WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.740 And then people were like, well, this doesn't work in tmux, and 00:00:02.740 --> 00:00:05.320 it doesn't work in WeChat, and it doesn't work in vim. 00:00:05.420 --> 00:00:06.600 And I'm like, what the hell? 00:00:07.000 --> 00:00:10.840 And then my next windmill that I'm looking at is variable-sized 00:00:10.840 --> 00:00:11.680 text in the terminal. 00:00:12.800 --> 00:00:16.240 So when I'm catting a markdown file, I want to see the headings big and. 00:00:17.240 --> 00:00:20.320 Like in emacs, right? Yes, yes. 00:00:20.460 --> 00:00:22.840 So why should only emacs user benefit. 00:00:23.440 --> 00:00:26.640 Like Rio, for example, is a new terminal out there. 00:00:26.640 --> 00:00:32.080 So it can adopt the kitty graphics protocol and use it, right? Yes, absolutely. 00:00:32.200 --> 00:00:34.140 I encourage everyone to adopt it. 00:00:34.400 --> 00:00:35.380 There's an open spec. 00:00:35.600 --> 00:00:40.640 It's using kitty to replace the file open dialogs in Linux. 00:00:40.980 --> 00:00:43.980 You say file, save page as. 00:00:44.300 --> 00:00:47.240 Here you see there's actually a kitty instance that's running 00:00:47.240 --> 00:00:48.900 a file choosing kitten. 00:00:49.440 --> 00:00:52.480 Because ebook readers are a big boom for elderly people because 00:00:52.480 --> 00:00:53.940 you can make the font size bigger. 00:00:54.640 --> 00:00:56.260 In fact, I do that myself. 00:00:57.240 --> 00:00:58.840 I don't know if you can see this on the screen. 00:00:59.480 --> 00:01:03.260 Yeah, as I age, my eyes have gotten weaker. 00:01:03.480 --> 00:01:06.340 And so I don't like to wear specs when reading on my Kindle. 00:01:06.480 --> 00:01:07.720 So I make the font size big. 00:01:08.400 --> 00:01:11.920 Do you ever get in trouble with kitty because of the language 00:01:11.920 --> 00:01:13.560 that you decided to use Python? 00:01:13.800 --> 00:01:18.560 Since we hear every, you know, nowadays everyone is like, rust, 00:01:18.880 --> 00:01:21.640 rust, rust, you just hear that everywhere, right? 00:01:23.840 --> 00:01:25.760 Um, I have a tough one for you. 00:01:25.840 --> 00:01:26.880 I have a good question. 00:01:26.880 --> 00:01:32.440 You want to see, let me grab your water first. Yep. Yep. 00:01:32.440 --> 00:01:35.500 So you mentioned that we briefly talked about it. 00:01:35.500 --> 00:01:38.480 I think you know what I'm going to ask probably, right? 00:01:38.840 --> 00:01:41.040 So what are your thoughts on tmux? 00:01:41.500 --> 00:01:47.100 Oh, I, do you talk to the tmux maintainer for compatibility? 00:01:47.100 --> 00:01:51.060 When you try to deploy something new, do you have communication? 00:01:51.500 --> 00:01:52.160 What's his name? 00:01:52.380 --> 00:01:53.880 Um, I don't remember his name. 00:01:56.180 --> 00:01:58.820 Um, I did try, but he wasn't interested. 00:01:59.760 --> 00:02:01.020 So I don't anymore. 00:02:01.700 --> 00:02:03.820 Your main IDE, which one is it? 00:02:04.940 --> 00:02:06.340 It's, uh, it used to be vim. 00:02:06.580 --> 00:02:08.060 Now it's, now it's neovim. 00:02:08.480 --> 00:02:10.420 So you can see this is a kitty file inside neovim. 00:02:11.020 --> 00:02:14.100 If you're listening to this as a podcast, remember that it was 00:02:14.100 --> 00:02:15.360 originally recorded as a video. 00:02:15.580 --> 00:02:17.900 If you're not following along, you can go to my YouTube channel. 00:02:18.140 --> 00:02:19.400 My username is Linkarzu. 00:02:19.820 --> 00:02:22.420 And if you want to support me to keep this podcast going, you 00:02:22.420 --> 00:02:23.680 can donate in Ko-fi. 00:02:24.180 --> 00:02:26.400 I'm going to leave a link in the description. All right. 00:02:26.400 --> 00:02:28.280 So let's get started with this chapter then. 00:02:29.460 --> 00:02:34.900 I have a special guest today, Kovid, which we all know is the 00:02:34.900 --> 00:02:36.100 creator of the Kitty Terminal. 00:02:36.300 --> 00:02:40.140 And I didn't know that you're, you're also the creator of another 00:02:40.140 --> 00:02:42.740 application called Calibre, right? 00:02:43.620 --> 00:02:46.360 Yes, in fact, Calibre is my main job. 00:02:46.620 --> 00:02:49.900 Kitty is my hobby. Oh, okay. 00:02:50.060 --> 00:02:51.660 So Calibre is the main one. 00:02:51.660 --> 00:02:54.640 So really appreciate you being here, Kovid. 00:02:55.340 --> 00:02:57.640 Really, really, you know, big fan of Kitty. 00:02:57.820 --> 00:03:01.800 So thank you very much for joining us and talking about your tools today. 00:03:02.100 --> 00:03:03.100 How's it going, by the way? 00:03:03.640 --> 00:03:04.140 It's very good. 00:03:04.360 --> 00:03:05.460 Thank you for having me. 00:03:06.340 --> 00:03:07.700 I'm looking forward to a fun chat. 00:03:08.640 --> 00:03:10.860 So what do you want to start with? 00:03:11.440 --> 00:03:12.720 How did it all get started? 00:03:12.960 --> 00:03:15.980 That's the first thing I want to know, because I thought, you 00:03:15.980 --> 00:03:17.780 know, that Kitty was the main thing. 00:03:17.820 --> 00:03:19.340 And I was like, okay, Kitty. 00:03:19.340 --> 00:03:24.960 And I went into your profile, to your website, and then I saw Calibre. 00:03:25.300 --> 00:03:26.980 And I was like, Calibre. 00:03:27.100 --> 00:03:29.200 I have seen that somewhere. 00:03:29.440 --> 00:03:31.840 It's something related to books, right? 00:03:32.380 --> 00:03:33.920 So I'll tell you the history. 00:03:35.500 --> 00:03:38.780 So I'm a big, personally, I'm a big reader of books. 00:03:39.120 --> 00:03:40.740 So I read like a hundred books a year. 00:03:40.760 --> 00:03:41.960 And I've been doing that all my life. 00:03:43.060 --> 00:03:47.840 So at some point, I was a grad student in the US at Caltech. 00:03:49.340 --> 00:03:53.740 And there, in the neighborhood, there were no good libraries with fiction books. 00:03:54.520 --> 00:03:57.520 And I was too poor to buy my own books at the time. 00:03:57.900 --> 00:04:03.940 But what I did have was a real MyTech Neo GPS navigation device. 00:04:04.960 --> 00:04:09.120 And so I used to get books from the internet, various places, 00:04:09.420 --> 00:04:11.800 convert them to text files, and read them on that device. 00:04:12.220 --> 00:04:15.000 So that was my first experience with e-books. 00:04:16.060 --> 00:04:20.820 So then, around 2006, I was still at Caltech, still a grad student, 00:04:21.200 --> 00:04:22.940 still a lot of time on my hands. 00:04:23.180 --> 00:04:27.360 And Sony released the first e-ink-based reader in the US. 00:04:28.080 --> 00:04:29.140 It was a PRS-500. 00:04:29.420 --> 00:04:32.020 So immediately, the day after it was released, I went and bought 00:04:32.020 --> 00:04:34.280 it, and I brought it home with me. 00:04:34.480 --> 00:04:35.940 And so I tried to use it. 00:04:36.460 --> 00:04:40.440 Unfortunately, Sony had a proprietary USB protocol. 00:04:40.860 --> 00:04:41.960 It didn't, it did. 00:04:42.040 --> 00:04:44.760 But nowadays, all readers connect either using the NTP protocol 00:04:44.760 --> 00:04:46.820 or the USB mouse-to-mouse device protocol. 00:04:47.380 --> 00:04:49.820 Just standardized, and there were tools to interact, libraries 00:04:49.820 --> 00:04:50.960 to interact with, and so on. 00:04:51.200 --> 00:04:53.920 But at that time, Sony had its own proprietary USB protocol. 00:04:54.920 --> 00:04:57.300 And so I couldn't get the device to connect to my linux computer. 00:04:57.820 --> 00:04:59.980 I had to use Sony's proprietary software. 00:05:00.320 --> 00:05:03.320 I mean, I don't remember now, but I think I got it either on the 00:05:03.320 --> 00:05:06.180 VM or on a Windows computer or something. 00:05:06.760 --> 00:05:10.540 But anyway, so I decided that, let me, since I know how to program, 00:05:12.280 --> 00:05:15.500 and I have some spare time, let me try to reverse-engineer it 00:05:15.500 --> 00:05:16.760 and get something working. 00:05:17.280 --> 00:05:20.980 So I found this website called mobileread.com, which I'm still 00:05:20.980 --> 00:05:21.560 a member of. 00:05:21.740 --> 00:05:23.660 There were a lot of people there, hanging out who were interested 00:05:23.660 --> 00:05:25.060 in the books to read. 00:05:26.260 --> 00:05:29.280 And so with the help of some people there, I remember, in particular, 00:05:29.820 --> 00:05:35.360 one guy from Russia named Igor, I ended up sort of reverse-engineering 00:05:35.360 --> 00:05:37.020 the USB protocol. 00:05:37.220 --> 00:05:40.720 So I used a tool to dump the actual package that the device would 00:05:40.720 --> 00:05:44.180 send in response to commands when using the Sony software. 00:05:44.780 --> 00:05:48.420 But I printed these out on paper, I mean, on U.S. letter sheets 00:05:48.420 --> 00:05:49.820 of paper, since I was in the U.S. 00:05:50.380 --> 00:05:53.680 And I would take them with me to lunch, and lunch was kind of 00:05:53.680 --> 00:05:54.540 a complete time for me. 00:05:54.560 --> 00:05:58.380 So I would just sit and eat my lunch and put all those cases of 00:05:58.380 --> 00:06:00.320 USB packets and try to reverse-engineer things. 00:06:00.680 --> 00:06:02.720 So anyway, I managed to reverse-engineer things with a lot of 00:06:02.720 --> 00:06:07.560 help, and I released a software, something called libprs500, a 00:06:07.560 --> 00:06:08.620 classic open source name. 00:06:09.820 --> 00:06:15.100 And so anyway, a lot of people were very happy to have that thing 00:06:15.100 --> 00:06:16.240 and got a bit of popularity. 00:06:16.460 --> 00:06:20.480 So I decided to write a GUI for it, just to, you know, front-end 00:06:20.480 --> 00:06:22.920 and add the ability. 00:06:23.160 --> 00:06:25.700 So Sony also, apart from the proprietary USB protocol, they also 00:06:25.700 --> 00:06:30.300 had their own e-book format called LRF, which was again proprietary 00:06:30.300 --> 00:06:32.020 and not documented and blah, blah, blah. 00:06:32.220 --> 00:06:35.720 So again, with the help of some people who had written some Python 00:06:35.720 --> 00:06:40.680 code to convert to parse the LRF format and convert to this one, 00:06:41.160 --> 00:06:44.600 I adapted that code and improved it and integrated it into libprs500 00:06:44.600 --> 00:06:48.700 and added a basic GUI just so you can connect your device and 00:06:48.700 --> 00:06:50.100 click on buttons to send books to it. 00:06:50.260 --> 00:06:51.020 It's that kind of thing. 00:06:51.500 --> 00:06:54.740 So that was the start of what eventually became Calibre. 00:06:55.240 --> 00:06:58.240 So for a couple of years, I just kept doing that. 00:06:58.560 --> 00:06:59.980 I would do these things every few days. 00:07:00.200 --> 00:07:05.800 I'd fix new things, find new bugs, whatever, get all enthusiastic users. 00:07:05.800 --> 00:07:10.320 So at some point I decided, okay, let me put out a donate button 00:07:10.320 --> 00:07:11.120 for this thing. 00:07:11.780 --> 00:07:13.160 Maybe I'll get a pizza, I'll be good. 00:07:14.160 --> 00:07:17.580 So I put out a donate button on the download page for libprs500. 00:07:18.160 --> 00:07:20.620 I think it used to run on something called Track at the time, 00:07:20.780 --> 00:07:21.940 which was a tippeting system. 00:07:22.460 --> 00:07:24.180 So I'm on the front page of that. 00:07:24.820 --> 00:07:27.480 So then I started getting a lot more money than I expected. 00:07:28.080 --> 00:07:29.640 People were supporting me. 00:07:31.740 --> 00:07:33.640 I was surprised. 00:07:34.340 --> 00:07:39.720 And so then around 2008, which is when I got married, I also decided 00:07:39.720 --> 00:07:44.420 to change the name of libprs500 to Calibre and spruce it up a 00:07:44.420 --> 00:07:48.620 bit and release it, make it available for Windows and Mac OS as well. 00:07:49.840 --> 00:07:53.620 And sort of, you know, well, spend a little more time than I thought I did. 00:07:54.020 --> 00:07:55.160 And so I did that. 00:07:55.200 --> 00:07:58.460 And then I graduated a couple of years after that, I think. 00:07:59.560 --> 00:08:02.140 Maybe a year after that, I don't remember exactly now. 00:08:02.140 --> 00:08:04.780 And so after graduating, I was supposed to go for a postdoc. 00:08:05.020 --> 00:08:10.540 But then my wife and I were both theoretical physics PhDs. 00:08:11.660 --> 00:08:15.240 And so one of the things, one of the things, one of the problems 00:08:15.240 --> 00:08:17.060 with that is that it's very difficult to get a job at the same 00:08:17.060 --> 00:08:18.760 place as a postdoc. 00:08:19.500 --> 00:08:22.480 Very rarely opportunities open up in the same place at the same time. 00:08:22.760 --> 00:08:24.840 So, you know, we wanted to stay together, obviously. 00:08:25.080 --> 00:08:28.480 We'd already been apart for, like, several years as gas students. 00:08:29.980 --> 00:08:31.000 And so we wanted to stay together. 00:08:31.000 --> 00:08:34.640 So I said, let me take a sabbatical from physics after graduating 00:08:34.640 --> 00:08:39.360 from Caltech and spend a year or two working on Calibre full-time 00:08:39.360 --> 00:08:40.120 and see how it goes. 00:08:40.420 --> 00:08:42.620 And, you know, I'll move to wherever she's going. 00:08:43.600 --> 00:08:46.100 Just stay with her and work on Calibre from home. 00:08:46.740 --> 00:08:47.340 So that's what I did. 00:08:47.520 --> 00:08:51.680 It was actually quite a, you know, hard process was I had to apply 00:08:51.680 --> 00:08:55.420 for a visa that allowed me to do work while being a dependent. 00:08:56.820 --> 00:08:58.120 Those were some pretty tough months. 00:08:58.440 --> 00:09:01.300 But anyway, so it all worked out and I got my visa and I spent 00:09:01.300 --> 00:09:03.440 a year or two working on Calibre full-time. 00:09:04.000 --> 00:09:06.920 And that was around the time Amazon came out with this Kindle 00:09:06.920 --> 00:09:08.580 and the e-book market where we took off. 00:09:08.640 --> 00:09:12.700 So if you look at our history of activity in Calibre, you see 00:09:12.700 --> 00:09:17.340 around 2010, 2011 is kind of the peak amount of activity. 00:09:17.640 --> 00:09:21.740 And so those were the years when Calibre was really growing. 00:09:21.900 --> 00:09:24.700 And now it's grown to, you know, has about 3 million users and 00:09:24.700 --> 00:09:26.340 it's using over 200 contributors 00:09:26.980 --> 00:09:29.240 It does everything you would ever want to do with an e-book. 00:09:29.240 --> 00:09:32.240 Read it, convert it, edit it. 00:09:32.380 --> 00:09:34.720 You can basically do whatever you want with it. 00:09:35.520 --> 00:09:38.900 In fact, you can send it to 50 different devices. 00:09:39.760 --> 00:09:42.420 There's a content server that allows you to browse your e-book 00:09:42.420 --> 00:09:44.560 collection over the net and so on. 00:09:44.960 --> 00:09:46.240 It's got an insane number of features. 00:09:47.480 --> 00:09:49.860 So anyway, so that was how Calibre started. 00:09:50.240 --> 00:09:56.800 And then coming to Kitty about 9 or 10 years ago, I think, I was 00:09:56.800 --> 00:09:59.340 dissatisfied with the speed of gvim. 00:09:59.740 --> 00:10:01.940 So I was using gvim as my editor at the time. 00:10:02.120 --> 00:10:03.420 And I was dissatisfied with its speed. 00:10:03.500 --> 00:10:08.340 I don't remember exactly what the issue was, but I was dissatisfied 00:10:08.340 --> 00:10:08.920 with the speed. 00:10:09.540 --> 00:10:12.040 I wanted to make it faster. 00:10:13.760 --> 00:10:17.000 And so then I thought, let me try Terminal again. 00:10:17.260 --> 00:10:20.460 Terminal is supposed to be low overhead, not loaded, blah, blah, blah. 00:10:20.820 --> 00:10:22.200 At the time, I didn't know much about Terminals. 00:10:22.200 --> 00:10:27.420 So when I tried that, it didn't make much of a difference in the speed. 00:10:28.220 --> 00:10:30.520 And so then I started... benchmarking Terminals, and I found that 00:10:30.520 --> 00:10:34.320 there were, at the time, at least the leading Terminals were all pretty slow. 00:10:35.040 --> 00:10:37.220 So I said, you know, I can possibly do better. 00:10:38.100 --> 00:10:39.600 And it'll be a fun side project. 00:10:40.240 --> 00:10:41.100 That's how I started kitty. 00:10:43.000 --> 00:10:46.080 So, you know, Calibre was mostly written in Python. 00:10:46.700 --> 00:10:49.160 It's actually got three or four different languages, but mostly in Python. 00:10:49.480 --> 00:10:52.500 So I started kitty in Python with the idea that I will make the 00:10:52.500 --> 00:10:56.400 front end and, you know, use a scriptable path in Python and backend 00:10:56.400 --> 00:10:59.000 would be in C. And OpenGL. 00:10:59.500 --> 00:11:00.360 And so that's what I did. 00:11:00.620 --> 00:11:02.640 I made it GPU accelerated. 00:11:03.520 --> 00:11:07.460 Actually, to start with, my first attempt was using Qt, which 00:11:07.460 --> 00:11:11.420 is the toolkit that I submitted from Calibre to do the actual 00:11:11.420 --> 00:11:13.340 rendering of the text on the screen. 00:11:13.440 --> 00:11:14.620 But that was just performance. 00:11:14.820 --> 00:11:16.920 I could not get it to a satisfactory level. 00:11:16.940 --> 00:11:19.940 So I decided to learn OpenGL, and at the time, I knew nothing 00:11:19.940 --> 00:11:21.980 about GPU programming at all. 00:11:22.040 --> 00:11:25.580 So I taught myself OpenGL and a little bit enough to, you know, 00:11:25.580 --> 00:11:26.400 just about fit. 00:11:27.180 --> 00:11:28.320 characters on the screen. 00:11:29.080 --> 00:11:30.540 And then that's how kitty was born. 00:11:30.700 --> 00:11:32.380 And I really, at that time, you know, it became popular. 00:11:33.140 --> 00:11:36.560 And, and then, and so then, so one of, so when I, so then I made 00:11:36.560 --> 00:11:41.660 the switch to terminal, terminal vim Sorry, that time it was vim 00:11:41.840 --> 00:11:44.040 Not, I don't know if I said neovim, but at the time I was using 00:11:44.040 --> 00:11:48.100 vim So I made the switch to terminal vim and there was one big problem. 00:11:48.640 --> 00:11:49.680 There were no colored underlines. 00:11:50.900 --> 00:11:54.880 At the time there was, yeah, there were no colored underlines. 00:11:54.960 --> 00:11:56.100 There were no undercurls, nothing. 00:11:56.100 --> 00:11:59.280 And I'd gotten used to that in gvim or whatever. 00:12:00.660 --> 00:12:03.700 And so I said, okay, let me, let me, let me come up with a protocol 00:12:03.700 --> 00:12:05.560 for this and, you know, make it happen in kitty. 00:12:05.780 --> 00:12:09.020 And it's a little bit of a blockade and it'll become, it'll become, 00:12:09.320 --> 00:12:09.820 I don't know. 00:12:10.120 --> 00:12:13.520 So I'll give them here someday, implement it and I'll have, I'll 00:12:13.520 --> 00:12:14.880 have colored underlines in my editor. 00:12:15.340 --> 00:12:16.320 So that's what I did. 00:12:16.320 --> 00:12:21.660 I made a protocol for colored and styled underlines in kitty and 00:12:21.660 --> 00:12:24.260 I released it and eventually it became popular. 00:12:24.260 --> 00:12:27.164 And today you have colored underline in your terminal thanks to 00:12:27.164 --> 00:12:30.060 me, which is the one thing I did what to credit for. 00:12:31.540 --> 00:12:35.120 So that was, so, so, so that was my start at, at sort of trying 00:12:35.120 --> 00:12:38.640 to extend the terminal capabilities because, you know, as I use 00:12:38.640 --> 00:12:40.900 the terminal more and more, I sort of found limitations. 00:12:41.640 --> 00:12:47.380 So one of the things that I used to do was run some numerics and, 00:12:47.400 --> 00:12:51.500 you know, I'd like to, I'd like to visualize the results. 00:12:51.980 --> 00:12:55.160 And I should run it, I should SSH into a server and run them. 00:12:55.900 --> 00:12:57.760 And it was painful to visualize the results. 00:12:58.100 --> 00:13:01.120 You know, you had to populate a file, a CP to file to your local 00:13:01.120 --> 00:13:03.900 computer and open it with the same module as SSHFS or whatever, 00:13:04.020 --> 00:13:05.920 some sort of, you know, hacky way. 00:13:05.960 --> 00:13:09.500 So I said, okay, let me, let me, let me make a graphics protocol 00:13:09.500 --> 00:13:10.000 for the terminal. 00:13:10.080 --> 00:13:14.180 So I can just, you know, cat a simple PNG image and just view it conveniently. 00:13:14.440 --> 00:13:15.660 So that was the start. 00:13:15.660 --> 00:13:19.540 But then once I, so once I started investigating the, you know, 00:13:19.540 --> 00:13:22.320 existing landscape was around and I found something called sixel, 00:13:22.580 --> 00:13:30.680 which is an ancient protocol for, for images that's existed from 00:13:30.680 --> 00:13:32.240 the seventies or eighties or whatever. 00:13:32.740 --> 00:13:34.200 So, but then I had various limitations. 00:13:34.460 --> 00:13:36.300 It didn't support 24 bit color. 00:13:37.040 --> 00:13:41.080 It's, you know, the pictures were fuzzy and the library that, 00:13:41.080 --> 00:13:44.780 that, that existed for working with sixel was not in good shape. 00:13:45.260 --> 00:13:48.380 So I said, okay, let me, you know, let me come up with my own 00:13:48.380 --> 00:13:51.320 protocol that works a lot, that gets past these limitations. 00:13:51.880 --> 00:13:54.400 And that's how the Kitty graphics protocol was born. 00:13:54.580 --> 00:13:56.860 And, you know, I, and then in designing that, I got a lot of feedback 00:13:56.860 --> 00:13:58.800 from people and we had a lot of discussions and stuff. 00:14:00.580 --> 00:14:04.080 And, you know, so some, some certain goals came out of that. 00:14:04.080 --> 00:14:07.420 So one of the, one of them was that in the local case, when we 00:14:07.420 --> 00:14:10.260 were not accessing to a different computer and viewing an image, 00:14:10.800 --> 00:14:12.880 you don't want to send it over the terminal because you have to 00:14:12.880 --> 00:14:14.980 import it as text, base 64 encoded or whatever. 00:14:15.220 --> 00:14:16.520 And that's, that kills performance. 00:14:16.760 --> 00:14:20.600 So I added the ability to, you know, view local files and in shared memory. 00:14:22.080 --> 00:14:25.700 So, you know, and then later on people asked for the ability to 00:14:25.700 --> 00:14:26.720 have animated images. 00:14:27.000 --> 00:14:27.520 It's like fine. 00:14:27.520 --> 00:14:30.280 I've done all this, like an animation, animated images. 00:14:30.820 --> 00:14:33.620 And then people were like, well, this doesn't work in tmux and 00:14:33.620 --> 00:14:36.240 it doesn't work in WeChat and it doesn't work in Vim. 00:14:36.340 --> 00:14:37.440 And I'm like, what the hell? 00:14:37.660 --> 00:14:42.220 So then somebody, somebody came up with the idea of using a so-called, 00:14:42.220 --> 00:14:43.400 you know, Unicode placeholder. 00:14:44.300 --> 00:14:48.700 So, which is basically you, you know, when you want, when you 00:14:48.700 --> 00:14:52.240 want to display an image in the terminal, you send a special Unicode character. 00:14:52.640 --> 00:14:58.600 So it's like hex code zero, but it isn't this one special Unicode 00:14:58.600 --> 00:15:01.640 character, private use area, which is not assigned for any other purpose. 00:15:02.780 --> 00:15:05.000 And so that acts as a placeholder. 00:15:05.400 --> 00:15:09.220 So an application that's not aware of the graphics protocol, just 00:15:09.220 --> 00:15:10.880 treats that placeholder as normal text. 00:15:11.140 --> 00:15:15.000 And then you use combining marks, a lot of diacritics and so on 00:15:15.000 --> 00:15:19.760 to add things like the image ID and, you know, the size and the 00:15:19.760 --> 00:15:20.520 placement and so on. 00:15:20.520 --> 00:15:22.420 That kind of information is encoded into the text. 00:15:22.900 --> 00:15:25.960 But because it looks at just plain normal text to the application, 00:15:26.420 --> 00:15:29.460 like Vim or tmux or whatever, the application just, you know, 00:15:29.480 --> 00:15:31.200 keeps it together and moves it around itself. 00:15:31.580 --> 00:15:33.560 And even though it doesn't know that it's actually working with an image. 00:15:34.240 --> 00:15:36.740 So with this kind of hack, you know, you could get the graphics 00:15:36.740 --> 00:15:42.040 protocol to work with things like tmux or Vim or whatever that 00:15:42.040 --> 00:15:44.440 didn't support the actual protocol. 00:15:45.100 --> 00:15:49.220 So that was the next big thing I did in kitty. 00:15:50.060 --> 00:15:55.600 And then after that, I used to get a lot of bug reports about, 00:15:55.880 --> 00:15:59.080 you know, this key combination is not working and that key combination 00:15:59.080 --> 00:15:59.740 is not working. 00:16:00.100 --> 00:16:05.400 And why can't I use control-shift-d in my application to, you know, whatever. 00:16:06.140 --> 00:16:10.540 So then I started looking into the state of keyboard handling 00:16:10.540 --> 00:16:12.300 in terminal and it was an absolute disaster. 00:16:14.180 --> 00:16:18.120 So, you know, I mean, words fail me. 00:16:19.040 --> 00:16:24.240 You know, like pressing alphabetic keys would just send the keys 00:16:24.240 --> 00:16:27.640 as those characters, you press A, it transmits the character A. 00:16:28.120 --> 00:16:31.280 So there's no way to tell, for example, if, you know, it's a key 00:16:31.280 --> 00:16:33.840 down event or a key up event or the A stands for a paste. 00:16:34.520 --> 00:16:36.760 So there's something called bracketed paste in, you know, terminal 00:16:36.760 --> 00:16:40.320 land, which was invented to solve this problem. 00:16:40.320 --> 00:16:42.740 There's a whole bunch of problems with this. 00:16:43.340 --> 00:16:46.660 The encoding for modifiers was so primitive that you could only 00:16:46.660 --> 00:16:49.600 really support control and alt that were not even together. 00:16:50.320 --> 00:16:54.440 And a lot of keys encoded to the same bytes. 00:16:55.000 --> 00:16:57.280 So like, for example, the classic example is a tab key and the 00:16:57.280 --> 00:16:59.100 control I key import to the same bytes. 00:16:59.360 --> 00:17:01.900 So you can't distinguish them in terminal programs, but they should 00:17:01.900 --> 00:17:04.140 put them before the kitty keyboard protocol. 00:17:04.140 --> 00:17:06.740 So I ended up making the kitty keyboard protocol. 00:17:07.080 --> 00:17:10.620 And I remember having long discussions with Bram, this was before 00:17:10.620 --> 00:17:13.480 he passed away, about getting it into Vim. 00:17:14.520 --> 00:17:18.020 And he ha d a lot of solid opinions about it. 00:17:18.520 --> 00:17:22.200 But finally, eventually, he agreed and made it into Vim and made 00:17:22.200 --> 00:17:23.620 it into neovim and various other terminals. 00:17:24.160 --> 00:17:26.820 And today it's fairly widely used, there are several terminals 00:17:26.820 --> 00:17:28.380 that use it and so on. 00:17:28.380 --> 00:17:35.080 So that was the next big thing I did in kitty. 00:17:35.180 --> 00:17:40.900 And then after that, my next windmill that I'm looking at is variable 00:17:40.900 --> 00:17:42.080 size text in the terminal. 00:17:43.000 --> 00:17:47.120 So when I'm catting a markdown file, I want to see the headings big and... 00:17:47.140 --> 00:17:50.780 Like in Emacs, right? Yes, yes. 00:17:50.940 --> 00:17:53.260 So why should only Emacs user benefit. 00:17:54.300 --> 00:17:56.200 I want all terminal users to be able to... 00:17:56.200 --> 00:17:58.580 Hear bigger headings, yeah. Yeah, yeah. 00:17:59.180 --> 00:18:06.340 So there's actually a program called PresentTerm, which can make 00:18:06.340 --> 00:18:07.220 presentations in the terminal. 00:18:07.720 --> 00:18:12.960 So that actually uses the kitty facility for showing multiple size 00:18:12.960 --> 00:18:16.240 text for headings and for superscripts and subscripts and so on. 00:18:16.480 --> 00:18:18.660 But anyway, that's getting ahead of the story. 00:18:18.960 --> 00:18:21.420 So I decided to look into that. 00:18:21.480 --> 00:18:23.620 So there's an existing standard, as always. 00:18:23.620 --> 00:18:27.900 I don't remember the name anymore. 00:18:28.100 --> 00:18:33.160 But basically what it would do is you can designate a line in 00:18:33.160 --> 00:18:38.400 the terminal buffer as twice, as two times the height, two times 00:18:38.400 --> 00:18:38.940 the font size. 00:18:39.380 --> 00:18:42.280 But the problem with this is that it does it for the whole line. 00:18:42.420 --> 00:18:44.940 It doesn't do it for just one character or two characters. 00:18:45.820 --> 00:18:47.880 So the problem with that is it doesn't work, for example, with 00:18:47.880 --> 00:18:49.140 a multiplexer like tmux. 00:18:49.140 --> 00:18:54.340 Because the whole line becomes double-sized when Tmux is splitting 00:18:54.340 --> 00:18:56.580 the screen into different screens. 00:18:57.280 --> 00:19:02.000 So we want to stop that double-sized thing at this point where 00:19:02.000 --> 00:19:03.380 multiplex is splitting the screen. 00:19:03.860 --> 00:19:05.040 So this was a non-starter. 00:19:05.400 --> 00:19:08.820 I mean, a lot of people use multiplexes, so it's not going to 00:19:08.820 --> 00:19:10.200 be suitable for this use case. 00:19:10.300 --> 00:19:12.360 And plus, then I also wanted superscripts and subscripts. 00:19:12.580 --> 00:19:14.440 Being an ambitious guy, I said, why stop at headings? 00:19:14.940 --> 00:19:16.740 Let's do superscripts and subscripts as well. 00:19:17.580 --> 00:19:22.500 So I said, okay, I've already made all these protocols, and people 00:19:22.500 --> 00:19:23.560 keep yelling at me for it. 00:19:23.560 --> 00:19:25.880 So let me add one more into it. 00:19:27.160 --> 00:19:30.100 So I made what's called the text-sizing protocol. 00:19:32.260 --> 00:19:36.660 So that protocol has the ability to make individual characters 00:19:36.660 --> 00:19:37.800 either bigger or smaller. 00:19:38.480 --> 00:19:42.700 So because of the nature of the terminal, it's a character, but 00:19:42.700 --> 00:19:44.480 it's made of equal-sized cells. 00:19:44.480 --> 00:19:46.960 So it's not completely free font size. 00:19:47.120 --> 00:19:50.560 It has to be either double or triple or quadruple or some fraction 00:19:50.560 --> 00:19:51.060 of a cell. 00:19:52.480 --> 00:19:55.980 It's not fully free size, but it's a lot better than what we had before. 00:19:58.080 --> 00:20:02.020 And then in the course of doing this work, because no good deed 00:20:02.020 --> 00:20:07.420 goes unpunished, I also decided to look into the... 00:20:08.420 --> 00:20:11.220 So a terminal UI is basically text. 00:20:11.220 --> 00:20:15.640 A program like Wave Modeling Editor draws its UI using text. 00:20:16.060 --> 00:20:19.880 There are some really cool symbols, some normal text, and so on. 00:20:20.300 --> 00:20:24.680 So now the problem is that the program running in the terminal 00:20:24.680 --> 00:20:28.020 and the terminal itself have to agree on the width of that text. 00:20:28.180 --> 00:20:31.260 By that, I mean how many cells a particular piece of text takes. 00:20:32.080 --> 00:20:36.140 So it's obvious for, let's say, ASCII text, English text, an A 00:20:36.140 --> 00:20:36.980 takes one cell. 00:20:38.380 --> 00:20:39.580 Emoji takes two cells. 00:20:39.580 --> 00:20:40.860 These things are well-established. 00:20:41.440 --> 00:20:43.080 Everybody agrees on them. So on. 00:20:43.120 --> 00:20:47.540 But the problem is that there's a lot more to text than just ASCII and emojis. 00:20:48.960 --> 00:20:52.260 There's thousands of languages, scripts, and there's all of Unicode. 00:20:53.800 --> 00:20:57.460 And so when you get into that, there are all sorts of complications. 00:20:58.880 --> 00:21:04.440 So for example, there's a pair of special characters called the 00:21:04.440 --> 00:21:05.720 variation selectors in the Unicode standard. 00:21:06.680 --> 00:21:12.580 So if you follow certain characters with a VS-16 variation selector, 00:21:12.740 --> 00:21:13.420 they become wide. 00:21:14.600 --> 00:21:17.600 If you follow a wide character with a VS-15 variation selector, 00:21:17.740 --> 00:21:18.240 they become narrow. 00:21:19.100 --> 00:21:24.880 Now if you think about it, if you think of the case of a wide 00:21:24.880 --> 00:21:27.480 character becoming narrow, now a terminal is a serial device, 00:21:27.960 --> 00:21:29.660 it gets bytes at a time, a character at a time. 00:21:30.060 --> 00:21:36.000 So imagine the terminal emulator gets a wide character, and the 00:21:36.000 --> 00:21:40.960 cursor has only one cell left at the current position. 00:21:41.020 --> 00:21:43.200 So it will go to the next line and put the wide character there. 00:21:43.660 --> 00:21:46.220 But then sometime later, you don't know how long, it could be 00:21:46.220 --> 00:21:49.580 any amount of time, because of network delays or whatever, you get 00:21:49.580 --> 00:21:51.780 the variation selector, which makes the wide character narrow. 00:21:52.220 --> 00:21:53.380 But now it's on the next line. 00:21:53.380 --> 00:21:56.420 You can't move it back up because the whole scroll back would 00:21:56.420 --> 00:21:58.480 have scrolled, you don't know what's happened and it's not possible 00:21:58.480 --> 00:21:59.340 to move it back up. 00:21:59.760 --> 00:22:03.340 So now what that means is that it's impossible to measure the 00:22:03.340 --> 00:22:09.500 width of a string of text in the presence of these variation selectors 00:22:09.500 --> 00:22:11.380 because you need to know the screen width. 00:22:12.600 --> 00:22:18.240 So if your wide character and the variation selector make it narrow 00:22:18.240 --> 00:22:20.440 right at the end of the screen, then they fall off the screen 00:22:20.440 --> 00:22:21.640 with the next line. 00:22:21.640 --> 00:22:24.340 So you can't calculate the width anymore without knowing the width 00:22:24.340 --> 00:22:25.520 of the string you're entering the text to. 00:22:26.040 --> 00:22:27.640 And this is a big problem for... 00:22:30.180 --> 00:22:33.020 If you're writing a terminal program, it becomes really difficult 00:22:33.020 --> 00:22:35.600 to work around this and deal with other issues. 00:22:35.800 --> 00:22:39.940 I mean, there is a whole small dashboard of issues. 00:22:40.080 --> 00:22:40.780 I'm not going to go into them. 00:22:40.820 --> 00:22:42.780 This was just an easy-to-illustrate one. 00:22:43.060 --> 00:22:46.400 So anyway, to fix this, I have made yet another standard. 00:22:46.760 --> 00:22:50.160 I've codified all the rules by which the width should be calculated. 00:22:50.160 --> 00:22:51.420 I've specified the algorithm. 00:22:53.200 --> 00:22:54.040 I've done all that. 00:22:54.700 --> 00:22:57.200 And as part of the text sizing protocol, there's a subsection 00:22:57.200 --> 00:22:57.980 of it called the width. 00:22:58.860 --> 00:23:01.900 So now terminal programs can send pieces of text to a terminal 00:23:01.900 --> 00:23:03.820 and specify what width they want to render in. 00:23:04.440 --> 00:23:08.680 So it doesn't matter now if the terminal and the program don't 00:23:08.680 --> 00:23:09.580 have to agree on the width. 00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:11.740 If one is different from the other, it doesn't matter. 00:23:12.340 --> 00:23:14.600 The program is in control and the terminal will just do what the 00:23:14.600 --> 00:23:15.340 program tells it to do. 00:23:15.780 --> 00:23:17.140 So this comprehensively solves this issue. 00:23:17.140 --> 00:23:18.080 But I mean, this is very new. 00:23:18.180 --> 00:23:19.360 I think this is just a few months old. 00:23:19.420 --> 00:23:21.340 So we'll see what sort of an option it gets in the future. 00:23:22.300 --> 00:23:28.540 But yeah, that's the latest thing I've been taking advantage of in kitty. Mm-hmm. 00:23:28.860 --> 00:23:32.700 Now, you talked about the kitty graphics protocol. 00:23:33.160 --> 00:23:34.980 Is that a standard now? 00:23:35.020 --> 00:23:37.980 Is that something that all of the terminals use? 00:23:38.280 --> 00:23:40.280 Not all by any chance, by any means. 00:23:41.220 --> 00:23:43.520 So the modern ones tend to support it. 00:23:44.220 --> 00:23:45.600 The older ones don't. 00:23:45.600 --> 00:23:49.900 So, for example, I think the first terminal other than kitty that 00:23:49.900 --> 00:23:50.960 supported it was wezterm. 00:23:52.500 --> 00:23:57.160 And now the new kid on the block, ghostty, also supports it. 00:23:58.120 --> 00:23:59.920 konsole supports it partly. 00:24:02.000 --> 00:24:03.720 But then there are big holdouts. 00:24:04.060 --> 00:24:08.180 For example, VTE library, which is used by the main terminal and 00:24:08.180 --> 00:24:09.100 all similar terminals. 00:24:09.720 --> 00:24:11.160 They don't support any image protocol. 00:24:11.300 --> 00:24:13.360 I think there's some discussion about them supporting sixel. 00:24:13.360 --> 00:24:15.440 But at the moment, they don't support anything. 00:24:15.640 --> 00:24:17.280 So those are just standard images. 00:24:18.360 --> 00:24:20.380 Then similarly, the multiplexers. 00:24:21.400 --> 00:24:23.540 I think tmux supports sixel 00:24:23.980 --> 00:24:26.860 There's a compile-time option, but not on by default. 00:24:28.060 --> 00:24:28.960 So it's a mess. 00:24:29.080 --> 00:24:31.460 I mean, if you're somebody whos writing terminal programming and 00:24:31.460 --> 00:24:36.660 wants to work in a lot of terminals, you really have to work hard 00:24:36.660 --> 00:24:39.160 and make some sort of abstraction layer over the latest protocols. 00:24:39.820 --> 00:24:42.160 I mean, the kitty graphics protocol is by far the best. 00:24:42.160 --> 00:24:43.920 I'm saying that, obviously, I'm biased. 00:24:44.520 --> 00:24:46.800 But it's clear to anyone who reads the protocols that it's by 00:24:46.800 --> 00:24:48.600 far the best design and most capable. 00:24:50.400 --> 00:24:54.620 So anyway, I'm hoping that it's an option we'll go over time. 00:24:55.480 --> 00:24:57.320 All I can do is wait it to go down. 00:24:57.720 --> 00:25:01.320 Yeah, I have played a little bit with images in terminals. 00:25:01.720 --> 00:25:06.120 And always the kitty graphics protocol seems the best option. 00:25:06.220 --> 00:25:09.900 And I use tmux and I view images inside NeoVim. 00:25:09.900 --> 00:25:14.140 So kitty graphics protocol is the only one that has allowed me to 00:25:14.140 --> 00:25:18.160 do that in wezterm, ghostty, kitty, of course, as well. 00:25:18.260 --> 00:25:21.760 So if other terminals want to adopt it, they can. 00:25:22.180 --> 00:25:25.260 Like Rio, for example, is a new terminal out there. 00:25:25.420 --> 00:25:30.700 So it can adopt the kitty graphics protocol and use it, right? Yes, absolutely. 00:25:30.820 --> 00:25:32.760 I encourage everyone to adopt it. 00:25:33.000 --> 00:25:34.020 There's an open spec. 00:25:34.780 --> 00:25:39.540 A lot of people have asked me questions about the protocol. 00:25:39.720 --> 00:25:41.460 And I try to answer them as quickly as possible. 00:25:42.220 --> 00:25:47.940 And I'm happy to consider amendments to the protocol to make it 00:25:47.940 --> 00:25:50.200 more functional or easier to implement. 00:25:50.500 --> 00:25:53.840 Or if you go to the graphics protocol page on the kitty website, 00:25:54.020 --> 00:25:57.480 you'll see a lot of version added things. 00:25:57.480 --> 00:26:01.280 All changes to the protocol I've made over time in response to 00:26:01.280 --> 00:26:05.960 requests from users and so on. 00:26:07.720 --> 00:26:11.100 In fact, now you can even watch videos in your terminals. 00:26:11.440 --> 00:26:12.920 MPV has a kitty backend. 00:26:14.120 --> 00:26:15.700 And it actually works quite well. 00:26:16.040 --> 00:26:22.760 I sometimes find myself watching videos in kitty. Interesting. 00:26:24.220 --> 00:26:28.020 So video was not a use case I envisioned when I made the protocol. 00:26:28.760 --> 00:26:32.940 But because of the shared memory method of transmitting images, 00:26:33.220 --> 00:26:36.060 the performance is actually acceptable for reasonably sized videos. 00:26:36.640 --> 00:26:41.120 And you're going to watch them inside your terminal. Okay, awesome. 00:26:41.640 --> 00:26:46.200 Talking about out-of-the-box use cases, there's actually a full 00:26:46.200 --> 00:26:48.420 Chromium instance that runs inside kitty using bus protocol. 00:26:48.420 --> 00:26:50.980 The project is called AWRIT. 00:26:52.500 --> 00:26:55.800 I guess it's a sort of play-on-all-right or something like that. 00:26:56.540 --> 00:27:00.040 But it runs a full Chromium instance and renders it inside kitty 00:27:00.040 --> 00:27:01.240 using the graphics protocol. 00:27:01.700 --> 00:27:05.300 And it uses the kitty keyboard protocol for commanding the keyboard 00:27:05.300 --> 00:27:06.140 and so on. 00:27:06.160 --> 00:27:07.900 So you can actually have a full browser in your terminal. 00:27:09.760 --> 00:27:11.740 Oh, I didn't know that. Interesting. 00:27:11.960 --> 00:27:14.460 So full browser in kitty, right? 00:27:14.740 --> 00:27:15.580 In kitty, yes. 00:27:15.580 --> 00:27:19.240 I think it also might work in ghostty. 00:27:19.720 --> 00:27:23.280 But ghostty's graphics protocol performance is not on par with kitty. 00:27:23.480 --> 00:27:25.680 So I think it would be a bit slow there. 00:27:26.440 --> 00:27:27.380 They're aware of it. 00:27:30.320 --> 00:27:32.720 But that's sort of the out-of-the-box uses. 00:27:32.920 --> 00:27:36.360 There's actually a page on the kitty website called integrations 00:27:36.360 --> 00:27:36.980 with other tools. 00:27:38.080 --> 00:27:41.000 Can I share your screen? Yeah, sure. 00:27:41.280 --> 00:27:42.800 I'll show you the page. 00:27:42.800 --> 00:27:44.620 I'll share it here. 00:27:45.460 --> 00:27:48.220 So you can see it starts out with image and document viewer. 00:27:48.320 --> 00:27:51.840 So there's a whole bunch of document viewers, PDFs. 00:27:51.920 --> 00:27:54.900 I told you about Markdown. 00:27:55.400 --> 00:27:57.040 And then there are these file managers. 00:27:57.420 --> 00:28:00.560 I think Ranger was the first terminal file manager we produced. 00:28:00.760 --> 00:28:02.580 Powered by kitty's graphics protocol. 00:28:03.040 --> 00:28:04.140 There's a whole bunch of others. 00:28:04.320 --> 00:28:07.140 But presentterm was the project I was telling you about. 00:28:07.200 --> 00:28:10.040 It shows Markdown-based slides with images. 00:28:10.040 --> 00:28:13.200 And actually now variable text size as well. 00:28:14.200 --> 00:28:15.020 So there's a whole bunch of these, awrit 00:28:15.660 --> 00:28:19.140 This is the full Chromium-based web browser running in the terminal. 00:28:20.920 --> 00:28:23.960 Even the old w3m, which is a venerable project. 00:28:24.260 --> 00:28:28.740 It's a text-mode browser, but it can show images using the kitty graphics protocol. 00:28:29.620 --> 00:28:31.820 MPV is the video player that can play videos in the terminal. 00:28:32.720 --> 00:28:36.920 Of course, there are all these various system data visualization tools. 00:28:40.300 --> 00:28:45.480 There are various editors that use kitty's remote control feature, 00:28:45.600 --> 00:28:51.740 which is the ability to control kitty over a socket using any program. 00:28:52.280 --> 00:28:54.460 There's a whole protocol for that. 00:28:54.920 --> 00:28:57.420 So many of these editors integrate with that remote control protocol. 00:28:57.700 --> 00:29:02.860 So we can navigate between terminal pins, and the pins in the windows 00:29:02.860 --> 00:29:05.240 and the editor itself seamlessly. 00:29:05.240 --> 00:29:10.060 For example, I think you mentioned using the images in nvim. 00:29:10.860 --> 00:29:14.520 So there are various image-filled plugins for nvim. 00:29:16.320 --> 00:29:19.760 So this is something that I'm working on currently, in the last 00:29:19.760 --> 00:29:20.880 month or so. 00:29:21.480 --> 00:29:25.100 A little while back, I released something called the Panel Kitten. 00:29:25.220 --> 00:29:25.940 Well, not a little while back. 00:29:26.020 --> 00:29:27.040 This was quite a while back. 00:29:27.500 --> 00:29:29.100 Initially, it used to work only on X11. 00:29:29.320 --> 00:29:32.100 What it does is it allows you to draw panels on your desktop. 00:29:32.100 --> 00:29:38.880 If you see on my screen, the top bar, this is actually a kitty instance 00:29:38.880 --> 00:29:43.440 running a terminal program that shows the system information. 00:29:45.480 --> 00:29:47.100 So the Panel Kitten... 00:29:48.240 --> 00:29:50.500 So kitty is like your Emacs. 00:29:50.820 --> 00:29:53.680 You run everything inside kitty? Yes. 00:29:54.480 --> 00:30:00.160 I like to live in the terminal as much as possible. Yeah. 00:30:01.300 --> 00:30:02.700 So let's see. 00:30:02.940 --> 00:30:06.780 So this is something I just released called the Quick Access Kitten. 00:30:07.320 --> 00:30:10.520 So this uses the Panel Kitten, and it gives you a terminal you 00:30:10.520 --> 00:30:12.900 can access at a single press, and it works in macOS, in 00:30:12.900 --> 00:30:13.620 Wayland, and in X11 00:30:14.440 --> 00:30:17.200 It was a huge headache getting it working in all three, but eventually it managed. 00:30:18.020 --> 00:30:22.000 So you can see here in the screenshot, the desktop background 00:30:22.000 --> 00:30:25.340 is a program called btop, and that's running inside kitty. 00:30:25.540 --> 00:30:28.020 And then on top of that, there is a Quick Access Kitty, which 00:30:28.020 --> 00:30:33.060 is this normal terminal, but it's overlayed on top of the desktop. 00:30:33.160 --> 00:30:35.180 If there were any windows open, then it would have been overlayed 00:30:35.180 --> 00:30:35.840 on top of the windows. 00:30:37.820 --> 00:30:43.620 So this works in MacOS, and here's a screenshot of it in hyprland and Linux. 00:30:46.660 --> 00:30:51.240 So this is something that I've been using, working on currently, 00:30:51.540 --> 00:30:56.700 and the part of it that I'm working on currently is using Kitty 00:30:56.700 --> 00:31:00.620 to replace the File Open Dialogs in Linux. 00:31:01.300 --> 00:31:09.980 So when you use a GUI program like, say, Firefox, and you say 00:31:09.980 --> 00:31:14.780 File, Save Page As, you get a File Open Dialog, usually. 00:31:15.260 --> 00:31:19.420 Here you see there's actually a Kitty instance that's running 00:31:19.420 --> 00:31:21.140 a file choosing kitten. 00:31:21.140 --> 00:31:26.980 So you can use a fuzzy finder like Selector, so you can just type a file. 00:31:27.000 --> 00:31:29.580 You can just type a few letters and it matches files accordingly, 00:31:29.920 --> 00:31:32.700 and you can use that to actually select files. 00:31:33.520 --> 00:31:40.180 So because I use Calibre a fair bit, I find myself using the File 00:31:40.180 --> 00:31:43.100 Open Dialog a fair bit, and that annoys me. 00:31:45.000 --> 00:31:45.500 Yeah, me too. 00:31:45.600 --> 00:31:50.760 It puts you in a completely different directory and I have to 00:31:50.760 --> 00:31:53.180 see, okay, where am I at and go and search? 00:31:53.320 --> 00:31:55.040 I don't like it. Yeah, exactly. 00:31:55.040 --> 00:32:00.280 So I decided to do something about that and make one that works 00:32:00.280 --> 00:32:03.440 the way I want it to work and uses, you know, let's keyboard-centric 00:32:03.440 --> 00:32:07.140 and fast and developer-friendly, blah, blah, So that's what I'm 00:32:07.140 --> 00:32:09.380 currently working on in Kitty. 00:32:09.540 --> 00:32:12.660 So the preview I showed you just now, it's not very good 00:32:12.660 --> 00:32:14.520 and could be worked on. 00:32:15.120 --> 00:32:18.740 But yeah, that's what I'm working on these days. Okay. 00:32:19.700 --> 00:32:23.940 Now, for people that don't know about Calibre, would you mind 00:32:23.940 --> 00:32:27.400 sharing a little bit about Calibre with us? 00:32:27.700 --> 00:32:33.340 Just letting us know what Calibre is for people that just know Kitty, right? 00:32:33.480 --> 00:32:34.960 Just a quick overview. 00:32:35.320 --> 00:32:40.780 So Calibre is an e-book management program. 00:32:41.240 --> 00:32:42.900 So e-books are basically electronic books. 00:32:43.940 --> 00:32:47.360 So what Calibre does is it allows you to manage a collection of e-books. 00:32:47.360 --> 00:32:50.700 So Calibre is mainly meant for somebody who's really into books, 00:32:50.940 --> 00:32:52.220 who wants to manage their own collection. 00:32:52.560 --> 00:32:56.100 If all you do is read one book a year, there's no need for Calibre. 00:32:56.140 --> 00:32:58.440 But if you're a serious reader, you read a lot of books, you have 00:32:58.440 --> 00:33:04.480 a collection, you'd like to search it, etc., then Calibre is for you. 00:33:05.240 --> 00:33:09.480 So its main interface is just a collection of books. 00:33:09.960 --> 00:33:16.880 You can change it to show covers, if you prefer that, and so on. 00:33:17.560 --> 00:33:21.560 Like Kitty, it's very much a swiss army knife, that's my philosophy in software. 00:33:22.260 --> 00:33:23.320 So it has a ton of features. 00:33:23.580 --> 00:33:27.000 You can edit the metadata of books, you can change the title, 00:33:27.280 --> 00:33:29.940 you can change the author, series, rating, whatever. 00:33:30.240 --> 00:33:31.280 You can download metadata. 00:33:32.240 --> 00:33:36.440 So there's a plug-in system which allows you, Calibre, to go and 00:33:36.440 --> 00:33:41.720 download metadata from different websites, amazon and a whole bunch of other programs. 00:33:45.300 --> 00:33:46.880 So that's the edit metadata. 00:33:47.060 --> 00:33:49.780 You can convert the books to different formats. 00:33:50.260 --> 00:33:52.220 So sadly, there's no standardization in the ebook space. 00:33:53.440 --> 00:33:57.040 EPUB is supposedly the standard format, but Amazon has its own 00:33:57.040 --> 00:34:02.080 proprietary format, and then Kobo, which is another ebook-reading 00:34:02.080 --> 00:34:03.820 device, has its own format called KEPUB. 00:34:04.280 --> 00:34:07.800 So as you can see, Calibre allows you to convert to all these 00:34:07.800 --> 00:34:11.720 various formats, including a bunch of legacy formats, like LIT, 00:34:12.020 --> 00:34:15.000 which is an ancient ebook format that Microsoft introduced. 00:34:15.800 --> 00:34:20.080 LRF was the ebook format, Sony's proprietary ebook format, and so on. 00:34:20.500 --> 00:34:26.580 You can even convert to Word documents, if you like, to and from, actually. 00:34:28.060 --> 00:34:30.740 So there's that, there's Convert, and there's View, there's Calibre's 00:34:30.740 --> 00:34:33.220 built-in Viewer, so you can view books. 00:34:33.380 --> 00:34:38.280 This is in dark mode, so it's white on black, but normally it's 00:34:38.280 --> 00:34:39.000 black on white. 00:34:39.000 --> 00:34:43.520 So you can view books, and the Viewer is actually capable of text-to-speech, 00:34:44.120 --> 00:34:49.760 and it has a pretty sophisticated search function, so you can 00:34:49.760 --> 00:34:53.700 search by text, you can search for whole words, nearby words, 00:34:53.780 --> 00:34:54.780 content, blah, blah, blah. 00:34:54.840 --> 00:34:58.920 So it's a good, it supports highlighting, you can highlight things. 00:35:01.180 --> 00:35:03.140 Add notes, and all that stuff. 00:35:03.640 --> 00:35:06.400 Add notes, highlight stuff, all that stuff, it's got everything 00:35:06.400 --> 00:35:07.960 that you would possibly want to do. 00:35:07.960 --> 00:35:11.740 And as with all my software, it's extremely customizable, it's 00:35:11.740 --> 00:35:15.320 got a huge set of preferences 00:35:16.140 --> 00:35:21.980 So it even has like a built-in Kindle app, we could say, right? 00:35:21.980 --> 00:35:24.760 So you can read, annotate, do everything with your books there. 00:35:25.440 --> 00:35:30.920 Yes, and not only, so I've shown you this, I've shown you this 00:35:30.920 --> 00:35:35.780 running, you know, a software on your desktop, but Calibre also 00:35:35.780 --> 00:35:40.900 has something called a Content Server, so you can start the Content Server, 00:35:45.640 --> 00:35:51.560 so start Content Server, and then if you go to the, I actually 00:35:51.560 --> 00:35:59.440 don't know how this is currently set up, but you can access your 00:35:59.440 --> 00:36:02.920 libraries in a browser. 00:36:02.920 --> 00:36:06.040 So this is a browser, this is actually Vise, which is my own personal 00:36:06.040 --> 00:36:09.160 browser, but you can access it in any standard browser. 00:36:09.640 --> 00:36:11.660 So you can access a collection on a browser, you can read the 00:36:11.660 --> 00:36:14.040 books, the same book that I was reading in the Calibre viewer, 00:36:14.140 --> 00:36:16.940 you can read it in your browser. 00:36:19.000 --> 00:36:21.580 So you can change pages, blah, blah, blah, whatever. 00:36:21.760 --> 00:36:25.420 And this works on mobile phones devices as well. 00:36:25.420 --> 00:36:29.960 So if you expose it correctly, you could access it from any device 00:36:29.960 --> 00:36:31.140 in your local network? 00:36:31.140 --> 00:36:33.900 Any device in your local network, or even over the internet, if 00:36:33.900 --> 00:36:37.950 you want to, it supports authentication and so on. 00:36:38.760 --> 00:36:41.220 So you can expose it over the internet, and when you're traveling, 00:36:41.400 --> 00:36:42.340 you can read books. 00:36:42.960 --> 00:36:45.100 That's up to you what you want to do with it. 00:36:46.120 --> 00:36:48.680 Quick question, quick question before you move on. 00:36:49.080 --> 00:36:52.740 Is there a Docker container version of Calibre 00:36:52.740 --> 00:36:54.580 that I can host on a server? 00:36:54.900 --> 00:36:56.620 There probably is. 00:36:56.620 --> 00:37:02.060 There is actually, but I personally, so Calibre comes as its own 00:37:02.060 --> 00:37:07.060 self-contained binary, but not a single binary, but a tar file 00:37:07.060 --> 00:37:09.160 which you untar into one directory. 00:37:09.540 --> 00:37:13.280 All you need to do is untar that tar file, and then you can run 00:37:13.280 --> 00:37:14.260 the server without it. 00:37:14.480 --> 00:37:17.400 It's all its dependencies bundled, you don't actually need tar. 00:37:18.200 --> 00:37:22.440 So you can go to 00:37:23.240 --> 00:37:26.260 So I can run it in a headless server, no GUI? 00:37:26.260 --> 00:37:29.040 Yes, no GUI, just run the server. 00:37:29.780 --> 00:37:37.600 There's an executable called calibre-server, so you can run the 00:37:37.600 --> 00:37:42.220 server, and that same server is running now via command line program 00:37:42.520 --> 00:37:46.360 So you can install this on any Linux machine and run the server 00:37:46.360 --> 00:37:49.660 and access it from anywhere. 00:37:50.260 --> 00:37:54.440 In fact, there are other projects, third-party projects that make 00:37:54.440 --> 00:37:57.160 their own Calibre servers, the most popular is something called 00:37:57.160 --> 00:38:01.300 Calibreweb, so you can use that instead with your Calibre library 00:38:01.300 --> 00:38:04.860 if you don't like the look of the default. 00:38:12.180 --> 00:38:15.400 So one other feature I'd like to highlight in Calibre, which some 00:38:15.400 --> 00:38:17.920 people don't know about, is the Fetch News feature. 00:38:18.280 --> 00:38:22.920 So the Fetch News feature basically allows you to download news 00:38:22.920 --> 00:38:25.020 from news websites, publicly accessible websites. 00:38:25.960 --> 00:38:29.800 So you can see that there's a whole bunch of, there are thousands of these. 00:38:30.200 --> 00:38:33.440 These are based on scripts called recipes that are maintained 00:38:33.440 --> 00:38:34.980 by Calibre users and me. 00:38:35.820 --> 00:38:39.660 And so they go out and they scrape the website and they download 00:38:39.660 --> 00:38:45.780 the news, and you can read the news as an e-book. 00:38:45.900 --> 00:38:51.580 So this is nice because it gives you a distraction-free sort of 00:38:51.580 --> 00:38:53.220 environment in which to read the news. 00:38:54.020 --> 00:38:57.940 You can't comment and you can't get distracted by external links 00:38:57.940 --> 00:38:58.600 and so on. 00:38:59.100 --> 00:39:00.760 And you can just focus on the actual content. 00:39:01.200 --> 00:39:01.700 So I do that. 00:39:01.960 --> 00:39:03.820 I mean, I personally, like I said, I read a lot. 00:39:05.440 --> 00:39:09.460 So I download three or four of these publications every week and 00:39:09.460 --> 00:39:10.460 I read them. 00:39:10.500 --> 00:39:17.600 In fact, one of my happy side effects is my daughter also uses 00:39:17.600 --> 00:39:20.720 Calibre to download publications and she likes to read them and 00:39:20.720 --> 00:39:21.620 I read them. 00:39:21.620 --> 00:39:25.800 So that was something kind of cool to see for myself. 00:39:27.360 --> 00:39:33.100 So yeah, that's the main headline features of Calibre. 00:39:33.620 --> 00:39:38.040 But it's, of course, it's the tip of the iceberg and I think that's suitable for. 00:39:38.700 --> 00:39:43.840 Now, my wife has a Kindle and sending books to that thing is not 00:39:43.840 --> 00:39:48.080 something that I enjoy, you know, because I have to send it to 00:39:48.080 --> 00:39:50.980 an email or I have to download an app. 00:39:50.980 --> 00:39:54.060 And it's just, I keep forgetting how to send books to it. 00:39:54.120 --> 00:39:56.960 If I have to send a book right now, I don't know how to do it. 00:39:56.960 --> 00:39:57.580 I don't remember. 00:39:57.900 --> 00:39:58.520 I have no idea. 00:39:58.740 --> 00:40:00.060 So let me give you a demo. 00:40:00.200 --> 00:40:01.500 I have a Kindle somewhere here. 00:40:01.660 --> 00:40:03.540 Let me just pick it up. 00:40:03.660 --> 00:40:06.800 I think this is the Kindle paper. 00:40:06.800 --> 00:40:07.680 I can see it. 00:40:08.420 --> 00:40:09.700 Yeah, I see it. 00:40:10.280 --> 00:40:14.200 So all I need to do is good old USB cable. 00:40:14.780 --> 00:40:15.560 There's no network. 00:40:16.220 --> 00:40:17.780 Amazon is not snooping on me. 00:40:18.720 --> 00:40:22.960 My Kindle stays in airplane mode all the time. 00:40:23.620 --> 00:40:25.860 I plug it into the, I'm plugging it into my laptop. 00:40:26.640 --> 00:40:31.880 If you look at the screen, if you look at the screen, yeah, it'll 00:40:31.880 --> 00:40:32.880 show up in a minute. 00:40:33.180 --> 00:40:35.160 It takes just two seconds to connect. 00:40:35.320 --> 00:40:36.920 You see, it's connected. 00:40:38.080 --> 00:40:39.900 So you just, so you just click on the book. 00:40:40.020 --> 00:40:42.160 Say I want to read the importance of being honest. 00:40:42.320 --> 00:40:45.160 You just click on this book and then click send to device. 00:40:45.700 --> 00:40:49.440 And Calibre will ask you convert the book to the format for the device. 00:40:50.340 --> 00:40:51.340 Because it's not pre-converted. 00:40:52.300 --> 00:40:53.020 Click yes, and that's it. 00:40:53.800 --> 00:40:57.780 It will automatically convert it to whatever Amazon's format is. 00:40:58.400 --> 00:40:59.000 Mobi, I think. 00:40:59.060 --> 00:41:00.140 Yes, yes, yes, yes. 00:41:00.260 --> 00:41:01.280 Mobi is the old one. 00:41:01.300 --> 00:41:02.360 Amazon actually has three formats. 00:41:03.240 --> 00:41:04.280 Let's not get into that. 00:41:04.420 --> 00:41:06.660 But it will get the most appropriate format for your Kindle 00:41:06.840 --> 00:41:11.740 and put it on the Kindle automatically, you can see the list of 00:41:11.740 --> 00:41:12.960 books on the device. 00:41:13.840 --> 00:41:17.100 You can, you know, delete them, whatever. 00:41:17.740 --> 00:41:19.200 transfer into your library and so on. 00:41:21.420 --> 00:41:25.500 So it's very simple, as you saw, you know, just plug it in, click 00:41:25.500 --> 00:41:26.840 the book and you click a button. 00:41:27.240 --> 00:41:31.760 And in fact, one of my happy, happy things I'm happy about with 00:41:31.760 --> 00:41:35.940 Calibre is I get a lot of positive feedback from elderly people. 00:41:37.780 --> 00:41:41.260 And because ebook readers are a big boom for elderly people, you 00:41:41.260 --> 00:41:42.720 can make the font size bigger. 00:41:43.400 --> 00:41:45.080 In fact, I do that myself. 00:41:45.660 --> 00:41:47.040 I don't know if you can see it. 00:41:48.100 --> 00:41:52.000 But yeah, as I age, my eyes have gotten weaker. 00:41:52.200 --> 00:41:55.100 And so I don't like to wear specs while reading on my Kindle. 00:41:55.200 --> 00:41:55.980 So I make the font size bigger. 00:41:56.000 --> 00:41:59.620 So, uh, you know, when I started, I didn't need that. 00:41:59.820 --> 00:42:00.360 Now I do. 00:42:00.580 --> 00:42:03.120 So, so, so I, but the point is, I get feedback from 00:42:03.120 --> 00:42:06.520 a lot of non-technical people, people who are, uh, you know, not 00:42:06.520 --> 00:42:08.900 so comfortable with computers saying that they really find Calibre 00:42:08.900 --> 00:42:09.560 easy to use. 00:42:09.920 --> 00:42:11.480 And now they're, they're able to use it. 00:42:11.480 --> 00:42:13.420 And a lot of people, you know, introduce their parents to it. 00:42:16.420 --> 00:42:20.820 And they're self-sufficient and they can figure it out on their own. Yeah. 00:42:20.880 --> 00:42:22.300 So that's really a good feeling. 00:42:22.480 --> 00:42:23.440 If you can figure it out. Yeah. 00:42:24.180 --> 00:42:25.780 It has happened to me as well. 00:42:25.780 --> 00:42:27.620 My font size used to be smaller. 00:42:28.080 --> 00:42:29.580 It increased this last year. 00:42:29.820 --> 00:42:31.360 My resolution also increased. 00:42:31.460 --> 00:42:34.140 So it's just going to get bigger and bigger from now on. 00:42:34.180 --> 00:42:35.720 I have a question for you. 00:42:36.180 --> 00:42:41.080 Have you gotten in trouble with Sony or with Amazon or any of 00:42:41.080 --> 00:42:42.820 these companies due to this tool? 00:42:43.500 --> 00:42:44.000 No, not at all. 00:42:44.140 --> 00:42:48.520 I don't, uh, so Calibre itself doesn't have any, uh, say DRM breaking facilities. 00:42:48.760 --> 00:42:51.520 Although there are third-party plugins that do this, Calibre itself 00:42:51.520 --> 00:42:52.400 doesn't do anything. 00:42:52.440 --> 00:42:53.100 So I've never gotten in trouble. 00:42:53.100 --> 00:42:56.660 In fact, in fact, in the early days, Sony wanted to buy Calibre. 00:42:57.280 --> 00:43:02.600 I remember going to their San Diego offices and talking to them about it. 00:43:03.020 --> 00:43:03.520 I don't know. 00:43:03.680 --> 00:43:07.440 One thing that didn't end up happening, but yeah, no, I've never 00:43:07.440 --> 00:43:07.940 gotten in trouble. 00:43:09.280 --> 00:43:12.900 Did they, didn't they get upset when you reverse engineered their 00:43:12.900 --> 00:43:15.240 protocol and all that stuff, Sony? 00:43:15.460 --> 00:43:16.340 They were really happy. 00:43:16.680 --> 00:43:20.700 So, you know, Calibre ended up being a better program than their 00:43:20.700 --> 00:43:22.680 proprietary reading program. 00:43:22.680 --> 00:43:24.380 Which often happens, you know, when the hardware companies are 00:43:24.380 --> 00:43:25.500 not good enough to make software or whatever. 00:43:26.520 --> 00:43:29.260 So, uh, and so they were happy because, uh, you know, Calibre 00:43:29.260 --> 00:43:33.220 was making their device more useful using their sales. 00:43:34.080 --> 00:43:35.180 They had no problem with it. 00:43:36.060 --> 00:43:40.500 Um, and in fact, so the PRS-500, the first one that at least had 00:43:40.500 --> 00:43:43.120 their own proprietary protocol, but later on they changed and 00:43:43.120 --> 00:43:46.320 the later models use the standard USB mass storage protocol. 00:43:46.840 --> 00:43:51.240 And so, uh, you know, there was no need for reverse engineering, 00:43:51.240 --> 00:43:52.740 uh, their protocol. 00:43:52.760 --> 00:43:55.200 And they started supporting the pod format over the next years 00:43:55.200 --> 00:43:56.280 that the PRS has gone through. 00:43:56.660 --> 00:43:59.840 So, so that was, uh, you know, good thing. 00:44:00.180 --> 00:44:03.920 And yes, they never had any, any, any issues with Calibre. 00:44:04.700 --> 00:44:05.200 Same with Amazon. 00:44:05.500 --> 00:44:09.100 I've had only, I think one interaction 00:44:09.100 --> 00:44:11.760 with somebody at Amazon, which was about some technical issue, 00:44:12.260 --> 00:44:18.460 but no, no, no, no problems. Okay. 00:44:18.460 --> 00:44:23.240 Now, um, well, Rumen in the comments says that, genius, that is 00:44:23.240 --> 00:44:27.120 what happens when a software developer solves problems for something 00:44:27.120 --> 00:44:28.200 that they're using. 00:44:28.200 --> 00:44:29.920 You use your tools, right? 00:44:29.920 --> 00:44:33.080 That's like one of the, yeah. 00:44:33.400 --> 00:44:36.700 So I mean, I make them because I use them myself. Yeah. 00:44:36.700 --> 00:44:40.140 That's the reason I mean, that's the reason they're, they're good actually. 00:44:40.500 --> 00:44:44.980 Now, do you ever get in trouble with Kitty because of the language 00:44:44.980 --> 00:44:46.640 that you decided to use Python? 00:44:46.640 --> 00:44:52.220 Since we hear every, you know, nowadays everyone is like Rust, Rust, Rust. 00:44:52.260 --> 00:44:54.740 You just hear that everywhere. Right? 00:44:55.240 --> 00:45:00.580 Uh, so on the contrary, I think Python using Python is one of Kitty's strengths. 00:45:01.180 --> 00:45:04.880 Um, so Kitty has a system called Kittens, which are like small 00:45:04.880 --> 00:45:10.220 programs that you can use to, uh, you know, to customize it behavior 00:45:10.220 --> 00:45:12.600 and modify its UI and so on. 00:45:13.060 --> 00:45:16.140 And so these are in Python and, and this feature was easy for 00:45:16.140 --> 00:45:18.140 me to add because Kitty was already in Python. 00:45:18.880 --> 00:45:21.420 Uh, so, you know, the problem that most people have with Python 00:45:21.420 --> 00:45:25.560 is that it's slow, but that's irrelevant because you will drop 00:45:25.560 --> 00:45:28.280 down to C or some other compiled language, whatever you like, 00:45:28.900 --> 00:45:31.540 um, for the performance sensitive parts. 00:45:31.800 --> 00:45:36.780 So like, for example, uh, in, in Kitty, um, the parsing of the 00:45:36.780 --> 00:45:42.600 text stream from the terminal program actually, uh, uses, uh, SIMD instruction. 00:45:42.840 --> 00:45:49.280 So that's, that's the one, um, in multi, uh, processing, uh, multiple 00:45:49.280 --> 00:45:52.320 amounts of data with a single CPU instruction, uh, so-called vector programming. 00:45:53.940 --> 00:45:58.320 Um, so I had to, so I wrote that by hand, uh, using a library 00:45:58.320 --> 00:46:00.240 called SIMD in C. 00:46:00.620 --> 00:46:03.780 And so, so, you know, when Kitty's parsing data, which is the 00:46:03.780 --> 00:46:07.020 performance sensitive part, it does this using, not even using, 00:46:07.040 --> 00:46:09.920 you know, regular C, but using something called SIMD, which is, 00:46:09.940 --> 00:46:13.020 which leverages your processor to the maximum for maximum performance 00:46:13.020 --> 00:46:14.040 and power efficiency. 00:46:14.820 --> 00:46:16.820 So, you know, the Python is not involved at all. 00:46:17.320 --> 00:46:20.220 Like once all the parsing is done and most of the, you know, things 00:46:20.220 --> 00:46:23.820 be converted to characters and styles and whatever else, then 00:46:23.820 --> 00:46:27.340 at some point Python gets involved and, you know, tells, tells 00:46:27.340 --> 00:46:30.500 the rest of the system where I'm a window to draw the, you know, 00:46:30.500 --> 00:46:33.480 to draw that buffer of characters, but that whole buffer of characters 00:46:33.480 --> 00:46:35.580 and its management is all happens in C. 00:46:36.740 --> 00:46:41.240 Um, so, you know, the performance aspect is completely irrelevant. 00:46:42.080 --> 00:46:45.460 And, uh, and, uh, python gives you a lot of flexibility. 00:46:45.920 --> 00:46:47.060 It's a great scripting language. 00:46:47.120 --> 00:46:48.900 I know most of the scripting languages in the world. 00:46:49.660 --> 00:46:52.160 And, uh, you know, so you can, you can stream Kitty in Python, 00:46:52.380 --> 00:46:52.940 which is great. 00:46:52.940 --> 00:46:55.820 And that came for free because the UI is in Python. 00:46:58.260 --> 00:47:01.640 Um, uh, so, so like, like, like, like, for example, other, uh, 00:47:01.640 --> 00:47:05.280 terminal terminators, mainly a compiled language, but be it Rust 00:47:05.280 --> 00:47:09.220 or C++ or whatever, they have to bolt on scripting. 00:47:09.320 --> 00:47:12.100 You know, you have to, you have to add a scripting engine and 00:47:12.100 --> 00:47:14.220 then expose your native APIs to it. 00:47:14.620 --> 00:47:17.620 Whereas in Kitty it's naturally there because everything's implemented. 00:47:18.740 --> 00:47:20.660 The higher level APIs are all in Python already. 00:47:21.440 --> 00:47:23.960 So yeah, you have, you have kittens written in Python, have access 00:47:23.960 --> 00:47:27.160 to everything, out of the box, I don't have to keep like, you know, 00:47:27.180 --> 00:47:28.540 bridging things and exposing things. 00:47:28.780 --> 00:47:31.680 I mean, it's, it's very efficient. 00:47:32.140 --> 00:47:33.140 Create a kitten. 00:47:33.280 --> 00:47:38.540 If I want to extend Kitty some way, just Python, not, no, no gimmicks, just Python. 00:47:39.160 --> 00:47:40.440 And, and it would work. 00:47:42.020 --> 00:47:44.820 So you, you can't, you can't do things like, uh, you know, change 00:47:44.820 --> 00:47:49.940 how Kitty parses input from the program because that happens in, in C code. 00:47:50.480 --> 00:47:53.480 But, but the whole UI, is in Python. 00:47:53.660 --> 00:47:55.900 So you can, you know, that's the part that users mostly care about, right? 00:47:55.900 --> 00:47:59.460 You don't care about how to deep down the guts of the thing work. Yeah. 00:47:59.460 --> 00:48:00.400 You care about the UI. 00:48:00.400 --> 00:48:03.540 You care about the experience of using it and customizing it. 00:48:03.540 --> 00:48:06.420 So that part is in Python and that, that's why it's customizable. 00:48:06.840 --> 00:48:08.420 So I think that that worked very well. 00:48:08.500 --> 00:48:12.980 And, uh, uh, and so, and so, so, you know, the thing that people 00:48:12.980 --> 00:48:17.360 have against C, uh, is that it's not memory safe, but, and that's 00:48:17.360 --> 00:48:18.340 true, it's not memory safe. 00:48:19.120 --> 00:48:23.600 But, uh, if you're a little bit careful and disciplined, um, that, 00:48:23.660 --> 00:48:25.400 that, that issue can be managed quite well. 00:48:25.420 --> 00:48:27.660 So like, if you look at Kitty's security history, there have been, 00:48:29.440 --> 00:48:33.860 1 or 2 unrelated, uh, bugs in almost a decade of history. 00:48:35.120 --> 00:48:39.780 So 00:48:39.780 --> 00:48:43.260 the main place that memory issues tend to bite people is in the 00:48:43.260 --> 00:48:45.600 lifetimes of objects or pieces of data. 00:48:45.700 --> 00:48:50.120 you forget to free something or use 00:48:50.120 --> 00:48:51.020 something afterwards freed. 00:48:51.260 --> 00:48:55.840 So I avoid that in the design of Kitty by mostly tying that into 00:48:56.300 --> 00:48:57.620 Python's memory management. 00:48:57.620 --> 00:49:02.840 So all the data structures also have a second, uh, identity as Python objects. 00:49:03.340 --> 00:49:06.620 So the Python runtime manages their lifetimes for me. 00:49:06.900 --> 00:49:09.120 So I can rely on it to clean it up with the garbage collection 00:49:09.120 --> 00:49:13.340 or whatever, but all the actual hot processing happens in C. 00:49:14.300 --> 00:49:17.260 Um, so, you know, using that, that combination, you get most of 00:49:17.260 --> 00:49:20.100 the memory safety just by piggybacking on Python's runtime. 00:49:21.020 --> 00:49:24.680 Um, but you can drop down to, you know, absolute, uh, speed to 00:49:24.680 --> 00:49:28.380 the extent of send instructions on, uh, whatever. 00:49:28.500 --> 00:49:29.620 I mean, you can see, you can do anything. 00:49:30.820 --> 00:49:34.440 I mean, you can even write, you know, pure assembly to an embedded 00:49:34.440 --> 00:49:34.980 thing, you see. 00:49:35.660 --> 00:49:37.640 So it doesn't get faster than that. 00:49:37.760 --> 00:49:41.340 So I think it's a, it's a, it's an underappreciated, but a good 00:49:41.580 --> 00:49:43.020 combination, at least it works for me. 00:49:43.900 --> 00:49:45.980 I always wondered, yeah. 00:49:45.980 --> 00:49:49.900 I always wondered why I didn't feel Kitty slow since it's written 00:49:49.900 --> 00:49:52.900 in Python, but I didn't understand like the heavy lifting and 00:49:52.900 --> 00:49:57.420 all the power processing is done in C because I compared it with, 00:49:57.420 --> 00:50:00.420 um, wezterm, which is written in Rust. 00:50:00.620 --> 00:50:04.220 I think Ghosty without Tmux, the three of them, right. 00:50:04.220 --> 00:50:07.660 Just scrolling up and down, you know, JK, just scrolling up and down. 00:50:07.980 --> 00:50:11.800 And I was like, but Kitty is Python and I don't see it slow. 00:50:11.940 --> 00:50:16.300 I don't feel a difference between the three, to be honest, Kitty, um, wezterm and ghostty. 00:50:16.760 --> 00:50:19.480 There is, there is no user perceptible difference. 00:50:19.960 --> 00:50:23.820 On all modern terminals, uh, you know, are designed with performance in mind. 00:50:23.820 --> 00:50:25.780 So like I said, you know, 10 years back when I started Kitty, 00:50:25.940 --> 00:50:28.520 this was not the case, a lot of core terminals left a lot of performance 00:50:28.520 --> 00:50:29.020 on the run. 00:50:30.600 --> 00:50:33.700 So, but the new generation of terminals all start out with performance in mind. 00:50:33.740 --> 00:50:35.120 So they're all pretty performant. 00:50:35.960 --> 00:50:38.600 I mean, there's not much user perceptible difference. 00:50:38.680 --> 00:50:40.640 I mean, if you run, if you run benchmarks, you can see the difference. 00:50:41.320 --> 00:50:44.060 But, uh, just from regular usage, you don't see any significant. Yeah. 00:50:44.080 --> 00:50:47.420 That's what matters, what you see and what you feel. Yeah. 00:50:47.840 --> 00:50:51.660 Now, how involved are you with, uh, both of the projects with 00:50:52.060 --> 00:50:57.180 and, um, and Kitty, are they mainly community driven or you take 00:50:57.180 --> 00:50:58.140 all the calls? 00:50:58.420 --> 00:50:59.200 How does that work? 00:50:59.840 --> 00:51:02.020 Um, so I work full time on, on open source. 00:51:02.400 --> 00:51:04.180 So, uh, like I said, that is my day jobs. 00:51:04.280 --> 00:51:05.260 Caliber is a huge community. 00:51:05.880 --> 00:51:07.900 Uh, it's fun to contribute. 00:51:08.360 --> 00:51:14.040 Engage with users. I deal with roughly about a hundred pieces of user 00:51:14.040 --> 00:51:18.060 communication every day, day in and day out for years on end. 00:51:18.060 --> 00:51:21.940 So, uh, and I merge PRs. 00:51:22.040 --> 00:51:22.540 I write code. 00:51:22.680 --> 00:51:26.340 I mean, so, so the reason I do this, like I said, I, I mean, I 00:51:26.340 --> 00:51:29.200 started out doing this for my own use, but obviously, I mean, 00:51:29.240 --> 00:51:33.100 they're grown far beyond that, I don't need, you know, 80% of 00:51:33.100 --> 00:51:36.180 the features that Caliber and Kitty have for my own personal use. 00:51:36.840 --> 00:51:41.040 Um, but you know, so those are common response to user requests 00:51:41.040 --> 00:51:42.600 and organic growth. 00:51:43.540 --> 00:51:46.800 Um, so, but the reason I do it is because I actually love coding. 00:51:47.100 --> 00:51:47.600 I love programming. 00:51:48.060 --> 00:51:48.740 I always have. 00:51:48.760 --> 00:51:52.120 I started programming at the age of seven and I've been programming 00:51:52.120 --> 00:51:52.740 all my life. 00:51:52.920 --> 00:51:54.560 So it's just something I love to do. 00:51:54.860 --> 00:51:57.500 So I make sure that I'm, you know, mostly programming. 00:51:57.760 --> 00:52:01.040 And then I, of course, do the user emails and support and stuff. 00:52:01.980 --> 00:52:02.920 And I merge PRs. 00:52:03.100 --> 00:52:09.360 And yes, I am the so-called benevolent dictator for life on both those projects. 00:52:09.380 --> 00:52:13.080 So I made the final calls and everything, but, uh, well, I'm very 00:52:13.080 --> 00:52:16.520 open to, uh, you know, people's ideas and PRs. 00:52:16.520 --> 00:52:20.220 You can see, if you go to the contributors page of both these 00:52:20.220 --> 00:52:22.600 projects, there are between 100 people that have contributed code 00:52:22.600 --> 00:52:23.360 to each project. 00:52:24.020 --> 00:52:31.060 So, uh, you know, um, yeah, that's, that's all it works for me. Hmm. Okay. Okay. 00:52:31.280 --> 00:52:33.980 Both of these projects have a bus factor of one. 00:52:35.060 --> 00:52:41.580 So that's why I do so much excercise, trying to keep myself healthy. Oh, okay. 00:52:43.400 --> 00:52:46.400 Now, um, I have a tough one for you. 00:52:46.420 --> 00:52:47.500 I have a good question. 00:52:47.920 --> 00:52:48.540 You want to see? 00:52:48.760 --> 00:52:53.040 Let me, uh, let me get some water first, yep yep, grab your water first 00:52:53.760 --> 00:52:54.760 You mentioned it. 00:52:55.000 --> 00:52:56.100 We briefly talked about it. 00:52:56.220 --> 00:52:58.880 I think you know what I'm going to ask probably, right? 00:53:00.080 --> 00:53:03.440 So lemme just say it, what are your thoughts on tmux? 00:53:04.840 --> 00:53:08.340 Oh, I, I don't have anything against tmux in particular, but terminal 00:53:08.340 --> 00:53:12.700 multiplexers as a whole, I, I think are a bad idea. 00:53:13.160 --> 00:53:15.220 Um, it's, the reason is quite simple. 00:53:15.640 --> 00:53:17.940 There are two, there are two reasons. 00:53:17.940 --> 00:53:23.600 One is, um, so a terminal multiplexer works, I mean, it is a traditional 00:53:23.600 --> 00:53:29.560 type of terminal multiplexer like tmux, um, works by, um, essentially 00:53:29.560 --> 00:53:31.580 implementing a terminal inside a terminal. 00:53:32.100 --> 00:53:36.280 So every byte of data that comes from the actual terminal application 00:53:36.280 --> 00:53:38.440 has to be interpreted by two terminals. 00:53:39.480 --> 00:53:45.360 Obviously this is a doubling of, you know, the cost, the halving 00:53:45.360 --> 00:53:48.440 of performance, doubling of CPU cost, whatever. 00:53:48.880 --> 00:53:49.660 But this cant be avoided 00:53:49.800 --> 00:53:53.540 No matter how well tmux designed it, you know, it is two terminals 00:53:53.540 --> 00:53:54.240 in the end. 00:53:54.740 --> 00:53:58.700 Um, so that is one, one obvious problem with terminal multiplexers. 00:53:58.800 --> 00:54:03.160 The other more insidious problem that most users may not realize 00:54:03.160 --> 00:54:08.860 or care about even is that, um, it makes it much harder to, uh, 00:54:08.860 --> 00:54:14.960 design new features into the terminal ecosystem because, uh, the 00:54:14.960 --> 00:54:17.300 terminal multiplexers, like I said, they're a second terminal, right? 00:54:17.300 --> 00:54:21.120 So if somebody is using say kitty and tmux, for a feature to work 00:54:21.120 --> 00:54:26.920 well, it has to be supported by both tmux and kitty, uh, and only, 00:54:27.000 --> 00:54:29.500 only both of them cooperate and both of them implement that feature. 00:54:29.680 --> 00:54:32.640 Does that feature actually end up in the hands of the end user 00:54:33.740 --> 00:54:36.000 Um, and, and, and it's worse than that. 00:54:36.000 --> 00:54:41.180 And that's because, uh, a terminal multiplexer, uh, works by essentially, 00:54:41.440 --> 00:54:46.800 uh, rewriting the escape codes that, uh, move between the terminal 00:54:46.800 --> 00:54:47.680 and the terminal program. 00:54:48.120 --> 00:54:50.620 So it has to do that because, you know, it splits up the screen, 00:54:51.080 --> 00:54:53.220 but the terminal doesn't know the screen has been split. 00:54:53.400 --> 00:54:55.120 The terminal program doesn't know the screen has been split. 00:54:55.760 --> 00:54:57.980 So, you know, they are both working on the assumption there's 00:54:57.980 --> 00:55:01.860 a single screen, but to somehow make that into two screens or, 00:55:01.960 --> 00:55:04.780 you know, movement, things like, say like a command to move the 00:55:04.780 --> 00:55:08.380 cursor to the end of the line, a simple command, or say the beginning 00:55:08.380 --> 00:55:10.520 of the line, even simple, that's the carriage return. 00:55:10.760 --> 00:55:12.500 That's just a simple character, right? 00:55:12.800 --> 00:55:16.280 Supposing you're in the right-hand side pane of a tmux split. 00:55:17.280 --> 00:55:21.800 Now, if, if, if tmux passed that carriage return character unmodified 00:55:21.800 --> 00:55:24.420 to the terminal below it, the cursor would actually move to the 00:55:24.420 --> 00:55:28.000 beginning of the left pane, but the program that's running in 00:55:28.000 --> 00:55:30.080 the right pane would have expected it to move to the beginning 00:55:30.080 --> 00:55:32.020 of the right pane, like that's its window. 00:55:32.540 --> 00:55:37.000 So tmux has to actually intercept that escape code and, you know, 00:55:37.000 --> 00:55:39.960 change it to something else, changes it to a cursor movement code 00:55:39.960 --> 00:55:43.740 that actually moves the cursor to the beginning of the right pane, 00:55:43.800 --> 00:55:45.740 which is actually the middle of the screen as far as the terminal, 00:55:45.840 --> 00:55:46.840 the actual terminal is concerned. 00:55:47.600 --> 00:55:49.700 And this is the simplest possible thing. 00:55:49.880 --> 00:55:52.040 It's the carriage return, you know, it's a really simple escape code. 00:55:52.160 --> 00:55:54.140 There are far more complicated escape codes. 00:55:54.240 --> 00:55:56.960 Like I told you a little bit about the kitty graphics protocol and 00:55:56.960 --> 00:55:59.780 Unicode placeholders and kind of hacks that we had to do to get 00:55:59.780 --> 00:56:00.580 it to work with tmux. 00:56:00.580 --> 00:56:05.240 So, you know, it imposes that kind of cost on the entire ecosystem. 00:56:06.920 --> 00:56:11.340 It becomes much harder, for new features to be developed and to propagate. 00:56:12.700 --> 00:56:15.720 You know, it ends up being like, there is, there is just a couple 00:56:15.720 --> 00:56:16.980 of gatekeepers for these features. 00:56:17.080 --> 00:56:19.740 So like, if I want to implement some feature on my terminal and 00:56:19.740 --> 00:56:22.800 make it available to my users, if my users are using tmux, I can't 00:56:22.800 --> 00:56:26.340 do it because, until, unless I can convince the tmux developers 00:56:26.340 --> 00:56:28.140 to agree with me and implement that feature too. 00:56:28.140 --> 00:56:30.520 I mean, I can try to do some hacks like I did with the graphics 00:56:30.520 --> 00:56:33.800 protocol, but, you know, that's suboptimal for obvious reasons. 00:56:35.260 --> 00:56:38.720 So that is, so, you know, I think that terminal multiplexers are 00:56:38.720 --> 00:56:42.640 a sort of drag on the ecosystem's evolution as a whole. 00:56:42.880 --> 00:56:49.160 So that is one of the other reasons that I think that terminal 00:56:49.160 --> 00:56:50.480 multiplexers are not a good idea. 00:56:50.660 --> 00:56:54.560 And finally, a terminal is really a giant state machine. 00:56:54.660 --> 00:56:56.060 There's like a huge amount of state. 00:56:56.060 --> 00:56:59.820 You know, the current text color, the, you know, the decorations, 00:57:00.300 --> 00:57:05.060 the underlines, the, you know, various little knobs that change 00:57:05.060 --> 00:57:06.940 what happens when you receive escape codes. 00:57:07.060 --> 00:57:09.700 I mean, I'm not going to go into details, but there's like a huge 00:57:09.700 --> 00:57:11.720 amount of state that every terminal maintains. 00:57:12.880 --> 00:57:15.920 And a terminal multiplexer not only maintains the state itself, 00:57:15.980 --> 00:57:19.680 it has to translate this state between its own state and what, 00:57:20.320 --> 00:57:24.940 and, you know, into some kind of state that works with its host terminal. 00:57:24.940 --> 00:57:26.540 And each host terminal is slightly different. 00:57:26.680 --> 00:57:29.360 You know, they have slightly different behaviors, quirks, features. 00:57:29.600 --> 00:57:32.120 And so the terminal multiplexer has to bridge between them. 00:57:32.340 --> 00:57:34.140 It's like an insanely complex problem. 00:57:34.800 --> 00:57:39.300 You're sort of bridging two, you know, slightly disparate states, 00:57:39.600 --> 00:57:41.100 very complex states, very large states. 00:57:41.220 --> 00:57:42.460 And you do it robustly. 00:57:42.680 --> 00:57:46.700 And so, you know, if you go to any terminal program or sophisticated 00:57:46.700 --> 00:57:49.740 terminal programs, bug tracker, and you search for, say, tmux, 00:57:49.800 --> 00:57:52.760 you find a whole bunch of bugs that occur only inside tmux. 00:57:53.720 --> 00:57:55.300 Not when they're running the host terminal. 00:57:55.720 --> 00:57:56.820 Yeah, I have experience. 00:57:57.000 --> 00:58:00.340 So, I mean, that's kind of the practical consequence of what I'm saying. 00:58:00.580 --> 00:58:03.560 I'm saying it abstractly like state machine and, you know, it 00:58:03.560 --> 00:58:04.220 has to bridge things. 00:58:04.300 --> 00:58:06.840 But the practical consequence is there are a lot of bugs that 00:58:06.840 --> 00:58:11.480 happen because, you know, the program has to run inside a terminal multiplexer. 00:58:12.120 --> 00:58:14.440 And that terminal multiplexer itself is running inside a terminal. 00:58:15.020 --> 00:58:19.200 And it's just an extra layer that, in my opinion, is not worth the cost. 00:58:19.200 --> 00:58:25.420 So, like, if I were to design a multiplexer myself, and this is 00:58:25.420 --> 00:58:29.480 on my to-do list at some point, I might end up doing it, is I 00:58:29.480 --> 00:58:34.740 would not try to split a single TTY into multiple windows. 00:58:35.420 --> 00:58:40.060 Instead, I would, you know, delegate the window management to 00:58:40.060 --> 00:58:45.100 the terminal and have a dedicated TTY per window. 00:58:45.700 --> 00:58:46.560 So, this is much more robust. 00:58:46.560 --> 00:58:48.580 It doesn't require all the, you know, like, for example, the carriage 00:58:48.580 --> 00:58:49.800 return thing that I said. 00:58:50.340 --> 00:58:51.880 It just works automatically. 00:58:52.420 --> 00:58:54.880 So, the downside of this is that my multiplexer will only work 00:58:54.880 --> 00:58:58.660 with, you know, one or two terminals because, you know, it requires 00:58:58.660 --> 00:59:00.760 features from the terminal which different terminals may not have. 00:59:01.020 --> 00:59:04.200 So, for example, kitty doesn't have this, but wezterm has its 00:59:04.200 --> 00:59:08.220 own multiplexer, which you can use as an alternative to tmux. 00:59:09.320 --> 00:59:12.320 So, you know, I don't know the details of how that works, but 00:59:12.320 --> 00:59:13.560 I'm guessing it's something similar. 00:59:14.380 --> 00:59:19.380 And so, if I were ever to make a multiplexer… So, the main use 00:59:19.380 --> 00:59:23.140 case of multiplexers generally is the remote persistence use case. 00:59:23.280 --> 00:59:27.560 So, you're going to SSH into a server and, you know, your network 00:59:27.560 --> 00:59:29.400 connection is flaky, so it could go off any time. 00:59:29.660 --> 00:59:32.100 If you lose it, if your network drops, you don't want to lose your session. 00:59:32.680 --> 00:59:34.700 You know, the running program shouldn't end and so on. 00:59:34.700 --> 00:59:39.060 So, that's the one thing that I would still say that tmux is somewhat useful for. 00:59:39.060 --> 00:59:46.180 For the local use case, I'm of the opinion that multiplexers are completely anti-pattern. 00:59:46.780 --> 00:59:49.620 You can do everything that you can do locally without the multiplexer, 00:59:49.860 --> 00:59:51.020 just as well, if not better. 00:59:52.580 --> 00:59:57.420 But for the remote use case, I can see the use case. 00:59:57.680 --> 00:59:59.020 I personally would not use it. 00:59:59.400 --> 01:00:02.740 I have other ways of dealing with this problem, but I can see 01:00:02.740 --> 01:00:03.700 that it can be useful. 01:00:04.000 --> 01:00:07.280 So, if I were to design a multiplexer, what I would do is I would 01:00:07.280 --> 01:00:10.560 make it, you know, cooperate with this host terminal so that the 01:00:10.560 --> 01:00:13.240 windowing and the splitting of this, you know, the screen, the 01:00:13.240 --> 01:00:18.100 multiplexing part is managed by the terminal and only the session 01:00:18.100 --> 01:00:21.920 persistence part is managed by the actual multiplexer program. 01:00:22.380 --> 01:00:23.380 So, yeah, separation of concerns. 01:00:23.560 --> 01:00:25.560 I mean, it is the terminal's job, after all, to, you know, put 01:00:25.560 --> 01:00:28.280 up windows and interact with them and whatever. 01:00:28.660 --> 01:00:31.140 So, let the terminal do that and let the multiplexer focus on 01:00:31.140 --> 01:00:34.420 the session persistence, which is what it needs to do. Yeah. 01:00:34.420 --> 01:00:37.340 So, you know, that would be my approach. 01:00:38.160 --> 01:00:40.840 I have a question for you there. 01:00:41.780 --> 01:00:45.260 The reason why I use tmux, I don't care about servers because 01:00:45.260 --> 01:00:47.920 I don't, you know, my servers are locally. 01:00:47.920 --> 01:00:49.200 I SSH into them. 01:00:49.280 --> 01:00:51.540 If I lose the connection, I don't care. Right. It's fine. 01:00:51.840 --> 01:00:55.040 That part about tmux is not important for me. 01:00:55.040 --> 01:00:57.000 If it's a remote server, I lose the connection. 01:00:57.100 --> 01:00:59.360 I just SSH into it again. Fine. 01:00:59.660 --> 01:01:01.460 I don't mind about that too much. 01:01:01.780 --> 01:01:05.100 But what I use tmux for is sessions, right? 01:01:05.100 --> 01:01:07.680 With the keyboard shortcut, right? 01:01:08.160 --> 01:01:10.920 Three keys that I press on my keyboard, I jump to my dotfiles. 01:01:11.120 --> 01:01:14.580 If I press another shortcut, I jump to my, what? 01:01:15.140 --> 01:01:16.380 Whatever, project A. 01:01:16.760 --> 01:01:19.680 Another key, I jump to GitHub repos. 01:01:19.800 --> 01:01:22.480 Each one of them is a GitHub repo, which is a tmux session. 01:01:22.700 --> 01:01:26.620 That is the only reason I use tmux. Sessions. 01:01:26.640 --> 01:01:32.360 So, you can completely replicate that using a scriptable Terminal. 01:01:32.360 --> 01:01:44.580 I would say kitty, but I suspect you can do the same with wezterm, Kitty has a remote control API. 01:01:45.200 --> 01:01:47.160 So, let me just show you that one. 01:01:48.140 --> 01:01:49.060 I'll switch to your screen. 01:01:50.720 --> 01:01:54.420 So, can you ask Kitty, okay, is this session running? 01:01:54.520 --> 01:01:56.280 If it is running, just switch to it. 01:01:56.420 --> 01:01:57.440 Do not create it. 01:01:58.480 --> 01:02:00.180 Because that's the main thing, you know? 01:02:00.980 --> 01:02:06.360 So, for example, Kitty has an ls command. 01:02:07.760 --> 01:02:10.700 So, let me show it to you in the actual terminal, and it falls 01:02:10.700 --> 01:02:11.400 in the documentation. 01:02:12.600 --> 01:02:14.560 So, I'm starting Kitty. 01:02:16.300 --> 01:02:19.540 I'm giving it that I want to allow remote control. 01:02:20.020 --> 01:02:22.560 So, here you see, I have started Kitty. 01:02:23.220 --> 01:02:25.400 Now, let me create a couple of windows. 01:02:26.240 --> 01:02:28.580 Supposing in one window, I run cat. 01:02:30.180 --> 01:02:33.960 And now, I want to check if Cat is running. 01:02:34.040 --> 01:02:38.380 So, you can run this command, kitten @ ls 01:02:38.700 --> 01:02:42.000 So, what this does is, it outputs a whole bunch of data in JSON 01:02:42.000 --> 01:02:43.640 format about what windows are running. 01:02:43.700 --> 01:02:50.520 So, you can see in here somewhere, there'll be a window one and window two. 01:02:50.880 --> 01:02:57.320 And somewhere in there, you can see here 01:02:57.320 --> 01:03:01.040 the title 01:03:01.500 --> 01:03:05.220 So, you can see here the foreground processes. 01:03:06.340 --> 01:03:09.560 So, you can see here, this window is running the kitten @ ls 01:03:09.560 --> 01:03:13.000 command, but the next window will be running cat. 01:03:13.460 --> 01:03:16.320 So, you can easily query this using any tool like jq or whatever. 01:03:17.080 --> 01:03:21.460 You have that information at your disposal. 01:03:22.160 --> 01:03:28.280 And then you can run a command like kitten @ focus-window 01:03:28.820 --> 01:03:30.880 and you switch to that window. 01:03:32.680 --> 01:03:34.800 So, I'm showing you the building blocks. 01:03:34.960 --> 01:03:36.000 I'm not showing you a ready-made solution. 01:03:36.120 --> 01:03:37.480 You have to write your own script and so on. 01:03:37.780 --> 01:03:38.760 But the building blocks are there. 01:03:38.840 --> 01:03:40.360 You can do all this kind of thing. 01:03:40.420 --> 01:03:42.700 I mean, I myself use these workflows sometimes. 01:03:43.380 --> 01:03:47.020 And like I showed you in the integrations page, there are... 01:03:50.560 --> 01:03:52.660 But this is panes, right? 01:03:52.660 --> 01:03:54.100 I don't use panes too much. 01:03:54.360 --> 01:03:54.860 I use sessions. 01:03:54.920 --> 01:03:57.540 So, a session occupies the entire screen for me. 01:03:57.780 --> 01:03:59.120 I switch to the other session. 01:03:59.660 --> 01:04:03.220 So, these are called OS windows in kitty. 01:04:03.540 --> 01:04:05.460 It can focus tabs. 01:04:06.080 --> 01:04:07.520 That's the whole screen. 01:04:07.520 --> 01:04:08.900 It can also... 01:04:08.900 --> 01:04:13.040 It's not showing it here, but you can also use it to focus OS windows. 01:04:13.500 --> 01:04:17.920 So, like if you're using a hyprland or some kind of tiling window manager, 01:04:20.760 --> 01:04:26.120 you can get from the ls command, you can get the ID of the window, 01:04:26.760 --> 01:04:28.980 the OS window, and then you can tell your tiling window manager 01:04:28.980 --> 01:04:30.020 to switch to that. 01:04:30.380 --> 01:04:31.380 So, you just write a script. 01:04:32.540 --> 01:04:36.520 Or if you don't want to use a tiling window manager, you can use tabs instead. 01:04:36.800 --> 01:04:39.240 So, tabs work the same as that. 01:04:39.800 --> 01:04:44.720 So, you have one session per tab, and you use a focus tab command 01:04:44.720 --> 01:04:47.520 right here, and then you can do whatever you like. 01:04:47.600 --> 01:04:48.460 I mean, you can build your own workflow. 01:04:48.640 --> 01:04:51.120 So, there are no ready-made workflows for this in kitty, at least 01:04:51.120 --> 01:04:51.760 at the moment. 01:04:52.100 --> 01:04:55.640 But the basic building blocks are there, and you can use them 01:04:55.680 --> 01:04:56.720 to compose your own workflow. 01:04:57.000 --> 01:05:01.280 So, I kind of like that because I have different workflows for different scenarios. 01:05:02.440 --> 01:05:05.300 One size doesn't fit all the scenarios. 01:05:05.860 --> 01:05:08.400 So, in kitty, my philosophy is to give you the building blocks, 01:05:08.660 --> 01:05:12.740 give you the remote control protocol, and a tool to control kitty, 01:05:12.840 --> 01:05:15.120 and then you build it, use it however you like. 01:05:15.460 --> 01:05:18.020 I mean, in fact, remote control doesn't just work within kitty. 01:05:18.120 --> 01:05:19.260 You can use it from outside kitty. 01:05:19.340 --> 01:05:21.400 You can even do it over a TCP port. 01:05:21.400 --> 01:05:23.700 So, you can do it from a different computer in your house. 01:05:23.860 --> 01:05:26.220 I mean, you can possibly design this. 01:05:27.340 --> 01:05:33.180 So, all that is built into kitty, and those building blocks are there. 01:05:33.360 --> 01:05:37.800 So, you can build your tools from that. 01:05:37.860 --> 01:05:39.600 So, I was showing you the editor integration. 01:05:40.700 --> 01:05:45.600 So, for example, vim-slime is a vim plugin that allows you to 01:05:45.600 --> 01:05:49.840 have a LISP REPL that you can control using kitty remote control. 01:05:50.080 --> 01:05:52.960 So, you can just send whatever you're working on to the repo in 01:05:52.960 --> 01:05:56.500 the neighboring pane, and have it execute that kind of thing. 01:05:57.180 --> 01:06:02.040 So, kakoune is an editor that doesn't have its own windowing, but 01:06:02.040 --> 01:06:06.000 it integrates with tmux or with kitty or other multiplexers. 01:06:06.360 --> 01:06:09.500 So, we use the native windows of that solution other than its own windows. 01:06:12.040 --> 01:06:15.660 So, the building blocks are there, and people have made things with them. 01:06:16.220 --> 01:06:21.800 So, if you wish to look into it, you can do so, and make your 01:06:21.800 --> 01:06:25.920 own solution that your particular personal workflow. Oh, okay. 01:06:26.120 --> 01:06:30.900 Do you talk to the tmux maintainer for compatibility when you 01:06:30.900 --> 01:06:32.540 try to deploy something new? 01:06:33.020 --> 01:06:33.940 Do you have communication? 01:06:34.240 --> 01:06:35.040 What's his name? 01:06:35.700 --> 01:06:36.740 I don't remember his name. 01:06:39.100 --> 01:06:41.680 I did try, but he wasn't interested. 01:06:42.260 --> 01:06:43.720 So, I don't anymore. 01:06:45.260 --> 01:06:51.060 Now, when I make something new, I try to keep in mind the needs of multiplexers. 01:06:52.440 --> 01:06:55.760 I have some facility in there, so I'll show you an example. 01:06:57.880 --> 01:07:01.220 So, this is a section in the kitty website called terminal protocol extensions. 01:07:02.320 --> 01:07:04.300 So, let's look at desktop notifications. 01:07:05.220 --> 01:07:11.260 So, this is an extension that kitty has that allows you to show 01:07:11.260 --> 01:07:13.980 desktop notifications on the user's desktop from the terminal 01:07:13.980 --> 01:07:16.880 program using the escape codes. 01:07:17.380 --> 01:07:20.240 So, there are already existing solutions, but kitty is one that 01:07:20.240 --> 01:07:24.140 adds various features that show a button when a notification wins. 01:07:25.940 --> 01:07:32.480 Anyway, the point is that, going all the way down, there is this 01:07:32.480 --> 01:07:34.300 little section, identifier. 01:07:35.560 --> 01:07:39.920 So, the thing with notifications here is that when the terminal 01:07:39.920 --> 01:07:41.680 program sends a notification, it has a button. 01:07:41.840 --> 01:07:45.000 The user can click that button, and then the terminal sends back 01:07:45.000 --> 01:07:49.980 an event to the terminal program saying that this button has been clicked. 01:07:51.120 --> 01:07:54.600 So, how is that working with the terminal multiplexer? 01:07:54.760 --> 01:07:57.580 Because the terminal doesn't know which program inside the terminal 01:07:57.580 --> 01:07:59.900 multiplexer has sent a thing. 01:08:00.100 --> 01:08:05.140 So, this identifier feature is there just for that, so that terminal 01:08:05.140 --> 01:08:08.080 multiplexers can add identifiers to these escape codes. 01:08:08.280 --> 01:08:09.840 Like I said, they have to rewrite escape codes. 01:08:10.140 --> 01:08:12.160 So, they rewrite the escape code adding an identifier. 01:08:12.720 --> 01:08:15.600 And so, when the terminal responds to that notification with an 01:08:15.800 --> 01:08:18.700 event, it sends back that identifier, and the terminal multiplexer 01:08:18.700 --> 01:08:21.300 can read that identifier and from its own internal list, send 01:08:21.300 --> 01:08:22.080 it to the correct window. 01:08:22.680 --> 01:08:27.240 So, these kind of things I try to keep in mind so that multiplexers 01:08:27.240 --> 01:08:28.860 can work with features like this. 01:08:29.860 --> 01:08:35.720 It's not always possible to do so without cooperation from multiplexer 01:08:35.720 --> 01:08:39.220 authors, but as much as possible, I do that. 01:08:42.160 --> 01:08:44.920 That is one of my problems with terminal multiplexers. 01:08:45.140 --> 01:08:46.180 It just makes everything harder. 01:08:47.360 --> 01:08:50.680 Here, there is a dedicated channel between the terminal and the program. 01:08:51.040 --> 01:08:52.420 So, you don't need to worry about identifiers. 01:08:52.560 --> 01:08:54.160 You don't need to care about who sent what. 01:08:54.240 --> 01:08:56.440 It just goes on the channel, and it's automatic. 01:08:56.920 --> 01:08:59.680 Once you put a multiplexer in the mix, you have, okay, which window 01:08:59.680 --> 01:09:00.500 did it come from? 01:09:02.400 --> 01:09:05.100 If two notifications come from two different windows at the same 01:09:05.100 --> 01:09:05.780 time, what happens? 01:09:06.140 --> 01:09:11.740 All these sort of things you have to think about and complicates life unnecessarily. Yeah. 01:09:12.240 --> 01:09:16.180 I think sessions is one of the main reasons why a lot of people 01:09:16.180 --> 01:09:17.480 use Tmux still. 01:09:17.540 --> 01:09:20.920 There's other people that do the remote server thing that you mentioned, right? 01:09:20.960 --> 01:09:25.780 So, imagine that having a protocol that not only works in Kitty, 01:09:25.840 --> 01:09:27.880 but works with Ghosty wezterm as well. 01:09:28.180 --> 01:09:31.980 Like, I don't know, a session protocol that works regardless of 01:09:31.980 --> 01:09:33.240 the terminal that you use (you see what I did there MF, planting a seed) 01:09:34.280 --> 01:09:40.600 So, the problem with that is that it becomes a sort of lowest common denominator issue. 01:09:40.600 --> 01:09:44.600 Then the protocol can expose only features that all the terminals 01:09:44.600 --> 01:09:45.440 that support it have. 01:09:45.940 --> 01:09:48.980 So, if you want a new feature, all the terminals have to agree. 01:09:49.180 --> 01:09:50.960 And so, that becomes a break on development again. 01:09:51.240 --> 01:09:52.580 That's a trade-off, right? 01:09:52.580 --> 01:09:55.860 But the advantage is that then the multiplexer using that protocol 01:09:55.860 --> 01:09:58.820 would work with all the terminals robustly. 01:09:59.280 --> 01:10:01.640 So, I mean, it's a trade-off, right? 01:10:02.460 --> 01:10:06.820 And different producers will be able to disagree on what end of 01:10:06.820 --> 01:10:08.840 the trade-off makes more sense. 01:10:09.540 --> 01:10:14.420 So, I'm very firmly of the camp that multiplexers, at least the 01:10:14.420 --> 01:10:17.660 traditional ones like Tmux, are a bit of an anti-pattern. 01:10:18.980 --> 01:10:22.800 I personally have been using terminals for a very long time. 01:10:23.620 --> 01:10:27.120 And like everybody else, I was excited by my multiplexer when 01:10:27.120 --> 01:10:28.900 I formed my workflow. 01:10:29.440 --> 01:10:33.820 But even back then, I came across issues that were caused just 01:10:33.820 --> 01:10:36.360 by using multiplexer that didn't happen if it were just in the terminal. 01:10:36.520 --> 01:10:37.760 At that time, I didn't know much about it. 01:10:37.880 --> 01:10:38.600 I didn't really understand. 01:10:39.060 --> 01:10:43.620 But that alone was enough for me to form the opinion that this 01:10:43.620 --> 01:10:44.660 is possibly not a good idea. 01:10:44.820 --> 01:10:47.000 So, I avoided them in my own personal workflows. 01:10:48.460 --> 01:10:53.140 And then when it came time for me to make my own terminal, I tried 01:10:53.140 --> 01:10:56.240 to replicate the good parts of the multiplexers, the sessions, 01:10:56.820 --> 01:11:02.060 the control, the flexibility, as much as possible within the terminal itself. 01:11:02.480 --> 01:11:06.940 Because in my opinion, the terminal is the right level of abstraction 01:11:06.940 --> 01:11:09.780 for this, the right place for window management and interacting 01:11:09.780 --> 01:11:13.760 with the user and keyboard shortcuts, mouse actions, and so on. 01:11:14.020 --> 01:11:15.040 It should be managed by the terminal. 01:11:15.180 --> 01:11:19.940 The terminal is better positioned to do that than a terminal multiplexer. 01:11:20.560 --> 01:11:21.820 So, it made sense to me. 01:11:21.820 --> 01:11:24.520 Yeah, makes sense. Yeah. 01:11:24.980 --> 01:11:28.220 Now, moving on to another topic that I have here, we've been here 01:11:28.220 --> 01:11:29.060 for a long time. 01:11:29.220 --> 01:11:30.780 How much time do you have left? 01:11:31.820 --> 01:11:35.920 I would say about 15-20 minutes. Okay. Okay. Okay. Awesome. 01:11:36.560 --> 01:11:41.440 I noticed the cursor animations in Kitty, they were released, 01:11:41.520 --> 01:11:42.720 I don't know, a few months ago. 01:11:42.720 --> 01:11:44.640 Were they inspired by Neovide? 01:11:44.920 --> 01:11:45.940 Have you heard about Neovide? 01:11:46.520 --> 01:11:47.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 01:11:47.000 --> 01:11:49.720 So, I didn't actually make those features. 01:11:49.720 --> 01:11:51.020 It was contributed by a user. 01:11:51.020 --> 01:11:54.140 Let me see if I can bring it up. 01:11:55.280 --> 01:11:56.180 Let me see. 01:11:57.200 --> 01:11:58.100 Yes, here we go. 01:11:58.100 --> 01:11:59.220 Here's the pull request. 01:12:00.320 --> 01:12:02.980 So, by a user called jinhwanlazy 01:12:03.360 --> 01:12:05.180 I don't know if I'm pronouncing that right. 01:12:05.540 --> 01:12:11.880 So, he's made this pull request, add cursor trail feature to enhance the serviceability. 01:12:11.960 --> 01:12:13.920 So, it was completely out of the blue for me. 01:12:14.360 --> 01:12:15.860 I mean, I was not thinking about it. 01:12:15.860 --> 01:12:16.640 It was not on my radar. 01:12:16.760 --> 01:12:19.380 Some user came and suggested this feature. 01:12:20.260 --> 01:12:23.500 And so, you know, it was quite a large feature. 01:12:24.120 --> 01:12:26.000 We worked together and we implemented it. 01:12:26.360 --> 01:12:27.100 Mostly, he did it. 01:12:27.140 --> 01:12:28.560 I just provided some feedback. 01:12:29.860 --> 01:12:31.760 And that's how it came out. 01:12:31.860 --> 01:12:33.440 And yes, he knew about Neovide. 01:12:33.680 --> 01:12:36.940 I think he was inspired by that. 01:12:36.980 --> 01:12:40.660 I think if you search this page, you'll find Neovide somewhere. 01:12:42.300 --> 01:12:43.180 There you go. 01:12:43.220 --> 01:12:47.900 You can see right in the pull request, the very first post that's mentioned. 01:12:48.840 --> 01:12:55.400 So, yeah, it was inspired by Neovide, but not by me. Okay, okay. 01:12:55.400 --> 01:12:59.140 Now, I just want to know about your setup a little bit more since 01:12:59.140 --> 01:13:00.300 we don't have a lot of time. 01:13:00.400 --> 01:13:03.000 And I just want to have a few minutes for questions as well. 01:13:03.680 --> 01:13:06.400 Your main IDE, which one is it? 01:13:07.480 --> 01:13:09.640 It used to be vim, now it's neovim. 01:13:10.540 --> 01:13:11.290 So, you can see this is a kitty file inside neovim 01:13:14.400 --> 01:13:17.280 I mean, it used to be vim for a very long time. 01:13:17.940 --> 01:13:22.660 But once Bram passed away, and there was some LSP. 01:13:23.000 --> 01:13:25.920 integration in Neovim and so on, I switched to Neovim. 01:13:26.320 --> 01:13:29.400 In fact, there's a very nice plugin for Neovim 01:13:29.660 --> 01:13:33.380 kitty-scrollback.nvim plugin, which I'm glad to be using. 01:13:33.920 --> 01:13:37.840 Which allows you to browse this scrollback in kitty inside Neovim 01:13:37.840 --> 01:13:41.520 very conveniently and copy it to the keyboard, edit it, whatever. 01:13:42.880 --> 01:13:51.960 So, when you're in a terminal, you get a lot of history, right? 01:13:52.520 --> 01:13:56.680 So, in kitty, if you press CTRL-SHIFT-H, this opens by default in less. 01:13:56.800 --> 01:13:58.680 So, you can search it and whatever. 01:14:00.760 --> 01:14:03.140 So, less is the default, but it's a solid UI. 01:14:03.180 --> 01:14:04.400 Also, you can use your own program. 01:14:05.160 --> 01:14:06.760 And so, this allows you to use Neovim. 01:14:07.060 --> 01:14:10.680 This plugin I'm talking about allows you to use Neovim as less 01:14:10.680 --> 01:14:12.000 to browse the scrollback. 01:14:12.440 --> 01:14:15.420 And so, kitty also has a feature that you can see the last command 01:14:15.420 --> 01:14:17.200 output, for example. 01:14:18.720 --> 01:14:22.160 If I press CTRL-SHIFT-G, the last command's output opens in less. 01:14:24.540 --> 01:14:27.840 So, again, you can use Neovim instead and do something with it. 01:14:31.700 --> 01:14:34.280 So, to answer your question, sorry, I got sidetracked 01:14:35.140 --> 01:14:37.020 I use Neovim as my IDE. 01:14:37.280 --> 01:14:43.720 So, I program primarily in Python, C, Go, my own language called 01:14:43.720 --> 01:14:48.820 rapydscript-ng, and a little bit of Cocoa 01:14:48.980 --> 01:14:51.760 I don't know how to pronounce that. Apple's Objective-C. 01:14:57.140 --> 01:14:59.840 Neovim is my common IDE for all those languages. 01:15:02.280 --> 01:15:03.440 I develop both Calibre and Kitty. 01:15:03.920 --> 01:15:10.420 In fact, I've always used vim until I switched to neovim 01:15:10.420 --> 01:15:16.960 So, it feels like you're trying to bring the Emacs experience 01:15:16.960 --> 01:15:18.380 into the terminal. 01:15:18.700 --> 01:15:23.160 Like, you're trying to make the terminal like your operating system. 01:15:23.520 --> 01:15:25.260 Notifications, browser, everything. 01:15:25.360 --> 01:15:27.980 What's your thoughts on Emacs? 01:15:30.380 --> 01:15:31.620 I'm fine with Emacs. 01:15:31.780 --> 01:15:34.200 I just prefer the modal editing experience, which is why I went 01:15:34.200 --> 01:15:35.400 with vim 01:15:36.820 --> 01:15:44.540 In fact, way back, the modal editing and the verbs, the motion 01:15:44.540 --> 01:15:46.340 verbs and so on, they just clicked with my brain, so I went to vim 01:15:47.940 --> 01:15:51.760 Once you learn something, then, you know, I've been happy with Neovim. 01:15:52.560 --> 01:15:58.220 And talking about making everything a terminal, I pressed the 01:15:58.220 --> 01:15:59.460 print screen key on my keyboard. 01:15:59.640 --> 01:16:02.720 I knew that a screenshot tool, which is actually a kitty window. 01:16:03.480 --> 01:16:08.980 And so, I'm just showing you how much I rely on Kitty in my own workflows. 01:16:09.960 --> 01:16:14.540 Why not just come up with the kitty operating system and we just 01:16:14.540 --> 01:16:17.320 avoid the operating system? 01:16:17.600 --> 01:16:18.620 Someday, someday, someday. 01:16:19.120 --> 01:16:23.540 After I write that long-promised multiplexer that includes remote persistence. 01:16:25.360 --> 01:16:29.120 And what's your operating system of choice, by the way? 01:16:29.200 --> 01:16:29.880 Is it Linux? 01:16:29.920 --> 01:16:31.660 I saw macOS somewhere in there. 01:16:32.220 --> 01:16:34.660 Yeah, no, my operating system choice is Linux. 01:16:34.680 --> 01:16:37.860 It has been since I was 13 or something. 01:16:38.600 --> 01:16:39.380 Ages and ages ago. 01:16:40.640 --> 01:16:43.840 So, I have macOS and Windows machines because I write software 01:16:43.840 --> 01:16:45.200 for both platforms as well. 01:16:46.440 --> 01:16:50.300 But my own OS of choice is Linux. 01:16:50.780 --> 01:16:55.100 So, like, Calibre, for example, is built for Linux, Windows and macOS. 01:16:55.820 --> 01:17:00.520 So, the macOS and Windows build has happened in QEMU with virtual machines. 01:17:01.420 --> 01:17:03.940 Which may not be strictly needed, I'm not sure. 01:17:06.500 --> 01:17:10.500 So, nowadays people do that, you know, using GitHub Actions or whatever. 01:17:10.500 --> 01:17:12.180 But I mean, Calibre is 20 plus years old. 01:17:12.320 --> 01:17:13.240 There was no GitHub back then. 01:17:14.480 --> 01:17:15.720 CI pipelines and stuff. 01:17:15.820 --> 01:17:16.460 So, I had to make my own. 01:17:16.940 --> 01:17:18.180 So, I used QEMU. 01:17:18.680 --> 01:17:21.080 Originally, I used VMware and then I switched to QEMU. 01:17:21.760 --> 01:17:24.380 So, now it's just, I just type in one command and it builds up 01:17:24.380 --> 01:17:27.700 in all three platforms. Automatically. 01:17:29.200 --> 01:17:30.620 Anyway, sorry, go on. 01:17:31.420 --> 01:17:35.400 I know, because I was going through the Calibre's usage statistics 01:17:35.400 --> 01:17:38.540 and I noticed that most of the users are Windows. 01:17:38.760 --> 01:17:39.900 And I was like, why? 01:17:40.160 --> 01:17:43.680 But you already explained that because most of the user base is 01:17:43.680 --> 01:17:46.060 old people (sorry old reading folks, no disprespect meant, at least you guys support the man) and they are definitely on Windows. 01:17:46.200 --> 01:17:49.740 I assume that's why, right? So, yeah. 01:17:49.740 --> 01:17:51.620 I mean, most of everybody is on Windows. 01:17:51.620 --> 01:17:57.720 Globally, Windows has an 80% market share of desktop and laptop computers. 01:17:59.820 --> 01:18:01.300 Yeah, most of the users. 01:18:01.420 --> 01:18:06.540 I mean, the Calibre usage reflects mostly that Calibres 01:18:06.540 --> 01:18:11.680 are not techie, not in the techies particularly. 01:18:12.500 --> 01:18:14.510 So, non-techie people use it. 01:18:14.510 --> 01:18:20.370 And those are, they probably follow the distribution of OSs that 01:18:20.370 --> 01:18:22.230 the general market does. 01:18:24.650 --> 01:18:31.010 So, people often ask me, how do you make a successful open source product? 01:18:31.610 --> 01:18:33.390 So, I often say you have to go where the users are. 01:18:33.510 --> 01:18:40.590 So, when I made the Windows and macOS ports of the orignal libprs500, because most people 01:18:40.590 --> 01:18:43.530 use those operating systems, so if I wanted to be successful, 01:18:43.790 --> 01:18:47.370 I had to go where the users are. 01:18:47.490 --> 01:18:51.130 So, kitty, for example, I don't care about it being that successful 01:18:51.130 --> 01:18:53.890 because it's really my workflow tool (linkarzu note: and even if it was, which it is, these open source MFs don't like donating) 01:18:54.230 --> 01:18:55.330 As you can see, I use it for everything. 01:18:55.650 --> 01:18:59.750 So, I only bother with macOS because macOS is close to Linux, 01:18:59.830 --> 01:19:00.930 so it's not that much effort. 01:19:01.670 --> 01:19:05.830 People keep requesting that I port kitty to Windows, but the amount 01:19:05.830 --> 01:19:06.530 of effort is much larger. 01:19:06.770 --> 01:19:08.290 So, I just don't bother. 01:19:09.510 --> 01:19:11.610 There's WSL on Windows anyway. 01:19:11.610 --> 01:19:16.810 So, they just let them run WSL and deal with it (sorry for the 3 windows users that use kitty LMAO). All right. 01:19:17.530 --> 01:19:21.770 So, due to time, I'm not going to continue with any other questions. 01:19:22.390 --> 01:19:25.190 Is there anything you want to share with the audience? 01:19:25.430 --> 01:19:27.470 Like, how can people support you? 01:19:27.870 --> 01:19:30.530 Is this through Calibre or how can they? 01:19:30.630 --> 01:19:32.770 Because you live off of open source, right? 01:19:32.870 --> 01:19:34.490 I live off of open source, yes. 01:19:34.490 --> 01:19:35.630 So, you can donate. 01:19:35.710 --> 01:19:38.430 I know I have a Calibre website or GitHub sponsors. 01:19:38.430 --> 01:19:39.670 Let me show you. 01:19:42.330 --> 01:19:48.850 So, if you go to either Kitty or Calibre's GitHub page, there's 01:19:48.850 --> 01:19:49.850 a Sponsors button. 01:19:52.450 --> 01:19:54.650 So, there's a Sponsors Project button. 01:19:54.690 --> 01:19:55.790 So, you can do it via GitHub. 01:19:55.890 --> 01:19:59.510 You can do it via Patreon, LibrePay, and so on. 01:19:59.610 --> 01:20:01.190 So, you know, whatever floats your boat. 01:20:01.490 --> 01:20:04.330 And that's how you can keep me financially going. 01:20:04.810 --> 01:20:10.870 And the other ways of supporting me is by contributing to the projects. 01:20:11.030 --> 01:20:12.290 Something that stretches your own reach. 01:20:12.810 --> 01:20:13.950 It could be a translation. 01:20:14.270 --> 01:20:15.050 It could be documentation. 01:20:15.330 --> 01:20:16.010 It could be code. 01:20:16.650 --> 01:20:18.150 It could be issue triage. 01:20:18.770 --> 01:20:22.510 So, for example, in Calibre, there's a huge community. 01:20:22.670 --> 01:20:23.330 I have millions of users. 01:20:23.510 --> 01:20:26.310 There's no way I can do that support myself. 01:20:26.530 --> 01:20:29.630 So, there's a Calibre forum on this website called mobileread.com, 01:20:29.690 --> 01:20:31.290 which I had mentioned in the introduction. 01:20:31.910 --> 01:20:35.470 So, there are a lot of veteran Calibre users who would like to 01:20:35.470 --> 01:20:39.390 answer user posts so that I don't have to answer everything myself. 01:20:39.870 --> 01:20:43.550 But if you look, for example, in all of the URLs here in this 01:20:43.550 --> 01:20:49.870 forum, you can see that I have one of the karma points for people's questions. 01:20:50.070 --> 01:20:53.370 So, you can see how many questions I've answered. 01:20:54.390 --> 01:20:58.430 So, you know, if you want to sort of help out with these projects, 01:20:58.570 --> 01:21:02.050 you can, if you're an experienced user, you can join one of these 01:21:02.050 --> 01:21:03.030 forums and answer questions. 01:21:03.130 --> 01:21:07.230 I mean, there are Reddit forums, sort of Calibre, and the GitHub issue triage. 01:21:08.050 --> 01:21:11.910 So, that's one way you can contribute if you're not technically 01:21:11.910 --> 01:21:14.060 inclined in an app for whatever reason. 01:21:15.430 --> 01:21:18.770 So, there are lots of ways of contributing. 01:21:18.890 --> 01:21:21.690 So, like Calibre, for example, I mentioned, it has a fetching feature. 01:21:21.870 --> 01:21:25.370 So, you can download things like, you know, New York Times or 01:21:25.370 --> 01:21:27.950 Google News or whatever. 01:21:28.690 --> 01:21:32.110 So, those are based on Python scripts to scrape those websites. 01:21:32.110 --> 01:21:34.050 And so, those are maintained by users. 01:21:35.290 --> 01:21:39.370 I tried to pitch in, but I mean, I obviously have other things to do. 01:21:40.170 --> 01:21:42.330 So, you know, those are mostly maintained by users. 01:21:42.510 --> 01:21:43.670 And so, you can contribute to that. 01:21:43.730 --> 01:21:46.190 I mean, that's a relatively contained simple problem. 01:21:50.450 --> 01:21:54.930 Yeah, the ways to contribute to open source are endless. Okay, yeah. 01:21:54.930 --> 01:21:56.510 A lot of work, man. I see. 01:21:56.990 --> 01:21:59.670 Those are huge projects, and you have plans. 01:21:59.670 --> 01:22:03.110 I don't know, how you have the time, you know, to work and all that stuff? 01:22:03.690 --> 01:22:05.070 Yeah, I have. I work all the time. 01:22:05.670 --> 01:22:09.530 Like I said, I love to program. That's good. 01:22:10.270 --> 01:22:12.910 Now, one last question, just to wrap it up. 01:22:13.330 --> 01:22:15.770 And can you live off of open source? 01:22:15.950 --> 01:22:18.210 Then you're the living proof that you can, right? 01:22:18.210 --> 01:22:23.750 So, you mind just sharing a small, I don't know, whatever you 01:22:23.750 --> 01:22:24.590 want to share with people. 01:22:25.430 --> 01:22:31.130 So, I've been living off open source since I graduated from grad 01:22:31.130 --> 01:22:37.810 school, which was about 15 years, I'd say. 01:22:39.510 --> 01:22:41.310 And so, it's going strong. 01:22:42.330 --> 01:22:44.470 I'm quite confident that I'll be here for 15 years more. 01:22:46.110 --> 01:22:50.170 So, I just want to say that it's really possible to make a life 01:22:50.170 --> 01:22:51.370 writing open source software. 01:22:52.060 --> 01:22:54.730 Some key things that you should keep in mind is go where the users 01:22:54.730 --> 01:22:56.970 are, and solve real problems. 01:22:57.270 --> 01:22:59.730 Solve your own problems, especially, but your problems. 01:23:01.190 --> 01:23:04.370 Don't try to change the world or whatever, but just find some 01:23:04.370 --> 01:23:07.930 actual problem that you have, or that people have, and solve it. 01:23:08.510 --> 01:23:12.850 And be dedicated, be honest, work hard, and be lucky. 01:23:13.750 --> 01:23:14.370 That plays a part. 01:23:15.010 --> 01:23:17.370 Calibre was so successful because I happened to be in the right 01:23:17.370 --> 01:23:18.070 place at the right time. 01:23:18.170 --> 01:23:20.090 That was a big part of the success. 01:23:22.690 --> 01:23:23.950 So, you can try. 01:23:25.290 --> 01:23:27.510 It's a nice lifestyle if you can make it work. 01:23:28.210 --> 01:23:32.210 At the end of the day, when I look back at my life and I see how 01:23:32.210 --> 01:23:35.250 I've done these things, I feel proud that I've made the world 01:23:35.250 --> 01:23:36.150 a slightly better place. 01:23:36.570 --> 01:23:38.330 So, that's a good feeling. 01:23:39.370 --> 01:23:41.030 And it's a lifestyle where you're the own boss. 01:23:41.570 --> 01:23:46.290 I work very hard, I spend a large fraction of my day just working. 01:23:46.830 --> 01:23:50.030 But it's at my own convenience, at my own pace. 01:23:50.030 --> 01:23:51.970 I can take off for a holiday anytime I want. 01:23:52.000 --> 01:23:57.440 So that I get to spend time with my kids, with my wife, my family, friends. 01:23:57.900 --> 01:24:02.440 So you know, though I do work hard, I also have the flexibility 01:24:02.440 --> 01:24:03.820 to live a decent life. 01:24:05.120 --> 01:24:05.880 That's what's important. 01:24:05.880 --> 01:24:08.080 And you don't want to have another dictator. 01:24:08.360 --> 01:24:11.140 You want to be the only one, right? Yeah. 01:24:11.440 --> 01:24:17.820 You know, I'm the kind of person that likes to march to my own beat, so. Yeah, definitely. 01:24:18.540 --> 01:24:19.660 That's a huge benefit. 01:24:25.160 --> 01:24:25.840 Yeah source rules. 01:24:26.040 --> 01:24:27.660 I mean, go for it if you can. 01:24:28.640 --> 01:24:33.640 You leave a huge legacy, man, because it's huge tools, huge communities 01:24:33.640 --> 01:24:35.500 that you're leaving or that you're creating. 01:24:35.960 --> 01:24:37.540 So really appreciate it. 01:24:37.540 --> 01:24:40.280 You know, even more appreciate your time being here. 01:24:40.360 --> 01:24:41.760 I'm going to leave the links. 01:24:41.980 --> 01:24:45.200 Well, everyone knows your tools, so I don't need even to leave 01:24:45.200 --> 01:24:47.300 the links, but I'm going to leave them in the video description. 01:24:47.300 --> 01:24:50.680 So if you want to share some links with me, just share them, I'll put 01:24:50.680 --> 01:24:51.400 them in the video. 01:24:51.800 --> 01:24:54.160 Really appreciate your time, Covid. 01:24:54.480 --> 01:24:57.780 I hope to see you again whenever you want to share something about kitty. 01:24:57.960 --> 01:25:01.280 Hey, there's all these new features that I have about kitty and I 01:25:01.280 --> 01:25:02.960 want somewhere to share them. 01:25:03.120 --> 01:25:06.380 You can come to my channel and we can do this screen sharing thing, 01:25:06.380 --> 01:25:09.780 talking and all that stuff and you can share them with everyone. 01:25:10.120 --> 01:25:15.500 When sessions arrive, please let me know and, you know, share them here. 01:25:15.500 --> 01:25:18.860 Yeah, no, I don't have any links right now. 01:25:18.940 --> 01:25:23.400 I just say, you know, find a program, doesn't have to be Calibre or kitty. 01:25:23.460 --> 01:25:26.820 Find a program that, you know, you use and that you have good 01:25:26.820 --> 01:25:28.780 ideas to include and go into it. 01:25:31.080 --> 01:25:34.700 I don't want you to come and necessarily work in Calibre or kitty 01:25:34.700 --> 01:25:37.220 and go do some open source something. 01:25:37.900 --> 01:25:40.440 I'm not going to post any links to any of my projects, go out 01:25:40.440 --> 01:25:44.080 there, find your own, whatever makes you happy. 01:25:46.980 --> 01:25:48.660 All right, kovid, really appreciate it. 01:25:49.260 --> 01:25:52.140 We'll see you till next time then. All right. Yeah.