You know, we get so many families because they
want the help, right? They want to see their
child thrive. But to your point in the last episode
about having glasses and no glasses, if you go
to an optometrist who fails to see that the child
is having vision problems and they don't prescribe
prescriptive lenses, that child's going to keep
struggling in school because they can't see the
board at the front. Hello and welcome. We're
so glad you're tuning into the Taking Good Care
show. I'm Dr. Andrew Wong, based in Toronto,
Canada. And I'm Dr. David San Arno, based in
Edmonton, Canada. We're two practicing psychologists
with over a decade of experience each working
in a variety of settings and supporting diverse
populations. Thanks for joining us. We hope you
enjoy today's episode. While we're both practicing
psychologists, Our podcast is intended purely
for educational and entertainment purposes. It's
not a substitute for professional mental health
care or treatment. If you're in need of support,
we strongly encourage you to reach out to a licensed
mental health professional in your area. All
right. Welcome back, Andrew. Here we go. Second
part of intelligence. But i you know just off
the air like literally thirty seconds ago i like
the way you put it it's like okay how do we apply
our last discussion of intelligence of iq to
the real world now and i think we alluded to
a bunch of stuff uh in the previous episode um
with respect to possible learning disabilities
giftedness and so on and a little bit about you
know how we can help people find their path uh
when it comes to careers and post -secondary
schools, if that's their path. So we're going
to funnel that down now to how this helps students,
adults in the real world, at least here in, I
want to say North America, but maybe it's safer
to say Canada. Yeah, probably safer to say that
because that's what we know. That's where we
work. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. I like to think
about it like the role IQ testing or IQ scores
play. in our lives, right, or in society. So
that can be assessments, like you're saying,
and diagnosis, but also like I was just looking
up that Mensa, right? I forget what Mensa actually
stands for, but it's essentially, you have to
have a certain IQ score tested at one of their
approved testing places, and you have to be in
the top 2 % to join this club, right? So, and
this club has been around for a while. There
was ideas, I think, way back that if people with
high IQs got together and procreated, that we
would just create this really super quote unquote,
smart society. And they would, you know, like,
and it's been around for a long time. And I don't
think all that much has really changed. I don't
think, you know, all of the Mensa folks are running
the world or, you know, showing success in all
areas of life. So. but it is kind of a neat like
experiment that has happened. Well, this is again,
another discussion that I've had with parents
before when it comes to that top 2%, the giftedness.
If only the top 2 % ran this world, we'd be in
trouble. We'd be in trouble. Um, and so, no,
it's not just the top 2 % who run the world.
Many, many people from different backgrounds,
different abilities. I go back to different strengths
and weaknesses when it comes to one's cognitive
profile, right? You will gravitate towards work.
That is your strength. I wanted to make a comment.
Actually, I wanted to make it last episode, but
it escaped me like with ADHD, uh, attention.
executive function that is one diagnosis one
area of concern that can really affect someone's
testing scores right so that is one like if someone's
getting an assessment a psychoetic assessment
and uh that might be listed as like these results
should be interpreted with caution because the
student had difficulty attending to the to the
exam or to the the subtests right and that'll
show up a lot in like processing speed where
either it takes them really long to do it or
they're making careless kind of errors right
so again as a clinician we're looking at all
of these kind of uh things that we're measuring
to come up with our best guess at why this student
is either doing really well or struggling in
school and lots of times they're flagged because
they are struggling in school and we're looking
at why they might be struggling and IQ alone
IQ alone might be that answer it might be that
they're actually i've seen this even in my office
where a student with counseling and they've gotten
really good at faking that they understand something
by like nodding and smiling and then they get
an IQ test and their verbal comprehension is
terrible like they they do not really understand
language to the degree that you would expect
a child of that age or even in that grade right
we just make assumptions by looking at kids and
talking to them And so it really helped kind
of shift the therapy, the treatment, the way
that I was interacting with this child once I
had that information. So some kids could be sitting
in class and it's going right over their head.
They are not comprehending, they are not understanding,
but they don't stand out because they're not,
unless they're failing exams or showing difficulties
in other ways, they might get missed. Yeah, so
this is typically your... quiet child sitting
at the desk may look like he or she's following
along but really they might be zoning out or
daydreaming and they sort of get lost in the
shuffle because they're not they're not problematic
so to speak right and it's not until a lot of
the time parents will be like you know what we're
noticing that The grades aren't quite there.
The teacher is saying that, you know, even though
she's paying attention or he's paying attention,
you know, when it comes to applying those skills,
they're not quite getting it. Then they'll come
to our office and, you know, there may be a learning
disability. Right. So I'm thinking of starting
there first, and then we'll work our way over
to maybe giftedness as the episode rolls along.
Now, I think it was very interesting because
I was initially trained in Ontario for about
a year, year and a half for my masters, did some
assessments here, went out to Alberta for three
years, did a lot of testing out there, and then
came back to Ontario and had to relearn some
things actually in terms of the diagnostic criteria
for a learning disability. There may be some
provincial differences here between where you
are Dave and where I am and also the DSM. Right.
We talked about the DSM five before. So within
the DSM five, that's the diagnostic manual that
psychiatry and psychology uses for mental health
and other neurodevelopmental disorders. There's
something called a learning disorder in there,
which is not a very strict criteria to have a
learning disorder. I won't go too much into that,
but really. you know, any kind of academic weakness
can determine whether or not you have a learning
disorder according to the DSM -5. But here in
Ontario, we do have a more strict criteria set
out by the Ontario Psychological Association,
set out by the Learning Disabilities Association
of Ontario. And most school boards will follow
those criteria. Otherwise, everybody may have
a learning disorder, according to the DSM -5.
So I'm being a little facetious there. Anyone
who's struggling in school in either math or
reading or writing could qualify for, like, as
long as it's a significant struggle, they would
qualify for that disorder, which is not like
you're saying, quote unquote, the, I don't know
if it's quote unquote, but the, the definition
that we learned right? When we were being trained
in terms of what a learning disability actually
is, rather than a disorder. Yes. So here, it's
not just about IQ testing. That's one component
of it. And we do want to see if there are any
what we call processing difficulties. So in the
last episode, we talked about verbal comprehension,
visual spatial fluid reasoning, and so on. Each
of those are seen as a process, sort of how your
brain works. Is there a processing deficit? Now,
there may be other processing deficits that can
be further tested, whether it's visual motor
integration or fine motor challenges. Also phonological
processing, which is the way we may sound out
letter sound combinations, how we hear letter
sound combinations. You know, there may be that
as well. And here in Ontario too, I don't think
I did this out in Alberta, memory is also part
of it too. So we have to do memory testing when
it comes to one's verbal recall, visual recall,
delayed visual and verbal recall, and see if
any of those processes are delayed as well. Right?
So if there's any kind of process delay or weakness
in combination with academic difficulty, so this
could be math, reading, writing, right? Then
we can say that somebody has a learning disability.
Now, Dave, you were smiling the whole time I
was talking about memory. Because I'm pretty
sure we didn't do it out in Alberta. No, no.
And this is like a jurisdictional thing, I think.
So I did my masters in Ontario and then I came
back to Alberta and also did like an assessment
course and assessments here. So I'm laughing
because in Ontario, I did a lot of memory testing,
right? Like it was built in kind of to the psycho
-ed assessment when deemed needed. And in other
places, I think, in Alberta at least, a lot of
the memory tests are reserved for neuropsych
assessments and only neuropsychologists will
be doing those kinds of testing. So even though
a counseling or a clinical psychologist could
administer them and be able to purchase the tests
and interpret them, there is a bit of, you know,
like if memory is a concern, it should be a neuropsych
assessment, not just a Ed psych assessment so
interesting. Yeah. So, so a little bit of an
aside. Dr. Martin Logan, when I was supervised
by him, he was a guest on one of our episodes
on brain injury. And in Ontario, you can at least
still this way. This is probably going to go
away soon, but you register as different disciplines
in psychology, right? So school psychology, clinical
psychology, neuropsychology. And I remember we
used to go into rural areas to service people
who needed the service out in rural Ontario.
And so we'd have these long car rides and counted
as supervision. And he started talking about,
is there really a difference between neuropsych
and school psychology? You're looking into memory,
you're looking into IQ, you're looking into all
these processes. The only thing that you're not
commenting on in your reports as school psychologists
is the brain functioning. But it's not to say
you don't know how it functions. You can still
comment on what the person needs in order to
find optimal functioning. So it was a very interesting
conversation. That was his take on it. And he's
a neuropsychologist. So it's not like he's saying,
you know, the school psychologists can't do this
or clinical psychologists shouldn't do that.
He was totally advocating that, hey, you know,
your role, my role, they're actually pretty similar.
They are they are my spidey senses going up that
we're treading into some waters that maybe we
should back away from getting back to the role
of IQ testing. Um, yeah, like even if we, I think
for me, when I think about, uh, learning disabilities,
it's, it's a difficulty with some kind of a processing,
like you said, a processing deficit or processing
difficulty that affects a student's ability to
show what they know or to learn information,
right? They technically have the ability to do
it or the aptitude to be able to do it, but there's
some kind of process that we don't necessarily
have like the brain imaging to really pinpoint
it yet. So one example is like dyslexia. where
someone reversing letters and difficulty with
reading and so if someone else reads the information
to them they can take it in they can think about
it they can answer questions right or dysgraphia
where it's difficulty writing so if that is the
issue you know if you tell a student they have
to write out their answers and they have dysgraphia
you're not going to get an accurate estimate
of what they actually know. because of the way
you're testing the knowledge, right? So the way
that I was trained and the way that I always
think about learning disabilities is that one
of the requirements is to have an average IQ,
average or above IQ initially and then to have
below average to extremely below average performance
on academic tasks like reading writing or math.
So again, I think this is where, like, the jurisdiction
differences lie too, right? So in terms of how
we even represent intelligence here, so, well,
for simplicity's sake, we'll take what you mentioned
in the WISC, right, in the last episode, the
Wechsler intelligence scales. Any of those domains?
Well, not any. I'll say, like, the main ones.
Let's say verbal comprehension, visual spatial
reasoning, and fluid reasoning. Even if... those
overall scores don't come out in average, that's
okay, right? Let's say fluid reasoning is average
to above average, and then you've got verbal
comprehension that's low average or below average
or significant below average. We can still use
fluid reasoning as the best estimate or the best
representation of intelligence, right? But we
would say that this individual has a processing
deficit in verbal comprehension. Yes. So that
is where using the overall score or using certain
scores, depending what is most representative
of this child's estimated intelligence, right?
And that's where it becomes really important
because if you use a different score and you
say, no, this child does not have, it does not
fall within the average range intelligence on
the IQ score. They no longer qualify for this
diagnosis of a learning disability, right? And
they might. Well, I'll just say this quick that
they might qualify for a diagnosis of a mild
intellectual disability. Right. And then that
is a different diagnosis that's going to affect,
you know, different kinds of accommodations or
supports. Yes. So I think this is, again, training
is so important. Good training. Years of experience.
and being supervised on these assessments, it
makes a very, very big difference because the
interpretation of these scores can, you know,
it forms your diagnosis or no diagnosis, which
can mean whether the student receives accommodations
and help at school or not. Right. So what type
of accommodation? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So,
you know, anyone listening who's going through
training programs, you know, please receive a
really good education in this area. And if you
have any doubts of your assessment abilities,
I would say maybe not do them. Or get some supervision,
get some supervision, really good supervision.
Again, these are high stakes, right? And these
reports that get written, that get put into the
file of the child at school and that follow them
from school to school, that is why there needs
to be a lot of care and caution, like you're
saying, in terms of doing this work. Yeah. You
know, we get so many families, and I always remind
myself, why are families coming? Because they
want the help, right? They want to see their
child thrive. and they're really hoping by getting
some answers through these assessments and reports
will get their family and their child to the
next level, right? And that might mean receiving
appropriate supports from the school. But to
your point in the last episode about having glasses
and no glasses, if you go to an optometrist who
fails to see that the child is having vision
problems and they don't prescribe prescriptive
lenses, that child's going to keep struggling
in school because they can't see the board at
the front. That's the piece around learning disabilities,
right? I would add one more thing around, at
least again in Ontario, you know, even if a student
is getting maybe a lower end of the average test
scores for academics, if we notice as a clinician
that the student is taking An abundance of time,
you know, really long time to get through academic
tasks, whether it's math problem solving or writing.
We can also make that clinical judgment that,
hey, like this is taking way longer than most
students should be taking. And we can still diagnose
a learning disability in that sense. Not just
with the slow speed, there has to be other processing
deficits too. But if let's say they're scoring
sort of average -ish, in most academic tasks,
but it's like taking them three times as long
as everyone else. We can make that call. And
I think even just a general kind of understanding,
like a learning disability is is. is understood
that you know a student might be performing poorly
and be labeled as you know we've been talking
about smart but you could be labeled as dumb
or not intelligent right and a learning disability
can really help clarify that like the student
has intelligence to be able to do to learn and
to think through these problems but the way we
are teaching or asking them to demonstrate their
learning creates such a difficulty that they're
performing way lower than what they're actually
capable of. Exactly. Now, I do want to state
that in terms of a learning disability, I think
the word disability scares people. It certainly
scares parents and caregivers who I've worked
with, not all of them, but some of them, when
they hear the word disability. A learning disability
does not mean that the individual cannot learn,
right? It just means that there are strengths.
and there are weaknesses and a difference in
the way they learn, right? And so a very simple
example might be that, you know, somebody learns
better through visual means, right? So, you know,
if you give them diagrams and tables, pictures
for them to follow lists, they will learn better
than if somebody just lectured at the front of
the classroom and didn't write anything down.
Right. So, you know, when a prof or a teacher
just lectures in the front, yada, yada, yada,
they may not comprehend everything that that
person is saying because they're not that auditory
or verbal learner. Yeah. Or back to dyslexia.
If they can listen to the audio book rather than
read the hard copy book and they can take in
that information, then, you know, you're making
an accommodation that allows them to then and
express their understanding, right? So. Yeah,
exactly. So with a learning disability, you know,
people can still do great things, thrive, right?
Through receiving certain accommodations or what
I see sometimes in older high school students
and post -secondary students and even adults
in the workplace, they eventually and naturally
find ways to accommodate themselves too. I go
back to that idea of gravitating towards your
own interests, your own strengths, and they do
very well. Again, it does not mean you cannot
learn. Yeah. And let's expand that too to like
mild intellectual disability or severe intellectual
disability. So scoring on the really low end
of the IQ score there. I mean, it's a, it's a
developmental disability. right so depending
on what province or what part of the country
you're in or other jurisdictions they're going
to have different labels for it but like in Alberta
you would qualify for like PDD so there would
be some supports that would be available because
you know be you know full -time employment or
some of these other things are going to be very
difficult. Even attending school might be very
difficult, right? So there are supports in place
that if you score a certain like below 70 was
kind of the range on, you know, around here for
a while. Now they don't just rely on IQ scores,
right? We're not just basing this entire thing
on IQ scores. But yeah, I think it doesn't mean
that your life won't have meaning or that you
won't, but it can kind of help guide what supports
you need, what areas where you might be more
successful and gives you a range or a direction
for parents and for caregivers. So one piece
around intellectual disabilities does go through
the DSM, right? The diagnostic manual. And at
least in my practice, we will look into what
we call adaptive functioning, right? So what
are the person's skills, strengths and weaknesses
when it comes to their independent living skills
or activities of daily living, right? So if you
brought them to a store, for example, could they
go and follow a grocery list, pay at the counter,
get change? All of those different things right
now, we're looking to self care. We're looking
into independence. We're looking into functional
communication, right? If they needed help out
in public, could they ask someone for help? So
we're looking to all these other areas now. And
that's what also determines the intellectual
disability piece is that if the person is really
struggling and they're following again below
the normative population, again, these tests
are standardized. And if they are falling, below
that average range, you know, first of all, what
range are they falling into and the severity
of their ability to live on their own or independently?
For sure. And I think, yeah, that actually brings
up a point from our first episode on this is
that again, the the range, the the way that We
interpret these results, right? So I'll give
you an example. Like, let's say the cutoff is
70 IQ. That might not mean a lot to different
people, but it's, it's, it's a score that you
can, you could get, you could get below 70 or
above 70. Say someone scores 71, right? And the
bureaucracy or the people that are reviewing
these scores and these assessments, and they
say, no, you don't qualify for this support because
you scored too high on the IQ score. And I've
actually seen this where the psychologist had
to write an additional letter explaining where
the range is still below 70 and above 70. Looking
at this individuals areas of functioning like
you're saying so say they have another diagnosis
like autism or Something else that could be you
know, you can have more than one Challenge and
all of a sudden this person absolutely should
qualify for these financial Subsidies right because
they they cannot live on their own like you're
saying that independent living is just not possible
But if someone strictly is just going off of,
okay, well, they scored 71 or 72, so they don't
qualify. Like that is, yeah, that's the pet peeve
of mine. Yeah. These diagnostics has so many
implications to, you know, financial implications,
you know, like you said, government supports,
right? So if we do diagnose someone with an intellectual
disability, They may be given grants here in
Ontario, right? Financial grants to help them.
They can be accepted into certain programs because,
you know, sometimes individuals will have difficulty
thriving in the workplace if they do have an
intellectual disability. So they may join day
programs. Right? And so there there are, again,
significant implications to these types of assessments.
And I really don't want to underscore that because
families need the help, individuals need the
help. Again, I'm speaking for those in Canada,
or me specifically here in Ontario, you know,
other countries may have other services, which
is great. Others may not have any services, you
know, but that's what happens here. For sure.
And I think one other thing to Re -highlight
from the first episode is that if your child
is tested at say You know seven years old and
they fall within this category. They're likely
gonna stay there They're not this isn't something
that they're gonna grow out of right or or maybe
they need a tutor and then it'll get better It's
it's like this is considered a neurodevelopmental
condition that stays with someone for their entire
life And this is where I think our counseling
and therapy skills come into play Caregivers
hearing news like this, it's never easy. You
know, sometimes it can turn their world upside
down. And as we've talked about in grief and
lost that episode before, there can be grieving,
right? Many people will have certain expectations
of their children, but when They're having such
significant challenges and difficulties and you
know, you have to change sort of your expectations.
It's very, very challenging. So yeah, a lot of
compassion, a lot of understanding and allowing
people to kind of digest the information and
then answer questions. Unfortunately, a lot of
these assessments, there's a quick debrief that
happens afterwards. That's where I end up seeing
a lot of parents that are left with questions
or left with like maybe misunderstandings of
what the report or the assessment actually kind
of means for their child. So, yeah, the debrief
is so important. The debrief to me is not just
a debrief to say, OK, these are the results and
you know, you go on your merry way. It's really
I believe in hand holding the parents, especially
when I know that it's going to be a tough, a
tough news of a diagnosis, and just knowing the
families who I work with as well. Now, I just
want to place a caveat out there. Here in Ontario,
it's very confusing. You can also be identified
through the Ministry of Education with a mild
intellectual disability. If you see that in a
report, it is not a diagnosis. I'm not even going
to get into that because it's just going to confuse
people even more. But in terms of this discussion,
we'll just leave it as the DSM -5 diagnosis of
an intellectual disability, and then you can
have mild, moderate, or severe range. Okay? So
I'll leave it at that. It's very confusing out
here. I know. And we could do more and more episodes
on each specific thing. So hopefully, this just
kind of gives you some direction. And I actually
want to shift gears completely and look at the
other end of the, you know, the bell curve to
the giftedness range, right? So scoring above
130 typically is correct me if I'm wrong. 98th
percentile or higher. Yeah. So you're talking
about the top two percentile of the population.
Yeah. Of the, you know, the normed population.
So if you score there, all of the norming, all
of the pre -testing that was done less than or
2 % or less scored within that range. And so
if you score there, then you're considered or
you can be, again, I don't think it's a, is it
a diagnosis? It's an identification of giftedness.
Yeah. It's not a diagnosis. It's an identification,
but I think I don't know what your take on it
is, Dave. I don't know if listeners already sort
of see my bias with it, is that it's a societal
construct of what giftedness is. Are you exposed
to certain opportunities? How much does your
family value that idea of the label of giftedness?
I know that. There are ways that, you know, some,
some parents will quote unquote train their kids
and before doing the tests, you know, there are,
you know, it's nuts out here. I don't know if
you've heard of anything in Edmonton or in Alberta,
but here in the greater Toronto area, there are
people who will say that they train students
to do very well or ACE the gifted testing. Like
it's, it's something else. It is, it is. And
I think we kind of touched on it in the first
episode, but you know, when we're looking at
intelligence or IQ testing, that is just one
part of someone's, you know, profile and so if
because they score high on IQ tests they're labeled
as gifted like they could be gifted in many other
areas like children can have different gifts
in different areas so I have a hard time or calling
someone smart like are they book smart are they
good at memorization are they like there's different
so I think these broad terms but they do have
a societal weight to them. And I think, you know,
I was saying off air too, that testing a four
year old, right? Uh, for an IQ test. And then
because it's the requirement to get into the
gifted kindergarten program, right? Like this
is a real thing. Like, yeah, you know, and, and,
and doing that test, it's like, we know the younger
the kid is, the more variability there are, right?
The, the the measurement error is greater. So
we put a lot of weight or some people or some
schools will put a lot of weight on that test
and then restrict which kids can join that program.
And I do have a hard time with that. Yep. Same
here. And I think, look, I think there are some
kids who are naturally gifted. And, you know,
I've seen it where parents just they don't even
know that we're going to do this kind of testing
at the school board. It's like, you know, they're
oblivious to it. And they're like, it's obvious
that they never trained for it. There is no,
you know, inkling that, you know, their child
was even gifted. And they show up as they are,
which is, you know what? Great. You know, they
have this different program for for students
like that. And I will say that it's a different
kind of teaching. and there's a lot of inquiry
work, maybe more independent projects, maybe
they go, you know, two steps a little bit more,
because yes, these students may learn a little
bit quicker, grasp concepts quicker. And so teachers
are able to say, okay, let's go, let's take extra
two steps to learn a little bit more about this
particular concept. So yeah, there is a different
way of teaching. But I think what grinds my gears
is when we get referrals and you can tell that
the parents are wanting something that may not
be the case, right? So how do I get my child
to become gifted? You know, even after I tell
them the results and I tell them it's just a
snapshot, you know, your child is, you know,
these scores are amazing. They're really good.
They're not in the gifted range, but it's really
good. It's like, okay, well, you said I can't
be tested or my child can't be tested for another
two years. How do I prepare for that two years
from now? It's like, ah, really? No, I hear you.
I hear you. If the school identifies a child,
right? And then that referral goes in, that's
a lot different than a parent wanting their child
to be something that they may or may not be.
And again, when you're looking at a three or
four year old and the parent is like, I think
my kid is gifted. It's like, Yeah, and when I'm
doing that assessment, a part of me is like,
oh, I'm gonna, like you said, the debrief, right?
And, and possibly giving a diagnosis. This isn't
giving a diagnosis. This is telling a parent
at times that their child is, like you said,
could be really bright, could have a lot of strengths,
but they don't fall in the gifted range and they
don't get that label. We won't even do a gifted
testing until a child is in grade three and eight
years old minimum. Because here in the school
boards, at least in the public school boards,
they won't even take an assessment that's done
earlier than that. You know, the brain needs
time to develop. You know, the child needs time
in the classroom to develop and to see where
their skills are. And like you said, the greater
the measurement error when they're younger. Right.
So school boards here won't even take a look
at them if they're done any younger, any earlier
than grade three and eight years old. But, you
know, again, there's, there's so much, I sometimes
find there's so much riding, more so with the
parents than the kids. And unfortunately, you
know, I've seen so many cases of this where the
children become the victims of their parents'
expectations. Right. And so, you know, a child
may come into the office, And they'll tell me,
you know, I'm nervous, you know, I really want
to be in this program. But who planted that seed?
Right. And and, you know, when when a child feels
that kind of pressure, a lot of the time, I just
want to say to parents, you know, just let a
child be a child. And, you know, the way I see
it, too, is that if your child isn't gifted.
or doesn't reach that level in terms of their
scores, they're still going to do great in school,
right? From what I can see in the scores, they're
still going to do great. They'll still be able
to learn a lot. Obviously as parents, many of
them will give their children opportunities outside
of school to also learn. So, you know, it's not
a be all and end all. No. And again, let's put
this in context. Like it is one part of this
you know one factor right we talked about motivation
and effort and grit and you know socioeconomic
status right when we're looking at some of these
gifted and talented programs how many of these
students actually come from upper socioeconomic
status right like there are a lot of factors
that go into and i think sometimes just There
is, there's pressure on parents and there is,
you know, parent shaming. And even when we look
at nature versus nurture, some of the, some of
the folks that are really promoting this like
environmental factor that, that the environment
affects intelligence and that there is very little
genetic component to it. That's risky too, because
all of a sudden you're saying, well, parenting
is what affects intelligence. And so if you have
a bright student, that's good parenting. And
if you have a student who's struggling, that's
probably because there was bad parenting. And
we just, oh, we don't want to go down that path,
right? It's funny. I'll self -disclose here a
little bit. So. I'm not gifted, but my brother
-in -law and my sister are. They were deemed
gifted, right? And actually it was a, I want
to say it was a month ago, maybe or two months
ago, because my daughter was talking about, you
know, a couple of friends who went to the gifted
program. And, you know, this could have been
my, my sister saying this just to my daughter,
just to, to soothe her a little bit. But, you
know, my sister's like, and my brother -in -law,
but they're like, it's overrated. Like it's overrated.
It's like we all come out on the same playing
level of playing field at the end of the day,
right? You go off to university, there's no gifted
university, right? I have a friend who's also,
I was in the gifted program. So at my high school,
there was the gifted stream. There was a non
gifted stream, but we all became friends. And
one of my friends always says, I'm pretty sure
I don't know how I got in the gifted program,
but I'm sure I was not gifted. It made no difference
in my life at the end of the day. And look, I
think having more life experience now, again,
I have friends who are gifted and those who are
not gifted, and everybody goes through the same
challenges at the end of the day. We go through
the same celebrations, the same challenges. I
have friends who have mental health challenges.
They did amazingly well in school. gifted programs,
university, really crazy hard programs, but they
struggle with social challenges, mental health
challenges. So at the end of the day, as much
as some parents and caregivers may ride on this
whole gifted label, please don't forget that
there's way more to life than this identification.
there's a lot more and so again hopefully this
this episode it puts things in perspective a
little bit because there's a lot of misunderstandings
right and some people might think that if my
kid gets into the gifted program their life is
going to be on a certain trajectory right and
we know we know that is not the case right and
and even when i said this at the beginning of
the episode about that uh mensa group right It's
a, you know, it can feel good to be in this like
elite group of people that have a certain level
of intelligence. But in terms of like life satisfaction,
meaning, success, it's not really that correlated
to high intelligence. No, not at all. The research
has shown that it's so important to take care
of yourself and all facets and work hard, right?
develop grit, develop a strong work ethic, because
even when I hire at my clinic, to be very honest,
like, you can be the brightest and you can show
me your GPA and all this other stuff. But if
you can't demonstrate a strong work ethic, then
I would say professionalism and just good people
skills. Back to our episode with Sean Barford
about running a private practice. If you can't
show a client a positive experience, I probably
won't hire you at the clinic. You can be the
smartest person in the world. Yeah, so again,
just in a summary, like IQ scores that are correlated,
they predict school... achievement, academic
performance, that is the biggest predictor. But
even that is still not, it's not 100%. But that
is what you would expect that if someone with
a high IQ will do better or find school a bit
easier than someone with a lower IQ. That's it.
In terms of what it doesn't predict, it doesn't
predict happiness, it doesn't predict actually
how creative, how successful someone might be
in those professions that require creativity
and problem solving. Dave, I'm so glad you brought
that up. That didn't even cross my mind for today,
but yes, creativity to me is huge. Novel problem
solving and creativity. Well, and then social
skills, right? Like emotional awareness, emotional
intelligence, like all of those pieces that is
not connected to IQ at all. And so, yeah, hopefully
people get a better understanding of what IQ
scores are, what they kind of mean generally,
what they're used for and what they shouldn't
be used for or they shouldn't mean. Yeah, no,
I hope we did that part. And at the end of the
day, let kids be kids, right? Give them the opportunities.
You know some will thrive in certain areas others
will thrive in other areas and I would say for
the most part, let's accept our kids for who
they are and provide them with that positive
upbringing so that their mental health is at
its, uh, at its peak. It's not just kids though.
I was just thinking like before we end, I have
to say this because people come into my office
and they're like, yeah, I got an IQ of 135 or
130. And again, that puts you in the top two
percentile, right? Uh, if you've been listening
to the full episode and that technically would
put you into the gifted range, but how, where,
where did you get your IQ tested or how do you
know your IQ score? And it's like, well, it was
on a, uh, a thing on the internet. I just, you
know, did the test on the internet. Like that
is not a test that gives you an accurate IQ score.
So unfortunately for those that are listening
that might have thought, okay, it might give
you a ballpark ish kind of score, but you do
not get your IQ tested on the internet. Well,
unless you're doing a virtual assessment. It's
so interesting. I've had clients again, we've
been practicing for a long time. I've had, I've
had a few clients who have told me that they
wish they never knew they were gifted or they
wish they never attended a gifted program. I
think there's like, again, expectations, adult
expectations and implications to that, which
to me, I was like, again, because I was never
in that kind of program, but it's, it's a very
interesting statement that they would say something
like that. Well, this was fun. Yeah, that was
fun. And, you know, this was this was easy in
a sense to record this today, the two episodes,
we do so much of this type of assessment. And,
yeah, working in the school board for a number
of years and now private practice, it's exposed
me to so much along these lines. So thanks for
bringing up. It was your suggestion to talk about
this today. Well, thanks for bringing all your
experience and wisdom. So this, yeah, this was
fun. And again, I think the way, when I think
about these podcasts, it's like, what are things
that I'm talking about in my office that it would
be nice to share with the general public? And
hopefully those that are looking for information
around this can find this and at least get some
direction. They might need to talk with someone
more specifically, but this kind of At least
we kind of do a lot of myth busting, right? And
correcting some misinformation that keeps showing
up in our office, right? And that affect how
people make decisions for themselves or for their
children or for their family. And it's just,
yeah, I think this is a free resource that hopefully
can help people. Alright, if you've enjoyed this
episode and you're enjoying the podcast, please
subscribe, share, follow, give us a thumbs up,
send us questions and comments. It's been a really
fun ride and it still is. We've been doing this
for over a year and the data is showing us that
it's blowing up a little bit here, so that's
a lot of fun to see as well. So share with those
who you think will enjoy it, who you think might
find it useful, and we'll keep doing this. And
in the meantime, until we record again, take
good care. Yeah. And hopefully by the time this
gets released, Canada has a win in the World
Cup. Wishful thinking. We'll see. All right.
Take care, Andrew. Take care, everyone. Take
good care.