That means next week I'm going to have time to
do a Let's Research Mama, which I'm very excited
about. I think we should get into wind. You want
to do wind? I want to do wind. I would really
like to have a grasp on wind. We can do wind.
I think a concept, this doesn't have to be in
the actual pod, but a concept would be you do
a Let's Research and then try to explain it to
me and then vice versa. Okay. You know what I
mean? So like next time I would do want to try
to explain it to you from my research. OK. Knowing
that we both didn't understand it to start. I
love that. Yeah, I think we should do that. OK.
Hi, I'm Travis, and this is Bestie Approved.
And obviously I am not here with Emma because
she's still out on her maternity break. but uh
i do have a fun podcast friend his name is jeff
zurich uh he's a literal scientist he is the
host of whimsical wavelengths which is a science
podcast and um he is someone who's here to help
with a pay point who's been or that's been going
on in mine and emma's lives for our entire lives
um he's here to help us understand wind so um
jeff and uh tell us a little bit about yourself
um sure so uh here's your life story in 30 seconds
go um i guess i was a fun loving kid in the fact
that i grew up wanting to be essentially a scientist
i was one of those weird kids that you know by
grade four i'm like i want to be a volcanologist
and was too stubborn to give up on the dream
so i went and got a degree in geophysics and
then volunteered at the hawaiian volcano observatory
my grades were not super stellar they were good
enough but i used that volunteer stint in hbo
hawaiian volcano observatory looking at kilauea
and poking lava with sticks to get myself into
grad school where i got to go back to hawaii
i studied hawaii masaya and nicaragua and some
of the cascades and then i couldn't quite manage
to parlay that into a professorship so now i
work in industry and solve complex problems looking
for shiny things under the ground There's the
30 seconds. Go. I'll take it. I love that. That's
awesome. I didn't mention the podcast, though,
which is something that came about as I got a
desk job instead of traveling Canada into the
most remote places, hundreds of kilometers away
from the nearest road and pressing buttons to
find that shiny things. Now I have the free time
to be a bit more of an academic and I started
a podcast on the side. So it is certainly not
my day job, but it is a passion project. that's
awesome your podcast is actually super fun i
uh so for context to your listener we uh met
because of the podcast hosting service that we
both work through um rss .com and i don't think
we're sponsored but we please sponsor us um but
i i like i took a listen to it and i was like
oh this guy's fine like he's like he's interesting
and like you're engaging and like so I am glad
that you host the podcast because I think you
do put a fun little spin on things that can seem
a little dry and a little not engaging. My favorite
episode was the one you had about Nikola Tesla.
I just had an absolute time listening to that
one. For sure, check out Jeff's podcast. It's
so good. I'll put it in the show notes. Thanks.
Of course. Before we kick it off, this is something
we ask everyone. What is the last song you listened
to? Yeah, it is Control -Alt -Delete with Ren
and the Skinner Brothers. Yeah, I had to look
up the second part because Ren is what everyone
actually knows. Or if they listen to that type
of music. Never heard of it, but I'll put it
on the list. My last song was Fast by Demi Lovato.
So she's really making a comeback and I'm so
excited for her. I knew that whatever song I
was going to bring to the table was going to
be very different than everything else. I should
really share. I'm such a nerd that if I had a
theme song, it'd be Weird Al's White and Nerdy.
That's great. Yeah, exactly. I'll take it. Cool.
Let's let's just kick it off. I'll tell you what
So I wrote a little I like I actually took this
very seriously. So my idea for this episode was
I so I've And then I have talked a lot about
this in our personal lives and we've touched
on it in the show But like something that like
has genuinely perplexed us for our entire existence
is how does wind work? Where does it come from?
Like it sounds so stupid because I feel like
it's something you learn in like fifth or sixth
grade by We've genuinely never just been able
to grasp that concept and I like when I saw that
like we were in this same chat with With Jeff
I was like he's a scientist like he's he's going
to he's gonna get this and he's gonna he's gonna
figure it out So I actually said let let me see
if I can like get a grasp on it I'm gonna try
and explain it and then You tell me how much
I got right how much I got wrong so i'm just
gonna kick it off um so we decided to do a little
uh mama let's research and this man of science
is gonna let us know if we breeze through this
or if we're just blowing hot air um okay so as
i was gonna mention just like you guys do the
whole uh song bit at the beginning my podcast
we do a science joke at the end so every time
i interview someone they have to come with a
science joke i let them know ahead of time i
do not surprise them but um yeah the groanier
the joke the better so i fully approve love it
okay so we thought we or i i say we i wrote this
when emma was still like we weren't sure when
the baby was coming like we weren't sure if it
was coming this early or not so every time i
say we it's it's she did help with this um but
that would be a good idea to start with some
background information about where we started
and what we were working with as far as foundational
knowledge so I know that as a child with ADHD,
little Travis didn't have it in him the day that
we covered wind in science class at Triton Elementary
School. So I know that I wrote this section before
we started the research, and I thought it'd be
a good idea to open up the Apple Weather app.
And it says wind is currently six miles per hour
from the north. I'm sorry, from the east northeast.
And today, wind speeds are one to six miles per
hour with gusts up to 11 miles per hour. A couple
things. How do they know? like are they just
like throwing something into the wind and then
seeing how fast it goes like when it flies by
them um when does it go from being wind to being
a gust how do they know wind speed is basically
going to double at some point in the day and
east northeast is wildly specific because i didn't
know that we got deeper than northeast or southwest
but that's cool um okay uh and this brings up
an important question for me where does wind
start like if it's coming from the east northeast
where is it coming from and when you get to that
starting point is there like a point where you
cross like a wind wall where there's no wind
on the other side of it so like would it not
theoretically be pulling wind in and then like
creating like a vacuum effect um Dear listener,
please know that I've spent hours of my life
being screamed at by my papa and my uncle Jeff
because I've gone my entire life believing that
wind was the direct result of Earth's rotation
speeding up a little faster than normal. And
that's my background knowledge about wind. So
I did a little bit of a deep dive. So these were
the questions. that were sparked by the weather
app. And like these felt like the right questions
to answer. So what is wind? What causes it? And
where does it come from? So wind is just the
perceptible movement of air in a direction parallel
to the ground considered as a general feature
of the atmosphere. And that told me absolutely
nothing. So I went to watch a Bill Nye the Science
Guy video. And he explained that wind is caused
by heat from the sun and the rotation of the
earth. I might have been onto something with
my original theory about like the rotation of
the earth is what I originally thought. The sun
heats up the land. The heat rises as a result
of the land being like hot. So the heat obviously
rises and that heat also goes up into the air.
And then this is where Bill and I kind of lost
me because the air molecules still weigh the
same regardless of how close they are to each
other. So that let's just stop right there. Because
this is, I guess, a misconception. So what he's
saying is density. Oh. So in other words, you're
creating... He did say it, but he said it without
using the word density. I actually went and watched
that video this morning and I was like, I see
why Travis has this in his notes. He's not combining
the fact to say that the wind is taking up more
volume so it weighs less into the understanding
that you're actually decreasing the density of
that volume of air. So it does weigh less. The
individual molecules do not really change. And
now, again... We'll come back to this as we get
further on. But as science gets more and more
into the weeds, you can get things more and more
complex. But you can usually boil the simple
things down to something simple. So as you increase
the energy of something, you actually increase
its mass, sort of. Got it. E equals mc squared.
But again, you're going... deep into other things
right but broadly speaking you heat air up the
air molecules move apart from one another they
become less dense and that volume of air then
begins to rise okay okay that that helps that
okay that helps so then after that the warmer
air molecules get pushed up by the cold air and
then i don't really know where the cold air is
coming from but like now that i think about it
i guess it's just already there because it's
like colder Like higher up, I guess. In his diagram,
he put a block of ice on one side and light shining
on quote unquote land on the other side of his
aquarium. Sure. He was making the idea that the
poles, i .e. the North and South Pole, don't
get as much sunlight. So that's like our block
of ice. That's an oversimplification, but that's
what he's doing in that regard. I'll take that.
like i'll take the oversimplification because
like that actually kind of like clicks yeah i
mean it is true like it i'm not saying what he
did is false it's not it's true it's just when
you're trying to look at wind patterns and weather
on a global phenomenon you're kind of like yes
that is there but fair um and then oh okay so
then he puts like a uh like he puts like what
you're talking about the smoke inside of like
an acrylic box and then like the smoke starts
making a loop because like it's it's going around
the heated so it's it's heated as it as it's
rising or so it's heated it rises and then it
goes past the cold air and the or the the uh
ice block and then it cools down and then it
comes back down because it's heavier and then
like that's so it's kind of making a circle and
then like the circle is where it started to click
so um i guess i didn't know what you're looking
for connection yeah convection oh i was like
no i am making the connection obviously um and
then so i guess i didn't understand that the
cooler air like is coming up from above the warmer
air so it's uh displacing the warm air and that's
and it's heading towards the ground so like i
think it's just like pushing it out of the way
basically is that kind of yeah kind of okay it
does work like that but that's not really yeah
that again starts to get into some of the more
nuance instead of the the basic underlying what
we're trying to get at here gorgeous okay well
i promise i'm almost at the end of mine so like
you are no worries and i expect you to stop me
and ask questions and stuff as we try to walk
through certain things perfect because i'm like
because i'm like saying this out loud now and
i'm like oh i thought i had a grasp on this and
i'm like wait this is why i don't understand
but you do you do what you've written does the
basics right the super basics and we can walk
through and i think With my skills that are hopefully
too terrible, we'll break it down even further
so you'll completely understand it and you can
start shouting at the weatherman like some people
shout at referees. Gorgeous. So then Bill Nye
goes on to explain that the earth is spinning.
So the wind is spinning with the earth and that's
why wind comes from all different directions
because if the earth wasn't spinning, wind would
just go north to south. And then the spinning
is actually... didn't fully understand what he
was talking about so like i googled this and
then the spinning situation is actually called
the coriolis effect and that's why wind is coming
from different directions um so long and short
of it the sun creates areas of high pressure
which is cold dense air and then low pressure
which is hot lighter um the wind is the cold
dense air rushing aggressively to displace and
push the hot light air out of the way and this
is all happening while the earth is spinning
so it's curving the wind's path yep okay generally
like as like a first order yeah that's correct
awesome and then you tell me where i uh either
went wrong or went right and then you also told
me that this either this has an impact on climate
change or climate change has an impact on this
i don't remember which but i would like again
i was i was saying to you that i could make a
link there um but again like a lot of things
um science is nuanced it's it's very rarely yes
no unless it's like does gravity exist um fair
so We're going to start with the wind thing and
we'll come back to that because I think we need
to build a little bit more before I can really
talk about climate change in this regard and
why wind as a vehicle to talk about it is difficult.
So first off, when we talk about wind, it's differences
in pressure. So temperature is what creates most
of the time the difference. Differences in pressure.
So remember what we were just saying that as
you heat air up, the molecules move further apart,
the density decreases and it starts to rise.
So you can imagine as air rises, what does that
do to the pressure? Wait, what does it do? What
is pressure? Pressure is like things that confine
you, right? If you go underneath the water into
a deeper, deeper into the pool, the pressure
gets higher and higher. Okay. Okay. So it's going
to like expand as it goes up. Yeah. So what does
that do to pressure as it expands? Decreases
it. Exactly. So it decreases pressure. So you're
almost creating a low pressure system. So you
can think of it a bit like. uh if we want to
use a physics term potential energy everything
wants to be at the lowest potential energy so
all of a sudden you have cold air nearby and
you have low pressure that cold air it's kind
of like a bowl rolling down a hill it wants to
go to the low pressure because it's heavier it's
denser it flows towards the low pressure to the
lowest potential energy okay so okay pressure
differences are what causes wind the bigger the
pressure difference the bigger or the stronger
the wind. Okay. So that's where we need to start.
And I think the better example, I'm going to
try to use Bill Nye, the science guy's example,
but put it into words. So we're instead visualizing
something that we can all imagine as opposed
to an acrylic box in a particular setup. Because
I think this is something that everyone listening
or viewing, if we are recording the video on
this, is going to be able to think about in their
head as opposed to our ham -fisted attempts at
explaining somebody else's experiment uh so we've
all been beside a lake or an ocean and on particularly
i would say summer days hot summer days so usually
that means we have something like a high pressure
system the wind is relatively calm there's no
big pressure gradients anywhere so what in the
middle of the day where do you think the wind
is coming from probably off of the lake because
the lake would be a little bit cooler right that
is a hundred percent correct oh okay use that
and maybe given my explanation that i just gave
you can explain why so the pressure is going
to be higher at the lake because it is cooler
So you've got air molecules who are looking to
get away from the... But meanwhile, it's a sunny
day. What's happening on land? It's much hotter
on land. Which? So which is much less dense because
there's much less pressure because it's hotter.
Right. So it's less dense, lower pressure, and
the dense, higher pressure air flows from the
lake or the ocean towards land. Right. Now, at
night, what happens? The land is going to get
cooler. So it's probably going to go in the opposite
direction. That's right. Because land, the water
is going to stay warmer. It takes a lot of effort
to cool that water. So it's going to stay warmer
than the land in the middle of the night. And
so the warm, warmer air will be over the water
and the land will be cooler. And so you'll get
a reverse. Okay. Okay. And this all assumes that
you're in a high -pressure situation, so that
way these light breezes can actually switch direction,
right? Sure. Now, just to keep this in mind,
we're talking about something that's very local.
it has nothing to do with the corealis effect
because it's on such a local scale so when we
start talking about corealis effect and earth
spinning it absolutely has an effect there's
no question but we're really starting to talk
large scale versus small scale and this example
just kind of shows that wind can be affected
by topography by water bodies and a number of
different you even mentioned altitude so there's
lots of examples of these sorts of things being
created on a local scale okay so hopefully that
all made sense no totally it absolutely did yeah
no totally like this is actually great okay well
we need to then before we get to the climate
change thing is talk about something else that
is a little bit more nuanced okay because it's
not simply just heating and cooling okay We're
going to talk about hurricanes. Okay. Do you
have any idea what's required for a hurricane?
Let's start there. Wind and water? Well, water
is yes. Wind is something that kind of builds,
that becomes part of the hurricane. But why do
hurricanes form? Got into my head. I couldn't
tell you. I bet you. I bet you I can pull something
out of you. So when do hurricanes happen in the
Atlantic Basin? It's like a... early spring situation
right that's kind it's kind of late spring is
the start so and it goes through oh november
1st if i remember correctly don't quote me on
that it might be december 1st but i think it's
november 1st so what it's over the summer okay
so where the land is heating up so you've got
significant amounts of water that are like in
air that are being pulled from The ocean, which
is no. Okay. No, the big thing you need is warm
water. Okay. You have to have water. That's I'm
sorry. I don't speak in Fahrenheit. I'm above
26 degrees Celsius. So what is that? Like 80,
80, 80 ish. Yeah. Fahrenheit. So you need warm
water. Okay. One of the things that is lighter
than the air at the bottom is water vapor. So
as you evaporate water, it's less dense than
air and it begins to rise. Now you have a pressure
differential because all of a sudden our air
is going up. Other air has to come in. As that
air goes up, it's water vapor. It starts to condense
as it reaches the higher part of the atmosphere.
That process is also a thermal process. When
things condense, it releases energy. Okay. As
it releases energy, it heats the atmosphere.
That atmosphere up top then becomes less dense.
So it's low pressure because it's condensing.
So it sucks up more water or more water vapor
from the bottom. Got it. Okay. It's like an engine,
if you want to think of it that way. Because
you need the warm water, the warm, hot, humid
water to be able to create this engine of constantly
bringing... the water vapor up into the atmosphere.
Okay. So without that, you're never going to
get a hurricane. And now you have this huge pressure
differential, right? You keep building and building
and building and building and building and building,
and you have this huge low right in the center,
centered over the eyewall. And then the wind
field is just the difference in pressure from
there to the outside of the storm. Okay. Okay.
Because you need differences in pressure. So
if you ever look on a weather map and look at
these hurricanes, they're just like these bullseyes,
right? And even if you look at the pressure,
specifically the pressure, and if you've ever
looked at a topographic map, although I have
a feeling that we're almost... too old my kids
are like what's the topographic map but um the
topographic map i know i know you do but i mean
there's like at some point it all becomes um
google satellite imagery right fair yeah no one
knows how to use the topographic map anymore
at any rate so if you look at the contours of
the pressure you're just going to see this deepening
well um around these hurricanes and it's that
pressure difference from the outside to the inside
that's just creating the wind right as wind whips
around trying to get to you can think of it as
again potential energy sure okay so uh one thing
thing now this is where it gets a little more
tricky if i go from hurricanes and big storms
and wind in general and trying to get it to climate
change the models and the science are nuanced
in some areas wind will actually become less
in some areas wind will become a little bit more
when we start talking about hurricanes the climate
change may actually decrease the number of hurricanes
and i see may because we're doing forward looking,
right? We're not taking an observation of today
and going, yes, this is the physics and everything
works out. We're like, if we understand the dynamics
of our atmosphere due to increases in warming,
due to our greenhouse gas emissions, et cetera,
then we think it's going to increase wind shear.
Yes, I'm throwing out more terms and I already
see you going, okay, how do I place this and
everything else? But if... Our hurricane has
everything moving up, creating the load pressure
at the top and sucking up more and more and more.
If we take wind shear, that's like pushing at
the top of that whole heat engine. Okay. Okay.
So if you're pushing at the top, you're going
to smear out that heat engine. You're going to
disrupt it. You're actually going to knock off
the cloud tops because you're going to move them
and you're disrupting it so it can't form. you
can't get this runaway effect of I see the ah
in your mouth there for those who are not watching
so so as you knock off the top you're disrupting
that heat engine and you're going to cause the
hurricane if it's already formed to start to
fall apart because you're disrupting it the other
way you can disrupt a hurricane is cool the water
beneath it or have it go over land because now
it's losing its engine source so the same idea
to both of those situations is having lots of
vertical or wind shear changing, being able to
knock off those storm tops. And we think climate
change is actually going to increase this kind
of shear. However, it's also going to increase
the temperature of the water. So the prevailing
theory or idea is that we may probably will get
a fewer number of hurricanes in the Atlantic
Basin. Specifically, I'm talking about the Atlantic
Basin. I'm not talking about the Pacific or across
the Pacific when we start talking about typhoons.
I'm really talking about the Atlantic Basin here.
We'll get an increase in shear winds, reducing
the number of hurricanes, but we're also going
to have warmer water. So when the conditions
are conducive to create this heat engine, to
have this flare up, the hurricanes are going
to be stronger. Okay, so like... Not as often,
but much more intense when they do happen. Yeah.
Okay. Okay. And that fits with the general theme
when we start looking at other things as well.
Like we talk about weather extremes as opposed
to specific like trends, right? We're going to
see more extremes, more droughts, more flooding,
and not necessarily on a daily basis. It's just
when these events happen, they're going to be
more extreme. Okay. And that goes right across
from storm systems to heat, to rain, even to
snow. Because disruptions in that whole wind
field and the temperature differential between
our North Pole and the equator can cause a destabilization
or, wow, words, so tough, 8 o 'clock in the morning,
destabilizes the weather patterns in the Arctic
and can cause the... polar vortex to come further
south than it normally does as well, which can
create really nasty cold snaps and crazy snowstorms
in northern Texas and Florida. So it's more than
just a heating. It's a destabilization. And when
this destabilization happens to our weather patterns,
it's going to create extremes and wacky weather.
And they will happen more often under climate
change than they would otherwise. got it okay
which is kind of why we need to do something
we should do something and i so i don't know
what to do but i feel like you probably have
a tip because i recycle and like i don't i don't
run my heat constantly but like i don't know
what else to do well this is what it comes down
to right is that you can't i get really frustrated
with people blaming other people who are living
in society it's like i have to blame someone
for dealing with the system that exists like
that's just crazy you have a car you need to
get to work let's not shame somebody because
they have a car like that's ridiculous but there
are things that we need to do as voters in a
democracy where we can start choosing or forcing
our politicians regardless of stripe or partisan
politics that we need to move in certain directions
like that's they will move if people ask them
to because that's what their job is and so things
like moving towards electric cars moving towards
uh i mean for all its talk um both in canada
which is where i'm from canadiany um the alberta
and you know texas they're the oil capitals of
north america and our respective countries but
yet they are the leaders when it comes to solar
and wind yeah because the economics are there
right solar is cheaper than coal in general i
mean yeah it takes more time to build up the
the capacity of solar but what for what solar
is cheaper. And so we're getting to a point where
the system as a whole is starting to make a switch.
And so we just need to help that along as individuals.
I'm not talking about forgoing a vacation necessarily.
It's about changing just the whole system, changing
short plane rides eventually need to become electric
instead of jet fuel. Long plane rides will probably
always use jet fuel because it just is what it
is. You need enough energy. yeah you run into
a physical limitation for sure yeah right cool
so that helps that helps a lot like first of
all a thank you for helping me understand wind
b thank you for kind of i guess putting it all
together and like in a bigger context because
like i think I didn't come into this thinking
like, oh, we're going to we're going to walk
away from it thinking, hey, this is something
that like actually does matter in the grand scheme
of things where this will impact people's lives.
This will I don't like I mean, I think back to
like Hurricane Katrina, where like New Orleans
and like parts of Louisiana are still dealing
with that situation. So I would like to avoid
that on a societal level as much as possible.
So understanding the like impacts of what we're
doing everywhere. And how that like that paints
the bigger picture is super helpful. And last
thing, I think there's like something that this
has been a theme in my life lately where I've
talked to like I've been I think on the receiving
end of like where I am with you right now, like
I'm the roles have been reversed a little bit
where I've been explaining like financial models
or like something to someone like on a on a business
perspective. And I think there's a perception
where like when someone knows something that
you don't, that you're immediately stupid. And
I appreciate you not making me feel stupid for
not understanding wind. Oh my gosh. What is it?
I have been in the game long enough to know what
I don't know. And it's a lot. Oh my goodness.
It would be so hypocritical of me to take that
tact. Like. And quite frankly, I have a podcast
about science communication. I mean, there's
so much to learn in the world today. And it's,
I don't want, I want people to stay curious.
I want people to be engaged. I want people to
learn. I don't want to make Idiocracy, the movie,
you know, become a reality. So, yeah, of course.
And I love the chance to go on your show here
and be able to opine about science in general.
It's a lot of fun. It's I mean, I started a podcast
that I like to sound in my own voice. I mean,
what? It's just it's too bad that I didn't get
to meet the other half of this podcast right
here and now. And maybe there'll be another opportunity
in the future. There absolutely will be. You've
been. so amazing so helpful i know this is a
much shorter episode than normal um i'm still
trying to figure out like what the footing looks
like this is for the listener like this i'm still
trying to figure out what it looks like until
emma comes back and realistically probably like
february um so sorry that we didn't have a reality
roundup today i can't imagine that jeff prepared
by watching the real housewives of salt lake
city last night but no that's not really my cup
of tea And that's okay because science is not
mine. But no, you can come back on literally
anytime you want. And I'm sure when Emma hears
this, she's going to be furious that I did this
without her. But we'll cross that bridge together
because I'm sure there's something else about
science that we don't understand. But thank you
so much for being here, Jeff. Tell the people
where they can find you. They can find me on
Facebook, Instagram, and Blue Sky at Whimsical
Wavelengths. The podcast is Whimsical Wavelengths,
a science podcast. I'm always looking for new
show ideas and just poke me on Instagram or Facebook.
So that way I'm not talking into the void. The
more interaction, the better. Awesome. I'll put
your episode or your show in my show notes. But
go listen to it for real. Like, it's super interesting.
You'll have an absolute time. But from Indy to
Alberta to wherever you are, we love you. And
thank you for listening. Thank you.