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or go to hamstation .com. Hey, good evening,
everyone. This is ham talk live episode number
20 canine to search and rescue with AJ. We're
Goosa KC 9 EVU recorded live on Thursday, June
30th, 2016. I'm your host, Neil rap WB nine VP
gene. Thanks for tuning into this episode of
ham talk live. Now, if you're tuning in thinking
that Valerie Holtzfeld in B9L is going to be
here. Well, she was supposed to be here, but
Unfortunately she came down with a migraine late
this afternoon and this was not up to being up
let alone on the show. So we're going to reschedule
Valerie. She was going to talk about some of
her log analysis talk over at Contest University
and how to work some of those de -expeditions.
So we'll get her rescheduled just as soon as
we can. Hope and pray that she is, uh, feeling
better soon. Um, so fortunately over field day,
um, we finally got arrangements made for a backup.
And so I didn't think I was going to be calling
AJ up, uh, to, uh, step in quite this quickly,
but, uh, tonight, AJ Ragusa, KC9EVU. I was here
to talk about a very special group that's trained
in search and rescue using dogs and how they
use ham radio to communicate. So we'll take your
calls live in just a few minutes and talk to
him. Last week on the show Sean Kutsko, KX9X
from ARRL was here to talk about field day and
if you missed that you can listen anytime at
hamtalklive .com or on iTunes Stitcher, Google
Play, TuneIn, SoundCloud, or YouTube. So get
your m -com questions, and your search and rescue
questions, and your dog questions ready to go.
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Our Twitter handle is at hamtalklive. So next,
AJ Ragusa, KC9EVU, right after this word from
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to listen. The show every Thursday night at 9
p .m. Eastern Time. Right here on HamTalkLive
.com. Also check out our Facebook page and Twitter
feed. Just search HamTalk Live. AJ Ragusa, KC9EVU,
lives right here in Bloomington, Indiana where
he works in computing for Indiana University.
After graduating from there, AJ is the Monroe
County, Indiana RACES officer and the assistant
ARIES emergency coordinator. He uses his computing
abilities in ham radio using digital modes including
IRLP, ECHOLINK, and APRS. AJ is a member of ARGUS,
which is a canine search and rescue team here
in Monroe County. and he has trained his dog
Sasha to search for lost people. Argus uses ham
radio to communicate during search and rescue
events and training exercises. So if you haven't
heard of this mode of MCOM, tonight is your chance
to learn a little bit about it. So AJ, thank
you so much for stepping in and being on HamTalk
Live tonight. No problem, Neil. Thanks for having
me. Well, we had talked about having you on the
show and we thought, well, that'd make a great
backup. And here we are. not even a week from
when we talked about it and finalized everything.
But tell everybody a little bit about the purpose
of having a canine search and rescue team and
tell everybody a little bit about what that team
does. So I mean really a canine search and rescue
team is just a search and rescue team. We happen
to have some additional tools which are the canines
themselves. So what's the purpose of a search
and rescue team? I mean, that's kind of obvious,
right? Our goal is to go find lost people. And
one of the things we're very clear about for
anybody who's joining or wants to use us, we
only search for people who potentially want to
be found. So we're not going to go out searching
for somebody who robbed a bank or in some criminal
situation like that. That's for the police. What
we do is, especially Argus, we are mostly a wilderness
search and rescue team. We have some other resources
too, such as disaster or even urban search and
rescue, but we mostly focus on wilderness. So
I'll touch on some of those in a little bit.
But basically the idea is that... You know, if
you get lost and you are wanting to be found,
i .e. you haven't robbed the bank and have millions
of dollars that you're trying to get away with,
then we will come and start looking for you.
And we have a variety of skills that help us
do that. And with those skills, we have different
resources. I like to call them tools in the tool
belt. So canines are one of those tools. And
one of the reasons that we use canines is that
sometimes, for example, there might be a hunter
who's lost. Well, maybe he's wearing all camo
because he was hunting. That could be very hard
to spot, especially if you're searching at night.
The dog's nose isn't going to be fooled by the
fact that they're wearing camo. And even when
they have all those scent blockers and all those
other things, they usually don't work all that
well. And so the dog's nose is very good. And
so that's why we're using these dogs, is they
are an additional tool. I mean, obviously, there's
a team involved, right? But the dog is... Basically
a a multiplier for us. It's a force multiplier
We can search a lot more area a lot quicker with
a dog than with a bunch of humans And so that's
the reason we're using them. Okay now you use
the example of maybe a hunter is lost would this
be a response to to Like an amber alert or a
silver alert or something like that? potentially
it depends on the situation and So, you know,
there have been, there are teams that get called
out for amber alerts. In Indiana, we have silver
alerts as well, which are senior citizens who
maybe have dementia or Alzheimer's or something
and have wandered off. And so it can be in those
situations. One of the things for our team, for
example, we will only be called out by an agency
with jurisdiction. In Indiana, most of the time,
that means the sheriff's department. But basically,
any police officers, sheriff's departments, volunteer
firefighters, where we are in Bloomington, we
have the National Forest Service. So Hoosier
National Forest could call us out, or Indiana
Department of Natural Resources. So those are
the agencies who would call us out. And so yes,
potentially an amber alert could be one of those
reasons for us getting called out. So it's kind
of like with RACES, that you don't just hear
about something and go out and do it. You have
to be requested by the appropriate service before
you activate. Yes. We call it self -deploying.
Most teams do not self -deploy. they will wait
to be called out by a agency with jurisdiction.
And there's a few reasons for that. You don't
know if there's criminal activity involved. So,
you know, in case of an Amber alert, there could
be an abduction. And so you don't want to start
trampling over clues that they might need at
some point in time. But, you know, also those,
they're the guys who are going to do some of
the initial research. and kind of give us our
areas to actually start searching in, which is
an important aspect of search and rescue. Now,
while we're on the topic, I know it's a little
off topic, but you also deal in EMCOM, in RACES
and ARIES and that kind of thing. So while we
brought it up, let's talk just a little bit about
why you don't want to self -deploy in any kind
of a ham radio situation. Well, I mean, first
off, you don't want to get in the way. I think
that's probably the biggest rule in MCOM is you
don't want to get in the way, but you want to
provide a service that they're looking for. They're
going to tell you what they want, and that's
what you want to provide. You don't want to start
essentially taking over, or at least that's what
it'll appear like to them. So in my opinion,
you want to just hang back and wait for them
to request your help. You want them to know you're
out there. So like with EMCOM, making sure that
as a RACES coordinator, I make sure that Jim
Cumaford, our EMA director in Monroe County,
and I have a good working relationship. Like
you said, I'm the assistant ARIES emergency coordinator
with our ARIES emergency coordinator. So we try
and work very closely together so that way. We
know what each other's capabilities are. We know
how to basically operate together. And so that's
one of the big important training things I think
here is, you know, you want to provide the services
that they are and that they want. And you don't
want to just show up because they're not ready
for you. Yeah. And a lot of these bigger disasters,
I think what happens is a lot of people will
show up and say, you know, I can do this. I can
do that. They will self deploy. rather than let
them know, they show up and they're not ready
for that yet. They haven't organized everything
and figured out, you know, where things are and,
and they're just not ready for that yet. And
you're just going to slow things down by doing
that. Yeah. I mean, if you think about it, right,
having people having volunteers, if you have
a lot of volunteers showing up, that is a lot
of additional resources that you have to deploy,
right? Because all of a sudden now you need some
way to get them food and water. Maybe you'll
need 50 portagons by the time you get all the
volunteers there. And so they need a chance to
prep for people to show up. That's why you don't
want to show up early, because that's just going
to annoy them, I think. You want them to say,
this is what we're looking for. And if you're
a resource that fits that, capability, then you
want to show up. And that's the exact idea with,
that's the exact protocol that we use, at least
in my team, which is, you know, if we get a call,
we basically go through a few checks, you know,
does this person reasonably want to be found?
And what type of resources are you looking for,
right? If you're looking for a certain type of
dog that we don't have, then, you know, we'll
let you know. We don't have that, but we have
this. Here's what we're capable of. And then
if you want us, you just tell us and here's our
ETA and here's what we can show up with. Okay,
so we've talked a little about the search and
rescue, the canines, and the ham radio. So how
does all of that tie together? How do the canine
search and rescue teams utilize ham radio to
carry out that? Roll. Well, you know, let me
start off with a quick story. So, um, when I
first joined Argus, um, I was, we call them ground
pounders. I was just a ground pounder, which
means I was one of the guys who went off in the
woods to go search for the subject, the missing
person. You're the guinea pig. Well, there were
a few times I was also the lost person. We purposely
would hide somebody. So you're purposely the
lost person to be found. So I remember we were
doing this. So we do these mocks as trainings.
And we do a big mock with Indiana University.
There's a class that we have. We usually get
somewhere between 20 and 30 students. And we
put on this really large mock. And we teach the
students all of these skills required for being
a search team person, basically a ground pounder.
And my role was, as we call them, either a safety
or an angel, basically to make sure that if the
team gets lost, they're not really lost. If something
happens, there's somebody with some experience
out in the woods to help them through whatever
the situation is and make sure that they don't
do something that they might injure themselves
with, right? So that's part of the reason we're
there. The other reason is that in Argus, basically
everybody is a ham radio operator. And if you've
ever been out to Hoosier National Forest, you
drive for about 10 minutes and all of a sudden
you no longer have cell phone service when you're
driving out there. But we drive out about 40
minutes into the forest. So there's really no
cell phone service. So we deploy a lot of ham
radio equipment. So that way we can communicate
with our teams out in the field. So on this mock
search that we were doing, I was basically the
furthest team away from the net control station.
And not only that, but we were on the other side
of a ridge. And there were a whole bunch of ridges
in between us and the station. So it turned out
there were four teams deployed, plus then there's
net control. and all four teams had ham radio
operators. Our missions were essentially we were
going in parallel paths along these four ridges.
The issue was that only one of the teams could
actually talk directly to net control, because
we don't have a repeater out there. This is in
the middle of Hoosier National Forest. There's
no power. There's nothing. And we've done the
best we can. Basically, we've got a portable
push -up pole. that gets us about 40 feet up
in the air with a really nice two meter vertical
antenna, 50 watts of power. But that doesn't
help you when you're in the middle of Hoosier
National Forest on the other side of a ridge
in the middle of, I don't remember when it was,
but there was a lot of vegetation and water in
there. So that just limited our signal. What
ended up happening was the team next to me could
hear me. The team next to them could hear them.
and the team next to them could hear them, and
then that team could hear net control. So one
of the coolest things I've ever experienced,
all four of the crews are hiking through the
woods. We're not on trails. We are back country,
like hiking along a ridge searching for stuff.
And we're able to pretty much flawlessly pass
traffic. Without you know, we're not stopping
to write it down. We're not doing anything But
it's going four hops to net control and then
four hops back. I I was that was the most impressive
thing I think I'd ever experienced because I'd
done a bunch of the MCOM training and but to
actually see it in use it in real time to be
able to know exactly what's happening because
you can hear you could hear you know the calling
for the other crew and then the other it was
just To me, it was one of the coolest experiences
to go through that and to be with other guys
who could basically, while hiking, back country
in the woods, day two of sleeping outside at
night, and being able to still do this with their
radios, it was an impressive event. And that's
exactly the point of using our radios. We're
out in the back country where there isn't a lot
of cell phone service. Um, we had a search just
this week actually, and I showed up, looked at
my cell phone and sure enough, I didn't have
anything. So what did we use? We used ham radio.
Very good. And, um, you know, no repeater coverage
a lot of times too. So that just emphasizes the
point of practicing relays, practicing being
on Simplex and relaying information down the
path just exactly as you explained to get it
back to where it needs to go. So that is pretty
impressive. So you've talked about some of this
training. Let's mention some of the training
for the dogs actually because you've actually
gotten involved in that now. You've got a dog,
Sasha, and Sasha went through some of that training.
So talk about the training for the humans as
well as the dogs. Well, let's start with the
humans, because that's stuff that people be relatively
familiar with. And let me also prefix this with
every search team does it differently. So what
Argus does doesn't mean that this is the same
for what your local search team is going to do.
Now there are some national standards, and that
is what Argus tries to go by. So let me talk
about that first. So there's this organization
called NASAR, which is kind of like the ARRL
of search and rescue for the United States. NASAR
stands for National Association for Search and
Rescue. And they have a credentialing standard,
which funny, it has basically three levels to
it. It's called the StarTech. And so there's
StarTech 3, 2, and 1. So if you're a StarTech
3, you basically have some basic search awareness.
StarTech 2 is essentially field -ready. And StarTech
1 is advanced. So it's kind of like an extra
class license. Now, you know, those may or may
not be required by your state or by your team
or whatever it is, but they do exist. So that's
one of the things that Argus works towards. So
I have a SARTech II certification for myself.
And with that is some things like I know how
to use a grid reader and a topographical map.
So I can basically show you where I am and Without
a GPS, I can give you coordinates within about
a 10 -meter area. So basically, there are these
squares set up in 1 -kilometer dimensions. And
then inside of there, they have 10 -meter lines.
And so you can use that to basically give somebody
a position within about 10 meters. Um, so it's
kind of like the old grid square thing. It is
the grid square thing. Yeah. So they, well, if
you're talking to ham radio grid square, yeah,
kind of like that. Um, so with more precision,
with more precision. Yeah. So the idea is that
without a GPS or anything like that, I can give
you a coordinate and you can go and find the
same item that I found because it's that close.
Um, Obviously, we have some GPS training. I use
a GPS all the time because, well, it makes life
easier. But the idea is we don't have to rely
on it. We also have some basic search skills.
So with that, there's a test. I want to say it's
120 question tests. And so you have to complete
this 120 question test. There's actually a course
called FunSAR, which is what we do this big mock
for, which prepares you to take your SAR Tech
II. So if you pass a FunSAR course, you should
be relatively well prepared to take the SAR Tech
II exam. And so then there's some rope skills,
like being able to tie an improvised harness,
being able to tie an array of different types
of knots. There's navigation. There's... And
then there's these search skills. So basically,
they hide playing cards out in the woods, and
you have to go and find them. But you have to
walk into a certain area to find them, and you
have to find, I think it's... like seven out
of ten cards. And I know it sounds really easy,
but it's really not. It's actually kind of difficult.
So that's what's involved for the humans. Also
along with that, you know, there's first aid,
CPR, some of the basic first responder types
of skills that you need. Okay, and so then tell
us about Sasha. Yeah, so there's an array of
different types of dogs. And I'll say, you know,
any dog is capable of being trained to do this.
Now, it takes the right type of dog with the
right type of drive, and I'll talk about drive
in a second, to actually, to be good at it. So,
let me start with the types of dogs. Sasha, my
dog, is what we call an area or wilderness area
dog. She is not set specific. Her job is to find
any human in the area. So basically, if you're
lost and we have no idea where you are, we have
no real direction of travel, we call it, or a
place last seen or anything like that, but we
have a relatively good idea that you are in some
area, that is when we will use a dog like Sasha.
And her job is to go and basically search this
whole big area and tell me, the handler, that
she's found them. So that's her job. So that's
what we call an area dog. Then we have tracking
trailing dogs. These are the types of dogs that
most people probably think of. These are dogs
that are trained to basically follow a scent
trail. So if you have, let's say, Let's say that
you were out and you got lost and you accidentally
left a glove behind. We would use that glove
as the scent article, and the dog is going to
follow that individual scent trail to the subject.
And it's usually fairly close to the actual path
traversed. I mean, depending on wind and other
conditions like that. It can go several, you
know, even hundred feet off, but generally we
want them following as close as possible to the
trail. Then we have another type of dog, which
is human remains detection. This is obviously
looking for somebody who's been deceased. And
so, you know, maybe day two or three of a search
is when you start, we'll start using this type
of dog. And obviously their goal is to find,
you know, a deceased person. And then there's
also a disaster dog. And these disaster dogs
are what you think of for, essentially, FEMA.
They... are collapsed structures. These are the
types of dogs that were used during 9 -11. So
they're basically trained to be able to safely
navigate rubble piles and locate buried subjects
who are still alive in the rubble piles. So those
are the four types of dogs. And as you can imagine,
the training for those types of dogs can vary
quite a bit. There's a few key aspects though
that you that we kind of are looking at though.
First is drive and drive is if you've ever seen
a lab who just will not stop bringing you the
ball. That's what we're looking for. We're looking
for a dog who will do anything to play with the
ball with you. You can throw the ball into a
big field and the dog will spend 30 minutes until
it actually finds that ball and come back and
say, throw it again. So we're looking for what
we call drive. So in my case, Sasha's drive is
very much food based. If you want a backflip,
you just hold food up long enough and eventually
she's going to do a backflip for you. And so
we used food for Sasha. When she finds a subject
at practice, she gets a treat. And usually I
make them really, really good treats. Treats
that we only get at practice because otherwise,
if she gets it every day, then it's not quite
the same. And it's the same way for the other
dogs. So a lot of dogs that people use today
are either German Shepherds, Malinois, Labs,
and these dogs, are very much into what we call
tugging. They want a tug. They've got these tug
toys and basically you hold this tug toy and
even these little tiny dogs can pull me around
and it's very cool and it can be very intense.
So basically we're using this drive though to
get them to do what we want. So let's take the
area dog like Sasha really quick. We start off
with very simple games, right? We teach come.
So that way, every time I say come, Sasha comes
right to me and sits right in front of me. That's
what we teach. And then we start turning it into
a little game of, let's say, come back and forth,
where she'll come to me, she'll come to somebody
else, she comes back to me, she gets a treat.
So that's kind of the process. And then... Eventually
we make we start taking out the commands and
we just say so then it starts off with just Go
find and then there's person just standing out
in the field. She goes to that person comes back
to me Does her what we call alert and then she
gets her reward And so we kind of build this
process until it becomes, you know 30 minutes
the person's been hidden for 30 minutes out in
a 20 acre field And now Sasha has to go find
them, and it takes 30 minutes for her to actually
find the person. So that's how we kind of grow
it. And then there's this last part which I kind
of mentioned, which is the alert. And this is
probably the most critical part to the dog training.
Dogs will naturally be able to find anything
in the woods, right? If they know that they're
going to get their reward, they will very easily
find you know, a human or a deer or a duck. The
training is basically it's hunt. We want them
to hunt for the person. That just comes basically
naturally to the dogs. But the part that doesn't
is what we call the alert. And this is the most
probably critical part in their training, which
is to get the dog to do some behavior that indicates
that they have found the person. And there's
a whole lot of different alerts involved. So,
for example, with area dogs, there are two big
ones that I know about. The refine, which is
what Sasha does. So, when she finds the subject,
she runs back to me, barks at me, and then when
I say, show me, she runs back to the subject
and barks at them. Another type is called a bark
and hold, and this is exactly like it sounds.
Basically, when the dog finds a subject, they
sit there and bark at them. And even if the human
keeps moving, the dog just keeps following him,
barking at them, and the bark basically brings
the rest of the team in. Now, for other types
of dogs, let's say HRD or a tracking trailing
dog, the alert could be something else, such
as sitting down, laying down. It could be a bark.
Could even be a touch. So any number of things
can be the alert for any of these dogs. But it's
really critical to have that alert be a very
consistent and well done thing. I think that
a lot of time needs to be spent in training that
alert and getting that alert to be just so natural
that the dog doesn't even think about it. That's
really great. I'm really impressed with all that
you've been able to do with that. Right now,
it's time for us to pay some of the bills, but
we're going to come back and talk a little more
with AJ and take your calls right after this
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websites. So you've heard a little bit about
the search and rescue and the MCOM stuff and
the canines. So it's now time for your call.
So if you have a question that you want to ask
AJ about any of this stuff we've been talking
about tonight, give us an audio call on Skype.
It's HamTalkLive is the username. Or you can
call us by telephone. It's 812 -NET -HAM -1.
812 -NET -HAM -1. 812 -638 -4261. And ask a question
about some of the training that Argus is involved
in and some of these search and rescue teams.
And before I forget, AJ, can you give us the
web addresses of some places that if people want
to get some more information about some of these
national organizations as well as local ones,
can you give us those web addresses real quick?
Yeah, so Nasar is the big one, so that is National
Association for Search and Rescue, and they are
NASAR .org. That's NASAR .org, N -A -S -A -R
.org. And really that is probably the best place
to go and find local search teams. Now, granted,
you can probably Google and find, you know, a
search team in your area. So you can go check
out our website there, Sasha's pictures up there
along with mine. And you can also find Argus
on Facebook, so go ahead and like us on Facebook
if you want. And I try and post regular pictures
and updates on the team and you can see when
the dogs are, even though it's been 95 with 100
% relative humidity, we're still out practicing
because you never know when you're gonna get
called to a search. Yeah, always be prepared
and that's a good thing. So thanks for those
links and if you're interested in More about
this search and rescue team thing. Why check
those out now One of the things that I wanted
to ask is, you know, if someone does not have
a dog And just wants to get involved in search
and rescue What are some ways that people can
volunteer to help the search and rescue teams
either in training or in a real event? Well,
so obviously, like I said, ground pounders are
just as important as the canine handlers. Without
the ground pounders, the canine handlers are
a lot less effective. And I call them ground
pounders lovingly because what I always say is
everybody who gets deployed on a search is a
ground pounder first. Even if I get called to
a search and they don't need a live find area
dog like Sasha, I am then just a ground pounder.
And truthfully, I love just walking through the
woods. So if you like that kind of stuff, then
you can become just a ground pounder. You don't
need a dog. You can find a NASAR class near you.
So the FunSAR class is, in my experience, the
NASAR class that I help with here in Bloomington
is a lot of fun. I met a lot of friends through
it. It's just a great class in general. And even
if you don't, even if you're not interested in
search and rescue, but you like the outdoors,
it's still a fun class. You get to sleep outside,
you get to go hike through the woods during the
day, at night. Some stuff that you might not
normally do, so it's a lot of fun. And if you
like to go play hide and seek. And if you like,
you know, when we do practice, we say that search
and rescue is really just hide and seek for adults.
That's the best way to describe it because...
Literally, we say, okay, I want you to go in
this area and don't tell me where you are because
the dog is going to go find you. And so one of
the things that, so if you, let's say that you
don't have time or you don't want to be called
out to an actual search, that's fine. Especially
for canine teams, one of the things that they
always need is people to volunteer to be their
lost subjects. Now that doesn't mean go get lost
and call the search and rescue team and say I'm
a lost subject. That means contact your local
search and rescue team, say I'd like to come
out and be a lost subject for you, and then they
will assist you in getting lost. So don't go
out there and just self -deploy getting lost.
Yes, we will specific, because when the dogs
are at different levels in their training, we
want different things. We like, you know, so
a young dog isn't going to go search a 30 acre
field. A young dog is going to search a really
small field to, you know, get that experience
and to get the whole alert and all that kind
of stuff down. So, you know, the team is going
to have very specific requests of you. But they
should teach you everything you need to know
to just be a subject. That should be a relatively
quick process to show you. This is what the dog
does, this is what to expect when you're out
there. So yeah, if you're wanting to help, you
can do that. During a real incident, I recommend
just kind of staying out of the way unless the
team requests something, right? If you get a
request for, you know, kind of need pizza or
sandwiches or something, okay, that's where it
can get useful. One of the reasons why we don't
have just regular hams helping us out most of
the time is that with search and rescue, there's
a very specific language that we speak. And so
we really want people who know how to speak that
same language as us. And so that's why we kind
of, so you know, while there might be a lot of
hams in the area, we really don't invite them
to come and help us during a search because we
need you to be able to speak this very specific
language that we speak. Very good 812 net ham
1 812 net ham 1 we do have just a couple of minutes
left If you have a question or you can tweet
us at ham talk live If you want to ask a question
about the canine search and rescue so Got just
about a minute here So your training exercises
How long do those usually go Well, I think the
first thing to say is we usually practice two
to three times a week Or at least my team does
I I don't really know what others are doing But
my team usually practices two to three times
a week Usually we're practicing from about six
thirty in the evening till about nine o 'clock
so throughout the year that gives us an array
of Basically, right now, it's sunny the whole
time. It'll be, you know, in the middle of winter.
It's already blackout by about 5 .30, so, you
know, the entire practice will be in the dark
at that point. But usually practice is somewhere
between, depending on, it really depends on the
number of dogs and humans that show up. So we
actually try and do... So we have practice for
the dogs two to three times a week. We try and
also do a practice for human stuff once a month,
maybe once every other month, depending on how
busy we are. And that's just to keep the human
skills up to snuff as well. Now, our dog practices
basically rotate through dogs. We will hide a
subject, we will hide some sources, which is
what the HRD dogs alert on, and we will maybe
lay a track or two for Attracting trailing dog
and we kind of go through and we will we work
basically one dog at a time because we don't
have that many dogs and so we go through and
we try and give each dog basically two or three
problems and Some of those problems are going
to be 30 seconds where they're just Hey, this
is what we're doing now. Remember, this is what
we're doing for the dog. And then we'll do a
long problem. So for Sasha, that's generally
what we'll do. We'll do something really easy
just to get her brain into the right mode. Very
good. Yeah, that might be something just like,
you know, it's a 50 foot problem with somebody
hiding behind a rock. And then we'll do long
problem where okay now we're searching this 10
acre field and They might not even be in this
10 acre field So you have to the Sandler has
to actually call a blank and say my dog has searched
this there's nobody here We are out of time,
but tune in next week. We're going to be talking
about scouting So seven three seven five and
may the good DX be yours