WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.180 if someone wants to use lazy or whatever i am 00:00:02.180 --> 00:00:04.799 again this is like do whatever you want i'm not 00:00:04.799 --> 00:00:06.839 the boss i'm not like your editor mom or dad 00:00:06.839 --> 00:00:08.960 right like i'm not going to come like knocking 00:00:08.960 --> 00:00:11.000 on your door saying how dare like so people will 00:00:11.000 --> 00:00:13.259 do is they'll say okay local foo equals require 00:00:13.259 --> 00:00:18.859 my plugin dot sub module dot foo right and i 00:00:18.859 --> 00:00:21.719 understand people do this because this is if 00:00:21.719 --> 00:00:27.429 you're writing like rust or or JavaScript, right? 00:00:27.510 --> 00:00:29.750 This is what you do. You import modules at the 00:00:29.750 --> 00:00:32.409 top levels that you can refer to them by a shorthand 00:00:32.409 --> 00:00:34.729 in your function. But in Lua, what this does 00:00:34.729 --> 00:00:38.469 is that when your code is executed, you are calling 00:00:38.469 --> 00:00:41.530 this require here as soon as the script is executed. 00:00:41.710 --> 00:00:44.390 It's not happening when you call doStuff. It's 00:00:44.390 --> 00:00:48.789 happening when the file is loaded. So this is 00:00:48.789 --> 00:00:52.070 an area, this is, I think, one reason that this 00:00:52.070 --> 00:00:54.250 has been more of a problem in Lua is just because 00:00:54.859 --> 00:00:56.780 People naturally want to do this pattern. And 00:00:56.780 --> 00:01:01.000 again, I understand why. But that ends up hurting 00:01:01.000 --> 00:01:03.960 the lazy loading, right? Because you're not lazy 00:01:03.960 --> 00:01:05.980 loading it now. You're loading it up front instead 00:01:05.980 --> 00:01:07.859 of on demand. If you're listening to this as 00:01:07.859 --> 00:01:10.000 a podcast, remember that it was originally recorded 00:01:10.000 --> 00:01:12.099 as a video. If you're not following along, you 00:01:12.099 --> 00:01:13.900 can go to my YouTube channel. My username is 00:01:13.900 --> 00:01:15.900 Linkarzu. And if you want to support me to keep 00:01:15.900 --> 00:01:18.159 this podcast going, you can donate in Ko -fi. 00:01:18.280 --> 00:01:19.640 I'm going to leave a link in the description. 00:01:19.939 --> 00:01:21.799 All right? So let's get started with this chapter 00:01:21.799 --> 00:01:26.930 then. Hey, Greg. How's it going? Hey, Christian. 00:01:27.189 --> 00:01:30.310 Good. Glad to be here. Yeah, second time you're 00:01:30.310 --> 00:01:32.930 in the channel. The previous time was with TJ, 00:01:33.209 --> 00:01:40.329 CT, and Josh. Yeah, the new event for CMAX. That 00:01:40.329 --> 00:01:44.310 was a good time. Yeah, they actually had a call 00:01:44.310 --> 00:01:49.849 with an EMAX power user, I would say, or contributor. 00:01:50.409 --> 00:01:54.129 His name is Brot. Everyone talks about Proud. 00:01:54.189 --> 00:01:57.650 Have you heard about him by any chance? No? I'm 00:01:57.650 --> 00:01:59.590 not super tuned into the Emacs world, though. 00:01:59.930 --> 00:02:04.150 No? Yeah. Pretty interesting conversation. So 00:02:04.150 --> 00:02:07.790 really appreciate that you're here, Greg. Thank 00:02:07.790 --> 00:02:10.270 you very much for your time. It's Friday. What 00:02:10.270 --> 00:02:13.050 time is it where you're at, by the way? It's 00:02:13.050 --> 00:02:16.090 6 p .m. I'm in central time in the U .S. Oh, 00:02:16.110 --> 00:02:19.949 okay. So the reason we're doing this call is 00:02:19.949 --> 00:02:23.849 just to get to know Greg's... workflow and talk 00:02:23.849 --> 00:02:28.990 about neovim ghosty a lot of other other topics 00:02:28.990 --> 00:02:32.370 okay so just to give a little bit of context 00:02:32.370 --> 00:02:36.530 would you mind sharing who you are like are you 00:02:36.530 --> 00:02:39.009 a neovim maintainer ghosty maintainer just hear 00:02:39.009 --> 00:02:44.409 about you overall sure um i'm i'm greg i go by 00:02:44.409 --> 00:02:47.810 gp anders online a common misconception is that 00:02:47.810 --> 00:02:51.500 my last name is actually anders not anders I 00:02:51.500 --> 00:02:54.460 have the P in there as my middle initial. The 00:02:54.460 --> 00:02:56.259 reason for that, actually, is because back in 00:02:56.259 --> 00:03:00.000 2015, circa 2015, when I was trying to buy a 00:03:00.000 --> 00:03:03.060 domain name, I, of course, looked for ganders 00:03:03.060 --> 00:03:06.759 .com first, and it was taken. But GP Anders was 00:03:06.759 --> 00:03:09.400 available, so I just took it, and I've been GP 00:03:09.400 --> 00:03:12.740 Anders ever since. So your last name is Anders, 00:03:13.000 --> 00:03:16.139 right? Yeah. Okay. That's right. Okay. People 00:03:16.139 --> 00:03:19.560 think it's Panders. yeah yeah on uh we have like 00:03:19.560 --> 00:03:23.639 a little you know neo them chat uh where like 00:03:23.639 --> 00:03:26.280 the maintainers and some contributors hang out 00:03:26.280 --> 00:03:30.539 online and my nickname on there is panders or 00:03:30.539 --> 00:03:34.419 just people cases soon that's my last name um 00:03:34.419 --> 00:03:37.680 anyway the i guess most of your watchers would 00:03:37.680 --> 00:03:40.360 probably if they know me would know me as uh 00:03:40.360 --> 00:03:43.639 as a new core maintainer the role that i've had 00:03:43.639 --> 00:03:49.180 for almost four years since late 2021 or so. 00:03:50.599 --> 00:03:54.460 My contributions in NeoVim are pretty broad and 00:03:54.460 --> 00:03:57.340 have varied over time in terms of how active 00:03:57.340 --> 00:03:59.819 I've been. But I've worked on everything from 00:03:59.819 --> 00:04:04.759 the LSP client, tree sitter improvements, to 00:04:04.759 --> 00:04:07.460 kind of some small features like editor config 00:04:07.460 --> 00:04:11.500 integration. One thing that I'm particularly 00:04:11.500 --> 00:04:15.580 really proud of is the new file type implementation 00:04:15.580 --> 00:04:19.300 was something that I helped contribute to originally 00:04:19.300 --> 00:04:22.839 the project local configuration that NeoVim has 00:04:22.839 --> 00:04:24.259 now. We can talk about that actually later because 00:04:24.259 --> 00:04:26.600 I think that's kind of an interesting, semi -interesting 00:04:26.600 --> 00:04:32.220 story, but allowing you to have XRC files, what 00:04:32.220 --> 00:04:34.019 they're called. It's like files within a project 00:04:34.019 --> 00:04:39.060 that you can run in a secure way. Yeah, but kind 00:04:39.060 --> 00:04:41.180 of all over. But my biggest area of focus, though, 00:04:41.240 --> 00:04:42.939 I guess, in NeoVim is kind of in the terminal 00:04:42.939 --> 00:04:45.480 area. So both NeoVim is a better terminal. And 00:04:45.480 --> 00:04:48.560 then the fact that NeoVim itself doesn't have 00:04:48.560 --> 00:04:52.240 to be, but often is, a 2E application, an application 00:04:52.240 --> 00:04:56.980 that runs in the terminal. So we have to understand 00:04:56.980 --> 00:05:00.959 the terminal as an ecosystem, or excuse me, as 00:05:00.959 --> 00:05:03.939 a platform, and what features we have available 00:05:03.939 --> 00:05:05.639 and how we can take advantage of those. So those 00:05:05.639 --> 00:05:08.660 have been... That's the area that I enjoy contributing 00:05:08.660 --> 00:05:11.639 most and I think I've spent the most time contributing 00:05:11.639 --> 00:05:15.839 to over the last couple years. Okay, and on the 00:05:15.839 --> 00:05:18.680 ghosty side? The ghosty side, yeah. I joined 00:05:18.680 --> 00:05:25.620 the ghosty beta back in 2023, I want to say. 00:05:25.779 --> 00:05:30.279 It was relatively early stages then. I will totally 00:05:30.279 --> 00:05:31.879 admit I was shameless about it. I joined the 00:05:31.879 --> 00:05:34.139 Discord and said, hey, I'm a NeoVim contributor. 00:05:34.500 --> 00:05:37.759 I would love to try ghosty. And Mitchell used 00:05:37.759 --> 00:05:41.399 the power. I did. I don't do that often. And 00:05:41.399 --> 00:05:43.639 to be honest, there's not many scenarios in life 00:05:43.639 --> 00:05:45.939 where any of them gets me a ticket into anything. 00:05:46.060 --> 00:05:49.000 Right. So this was one of the only possibly the 00:05:49.000 --> 00:05:52.199 only time that will ever happen. But Mitchell 00:05:52.199 --> 00:05:57.680 is a new user. And so he let me invite. And at 00:05:57.680 --> 00:06:00.699 the time, there was still a lot of low hanging 00:06:00.699 --> 00:06:02.759 fruit in terms of features and things that needed 00:06:02.759 --> 00:06:06.220 to get done. And so I just started sending PRs. 00:06:06.480 --> 00:06:10.199 And for a very brief period, I was one of the 00:06:10.199 --> 00:06:13.579 top three contributors, although my activity 00:06:13.579 --> 00:06:17.019 in the past year has declined substantially. 00:06:17.439 --> 00:06:21.459 I still hang out in the Discord and try to be 00:06:21.459 --> 00:06:24.459 useful where I can, but I've definitely kind 00:06:24.459 --> 00:06:29.079 of taken a backseat there. Okay. And how did 00:06:29.079 --> 00:06:30.819 you get started with all this? Would you mind 00:06:30.819 --> 00:06:33.449 sharing a little bit about your background? Did 00:06:33.449 --> 00:06:36.269 you start with computers early in life? Did you 00:06:36.269 --> 00:06:40.670 go to school and it was computer oriented? Or 00:06:40.670 --> 00:06:46.110 how did your love for what IT overall started? 00:06:48.550 --> 00:06:52.029 Computers in general, I was a child of the 90s 00:06:52.029 --> 00:06:54.430 and early aughts. My brother and I played a ton 00:06:54.430 --> 00:06:56.810 of video games. So we were familiar with computers 00:06:56.810 --> 00:06:59.589 in that sense. We were the family technicians, 00:06:59.750 --> 00:07:03.110 right? DVD player won't start. I mean, I'm old 00:07:03.110 --> 00:07:05.589 enough to where the VHS player is working, right? 00:07:05.769 --> 00:07:09.670 How do we hook that stuff up? That's more like 00:07:09.670 --> 00:07:11.509 electronics, I guess, and not much computers. 00:07:11.850 --> 00:07:14.430 My first experience to actual computer programming 00:07:14.430 --> 00:07:17.470 was when I was a teenager, and I was really at 00:07:17.470 --> 00:07:20.569 the time into World of Warcraft. And one thing 00:07:20.569 --> 00:07:27.269 you can do in WoW is write these UI mods to affect 00:07:27.269 --> 00:07:29.970 the way that the user interface looks and stuff. 00:07:30.700 --> 00:07:33.560 And that's all done in Lua, which is kind of 00:07:33.560 --> 00:07:39.079 funny now. I didn't write a lot of Lua from U 00:07:39.079 --> 00:07:41.639 of M now. So I started writing these UI mods 00:07:41.639 --> 00:07:44.579 for World of Warcraft, and that was the first 00:07:44.579 --> 00:07:48.540 code I ever wrote. So Lua was my very first language, 00:07:48.699 --> 00:07:51.180 which is kind of funny now in hindsight. But 00:07:51.180 --> 00:07:53.339 after that, I didn't study computer science in 00:07:53.339 --> 00:07:55.339 school. I majored in electrical engineering. 00:07:57.230 --> 00:07:59.449 I think we had one semester of programming in 00:07:59.449 --> 00:08:05.310 C++, but I went through all of my undergrad not 00:08:05.310 --> 00:08:08.149 expecting to be a programmer. I didn't think 00:08:08.149 --> 00:08:10.009 of myself as a programmer or as a software engineer. 00:08:10.430 --> 00:08:12.209 I didn't really know what I wanted to do. I just 00:08:12.209 --> 00:08:13.769 figured I would do something in engineering, 00:08:13.889 --> 00:08:16.610 but I wasn't sure what that would be. And then 00:08:16.610 --> 00:08:21.110 when I graduated, I don't really understand how 00:08:21.110 --> 00:08:23.029 this happened, but I interviewed this company 00:08:23.029 --> 00:08:25.050 that was like a technology consulting firm, and 00:08:25.050 --> 00:08:29.620 they did a bunch of Web development stuff. And 00:08:29.620 --> 00:08:32.299 I got hired there. So I remember actually in 00:08:32.299 --> 00:08:37.399 my technical interview, the interviewer asked 00:08:37.399 --> 00:08:40.379 me how well I knew JavaScript. And I told him 00:08:40.379 --> 00:08:44.639 that I had done a little bit of Java in school. 00:08:45.299 --> 00:08:48.580 Is that the same thing? Or is that similar? Which 00:08:48.580 --> 00:08:51.000 obviously anyone who knows about those languages, 00:08:51.139 --> 00:08:53.600 that's laughable to even ask that. But that's 00:08:53.600 --> 00:08:55.519 the level where I was when I interviewed here. 00:08:56.139 --> 00:08:58.000 But I guess I did it well enough in my other 00:08:58.000 --> 00:08:59.720 interviews that they figured, okay, this guy 00:08:59.720 --> 00:09:03.259 can learn on the job, and they hired me. So I 00:09:03.259 --> 00:09:05.679 went to Code Academy and a bunch of that stuff 00:09:05.679 --> 00:09:08.860 and learned JavaScript and HTML and CSS and stuff. 00:09:09.399 --> 00:09:14.100 So yeah, that was my first job in 2015. I was 00:09:14.100 --> 00:09:18.000 22 years old. I was writing Java. It was very 00:09:18.000 --> 00:09:23.080 enterprise web stuff. So Java... Java Spring 00:09:23.080 --> 00:09:26.700 on the back end. The front end was JavaScript 00:09:26.700 --> 00:09:31.879 pages, JSPs, which is such a gross old technology. 00:09:32.799 --> 00:09:36.320 At the time, the hot new thing was Angular. Angular 00:09:36.320 --> 00:09:39.159 1 was the cool thing that the cool kids were 00:09:39.159 --> 00:09:41.200 doing. React wasn't even a thing at the time. 00:09:43.120 --> 00:09:46.960 So I did that for about a year, and it took me 00:09:46.960 --> 00:09:49.179 about that long to realize that that's not what 00:09:49.179 --> 00:09:52.919 I wanted to do. So I left that job and went and 00:09:52.919 --> 00:09:56.120 got a master's degree in aerospace engineering 00:09:56.120 --> 00:10:00.220 as a way to kind of thinking at the time, okay, 00:10:00.299 --> 00:10:02.899 I want to go work for like SpaceX or NASA or 00:10:02.899 --> 00:10:04.480 something, right? Like that was like the dream 00:10:04.480 --> 00:10:08.039 job. Since we're swapping embarrassing interview 00:10:08.039 --> 00:10:11.899 stories, before I went to grad school, I tried 00:10:11.899 --> 00:10:14.759 applying. I applied to SpaceX for one of their 00:10:14.759 --> 00:10:16.899 like flight control software positions or something. 00:10:17.240 --> 00:10:20.990 And it was, the job was for C++. At the job that 00:10:20.990 --> 00:10:23.490 I had, we didn't do any C++. It was JavaScript 00:10:23.490 --> 00:10:27.830 pretty much almost exclusively. And in the technical 00:10:27.830 --> 00:10:29.789 interview, not even the technical interview, 00:10:29.870 --> 00:10:32.350 it was like the screen call for this job. The 00:10:32.350 --> 00:10:35.309 interviewer asked me, she was like, I just had 00:10:35.309 --> 00:10:37.889 six basic C++ questions. This is just to make 00:10:37.889 --> 00:10:39.879 sure. And then we'll go through the next part. 00:10:40.240 --> 00:10:42.299 She asked me the first three questions and every 00:10:42.299 --> 00:10:44.320 single one of them I had to say, I don't know 00:10:44.320 --> 00:10:46.179 the answer to that. I literally didn't even know. 00:10:46.259 --> 00:10:48.419 I couldn't even guess. And she stopped the screen 00:10:48.419 --> 00:10:50.279 call halfway through. I was like, okay, I think 00:10:50.279 --> 00:10:53.559 we have what we need. So I was so embarrassed. 00:10:53.840 --> 00:10:56.879 I literally could not have done worse. I didn't 00:10:56.879 --> 00:10:59.460 even get a single question right. So I was like, 00:10:59.519 --> 00:11:03.259 okay, I'm not going to get into this job as I 00:11:03.259 --> 00:11:07.960 am now. I need to go get more training. Going 00:11:07.960 --> 00:11:10.860 to graduate school and getting a master's was 00:11:10.860 --> 00:11:15.519 kind of a hack. Okay, so my thinking was, and 00:11:15.519 --> 00:11:17.299 this ended up working out and being true, if 00:11:17.299 --> 00:11:21.299 you want to pivot your career, so at the time 00:11:21.299 --> 00:11:22.840 I was doing web tech, right, and I wanted to 00:11:22.840 --> 00:11:28.039 do embedded aerospace stuff, right? But if I 00:11:28.039 --> 00:11:29.879 were to just apply for a job, I'm not qualified, 00:11:30.000 --> 00:11:34.340 and I'm being interviewed and hired as an experienced 00:11:34.340 --> 00:11:36.399 candidate with no experience, so I don't even 00:11:36.399 --> 00:11:39.759 get considered. But if you go through school, 00:11:39.899 --> 00:11:42.419 through college, and then apply, you're hired 00:11:42.419 --> 00:11:45.659 as a recent grad. And they don't care if you 00:11:45.659 --> 00:11:48.019 don't have experience. So that was kind of like 00:11:48.019 --> 00:11:51.419 my workaround for not having experience. I just 00:11:51.419 --> 00:11:53.879 went to grad school. And I was fortunate enough 00:11:53.879 --> 00:11:56.700 to have it covered with scholarships and stuff. 00:11:58.100 --> 00:12:00.179 And then when I went and applied for jobs, even 00:12:00.179 --> 00:12:01.759 though I didn't have relevant experience, I mean, 00:12:01.779 --> 00:12:06.009 I had some, given the academic background. But 00:12:06.009 --> 00:12:07.309 they didn't care that I didn't have experience, 00:12:07.450 --> 00:12:11.049 right? Because I was a recent grad. So I did 00:12:11.049 --> 00:12:12.909 not go and work for SpaceX. I went instead and 00:12:12.909 --> 00:12:15.450 worked for Sandia National Labs in Albuquerque. 00:12:16.070 --> 00:12:18.529 I did work on space stuff, though. I worked on 00:12:18.529 --> 00:12:22.629 electronics for satellites. That was a super 00:12:22.629 --> 00:12:24.629 interesting job. I ended up getting a top -secret 00:12:24.629 --> 00:12:28.529 security clearance and everything. So I was working 00:12:28.529 --> 00:12:31.350 with FPGAs, writing super low -level embedded 00:12:31.350 --> 00:12:35.220 code. One thing that... me and some other co 00:12:35.220 --> 00:12:37.899 -workers spent a lot of time working on was this 00:12:37.899 --> 00:12:40.740 heterogeneous, the fancy name is like a heterogeneous 00:12:40.740 --> 00:12:42.700 computing platform, right? And what that means 00:12:42.700 --> 00:12:45.539 is you're on an electronics platform that has 00:12:45.539 --> 00:12:50.940 maybe like a GPU and a CPU, or in our case, it 00:12:50.940 --> 00:12:55.519 was a CPU and then your FPGA stuff. And we ended 00:12:55.519 --> 00:12:58.090 up implementing something kind of like CUDA, 00:12:58.250 --> 00:13:00.950 for your viewers that are familiar with CUDA, 00:13:01.090 --> 00:13:05.250 where you can accelerate some algorithms by offloading 00:13:05.250 --> 00:13:08.169 it off of the CPU onto dedicated GPU hardware. 00:13:08.490 --> 00:13:11.210 In our case, it wasn't a GPU. It was an FPGA. 00:13:11.389 --> 00:13:13.750 So we had these really, really intense image 00:13:13.750 --> 00:13:16.750 processing algorithms that we needed to perform 00:13:16.750 --> 00:13:19.330 really, really fast on relatively low power hardware. 00:13:19.769 --> 00:13:24.230 So we implemented these algorithms in the FPGA, 00:13:24.389 --> 00:13:28.820 parts of them anyway. I apologize for my dog 00:13:28.820 --> 00:13:31.019 barking. It's fine. It's fine. Hopefully that's 00:13:31.019 --> 00:13:35.220 not too annoying. But anyway, and then we would, 00:13:35.220 --> 00:13:38.000 on the CPU part, we would write the code such 00:13:38.000 --> 00:13:40.500 that, like, that really, we could, like, parallelize 00:13:40.500 --> 00:13:42.240 stuff onto the FPGA and then get the result back 00:13:42.240 --> 00:13:44.399 out. So we ended up, like, recreating, like, 00:13:44.399 --> 00:13:47.100 a poor man's queue from scratch, which was super 00:13:47.100 --> 00:13:49.340 interesting. I learned a ton from that. And we 00:13:49.340 --> 00:13:52.100 applied for a patent and got it patented. So 00:13:52.100 --> 00:13:55.720 I do have one patent under my name from working 00:13:55.720 --> 00:13:59.590 there. But I really enjoyed that job, but I did 00:13:59.590 --> 00:14:02.570 not enjoy having a security clearance at all. 00:14:02.710 --> 00:14:06.769 So after about five years, I left that and went 00:14:06.769 --> 00:14:09.750 and worked for a startup called Reliable Robotics 00:14:09.750 --> 00:14:13.710 that was working on autonomous aircraft. So little 00:14:13.710 --> 00:14:16.389 cargo planes that fly themselves. That was also 00:14:16.389 --> 00:14:19.389 embedded focused. Loved that job. Great people, 00:14:19.490 --> 00:14:23.840 good company. But I had an opportunity. through 00:14:23.840 --> 00:14:27.500 a competence that worked at Cloudflare. They 00:14:27.500 --> 00:14:29.919 let me know that they were looking for a role 00:14:29.919 --> 00:14:33.980 and position, and it was too tempting to pass 00:14:33.980 --> 00:14:37.080 up. So I ended up taking that, moving to Cloudflare 00:14:37.080 --> 00:14:39.580 a little over, or almost a year ago. Actually, 00:14:39.600 --> 00:14:41.440 it'll be a year in just a couple weeks. It's 00:14:41.440 --> 00:14:44.240 my first anniversary at Cloudflare. So I've been 00:14:44.240 --> 00:14:47.139 there ever since. Yeah, that's the short version, 00:14:47.259 --> 00:14:49.980 the quick version of my professional history, 00:14:50.080 --> 00:14:57.980 anyway. I guess in terms of open source stuff, 00:14:58.259 --> 00:15:01.639 yeah, I got involved in that. Actually, I don't 00:15:01.639 --> 00:15:03.320 know. You can edit this part out. I'm going to 00:15:03.320 --> 00:15:04.759 take a break to see if you have any questions 00:15:04.759 --> 00:15:06.860 for me. I've been talking for a long time. Did 00:15:06.860 --> 00:15:12.259 it affect you when they rejected you in SpaceX? 00:15:12.679 --> 00:15:17.019 Did it affect you? Did something happen or not 00:15:17.019 --> 00:15:21.159 at all? It did affect me. I mean, I was super 00:15:21.159 --> 00:15:24.500 embarrassed. I felt really ashamed for a couple 00:15:24.500 --> 00:15:26.779 of days. I can laugh about it now. I'm not embarrassed 00:15:26.779 --> 00:15:30.679 to tell the story, partially because I know C++ 00:15:30.679 --> 00:15:34.059 much, much better now. And I would totally breeze 00:15:34.059 --> 00:15:36.059 through that interview today. So I don't mind 00:15:36.059 --> 00:15:39.419 sharing a failure in the past now that it's been 00:15:39.419 --> 00:15:42.159 a few years. But no, at the time, it was brutal. 00:15:42.539 --> 00:15:45.120 I mean, I don't know that I'd ever failed at 00:15:45.120 --> 00:15:49.950 anything that badly before. it was very humbling 00:15:49.950 --> 00:15:52.289 for sure. And I think I was very discouraged 00:15:52.289 --> 00:15:56.769 by that. Like I was like, yeah, that definitely 00:15:56.769 --> 00:16:01.629 was kind of a motivation killer, but not permanent, 00:16:01.809 --> 00:16:04.610 thankfully. But yeah, it was pretty demotivating 00:16:04.610 --> 00:16:06.629 for a little while. Yeah, you moved on. That's 00:16:06.629 --> 00:16:09.409 great. Yeah. You were going to continue with 00:16:09.409 --> 00:16:11.509 open source as well, right? You want to share 00:16:11.509 --> 00:16:16.470 your background history there? Sure. Yeah. Let's 00:16:16.470 --> 00:16:19.649 see. When I was at that first job at that technology 00:16:19.649 --> 00:16:22.110 consulting firm, I'll talk about my editor history 00:16:22.110 --> 00:16:25.549 too, I guess. The big one at the time was Adam. 00:16:25.730 --> 00:16:29.090 Adam was the really popular one. So folks that 00:16:29.090 --> 00:16:30.990 paid attention to editors over time will know 00:16:30.990 --> 00:16:34.610 Adam as the precursor, spiritual precursor in 00:16:34.610 --> 00:16:38.309 a sense to VS Code and also in a sense to Zed 00:16:38.309 --> 00:16:41.289 because the same people that started Adam went 00:16:41.289 --> 00:16:45.840 on to start TreeSitter and today Zed. But at 00:16:45.840 --> 00:16:49.659 the time, Atom was the big one. But I also learned 00:16:49.659 --> 00:16:54.360 Vim, the basics of Vim. I didn't use it as my 00:16:54.360 --> 00:16:57.899 main editor, but I knew it well enough to navigate 00:16:57.899 --> 00:17:01.960 around and edit files and stuff. When I was in 00:17:01.960 --> 00:17:05.160 grad school, I was writing a lot of C++, and 00:17:05.160 --> 00:17:06.940 I started doing some research. Okay, what's the 00:17:06.940 --> 00:17:10.160 best IDE for doing C++? This was still at the 00:17:10.160 --> 00:17:12.700 time. I don't think VS Code had swallowed the 00:17:12.700 --> 00:17:16.690 world. So I didn't just default to VS Code. So 00:17:16.690 --> 00:17:18.329 I was doing some research on what's the best 00:17:18.329 --> 00:17:21.890 IDE for C++. And people talked about, there were 00:17:21.890 --> 00:17:27.009 some mentions of NetBeans and CLion. And I tried 00:17:27.009 --> 00:17:29.670 both and didn't really click with either. But 00:17:29.670 --> 00:17:31.390 then there was some Stack Overflow comment that 00:17:31.390 --> 00:17:33.369 was like, just use Vim. Vim is perfect for it. 00:17:33.509 --> 00:17:35.630 And I was like, OK, I guess I could consider 00:17:35.630 --> 00:17:38.890 it. And that was the moment, basically, where 00:17:38.890 --> 00:17:42.150 I started using Vim full time. uh from from then 00:17:42.150 --> 00:17:45.670 on so i you know installed some plugins uh it's 00:17:45.670 --> 00:17:47.250 actually kind of crazy to think how far it's 00:17:47.250 --> 00:17:49.390 come since then at the time lsp wasn't a thing 00:17:49.390 --> 00:17:52.750 so if you wanted completion in vim there was 00:17:52.750 --> 00:17:54.809 this plugin called you complete me which i think 00:17:54.809 --> 00:17:58.849 is still around uh and it uses like a third like 00:17:58.849 --> 00:18:02.009 a separate process and i think it's like written 00:18:02.009 --> 00:18:04.690 in python to talk to i actually don't know how 00:18:04.690 --> 00:18:08.119 it works it's black it's pretty fancy but at 00:18:08.119 --> 00:18:09.880 the time i remember installing that and it blowing 00:18:09.880 --> 00:18:11.900 my mind like the fact that i could i could have 00:18:11.900 --> 00:18:15.140 auto completion and vin was like it was like 00:18:15.140 --> 00:18:19.839 unreal to me it was like insane um and then after 00:18:19.839 --> 00:18:22.579 that i just i kept just kept using kept using 00:18:22.579 --> 00:18:25.859 them uh so i i used basically just regular vim 00:18:25.859 --> 00:18:29.460 for for a long time i think i try like looked 00:18:29.460 --> 00:18:32.599 at NeoVim, but if I used it, I basically used 00:18:32.599 --> 00:18:35.180 it as if it were Vim without really understanding 00:18:35.180 --> 00:18:37.700 what the differences were. And it was around 00:18:37.700 --> 00:18:39.759 this time that my very, very first contribution 00:18:39.759 --> 00:18:43.559 to NeoVim was made, and it had to do with a Python 00:18:43.559 --> 00:18:48.440 provider or something. Like PyInf, I don't know, 00:18:48.460 --> 00:18:51.480 something really archaic and lame like that. 00:18:53.480 --> 00:18:57.960 And then, let's see. and then i don't remember 00:18:57.960 --> 00:18:59.559 oh you know what it was it was it was around 00:18:59.559 --> 00:19:02.519 the time that neovim the neovim 0 .5 release 00:19:02.519 --> 00:19:04.319 came out and there's a lot of hype around it 00:19:04.319 --> 00:19:07.039 i don't know how i heard about it but this was 00:19:07.039 --> 00:19:10.460 like okay the lsp client is coming out of you 00:19:10.460 --> 00:19:12.759 know it's going to be shipped lua is like a first 00:19:12.759 --> 00:19:15.660 class citizen there's all this buzz and hype 00:19:15.660 --> 00:19:17.980 around the 0 .5 release and so i finally went 00:19:17.980 --> 00:19:20.099 and looked at it and i was like all right like 00:19:20.099 --> 00:19:22.720 this looks like I can see enough differences 00:19:22.720 --> 00:19:25.259 between old Vim, regular Vim, and NeoVim now 00:19:25.259 --> 00:19:27.559 to be like, okay, it's worth switching and taking 00:19:27.559 --> 00:19:29.779 advantage of some of this new stuff. So that 00:19:29.779 --> 00:19:34.140 was when I made the switch to NeoVim. And then... 00:19:34.140 --> 00:19:39.059 I have a question for you. How easy is it to 00:19:39.059 --> 00:19:43.400 debug C++ in NeoVim? Do you do any debugging 00:19:43.400 --> 00:19:48.920 at all or no? I don't do it in NeoVim. there 00:19:48.920 --> 00:19:51.539 is like the debug adapter protocol and a fellow 00:19:51.539 --> 00:19:54.259 a co -maintainer of new event maintains the plug 00:19:54.259 --> 00:19:57.279 -in for that uh matthias is his name i'm i'm 00:19:57.279 --> 00:19:58.799 not even trying to pronounce his last name because 00:19:58.799 --> 00:20:03.099 i'm 100 say it wrong uh i think it's like fusenegger 00:20:03.099 --> 00:20:06.160 i think it's it's like german or austrian so 00:20:06.160 --> 00:20:08.779 i'm not sure i pronounce it sorry matthias uh 00:20:08.779 --> 00:20:10.859 but he maintains that the plug -in i have tried 00:20:10.859 --> 00:20:13.980 it i have never really been able to get comfortable 00:20:13.980 --> 00:20:15.920 with the debugging inside of the event thing 00:20:15.920 --> 00:20:20.440 c plus plus and c has gdb and lldb which for 00:20:20.440 --> 00:20:24.759 me work great so i just use that and it's i'm 00:20:24.759 --> 00:20:26.740 perfectly happy with it so i don't have any complaints 00:20:26.740 --> 00:20:30.960 there gdb is kind of like neovim in the sense 00:20:30.960 --> 00:20:32.619 that it's a power tool it has a pretty steep 00:20:32.619 --> 00:20:35.640 learning curve but like once you get a little 00:20:35.640 --> 00:20:37.559 bit up the learning curve and get past the initial 00:20:37.559 --> 00:20:40.920 discomfort and scary like the fear of using it 00:20:40.920 --> 00:20:43.700 it's just an extraordinarily powerful tool and 00:20:43.700 --> 00:20:46.900 it's that's also like vim is scriptable so you 00:20:46.900 --> 00:20:50.519 can make it do anything you want um so no i'm 00:20:50.519 --> 00:20:53.559 i'm a big gdb could be better for sure like it's 00:20:53.559 --> 00:20:55.900 not it's not perfect and there are other debuggers 00:20:55.900 --> 00:21:01.119 that um improve upon the experience but i generally 00:21:01.119 --> 00:21:05.019 speaking if i can use gdb i'm pretty happy and 00:21:05.019 --> 00:21:07.839 i can usually find get what i need out of it 00:21:07.839 --> 00:21:11.849 oh okay now would you mind sharing a little bit 00:21:11.849 --> 00:21:14.490 about the new of him history i don't know if 00:21:14.490 --> 00:21:17.490 you know the history about it or not but i didn't 00:21:17.490 --> 00:21:20.890 know that lua was not a thing back in the back 00:21:20.890 --> 00:21:24.250 in the day any of him i had a call with um the 00:21:24.250 --> 00:21:27.230 harper language server creator and i think he's 00:21:27.230 --> 00:21:29.410 the one that told me that before lua and i was 00:21:29.410 --> 00:21:32.150 like before lua was there any of him without 00:21:32.150 --> 00:21:35.589 lua do you know anything about that a little 00:21:35.589 --> 00:21:37.650 bit i wasn't around then so i can't speak from 00:21:37.650 --> 00:21:40.250 experience it's just what i've just read myself 00:21:41.079 --> 00:21:44.160 The project was initially started by a guy named 00:21:44.160 --> 00:21:47.160 Thiago Silva, who's no longer involved. He's 00:21:47.160 --> 00:21:49.039 still around. I sometimes see his comments on 00:21:49.039 --> 00:21:53.559 Hacker News. He's still in the community. Where 00:21:53.559 --> 00:21:56.880 is he from? I want to say, I'm pretty sure he's 00:21:56.880 --> 00:21:59.799 from Brazil. Okay, yeah, because the real terminal 00:21:59.799 --> 00:22:02.720 maintainer said in the call that I had with him 00:22:02.720 --> 00:22:05.880 that Neobim was started by some Brazil guys, 00:22:06.119 --> 00:22:09.559 correct? Yeah, at least Thiago is from Brazil. 00:22:09.579 --> 00:22:13.450 I don't know. by his co -conspirators. The lore 00:22:13.450 --> 00:22:16.269 is that there were some patches that were sent 00:22:16.269 --> 00:22:18.609 to the Vim dev mailing list about adding some 00:22:18.609 --> 00:22:23.670 support for async and job control. And the patch 00:22:23.670 --> 00:22:27.009 proposers were not happy with how long it was 00:22:27.009 --> 00:22:30.910 taking. This is where, I guess, opinions on what 00:22:30.910 --> 00:22:33.200 happened. very and you can find like the thread 00:22:33.200 --> 00:22:35.339 on the vim dev mailing list there's not like 00:22:35.339 --> 00:22:37.039 any drama i'm trying to make it sound like there 00:22:37.039 --> 00:22:39.259 was just some something juicy happened but essentially 00:22:39.259 --> 00:22:41.460 that was kind of where the fork occurred is i 00:22:41.460 --> 00:22:43.460 think some people were frustrated with the development 00:22:43.460 --> 00:22:46.259 process of vim that there was a single bus factor 00:22:46.259 --> 00:22:50.799 in bram uh development was slow because nothing 00:22:50.799 --> 00:22:54.579 got done unless bran was involved so the the 00:22:55.180 --> 00:22:57.539 The creation of NeoVim was partially spawned 00:22:57.539 --> 00:22:59.759 by wanting to add new features and also wanting 00:22:59.759 --> 00:23:03.140 to change the contribution model, which it has 00:23:03.140 --> 00:23:06.720 done successfully. And somewhat ironically, Vim 00:23:06.720 --> 00:23:11.759 has also done now the same thing. But yes, in 00:23:11.759 --> 00:23:14.420 the early days, Vim and NeoVim were extremely 00:23:14.420 --> 00:23:17.480 similar. Some of the earliest things NeoVim did 00:23:17.480 --> 00:23:23.279 from Vim was introduce some third -party libraries 00:23:23.279 --> 00:23:26.400 instead of doing vim is almost almost entirely 00:23:26.400 --> 00:23:30.160 homegrown it's very much like an nih thing right 00:23:30.160 --> 00:23:32.859 and i think that's because it was bram mulinar's 00:23:32.859 --> 00:23:36.339 pet project his baby right so he for him it was 00:23:36.339 --> 00:23:39.339 fun he wanted to do all this stuff himself uh 00:23:39.339 --> 00:23:41.460 but it was it made maintenance really hard and 00:23:41.460 --> 00:23:43.259 the code the code base was a little bit messy 00:23:43.259 --> 00:23:46.880 so one of the first things that the new product 00:23:46.880 --> 00:23:50.940 did was to take out some of the the custom vim 00:23:50.940 --> 00:23:53.349 stuff and replace it with well -established third 00:23:53.349 --> 00:23:57.089 -party libraries. So NeoVim uses libuv, the same 00:23:57.089 --> 00:24:00.789 event loop library that Node .js uses, to do 00:24:00.789 --> 00:24:03.190 its event loop management. That was one of the 00:24:03.190 --> 00:24:06.250 first things that NeoVim did. NeoVim wrote and 00:24:06.250 --> 00:24:10.390 replaced its own VimScript parser. NeoVim's VimScript 00:24:10.390 --> 00:24:13.190 parser is different from Vim's. NeoVim has a 00:24:13.190 --> 00:24:16.329 different state management file. So NeoVim has 00:24:16.329 --> 00:24:19.410 a file called shada, or shared data. which is 00:24:19.410 --> 00:24:21.970 what keeps track of... But when you exit NeoVim 00:24:21.970 --> 00:24:24.509 and start it back up, NeoVim remembers some things, 00:24:24.589 --> 00:24:27.410 like marks and history. All that is stored in 00:24:27.410 --> 00:24:29.589 this shared data file, and that is different 00:24:29.589 --> 00:24:31.950 from Vim. So there's a lot of stuff that changed 00:24:31.950 --> 00:24:37.750 early on. Some features, like the ink command 00:24:37.750 --> 00:24:41.890 feature, where if you write a substitute command, 00:24:42.029 --> 00:24:45.289 like colon S or whatever, you see it happen live 00:24:45.289 --> 00:24:47.869 before you press enter. That was a feature that 00:24:47.869 --> 00:24:51.119 NeoVim... added, like one of the very first things 00:24:51.119 --> 00:24:52.559 it added. So yeah, there was a lot of stuff even 00:24:52.559 --> 00:24:56.200 before Lua. So Vim also supports Lua, by the 00:24:56.200 --> 00:24:58.440 way. So Vim supports a number of different languages 00:24:58.440 --> 00:25:00.079 through these different interfaces. But it's 00:25:00.079 --> 00:25:04.759 all done through these hooks, I guess is kind 00:25:04.759 --> 00:25:08.119 of a way to describe it. And Vim calls them interfaces, 00:25:08.519 --> 00:25:12.019 like a language interface. And people would use 00:25:12.019 --> 00:25:13.880 these to write plugins. So there were a lot of 00:25:13.880 --> 00:25:17.019 plugins written in Python for Vim. using this 00:25:17.019 --> 00:25:18.880 Python interface. But it was always kind of a 00:25:18.880 --> 00:25:22.359 pain in the ass because it wasn't guaranteed 00:25:22.359 --> 00:25:24.079 that your version... Vim had all these different 00:25:24.079 --> 00:25:26.920 compile flags, right? So you could enable or 00:25:26.920 --> 00:25:29.519 disable features at compile time. And if your 00:25:29.519 --> 00:25:31.500 version of Vim that you got from your distribution 00:25:31.500 --> 00:25:34.660 or whatever was compiled without Python support, 00:25:34.940 --> 00:25:36.660 you were out of luck. You couldn't do anything 00:25:36.660 --> 00:25:38.579 about it. You had to go recompile Vim yourself. 00:25:39.299 --> 00:25:41.539 So it had to be compiled with Python and compiled 00:25:41.539 --> 00:25:44.819 with Ruby support and Lua support. So NeoVim 00:25:44.819 --> 00:25:46.299 also did away with all that, and it has this 00:25:46.299 --> 00:25:48.039 concept of remote plugins instead, and using 00:25:48.039 --> 00:25:51.079 message pack RPC is another difference between 00:25:51.079 --> 00:25:55.900 regular Vim and NeoVim. But Vim supports Lua 00:25:55.900 --> 00:25:58.160 through this Lua interface, although, again, 00:25:58.240 --> 00:26:00.880 it has to be compiled in, and it's kind of a 00:26:00.880 --> 00:26:05.519 mess. NeoVim did the same thing at first, supported 00:26:05.519 --> 00:26:08.799 Lua in a slightly more robust way, but there 00:26:08.799 --> 00:26:10.779 are a lot of things you still couldn't do in 00:26:10.779 --> 00:26:17.990 Lua. in the 0 .5 release lua became like um a 00:26:17.990 --> 00:26:21.890 much more prominent like you could use it for 00:26:21.890 --> 00:26:23.509 your init file you use it for plug -in files 00:26:23.509 --> 00:26:27.509 um like that whole like being able to require 00:26:27.509 --> 00:26:32.289 modules really easily became much easier to do 00:26:32.289 --> 00:26:35.309 so yeah the 0 .5 release was where lua became 00:26:35.309 --> 00:26:39.430 like lua today neoman and lua is like they go 00:26:39.430 --> 00:26:42.190 hand in hand But the vast majority of Neonium 00:26:42.190 --> 00:26:44.750 users write their configuration Lua, but that 00:26:44.750 --> 00:26:47.430 wasn't always the case in the early days. And 00:26:47.430 --> 00:26:51.130 what are your thoughts on Lua? I know, I already 00:26:51.130 --> 00:26:53.829 know, but for people that don't know, how do 00:26:53.829 --> 00:26:57.569 you feel about Lua? I think Lua is a great example 00:26:57.569 --> 00:26:59.529 of the design philosophy of doing a lot with 00:26:59.529 --> 00:27:03.150 a little. So Lua has very few concepts to understand. 00:27:03.490 --> 00:27:07.089 As far as data types, there's numbers, strings, 00:27:07.470 --> 00:27:11.119 tables, and functions. And I think that's it. 00:27:11.279 --> 00:27:14.160 So there's no difference between an array and 00:27:14.160 --> 00:27:17.079 a dict or a map, right? It's all just tables. 00:27:17.539 --> 00:27:19.579 Its standard library is also very small. And 00:27:19.579 --> 00:27:21.220 the reason it's designed this way is because 00:27:21.220 --> 00:27:23.180 Lua is designed to be an embedded language. This 00:27:23.180 --> 00:27:26.819 is why it was there in World of Warcraft back 00:27:26.819 --> 00:27:29.319 when I was a teenager, is because it's so small 00:27:29.319 --> 00:27:31.240 and easy to embed into other applications. It's 00:27:31.240 --> 00:27:33.099 very common and very popular in video games. 00:27:33.259 --> 00:27:35.240 It's popular in editors, right? It's popular 00:27:35.240 --> 00:27:37.759 in any environment where you want to provide 00:27:37.759 --> 00:27:40.799 scripting capability without... pulling in like 00:27:40.799 --> 00:27:44.160 a huge heavy language so lua is intentionally 00:27:44.160 --> 00:27:47.259 small it's designed to be small and it's able 00:27:47.259 --> 00:27:51.380 to do quite a bit with that um the flip side 00:27:51.380 --> 00:27:54.099 of that though is there are trade -offs and the 00:27:54.099 --> 00:27:57.599 trade -offs are there are some really nasty edge 00:27:57.599 --> 00:28:00.799 cases and foot guns there are some language features 00:28:00.799 --> 00:28:04.359 that to me are inexplicably missing like lua 00:28:04.359 --> 00:28:07.440 has no continue keyword if you're writing a loop 00:28:08.059 --> 00:28:10.819 and you want to go to the next iteration of the 00:28:10.819 --> 00:28:13.519 loop, you can't write continue. It doesn't exist, 00:28:13.799 --> 00:28:19.680 which is just bonkers to me. But I also don't 00:28:19.680 --> 00:28:24.279 particularly like... Another gripe I have with 00:28:24.279 --> 00:28:27.079 Lua is that it defaults to global variables. 00:28:27.180 --> 00:28:30.240 So if you write x equals 3, you've just defined 00:28:30.240 --> 00:28:32.660 a global variable called x. If you want to define 00:28:32.660 --> 00:28:36.539 a variable scoped... to the lexical scope you 00:28:36.539 --> 00:28:39.519 have to write the keyword local which is not 00:28:39.519 --> 00:28:41.759 a huge deal but in terms of language design right 00:28:41.759 --> 00:28:44.099 you want to optimize you want to make it easy 00:28:44.099 --> 00:28:45.980 to do the right thing and hard to do the wrong 00:28:45.980 --> 00:28:48.400 thing and that's an example of where lua does 00:28:48.400 --> 00:28:51.359 the opposite um and then yeah i said this in 00:28:51.359 --> 00:28:53.480 our last discussion but i also just find lua 00:28:53.480 --> 00:28:56.859 aesthetically very i don't like looking at it 00:28:56.859 --> 00:28:59.660 i just think aesthetically lua is super ugly 00:28:59.660 --> 00:29:03.240 i hate looking at lua I don't particularly like 00:29:03.240 --> 00:29:07.299 enjoying writing. It's kind of a weird complaint, 00:29:07.460 --> 00:29:09.380 right? But there's some code when you look at 00:29:09.380 --> 00:29:12.259 it, and it just kind of flows, right? It's visually 00:29:12.259 --> 00:29:17.480 appealing to look at. You can see the way the 00:29:17.480 --> 00:29:19.640 code flows, and it's really easy to kind of... 00:29:19.640 --> 00:29:22.900 Lua is not like that. It's a very imperative 00:29:22.900 --> 00:29:27.640 language. It does have functions as first class 00:29:27.640 --> 00:29:29.819 values, which is nice. So you can do some functional 00:29:29.819 --> 00:29:33.059 stuff. But even the syntax for defining functions 00:29:33.059 --> 00:29:37.079 is very verbose. So you don't see a lot of that 00:29:37.079 --> 00:29:38.980 kind of code written in Lua because it's just 00:29:38.980 --> 00:29:45.759 not very nice to write or to look at. Yeah, I 00:29:45.759 --> 00:29:48.929 don't know. I have mixed feelings about it. I 00:29:48.929 --> 00:29:50.710 think you can do a whole lot worse than Lua, 00:29:50.829 --> 00:29:53.829 right? Like, most of the time, I'm not going 00:29:53.829 --> 00:29:56.970 to complain about seeing Lua. But if I get to 00:29:56.970 --> 00:29:59.589 choose, I'm probably not going to choose Lua. 00:29:59.710 --> 00:30:02.690 That's what I was going to ask. What do you think 00:30:02.690 --> 00:30:05.690 could have been, you know, a replacement for 00:30:05.690 --> 00:30:09.730 Lua? Well, I think, well, I should clarify. For 00:30:09.730 --> 00:30:12.930 Neobim's design goals, what it wants to achieve, 00:30:13.069 --> 00:30:15.230 I think Lua is the right choice. Especially with 00:30:15.230 --> 00:30:18.119 the existence of LuaJIT. which for those who 00:30:18.119 --> 00:30:21.660 don't know, LuaJIT is an implementation of Lua 00:30:21.660 --> 00:30:27.960 5 .1. So Lua, like C or Go, is a specification. 00:30:28.539 --> 00:30:32.440 There's this manual that says this language does 00:30:32.440 --> 00:30:35.259 this, right? And then there are different implementations 00:30:35.259 --> 00:30:38.380 of the specification. The people that designed 00:30:38.380 --> 00:30:42.660 Lua are from a university called PUC, P -U -C, 00:30:42.839 --> 00:30:46.160 in Rio de Janeiro. which I've been to, actually, 00:30:46.279 --> 00:30:50.519 funnily enough. And that's what we call PUC Lua, 00:30:50.640 --> 00:30:53.180 P -U -C Lua. That's like the out -of -the -box 00:30:53.180 --> 00:30:56.440 original standard Lua. But then there's a guy 00:30:56.440 --> 00:30:59.140 named Mike Paul who started this project called 00:30:59.140 --> 00:31:02.779 Lua JIT, where JIT here means just -in -time 00:31:02.779 --> 00:31:05.180 in terms of just -in -time compilers, which I 00:31:05.180 --> 00:31:07.359 won't go into or explain. People can look that 00:31:07.359 --> 00:31:09.480 up if they don't know what that means. But it's 00:31:09.480 --> 00:31:12.400 an alternative implementation of the Lua 5 .1 00:31:12.400 --> 00:31:16.039 language specification. that is very, very fast. 00:31:17.099 --> 00:31:21.579 Much, much faster than Puke Lua. So this is great 00:31:21.579 --> 00:31:24.859 for projects like Neovan that want something 00:31:24.859 --> 00:31:29.200 that's small, that won't bloat the editor by 00:31:29.200 --> 00:31:31.480 including it, by embedding it, and also very, 00:31:31.579 --> 00:31:35.059 very fast. So with the existence of LuaJIT, if 00:31:35.059 --> 00:31:37.980 you're embedding a language into your application, 00:31:38.579 --> 00:31:44.019 Lua is usually a very, very good choice. So I 00:31:44.019 --> 00:31:45.140 don't think I would have chosen anything different 00:31:45.140 --> 00:31:47.460 for any of them specifically. I just mean if 00:31:47.460 --> 00:31:51.099 I'm writing code for a pet project or something, 00:31:51.220 --> 00:31:56.400 and I'm choosing a scripting language, I probably 00:31:56.400 --> 00:31:58.559 wouldn't pick Lua for myself. That's all that 00:31:58.559 --> 00:32:03.119 I meant. Okay. Okay, but that's the reason in 00:32:03.119 --> 00:32:04.940 our last conversation that you mentioned that 00:32:04.940 --> 00:32:07.259 you use Fennel, right? So would you mind explaining 00:32:07.259 --> 00:32:09.779 what Fennel is for people that don't know what 00:32:09.779 --> 00:32:11.940 it is? You're sharing your screen at any time. 00:32:12.039 --> 00:32:14.460 So if you want to jump to your screen, you just 00:32:14.460 --> 00:32:17.700 let me know and it's easier that way. Yeah, I 00:32:17.700 --> 00:32:20.960 just pull up the Fennel website. If people want 00:32:20.960 --> 00:32:24.900 to see that, it's at fenneling .org. But Fennel 00:32:24.900 --> 00:32:30.359 is a Lisp that compiles. or trans files, I guess, 00:32:30.500 --> 00:32:38.900 into Lua. So I'm a fan of Lisp. In my own time, 00:32:38.980 --> 00:32:40.900 because I mentioned earlier, I didn't study computer 00:32:40.900 --> 00:32:43.380 science in university. I studied electrical engineering. 00:32:43.640 --> 00:32:46.079 So I've done a lot of self -study just on my 00:32:46.079 --> 00:32:50.279 own time. And one textbook that I worked through 00:32:50.279 --> 00:32:55.240 was called The Structure and Interpretation of 00:32:55.240 --> 00:32:56.740 Computer Programs. I think that's what it's called, 00:32:56.819 --> 00:33:01.079 the SICP. which you can find for free online, 00:33:01.259 --> 00:33:07.539 by the way. I highly recommend reading it if 00:33:07.539 --> 00:33:11.700 anyone hasn't. But yeah, here's the PDF. And 00:33:11.700 --> 00:33:15.859 in this textbook, they use Scheme. So they use 00:33:15.859 --> 00:33:19.099 Scheme to teach these fundamentals of programming. 00:33:19.779 --> 00:33:23.440 And Scheme, we talked earlier about how Lua is 00:33:23.440 --> 00:33:25.680 a language that does a lot with a little. I think 00:33:25.680 --> 00:33:28.720 Scheme is even more so. Scheme has even less 00:33:28.720 --> 00:33:33.099 syntax than Lua. It's an extremely simple, minimal 00:33:33.099 --> 00:33:38.259 language. It's a Lisp language. And I went through 00:33:38.259 --> 00:33:41.099 this book and was doing the exercises, and I 00:33:41.099 --> 00:33:44.599 kind of just fell in love with the concept of 00:33:44.599 --> 00:33:47.839 Lisp and how much you could do and represent 00:33:47.839 --> 00:33:51.640 with this extremely primitive language. All you 00:33:51.640 --> 00:33:55.650 have is just Lisp. a couple of other syntax things, 00:33:55.829 --> 00:33:59.670 but it's all just, it's all just like just lists, 00:33:59.710 --> 00:34:02.750 right? Lisp stands for list processor. So I think 00:34:02.750 --> 00:34:04.730 that fundamental data structure and Lisp is just 00:34:04.730 --> 00:34:07.309 a list. So I really came to enjoy Lisp. I know 00:34:07.309 --> 00:34:09.010 it's controversial. A lot of people look at it 00:34:09.010 --> 00:34:10.809 and they don't get it. And they think it's ridiculous 00:34:10.809 --> 00:34:12.869 and ugly and they make jokes about parentheses, 00:34:13.010 --> 00:34:15.630 which I get it, right? Like I totally understand 00:34:15.630 --> 00:34:18.050 that, but to me it just clicked, right? I really 00:34:18.050 --> 00:34:20.940 enjoyed it. So when I found out there was, a 00:34:20.940 --> 00:34:24.280 Lisp language I compiled to Lua, I was very interested 00:34:24.280 --> 00:34:27.480 and I started kind of experimenting with integrating 00:34:27.480 --> 00:34:32.639 it into NeoVim. But yeah, that's what I use now. 00:34:32.820 --> 00:34:34.860 I obviously still write a lot of Lua because 00:34:34.860 --> 00:34:38.739 anything that I'm contributing to NeoVim itself 00:34:38.739 --> 00:34:43.280 is in Lua. Like my .files or whatever, I just 00:34:43.280 --> 00:34:45.980 write it all in Fennel. In Fennel, okay. You 00:34:45.980 --> 00:34:50.750 also mentioned... The Neovim team. I had a question. 00:34:50.849 --> 00:34:54.889 How does it work? Like the Neovim core team, 00:34:55.010 --> 00:34:58.510 how big is it? How easy is it to reach agreements 00:34:58.510 --> 00:35:02.469 in the team? How is the mechanics? How are the 00:35:02.469 --> 00:35:04.369 mechanics in the team? How is the relationship? 00:35:04.670 --> 00:35:06.889 How does all that work? Who takes the calls? 00:35:07.090 --> 00:35:11.269 Is it one person mainly or is it the group? Or 00:35:11.269 --> 00:35:14.280 do you want to share anything about that? Yeah, 00:35:14.320 --> 00:35:17.000 I can talk about that. It's pretty loosely structured 00:35:17.000 --> 00:35:23.179 and informal. I should caveat, just in case there 00:35:23.179 --> 00:35:25.699 are any other core team members watching, that 00:35:25.699 --> 00:35:28.239 nothing I say is authoritative, right? I'm just 00:35:28.239 --> 00:35:31.500 talking about my experience. But we kind of loosely 00:35:31.500 --> 00:35:35.619 follow a BDFL model, which is Benevolent Dictator 00:35:35.619 --> 00:35:40.300 for Life. Justin Keyes is our Benevolent Dictator. 00:35:40.750 --> 00:35:44.469 he has been involved with the project since if 00:35:44.469 --> 00:35:47.809 not the very beginning very very near the beginning 00:35:47.809 --> 00:35:51.070 so he's been around for a long time and he's 00:35:51.070 --> 00:35:53.769 he's kind of he's the person that if an executive 00:35:53.769 --> 00:35:56.690 decision needs to be made in most cases justin 00:35:56.690 --> 00:35:58.349 will make it but justin also is not around all 00:35:58.349 --> 00:36:01.050 the time he'll have prolonged periods of absences 00:36:01.050 --> 00:36:06.730 for whatever reason right and so when he's gone 00:36:06.730 --> 00:36:10.840 frankie's moving so There are multiple people 00:36:10.840 --> 00:36:13.460 that are able to merge PRs. That's what we call 00:36:13.460 --> 00:36:15.420 the core team. Anyone that has the ability to 00:36:15.420 --> 00:36:18.440 merge a PR is generally the core team. And the 00:36:18.440 --> 00:36:21.300 team is kind of loosely structured into areas 00:36:21.300 --> 00:36:28.880 of expertise and preference. So for me personally, 00:36:29.019 --> 00:36:30.719 that's pretty much anything that involves the 00:36:30.719 --> 00:36:33.920 TUI or the terminal, I will almost always review 00:36:33.920 --> 00:36:36.400 those PRs or handle those issues. That's not 00:36:36.400 --> 00:36:38.880 to say other people can't. I don't own it. It's 00:36:38.880 --> 00:36:42.159 not mine. But that's because that's my both area 00:36:42.159 --> 00:36:45.579 of interest and area where I just have more relatively 00:36:45.579 --> 00:36:48.599 more expertise. That's something that I tend 00:36:48.599 --> 00:36:51.000 to be more involved with. Whereas we have other 00:36:51.000 --> 00:36:53.380 people that spend a lot more time working on 00:36:53.380 --> 00:36:55.900 LSP stuff. You know, they're very familiar with 00:36:55.900 --> 00:37:00.320 the LSP specification, what other what other 00:37:00.320 --> 00:37:03.099 editors do, what other what's happening in the 00:37:03.099 --> 00:37:05.360 ecosystem. Right. And so they're just they're 00:37:05.360 --> 00:37:07.940 more. they're better equipped to handle those 00:37:07.940 --> 00:37:12.039 questions and PRs. But again, anyone can do anything, 00:37:12.139 --> 00:37:16.320 right? So I've made PRs and contributions to 00:37:16.320 --> 00:37:19.800 LSP, to LSP client, even though I don't consider 00:37:19.800 --> 00:37:24.579 myself part of the LSP team necessarily. So that's 00:37:24.579 --> 00:37:28.199 kind of loosely how it works. I would say the 00:37:28.199 --> 00:37:32.880 other person besides Justin that is maybe a de 00:37:32.880 --> 00:37:38.349 facto BDFL is is Bjorn, which I apologize if 00:37:38.349 --> 00:37:41.849 I say that wrong. He's beefreddle on GitHub and 00:37:41.849 --> 00:37:46.590 on Element or Matrix. But he's next to Justin, 00:37:46.690 --> 00:37:48.869 I think, has probably been around the longest 00:37:48.869 --> 00:37:51.929 and has touched most parts of the code. And he's 00:37:51.929 --> 00:37:53.550 kind of like the wizard when it comes to anything 00:37:53.550 --> 00:37:57.010 with the UIs and the really low -level fundamentals 00:37:57.010 --> 00:38:02.210 of NeoVim, like the way that buffers are represented 00:38:02.210 --> 00:38:06.840 in memory. like this data structure called mem 00:38:06.840 --> 00:38:09.079 file right and there's all this code that has 00:38:09.079 --> 00:38:12.260 to do with ui decorations like virtual text and 00:38:12.260 --> 00:38:15.739 the way that we neofm has this concept of x marks 00:38:15.739 --> 00:38:17.900 as we call them like all this stuff that's like 00:38:17.900 --> 00:38:20.960 low -level plumbing is kind of uh beef rattle's 00:38:20.960 --> 00:38:25.900 area of expertise uh i won't go through a name 00:38:25.900 --> 00:38:27.539 on everyone right because i'll almost certainly 00:38:27.539 --> 00:38:28.860 forget somebody i don't want to hurt anyone's 00:38:28.860 --> 00:38:31.159 feelings but uh i would say i would say aside 00:38:31.159 --> 00:38:33.679 from justin beef is probably like our our um 00:38:34.619 --> 00:38:37.420 our next personnel, like, if we need an executive 00:38:37.420 --> 00:38:40.719 decision to be made. But usually it's, like, 00:38:40.820 --> 00:38:45.079 we usually defer to expertise, right? So if there's, 00:38:45.119 --> 00:38:46.860 like, a question about the two -year terminal 00:38:46.860 --> 00:38:50.719 stuff, that is a decision that we usually, I 00:38:50.719 --> 00:38:52.440 can make the executive decision on that, just, 00:38:52.480 --> 00:38:55.440 again, because of my own experience in that area. 00:38:56.739 --> 00:38:59.440 You asked about how many people there are? I 00:38:59.440 --> 00:39:03.090 don't know off the top of my head. I could count, 00:39:03.210 --> 00:39:04.670 but no one wants to sit here and watch me count. 00:39:04.789 --> 00:39:07.369 If I had to guess, I would say between 8 and 00:39:07.369 --> 00:39:13.630 10. Okay. People that are active. And we've had 00:39:13.630 --> 00:39:16.590 people in the past that were very active and 00:39:16.590 --> 00:39:18.650 then have kind of drifted away for whatever reason. 00:39:20.030 --> 00:39:23.269 But there is a kernel of people that have been 00:39:23.269 --> 00:39:26.079 around. over for for many years now at this point 00:39:26.079 --> 00:39:28.559 um but it's all it's all very informal and loose 00:39:28.559 --> 00:39:30.380 right now that's one reason i think why people 00:39:30.380 --> 00:39:32.960 stick around is because if it ever stops being 00:39:32.960 --> 00:39:35.500 fun like we kind of joke that neo event practice 00:39:35.500 --> 00:39:37.679 is fun driven development which i think is a 00:39:37.679 --> 00:39:40.420 term that surely someone else has made up but 00:39:40.420 --> 00:39:43.179 all of us are here because it's a hobby i think 00:39:43.179 --> 00:39:46.599 there's maybe one or two people in the core team 00:39:46.599 --> 00:39:49.139 that do that that do it full -time that get paid 00:39:49.139 --> 00:39:51.510 to do it But the vast majority of the core team 00:39:51.510 --> 00:39:54.869 do it as a hobby, on a volunteer basis. So we 00:39:54.869 --> 00:39:56.989 all do it for fun. And if it ever stops being 00:39:56.989 --> 00:39:59.789 fun, you kind of just take a break, right? Just 00:39:59.789 --> 00:40:03.369 unsubscribe from notifications, stop checking 00:40:03.369 --> 00:40:05.530 chat for a little bit, and then you just come 00:40:05.530 --> 00:40:07.929 back whenever it's on spot again. But I think 00:40:07.929 --> 00:40:10.989 because we kind of have that culture, it helps 00:40:10.989 --> 00:40:12.730 with longevity, right? Because you'll have people 00:40:12.730 --> 00:40:16.289 take breaks for weeks or months, but they can 00:40:16.289 --> 00:40:18.349 always just come right back, right? And so I've 00:40:18.349 --> 00:40:21.630 done that, even. um at different different periods 00:40:21.630 --> 00:40:25.170 is it just no ski part of the core team in in 00:40:25.170 --> 00:40:28.289 folky i don't know how to pronounce folky's name 00:40:28.289 --> 00:40:30.809 at all neither of them are part of the core team 00:40:30.809 --> 00:40:34.190 we have this um we have like a second so we so 00:40:34.190 --> 00:40:36.670 outside of the core team we have another the 00:40:36.670 --> 00:40:39.849 vip members i guess yeah like we call them at 00:40:39.849 --> 00:40:41.429 least i used to be called padawans i think we 00:40:41.429 --> 00:40:43.710 renamed the group but these are people that are 00:40:43.710 --> 00:40:45.989 members of the neo him organization on github 00:40:45.989 --> 00:40:49.889 so they have the ability to um like triage issues 00:40:49.889 --> 00:40:54.090 and stuff and they are involved in some like 00:40:54.090 --> 00:40:57.349 internal real -time chats that we have but they 00:40:57.349 --> 00:41:03.570 don't necessarily have the commit flag um so 00:41:03.570 --> 00:41:06.869 uh yeah evgeny is obviously an incredible contributor 00:41:06.869 --> 00:41:15.489 he's done a lot for the event but he's not I'm 00:41:15.489 --> 00:41:17.650 wondering if I'm misremembering. I'm wondering 00:41:17.650 --> 00:41:19.449 if he is part of the core team or not. Maybe 00:41:19.449 --> 00:41:23.170 he is. I could have just lied by accident. I'm 00:41:23.170 --> 00:41:26.250 not sure. I'm not sure if he is or not. He may 00:41:26.250 --> 00:41:30.769 be. I don't actually remember. But in any case, 00:41:30.909 --> 00:41:33.809 Folky is not. I know that for sure. Folky is 00:41:33.809 --> 00:41:38.130 actually not super involved in terms of like... 00:41:38.670 --> 00:41:42.289 the chats that we have. He does come in occasionally, 00:41:42.469 --> 00:41:45.630 but Foki mostly does his own thing. He'll sometimes 00:41:45.630 --> 00:41:49.429 get involved in GitHub chats and rarely get involved 00:41:49.429 --> 00:41:52.750 in our Matrix discussions, but not very often. 00:41:53.969 --> 00:41:57.550 Yeah, people were concerned as he disappears 00:41:57.550 --> 00:42:00.710 for quite a few months and then just appears. 00:42:00.789 --> 00:42:03.150 Yeah, I think he's retired, right? Like he's 00:42:03.150 --> 00:42:06.750 early retired and he just is like living his 00:42:06.750 --> 00:42:10.260 life. So I think he's just like off doing awesome 00:42:10.260 --> 00:42:12.619 stuff most of the time whenever he's gone. And 00:42:12.619 --> 00:42:14.880 then he comes back, contributes to his distro 00:42:14.880 --> 00:42:17.480 and his plugins and all that stuff and just takes 00:42:17.480 --> 00:42:20.500 a break again, I guess, right? Yeah, I think 00:42:20.500 --> 00:42:26.559 that's the deal. Okay, now talking about Folky, 00:42:26.719 --> 00:42:29.559 right? In our conversation previously, you mentioned 00:42:29.559 --> 00:42:35.539 that you use your own configuration to just install 00:42:35.539 --> 00:42:38.559 your plugins, basically. So you're not into plugin 00:42:38.559 --> 00:42:41.699 managers. Do you want to elaborate on that a 00:42:41.699 --> 00:42:49.239 little bit? Part of it for me is it's fun to 00:42:49.239 --> 00:42:55.320 do this stuff myself. So I'll look it up. I will 00:42:55.320 --> 00:42:58.579 a lot of times try to write code to implement 00:42:58.579 --> 00:43:02.099 a feature in NeoVim myself before using a plugin. 00:43:02.219 --> 00:43:04.840 That's one reason why I don't have that many 00:43:04.840 --> 00:43:07.360 plugins. There are some exceptions. Like, I really 00:43:07.360 --> 00:43:10.679 don't want to write my own, like, file picker 00:43:10.679 --> 00:43:14.800 thing, right? So I just use Afghani's from mini 00:43:14.800 --> 00:43:19.159 .invent. I really don't want to write, like, 00:43:19.159 --> 00:43:21.159 my own. I actually have thought about doing my 00:43:21.159 --> 00:43:23.980 own snippets engine, but I haven't done that. 00:43:24.059 --> 00:43:25.800 So I use, like, a snippets plugin for that. But 00:43:25.800 --> 00:43:28.579 for other things, I'll just do it myself. So 00:43:28.579 --> 00:43:29.920 I've, like, written a lot of tree server code. 00:43:31.039 --> 00:43:33.920 Like, I don't use it anymore because it was kind 00:43:33.920 --> 00:43:36.989 of flaky. but i might pull it back at some point 00:43:36.989 --> 00:43:38.849 because i kind of miss it but there's this plugin 00:43:38.849 --> 00:43:41.130 called like tree sitter context right where it 00:43:41.130 --> 00:43:44.849 shows you if the the beginning of a function 00:43:44.849 --> 00:43:47.050 is off of your screen and your cursor is inside 00:43:47.050 --> 00:43:49.530 of a function it shows you like the function 00:43:49.530 --> 00:43:51.889 signature a little floating window so you can 00:43:51.889 --> 00:43:54.389 see what the fucking signature is even if it's 00:43:54.389 --> 00:43:56.349 not on your screen there's a plugin that does 00:43:56.349 --> 00:43:58.809 that that's now maintained by lewis who's another 00:43:58.809 --> 00:44:02.150 core member but i was like i bet i can do that 00:44:02.150 --> 00:44:04.659 myself so i was I just wrote my own version. 00:44:05.300 --> 00:44:07.199 It's not like a pride thing. It's not like, oh, 00:44:07.300 --> 00:44:09.579 I think I can do it better. It's just like, okay, 00:44:09.699 --> 00:44:12.219 if I don't have, like when I'm writing it for 00:44:12.219 --> 00:44:14.380 myself, I don't have to support a thousand different 00:44:14.380 --> 00:44:16.599 use cases. I don't have to have all these configuration 00:44:16.599 --> 00:44:19.099 options. I can just make it do exactly what I 00:44:19.099 --> 00:44:21.280 want because I'm the only user. And when you 00:44:21.280 --> 00:44:23.679 have that, you can make things a lot smaller 00:44:23.679 --> 00:44:27.119 and a lot simpler. So code that is like potentially 00:44:27.119 --> 00:44:29.920 thousands of lines for a generic plugin that's 00:44:29.920 --> 00:44:32.210 meant to be used by everybody. can be maybe a 00:44:32.210 --> 00:44:34.170 couple hundred lines of code if it's just for 00:44:34.170 --> 00:44:38.510 you. So it's almost like a challenge. How can 00:44:38.510 --> 00:44:41.449 I do this myself and make it as simple and minimal 00:44:41.449 --> 00:44:44.170 as possible if I just keep it to my own constraints? 00:44:44.909 --> 00:44:46.389 So it was the same thing with the package manager. 00:44:46.730 --> 00:44:51.190 I didn't always use my own. I used Vimplug back 00:44:51.190 --> 00:44:53.829 when I was using Vim, and then Minpack was another 00:44:53.829 --> 00:44:58.889 one. And then when I switched to NeoVim, I used 00:44:58.889 --> 00:45:03.550 Packer for a little bit. Packer is now dead. 00:45:03.769 --> 00:45:05.750 It's not maintained anymore. But for a long time, 00:45:05.789 --> 00:45:09.130 Packer was the go -to package manager for Nuvem. 00:45:09.829 --> 00:45:13.050 And I always had a little bit of discomfort with 00:45:13.050 --> 00:45:14.889 it because it had all this extra stuff. You could 00:45:14.889 --> 00:45:19.969 compile your plugin list, which I still don't 00:45:19.969 --> 00:45:21.269 really understand what that means. But there 00:45:21.269 --> 00:45:24.250 was this command like Packer compile. And it 00:45:24.250 --> 00:45:26.070 had all these hooks for lazy loading and stuff. 00:45:26.759 --> 00:45:29.340 And both as a user, I remember thinking like, 00:45:29.400 --> 00:45:32.480 this just feels too complicated. And as a maintainer, 00:45:32.480 --> 00:45:34.880 seeing how many issues were caused by people 00:45:34.880 --> 00:45:39.159 doing all this fancy extraneous stuff, it really 00:45:39.159 --> 00:45:41.239 turned me off from the whole thing. I was like, 00:45:41.260 --> 00:45:45.460 this is just too complex for me. So I was like, 00:45:45.500 --> 00:45:48.460 a plugin manager doesn't need to do much. It 00:45:48.460 --> 00:45:51.900 just needs to essentially call git clone. And 00:45:51.900 --> 00:45:54.079 that's it, right? Because NeoVim knows how to 00:45:54.079 --> 00:45:56.250 load plugins itself. you just put it in the right 00:45:56.250 --> 00:45:58.670 directory and it gets loaded automatically all 00:45:58.670 --> 00:46:01.449 i have to do is get cloned to some path and what 00:46:01.449 --> 00:46:04.170 about the lazy loading like that's the thing 00:46:04.170 --> 00:46:06.769 that you know lazy does that loading on certain 00:46:06.769 --> 00:46:11.250 events and uh that's so i'll well okay so okay 00:46:11.250 --> 00:46:16.449 i have thoughts about this i'll say vim figured 00:46:16.449 --> 00:46:18.949 out lazy loading before any of them even existed 00:46:19.869 --> 00:46:22.409 Like Vim plugins, well -written Vim plugins, 00:46:22.590 --> 00:46:24.230 if you look at T -PoP plugins, for instance, 00:46:24.369 --> 00:46:28.349 most of them, anyway, they are auto -loaded, 00:46:28.349 --> 00:46:31.809 is the term Vim uses. So they are not loaded 00:46:31.809 --> 00:46:34.150 until they're needed, until the function is called. 00:46:34.670 --> 00:46:38.510 And Vim, a plugin can be written to do this without 00:46:38.510 --> 00:46:41.329 any help from a plugin manager. The plugin itself, 00:46:41.590 --> 00:46:44.989 right? So the plugin creator. So the idea is, 00:46:45.130 --> 00:46:48.250 the way that a Vim plugin works is just a directory 00:46:48.250 --> 00:46:50.480 with some files. with some subdirectories and 00:46:50.480 --> 00:46:53.980 some files. Any file under a directory called 00:46:53.980 --> 00:46:59.019 plugin gets interpreted and executed on startup. 00:46:59.480 --> 00:47:02.760 And then any file that's under a directory called 00:47:02.760 --> 00:47:08.059 autoload gets called on demand. And I'm talking 00:47:08.059 --> 00:47:09.480 about just old school Vim plugins right now. 00:47:10.320 --> 00:47:13.940 So a well -written Vim plugin has extremely minimal 00:47:13.940 --> 00:47:16.659 amount of code in this plugin directory. Maybe 00:47:16.659 --> 00:47:23.639 it defines a couple of plug key maps that users 00:47:23.639 --> 00:47:26.760 can then remap, or it might define some commands. 00:47:27.260 --> 00:47:29.900 But it doesn't define any functions. It doesn't 00:47:29.900 --> 00:47:33.400 do anything. So this code should take milliseconds, 00:47:33.920 --> 00:47:37.000 like sub -milliseconds to execute. It's very 00:47:37.000 --> 00:47:40.460 minimal. And then all your beefy code is in this 00:47:40.460 --> 00:47:42.579 autoload directory. So not until the user actually 00:47:42.579 --> 00:47:44.539 calls it does that code get loaded and executed. 00:47:45.239 --> 00:47:47.739 So the same concept exists in Lua. Instead of 00:47:47.739 --> 00:47:49.300 an autoload directory, you have it in the Lua 00:47:49.300 --> 00:47:52.019 directory and you call require or whatever. But 00:47:52.019 --> 00:47:54.760 what was happening in the NeoVim ecosystem with 00:47:54.760 --> 00:47:58.900 many Lua plugins was a couple of things. One 00:47:58.900 --> 00:48:02.380 was the proliferation of this setup pattern where 00:48:02.380 --> 00:48:06.139 to load a plugin, you would call require myplugin 00:48:06.139 --> 00:48:09.460 .setup. And what that would do is then call a 00:48:09.460 --> 00:48:12.320 bunch of these other modules. So you're executing 00:48:12.320 --> 00:48:15.250 tons and tons and tons of code. And the instructions 00:48:15.250 --> 00:48:18.050 for these plugins would tell you to do this on 00:48:18.050 --> 00:48:20.150 startup. And so people were seeing these plugins 00:48:20.150 --> 00:48:23.050 slow down their startup times. And just because 00:48:23.050 --> 00:48:26.150 they were, to be frank, written poorly, they 00:48:26.150 --> 00:48:28.449 weren't taking advantage of the mechanisms that 00:48:28.449 --> 00:48:32.150 Neo then gave it to run effectively. So what 00:48:32.150 --> 00:48:34.090 a plugin should do, if it wants to lazy load, 00:48:34.269 --> 00:48:39.010 is write the minimal, as little as possible as 00:48:39.010 --> 00:48:42.730 you can in this plugin file. And then everything 00:48:42.730 --> 00:48:45.510 else goes in your require, and you just call 00:48:45.510 --> 00:48:48.090 that when you need it. Another problem that you 00:48:48.090 --> 00:48:50.110 see is, and this is understandable, I understand 00:48:50.110 --> 00:48:52.630 why people do this, but let's say I have this, 00:48:52.730 --> 00:48:55.510 I'm writing a plugin file. I don't want to have 00:48:55.510 --> 00:48:58.070 to write require, I'm sharing my screen right 00:48:58.070 --> 00:49:01.769 now, just in case. People don't want to write 00:49:01.769 --> 00:49:05.449 require, let's say I have my function do stuff, 00:49:05.769 --> 00:49:12.099 and my plugin has this I got a lot to require 00:49:12.099 --> 00:49:16.659 require my plugin got sub modules, you know dot 00:49:16.659 --> 00:49:21.940 who dot You know do stuff Right, like that's 00:49:21.940 --> 00:49:23.960 a lot to write. So people will do is to say okay 00:49:23.960 --> 00:49:28.760 local foo equals require my plug -in sub module 00:49:28.760 --> 00:49:32.000 dot foo right and I understand we'll do this 00:49:32.000 --> 00:49:36.980 because this is if you're writing like rust or 00:49:36.980 --> 00:49:40.969 or JavaScript, right? This is what you do. You 00:49:40.969 --> 00:49:43.590 import modules at the top level so that you can 00:49:43.590 --> 00:49:45.230 refer to them by a shorthand in your function. 00:49:45.750 --> 00:49:47.789 But in Lua, what this does is that when your 00:49:47.789 --> 00:49:51.349 code is executed, you are calling this require 00:49:51.349 --> 00:49:54.150 here as soon as the script is executed. It's 00:49:54.150 --> 00:49:56.869 not happening when you call doStuff. It's happening 00:49:56.869 --> 00:50:01.510 when the file is loaded. So this is an area, 00:50:01.670 --> 00:50:04.809 this is, I think, one reason that this has been 00:50:04.809 --> 00:50:07.340 more of a problem in Lua is just because People 00:50:07.340 --> 00:50:09.300 naturally want to do this pattern. And again, 00:50:09.380 --> 00:50:14.659 I understand why. But that ends up hurting the 00:50:14.659 --> 00:50:16.300 lazy loading, right? Because you're not lazy 00:50:16.300 --> 00:50:18.300 loading it now. You're loading it up front instead 00:50:18.300 --> 00:50:20.460 of on demand. So what you should do is instead 00:50:20.460 --> 00:50:23.539 something like this. But that's obviously a pain 00:50:23.539 --> 00:50:28.079 to write. So I get why people don't do it. Anyway, 00:50:28.179 --> 00:50:33.219 so people started writing plugins using these 00:50:33.219 --> 00:50:35.679 patterns. And people noticed that their startup 00:50:35.679 --> 00:50:39.099 times were getting slower. And then plugin managers 00:50:39.099 --> 00:50:41.639 then recreated this concept of lazy loading that 00:50:41.639 --> 00:50:44.840 already existed in Neobim. And now that responsibility 00:50:44.840 --> 00:50:46.940 was on the plugin manager, which has increased, 00:50:47.079 --> 00:50:50.500 added more complexity because now we're loading 00:50:50.500 --> 00:50:52.320 these plugins at different points instead of 00:50:52.320 --> 00:50:55.579 loading them up front and letting Neobim do the 00:50:55.579 --> 00:50:58.739 lazy loading as necessary. So I was just like, 00:50:58.820 --> 00:51:00.820 whatever, I'm not going to. So I'm also like 00:51:00.820 --> 00:51:03.210 very, very. picky about the plugins I install. 00:51:03.469 --> 00:51:05.570 I read the source code, and I'm like, if you're 00:51:05.570 --> 00:51:07.869 putting a bunch of... If you're going to slow 00:51:07.869 --> 00:51:09.309 down my startup time because it's not written 00:51:09.309 --> 00:51:14.989 well, I'm not going to install it. Any plugin 00:51:14.989 --> 00:51:18.469 that requires me to call .setup, I almost always 00:51:18.469 --> 00:51:23.789 will not use it. But many .envim is the one exception 00:51:23.789 --> 00:51:27.239 to this. Evgeny knows how I feel about this. 00:51:27.300 --> 00:51:28.760 We've talked about this a lot. We've kind of 00:51:28.760 --> 00:51:31.900 just agreed to disagree, basically. You couldn't 00:51:31.900 --> 00:51:34.400 convince him. I couldn't convince him. He has 00:51:34.400 --> 00:51:36.739 counter -arguments. If he's watching this, he 00:51:36.739 --> 00:51:38.920 will probably... He will probably. He's shaking 00:51:38.920 --> 00:51:44.000 his fist. He's not representing the counter -arguments. 00:51:44.179 --> 00:51:48.219 But the code I have for many, I do make exceptions. 00:51:48.920 --> 00:51:51.260 I'd call... Well, this is kind of hard to read 00:51:51.260 --> 00:51:53.920 because it has a macro, but I do call setup. 00:51:54.459 --> 00:51:58.139 for mini .inven. So I make an exception for Evgeny, 00:51:58.159 --> 00:52:01.760 but I also trust him. I know his plugins are 00:52:01.760 --> 00:52:04.380 written well, so I always make an exception there. 00:52:05.139 --> 00:52:07.079 Anyway, that's kind of like my mini rant. So 00:52:07.079 --> 00:52:09.679 we were talking about package managers. Yeah, 00:52:09.699 --> 00:52:11.159 so they kept getting increasingly complicated. 00:52:11.920 --> 00:52:14.960 And I don't mean to disparage, right? I'm not 00:52:14.960 --> 00:52:17.679 trying to... I don't mean to dunk on people or 00:52:17.679 --> 00:52:20.530 whatever. We're talking about... editor plugins, 00:52:20.769 --> 00:52:23.150 right? This is the lowest stakes thing possible 00:52:23.150 --> 00:52:25.070 to talk about. People can do whatever they want. 00:52:25.309 --> 00:52:29.449 It's for fun. But for my own personal taste, 00:52:29.650 --> 00:52:31.829 it was just too much. It was too complex. It 00:52:31.829 --> 00:52:34.250 was too much going on. So I was like, we don't 00:52:34.250 --> 00:52:38.190 need a lot here. I can do... I can satisfy what 00:52:38.190 --> 00:52:42.190 I need in a shell script. Like 100 lines of code, 00:52:42.289 --> 00:52:44.789 100 lines of shell. So that's what I did. That's 00:52:44.789 --> 00:52:47.349 all I use now. You know your way around NeoBIM 00:52:47.349 --> 00:52:49.980 quite well. You created your own Package manager, 00:52:50.239 --> 00:52:53.099 we could say. But what about someone just joining 00:52:53.099 --> 00:52:55.099 from VS Code that is used to the marketplace 00:52:55.099 --> 00:52:57.059 or whatever that's called where you install the 00:52:57.059 --> 00:53:00.500 plugins, right? They're not going to write their 00:53:00.500 --> 00:53:03.760 own plugin manager. They will not know how to 00:53:03.760 --> 00:53:08.320 load plugins and all that stuff. So do you think 00:53:08.320 --> 00:53:12.679 a plugin manager like Lacey could be useful in 00:53:12.679 --> 00:53:16.840 that case? Someone completely new, right? Or 00:53:16.840 --> 00:53:20.039 what? What are your thoughts there? I do think 00:53:20.039 --> 00:53:22.500 having an easy -to -use... So this was a big 00:53:22.500 --> 00:53:25.360 motivation behind adding the package manager, 00:53:25.420 --> 00:53:27.420 the plugin manager, into having a native one 00:53:27.420 --> 00:53:30.420 in NeoVim, which we've been talking about Evgeny 00:53:30.420 --> 00:53:32.840 a lot, but that's something else he did. He upstreamed 00:53:32.840 --> 00:53:37.119 a version of his many .debs into NeoVim. So NeoVim 00:53:37.119 --> 00:53:42.820 has a package manager now called vim .pack. I 00:53:42.820 --> 00:53:45.539 don't know why that didn't work. Okay, it looks 00:53:45.539 --> 00:53:51.139 like my... There it is. So Newton has a package 00:53:51.139 --> 00:53:54.599 manager now. And a big reason for adding this, 00:53:54.719 --> 00:53:57.400 this was a thing that was talked about a lot 00:53:57.400 --> 00:54:00.480 over the years internally. Should we provide 00:54:00.480 --> 00:54:03.219 this? And it was never clear the answer was yes, 00:54:03.280 --> 00:54:05.400 right? Because it was like, okay, that's more 00:54:05.400 --> 00:54:07.679 code to maintain, right? We don't want to add 00:54:07.679 --> 00:54:10.280 everything under the sun, right? We have to have 00:54:10.280 --> 00:54:13.480 some... There should be some threshold or some 00:54:13.480 --> 00:54:15.159 barrier to what gets added, and it has to be 00:54:15.159 --> 00:54:18.019 a compelling reason. And the compelling reason, 00:54:18.119 --> 00:54:24.260 in my opinion, was that we were seeing, especially 00:54:24.260 --> 00:54:28.119 with LSP, right? Like for many, many years, the 00:54:28.119 --> 00:54:32.119 story was NeoVim has a built -in LSP client. 00:54:33.019 --> 00:54:38.019 And yet it was, for most users, almost a requirement 00:54:38.019 --> 00:54:41.000 to then install nvim -lsp -config. I mean, unless 00:54:41.000 --> 00:54:42.539 you were willing to write like a bunch of low 00:54:42.539 --> 00:54:45.469 code, you had to install. nvm -lsp -config, this 00:54:45.469 --> 00:54:48.289 plugin. And it wasn't a third -party plugin. 00:54:48.349 --> 00:54:49.750 It was under the NeoVim umbrella, but you still 00:54:49.750 --> 00:54:51.949 had to install it, right? It didn't come with 00:54:51.949 --> 00:54:55.389 NeoVim. So we were telling users, like, hey, 00:54:55.449 --> 00:54:58.769 NeoVim has LSP included. It comes out of the 00:54:58.769 --> 00:55:00.750 box. But that was kind of a lie, right? Because 00:55:00.750 --> 00:55:03.010 it really wasn't. You had to install NeoVim. 00:55:03.610 --> 00:55:05.230 If you're a brand new user coming from VS Code, 00:55:05.389 --> 00:55:07.409 you had to install NeoVim. And then you have 00:55:07.409 --> 00:55:09.789 to go install nvm -lsp -config. And it's like, 00:55:09.789 --> 00:55:11.800 how do you do that? Now I have to go learn about 00:55:11.800 --> 00:55:13.860 package plugin managers. Now I have to pick a 00:55:13.860 --> 00:55:16.300 plugin manager. And I have to learn how to install 00:55:16.300 --> 00:55:19.380 this plugin using this plugin. It's all this 00:55:19.380 --> 00:55:23.360 extra stuff. And this was contributing to this 00:55:23.360 --> 00:55:25.940 idea and this perception that NeoVim is really 00:55:25.940 --> 00:55:29.460 complicated and hard to set up, which is kind 00:55:29.460 --> 00:55:32.260 of fair. So that was a big motivating factor 00:55:32.260 --> 00:55:34.659 to upstream this, right? Because you want to 00:55:34.659 --> 00:55:37.099 be able to say, you can literally just write 00:55:37.099 --> 00:55:40.860 this code in your... in it .lua file and and 00:55:40.860 --> 00:55:42.679 that's all i have to do like for a brand new 00:55:42.679 --> 00:55:45.059 user from vs code just copy paste these few lines 00:55:45.059 --> 00:55:49.179 you're good to go and the addition of vim .pack 00:55:49.179 --> 00:55:53.960 gets us a lot closer to that reality now um if 00:55:53.960 --> 00:55:57.000 someone wants to use lazy or whatever i am again 00:55:57.000 --> 00:55:58.559 this is like do whatever you want i'm not the 00:55:58.559 --> 00:56:00.699 boss i'm not like your editor mom or dad right 00:56:00.699 --> 00:56:02.800 like i'm not going to come like knocking on your 00:56:02.800 --> 00:56:05.019 door saying how dare like I'm talking about my 00:56:05.019 --> 00:56:08.619 own personal preferences and stylistic preferences 00:56:08.619 --> 00:56:13.780 or whatever, but that's totally subjective. If 00:56:13.780 --> 00:56:16.440 using lazy or even one of these distributions 00:56:16.440 --> 00:56:21.760 like NVChat or LazyVim makes it easier, that's 00:56:21.760 --> 00:56:24.900 what you like to do, by all means. I know a ton 00:56:24.900 --> 00:56:27.400 of users use LazyVim, and Folky's done an amazing 00:56:27.400 --> 00:56:32.280 job with that. Folky's responsible for a lot 00:56:32.280 --> 00:56:34.969 of... NeoVim's user growth. I'm not going to 00:56:34.969 --> 00:56:39.110 pretend otherwise, right? So I think to me as 00:56:39.110 --> 00:56:41.269 a core team member, it is a little bit of an 00:56:41.269 --> 00:56:45.289 indication that we have work to do to make NeoVim 00:56:45.289 --> 00:56:51.929 itself, like the independent project, more approachable 00:56:51.929 --> 00:56:54.369 and beginner -friendly. I think we've come quite 00:56:54.369 --> 00:56:57.710 a long way there, especially with LSP over the 00:56:57.710 --> 00:56:59.849 last couple of versions, and vim .pack is going 00:56:59.849 --> 00:57:02.670 to get us even further on that road. But there's 00:57:02.670 --> 00:57:06.730 still there's still more we can do. Make things 00:57:06.730 --> 00:57:09.610 easier. This whole thing was like really made 00:57:09.610 --> 00:57:12.030 very clear to me when I helped a co -worker switch 00:57:12.030 --> 00:57:15.409 to any of them. And I was I was sitting with 00:57:15.409 --> 00:57:18.130 him like in person. I was there in the office 00:57:18.130 --> 00:57:21.550 next to him. And I was like having to like I 00:57:21.550 --> 00:57:24.269 was like feeling his frustration in person. And 00:57:24.269 --> 00:57:26.710 I was like felt guilty. I was like I was like 00:57:26.710 --> 00:57:28.949 this is partially my fault. This is so complicated. 00:57:29.090 --> 00:57:31.170 Right. like that there's all these steps involved 00:57:31.170 --> 00:57:33.849 and i was like almost like apologizing but after 00:57:33.849 --> 00:57:35.650 that experience i was like this has this has 00:57:35.650 --> 00:57:38.630 to get better like this is just not yeah it's 00:57:38.630 --> 00:57:41.230 not good enough when you install neovim you know 00:57:41.230 --> 00:57:43.989 default neovim you open it you see the black 00:57:43.989 --> 00:57:48.219 screen and it's like so what is this But if you 00:57:48.219 --> 00:57:50.539 watch videos and you watch LazyVim, you get that 00:57:50.539 --> 00:57:53.179 little dashboard that, you know, it's not useful 00:57:53.179 --> 00:57:55.599 at all because I just opened my picker when I 00:57:55.599 --> 00:57:58.460 have the dashboard open, my picker. But now I 00:57:58.460 --> 00:58:00.800 know about that. I think it's a little bit more 00:58:00.800 --> 00:58:04.320 friendly and more welcoming than just a default 00:58:04.320 --> 00:58:07.440 NeoVim screen. You're like, what am I supposed 00:58:07.440 --> 00:58:12.619 to do here, right? Yeah, this is pretty utilitarian. 00:58:13.630 --> 00:58:16.110 Yeah, but it's flexible. It gives you options, 00:58:16.309 --> 00:58:18.650 right? So it gives you the base, then you do 00:58:18.650 --> 00:58:20.789 whatever you want with it. Is that like the goal 00:58:20.789 --> 00:58:27.750 as well? Yeah, so that's a good question. I'll 00:58:27.750 --> 00:58:29.289 answer that a little bit more broadly, like in 00:58:29.289 --> 00:58:32.550 terms of general design philosophy. So NeoVim, 00:58:32.610 --> 00:58:35.710 I think kind of sits, there's a spectrum between 00:58:35.710 --> 00:58:40.429 editors that are pretty much stable, don't change 00:58:40.429 --> 00:58:43.239 a lot. their users are happy exactly how it is, 00:58:43.280 --> 00:58:48.179 to extremely experimental, cutting -edge early 00:58:48.179 --> 00:58:50.860 adopters. People want to use the hot new thing. 00:58:51.199 --> 00:58:54.639 So on one end, you have Vim, which is extremely 00:58:54.639 --> 00:58:58.219 stable and basically never makes any breaking 00:58:58.219 --> 00:59:00.880 changes. And when they do, their users are very 00:59:00.880 --> 00:59:03.840 upset about it. And then on the other side of 00:59:03.840 --> 00:59:06.300 the spectrum, you might have Helix, where Helix 00:59:06.300 --> 00:59:10.670 is used by a lot of people that are not afraid 00:59:10.670 --> 00:59:13.070 to try new things, or Capcom is another one, 00:59:13.150 --> 00:59:16.750 that want to try new ideas. NeoVim sits somewhere 00:59:16.750 --> 00:59:20.190 in the middle, where we are more than willing 00:59:20.190 --> 00:59:22.050 to, I shouldn't say more than willing, we're 00:59:22.050 --> 00:59:26.150 more willing than Vim to make changes, although 00:59:26.150 --> 00:59:29.769 we don't do that flippantly. We try to avoid 00:59:29.769 --> 00:59:32.929 that when we can. But we want to add new features, 00:59:33.110 --> 00:59:36.429 we want to improve defaults, understanding that 00:59:36.429 --> 00:59:41.210 doing so will break some users' workflows. At 00:59:41.210 --> 00:59:45.030 the same time, we also have a lot of this... 00:59:45.030 --> 00:59:49.070 We don't want to... We're not total revolutionaries, 00:59:49.110 --> 00:59:51.969 right? We also want to respect people that know 00:59:51.969 --> 00:59:55.429 Vim, have used Vim. We embrace our Vim heritage, 00:59:55.670 --> 01:00:00.630 so to speak. We are unapologetically a Vim fork, 01:00:00.809 --> 01:00:06.530 right? So there's some things that we... we do 01:00:06.530 --> 01:00:08.969 a little more cautiously because we want to maintain 01:00:08.969 --> 01:00:12.510 that minimalism that Vim is known for, the fast 01:00:12.510 --> 01:00:15.170 startup times. And of course, Helix is that too. 01:00:15.250 --> 01:00:17.650 Helix is very fast and minimal, and I think they've 01:00:17.650 --> 01:00:20.469 done a great job with their editor. But you do 01:00:20.469 --> 01:00:22.949 see a lot of people that struggle to move to 01:00:22.949 --> 01:00:25.809 Helix because they want to keep using the Vim 01:00:25.809 --> 01:00:30.849 bindings. Have you tried Helix? Sorry to interrupt 01:00:30.849 --> 01:00:33.869 you there. I have tried Helix. I think it's extremely 01:00:33.869 --> 01:00:37.730 well done. I'll say if in an alternative timeline, 01:00:38.050 --> 01:00:41.369 when I was just starting out with Vim, if Helix 01:00:41.369 --> 01:00:43.969 had existed at the time, I think it's very likely 01:00:43.969 --> 01:00:47.650 I would have just used Helix. I just have almost 01:00:47.650 --> 01:00:50.929 10 years, a decade under my belt using Vim at 01:00:50.929 --> 01:00:54.389 this point. And when I tried Helix, it didn't 01:00:54.389 --> 01:00:58.170 take me long to run into... like something I 01:00:58.170 --> 01:01:01.050 wanted to do but couldn't do. And I find the 01:01:01.050 --> 01:01:04.909 scriptability of NeoVim such a superpower now 01:01:04.909 --> 01:01:07.329 that not being able to do that would be, I would 01:01:07.329 --> 01:01:09.610 find, severely limiting. But I think that's what 01:01:09.610 --> 01:01:13.630 Helix users like. They don't want the scriptability. 01:01:13.829 --> 01:01:15.670 They don't want to have to install plugins, right? 01:01:15.750 --> 01:01:17.110 They like that everything is part of the core. 01:01:17.409 --> 01:01:19.710 Did you get used to visual mode in Helix? Because 01:01:19.710 --> 01:01:21.889 it's not visual mode, it's select mode or something 01:01:21.889 --> 01:01:25.190 like that. So did you get used to that? I didn't 01:01:25.190 --> 01:01:29.030 use it enough to get used to it, but I do think 01:01:29.030 --> 01:01:33.949 it's a good model. In hindsight, I wish Bill 01:01:33.949 --> 01:01:36.710 Joy, when he wrote VI, had done that instead 01:01:36.710 --> 01:01:41.449 of normal mode first or whatever that Vim has. 01:01:41.750 --> 01:01:44.769 I think modal editing in general is a huge improvement 01:01:44.769 --> 01:01:48.329 over the alternative. But being able to have 01:01:48.329 --> 01:01:52.780 visual mode first, I think, is probably... better 01:01:52.780 --> 01:01:57.039 than what Vim has. But ultimately, it what's 01:01:57.039 --> 01:01:58.579 going to be better for each person is what their 01:01:58.579 --> 01:02:03.980 muscle memory is used to. Right. So. Local. We 01:02:03.980 --> 01:02:06.199 learned to say about Helix, though, is I know 01:02:06.199 --> 01:02:09.300 that they are they either are about to or already 01:02:09.300 --> 01:02:14.880 have introduced scripting through using a list 01:02:14.880 --> 01:02:17.079 of some some scheme variant of all things, which 01:02:17.079 --> 01:02:21.199 is like targeted at me. it was very compelling 01:02:21.199 --> 01:02:25.760 to me but i do wonder when helix opens the door 01:02:25.760 --> 01:02:29.960 to scripting if the the reputation that helix 01:02:29.960 --> 01:02:32.760 has as just working and not having to install 01:02:32.760 --> 01:02:35.039 a bunch of plugins will persist right because 01:02:35.039 --> 01:02:36.960 once the door opens to plugins and scriptability 01:02:36.960 --> 01:02:39.820 then you have to start thinking about plug -in 01:02:39.820 --> 01:02:43.280 compatibility and people depending on plugins 01:02:43.280 --> 01:02:45.059 that are written by third parties that are not 01:02:45.059 --> 01:02:48.050 up to the same quality standard yep That are 01:02:48.050 --> 01:02:50.250 not going to be maintained, probably, and they're 01:02:50.250 --> 01:02:53.030 going to cause a lot of issues. So I'm curious 01:02:53.030 --> 01:02:56.610 to see if, I don't know, five years from now, 01:02:56.650 --> 01:02:58.889 ten years from now, if Helix is still around, 01:02:59.070 --> 01:03:02.570 if the situation is any better or worse than 01:03:02.570 --> 01:03:04.469 what NeoVim is today. That would be an interesting 01:03:04.469 --> 01:03:10.130 experiment. I also have experimented with Zed. 01:03:10.230 --> 01:03:13.090 It's hard not to, right? With how much hype it 01:03:13.090 --> 01:03:18.730 has. I think that itself is fine. I don't have 01:03:18.730 --> 01:03:22.449 any complaints about the editor. At this point, 01:03:22.469 --> 01:03:26.909 my development model is so built into being terminal 01:03:26.909 --> 01:03:31.469 first, shell first, but having my editor be outside 01:03:31.469 --> 01:03:36.110 of that just feels extremely limiting. I just 01:03:36.110 --> 01:03:39.510 couldn't get used to it. If I was dedicated and 01:03:39.510 --> 01:03:41.210 was like, I'm going to do this and I'm going 01:03:41.210 --> 01:03:43.869 to force myself to do it for seven days straight 01:03:43.869 --> 01:03:46.269 or something, I probably could adapt to it, but 01:03:46.269 --> 01:03:48.969 why? I don't know. I don't have a compelling 01:03:48.969 --> 01:03:51.670 reason to do that. That's something similar to 01:03:51.670 --> 01:03:53.969 what happened to me in Obsidian, you know, because 01:03:53.969 --> 01:03:57.130 I used Obsidian for my notes for a long time. 01:03:57.170 --> 01:04:00.369 I loved the tool, but then I tried NeoVim, then 01:04:00.369 --> 01:04:02.929 I jumped into the terminal full, you know, now 01:04:02.929 --> 01:04:06.780 I do my notes in NeoVim. So I... Cannot open 01:04:06.780 --> 01:04:08.559 another application because it's disruptive, 01:04:08.880 --> 01:04:11.099 right? It's like, man, so I have to go to this 01:04:11.099 --> 01:04:13.300 other application. It has different key bindings. 01:04:13.300 --> 01:04:15.239 It doesn't have all of my emotions and all that. 01:04:15.340 --> 01:04:20.079 So I guess something similar, right? Exactly. 01:04:20.159 --> 01:04:27.619 Yeah. Okay. And I was going to ask you. I see 01:04:27.619 --> 01:04:30.159 in Reddit that there's plugins, new plugins all 01:04:30.159 --> 01:04:32.880 the time that are being released. So, hey, I 01:04:32.880 --> 01:04:36.079 have this new file picker. I have this new whatever. 01:04:36.360 --> 01:04:38.719 What are your thoughts on all of these versions 01:04:38.719 --> 01:04:42.019 of plugins? Are you okay with a lot of plugins 01:04:42.019 --> 01:04:44.219 being created that you don't know if they're 01:04:44.219 --> 01:04:47.000 going to be maintained or not? They're fun projects 01:04:47.000 --> 01:04:49.480 for the people creating them. But do you have 01:04:49.480 --> 01:04:50.820 any thoughts, anything you want to share about 01:04:50.820 --> 01:04:53.760 that? I think it's great. I totally understand 01:04:53.760 --> 01:04:55.539 when people create something, wanting to share 01:04:55.539 --> 01:04:58.440 it. People should keep doing that, keep sharing 01:04:58.440 --> 01:05:02.659 it. And I think the NeoVim community, I don't 01:05:02.659 --> 01:05:04.880 spend a ton of time on the NeoVim subreddit, 01:05:04.980 --> 01:05:07.880 but from what I have, it seems like people are 01:05:07.880 --> 01:05:10.340 generally pretty supportive of people writing 01:05:10.340 --> 01:05:11.980 new plugins, right? So I think that's great. 01:05:12.079 --> 01:05:13.559 I think it's great that people can share stuff 01:05:13.559 --> 01:05:17.119 and get good feedback. I'll also say, if you're 01:05:17.119 --> 01:05:19.300 a plugin writer, it's okay to write stuff just 01:05:19.300 --> 01:05:23.320 for yourself. Not everything has to be on GitHub. 01:05:24.000 --> 01:05:27.309 Write your own. features in NeoVim that are just 01:05:27.309 --> 01:05:31.650 for you. Turn it into your editor. Writing plugins 01:05:31.650 --> 01:05:36.170 is not hard. You have to learn NeoVim's API, 01:05:36.570 --> 01:05:38.650 which, like anything, you have to learn your 01:05:38.650 --> 01:05:42.289 way around. If you're not used to it, it'll take 01:05:42.289 --> 01:05:43.889 some work because you'll be like, okay, I don't 01:05:43.889 --> 01:05:45.309 know how to do this. I have to find the right 01:05:45.309 --> 01:05:49.269 function to do it. You figure it out. If you're 01:05:49.269 --> 01:05:52.250 a professional software engineer, it's well, 01:05:52.250 --> 01:05:54.929 well, well within your capabilities to write. 01:05:55.320 --> 01:05:58.800 a plugin for neobim and remember that um like 01:05:58.800 --> 01:06:04.219 so i'll share my screen again um if if you're 01:06:04.219 --> 01:06:06.840 just a regular user you have your you know config 01:06:06.840 --> 01:06:10.079 .mv file that has your init .lua or your init 01:06:10.079 --> 01:06:12.320 .bin or whatever all you have to do to write 01:06:12.320 --> 01:06:15.780 your own plugin is write a file into the plugin 01:06:15.780 --> 01:06:19.659 directory call it my cool plugin whatever dot 01:06:19.659 --> 01:06:25.840 lua and write some code Okay? I just wrote a 01:06:25.840 --> 01:06:28.079 plugin. When I start, well, that was a bad example, 01:06:28.199 --> 01:06:31.699 but there it is. It printed hello world, right? 01:06:31.860 --> 01:06:35.519 That took me five seconds. Now, of course, writing 01:06:35.519 --> 01:06:37.420 a real plugin is a lot more work than that because 01:06:37.420 --> 01:06:40.340 you're not just going to print something. But 01:06:40.340 --> 01:06:45.679 my point is that it's really easy to modify NeoVim 01:06:45.679 --> 01:06:47.360 if you're a NeoVim user yourself. You don't have 01:06:47.360 --> 01:06:49.039 to rely on other people writing plugins for you. 01:06:49.159 --> 01:06:52.679 Just go to your config .config slash invent directory. 01:06:53.389 --> 01:06:55.550 and put something in the plugin folder. That's 01:06:55.550 --> 01:06:58.530 all you got to do. And make any of them your 01:06:58.530 --> 01:07:02.510 own. I have tons of files in here, all the different 01:07:02.510 --> 01:07:09.809 stuff. One thing I have is in these file type 01:07:09.809 --> 01:07:14.989 -specific plugins, like for C, for example. I 01:07:14.989 --> 01:07:17.329 don't write a lot of C today, but I have in the 01:07:17.329 --> 01:07:21.099 past. And one thing that I have to do... is I 01:07:21.099 --> 01:07:23.280 have this function that I wrote called setPath. 01:07:23.760 --> 01:07:27.519 And it's in a Lua module, so I call require. 01:07:28.039 --> 01:07:35.760 Okay, so that is in this ft .c file. And I won't 01:07:35.760 --> 01:07:38.380 walk through all this code. That's not the point 01:07:38.380 --> 01:07:41.460 here. But all this does is it looks in the current 01:07:41.460 --> 01:07:43.760 directory to see if there's a compilecommands 01:07:43.760 --> 01:07:47.980 .json file. If there is, it reads it into NeoVim, 01:07:48.079 --> 01:07:51.619 parses it as JSON, reads through it, and sets 01:07:51.619 --> 01:07:58.159 the path option. And path is used to find files 01:07:58.159 --> 01:08:01.840 and stuff using GF and other things. And this 01:08:01.840 --> 01:08:04.599 is, I don't know, it's like, my point of sharing 01:08:04.599 --> 01:08:06.579 that example is I had this idea. I'm like, oh, 01:08:06.599 --> 01:08:08.179 wouldn't it be useful? Wouldn't it be cool if 01:08:08.179 --> 01:08:10.639 I could just have NeoVim automatically read and 01:08:10.639 --> 01:08:13.059 parse these compile commands dot JSON files and 01:08:13.059 --> 01:08:15.679 have it automatically set the path option in 01:08:15.679 --> 01:08:17.930 NeoVim? i was like yeah that would be cool so 01:08:17.930 --> 01:08:19.909 i just went and did it right like that that's 01:08:19.909 --> 01:08:21.550 the point i'm trying to make is if you have an 01:08:21.550 --> 01:08:23.210 idea of something that you want your editor to 01:08:23.210 --> 01:08:26.670 do just like you have the power to do it that's 01:08:26.670 --> 01:08:29.890 like the amazing thing about about uh having 01:08:29.890 --> 01:08:33.689 a scriptable editor is that it's this it's this 01:08:33.689 --> 01:08:37.310 malleable thing that you can modify and and change 01:08:37.310 --> 01:08:39.270 to your will so i encourage people to do that 01:08:39.270 --> 01:08:41.350 share it by all means if you want to if you think 01:08:41.350 --> 01:08:43.829 it's useful for other people share it but i mentioned 01:08:43.829 --> 01:08:47.310 this earlier too if you don't share it and make 01:08:47.310 --> 01:08:49.390 it just for your use cases and just for your 01:08:49.390 --> 01:08:51.670 needs and you're the only user, you can do whatever 01:08:51.670 --> 01:08:54.090 you want. You can make breaking changes. You 01:08:54.090 --> 01:08:56.590 don't have to support configuration options, 01:08:56.770 --> 01:08:58.710 right? You don't have to write good error messages. 01:08:59.569 --> 01:09:02.310 Just write exactly the code that you need and 01:09:02.310 --> 01:09:05.989 it'll be a lot more fun too. Now, would you like 01:09:05.989 --> 01:09:09.090 or would you mind sharing about the NeoVim plugin 01:09:09.090 --> 01:09:12.010 manager that you mentioned? Like I use LazyVim 01:09:12.010 --> 01:09:16.260 and I use the Lazy. and been plugin manager of 01:09:16.260 --> 01:09:20.680 course right so um how do i install plugins in 01:09:20.680 --> 01:09:22.779 this thing because i didn't even know about that 01:09:22.779 --> 01:09:27.279 to be honest so i i just called a shell script 01:09:27.279 --> 01:09:34.199 called pack up pack update was the idea uh but 01:09:34.199 --> 01:09:37.300 um again i won't walk through the code but essentially 01:09:37.300 --> 01:09:42.260 all it does is here i can oh no Is this the one 01:09:42.260 --> 01:09:44.619 that was released in Neobim that you just talked 01:09:44.619 --> 01:09:47.760 about? Oh, that makes more sense. I was like, 01:09:47.859 --> 01:09:49.579 I can just talk about mine if you want, but it's 01:09:49.579 --> 01:09:54.340 okay. Yeah, so this is called BIMPACK. So there's 01:09:54.340 --> 01:09:56.359 a big warning here, work in progress. This is 01:09:56.359 --> 01:09:59.819 only on the master branch, so people that are 01:09:59.819 --> 01:10:01.819 running it. So it's not released yet, right? 01:10:01.920 --> 01:10:05.760 Not released yet, no. There's some examples here. 01:10:06.640 --> 01:10:09.890 To be honest, I actually haven't... used it yet. 01:10:10.010 --> 01:10:13.930 I reviewed the PR when it went in, but I'm not 01:10:13.930 --> 01:10:16.630 the most qualified person to talk about how it 01:10:16.630 --> 01:10:19.930 works. But the syntax here is probably fairly 01:10:19.930 --> 01:10:22.989 familiar to anyone who's used other plugin managers. 01:10:23.229 --> 01:10:27.310 But compared to lazy .mvim, it's substantially 01:10:27.310 --> 01:10:30.430 similar. There's no lazy loading. You can't say 01:10:30.430 --> 01:10:33.109 load on when I execute this hook or something. 01:10:33.510 --> 01:10:37.170 All it does is clone some repos to a certain 01:10:37.170 --> 01:10:45.140 path. So you rely on the plugin creator to write 01:10:45.140 --> 01:10:47.640 it correctly so that it loads at the right time, 01:10:47.720 --> 01:10:55.000 right? It kind of depends. If the plugin you're 01:10:55.000 --> 01:10:57.220 using says you have to call a .setup or whatever, 01:10:57.420 --> 01:11:01.340 then you're going to have to call the setup function. 01:11:01.500 --> 01:11:03.340 That's the way the plugin expects to be loaded. 01:11:03.819 --> 01:11:06.399 And if you want to do that... If you want to 01:11:06.399 --> 01:11:10.020 defer that until a certain event, then you'll 01:11:10.020 --> 01:11:12.159 either have to write the lazy loading code yourself 01:11:12.159 --> 01:11:21.380 or keep using lazy .invent. So this is my admonition 01:11:21.380 --> 01:11:24.340 to plugin writers everywhere. If you're writing 01:11:24.340 --> 01:11:25.899 a plugin, you should be doing the lazy loading 01:11:25.899 --> 01:11:27.920 yourself. Don't rely on the plugin manager to 01:11:27.920 --> 01:11:31.619 do it for you. Stop using .setup, for instance. 01:11:35.530 --> 01:11:38.850 But yeah, so Evgeny wrote this. This is based 01:11:38.850 --> 01:11:41.829 on his mini .debs package manager. I think it's 01:11:41.829 --> 01:11:44.109 a little bit simplified. I wish I could give 01:11:44.109 --> 01:11:47.909 you a demo, but I don't use it right now. So 01:11:47.909 --> 01:11:50.750 I can't actually give you a demo using it. Yeah, 01:11:50.850 --> 01:11:53.449 maybe when it's released and it's part of Neobim. 01:11:53.510 --> 01:11:55.989 It's in beta, it seems, right now, correct? Yeah. 01:11:56.590 --> 01:12:03.750 Okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. No worries. Thanks. Talking 01:12:03.750 --> 01:12:06.520 about... Extensibility, NeoVim extensibility. 01:12:06.960 --> 01:12:10.220 I mentioned Prat, you know, I had the call with 01:12:10.220 --> 01:12:14.100 him yesterday. He's a huge representative of 01:12:14.100 --> 01:12:18.159 the Emacs community, right? And Emacs users like 01:12:18.159 --> 01:12:22.600 extending their, what is Emacs, operating system 01:12:22.600 --> 01:12:25.800 or whatever it is, right? To do basically everything 01:12:25.800 --> 01:12:31.779 for them. And I like that about NeoVim because... 01:12:32.399 --> 01:12:35.520 images is a big part of my workflow. For my blog 01:12:35.520 --> 01:12:38.659 post, I like pasting images, you know, from my 01:12:38.659 --> 01:12:41.579 clipboard into NuVim. I like converting them 01:12:41.579 --> 01:12:44.359 into different formats. AVIF is the format that 01:12:44.359 --> 01:12:46.899 I choose, but I can convert them to any other 01:12:46.899 --> 01:12:50.100 format using ImageMagick, a plugin, you know, 01:12:50.140 --> 01:12:54.619 that I use, ImageClip .nvim. And I can view images 01:12:54.619 --> 01:13:01.100 in NuVim as well now. So I really like that extensibility. 01:13:02.279 --> 01:13:05.460 I have heard that there's a few folks that are 01:13:05.460 --> 01:13:10.000 not into that because it seems like Neovim is 01:13:10.000 --> 01:13:13.720 becoming into Emacs or something like that. What 01:13:13.720 --> 01:13:15.479 are your thoughts there? Anything you want to 01:13:15.479 --> 01:13:20.560 share? I think that's a compliment. I think Emacs' 01:13:20.680 --> 01:13:22.979 superpower has always been how acceptable it 01:13:22.979 --> 01:13:26.659 is and how powerful it is as a platform. If Neovim 01:13:26.659 --> 01:13:28.600 is becoming that, then that's a good thing as 01:13:28.600 --> 01:13:30.560 far as I'm concerned. I mean, it's up to the 01:13:30.560 --> 01:13:33.520 user, right? When you install NeoVim from your 01:13:33.520 --> 01:13:35.659 package manager or something, it automatically 01:13:35.659 --> 01:13:37.819 downloads and installs all this other stuff. 01:13:38.640 --> 01:13:40.539 It's only there if you choose to install it. 01:13:40.819 --> 01:13:44.039 So I don't really take that as a serious criticism. 01:13:44.239 --> 01:13:46.939 I guess someone would say that. Because NeoVim 01:13:46.939 --> 01:13:50.300 at its base is still very minimal. It has a lot 01:13:50.300 --> 01:13:52.479 of stuff that Vim doesn't have. So there are 01:13:52.479 --> 01:13:54.979 some Vim people that don't like NeoVim because 01:13:54.979 --> 01:13:56.899 they think even out of the box it does too much. 01:13:57.239 --> 01:13:59.279 But that's fine. Not everyone has to like everything. 01:14:01.330 --> 01:14:04.890 We have a certain design philosophy and idea 01:14:04.890 --> 01:14:06.170 of what we want to get them to be, and that's 01:14:06.170 --> 01:14:08.210 not for everyone. And that's totally fine. We 01:14:08.210 --> 01:14:10.810 don't have to appease the whole world. But if 01:14:10.810 --> 01:14:16.109 that's you, then feel free to stick to Vim or 01:14:16.109 --> 01:14:19.229 Ed or whatever it is that you use. But I think 01:14:19.229 --> 01:14:21.850 a lot of people do find the extensibility to 01:14:21.850 --> 01:14:24.710 be really powerful. I'm one of them, for sure. 01:14:25.869 --> 01:14:29.189 Okay. Okay, awesome. Now, also in the previous 01:14:29.189 --> 01:14:31.609 conversation, you mentioned about auto -updates. 01:14:32.029 --> 01:14:34.550 So you're not into auto -updating your plugins 01:14:34.550 --> 01:14:37.909 during startup, right? No, I'm definitely not. 01:14:38.050 --> 01:14:41.869 I definitely don't do that. I do update NeoVim 01:14:41.869 --> 01:14:44.369 almost every day. Like, it's one of the things 01:14:44.369 --> 01:14:46.829 that I do in the morning. Like, when I'm logging 01:14:46.829 --> 01:14:48.609 into my work computer, I'll update NeoVim basically 01:14:48.609 --> 01:14:50.729 every day. But that's because I'm, like, as a 01:14:50.729 --> 01:14:53.789 maintainer, right? Like, that's part of, I can 01:14:53.789 --> 01:14:56.050 think of that as part of my maintainer duties. 01:14:57.619 --> 01:15:04.319 finding issues so I can fix them. But I don't 01:15:04.319 --> 01:15:05.960 necessarily advise that for... Actually, I would 01:15:05.960 --> 01:15:07.800 advise against doing that for most people. Unless 01:15:07.800 --> 01:15:09.699 you actively want to be involved in the development 01:15:09.699 --> 01:15:14.079 process, I would say do not daily drive the master 01:15:14.079 --> 01:15:19.000 branch. I don't update... I hardly update my 01:15:19.000 --> 01:15:21.279 plugins ever. Actually, if I were to run this, 01:15:21.579 --> 01:15:26.880 I probably have a bajillion updates. Okay, so 01:15:26.880 --> 01:15:29.399 Stippy, I'm going to say no to all these, but 01:15:29.399 --> 01:15:35.060 all these plugins have updates. This one has 01:15:35.060 --> 01:15:44.640 87 new commits since I updated it last. So it's 01:15:44.640 --> 01:15:47.560 been a while. But no, I don't, I mean, for the 01:15:47.560 --> 01:15:51.779 same reason that people pin their dependencies 01:15:51.779 --> 01:15:56.189 in production environments, right? updating stuff 01:15:56.189 --> 01:15:59.229 every single day. This does frustrate me because 01:15:59.229 --> 01:16:01.930 you see online people complaining that NeoVM 01:16:01.930 --> 01:16:05.430 is so unstable. It breaks all the time. And a 01:16:05.430 --> 01:16:07.489 lot of times you also see these people are also 01:16:07.489 --> 01:16:11.029 updating, have dozens of plugins installed that 01:16:11.029 --> 01:16:14.210 are updating them frequently. And sometimes worse, 01:16:14.310 --> 01:16:17.949 there was a period of time where a lot of our 01:16:17.949 --> 01:16:21.260 users were daily driving the master branch. So 01:16:21.260 --> 01:16:22.840 I'm like, of course it's going to be unstable. 01:16:23.239 --> 01:16:25.399 You're asking for it to be unstable. If you're 01:16:25.399 --> 01:16:28.600 on the development branch, even if you're not, 01:16:28.680 --> 01:16:30.180 even if you're on a release, but you have a bunch 01:16:30.180 --> 01:16:31.479 of plugins and you're updating them frequently, 01:16:31.619 --> 01:16:36.779 plugins... Tag releases are not very common in 01:16:36.779 --> 01:16:39.340 the Neoven plugin ecosystem. Pretty much every 01:16:39.340 --> 01:16:41.779 plugin out there, with some exceptions, just 01:16:41.779 --> 01:16:45.159 are on head. And when you run update, you just 01:16:45.159 --> 01:16:47.340 are updating to head on all of them. And a lot 01:16:47.340 --> 01:16:51.050 of plugins try to support... NeoVim had and NeoVim 01:16:51.050 --> 01:16:54.590 releases, sometimes not successfully. So yeah, 01:16:54.630 --> 01:16:56.810 of course, if you want NeoVim to be stable, do 01:16:56.810 --> 01:16:58.250 the same thing you do with any other software 01:16:58.250 --> 01:17:01.050 you want to be stable. Pin your dependencies, 01:17:01.250 --> 01:17:04.449 pin your plugins. But I don't know, people don't 01:17:04.449 --> 01:17:09.270 want to do that. Yeah. What about like incremental 01:17:09.270 --> 01:17:11.510 updates, right? Because if you update right now, 01:17:11.550 --> 01:17:13.590 probably you're going to have a lot of changes. 01:17:13.770 --> 01:17:15.970 If you update all of your plugins, do you update 01:17:15.970 --> 01:17:18.170 one at a time or do you just, when you decide 01:17:18.170 --> 01:17:20.770 to update all of them at once and see what breaks? 01:17:22.510 --> 01:17:24.590 When I do update, I usually update them all at 01:17:24.590 --> 01:17:32.029 the same time. I don't run into issues caused 01:17:32.029 --> 01:17:36.319 by plugins very often though. And again, it's 01:17:36.319 --> 01:17:39.779 partly because I'm pretty picky about plugins 01:17:39.779 --> 01:17:42.319 I install. Like, I use Fugitive. I just saw this 01:17:42.319 --> 01:17:44.560 because it was here. Like, I trust Tim Pope. 01:17:45.100 --> 01:17:49.039 Like, Tim Pope is extraordinarily talented. I 01:17:49.039 --> 01:17:53.079 usually feel like I can update Fugitive with 01:17:53.079 --> 01:17:55.119 very little fear that something's gonna break. 01:17:58.340 --> 01:18:01.619 And Vimlet is another one that's written by Matthias, 01:18:01.619 --> 01:18:03.359 who I talked about earlier. Same thing. Like, 01:18:03.359 --> 01:18:06.500 he's... he's a new core member like i have a 01:18:06.500 --> 01:18:10.460 lot of faith and trust in his ability to write 01:18:10.460 --> 01:18:12.500 a good plugin so i'm not that i also don't have 01:18:12.500 --> 01:18:14.500 a lot of fear and then the other one is mini 01:18:14.500 --> 01:18:20.319 diamond and same with with evgeny um but usually 01:18:20.319 --> 01:18:22.100 i don't update unless i have a reason to right 01:18:22.100 --> 01:18:25.739 like right now my editor when i use it to actually 01:18:25.739 --> 01:18:31.060 write code it's fine the way it is yeah So I 01:18:31.060 --> 01:18:33.680 kind of goes against what I was saying about 01:18:33.680 --> 01:18:36.939 how I update NeoBIM every single day. So I'm 01:18:36.939 --> 01:18:40.000 kind of contradicting myself. But again, that's 01:18:40.000 --> 01:18:41.579 just because I'm involved with the development 01:18:41.579 --> 01:18:43.640 of it. If I weren't, then I wouldn't do that. 01:18:44.199 --> 01:18:48.520 Okay, yeah. I was under the impression that update 01:18:48.520 --> 01:18:51.239 your plugins because of maybe security reasons 01:18:51.239 --> 01:18:54.399 or something. I have no idea. Like the security 01:18:54.399 --> 01:18:58.279 critical updates that you get in Linux and all 01:18:58.279 --> 01:19:01.439 that stuff. But now that you guys talk about 01:19:01.439 --> 01:19:04.800 it, TJ and you, I'm like, because I update on 01:19:04.800 --> 01:19:08.380 startup, the plugins, just the plugins, right? 01:19:08.520 --> 01:19:11.079 And sometimes they have breaking changes. So 01:19:11.079 --> 01:19:14.420 if they're released, it's good. I just pin them 01:19:14.420 --> 01:19:16.500 to the previous version and I just deal with 01:19:16.500 --> 01:19:20.439 that another day, you know, when I have the time. 01:19:20.979 --> 01:19:25.920 But yeah, honestly, I don't think there's a reason 01:19:25.920 --> 01:19:30.380 then to auto -update the plugin. Because if they 01:19:30.380 --> 01:19:32.380 work, they work, right? So why would you want 01:19:32.380 --> 01:19:34.420 to update? Unless there's a feature that was 01:19:34.420 --> 01:19:37.300 developed that you're interested in, it would 01:19:37.300 --> 01:19:42.680 make sense to update then, right? Yeah. If you 01:19:42.680 --> 01:19:44.380 have a lot of plugins, then it's hard to keep 01:19:44.380 --> 01:19:46.420 track of all of them and see what features there 01:19:46.420 --> 01:19:49.960 are. So I understand why people do it. I'm just 01:19:49.960 --> 01:19:53.439 saying, my point is that you kind of have to 01:19:53.439 --> 01:19:56.140 make a trade -off, right? Either between constantly 01:19:56.140 --> 01:19:59.069 updating and getting the newest stuff. Or stability. 01:19:59.869 --> 01:20:04.029 You can't usually have it both ways. Yeah, definitely. 01:20:04.430 --> 01:20:08.270 Okay. One other point I want to make. You mentioned 01:20:08.270 --> 01:20:12.130 the security updates thing. For Linux or something, 01:20:12.270 --> 01:20:16.430 definitely. For NeoVim, I want to be really clear 01:20:16.430 --> 01:20:18.430 about this. NeoVim has basically zero concept 01:20:18.430 --> 01:20:22.470 of security with plugins. So it's very... Installing 01:20:22.470 --> 01:20:25.039 a plugin, you are installing... untrusted code 01:20:25.039 --> 01:20:27.039 that can do anything. You're going to execute 01:20:27.039 --> 01:20:30.520 code on your computer. It's not sandboxed. It 01:20:30.520 --> 01:20:32.760 can do anything. It's going to run as your user. 01:20:32.979 --> 01:20:35.340 It can read your SSH private keys and write them 01:20:35.340 --> 01:20:38.560 to a server. There's nothing stopping it from 01:20:38.560 --> 01:20:45.420 doing that. I don't know personally of any examples 01:20:45.420 --> 01:20:48.380 of people installing malware in a Vim plugin. 01:20:48.659 --> 01:20:51.859 I imagine that's not the most fruitful target 01:20:51.859 --> 01:20:55.390 for an attacker. um but that is important to 01:20:55.390 --> 01:20:58.229 remember that when it comes to security it's 01:20:58.229 --> 01:21:00.649 possible so that's another reason to be careful 01:21:00.649 --> 01:21:02.430 about what plugins you install and when do you 01:21:02.430 --> 01:21:06.010 update them makes sense yeah i trust volky you 01:21:06.010 --> 01:21:10.670 know volky is my filter so yeah if a plugin makes 01:21:10.670 --> 01:21:13.310 it to lazy vim i'm like okay so it's approved 01:21:13.310 --> 01:21:17.529 by folky i trust them so um yeah i don't install 01:21:17.529 --> 01:21:20.670 you know random plugins that i just find out 01:21:20.670 --> 01:21:25.060 there in the wild But yeah, try to keep your 01:21:25.060 --> 01:21:28.279 plugins minimal and install from people that 01:21:28.279 --> 01:21:33.020 you really trust, basically, right? That's my 01:21:33.020 --> 01:21:36.119 advice, whatever it's worth. Okay, yeah, makes 01:21:36.119 --> 01:21:38.420 sense. It won't work for everybody, but... Yeah, 01:21:38.539 --> 01:21:43.140 and why Ghosty? Moving on to something else. 01:21:43.220 --> 01:21:45.720 Why did you decide to go with Ghosty? Why did 01:21:45.720 --> 01:21:50.010 you decide to start contributing in Ghosty? Yeah, 01:21:50.010 --> 01:21:52.210 you can't talk about Nevo without talking about 01:21:52.210 --> 01:21:55.649 terminals, right? So I've used most terminals. 01:21:55.810 --> 01:21:59.829 So I started with iTerm2 on Mac OS. And then 01:21:59.829 --> 01:22:03.649 at various points, I've tried Alacrity, Giddy, 01:22:03.710 --> 01:22:10.569 Westerm. I used ST even for a little while. The 01:22:10.569 --> 01:22:12.409 only one I've never really used full -time was 01:22:12.409 --> 01:22:18.750 Foot, only because it was on Linux only. At the 01:22:18.750 --> 01:22:21.829 time that I was using Linux primarily at work, 01:22:22.090 --> 01:22:25.630 Foot didn't exist. It was like Wayland. It's 01:22:25.630 --> 01:22:28.149 not just Linux only. It's Wayland only. There 01:22:28.149 --> 01:22:31.130 was never a period where I was only using Wayland 01:22:31.130 --> 01:22:37.390 and also wouldn't use Foot. But I was using iTerm2. 01:22:37.710 --> 01:22:42.270 I like iTerm2 because it's a native Mac app. 01:22:42.310 --> 01:22:45.210 It feels like a Mac application, which I like. 01:22:45.289 --> 01:22:49.739 That's important to me. Aesthetically, the UI, 01:22:49.960 --> 01:22:51.760 the user experience, the way it works, it just 01:22:51.760 --> 01:22:53.979 feels like it's integrated. It feels like it's 01:22:53.979 --> 01:22:56.020 a... Because it is. It's like a native Mac application. 01:22:56.600 --> 01:22:59.619 No other terminal does that. Aside from Ghosty, 01:22:59.619 --> 01:23:01.279 but at the time. No other terminal does that. 01:23:01.539 --> 01:23:04.420 If you use something like Kitty, like it uses... 01:23:04.420 --> 01:23:06.720 Kitty's great, by the way. I know nothing but 01:23:06.720 --> 01:23:09.000 respect for Kitty and Wester and Lackerty. They're 01:23:09.000 --> 01:23:13.420 all great. They do different things. Kitty's 01:23:13.420 --> 01:23:17.420 tabs are not Mac OS tabs. Like, there's kitty 01:23:17.420 --> 01:23:19.659 draws its own tabs. Western draws its own tabs. 01:23:20.899 --> 01:23:24.180 Alacrity is kind of... Alacrity doesn't have 01:23:24.180 --> 01:23:26.220 any of its own stuff. It doesn't have tabs. It 01:23:26.220 --> 01:23:29.720 doesn't have any UI stuff. So it kind of feels 01:23:29.720 --> 01:23:32.920 like a native app, I guess, because it's just 01:23:32.920 --> 01:23:37.659 like a box. Alacrity is fine. I don't honestly 01:23:37.659 --> 01:23:41.000 remember why I moved back to iTerm2, but I was 01:23:41.000 --> 01:23:42.279 pretty happy with iTerm2, and that's what I was 01:23:42.279 --> 01:23:45.819 using at the time. uh and then i saw mitchell 01:23:45.819 --> 01:23:48.079 give a talk about ghosty and i was interested 01:23:48.079 --> 01:23:50.880 in ghosty because we were in zig and i've i've 01:23:50.880 --> 01:23:55.260 been following zig since 2017 or something like 01:23:55.260 --> 01:23:58.260 that 2019. so for a long time i really like zig 01:23:58.260 --> 01:24:00.260 i'm a big fan of the language i think it has 01:24:00.260 --> 01:24:02.979 a bright future i've done i've written some stuff 01:24:02.979 --> 01:24:06.960 in it myself um and when i saw that he was writing 01:24:06.960 --> 01:24:10.800 this term limelighter in zig that also really 01:24:10.800 --> 01:24:13.739 cared about being cross -platform and feeling 01:24:13.739 --> 01:24:16.380 like a native app on each of its different target 01:24:16.380 --> 01:24:18.579 platforms, that to me was like, oh, wow, that 01:24:18.579 --> 01:24:22.300 sounds great. So that was when I first learned 01:24:22.300 --> 01:24:25.199 about it and became interested in it and joined 01:24:25.199 --> 01:24:27.399 the Discord shortly after. And like I said earlier, 01:24:28.060 --> 01:24:34.380 I begged for an invite. And then why I stayed 01:24:34.380 --> 01:24:39.800 with it, I think before GoSee, I never really 01:24:39.800 --> 01:24:46.970 contributed to A terminal emulator. Yeah, so 01:24:46.970 --> 01:24:50.149 that was kind of new for me. Because I knew Zig, 01:24:50.390 --> 01:24:54.909 it was approachable to me. I wasn't scared of 01:24:54.909 --> 01:24:58.670 digging into it. And there were things that weren't 01:24:58.670 --> 01:25:01.170 implemented. I also had to learn Swift because 01:25:01.170 --> 01:25:04.109 a lot of the stuff that I contributed were UI 01:25:04.109 --> 01:25:07.449 changes and all that was and still is in Swift 01:25:07.449 --> 01:25:10.699 because it's all done in a native Mac app. So 01:25:10.699 --> 01:25:12.079 I had to learn Swift to add some stuff, which 01:25:12.079 --> 01:25:13.600 was kind of interesting because that was kind 01:25:13.600 --> 01:25:15.819 of fun to learn something new. But yeah, that 01:25:15.819 --> 01:25:18.260 was what kept me around was being able to contribute 01:25:18.260 --> 01:25:20.960 to it, to the project in meaningful ways, right? 01:25:21.100 --> 01:25:23.119 Not just fixing typos or something, but actually 01:25:23.119 --> 01:25:28.279 adding real features. And then having both sides 01:25:28.279 --> 01:25:30.520 of the puzzle, or not the puzzle, but being able 01:25:30.520 --> 01:25:34.060 to implement a feature in Ghosty and then use 01:25:34.060 --> 01:25:37.039 it and test it in NeoVim was intoxicating, right? 01:25:37.119 --> 01:25:39.609 It was just so fun. uh to be able to be on both 01:25:39.609 --> 01:25:44.850 sides so um that was that was also the reason 01:25:44.850 --> 01:25:48.310 why i um kept kept going to contribute stuff 01:25:48.310 --> 01:25:51.409 mental credit too i think mitchell did a really 01:25:51.409 --> 01:25:53.590 good job of being open to contributors and creating 01:25:53.590 --> 01:25:55.630 a really healthy environment especially early 01:25:55.630 --> 01:26:00.390 on um so i don't know just made it easy made 01:26:00.390 --> 01:26:06.359 it easy to contribute and stick around um yeah 01:26:06.359 --> 01:26:08.560 i i wrote a i wrote a blog post about ghosty 01:26:08.560 --> 01:26:12.579 being native because i mentioned that's really 01:26:12.579 --> 01:26:15.640 important to me like i care about that and but 01:26:15.640 --> 01:26:18.000 this is back when ghosty was still in beta there's 01:26:18.000 --> 01:26:20.420 all this hype around it which i personally hated 01:26:20.420 --> 01:26:23.260 i hated all the hype like it was people were 01:26:23.260 --> 01:26:25.819 like people were like debasing themselves to 01:26:25.819 --> 01:26:29.170 count me in i created a couple videos Which, 01:26:29.170 --> 01:26:31.590 I mean, I definitely, you know, I joined the 01:26:31.590 --> 01:26:33.789 Discord and asked for an invite, so I'm guilty 01:26:33.789 --> 01:26:37.550 myself, right? But the hype definitely kind of 01:26:37.550 --> 01:26:40.930 grew out of control. But when people were talking 01:26:40.930 --> 01:26:43.869 about why people are so excited about Ghostie, 01:26:43.949 --> 01:26:47.409 they would talk about performance, or they would 01:26:47.409 --> 01:26:50.010 talk about font rendering or ligatures, which 01:26:50.010 --> 01:26:53.010 is, I said that because, like, I don't care about 01:26:53.010 --> 01:26:55.350 that at all. I don't care about ligatures. I 01:26:55.350 --> 01:26:57.960 don't really care about font rendering. So it 01:26:57.960 --> 01:26:59.880 was just funny to see people care so much about 01:26:59.880 --> 01:27:03.500 the stuff that, to me, was not important. But 01:27:03.500 --> 01:27:05.539 what was important to me and what I thought goes 01:27:05.539 --> 01:27:07.899 to the most distinguishing feature was that it 01:27:07.899 --> 01:27:12.520 was native, both on macOS and on GTK. It uses 01:27:12.520 --> 01:27:15.779 native GTK APIs, and it feels like, aside from 01:27:15.779 --> 01:27:18.739 GNOME Terminal or Texas or however you say it, 01:27:19.060 --> 01:27:23.840 it's like the most GTK terminal there is. which 01:27:23.840 --> 01:27:26.060 obviously I know on Linux, not everyone uses 01:27:26.060 --> 01:27:28.779 GTK, not everyone likes GTK, but if you're using 01:27:28.779 --> 01:27:33.119 GNOME, Ghosty feels like it belongs there, which 01:27:33.119 --> 01:27:36.840 is awesome. I think it's awesome. And so I wrote 01:27:36.840 --> 01:27:39.300 this about why I cared about that, what that 01:27:39.300 --> 01:27:43.340 even means. And I think it got some attention, 01:27:43.579 --> 01:27:45.119 so hopefully people understood what that meant. 01:27:45.279 --> 01:27:48.939 But that is the reason why I continue to use 01:27:48.939 --> 01:27:50.760 it, and I'm very happy with it, and I don't anticipate. 01:27:51.760 --> 01:27:56.560 not using it because of that native integration 01:27:56.560 --> 01:28:01.359 and as well as how fast it is. It implements 01:28:01.359 --> 01:28:05.460 a lot of cutting edge. So compared to iTerm, 01:28:05.539 --> 01:28:08.039 iTerm is also native. iTerm also is really good 01:28:08.039 --> 01:28:09.680 about implementing new features. The author of 01:28:09.680 --> 01:28:13.260 iTerm is a guy named George Nachman, I think 01:28:13.260 --> 01:28:17.069 is his last name. And he also does a lot of new 01:28:17.069 --> 01:28:19.369 stuff, and he works with Neon sometimes. And 01:28:19.369 --> 01:28:22.710 so iTerm also has some cutting -edge stuff. But 01:28:22.710 --> 01:28:25.050 iTerm is not fast, unfortunately. It's pretty 01:28:25.050 --> 01:28:29.430 slow. So Ghosty kind of beats iTerm for me there 01:28:29.430 --> 01:28:31.329 in that it has the other two features and also 01:28:31.329 --> 01:28:34.189 is a lot faster. Did you like iTerm's configuration, 01:28:34.550 --> 01:28:36.649 the way of configuring it? Maybe it's a skill 01:28:36.649 --> 01:28:39.180 issue on my side, but... I had to go into the 01:28:39.180 --> 01:28:41.899 GUI and do stuff in the GUI, and I didn't like 01:28:41.899 --> 01:28:44.539 that. Yeah, I was in the GUI. Yeah, so I never 01:28:44.539 --> 01:28:47.720 managed my iTerm config in my .files or anything. 01:28:48.399 --> 01:28:52.819 So I'd also prefer that about ghosties. It's 01:28:52.819 --> 01:28:55.359 text -based config. Although, I know that there 01:28:55.359 --> 01:29:01.800 are plans to add a GUI config editor to ghostie. 01:29:01.800 --> 01:29:04.119 It just doesn't exist yet. My ghostie config 01:29:04.119 --> 01:29:05.779 is also pretty simple. I don't have a lot in 01:29:05.779 --> 01:29:09.199 there. OK. But you can still, even if the GUI 01:29:09.199 --> 01:29:13.500 comes along, you can still configure it via the 01:29:13.500 --> 01:29:16.000 config file, right? Yeah, that'll always be an 01:29:16.000 --> 01:29:18.899 option. I think that's one reason why the GUI 01:29:18.899 --> 01:29:20.859 hasn't been done yet. It's not that it's hard 01:29:20.859 --> 01:29:23.340 to write the GUI. It's that it's hard to design 01:29:23.340 --> 01:29:27.399 around it. How do we support a GUI and also support 01:29:27.399 --> 01:29:29.880 having a version -controlled file that people 01:29:29.880 --> 01:29:33.359 can manage? And is the GUI actually needed? Like, 01:29:33.359 --> 01:29:36.520 being honest. No, no, it's definitely not needed. 01:29:36.989 --> 01:29:40.289 It's just some people want it. Oh. Like you won't 01:29:40.289 --> 01:29:42.970 ever need to use it if you don't want to. Okay. 01:29:42.989 --> 01:29:45.550 Yeah, that was my question. Like why a GUI? But 01:29:45.550 --> 01:29:48.550 I guess users want it basically, right? So that's 01:29:48.550 --> 01:29:51.729 why. Yeah. Yeah. And the one thing Ghosty doesn't 01:29:51.729 --> 01:29:57.010 have that I miss, that I wish it had, is the 01:29:57.010 --> 01:30:00.750 search feature. And this is like the most requested 01:30:00.750 --> 01:30:03.130 feature. It has like the most upvotes on GitHub. 01:30:03.229 --> 01:30:07.149 It's one of the oldest open issues. But it's 01:30:07.149 --> 01:30:10.069 also like, it's not, it's absolutely non -trivial 01:30:10.069 --> 01:30:12.569 to implement. So it's basically, Mitchell has 01:30:12.569 --> 01:30:14.569 basically said that he wants to do it. What do 01:30:14.569 --> 01:30:17.430 you mean? The search feature, what is it? Like 01:30:17.430 --> 01:30:19.069 being able to, like if I have all this text on 01:30:19.069 --> 01:30:24.189 my screen, let me just click. Oh. I have all 01:30:24.189 --> 01:30:26.409 this text and I want to press command F and search 01:30:26.409 --> 01:30:28.270 for text on the screen. Oh, I see. I can't do 01:30:28.270 --> 01:30:31.369 that. So it's not available. Okay. So what I 01:30:31.369 --> 01:30:33.810 do now is Ghosty does have a feature to write. 01:30:34.199 --> 01:30:37.220 the screen to a file so i open that in the oven 01:30:37.220 --> 01:30:40.020 and then i can search in here so that i mean 01:30:40.020 --> 01:30:43.159 that kind of works it works well enough it's 01:30:43.159 --> 01:30:46.880 not perfect but what are your thoughts on your 01:30:46.880 --> 01:30:49.340 your thoughts on tmux by the way because i don't 01:30:49.340 --> 01:30:52.500 miss that because i I use tmux, and I get it. 01:30:53.000 --> 01:30:56.100 It's like using another terminal inside the terminal. 01:30:56.380 --> 01:30:58.640 There's a lot of people against tmux. What are 01:30:58.640 --> 01:31:01.439 your thoughts personally on tmux? I don't have 01:31:01.439 --> 01:31:03.800 anything against tmux. I used tmux for a long 01:31:03.800 --> 01:31:08.060 time. My tmux config file is pretty fancy, actually. 01:31:08.220 --> 01:31:13.659 I have a ton of stuff in here. I use tmux. Actually, 01:31:13.760 --> 01:31:15.640 it's funny. Talking about that history of terminals, 01:31:15.739 --> 01:31:17.819 I didn't talk about tmux. For a long time, I 01:31:17.819 --> 01:31:19.779 didn't actually care what terminal I used because 01:31:19.779 --> 01:31:22.859 I was like, I just use Tmux. So whether it's 01:31:22.859 --> 01:31:25.039 Alacrity or Kitty or whatever, it doesn't really 01:31:25.039 --> 01:31:28.920 matter. I actually remember now, that was the 01:31:28.920 --> 01:31:31.100 reason I switched to iTerm is because iTerm supported 01:31:31.100 --> 01:31:36.920 features that didn't work. I think it was the... 01:31:36.920 --> 01:31:38.960 That's what it was. I'm remembering now. It was 01:31:38.960 --> 01:31:42.779 the Kitty Keyword Protocol. It has a bunch of 01:31:42.779 --> 01:31:44.279 different names, but the Kitty Keyword Protocol 01:31:44.279 --> 01:31:47.460 or CSIU or whatever. For anyone who doesn't know, 01:31:47.640 --> 01:31:50.500 I'll do a real brief terminal history lesson. 01:31:50.720 --> 01:31:55.659 But the way that historically keys, like when 01:31:55.659 --> 01:31:58.579 you press a key that's communicated to your terminal, 01:31:58.720 --> 01:32:02.960 it's all in ASCII, right? And if you look at 01:32:02.960 --> 01:32:07.720 the way that control characters are sent, it's 01:32:07.720 --> 01:32:10.800 like if you press control, like, okay, so let's 01:32:10.800 --> 01:32:15.119 look at the ASCII table here. I is 49, ASCII 01:32:15.119 --> 01:32:19.109 49. And when you press, or I should still get 01:32:19.109 --> 01:32:24.430 lowercase i, I think. Anyway, the point is that 01:32:24.430 --> 01:32:27.090 when you press control and i, that gets sent 01:32:27.090 --> 01:32:30.149 as a different character, the same as tab. So 01:32:30.149 --> 01:32:32.430 you can see this even today in Neva. If I press 01:32:32.430 --> 01:32:35.329 tab, I see, I don't know if you can see that, 01:32:35.470 --> 01:32:40.130 but it says control i. I press tab. Another one 01:32:40.130 --> 01:32:43.289 is enter. If I press enter, you see control m. 01:32:44.619 --> 01:32:46.800 So this all has to do with historical baggage, 01:32:46.920 --> 01:32:49.220 right? The way that certain keys were represented 01:32:49.220 --> 01:32:52.539 when you hold the control key. So for a long, 01:32:52.640 --> 01:32:55.439 long, long time, it was the case that applications 01:32:55.439 --> 01:32:57.420 in the terminal couldn't distinguish control 01:32:57.420 --> 01:33:02.199 I from tab or control M from enter. And they 01:33:02.199 --> 01:33:04.520 couldn't see control and number keys. So you 01:33:04.520 --> 01:33:06.319 couldn't press like control one or control two. 01:33:06.460 --> 01:33:09.840 So in an application like Vim, those keys are 01:33:09.840 --> 01:33:13.170 just not available to be mapped. So there are 01:33:13.170 --> 01:33:14.750 a couple of different attempts at solving this, 01:33:14.890 --> 01:33:19.590 and the one that has stuck and has been implemented 01:33:19.590 --> 01:33:23.210 pretty extensively now is the one proposed by 01:33:23.210 --> 01:33:26.729 the kitty of COVID. So it's today called the 01:33:26.729 --> 01:33:28.869 Kitty Keyword Protocol, although it's sometimes 01:33:28.869 --> 01:33:32.430 also called CSIU for other historical reasons. 01:33:32.949 --> 01:33:36.310 But when I learned about this feature, I termed 01:33:36.310 --> 01:33:38.310 support of it, support of the subset of it anyway, 01:33:38.470 --> 01:33:41.690 and I wanted to use it, but TMUX didn't. Tmux 01:33:41.690 --> 01:33:45.229 kind of supports, halfway supports it, but not 01:33:45.229 --> 01:33:48.569 in a way that really works. At least at the time. 01:33:48.710 --> 01:33:51.550 Things might have changed. So I always relied 01:33:51.550 --> 01:33:54.770 on Tmux to do things like having different sessions, 01:33:54.850 --> 01:33:57.329 different projects, window management, having 01:33:57.329 --> 01:33:59.210 a persistent session where I could close my journal 01:33:59.210 --> 01:34:00.550 and reopen it and pick it right where I left 01:34:00.550 --> 01:34:04.130 off. I loved Tmux. So switching to Tmux -less 01:34:04.130 --> 01:34:07.970 iTurn was tough for me. And I switched to iTurn 01:34:07.970 --> 01:34:09.390 both because it had that feature and because 01:34:09.390 --> 01:34:14.289 it had tabs. in splits which um i needed to replace 01:34:14.289 --> 01:34:18.689 tmux so ghosty also has this so i'm if you know 01:34:18.689 --> 01:34:22.770 i i can i can make tabs and splits in ghosty 01:34:22.770 --> 01:34:26.310 but if i didn't have that i would still use tmux 01:34:26.310 --> 01:34:28.729 i do still use tmux whenever i'm like ssh into 01:34:28.729 --> 01:34:32.229 a server or something though super valuable there 01:34:32.229 --> 01:34:35.130 but no i don't have anything against tmux i understand 01:34:35.130 --> 01:34:39.720 the criticisms of it about how it um I mean, 01:34:39.760 --> 01:34:42.560 I can speak from experience, right? Like working 01:34:42.560 --> 01:34:45.460 on Neobim, I have users say like, hey, this doesn't 01:34:45.460 --> 01:34:47.720 work. I'm using Tmux. I'm like, okay, we'd like 01:34:47.720 --> 01:34:50.100 to do a workaround for Tmux or I have to explain 01:34:50.100 --> 01:34:52.560 why it doesn't work in Tmux because, right? Like 01:34:52.560 --> 01:34:56.220 it's also for most users, most of our users like 01:34:56.220 --> 01:34:58.659 don't, like the terminal, the concept of terminals 01:34:58.659 --> 01:35:02.579 is really confusing. It's not at all clear, right? 01:35:02.659 --> 01:35:05.079 Like you talk about TTYs and PTYs and like most 01:35:05.079 --> 01:35:06.600 people are like their eyes glaze over. They have 01:35:06.600 --> 01:35:08.510 no idea what that means. so like they don't really 01:35:08.510 --> 01:35:11.470 understand like when something goes wrong is 01:35:11.470 --> 01:35:14.109 the problem with the shell is it with tmux is 01:35:14.109 --> 01:35:15.630 it with the terminal emulator is it with neodym 01:35:15.630 --> 01:35:18.590 right like it could be any of this and for someone 01:35:18.590 --> 01:35:20.149 who spends a lot of time working on this stuff 01:35:20.149 --> 01:35:23.189 i can usually understand what's going wrong where 01:35:23.189 --> 01:35:26.390 but your average user doesn't know that uh and 01:35:26.390 --> 01:35:29.590 and tmux kind of introduces another layer into 01:35:29.590 --> 01:35:32.470 that or something in the middle yeah yeah i remember 01:35:32.470 --> 01:35:36.029 having That issue with Tmux. I wanted to send 01:35:36.029 --> 01:35:39.869 control enter because in Emacs, I was doing another 01:35:39.869 --> 01:35:43.329 video with someone else and he pressed control 01:35:43.329 --> 01:35:47.529 enter and that created another heading, a markdown, 01:35:47.630 --> 01:35:49.909 well, an org heading below the heading that he 01:35:49.909 --> 01:35:52.329 had. And I was like, I want to do that, right? 01:35:52.850 --> 01:35:56.609 So control enter. But I use Tmux. I don't remember. 01:35:56.890 --> 01:35:58.989 I have it documented somewhere, you know, but 01:35:58.989 --> 01:36:03.569 ghosty. Tmux and NeoVim had to play nicely together 01:36:03.569 --> 01:36:07.210 so that my control enter made it all the way 01:36:07.210 --> 01:36:13.529 to NeoVim through Tmux, right? It's an additional 01:36:13.529 --> 01:36:16.649 layer. It works today in most cases. Most terminals 01:36:16.649 --> 01:36:21.430 today support the KDE Keyword Protocol. Most 01:36:21.430 --> 01:36:24.510 interactive terminal applications today support 01:36:24.510 --> 01:36:31.000 it. Even Vim now supports it. So it's mostly 01:36:31.000 --> 01:36:33.399 a solved problem today, but that was an issue 01:36:33.399 --> 01:36:38.979 for a long time. Okay, okay. Now, you also mentioned 01:36:38.979 --> 01:36:42.060 other editors. You said, what are your thoughts 01:36:42.060 --> 01:36:44.619 on this other one, Cursor? Have you tried Cursor? 01:36:44.659 --> 01:36:47.479 Any experience with it? No, I haven't tried it. 01:36:47.720 --> 01:36:51.020 I've been hesitant to try any of the AI stuff. 01:36:51.420 --> 01:36:57.189 Yeah, what are your thoughts on AI? I don't know. 01:36:57.229 --> 01:37:04.470 I'm skeptical. Slightly pessimistic. I guess 01:37:04.470 --> 01:37:10.250 outside of the world of software engineering, 01:37:10.529 --> 01:37:12.649 I'm a little bit more pessimistic in the sense 01:37:12.649 --> 01:37:16.090 that I think it will be and already is being 01:37:16.090 --> 01:37:18.710 used to just inundate the world with low -effort 01:37:18.710 --> 01:37:22.489 garbage and misinformation and trash and slop, 01:37:22.710 --> 01:37:25.010 right, is the new word for it. It's happening 01:37:25.010 --> 01:37:28.130 in music. It's happening in digital art. It's 01:37:28.130 --> 01:37:29.909 happening in videos. It's happening in text. 01:37:31.750 --> 01:37:37.270 It feels like we are making this trade -off where 01:37:37.270 --> 01:37:41.109 people are trading, having to use their brains, 01:37:41.310 --> 01:37:43.949 which I get it. Using your brain is really hard 01:37:43.949 --> 01:37:46.470 work. It doesn't always feel good. But in exchange, 01:37:46.590 --> 01:37:49.829 we're losing a lot of valuable output from that. 01:37:49.989 --> 01:37:52.529 And so I'm generally pretty negative about it. 01:37:53.490 --> 01:37:56.050 In the context of software engineering, I'm a 01:37:56.050 --> 01:38:00.510 little bit more open -minded, I guess. I'll say 01:38:00.510 --> 01:38:04.710 thus far, my use of AI tools has been strictly 01:38:04.710 --> 01:38:11.949 in the web UI chat prompts. So I don't use it 01:38:11.949 --> 01:38:14.229 at all for personal stuff. If I'm hacking on 01:38:14.229 --> 01:38:17.329 a side project or something, outside of for a 01:38:17.329 --> 01:38:20.369 joke or for a meme or just to see out of curiosity. 01:38:21.069 --> 01:38:22.810 But I don't actually use it to actually do to 01:38:22.810 --> 01:38:25.210 do anything for fun because my my my thinking 01:38:25.210 --> 01:38:28.750 there is like I enjoy programming like when I'm 01:38:28.750 --> 01:38:31.189 doing it for fun. It's because the whole the 01:38:31.189 --> 01:38:33.710 the writing the code, thinking about the problem, 01:38:33.850 --> 01:38:36.010 how do I how do I solve the problem in code? 01:38:36.189 --> 01:38:38.270 How do I write the code that solves the problem 01:38:38.270 --> 01:38:41.649 in a way that is efficient and fast and easy 01:38:41.649 --> 01:38:45.090 to read and and just satisfying to look at is 01:38:45.090 --> 01:38:48.000 all part of the puzzle. And it's part of. the 01:38:48.000 --> 01:38:51.300 fun. Solving that problem is why I'm doing it. 01:38:51.880 --> 01:38:53.800 If I didn't enjoy doing that, I wouldn't be doing 01:38:53.800 --> 01:38:55.500 it in the first place. So why would I offload 01:38:55.500 --> 01:38:59.319 that to AI? That's how I feel about there. I 01:38:59.319 --> 01:39:02.159 talked to a guy recently that was much more enthusiastic 01:39:02.159 --> 01:39:05.460 about AI. And I understand where our disconnect 01:39:05.460 --> 01:39:08.340 was. Because for him, the fun thing is getting 01:39:08.340 --> 01:39:12.220 his projects up. He wants to spin up a server 01:39:12.220 --> 01:39:14.060 that does X, Y, and Z so he can build this other 01:39:14.060 --> 01:39:17.739 thing. like for him the coding is this nuisance 01:39:17.739 --> 01:39:20.319 that he's trying to get around whereas for me 01:39:20.319 --> 01:39:23.680 it's like when i'm coding like it's for fun uh 01:39:23.680 --> 01:39:26.220 so i understand why like having this tool that 01:39:26.220 --> 01:39:27.760 does the coding for him because he doesn't like 01:39:27.760 --> 01:39:30.119 to do it i understand why he's why he likes it 01:39:30.119 --> 01:39:33.939 uh but for for personal stuff i haven't used 01:39:33.939 --> 01:39:37.180 it at all at work i use it a little bit we have 01:39:37.180 --> 01:39:40.819 like gemini at work and i've used the um the 01:39:40.819 --> 01:39:42.960 web Just the web chat thing. But even there, 01:39:43.020 --> 01:39:44.520 I basically use it in the same way that I would 01:39:44.520 --> 01:39:50.079 use Stack Overflow. And I found that the more 01:39:50.079 --> 01:39:52.739 domain expertise I have, either in a language 01:39:52.739 --> 01:39:54.699 or in a particular problem, the less useful I 01:39:54.699 --> 01:39:58.060 find AI. I find it pretty useful, actually, when 01:39:58.060 --> 01:40:01.279 I'm writing in a language I don't know. So I've 01:40:01.279 --> 01:40:03.779 never written TypeScript until I started at Cloudflare. 01:40:04.039 --> 01:40:06.420 And I now write a lot of TypeScript. And I still 01:40:06.420 --> 01:40:09.399 have questions like, how do I do this in TypeScript, 01:40:09.500 --> 01:40:11.640 right? And so I'll just ask Gemini, literally, 01:40:12.020 --> 01:40:13.779 how do I do this in TypeScript? And it's great 01:40:13.779 --> 01:40:15.859 in TypeScript because there's literally billions 01:40:15.859 --> 01:40:17.439 of lines of TypeScript on the internet that it's 01:40:17.439 --> 01:40:22.000 trained on. So it's great at that. How do you 01:40:22.000 --> 01:40:28.239 know, though, that it's great? I try it and it 01:40:28.239 --> 01:40:32.340 works. And sometimes, if I'm skeptical of the 01:40:32.340 --> 01:40:35.060 answer it gives me, which I usually am, I'll 01:40:35.060 --> 01:40:38.979 cross -reference it to a documentation or something. 01:40:39.640 --> 01:40:42.899 But usually it's like a syntax question. I want 01:40:42.899 --> 01:40:45.680 to write some type that has this property. How 01:40:45.680 --> 01:40:47.859 would I do that? And it gives it to me. And I'll 01:40:47.859 --> 01:40:50.619 try it. And if it doesn't compile, then it doesn't 01:40:50.619 --> 01:40:54.939 work. And that has happened. I was trying to 01:40:54.939 --> 01:40:56.640 solve some problem in TypeScript recently. And 01:40:56.640 --> 01:40:58.840 I was thinking about it. And I was trying. I 01:40:58.840 --> 01:41:01.079 was like, there's got to be a better way to do 01:41:01.079 --> 01:41:03.899 this. And so I went to Gemini and asked. And 01:41:03.899 --> 01:41:05.729 it gave me an answer that was wrong. I knew it 01:41:05.729 --> 01:41:07.510 was wrong. Even before I tried it, I could see 01:41:07.510 --> 01:41:09.390 that it was wrong. And I told it, and this is 01:41:09.390 --> 01:41:11.670 like classic LLM, right? I told it it was wrong 01:41:11.670 --> 01:41:13.350 and said, oh, you're right. I'm sorry about that. 01:41:13.390 --> 01:41:15.390 And it gave me a new answer. That was still wrong. 01:41:16.250 --> 01:41:17.949 And this wasn't even like a particularly hard 01:41:17.949 --> 01:41:19.890 problem. This is like a leet code style question. 01:41:20.510 --> 01:41:22.909 And I was like, I have experiences like that 01:41:22.909 --> 01:41:25.590 all the time where I'm just like, it's just frustrating. 01:41:26.529 --> 01:41:28.510 It's just like more waste of my time, more than 01:41:28.510 --> 01:41:33.500 it helps me. We, I do. I do know some people 01:41:33.500 --> 01:41:37.979 that I really respect that really like the agent 01:41:37.979 --> 01:41:42.180 -style tools, like Cloud Code or something. And 01:41:42.180 --> 01:41:44.619 they speak really highly of it. They use them 01:41:44.619 --> 01:41:49.680 a lot. I haven't tried those myself. We are starting 01:41:49.680 --> 01:41:51.939 a pilot at work where we can start experimenting 01:41:51.939 --> 01:41:55.779 with that. Maybe I'll try it soon. But I don't 01:41:55.779 --> 01:41:58.659 know. I, this is an area where I feel like a 01:41:58.659 --> 01:42:00.380 cranky old man, or I'm just like, I just want 01:42:00.380 --> 01:42:02.659 to be set in my ways. Like I know how to do my 01:42:02.659 --> 01:42:07.739 job today. And I'm like, I'm like, everything's 01:42:07.739 --> 01:42:10.119 changing or Shakespeare's like clouds. Right. 01:42:11.920 --> 01:42:14.060 And I don't know, but I also find the discourse 01:42:14.060 --> 01:42:16.380 around it to be extremely exhausting. Right. 01:42:16.420 --> 01:42:19.210 Like the number of times I've read that. either 01:42:19.210 --> 01:42:20.949 you have to use it now or you'll be left behind 01:42:20.949 --> 01:42:24.130 right is I just I just roll my eyes at that now 01:42:24.130 --> 01:42:26.149 that there are people that are like oh it's it's 01:42:26.149 --> 01:42:27.710 here to stay so you got to figure it out you 01:42:27.710 --> 01:42:29.909 got to start using it I'm like okay I don't know 01:42:29.909 --> 01:42:31.149 I'm kind of like I'm just going to keep doing 01:42:31.149 --> 01:42:33.930 my job the day that all the AI people start like 01:42:33.930 --> 01:42:37.529 outpacing me to the point where like I'm being 01:42:37.529 --> 01:42:40.529 left behind I'm like, I'll notice it. And then 01:42:40.529 --> 01:42:42.210 it's like, okay, I guess I better pick it up. 01:42:42.289 --> 01:42:45.770 But that day has not come yet. I'm still extremely 01:42:45.770 --> 01:42:47.909 productive and very good at my job. I think so 01:42:47.909 --> 01:42:51.550 anyway. Doing it the old -fashioned way. So I 01:42:51.550 --> 01:42:54.510 haven't felt extremely motivated to change anything 01:42:54.510 --> 01:42:57.609 there. But we'll see. I'm trying to keep an open 01:42:57.609 --> 01:43:00.069 mind about it. Okay. At least in the context 01:43:00.069 --> 01:43:03.649 of coding stuff. Okay. And no experience with 01:43:03.649 --> 01:43:06.449 Cursor. That's the one that I'm kind of curious 01:43:06.449 --> 01:43:09.539 about. But again, I think about leaving the terminal 01:43:09.539 --> 01:43:12.300 and it's going to be like a completely new environment, 01:43:12.560 --> 01:43:15.140 similar to what happened with Obsidian. I'm like, 01:43:15.279 --> 01:43:19.079 I'm not going to enjoy it. I think, I don't know. 01:43:20.000 --> 01:43:22.680 I'm going to feel a disconnect, I think, you 01:43:22.680 --> 01:43:26.779 know. Yeah. I do know Cloud Code is like a terminal 01:43:26.779 --> 01:43:28.619 based one. So if I were to try one, it's probably 01:43:28.619 --> 01:43:31.220 the one I would do. I haven't tried it, but I 01:43:31.220 --> 01:43:33.380 will. I could have, I could have, if you could 01:43:33.380 --> 01:43:35.829 even like have Neoman running and then. have 01:43:35.829 --> 01:43:38.010 it in your Neovan terminal, right? Like, I don't 01:43:38.010 --> 01:43:40.529 know. I have no idea how you'd use cloud code. 01:43:41.090 --> 01:43:43.489 Cloud code, whatever. How do I write? How do 01:43:43.489 --> 01:43:45.289 I do this? I don't actually know what the syntax 01:43:45.289 --> 01:43:48.369 is, but you can have it running in a window in 01:43:48.369 --> 01:43:50.090 Neovan, even, which would be kind of cool. And 01:43:50.090 --> 01:43:54.270 it reads, like, your entire project, or...? I 01:43:54.270 --> 01:43:56.390 think so. I think it spins up some... I'm, like, 01:43:56.390 --> 01:43:58.930 so not qualified to talk about this, but my understanding 01:43:58.930 --> 01:44:02.090 is, like, it spins up a process and runs in your 01:44:02.090 --> 01:44:03.829 directory and has all the context of all the 01:44:03.829 --> 01:44:06.760 source code and everything. That's cool. Interesting. 01:44:07.000 --> 01:44:09.859 I'll have to give it a try. I have not released 01:44:09.859 --> 01:44:13.560 AI related content because I still use ChatGPT, 01:44:13.640 --> 01:44:17.279 you know, copy paste and review there and paste 01:44:17.279 --> 01:44:22.460 back into my terminal. But I will see. I wanted 01:44:22.460 --> 01:44:28.420 to ask you as well. Let's talk about OS. What 01:44:28.420 --> 01:44:32.619 is your favorite OS, your preferred one? And 01:44:32.619 --> 01:44:35.859 why? What are your experiences with other operating 01:44:35.859 --> 01:44:39.140 systems as well? I've used all the big three. 01:44:39.520 --> 01:44:42.119 I grew up using Windows. I used Windows exclusively 01:44:42.119 --> 01:44:44.819 until all the way through college. So it wasn't 01:44:44.819 --> 01:44:47.579 until my first job, that first job I talked about 01:44:47.579 --> 01:44:49.939 earlier, the web dev job. When I started there, 01:44:49.979 --> 01:44:52.840 they gave me a Mac. I didn't ask for a Mac. They 01:44:52.840 --> 01:44:57.430 gave me. Yeah, same happened to me. And I liked 01:44:57.430 --> 01:44:59.409 it. I was like, I don't know. All through college, 01:44:59.489 --> 01:45:01.810 I sneered at the Apple users. I was like, oh, 01:45:01.829 --> 01:45:03.510 you guys with your expensive laptops, you all 01:45:03.510 --> 01:45:07.250 think you're so artsy and unique. The Starbucks. 01:45:08.170 --> 01:45:12.350 Right. But the irony, right? I was being snobbish 01:45:12.350 --> 01:45:15.050 about people being snobbish, which is hypocritical. 01:45:15.109 --> 01:45:18.430 I didn't realize at the time. But yeah, I got 01:45:18.430 --> 01:45:20.170 a Mac and I was like, oh, I actually really like 01:45:20.170 --> 01:45:21.829 this. And I never went back to Windows again. 01:45:22.069 --> 01:45:24.739 And I haven't touched Windows since. The only 01:45:24.739 --> 01:45:26.399 time I've ever used Windows since then is like 01:45:26.399 --> 01:45:30.680 on the very rare occasions when I have to debug 01:45:30.680 --> 01:45:33.420 some NeoVim issuing Windows. And I always hate 01:45:33.420 --> 01:45:35.579 that. That's like my nightmare scenario is when 01:45:35.579 --> 01:45:38.380 you open a PR NeoVim and the one failing test 01:45:38.380 --> 01:45:41.380 is Windows. I'm like, no, please, no, not Windows. 01:45:41.640 --> 01:45:44.060 Hey, let me ask you before we continue here. 01:45:44.279 --> 01:45:46.520 How is that experience? Because I have never 01:45:46.520 --> 01:45:49.420 installed NeoVim on Windows. Like, is it a native? 01:45:50.039 --> 01:45:53.640 NeoVim experience, like not through WSL, right? 01:45:53.760 --> 01:45:56.359 Because you could run it in WSL, but you're basically 01:45:56.359 --> 01:45:59.460 running in Linux, right? So is there a native 01:45:59.460 --> 01:46:01.899 Windows NeoVim package and does it work? How 01:46:01.899 --> 01:46:04.840 compatible is it? Yeah, no, it works. It works. 01:46:04.880 --> 01:46:08.239 It runs in Windows Terminal or I think even like 01:46:08.239 --> 01:46:13.680 the cmd .exe thing. It runs in PowerShell. Like 01:46:13.680 --> 01:46:16.140 we have our build system supports Windows. It 01:46:16.140 --> 01:46:20.029 requires Visual Studio. to which is like the 01:46:20.029 --> 01:46:23.770 compiler on windows to it to build it or have 01:46:23.770 --> 01:46:26.189 to install like mngw or whatever but no it works 01:46:26.189 --> 01:46:29.630 it's a huge pain in the ass to do at least for 01:46:29.630 --> 01:46:32.069 me because i'm not like a windows user but you 01:46:32.069 --> 01:46:36.569 can do it um and can you there there are some 01:46:36.569 --> 01:46:40.310 plugins work and all that stuff i think so to 01:46:40.310 --> 01:46:42.029 be honest i haven't actually like used neoman 01:46:42.029 --> 01:46:44.130 like like really used it on windows i've only 01:46:44.130 --> 01:46:47.270 built it to try to debug stuff but there are 01:46:47.270 --> 01:46:51.109 some really weird So we were talking earlier 01:46:51.109 --> 01:46:53.109 about how the terminal is confusing to a lot 01:46:53.109 --> 01:46:55.069 of users. It's even more so on Windows because 01:46:55.069 --> 01:46:59.750 Windows has to emulate the TTY layer that Unix 01:46:59.750 --> 01:47:02.609 uses. So we were talking earlier about how there's 01:47:02.609 --> 01:47:04.590 all these different layers, Tmux, your terminal, 01:47:04.689 --> 01:47:07.350 right? On Windows, you're going through a whole 01:47:07.350 --> 01:47:10.989 emulation layer. And that messes a bunch of stuff 01:47:10.989 --> 01:47:14.510 up. So we have tests in our test suite in NeoVim 01:47:14.510 --> 01:47:17.529 that we just skip on Windows because they literally 01:47:17.529 --> 01:47:19.449 don't work. on Windows because they go through 01:47:19.449 --> 01:47:22.289 this emulation layer. Yeah, so it does work. 01:47:22.390 --> 01:47:24.729 I know we have users that use Windows. They're 01:47:24.729 --> 01:47:28.270 in the minority for sure. I will say if one of 01:47:28.270 --> 01:47:30.609 your users or viewers is watching this who's 01:47:30.609 --> 01:47:33.470 a Windows user and likes NeoVim and wants to 01:47:33.470 --> 01:47:37.069 contribute, we are in desperate need of someone 01:47:37.069 --> 01:47:40.670 to own, be our Windows person on the NeoVim team. 01:47:40.949 --> 01:47:43.609 So if any ambitious viewers are like, I want 01:47:43.609 --> 01:47:46.069 to be on the NeoVim core team, if you come in, 01:47:46.409 --> 01:47:49.550 can be our Windows person, that would be a really 01:47:49.550 --> 01:47:53.489 easy way to get in. What are the requirements? 01:47:53.829 --> 01:47:59.270 What are you looking for in a person? Generally, 01:47:59.550 --> 01:48:01.670 in the past, when people have been moved into 01:48:01.670 --> 01:48:05.229 the core team, it's a history of good contributions, 01:48:05.470 --> 01:48:11.449 understanding the development process, good issue 01:48:11.449 --> 01:48:13.670 triaging, being able to respond to issues and 01:48:13.670 --> 01:48:20.760 understand Being able to identify what the problem 01:48:20.760 --> 01:48:23.119 is and solve them. It's not formal. There's no 01:48:23.119 --> 01:48:25.399 application process or anything. Usually when 01:48:25.399 --> 01:48:27.000 we see people that are consistently helpful and 01:48:27.000 --> 01:48:29.180 stick around, then we're like, hey, should we 01:48:29.180 --> 01:48:32.140 add them? Yeah, let's do it. We don't do it for 01:48:32.140 --> 01:48:33.279 everybody because not everyone sticks around 01:48:33.279 --> 01:48:35.840 for a long time. But if people are consistent, 01:48:36.199 --> 01:48:38.439 then we usually will add them to that helper 01:48:38.439 --> 01:48:40.619 group. And then if someone is in the helper group 01:48:40.619 --> 01:48:44.819 long enough, then they will often get... moved 01:48:44.819 --> 01:48:48.020 in to the core team. But I just feel like if 01:48:48.020 --> 01:48:50.819 someone were to come in and start solving a bunch 01:48:50.819 --> 01:48:54.000 of Windows problems, that would get noticed for 01:48:54.000 --> 01:48:57.039 sure and be very valuable. I'll create a clip 01:48:57.039 --> 01:48:59.479 out of this and share it as a separate video. 01:48:59.880 --> 01:49:04.859 Like a NeoVim Windows logo and catchy title. 01:49:05.800 --> 01:49:08.300 We'll see what happens. Maybe someone shows up. 01:49:09.239 --> 01:49:12.100 And you were talking about operating systems. 01:49:12.119 --> 01:49:16.399 Sorry, I interrupted you there. Yeah, I was talking 01:49:16.399 --> 01:49:20.000 about how I switched to using a Mac right after 01:49:20.000 --> 01:49:22.779 college, and I've used a Mac ever since as my 01:49:22.779 --> 01:49:27.399 personal computer. And I've used... I do own 01:49:27.399 --> 01:49:30.260 a desktop PC that I use for just playing games, 01:49:30.380 --> 01:49:34.260 and that runs Venora. It runs Linux. And I use 01:49:34.260 --> 01:49:38.479 Linux at work. So I also spend a good amount 01:49:38.479 --> 01:49:42.699 of time on Linux. Linux is fine. It's not... 01:49:43.200 --> 01:49:46.039 I think it really depends on the hardware is 01:49:46.039 --> 01:49:48.520 what I've been my experience. So like on my desktop 01:49:48.520 --> 01:49:51.539 PC, Linux is pretty, pretty reliable and pretty 01:49:51.539 --> 01:49:54.140 stable. There's some issues. I did have an issue 01:49:54.140 --> 01:49:57.619 where for like months when I was spent, like 01:49:57.619 --> 01:49:59.939 put the desktop to sleep, it wouldn't come back 01:49:59.939 --> 01:50:01.960 on. It would like wouldn't wake up. So I had 01:50:01.960 --> 01:50:04.220 like force powered off. And so I got into the 01:50:04.220 --> 01:50:05.819 habit of just like shutting it down when I was 01:50:05.819 --> 01:50:09.460 done, which was super annoying. And I, I like 01:50:09.460 --> 01:50:12.510 totally by luck happened to learn. that this 01:50:12.510 --> 01:50:14.970 is because of a bug in the Bluetooth driver. 01:50:15.289 --> 01:50:17.729 So if I disable Bluetooth before suspending, 01:50:17.810 --> 01:50:19.430 then it would work, and it would come back online, 01:50:19.649 --> 01:50:22.890 which is just such a Linux thing, right? It's 01:50:22.890 --> 01:50:25.069 like, where's your Linux bingo card? Bluetooth 01:50:25.069 --> 01:50:28.810 issues? Wake from suspend issues? Yeah, all I 01:50:28.810 --> 01:50:32.250 needed was an audio bug. And on my work laptop, 01:50:32.569 --> 01:50:34.850 I have a Dell laptop I use at work that runs 01:50:34.850 --> 01:50:37.170 Ubuntu, and I do have audio issues there. So 01:50:37.170 --> 01:50:43.479 my bingo card is all checked. No, I think, I 01:50:43.479 --> 01:50:47.720 mean, when I do use Linux, I just use GNOME. 01:50:47.760 --> 01:50:51.020 I don't use a window manager or anything. I just 01:50:51.020 --> 01:50:53.600 use GNOME. It's pretty similar to macOS, so I 01:50:53.600 --> 01:50:56.399 like it. I like the way it looks. It looks pretty 01:50:56.399 --> 01:51:00.380 to me. I'm happy with it. I don't do anything 01:51:00.380 --> 01:51:03.560 fancy there. But I definitely prefer macOS. I 01:51:03.560 --> 01:51:06.239 know that's like heresy in the open source world, 01:51:06.340 --> 01:51:09.220 but I'm happy with it. It works. It does what 01:51:09.220 --> 01:51:13.479 I need it to do. It looks nice. I just had to 01:51:13.479 --> 01:51:18.979 sell my soul to a couple. Okay. What are your 01:51:18.979 --> 01:51:23.220 thoughts? I also have an iPhone. We talked about 01:51:23.220 --> 01:51:25.239 this earlier, but I'm completely Apple -billed. 01:51:25.380 --> 01:51:29.319 I have an iPhone. I have AirPods. I have an Apple 01:51:29.319 --> 01:51:32.500 Watch. I have an iPad. I have an Apple TV. I 01:51:32.500 --> 01:51:36.760 have all the Apple crap. No, I don't have the 01:51:36.760 --> 01:51:40.550 TV. But consistently, I'm going to sound like 01:51:40.550 --> 01:51:42.829 a fanboy here, but I really believe this. Consistently, 01:51:42.829 --> 01:51:46.810 in my experience, the Apple products just are 01:51:46.810 --> 01:51:50.130 usually the best in their category. The MacBook 01:51:50.130 --> 01:51:53.850 laptop, I will die on this deal, is the best 01:51:53.850 --> 01:51:56.369 laptop on the market. I think that for the price, 01:51:56.470 --> 01:51:59.210 the price per performance, price per watt, whatever, 01:51:59.409 --> 01:52:03.069 the MacBook Air... is the best laptop. It's the 01:52:03.069 --> 01:52:04.930 laptop I would recommend to anybody. You can 01:52:04.930 --> 01:52:07.270 get one for under $1 ,000. The battery life is 01:52:07.270 --> 01:52:09.449 incredible. The display is incredible. The build 01:52:09.449 --> 01:52:12.029 quality is amazing. It has no fan. It's completely 01:52:12.029 --> 01:52:14.550 silent. You will not get a better laptop for 01:52:14.550 --> 01:52:17.029 the same cost as a MacBook Air. Now, there are 01:52:17.029 --> 01:52:18.949 some people that just hate macOS, so they won't 01:52:18.949 --> 01:52:23.810 even consider it. But hardware -wise, that's 01:52:23.810 --> 01:52:27.520 a hell of a buy -on. the air i love my airpods 01:52:27.520 --> 01:52:29.739 right i know i'm gonna sound like a fanboy i 01:52:29.739 --> 01:52:32.399 already said that once but they just work so 01:52:32.399 --> 01:52:34.800 well right i i used my very first smartphone 01:52:34.800 --> 01:52:37.239 was an android this is a long time ago back in 01:52:37.239 --> 01:52:41.279 in the like 2008 or something um but i had like 01:52:41.279 --> 01:52:44.579 an htc android thing and my first two smartphones 01:52:44.579 --> 01:52:47.220 were both androids and then i switched to an 01:52:47.220 --> 01:52:50.739 iphone at the time it was like the iphone 4 or 01:52:50.739 --> 01:52:54.390 something And it was so much better. It was night 01:52:54.390 --> 01:52:56.270 and day. Once I got the iPhone, I was like, oh 01:52:56.270 --> 01:52:57.810 my gosh, I can't believe how much better this 01:52:57.810 --> 01:53:01.010 is. It was faster. It was smoother. The battery 01:53:01.010 --> 01:53:03.130 life was better. And so I've used an iPhone ever 01:53:03.130 --> 01:53:05.109 since then. That was even before I switched to 01:53:05.109 --> 01:53:08.550 Mac. I was using Windows at the time. Same thing 01:53:08.550 --> 01:53:10.449 with Apple TV. Before I had an Apple TV, we had 01:53:10.449 --> 01:53:13.289 the Roku. We tried the Amazon Fire Stick, and 01:53:13.289 --> 01:53:15.470 they were all trash. They all sucked. And then 01:53:15.470 --> 01:53:17.609 we got the Apple TV and it just, so I'm like, 01:53:17.750 --> 01:53:20.850 I'm like someone, please pull me out of my Apple 01:53:20.850 --> 01:53:23.449 addiction and make a better product. So I don't 01:53:23.449 --> 01:53:26.130 have to keep using Apple stuff. But, uh, but 01:53:26.130 --> 01:53:27.970 then Apple, the way that Apple gets you, of course, 01:53:27.970 --> 01:53:30.350 is everything integrates so well, right? Like 01:53:30.350 --> 01:53:33.930 that, uh, I was thinking about this the other 01:53:33.930 --> 01:53:36.430 day, people talk about the walled garden. Like 01:53:36.430 --> 01:53:37.930 that's the metaphor they use to describe Apple. 01:53:38.409 --> 01:53:40.569 And they use it in a negative term that I talk 01:53:40.569 --> 01:53:43.010 about Apple's a walled garden. And when people 01:53:43.010 --> 01:53:44.789 talk about that in the negative term, they're 01:53:44.789 --> 01:53:47.430 emphasizing the walls. They're saying you're 01:53:47.430 --> 01:53:50.989 blocked in, you're walled in. But what they forget 01:53:50.989 --> 01:53:53.310 is the garden part. Like if you've ever been 01:53:53.310 --> 01:53:55.590 in a walled garden, it's actually pretty nice. 01:53:55.630 --> 01:53:57.270 You're in a nice little garden. You have these 01:53:57.270 --> 01:53:59.789 nice walls around you keeping it quiet. And it's 01:53:59.789 --> 01:54:02.630 beautiful, right? Like, yeah, there are walls, 01:54:02.869 --> 01:54:05.010 but there's also this beautiful garden that I'm 01:54:05.010 --> 01:54:07.710 enjoying. So yeah, I'm in the walled garden for 01:54:07.710 --> 01:54:10.649 sure. But it's better, you know, I'm enjoying 01:54:10.649 --> 01:54:13.659 the garden at least. Are there any plans then 01:54:13.659 --> 01:54:19.800 to leave that card in? No. I mean, if iMessage 01:54:19.800 --> 01:54:25.399 ever works on Linux, that would be a big step. 01:54:26.060 --> 01:54:29.920 And if I could ever find a laptop that competed 01:54:29.920 --> 01:54:35.260 with the MacBook on noise, battery life, performance, 01:54:35.560 --> 01:54:39.899 build quality, camera quality. And the operating 01:54:39.899 --> 01:54:44.119 system, macOS. I mean, I like macOS. It's not 01:54:44.119 --> 01:54:48.960 perfect, but I like... I know with the upcoming 01:54:48.960 --> 01:54:51.079 macOS release, there's been a lot of memes about 01:54:51.079 --> 01:54:55.260 the new liquid glass. I haven't tried it, so 01:54:55.260 --> 01:54:58.579 I don't really have any opinions on it. But aside 01:54:58.579 --> 01:55:02.760 from that, up until now, anyway, I've generally 01:55:02.760 --> 01:55:05.340 been pretty happy with the aesthetic design decisions 01:55:05.340 --> 01:55:11.359 of Apple. I like it. On Linux, I'm also pretty 01:55:11.359 --> 01:55:14.199 happy with GNOME. If I switched to GNOME, I think 01:55:14.199 --> 01:55:19.539 I would be okay with that. I used to make fun 01:55:19.539 --> 01:55:23.000 of... It's nice to just... On Mac OS, things 01:55:23.000 --> 01:55:27.680 just work. I open my laptop when it's been closed 01:55:27.680 --> 01:55:31.020 for two weeks on my desk, and it's actually been 01:55:31.020 --> 01:55:33.260 asleep, and I open the lid, the screen comes 01:55:33.260 --> 01:55:37.199 on immediately, and the battery is still 80 % 01:55:37.199 --> 01:55:41.020 charged. That is not the case with my Linux laptop. 01:55:42.060 --> 01:55:44.779 The fan on this thing, I don't think it even 01:55:44.779 --> 01:55:47.079 has a fan. I have a MacBook Pro, so it might 01:55:47.079 --> 01:55:51.340 have a small fan. It sounds, when I'm doing a 01:55:51.340 --> 01:55:54.899 call with four guests, I'm pushing it. The CPU 01:55:54.899 --> 01:55:57.460 is at 80 % and it requires a lot because I have 01:55:57.460 --> 01:56:00.260 a MacBook Pro as well, an M4. And that's when 01:56:00.260 --> 01:56:02.939 I hear the fan, but it's really loud. I'm sorry, 01:56:03.060 --> 01:56:05.300 it's really low. Nothing compared to a Windows 01:56:05.300 --> 01:56:11.189 airplane. Yeah, so I never have any audio issues. 01:56:11.310 --> 01:56:13.869 My headphones always just connect and just work. 01:56:14.590 --> 01:56:17.170 Do you have a problem when your headphones are 01:56:17.170 --> 01:56:19.430 connected to the phone and you want them to connect 01:56:19.430 --> 01:56:22.890 to the computer? Do you have a shortcut or how 01:56:22.890 --> 01:56:25.689 do you do it? Because sometimes they stay connected 01:56:25.689 --> 01:56:28.130 to the phone. There's an application called, 01:56:28.329 --> 01:56:30.869 I don't remember, but I have a key map, right? 01:56:30.909 --> 01:56:34.210 So if I type a key, it connects them to my computer. 01:56:34.840 --> 01:56:36.840 and i can switch the audio source because sometimes 01:56:36.840 --> 01:56:39.279 they stay connected to the phone for some reason 01:56:39.279 --> 01:56:43.039 right so so in my experience with the airpods 01:56:43.039 --> 01:56:44.840 this is one thing that's really nice about the 01:56:44.840 --> 01:56:46.619 integration everything right between the iphone 01:56:46.619 --> 01:56:50.079 and the laptop let's say i'm using my airpods 01:56:50.079 --> 01:56:53.239 with my iphone and then i and i open my laptop 01:56:53.239 --> 01:56:56.380 i get a little notification that says i've detected 01:56:56.380 --> 01:56:58.800 airpods and i can click connect if i want them 01:56:58.800 --> 01:57:00.800 to switch to my macbook But if I don't click 01:57:00.800 --> 01:57:03.380 that, it doesn't switch. Oh, with that AirBody, 01:57:03.460 --> 01:57:05.720 you use an application called AirBody something. 01:57:06.000 --> 01:57:10.880 No, this is just all native. And then the AirPods 01:57:10.880 --> 01:57:14.739 are also pretty good about intelligently switching. 01:57:15.140 --> 01:57:18.380 So let's say the reverse situation. I have them 01:57:18.380 --> 01:57:21.359 connected to my MacBook. And then I pull out 01:57:21.359 --> 01:57:23.520 my phone and I want to play a video on my phone. 01:57:24.000 --> 01:57:27.430 It's like... Somehow it knows that because now 01:57:27.430 --> 01:57:29.670 audio is playing on my phone, it will automatically 01:57:29.670 --> 01:57:31.949 switch the AirPods to connect to my phone instead. 01:57:32.310 --> 01:57:34.430 And then as soon as I go back to my laptop and 01:57:34.430 --> 01:57:36.949 start playing audio from my laptop again, it'll 01:57:36.949 --> 01:57:39.550 switch back to my... So the AirPods are really... 01:57:39.550 --> 01:57:42.130 That's the kind of stuff that keeps you hooked, 01:57:42.189 --> 01:57:44.609 right? That integration that works really well. 01:57:45.529 --> 01:57:49.869 Yeah. Yeah. I used to make fun of Android... 01:57:49.869 --> 01:57:53.210 No, iPhone users, because I was an Android user. 01:57:53.289 --> 01:57:55.310 I have been all my life, you know? And I was 01:57:55.310 --> 01:57:57.689 like, iPhone. So why do you need an iPhone? Because 01:57:57.689 --> 01:58:01.989 there's this image that you have of iPhone users, 01:58:02.310 --> 01:58:06.829 right? Then I started with Mac OS. Then I got 01:58:06.829 --> 01:58:08.850 the iPhone. I loved it. You know, the integration 01:58:08.850 --> 01:58:11.569 between the two devices. It's like, man, the 01:58:11.569 --> 01:58:14.069 shared clipboard. I tried that. The shared clipboard 01:58:14.069 --> 01:58:17.010 is awesome. Yeah. Oh, it's so great, man. I love 01:58:17.010 --> 01:58:20.810 that feature. What do people think? What do the 01:58:20.810 --> 01:58:25.090 rest of the people think? Especially in our community, 01:58:25.329 --> 01:58:27.250 you know, NeoVim, Terminals, all that stuff. 01:58:27.529 --> 01:58:29.729 What do others think about your love for Apple? 01:58:30.149 --> 01:58:32.689 Because most of them, are they most of them Windows? 01:58:32.869 --> 01:58:36.750 Or how are things there? On the NeoVim team, 01:58:36.789 --> 01:58:41.029 it's split. We have about half of the people 01:58:41.029 --> 01:58:44.229 use... Actually, no, it's not split even. I think 01:58:44.229 --> 01:58:48.619 there's only a few of us that use... Mac OS and 01:58:48.619 --> 01:58:51.199 the rest use Linux. I think I might be. So I 01:58:51.199 --> 01:58:56.720 will say on the core team, I'm maybe the only, 01:58:56.800 --> 01:58:58.979 I think Justin's the other one. There are not 01:58:58.979 --> 01:59:02.119 very many Americans. So I'm one of only one or 01:59:02.119 --> 01:59:04.539 two Americans. We have a lot of people that live 01:59:04.539 --> 01:59:08.340 in Europe. And so just based on that, like the 01:59:08.340 --> 01:59:11.659 iPhone just alone is much less common in Europe. 01:59:11.699 --> 01:59:14.069 So I think I'm like the only iPhone user. But 01:59:14.069 --> 01:59:16.170 we have a few other Mac users. I don't know. 01:59:16.229 --> 01:59:19.409 I've kind of just accepted the fact that liking 01:59:19.409 --> 01:59:22.369 Apple is a controversial, or not liking Apple, 01:59:22.449 --> 01:59:29.689 liking Apple products is a controversial, unpopular 01:59:29.689 --> 01:59:31.710 opinion in the open source world. And I've just 01:59:31.710 --> 01:59:34.090 embraced it. I'm like, whatever. I don't care. 01:59:34.670 --> 01:59:37.630 It's funny because I live these two separate 01:59:37.630 --> 01:59:41.689 lives because outside of the open source world, 01:59:42.189 --> 01:59:44.689 in like the tech community people that i know 01:59:44.689 --> 01:59:46.310 in real life i definitely live in like a little 01:59:46.310 --> 01:59:48.789 bubble but like basically everyone i know has 01:59:48.789 --> 01:59:52.430 an iphone like it's it's very rare to meet someone 01:59:52.430 --> 01:59:56.470 or to that i will text someone that has an android 01:59:56.470 --> 02:00:00.050 so it's it's very it's very opposite like this 02:00:00.050 --> 02:00:03.590 very contrasting would you like to talk about 02:00:03.590 --> 02:00:06.750 your keyboard um what do you use for keyboard 02:00:06.750 --> 02:00:11.800 i use a uh Let me pull the picture. I have it 02:00:11.800 --> 02:00:13.899 here on my desk, obviously, but it must be easier 02:00:13.899 --> 02:00:16.600 to pull the picture. But I use the Keychron Q11. 02:00:16.939 --> 02:00:21.340 Let's see. Is it right here? Oh, it's a split. 02:00:22.159 --> 02:00:24.819 Split keyboard, yes. I'm on the split keyboard 02:00:24.819 --> 02:00:26.760 game, and I probably will be for the rest of 02:00:26.760 --> 02:00:29.300 my life. I love it. Using a normal keyboard now, 02:00:29.460 --> 02:00:33.159 once you get used to a split keyboard, like that, 02:00:33.279 --> 02:00:36.680 having your arms so close, it just feels awkward 02:00:36.680 --> 02:00:41.550 to me now. The split is awesome. Before this, 02:00:41.670 --> 02:00:47.869 I tried the Moonlander, the ZSA Moonlander. It's 02:00:47.869 --> 02:00:51.850 this guy. And a lot of people love this thing. 02:00:53.829 --> 02:00:57.050 And if you go online and search for it, do some 02:00:57.050 --> 02:01:00.890 research. That's the recommendation. That one, 02:01:01.149 --> 02:01:04.470 the Glove 80, or the one that Prime uses? Yeah. 02:01:05.470 --> 02:01:07.310 Prime uses, I think, one of the Kinesis ones. 02:01:08.479 --> 02:01:13.619 I tried this and I did not like it and I I there's 02:01:13.619 --> 02:01:15.920 an expensive keyboard I returned it you have 02:01:15.920 --> 02:01:17.699 to pay the return shipping to Taiwan which is 02:01:17.699 --> 02:01:20.300 expensive so like it's it's expensive to return 02:01:20.300 --> 02:01:23.720 but it just was not a fit for me and I tried 02:01:23.720 --> 02:01:26.140 so hard like I really wanted to like it because 02:01:26.140 --> 02:01:29.939 people speak so highly of it but I found I did 02:01:29.939 --> 02:01:33.220 not like the ortho linear oh you don't like it 02:01:33.850 --> 02:01:37.649 No, and I couldn't find any reliable research 02:01:37.649 --> 02:01:40.649 or sources that suggested that it's actually 02:01:40.649 --> 02:01:43.329 better. It's just different. I think people like 02:01:43.329 --> 02:01:50.149 it because it's more logical, but unless I see 02:01:50.149 --> 02:01:53.109 a study that tells me otherwise, I'm not convinced 02:01:53.109 --> 02:01:57.689 that it's any better for you ergonomically. I'm 02:01:57.689 --> 02:02:00.050 a pretty good touch typist on a QWERTY keyboard. 02:02:00.590 --> 02:02:03.689 I can type over 100 words per minute pretty easily. 02:02:04.090 --> 02:02:06.390 So anything that messed with my touch typing, 02:02:06.590 --> 02:02:11.449 I really didn't like. And then I didn't like 02:02:11.449 --> 02:02:14.069 the thumb clusters. They actually ended up giving 02:02:14.069 --> 02:02:16.989 me more pain because I ended up making this motion 02:02:16.989 --> 02:02:23.270 a lot, right? Yep. And that in turn ended up 02:02:23.270 --> 02:02:25.670 triggering something in my forearm muscle. So 02:02:25.670 --> 02:02:29.279 it was like this ironic situation where... using 02:02:29.279 --> 02:02:31.560 the Moodlander was causing me more pain than 02:02:31.560 --> 02:02:35.399 just using a regular keyboard. I also didn't 02:02:35.399 --> 02:02:37.720 really like that. So the concept of having layers, 02:02:37.800 --> 02:02:42.039 I think, is cool. But I didn't like not having 02:02:42.039 --> 02:02:46.239 easy access to certain keys. So obviously, there's 02:02:46.239 --> 02:02:50.039 no function keys on here. I think even like arrow 02:02:50.039 --> 02:02:52.199 keys, you have to activate a layer to use arrow 02:02:52.199 --> 02:02:56.409 keys. Or they're in a weird position. And I think 02:02:56.409 --> 02:02:58.310 there are some others too. I don't remember off 02:02:58.310 --> 02:03:01.069 the top of my head now, but just looking at this 02:03:01.069 --> 02:03:05.630 picture, it's like maybe I think the escape is 02:03:05.630 --> 02:03:09.310 in a weird place. Anyway, the point is, it just 02:03:09.310 --> 02:03:11.350 felt weird to me. And what I came to realize 02:03:11.350 --> 02:03:15.649 about myself is, you know what? I just like the 02:03:15.649 --> 02:03:18.810 staggered QWERTY layout. I have no problems with 02:03:18.810 --> 02:03:21.539 it. I like having function keys. And so when 02:03:21.539 --> 02:03:23.520 I found this one, I was like, this is perfect. 02:03:23.699 --> 02:03:26.039 I don't need the numpad. It has function keys, 02:03:26.279 --> 02:03:29.500 has the staggered QWERTY layout, and it's split 02:03:29.500 --> 02:03:31.560 and it's mechanical and it's programmable. It 02:03:31.560 --> 02:03:36.020 still uses QMK or what it's called. Yeah. You 02:03:36.020 --> 02:03:38.119 can still program it. So I still have a layer. 02:03:38.239 --> 02:03:40.479 I have a symbol layer so I can press a key and 02:03:40.479 --> 02:03:43.159 I can type in like parentheses and stuff without 02:03:43.159 --> 02:03:45.319 having to stretch my hand. That was the one thing 02:03:45.319 --> 02:03:48.439 I took away from using the Moonlander. But yeah. 02:03:48.859 --> 02:03:50.539 I'm very happy with this keyboard. If this keyboard 02:03:50.539 --> 02:03:52.859 broke, I would just go buy another one. I use 02:03:52.859 --> 02:03:55.020 red keys because I know people are going to ask. 02:03:56.380 --> 02:04:01.500 Red keys? Okay. The Gateron Pro Reds. Those are 02:04:01.500 --> 02:04:04.039 soft. I had the Pro Reds in the Glove 80. I didn't 02:04:04.039 --> 02:04:07.300 like them because these are MX switches. I don't 02:04:07.300 --> 02:04:08.859 know about switches. I don't know about anything 02:04:08.859 --> 02:04:11.960 keyboards related, but these are MX. They're 02:04:11.960 --> 02:04:14.800 bigger switches, right? The ones that I use are 02:04:14.800 --> 02:04:19.859 Chalks. They're smaller. I didn't like the Pro 02:04:19.859 --> 02:04:23.359 Reds. They were clanky. I don't know. Yeah, I 02:04:23.359 --> 02:04:25.600 think I would also like the low -profile ones. 02:04:26.079 --> 02:04:30.779 If Keychron made a version of this with low -profile 02:04:30.779 --> 02:04:33.020 keys, I would buy it immediately. I wouldn't 02:04:33.020 --> 02:04:37.159 even think about it. But they don't. The deep 02:04:37.159 --> 02:04:41.579 keys don't bother me. I would prefer the shallower 02:04:41.579 --> 02:04:44.770 ones, but I can live with these. Did you ever 02:04:44.770 --> 02:04:48.149 use the Magic Keyboard, Apple's Magic Keyboard, 02:04:48.210 --> 02:04:51.529 the external one? I think I have used it, but 02:04:51.529 --> 02:04:55.930 I've never used it a lot. Like it's my primary 02:04:55.930 --> 02:05:01.210 keyboard. No. I don't own one. That was my favorite 02:05:01.210 --> 02:05:04.090 keyboard. But like you said, having the hands 02:05:04.090 --> 02:05:06.869 like this, pretty close, you know? Yeah. Hurt 02:05:06.869 --> 02:05:11.489 my forearm. I know. Man, if Apple get me to buy 02:05:11.489 --> 02:05:13.729 another product, if they made... The Magic Keyboard 02:05:13.729 --> 02:05:20.210 split version? Yeah. That's by far the best keyboard 02:05:20.210 --> 02:05:22.789 I have used. And I know people are going to hate 02:05:22.789 --> 02:05:24.670 this because I have a Glove 80. For people that 02:05:24.670 --> 02:05:26.590 don't know, I just don't have a regular keyboard. 02:05:26.810 --> 02:05:30.189 I have this one. But I still prefer the feeling 02:05:30.189 --> 02:05:33.430 of the external Magic Keyboard because it's pretty 02:05:33.430 --> 02:05:35.770 soft. I could type really fast on that thing. 02:05:36.510 --> 02:05:40.189 But it's not split. I hate that. Now, I got used 02:05:40.189 --> 02:05:44.930 to the ortholinear. piece but it took me a while 02:05:44.930 --> 02:05:47.869 it took me some time i hated typed in the the 02:05:47.869 --> 02:05:51.350 b uh character right b as in boy because it's 02:05:51.350 --> 02:05:55.189 it's it's hard to get used to it did you ever 02:05:55.189 --> 02:05:58.029 get used to yeah i think i was it was either 02:05:58.029 --> 02:06:01.350 the b or the n the b and the n yeah it sucks 02:06:01.350 --> 02:06:03.470 where i felt like i was having to stretch so 02:06:03.470 --> 02:06:05.409 much further yeah that was another thing i was 02:06:05.409 --> 02:06:07.289 like this just feels worse this doesn't feel 02:06:07.289 --> 02:06:09.949 better this feels worse so no the the day that 02:06:09.949 --> 02:06:12.729 i the day that i decided like i really fought 02:06:12.729 --> 02:06:14.390 it because i really really wanted to like the 02:06:14.390 --> 02:06:16.470 moon lander but the day that i like made the 02:06:16.470 --> 02:06:18.810 decision was like no i i'm not going to keep 02:06:18.810 --> 02:06:21.430 it i just felt like so much relief it was like 02:06:21.430 --> 02:06:24.510 i just knew it was the right choice so no i just 02:06:24.510 --> 02:06:26.789 stick to the i just stick to a staggered qwerty 02:06:26.789 --> 02:06:29.989 that's that's all i need and i i should say too 02:06:29.989 --> 02:06:32.489 like i don't really other than like the usual 02:06:32.489 --> 02:06:36.350 rsi stuff that every professional computer person 02:06:36.350 --> 02:06:38.189 has to be aware of i don't have any real issues 02:06:38.189 --> 02:06:41.479 so Obviously, people that do have to make different 02:06:41.479 --> 02:06:45.159 decisions, but I don't have to worry about that, 02:06:45.199 --> 02:06:47.739 at least not right now anyway. So on that, the 02:06:47.739 --> 02:06:51.140 split keyboard is all I need. Yep. Do you use 02:06:51.140 --> 02:06:56.260 the arrows or not at all on your keyboard? I'm 02:06:56.260 --> 02:07:01.319 sure that I do use them, but not a ton. Obviously, 02:07:01.579 --> 02:07:06.989 using them, I don't use them much. Have you heard 02:07:06.989 --> 02:07:09.710 about this application kind of in macOS that 02:07:09.710 --> 02:07:12.569 allows you to use spin motions everywhere? It's 02:07:12.569 --> 02:07:15.470 not open source. The code is not publicly available. 02:07:15.710 --> 02:07:18.069 It's a paid application. So that's a big no -go 02:07:18.069 --> 02:07:20.470 for a lot of people because, you know, you don't 02:07:20.470 --> 02:07:22.529 know what's going on. And it's sensitive stuff 02:07:22.529 --> 02:07:26.470 that it has access to. Yeah. I know there's... 02:07:26.470 --> 02:07:28.270 You're not talking about Karabiner, are you? 02:07:28.680 --> 02:07:30.640 No, I use Carabiner. Carabiner is open source, 02:07:30.659 --> 02:07:33.060 I think. Yeah, Carabiner is open source. I think 02:07:33.060 --> 02:07:35.159 Carabiner can do that. I think I might have even 02:07:35.159 --> 02:07:40.399 experimented with it. No, I don't know. I just 02:07:40.399 --> 02:07:42.979 kind of use the default most of the time. Yeah. 02:07:43.119 --> 02:07:47.340 No, this kind of allows you to enter normal mode. 02:07:48.250 --> 02:07:50.710 in any application like in your email right you're 02:07:50.710 --> 02:07:53.529 typing an email you press kj you enter normal 02:07:53.529 --> 02:07:55.949 mode and you can navigate around then you jump 02:07:55.949 --> 02:07:58.930 into insert mode normal mode it uses the mac 02:07:58.930 --> 02:08:03.810 os um accessibility api oh yeah discord slack 02:08:03.810 --> 02:08:07.390 basically everywhere use them that navigation 02:08:07.390 --> 02:08:10.949 layer in insert normal mode visual mode as well 02:08:10.949 --> 02:08:15.430 not perfect but um it's it's kind of nice especially 02:08:15.430 --> 02:08:19.170 you know if you're used to to NeoVim or Vim stuff, 02:08:19.390 --> 02:08:23.090 actually. All right, I haven't tried it, but 02:08:23.090 --> 02:08:25.510 I'll check it out. What's it called? Kind of 02:08:25.510 --> 02:08:29.770 Vim. Let me see. I had a call with that guy. 02:08:29.930 --> 02:08:33.109 It's a French guy. Let me share my screen. I'll 02:08:33.109 --> 02:08:39.229 show it to you. Where's my screen? Here. This 02:08:39.229 --> 02:08:46.250 kind of Vim mode. So just to give you an example. 02:08:46.810 --> 02:08:51.050 Let me see. What can I bring up? I don't want 02:08:51.050 --> 02:08:55.210 to show my email. Discord. I can bring up Discord 02:08:55.210 --> 02:09:00.729 here. So here I have Discord and I'm just going 02:09:00.729 --> 02:09:07.729 to jump to aerospace, but better here. Are you 02:09:07.729 --> 02:09:12.090 able to see Discord there? Yeah. How do I zoom 02:09:12.090 --> 02:09:15.710 in? Just move this a little bit to the side. 02:09:18.559 --> 02:09:29.100 there why so mean oh okay there there there so 02:09:29.100 --> 02:09:35.199 if I type something here if I oh you cannot see 02:09:35.199 --> 02:09:38.199 because of these this green thing there let me 02:09:38.199 --> 02:09:41.460 move it around okay so if I type this and if 02:09:41.460 --> 02:09:46.000 I press KJ here applications in the background 02:09:46.000 --> 02:09:49.479 turn like dark, darker, that tells me that I'm 02:09:49.479 --> 02:09:53.380 in normal mode. So I can type B here and I can 02:09:53.380 --> 02:09:59.039 just type in the VE, you know, or CE. I can change 02:09:59.039 --> 02:10:03.479 this, you know, and just edit stuff that way. 02:10:03.619 --> 02:10:08.439 JK, normal mode, you know, so it's useful for 02:10:08.439 --> 02:10:12.600 emails, for Discord, Slack, that type of thing. 02:10:14.380 --> 02:10:18.680 Oh, nice. Do you use any window manager? Any? 02:10:19.779 --> 02:10:24.739 No. I've tried them in the past. I used i3 for 02:10:24.739 --> 02:10:27.039 a little bit when I was on Linux. It was fine. 02:10:27.199 --> 02:10:33.960 I liked it. I didn't feel like I loved it enough. 02:10:34.159 --> 02:10:38.380 I never got hooked on it, I guess. I did try 02:10:38.380 --> 02:10:42.079 some macOS ones, but I don't really like any 02:10:42.079 --> 02:10:46.310 of them. No, I don't know. I actually, I like 02:10:46.310 --> 02:10:48.289 just like the floating windows, like the floating 02:10:48.289 --> 02:10:51.649 window thing. I don't need my windows to be tiled. 02:10:51.729 --> 02:10:53.649 And I know some people have like really sophisticated, 02:10:53.909 --> 02:10:56.909 like power user configurations with their time 02:10:56.909 --> 02:10:58.409 and demand your setups. I think that's great. 02:10:58.510 --> 02:11:00.850 It looks awesome. I don't know. I don't like 02:11:00.850 --> 02:11:03.510 I think about like the amount of time and effort 02:11:03.510 --> 02:11:06.029 it would take to set that up. Yep. I just don't 02:11:06.029 --> 02:11:09.569 feel that motivated to do it because I don't 02:11:09.569 --> 02:11:11.430 know. It doesn't sound fun for me right now. 02:11:11.720 --> 02:11:16.600 it's not fun then i'm probably not gonna find 02:11:16.600 --> 02:11:21.159 the time for it any final words any final stuff 02:11:21.159 --> 02:11:25.180 that you want that you want to talk about um 02:11:25.180 --> 02:11:28.399 this is super fun thanks for having me uh i hope 02:11:28.399 --> 02:11:32.300 um i i mentioned this last time um and i'll repeat 02:11:32.300 --> 02:11:34.880 it i'm you know super honored to be on the new 02:11:34.880 --> 02:11:39.060 vim team uh it never feels like a chore it always 02:11:39.060 --> 02:11:41.770 feels extremely satisfying to know that we have 02:11:41.770 --> 02:11:45.310 so many users that enjoy it and christian and 02:11:45.310 --> 02:11:48.449 i were talking earlier about how you and i were 02:11:48.449 --> 02:11:51.829 talking earlier about how um neovim has been 02:11:51.829 --> 02:11:54.189 like the most admired editor in the stack overflow 02:11:54.189 --> 02:11:56.529 survey for like five years in a row now which 02:11:56.529 --> 02:11:59.130 is awesome like that's so cool that people love 02:11:59.130 --> 02:12:02.350 it so much so i'm i just feel honored to be a 02:12:02.350 --> 02:12:06.270 part of it i don't have any plans to stop i'll 02:12:06.270 --> 02:12:08.699 always you know We need to be involved in some 02:12:08.699 --> 02:12:14.060 capacity for the foreseeable future. So, yeah. 02:12:15.100 --> 02:12:19.720 And just pop into the Matrix chat and say, hi, 02:12:19.739 --> 02:12:23.380 we have an off -topic channel that people can 02:12:23.380 --> 02:12:26.539 jump into. And it truly is off -topic. We are 02:12:26.539 --> 02:12:28.359 actually kind of strict about that. If you come 02:12:28.359 --> 02:12:29.739 into the off -topic channel and start asking 02:12:29.739 --> 02:12:31.279 questions about NeoVim, we'll tell you to leave 02:12:31.279 --> 02:12:36.460 and go to the on -topic channel. So most of the 02:12:36.460 --> 02:12:42.000 core team hangs out in there. Yeah. I don't have 02:12:42.000 --> 02:12:44.520 anything else to add. All right. Awesome, Greg. 02:12:44.979 --> 02:12:48.000 I just want to say thanks for your time. Thanks 02:12:48.000 --> 02:12:51.340 for showing up, you know, and sharing with all 02:12:51.340 --> 02:12:53.800 of us. Going to be editing the video and sharing 02:12:53.800 --> 02:12:56.420 it, you know, in the next couple of days. So 02:12:56.420 --> 02:12:59.220 thank you very much, man. Yeah, thanks a lot, 02:12:59.260 --> 02:13:00.520 Christian, for organizing this. This was fun. 02:13:00.739 --> 02:13:04.310 Yep. No worries. Whenever you want to talk about 02:13:04.310 --> 02:13:06.609 something, reach out and we can create a video. 02:13:06.670 --> 02:13:09.409 If you want to demo something about NeoVim. I 02:13:09.409 --> 02:13:11.850 don't have a large audience, but at least we 02:13:11.850 --> 02:13:15.869 get, you know, a couple of users. Yeah, it's 02:13:15.869 --> 02:13:19.829 more than I have. Right, Greg. Appreciate it, 02:13:19.829 --> 02:13:22.850 man. Have a great day. Notice how I was able 02:13:22.850 --> 02:13:26.100 to jump to this Tmux session here. And the reason 02:13:26.100 --> 02:13:28.859 you're here is because I want to thank the different 02:13:28.859 --> 02:13:31.819 YouTube members. You should be able to see their 02:13:31.819 --> 02:13:35.520 names listed here. The first CEO that joined 02:13:35.520 --> 02:13:39.279 Webto3, webto3 .com. We have three executive 02:13:39.279 --> 02:13:42.720 producers and the other YouTube members. I also 02:13:42.720 --> 02:13:44.699 want to thank the people that have donated in 02:13:44.699 --> 02:13:47.760 Ko -fi. If you like my videos, remember that 02:13:47.760 --> 02:13:50.699 you can consider becoming a member. That is what 02:13:50.699 --> 02:13:54.319 helps keep the channel going. Remember that if 02:13:54.319 --> 02:13:56.920 you like this video, give it a thumbs up. That 02:13:56.920 --> 02:14:00.439 just tells YouTube that the video is interesting 02:14:00.439 --> 02:14:04.539 for other people. Leave comments. Watch the entire 02:14:04.539 --> 02:14:08.119 thing because that increases the average view 02:14:08.119 --> 02:14:11.539 time. And the more view time a video has, the 02:14:11.539 --> 02:14:15.420 more YouTube shows it to other people. So yeah, 02:14:15.520 --> 02:14:18.859 every view counts. Every view helps. Every comment, 02:14:19.039 --> 02:14:22.960 every like. support the channel however you can