Hey everyone, welcome to Seneca Lake Mysteries,
the podcast where we explore the unusual, strange,
and unexplained on New York's largest Finger
Lake. Thanks so much for listening. Before I
get to my guest and the on location episode I
recorded for this time around, I first want to...
talk about. Last episode I did a segment on companies
in the Seneca Lake area who produce wines, ciders,
beers, and spirits that celebrate the mysteries
of Seneca Lake. So quickly this time I want to
give another shout out to a local group that
also acknowledges one of the Seneca League mysteries
in a big way. It's a box lacrosse team that plays
in the North American Box Lacrosse League, the
NABLL. And for those who don't know, box lacrosse
is the indoor version of field lacrosse played
in hockey rinks and similar smaller venues. The
NABLL is a semi -pro league, meaning that many
of the players are paid little if at all. There's
currently 40 teams across the country in 10 different
regions with three to five teams per region and
the way it works, they play the regular season
in the summer and then the champions of each
region travel to one location for the playoffs
and they crown the league champion. The teams
are really powered and funded by local businesses
and communities. with a strong emphasis on growing
the sport of box lacrosse. So there's a real
kind of DIY spirit that I love. And you get to
see some really talented players on these teams
from college age on up. So back in the summer
of 2024, a new NABLL team began playing in Geneva
at the Geneva Rec Center. And that team is called
the Seneca Lake Serpents. And of course, there's
a few reasons why I love this. Number one, sports
teams are usually thought to play for their communities.
So the Boston Red Sox are representing the Boston
community. The Chicago Bears play for the people
of Chicago, et cetera. So I guess this means
that the Seneca Lake Serpents are playing for
the people of Seneca Lake. And that's got to
be pretty rare for a team to name their home
as a landscape feature. the serpents are Seneca
Lake's team. And second reason, obviously the
name, it's so cool to see the Seneca Lake monster
slash Seneca Lake serpent legend being acknowledged
and celebrated. And of course, finally, the game
of lacrosse is known as the medicine game by
native people. It's the belief that lacrosse
is more than just a sport. It's a sacred practice
that is healing and holds deep spiritual importance
and it's seen as a gift from the creator used
to restore balance and uh well -being in the
individuals and communities that play so the
2025 season for the serpents begins on june 14th
saturday with a 5 p .m home game at the geneva
rec center at 666 exchange street in geneva versus
another team with a cryptid -related name, the
Utica Yeti. So if you want to see an exciting,
hard -hitting, fast -paced sport played by guys
who truly love the game, then get yourself over
to the Rec Center for the game, and I'll put
a link in the description to the Seneca Lake
Serpents Instagram, which is at Seneca Lake Serpents
LC. So I am very excited for this episode. For
this time around, I met up with Soraya Azkath,
who's the host of the Where Did the Road Go podcast,
and also the last Exit for the Lost Underground
music podcast. And we met up at the cemetery
for the former Willard State Hospital, aka the
Willard Asylum. So I was a guest on Soraya's
podcast recently, which we recorded at the foot
of the hill below the cemetery. So this time,
for the first episode that I'm going to do about
Willard, we met up the hill in the cemetery on
a beautiful sunny June evening. Now Willard Cemetery
is an unusual place and Saraya has a lot to tell
us about it because as a teenager growing up
in the area he and his friends spent hours and
hours hanging around there and as a fellow upstate
New Yorker who grew up in a rural area I can
definitely relate to being a teen and finding
a somewhat hidden or rarely visited spot to while
away the hours away from the grown -ups while
being a kid and with Soraya's many hours spent
in the Willard Cemetery come a whole slew of
incredible, high -strangeness experiences that
he was happy to share with me and all of you
as we sat in the corner of the cemetery. We ended
up speaking for a long time, so much time that
I separated the interview into two parts which
are close to an hour each. So this is only part
one. Part two will be in the next episode. I
also want to tell a little story of what happened
when I arrived there. So I pulled up to the parking
area at the bottom of the hill next to the cemetery
and there was a large pickup truck there with
a flatbed behind it. It looked like it was a
landscaping company. So as soon as I pulled up
I started thinking, are they mowing this cemetery
up here? Got out of my car and off in the distance
I could hear the sound of a mower. And I thought
to myself, oh, just this is just perfect. We
the one day that we picked to visit this cemetery
is the day that they're mowing this big 15 acre
cemetery. I wasn't sure if we were going to be
able to do the podcast. I wasn't sure how far
along he was with the mowing. So I walked up
the hill and took a look and I saw that there
was a guy on the big mower off one of the towards
the further end of the cemetery. And it looked
like he was almost completed with the whole place.
So I figured, well, he should be finishing up
soon. I got there a little early. I was meeting
Sarai at six. I got there around five thirty.
So I grabbed the equipment, a couple of chairs
and set up a spot to record the podcast. Now,
as I right after I finished setting up, the lawnmower
started coming toward me. The guy driving it
was was coming over to. See what I was doing.
I wasn't sure why he was coming over. So as he's
coming over he was taking pictures with his phone
and then and then pulled up next to me and shut
off the engine and Just started chatting, you
know He was telling me I asked him how long he
was there mowing and he said that he had started
mowing at about seven o 'clock that morning He
asked me if I was a photographer what I was doing
there I told him no we're recording a podcast
and he told me that His wife was really interested
in this place and she was asking him to take
pictures while he was here. And he asked me,
what do you know about this cemetery? Do you
know anything about it? And I said, as a matter
of fact, I do. I'm here to do a podcast about
it. And I told them about the history of the
cemetery. And then we're chatting a little bit
more. And he mentioned, it's so hot. I'm so hot
right now. I could go jump in that lake. And
then he asked me, isn't that lake really deep
or something. Do you know anything about the
lake? Well, as a matter of fact, I do. And I
told him how it was, uh, you know, the deepest
lake east of the Mississippi, not including the
Great Lakes. And then we just started chatting
a little bit more. He was talking about, we were
just talking about getting older and how fast
it goes by and how, how in your head you can
still feel like it was years ago and, and how
memories stay with you. And And then out of nowhere,
he brought up, he said, you know that there's
some kind of physics like quantum theory or something
that that time isn't even real, that it doesn't
even exist. He's like, I think I might believe
in that. What about you? Well, as a matter of
fact, I do. I was kind of kind of surprised that
I, you know, this guy came over on a on the lawnmower
and I wasn't expecting to start talking about
whether time is real or not with him. So it was
really cool. And then we chatted a little bit
more. He told me some stuff about his own personal
spiritual beliefs and journey, and I'm not going
to get into that stuff here. So he said his name
was Randy and he said he had one small spot to
finish mowing. And so he finished up that little
bit and said good night to me. And he left just
a few minutes before Saraya arrived. Soraya got
there. We sat down. We got ready started recording
the podcast and after about 15 minutes or so
we heard long weird Lawnmower or something coming
up the hill and we turned around it was actually
the pickup truck he was he came back up the hill
in his truck with the flatbed on in the mower
on the back and told us that he had dropped his
phone while he was speaking with me and so So
I ended up you can you can hear the edit point
where I edit the podcast because we we stopped
for a few minutes and Soraya called his phone
helped him find his phone and then he took off
so that was a it was a really really cool and
interesting encounter and so shout out to Randy
I don't know if he's listening to this or not
but I I really appreciated our our chat so um
so let's get into it Soraya is like I mentioned
he's host of where did the road go? Which is
a podcast that deals with the unexplained fringe
subjects that kind of stuff It's a great great
show and you could find everything you need to
know about Soraya at his website For that podcast
called where did the road go calm and on that
website? There's a link tree so you can find
all of his work his photography music shows YouTube
channel, social media, and everything else. So
make sure you go and check out everything that
Sarai is doing. And remember, this is just the
first half of the interview conversation, and
make sure you tune in next time. And as always,
if you like the show, please subscribe and follow
me everywhere. You can find everything at SenecaLakeMysteries
.com. Also, you can reach out to me anytime with
comments, suggestions. Stories anything else
by sending an email to podcast at Seneca Lake
mysteries .com or by calling and leaving a voicemail
at six zero seven three zero seven one one six
seven, so thanks again for listening and Thanks
again to Soraya for an incredible conversation.
So let's get to it Well, thank you for having
me on. Hey, thanks for being here. I enjoyed
our last talk. Yeah, me too. And it was nicer
today. Oh, this is it's perfect. I think tomorrow's
supposed to be a scorcher. So I'm glad we got
this one in today. And when I when I arrived
here, there was a guy mowing this place and to
and to mow this place like he was here from seven
in the morning. And now it's after six o 'clock
at night. But it was perfect timing because when
I came up, I heard the mower. I'm like, oh, no.
I was worried about something like that But uh,
but The mowing got done I got to talk to Randy
the mower if you're listening Randy, thanks for
thanks for stopping and talking to me So let's
get into it where I haven't done an episode yet.
Well, actually let's get into this first Soraya,
yeah, you're You're the host of lacks last the
last exit for the last exit for the lost for
Today as of today 31 years 31 years Yes And just
tell people a little bit about that show That
is an underground music show, so it's mostly
heavier stuff, but it's not only metal, it's
punk, it's hardcore, it's industrial, it's gothic
stuff, but it's stuff you're not going to hear
anywhere else. So we generally move away from
the big name bands and try to focus on the stuff
that's smaller, local bands, things like that,
and obscure old stuff that you may not have heard.
So we do live performances of bands, we have
a performance space. Yeah, we do a lot. Yeah.
The last exit dot org is the website. If anyone
wants to check it out shows are archived sporadically
all the way back to 1996. Wow. Yeah. So you I
mean, you've been at that for a while. You're
a bit of a institution here in the in the Finger
Lakes area. And I love the idea that it's it's
Just a passion of yours that you put all this
energy and all this love into and I'm sure you've
helped so many bands and Turned people on to
so much good music and hope so and that's uh,
that's awesome. And then At some point you started
doing your second show where did the road where
did the road go? That was in that was January
26 2013 2013 I I had heard other, I was starting
to listen to other podcasts. I generally, the
story I basically put in a nutshell, I didn't
like talk radio. I didn't like talk radio because
my dad listened to Rush Limbaugh nonstop. And
it drove me crazy. Graham Hancock had posted
that he was going to be on Coast to Coast and
I'm like, oh, I kind of want to hear Graham Hancock.
And I figured I wouldn't listen to all of it
because I don't like talk radio. But then I listened
to all of it and I was like, that was great.
What else is out there? And so I started looking
for shows he was on and then I started looking
for other people I was interested in like Robert
Schock and stuff and at some point someone was
interviewing Jesse Ventura Oh and Robert Schock
same person interviewed Robert Schock didn't
know anything about them Wasn't paying attention
to the stuff Jesse Ventura was saying and I said
why does this person get to talk to these people?
I want to talk to these people and I know their
stuff, you know, yeah, and so I Didn't think
of it as a podcast. I just I'm like I haven't
read we have an hour free on WVBR Maybe they'll
let me have it and initially they didn't respond
I went okay And I talked to someone who went
oh, no the program director never responds hit
him again, and I hit him again He's like I love
this idea. I'm sorry. I thought I got back to
you And then I mean it's more of a podcast now
than a radio show the radio shows kind of secondary
most people listen to the podcast is why wouldn't
you right but in 2013 you know not everyone was
listening to podcasts oh yeah yeah for sure yep
and when it comes to talk radio it turns out
that uh it all depends on who's talking exactly
exactly cool so um so so let's get into the the
willard asylum a little bit i've got some notes
here i haven't covered willard yet on my podcast
and i consider willard If I had a Seneca Lake
mysteries Mount Rushmore Willard would be one
of those one of those faces on on Mount Rushmore
I would probably have Seneca drums Seneca Lake
monster Willard and Maybe the white deer hmm
Not because they're not necessarily, you know
Paranormal, but they're just so unusual and so
so offbeat so So yeah, the Willard Asylum opened
in 1869. It was first called the Willard Asylum
for the Chronic Insane. And then in 1890, it
was renamed the Willard State Hospital. And it
stayed open until 1995. In 1974, it was renamed
the Willard Psychiatric Center. Right, right.
So the names have changed over the years and
originally it was named after dr. Sylvester D
Willard who was a doctor from Albany that was
well known for his compassion and his his his
moral compass and he wanted to give mentally
ill people and disabled people a dignified life
So that was the spirit behind Willard now Of
course, it's all relative when you're talking
about these types of facilities from back in
the day. But it was one of the better ones. Yes,
it was one of the better ones. So by 1855, it
was basically or 1885. So within the first 10,
15 years, it was turned into. basically a self
-sufficient small town, had housing for residents
and employees, kitchens, livestock, gardens,
a slaughterhouse, a rail yard, pretty much everything
a small town would need. And in 1931, they built
a hospital on the site, which had surgical rooms,
all hospital services, dental, and that stayed
as a working hospital until the early 80s. And
so when Willard was open, if you talk to a lot
of the people who worked there in the later years,
they don't seem to remember many bad things happening.
No, no. I actually interviewed a woman who was
a nurse here for decades. Oh, yeah, I haven't
put it up yet. I did it like a year or two ago,
but I haven't had time to edit because we went
through the museum with her because she was leaving
the area and she was probably like 80 and she
told us a bunch of told me a bunch of stories
and then we drove around and she, you know, pointed
to different buildings and explained what they
were for and stuff like that. So eventually that'll
be up on the where the road go site. No, no paranormal
stuff. It was just like a history of the psychiatric
center. Right. There's a museum here? Yes, a
very small one. Okay, I think I've heard about
that. Is it open to the public? I think so, but
I don't know when. They called me and one of
my neighbors is a part of that group. And she's
like, would you come interview this woman before
she leaves? And I'm like, well, yes. Cool. Yeah.
Yeah, so we'll be looking for that interview
whenever that pops up. Maybe I'll put a little...
That'll put a little fire under me to get that
right. But for for some of the other reports
that came from Willard when it was open, there
were allegations of slave labor. There was, you
know, abuse, neglect. And as far as the types
of. So -called therapies they used a lot of it
was kind of progressive occupational therapy
and like You know they they had you know a theater
and a bowling alley and they wanted their residents
to have a social life to some extent And to have
jobs and to have a meaningful life But at the
same time Some of the other methods they used
were thyroid extractions They used arsenic to
treat mental illnesses caused by syphilis, insulin
shock treatment. They used a drug starting in
the 50s. They started using a drug called Metrazole,
which is essentially a drug that induces more
or less the same response as electroshock treatment.
Right, right. Which is what they also did here.
Yeah. So it had a, you know, it may not have
been at the same level of Nightmare Factory is
a lot of the other. But compared to today. Similar.
Oh, yeah. Compared to today. Sure. And compared
to even, you know, the places that were around
at the same time. But when it closed in 1995,
there were only 135 patients left. Over the course
of... Were you going to say something? Yeah,
there was a... So some of the patients were able
to just leave. That and there was one guy and
I think his name was Warren if I remember right
and he would hang out down at there There was
a little store Down here and he'd hang out there
when he talked to us every time we went down
there. He was probably in his 70s Mm -hmm, and
he told us the craziest stories. Oh, yeah No
idea if any of them were true They were just
off the the wall type of stuff, but he was such
a blast to talk to and he was such a nice guy
Yeah Yeah, I am that reminds me I talked to a
woman who? She grew up in the area in between
like Kind of between the the depot and Willard.
Okay, the Seneca Army Depot, which is north of
of Willard and she grew up she was a little girl
in like the 60s and She she initially called
to tell me stories about UFOs that she was seeing
at that time And they were pretty common according
to her when she was young, but she also mentioned
that when she was little, especially at nighttime,
it would feel extra weird or creepy to a lot
of the kids that lived in the area because it's
partially because the UFOs, but also because
everybody was worried that someone was going
to escape from the mental hospital. And occasionally
it did happen where, you know, someone would,
someone would escape and approach a house or
something like that. So I thought that was a
real interesting. You know way to grow up is
to is to always have this in the back of your
mind like thinking that some some some Disturbed
person is gonna jump out of the trees that concern
got worse when they put the prison here Oh, yeah,
because people like what what if someone gets
out? Yep, I don't think that anyone got out.
I don't one guy wandered away when he was on
cleaning detail Yes and it's like he just wandered
off and it's like and he only had like two weeks
left or something like that and then he was thrown
back in for however long for wandering off oh
yeah i remember that that wasn't that long no
probably the last 10 years yeah um but that you
know we got all those they called all the houses
giving alerts oh you know so then it's like and
it didn't sound like he was particularly dangerous
right right yeah because the willard campus was
it was um drug rehabilitation but it was like
it was like a prison yeah but a prison So it
was an alternate alternative to a regular prison,
quote unquote. So so people could get sent there.
But there's also I mean, there's five points,
which is the maximum security prison, which is
not far away as well. Interesting that we're
talking about this at this time, because right
now the state and the county are taking. What
do you call them? proposals for how to develop
the old Willard campus. Yes, I just saw that
the other day. About damn time. Yeah. I mean,
my first thought is save at least a building
or two for ghost hunting because I really think
like somebody could make somebody could make
a buck off of that. There are plenty of plenty
of stories from inside Willard, I guess. lot
of the lawnmower oh we got another lawnmower
coming up here what's up Okay, so I had to stop
and take a break there for a second the the mower
guy came up He had lost his phone. Yeah when
he was up here chatting with me, so Soraya called
his phone for him eventually. He found it over
here in the Yeah in one piece he was worried
he'd mowed it Yeah, and that guy had a long day
and then to lose your phone right at the end
of the day He looked like he was pretty stressed
stressed out, so I'm glad you found it so we
were talking about uh yeah, we're talking about
the Proposal for Willard proposal for Willard.
I don't know what proposals they have. I'm sure
some of them are like Well, they were talking
about like for housing. They were talking a few
different things. Yeah I mean it would be wise
to make part of it a museum Sure, and I think
that was part of what they're talking about Yeah,
the Dick Van Dyke Center is still open over there.
I think yeah it is So that's that's one of the
few things on that campus. That's still active.
Uh -huh Yeah, a lot of the buildings unfortunately
have almost fallen in on themselves, right? So
yeah, I'm sure those will just be demolished
Yep, for sure a certain point. It's beyond restoration.
Yeah, but a lot of them I mean, but a lot of
them are in you know, they They were on they
were in use just a couple years ago. Yeah, so
So we'll see what happens with that. But I think
you're I think I did hear something about the
county idea or whatever, like part of their part
of their vision for it is to make sure that the
the history is preserved, that it's not just
like, you know, raised to the ground. Well, they
forgot a few years ago. Well, it would have been
2015, maybe they had opened it up for tours.
I remember the response was so immense. for the
one day they opened it up for tours that they
had to cancel it. They ended up canceling it?
Because there were too many people like the place
was mobbed and they were like this is we can't
control this we're gonna cancel this because
I just happened to be on the air during the day
that day on VBR because they had like a dealer's
choice thing where there was just an open hour
and a friend of mine saw the post that I was
on the air and he's like hey because he was from
like Syracuse he's like hey we we came to do
the Willard tour and they just cancelled it can
we come hang out at the radio station and I'm
like yeah sure so that's how I knew about that
you know that they They you know, we're gonna
open it up to regular tours, but there was so
many people Yeah, they were like we can't handle
this. This is way because it was I think just
a free tour Yeah, yeah, I think I I think I did
hear about like hundreds of people showed up
They expected, you know 50 or whatever or 15.
I think they underestimate the lure of a place
like this Oh, yeah, it's um, yeah the history
it was open for long time at one point. It was
the largest Asylum in the United States like
in the late 1800s. So and how many ghost shows
have done Willard? Yeah, you know, yeah a number
of them have Plus people who just you know, kind
of call them whatever urban explorers or people
that just like get in there and and and snoop
around but I do know a guy I'm trying to get
him on the podcast who said that years ago. He
did go in there It's one of the buildings and
did an investigation. He said we got some stuff
and It was pretty impressive. So I don't know.
Well, I'll give him another give him another
poke to see if I can get him on here This is
and where we're at now So there were 50 field
was that it's a potter's field a potter's field
So there were 50 ,000 people who lived at residents
patients at Willard throughout its history and
Roughly half of them died while living here.
So 25 some thousand but here at the Willard Cemetery
There are five thousand seven hundred and sixty
six former residents buried here and What makes
this? Cemetery so unique at least to me the first
time I came here is that? Not only is it you
know over five thousand people who Died in the
hospital whose families didn't claim their bodies
For you know, it could have been that they had
no family to claim the body but also, you know
There were heiress in this country even not that
long ago where when people had a someone in their
family who was severely disabled They wanted
nothing to do with them and they out of sight
out of mind and that's That's who's buried here
And what makes it What makes it striking to me
when I first came here is That there's aside
from the far corner. There's a far corner Where
there's Civil War? Veterans and I did double
check on it Civil War veterans who were willard
patients Okay are buried in the back corner,
but that's the only place where there are any
tombstones there's a couple spots that have markers
that people have put in in the in more recent
years but there's no it's just it just looks
like a meadow when I was coming up here as a
teenager yeah most of it looked like a meadow
but there were areas that were overgrown with
trees uh -huh and in there they had little metal
slabs for tombstones Yep, and the Jewish graveyard
were on the edge of right now was like that and
they'd stick up out of the ground not very far
They were steel and they just have a number on
them, right? That's it. Yeah, I did find some
pictures online of those And I had one which
I'll tell the story about later But yeah, when
they when they cleaned it up, they got rid of
the slabs and if you look you can find circular
Markers in the ground that have those numbers
on them Yes, so that's what they replaced them
with but of course those are sinking and getting
overgrown right and the lawnmower guy there said
like when he's mowing through the field, it's
like Choppy waters you're going up and down up
and down He's like I assume that's just because
there are graves there that have sunk it in.
Yeah, and I would assume the same Yeah, yeah,
and I guess at some point in history. I don't
know what era it was probably closer to probably
after it closed Maybe in the late 90s early 2000s
the people that came here to mow Got tired of
having to mow around whatever markers were left.
So they ended up pulling up a lot of the markers
If you there's a grove of trees over there Yeah,
it's the only one that's left that you'll see
a lot of markers there that are up against the
roots and I think that's where they took a lot
of them and just kind of Tossed them in a pile
there. There's also I found online a picture
cement things with markers on them and the woman
said I forget what corner it was I think it's
the far corner she said she found it in the woods
just a bunch of markers on cement pieces just
tossed in a pile yeah I mean that's a you know
that another it just feels like you know the
people who passed away were there this is their
final resting place and then for the final slap
in the face, like whatever little tombstones
were here for them, whatever little markers that
were there to remember them were just unceremoniously
picked up and just dumped in a corner. In the
years since I started coming up here in the late
in probably the mid late 80s, this place has
changed dramatically. Yeah. So they were like
I said, there were a lot more trees where they
had the markers in the trees and they just didn't
do anything with them There used to be a little
building for the grave digger Even after the
grave digger. I think the grave digger passed
away. What year? 1968 okay. Yeah, so obviously
he I wasn't around when he was alive, but they
had a building a cement building and They just
one day demolished it and made it part of the
road going up into here And it's like, why would
you do this? It was a perfectly good building.
Yeah. Oh, so you did you ever go in there? No,
it was locked. Oh, OK. Yeah. But it was a small
builds like a shed. Yeah. It was cement. So it
was all, you know, solid. So it's not like it
was rotting or anything. Yeah. Maybe they did
it because they weren't using it anymore. But
still, why bother to demolish it and then rubble
it down to make gravel for the road? Yeah, I.
I don't I don't have an answer to that. I can't
think of a reason except they just I mean You
just have it in your mind that this place kind
of doesn't matter like nobody remembers anyone
here It doesn't you know, it's just changed now
for sure. Yeah And we didn't even know if we
were allowed to be up here, honestly Yeah, cuz
it's like I mean there were no trespassing signs
on the woods. Mm -hmm But if you came up here,
there would also be no trespassing signs looking
out toward the woods. So we were always like
Are we allowed to be here? We don't don't really
care, but like we're going to be careful about
coming up here. There was one day we had walked
down in a Willard safety officer pass just as
we were walking down the driveway and he stopped
and we went, all right, well, we weren't doing
anything wrong. So we're just going to keep walking.
And then he drove off. I think if we had like
ran or something, he would have been like. So
were you were you young enough to have been coming
here when the the. Hospital with the state hospital
is open. Yeah, okay. This would have been like
86 87. Oh wow, okay Yeah, I don't know were they
still burying people here at that time. I think
so Because I think the wood we made our bench
out of was the wood they used to carry one of
the coffins. Oh man Because it was just this
really nice wood just laying on the ground right
next to the building over there And we're like
we can make a bench out of this Yeah Yeah, you
mentioned the gravedigger so I wanted I wanted
to just quickly go over the story of Lawrence
mocha and he's you know not that I mean a lot
of it's It's getting kind of heartbreaking like
I feel like I'm talking about a lot of heartbreaking
things And we'll we'll we'll get past that a
little bit, but that's part of the history here.
So There was a man named Lawrence mocha and he
was born in Austria in 1878 He suffered a head
injury from getting hit with a rock when he was
27 Then he became an alcoholic and Between the
alcohol and the brain damage he ended up and
it had his first day in an asylum when he was
living in Germany Um, but every description I
can see about why he was put away was because
he would, he was singing loudly and excitedly
in public and people uncomfortable. Yeah. So,
um, and I was just thinking, man, I, I've lost
count of the number of guys I've seen in cities
who are singing and laughing excitedly. And,
uh, nobody seems to get too bothered. Well, also
when you're drunk. You're more likely to do that.
Yeah. Yeah, I'm sure I've I'm sure I've done
that myself so so then Lawrence moved to New
York City at age 29 and He started working at
Bellevue Hospital in New York City as a window
washer He did okay for about eight or nine years,
but then when he was 38 he was again singing
loudly and excitedly except now he was Telling
people that God was speaking to him. So they
said well, that's that's uh, maybe he was Hey,
he might have been And they said well that's
enough so you're no longer working at Bellevue
now you are a resident of Bellevue and at age
40 he was transferred to Willard And first he
was a maintenance guy and then He started digging
graves right here in the cemetery From what I
can gather he dug a lot I don't I didn't read
anything about the grave digging team like he
was the guy who Dug graves. Yeah, I think it
was just him by himself. Yeah starting it was
I don't know exactly when he started but He it
was after he was transferred here at age 40 then
in 1945 He was 67 years old, and he wrote a letter
to his doctor asking for his release. Have you
heard the letter? No. Okay, I've got the letter
here from Lawrence to his doctor, 1945. Dr. Keele,
I hereby Lawrence Mocha stop work. Yesterday
afternoon, I asked you doctor to discharge me
from Willard Institution. I am capable to do
my living independently. I also want to get money
for my work here. I make over eight years more
than 500 graves myself and other heavy work all
year round. I asked doctor to prepare my trunk,
which I brought here from Central Islip. It is
my own. I bought it in Dusseldorf. I am respectfully
yours. huh and I mean you sound sane yeah and
and I just can't imagine digging graves for 20
years or whatever 500 graves and also keep in
mind that these were residents of Willard most
likely a lot of people that he knew yeah you
know friend friends and you know kind of the
only family and community that he had yeah and
In response they they let him keep digging graves
and He continued digging graves here. This blows
my mind until he was 90 years old Wow So Maybe
part of the reason he lived to be 90 is because
he was digging graves, right? Right. Yeah, he
must have been in great shape in great shape
But 90 yeah, and and then Of course, he was buried
here at the cemetery. And by the time he passed
away, they said that he dug more than 1 ,500
graves out of the 5 ,700 and something people
that were here. And then it was around 2015.
I know they put the marker in 2015. Some local
people, there were people who moved in here in
the in, I don't know, 2009, 2010 -ish, I believe,
who saw how much disrepair the cemetery was in.
There were people advocating for cleaning it
up and making it look respectful. And they installed
a marker, so there's a huge stone boulder that's
over in the middle of the cemetery. And that's
where the building used to be. Oh, OK. Makes
perfect sense. Yep. So, yeah, there's a stone
there and it commemorates Lawrence Mocha's life
and, you know, gives him a little a little nod
for what he what he gave to this place. But I
like how the letters like, hey, I'm not getting
paid for this. I'm doing a lot of work. I want
to be on my own. And they said, well, you just
keep digging graves. Yeah. Like what? Not even
OK, we'll pay you. Right. For doing this work.
Yeah. And I mean, like digging a great like that's
a big hole that a person has to dig. It must
have been just all day, all the time. He must
have been constantly pushing that shovel. So,
yeah, much, much respect to Lawrence Mocha for
for everything he did here. And I also tip my
hat to the people who came in, the friends of
Willard. I remember what exactly the name of
the group was who who cleaned this place up and
made it accessible again. The only place they
ever kept up was the Civil War graveyard back
in the day. That was the only place that was
mowed, had flags all the time. That was the only
area of this that was actually kept up. Yep.
Yeah, I would imagine that's the only place with
tombstones. Also, it's a military. military cemetery
and right now it looks great the mower guy that
just came up he said that actually a local person
I can't remember his name that is the one who
takes care of that cemetery now if you if you
look at the grass over there it's beautiful like
there's no weeds or anything around it looks
like it's been taken care of this whole time
right the rest of the area just went wild um
yeah it's it's I can't remember I don't think
I remember how big this is but it's it's oh he
told me the mower told me like 15 acres or something
15 acres that sounds that sounds about right
yeah it can be deceptive when i've come up here
and walked around i'm like oh i'm gonna go over
there by those trees see what's over there takes
you a while 20 minutes later i'm still hiking
like holy cow it also has a very nice vibe up
here Yes. It's very peaceful. It's very, you
know, like I said, we'll talk about it, but I've
had weird stuff happen up here, but even that
weird stuff, I don't really get freaked out by
weird stuff, but it was never ominous. Right.
Yep. Yeah. That's the same feeling I get here.
I mean, when I think about the meaning of the
place and the people that are buried here and
stuff, like that's melancholy, but I've never
felt, yeah, I've never felt uncomfortable here
or anything like that. Yeah, it's a it doesn't
feel like other places Yeah, I agree and maybe
that's partly the openness and the Positioning
of it. I don't know. Mm -hmm Well, it could have
to do with With something else that we'll get
to in a little bit that we talked about on your
show that I haven't talked about on mine yet
But as you just mentioned it You said you've
had some strange experiences here. Yes. I have
no idea which ones came in what order. OK. I
can go with the most subtle one first. The most
subtle one was so like I said, we built a bench.
We built a bench right on the cliff. You couldn't
see it from the graveyard because there was enough
foliage and stuff that we made it because we
initially just made a trail to the edge of the
cliff that was maybe maybe 10 feet and we would
sit on the edge of the cliff. and we're like
we should build a bench or something and then
suddenly wood was there and we went let's use
this wood and we brought some nails and we made
this little makeshift bench against the tree
that actually is still there but half of it's
even then half of it was hanging over the edge
of the cliff uh the bench what's left of the
bench has been flipped over the the uh top of
the Cliff in this part of it sitting on the other
side still in pretty good shape. Oh, really?
Yeah, I have pictures of it It's hard to see
once it's grown in but I was up here Before everything
started growing in and we were like, oh if you
look at just this angle, you can see the wood.
Yep so he built that bench and we came up here
all the time and Because none of us drove, you
know, we're all teenagers and I don't think I
got my license till I was 19. Oh That sounds
right But anyway, so There was one day I was
just sitting up here on my own waiting for like
some friends to get home or they were having
dinner or something. I was going to go back and
I started whistling the end of Fates Warnings,
the epitaph, which is this just melodic piece
he does. And I'd stop and then I'd hear it back
on the wind. Oh, and I went, is that my imagination?
Like, what's going on here? And then I hum it
again and it would whistle back on the wind again.
I'm like. Alright, either I'm hallucinating or
that's really interesting. Yeah The The tombstone
when they demolished that building there were
tombstones and stuff in it. Mm -hmm. So They
made it part of the road one of the tombstones
I think it was number 14 and it's funny because
I when I was looking around for pictures I found
like number 13 and number 15 pictures of them
and I have 14 And I don't know where it is. I
wish I could find it. But it's just sticking
out of the gravel. And you pull on it, and it
was broken. And I was like, I'm keeping it. It's
a cool little tombstone. And we stuck it under
the bench. Now, first of all, most people, there
were a few kids who would come up here who knew
the bench was there. But where I stuck the tombstone,
you couldn't get to it. You had to know it was
there to get to it. And one day, we're sitting
up there. I reach under there, and it's gone.
I'm like, who took my tombstone? That's weird.
And so as we're walking out, we're looking to
the right, to the cliff, past where the bench
is, because you can't get any further along from
where we built the bench. And there's the tombstone.
And it's laying on the ground on the edge of
the cliff in a cleared out spot with three sticks
on each side. And I went, I can't. And we walked
all the way around it. We're like, you can't
get in there. I had to break some branches. to
get into it like no one could have gone in there
and put that there and I picked it back up my
friends freaking out and I'm like this is mine
leave it alone and I went back and put it under
the bench and that's where it stayed till I took
it home one day and nothing uh nothing creepy
or there was no like nothing attached to it or
anything unsettling it was just and I don't have
any explanation for it like an animal wouldn't
do that no a person couldn't do that because
you couldn't get to it Right. So it's like, all
right, I wish I had a camera at the time. Yeah.
Now with something like that, the first thing
I would have done is snapped a picture. Right.
And then did a little video around it to show
you can't get in there. And maybe even a live
stream. I mean, everybody's got cameras in their
pockets now. Exactly. And then the big one, I
mean, there was probably a lot of, well, there
was another little one, that group of trees that's
still over there, the one they didn't take out.
I was on the far end of it, where it borders
the woods, and my friend was on the other side.
We were just, you know, hiking along. And I got
this ominous feeling, like everything went dead
quiet. And I felt like something big was watching
me. And that's the only time I got spooked up
here. I was like, oh, that's unsettling. And
I'm like, Dave? And he's like, yeah? I'm like,
stay there. And then I walked back around, and
when I came back around, all the sound came back.
Oh, wow. You said it felt like something big?
Yeah, it felt like a predator watching you. Oh.
That's a good thing. Yeah. Well, it's not a predator,
but there's a little brown deer. Oh, a couple
brown deer over there. Yeah, that's not uncommon.
Spying on us. But it was that Oz effect quiet,
I think, that freaked me out. And just that oppressive,
ominous sort of vibe, which I've never felt up
here except for that one time. Hmm. Any idea
why? Nope. I don't even try to explain this stuff,
right? I try to a lot of times I try to take
see what I could take away from it Yeah, you
know, but that was probably just go around and
find your friend I'm sure there are sinister
things around that in the right circumstances
could hurt you Yeah, I mean you got plenty of
missing people in the woods, right? Whereas most
of them are probably prosaic. There's a few that
are real weird. Yeah, that's true The weirdest
experience up here We had made a trail going
the other direction along the side of it, because
we were kids. We had nothing else to do. So we
made a trail going the other way. We had a plank
of wood, and we were trying to make a bench out
of it, but it wasn't really working. So we had
just a little cleared out area. And there were
three of us there, and the fourth friend was
sitting on the bench on the other side. At this
point, it was quite a distance away. And we saw
him sitting over there. And the tree between
us and the graveyard was a decent size tree,
not like a huge tree, but a solid thing, it would
be hard to move, and it just starts shaking.
And you're hearing on the ground, and I'm thinking
buck. I'm thinking buck, it hears us, it's hitting
its horns, because it was a tree a buck could
have shaken. And my one friend's going, what
the hell is that? I'm like, oh man, I think it's
a buck. And I'm thinking, we're going to have
to drop down the... the cliff right and so I
kind of cautiously walk around down the trail
and as soon as I can see the other side it just
stops and there's nothing there so he's like
what is it I'm like nothing and he's like what
do you mean nothing how is that nothing and I'm
like dude there's nothing there and I walk back
and it starts doing it again and I'm like all
right so this time I walk out I go into the field
and there was still trees right next to us but
still you could see through them And there's
nothing, anywhere. And as soon as I got to a
visual point, it stopped. Wow. And he's now really
losing it. And I come back, he's like, how could
it be nothing? And then it starts doing it again.
And he's like, and then our other friend finally
goes, what the hell are you guys talking about?
And we just both got quiet, went, you don't see
the tree shaking? He's like, the tree's not moving.
And we're like. And they're both like, we need
to leave now. And at that moment, our friend
gets up and he starts walking over toward us
from the other bench and just randomly starts
picking up rocks and throwing them right where
we're hearing the sound from. And we're like,
do you see something over there? He's like, no,
why? And we're like, because the tree was shaking
and there's some, he's like, I was throwing rocks.
I'm like, yeah, right now you're throwing rocks,
but you were sitting when this was happening
before. And so then we all left. And we were
practical jokers, particularly me. So my friend
Dave, who had experienced all this weird stuff
with me, he's the one who didn't see it moving.
He thought we were messing with him. So the next
day he's like, was that tree shaking thing, were
you guys serious? And I was like, yes, we were
very serious. He's like, oh man, I thought you
were effing with me. He's like. What the hell
how come I couldn't see it and I'm like, I don't
know what I kept notes too I've been keeping
notes since 1990 and that's in the notes And
so just from memory I assumed Dave was the one
that saw it my other friend didn't because my
other friend never saw anything Mm -hmm, but
then I'm reading the notes good. I got everything
here, right except it was Dave that didn't see
it That's bizarre and then so we walked home
Well, they walked home and then I came back up
here. I was waiting for a ride home. And I'm
like, I have time. I'm going back up there. And
there was nothing there. But when I walked down
by the Civil War graveyard, it was just, again,
as effect, quiet, not not feeling ominous or
anything. But there was something moving through
the top of the trees and big branches were breaking
and falling from the tree. And I was like, and
there's nothing I can't see anything. It's making
almost a monkey like squealing noise. And I'm
and I forgot all about this until I read my notes
and I'm going Holy crap. I remember that now
now that I've read the note, but oh And it just
eventually it just kind of stopped and I went.
All right. Was that like after dark? Uh, it was
probably dusk. Okay Wow that Yeah, I have no
explanation. There's other stuff that happened
in that same time period But it was like at my
house and stuff like that So it was like just
a whole series of things that all seem interconnected
and those were the two that happened here. Yeah.
For a tree to move like that, even a smaller
tree, the amount of force. Yeah, it would take
something like a buck. Yeah. The first time I
told the story on where did the road go, someone
said it was Bigfoot, he was invisible. And I
went, I can't prove there's not an invisible
Bigfoot. Right. And certainly if there was an
invisible Bigfoot, it could have shaken the tree.
True. But whatever it was, I mean, we could feel
the ground shake. That's the thing. Oh, yeah.
So that's heavy. That's not a person doing something
like that. Right. And it's not someone throwing
rocks. Yeah. Yeah. A person wouldn't even be
able to do that probably. Right. Exactly. Maybe
move the tree a little bit, but not to shake
it like that. And again, a large buck easily
could have done what we experienced. Right. Except
there was no large buck. Right. Unless it was
an invisible buck. But I mean walking away from
that might my takeaway immediately was we don't
always all experience the same things Right because
here's here's my friend Dave freaking out because
he's not seeing it Yep, and I've had other experiences
like that where I experienced a weird thing with
someone and there was a third person who didn't
see it Right, and it's like okay Are they blocking
it out? Do we all just kind of interpret things
differently? Like I I don't know it may be questioned
a lot yeah for sure and there's Yeah, and that's
that's that is something that happens in all
kinds of sightings whether it's UFOs or ghosts
or where where some people will see it and others
won't The thing about this one is it was so visceral
Yeah, you know, I mean the tree was literally
shaking there was thumping on the ground. He
wasn't seeing any of it. Yeah That's that's crazy.
Because I mean, if you're feeling that vibration
of thumping in the ground and the trees moving.
Because I mean, the other dramatic one that I
had where someone else didn't see it is my girlfriend
and I were walking through the graveyard in Ithaca,
the Ithaca cemetery, which we've had a lot of
weird stuff there, too. Here, it's always been
during the day. We've come up here at night,
nothing weird happened. During the day is when
all the weird stuff happened. Yeah, that one
was always at night. So we're walking through
there at night because you can walk through there
at night. It's not closed off because there's
houses along the side and it borders college
town and downtown which makes it a liminal area
on top of everything else. Right. We're walking
around and suddenly these lights start spinning
around us like bugs. How big were they? They
were just little tiny orbs about the size of
bugs. But there's a ton of them and they're swarming
around our heads. And they're very clearly not
bugs. And she looks at me and she's like, are
you seeing this? And I'm like, the lights? She's
like, yeah, the lights. And then we look at our
friend and we're like, are you seeing this? He's
like, seeing what? We're like, the lights. He's
like, what lights? And we were meeting up with
some other friends. And just as we heard one
of them say something, like, hey, over here or
whatever, the lights all just darted away suddenly.
And she looked at me and she's like, did you?
Like yeah, they just darted away. She's like,
yeah in different directions. I'm like, uh -huh.
Yeah So we were able to coordinate that we were
seeing the exact same thing, but yet the other
person with us saw nothing Wow and that that
that ties in with with, you know other orb sightings
like a lot of people talk about seeing orbs and
and Reporting that the orbs understand what they're
thinking. Yeah. So in that moment when you were
You know looking and paying attention all of
a sudden they disappeared. It sounds like you
know Well, they did they disappeared when we
came up to our other friends, right? right It's
almost like oh more people by Yep, I've seen
lots of orbs in that graveyard. That's one of
the more common things that in shadow people.
Yeah That's not cynical like that's the end of
Cayuga Lake, right? But it's right. It's it's
in the same neighborhood and it's it's a It's
a valid story for this i'm really interested
in that weird thing that you heard up in the
tree up in the trees because that's I mean A
tree shaking is weird. Yes, but that sounds like
it was some kind of monkey monkey. Yeah, exactly
And that's the thing the other experiences I
was having all revolved around monkeys And so
I was like What is going on and I didn't realize
it until I was working on my autobiography and
i'm going There was this and then this and then
this and then this and they're all they seem
to have this monkey theme going through them
hmm Maybe that's your I don't know. Is that your
spirit animal or your spirit something? There's
something monkeys are got to be meaningful to
you somehow. I Mean sort of we used we used to
do I mean Like my one friend Dave called himself
the Almighty Monkey Yes, so there's that okay
Yeah, that's um I Love those stories and and
I've never had any experiences here, but I haven't
spent anywhere near as much time as you I'm sure
yeah Yeah, and I haven't had anything yet. Well,
I had one experience I can't talk about a couple
of years ago just because it's very personal
Okay, that's the only recent experience I had
and it was something very subtle but also very
meaningful type of thing. OK. And that was here,
too? Yeah, that was here at night. That's the
only one I've had at night, actually. OK, because
I just said I had worked on a computer customer
down the road as I was coming back. It was almost
midnight. And I said, it's nice. I'm going to
walk up there. Yeah. And then, yeah, a couple
of weird things happened. And I was like, cool.
All right. Yeah, this place must be really. Cool
and I very dark I Tried to take pictures on night
shot and just got like vague outlines of the
trees Okay, so that was part one of my conversation
with Soraya at the Willard Cemetery. Thank you
so much for listening. I hope you all enjoyed
it as much as I did. And if you want to learn
more about Soraya and his show, Where Did the
Road Go?, his podcast, and everything else, go
to wheredidtherodgo .com. You'll find his link
tree there and that'll bring you to everything,
all the different projects that he works on.
He's a real interesting guy. He's been at this
for years. And yeah, check out everything that
he does. And again, thank you so much for listening,
for all your comments and messages and feedback.
I really, truly appreciate it. And again, if
you want to get a hold of me, send an email to
podcast at Seneca Lake mysteries dot com, or
you can call and leave a voicemail 607 307. 1167.
So I'll talk to you next time.