WEBVTT 00:00:00.300 --> 00:00:03.459 Had I been IPO'd, I would be in your top 5 right 00:00:03.459 --> 00:00:07.080 now. Top 5 % right now. So like, what's up guys? 00:00:25.100 --> 00:00:27.500 Hi listeners, welcome to Ascent, the podcast 00:00:27.500 --> 00:00:30.620 spotlighting newcomers and trailblazers. The 00:00:30.620 --> 00:00:33.039 fastest -raising companies redefining industries 00:00:33.039 --> 00:00:36.299 across Asia. We're Linda and Pam, two friends 00:00:36.299 --> 00:00:38.799 obsessed with tech and new businesses based in 00:00:38.799 --> 00:00:41.719 Asia. Every day we witness incredible stories 00:00:41.719 --> 00:00:44.740 of growth and innovation here. Stories that inspire 00:00:44.740 --> 00:00:48.060 us, surprise us, and deserve to be heard. In 00:00:48.060 --> 00:00:50.320 our first season, we're unpacking Asia's most 00:00:50.320 --> 00:00:53.189 exciting emerging trends. from tech disruptors 00:00:53.189 --> 00:00:56.170 to all sorts of innovative startups in Asia. 00:00:56.289 --> 00:00:59.469 This is Ascent. Let's explore the future, one 00:00:59.469 --> 00:01:02.909 story at a time. Why did we select this topic 00:01:02.909 --> 00:01:06.290 in the first place? I forgot exactly why we selected 00:01:06.290 --> 00:01:09.409 it. I think we did the ranking. But I think it 00:01:09.409 --> 00:01:12.310 was brought on my radar when the IPO announcement 00:01:12.310 --> 00:01:16.730 happened. So contacts, they were applying for 00:01:16.730 --> 00:01:21.670 IPO. 2020 almost five years ago and then uh finally 00:01:21.670 --> 00:01:25.530 on february 27th 2025 there was an announcement 00:01:25.530 --> 00:01:27.790 that it was approved they're still not on the 00:01:27.790 --> 00:01:30.230 market yet but it's finally approved and it's 00:01:30.230 --> 00:01:33.769 probably one of the longest ipo approvals for 00:01:33.769 --> 00:01:36.849 the shanghai stock exchange right it has been 00:01:36.849 --> 00:01:39.530 yeah yeah it's been a very long time yeah what's 00:01:39.530 --> 00:01:41.969 your reason what was uh for those of you who 00:01:41.969 --> 00:01:43.810 are listening to this for the first time actually 00:01:43.810 --> 00:01:46.109 we had already recorded a previous episode and 00:01:46.719 --> 00:01:48.719 We were a little too ambitious on the first topic. 00:01:48.859 --> 00:01:50.920 It was electric vehicle in China, and it was 00:01:50.920 --> 00:01:53.980 way too broad. We had basically researched more 00:01:53.980 --> 00:01:56.939 than five companies. And finally, after the thorough 00:01:56.939 --> 00:01:59.659 exhaustion of doing research over 100 hours, 00:02:00.060 --> 00:02:03.620 we decided not to do it. We decided it's too 00:02:03.620 --> 00:02:06.000 much. Can we focus on maybe one smaller company 00:02:06.000 --> 00:02:09.180 with a very specific... focus that perhaps we 00:02:09.180 --> 00:02:12.580 both know of and we both enjoy the product and, 00:02:12.620 --> 00:02:15.319 you know, with a relatively shorter history and 00:02:15.319 --> 00:02:17.659 voila, here we go. Insta360 becomes the easy 00:02:17.659 --> 00:02:20.460 target for that. Yeah. Much, much simpler. Yeah. 00:02:20.479 --> 00:02:24.039 Much easier. Niche market. Much easier. Um, yeah. 00:02:24.099 --> 00:02:30.340 Cool. Okay. So why don't we start with, um, who 00:02:30.340 --> 00:02:32.960 started this company? Exactly. Okay. The CEO 00:02:32.960 --> 00:02:36.439 of the company. Yeah. So the guy started programming 00:02:36.439 --> 00:02:39.539 when he was in his fifth grade of elementary 00:02:39.539 --> 00:02:44.819 school. And so my research got me to the story 00:02:44.819 --> 00:02:48.219 where he was playing a video game and he was 00:02:48.219 --> 00:02:51.819 really bored. He thinks that the video games 00:02:51.819 --> 00:02:54.439 is like created by other people. So he wanted 00:02:54.439 --> 00:02:57.360 to create stuff of his own. So he started like 00:02:57.360 --> 00:02:59.840 teaching himself learning. And bear in mind, 00:02:59.860 --> 00:03:02.599 he's born in 1991. So like fifth grade would 00:03:02.599 --> 00:03:07.090 have been. what like 2000 early 2000 right and 00:03:07.090 --> 00:03:10.889 back then there's not that much stuff on the 00:03:10.889 --> 00:03:13.250 internet there's not like youtube tutorials about 00:03:13.250 --> 00:03:17.490 programming so he just somehow learned html and 00:03:17.490 --> 00:03:20.270 stuff himself and made a website so you can kind 00:03:20.270 --> 00:03:23.210 of tell like he was that genius from as a kid 00:03:24.370 --> 00:03:26.849 But I think more of the stories actually happened 00:03:26.849 --> 00:03:30.250 in his university years. He made the news a couple 00:03:30.250 --> 00:03:34.110 of times, right? Yeah. Have you came across anything? 00:03:34.430 --> 00:03:38.250 It's almost impossible to not look at what he 00:03:38.250 --> 00:03:41.349 has done during his undergrad time. And also, 00:03:41.409 --> 00:03:43.349 like, if you want to remember his name, it's 00:03:43.349 --> 00:03:44.969 a little complicated in Chinese. It's called 00:03:44.969 --> 00:03:46.370 Jingkang if you want to remember that. But let's 00:03:46.370 --> 00:03:48.889 just shorten it for JK. JK. Yeah, I think he 00:03:48.889 --> 00:03:53.110 goes by JK Liu. JK Liu. So JK, right? He has 00:03:53.110 --> 00:03:56.810 done a series of very, as you have left in the 00:03:56.810 --> 00:03:59.770 note early on, Mark Zuckerberg -oriented things. 00:04:00.210 --> 00:04:03.689 He is like the Chinese Zuckerberg. Feels that 00:04:03.689 --> 00:04:06.449 way, right? Feels that way, yeah. So he went 00:04:06.449 --> 00:04:08.949 to Nanjing University, studied software development. 00:04:09.830 --> 00:04:12.770 And by sophomore year, he has made his first 00:04:12.770 --> 00:04:16.230 app, which is a sort of a face aggregator. Yes. 00:04:16.290 --> 00:04:21.230 So he overlaid thousands of faces from each department. 00:04:21.920 --> 00:04:26.379 for boys and for girls. And so that experiment 00:04:26.379 --> 00:04:29.879 went viral. That's very social media oriented, 00:04:30.079 --> 00:04:32.379 just like popular faces from each department, 00:04:32.560 --> 00:04:35.019 like those for studying computer science versus 00:04:35.019 --> 00:04:38.319 the boys and girls look from like maybe a social 00:04:38.319 --> 00:04:43.259 science department. But one thing about the average 00:04:43.259 --> 00:04:45.819 face of each department, do you know how he got 00:04:45.819 --> 00:04:50.790 the photos? Well, I am not entirely sure. But 00:04:50.790 --> 00:04:53.949 if there's any source, I'm guessing that maybe 00:04:53.949 --> 00:04:56.870 he has gotten it from Renren .com. It's not. 00:04:57.029 --> 00:05:01.689 No. He hacked the school. Oh, no. He hacked the 00:05:01.689 --> 00:05:05.250 administrative account of the school. Oh, my 00:05:05.250 --> 00:05:11.370 God. To get the 7 ,000 student ID photos. And 00:05:11.370 --> 00:05:13.850 he didn't get caught. So there's another story 00:05:13.850 --> 00:05:17.569 about how he almost got... He almost got expelled 00:05:17.569 --> 00:05:21.170 from school from stealing or hacking the admin 00:05:21.170 --> 00:05:25.189 account. I think for another purpose. He's a 00:05:25.189 --> 00:05:27.149 troublemaker. He's definitely not one of those, 00:05:27.290 --> 00:05:30.509 like, I'm going to attend school and listen to 00:05:30.509 --> 00:05:33.250 the teacher. And the other thing I find really 00:05:33.250 --> 00:05:36.720 interesting is... he made this viral himself 00:05:36.720 --> 00:05:41.139 by posting the blog and title it i stole over 00:05:41.139 --> 00:05:44.180 7 000 student photos and created the average 00:05:44.180 --> 00:05:48.149 face for each department so like he wants It 00:05:48.149 --> 00:05:50.329 feels like he wants that publicity and he created 00:05:50.329 --> 00:05:53.170 that himself. Yeah. So one of the few engineers 00:05:53.170 --> 00:05:56.649 who mastered both engineering, coding, and marketing 00:05:56.649 --> 00:06:00.529 at the same time. Exactly. And this is so true 00:06:00.529 --> 00:06:04.230 with Insta360 and how they do the marketing nowadays. 00:06:04.689 --> 00:06:08.550 Yeah. On top of that, okay, this may have been 00:06:08.550 --> 00:06:10.889 rumored, but I have collected this information 00:06:10.889 --> 00:06:13.110 from various sources that he has also made another 00:06:13.110 --> 00:06:16.050 dating app, like sort of an online calling app. 00:06:16.459 --> 00:06:18.439 You can download the app. You can use the app. 00:06:19.040 --> 00:06:23.139 And so the two people's image will show on the 00:06:23.139 --> 00:06:26.610 app. Everyone is blurred out. But as you continue 00:06:26.610 --> 00:06:29.149 the conversation, the guy's photo will start 00:06:29.149 --> 00:06:31.589 to... Oh, I remember this one. You remember this. 00:06:31.730 --> 00:06:34.550 Will start to sort of consolidate and then you 00:06:34.550 --> 00:06:36.870 can see more. And it is completely up to the 00:06:36.870 --> 00:06:38.610 girl whether she wants to continue that conversation. 00:06:38.750 --> 00:06:40.410 And throughout this process, the girl's image 00:06:40.410 --> 00:06:43.790 stays blurred. I love this guy. I love this idea. 00:06:44.050 --> 00:06:48.649 I mean, feminist, yes. Like Tinder, take note. 00:06:49.889 --> 00:06:52.370 Yeah. Also on top of the troublemaker topic. 00:06:52.920 --> 00:06:55.519 You may have also came across this. So towards 00:06:55.519 --> 00:07:00.120 his later undergrad life, he decoded, he reversed 00:07:00.120 --> 00:07:04.500 engineered sounds from a phone. Yes. And then 00:07:04.500 --> 00:07:08.420 he resolved, he basically reversed engineer Zhou 00:07:08.420 --> 00:07:12.300 Hongyi, which is a very large tech company's 00:07:12.300 --> 00:07:15.879 CEO's phone number, just by watching the television. 00:07:16.040 --> 00:07:18.439 And his phone number, the sound of it was... 00:07:18.750 --> 00:07:21.810 played in the television in the tv in the news 00:07:21.810 --> 00:07:24.910 and he recorded it and he was able to through 00:07:24.910 --> 00:07:27.670 various experiments and he could i honestly don't 00:07:27.670 --> 00:07:29.810 know how difficult it is seems like all of the 00:07:29.810 --> 00:07:32.269 sounds sounds pretty similar to me but but then 00:07:32.269 --> 00:07:35.930 he then called and then he then posted yeah uh 00:07:35.930 --> 00:07:39.670 later uh posted that oh well stop calling me 00:07:39.670 --> 00:07:42.910 he released the phone number yeah yeah he was 00:07:42.910 --> 00:07:44.889 like please don't release the phone number oh 00:07:44.889 --> 00:07:47.550 and then this also got uh lee kaifu's attention 00:07:47.550 --> 00:07:50.740 as well And then Li Kaifu posted on Weibo that, 00:07:50.779 --> 00:07:53.819 oh, like, you're clearly a very talented software 00:07:53.819 --> 00:07:56.680 engineer. Do you may want to come work with me? 00:07:56.740 --> 00:07:59.639 And so he posted there. Yeah. And he rejected 00:07:59.639 --> 00:08:03.240 that offer. But interestingly, on how this whole, 00:08:03.300 --> 00:08:06.740 like, phone number story. So he also, as the 00:08:06.740 --> 00:08:09.660 marketing PR person himself, wrote the blog. 00:08:10.110 --> 00:08:12.670 how did I use dial tone to extract She Who's 00:08:12.670 --> 00:08:15.470 Chairman's phone number? And he, in the blog 00:08:15.470 --> 00:08:18.050 post, he actually explained exactly how he did 00:08:18.050 --> 00:08:21.089 it. So he recorded the sound. He actually put 00:08:21.089 --> 00:08:25.189 a visual of that sound on the blog. And then 00:08:25.189 --> 00:08:27.629 he actually circled, like, what does it mean? 00:08:27.750 --> 00:08:31.269 Like, what kind of hertz is it to combine the 00:08:31.269 --> 00:08:34.330 dial tone into a nine or a one or two? So he 00:08:34.330 --> 00:08:37.169 kind of explained that. And then he, I think 00:08:37.169 --> 00:08:41.629 out of the 11 digits, blacked out six four five 00:08:41.629 --> 00:08:43.909 or six of the digits so that people don't like 00:08:43.909 --> 00:08:47.230 know the actual number but he like gave out the 00:08:47.230 --> 00:08:49.509 other one and he gave out the methodology so 00:08:49.509 --> 00:08:52.309 it's really easy to replicate wow so it's nothing 00:08:52.309 --> 00:08:54.929 like he mentioned that it's nothing super complex 00:08:54.929 --> 00:08:57.370 right as long as you get the recording and it's 00:08:57.370 --> 00:09:01.029 a standard kind of dial tone sound but the fact 00:09:01.029 --> 00:09:05.090 that he open extracted and got it out and like 00:09:05.090 --> 00:09:07.830 actually called the guy and before he called 00:09:07.830 --> 00:09:10.539 the guy i think he searched up on the internet 00:09:10.539 --> 00:09:13.820 this phone number to make sure that it is and 00:09:13.820 --> 00:09:17.059 I don't know back then I guess like you can tell 00:09:17.059 --> 00:09:19.120 you can look up a phone number and it'll say 00:09:19.120 --> 00:09:21.919 it's a China mobile number and it's from Beijing 00:09:21.919 --> 00:09:24.340 so he guessed that it's probably the right guy 00:09:24.340 --> 00:09:27.980 and he called it right yeah wow and he hung up 00:09:27.980 --> 00:09:30.980 because he was like oh is this Mr. Joe Mr. Joe's 00:09:30.980 --> 00:09:33.000 like I'm in a meeting what's up and then he's 00:09:33.000 --> 00:09:38.639 like oh wrong number sorry Prank. Prank. Prank. 00:09:38.720 --> 00:09:41.240 But yeah, just like a very interesting person, 00:09:41.340 --> 00:09:43.399 right? Like in your third year of university. 00:09:43.700 --> 00:09:46.519 And he saw the, and I don't know if this is accurate, 00:09:46.700 --> 00:09:50.720 but he saw the TV show where the dial tone was 00:09:50.720 --> 00:09:54.620 heard during his last day as an intern in Tencent 00:09:54.620 --> 00:09:56.960 where he's like, you know, I got nothing else 00:09:56.960 --> 00:09:59.899 to do other than watching a Youku video. He got 00:09:59.899 --> 00:10:02.019 bored. Yeah, he got bored. Oh boy. And then he 00:10:02.019 --> 00:10:03.840 extracted this out and he's like, I got to do 00:10:03.840 --> 00:10:08.309 something. Wow, geez. Later, did we know that 00:10:08.309 --> 00:10:11.350 a board engineer created a great company? Of 00:10:11.350 --> 00:10:16.169 course. It's another story for a lot of companies 00:10:16.169 --> 00:10:19.610 these days. For a lot of Silicon Valley. So I 00:10:19.610 --> 00:10:24.789 think there's at least 10 of these semi -startup 00:10:24.789 --> 00:10:28.059 -y things. He did while he was in university. 00:10:28.539 --> 00:10:30.639 Ooh, you're going to love this. This is the one 00:10:30.639 --> 00:10:34.200 that I love the most. But besides the deciphering 00:10:34.200 --> 00:10:37.299 the cell phone number, he kind of started a ad 00:10:37.299 --> 00:10:40.720 company. And the ad company that he started is 00:10:40.720 --> 00:10:44.960 called AddX. Oh no, what? But hear it out. It's 00:10:44.960 --> 00:10:47.720 not the ad platform that we're using these days. 00:10:47.820 --> 00:10:51.279 But it was early 2000. I was like, did Google 00:10:51.279 --> 00:10:54.720 buy him out? No, not this one. And so he loves 00:10:54.720 --> 00:10:57.799 watching videos. And he loves watching streaming 00:10:57.799 --> 00:11:01.360 services in general. And so one day he came, 00:11:01.519 --> 00:11:05.190 he just had an idea. What if... When you're streaming 00:11:05.190 --> 00:11:08.309 the video, ad can be placed within the videos 00:11:08.309 --> 00:11:11.710 and then you have like in -stream ads. Doesn't 00:11:11.710 --> 00:11:15.690 it sound very familiar? Yeah. And then this predates 00:11:15.690 --> 00:11:19.070 YouTube advertisement. This absolutely predates 00:11:19.070 --> 00:11:22.970 that. So when he was in college. which is like 00:11:22.970 --> 00:11:27.730 maybe 2010 -ish, 2012, he had already came up 00:11:27.730 --> 00:11:30.970 with this idea and started a company, started 00:11:30.970 --> 00:11:34.309 programming for it. And it is an automated ad 00:11:34.309 --> 00:11:37.029 slotting system that puts advertisement in the 00:11:37.029 --> 00:11:39.950 streaming videos. And the company itself is called 00:11:39.950 --> 00:11:43.169 AdX. And this is just so ahead of its time. This 00:11:43.169 --> 00:11:44.990 is the product that we're selling these days. 00:11:45.129 --> 00:11:49.970 And he had that idea. some 15, 20 years ago. 00:11:50.110 --> 00:11:54.769 This is when video streaming was kind of a thing, 00:11:54.889 --> 00:11:57.830 but not like ads were definitely not really on 00:11:57.830 --> 00:12:00.049 it? No, not at all. Because there's not enough 00:12:00.049 --> 00:12:02.529 live stream or content that's going on. There 00:12:02.529 --> 00:12:04.710 first has to be enough, I guess the penetration 00:12:04.710 --> 00:12:07.750 goes on, and then you sort of commercialize all 00:12:07.750 --> 00:12:11.019 of the streaming. Was it too early so that he 00:12:11.019 --> 00:12:14.320 ended up not continuing? Exactly. Okay. Exactly. 00:12:14.320 --> 00:12:16.399 So he had thought of the idea, which is a brilliant 00:12:16.399 --> 00:12:18.659 idea, but it was just a little too early for 00:12:18.659 --> 00:12:21.600 the market at that time. Wow. So he discontinued. 00:12:21.720 --> 00:12:24.960 Yeah. Yeah. And then he's bored again. He started 00:12:24.960 --> 00:12:29.580 watching, he was actually on YouTube and he saw 00:12:29.580 --> 00:12:33.139 a panel video on YouTube, right? Like, yeah. 00:12:33.320 --> 00:12:37.240 Yeah. There was some Australian panel YouTube 00:12:37.240 --> 00:12:42.669 video. Right. And he was inspired to... Well, 00:12:42.730 --> 00:12:44.429 I think two things, two takeaways from that. 00:12:44.509 --> 00:12:47.909 Like, he was quite inspired by how it looks because 00:12:47.909 --> 00:12:52.669 that's kind of new. And then he somehow figured 00:12:52.669 --> 00:12:56.389 that the hardware cost is really high, so there's 00:12:56.389 --> 00:13:00.090 an opportunity if we develop that in China somehow. 00:13:00.409 --> 00:13:03.090 Yeah, which is the second question I'm about 00:13:03.090 --> 00:13:07.279 to ask you, which is, JK sounds like... Someone 00:13:07.279 --> 00:13:10.639 who has a lot of experience in software development. 00:13:10.759 --> 00:13:13.399 That's what he studied. Yes. Then why did he 00:13:13.399 --> 00:13:18.580 start a hardware company? Yeah, no idea. So here's 00:13:18.580 --> 00:13:23.179 my guess. Here's my guess. It was a bit of luck. 00:13:24.360 --> 00:13:28.179 Obviously, that video inspired him. But he was 00:13:28.179 --> 00:13:30.580 going through... He was kind of a serial entrepreneur 00:13:30.580 --> 00:13:33.220 at that time, right? So he was just going through 00:13:33.220 --> 00:13:36.149 projects over projects over projects. And somehow 00:13:36.149 --> 00:13:39.330 this one worked. But the ones he worked on before, 00:13:39.570 --> 00:13:42.049 there are software -only non -hardware projects. 00:13:42.350 --> 00:13:46.509 Those just never kicked off. So I think before 00:13:46.509 --> 00:13:52.549 he started the precursor of Insta360, he was 00:13:52.549 --> 00:13:55.490 doing live streaming. He was doing university 00:13:55.490 --> 00:13:59.669 class live streaming and some events. And so 00:13:59.669 --> 00:14:01.769 he got into the live streaming industry, and 00:14:01.769 --> 00:14:04.490 he probably played around with cameras, but there's 00:14:04.490 --> 00:14:07.690 also a lot of software involved that didn't work 00:14:07.690 --> 00:14:10.909 out, which is why he kind of pivoted to this 00:14:10.909 --> 00:14:13.149 one. This one worked out, and that's why he went 00:14:13.149 --> 00:14:15.789 into hardware. But one of the things I think 00:14:15.789 --> 00:14:18.429 is an advantage for someone of his background 00:14:18.429 --> 00:14:24.009 is that even with a hardware product as your 00:14:24.009 --> 00:14:27.279 main product, the software component is still 00:14:27.279 --> 00:14:31.759 what makes insta360 special because so in my 00:14:31.759 --> 00:14:34.139 personal experience i came across their product 00:14:34.139 --> 00:14:39.600 first in 2022 and i was a gopro user i was a 00:14:39.600 --> 00:14:42.639 gopro max user you were yeah oh well i mean but 00:14:42.639 --> 00:14:45.379 i didn't know okay hold on and your first product 00:14:45.379 --> 00:14:48.440 is gopro max yes okay Okay, you can go on. And 00:14:48.440 --> 00:14:51.080 it was the Insta360 equivalent, right? Right, 00:14:51.100 --> 00:14:54.299 right. It is the fisheye, the 360 -degree camera. 00:14:54.440 --> 00:14:57.240 Exactly. And so the story is I was snowboarding 00:14:57.240 --> 00:15:00.240 with someone else, and one of us had a GoPro, 00:15:00.379 --> 00:15:02.639 and the other one had an Insta360, and that's 00:15:02.639 --> 00:15:06.759 the first time I saw it. And then we were exporting 00:15:06.759 --> 00:15:09.820 the videos, and it took me three hours to do 00:15:09.820 --> 00:15:12.580 the export, the cut, the stitch, everything. 00:15:13.539 --> 00:15:16.279 And you have to get it into a format that is, 00:15:16.299 --> 00:15:20.879 like, landscape kind of video going from the 00:15:20.879 --> 00:15:24.659 360 video so i had to like get the keyframes 00:15:24.659 --> 00:15:27.620 and everything and then i just everything took 00:15:27.620 --> 00:15:29.840 i mean i wasn't experienced everything took me 00:15:29.840 --> 00:15:35.820 three hours to export a very non -edited video 00:15:35.820 --> 00:15:40.580 oh boy right the other guy took like 10 minutes 00:15:40.580 --> 00:15:43.120 yeah it's like everything's automated let me 00:15:43.120 --> 00:15:45.039 auto cut for you oh what do you like does it 00:15:45.039 --> 00:15:48.710 look good right And I think I attribute my surprise 00:15:48.710 --> 00:15:52.029 element to how good the editing is. Because GoPro 00:15:52.029 --> 00:15:56.289 also does auto editing. I think his software 00:15:56.289 --> 00:16:00.090 background actually has something to do with 00:16:00.090 --> 00:16:04.909 how good that editing element is. And that was 00:16:04.909 --> 00:16:08.029 how I was sold, basically. Absolutely. Yeah. 00:16:08.379 --> 00:16:11.840 So that was a digression from your original question. 00:16:11.840 --> 00:16:14.700 No, no, but it's a great experience. I think 00:16:14.700 --> 00:16:16.919 most of the people who has heard of Insta360 00:16:16.919 --> 00:16:22.240 probably is also a GoPro or some sort of sports 00:16:22.240 --> 00:16:27.440 fan or action camera kind of fan. But think about 00:16:27.440 --> 00:16:31.100 this. By the time that he had wanted to start 00:16:31.100 --> 00:16:34.940 Insta360, none of his previous ventures were 00:16:34.940 --> 00:16:39.070 really that successful. He did something. Nothing 00:16:39.070 --> 00:16:41.629 to sustain him to the next level or get funding, 00:16:41.769 --> 00:16:46.730 I think. Exactly. So by that point, maybe there 00:16:46.730 --> 00:16:48.950 is free -flowing money in the market, but he 00:16:48.950 --> 00:16:51.330 hasn't really done anything that can really lock 00:16:51.330 --> 00:16:53.529 him down on the pathway of, oh, you're going 00:16:53.529 --> 00:16:57.789 to make this. So if anyone wants to fund him, 00:16:57.909 --> 00:17:03.029 that seems pretty risky at that point. But some 00:17:03.029 --> 00:17:06.579 people still decided to fund him. was lucky enough 00:17:06.579 --> 00:17:10.599 that by the end of his undergrad and also right 00:17:10.599 --> 00:17:12.819 after he graduated, he had participated in a 00:17:12.819 --> 00:17:18.740 lot of entrepreneur camps. And he is very lucky 00:17:18.740 --> 00:17:25.119 to have met one of his early investors, also 00:17:25.119 --> 00:17:29.819 probably later a mentor and someone who means 00:17:29.819 --> 00:17:34.750 so much for Insta360's entire growth. And that 00:17:34.750 --> 00:17:39.869 guy is called Li Feng from IDG. So IDG actually 00:17:39.869 --> 00:17:44.869 funded the first $1 million for Insta360. And 00:17:44.869 --> 00:17:49.750 the guy, Feng, had met him in a camp and saw 00:17:49.750 --> 00:17:52.130 him with great execution power and has a lot 00:17:52.130 --> 00:17:56.190 of software skills and decided to fund him. But 00:17:56.190 --> 00:18:00.490 when he was sort of making the prototype for 00:18:00.490 --> 00:18:08.759 the 360 camera, he was basically carrying a ball 00:18:08.759 --> 00:18:11.000 -shaped camera. It's like a Pokemon Go ball kind 00:18:11.000 --> 00:18:12.519 of thing. Yeah, I saw the prototype. Yeah, yeah, 00:18:12.599 --> 00:18:15.759 yeah. Oh, it's so... It's yellow. Yeah, it is 00:18:15.759 --> 00:18:19.440 like, it's so raw, right? It's like everything 00:18:19.440 --> 00:18:22.480 all stitched together, but like in a very engineering, 00:18:22.619 --> 00:18:25.200 there's a lot of glue. It's a prototype. It's 00:18:25.200 --> 00:18:27.579 a prototype. And it falls apart on the train 00:18:27.579 --> 00:18:30.700 that is heading to, on the way to the investor. 00:18:31.519 --> 00:18:33.880 And like on its way, it falls apart and then 00:18:33.880 --> 00:18:36.039 you have to stitch it back together again and 00:18:36.039 --> 00:18:39.039 it passes. But like there was a video of him 00:18:39.039 --> 00:18:41.359 recollecting that memory saying that like you 00:18:41.359 --> 00:18:45.000 always need to be aware of that the product that 00:18:45.000 --> 00:18:48.420 you create is a durable thing. And if it falls 00:18:48.420 --> 00:18:51.980 apart, then you lose the opportunity of the investor. 00:18:52.140 --> 00:18:55.039 But anyways. There's actually so many scenarios 00:18:55.039 --> 00:18:58.759 in the first year or two where this could have 00:18:58.759 --> 00:19:03.349 been. also a dead adventure like a vinter yeah 00:19:03.349 --> 00:19:07.049 that could have worked out imagine if he didn't 00:19:07.049 --> 00:19:09.170 manage to fix that prototype on time absolutely 00:19:09.170 --> 00:19:12.549 for the investor pitch or you know his first 00:19:12.549 --> 00:19:16.029 product he said wasn't as successful as he hoped 00:19:16.029 --> 00:19:20.470 it would be yeah so um yeah so a lot of things 00:19:20.470 --> 00:19:24.789 made the venture despite not having hardware 00:19:24.789 --> 00:19:28.869 background successful yeah and You mentioned 00:19:28.869 --> 00:19:31.849 the other thing about his early success and early 00:19:31.849 --> 00:19:34.910 fundings, which is he's family, right? Like he's 00:19:34.910 --> 00:19:39.289 dad. Yes. Yes. Yeah. So before he got that, I 00:19:39.289 --> 00:19:42.990 think this is before he got that IDG angel around 00:19:42.990 --> 00:19:47.009 investment, he did have to put up his own money 00:19:47.009 --> 00:19:50.509 for prototyping and for the initial development 00:19:50.509 --> 00:19:53.890 of the idea. And he managed to get together 300 00:19:53.890 --> 00:20:01.559 ,000 RMB, which is... 50K? Yeah, 50K USD himself. 00:20:02.000 --> 00:20:06.279 And half of that is through his past ventures, 00:20:06.380 --> 00:20:10.980 which is amazing for like a uni grad. And then 00:20:10.980 --> 00:20:15.059 the other half is supplemented by his dad, who 00:20:15.059 --> 00:20:18.700 is also an entrepreneur. Wow, like growing up 00:20:18.700 --> 00:20:21.440 in a family of entrepreneurs. Exactly. And then 00:20:21.440 --> 00:20:24.859 that got him started and that enabled the series 00:20:24.859 --> 00:20:29.890 of funding afterwards. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So 00:20:29.890 --> 00:20:34.190 at this point, what has he tried? He has mastered 00:20:34.190 --> 00:20:37.769 the skill set of picture collaging. He has streamed 00:20:37.769 --> 00:20:41.309 online courses. He had done video advertising. 00:20:41.569 --> 00:20:44.589 He watched and it got inspired by the panel clip 00:20:44.589 --> 00:20:48.609 online. And he wants to try the hardware company. 00:20:48.849 --> 00:20:53.630 And can I just add a little blurb about the hardware 00:20:53.630 --> 00:20:57.160 itself? Okay. He started off. Very particularly, 00:20:57.319 --> 00:21:02.359 he wanted to create a 360 panel camera. That 00:21:02.359 --> 00:21:05.819 was his very original idea because he sees this 00:21:05.819 --> 00:21:08.200 will be the future of a lot of content creating. 00:21:09.500 --> 00:21:12.859 So the prototype that he has created also falling 00:21:12.859 --> 00:21:16.980 apart on the train was what we call today a VR 00:21:16.980 --> 00:21:22.000 or an immersive camera. So that camera, it still 00:21:22.000 --> 00:21:25.539 exists and it's still very much in the Insta360 00:21:25.539 --> 00:21:29.240 offerings right now. But it is more on the VR 00:21:29.240 --> 00:21:32.920 and professional line of things. So they primarily 00:21:32.920 --> 00:21:36.099 have two line of products. One is for the more 00:21:36.099 --> 00:21:39.380 like VR pro users. And the other one is just 00:21:39.380 --> 00:21:42.380 for everyday people who are like us. And then 00:21:42.380 --> 00:21:45.380 the everyday one, he started off by creating 00:21:45.380 --> 00:21:49.740 360 degree cameras, slightly different from the 00:21:49.740 --> 00:21:53.400 sports camera that he created later on. And for 00:21:53.400 --> 00:21:57.099 the 360 camera that he had created, the market 00:21:57.099 --> 00:22:02.380 size for that is much smaller, actually much 00:22:02.380 --> 00:22:06.339 smaller than the sport camera market cap. So 00:22:06.339 --> 00:22:09.640 one thing to note. And it's about less than half 00:22:09.640 --> 00:22:11.839 of the size of that. The reason that he started 00:22:11.839 --> 00:22:14.259 creating a 360 -degree camera is because he wanted 00:22:14.259 --> 00:22:17.670 a mass market product. He wanted people... to 00:22:17.670 --> 00:22:21.910 be able to shoot more freely. And then with software, 00:22:22.069 --> 00:22:25.529 edit it to the way that he, she, or them will 00:22:25.529 --> 00:22:27.809 like. So I guess that's the beginning of it. 00:22:28.190 --> 00:22:32.670 And later on, towards the end of 2022, actually 00:22:32.670 --> 00:22:35.789 2022 was the first time that he had created an 00:22:35.789 --> 00:22:40.130 actual hard sports camera that looks like GoPro, 00:22:40.289 --> 00:22:43.299 which is called the Ace Pro. sports camera not 00:22:43.299 --> 00:22:45.599 a 360 sports camera but just a sports camera 00:22:45.599 --> 00:22:48.819 itself yeah uh there there are two lines one 00:22:48.819 --> 00:22:52.619 is the the insta 360 one x and the other one 00:22:52.619 --> 00:22:55.880 is the the ace and ace pro series and that's 00:22:55.880 --> 00:22:59.799 the sort of the gopro hero alike cameras yeah 00:22:59.799 --> 00:23:03.299 yeah i think he wanted to do more vr stuff in 00:23:03.299 --> 00:23:05.680 the beginning yeah and that's why he did the 00:23:05.680 --> 00:23:09.549 360 panoramic camera and then I think the whole 00:23:09.549 --> 00:23:11.349 niche thing also worked out for them because 00:23:11.349 --> 00:23:13.809 you have to focus on one thing before the other. 00:23:13.890 --> 00:23:16.869 But now that they've penetrated that market almost, 00:23:17.089 --> 00:23:22.069 they surpassed GoPro, I think. And they can now 00:23:22.069 --> 00:23:26.069 think about different product lines. And so I 00:23:26.069 --> 00:23:28.589 guess to expand a little bit on that, why did 00:23:28.589 --> 00:23:31.089 he pick a 360 -degree camera to start the business, 00:23:31.170 --> 00:23:33.890 not a sports camera? He started the company in 00:23:33.890 --> 00:23:37.000 2015. And by that time... Not only did GoPro 00:23:37.000 --> 00:23:39.140 already exist here for a long time, GoPro is 00:23:39.140 --> 00:23:41.599 already public at that time. GoPro started in 00:23:41.599 --> 00:23:45.960 2002 by a guy, a surfer called Nick Woodman. 00:23:46.119 --> 00:23:48.420 And he's a pure surfer, loves the ocean. And 00:23:48.420 --> 00:23:50.140 then the reason that he created that camera is 00:23:50.140 --> 00:23:52.599 because he wants a shot with the ocean when he's 00:23:52.599 --> 00:23:55.720 surfing. Makes sense. Yeah, and by 2014, the 00:23:55.720 --> 00:23:57.599 company's already public. Made a ton of money. 00:23:58.119 --> 00:24:04.190 And 2015, here comes Insta360. So if they want 00:24:04.190 --> 00:24:07.670 to compete on the sports camera lane, there is 00:24:07.670 --> 00:24:10.529 someone very strong that is already in that pathway. 00:24:10.789 --> 00:24:16.069 So perhaps it could be very costly to go head 00:24:16.069 --> 00:24:18.970 to head in that competition. So I guess maybe 00:24:18.970 --> 00:24:23.230 he is very good at capturing users' need. He 00:24:23.230 --> 00:24:25.349 knows that people are struggling with software. 00:24:25.490 --> 00:24:27.009 Exactly the problem that you have described. 00:24:27.190 --> 00:24:30.190 So that's when he decided, oh, like, what if 00:24:30.190 --> 00:24:33.670 I... created a much lighter version of that and 00:24:33.670 --> 00:24:36.809 make it available for the mass market and with 00:24:36.809 --> 00:24:39.630 a lot better software would people buy that yeah 00:24:39.630 --> 00:24:42.990 and the result was great yeah so so the story 00:24:42.990 --> 00:24:46.369 i heard is that he started with just vr camera 00:24:46.369 --> 00:24:49.369 um but then he couldn't find like a really good 00:24:49.369 --> 00:24:51.970 use case because he didn't tie the whole action 00:24:51.970 --> 00:24:57.170 sport and vr together yet and so after the initial 00:24:57.170 --> 00:25:00.240 year They actually had a product called Nano. 00:25:00.480 --> 00:25:02.720 Yes. That's the first product. That's the first 00:25:02.720 --> 00:25:05.420 product. And he would later on call it a failure 00:25:05.420 --> 00:25:10.660 because he went to shows and stuff with it and 00:25:10.660 --> 00:25:13.259 people were really impressed by how... small 00:25:13.259 --> 00:25:16.220 of a gadget it is and its ability to do 360 filming 00:25:16.220 --> 00:25:19.220 but then that's really the early adopters and 00:25:19.220 --> 00:25:22.059 the enthusiasts absolutely so soon after like 00:25:22.059 --> 00:25:25.039 after a month or two the sales begin to dwindle 00:25:25.039 --> 00:25:27.359 and he's like okay what do we do with it we can't 00:25:27.359 --> 00:25:29.960 we don't know who the market is yeah we can't 00:25:29.960 --> 00:25:33.180 educate the user that takes too long so he through 00:25:33.180 --> 00:25:36.539 a facebook fan group started identifying where 00:25:36.539 --> 00:25:39.819 should this product go next interesting and then 00:25:39.819 --> 00:25:43.589 he realized a lot of the early adopters of the 00:25:43.589 --> 00:25:48.660 initial 360 camera or sports enthusiasts. And 00:25:48.660 --> 00:25:51.339 that's how he got into this, oh, maybe there's 00:25:51.339 --> 00:25:55.579 a GoPro competition. New PMF. Yeah. So he's like, 00:25:55.700 --> 00:25:59.500 so GoPro is doing sports, right? It's targeting 00:25:59.500 --> 00:26:02.720 sport users, but it doesn't do 360. But then 00:26:02.720 --> 00:26:05.859 like Samsung and Ricoh, or I don't know if it's 00:26:05.859 --> 00:26:08.400 called Ricoh. It's Ricoh. Okay. So Ricoh are 00:26:08.400 --> 00:26:11.160 doing 360, but they haven't really found the 00:26:11.160 --> 00:26:13.319 sports connection. Right. So he's like, okay, 00:26:13.420 --> 00:26:15.880 well, there's a niche there. I think if we just. 00:26:16.269 --> 00:26:18.650 go into this maybe there's something maybe there's 00:26:18.650 --> 00:26:21.329 something but you're right about nano nano is 00:26:21.329 --> 00:26:25.109 one of those creations where they they very much 00:26:25.109 --> 00:26:29.890 created nano around iphone right right yes and 00:26:29.890 --> 00:26:32.130 that's such a highlight for that product it's 00:26:32.130 --> 00:26:34.450 kind of a plug and play i don't know if anyone 00:26:34.450 --> 00:26:36.750 has seen an actual nano before but if you go 00:26:36.750 --> 00:26:40.170 on to to watch the video of that like and you 00:26:40.170 --> 00:26:43.670 can see how like in 2025 you feel like it's pretty 00:26:43.670 --> 00:26:47.319 vintage right it's kind of a attach on like there's 00:26:47.319 --> 00:26:50.099 a little plug and you just like insert on your 00:26:50.099 --> 00:26:54.140 phone and your phone immediately becomes a 360 00:26:54.140 --> 00:26:58.819 degree camera. And the best part to Nano isn't 00:26:58.819 --> 00:27:01.299 really the hardware itself. It's the software. 00:27:01.500 --> 00:27:04.200 It's the software exactly and solves the problem 00:27:04.200 --> 00:27:06.740 that you just described. A little basics of how 00:27:06.740 --> 00:27:12.099 360 camera works is it is called a double fisheye 00:27:12.099 --> 00:27:16.099 camera. A fisheye is normally 180 degree. So 00:27:16.099 --> 00:27:19.779 double fisheye is when you stitch two 180 degree 00:27:19.779 --> 00:27:23.839 pictures together. And then the hardware, like 00:27:23.839 --> 00:27:26.480 you can always put two fisheyes like next to 00:27:26.480 --> 00:27:29.720 each other. But what makes the software good 00:27:29.720 --> 00:27:32.519 and what GoPro doesn't have at the time is GoPro 00:27:32.519 --> 00:27:36.279 only takes a photo. the editing or the blending 00:27:36.279 --> 00:27:39.000 of the photo is going to be offline and somewhere 00:27:39.000 --> 00:27:41.559 else. So GoPro doesn't take care of that. And 00:27:41.559 --> 00:27:45.539 this is what JK discovered. And he's like, oh, 00:27:45.619 --> 00:27:48.339 why don't I just create something, if there's 00:27:48.339 --> 00:27:52.680 an app that allows people to, with the attachment 00:27:52.680 --> 00:27:56.119 of the hardware on the iPhone, immediately takes 00:27:56.119 --> 00:27:59.500 the shot, immediately stitches the photos together, 00:27:59.700 --> 00:28:03.000 and immediately brings it to Instagram, and bam. 00:28:03.420 --> 00:28:06.259 and it kind of works out at the beginning. It 00:28:06.259 --> 00:28:10.740 was a hit in a CES in 2016 but like you said 00:28:10.740 --> 00:28:16.880 the sales didn't sustain. Is Nano a good product? 00:28:17.920 --> 00:28:22.839 It's a cool creation but 2016 wasn't the year 00:28:22.839 --> 00:28:26.119 that everyone is so educated about what this 00:28:26.119 --> 00:28:29.799 kind of photography is. So more to be discovered. 00:28:30.140 --> 00:28:33.359 I think later on they realized that sports and 00:28:33.359 --> 00:28:36.900 360 is a good combination. But with an iPhone 00:28:36.900 --> 00:28:39.160 plug -in, it's not like you bring your iPhone. 00:28:39.740 --> 00:28:42.200 and it's a plug -in to snowboarding or to surfing 00:28:42.200 --> 00:28:44.460 and that kind of stuff. So then later on, they 00:28:44.460 --> 00:28:47.380 have to adopt it to the user. And I think that's 00:28:47.380 --> 00:28:50.559 what Insta360 is really good at, which is identifying 00:28:50.559 --> 00:28:54.359 really pain points of the user and spend tons 00:28:54.359 --> 00:28:59.019 of money in R &D to figure it out. And usually 00:28:59.019 --> 00:29:02.359 the users will pay the bill because you solve 00:29:02.359 --> 00:29:04.440 their pain point, whether it's stitching, which... 00:29:04.730 --> 00:29:06.349 Probably less people, I think there might be 00:29:06.349 --> 00:29:08.490 marketing issues in the beginning as well as 00:29:08.490 --> 00:29:12.809 people knows about it. But yeah, like eventually 00:29:12.809 --> 00:29:15.130 if you, and he said, if you do this repeatedly 00:29:15.130 --> 00:29:18.349 over and over again, finding existing markets 00:29:18.349 --> 00:29:21.049 that are big enough, figure out the pain point 00:29:21.049 --> 00:29:23.650 and just do it better than everyone else. True. 00:29:23.750 --> 00:29:27.910 Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Oh, also I, because of 00:29:27.910 --> 00:29:30.509 this particular research, I had an opportunity 00:29:30.509 --> 00:29:35.730 to reach out to a friend. who is an MIT graduate 00:29:35.730 --> 00:29:39.569 like you, and who also currently works for a 00:29:39.569 --> 00:29:43.569 hardware company that starts with an A. And he 00:29:43.569 --> 00:29:47.549 is a lens engineer for this company. Hardware 00:29:47.549 --> 00:29:52.210 company that starts with an A. Okay. And so I 00:29:52.210 --> 00:29:55.150 was asking him, right, for a camera consumer 00:29:55.150 --> 00:29:57.809 electronics product, what makes it good? There 00:29:57.809 --> 00:30:01.849 has to be the hardware bit and the software bit. 00:30:02.240 --> 00:30:04.940 That makes a consumer electronics good. And then 00:30:04.940 --> 00:30:07.559 the hardware bit, if it's a camera, two things 00:30:07.559 --> 00:30:12.000 are the defining factors. One is the lenses itself. 00:30:12.660 --> 00:30:17.920 And two is the sensor. The better the lens, the 00:30:17.920 --> 00:30:22.220 better function of the camera that it can be 00:30:22.220 --> 00:30:25.200 at a lower light setting. So like, for example, 00:30:25.200 --> 00:30:27.920 at night, does it capture well? In a camera design, 00:30:28.259 --> 00:30:31.690 the lens and the sensor are the... basically 00:30:31.690 --> 00:30:35.509 accounts for about half of the price of the entire 00:30:35.509 --> 00:30:40.069 camera itself. And those determined how good 00:30:40.069 --> 00:30:43.269 of a photo you can actually take. So that's the 00:30:43.269 --> 00:30:47.069 hardware bit. And on the software bit, you then 00:30:47.069 --> 00:30:49.089 have to think about, well, obviously, there's 00:30:49.089 --> 00:30:52.369 the customer pain points. And in the meantime, 00:30:52.450 --> 00:30:56.789 if it's a 360 -degree camera, then how well can 00:30:56.789 --> 00:31:01.279 you blend the photos? together like can you stitch 00:31:01.279 --> 00:31:06.079 it up very seamlessly and especially for a sports 00:31:06.079 --> 00:31:09.059 camera stabilization is very important right 00:31:09.059 --> 00:31:12.400 like you can't be can't be like on a on a bicycle 00:31:12.400 --> 00:31:14.799 yeah apparently they have like a shaking thing 00:31:14.799 --> 00:31:16.980 at the development center and they just like 00:31:16.980 --> 00:31:20.880 shake the thing no matter how you shake it it's 00:31:20.880 --> 00:31:23.059 going to be well yeah so so so there's that so 00:31:23.059 --> 00:31:26.279 the software the computational photography uh 00:31:26.279 --> 00:31:31.000 balances out the the missing part on the sensor 00:31:31.000 --> 00:31:34.539 and on the lenses. Because you can't always buy 00:31:34.539 --> 00:31:37.200 the most expensive ones. Okay, so it's a package. 00:31:37.299 --> 00:31:39.740 If one is not as good, you use the other to compare. 00:31:39.740 --> 00:31:42.039 Exactly. And consumers are not willing to pay 00:31:42.039 --> 00:31:44.660 for an extremely good lens or sensor, right? 00:31:44.859 --> 00:31:47.359 They're expensive. They can be expensive. They 00:31:47.359 --> 00:31:50.180 can be really expensive if you buy the Sony ones, 00:31:50.279 --> 00:31:52.740 right? If you bring the cost down and use the 00:31:52.740 --> 00:31:55.059 right ones and then... bring up the photography 00:31:55.059 --> 00:31:56.900 level with your software then you can achieve 00:31:56.900 --> 00:31:58.960 a balance and then you can you're able to deliver 00:31:58.960 --> 00:32:01.980 something that is very handy everyone can afford 00:32:01.980 --> 00:32:04.500 uh but at a very good quality so that's their 00:32:04.500 --> 00:32:06.279 thinking which is brilliant like i love it like 00:32:06.279 --> 00:32:08.980 all software engineers like computer science 00:32:08.980 --> 00:32:13.079 folks consider going into hardware as your potential 00:32:13.079 --> 00:32:15.500 business and you have this advantage yeah yeah 00:32:15.500 --> 00:32:21.579 exactly all right so so there he is um Couple 00:32:21.579 --> 00:32:24.279 years down the line of making Insta360 camera. 00:32:24.779 --> 00:32:29.359 First product is Nano. Second product is Insta360 00:32:29.359 --> 00:32:32.440 Air. And I don't know if you have ever seen that 00:32:32.440 --> 00:32:36.079 very cute little camera before. It is a little 00:32:36.079 --> 00:32:38.279 ball -shaped camera. Also a plug -and -play. 00:32:38.720 --> 00:32:41.680 And then you just plug it onto your phone. It's 00:32:41.680 --> 00:32:44.119 like a little ball -shaped thing. And it captures 00:32:44.119 --> 00:32:48.500 360 -degree photos for you. But the only thing 00:32:48.500 --> 00:32:52.220 that bugs me is that it's round. It looks very 00:32:52.220 --> 00:32:55.819 chunky, and they're no longer selling it. For 00:32:55.819 --> 00:32:59.059 good reason. Yeah, and I think the engineers 00:32:59.059 --> 00:33:00.839 probably also realized that reason. It's not 00:33:00.839 --> 00:33:03.539 like a very smooth attachment. It could fall 00:33:03.539 --> 00:33:06.680 off any time. So there's only air, and then they 00:33:06.680 --> 00:33:09.460 abandoned that. They no longer create air anymore. 00:33:10.240 --> 00:33:16.160 Right after Insta360 Air comes two things. In 00:33:16.160 --> 00:33:20.460 2017, they published one product. on the professional 00:33:20.460 --> 00:33:22.700 line of things and one on the consumer level 00:33:22.700 --> 00:33:26.160 of things. The professional one is a VR camera. 00:33:26.279 --> 00:33:29.480 It's called Insta360 Pro. And the consumer level 00:33:29.480 --> 00:33:34.279 product is called the Insta360 One. And One is 00:33:34.279 --> 00:33:37.599 the one that we see right now. It's the slim, 00:33:37.680 --> 00:33:40.099 long, black. That's the one I was talking about, 00:33:40.160 --> 00:33:42.099 yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's kind of their 00:33:42.099 --> 00:33:46.799 all -time favorite product. But it was the first 00:33:46.799 --> 00:33:50.450 edition of that. It wasn't perfect. And judging 00:33:50.450 --> 00:33:55.849 by how often they're upgrading their products, 00:33:56.029 --> 00:33:59.170 it really does look like that they're putting 00:33:59.170 --> 00:34:03.369 so much effort into their R &D. They update Insta360 00:34:03.369 --> 00:34:07.069 One almost every year. Almost every year. And 00:34:07.069 --> 00:34:09.809 on the only year that they're not updating Insta360 00:34:09.809 --> 00:34:16.650 One, they create new products. So in 2018... 00:34:18.000 --> 00:34:21.079 they updated into 360 one i'm just gonna call 00:34:21.079 --> 00:34:24.679 it one it's like two wordy one had a new version 00:34:24.679 --> 00:34:27.780 1x and that's also when they started uh this 00:34:27.780 --> 00:34:30.539 new sort of photo taking strategy called bullet 00:34:30.539 --> 00:34:34.340 time uh a bullet time is it the one you swing 00:34:34.340 --> 00:34:37.320 yes like a rope around you and it feels like 00:34:37.320 --> 00:34:40.760 you're having okay i love it it's crazy it's 00:34:40.760 --> 00:34:43.840 when you create a hardware and jk is such a fun 00:34:43.840 --> 00:34:46.650 person he has this Like, I'm just going to try 00:34:46.650 --> 00:34:49.570 new things and I want to create a camera like 00:34:49.570 --> 00:34:52.070 no one created this before. And not only did 00:34:52.070 --> 00:34:54.130 he create the camera, he also created new ways 00:34:54.130 --> 00:34:56.309 of playing around with this camera, which is 00:34:56.309 --> 00:34:59.489 bullet time. And so the rope is also actually 00:34:59.489 --> 00:35:02.250 an Insta360 product as well because it doesn't... 00:35:02.599 --> 00:35:04.800 fall apart and oh they have to the rope is an 00:35:04.800 --> 00:35:07.360 accessory they can buy on it's a designated rope 00:35:07.360 --> 00:35:09.739 it can't just be any rope for safety reasons 00:35:09.739 --> 00:35:12.500 i thought it was just i can just use my belt 00:35:12.500 --> 00:35:15.260 or whatever and like tie it to the camera yeah 00:35:15.260 --> 00:35:17.460 i really i really like their speaking of this 00:35:17.460 --> 00:35:21.349 uh i really like their accessories They recently 00:35:21.349 --> 00:35:23.449 had this like no drone, no problem campaign. 00:35:23.550 --> 00:35:25.949 I don't know if you've seen it. So the accessory 00:35:25.949 --> 00:35:28.389 is a three meter long camera stick basically. 00:35:28.869 --> 00:35:31.610 So when you hold the 360 and it's three meter 00:35:31.610 --> 00:35:34.099 long, it feels like a drone photo. Oh, that's 00:35:34.099 --> 00:35:36.699 why it says no drone, no problem. No problem, 00:35:36.699 --> 00:35:38.139 yeah. Oh, wow. I think it's called no drone, 00:35:38.199 --> 00:35:40.059 no problem, or no drone, no something. Beautiful. 00:35:40.380 --> 00:35:44.320 Yeah, and they have creators that does behind 00:35:44.320 --> 00:35:46.500 -the -scenes videos to teach people how these 00:35:46.500 --> 00:35:49.679 work, and they actually pay the creators kind 00:35:49.679 --> 00:35:52.900 of like your ECPM kind of impression kind of 00:35:52.900 --> 00:35:54.679 thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So if you get YouTube 00:35:54.679 --> 00:35:58.860 Shorts or Instagram real impressions, you get 00:35:58.860 --> 00:36:03.650 paid. Yeah. Yeah, it's way later on. They interact 00:36:03.650 --> 00:36:05.949 with those who play around with the camera a 00:36:05.949 --> 00:36:08.110 lot. Like, if you're a fun creator, if you're 00:36:08.110 --> 00:36:09.730 a thing, I'm going to pay you money for doing 00:36:09.730 --> 00:36:11.809 that. Yeah, like swing a thing around yourself 00:36:11.809 --> 00:36:15.590 and see how that works. Did you see the part 00:36:15.590 --> 00:36:19.469 where they got an eagle? Oh, that is my favorite 00:36:19.469 --> 00:36:25.070 part. They have mounted this camera to show how 00:36:25.070 --> 00:36:28.469 good the camera is with stabilization and how 00:36:28.469 --> 00:36:33.139 light it is. putting it on eagle, put it on dogs, 00:36:33.320 --> 00:36:36.780 put it on a lot of animals, and it kind of became 00:36:36.780 --> 00:36:38.900 a tradition. And it's a great video. I loved 00:36:38.900 --> 00:36:43.840 it. Yeah. So apparently, I heard this in another 00:36:43.840 --> 00:36:49.460 podcast, actually. So in the employee either 00:36:49.460 --> 00:36:53.059 WhatsApp or WeChat group, they have this emoji 00:36:53.059 --> 00:36:56.820 of JK, and it says, like, protects jk's dreams 00:36:56.820 --> 00:36:59.619 so if he has if he has a wish list or whatever 00:36:59.619 --> 00:37:03.400 his his his employees are like okay can we do 00:37:03.400 --> 00:37:05.860 this ego thing can we do this you know ridiculous 00:37:05.860 --> 00:37:08.619 thing that he just asked us this is the best 00:37:08.619 --> 00:37:11.860 employee employer relationship i know like yeah 00:37:11.860 --> 00:37:15.440 and he seems to be a good guy with a lot of crazy 00:37:15.440 --> 00:37:19.780 ideas yeah yeah but he also so i so i think he 00:37:19.780 --> 00:37:21.920 said this in an interview he would like only 00:37:21.920 --> 00:37:23.599 sleep for three four hours that's impossible 00:37:23.599 --> 00:37:26.699 and then if he If he gets, in the beginning, 00:37:26.840 --> 00:37:30.260 in the beginning, like maybe series A or B, but 00:37:30.260 --> 00:37:32.480 then when he gets really frustrated or tired, 00:37:32.679 --> 00:37:35.639 he will go watch Insta360 videos to cheer him 00:37:35.639 --> 00:37:39.719 up. Oh. Yeah. That's why he's creative for the 00:37:39.719 --> 00:37:42.239 brand. He just loves the product so much. It's 00:37:42.239 --> 00:37:44.480 real love. Yeah, it's real love. Do you know 00:37:44.480 --> 00:37:48.039 what product they developed after that? It can't 00:37:48.039 --> 00:37:49.860 always be the same thing. There has to be something 00:37:49.860 --> 00:37:52.900 new. Something in the consumer area. Yes, something 00:37:52.900 --> 00:37:56.170 in the consumer area. Like not the regular sports 00:37:56.170 --> 00:38:03.130 camera, not 360? It is wide angle. It is wide 00:38:03.130 --> 00:38:06.250 angle. It is not 360, but it's wide angle. If 00:38:06.250 --> 00:38:09.610 you're the hardware product manager, then after... 00:38:09.610 --> 00:38:12.329 You can always upgrade to the same camera, of 00:38:12.329 --> 00:38:14.130 course. You can always bring it to a next generation. 00:38:14.369 --> 00:38:18.469 But what other things would you try? Wide angle. 00:38:18.769 --> 00:38:25.659 Yeah. Non -sport use. It can be sports use. Okay, 00:38:25.860 --> 00:38:27.500 you're gonna have to tell me. Okay, in 2019, 00:38:27.659 --> 00:38:31.340 they created a new camera. And I bet you have 00:38:31.340 --> 00:38:34.000 seen this one before. It is so small. It is the 00:38:34.000 --> 00:38:36.000 size of a thumb. Oh, the finger thing. Exactly. 00:38:36.440 --> 00:38:38.380 It is the size of a thumb. What's it called? 00:38:38.639 --> 00:38:42.260 It's called Go. Okay. Yes. And in 2019, that's 00:38:42.260 --> 00:38:45.519 the only year that they did not upgrade any new 00:38:45.519 --> 00:38:49.000 product on the One series that they decided that 00:38:49.000 --> 00:38:52.619 they're going to take a break. Go was produced 00:38:52.619 --> 00:38:55.280 and is a very small camera. But if you think 00:38:55.280 --> 00:38:57.320 about a camera that small, the first problem 00:38:57.320 --> 00:39:00.639 that you think of is how do I hold this thing? 00:39:00.860 --> 00:39:06.420 It can be attached, but the battery life is also 00:39:06.420 --> 00:39:09.300 very low. So it is a wide -angle camera, but 00:39:09.300 --> 00:39:11.780 it's not like the all -time favorite. Two years 00:39:11.780 --> 00:39:14.969 after 2019 when it was first published. The second 00:39:14.969 --> 00:39:18.030 generation of Go was updated. And that's when 00:39:18.030 --> 00:39:20.929 there is a magnetic clip. You can clip it right 00:39:20.929 --> 00:39:23.909 in front of you. And it's a wide angle. It records 00:39:23.909 --> 00:39:27.530 everything that's in front of you. And yeah, 00:39:27.630 --> 00:39:32.730 so that's on the Go camera. And the Ace and Ace 00:39:32.730 --> 00:39:37.099 Pro cameras are also... wide -angle cameras. 00:39:37.280 --> 00:39:41.260 They're not exactly 360 degree camera. So I think 00:39:41.260 --> 00:39:45.159 by what 2019 -18 is when they started looking 00:39:45.159 --> 00:39:49.059 at other product lines, right? So that's only 00:39:49.059 --> 00:39:51.539 four years into really like mass production. 00:39:51.900 --> 00:39:55.719 Yeah, and four years after mass production, they 00:39:55.719 --> 00:40:00.480 are expanding to very different SKUs. They also 00:40:00.480 --> 00:40:06.219 developed a modular Insta360 ONE RS. with with 00:40:06.219 --> 00:40:09.139 leica in the meantime so gopro is also updating 00:40:09.139 --> 00:40:14.380 but after sort of careful comparison between 00:40:14.380 --> 00:40:16.380 the gopro product updates versus the instant 00:40:16.380 --> 00:40:18.719 360 updates do you know how many new products 00:40:18.719 --> 00:40:21.199 products that gopro launch like in between 2015 00:40:21.199 --> 00:40:27.199 and 2025 like one or two yeah okay we were am 00:40:27.199 --> 00:40:29.380 i on the low end no no actually you're right 00:40:29.380 --> 00:40:32.679 they only updated uh so in terms of the number 00:40:32.679 --> 00:40:36.230 of different skus They almost didn't do any update. 00:40:36.449 --> 00:40:40.230 Yeah. So GoPro Max was first launched in 2019. 00:40:40.369 --> 00:40:43.550 So the camera, the first camera, the camera in 00:40:43.550 --> 00:40:46.449 your series that was created in 2019. And then 00:40:46.449 --> 00:40:49.489 the second update is going to come up in 2026. 00:40:49.750 --> 00:40:51.889 So the second generation of GoPro Max hasn't 00:40:51.889 --> 00:40:54.170 even existed yet. Yeah. And they killed the desktop. 00:40:54.449 --> 00:40:58.949 Yeah. Product. Right. And they do have a flagship 00:40:58.949 --> 00:41:02.489 product called GoPro Hero, which is just the 00:41:02.489 --> 00:41:07.199 box. right the original and that camera updates 00:41:07.199 --> 00:41:11.619 every single year but it's just the updated version 00:41:11.619 --> 00:41:14.380 of the existing camera they're not creating anything 00:41:14.380 --> 00:41:17.059 like the software updates they're not doing the 00:41:17.059 --> 00:41:20.119 hardware small changes oh okay yeah okay yeah 00:41:20.119 --> 00:41:24.500 while insta publish or like release I'm on 10 00:41:24.500 --> 00:41:27.059 different SKUs. Yeah. They have a drone camera 00:41:27.059 --> 00:41:30.280 called Sphere. They have, like for conference 00:41:30.280 --> 00:41:33.239 meeting, they have Insta360 Link. They also have 00:41:33.239 --> 00:41:36.619 Gimbal. And if you like diving, they also have 00:41:36.619 --> 00:41:39.000 like diving fit cameras. And on the professional 00:41:39.000 --> 00:41:41.059 kind of line of things, they also have like the 00:41:41.059 --> 00:41:43.860 Pro, the Titan. And they have also abandoned 00:41:43.860 --> 00:41:46.500 products before. There is one camera published 00:41:46.500 --> 00:41:49.480 a long time ago, 2019. It's called Insta360 Evo, 00:41:49.539 --> 00:41:55.639 which is a sort of a... VR camera for families, 00:41:55.980 --> 00:41:58.920 not for professionals. They tried so many things. 00:41:59.119 --> 00:42:01.719 This is like two very different strategies that 00:42:01.719 --> 00:42:05.760 you pointed out, like GoPro, because GoPro's 00:42:05.760 --> 00:42:09.159 strategy, going back to EV, but this is like, 00:42:09.219 --> 00:42:12.400 you know how Tesla has like four models in total, 00:42:12.480 --> 00:42:16.619 that's their line, right? and GoPro is going 00:42:16.619 --> 00:42:20.079 to have a few models, a handful of models, whereas 00:42:20.079 --> 00:42:24.519 the Chinese counterparts are just really, they're 00:42:24.519 --> 00:42:29.099 just all in with just different SKUs. Your average 00:42:29.099 --> 00:42:33.719 EV is like 30, 40 SKUs with minor tweaks or different 00:42:33.719 --> 00:42:38.340 target audiences, whereas Insta360 is similar 00:42:38.340 --> 00:42:41.989 in that perspective. Just very different ways 00:42:41.989 --> 00:42:44.690 of how companies are looking at this. Like, oh, 00:42:44.690 --> 00:42:47.530 the Insta360 is kind of like, we're willing to 00:42:47.530 --> 00:42:51.050 risk that maybe a few of our SKUs won't work 00:42:51.050 --> 00:42:53.269 out, but we're just going to hit you with everything. 00:42:53.389 --> 00:42:55.889 Exactly, yeah. That's exactly what they did. 00:42:56.050 --> 00:42:58.550 Like, a few things doesn't work out. And I guess 00:42:58.550 --> 00:43:00.690 for the hardware engineers who are out there... 00:43:00.960 --> 00:43:02.679 I think this points to a very clear direction 00:43:02.679 --> 00:43:04.659 of where you should be coming to try new things 00:43:04.659 --> 00:43:07.159 and work. Maybe come to China. Yeah. There would 00:43:07.159 --> 00:43:08.179 be a lot of new opportunities. There's also, 00:43:08.239 --> 00:43:11.219 I think, I mean, we didn't talk about how his 00:43:11.219 --> 00:43:14.340 company is based in Shenzhen, so the cost of 00:43:14.340 --> 00:43:18.300 development is probably a lot lower over there. 00:43:18.340 --> 00:43:21.619 It's kind of the hub of electronics manufacturing, 00:43:22.039 --> 00:43:25.820 right? Absolutely. Yeah, it is. So he can just, 00:43:25.900 --> 00:43:28.480 like, if they have an idea, someone can pick 00:43:28.480 --> 00:43:31.380 up something next door and, like, run with a 00:43:31.380 --> 00:43:35.360 prototype the day after yeah yeah they're interesting 00:43:35.360 --> 00:43:37.800 because we both had raised these questions early 00:43:37.800 --> 00:43:40.320 on and i'd like to hear your thoughts on it which 00:43:40.320 --> 00:43:44.219 is now that you have like you're clearly very 00:43:44.219 --> 00:43:47.219 good at designing products you're clearly very 00:43:47.219 --> 00:43:48.840 good at launching different line of products 00:43:48.840 --> 00:43:54.860 why did you not stay in china i i know The answer 00:43:54.860 --> 00:44:01.719 from JK. You shall speak. But no, I want to hear 00:44:01.719 --> 00:44:04.659 what your thought is. I may be very biased. I 00:44:04.659 --> 00:44:09.840 do think if you're targeting consumer electronics, 00:44:10.219 --> 00:44:14.219 and especially if you want sports niche groups 00:44:14.219 --> 00:44:17.079 to be able to buy, your audience are 100 % overseas. 00:44:17.400 --> 00:44:20.639 Your audience are mostly not in China. Right. 00:44:21.280 --> 00:44:24.380 And also given that it was 2015 through 2020, 00:44:24.639 --> 00:44:28.980 this is a time when the overseas market is already 00:44:28.980 --> 00:44:32.280 mature and, you know, have lots to offer, and 00:44:32.280 --> 00:44:35.960 CES is always there, is ready, and when the sports 00:44:35.960 --> 00:44:38.559 interest group in China has just started. Like, 00:44:38.579 --> 00:44:40.800 I can say confidently the sports interest group 00:44:40.800 --> 00:44:43.199 in China is starting as of now. It's not even, 00:44:43.239 --> 00:44:45.179 like, large yet. Yeah, most people learned snowboarding, 00:44:45.239 --> 00:44:46.559 like, three years ago. Well, exactly. That's 00:44:46.559 --> 00:44:48.440 why you see so many amateurs on a ski resort. 00:44:49.949 --> 00:44:53.929 Yeah, but the groups are much bigger and more 00:44:53.929 --> 00:44:57.309 diverse overseas. So if you're developing a product, 00:44:57.590 --> 00:44:59.989 launch it on Indiegogo, launch it on Kickstarter. 00:45:00.349 --> 00:45:02.070 There will be people looking at it and they won't 00:45:02.070 --> 00:45:04.809 want to buy it overseas. Yeah, I think that's 00:45:04.809 --> 00:45:07.650 one of the reasons, even if you look at the market 00:45:07.650 --> 00:45:12.909 share right now, US and EMEA are the majority 00:45:12.909 --> 00:45:16.909 of their users. The one thing they've quoted, 00:45:17.150 --> 00:45:20.969 and this is from JK himself and one of the head 00:45:20.969 --> 00:45:26.110 of marketing, is actually fear. Oh, fear? Yeah, 00:45:26.269 --> 00:45:28.630 which is very surprising, right? Fear or love? 00:45:28.750 --> 00:45:33.710 Fear of competition within domestic Chinese borders. 00:45:34.170 --> 00:45:39.389 So if you're developing a hardware in Shenzhen 00:45:39.389 --> 00:45:42.190 and competing within China, if you list on Taobao, 00:45:42.269 --> 00:45:45.590 if you list on JD, right? Imagine the competition. 00:45:46.010 --> 00:45:48.710 That sounds stressful already. And imagine the 00:45:48.710 --> 00:45:51.889 cost war that's going on with every single other 00:45:51.889 --> 00:45:56.650 segment of consumer electronic or EV. There's 00:45:56.650 --> 00:45:58.369 a cost war going on everywhere in China because 00:45:58.369 --> 00:46:01.710 it's a manufacturing hub, right? But then when 00:46:01.710 --> 00:46:05.090 you market abroad, the competition drastically 00:46:05.090 --> 00:46:10.989 changes. So out of fear that they decided to 00:46:10.989 --> 00:46:15.739 start with overseas on the get -go, So it wasn't, 00:46:15.739 --> 00:46:18.400 you know, let's try to test it with China. It's 00:46:18.400 --> 00:46:20.840 like, let's try to test it with everyone, expand 00:46:20.840 --> 00:46:25.260 our potential users as much as possible so that 00:46:25.260 --> 00:46:27.099 if one country doesn't work out, and they're 00:46:27.099 --> 00:46:30.800 in, what, 100, 200 countries now. So if one country 00:46:30.800 --> 00:46:35.059 doesn't work out, we're diversifying. And that's 00:46:35.059 --> 00:46:39.019 the reason why they've decided to go with this 00:46:39.019 --> 00:46:43.690 in the beginning. Yeah. competition yeah it is 00:46:43.690 --> 00:46:48.369 quite amazing because insta 360 i definitely 00:46:48.369 --> 00:46:52.389 have heard of it overseas for the first time 00:46:52.389 --> 00:46:56.869 then i i think many many years afterwards i have 00:46:56.869 --> 00:46:59.110 may may have like friends brought it up like 00:46:59.110 --> 00:47:02.329 somewhere skiing like or it was definitely i 00:47:02.329 --> 00:47:04.630 picked it up overseas first before i heard of 00:47:04.630 --> 00:47:07.650 it in china oh yeah i'm the opposite but oh really 00:47:07.650 --> 00:47:11.309 yeah oh because you used it In China, in a Chinese 00:47:11.309 --> 00:47:14.309 ski resort? Yeah. Okay, in 2022. Yeah, I've not 00:47:14.309 --> 00:47:17.969 heard of it overseas. And then they have actually 00:47:17.969 --> 00:47:23.269 sponsored the video photography for a lot of 00:47:23.269 --> 00:47:27.630 major conferences in China. Oh, yeah. Right? 00:47:27.789 --> 00:47:32.389 Yeah. But it's just, that's kind of how, like... 00:47:32.429 --> 00:47:34.750 I don't ski that much, to be honest. I can't 00:47:34.750 --> 00:47:37.369 fake it. So I want to know how popular they are 00:47:37.369 --> 00:47:39.010 in the Chinese ski resort. They were doing non 00:47:39.010 --> 00:47:42.210 -sports events, right? They were at CCTV, like... 00:47:42.210 --> 00:47:44.150 They were doing a lot of indoor activities with 00:47:44.150 --> 00:47:47.969 the VR cameras, right? The annual two sessions. 00:47:49.769 --> 00:47:53.989 And, oh, also, like, during COVID time, the broadcasting 00:47:53.989 --> 00:47:56.909 of that hospital being put together. Oh, that 00:47:56.909 --> 00:48:00.860 was Insta360. That was Insta360. So on this note, 00:48:01.019 --> 00:48:03.179 I think overall they're just really good with 00:48:03.179 --> 00:48:10.880 partnerships. One of the core reasons why I think 00:48:10.880 --> 00:48:13.860 they really made it abroad was because they had 00:48:13.860 --> 00:48:17.159 their eyes on the Apple distribution partnership 00:48:17.159 --> 00:48:21.219 very, very early on. They're one of the first, 00:48:21.360 --> 00:48:25.300 I think if not the first 360 -degree camera for 00:48:25.300 --> 00:48:27.739 sure, but maybe one of the first Chinese companies. 00:48:28.360 --> 00:48:31.679 to have Apple's stamp of approval. And once you 00:48:31.679 --> 00:48:34.219 have that, distributing globally is no issue 00:48:34.219 --> 00:48:37.019 because Apple's known for just being very strict 00:48:37.019 --> 00:48:43.340 on all the QAs and everything, right? And they 00:48:43.340 --> 00:48:46.360 obviously had to go through at least a year of 00:48:46.360 --> 00:48:48.599 back and forth to make sure Apple's happy with 00:48:48.599 --> 00:48:51.159 their product. But once they had that, it's like 00:48:51.159 --> 00:48:55.059 instantly you're open to 100 different countries. 00:48:56.320 --> 00:48:59.320 Distributors would be happy to carry your product. 00:48:59.679 --> 00:49:03.679 And up until this point, I have only heard of 00:49:03.679 --> 00:49:06.579 two brands who have made successful collaborations. 00:49:07.280 --> 00:49:10.659 Those are Chinese brands. One is Insta360. One 00:49:10.659 --> 00:49:14.159 is Anker. That's it. And guess what? I think 00:49:14.159 --> 00:49:19.099 they're the top two electronics brands that is 00:49:19.099 --> 00:49:21.820 going from China to abroad. Yeah. In terms of 00:49:21.820 --> 00:49:25.349 sales. Right. Find the right partnership. That 00:49:25.349 --> 00:49:28.809 is so crucial for them, I guess, making the channel 00:49:28.809 --> 00:49:30.730 sales early on. They also had some interesting 00:49:30.730 --> 00:49:32.849 collaboration with Google before. So there was 00:49:32.849 --> 00:49:37.210 a year, I think it was 2015. That's probably 00:49:37.210 --> 00:49:40.510 when the Google Street View. Oh, yeah, that makes 00:49:40.510 --> 00:49:43.369 sense. Yeah, that's that's Google Street View 00:49:43.369 --> 00:49:47.329 was probably one of the first like immersive 00:49:47.329 --> 00:49:51.909 photography project. Also, very large scale. 00:49:51.929 --> 00:49:54.699 It was like. everywhere in the world right it's 00:49:54.699 --> 00:49:57.480 uh for i guess google street view for those of 00:49:57.480 --> 00:50:00.000 you who doesn't know what it is it's like a google 00:50:00.000 --> 00:50:04.480 maps project right right where they give people 00:50:04.480 --> 00:50:07.239 who sign up i don't know how exactly how it works 00:50:07.239 --> 00:50:11.099 but you carry like a 360 degree camera either 00:50:11.099 --> 00:50:13.280 on your car on yourself and then you walk around 00:50:13.280 --> 00:50:15.780 right and then you'll capture that's that's how 00:50:15.780 --> 00:50:18.500 you get the street views in google maps right 00:50:18.500 --> 00:50:21.719 right and they use They probably used more than 00:50:21.719 --> 00:50:25.559 Insta360. Yes, they probably had a lot of suppliers 00:50:25.559 --> 00:50:29.039 at the time, but Insta360 was the perfect hardware 00:50:29.039 --> 00:50:33.519 for them. Yes. And Google Street View definitely 00:50:33.519 --> 00:50:36.360 featured a lot of Insta360 pictures on the early 00:50:36.360 --> 00:50:39.360 days. And then they partnered with Red Bull, 00:50:39.460 --> 00:50:43.320 which is an obvious choice, with all the extreme 00:50:43.320 --> 00:50:46.320 sports. Right. I heard they partnered with Formula 00:50:46.320 --> 00:50:49.059 One, but I haven't found any information. Okay, 00:50:49.079 --> 00:50:51.880 so you are going to love this because there is 00:50:51.880 --> 00:50:55.480 a video. I discovered that video. GoPro also 00:50:55.480 --> 00:50:58.659 partnered with Formula One as well. And GoPro 00:50:58.659 --> 00:51:01.059 had a video with Daniel Ricciardo. And it was 00:51:01.059 --> 00:51:03.860 just Daniel Ricciardo driving the car very casually. 00:51:04.199 --> 00:51:07.659 I need to see this video. And, you know, showing 00:51:07.659 --> 00:51:10.000 everyone around the neighborhood. And it's very 00:51:10.000 --> 00:51:11.719 soothing. It's not like driving an F1. It's very 00:51:11.719 --> 00:51:14.119 stressful. But they're definitely targeting the 00:51:14.119 --> 00:51:17.139 fans. You can see from the GoPro. channel strategy 00:51:17.139 --> 00:51:21.360 that they have featured all the motorsports like 00:51:21.360 --> 00:51:25.340 ski like skydiving paragliding in the water diving 00:51:25.340 --> 00:51:27.579 like whatever it is that we're going to feature 00:51:27.579 --> 00:51:30.320 the best athletes in the world i do have to say 00:51:30.320 --> 00:51:33.679 like from a channel management point of view 00:51:33.679 --> 00:51:37.400 gopro has a more captivating channel like then 00:51:37.400 --> 00:51:41.300 thing the instant doesn't mean insta360 is not 00:51:41.300 --> 00:51:44.119 doing a good job with all their Partnership relationship. 00:51:44.239 --> 00:51:49.639 So what we're gonna say is so for f1 For Ferrari, 00:51:49.639 --> 00:51:57.119 you can say it. Okay They actually put a camera 00:51:57.119 --> 00:52:03.900 on a Ferrari car who's the driver Yes That's 00:52:03.900 --> 00:52:06.900 right. And where did he where was the car in 00:52:06.900 --> 00:52:10.300 Monaco? Yes. Oh my god. You're right. Yeah, so 00:52:10.780 --> 00:52:14.639 You think I'm better deals. Okay. So I think 00:52:14.639 --> 00:52:17.159 they're pretty on point like for the, for the 00:52:17.159 --> 00:52:21.480 choice of, you know, because Monaco is a difficult 00:52:21.480 --> 00:52:23.760 place to drive in. Like for those who are watching 00:52:23.760 --> 00:52:27.460 F1. Yeah. And they, they captured, it was kind 00:52:27.460 --> 00:52:30.480 of a, just the hot lap that Charlotte Glirk is 00:52:30.480 --> 00:52:33.300 taking you and you see like how fast it is and 00:52:33.300 --> 00:52:35.659 it's not shaky. It's not shaky at all. Of course. 00:52:35.820 --> 00:52:38.480 Yeah. And cause with the flow state stabilization 00:52:38.480 --> 00:52:42.300 technology. Yeah. But you can see that you're 00:52:42.300 --> 00:52:45.159 trying to get some attention from the F1 fans. 00:52:45.300 --> 00:52:48.320 Wait, this is GoPro. Yeah. This is Insta360. 00:52:48.679 --> 00:52:52.539 Insta360 found Ferrari. Yeah. And GoPro found 00:52:52.539 --> 00:52:55.460 Ricciardo. Okay, so competition there. Yeah. 00:52:55.599 --> 00:53:01.679 Yeah. And Insta360 also created some of my favorite 00:53:01.679 --> 00:53:06.260 commercials. And it is not the... Unfortunately, 00:53:06.300 --> 00:53:11.280 it's not the F1 ones. They do have... a, it's 00:53:11.280 --> 00:53:14.900 not Paralympics, but it was a, uh, it was a athlete, 00:53:15.099 --> 00:53:19.960 uh, called Evan Lalane suffering from lower body 00:53:19.960 --> 00:53:25.500 paralysis and Insta360 featured him, uh, trying 00:53:25.500 --> 00:53:29.239 to, you know, like going from being able to walk 00:53:29.239 --> 00:53:31.960 and do everything to, oh, I'm on a wheelchair 00:53:31.960 --> 00:53:34.800 every day right now, but I want to skate. I really 00:53:34.800 --> 00:53:38.860 want to skate. So it was a makeshift, um, sort 00:53:38.860 --> 00:53:43.349 of wheelchair skate that he was on and then he 00:53:43.349 --> 00:53:45.630 put a camera on it, he put an Insta360 on it 00:53:45.630 --> 00:53:49.690 and it just sounds so impossible like when you 00:53:49.690 --> 00:53:52.449 when you're watching that like very short commercial 00:53:52.449 --> 00:53:56.010 at the beginning and it ends with like him being 00:53:56.010 --> 00:53:59.170 able to travel anywhere fluidly And with the 00:53:59.170 --> 00:54:01.630 camera just following him anywhere. And with 00:54:01.630 --> 00:54:04.469 Insta360 finally puts the word on it. Think both. 00:54:04.630 --> 00:54:07.289 I'm crying right now. I can't do it. It was so 00:54:07.289 --> 00:54:09.789 great. It was a very good commercial. It is. 00:54:09.829 --> 00:54:12.989 So I guess both companies are just targeting 00:54:12.989 --> 00:54:16.949 different athletes. But the same idea. You get 00:54:16.949 --> 00:54:20.309 the athletes who already have a pretty big following 00:54:20.309 --> 00:54:22.889 to look at the videos. And then they realize, 00:54:23.050 --> 00:54:25.550 oh, this camera is cool. This angle is cool. 00:54:25.769 --> 00:54:29.119 I want to get the... The gadget. Yeah, the gadget. 00:54:29.260 --> 00:54:31.800 Which one of the partnerships or brand ambassadors 00:54:31.800 --> 00:54:35.820 that you like the most with Insta360? I actually 00:54:35.820 --> 00:54:39.380 haven't done too much research. The one that's 00:54:39.380 --> 00:54:41.900 really famous I heard about is Will Smith. Well, 00:54:41.920 --> 00:54:46.139 yeah. And yes, but... But obviously nowadays, 00:54:46.340 --> 00:54:51.280 now that you told me about Formula One, Ferrari. 00:54:52.019 --> 00:54:56.599 There is one that you may actually know and like. 00:54:57.079 --> 00:55:01.199 So an American professional snowboarder and a 00:55:01.199 --> 00:55:03.880 skateboarder. He is a five -time Olympian and 00:55:03.880 --> 00:55:06.860 a three -time Olympic medalist in half -pipe 00:55:06.860 --> 00:55:09.780 snowboarding. Oh, oh, oh, oh, Sean White. Yes, 00:55:09.840 --> 00:55:13.159 Sean White. So Sean White is actually probably 00:55:13.159 --> 00:55:16.739 the most influential sort of celebrity slash 00:55:16.739 --> 00:55:18.860 athlete that they've worked with. And Sean White 00:55:18.860 --> 00:55:21.719 really liked using Insta360 as well. He took 00:55:21.719 --> 00:55:23.219 it everywhere. And in fact, there was a Sean 00:55:23.219 --> 00:55:27.170 White kit at Insta360. it's not like just the 00:55:27.170 --> 00:55:29.170 poles like that you can you can you can hold 00:55:29.170 --> 00:55:32.449 up it's a strap like you can wear it and then 00:55:32.449 --> 00:55:34.010 you can put the camera just like right right 00:55:34.010 --> 00:55:35.630 at the center of your chest and then you can 00:55:35.630 --> 00:55:38.530 just like do your thing and just be stable and 00:55:38.530 --> 00:55:41.289 then just go on the ski snowboarding slopes i'm 00:55:41.289 --> 00:55:43.530 gonna look this up right after i'm just a huge 00:55:43.530 --> 00:55:45.590 fan of shantelight i don't skateboard but or 00:55:45.590 --> 00:55:49.030 or snowboarding but yeah But he's great. No, 00:55:49.130 --> 00:55:52.030 no, none of us can do halfpipe. But we like watching. 00:55:52.250 --> 00:55:56.230 I can do halfpipe rolling. Not so much snowboarding. 00:55:56.670 --> 00:55:58.909 I can roll my back and roll down the halfpipe. 00:55:59.130 --> 00:56:04.250 Get on my back and just like fly. Cool. So very 00:56:04.250 --> 00:56:09.849 good use of celebrities and influencers for marketing 00:56:09.849 --> 00:56:12.510 on both sides. Yeah, on both sides. And it's 00:56:12.510 --> 00:56:15.250 not that there is not competition. There is always 00:56:15.250 --> 00:56:17.829 competition. GoPro is always there. And in fact, 00:56:17.829 --> 00:56:22.210 today, if people are looking for very durable, 00:56:22.449 --> 00:56:26.630 stable sports cameras, a lot of people will still 00:56:26.630 --> 00:56:29.869 buy GoPro. The market share is still okay. But 00:56:29.869 --> 00:56:35.050 you do see Insta360's innovation is getting a 00:56:35.050 --> 00:56:37.650 lot more market share than before, and it's growing 00:56:37.650 --> 00:56:40.469 very rapidly because of how fast they innovate. 00:56:40.909 --> 00:56:45.090 So basically, they started off, Really making 00:56:45.090 --> 00:56:49.010 revenue 2016, I want to say. It says 30 million 00:56:49.010 --> 00:56:56.170 in 2018. And by 2020, it's 1 .120. 120 million 00:56:56.170 --> 00:57:00.489 US dollars. And that's when they filed the prospectus 00:57:00.489 --> 00:57:07.650 or the registration. And in 2021, that's 1 .8, 00:57:07.769 --> 00:57:12.090 right? So like 50 % growth year over year, not 00:57:12.090 --> 00:57:16.539 bad. 2022 it's really good yeah but wait for 00:57:16.539 --> 00:57:22.360 it um guess what 2024 which is uh like four years 00:57:22.360 --> 00:57:29.739 later so 750 750 million which is compared to 00:57:29.739 --> 00:57:33.960 when they filed the ipo to today to last year 00:57:33.960 --> 00:57:38.599 uh it's What, five something times? Yeah. More 00:57:38.599 --> 00:57:40.800 than five times. More than five times in four 00:57:40.800 --> 00:57:44.440 years. Yeah. And the two years in between, they 00:57:44.440 --> 00:57:46.980 claim that they double, almost double every year, 00:57:47.119 --> 00:57:52.699 2021, 2022, 2023. By last year, I think is when 00:57:52.699 --> 00:57:56.440 they reached kind of 60, 70 % market share in 00:57:56.440 --> 00:58:00.760 the 360 kind of panoramic camera market, right? 00:58:00.880 --> 00:58:04.159 They're still not. they're still not on the top. 00:58:04.219 --> 00:58:05.619 I don't know if they're second or third in the 00:58:05.619 --> 00:58:07.980 action sports camera, but they're the first in 00:58:07.980 --> 00:58:11.239 360. And so at this pace, and this year their 00:58:11.239 --> 00:58:14.860 anticipated growth is another, say, 40 % -ish, 00:58:14.980 --> 00:58:16.860 right? Remain the same speed. So at this pace, 00:58:16.860 --> 00:58:19.340 whereas if you compare it to GoPro, which is, 00:58:19.460 --> 00:58:23.440 I guess it's kind of incumbent's issue, if they 00:58:23.440 --> 00:58:25.760 continue at this pace, they might be able to 00:58:25.760 --> 00:58:29.880 get a majority share in the action market, in 00:58:29.880 --> 00:58:32.780 the action camera market very soon. So it is 00:58:32.780 --> 00:58:37.159 a pretty big threat. To GoPro. To GoPro and to 00:58:37.159 --> 00:58:42.440 DJI, who's also in the industry. And I think, 00:58:42.659 --> 00:58:45.619 yeah, if I'm getting this number correct, they 00:58:45.619 --> 00:58:49.159 might already have 80 % market share in 360 -degree 00:58:49.159 --> 00:58:51.260 cameras. Right, that sounds about right. Yeah. 00:58:51.699 --> 00:58:54.420 Very large player on the 360 -degree camera, 00:58:54.559 --> 00:58:56.940 and sports camera also getting more attention 00:58:56.940 --> 00:59:00.699 here. I don't know if you checked the most recent 00:59:00.699 --> 00:59:03.460 stock price for the GoPro. It's not looking very 00:59:03.460 --> 00:59:06.260 great. And I can imagine this probably reflects 00:59:06.260 --> 00:59:09.800 how much they're selling, like in terms of their 00:59:09.800 --> 00:59:14.260 sheer volume of cameras that are selling. But 00:59:14.260 --> 00:59:16.800 actually, so one thing to know, GoPro is still 00:59:16.800 --> 00:59:19.440 making more revenue. Yeah, true, true, true. 00:59:20.559 --> 00:59:23.420 I think GoPro is almost, not double, but like 00:59:23.420 --> 00:59:27.159 one point something times the revenue of Insta360. 00:59:27.739 --> 00:59:32.159 But the profitability, actually in 2023, I think 00:59:32.159 --> 00:59:35.039 they reported a loss. Can you imagine like GoPro, 00:59:35.280 --> 00:59:38.019 a company that started in 2002, is struggling. 00:59:40.400 --> 00:59:43.039 And DJI maybe we'll cover in a different session. 00:59:43.469 --> 00:59:45.510 Like, that is a vastly complicated company that 00:59:45.510 --> 00:59:47.389 we have to dissect some other time. Exactly. 00:59:47.389 --> 00:59:49.829 With so many different products. Exactly. Yeah. 00:59:50.030 --> 00:59:52.429 When JK say, we don't want to compete in China, 00:59:52.530 --> 00:59:53.869 this is the company that he's talking about. 00:59:54.530 --> 00:59:56.130 He doesn't want to compete with those people. 00:59:56.269 --> 00:59:59.829 Yeah, of course. DJI, yeah. Yeah, and they're 00:59:59.829 --> 01:00:02.230 both in Shenzhen. Oh, are they? Yeah, they're 01:00:02.230 --> 01:00:04.909 both specializing in, like, some sort of... But 01:00:04.909 --> 01:00:07.849 DJI started way before them, right? Yes, DJI 01:00:07.849 --> 01:00:10.449 started way before them. But they specialized 01:00:10.449 --> 01:00:15.239 in drones. Yes. Like not the same kind. They 01:00:15.239 --> 01:00:17.400 not only specialize in drone, they probably own 01:00:17.400 --> 01:00:20.760 the drone market globally at this stage. Yes. 01:00:20.980 --> 01:00:24.420 Different topic. So what other interesting things 01:00:24.420 --> 01:00:27.000 have you captured in the prospectus? Other than 01:00:27.000 --> 01:00:29.300 the fact that it took them four years, there's 01:00:29.300 --> 01:00:31.539 also kind of a media fiasco. Like he went on 01:00:31.539 --> 01:00:35.010 Weibo. You know that he went on Weibo to accuse 01:00:35.010 --> 01:00:42.010 the regulatory commission saying that, guys, 01:00:42.050 --> 01:00:46.929 it's been four years. Hello? Should I look elsewhere? 01:00:47.269 --> 01:00:51.050 Because at that point, his company already grew 01:00:51.050 --> 01:00:55.610 so much, right? And I guess we didn't cover this 01:00:55.610 --> 01:00:57.349 before. When he applied, he actually didn't apply 01:00:57.349 --> 01:00:59.449 for the Shanghai Stock Exchange main board. He 01:00:59.449 --> 01:01:02.289 applied for the Star board, which is the kind 01:01:02.289 --> 01:01:06.170 of the newer tech, the new tech, lower requirements. 01:01:06.969 --> 01:01:09.750 And at that point, he already satisfied every 01:01:09.750 --> 01:01:12.570 requirement on profitability, on growth, on everything, 01:01:12.650 --> 01:01:16.250 on R &D spending. It's not because of requirement 01:01:16.250 --> 01:01:21.079 that they... temporarily halted their IPO. It's 01:01:21.079 --> 01:01:25.599 because of a potential insider question, right? 01:01:25.940 --> 01:01:28.320 That they didn't report on time. But there's 01:01:28.320 --> 01:01:30.239 different, you know, different sides have different 01:01:30.239 --> 01:01:34.000 stories. But basically, he said, you know, when 01:01:34.000 --> 01:01:37.719 I filed this request to IPO, I already satisfied 01:01:37.719 --> 01:01:41.429 your requirements. four, five years later, I 01:01:41.429 --> 01:01:43.250 more than satisfy your requirement. Except by 01:01:43.250 --> 01:01:46.530 a lot. Yeah, in fact, had I been IPO'd, I would 01:01:46.530 --> 01:01:48.849 be in your top five right now. Exactly. Top 5 01:01:48.849 --> 01:01:53.630 % right now. So, like, what's up, guys? There's, 01:01:53.630 --> 01:01:56.449 like, Hong Kong Stock Exchange and Nasdaq. That's, 01:01:56.449 --> 01:01:59.690 you know, they can also take my money. So, are 01:01:59.690 --> 01:02:02.690 you going to take my money? So, shortly after 01:02:02.690 --> 01:02:06.260 this whole, like, media outlet on Weibo, They 01:02:06.260 --> 01:02:07.800 actually got a response. I don't know if it's 01:02:07.800 --> 01:02:10.539 because of this. But he got a response. But a 01:02:10.539 --> 01:02:13.699 few months later, they announced that, okay, 01:02:13.800 --> 01:02:17.739 we have approved. Yeah. So that's... Anything 01:02:17.739 --> 01:02:21.219 interesting you've... Well, so about the rapid 01:02:21.219 --> 01:02:25.539 growth that they were able to achieve after 2020, 01:02:25.780 --> 01:02:29.460 according to the declared market share, it seems 01:02:29.460 --> 01:02:33.059 that... The China one, China market was very 01:02:33.059 --> 01:02:34.780 fast growing, like internally. They may have 01:02:34.780 --> 01:02:37.920 started outside, but the China market is right 01:02:37.920 --> 01:02:41.920 now accounts for about half of the sales for 01:02:41.920 --> 01:02:44.260 them as well. And it's still growing. Wow. And 01:02:44.260 --> 01:02:46.619 followed by the U .S. and there's also Europe. 01:02:46.699 --> 01:02:51.860 In fact, I think they are doing really well in 01:02:51.860 --> 01:02:54.010 some of the countries that... Chinese consumer 01:02:54.010 --> 01:02:55.730 electronics brands are just not able to achieve 01:02:55.730 --> 01:02:58.170 the same results like the US and Europe. So, 01:02:58.170 --> 01:03:00.690 you know, like I think there's just more people 01:03:00.690 --> 01:03:05.329 like who are out there with sports and athletic 01:03:05.329 --> 01:03:08.670 equipment use. Yeah. Like who are in those markets. 01:03:08.869 --> 01:03:12.710 I mean, I also attribute it to them thinking 01:03:12.710 --> 01:03:16.329 about the global market early because I think 01:03:16.329 --> 01:03:19.880 they started expanding. As soon as the company 01:03:19.880 --> 01:03:22.039 set up, they started setting up overseas entities. 01:03:22.360 --> 01:03:24.980 And the first few years, they're actually not 01:03:24.980 --> 01:03:27.179 doing that well because they need to hire locally. 01:03:27.340 --> 01:03:29.639 They need to figure out as a Chinese company 01:03:29.639 --> 01:03:32.719 with only folks. And he never studied abroad 01:03:32.719 --> 01:03:35.400 or anything, right? Which is crazy. His founding 01:03:35.400 --> 01:03:38.539 team never did. So establishing a U .S. company 01:03:38.539 --> 01:03:42.019 and selling your products and really resonating 01:03:42.019 --> 01:03:44.739 with the U .S. audience is actually quite difficult. 01:03:46.780 --> 01:03:49.900 for five years to work on this, it's when, you 01:03:49.900 --> 01:03:54.199 know, 2019, 2020 hit that they managed to pull 01:03:54.199 --> 01:03:56.760 this off. Yeah. And can I just tell something 01:03:56.760 --> 01:04:00.059 from my personal experience? So I was in CES 01:04:00.059 --> 01:04:03.940 in 2000, last year, so 2024. How'd you get the 01:04:03.940 --> 01:04:07.679 ticket? It was work that I get the ticket. So 01:04:07.679 --> 01:04:11.699 out of the 4 ,000 -some attendee brands who were 01:04:11.699 --> 01:04:14.059 there, about a quarter of them are from China. 01:04:14.239 --> 01:04:17.260 And so Insta360 was one of the very few brands 01:04:17.260 --> 01:04:21.400 who actually have a very international crew at 01:04:21.400 --> 01:04:24.019 the stand. But the other brands are not doing 01:04:24.019 --> 01:04:25.920 the same. The other brands mostly have Chinese 01:04:25.920 --> 01:04:29.260 representing them. I guess on the internationalization 01:04:29.260 --> 01:04:33.400 of the brand, you can't just sell your brands 01:04:33.400 --> 01:04:36.860 to the market. You actually have to have a relatively 01:04:36.860 --> 01:04:40.000 international crew to be able to be a global 01:04:40.000 --> 01:04:43.340 company, to be able to have all the interesting 01:04:43.340 --> 01:04:46.500 audiences so another takeaway and also like if 01:04:46.500 --> 01:04:49.579 you look at the on the prospectus uh at the back 01:04:49.579 --> 01:04:52.199 of the list with all the company uh sort of partnerships 01:04:52.199 --> 01:04:55.139 you do see a lot of like non -Chinese names yeah 01:04:55.139 --> 01:04:58.460 it's listed which is pretty rare yeah yeah they 01:04:58.460 --> 01:05:01.219 they go out of the way to to do these collaborations 01:05:01.219 --> 01:05:04.059 and some of the shareholders are also non -Chinese 01:05:04.059 --> 01:05:08.239 as well why do we think Insta360 ascended or 01:05:08.239 --> 01:05:10.599 maybe ascended yeah I've listed a few though 01:05:11.679 --> 01:05:15.980 Okay, so the first one, obviously, is that he's 01:05:15.980 --> 01:05:20.079 a genius and he doesn't need to sleep. Physically 01:05:20.079 --> 01:05:25.139 better. But no, from the very beginning of this 01:05:25.139 --> 01:05:27.699 show, we talked about his early ventures. So 01:05:27.699 --> 01:05:30.920 you know this guy is going somewhere, right? 01:05:31.039 --> 01:05:34.900 Like the amount of ventures or the amount of 01:05:34.900 --> 01:05:39.159 entrepreneurship stuff he did. even before graduating 01:05:39.159 --> 01:05:43.019 from university. So anecdotally, it says for 01:05:43.019 --> 01:05:44.780 the first six months that they're developing 01:05:44.780 --> 01:05:47.239 a product, he does like the team sleeps three 01:05:47.239 --> 01:05:51.699 to four hours a day. And the first, the series 01:05:51.699 --> 01:05:54.800 A and series B, it was told that they signed 01:05:54.800 --> 01:05:58.400 both contracts with the investors on Chinese 01:05:58.400 --> 01:06:00.619 New Year's Eve. And living in China, you know, 01:06:00.639 --> 01:06:03.039 nobody works on Chinese New Year's Eve, right? 01:06:03.079 --> 01:06:05.559 For them to sign two contracts in two different 01:06:05.559 --> 01:06:08.849 years. It means that I'm working hard. Work ethics. 01:06:09.289 --> 01:06:13.329 Exactly. That's entrepreneurship, work ethics. 01:06:13.630 --> 01:06:16.630 Yeah. What's number one? What's your number one? 01:06:18.250 --> 01:06:22.190 Well, I'm going to go back to the very cliche 01:06:22.190 --> 01:06:24.469 kind of the right person at the right time just 01:06:24.469 --> 01:06:27.289 happened to be doing the right thing. I think 01:06:27.289 --> 01:06:31.929 he's the right person. When you look at his video, 01:06:32.210 --> 01:06:35.820 there was a very short video of him. after he 01:06:35.820 --> 01:06:39.079 graduated from college on YouTube. And he didn't 01:06:39.079 --> 01:06:41.559 even start Insta360 at that time. But you can 01:06:41.559 --> 01:06:43.679 just see something in his eyes that is different. 01:06:43.719 --> 01:06:46.980 The way that he talks is so composed. It's so 01:06:46.980 --> 01:06:51.800 calm. And he is probably just 18 or 19 tops. 01:06:52.260 --> 01:06:56.039 But the thing that he says about like building 01:06:56.039 --> 01:06:59.420 a startup sounds like as if he has been through 01:06:59.420 --> 01:07:03.800 decades of business, like how he wanted it. you 01:07:03.800 --> 01:07:05.860 know, trust people, what kind of products that 01:07:05.860 --> 01:07:09.679 he wants to build. It just, like... You have 01:07:09.679 --> 01:07:11.980 a belief. He's very sophisticated. And he has 01:07:11.980 --> 01:07:14.679 a belief, for sure. So there's that. Like, he 01:07:14.679 --> 01:07:17.019 just oozes a different vibe than a lot of other 01:07:17.019 --> 01:07:18.679 people. And he's not doing this very lightly. 01:07:18.820 --> 01:07:20.719 He has an intention of doing it as well. Yeah. 01:07:20.739 --> 01:07:25.059 So that's number one. Yeah. Okay. Okay. And to 01:07:25.059 --> 01:07:27.199 add to your point, actually, I think his co -founder, 01:07:27.340 --> 01:07:29.460 who actually did the live streaming business 01:07:29.460 --> 01:07:32.179 with him, said that, you know, this guy is... 01:07:32.480 --> 01:07:36.500 Someone you're willing to follow. Because you 01:07:36.500 --> 01:07:38.280 have that charisma. You have that leadership. 01:07:38.619 --> 01:07:43.460 The determination. And the ideas. So my second 01:07:43.460 --> 01:07:47.599 one is actually. I attribute the success of Insta360 01:07:47.599 --> 01:07:51.260 these days. To the fact that they've decided 01:07:51.260 --> 01:07:56.800 back in 2015, 2016. To have global market as 01:07:56.800 --> 01:07:59.179 their user base. Rather than the domestic market. 01:07:59.739 --> 01:08:03.889 And having that. ambition having that decision 01:08:03.889 --> 01:08:07.909 makes a big difference target globally yeah if 01:08:07.909 --> 01:08:10.730 he has started in china not sure if he can survive 01:08:10.730 --> 01:08:13.750 yeah yeah not sure if i could survive and also 01:08:13.750 --> 01:08:16.510 not sure if he would get the market share that 01:08:16.510 --> 01:08:20.810 he has today yeah yeah for sure um i guess my 01:08:20.810 --> 01:08:26.229 second point is he had no hardware experience 01:08:26.229 --> 01:08:30.520 and i think he may have went through a thinking 01:08:30.520 --> 01:08:34.880 process of, he likes content, like obviously 01:08:34.880 --> 01:08:40.000 he likes watching videos and he likes the content 01:08:40.000 --> 01:08:44.859 and he somehow maybe projects the future of camera 01:08:44.859 --> 01:08:49.760 and of our eyes, how we'll be posting things 01:08:49.760 --> 01:08:55.039 on social media will not be very 2D. So he wanted 01:08:55.039 --> 01:09:01.880 to create a tool for people to use to make better 01:09:01.880 --> 01:09:07.260 photography possible. So I think that was a very 01:09:07.260 --> 01:09:12.180 bold move. And because he was in China, the ability, 01:09:12.359 --> 01:09:16.760 he was able to realize that in Shenzhen at a 01:09:16.760 --> 01:09:19.899 relatively reasonable cost, that the product 01:09:19.899 --> 01:09:26.260 can be created. So it is a bold move. But with 01:09:26.260 --> 01:09:28.939 all the resources and the conditions with Shenzhen, 01:09:28.960 --> 01:09:31.739 everything was made possible. So right move on 01:09:31.739 --> 01:09:36.180 him. So I agree with half of that. So the Shenzhen 01:09:36.180 --> 01:09:39.039 part I agree with. The fact that he is at the 01:09:39.039 --> 01:09:45.560 cost center, lower cost of production. I'm not 01:09:45.560 --> 01:09:50.489 sure if it was that bold of a move. maybe in 01:09:50.489 --> 01:09:52.250 the first two years while they're figuring out 01:09:52.250 --> 01:09:55.109 the market. But by the time they realize that 01:09:55.109 --> 01:09:57.529 I'm going to compete with GoPro MAX, I'm going 01:09:57.529 --> 01:10:01.909 to do this 360 and target the sports enthusiasts. 01:10:03.149 --> 01:10:05.449 At that point, I feel like the market is there. 01:10:05.869 --> 01:10:07.890 He knows the market is there and that's why he 01:10:07.890 --> 01:10:11.210 went in. It's not going in blind anymore. It's 01:10:11.210 --> 01:10:14.489 more calculated than you think. Obviously, there's 01:10:14.489 --> 01:10:18.010 still a risk of how can I get my brand out versus 01:10:18.010 --> 01:10:21.970 an established brand. DJI at that point also 01:10:21.970 --> 01:10:25.729 has a fair presence. How do I compete against 01:10:25.729 --> 01:10:27.630 these giants? How do I compete against Samsung? 01:10:28.569 --> 01:10:31.510 But the target audience is definitely already 01:10:31.510 --> 01:10:37.810 there. Third point, which is... actually just 01:10:37.810 --> 01:10:41.390 partnerships in general because i think it's 01:10:41.390 --> 01:10:47.949 just leveraging other folks um he he knows i 01:10:47.949 --> 01:10:51.569 guess how to approach or like the company basically 01:10:51.569 --> 01:10:54.489 made some right decisions in terms of yes apple 01:10:54.489 --> 01:10:58.010 is really hard to partner with as a hardware 01:10:58.010 --> 01:11:02.460 company they're quite stringent um And so they 01:11:02.460 --> 01:11:05.439 probably spend a lot of cost in terms of developing 01:11:05.439 --> 01:11:08.399 the product for Apple. Because I think there's 01:11:08.399 --> 01:11:11.920 a story around how Nano, because of the 3 .5 01:11:11.920 --> 01:11:16.399 millimeter jack, has to actually release itself 01:11:16.399 --> 01:11:20.520 when it's hit with a 10KG force or something. 01:11:20.619 --> 01:11:22.600 Something along that lines, right? So it's like 01:11:22.600 --> 01:11:27.039 Apple, I need to make sure you... All my products 01:11:27.039 --> 01:11:30.920 satisfy this criteria. And for any hardware producers 01:11:30.920 --> 01:11:34.420 to make that, it's difficult. They have to tailor 01:11:34.420 --> 01:11:36.899 toward that one need. And it probably took them 01:11:36.899 --> 01:11:39.640 a few months. I'm just guessing it probably took 01:11:39.640 --> 01:11:43.319 them a while to satisfy that one criteria. And 01:11:43.319 --> 01:11:46.300 I'm guessing Apple probably had a couple. So 01:11:46.300 --> 01:11:49.220 for them to actually go through with this takes 01:11:49.220 --> 01:11:52.100 a lot of determination. Yeah. But this makes 01:11:52.100 --> 01:11:55.350 so much sense, right? Because... You want to 01:11:55.350 --> 01:11:58.029 be making friends that can potentially uplift 01:11:58.029 --> 01:12:02.529 you. Partnerships that can make you go up. Especially 01:12:02.529 --> 01:12:05.770 business partnerships. You don't want to be making 01:12:05.770 --> 01:12:09.229 a friend that's with its impact or with its awareness 01:12:09.229 --> 01:12:11.449 much lower than you. If that's the case, then 01:12:11.449 --> 01:12:13.909 you want someone that is much larger than you. 01:12:14.010 --> 01:12:15.810 And Apple, even though everyone knows that this 01:12:15.810 --> 01:12:18.229 is the hardest friend to make, but they still 01:12:18.229 --> 01:12:21.229 try to make it, shows determination and ends 01:12:21.229 --> 01:12:23.750 up having the great partnership and ends up... 01:12:24.090 --> 01:12:26.189 lifting them to such a good sales record for 01:12:26.189 --> 01:12:27.789 the first couple of years. So it's definitely 01:12:27.789 --> 01:12:30.729 worth it. Yeah, so that determination to get 01:12:30.729 --> 01:12:33.869 the right partnerships. Yeah, I agree. And my 01:12:33.869 --> 01:12:36.029 third one, as you have already mentioned before, 01:12:36.130 --> 01:12:38.689 it's at the right place. Like, starting in China, 01:12:38.750 --> 01:12:41.989 make it in China, but sell it overseas. That's 01:12:41.989 --> 01:12:44.689 a great plan. And at the right time, too, because 01:12:44.689 --> 01:12:51.960 2016 is when VR was a thing. Yeah. google glasses 01:12:51.960 --> 01:12:56.659 not glasses the cardboard right um and like what's 01:12:56.659 --> 01:12:59.399 it called the dream like daydream daydream that 01:12:59.399 --> 01:13:04.239 was the name um and there's also a lot of investors 01:13:04.239 --> 01:13:06.960 like that was before the chinese investment funding 01:13:06.960 --> 01:13:10.180 dried up yeah that was the high time of vc investment 01:13:10.180 --> 01:13:14.819 exactly so so timing is also very important yeah 01:13:14.819 --> 01:13:20.000 without idg and without lee feng like who was 01:13:20.560 --> 01:13:24.460 like, the mastermind behind, like, behind all 01:13:24.460 --> 01:13:25.939 of their growth and giving them money. Like, 01:13:25.979 --> 01:13:27.720 this wouldn't have happened. And one thing about 01:13:27.720 --> 01:13:29.500 Li Feng, he's very interesting. Maybe there will 01:13:29.500 --> 01:13:32.460 be, like, in the future episodes, maybe we'll 01:13:32.460 --> 01:13:34.779 mention him again. He had invested in a lot of 01:13:34.779 --> 01:13:38.979 companies before. Give me some names. Sanji Songshu. 01:13:39.319 --> 01:13:41.399 Oh! Yeah, he invested in that, which is a... 01:13:41.399 --> 01:13:43.239 Well, that's very different. It's a nut snack 01:13:43.239 --> 01:13:44.380 company. It's not tech at all. Yeah, it's not 01:13:44.380 --> 01:13:48.119 tech. Macadamia, like, nuts. Nuts, basically 01:13:48.119 --> 01:13:52.210 nuts. And he invested in Bilibili. Okay. Yeah. 01:13:52.289 --> 01:13:57.149 He has invested in Unity. Oh, gaming. Yeah. He 01:13:57.149 --> 01:13:59.409 has invested in that. And he has also invested 01:13:59.409 --> 01:14:05.029 in Coinbase. And he has also invested in Didap, 01:14:05.050 --> 01:14:10.729 which is a carpooling app that started with two 01:14:10.729 --> 01:14:12.630 Googlers. They used to work for Google. Okay. 01:14:12.789 --> 01:14:15.340 Yeah. Yeah, everything comes in full circle. 01:14:15.579 --> 01:14:18.159 I know. It's like the first thing you should 01:14:18.159 --> 01:14:20.520 know around that time if you need investments. 01:14:20.960 --> 01:14:24.520 Yeah, for sure. Wow. If you are also interested 01:14:24.520 --> 01:14:28.260 in Insta360 and you have heard of their stories 01:14:28.260 --> 01:14:33.180 before, feel free to leave us messages or comments. 01:14:33.220 --> 01:14:36.020 But it's been a very fun process researching 01:14:36.020 --> 01:14:38.420 for the company. Definitely. And if we got anything 01:14:38.420 --> 01:14:41.270 wrong, please just... Let us know because obviously 01:14:41.270 --> 01:14:45.970 this is all internet research. So yeah, let us 01:14:45.970 --> 01:14:48.029 know and we'll correct it next episode.