspect of being useful. If you 00:31:09.819 --> 00:31:12.420 want to be more useful, then you should also 00:31:12.420 --> 00:31:15.779 think about this use case where people are not 00:31:15.779 --> 00:31:18.440 investing a huge amount of their intention right 00:31:18.440 --> 00:31:26.460 now into you. And distros are a way of launching 00:31:26.460 --> 00:31:32.779 something that gets them to a useful state so 00:31:32.779 --> 00:31:36.980 that they can then go do something else. circle 00:31:36.980 --> 00:31:45.640 back, corporate jargon, if they have an epicycle 00:31:45.640 --> 00:31:50.259 where they're able to revisit, now they want 00:31:50.259 --> 00:31:52.819 to put their attention on the text editor, then 00:31:52.819 --> 00:31:56.839 they can make a choice to cut out the parts that 00:31:56.839 --> 00:32:01.339 they don't need of the distro or start tweaking 00:32:01.339 --> 00:32:08.160 stuff or fiddling with stuff and uh trying to 00:32:08.160 --> 00:32:10.859 learn more about it and like refine it because 00:32:10.859 --> 00:32:15.200 maybe they they maxed out on like whatever the 00:32:15.200 --> 00:32:17.740 default experience is for the distro that they're 00:32:17.740 --> 00:32:21.400 using um and this happens like in so many contexts 00:32:21.400 --> 00:32:25.740 like there's people using oh my z shell that's 00:32:25.740 --> 00:32:27.420 probably not popular anymore whatever the replacement 00:32:27.420 --> 00:32:31.359 is for oh my z shell those people are really 00:32:31.359 --> 00:32:34.880 into shells i am not I don't care about my shell 00:32:34.880 --> 00:32:37.440 at all. I just use the default bash. I have a 00:32:37.440 --> 00:32:41.700 couple tweaks in my bash rc, and I want it out 00:32:41.700 --> 00:32:44.799 of my way. I don't give a damn about shells at 00:32:44.799 --> 00:32:49.180 all. Shells are... I actually want to use neovim 00:32:49.180 --> 00:32:53.640 as my shell. You just use your shell to cd into 00:32:53.640 --> 00:32:55.900 the directory and open neovim and work inside 00:32:55.900 --> 00:32:59.960 there, right? Well, I mean, I use shell a lot, 00:33:00.079 --> 00:33:03.680 but... I'm not trying to bling out my shell so 00:33:03.680 --> 00:33:10.680 that it has all these colors. Exactly. I'm not... 00:33:10.680 --> 00:33:17.480 I have not... I haven't focused on shells. I 00:33:17.480 --> 00:33:20.319 just don't want to spend time on that. Something 00:33:20.319 --> 00:33:24.859 that works well and gets out of my way is what 00:33:24.859 --> 00:33:30.849 I'm looking for there. Yeah, and so if you're 00:33:30.849 --> 00:33:35.069 starting out with NeoVim, there should be a way 00:33:35.069 --> 00:33:38.630 that you can just see what it can do with one 00:33:38.630 --> 00:33:41.829 click or one command, and distros are serving 00:33:41.829 --> 00:33:45.009 that purpose. It doesn't mean that you need to 00:33:45.009 --> 00:33:49.069 stick with it forever, but it's giving a whole 00:33:49.069 --> 00:33:53.109 subset, probably a big subset of people, just 00:33:53.109 --> 00:33:57.329 a picture of what's possible. It's a live demo. 00:33:57.819 --> 00:34:01.160 basically like distros are live demos of what 00:34:01.160 --> 00:34:03.920 this thing can do would you recommend a distro 00:34:03.920 --> 00:34:05.819 to start with or would you recommend something 00:34:05.819 --> 00:34:10.260 like kickstart or you build it from scratch you 00:34:10.260 --> 00:34:12.920 know yourself i guess it depends on the context 00:34:12.920 --> 00:34:15.400 of that specific person like you just said but 00:34:15.400 --> 00:34:18.300 if someone comes to you and says hey i want to 00:34:18.300 --> 00:34:20.300 try any of them what would be your first answer 00:34:20.800 --> 00:34:22.619 kickstart has gone off the rails i don't know 00:34:22.619 --> 00:34:25.659 what kickstart is doing now these days it was 00:34:25.659 --> 00:34:28.079 supposed to be like a minimal thing that like 00:34:28.079 --> 00:34:31.260 is commented and shows you how to do things and 00:34:31.260 --> 00:34:35.340 now it's like a distro installing the universe 00:34:35.340 --> 00:34:41.039 and just doing all this stuff that oh is i don't 00:34:41.039 --> 00:34:44.519 know what it's doing but like so so in neovim 00:34:44.519 --> 00:34:47.989 we are starting to build out some minimal form 00:34:47.989 --> 00:34:50.809 of that where it's kind of like what i thought 00:34:50.809 --> 00:34:53.690 kickstart was supposed to be where it's just 00:34:53.690 --> 00:34:56.510 like it's a starter something to get started 00:34:56.510 --> 00:35:00.010 yeah yeah and using just core utilities or at 00:35:00.010 --> 00:35:01.829 least if you're gonna integrate some plugins 00:35:01.829 --> 00:35:04.949 stuff that you trust or you're gonna bring those 00:35:04.949 --> 00:35:08.269 to core yeah yeah like it'll install all of my 00:35:08.269 --> 00:35:13.949 plugins no yeah it'll install plugins because 00:35:13.949 --> 00:35:17.969 we have a plugin manager now That is a huge unlock 00:35:17.969 --> 00:35:21.929 because it takes so much pressure off of us to 00:35:21.929 --> 00:35:25.809 make hard decisions about what we want to ship 00:35:25.809 --> 00:35:29.849 in the build versus what we should outsource 00:35:29.849 --> 00:35:35.210 to, you know, either Nioven -owned repos or third 00:35:35.210 --> 00:35:39.730 -party repos. Like, that's a big, it's very high, 00:35:39.889 --> 00:35:43.829 very, very useful to have. And so now we have 00:35:43.829 --> 00:35:47.710 that. And yeah, we will have some section in 00:35:47.710 --> 00:35:50.269 there that shows. Because the two most common 00:35:50.269 --> 00:35:54.269 things that people need are a fuzzy picker. Yep. 00:35:54.469 --> 00:35:57.650 Like someday maybe we'll have some built -in 00:35:57.650 --> 00:36:00.429 version of that. But until then, just saying 00:36:00.429 --> 00:36:02.869 to get a fuzzy picker, you just have this one 00:36:02.869 --> 00:36:05.889 line. That is very powerful and comfortable for 00:36:05.889 --> 00:36:09.869 everybody. And it takes pressure off of us to 00:36:09.869 --> 00:36:14.110 rush something into core meanwhile. Because now 00:36:14.110 --> 00:36:17.389 the core answer is just one line. Just do this 00:36:17.389 --> 00:36:20.230 one line. So this will help you guys to keep 00:36:20.230 --> 00:36:23.409 core really minimal and modularize everything 00:36:23.409 --> 00:36:26.690 else, right? If you want to add it, you add it 00:36:26.690 --> 00:36:29.590 through the plugin manager that NeoVim now has. 00:36:29.789 --> 00:36:33.329 Is that correct? It gives us that option. We 00:36:33.329 --> 00:36:38.269 won't always choose that option because we want 00:36:38.269 --> 00:36:46.099 the core to be... Not minimal, but it should 00:36:46.099 --> 00:36:50.119 be absorbing known things. Once something becomes 00:36:50.119 --> 00:36:53.079 a solved problem, like the interface and the 00:36:53.079 --> 00:36:56.659 experience and the API has kind of been figured 00:36:56.659 --> 00:37:02.900 out, that is either because we spent time sussing 00:37:02.900 --> 00:37:06.739 all of that out in core or else because the community 00:37:06.739 --> 00:37:09.920 figured it out and made it really obvious. or 00:37:09.920 --> 00:37:12.320 a combination of those things, once that happens 00:37:12.320 --> 00:37:16.679 and we're ready to spend time on it, then it 00:37:16.679 --> 00:37:21.320 makes sense for things to go into the core standard 00:37:21.320 --> 00:37:26.659 library. But for some things, maybe it never 00:37:26.659 --> 00:37:30.440 makes sense to do that because they're not essential 00:37:30.440 --> 00:37:35.900 or they're not composable. That's a key axis 00:37:35.900 --> 00:37:40.840 to think about. You want things that you add 00:37:40.840 --> 00:37:44.840 to core, you want them to be shaped in a way 00:37:44.840 --> 00:37:47.440 that can be combined with other things. Because 00:37:47.440 --> 00:37:50.300 otherwise, if you don't do it that way, then 00:37:50.300 --> 00:37:54.639 all you've done is bloat. I would say that if 00:37:54.639 --> 00:37:57.099 you're just adding stuff that can't be extended, 00:37:57.159 --> 00:37:59.179 then yeah, it's bloat. That's probably a good 00:37:59.179 --> 00:38:00.840 definition of bloat, actually. A lot of times 00:38:00.840 --> 00:38:04.420 people think bloat is just like... anything that's 00:38:04.420 --> 00:38:07.800 a non -zero like diff but actually i would say 00:38:07.800 --> 00:38:11.300 it's bloat if it's like a dead end right if if 00:38:11.300 --> 00:38:13.960 you add it but then it can't be extended or it 00:38:13.960 --> 00:38:17.119 can't be reused by third parties then yeah that's 00:38:17.119 --> 00:38:20.699 bloat bloat yeah yeah there's something that 00:38:20.699 --> 00:38:23.539 i want to ask about bloat as well i just got 00:38:23.539 --> 00:38:25.920 a super chat thank you very much for whoever 00:38:25.920 --> 00:38:28.480 sent that i'm gonna read it in a little while 00:38:28.480 --> 00:38:30.599 just and i think there's a question there but 00:38:30.599 --> 00:38:32.820 there's something that i want to mention now 00:38:32.820 --> 00:38:36.480 that you said bloat like i like extending neovim 00:38:36.480 --> 00:38:39.659 a lot you know so i like viewing images in neovim 00:38:39.659 --> 00:38:42.980 like pasting images when i paste them it pastes 00:38:42.980 --> 00:38:46.079 it converts them automatically to avif format 00:38:46.079 --> 00:38:49.039 you know because it's useful for me in my blog 00:38:49.039 --> 00:38:51.860 post and i don't take notes with images but in 00:38:51.860 --> 00:38:54.480 the blog post sometimes an image is easier to 00:38:54.480 --> 00:38:57.880 describe thousand words right so i get a lot 00:38:57.880 --> 00:39:01.860 that my config is bloat is bloated because i'm 00:39:01.860 --> 00:39:04.579 extending neo vim too much that it's just becoming 00:39:04.579 --> 00:39:08.840 like emacs and neo vim should be neo vim or closer 00:39:08.840 --> 00:39:12.099 to vim you know there's you know these two opposite 00:39:12.099 --> 00:39:15.099 sides you know extending it a lot or keeping 00:39:15.099 --> 00:39:17.719 it minimal what are your thoughts on that on 00:39:17.719 --> 00:39:20.420 extending neo vim i think this is a very easy 00:39:20.420 --> 00:39:24.510 question to answer um a lot of people Martin 00:39:24.510 --> 00:39:28.710 Fowler has a bunch of categories for types of 00:39:28.710 --> 00:39:32.610 tests, like integration tests, unit tests, functional 00:39:32.610 --> 00:39:36.670 tests, behavioral tests. Something crazy is happening 00:39:36.670 --> 00:39:40.849 in New York. Anyways, but the only actually useful 00:39:40.849 --> 00:39:45.070 delineation for tests, if you really stop and 00:39:45.070 --> 00:39:47.030 think about it, is whether they're fast or slow. 00:39:47.309 --> 00:39:52.230 Nothing else matters. If an integration test 00:39:52.230 --> 00:39:56.489 takes one... Yeah, like the Metallica song, Nothing 00:39:56.489 --> 00:40:03.449 Else Matters. Oh, yeah. Yes. If an integration 00:40:03.449 --> 00:40:08.429 test takes one millisecond, then that's a test 00:40:08.429 --> 00:40:11.849 you should always be running. If it's slow, then 00:40:11.849 --> 00:40:14.769 you've got a decision that you need to make. 00:40:17.380 --> 00:40:19.699 It's kind of the same thing with your config. 00:40:19.980 --> 00:40:22.639 If stuff is super fast, then it doesn't really 00:40:22.639 --> 00:40:24.559 matter how much stuff is in there. If it starts 00:40:24.559 --> 00:40:26.860 to get slow, then that's a signal that it might 00:40:26.860 --> 00:40:31.639 be bloated. This is also why I say the definition 00:40:31.639 --> 00:40:36.340 of a text editor is anything that can... The 00:40:36.340 --> 00:40:39.780 definition of a text editor... You might have 00:40:39.780 --> 00:40:43.539 a text editor if it can be built from source 00:40:43.539 --> 00:40:50.010 in less than five minutes. From nothing to everything 00:40:50.010 --> 00:40:53.090 in five minutes. If it takes more than five minutes, 00:40:53.170 --> 00:40:54.789 you don't have a text editor. You might have 00:40:54.789 --> 00:40:58.630 an IDE. If it takes longer than five minutes 00:40:58.630 --> 00:41:01.630 to build, you might have an IDE. And you personally, 00:41:01.889 --> 00:41:04.150 what are you in favor? Are you in favor of minimal 00:41:04.150 --> 00:41:06.909 NeoVim or extending it to your needs? Like if 00:41:06.909 --> 00:41:09.269 you want to view images in NeoVim, you do it? 00:41:09.309 --> 00:41:11.449 Or you're like, no, no, no. My NeoVim is not 00:41:11.449 --> 00:41:13.650 for that. I'm going to use another tool for my 00:41:13.650 --> 00:41:15.670 images. I'm going to keep my NeoVim minimal. 00:41:16.059 --> 00:41:18.539 What are your thoughts personally? Well, showing 00:41:18.539 --> 00:41:22.440 an image, I mean, this is similar to embedded 00:41:22.440 --> 00:41:24.980 terminals. When we added an embedded terminal 00:41:24.980 --> 00:41:27.739 that was called bloat, but now I think it's pretty 00:41:27.739 --> 00:41:31.139 obvious that this is a basic feature that any 00:41:31.139 --> 00:41:34.719 text editor or IDE should have because terminals 00:41:34.719 --> 00:41:37.840 are pretty tiny relative to everything else that's 00:41:37.840 --> 00:41:42.599 going on in software these days. I mean, if you 00:41:42.599 --> 00:41:46.219 knew how much bloat was just in a single, cloud 00:41:46.219 --> 00:41:49.900 requests, how many hops it's taking, how many 00:41:49.900 --> 00:41:53.480 protocol wrappers there are around a request 00:41:53.480 --> 00:41:58.139 going into the cloud, you probably wouldn't be 00:41:58.139 --> 00:42:02.019 concerned about showing images or embedding a 00:42:02.019 --> 00:42:06.159 terminal. Showing images is also kind of like 00:42:06.159 --> 00:42:08.239 a solved problem, and this is something that 00:42:08.239 --> 00:42:13.500 should be possible to do. Now, if we start taking 00:42:13.500 --> 00:42:15.900 dependencies, like build time dependencies on 00:42:15.900 --> 00:42:22.079 a bunch of image libraries, and that constricts 00:42:22.079 --> 00:42:26.980 the number of platform targets that we can ship 00:42:26.980 --> 00:42:31.159 to and run in, then that's questionable. But 00:42:31.159 --> 00:42:34.500 if we can do it in a way where it's pretty lightweight, 00:42:34.639 --> 00:42:36.699 we're mostly just providing an interface and 00:42:36.699 --> 00:42:40.659 using either operating system features or terminal, 00:42:41.239 --> 00:42:43.539 host terminal features, then there's no reason 00:42:43.539 --> 00:42:45.679 we shouldn't do that because this is actually 00:42:45.679 --> 00:42:48.019 kind of painful not to be able to see images 00:42:48.019 --> 00:42:50.440 in a Markdown file. Markdown files would be much 00:42:50.440 --> 00:42:54.579 more useful if you could inline images in there. 00:42:54.860 --> 00:42:57.860 And we're going to do that for help files too, 00:42:57.920 --> 00:43:03.139 where you can just somehow show an image. Although, 00:43:03.199 --> 00:43:05.159 I don't know, people might not be excited about 00:43:05.159 --> 00:43:08.519 that. Half of the core team wants to move to 00:43:08.519 --> 00:43:14.659 Markdown instead of the help files. I think we 00:43:14.659 --> 00:43:17.260 can support both. I mean, they're both basically 00:43:17.260 --> 00:43:19.940 just like variants of each other. Like help files 00:43:19.940 --> 00:43:23.119 are, it's kind of just Markdown, really. It's 00:43:23.119 --> 00:43:25.360 just a different flavor of Markdown. That looks 00:43:25.360 --> 00:43:29.019 horrible, right? No, I'm used to Markdown. So 00:43:29.019 --> 00:43:32.039 yeah, navigating. It looks good now. Help files 00:43:32.039 --> 00:43:35.599 should look good. Yeah, it looks decent. I have 00:43:35.599 --> 00:43:37.690 a... Question here. I'm just going to switch 00:43:37.690 --> 00:43:39.909 to my screen real quick and I'm just going to 00:43:39.909 --> 00:43:43.769 read this. Hold on. Patricio Serrano. Can the 00:43:43.769 --> 00:43:46.530 NeoVim built -in terminal slow down the editor? 00:43:46.750 --> 00:43:50.210 For example, if I run a heavy task, will it affect 00:43:50.210 --> 00:43:53.610 my editing experience? Any thoughts on how to 00:43:53.610 --> 00:43:56.690 prevent this? Maybe using NeoVim's server client 00:43:56.690 --> 00:44:01.329 feature? Well, the embedded terminal is slower 00:44:01.329 --> 00:44:03.969 than it should be. So that's the short answer. 00:44:04.960 --> 00:44:08.619 It's not synchronous. There's parts of it that 00:44:08.619 --> 00:44:14.460 are asynchronous. One of the things that I think 00:44:14.460 --> 00:44:17.619 probably does slow it down is if it exceeds the 00:44:17.619 --> 00:44:21.980 scroll back and it has to start deleting lines. 00:44:22.320 --> 00:44:25.460 I think the logic for that is kind of stupid 00:44:25.460 --> 00:44:28.500 right now. I think the way that it shifts the 00:44:28.500 --> 00:44:31.039 scroll back array is probably super inefficient. 00:44:31.929 --> 00:44:35.530 But if it's slow and you're not hitting that 00:44:35.530 --> 00:44:39.750 scroll back limit, then that's the other slow 00:44:39.750 --> 00:44:44.809 parts that I don't really remember the details, 00:44:45.070 --> 00:44:49.530 but it probably has to do with highlights, the 00:44:49.530 --> 00:44:52.610 way we're doing highlights, and maybe some of 00:44:52.610 --> 00:44:55.829 the buffer options. So we have to think about, 00:44:56.130 --> 00:44:59.369 we want terminals to be real buffers, but there's 00:44:59.369 --> 00:45:02.070 some things in real buffers that, make things 00:45:02.070 --> 00:45:05.650 really stupidly slow. And I don't think we support 00:45:05.650 --> 00:45:08.550 folds yet, but we could. But then when we do, 00:45:08.710 --> 00:45:10.510 that's going to make them even slower if you 00:45:10.510 --> 00:45:13.590 have folds enabled in terminals. And the wrap 00:45:13.590 --> 00:45:17.949 logic, wrap is always a pain in the ass. And 00:45:17.949 --> 00:45:23.050 we have some half -working wrap logic, and once 00:45:23.050 --> 00:45:27.329 we get that fully working, that'll be after we 00:45:27.329 --> 00:45:31.889 integrate lib ghosty. from the ghosty terminal 00:45:31.889 --> 00:45:35.349 they are exposing their their terminal logic 00:45:35.349 --> 00:45:40.329 as a library and so we can we can replace our 00:45:40.329 --> 00:45:42.489 current thing with that and hopefully that's 00:45:42.489 --> 00:45:48.130 faster but we'll see um but try setting scroll 00:45:48.130 --> 00:45:50.909 back to like the maximum number and see if that 00:45:50.909 --> 00:45:52.590 makes it faster what was the other part of the 00:45:52.590 --> 00:45:55.210 question let's see if i switch here to my screen 00:45:55.210 --> 00:45:59.019 it says uh by run a heavy task will it affect 00:45:59.019 --> 00:46:01.460 my alien experience any thoughts on how to prevent 00:46:01.460 --> 00:46:05.659 this maybe using new vim server client feature 00:46:05.659 --> 00:46:11.380 okay okay this is interesting um because the 00:46:11.380 --> 00:46:17.199 answer the the perpetual answer to like any client 00:46:17.199 --> 00:46:23.059 server situation is that neovim should have p2p 00:46:23.059 --> 00:46:25.019 functionality like peer -to -peer functionality 00:46:25.019 --> 00:46:28.309 this should be Like, NeoVim should be able to 00:46:28.309 --> 00:46:32.190 create swarms of itself on your machine whenever 00:46:32.190 --> 00:46:35.489 it needs to so that it can do expensive tasks 00:46:35.489 --> 00:46:40.570 in a child process of NeoVim and then throw away 00:46:40.570 --> 00:46:43.570 that child NeoVim and then get the result and 00:46:43.570 --> 00:46:46.349 then use that in the parent. Right now, this 00:46:46.349 --> 00:46:48.269 is just too cumbersome. Like, of course, it's 00:46:48.269 --> 00:46:51.550 possible to do, but, like, getting results from 00:46:51.550 --> 00:46:56.199 various features in the... child NeoVim is just 00:46:56.199 --> 00:46:59.960 not as good as it should be. So if you wanted 00:46:59.960 --> 00:47:03.699 to do this in a bespoke way today, if you had 00:47:03.699 --> 00:47:06.340 some expensive terminal thing, you could spin 00:47:06.340 --> 00:47:09.079 up the terminal in the child NeoVim, and then 00:47:09.079 --> 00:47:12.260 you would get the output and put it into your 00:47:12.260 --> 00:47:15.340 parent NeoVim. You could show it as a regular 00:47:15.340 --> 00:47:19.380 buffer, but then now you have to create some 00:47:19.380 --> 00:47:22.809 plugin that kind of makes that buffer behave 00:47:22.809 --> 00:47:25.530 in useful ways i guess like if you're like because 00:47:25.530 --> 00:47:27.610 you're not going to get the full terminal buffer 00:47:27.610 --> 00:47:32.050 experience in that bespoke buffer but that's 00:47:32.050 --> 00:47:36.889 the kind of thing you could do um yeah okay okay 00:47:36.889 --> 00:47:40.829 appreciate that and um i also wanted to ask you 00:47:40.829 --> 00:47:44.489 about um defaults in eofm you know moving on 00:47:44.489 --> 00:47:46.989 to a different topic defaults in eofm right because 00:47:46.989 --> 00:47:51.059 um when you go into a server you usually have 00:47:51.059 --> 00:47:53.460 Vim installed. You don't have any plugins. You 00:47:53.460 --> 00:47:57.360 don't have your KJ to go to normal mode. You 00:47:57.360 --> 00:47:59.719 know, you have to use escape or control open 00:47:59.719 --> 00:48:01.260 square bracket. I don't remember which one it 00:48:01.260 --> 00:48:04.659 is, right? So you just have to use vanilla Vim 00:48:04.659 --> 00:48:07.679 there. How often do you do that? You know, I 00:48:07.679 --> 00:48:09.539 don't do it often. It depends on each person, 00:48:09.619 --> 00:48:11.579 right? But what are your thoughts on moving away 00:48:11.579 --> 00:48:15.539 from... defaults, right? Like, for example, let 00:48:15.539 --> 00:48:17.920 me give an example. Flash .envim is a plugin 00:48:17.920 --> 00:48:21.619 that I use sometimes to jump to a specific section 00:48:21.619 --> 00:48:24.480 of the file, find it useful at times, right? 00:48:24.619 --> 00:48:27.699 Or custom key maps that I use that are not going 00:48:27.699 --> 00:48:30.460 to be available in a server. Are you in favor 00:48:30.460 --> 00:48:33.280 of navigating or moving away from defaults or 00:48:33.280 --> 00:48:37.880 use stock configs only? Well, I wrote sneak, 00:48:38.059 --> 00:48:43.099 so I definitely use some non -default features 00:48:43.099 --> 00:48:47.679 for navigating but unlike flash it does not move 00:48:47.679 --> 00:48:51.880 across windows um is it similar to flash then 00:48:51.880 --> 00:48:55.539 that sneak yeah i think i think flash probably 00:48:55.539 --> 00:49:00.059 credits sneak as an inspiration i think oh okay 00:49:00.059 --> 00:49:03.900 me okay okay yeah although you know i didn't 00:49:03.900 --> 00:49:05.960 invent the idea there was something called easy 00:49:05.960 --> 00:49:09.809 motion a long time ago that Neek was just a better 00:49:09.809 --> 00:49:13.829 version of Easy Motion. So, I mean, I guess the 00:49:13.829 --> 00:49:16.309 question is, like, you're asking about personal 00:49:16.309 --> 00:49:21.710 choice. For me, there's, like, a few things that 00:49:21.710 --> 00:49:25.429 I do non -default, and I have no problem, like, 00:49:25.489 --> 00:49:29.429 when I'm roughing it, you know, on a bare -bones 00:49:29.429 --> 00:49:33.269 server, and I only have Vim or NeoVim, then without 00:49:33.269 --> 00:49:37.820 my config, then it's still... It's usually pretty 00:49:37.820 --> 00:49:42.739 fine to get around. There's some things that 00:49:42.739 --> 00:49:45.619 we should be adding to the defaults to make that 00:49:45.619 --> 00:49:48.699 less of a problem. But of course, that only applies 00:49:48.699 --> 00:49:53.800 if you agree with the defaults. But I think that 00:49:53.800 --> 00:49:57.320 the answer to your question is maybe contradictory 00:49:57.320 --> 00:50:02.780 because I try not to change the defaults unless 00:50:02.780 --> 00:50:05.239 they're terrible. And if they're terrible, then 00:50:05.239 --> 00:50:08.300 I will change them in the oven. But then this 00:50:08.300 --> 00:50:12.739 is kind of like, you know, not everyone can do 00:50:12.739 --> 00:50:16.500 that. But I think the default that we're driving 00:50:16.500 --> 00:50:18.519 towards, everyone should be using because they're 00:50:18.519 --> 00:50:23.679 great. How do you get to normal mode? I use control 00:50:23.679 --> 00:50:28.340 left bracket. Oh, really? That's the goaded way. 00:50:28.699 --> 00:50:31.969 Why? Why, Justin? Can you explain why? Once you 00:50:31.969 --> 00:50:36.550 get used to it, you won't go back. I tried JK. 00:50:36.730 --> 00:50:39.809 JK is terrible. No, KJ. The other way around. 00:50:39.889 --> 00:50:42.110 Because this finger is faster. You do both. You 00:50:42.110 --> 00:50:44.230 do both. Bam. Just like this. You can map them 00:50:44.230 --> 00:50:47.789 both. Yeah, but I don't know. You smash them 00:50:47.789 --> 00:50:50.989 both. But once you get used to the control bracket, 00:50:51.170 --> 00:50:53.960 it's actually way better. I tried it. I tried 00:50:53.960 --> 00:50:57.219 escape at the beginning, but because it was too 00:50:57.219 --> 00:50:59.739 way up here, I didn't modify the keyboard, my 00:50:59.739 --> 00:51:01.739 keyboard at that time, right? I used the default 00:51:01.739 --> 00:51:04.179 keyboard, but escape was all the way there, all 00:51:04.179 --> 00:51:06.760 the way up there. So I said, no, no, no. Let 00:51:06.760 --> 00:51:09.900 me try the control, close square bracket. That's 00:51:09.900 --> 00:51:12.099 the one, right? So, and I tried it for, no, I 00:51:12.099 --> 00:51:14.159 didn't get used to it. It was like, no, no, no, 00:51:14.219 --> 00:51:17.019 no, no, no, no. I just moved to KJ. I didn't 00:51:17.019 --> 00:51:21.320 look back ever since. Okay. I don't know. Maybe 00:51:21.320 --> 00:51:23.039 that should be a default. That would be hilarious. 00:51:23.400 --> 00:51:28.179 We could do that on April Fool's. No one is ever 00:51:28.179 --> 00:51:31.360 amused by our April Fool's stuff. Where do you 00:51:31.360 --> 00:51:35.199 post those? Do you post them in Reddit or a video 00:51:35.199 --> 00:51:37.420 or something? No, I think maybe that's why. It's 00:51:37.420 --> 00:51:38.840 because it's only people looking at the issue 00:51:38.840 --> 00:51:43.239 tracker. Those are serious people. That's why 00:51:43.239 --> 00:51:46.219 they're not amused. Yeah, you should create a 00:51:46.219 --> 00:51:48.380 video or something about it. It would be hilarious. 00:51:49.159 --> 00:51:52.300 Imagine, oh man, Reddit would go crazy. How's 00:51:52.300 --> 00:51:55.619 your relationship with Reddit, by the way? Because 00:51:55.619 --> 00:51:58.320 sometimes I post in Reddit and there's a lot 00:51:58.320 --> 00:52:02.159 of people there that's like angry. And I don't 00:52:02.159 --> 00:52:04.860 know, they just like to attack you for no reason. 00:52:05.360 --> 00:52:07.679 How's your relationship with Reddit? Is it healthy? 00:52:07.739 --> 00:52:09.760 Well, of course, you're the new event maintainer. 00:52:09.780 --> 00:52:12.500 You're there, right? So what? problems are you 00:52:12.500 --> 00:52:14.619 going to have there with Reddit? But overall, 00:52:14.800 --> 00:52:18.639 any thoughts on the NeoVim subreddit community? 00:52:19.239 --> 00:52:22.280 It could be way worse. I think it's fine. I don't 00:52:22.280 --> 00:52:25.519 see too many angry people there. I've gotten 00:52:25.519 --> 00:52:29.559 pretty used to... If someone's complaining about 00:52:29.559 --> 00:52:33.400 a technical decision, I'm totally fine with that. 00:52:33.780 --> 00:52:37.820 And I usually just... I mean, I get it. I understand. 00:52:38.039 --> 00:52:40.860 I don't have any problem with people complaining 00:52:40.860 --> 00:52:46.329 about technical decisions or yeah because nothing 00:52:46.329 --> 00:52:49.849 is ever perfect and and i complain a lot myself 00:52:49.849 --> 00:52:54.630 so yeah yeah it's usually it's more like the 00:52:54.630 --> 00:52:56.989 the things that bother me are the in the early 00:52:56.989 --> 00:53:00.210 days were more like just personal attacks and 00:53:00.210 --> 00:53:03.110 stuff like that but if it's not personal i i 00:53:03.110 --> 00:53:07.829 don't mind it at all okay Okay. Now, would you 00:53:07.829 --> 00:53:10.110 mind sharing a little bit about the Neovim's 00:53:10.110 --> 00:53:12.489 history? We're going back in time right now. 00:53:12.610 --> 00:53:15.730 Were you the one that started Neovim? I heard, 00:53:15.889 --> 00:53:18.289 I don't know, Greg, I don't remember. Oh no, 00:53:18.429 --> 00:53:20.550 the Rio Terminal creator is the one that told 00:53:20.550 --> 00:53:23.329 me that it was some Brazil guys. Are they still 00:53:23.329 --> 00:53:26.230 around? Were they the ones that started it? Did 00:53:26.230 --> 00:53:28.489 you take over? Do you mind sharing a little bit 00:53:28.489 --> 00:53:32.070 about that? Well, Thiago de Arruda was the guy 00:53:32.070 --> 00:53:37.329 who... did the initial fork and did a kickstarter 00:53:37.329 --> 00:53:42.449 and uh did like six months of uh work to get 00:53:42.449 --> 00:53:45.650 all the kind of like flagship features like um 00:53:45.650 --> 00:53:50.730 async jobs and the embedded terminal were the 00:53:50.730 --> 00:53:53.650 main things and he also did remote plugins which 00:53:53.650 --> 00:53:57.840 has had less success but uh I consider myself, 00:53:57.980 --> 00:53:59.820 I think it's fair to call me the co -founder 00:53:59.820 --> 00:54:03.659 of NeoVim, even though I didn't have a big technical 00:54:03.659 --> 00:54:07.239 role in the first couple months of the project. 00:54:08.360 --> 00:54:14.780 I was kind of like an angel on his shoulder before 00:54:14.780 --> 00:54:17.880 he forked it, and I was talking to him on Reddit. 00:54:18.119 --> 00:54:22.610 Speaking of Reddit... We had discussions on Reddit, 00:54:22.809 --> 00:54:26.530 and so it kind of led to that. And I was excited 00:54:26.530 --> 00:54:30.889 about the project and was involved from the beginning. 00:54:31.150 --> 00:54:37.750 And he asked me to take over within not too long, 00:54:37.809 --> 00:54:42.510 seeing all the work of the project management 00:54:42.510 --> 00:54:45.929 and stuff. And yeah, he's from Brazil. I'm from 00:54:45.929 --> 00:54:50.849 Florida. I think tropical... climate seem to 00:54:50.849 --> 00:54:55.429 be where the innovation is coming from these 00:54:55.429 --> 00:54:59.530 days. What are your thoughts on cold weather? 00:54:59.630 --> 00:55:03.969 Do you like it? I don't mind it. I deal with 00:55:03.969 --> 00:55:08.510 it. I try not to be limited by... I adapt. I'm 00:55:08.510 --> 00:55:12.250 in New York City, one of the most unpleasant 00:55:12.250 --> 00:55:14.590 cities in the world, but I'm dealing with it. 00:55:16.510 --> 00:55:21.639 I adapt. Okay, okay, okay. There's a reason they 00:55:21.639 --> 00:55:23.940 call New York City the city that never sleeps. 00:55:24.239 --> 00:55:27.000 I just figured this out this week. It's because 00:55:27.000 --> 00:55:30.159 it prevents you from sleeping. What, too much 00:55:30.159 --> 00:55:33.940 noise? Too much noise, too much people screaming 00:55:33.940 --> 00:55:38.519 and just doing weird things in the hallway and 00:55:38.519 --> 00:55:43.000 running their TV and sirens. Do you hear the 00:55:43.000 --> 00:55:45.440 train? Do you hear the train as well from where 00:55:45.440 --> 00:55:48.789 you're at? No, no, I don't hear the train. No, 00:55:48.869 --> 00:55:52.650 fortunately you don't. Just sirens and screaming. 00:55:53.010 --> 00:55:56.769 Okay, I can imagine. Any gunshots there? No. 00:55:57.150 --> 00:56:01.070 No, fortunately no. No gunshots. Just in Florida? 00:56:01.409 --> 00:56:06.989 Yeah, maybe. Are there alligators in Florida? 00:56:07.429 --> 00:56:10.030 Oh, yeah. Yeah? Are you used to them? Go golfing. 00:56:10.070 --> 00:56:12.420 If you go golfing, you'll see alligators. Are 00:56:12.420 --> 00:56:14.840 you scared of them? People are like, what is 00:56:14.840 --> 00:56:16.739 this conversation about? Are we talking about 00:56:16.739 --> 00:56:19.539 Niobe or what? What's going on here? Are you 00:56:19.539 --> 00:56:22.079 afraid? We're getting into the spicy segment 00:56:22.079 --> 00:56:25.239 of the show. Yeah, I don't know. We're just rolling. 00:56:25.539 --> 00:56:28.780 I have a healthy respect for gators. I don't 00:56:28.780 --> 00:56:33.340 try to pet them or give them marshmallows. Okay, 00:56:33.579 --> 00:56:37.960 okay. Now, going back to Niobe, how's the burden? 00:56:38.099 --> 00:56:42.559 Because you have a... work at amazon i guess 00:56:42.559 --> 00:56:46.920 aws related stuff is that right okay now i guess 00:56:46.920 --> 00:56:49.480 that that must be pretty busy pretty involved 00:56:49.480 --> 00:56:53.239 right must not be easy at all now the album is 00:56:53.239 --> 00:56:55.960 not easy at all a lot of issues discussions stuff 00:56:55.960 --> 00:56:59.820 going on like yeah how was the burden how do 00:56:59.820 --> 00:57:02.920 you feel i mean it's certainly it could it's 00:57:02.920 --> 00:57:06.460 it's a full -time job if you let it be uh and 00:57:06.460 --> 00:57:09.800 it's hard to do deep work if you're doing multiple 00:57:09.800 --> 00:57:12.460 jobs so you gotta choose which job you're gonna 00:57:12.460 --> 00:57:16.239 do deep work on i'm keeping up with i think the 00:57:16.239 --> 00:57:18.400 project management at least and occasionally 00:57:18.400 --> 00:57:22.400 doing some patches and guiding prs and things 00:57:22.400 --> 00:57:25.960 like that but i want to do more deep work uh 00:57:25.960 --> 00:57:32.239 pretty soon next year okay and what are the plans 00:57:32.239 --> 00:57:35.400 when you're no longer around let's say that one 00:57:35.400 --> 00:57:38.760 day you decide no you know what emacs is for 00:57:38.760 --> 00:57:41.460 me so i'm gonna jump off and i'm gonna go to 00:57:41.460 --> 00:57:44.360 emacs what's gonna happen to new of them is there 00:57:44.360 --> 00:57:48.719 a plan is there a successor or a group of successors 00:57:48.719 --> 00:57:53.300 or have you thought about that well i mean tiago 00:57:53.300 --> 00:57:56.800 hasn't been around and the album revived and 00:57:56.800 --> 00:58:00.420 thrived i think and uh there was about a year 00:58:00.420 --> 00:58:05.619 around 2020 when i was not very active at all 00:58:06.000 --> 00:58:11.360 And the project continued and did okay. There 00:58:11.360 --> 00:58:13.719 were some things merged that shouldn't have been, 00:58:13.820 --> 00:58:19.059 I think, during that time, but that's okay. So 00:58:19.059 --> 00:58:24.400 when I'm gone, I think Bjorn will certainly be 00:58:24.400 --> 00:58:28.599 around still, I hope. Maybe Jameson. So three 00:58:28.599 --> 00:58:32.380 people currently are... Oh, I should do this. 00:58:32.579 --> 00:58:36.659 Three people. The German. No, wait. Three people 00:58:36.659 --> 00:58:43.099 have owner role on the Neovim organization in 00:58:43.099 --> 00:58:46.719 Neovim, so as long as one of us is still alive, 00:58:46.980 --> 00:58:50.559 then if someone drops out or gets hit by a bus 00:58:50.559 --> 00:58:58.039 or whatever, then that administrative part is 00:58:58.039 --> 00:59:02.460 not at risk. They have the keys to everything 00:59:02.460 --> 00:59:08.639 and things like that. So, yeah, but in terms 00:59:08.639 --> 00:59:11.900 of, say, I don't know, project direction, I think 00:59:11.900 --> 00:59:16.579 Bjorn and I are very aligned on the project direction, 00:59:16.659 --> 00:59:20.440 so I don't think much would change if I were 00:59:20.440 --> 00:59:26.119 not here. And Jameson is not very active right 00:59:26.119 --> 00:59:28.739 now, but maybe he would become more active in 00:59:28.739 --> 00:59:33.769 that scenario. But we're always gaining... new 00:59:33.769 --> 00:59:39.110 smart people that and uh they're building up 00:59:39.110 --> 00:59:42.670 their trust and so you know um it kind of just 00:59:42.670 --> 00:59:45.170 requires judgment to see like who to trust and 00:59:45.170 --> 00:59:49.690 uh yeah maybe we'll have more options in the 00:59:49.690 --> 00:59:52.530 next couple years about uh that kind of thing 00:59:52.530 --> 00:59:57.010 okay makes sense have you heard about uh dina 00:59:57.010 --> 01:00:02.059 he wasn't even con he had his overrides U of 01:00:02.059 --> 01:00:04.420 M configuration. I don't know if you remember 01:00:04.420 --> 01:00:08.820 or if you recall about Dina. How do you spell 01:00:08.820 --> 01:00:12.679 it? D -H -E -E -N -A. And the last name is complex. 01:00:13.039 --> 01:00:17.019 I haven't heard of this person. Hold on. I'm 01:00:17.019 --> 01:00:20.019 going to mute it here. Oh, yeah. Yeah, this guy. 01:00:20.219 --> 01:00:24.579 Dina. Oh, yeah. He's a creative guy. I like him. 01:00:24.699 --> 01:00:28.219 I like his videos. Very relaxing video to watch. 01:00:28.500 --> 01:00:31.960 Yeah. He's an awesome guy. I had it in my podcast. 01:00:32.300 --> 01:00:35.539 It's one of my favorite podcasts, actually. Pretty 01:00:35.539 --> 01:00:39.219 good episode, right? But did you know what happened 01:00:39.219 --> 01:00:41.679 to Dina? Did you know that he moved over to... 01:00:41.679 --> 01:00:44.119 He switched to Emacs. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What 01:00:44.119 --> 01:00:53.559 are your thoughts? His stuff was so... His use 01:00:53.559 --> 01:00:57.349 case was so involved. I think doesn't surprise 01:00:57.349 --> 01:00:59.530 me. I was actually surprised that he was, he 01:00:59.530 --> 01:01:02.010 went as far as he did with, with NeoVim. And 01:01:02.010 --> 01:01:05.809 I think, I don't know, in a, in a couple of years, 01:01:05.889 --> 01:01:10.030 maybe we'll be closer to having better answers 01:01:10.030 --> 01:01:13.590 for some of the stuff that he found lacking maybe. 01:01:13.710 --> 01:01:17.929 But Emacs has some very unique and powerful properties. 01:01:18.010 --> 01:01:20.849 Like the way that, you know, it's documentation 01:01:20.849 --> 01:01:23.650 system, I think is they don't have like docs 01:01:23.650 --> 01:01:27.639 files. They just have, doc strings on their commands 01:01:27.639 --> 01:01:31.380 and those auto generate docs and then so like 01:01:31.380 --> 01:01:35.099 when you look at a doc you you're also can just 01:01:35.099 --> 01:01:39.619 introspect the the the code that it is documenting 01:01:39.619 --> 01:01:42.880 and vice versa that kind of thing is really cool 01:01:42.880 --> 01:01:47.159 and uh i mean it's not perfect though like they 01:01:47.159 --> 01:01:49.639 still have a c core that's about as big as vim's 01:01:49.639 --> 01:01:52.900 c core not many people know this they have like 01:01:52.900 --> 01:01:57.570 the same amount of C code that Vim has, which 01:01:57.570 --> 01:02:03.730 is more than Neovim. So it's not fully extensible. 01:02:04.010 --> 01:02:08.110 Their redraw layer is all in C. You can't extend 01:02:08.110 --> 01:02:11.829 that. You can extend that in Neovim. Neovim has 01:02:11.829 --> 01:02:14.590 a UI protocol. Emacs does not have a UI protocol. 01:02:15.030 --> 01:02:19.230 And also, I just was reminded that this is kind 01:02:19.230 --> 01:02:23.369 of just silly trivia, but You can't pipe standard 01:02:23.369 --> 01:02:28.750 input into Emacs CLI. You can't? No. Did you 01:02:28.750 --> 01:02:30.969 know this? No, I didn't. People have done these 01:02:30.969 --> 01:02:34.289 elaborate things to try to make it work. Oh, 01:02:34.289 --> 01:02:36.789 really? You can't do it. No, because you're not 01:02:36.789 --> 01:02:39.570 supposed to ever be starting Emacs. It's supposed 01:02:39.570 --> 01:02:43.010 to always be running. It's like heaven. It's 01:02:43.010 --> 01:02:45.630 like the firmament. It's just always like... 01:02:46.039 --> 01:02:48.679 blessing you with its life yeah it's the operating 01:02:48.679 --> 01:02:51.019 system you're not ever supposed to be like starting 01:02:51.019 --> 01:02:53.480 or stopping no yeah yeah you turn the computer 01:02:53.480 --> 01:02:56.539 on and it starts emacs and that's where you live 01:02:56.539 --> 01:02:59.860 in so that comes you know that brings us to that 01:02:59.860 --> 01:03:02.260 topic what are your thoughts on emacs have you 01:03:02.260 --> 01:03:05.579 had experiences with emacs have you used it what 01:03:05.579 --> 01:03:08.280 do you think about it i i was i used it heavily 01:03:08.280 --> 01:03:11.780 for about like 12 months and i think that was 01:03:11.780 --> 01:03:14.480 like maybe the year before neovem or maybe it 01:03:14.480 --> 01:03:18.380 was during that first year of NeoVim. I think 01:03:18.380 --> 01:03:21.800 it was 2013. So my knowledge is somewhat out 01:03:21.800 --> 01:03:25.559 of date, but I gave it. I was excited about it. 01:03:25.639 --> 01:03:30.400 I think it's awesome. I like the architecture, 01:03:30.460 --> 01:03:33.719 but there's some things that were holding it 01:03:33.719 --> 01:03:37.159 back. Some of the stuff probably has been fixed. 01:03:37.559 --> 01:03:40.699 Yeah, I ended up switching back to the Vim or 01:03:40.699 --> 01:03:43.409 NeoVim because... There were things that I was 01:03:43.409 --> 01:03:46.070 trying to do in Emacs that could not be done. 01:03:46.590 --> 01:03:50.869 Oh, you found limitations. Yeah, and stuff like 01:03:50.869 --> 01:03:55.289 the quick fix buffer in Vim still behaves, I 01:03:55.289 --> 01:03:57.809 think, better than whatever the Emacs equivalent 01:03:57.809 --> 01:04:01.349 is. The Emacs equivalent is more like Sublime 01:04:01.349 --> 01:04:05.449 Text or Zed. I think that kind of thing. Lots 01:04:05.449 --> 01:04:08.570 of clicking around and trying to do smart stuff. 01:04:09.719 --> 01:04:11.980 How's your relationship with the Emacs community? 01:04:12.179 --> 01:04:14.900 Do you think it is good to have a healthy relationship 01:04:14.900 --> 01:04:18.039 between Emacs and Neovim? Because a lot of features 01:04:18.039 --> 01:04:21.460 are taken, I guess, from inspiration from Emacs 01:04:21.460 --> 01:04:23.519 that are brought over to Neovim. And I guess 01:04:23.519 --> 01:04:25.420 the same thing happens the other way around, 01:04:25.619 --> 01:04:29.099 right? From Neovim to Emacs. Is there beef with 01:04:29.099 --> 01:04:32.059 you and Emacs or no? How's the relationship? 01:04:32.539 --> 01:04:38.159 I think there's very little communication. The 01:04:38.159 --> 01:04:40.380 one time we did have productive communication 01:04:40.380 --> 01:04:45.800 was I asked them about the completion interface, 01:04:46.179 --> 01:04:50.739 and I got some very thoughtful answers from Emacs 01:04:50.739 --> 01:04:54.940 people on the NeoVim issue tracker. But other 01:04:54.940 --> 01:04:58.320 than that, I think they probably ignore us, and 01:04:58.320 --> 01:05:01.019 we kind of ignore them. I don't know that we 01:05:01.019 --> 01:05:05.159 necessarily... When I see a good idea in Emacs 01:05:05.159 --> 01:05:10.039 or VS Code, That gets the wheels turning and 01:05:10.039 --> 01:05:13.980 I start thinking about if it makes sense in the 01:05:13.980 --> 01:05:19.860 open. This is the only way to be maximally useful. 01:05:20.760 --> 01:05:23.119 And that's all I want. I just want a maximally 01:05:23.119 --> 01:05:26.780 useful tool. That's what I want. That's the main 01:05:26.780 --> 01:05:33.139 interest that I have in this. What are your thoughts 01:05:33.139 --> 01:05:36.599 on other editors? There's one out there that 01:05:36.599 --> 01:05:39.420 has Multicursor. Guess which one I'm going to 01:05:39.420 --> 01:05:43.519 ask about. Sublime Text. No, another one. That 01:05:43.519 --> 01:05:46.460 was the one that really popularized that feature 01:05:46.460 --> 01:05:49.059 that no one talks about anymore. Oh, no, but 01:05:49.059 --> 01:05:50.460 another one that looks like Vim. No one talks 01:05:50.460 --> 01:05:54.039 about it anymore. Yeah, actually. Why is that? 01:05:55.019 --> 01:05:58.980 Because of NeoVim? No, I think people just like... 01:05:58.980 --> 01:06:04.389 I think the people that... The vocal people that 01:06:04.389 --> 01:06:08.389 are writing blog posts and making who knows what 01:06:08.389 --> 01:06:11.769 Reddit posts about how great a text editor is 01:06:11.769 --> 01:06:15.050 based on whether it has multi -cursor, those 01:06:15.050 --> 01:06:18.909 are the people that just kind of migrate to the 01:06:18.909 --> 01:06:22.389 next editor whenever it comes out. They're not 01:06:22.389 --> 01:06:25.960 loyal. There's no stickiness there. Well, I mean, 01:06:26.059 --> 01:06:28.460 obviously, I don't think anyone needs to be loyal 01:06:28.460 --> 01:06:31.119 to a text editor. But I would say it's more like 01:06:31.119 --> 01:06:33.599 there's not any stickiness there. Why isn't there 01:06:33.599 --> 01:06:36.860 any stickiness? It's because the stuff that they 01:06:36.860 --> 01:06:41.480 were enjoying about it was mostly like... It's 01:06:41.480 --> 01:06:44.840 stuff that feels good on the first impression, 01:06:44.940 --> 01:06:47.800 which is important. And it's stuff that feels 01:06:47.800 --> 01:06:50.880 good out of the box. But it's not... It's not 01:06:50.880 --> 01:06:53.380 the other part, which is the extensibility. They're 01:06:53.380 --> 01:06:55.360 not doing anything with the extensibility. They're 01:06:55.360 --> 01:06:58.800 not really making super personalized mappings. 01:06:59.360 --> 01:07:03.039 Are we talking about Helix here? No, but I think 01:07:03.039 --> 01:07:07.179 maybe probably Helix is another example of that 01:07:07.179 --> 01:07:11.300 where they have targeted some niche. I don't 01:07:11.300 --> 01:07:13.139 know how big the niche is or how small it is. 01:07:13.280 --> 01:07:16.039 I think targeting a niche is a good idea. But 01:07:16.039 --> 01:07:18.639 the niche that Neovim is targeting is the people 01:07:18.639 --> 01:07:21.409 that care about the people that want to extend 01:07:21.409 --> 01:07:23.309 stuff or the people that have like particular 01:07:23.309 --> 01:07:27.070 tastes. And if you have particular tastes, right? 01:07:28.289 --> 01:07:31.449 No, you're not going to bait me into this kind 01:07:31.449 --> 01:07:35.530 of thing. I'm genuinely like text editor agnostic. 01:07:35.650 --> 01:07:38.590 I don't care what people use and I will switch 01:07:38.590 --> 01:07:41.730 to something better if I find it. Like I have, 01:07:41.730 --> 01:07:47.969 I have no real, like I'm promiscuous. I, I, I'm 01:07:47.969 --> 01:07:51.610 a, I have a commitment. I don't want to commit 01:07:51.610 --> 01:07:56.090 to anything. I don't care about the OS that I'm 01:07:56.090 --> 01:07:58.349 using and I don't care about the text editor. 01:07:58.429 --> 01:08:02.789 I just want a maximally useful tool that is flexible 01:08:02.789 --> 01:08:08.590 and lightweight and portable that I can use for 01:08:08.590 --> 01:08:12.710 a bunch of different purposes and is going to 01:08:12.710 --> 01:08:16.229 last a long time. Have you used Helix? Have you 01:08:16.229 --> 01:08:21.669 used it? Do you have any thoughts on it? When 01:08:21.669 --> 01:08:24.789 I first tried it, I think it didn't run because 01:08:24.789 --> 01:08:27.149 I didn't have the right version of macOS. But 01:08:27.149 --> 01:08:31.529 I think I tried it later, more recently. But 01:08:31.529 --> 01:08:35.949 yeah, I haven't used it extensively. But I've 01:08:35.949 --> 01:08:43.430 been paying attention to the key ideas from it. 01:08:43.789 --> 01:08:47.010 Like the key ideas is that better default and 01:08:47.010 --> 01:08:52.090 people rightly criticize the bootstrapping experience 01:08:52.090 --> 01:08:58.130 for LSP in NeoVim was too cumbersome. And we, 01:08:58.250 --> 01:09:04.149 I think, solved 80 % of that in 2025. We still 01:09:04.149 --> 01:09:07.130 have a little bit more to do there. But like 01:09:07.130 --> 01:09:10.109 a big part of 2025 was having a good answer to 01:09:10.109 --> 01:09:11.770 that. And I think we have a pretty good answer 01:09:11.770 --> 01:09:17.039 now. the plugin manager is another aspect of 01:09:17.039 --> 01:09:20.279 that is because well plugin manager is not really 01:09:20.279 --> 01:09:23.159 going to help you install lsp servers and i think 01:09:23.159 --> 01:09:27.720 we we uh we will never attempt to do that i don't 01:09:27.720 --> 01:09:29.840 think helix does that either maybe it does but 01:09:29.840 --> 01:09:33.100 yeah that's good for like demo wear like once 01:09:33.100 --> 01:09:37.270 you start like installing lsp servers from your 01:09:37.270 --> 01:09:40.750 texas that works for the happy path and it's 01:09:40.750 --> 01:09:42.729 great for demos and you'll get a lot of like 01:09:42.729 --> 01:09:46.510 excitement from people just like who are just 01:09:46.510 --> 01:09:50.609 only on the happy path and they're not doing 01:09:50.609 --> 01:09:54.770 i don't know projects that have more complex 01:09:54.770 --> 01:09:57.810 requirements or whatever or if it's like vs code 01:09:57.810 --> 01:10:01.289 vs code like has like a team of people working 01:10:01.289 --> 01:10:04.779 on each lsp plugin like they have a team of people 01:10:04.779 --> 01:10:08.720 working on the python plugin yeah you can make 01:10:08.720 --> 01:10:10.859 things work you can make things work nicely if 01:10:10.859 --> 01:10:12.640 you have a team of people working on the resources 01:10:12.640 --> 01:10:17.239 like funded people like these people are making 01:10:17.239 --> 01:10:20.500 four hundred thousand dollars each per year yeah 01:10:20.500 --> 01:10:24.500 and they're working on a python plugin yeah imagine 01:10:24.500 --> 01:10:28.659 now you also touched on operating system a moment 01:10:28.659 --> 01:10:32.220 ago and i want to ask you which one is your operating 01:10:32.220 --> 01:10:36.460 system of choice and why well i'm using mac os 01:10:36.460 --> 01:10:40.119 because it mostly because i like i just want 01:10:40.119 --> 01:10:44.220 a laptop that that works well and like the sleep 01:10:44.220 --> 01:10:48.979 behavior is is uh i i need to not care about 01:10:48.979 --> 01:10:51.340 dealing with any of that and also like i guess 01:10:51.340 --> 01:10:54.520 the media devices on it probably work better 01:10:54.520 --> 01:10:57.180 than maybe still the current state of the art 01:10:57.180 --> 01:11:00.949 for linux i'm not sure but yeah i'm i'm I try 01:11:00.949 --> 01:11:04.989 to be OS agnostic. I spin up plenty of Linux 01:11:04.989 --> 01:11:09.550 machines at work and use those for development, 01:11:09.890 --> 01:11:12.850 like eight hours a day development purposes. 01:11:13.189 --> 01:11:19.029 But those are headless. My headless OS of choice 01:11:19.029 --> 01:11:23.170 is Linux. Which is true. Well, at work, it's 01:11:23.170 --> 01:11:27.010 just some crappy version of Red Hat. percent 01:11:27.010 --> 01:11:29.689 or whatever like some derivative of that and 01:11:29.689 --> 01:11:33.930 um but i used to be a debian guy oh okay okay 01:11:33.930 --> 01:11:36.989 probably now the amazon linux one the one you're 01:11:36.989 --> 01:11:39.689 talking about yeah okay okay i probably would 01:11:39.689 --> 01:11:43.449 if i would i mean at a previous job uh i was 01:11:43.449 --> 01:11:47.409 using a lot of ubuntu even on i think embedded 01:11:47.409 --> 01:11:50.350 systems so -called embedded systems i think we 01:11:50.350 --> 01:11:54.560 were using ubuntu like What happened to Debian, 01:11:54.659 --> 01:11:56.899 your relationship and Debian on the server? It's 01:11:56.899 --> 01:11:59.479 like, does someone else choose? Because it happened 01:11:59.479 --> 01:12:01.539 to me at my previous company, right? Someone 01:12:01.539 --> 01:12:04.720 else deployed the VMs and he decided to use Amazon 01:12:04.720 --> 01:12:07.680 Linux. And I was like, man, why? Why don't we 01:12:07.680 --> 01:12:10.000 use Debian? And it was too late at that point 01:12:10.000 --> 01:12:12.500 and whatever. We just used that, right? But what 01:12:12.500 --> 01:12:14.899 happened with you and Debian? Why the move to 01:12:14.899 --> 01:12:16.979 Amazon Linux? Of course, because you work at 01:12:16.979 --> 01:12:20.760 Amazon, right? Yeah, yeah, exactly. that that's 01:12:20.760 --> 01:12:24.340 you you you pretty much have to use that if you 01:12:24.340 --> 01:12:29.939 uh want to avoid headaches um and also like i 01:12:29.939 --> 01:12:34.520 think it's what they it's i think uh you know 01:12:34.520 --> 01:12:37.779 that's the best supported thing for cloud related 01:12:37.779 --> 01:12:40.880 like vms and things like that is you want to 01:12:40.880 --> 01:12:44.319 use whatever your cloud provider is using usually 01:12:44.319 --> 01:12:47.819 yeah makes sense so avoid headaches okay just 01:12:47.819 --> 01:12:50.520 like you mentioned and Have you ever thought 01:12:50.520 --> 01:12:55.359 about daily driving Linux or you're just going 01:12:55.359 --> 01:13:00.760 to stick to macOS? Sure. Yeah, I'm always keeping 01:13:00.760 --> 01:13:06.119 my options open. As soon as I hear that Sleep 01:13:06.119 --> 01:13:10.220 works well, I might start thinking about it. 01:13:10.600 --> 01:13:13.279 I know people are talking about the Framework 01:13:13.279 --> 01:13:18.479 laptop, but I haven't heard that Sleep is flawless 01:13:18.479 --> 01:13:22.439 on it yet. And by sleep, you mean that you just 01:13:22.439 --> 01:13:25.659 close the Mac. Two days later, you open it up 01:13:25.659 --> 01:13:28.359 and it's still 80 % charged. Is that what you're 01:13:28.359 --> 01:13:31.979 talking about? Yeah. Or a week after you open 01:13:31.979 --> 01:13:35.039 it up, it still has charge. Yeah. I'm on macOS 01:13:35.039 --> 01:13:38.600 as well. And most of my audience is Linux. I 01:13:38.600 --> 01:13:41.039 ran a poll the other day in a YouTube post and 01:13:41.039 --> 01:13:45.319 I was expecting most of them to be macOS users, 01:13:45.420 --> 01:13:49.369 but no. They're Linux users and they're constantly 01:13:49.369 --> 01:13:52.430 telling me that I should switch to Linux. And 01:13:52.430 --> 01:13:57.310 I thought about it and I was like, but what am 01:13:57.310 --> 01:13:59.829 I going to gain from this? I'm going to invest 01:13:59.829 --> 01:14:01.890 a lot of time. I know that I'm going to invest 01:14:01.890 --> 01:14:04.529 a lot of time. I'm not going to run some distro 01:14:04.529 --> 01:14:07.510 out there. I will probably run something on my 01:14:07.510 --> 01:14:10.859 own. spend weeks but what are the gains gonna 01:14:10.859 --> 01:14:13.220 be yeah of course i'm not gonna be tied to apple 01:14:13.220 --> 01:14:15.899 proprietary stuff i don't care about proprietary 01:14:15.899 --> 01:14:19.399 stuff to be honest as long as it works but um 01:14:19.399 --> 01:14:23.760 do you have any thoughts there um i'm glad to 01:14:23.760 --> 01:14:27.039 see linux gaining popularity i was i started 01:14:27.039 --> 01:14:30.420 using linux in 2000 my first distro was suza 01:14:30.420 --> 01:14:39.130 um but i also like i'm a staunch agnostic i intentionally 01:14:39.130 --> 01:14:43.250 don't care because i don't want to be hurt but 01:14:43.250 --> 01:14:47.529 also i just don't think advocacy works at all 01:14:47.529 --> 01:14:52.090 ever but also i i think like there's there's 01:14:52.090 --> 01:14:54.770 an economic argument economics will save us which 01:14:54.770 --> 01:14:58.770 is like like everyone will use what's best eventually 01:14:58.770 --> 01:15:03.449 it's good enough so um and and also like linux 01:15:03.449 --> 01:15:06.449 doesn't really need any help like it's on every 01:15:06.449 --> 01:15:11.760 phone yep Or Unix. Unix is on the iPhones, some 01:15:11.760 --> 01:15:16.359 form of Unix. So Linux already won. It's not 01:15:16.359 --> 01:15:20.079 ready on the desktop because Mark Shuttleworth 01:15:20.079 --> 01:15:25.659 tried, but they just don't have kind of... Framework 01:15:25.659 --> 01:15:30.199 Computer maybe is also... Maybe they will kind 01:15:30.199 --> 01:15:32.239 of solve this problem where you just have that 01:15:32.239 --> 01:15:37.140 really well -functioning, integrated... sort 01:15:37.140 --> 01:15:40.180 of unit that you aren't screwing around with 01:15:40.180 --> 01:15:45.899 and is not getting in your way. Like I kind of 01:15:45.899 --> 01:15:51.819 alluded to earlier, everyone is in a different 01:15:51.819 --> 01:15:55.340 journey about what they want to focus their attention 01:15:55.340 --> 01:16:01.069 on for a given moment or day or week. I don't 01:16:01.069 --> 01:16:03.390 even really want to care about a distro. The 01:16:03.390 --> 01:16:05.970 whole distro thing is kind of an accident. I 01:16:05.970 --> 01:16:10.250 think probably Linus himself is kind of puzzled 01:16:10.250 --> 01:16:12.890 by this whole situation because he's working 01:16:12.890 --> 01:16:15.829 on a kernel. He just wants to get his kernel 01:16:15.829 --> 01:16:17.829 on his computer and then all these different 01:16:17.829 --> 01:16:27.369 flavors of user space stuff. You can focus only 01:16:27.369 --> 01:16:30.880 on one thing at a time. trying to digest the 01:16:30.880 --> 01:16:34.399 universe or the ocean at the same time, it just 01:16:34.399 --> 01:16:38.439 becomes overwhelming. But I did, I did all this 01:16:38.439 --> 01:16:41.239 stuff. I fought X org. I fought X org before 01:16:41.239 --> 01:16:46.319 it was X org. Okay. Do you get, do you get pushback 01:16:46.319 --> 01:16:49.079 from your friends and the new open core team? 01:16:49.119 --> 01:16:52.020 I know Gregory Anders is a Mac OS lover, just 01:16:52.020 --> 01:16:54.880 like me. I'm not a Mac OS lover. Don't tell anyone, 01:16:55.060 --> 01:16:58.239 but I am, but. I know Gregory does love macOS 01:16:58.239 --> 01:17:01.899 because I had him the other day in an interview 01:17:01.899 --> 01:17:04.520 and he talked about the Apple Watch, the Apple 01:17:04.520 --> 01:17:08.300 TV, all that stuff. So do you get pushback from 01:17:08.300 --> 01:17:11.500 other people besides Greg? Like, why are you 01:17:11.500 --> 01:17:13.800 on macOS? You should switch to Linux, like a 01:17:13.800 --> 01:17:18.699 real chat. My Apple usage is confined to a laptop. 01:17:18.800 --> 01:17:22.640 I don't use any other Apple products, although 01:17:22.640 --> 01:17:26.039 I'm sure they work well together. And I don't, 01:17:26.039 --> 01:17:30.699 no, I don't get any, I don't think, no, yeah, 01:17:30.779 --> 01:17:34.079 people are pretty OS agnostic. We need more Windows 01:17:34.079 --> 01:17:37.159 developers. We've started to see some activity 01:17:37.159 --> 01:17:42.739 there on the pull requests. But yeah, I would 01:17:42.739 --> 01:17:45.300 love to have some Windows developers that are 01:17:45.300 --> 01:17:48.539 paying attention to. Yeah, if you want to touch 01:17:48.539 --> 01:17:50.420 on that, because Gregory mentioned it too, and 01:17:50.420 --> 01:17:52.420 I created a video about that, you know, like 01:17:52.420 --> 01:17:55.500 NeoVim needs your help. And Gregory was like 01:17:55.500 --> 01:17:58.479 this pointing, like with Uncle Sam, how is it 01:17:58.479 --> 01:18:00.800 called? I don't remember. But what do you need 01:18:00.800 --> 01:18:03.859 help with on the Windows side? And what's the 01:18:03.859 --> 01:18:06.779 best way for someone to, you know, contribute 01:18:06.779 --> 01:18:09.699 to NeoVim on the Windows side to become a core 01:18:09.699 --> 01:18:12.619 maintainer? What, yeah, just share about that 01:18:12.619 --> 01:18:17.970 with us. There's a Windows label on the issue 01:18:17.970 --> 01:18:20.829 tracker. There's about less than 100 Windows 01:18:20.829 --> 01:18:25.170 issues. The ones that really would be helpful 01:18:25.170 --> 01:18:29.949 is having someone sit down and solve path handling 01:18:29.949 --> 01:18:33.649 in a coherent way. We kind of just need to rework 01:18:33.649 --> 01:18:38.189 the way that flashes are handled in the path. 01:18:38.449 --> 01:18:41.649 That would be a good start. There's a few other 01:18:41.649 --> 01:18:44.850 issues. I don't know. But the file system stuff 01:18:44.850 --> 01:18:48.489 is really the main thing to start with. Okay. 01:18:48.810 --> 01:18:52.970 And this is for the native Windows application. 01:18:53.289 --> 01:18:56.449 Is that correct? Yep. That's right. I'm going 01:18:56.449 --> 01:18:58.270 to switch back to our screen. Is there anything 01:18:58.270 --> 01:19:01.689 else you want to show here? No. No. Okay. So 01:19:01.689 --> 01:19:04.130 that's native Windows application that you need 01:19:04.130 --> 01:19:08.090 help with. Okay. So people just go there, install 01:19:08.090 --> 01:19:12.949 plot code and vibe code. uh solutions and send 01:19:12.949 --> 01:19:18.010 you a what are your thoughts on 2000 line ers 01:19:18.010 --> 01:19:21.470 that you're like this was ai generated does that 01:19:21.470 --> 01:19:24.770 impose a lot of a burden on your side and it's 01:19:24.770 --> 01:19:26.710 like because you have to review it understand 01:19:26.710 --> 01:19:30.430 and all that stuff um yeah what's the best way 01:19:30.430 --> 01:19:34.729 to contribute to new of him well ai is it's fine 01:19:34.729 --> 01:19:39.850 to use ai but um definitely the human that's 01:19:40.199 --> 01:19:44.380 Authoring the PR should review it before asking 01:19:44.380 --> 01:19:47.640 us to review it. It's easy to tell which ones 01:19:47.640 --> 01:19:51.659 are AI -generated. They just have a certain voice 01:19:51.659 --> 01:19:54.600 and they do certain things that are obvious. 01:19:55.579 --> 01:20:00.060 The human should take some time to double -check 01:20:00.060 --> 01:20:05.779 what it's doing and compare it to existing code 01:20:05.779 --> 01:20:11.699 in our codebase. The way that the AI writes tests 01:20:11.699 --> 01:20:15.000 is kind of just, it's not following the patterns 01:20:15.000 --> 01:20:19.119 of our other tests. Okay. The human should check 01:20:19.119 --> 01:20:22.000 that before they ask for a review. Yeah, because 01:20:22.000 --> 01:20:26.000 that's just a lot of work for you, right? Yeah, 01:20:26.159 --> 01:20:29.779 I guess it would be extremely annoying to get 01:20:29.779 --> 01:20:34.319 that type of PRs. And let me just read this because 01:20:34.319 --> 01:20:38.159 I just got a super chat here. I don't think you'll 01:20:38.159 --> 01:20:40.659 be able to see it, but it says here, Miguel Rodriguez, 01:20:41.159 --> 01:20:44.039 Justin, thanks for your amazing work on NeoVim. 01:20:44.159 --> 01:20:47.840 The project is amazing. The Lua APIs are a joy 01:20:47.840 --> 01:20:51.180 to work with. So easy to make the editor truly 01:20:51.180 --> 01:20:56.960 personal. Nice words from Miguel there. Appreciate 01:20:56.960 --> 01:21:00.539 the donation. And is there something that you 01:21:00.539 --> 01:21:03.279 want to demo on your side? So we can talk about 01:21:03.279 --> 01:21:10.859 the roadmap. We implemented restart and attach, 01:21:11.359 --> 01:21:15.359 but no one even noticed. What do you mean by 01:21:15.359 --> 01:21:19.579 restart? Like I can reapply my config without 01:21:19.579 --> 01:21:22.920 quitting NeoVim and reopen it again? Is that? 01:21:23.319 --> 01:21:27.220 what that is that's right oh really i have been 01:21:27.220 --> 01:21:30.100 quitting neo vim every time i can make a change 01:21:30.100 --> 01:21:36.000 so but that's 0 .12 or yeah yeah that hasn't 01:21:36.000 --> 01:21:41.640 been in 0 .11 so i can demo that now but the 01:21:41.640 --> 01:21:46.539 trade -off or the uh the caveat is that uh it 01:21:46.539 --> 01:21:49.699 currently doesn't restore your session okay so 01:21:49.699 --> 01:21:52.420 like we can just try that i'm gonna do restart 01:21:53.210 --> 01:21:55.529 should i should i make this bigger just do this 01:21:55.529 --> 01:21:59.069 yeah yeah that's awesome yep okay so if i type 01:21:59.069 --> 01:22:04.670 restart it just it restarted the entire process 01:22:04.670 --> 01:22:07.909 and so it didn't restore the session so i have 01:22:07.909 --> 01:22:12.970 to manually go back to that file but help restart 01:22:12.970 --> 01:22:17.789 it gives some tips about how you can kind of 01:22:17.789 --> 01:22:23.220 do it manually so um you can just use make session 01:22:23.220 --> 01:22:27.960 and then and then restart takes a command line 01:22:27.960 --> 01:22:31.579 and it will do that that's when it when the process 01:22:31.579 --> 01:22:36.260 restarts so now we can uh try this let me make 01:22:36.260 --> 01:22:38.880 sure i don't have a session in here no i do okay 01:22:38.880 --> 01:22:42.300 so i remove that now we're gonna do this save 01:22:42.300 --> 01:22:46.539 the session restart and it should it's it worked 01:22:46.539 --> 01:22:49.840 all right great so we just did a full restart 01:22:49.840 --> 01:22:53.930 of the process and it And it restored the session. 01:22:54.109 --> 01:22:57.670 But yeah, it's kind of a small thing, but it's 01:22:57.670 --> 01:23:01.750 also a huge quality of life improvement. And 01:23:01.750 --> 01:23:04.590 the funny thing is that people are using it a 01:23:04.590 --> 01:23:09.250 ton. I'm seeing it pop up in demo videos and 01:23:09.250 --> 01:23:14.130 blog posts and instructions on people's plugins 01:23:14.130 --> 01:23:17.229 or whatever. So people know about it, and they're 01:23:17.229 --> 01:23:20.130 using the heck out of it. Oh, yeah. I didn't 01:23:20.130 --> 01:23:22.270 know about it. It's like this humble little feature 01:23:22.270 --> 01:23:26.850 that is like... The reason that it's tying together, 01:23:26.930 --> 01:23:30.050 it's dependent on the client -server architecture 01:23:30.050 --> 01:23:37.670 of NeoVim. We implemented the UI as a client 01:23:37.670 --> 01:23:40.970 to another NeoVim process, which is the server. 01:23:41.510 --> 01:23:45.010 And that was another thing that people kind of 01:23:45.010 --> 01:23:47.229 were skeptical. Some people. I shouldn't say 01:23:47.229 --> 01:23:50.500 people. I should say... Some small portion of 01:23:50.500 --> 01:23:55.180 people were skeptical about it. But it's just 01:23:55.180 --> 01:23:57.460 like one of those things that it's the right 01:23:57.460 --> 01:24:01.539 architecture. It makes it easier to reason about 01:24:01.539 --> 01:24:07.640 the system. It drives technical decisions in 01:24:07.640 --> 01:24:10.380 the right direction because it forces us to avoid 01:24:10.380 --> 01:24:15.739 shortcuts. So one of the things it forces us 01:24:15.739 --> 01:24:20.739 to avoid is... Because the terminal UI is a UI 01:24:20.739 --> 01:24:24.319 just like a GUI, just like a graphical UI, it 01:24:24.319 --> 01:24:27.720 means that we can't take shortcuts. So we have 01:24:27.720 --> 01:24:31.359 to use the full UI protocol just like a graphical 01:24:31.359 --> 01:24:34.600 UI would, which means it's driving us to do things 01:24:34.600 --> 01:24:37.720 the right way. And then on top of that, when 01:24:37.720 --> 01:24:40.640 you do things in a nice architecture, then you 01:24:40.640 --> 01:24:42.739 get these little serendipitous possibilities 01:24:42.739 --> 01:24:47.029 like restart. implementing restart was i don't 01:24:47.029 --> 01:24:52.449 know 100 lines of code total maybe and it but 01:24:52.449 --> 01:24:56.310 but it it sits on top of this architectural decision 01:24:56.310 --> 01:25:00.149 that we made years ago okay and and so it would 01:25:00.149 --> 01:25:02.729 not be possible without this this architecture 01:25:02.729 --> 01:25:05.770 not you could do it in a hacky way where like 01:25:05.770 --> 01:25:09.250 the way that like you could hack it but you can't 01:25:09.250 --> 01:25:11.869 you couldn't do it like in a terminal thing The 01:25:11.869 --> 01:25:14.970 way that a lot of programs like VS Code implement 01:25:14.970 --> 01:25:18.529 this is they'll have a watch or a service or 01:25:18.529 --> 01:25:22.329 something, and then it will sort of trampoline 01:25:22.329 --> 01:25:27.010 the restart. But you couldn't do that in a terminal 01:25:27.010 --> 01:25:31.329 because the terminal involves a shell. So that 01:25:31.329 --> 01:25:34.170 trampoline would have to do something really 01:25:34.170 --> 01:25:36.930 cheesy like, I don't know, send keys to your 01:25:36.930 --> 01:25:42.989 shell and do it that way. It cannot access the 01:25:42.989 --> 01:25:47.029 interior session of your shell. So there's no 01:25:47.029 --> 01:25:48.949 way that a service can do that. You can only 01:25:48.949 --> 01:25:51.510 do this with this architecture. Awesome. And 01:25:51.510 --> 01:25:57.750 I don't know if Emacs has this. It might have 01:25:57.750 --> 01:26:01.510 it. Actually, I think it does. So that's pretty 01:26:01.510 --> 01:26:04.909 cool. And then also Detach works too. So let 01:26:04.909 --> 01:26:11.199 me... I do listen on a local... It's a socket, 01:26:11.380 --> 01:26:14.479 right? Okay. Yeah, it's just a naming convention. 01:26:14.920 --> 01:26:18.819 And so now you can see my server is that file. 01:26:19.159 --> 01:26:22.439 That's the server address. Server address. Now, 01:26:22.500 --> 01:26:28.579 if I do detach, then the server is still running. 01:26:28.979 --> 01:26:35.460 Okay. Server's still running. And I can reattach 01:26:35.460 --> 01:26:39.159 to the server. Actually, I should have... I should 01:26:39.159 --> 01:26:41.920 have done this. Now you can see I detached again. 01:26:42.060 --> 01:26:43.920 Now when I reattach, it will still have that. 01:26:44.199 --> 01:26:46.619 Why didn't that work? Oh, because I quit instead 01:26:46.619 --> 01:26:50.819 of detaching. Okay, so we're thinking about something 01:26:50.819 --> 01:26:55.000 like tmux here, right? So that you detach and 01:26:55.000 --> 01:27:00.140 reattach. And I guess this would work remotely 01:27:00.140 --> 01:27:03.960 as well. If you leave it running on a server, 01:27:04.159 --> 01:27:07.199 can you reattach to it from another location 01:27:07.199 --> 01:27:12.920 then? yeah exactly oh man that's awesome what 01:27:12.920 --> 01:27:16.180 what drove this was it tmux i mean that's the 01:27:16.180 --> 01:27:20.279 idea yeah it's the same sort of model so this 01:27:20.279 --> 01:27:24.239 and if i detach and then i do remote ui that 01:27:24.239 --> 01:27:28.260 has the ui i was doing it wrong because um i 01:27:28.260 --> 01:27:31.239 forgot to put a remote ui in there this is something 01:27:31.239 --> 01:27:34.380 that i actually want to drop i want it to just 01:27:34.380 --> 01:27:38.899 work without doing remote ui but oh okay there's 01:27:38.899 --> 01:27:42.140 something else cool i wanna so we added also 01:27:42.140 --> 01:27:45.420 connect this is kind of experimental right now 01:27:45.420 --> 01:27:50.539 but connect would allow you to connect at at 01:27:50.539 --> 01:27:54.979 runtime from a different neo vim process so we're 01:27:54.979 --> 01:27:57.279 gonna do actually we'll just do this and then 01:27:57.279 --> 01:28:00.899 i'll start a new one now if i do connect hold 01:28:00.899 --> 01:28:03.159 on it doesn't we lost your connection there for 01:28:03.159 --> 01:28:06.399 a little while so You detached from the instance 01:28:06.399 --> 01:28:09.739 that you were on before or what did you do? You 01:28:09.739 --> 01:28:13.020 just opened a new window below? Yeah, this is 01:28:13.020 --> 01:28:18.020 a new window. Okay. Oh, that's experimental and 01:28:18.020 --> 01:28:21.600 that did not work. Imagine doing all of this 01:28:21.600 --> 01:28:25.140 in a live stream. People would tune in, man. 01:28:25.279 --> 01:28:28.100 So hopefully next year, right? I don't watch 01:28:28.100 --> 01:28:30.619 live streams either. You know, I don't like watching 01:28:30.619 --> 01:28:33.630 live streams. I like watching clips, so if you 01:28:33.630 --> 01:28:36.090 can make clips out of your live streams, it would 01:28:36.090 --> 01:28:40.270 be awesome as well. Yeah, I think the connect 01:28:40.270 --> 01:28:43.890 command... Yeah, okay, so that worked. The connect 01:28:43.890 --> 01:28:47.270 command has a bug in it because the tilde was 01:28:47.270 --> 01:28:50.069 there and it didn't expand it. And then it just 01:28:50.069 --> 01:28:54.029 crashed. But yeah, those three things are all 01:28:54.029 --> 01:28:56.550 kind of tied together. Can you explain connect? 01:28:56.630 --> 01:28:58.970 I didn't understand how that works. What's the 01:28:58.970 --> 01:29:02.869 purpose of connect? So instead of, whoops, I 01:29:02.869 --> 01:29:07.550 quit from the server, so it closed everything. 01:29:07.810 --> 01:29:12.449 All right, so the top one is a server and a UI 01:29:12.449 --> 01:29:17.210 running. And then, so instead of doing, instead 01:29:17.210 --> 01:29:19.770 of connecting, instead of specifying the server 01:29:19.770 --> 01:29:22.529 at the command line here, I can just start a 01:29:22.529 --> 01:29:27.489 new InVim instance and do, like, I don't know. 01:29:28.079 --> 01:29:30.159 So I'm doing stuff in here, blah, blah, blah. 01:29:30.460 --> 01:29:34.500 But now I want to throw away this instance and 01:29:34.500 --> 01:29:40.800 connect to a different server from this instance, 01:29:40.899 --> 01:29:43.739 which means there's some choices that we have 01:29:43.739 --> 01:29:46.699 to make about what we do with the current server 01:29:46.699 --> 01:29:51.319 when we do this. But it's a way of just changing 01:29:51.319 --> 01:29:54.640 the server that you are connected to from this 01:29:54.640 --> 01:29:58.359 UI. so now it will connect see it connected to 01:29:58.359 --> 01:30:02.340 the the same server the same server even when 01:30:02.340 --> 01:30:05.100 i when i move them both the movement is happening 01:30:05.100 --> 01:30:08.800 on the server both uis are showing the the same 01:30:08.800 --> 01:30:13.079 ui oh so you did connect you do it with that 01:30:13.079 --> 01:30:18.460 within an ubm instance and um to attach to an 01:30:18.460 --> 01:30:22.680 instance you do it from outside right uh through 01:30:22.680 --> 01:30:26.760 the socket I did it from within this... Well, 01:30:26.859 --> 01:30:28.739 it doesn't have a different history now because 01:30:28.739 --> 01:30:32.220 it's connected to a different server. Okay. But 01:30:32.220 --> 01:30:36.579 I did it from... This is another usability thing 01:30:36.579 --> 01:30:40.220 that I need to think about. Because if you quit, 01:30:40.399 --> 01:30:44.600 then it quits the server. You have to... Oh, 01:30:44.659 --> 01:30:46.699 you want to keep the server running, right? Yeah, 01:30:46.720 --> 01:30:48.199 if you want to keep the server running, you have 01:30:48.199 --> 01:30:56.699 to detach. Oh, okay. Makes sense. And this connect 01:30:56.699 --> 01:31:00.680 thing is not getting added to history. That's 01:31:00.680 --> 01:31:04.560 probably another bug. It should be updating the 01:31:04.560 --> 01:31:11.460 history before it does its thing. And it's not 01:31:11.460 --> 01:31:15.130 doing that right now, I think. And how do you 01:31:15.130 --> 01:31:18.149 think people could benefit out of this? Do you 01:31:18.149 --> 01:31:20.489 mind sharing some scenarios? Like a remote server 01:31:20.489 --> 01:31:22.489 could be one of them. What do you have in mind? 01:31:23.130 --> 01:31:26.750 This is a Summer of Code project that kind of 01:31:26.750 --> 01:31:33.170 only got 70 % completed. A use case for this 01:31:33.170 --> 01:31:42.449 is to avoid people having to craft a command. 01:31:43.310 --> 01:31:46.489 in the command line which is not just a usability 01:31:46.489 --> 01:31:51.010 thing but also it it opens up new applications 01:31:51.010 --> 01:31:53.710 and so so one of the applications of this is 01:31:53.710 --> 01:31:56.350 like if you want to connect like say you have 01:31:56.350 --> 01:32:00.489 a bunch of ssh servers all the connect commands 01:32:00.489 --> 01:32:04.449 can present a menu of all the all the ssh servers 01:32:04.449 --> 01:32:07.250 that it knows about and then connect to them 01:32:07.250 --> 01:32:12.020 it can connect to uh and it can also presents 01:32:12.020 --> 01:32:15.460 a menu of all the local NeoVim servers that you 01:32:15.460 --> 01:32:18.819 have running. There's one use case that I think 01:32:18.819 --> 01:32:21.420 is interesting for this. This is kind of just 01:32:21.420 --> 01:32:25.619 a minor thing, but a lot of times when you open 01:32:25.619 --> 01:32:29.520 something, when you open a file from your file 01:32:29.520 --> 01:32:34.819 manager, you want it to open in an existing instance 01:32:34.819 --> 01:32:39.579 of NeoVim. That usually feels better because 01:32:40.969 --> 01:32:43.850 If you just start fresh every time, then you 01:32:43.850 --> 01:32:46.029 don't have access to the other buffers or whatever 01:32:46.029 --> 01:32:48.250 that are open in your current instance. And so 01:32:48.250 --> 01:32:54.250 this enables that because it can just connect 01:32:54.250 --> 01:32:57.350 to the, I don't know, a first server or maybe 01:32:57.350 --> 01:33:00.130 some server with a special name. Whatever you 01:33:00.130 --> 01:33:03.069 mark as your default server, it could open the 01:33:03.069 --> 01:33:07.520 file in that server. And that will work in a 01:33:07.520 --> 01:33:10.359 terminal because it can just start a new terminal 01:33:10.359 --> 01:33:15.439 and, you know, do this kind of thing and open 01:33:15.439 --> 01:33:20.020 the file in an existing NeoVim server. Oh, that's 01:33:20.020 --> 01:33:23.380 awesome. I have a question for you. So let's 01:33:23.380 --> 01:33:26.720 say that I run NeoVim on a server, remote server, 01:33:26.960 --> 01:33:30.640 right? I run a NeoVim instance on it and I start 01:33:30.640 --> 01:33:38.020 the socket there, right? to that socket, right? 01:33:38.100 --> 01:33:41.000 I can attach to that from my, from a different 01:33:41.000 --> 01:33:45.140 location. Is that right? Yes. Okay. Now what 01:33:45.140 --> 01:33:47.340 configuration would I use? Let's say that on 01:33:47.340 --> 01:33:50.079 the server, I just installed minimal new of them 01:33:50.079 --> 01:33:52.220 because I don't have plugins there. I cannot 01:33:52.220 --> 01:33:54.340 install that. I don't want to install plugins 01:33:54.340 --> 01:33:58.199 there. And if I run it or if I attach from my 01:33:58.199 --> 01:34:01.119 local session, do I use my plugins, the ones 01:34:01.119 --> 01:34:04.199 that are, or I use whatever is installed on the 01:34:04.199 --> 01:34:08.220 remote server. um everything currently the the 01:34:08.220 --> 01:34:12.479 model is that the server everything is running 01:34:12.479 --> 01:34:15.020 in the context of the server the ui is just a 01:34:15.020 --> 01:34:19.640 thin um it's just it's only showing a view porch 01:34:19.640 --> 01:34:23.279 it's only a way of like viewing the what's happening 01:34:23.279 --> 01:34:25.600 on the server and that means all file system 01:34:25.600 --> 01:34:29.260 commands everything all all plugins and scripts 01:34:29.260 --> 01:34:33.840 all logic all mappings all input happening on 01:34:33.840 --> 01:34:42.479 the server. It could make sense to explore bifurcating 01:34:42.479 --> 01:34:46.060 that so that some things can happen in the UI, 01:34:46.439 --> 01:34:51.060 but it's something that we're deferring for now 01:34:51.060 --> 01:34:55.180 because it just introduces a lot of opportunity 01:34:55.180 --> 01:35:00.399 for new kinds of things to reason about. Because 01:35:00.399 --> 01:35:03.609 right now, The UI is not running like a full 01:35:03.609 --> 01:35:07.470 instance of NeoVim. It's only running the bare 01:35:07.470 --> 01:35:12.449 minimum parts that need to show a UI. Oh, okay. 01:35:12.649 --> 01:35:15.770 Okay. Awesome. Appreciate it. Is there something 01:35:15.770 --> 01:35:18.010 else that you want to demo? I see a lot of cool 01:35:18.010 --> 01:35:21.590 stuff there on your list. I'll demo the new progress 01:35:21.590 --> 01:35:29.829 feature. So we added... We added an extra flag 01:35:29.829 --> 01:35:36.909 to the Envim Echo API so that you can emit special 01:35:36.909 --> 01:35:39.750 messages called progress messages. And then there's 01:35:39.750 --> 01:35:43.069 more info about that here. And the interesting 01:35:43.069 --> 01:35:47.949 thing about this is that it formalizes the concept 01:35:47.949 --> 01:35:53.569 of having an ongoing task or something. And there's 01:35:53.569 --> 01:35:56.680 some message like holding the current. status 01:35:56.680 --> 01:36:02.199 of that task and the most obvious use case for 01:36:02.199 --> 01:36:04.979 this is just like showing the current percent 01:36:04.979 --> 01:36:08.100 of something that's done or showing like a busy 01:36:08.100 --> 01:36:13.539 indicator somewhere um but you know it's potentially 01:36:13.539 --> 01:36:18.979 useful as uh kind of like i don't know if semaphore 01:36:18.979 --> 01:36:22.640 is the right word but like just uh a piece of 01:36:22.640 --> 01:36:27.359 state that signals to multiple consumers about 01:36:27.359 --> 01:36:34.920 the status of a task. So that was kind of too 01:36:34.920 --> 01:36:42.220 abstract. But in terms of UI, this is obviously 01:36:42.220 --> 01:36:47.060 used a lot in LSP. LSP has the concept of a progress 01:36:47.060 --> 01:36:49.520 event. And right now, we don't really surface 01:36:49.520 --> 01:36:53.979 that. very well, but we should be showing it 01:36:53.979 --> 01:36:57.760 in the default status line, but we don't. But 01:36:57.760 --> 01:37:02.699 this opens the door for also emitting this to 01:37:02.699 --> 01:37:09.539 graphical GUIs or TUIs. And so Ghosty, which 01:37:09.539 --> 01:37:11.800 is the terminal that I'm using, it has support 01:37:11.800 --> 01:37:16.180 for this event. So now if I do this demo, which 01:37:16.180 --> 01:37:22.300 is just running my normal config, My normal config 01:37:22.300 --> 01:37:29.619 has a packed out add call, which is the built 01:37:29.619 --> 01:37:33.420 -in plugin manager. It's installing all of these 01:37:33.420 --> 01:37:39.579 plugins. And our built -in package manager emits 01:37:39.579 --> 01:37:42.579 this progress event. So now if I do the demo 01:37:42.579 --> 01:37:46.619 and I say... Yes, you can see at the top, look 01:37:46.619 --> 01:37:49.460 at the top, there's a blue bar. Oh, okay, okay. 01:37:49.680 --> 01:37:52.300 It's showing the progress. That's built into 01:37:52.300 --> 01:37:56.000 Ghosty because it supports that terminal sequence, 01:37:56.340 --> 01:38:01.340 which we automatically emit. Whenever you use 01:38:01.340 --> 01:38:06.640 this nvim echo progress feature, it automatically 01:38:06.640 --> 01:38:10.899 emits that event, and if your terminal supports 01:38:10.899 --> 01:38:15.340 this, it will show whatever. However, it decides 01:38:15.340 --> 01:38:18.300 to present progress. And by default, you can 01:38:18.300 --> 01:38:21.699 see at the bottom here, we also have our own 01:38:21.699 --> 01:38:26.039 built -in message thing that shows the progress 01:38:26.039 --> 01:38:28.119 in the way that you see at the bottom there with 01:38:28.119 --> 01:38:31.699 the 100%. So even if you don't have a supported 01:38:31.699 --> 01:38:33.539 terminal, you could see it there at the bottom, 01:38:33.640 --> 01:38:37.699 right? Yeah, and we'll probably do some more 01:38:37.699 --> 01:38:41.779 work around there, maybe in the status line or 01:38:41.779 --> 01:38:44.880 something like that. The status line is tricky 01:38:44.880 --> 01:38:47.960 because that's only a solution for anyone using 01:38:47.960 --> 01:38:50.020 the default status line, which seems to be... 01:38:50.020 --> 01:38:52.539 I might be the only person using the default 01:38:52.539 --> 01:38:55.979 status line. I don't know. There's something 01:38:55.979 --> 01:38:57.899 else cool I really want to point out, which is 01:38:57.899 --> 01:39:03.340 that Ghosty has a built -in inspector. This is 01:39:03.340 --> 01:39:06.439 a game changer. This is like Chrome DevTools 01:39:06.439 --> 01:39:09.750 for your terminal. This is going to... single 01:39:09.750 --> 01:39:12.890 -handedly like this single feature of ghosty 01:39:12.890 --> 01:39:16.069 is is going to change it's probably going to 01:39:16.069 --> 01:39:20.770 like double the amount of like it's gonna probably 01:39:20.770 --> 01:39:25.109 gonna quadruple the quality of of terminal applications 01:39:25.109 --> 01:39:28.609 and it might be maybe it'll like also increase 01:39:28.609 --> 01:39:31.689 the number of things that people are making because 01:39:31.689 --> 01:39:35.590 we just didn't have anything like this before 01:39:35.590 --> 01:39:38.750 in any terminal emulator so you can see here 01:39:39.349 --> 01:39:43.310 I can use this picker, and I can click on anything 01:39:43.310 --> 01:39:46.310 in the terminal, and then it gives me information 01:39:46.310 --> 01:39:50.470 about that cell in the terminal. And you can 01:39:50.470 --> 01:39:53.069 also see on the bottom right, it's tracking my 01:39:53.069 --> 01:39:58.590 mouse movement, which is a hint that terminals 01:39:58.590 --> 01:40:03.130 themselves have access to other info, which you 01:40:03.130 --> 01:40:05.029 already knew, because when you do a right -click 01:40:05.029 --> 01:40:07.569 on any of them, you can see that it's tracking 01:40:07.569 --> 01:40:11.399 your... your mouse movement i didn't even know 01:40:11.399 --> 01:40:15.159 that i could right click any of them yeah and 01:40:15.159 --> 01:40:18.359 this is probably because uh i mean this is the 01:40:18.359 --> 01:40:21.539 downside of distress is that they they can obfuscate 01:40:21.539 --> 01:40:24.720 like built -in features oh and how could that 01:40:24.720 --> 01:40:29.340 benefit any of them that uh ghosty what is it 01:40:29.340 --> 01:40:34.659 inspector um because it makes it lowers the cost 01:40:34.659 --> 01:40:37.409 of terminal development Terminal development 01:40:37.409 --> 01:40:41.989 up to now was kind of just imagining how things 01:40:41.989 --> 01:40:46.789 should be, reading the spec, and doing printf 01:40:46.789 --> 01:40:52.090 debugging. So now you have this kind of interactive 01:40:52.090 --> 01:40:59.130 thing. That's a big deal. I guess that's enough 01:40:59.130 --> 01:41:03.210 about Coasty. Let me see, is there anything else? 01:41:04.359 --> 01:41:08.479 That's pretty much it. Probably been quite a 01:41:08.479 --> 01:41:12.880 long time for our viewers. But I do want to mention 01:41:12.880 --> 01:41:16.840 that one of the killer features of Vim is the 01:41:16.840 --> 01:41:20.659 window management. You can do a lot of... It's 01:41:20.659 --> 01:41:23.699 more powerful than probably a lot of window managers. 01:41:24.300 --> 01:41:28.500 Linux, even. Okay, elaborate on that, please. 01:41:28.819 --> 01:41:32.140 I want to know about this. Well, I just created 01:41:32.140 --> 01:41:39.199 six windows here. I have the concept of an alternate 01:41:39.199 --> 01:41:42.899 buffer that I can easily switch to in a given 01:41:42.899 --> 01:41:47.380 window. Actually, do any window managers even 01:41:47.380 --> 01:41:51.800 have that? I wonder. Do they have a stack? Can 01:41:51.800 --> 01:41:59.039 you have a stack of views in a single window? 01:42:01.050 --> 01:42:04.489 You can break out Windows into a new tab. That's 01:42:04.489 --> 01:42:07.409 it. I think people underuse Windows. That's all 01:42:07.409 --> 01:42:11.270 I wanted to mention. Okay. Okay. Awesome. Now, 01:42:11.409 --> 01:42:14.289 what window manager do you use? Do you use any? 01:42:14.369 --> 01:42:17.810 I switched back to our screen. So thank you very 01:42:17.810 --> 01:42:20.369 much for the demo. Pretty interesting. No? I 01:42:20.369 --> 01:42:22.569 don't use window managers. I use the built -in. 01:42:23.770 --> 01:42:27.590 You can make Windows halfway like this. That's 01:42:27.590 --> 01:42:30.840 all I need, if I ever need it. Oh. At the OS 01:42:30.840 --> 01:42:34.699 level? Yeah. Oh, okay, okay. But you don't use 01:42:34.699 --> 01:42:38.760 nothing fancy on macOS, right? Just mainly in 01:42:38.760 --> 01:42:40.800 NeoVim. Do you do all your window management 01:42:40.800 --> 01:42:45.699 in NeoVim then? That's the goal. Oh, okay. If 01:42:45.699 --> 01:42:50.399 you have other GUI apps that you need to see 01:42:50.399 --> 01:42:53.239 side by side, then I would do something like 01:42:53.239 --> 01:42:55.779 this. This is the most I ever do, is just have 01:42:55.779 --> 01:42:59.979 like a half and half like this. Okay. oh i see 01:42:59.979 --> 01:43:03.659 okay yeah yeah i do that sometimes and not too 01:43:03.659 --> 01:43:07.640 much you know because because of real uh estates 01:43:07.640 --> 01:43:10.539 on the screen but sometimes it's useful yeah 01:43:10.539 --> 01:43:14.439 makes sense what is your terminal of choice i 01:43:14.439 --> 01:43:17.119 switch back to our screen i see ghosty there 01:43:17.119 --> 01:43:21.520 but i also posted in the neovim subreddit a few 01:43:21.520 --> 01:43:23.680 months ago maybe i don't remember when about 01:43:23.680 --> 01:43:27.359 the scroll back in kitty right because i can 01:43:27.359 --> 01:43:29.699 access the scroll back open it in neovim you 01:43:29.699 --> 01:43:33.020 recommended me a feature that is only available 01:43:33.020 --> 01:43:37.979 in neovim 0 .12 i'm not yet on neovim 0 .12 but 01:43:37.979 --> 01:43:40.739 how do you know about kitty did you use kitty 01:43:40.739 --> 01:43:43.699 before did you switch to ghost yeah yeah i would 01:43:43.699 --> 01:43:47.090 be using kitty if ghosty didn't exist but the 01:43:47.090 --> 01:43:50.170 terminal inspector is a killer feature i think 01:43:50.170 --> 01:43:53.449 um you know i still have kitty installed which 01:43:53.449 --> 01:43:56.890 is saying something because normally i would 01:43:56.890 --> 01:43:59.630 uninstall something that i don't like and so 01:43:59.630 --> 01:44:03.050 here's the scroll back you can see it's a it's 01:44:03.050 --> 01:44:07.289 a buffer in the oven and how are you doing that 01:44:07.289 --> 01:44:10.449 is gregory i think told me that scroll back is 01:44:10.449 --> 01:44:13.449 not something that's implemented in ghosty yet 01:44:13.449 --> 01:44:16.760 right this isn't kitty oh kitty okay okay okay 01:44:16.760 --> 01:44:21.300 now can you show me the scroll back again are 01:44:21.300 --> 01:44:24.420 you looking at it with colors yeah yeah yeah 01:44:24.420 --> 01:44:28.899 it's uh it works it works and there's a way to 01:44:28.899 --> 01:44:33.300 make it work in uh 0 .11 you just have to um 01:44:33.300 --> 01:44:38.319 if you define this command this just do what 01:44:38.729 --> 01:44:41.750 Yeah, I try to define it, but I think that nvim 01:44:41.750 --> 01:44:44.369 -open -term is not available. I don't remember 01:44:44.369 --> 01:44:47.750 what happens exactly. It is, but it might not 01:44:47.750 --> 01:44:52.149 have this feature where it works on the current 01:44:52.149 --> 01:44:56.109 buffer. I think that might be... I thought that 01:44:56.109 --> 01:44:59.550 was in 0 .11, but maybe I'm wrong. Yeah, because 01:44:59.550 --> 01:45:01.789 I tried it and it didn't work. But if you open 01:45:01.789 --> 01:45:03.989 your scroll back in Kitty, it shows it to you 01:45:03.989 --> 01:45:07.659 in colors. I missed that part. uh yeah yeah watch 01:45:07.659 --> 01:45:11.199 this so i'm going to hit my key map now to open 01:45:11.199 --> 01:45:16.560 this screen itself as scroll back and it looks 01:45:16.560 --> 01:45:20.039 like the same screen but it's not it's actually 01:45:20.039 --> 01:45:23.960 just it's scroll back and you have him awesome 01:45:23.960 --> 01:45:27.939 yeah like even this line here if i said if i 01:45:27.939 --> 01:45:30.060 set it as modifiable i can delete that line see 01:45:30.060 --> 01:45:34.380 and it it's using this is kind of interesting 01:45:34.380 --> 01:45:39.239 um Yeah, it seems like that background highlight 01:45:39.239 --> 01:45:41.500 was stuck there. That might just be a bug, I'm 01:45:41.500 --> 01:45:47.920 not sure. Okay, so you moved over to Ghosty because 01:45:47.920 --> 01:45:50.399 of the inspector and you're staying in Ghosty, 01:45:50.439 --> 01:45:57.720 correct? Yeah, just because it seems to be converging 01:45:57.720 --> 01:46:01.840 more on that idea of a maximally useful unit 01:46:01.840 --> 01:46:06.920 that gets out of my way. Giddy is pretty close 01:46:06.920 --> 01:46:15.000 to that as well, but Ghosty has some slightly 01:46:15.000 --> 01:46:18.819 better integration with Mac OS. I mean, obviously, 01:46:18.960 --> 01:46:21.479 the tabs are one thing, although I don't actually 01:46:21.479 --> 01:46:26.439 care about that, really. But they seem to be 01:46:26.439 --> 01:46:30.100 going in the direction where I expect that they 01:46:30.100 --> 01:46:34.640 will soon have the features that I want. And 01:46:34.640 --> 01:46:38.420 then it'll keep just getting better. But currently 01:46:38.420 --> 01:46:41.119 like it is missing two major things, which is 01:46:41.119 --> 01:46:46.960 one is the scroll back handling and to, um, opening 01:46:46.960 --> 01:46:51.960 files from your file manager, like your, your 01:46:51.960 --> 01:46:55.439 OS file manager. Yeah. Okay. Yep. Like you can't 01:46:55.439 --> 01:46:58.420 easily, I don't think it's even possible. I mean, 01:46:58.460 --> 01:47:02.479 I think Hashimoto claims that it is, but I asked 01:47:02.479 --> 01:47:07.149 him on, Twitter and he didn't reply. So I don't 01:47:07.149 --> 01:47:10.210 know. I could not make it work. I just want to 01:47:10.210 --> 01:47:13.329 double click on a file in a file manager and 01:47:13.329 --> 01:47:17.750 have it open in NeoVim in a new terminal tab. 01:47:18.369 --> 01:47:20.869 That's all I want. Yeah. I don't ever want to 01:47:20.869 --> 01:47:25.170 see VS Code open for a JSON file or whatever. 01:47:25.850 --> 01:47:29.409 What about Neovide? Because you can do it with 01:47:29.409 --> 01:47:32.770 Neovide at the moment. Yeah, that's true. I have 01:47:32.770 --> 01:47:38.569 Neovide, but there were some sharp edges that 01:47:38.569 --> 01:47:42.050 I kept running into with it. But I really want 01:47:42.050 --> 01:47:48.329 Neovide to work well. I'm trying to do what I 01:47:48.329 --> 01:47:52.640 can to drive the right... UI features and RPC 01:47:52.640 --> 01:47:57.319 features in Neovib to support Neovib. I want 01:47:57.319 --> 01:48:01.899 it to work well, but... Okay. But this problem 01:48:01.899 --> 01:48:04.380 will be solved with the feature that you mentioned 01:48:04.380 --> 01:48:08.100 right now, that you can open files from your 01:48:08.100 --> 01:48:12.359 editor into Neovib, right into a session or something 01:48:12.359 --> 01:48:17.430 like that. Well, that's an extra goal that requires 01:48:17.430 --> 01:48:25.909 NeoVim to solve that. But the session thing, 01:48:26.029 --> 01:48:28.649 the existing session, that's just a matter of 01:48:28.649 --> 01:48:32.229 passing the right arguments to NeoVim. But if 01:48:32.229 --> 01:48:36.050 I double -click on Zig, if I double -click on 01:48:36.050 --> 01:48:40.909 this, see, it opens in Kitty in a NeoVim instance. 01:48:40.989 --> 01:48:44.810 That's what I want. because he's not giving me 01:48:44.810 --> 01:48:49.350 this i see they they pretend that it is possible 01:48:49.350 --> 01:48:54.149 and i think they're wrong okay now now that you 01:48:54.149 --> 01:48:57.510 mentioned kitty as well i had an interview with 01:48:57.510 --> 01:49:00.750 kovid uh he's the creator of kitty i watched 01:49:00.750 --> 01:49:03.970 it oh you watched it what are your thoughts because 01:49:03.970 --> 01:49:07.010 i had a bad image and cope it to be honest uh 01:49:07.010 --> 01:49:09.659 because i don't know why you know just videos 01:49:09.659 --> 01:49:11.939 that you watch on the internet and you just follow 01:49:11.939 --> 01:49:15.520 along and and after the interview because of 01:49:15.520 --> 01:49:19.380 his uh his comments on the issue yeah yeah yeah 01:49:19.380 --> 01:49:22.939 yeah exactly because of that but he's not shy 01:49:22.939 --> 01:49:26.399 about um yeah he won't say he won't say he won't 01:49:26.399 --> 01:49:29.039 just say you're wrong but he'll say you should 01:49:29.039 --> 01:49:32.840 feel bad i don't know if that's true i i'm spreading 01:49:32.840 --> 01:49:35.859 this information but like he he's not shy about 01:49:35.859 --> 01:49:41.229 adding a little spice to uh yeah comments but 01:49:41.229 --> 01:49:44.369 if you come think about it right imagine managing 01:49:44.369 --> 01:49:47.029 caliber because that's his main job he lives 01:49:47.029 --> 01:49:50.010 off of open source caliber and it's a huge tool 01:49:50.010 --> 01:49:52.369 it's an amazing tool i haven't used it until 01:49:52.369 --> 01:49:54.989 after that interview my wife used it and she's 01:49:54.989 --> 01:49:58.050 like god damn this tool is wonderful right so 01:49:58.050 --> 01:50:00.890 imagine you maintain caliber your wife was like 01:50:00.890 --> 01:50:04.670 god damn no i'm just uh spreading misinformation 01:50:04.670 --> 01:50:07.229 like you said she didn't do it that way but imagine 01:50:07.229 --> 01:50:09.909 maintaining caliber maintaining kitty yourself 01:50:09.909 --> 01:50:13.630 right man that's a lot of work so i guess imagine 01:50:13.630 --> 01:50:17.390 a lot of issues being opened on on kitty for 01:50:17.390 --> 01:50:19.430 just i'm not the most patient person in the world 01:50:19.430 --> 01:50:26.390 i i i'm amazed that i i'm yeah no i i i have 01:50:26.390 --> 01:50:31.090 no problem with uh abrupt or blunt maintainers 01:50:31.090 --> 01:50:35.989 as long as the parameters are well understood. 01:50:36.649 --> 01:50:41.590 I don't mind being like, okay, I'm just a customer 01:50:41.590 --> 01:50:43.810 at the Soup Nazi. That's a Seinfeld reference. 01:50:44.689 --> 01:50:50.890 It's a very dated Seinfeld reference. As long 01:50:50.890 --> 01:50:53.149 as we all understand the parameters, I don't 01:50:53.149 --> 01:50:56.800 mind dealing with some abruptness. Or even some 01:50:56.800 --> 01:51:00.800 abuse, maybe. As long as my bug is getting fixed. 01:51:02.720 --> 01:51:05.300 You're willing to endure it. I don't think COVID 01:51:05.300 --> 01:51:11.260 is abusive, probably. People have some very high 01:51:11.260 --> 01:51:15.479 expectations. One of the things that a Reddit 01:51:15.479 --> 01:51:19.899 user told me was this very weird interaction 01:51:19.899 --> 01:51:27.920 years ago. There was a Reddit thread and somebody, 01:51:27.939 --> 01:51:31.380 I don't know who, posted something on Reddit. 01:51:31.779 --> 01:51:35.819 And I was enthusiastic about it. I wrote some 01:51:35.819 --> 01:51:37.899 enthusiastic comments. And then someone else 01:51:37.899 --> 01:51:42.340 popped in and said, this whole thread seems fake 01:51:42.340 --> 01:51:47.760 and astroturfed. And what are you doing this 01:51:47.760 --> 01:51:50.420 kind of marketing for? And I'm like, you're wrong. 01:51:51.289 --> 01:51:54.949 that's not what happened here i just am enthusiastic 01:51:54.949 --> 01:51:58.649 about this new feature this guy posted about 01:51:58.649 --> 01:52:01.569 it i'm explaining it i'm not making any money 01:52:01.569 --> 01:52:04.829 off of this like what are you talking about and 01:52:04.829 --> 01:52:08.210 he's like and his response was you should just 01:52:08.210 --> 01:52:10.670 be you should take this as feedback to adjust 01:52:10.670 --> 01:52:13.670 your behavior in the future because this is what 01:52:13.670 --> 01:52:18.310 i perceive as a user so my point is like people 01:52:18.310 --> 01:52:22.960 will do all kinds of backflips And they never 01:52:22.960 --> 01:52:26.420 stop asking for more. They never stop. Their 01:52:26.420 --> 01:52:30.199 expectations are through the roof there, into 01:52:30.199 --> 01:52:33.439 outer space. They think that you should put up 01:52:33.439 --> 01:52:37.079 with anything and then take it as feedback to 01:52:37.079 --> 01:52:40.600 adjust your behavior no matter what the context 01:52:40.600 --> 01:52:48.159 is. So I don't expect that. I mean, obviously, 01:52:48.439 --> 01:52:53.109 if the vibe is off, then I might stop interacting 01:52:53.109 --> 01:52:57.970 on an issue tracker or something. But I think 01:52:57.970 --> 01:53:06.210 I understand COVID. He's a technical guy. If 01:53:06.210 --> 01:53:08.489 it's all technical, then it's no problem. But 01:53:08.489 --> 01:53:11.649 I guess the point of that allegory was people 01:53:11.649 --> 01:53:17.590 don't like his bluntness. They want him to be 01:53:17.590 --> 01:53:20.899 like... constantly just gracious yeah and uh 01:53:20.899 --> 01:53:24.079 infinite patience and all that stuff yeah and 01:53:24.079 --> 01:53:26.460 and we'll get more of that like as we have like 01:53:26.460 --> 01:53:29.399 more of our ai kind of like you know once i have 01:53:29.399 --> 01:53:31.579 like an ai bot that's like representing me it's 01:53:31.579 --> 01:53:34.220 like it will be infinitely patient and then i 01:53:34.220 --> 01:53:37.359 will just have much less i'll have much less 01:53:37.359 --> 01:53:39.680 of that kind of stuff where i have to like bite 01:53:39.680 --> 01:53:42.750 my tongue and just That's a good idea. Pretend 01:53:42.750 --> 01:53:48.090 to be nice and patient with people that don't 01:53:48.090 --> 01:53:51.770 deserve it. Which is not too many people, to 01:53:51.770 --> 01:53:58.119 be honest. I mostly... for the users and their 01:53:58.119 --> 01:54:00.239 patients. There's a few folks out there that 01:54:00.239 --> 01:54:03.140 are confused on how open source works. I come 01:54:03.140 --> 01:54:05.539 to open source and I go to a project and I'm 01:54:05.539 --> 01:54:08.199 thankful mainly, you know, because of the project, 01:54:08.239 --> 01:54:10.479 because people putting their work, you know, 01:54:10.479 --> 01:54:14.500 putting their asses off on a project. for nothing 01:54:14.500 --> 01:54:17.180 in return basically no guarantees no nothing 01:54:17.180 --> 01:54:20.399 just work that they're they're doing so i don't 01:54:20.399 --> 01:54:23.479 expect them to solve my bugs you know i just 01:54:23.479 --> 01:54:27.720 go and ask kindly if someone has the time to 01:54:27.720 --> 01:54:30.739 assist or something you know but you know there's 01:54:30.739 --> 01:54:33.560 people confused out there that demand stuff from 01:54:33.560 --> 01:54:36.140 open source and you shouldn't you just take what 01:54:36.140 --> 01:54:40.000 is out there and just kindly you know ask and 01:54:40.000 --> 01:54:42.960 that's a misconception that's not something right 01:54:42.960 --> 01:54:45.520 with the community not all of the people do that 01:54:45.520 --> 01:54:48.659 but there's a lot that are confused i think is 01:54:48.659 --> 01:54:52.640 the right word i'm not sure yeah you know it's 01:54:52.640 --> 01:54:56.859 uh it's uh these things come in waves and um 01:54:56.859 --> 01:55:01.840 it varies and uh i don't think that users need 01:55:01.840 --> 01:55:04.739 to feel like you know they're not like crying 01:55:04.739 --> 01:55:08.350 at an altar you don't need to like It's fine 01:55:08.350 --> 01:55:11.590 to complain. You don't need to worry about irritating 01:55:11.590 --> 01:55:17.989 the ogres that are maintaining the project. I 01:55:17.989 --> 01:55:22.569 think the expectations can get too high where 01:55:22.569 --> 01:55:25.689 they're just expecting infinite graciousness 01:55:25.689 --> 01:55:29.930 all the time. Because, I don't know, some people 01:55:29.930 --> 01:55:32.470 actually advocate that kind of thing, especially 01:55:32.470 --> 01:55:35.449 on old Twitter. But then, you know, those people 01:55:35.449 --> 01:55:39.770 also... tend to not be around for a long time 01:55:39.770 --> 01:55:42.510 they'll have a project for like a year and they'll 01:55:42.510 --> 01:55:46.510 be like oh i i look at every issue i look at 01:55:46.510 --> 01:55:49.649 every comment as a learning opportunity okay 01:55:49.649 --> 01:55:52.609 well you're going to be doing gigabytes of learning 01:55:52.609 --> 01:55:56.449 because you don't have any you don't have any 01:55:56.449 --> 01:55:59.189 like feed you don't have any like pushback mechanism 01:55:59.189 --> 01:56:02.229 i mean okay you're gonna be drinking from the 01:56:02.229 --> 01:56:05.409 fire hose like your learning opportunities will 01:56:05.409 --> 01:56:09.369 be endless uh -huh good luck but what what they 01:56:09.369 --> 01:56:11.510 actually do is they just quietly like fade away 01:56:11.510 --> 01:56:15.069 and like the project goes dark and they but they're 01:56:15.069 --> 01:56:16.649 missing out on all these learning opportunities 01:56:16.649 --> 01:56:19.550 that they aren't answering on the issue tracker 01:56:19.550 --> 01:56:23.850 yeah yeah and strange the project goes into maintenance 01:56:23.850 --> 01:56:27.550 mode after and yeah that was it a year right 01:56:27.550 --> 01:56:30.529 but it quietly dies i miss out on learning opportunities 01:56:30.529 --> 01:56:33.649 yeah imagine maintaining huge projects for years 01:56:33.649 --> 01:56:36.909 by yourself i would be pissed too right because 01:56:36.909 --> 01:56:40.869 he does the kitty development for his own work 01:56:40.869 --> 01:56:44.100 that's his tool that he uses to work and to develop 01:56:44.100 --> 01:56:47.399 his other stuff, I guess. But I don't know. I 01:56:47.399 --> 01:56:50.380 have a lot of admiration for COVID, you know. 01:56:50.399 --> 01:56:52.520 He has created a lot of different protocols for 01:56:52.520 --> 01:56:55.800 terminals, right? The Qt Graphics protocol. He 01:56:55.800 --> 01:56:58.199 also mentioned other ones that have been adopted 01:56:58.199 --> 01:57:00.859 by NeoVim. Do you have any idea? I don't remember. 01:57:01.140 --> 01:57:03.100 The keyboard protocol. Yeah, we're using his 01:57:03.100 --> 01:57:07.260 keyboard protocol and we will be using the Qt 01:57:07.260 --> 01:57:12.340 image extension, probably. Oh, for images, okay. 01:57:12.560 --> 01:57:16.840 He's also working on the variable font size protocol. 01:57:17.180 --> 01:57:20.560 Have you seen that? Yeah, we'll probably be doing 01:57:20.560 --> 01:57:23.979 that too, yeah. So turning NeoVim into Emacs 01:57:23.979 --> 01:57:27.359 then, pretty much. Well, it needs to stay fast. 01:57:27.880 --> 01:57:31.399 Emacs has struggled with performance. One of 01:57:31.399 --> 01:57:34.300 the reasons was because it has variable font 01:57:34.300 --> 01:57:39.520 height and width, which means there's no grid. 01:57:40.079 --> 01:57:44.079 There's no grid. The grid is more like, I don't 01:57:44.079 --> 01:57:52.739 know, bubbles. Bubble wrap. But that makes the 01:57:52.739 --> 01:57:57.000 line wrap calculations very slow because every 01:57:57.000 --> 01:58:00.420 character can have a different width and height. 01:58:01.079 --> 01:58:06.020 But we probably will only support variable height. 01:58:07.300 --> 01:58:09.779 Supporting variable height shouldn't be... That 01:58:09.779 --> 01:58:12.520 shouldn't hurt performance. Okay, okay, makes 01:58:12.520 --> 01:58:15.020 sense. We've been here for a long time, Justin. 01:58:15.079 --> 01:58:18.039 How much time do you have left? I've been standing 01:58:18.039 --> 01:58:22.640 for two hours and a half of your Sunday. Yeah, 01:58:22.720 --> 01:58:28.640 I don't know. It's more like I have maybe 10 01:58:28.640 --> 01:58:32.050 more minutes, 15 minutes. Okay, okay. Let me 01:58:32.050 --> 01:58:35.609 see what other topics I have here. No, we don't 01:58:35.609 --> 01:58:38.550 have any other super chats at the moment. Let 01:58:38.550 --> 01:58:41.689 me see what other questions I want to ask you. 01:58:42.250 --> 01:58:47.010 Linux, we touched on that. Terminals. Okay, now, 01:58:47.149 --> 01:58:51.350 when NeoVim 0 .12 comes out, when is that happening? 01:58:51.630 --> 01:58:56.930 Do you have any idea? We're aiming for... Well, 01:58:56.970 --> 01:59:01.359 the tentative date was a month. uh december but 01:59:01.359 --> 01:59:04.119 um yeah i don't know if we're gonna hit that 01:59:04.119 --> 01:59:08.859 but this is one of the things that i'm going 01:59:08.859 --> 01:59:12.199 to spend time on next year early next year is 01:59:12.199 --> 01:59:17.239 uh putting into place a few missing kind of like 01:59:17.239 --> 01:59:22.760 project mechanisms for allowing us to to release 01:59:22.760 --> 01:59:25.939 more often the problem is that we don't have 01:59:26.720 --> 01:59:31.899 For some of our interfaces, like say the UI protocol, 01:59:32.279 --> 01:59:36.020 we don't really have clear mechanisms for marking 01:59:36.020 --> 01:59:39.600 those as experimental. People use them, they 01:59:39.600 --> 01:59:43.100 get dependent on them, they get sad if they break, 01:59:43.260 --> 01:59:46.880 and that just kind of adds to the impression 01:59:46.880 --> 01:59:52.979 of chaos. So we need to kind of have a more coherent 01:59:52.979 --> 01:59:56.510 story around avoiding that impression of chaos 01:59:56.510 --> 02:00:00.609 while also being able to release like much more 02:00:00.609 --> 02:00:03.529 often because like this sort of twice a year 02:00:03.529 --> 02:00:06.449 or once a year release thing it actually slows 02:00:06.449 --> 02:00:10.750 everyone down like we have some amazing features 02:00:10.750 --> 02:00:14.390 that probably should be released by now but they 02:00:14.390 --> 02:00:18.670 aren't because there's high risk stuff that still 02:00:18.670 --> 02:00:23.409 hasn't been uh finalized um in other parts uh 02:00:23.409 --> 02:00:30.899 of the system yeah okay okay and um when that 02:00:30.899 --> 02:00:32.840 comes around i don't know if you would like to 02:00:32.840 --> 02:00:35.600 have like a call with maria solano and gregory 02:00:35.600 --> 02:00:39.039 anders and you just show off neovim 0 .12 features 02:00:39.039 --> 02:00:42.899 each one of you sharing with the community and 02:00:42.899 --> 02:00:44.939 all that stuff would be awesome if you if you 02:00:44.939 --> 02:00:47.619 guys want to do that i talked to maria she said 02:00:47.619 --> 02:00:50.380 she's all right i'll talk to greg and see what 02:00:50.380 --> 02:00:53.229 he says if you're good you know Awesome idea. 02:00:53.550 --> 02:00:57.869 Okay. Now, moving on to other topics, the final 02:00:57.869 --> 02:00:59.649 topics, just to get to know you a little bit 02:00:59.649 --> 02:01:02.989 better. Do you have any thoughts on, this might 02:01:02.989 --> 02:01:04.489 be a little bit controversial. You don't have 02:01:04.489 --> 02:01:05.970 to answer if you don't want to, but do you have 02:01:05.970 --> 02:01:10.369 any thoughts on substance, not abuse? Could we 02:01:10.369 --> 02:01:13.130 say abuse? I did a lot of substance abuse in 02:01:13.130 --> 02:01:16.689 the past, you know, a long time ago. But do you 02:01:16.689 --> 02:01:19.670 have any thoughts on drugs, substance consumption, 02:01:19.869 --> 02:01:22.420 we could say? Do you recommend it? Are you in 02:01:22.420 --> 02:01:25.060 favor? Are you against? You don't want to answer? 02:01:25.520 --> 02:01:30.659 I don't really have any... I have some high -minded 02:01:30.659 --> 02:01:37.720 philosophical thoughts on it. I think when I 02:01:37.720 --> 02:01:41.359 see people on fentanyl on the street, I think 02:01:41.359 --> 02:01:44.640 they're probably trying to exit the matrix. I 02:01:44.640 --> 02:01:52.329 think a lot of us... Life is very weird. Probably 02:01:52.329 --> 02:01:55.590 one of those things that rarely ever gets revisited. 02:01:55.590 --> 02:02:01.130 Speaking of yearly OP1s and revisiting the path 02:02:01.130 --> 02:02:05.810 that you're on, very few people learn pretty 02:02:05.810 --> 02:02:08.970 early on in their life to stop asking where the 02:02:08.970 --> 02:02:11.949 universe came from. Because that's just an overwhelming 02:02:11.949 --> 02:02:15.529 thought. And so you have scientists saying, well, 02:02:15.550 --> 02:02:18.569 it came from the Big Bang. yeah that's fine but 02:02:18.569 --> 02:02:23.510 like that still doesn't explain anything really 02:02:23.510 --> 02:02:28.989 like yeah meanwhile life can get very overwhelming 02:02:28.989 --> 02:02:35.210 and probably especially maybe in these times 02:02:35.210 --> 02:02:39.529 i don't know that that that might i think i think 02:02:39.529 --> 02:02:42.310 everyone thinks the time there's probably more 02:02:42.310 --> 02:02:47.920 periods of history than not where you know it's 02:02:47.920 --> 02:02:53.079 the notion that that's a particularly um difficult 02:02:53.079 --> 02:02:58.619 period to live in and before it's probably that's 02:02:58.619 --> 02:03:01.500 probably a pretty common thing to say like in 02:03:01.500 --> 02:03:04.060 every almost every period like i think there's 02:03:04.060 --> 02:03:06.140 been some tranquil periods where maybe people 02:03:06.140 --> 02:03:09.140 realized it was a pretty nice period of time 02:03:09.140 --> 02:03:12.359 to be living in but then like so i don't know 02:03:12.359 --> 02:03:17.260 it's hard to say if this is any more challenging 02:03:17.260 --> 02:03:21.359 of a century than the previous centuries. But 02:03:21.359 --> 02:03:26.460 I think for sure, humanity, humans in general, 02:03:26.539 --> 02:03:29.680 are more ironic than they ever have been, for 02:03:29.680 --> 02:03:32.020 sure. You can tell this just by the types of 02:03:32.020 --> 02:03:36.340 humor that are in sitcoms or television shows. 02:03:36.779 --> 02:03:42.439 It's very subtle now. Or a movie like Inception 02:03:42.439 --> 02:03:47.420 or Severance. this tv show like people in 1900 02:03:47.420 --> 02:03:51.399 would not have even like understood that because 02:03:51.399 --> 02:03:54.600 they hadn't they hadn't ramped up on they hadn't 02:03:54.600 --> 02:03:58.720 been like sort of like acclimated like like gradually 02:03:58.720 --> 02:04:01.619 throughout life to like all these kind of like 02:04:01.619 --> 02:04:06.180 ironic concepts um so that it that that makes 02:04:06.180 --> 02:04:09.699 the case for like this being a different period 02:04:09.699 --> 02:04:13.130 of time where maybe uh Substance abuse seems 02:04:13.130 --> 02:04:16.949 more attractive than normal. Because I get the 02:04:16.949 --> 02:04:21.430 impression that Oscar Wilde was just like, I 02:04:21.430 --> 02:04:23.170 don't think he was doing opium because he was 02:04:23.170 --> 02:04:26.590 depressed. I think it was just a nice, a fun 02:04:26.590 --> 02:04:30.329 thing to do, like drinking or something. I mean, 02:04:30.369 --> 02:04:33.789 I think he probably went overboard and probably 02:04:33.789 --> 02:04:37.350 started to have some issues there and noticed 02:04:37.350 --> 02:04:40.760 that his finances were running low. But, yeah, 02:04:40.920 --> 02:04:43.939 I think I have a feeling that people were doing, 02:04:44.079 --> 02:04:47.640 although you do hear about alcoholics like ages 02:04:47.640 --> 02:04:51.000 ago, but were they doing it because they were 02:04:51.000 --> 02:04:55.279 upset about like the state of the world or like 02:04:55.279 --> 02:04:57.300 they had failed in life or something? Or were 02:04:57.300 --> 02:05:00.560 they just they just accidentally have too much 02:05:00.560 --> 02:05:04.439 fun and it became a habit? That happened to me 02:05:04.439 --> 02:05:07.460 the latter, you know, was having too much fun 02:05:07.460 --> 02:05:11.430 became a habit. destroyed me and i was able to 02:05:11.430 --> 02:05:14.810 get out of it but uh not everyone does but uh 02:05:14.810 --> 02:05:18.369 yeah go on sorry yeah i had a thought about um 02:05:18.369 --> 02:05:23.390 this recently too about like um if you go to 02:05:23.390 --> 02:05:26.369 rehab and then you come back i wonder if it's 02:05:26.369 --> 02:05:28.369 i wonder if this happens also if like you go 02:05:28.369 --> 02:05:30.909 to prison you come back assuming you don't have 02:05:30.909 --> 02:05:34.789 like crushing debt or something or legal problems 02:05:34.789 --> 02:05:38.720 putting those aside the world expects nothing 02:05:38.720 --> 02:05:42.380 of you assuming that is it a state where the 02:05:42.380 --> 02:05:44.060 world expects nothing of you and that actually 02:05:44.060 --> 02:05:47.380 is kind of like a freeing freeing in it like 02:05:47.380 --> 02:05:51.039 a lightness of being allows you to start over 02:05:51.039 --> 02:05:54.760 i'm wondering if that's the case for that kind 02:05:54.760 --> 02:05:58.960 of situation because i i feel like i i would 02:05:58.960 --> 02:06:00.699 love it if the world had like no expectations 02:06:00.699 --> 02:06:05.640 of me you know and maybe that's one way to get 02:06:05.640 --> 02:06:09.140 there is to just like go Down to the depth, but 02:06:09.140 --> 02:06:13.819 also to reset. The footnote is that you got to 02:06:13.819 --> 02:06:17.399 make it up to the bottom. To reset the expectations, 02:06:17.539 --> 02:06:19.800 right? So you go down to the bottom. Is that 02:06:19.800 --> 02:06:22.140 the only way to get people off your back? Like 02:06:22.140 --> 02:06:27.359 stop with all the expectations. That's a good 02:06:27.359 --> 02:06:29.880 point. That's a really good point. We have Sybil 02:06:29.880 --> 02:06:32.520 and Franklin in chat. Have you seen this guy? 02:06:32.899 --> 02:06:36.960 Yeah, I like his channel a lot. Oh yeah? You've 02:06:36.960 --> 02:06:40.439 seen him? He's also a philosophical guy. Yeah. 02:06:41.039 --> 02:06:44.479 He's into Adderall. He's not into Adderall. Apparently, 02:06:44.659 --> 02:06:47.800 he's not in the last few videos, Sylvan. Are 02:06:47.800 --> 02:06:51.000 you still into it or not? Or you haven't decided 02:06:51.000 --> 02:06:53.819 yet? We had a live stream. Let me tell you about 02:06:53.819 --> 02:06:56.579 this. We had a live stream planned. We joined, 02:06:56.600 --> 02:06:58.920 all of us, and he never joined. And I was like, 02:06:59.039 --> 02:07:02.600 Sylvan, are you joining? He never joined. That 02:07:02.600 --> 02:07:05.300 was the day he stopped the Adderall. Yeah, man. 02:07:06.010 --> 02:07:09.630 Crazy, crazy. So we have two super chats. Emma, 02:07:09.750 --> 02:07:12.550 I'm a user. Hello, thanks for all the amazing 02:07:12.550 --> 02:07:15.550 work. I just joined in. So excuse if this was 02:07:15.550 --> 02:07:19.390 already asked. What are the plans for Multicursor, 02:07:19.470 --> 02:07:24.250 Dustin? The plan for Multicursor is I made a 02:07:24.250 --> 02:07:29.250 solemn blood oath to deliver it before the end 02:07:29.250 --> 02:07:33.750 of this year. So I'm going to merge something 02:07:33.750 --> 02:07:37.300 before the end of this year. it'll be we have 02:07:37.300 --> 02:07:40.039 big old experimental label on it so they get 02:07:40.039 --> 02:07:42.659 off your back pretty much basically right well 02:07:42.659 --> 02:07:47.619 also i made a i made a a blood of i can't oh 02:07:47.619 --> 02:07:54.180 you cannot okay i see okay and sylvan saying 02:07:54.180 --> 02:07:56.300 here i love to see this guy getting to express 02:07:56.300 --> 02:07:59.159 his ideas in front of more people doing doing 02:07:59.159 --> 02:08:01.800 good work both of you appreciate the donations 02:08:01.800 --> 02:08:06.710 uh guys no more adderall he says And he got put 02:08:06.710 --> 02:08:09.829 on a psych ward that day. So that's why he didn't 02:08:09.829 --> 02:08:13.210 join the live stream because he was put on a 02:08:13.210 --> 02:08:17.090 psych ward to Arkham City. I joke with him. That's 02:08:17.090 --> 02:08:19.930 an acceptable excuse. Yeah, it is. So I forgave 02:08:19.930 --> 02:08:24.109 him because of that. And I also wanted to ask 02:08:24.109 --> 02:08:26.489 you as well, Justin, last question, because I 02:08:26.489 --> 02:08:28.449 know you've got to run. Do you have any thoughts 02:08:28.449 --> 02:08:32.090 on a supreme being? What are your thoughts on, 02:08:32.090 --> 02:08:34.609 you know? on that. Do you think there's something 02:08:34.609 --> 02:08:38.189 out there with a different shape? I don't know. 02:08:39.189 --> 02:08:42.770 Or there's just Niovim out there. Niovim is the 02:08:42.770 --> 02:08:46.109 god, or the terminal is the god. Niovim is the 02:08:46.109 --> 02:08:55.050 firmament, I think. I mostly have a cop -out 02:08:55.050 --> 02:08:58.619 answer to this because It's too political. It's 02:08:58.619 --> 02:09:02.159 an unsolvable problem. It's just an unsolvable 02:09:02.159 --> 02:09:06.079 problem. And also the answers are mostly unsatisfying. 02:09:06.119 --> 02:09:12.619 I do think the last 20 years have done a good 02:09:12.619 --> 02:09:15.359 job of demonstrating that people need rituals 02:09:15.359 --> 02:09:19.600 of some kind. People need rituals and like scriptures 02:09:19.600 --> 02:09:25.699 or hymns or I don't know, shared something or 02:09:25.699 --> 02:09:29.899 other. um they need uh they need some sort of 02:09:29.899 --> 02:09:34.680 religion um but like regarding god specifically 02:09:34.680 --> 02:09:37.699 like everyone always ends up like choosing some 02:09:37.699 --> 02:09:39.859 sort of religion it's just that it's either like 02:09:39.859 --> 02:09:42.600 an ad hoc like cobbled together sort of like 02:09:42.600 --> 02:09:46.659 you know uh grab bag of ideas which is probably 02:09:46.659 --> 02:09:51.859 where i currently am at or it's uh something 02:09:51.859 --> 02:09:57.819 that has uh that that benefits of the lindy effect 02:09:57.819 --> 02:10:02.399 it's survived over time and um it mostly works 02:10:02.399 --> 02:10:05.800 good enough and it and it has shaken out most 02:10:05.800 --> 02:10:09.439 of its bugs and and there might be you know it 02:10:09.439 --> 02:10:11.979 might have a lot of bugs but they're not like 02:10:11.979 --> 02:10:17.560 fatal bugs um and whereas the you know any kind 02:10:17.560 --> 02:10:19.840 of ad hoc religion that you come up with is probably 02:10:19.840 --> 02:10:22.300 going to have uh it has it who knows how many 02:10:22.300 --> 02:10:25.409 different fatal bugs and it's you don't really 02:10:25.409 --> 02:10:28.770 know because it hasn't uh hasn't been uh washed 02:10:28.770 --> 02:10:32.550 through the the pebbles of time but regarding 02:10:32.550 --> 02:10:35.409 god specifically it's partly a definitional question 02:10:35.409 --> 02:10:37.430 like because when people talk about the big bang 02:10:37.430 --> 02:10:39.850 well they're still talking about something that 02:10:39.850 --> 02:10:43.710 is essentially paranormal or supernatural like 02:10:43.710 --> 02:10:46.850 it's not something you can reason about not something 02:10:46.850 --> 02:10:51.449 you can imagine um And then when people talk 02:10:51.449 --> 02:10:54.050 about, oh, we live in a simulation, it's like 02:10:54.050 --> 02:10:58.050 the most NPC opinion you can have, because you're 02:10:58.050 --> 02:11:02.550 essentially saying that there is also a god above 02:11:02.550 --> 02:11:07.529 the simulation that created the simulation. Such 02:11:07.529 --> 02:11:10.109 an NPC opinion. I want to make it very clear. 02:11:10.250 --> 02:11:14.210 If you say that, you're an NPC. You're literally 02:11:14.210 --> 02:11:17.689 like a shopkeeper saying, welcome to my shop. 02:11:19.500 --> 02:11:23.699 like a video game that uh like you're in like 02:11:23.699 --> 02:11:26.859 the fourth sequel of a video game uh you need 02:11:26.859 --> 02:11:32.140 to hit rock bottom to believe there's a god uh 02:11:32.140 --> 02:11:34.960 there's people that don't hit hit rock bottom 02:11:34.960 --> 02:11:37.000 right they just believe in god because they were 02:11:37.000 --> 02:11:42.500 told that way but uh you think that's a big factor 02:11:42.500 --> 02:11:46.680 into making people think there's something out 02:11:46.680 --> 02:11:48.890 there I think having near -death experiences 02:11:48.890 --> 02:11:54.430 is helpful for getting some relationship with 02:11:54.430 --> 02:12:00.470 God. Yeah, but Christopher Hitchens was pretty 02:12:00.470 --> 02:12:06.409 famously stalwart. Even on his deathbed, he was 02:12:06.409 --> 02:12:11.970 an unwaveringly atheist. A pretty smart and thoughtful 02:12:11.970 --> 02:12:14.869 guy. I bet if he had stuck around another 10 02:12:14.869 --> 02:12:18.729 years, then... I wonder if his opinion would 02:12:18.729 --> 02:12:22.630 have changed. There's a lot of good discussion 02:12:22.630 --> 02:12:26.210 going on in the world. Some new ideas. Every 02:12:26.210 --> 02:12:28.869 now and then I used to think that there weren't 02:12:28.869 --> 02:12:31.590 any new ideas, but I'm seeing some pretty interesting 02:12:31.590 --> 02:12:36.029 ideas still. And I don't think they'll stop. 02:12:36.449 --> 02:12:39.909 Yeah, okay. Now, final. No, this is the final, 02:12:39.949 --> 02:12:42.180 final one. Are there two movies that you want 02:12:42.180 --> 02:12:44.039 to recommend? What are your two favorite movies? 02:12:44.239 --> 02:12:47.279 Which ones would you say? Do you have any in 02:12:47.279 --> 02:12:50.319 mind? I like Blade Runner. I don't know if that's 02:12:50.319 --> 02:12:56.819 an NPC answer, but that movie speaks to me. Blade 02:12:56.819 --> 02:13:01.880 Runner. Yeah, Blade Runner. Let's see, this one? 02:13:02.039 --> 02:13:05.989 The original, the sequel is horrible. And the 02:13:05.989 --> 02:13:09.090 sequel was very, we got good reviews from the 02:13:09.090 --> 02:13:11.369 audience. Oh, this one. Those people are wrong. 02:13:12.090 --> 02:13:15.850 1982? Yeah, yeah. I haven't watched it. Okay, 02:13:16.010 --> 02:13:19.390 but good to know. Keep it in mind. Yeah. That 02:13:19.390 --> 02:13:22.710 one actually kind of touches on a lot of the 02:13:22.710 --> 02:13:25.829 current sort of epistemological questions of 02:13:25.829 --> 02:13:30.470 AI and the nature of consciousness and humanity 02:13:30.470 --> 02:13:34.720 and all that stuff. Yeah, I don't watch many 02:13:34.720 --> 02:13:38.340 movies these days, but that's the first one that 02:13:38.340 --> 02:13:41.199 popped into my mind. Okay. Know any other one 02:13:41.199 --> 02:13:46.340 that comes to mind then? Apocalypse Now. Apocalypse 02:13:46.340 --> 02:13:50.500 Now. I've heard about that one. Hold on. Let 02:13:50.500 --> 02:13:54.880 me see. Oh, okay. The guy, Dina, recommended 02:13:54.880 --> 02:13:57.909 this. I actually... Because this is the father 02:13:57.909 --> 02:14:01.050 of Charlie Sheen, right? This guy, the one that 02:14:01.050 --> 02:14:04.529 produced it. And he acts on that movie, right? 02:14:04.630 --> 02:14:07.109 Did you watch Benny Chance, the Charlie Sheen's 02:14:07.109 --> 02:14:12.989 documentary on Netflix? No? No. He talked about 02:14:12.989 --> 02:14:16.590 this movie and that he was there when his father 02:14:16.590 --> 02:14:19.590 was doing it and all that stuff. Yeah, but Dina, 02:14:19.829 --> 02:14:23.590 the Ovi Wright guy, also recommended this movie. 02:14:23.930 --> 02:14:27.199 I think I'll have to watch it. Yeah. I'm also 02:14:27.199 --> 02:14:31.819 a big fan of the book. I have a draft of a screenplay 02:14:31.819 --> 02:14:38.460 that's kind of like an adaptation of the book 02:14:38.460 --> 02:14:44.180 to Afghanistan, the Afghanistan war. I'm amazed 02:14:44.180 --> 02:14:47.039 that no one has made this yet. It's such an obvious 02:14:47.039 --> 02:14:51.260 this needs to be made. The Afghanistan war is 02:14:51.260 --> 02:14:54.069 like... It's like the Vietnam War on steroids. 02:14:54.689 --> 02:15:03.229 On steroids. In all the wrong ways. We need Chuck 02:15:03.229 --> 02:15:09.869 Norris there, right? It's not really a humorous 02:15:09.869 --> 02:15:18.810 movie. Any final thoughts? Oh, just, man, I keep 02:15:18.810 --> 02:15:21.369 saying final, final, final. No, but. what is 02:15:21.369 --> 02:15:24.609 the best way to support new vim is it through 02:15:24.609 --> 02:15:27.729 hold on my microphone is acting up is it through 02:15:27.729 --> 02:15:32.090 donations or what is the best way to monetarily 02:15:32.090 --> 02:15:37.250 support new vim yeah the the donations go 100 02:15:37.250 --> 02:15:42.850 to development work we don't use it for made 02:15:42.850 --> 02:15:46.149 up administrative costs or anything like that 02:15:46.149 --> 02:15:51.090 i mean When someone can work on it full -time, 02:15:51.250 --> 02:15:55.569 we pay them from the donations to work on Neovent 02:15:55.569 --> 02:15:59.710 full -time, and one of the outcomes of that is 02:15:59.710 --> 02:16:06.409 what I call UI2, or it's also called the re -implementation 02:16:06.409 --> 02:16:09.229 of the messaging interface, which I forgot to 02:16:09.229 --> 02:16:14.770 demo in Neovent 0 .12. A contributor named Luke, 02:16:14.930 --> 02:16:18.560 L -U -U -K, worked on that. and so that was one 02:16:18.560 --> 02:16:21.840 use of the donations but uh it's gone to many 02:16:21.840 --> 02:16:25.760 other purposes and uh yeah but being able to 02:16:25.760 --> 02:16:29.100 do deep work gets good results and you can't 02:16:29.100 --> 02:16:30.659 you can't always do these things on nights and 02:16:30.659 --> 02:16:33.020 weekends especially the the really deep things 02:16:33.020 --> 02:16:36.379 and that was a deep change and where should people 02:16:36.379 --> 02:16:39.860 go to donate like to the github page or what's 02:16:39.860 --> 02:16:43.059 the best where's the best place they all redirect 02:16:43.059 --> 02:16:46.299 the same thing so if you go to neoflim .io then 02:16:47.069 --> 02:16:51.149 You can click on, I think... Let me go here. 02:16:51.610 --> 02:16:55.409 Well, the footer on the front page has a link 02:16:55.409 --> 02:16:58.870 to our sponsors, but actually we need to do a 02:16:58.870 --> 02:17:04.469 better job of, I think, linking to it. So here 02:17:04.469 --> 02:17:07.329 in sponsors, right? Yeah, if you click on that 02:17:07.329 --> 02:17:12.549 campaign link, it goes to that. So this is one 02:17:12.549 --> 02:17:15.989 way. This goes to our Open Collective account. 02:17:16.729 --> 02:17:19.850 okay you can also just go directly to open collective 02:17:19.850 --> 02:17:23.510 but a while ago github was matching donations 02:17:23.510 --> 02:17:25.389 i don't know if they do that anymore they probably 02:17:25.389 --> 02:17:32.930 don't okay okay any thoughts on corporate sponsorship 02:17:32.930 --> 02:17:36.190 like would it benefit new of them let's say that 02:17:36.190 --> 02:17:40.850 a big company would say hey um There's this amount 02:17:40.850 --> 02:17:43.549 of money that we would like you to have just 02:17:43.549 --> 02:17:45.989 for supporting Neovim so you can create new features. 02:17:46.250 --> 02:17:50.170 What are your thoughts on corporate sponsorships? 02:17:50.170 --> 02:17:53.989 Are they eyes that you don't want to get into? 02:17:54.069 --> 02:17:55.709 You don't care? Do you have any thoughts on that? 02:17:55.870 --> 02:17:57.870 Would it be nice? Yeah, I mean, it depends on 02:17:57.870 --> 02:18:01.389 the arrangement, but we do have corporate sponsors. 02:18:01.530 --> 02:18:06.049 Meta gave us $10 ,000 two years in a row. That's 02:18:06.049 --> 02:18:10.159 very appreciated. And also our sponsors. on our 02:18:10.159 --> 02:18:14.079 homepage. Um, I guess they count as corporate 02:18:14.079 --> 02:18:15.680 sponsors, although I think they're more like 02:18:15.680 --> 02:18:20.579 startups, but, uh, I think we would be eager 02:18:20.579 --> 02:18:23.620 to consider something like that unless, you know, 02:18:23.620 --> 02:18:26.420 there were some weird terms and conditions, but 02:18:26.420 --> 02:18:29.799 I don't know. Everyone has a price. And ultimately 02:18:29.799 --> 02:18:33.540 the only thing like, as long as what comes out 02:18:33.540 --> 02:18:38.350 of it is like open source code that makes neovim 02:18:38.350 --> 02:18:41.729 more useful i i don't think it would be bad like 02:18:41.729 --> 02:18:45.670 unless they asked us to add telemetry or or something 02:18:45.670 --> 02:18:50.850 like inside of neovim like we we for example 02:18:50.850 --> 02:18:54.110 have the work terminal the work terminal that 02:18:54.110 --> 02:18:58.110 require you to sign in yeah we have rejected 02:18:58.110 --> 02:19:03.209 offers to add logos to our readme just because 02:19:03.209 --> 02:19:06.819 it makes the readme look cringe We don't want 02:19:06.819 --> 02:19:11.520 our readme to look cringe. So we do that on our 02:19:11.520 --> 02:19:14.680 website where it doesn't look cringe. It looks 02:19:14.680 --> 02:19:19.500 sweet. So we do it there. But we don't put it 02:19:19.500 --> 02:19:22.399 on our readme that's pretty just tacky when people 02:19:22.399 --> 02:19:26.540 do that. We don't do that. So we also would not 02:19:26.540 --> 02:19:31.520 do ads inside of NeoVim unless it's like... a 02:19:31.520 --> 02:19:34.979 lot of money then maybe but like i don't think 02:19:34.979 --> 02:19:38.180 i don't think the ad space in neovim is worth 02:19:38.180 --> 02:19:42.239 10 million or 100 million dollars to anybody 02:19:42.239 --> 02:19:45.700 so i don't think there's a risk of that but like 02:19:45.700 --> 02:19:48.860 but consider like imagine that that did happen 02:19:48.860 --> 02:19:53.200 as a user hold on a second that means we can 02:19:53.200 --> 02:19:56.440 now fund like 10 full -time developers like we 02:19:56.440 --> 02:19:58.420 could just take the whole core team and say guys 02:19:58.420 --> 02:20:01.649 we're gonna work on neovim for like A few years, 02:20:01.770 --> 02:20:03.649 just like full -time. Doesn't that sound good? 02:20:03.770 --> 02:20:06.389 It sounds pretty good. I don't have a good result. 02:20:06.549 --> 02:20:09.430 And yes, we have to show a little ad on the intro 02:20:09.430 --> 02:20:11.430 page. That sounds like a good trade -off to me. 02:20:11.610 --> 02:20:13.909 As long as it's not like a pop -up that pops 02:20:13.909 --> 02:20:18.809 up when you're editing your config or something. 02:20:19.290 --> 02:20:22.090 Now, let me ask you a question. Would you like 02:20:22.090 --> 02:20:24.629 to have the ability to stop working at Amazon? 02:20:24.729 --> 02:20:27.309 I hope your employer doesn't watch this and that 02:20:27.309 --> 02:20:29.680 they don't care. Would you like to have the ability 02:20:29.680 --> 02:20:32.379 to stop working there and dedicate full -time 02:20:32.379 --> 02:20:34.000 to Neovim? Yes, I hope they are watching this. 02:20:34.219 --> 02:20:39.719 Give me a layoff. Give me a severance offer and 02:20:39.719 --> 02:20:43.340 I will take it. I'm tired of it. So would you 02:20:43.340 --> 02:20:46.200 like to dedicate full -time to Neovim if open 02:20:46.200 --> 02:20:49.059 source was different? If people actually supported 02:20:49.059 --> 02:20:52.540 open source projects, would you like to live 02:20:52.540 --> 02:20:57.719 off of open source if possible? There's like, 02:20:58.040 --> 02:21:02.540 there are like certain things I want to accomplish 02:21:02.540 --> 02:21:06.739 with it. And I would take, you know, some part 02:21:06.739 --> 02:21:10.780 of a year out of my life to try to get these 02:21:10.780 --> 02:21:14.899 things over the fence and then see where it goes 02:21:14.899 --> 02:21:17.559 from there. Something that I have not done a 02:21:17.559 --> 02:21:22.879 good enough job on is like finding kind of more 02:21:22.879 --> 02:21:26.100 ways to fund the project, like maybe through, 02:21:26.699 --> 02:21:29.979 I don't know, having like an official taxable 02:21:29.979 --> 02:21:32.420 entity or something like that. That requires 02:21:32.420 --> 02:21:35.440 lawyers and it requires paperwork. And it's just 02:21:35.440 --> 02:21:38.680 something I haven't done. That's a miss from 02:21:38.680 --> 02:21:42.860 me. Okay. As they would say at Amazon. Okay. 02:21:43.059 --> 02:21:45.579 Hey, Justin, really appreciate all your time. 02:21:45.639 --> 02:21:48.040 And we've been here for three hours. Just the 02:21:48.040 --> 02:21:49.899 last thing that I want to say, just want to thank 02:21:49.899 --> 02:21:52.719 the CEO because I have. People that support me 02:21:52.719 --> 02:21:56.100 as well that subscribe to my memberships. There's 02:21:56.100 --> 02:21:59.299 a guy that pays $50 a month. I'm ripping him 02:21:59.299 --> 02:22:01.819 off. I feel like I'm like, I don't deserve it, 02:22:01.879 --> 02:22:05.100 but he still does it. It's web23 .com. Appreciate 02:22:05.100 --> 02:22:08.239 it. All of the other members. Thanks to you, 02:22:08.299 --> 02:22:12.180 Justin, for your time, man. Really, really appreciate 02:22:12.180 --> 02:22:15.000 it. I'm going to edit this video. And I'm going 02:22:15.000 --> 02:22:18.479 to post it. This is going to go unlisted now, 02:22:18.559 --> 02:22:20.840 so people won't be able to watch it. There are 02:22:20.840 --> 02:22:23.379 some folks going to come and say, oh, and it's 02:22:23.379 --> 02:22:26.579 now behind the paywall. And no, man, I'm just 02:22:26.579 --> 02:22:29.639 going to unlist it and I'm going to edit it. 02:22:29.680 --> 02:22:32.500 And then I'm going to post it probably this coming 02:22:32.500 --> 02:22:36.000 Friday, today, Sunday. Yeah, Friday is live. 02:22:36.569 --> 02:22:39.170 work and all that stuff gets in the way so by 02:22:39.170 --> 02:22:42.010 friday i'll have it posted it's gonna be available 02:22:42.010 --> 02:22:45.049 as a podcast as well in spotify and all those 02:22:45.049 --> 02:22:48.250 things so really appreciate it any final words 02:22:48.250 --> 02:22:51.709 no thank you for having me and uh thank you to 02:22:51.709 --> 02:22:55.989 everyone who watched and sponsored this video 02:22:55.989 --> 02:22:59.329 appreciate it thanks chat thanks justin see you 02:22:59.329 --> 02:23:00.629 bye -bye bye