WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.740 You know, we get so many families because they 00:00:03.740 --> 00:00:06.179 want the help, right? They want to see their 00:00:06.179 --> 00:00:09.660 child thrive. But to your point in the last episode 00:00:09.660 --> 00:00:11.960 about having glasses and no glasses, if you go 00:00:11.960 --> 00:00:16.440 to an optometrist who fails to see that the child 00:00:16.440 --> 00:00:20.339 is having vision problems and they don't prescribe 00:00:20.339 --> 00:00:23.739 prescriptive lenses, that child's going to keep 00:00:23.739 --> 00:00:25.839 struggling in school because they can't see the 00:00:25.839 --> 00:00:28.960 board at the front. Hello and welcome. We're 00:00:28.960 --> 00:00:31.019 so glad you're tuning into the Taking Good Care 00:00:31.019 --> 00:00:33.859 show. I'm Dr. Andrew Wong, based in Toronto, 00:00:34.100 --> 00:00:36.840 Canada. And I'm Dr. David San Arno, based in 00:00:36.840 --> 00:00:39.740 Edmonton, Canada. We're two practicing psychologists 00:00:39.740 --> 00:00:42.020 with over a decade of experience each working 00:00:42.020 --> 00:00:44.780 in a variety of settings and supporting diverse 00:00:44.780 --> 00:00:47.840 populations. Thanks for joining us. We hope you 00:00:47.840 --> 00:00:52.920 enjoy today's episode. While we're both practicing 00:00:52.920 --> 00:00:55.979 psychologists, Our podcast is intended purely 00:00:55.979 --> 00:00:58.960 for educational and entertainment purposes. It's 00:00:58.960 --> 00:01:01.119 not a substitute for professional mental health 00:01:01.119 --> 00:01:03.659 care or treatment. If you're in need of support, 00:01:03.840 --> 00:01:06.319 we strongly encourage you to reach out to a licensed 00:01:06.319 --> 00:01:13.239 mental health professional in your area. All 00:01:13.239 --> 00:01:16.239 right. Welcome back, Andrew. Here we go. Second 00:01:16.239 --> 00:01:20.840 part of intelligence. But i you know just off 00:01:20.840 --> 00:01:23.019 the air like literally thirty seconds ago i like 00:01:23.019 --> 00:01:25.500 the way you put it it's like okay how do we apply 00:01:25.500 --> 00:01:30.700 our last discussion of intelligence of iq to 00:01:30.700 --> 00:01:32.719 the real world now and i think we alluded to 00:01:32.719 --> 00:01:36.519 a bunch of stuff uh in the previous episode um 00:01:36.519 --> 00:01:39.680 with respect to possible learning disabilities 00:01:39.680 --> 00:01:43.000 giftedness and so on and a little bit about you 00:01:43.000 --> 00:01:46.420 know how we can help people find their path uh 00:01:46.420 --> 00:01:48.769 when it comes to careers and post -secondary 00:01:48.769 --> 00:01:51.489 schools, if that's their path. So we're going 00:01:51.489 --> 00:01:57.010 to funnel that down now to how this helps students, 00:01:57.609 --> 00:02:01.409 adults in the real world, at least here in, I 00:02:01.409 --> 00:02:03.670 want to say North America, but maybe it's safer 00:02:03.670 --> 00:02:08.110 to say Canada. Yeah, probably safer to say that 00:02:08.110 --> 00:02:09.930 because that's what we know. That's where we 00:02:09.930 --> 00:02:12.650 work. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. I like to think 00:02:12.650 --> 00:02:16.710 about it like the role IQ testing or IQ scores 00:02:16.710 --> 00:02:22.789 play. in our lives, right, or in society. So 00:02:22.789 --> 00:02:25.009 that can be assessments, like you're saying, 00:02:25.169 --> 00:02:28.090 and diagnosis, but also like I was just looking 00:02:28.090 --> 00:02:32.050 up that Mensa, right? I forget what Mensa actually 00:02:32.050 --> 00:02:35.530 stands for, but it's essentially, you have to 00:02:35.530 --> 00:02:39.830 have a certain IQ score tested at one of their 00:02:39.830 --> 00:02:42.710 approved testing places, and you have to be in 00:02:42.710 --> 00:02:47.400 the top 2 % to join this club, right? So, and 00:02:47.400 --> 00:02:49.280 this club has been around for a while. There 00:02:49.280 --> 00:02:52.719 was ideas, I think, way back that if people with 00:02:52.719 --> 00:02:55.939 high IQs got together and procreated, that we 00:02:55.939 --> 00:02:59.060 would just create this really super quote unquote, 00:02:59.319 --> 00:03:01.919 smart society. And they would, you know, like, 00:03:02.400 --> 00:03:04.180 and it's been around for a long time. And I don't 00:03:04.180 --> 00:03:06.319 think all that much has really changed. I don't 00:03:06.319 --> 00:03:09.680 think, you know, all of the Mensa folks are running 00:03:09.680 --> 00:03:13.979 the world or, you know, showing success in all 00:03:13.979 --> 00:03:17.550 areas of life. So. but it is kind of a neat like 00:03:17.550 --> 00:03:19.870 experiment that has happened. Well, this is again, 00:03:20.090 --> 00:03:21.750 another discussion that I've had with parents 00:03:21.750 --> 00:03:27.409 before when it comes to that top 2%, the giftedness. 00:03:28.030 --> 00:03:32.189 If only the top 2 % ran this world, we'd be in 00:03:32.189 --> 00:03:37.870 trouble. We'd be in trouble. Um, and so, no, 00:03:37.949 --> 00:03:40.430 it's not just the top 2 % who run the world. 00:03:40.930 --> 00:03:43.729 Many, many people from different backgrounds, 00:03:44.030 --> 00:03:48.110 different abilities. I go back to different strengths 00:03:48.110 --> 00:03:50.389 and weaknesses when it comes to one's cognitive 00:03:50.389 --> 00:03:53.509 profile, right? You will gravitate towards work. 00:03:53.610 --> 00:03:56.770 That is your strength. I wanted to make a comment. 00:03:56.990 --> 00:03:58.949 Actually, I wanted to make it last episode, but 00:03:58.949 --> 00:04:03.430 it escaped me like with ADHD, uh, attention. 00:04:03.759 --> 00:04:08.180 executive function that is one diagnosis one 00:04:08.180 --> 00:04:11.360 area of concern that can really affect someone's 00:04:11.360 --> 00:04:16.139 testing scores right so that is one like if someone's 00:04:16.139 --> 00:04:18.620 getting an assessment a psychoetic assessment 00:04:18.620 --> 00:04:24.319 and uh that might be listed as like these results 00:04:24.319 --> 00:04:26.500 should be interpreted with caution because the 00:04:26.500 --> 00:04:29.740 student had difficulty attending to the to the 00:04:29.740 --> 00:04:33.439 exam or to the the subtests right and that'll 00:04:33.439 --> 00:04:36.620 show up a lot in like processing speed where 00:04:36.620 --> 00:04:39.779 either it takes them really long to do it or 00:04:39.779 --> 00:04:42.699 they're making careless kind of errors right 00:04:42.699 --> 00:04:46.060 so again as a clinician we're looking at all 00:04:46.060 --> 00:04:48.870 of these kind of uh things that we're measuring 00:04:48.870 --> 00:04:52.790 to come up with our best guess at why this student 00:04:52.790 --> 00:04:55.069 is either doing really well or struggling in 00:04:55.069 --> 00:04:56.990 school and lots of times they're flagged because 00:04:56.990 --> 00:04:59.029 they are struggling in school and we're looking 00:04:59.029 --> 00:05:02.709 at why they might be struggling and IQ alone 00:05:02.709 --> 00:05:06.389 IQ alone might be that answer it might be that 00:05:06.389 --> 00:05:09.629 they're actually i've seen this even in my office 00:05:09.629 --> 00:05:14.769 where a student with counseling and they've gotten 00:05:14.769 --> 00:05:18.100 really good at faking that they understand something 00:05:18.100 --> 00:05:21.279 by like nodding and smiling and then they get 00:05:21.279 --> 00:05:25.379 an IQ test and their verbal comprehension is 00:05:25.379 --> 00:05:30.300 terrible like they they do not really understand 00:05:30.300 --> 00:05:34.120 language to the degree that you would expect 00:05:34.120 --> 00:05:37.819 a child of that age or even in that grade right 00:05:37.819 --> 00:05:40.740 we just make assumptions by looking at kids and 00:05:40.740 --> 00:05:43.750 talking to them And so it really helped kind 00:05:43.750 --> 00:05:47.750 of shift the therapy, the treatment, the way 00:05:47.750 --> 00:05:49.730 that I was interacting with this child once I 00:05:49.730 --> 00:05:52.610 had that information. So some kids could be sitting 00:05:52.610 --> 00:05:55.550 in class and it's going right over their head. 00:05:55.670 --> 00:05:58.610 They are not comprehending, they are not understanding, 00:05:58.970 --> 00:06:00.889 but they don't stand out because they're not, 00:06:01.790 --> 00:06:05.529 unless they're failing exams or showing difficulties 00:06:05.529 --> 00:06:08.129 in other ways, they might get missed. Yeah, so 00:06:08.129 --> 00:06:12.060 this is typically your... quiet child sitting 00:06:12.060 --> 00:06:15.879 at the desk may look like he or she's following 00:06:15.879 --> 00:06:19.939 along but really they might be zoning out or 00:06:19.939 --> 00:06:23.439 daydreaming and they sort of get lost in the 00:06:23.439 --> 00:06:25.879 shuffle because they're not they're not problematic 00:06:25.879 --> 00:06:29.100 so to speak right and it's not until a lot of 00:06:29.100 --> 00:06:30.860 the time parents will be like you know what we're 00:06:30.860 --> 00:06:33.879 noticing that The grades aren't quite there. 00:06:34.000 --> 00:06:36.000 The teacher is saying that, you know, even though 00:06:36.000 --> 00:06:38.339 she's paying attention or he's paying attention, 00:06:38.879 --> 00:06:41.120 you know, when it comes to applying those skills, 00:06:41.139 --> 00:06:43.720 they're not quite getting it. Then they'll come 00:06:43.720 --> 00:06:46.019 to our office and, you know, there may be a learning 00:06:46.019 --> 00:06:49.980 disability. Right. So I'm thinking of starting 00:06:49.980 --> 00:06:53.000 there first, and then we'll work our way over 00:06:53.000 --> 00:06:56.399 to maybe giftedness as the episode rolls along. 00:06:56.980 --> 00:06:59.920 Now, I think it was very interesting because 00:07:00.750 --> 00:07:04.449 I was initially trained in Ontario for about 00:07:04.449 --> 00:07:08.329 a year, year and a half for my masters, did some 00:07:08.329 --> 00:07:11.949 assessments here, went out to Alberta for three 00:07:11.949 --> 00:07:15.449 years, did a lot of testing out there, and then 00:07:15.449 --> 00:07:18.209 came back to Ontario and had to relearn some 00:07:18.209 --> 00:07:21.550 things actually in terms of the diagnostic criteria 00:07:21.550 --> 00:07:23.970 for a learning disability. There may be some 00:07:23.970 --> 00:07:25.970 provincial differences here between where you 00:07:25.970 --> 00:07:28.930 are Dave and where I am and also the DSM. Right. 00:07:29.050 --> 00:07:32.230 We talked about the DSM five before. So within 00:07:32.230 --> 00:07:34.649 the DSM five, that's the diagnostic manual that 00:07:34.649 --> 00:07:37.589 psychiatry and psychology uses for mental health 00:07:37.589 --> 00:07:39.970 and other neurodevelopmental disorders. There's 00:07:39.970 --> 00:07:42.269 something called a learning disorder in there, 00:07:42.970 --> 00:07:46.709 which is not a very strict criteria to have a 00:07:46.709 --> 00:07:49.850 learning disorder. I won't go too much into that, 00:07:49.850 --> 00:07:53.209 but really. you know, any kind of academic weakness 00:07:53.209 --> 00:07:56.050 can determine whether or not you have a learning 00:07:56.050 --> 00:07:59.970 disorder according to the DSM -5. But here in 00:07:59.970 --> 00:08:05.110 Ontario, we do have a more strict criteria set 00:08:05.110 --> 00:08:07.810 out by the Ontario Psychological Association, 00:08:08.029 --> 00:08:10.329 set out by the Learning Disabilities Association 00:08:10.329 --> 00:08:14.600 of Ontario. And most school boards will follow 00:08:14.600 --> 00:08:17.899 those criteria. Otherwise, everybody may have 00:08:17.899 --> 00:08:20.240 a learning disorder, according to the DSM -5. 00:08:20.800 --> 00:08:22.699 So I'm being a little facetious there. Anyone 00:08:22.699 --> 00:08:25.540 who's struggling in school in either math or 00:08:25.540 --> 00:08:28.180 reading or writing could qualify for, like, as 00:08:28.180 --> 00:08:30.720 long as it's a significant struggle, they would 00:08:30.720 --> 00:08:33.860 qualify for that disorder, which is not like 00:08:33.860 --> 00:08:37.139 you're saying, quote unquote, the, I don't know 00:08:37.139 --> 00:08:40.259 if it's quote unquote, but the, the definition 00:08:40.259 --> 00:08:43.259 that we learned right? When we were being trained 00:08:43.259 --> 00:08:46.399 in terms of what a learning disability actually 00:08:46.399 --> 00:08:51.460 is, rather than a disorder. Yes. So here, it's 00:08:51.460 --> 00:08:54.960 not just about IQ testing. That's one component 00:08:54.960 --> 00:08:57.500 of it. And we do want to see if there are any 00:08:57.500 --> 00:09:00.159 what we call processing difficulties. So in the 00:09:00.159 --> 00:09:02.299 last episode, we talked about verbal comprehension, 00:09:02.639 --> 00:09:06.129 visual spatial fluid reasoning, and so on. Each 00:09:06.129 --> 00:09:09.350 of those are seen as a process, sort of how your 00:09:09.350 --> 00:09:12.629 brain works. Is there a processing deficit? Now, 00:09:12.730 --> 00:09:14.909 there may be other processing deficits that can 00:09:14.909 --> 00:09:17.470 be further tested, whether it's visual motor 00:09:17.470 --> 00:09:21.730 integration or fine motor challenges. Also phonological 00:09:21.730 --> 00:09:25.909 processing, which is the way we may sound out 00:09:25.909 --> 00:09:29.429 letter sound combinations, how we hear letter 00:09:29.429 --> 00:09:32.409 sound combinations. You know, there may be that 00:09:32.409 --> 00:09:34.529 as well. And here in Ontario too, I don't think 00:09:34.529 --> 00:09:37.730 I did this out in Alberta, memory is also part 00:09:37.730 --> 00:09:40.669 of it too. So we have to do memory testing when 00:09:40.669 --> 00:09:44.490 it comes to one's verbal recall, visual recall, 00:09:45.110 --> 00:09:47.590 delayed visual and verbal recall, and see if 00:09:47.590 --> 00:09:50.750 any of those processes are delayed as well. Right? 00:09:51.330 --> 00:09:55.870 So if there's any kind of process delay or weakness 00:09:55.870 --> 00:10:00.149 in combination with academic difficulty, so this 00:10:00.149 --> 00:10:04.129 could be math, reading, writing, right? Then 00:10:04.129 --> 00:10:06.909 we can say that somebody has a learning disability. 00:10:07.450 --> 00:10:09.110 Now, Dave, you were smiling the whole time I 00:10:09.110 --> 00:10:12.350 was talking about memory. Because I'm pretty 00:10:12.350 --> 00:10:15.440 sure we didn't do it out in Alberta. No, no. 00:10:15.500 --> 00:10:18.120 And this is like a jurisdictional thing, I think. 00:10:18.659 --> 00:10:21.159 So I did my masters in Ontario and then I came 00:10:21.159 --> 00:10:25.220 back to Alberta and also did like an assessment 00:10:25.220 --> 00:10:28.820 course and assessments here. So I'm laughing 00:10:28.820 --> 00:10:33.120 because in Ontario, I did a lot of memory testing, 00:10:33.120 --> 00:10:36.820 right? Like it was built in kind of to the psycho 00:10:36.820 --> 00:10:42.860 -ed assessment when deemed needed. And in other 00:10:42.860 --> 00:10:46.779 places, I think, in Alberta at least, a lot of 00:10:46.779 --> 00:10:49.700 the memory tests are reserved for neuropsych 00:10:49.700 --> 00:10:52.580 assessments and only neuropsychologists will 00:10:52.580 --> 00:10:56.539 be doing those kinds of testing. So even though 00:10:56.539 --> 00:11:00.279 a counseling or a clinical psychologist could 00:11:00.279 --> 00:11:03.399 administer them and be able to purchase the tests 00:11:03.399 --> 00:11:06.519 and interpret them, there is a bit of, you know, 00:11:06.659 --> 00:11:10.220 like if memory is a concern, it should be a neuropsych 00:11:10.220 --> 00:11:14.100 assessment, not just a Ed psych assessment so 00:11:14.100 --> 00:11:19.240 interesting. Yeah. So, so a little bit of an 00:11:19.240 --> 00:11:21.519 aside. Dr. Martin Logan, when I was supervised 00:11:21.519 --> 00:11:24.000 by him, he was a guest on one of our episodes 00:11:24.000 --> 00:11:28.200 on brain injury. And in Ontario, you can at least 00:11:28.200 --> 00:11:29.899 still this way. This is probably going to go 00:11:29.899 --> 00:11:32.200 away soon, but you register as different disciplines 00:11:32.200 --> 00:11:34.879 in psychology, right? So school psychology, clinical 00:11:34.879 --> 00:11:38.960 psychology, neuropsychology. And I remember we 00:11:38.960 --> 00:11:41.759 used to go into rural areas to service people 00:11:41.759 --> 00:11:44.000 who needed the service out in rural Ontario. 00:11:44.139 --> 00:11:47.240 And so we'd have these long car rides and counted 00:11:47.240 --> 00:11:50.259 as supervision. And he started talking about, 00:11:51.100 --> 00:11:53.799 is there really a difference between neuropsych 00:11:53.799 --> 00:11:57.000 and school psychology? You're looking into memory, 00:11:57.100 --> 00:11:59.379 you're looking into IQ, you're looking into all 00:11:59.379 --> 00:12:02.679 these processes. The only thing that you're not 00:12:02.679 --> 00:12:06.019 commenting on in your reports as school psychologists 00:12:06.620 --> 00:12:10.039 is the brain functioning. But it's not to say 00:12:10.039 --> 00:12:12.519 you don't know how it functions. You can still 00:12:12.519 --> 00:12:14.700 comment on what the person needs in order to 00:12:14.700 --> 00:12:17.899 find optimal functioning. So it was a very interesting 00:12:17.899 --> 00:12:19.940 conversation. That was his take on it. And he's 00:12:19.940 --> 00:12:22.139 a neuropsychologist. So it's not like he's saying, 00:12:22.139 --> 00:12:24.740 you know, the school psychologists can't do this 00:12:24.740 --> 00:12:26.860 or clinical psychologists shouldn't do that. 00:12:27.120 --> 00:12:29.759 He was totally advocating that, hey, you know, 00:12:29.940 --> 00:12:32.580 your role, my role, they're actually pretty similar. 00:12:32.860 --> 00:12:36.419 They are they are my spidey senses going up that 00:12:36.419 --> 00:12:39.379 we're treading into some waters that maybe we 00:12:39.379 --> 00:12:42.879 should back away from getting back to the role 00:12:42.879 --> 00:12:47.179 of IQ testing. Um, yeah, like even if we, I think 00:12:47.179 --> 00:12:50.539 for me, when I think about, uh, learning disabilities, 00:12:51.299 --> 00:12:54.340 it's, it's a difficulty with some kind of a processing, 00:12:54.419 --> 00:12:57.080 like you said, a processing deficit or processing 00:12:57.080 --> 00:13:01.940 difficulty that affects a student's ability to 00:13:01.940 --> 00:13:06.019 show what they know or to learn information, 00:13:06.179 --> 00:13:09.840 right? They technically have the ability to do 00:13:09.840 --> 00:13:13.019 it or the aptitude to be able to do it, but there's 00:13:13.019 --> 00:13:16.720 some kind of process that we don't necessarily 00:13:16.720 --> 00:13:20.179 have like the brain imaging to really pinpoint 00:13:20.179 --> 00:13:24.539 it yet. So one example is like dyslexia. where 00:13:24.539 --> 00:13:27.799 someone reversing letters and difficulty with 00:13:27.799 --> 00:13:30.980 reading and so if someone else reads the information 00:13:30.980 --> 00:13:34.279 to them they can take it in they can think about 00:13:34.279 --> 00:13:38.620 it they can answer questions right or dysgraphia 00:13:38.620 --> 00:13:41.480 where it's difficulty writing so if that is the 00:13:41.480 --> 00:13:44.379 issue you know if you tell a student they have 00:13:44.379 --> 00:13:47.379 to write out their answers and they have dysgraphia 00:13:47.379 --> 00:13:50.039 you're not going to get an accurate estimate 00:13:50.039 --> 00:13:52.870 of what they actually know. because of the way 00:13:52.870 --> 00:13:56.750 you're testing the knowledge, right? So the way 00:13:56.750 --> 00:13:58.490 that I was trained and the way that I always 00:13:58.490 --> 00:14:00.250 think about learning disabilities is that one 00:14:00.250 --> 00:14:04.409 of the requirements is to have an average IQ, 00:14:04.889 --> 00:14:10.590 average or above IQ initially and then to have 00:14:10.590 --> 00:14:14.289 below average to extremely below average performance 00:14:14.289 --> 00:14:17.889 on academic tasks like reading writing or math. 00:14:18.379 --> 00:14:21.000 So again, I think this is where, like, the jurisdiction 00:14:21.000 --> 00:14:23.940 differences lie too, right? So in terms of how 00:14:23.940 --> 00:14:28.059 we even represent intelligence here, so, well, 00:14:28.220 --> 00:14:30.639 for simplicity's sake, we'll take what you mentioned 00:14:30.639 --> 00:14:32.980 in the WISC, right, in the last episode, the 00:14:32.980 --> 00:14:36.879 Wechsler intelligence scales. Any of those domains? 00:14:36.980 --> 00:14:39.340 Well, not any. I'll say, like, the main ones. 00:14:39.399 --> 00:14:41.299 Let's say verbal comprehension, visual spatial 00:14:41.299 --> 00:14:46.470 reasoning, and fluid reasoning. Even if... those 00:14:46.470 --> 00:14:49.529 overall scores don't come out in average, that's 00:14:49.529 --> 00:14:52.570 okay, right? Let's say fluid reasoning is average 00:14:52.570 --> 00:14:54.529 to above average, and then you've got verbal 00:14:54.529 --> 00:14:57.070 comprehension that's low average or below average 00:14:57.070 --> 00:15:00.330 or significant below average. We can still use 00:15:00.330 --> 00:15:05.309 fluid reasoning as the best estimate or the best 00:15:05.309 --> 00:15:08.330 representation of intelligence, right? But we 00:15:08.330 --> 00:15:10.570 would say that this individual has a processing 00:15:10.570 --> 00:15:14.399 deficit in verbal comprehension. Yes. So that 00:15:14.399 --> 00:15:18.059 is where using the overall score or using certain 00:15:18.059 --> 00:15:21.059 scores, depending what is most representative 00:15:21.059 --> 00:15:25.279 of this child's estimated intelligence, right? 00:15:25.360 --> 00:15:27.039 And that's where it becomes really important 00:15:27.039 --> 00:15:29.620 because if you use a different score and you 00:15:29.620 --> 00:15:33.299 say, no, this child does not have, it does not 00:15:33.299 --> 00:15:36.000 fall within the average range intelligence on 00:15:36.000 --> 00:15:39.019 the IQ score. They no longer qualify for this 00:15:39.019 --> 00:15:42.179 diagnosis of a learning disability, right? And 00:15:42.179 --> 00:15:44.919 they might. Well, I'll just say this quick that 00:15:44.919 --> 00:15:48.080 they might qualify for a diagnosis of a mild 00:15:48.080 --> 00:15:50.960 intellectual disability. Right. And then that 00:15:50.960 --> 00:15:54.340 is a different diagnosis that's going to affect, 00:15:54.340 --> 00:15:57.700 you know, different kinds of accommodations or 00:15:57.700 --> 00:16:02.100 supports. Yes. So I think this is, again, training 00:16:02.100 --> 00:16:07.600 is so important. Good training. Years of experience. 00:16:08.080 --> 00:16:11.100 and being supervised on these assessments, it 00:16:11.100 --> 00:16:13.519 makes a very, very big difference because the 00:16:13.519 --> 00:16:18.580 interpretation of these scores can, you know, 00:16:18.679 --> 00:16:21.860 it forms your diagnosis or no diagnosis, which 00:16:21.860 --> 00:16:24.899 can mean whether the student receives accommodations 00:16:24.899 --> 00:16:28.519 and help at school or not. Right. So what type 00:16:28.519 --> 00:16:33.100 of accommodation? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So, 00:16:33.279 --> 00:16:35.419 you know, anyone listening who's going through 00:16:35.419 --> 00:16:40.470 training programs, you know, please receive a 00:16:40.470 --> 00:16:43.590 really good education in this area. And if you 00:16:43.590 --> 00:16:46.470 have any doubts of your assessment abilities, 00:16:46.909 --> 00:16:55.710 I would say maybe not do them. Or get some supervision, 00:16:56.049 --> 00:16:58.610 get some supervision, really good supervision. 00:16:59.000 --> 00:17:01.480 Again, these are high stakes, right? And these 00:17:01.480 --> 00:17:04.759 reports that get written, that get put into the 00:17:04.759 --> 00:17:07.200 file of the child at school and that follow them 00:17:07.200 --> 00:17:10.480 from school to school, that is why there needs 00:17:10.480 --> 00:17:13.319 to be a lot of care and caution, like you're 00:17:13.319 --> 00:17:16.279 saying, in terms of doing this work. Yeah. You 00:17:16.279 --> 00:17:19.859 know, we get so many families, and I always remind 00:17:19.859 --> 00:17:23.579 myself, why are families coming? Because they 00:17:23.579 --> 00:17:26.039 want the help, right? They want to see their 00:17:26.039 --> 00:17:29.279 child thrive. and they're really hoping by getting 00:17:29.279 --> 00:17:31.819 some answers through these assessments and reports 00:17:31.819 --> 00:17:35.420 will get their family and their child to the 00:17:35.420 --> 00:17:38.980 next level, right? And that might mean receiving 00:17:38.980 --> 00:17:41.720 appropriate supports from the school. But to 00:17:41.720 --> 00:17:44.440 your point in the last episode about having glasses 00:17:44.440 --> 00:17:48.339 and no glasses, if you go to an optometrist who 00:17:48.339 --> 00:17:50.799 fails to see that the child is having vision 00:17:50.799 --> 00:17:54.579 problems and they don't prescribe prescriptive 00:17:54.579 --> 00:17:57.920 lenses, that child's going to keep struggling 00:17:57.920 --> 00:17:59.799 in school because they can't see the board at 00:17:59.799 --> 00:18:06.559 the front. That's the piece around learning disabilities, 00:18:06.759 --> 00:18:10.000 right? I would add one more thing around, at 00:18:10.000 --> 00:18:13.319 least again in Ontario, you know, even if a student 00:18:13.319 --> 00:18:17.619 is getting maybe a lower end of the average test 00:18:17.619 --> 00:18:20.279 scores for academics, if we notice as a clinician 00:18:20.279 --> 00:18:24.430 that the student is taking An abundance of time, 00:18:24.569 --> 00:18:27.309 you know, really long time to get through academic 00:18:27.309 --> 00:18:31.529 tasks, whether it's math problem solving or writing. 00:18:31.990 --> 00:18:34.609 We can also make that clinical judgment that, 00:18:35.009 --> 00:18:37.369 hey, like this is taking way longer than most 00:18:37.369 --> 00:18:41.210 students should be taking. And we can still diagnose 00:18:41.210 --> 00:18:44.609 a learning disability in that sense. Not just 00:18:44.609 --> 00:18:46.490 with the slow speed, there has to be other processing 00:18:46.490 --> 00:18:49.509 deficits too. But if let's say they're scoring 00:18:49.509 --> 00:18:52.480 sort of average -ish, in most academic tasks, 00:18:52.500 --> 00:18:54.160 but it's like taking them three times as long 00:18:54.160 --> 00:18:57.140 as everyone else. We can make that call. And 00:18:57.140 --> 00:19:00.460 I think even just a general kind of understanding, 00:19:00.880 --> 00:19:06.150 like a learning disability is is. is understood 00:19:06.150 --> 00:19:09.450 that you know a student might be performing poorly 00:19:09.450 --> 00:19:11.849 and be labeled as you know we've been talking 00:19:11.849 --> 00:19:13.970 about smart but you could be labeled as dumb 00:19:13.970 --> 00:19:18.109 or not intelligent right and a learning disability 00:19:18.109 --> 00:19:20.289 can really help clarify that like the student 00:19:20.289 --> 00:19:24.069 has intelligence to be able to do to learn and 00:19:24.069 --> 00:19:27.170 to think through these problems but the way we 00:19:27.170 --> 00:19:30.950 are teaching or asking them to demonstrate their 00:19:30.950 --> 00:19:34.279 learning creates such a difficulty that they're 00:19:34.279 --> 00:19:36.319 performing way lower than what they're actually 00:19:36.319 --> 00:19:39.279 capable of. Exactly. Now, I do want to state 00:19:39.279 --> 00:19:42.099 that in terms of a learning disability, I think 00:19:42.099 --> 00:19:46.380 the word disability scares people. It certainly 00:19:46.380 --> 00:19:49.059 scares parents and caregivers who I've worked 00:19:49.059 --> 00:19:50.980 with, not all of them, but some of them, when 00:19:50.980 --> 00:19:53.740 they hear the word disability. A learning disability 00:19:53.740 --> 00:19:56.420 does not mean that the individual cannot learn, 00:19:57.119 --> 00:19:59.339 right? It just means that there are strengths. 00:19:59.769 --> 00:20:05.390 and there are weaknesses and a difference in 00:20:05.390 --> 00:20:09.190 the way they learn, right? And so a very simple 00:20:09.190 --> 00:20:12.029 example might be that, you know, somebody learns 00:20:12.029 --> 00:20:16.009 better through visual means, right? So, you know, 00:20:16.009 --> 00:20:19.990 if you give them diagrams and tables, pictures 00:20:19.990 --> 00:20:23.730 for them to follow lists, they will learn better 00:20:23.730 --> 00:20:26.130 than if somebody just lectured at the front of 00:20:26.130 --> 00:20:28.690 the classroom and didn't write anything down. 00:20:29.400 --> 00:20:32.619 Right. So, you know, when a prof or a teacher 00:20:32.619 --> 00:20:35.240 just lectures in the front, yada, yada, yada, 00:20:35.480 --> 00:20:38.380 they may not comprehend everything that that 00:20:38.380 --> 00:20:40.859 person is saying because they're not that auditory 00:20:40.859 --> 00:20:44.640 or verbal learner. Yeah. Or back to dyslexia. 00:20:44.700 --> 00:20:47.640 If they can listen to the audio book rather than 00:20:47.640 --> 00:20:51.119 read the hard copy book and they can take in 00:20:51.119 --> 00:20:54.579 that information, then, you know, you're making 00:20:54.579 --> 00:21:00.680 an accommodation that allows them to then and 00:21:00.680 --> 00:21:04.819 express their understanding, right? So. Yeah, 00:21:05.000 --> 00:21:08.779 exactly. So with a learning disability, you know, 00:21:08.900 --> 00:21:12.700 people can still do great things, thrive, right? 00:21:12.960 --> 00:21:16.140 Through receiving certain accommodations or what 00:21:16.140 --> 00:21:18.900 I see sometimes in older high school students 00:21:18.900 --> 00:21:21.740 and post -secondary students and even adults 00:21:21.740 --> 00:21:25.619 in the workplace, they eventually and naturally 00:21:25.619 --> 00:21:28.819 find ways to accommodate themselves too. I go 00:21:28.819 --> 00:21:31.680 back to that idea of gravitating towards your 00:21:31.680 --> 00:21:35.299 own interests, your own strengths, and they do 00:21:35.299 --> 00:21:38.000 very well. Again, it does not mean you cannot 00:21:38.000 --> 00:21:41.960 learn. Yeah. And let's expand that too to like 00:21:41.960 --> 00:21:44.839 mild intellectual disability or severe intellectual 00:21:44.839 --> 00:21:47.839 disability. So scoring on the really low end 00:21:47.839 --> 00:21:52.500 of the IQ score there. I mean, it's a, it's a 00:21:52.500 --> 00:21:55.220 developmental disability. right so depending 00:21:55.220 --> 00:21:58.019 on what province or what part of the country 00:21:58.019 --> 00:22:00.500 you're in or other jurisdictions they're going 00:22:00.500 --> 00:22:03.279 to have different labels for it but like in Alberta 00:22:03.279 --> 00:22:06.779 you would qualify for like PDD so there would 00:22:06.779 --> 00:22:10.759 be some supports that would be available because 00:22:10.759 --> 00:22:14.680 you know be you know full -time employment or 00:22:14.680 --> 00:22:17.309 some of these other things are going to be very 00:22:17.309 --> 00:22:19.670 difficult. Even attending school might be very 00:22:19.670 --> 00:22:23.289 difficult, right? So there are supports in place 00:22:23.289 --> 00:22:26.549 that if you score a certain like below 70 was 00:22:26.549 --> 00:22:29.269 kind of the range on, you know, around here for 00:22:29.269 --> 00:22:32.309 a while. Now they don't just rely on IQ scores, 00:22:32.529 --> 00:22:34.769 right? We're not just basing this entire thing 00:22:34.769 --> 00:22:38.640 on IQ scores. But yeah, I think it doesn't mean 00:22:38.640 --> 00:22:41.079 that your life won't have meaning or that you 00:22:41.079 --> 00:22:44.160 won't, but it can kind of help guide what supports 00:22:44.160 --> 00:22:47.039 you need, what areas where you might be more 00:22:47.039 --> 00:22:51.400 successful and gives you a range or a direction 00:22:51.400 --> 00:22:56.519 for parents and for caregivers. So one piece 00:22:56.519 --> 00:22:59.940 around intellectual disabilities does go through 00:22:59.940 --> 00:23:04.309 the DSM, right? The diagnostic manual. And at 00:23:04.309 --> 00:23:07.549 least in my practice, we will look into what 00:23:07.549 --> 00:23:10.490 we call adaptive functioning, right? So what 00:23:10.490 --> 00:23:13.390 are the person's skills, strengths and weaknesses 00:23:13.390 --> 00:23:15.390 when it comes to their independent living skills 00:23:15.390 --> 00:23:19.890 or activities of daily living, right? So if you 00:23:19.890 --> 00:23:22.670 brought them to a store, for example, could they 00:23:22.670 --> 00:23:26.789 go and follow a grocery list, pay at the counter, 00:23:26.990 --> 00:23:29.660 get change? All of those different things right 00:23:29.660 --> 00:23:31.660 now, we're looking to self care. We're looking 00:23:31.660 --> 00:23:34.460 into independence. We're looking into functional 00:23:34.460 --> 00:23:37.140 communication, right? If they needed help out 00:23:37.140 --> 00:23:40.420 in public, could they ask someone for help? So 00:23:40.420 --> 00:23:43.259 we're looking to all these other areas now. And 00:23:43.259 --> 00:23:45.380 that's what also determines the intellectual 00:23:45.380 --> 00:23:49.079 disability piece is that if the person is really 00:23:49.079 --> 00:23:51.859 struggling and they're following again below 00:23:51.859 --> 00:23:55.039 the normative population, again, these tests 00:23:55.039 --> 00:23:58.769 are standardized. And if they are falling, below 00:23:58.769 --> 00:24:01.490 that average range, you know, first of all, what 00:24:01.490 --> 00:24:03.930 range are they falling into and the severity 00:24:03.930 --> 00:24:08.529 of their ability to live on their own or independently? 00:24:08.930 --> 00:24:11.630 For sure. And I think, yeah, that actually brings 00:24:11.630 --> 00:24:14.250 up a point from our first episode on this is 00:24:14.250 --> 00:24:20.529 that again, the the range, the the way that We 00:24:20.529 --> 00:24:22.910 interpret these results, right? So I'll give 00:24:22.910 --> 00:24:26.250 you an example. Like, let's say the cutoff is 00:24:26.250 --> 00:24:29.089 70 IQ. That might not mean a lot to different 00:24:29.089 --> 00:24:31.470 people, but it's, it's, it's a score that you 00:24:31.470 --> 00:24:34.210 can, you could get, you could get below 70 or 00:24:34.210 --> 00:24:40.009 above 70. Say someone scores 71, right? And the 00:24:40.009 --> 00:24:42.710 bureaucracy or the people that are reviewing 00:24:42.710 --> 00:24:45.490 these scores and these assessments, and they 00:24:45.490 --> 00:24:48.329 say, no, you don't qualify for this support because 00:24:48.329 --> 00:24:51.529 you scored too high on the IQ score. And I've 00:24:51.529 --> 00:24:53.329 actually seen this where the psychologist had 00:24:53.329 --> 00:24:56.849 to write an additional letter explaining where 00:24:56.849 --> 00:25:02.950 the range is still below 70 and above 70. Looking 00:25:02.950 --> 00:25:05.970 at this individuals areas of functioning like 00:25:05.970 --> 00:25:08.549 you're saying so say they have another diagnosis 00:25:08.549 --> 00:25:13.230 like autism or Something else that could be you 00:25:13.230 --> 00:25:16.710 know, you can have more than one Challenge and 00:25:16.710 --> 00:25:19.289 all of a sudden this person absolutely should 00:25:19.289 --> 00:25:24.190 qualify for these financial Subsidies right because 00:25:24.190 --> 00:25:26.890 they they cannot live on their own like you're 00:25:26.890 --> 00:25:29.250 saying that independent living is just not possible 00:25:29.599 --> 00:25:32.119 But if someone strictly is just going off of, 00:25:32.259 --> 00:25:34.539 okay, well, they scored 71 or 72, so they don't 00:25:34.539 --> 00:25:38.940 qualify. Like that is, yeah, that's the pet peeve 00:25:38.940 --> 00:25:42.640 of mine. Yeah. These diagnostics has so many 00:25:42.640 --> 00:25:47.539 implications to, you know, financial implications, 00:25:48.200 --> 00:25:50.440 you know, like you said, government supports, 00:25:50.440 --> 00:25:53.440 right? So if we do diagnose someone with an intellectual 00:25:53.440 --> 00:25:56.930 disability, They may be given grants here in 00:25:56.930 --> 00:25:59.930 Ontario, right? Financial grants to help them. 00:26:00.230 --> 00:26:04.849 They can be accepted into certain programs because, 00:26:04.849 --> 00:26:07.769 you know, sometimes individuals will have difficulty 00:26:07.769 --> 00:26:10.410 thriving in the workplace if they do have an 00:26:10.410 --> 00:26:13.670 intellectual disability. So they may join day 00:26:13.670 --> 00:26:17.309 programs. Right? And so there there are, again, 00:26:17.950 --> 00:26:21.970 significant implications to these types of assessments. 00:26:22.369 --> 00:26:24.690 And I really don't want to underscore that because 00:26:24.690 --> 00:26:27.589 families need the help, individuals need the 00:26:27.589 --> 00:26:31.569 help. Again, I'm speaking for those in Canada, 00:26:32.190 --> 00:26:34.750 or me specifically here in Ontario, you know, 00:26:34.789 --> 00:26:36.710 other countries may have other services, which 00:26:36.710 --> 00:26:38.990 is great. Others may not have any services, you 00:26:38.990 --> 00:26:42.210 know, but that's what happens here. For sure. 00:26:42.210 --> 00:26:44.940 And I think one other thing to Re -highlight 00:26:44.940 --> 00:26:47.599 from the first episode is that if your child 00:26:47.599 --> 00:26:51.619 is tested at say You know seven years old and 00:26:51.619 --> 00:26:54.500 they fall within this category. They're likely 00:26:54.500 --> 00:26:56.579 gonna stay there They're not this isn't something 00:26:56.579 --> 00:26:59.539 that they're gonna grow out of right or or maybe 00:26:59.539 --> 00:27:03.099 they need a tutor and then it'll get better It's 00:27:03.099 --> 00:27:06.319 it's like this is considered a neurodevelopmental 00:27:06.319 --> 00:27:08.920 condition that stays with someone for their entire 00:27:08.920 --> 00:27:11.299 life And this is where I think our counseling 00:27:11.299 --> 00:27:15.219 and therapy skills come into play Caregivers 00:27:15.219 --> 00:27:19.180 hearing news like this, it's never easy. You 00:27:19.180 --> 00:27:21.160 know, sometimes it can turn their world upside 00:27:21.160 --> 00:27:24.660 down. And as we've talked about in grief and 00:27:24.660 --> 00:27:27.519 lost that episode before, there can be grieving, 00:27:28.420 --> 00:27:31.960 right? Many people will have certain expectations 00:27:31.960 --> 00:27:35.819 of their children, but when They're having such 00:27:35.819 --> 00:27:38.779 significant challenges and difficulties and you 00:27:38.779 --> 00:27:40.799 know, you have to change sort of your expectations. 00:27:41.140 --> 00:27:44.200 It's very, very challenging. So yeah, a lot of 00:27:44.200 --> 00:27:47.539 compassion, a lot of understanding and allowing 00:27:47.539 --> 00:27:50.960 people to kind of digest the information and 00:27:50.960 --> 00:27:54.420 then answer questions. Unfortunately, a lot of 00:27:54.420 --> 00:27:57.059 these assessments, there's a quick debrief that 00:27:57.059 --> 00:28:00.069 happens afterwards. That's where I end up seeing 00:28:00.069 --> 00:28:02.490 a lot of parents that are left with questions 00:28:02.490 --> 00:28:05.470 or left with like maybe misunderstandings of 00:28:05.470 --> 00:28:08.890 what the report or the assessment actually kind 00:28:08.890 --> 00:28:11.609 of means for their child. So, yeah, the debrief 00:28:11.609 --> 00:28:14.190 is so important. The debrief to me is not just 00:28:14.190 --> 00:28:16.349 a debrief to say, OK, these are the results and 00:28:16.349 --> 00:28:19.410 you know, you go on your merry way. It's really 00:28:19.410 --> 00:28:23.089 I believe in hand holding the parents, especially 00:28:23.089 --> 00:28:26.990 when I know that it's going to be a tough, a 00:28:26.990 --> 00:28:32.720 tough news of a diagnosis, and just knowing the 00:28:32.720 --> 00:28:36.200 families who I work with as well. Now, I just 00:28:36.200 --> 00:28:38.339 want to place a caveat out there. Here in Ontario, 00:28:38.400 --> 00:28:41.200 it's very confusing. You can also be identified 00:28:41.200 --> 00:28:43.619 through the Ministry of Education with a mild 00:28:43.619 --> 00:28:46.740 intellectual disability. If you see that in a 00:28:46.740 --> 00:28:49.849 report, it is not a diagnosis. I'm not even going 00:28:49.849 --> 00:28:51.789 to get into that because it's just going to confuse 00:28:51.789 --> 00:28:54.549 people even more. But in terms of this discussion, 00:28:54.589 --> 00:28:58.390 we'll just leave it as the DSM -5 diagnosis of 00:28:58.390 --> 00:29:00.829 an intellectual disability, and then you can 00:29:00.829 --> 00:29:05.309 have mild, moderate, or severe range. Okay? So 00:29:05.309 --> 00:29:09.630 I'll leave it at that. It's very confusing out 00:29:09.630 --> 00:29:12.509 here. I know. And we could do more and more episodes 00:29:12.509 --> 00:29:16.049 on each specific thing. So hopefully, this just 00:29:16.049 --> 00:29:22.559 kind of gives you some direction. And I actually 00:29:22.559 --> 00:29:25.819 want to shift gears completely and look at the 00:29:25.819 --> 00:29:28.779 other end of the, you know, the bell curve to 00:29:28.779 --> 00:29:33.279 the giftedness range, right? So scoring above 00:29:33.279 --> 00:29:39.180 130 typically is correct me if I'm wrong. 98th 00:29:39.180 --> 00:29:41.519 percentile or higher. Yeah. So you're talking 00:29:41.519 --> 00:29:44.619 about the top two percentile of the population. 00:29:44.920 --> 00:29:47.779 Yeah. Of the, you know, the normed population. 00:29:48.059 --> 00:29:51.640 So if you score there, all of the norming, all 00:29:51.640 --> 00:29:54.880 of the pre -testing that was done less than or 00:29:54.880 --> 00:29:58.779 2 % or less scored within that range. And so 00:29:58.779 --> 00:30:02.259 if you score there, then you're considered or 00:30:02.259 --> 00:30:05.180 you can be, again, I don't think it's a, is it 00:30:05.180 --> 00:30:08.160 a diagnosis? It's an identification of giftedness. 00:30:08.259 --> 00:30:11.380 Yeah. It's not a diagnosis. It's an identification, 00:30:11.579 --> 00:30:14.720 but I think I don't know what your take on it 00:30:14.720 --> 00:30:16.859 is, Dave. I don't know if listeners already sort 00:30:16.859 --> 00:30:21.559 of see my bias with it, is that it's a societal 00:30:21.559 --> 00:30:27.119 construct of what giftedness is. Are you exposed 00:30:27.119 --> 00:30:30.240 to certain opportunities? How much does your 00:30:30.240 --> 00:30:34.420 family value that idea of the label of giftedness? 00:30:34.500 --> 00:30:38.549 I know that. There are ways that, you know, some, 00:30:38.549 --> 00:30:41.390 some parents will quote unquote train their kids 00:30:41.390 --> 00:30:45.470 and before doing the tests, you know, there are, 00:30:45.529 --> 00:30:46.950 you know, it's nuts out here. I don't know if 00:30:46.950 --> 00:30:48.829 you've heard of anything in Edmonton or in Alberta, 00:30:49.450 --> 00:30:51.990 but here in the greater Toronto area, there are 00:30:51.990 --> 00:30:57.089 people who will say that they train students 00:30:57.089 --> 00:31:02.490 to do very well or ACE the gifted testing. Like 00:31:02.490 --> 00:31:06.599 it's, it's something else. It is, it is. And 00:31:06.599 --> 00:31:08.680 I think we kind of touched on it in the first 00:31:08.680 --> 00:31:11.640 episode, but you know, when we're looking at 00:31:11.640 --> 00:31:15.740 intelligence or IQ testing, that is just one 00:31:15.740 --> 00:31:19.250 part of someone's, you know, profile and so if 00:31:19.250 --> 00:31:22.089 because they score high on IQ tests they're labeled 00:31:22.089 --> 00:31:26.230 as gifted like they could be gifted in many other 00:31:26.230 --> 00:31:28.509 areas like children can have different gifts 00:31:28.509 --> 00:31:31.589 in different areas so I have a hard time or calling 00:31:31.589 --> 00:31:35.329 someone smart like are they book smart are they 00:31:35.329 --> 00:31:38.170 good at memorization are they like there's different 00:31:38.170 --> 00:31:41.250 so I think these broad terms but they do have 00:31:41.250 --> 00:31:46.500 a societal weight to them. And I think, you know, 00:31:46.519 --> 00:31:49.440 I was saying off air too, that testing a four 00:31:49.440 --> 00:31:53.380 year old, right? Uh, for an IQ test. And then 00:31:53.380 --> 00:31:56.200 because it's the requirement to get into the 00:31:56.200 --> 00:32:00.019 gifted kindergarten program, right? Like this 00:32:00.019 --> 00:32:03.980 is a real thing. Like, yeah, you know, and, and, 00:32:03.980 --> 00:32:06.819 and doing that test, it's like, we know the younger 00:32:06.819 --> 00:32:09.420 the kid is, the more variability there are, right? 00:32:09.519 --> 00:32:14.130 The, the the measurement error is greater. So 00:32:14.130 --> 00:32:18.309 we put a lot of weight or some people or some 00:32:18.309 --> 00:32:21.289 schools will put a lot of weight on that test 00:32:21.289 --> 00:32:24.990 and then restrict which kids can join that program. 00:32:25.210 --> 00:32:28.730 And I do have a hard time with that. Yep. Same 00:32:28.730 --> 00:32:31.470 here. And I think, look, I think there are some 00:32:31.470 --> 00:32:36.220 kids who are naturally gifted. And, you know, 00:32:36.259 --> 00:32:38.500 I've seen it where parents just they don't even 00:32:38.500 --> 00:32:40.960 know that we're going to do this kind of testing 00:32:40.960 --> 00:32:43.779 at the school board. It's like, you know, they're 00:32:43.779 --> 00:32:46.839 oblivious to it. And they're like, it's obvious 00:32:46.839 --> 00:32:49.200 that they never trained for it. There is no, 00:32:49.200 --> 00:32:52.259 you know, inkling that, you know, their child 00:32:52.259 --> 00:32:55.079 was even gifted. And they show up as they are, 00:32:55.519 --> 00:32:57.859 which is, you know what? Great. You know, they 00:32:57.859 --> 00:32:59.839 have this different program for for students 00:32:59.839 --> 00:33:02.220 like that. And I will say that it's a different 00:33:02.220 --> 00:33:05.190 kind of teaching. and there's a lot of inquiry 00:33:05.190 --> 00:33:08.890 work, maybe more independent projects, maybe 00:33:08.890 --> 00:33:11.490 they go, you know, two steps a little bit more, 00:33:11.490 --> 00:33:14.589 because yes, these students may learn a little 00:33:14.589 --> 00:33:17.809 bit quicker, grasp concepts quicker. And so teachers 00:33:17.809 --> 00:33:20.470 are able to say, okay, let's go, let's take extra 00:33:20.470 --> 00:33:23.289 two steps to learn a little bit more about this 00:33:23.289 --> 00:33:26.190 particular concept. So yeah, there is a different 00:33:26.190 --> 00:33:30.509 way of teaching. But I think what grinds my gears 00:33:31.539 --> 00:33:34.900 is when we get referrals and you can tell that 00:33:34.900 --> 00:33:37.359 the parents are wanting something that may not 00:33:37.359 --> 00:33:40.200 be the case, right? So how do I get my child 00:33:40.200 --> 00:33:42.819 to become gifted? You know, even after I tell 00:33:42.819 --> 00:33:45.279 them the results and I tell them it's just a 00:33:45.279 --> 00:33:47.460 snapshot, you know, your child is, you know, 00:33:47.519 --> 00:33:49.059 these scores are amazing. They're really good. 00:33:49.099 --> 00:33:51.019 They're not in the gifted range, but it's really 00:33:51.019 --> 00:33:54.119 good. It's like, okay, well, you said I can't 00:33:54.119 --> 00:33:56.180 be tested or my child can't be tested for another 00:33:56.180 --> 00:33:58.720 two years. How do I prepare for that two years 00:33:58.720 --> 00:34:02.819 from now? It's like, ah, really? No, I hear you. 00:34:03.079 --> 00:34:05.920 I hear you. If the school identifies a child, 00:34:05.920 --> 00:34:09.119 right? And then that referral goes in, that's 00:34:09.119 --> 00:34:12.239 a lot different than a parent wanting their child 00:34:12.239 --> 00:34:15.380 to be something that they may or may not be. 00:34:15.460 --> 00:34:17.340 And again, when you're looking at a three or 00:34:17.340 --> 00:34:20.119 four year old and the parent is like, I think 00:34:20.119 --> 00:34:24.380 my kid is gifted. It's like, Yeah, and when I'm 00:34:24.380 --> 00:34:26.800 doing that assessment, a part of me is like, 00:34:26.800 --> 00:34:29.340 oh, I'm gonna, like you said, the debrief, right? 00:34:29.460 --> 00:34:32.380 And, and possibly giving a diagnosis. This isn't 00:34:32.380 --> 00:34:35.420 giving a diagnosis. This is telling a parent 00:34:35.420 --> 00:34:38.440 at times that their child is, like you said, 00:34:38.579 --> 00:34:40.659 could be really bright, could have a lot of strengths, 00:34:40.900 --> 00:34:44.179 but they don't fall in the gifted range and they 00:34:44.179 --> 00:34:48.460 don't get that label. We won't even do a gifted 00:34:48.460 --> 00:34:51.460 testing until a child is in grade three and eight 00:34:51.460 --> 00:34:53.500 years old minimum. Because here in the school 00:34:53.500 --> 00:34:55.860 boards, at least in the public school boards, 00:34:56.539 --> 00:34:58.340 they won't even take an assessment that's done 00:34:58.340 --> 00:35:01.480 earlier than that. You know, the brain needs 00:35:01.480 --> 00:35:03.820 time to develop. You know, the child needs time 00:35:03.820 --> 00:35:06.880 in the classroom to develop and to see where 00:35:06.880 --> 00:35:10.639 their skills are. And like you said, the greater 00:35:10.639 --> 00:35:13.909 the measurement error when they're younger. Right. 00:35:13.909 --> 00:35:15.989 So school boards here won't even take a look 00:35:15.989 --> 00:35:18.750 at them if they're done any younger, any earlier 00:35:18.750 --> 00:35:21.429 than grade three and eight years old. But, you 00:35:21.429 --> 00:35:25.289 know, again, there's, there's so much, I sometimes 00:35:25.289 --> 00:35:28.409 find there's so much riding, more so with the 00:35:28.409 --> 00:35:31.630 parents than the kids. And unfortunately, you 00:35:31.630 --> 00:35:34.210 know, I've seen so many cases of this where the 00:35:34.210 --> 00:35:36.050 children become the victims of their parents' 00:35:36.269 --> 00:35:40.969 expectations. Right. And so, you know, a child 00:35:40.969 --> 00:35:43.510 may come into the office, And they'll tell me, 00:35:43.630 --> 00:35:46.170 you know, I'm nervous, you know, I really want 00:35:46.170 --> 00:35:51.070 to be in this program. But who planted that seed? 00:35:53.929 --> 00:35:56.849 Right. And and, you know, when when a child feels 00:35:56.849 --> 00:35:59.250 that kind of pressure, a lot of the time, I just 00:35:59.250 --> 00:36:01.670 want to say to parents, you know, just let a 00:36:01.670 --> 00:36:06.429 child be a child. And, you know, the way I see 00:36:06.429 --> 00:36:08.409 it, too, is that if your child isn't gifted. 00:36:09.130 --> 00:36:11.409 or doesn't reach that level in terms of their 00:36:11.409 --> 00:36:14.050 scores, they're still going to do great in school, 00:36:14.769 --> 00:36:16.469 right? From what I can see in the scores, they're 00:36:16.469 --> 00:36:18.829 still going to do great. They'll still be able 00:36:18.829 --> 00:36:22.289 to learn a lot. Obviously as parents, many of 00:36:22.289 --> 00:36:24.849 them will give their children opportunities outside 00:36:24.849 --> 00:36:28.909 of school to also learn. So, you know, it's not 00:36:28.909 --> 00:36:33.570 a be all and end all. No. And again, let's put 00:36:33.570 --> 00:36:37.090 this in context. Like it is one part of this 00:36:37.210 --> 00:36:41.469 you know one factor right we talked about motivation 00:36:41.469 --> 00:36:46.210 and effort and grit and you know socioeconomic 00:36:46.210 --> 00:36:49.250 status right when we're looking at some of these 00:36:49.250 --> 00:36:52.150 gifted and talented programs how many of these 00:36:52.150 --> 00:36:55.809 students actually come from upper socioeconomic 00:36:55.809 --> 00:36:59.329 status right like there are a lot of factors 00:36:59.329 --> 00:37:02.849 that go into and i think sometimes just There 00:37:02.849 --> 00:37:05.590 is, there's pressure on parents and there is, 00:37:05.590 --> 00:37:07.730 you know, parent shaming. And even when we look 00:37:07.730 --> 00:37:11.210 at nature versus nurture, some of the, some of 00:37:11.210 --> 00:37:14.389 the folks that are really promoting this like 00:37:14.389 --> 00:37:17.690 environmental factor that, that the environment 00:37:17.690 --> 00:37:21.070 affects intelligence and that there is very little 00:37:21.070 --> 00:37:24.150 genetic component to it. That's risky too, because 00:37:24.150 --> 00:37:26.369 all of a sudden you're saying, well, parenting 00:37:26.369 --> 00:37:29.809 is what affects intelligence. And so if you have 00:37:29.809 --> 00:37:32.309 a bright student, that's good parenting. And 00:37:32.309 --> 00:37:34.429 if you have a student who's struggling, that's 00:37:34.429 --> 00:37:36.630 probably because there was bad parenting. And 00:37:36.630 --> 00:37:39.789 we just, oh, we don't want to go down that path, 00:37:39.789 --> 00:37:43.030 right? It's funny. I'll self -disclose here a 00:37:43.030 --> 00:37:46.570 little bit. So. I'm not gifted, but my brother 00:37:46.570 --> 00:37:48.889 -in -law and my sister are. They were deemed 00:37:48.889 --> 00:37:51.610 gifted, right? And actually it was a, I want 00:37:51.610 --> 00:37:53.489 to say it was a month ago, maybe or two months 00:37:53.489 --> 00:37:56.329 ago, because my daughter was talking about, you 00:37:56.329 --> 00:37:59.110 know, a couple of friends who went to the gifted 00:37:59.110 --> 00:38:03.289 program. And, you know, this could have been 00:38:03.289 --> 00:38:06.489 my, my sister saying this just to my daughter, 00:38:06.510 --> 00:38:10.389 just to, to soothe her a little bit. But, you 00:38:10.389 --> 00:38:12.170 know, my sister's like, and my brother -in -law, 00:38:12.230 --> 00:38:17.070 but they're like, it's overrated. Like it's overrated. 00:38:17.070 --> 00:38:19.269 It's like we all come out on the same playing 00:38:19.269 --> 00:38:21.670 level of playing field at the end of the day, 00:38:21.869 --> 00:38:24.050 right? You go off to university, there's no gifted 00:38:24.050 --> 00:38:27.530 university, right? I have a friend who's also, 00:38:27.530 --> 00:38:30.050 I was in the gifted program. So at my high school, 00:38:30.230 --> 00:38:31.730 there was the gifted stream. There was a non 00:38:31.730 --> 00:38:34.690 gifted stream, but we all became friends. And 00:38:34.690 --> 00:38:38.369 one of my friends always says, I'm pretty sure 00:38:38.369 --> 00:38:40.429 I don't know how I got in the gifted program, 00:38:40.429 --> 00:38:45.800 but I'm sure I was not gifted. It made no difference 00:38:45.800 --> 00:38:50.659 in my life at the end of the day. And look, I 00:38:50.659 --> 00:38:54.619 think having more life experience now, again, 00:38:54.760 --> 00:38:56.800 I have friends who are gifted and those who are 00:38:56.800 --> 00:39:01.519 not gifted, and everybody goes through the same 00:39:01.519 --> 00:39:03.880 challenges at the end of the day. We go through 00:39:03.880 --> 00:39:07.079 the same celebrations, the same challenges. I 00:39:07.079 --> 00:39:09.079 have friends who have mental health challenges. 00:39:09.860 --> 00:39:13.889 They did amazingly well in school. gifted programs, 00:39:14.190 --> 00:39:19.110 university, really crazy hard programs, but they 00:39:19.110 --> 00:39:21.090 struggle with social challenges, mental health 00:39:21.090 --> 00:39:24.849 challenges. So at the end of the day, as much 00:39:24.849 --> 00:39:27.369 as some parents and caregivers may ride on this 00:39:27.369 --> 00:39:30.949 whole gifted label, please don't forget that 00:39:30.949 --> 00:39:36.010 there's way more to life than this identification. 00:39:36.510 --> 00:39:40.269 there's a lot more and so again hopefully this 00:39:40.269 --> 00:39:43.130 this episode it puts things in perspective a 00:39:43.130 --> 00:39:45.829 little bit because there's a lot of misunderstandings 00:39:45.829 --> 00:39:48.809 right and some people might think that if my 00:39:48.809 --> 00:39:51.750 kid gets into the gifted program their life is 00:39:51.750 --> 00:39:54.929 going to be on a certain trajectory right and 00:39:54.929 --> 00:39:58.389 we know we know that is not the case right and 00:39:58.389 --> 00:40:00.170 and even when i said this at the beginning of 00:40:00.170 --> 00:40:05.099 the episode about that uh mensa group right It's 00:40:05.099 --> 00:40:07.980 a, you know, it can feel good to be in this like 00:40:07.980 --> 00:40:10.880 elite group of people that have a certain level 00:40:10.880 --> 00:40:14.960 of intelligence. But in terms of like life satisfaction, 00:40:15.460 --> 00:40:20.840 meaning, success, it's not really that correlated 00:40:20.840 --> 00:40:25.960 to high intelligence. No, not at all. The research 00:40:25.960 --> 00:40:28.460 has shown that it's so important to take care 00:40:28.460 --> 00:40:33.420 of yourself and all facets and work hard, right? 00:40:34.450 --> 00:40:39.130 develop grit, develop a strong work ethic, because 00:40:39.130 --> 00:40:42.210 even when I hire at my clinic, to be very honest, 00:40:42.949 --> 00:40:45.369 like, you can be the brightest and you can show 00:40:45.369 --> 00:40:49.730 me your GPA and all this other stuff. But if 00:40:49.730 --> 00:40:53.030 you can't demonstrate a strong work ethic, then 00:40:53.030 --> 00:40:57.030 I would say professionalism and just good people 00:40:57.030 --> 00:40:59.809 skills. Back to our episode with Sean Barford 00:40:59.809 --> 00:41:03.920 about running a private practice. If you can't 00:41:03.920 --> 00:41:08.599 show a client a positive experience, I probably 00:41:08.599 --> 00:41:12.840 won't hire you at the clinic. You can be the 00:41:12.840 --> 00:41:16.760 smartest person in the world. Yeah, so again, 00:41:16.940 --> 00:41:20.800 just in a summary, like IQ scores that are correlated, 00:41:21.079 --> 00:41:24.320 they predict school... achievement, academic 00:41:24.320 --> 00:41:27.440 performance, that is the biggest predictor. But 00:41:27.440 --> 00:41:32.239 even that is still not, it's not 100%. But that 00:41:32.239 --> 00:41:34.440 is what you would expect that if someone with 00:41:34.440 --> 00:41:38.139 a high IQ will do better or find school a bit 00:41:38.139 --> 00:41:40.860 easier than someone with a lower IQ. That's it. 00:41:41.340 --> 00:41:43.900 In terms of what it doesn't predict, it doesn't 00:41:43.900 --> 00:41:46.340 predict happiness, it doesn't predict actually 00:41:46.340 --> 00:41:50.489 how creative, how successful someone might be 00:41:50.489 --> 00:41:54.349 in those professions that require creativity 00:41:54.349 --> 00:41:59.690 and problem solving. Dave, I'm so glad you brought 00:41:59.690 --> 00:42:01.650 that up. That didn't even cross my mind for today, 00:42:01.710 --> 00:42:05.949 but yes, creativity to me is huge. Novel problem 00:42:05.949 --> 00:42:09.670 solving and creativity. Well, and then social 00:42:09.670 --> 00:42:12.409 skills, right? Like emotional awareness, emotional 00:42:12.409 --> 00:42:14.750 intelligence, like all of those pieces that is 00:42:14.750 --> 00:42:20.679 not connected to IQ at all. And so, yeah, hopefully 00:42:20.679 --> 00:42:25.000 people get a better understanding of what IQ 00:42:25.000 --> 00:42:28.639 scores are, what they kind of mean generally, 00:42:28.719 --> 00:42:30.960 what they're used for and what they shouldn't 00:42:30.960 --> 00:42:35.739 be used for or they shouldn't mean. Yeah, no, 00:42:35.900 --> 00:42:39.199 I hope we did that part. And at the end of the 00:42:39.199 --> 00:42:43.460 day, let kids be kids, right? Give them the opportunities. 00:42:44.079 --> 00:42:47.420 You know some will thrive in certain areas others 00:42:47.420 --> 00:42:52.159 will thrive in other areas and I would say for 00:42:52.159 --> 00:42:54.539 the most part, let's accept our kids for who 00:42:54.539 --> 00:42:58.880 they are and provide them with that positive 00:42:58.880 --> 00:43:02.860 upbringing so that their mental health is at 00:43:02.860 --> 00:43:05.519 its, uh, at its peak. It's not just kids though. 00:43:05.519 --> 00:43:07.579 I was just thinking like before we end, I have 00:43:07.579 --> 00:43:10.000 to say this because people come into my office 00:43:10.000 --> 00:43:13.400 and they're like, yeah, I got an IQ of 135 or 00:43:13.400 --> 00:43:16.300 130. And again, that puts you in the top two 00:43:16.300 --> 00:43:18.840 percentile, right? Uh, if you've been listening 00:43:18.840 --> 00:43:21.639 to the full episode and that technically would 00:43:21.639 --> 00:43:24.840 put you into the gifted range, but how, where, 00:43:24.840 --> 00:43:26.840 where did you get your IQ tested or how do you 00:43:26.840 --> 00:43:28.880 know your IQ score? And it's like, well, it was 00:43:28.880 --> 00:43:31.820 on a, uh, a thing on the internet. I just, you 00:43:31.820 --> 00:43:35.110 know, did the test on the internet. Like that 00:43:35.110 --> 00:43:39.690 is not a test that gives you an accurate IQ score. 00:43:40.230 --> 00:43:42.590 So unfortunately for those that are listening 00:43:42.590 --> 00:43:44.949 that might have thought, okay, it might give 00:43:44.949 --> 00:43:49.710 you a ballpark ish kind of score, but you do 00:43:49.710 --> 00:43:52.829 not get your IQ tested on the internet. Well, 00:43:52.949 --> 00:43:55.789 unless you're doing a virtual assessment. It's 00:43:55.789 --> 00:43:57.869 so interesting. I've had clients again, we've 00:43:57.869 --> 00:44:00.130 been practicing for a long time. I've had, I've 00:44:00.130 --> 00:44:04.050 had a few clients who have told me that they 00:44:04.050 --> 00:44:06.969 wish they never knew they were gifted or they 00:44:06.969 --> 00:44:10.570 wish they never attended a gifted program. I 00:44:10.570 --> 00:44:14.590 think there's like, again, expectations, adult 00:44:14.590 --> 00:44:17.789 expectations and implications to that, which 00:44:17.789 --> 00:44:20.150 to me, I was like, again, because I was never 00:44:20.150 --> 00:44:23.349 in that kind of program, but it's, it's a very 00:44:23.349 --> 00:44:25.150 interesting statement that they would say something 00:44:25.150 --> 00:44:33.090 like that. Well, this was fun. Yeah, that was 00:44:33.090 --> 00:44:37.750 fun. And, you know, this was this was easy in 00:44:37.750 --> 00:44:41.250 a sense to record this today, the two episodes, 00:44:41.309 --> 00:44:45.670 we do so much of this type of assessment. And, 00:44:45.670 --> 00:44:47.969 yeah, working in the school board for a number 00:44:47.969 --> 00:44:50.050 of years and now private practice, it's exposed 00:44:50.050 --> 00:44:53.570 me to so much along these lines. So thanks for 00:44:53.570 --> 00:44:55.610 bringing up. It was your suggestion to talk about 00:44:55.610 --> 00:44:57.989 this today. Well, thanks for bringing all your 00:44:57.989 --> 00:45:00.650 experience and wisdom. So this, yeah, this was 00:45:00.650 --> 00:45:03.510 fun. And again, I think the way, when I think 00:45:03.510 --> 00:45:05.349 about these podcasts, it's like, what are things 00:45:05.349 --> 00:45:08.190 that I'm talking about in my office that it would 00:45:08.190 --> 00:45:11.670 be nice to share with the general public? And 00:45:11.670 --> 00:45:14.130 hopefully those that are looking for information 00:45:14.130 --> 00:45:17.969 around this can find this and at least get some 00:45:17.969 --> 00:45:19.929 direction. They might need to talk with someone 00:45:19.929 --> 00:45:23.719 more specifically, but this kind of At least 00:45:23.719 --> 00:45:28.539 we kind of do a lot of myth busting, right? And 00:45:28.539 --> 00:45:31.239 correcting some misinformation that keeps showing 00:45:31.239 --> 00:45:33.760 up in our office, right? And that affect how 00:45:33.760 --> 00:45:36.099 people make decisions for themselves or for their 00:45:36.099 --> 00:45:38.639 children or for their family. And it's just, 00:45:39.360 --> 00:45:42.599 yeah, I think this is a free resource that hopefully 00:45:42.599 --> 00:45:46.590 can help people. Alright, if you've enjoyed this 00:45:46.590 --> 00:45:49.670 episode and you're enjoying the podcast, please 00:45:49.670 --> 00:45:53.170 subscribe, share, follow, give us a thumbs up, 00:45:53.369 --> 00:45:56.429 send us questions and comments. It's been a really 00:45:56.429 --> 00:45:58.449 fun ride and it still is. We've been doing this 00:45:58.449 --> 00:46:03.670 for over a year and the data is showing us that 00:46:03.670 --> 00:46:06.150 it's blowing up a little bit here, so that's 00:46:06.150 --> 00:46:09.090 a lot of fun to see as well. So share with those 00:46:09.090 --> 00:46:12.469 who you think will enjoy it, who you think might 00:46:12.469 --> 00:46:15.829 find it useful, and we'll keep doing this. And 00:46:15.829 --> 00:46:18.630 in the meantime, until we record again, take 00:46:18.630 --> 00:46:20.769 good care. Yeah. And hopefully by the time this 00:46:20.769 --> 00:46:23.110 gets released, Canada has a win in the World 00:46:23.110 --> 00:46:27.670 Cup. Wishful thinking. We'll see. All right. 00:46:27.769 --> 00:46:30.070 Take care, Andrew. Take care, everyone. Take 00:46:30.070 --> 00:46:30.429 good care.