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for ham talk live episode number 26 digital bubble
radio with tony tolbert w9 amt recorded live
on thursday august 11 2016 i'm your host neil
wrapp wb9 vpg thanks for tuning in to this episode
of ham talk live tonight we'll be joined by tony
tolbert w9 amt who's the founder of who's your
dmr a group that operates DMR repeaters across
the state of Indiana and he's going to talk about
digital mobile radio worldwide. We'll take your
calls live in just a few minutes. Last week on
the show I talked about how to get young people
into ham radio and ham radio in schools. If you
missed that show or any show you can catch that
at hamtalklive .com the archive or you can catch
the podcast that's on iTunes, Stitcher, Google
Play, TuneIn, SoundCloud and we're also found
on YouTube. A big shout out to Ryan Cutshaw,
KD9DAB and his father Rex. Rex just got his call
signed today KD9GTU. They were here just about
an hour ago finishing up running some coax for
me and Ryan was up in the attic and I'm back
on HF from home again so thanks to them for coming
over to do that and shout out to to Rex for getting
his call sign so that's some good news there
We'll get your questions ready to go after the
introduction you can call us on Skype The username
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for Tony Tolbert, W9AMT, and I'll be back with
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Tony Tolbert, W9AMT, became a ham as a teenager
in 1996 after experimenting with citizens band
radio and 49 megahertz radios. And in 2011, he
registered the first DMR repeater in Indiana.
In 2014, he started the Hoosier DMR group and
its website HoosierDMR .net as an informational
resource about digital mobile radio. He is currently
the trustee of four DMR repeaters across Indiana
and a technical specialist for the Indiana section
of the ARRL. And he also maintains a GMRS repeater
in Indianapolis. Tony, welcome to HamTalk Live.
Well, thank you, Neil. I appreciate the opportunity
to come onto your show tonight. Yeah, I'm really
interested in hearing about this because I admit
I have not really dive into any of this digital
audio stuff on on VHF and UHF so yeah why don't
you just start out telling us what DMR is and
how that works yeah that'd be great so DMR stands
for digital mobile radio and is an open digital
voice mobile radio standard developed by the
European Telecommunications Standards Institute
And the standard was designed for land mobile
radio purposes for radios that operate in the
30 megahertz to 1 gig frequency range. As I said,
it was originally designed for commercial purposes.
However, the amateur community has adopted it
and adopted it quite well just in the six and
a half years that it has been. So it has expanded
faster and stronger and beyond anyone else's
cognitive thought that it would have expanded
as fast as it had, it has really taken off. It
offers some different variants of voice technology
over other digital modes. One of which being
that it allows for two simultaneous voice conversations
through one repeater, whereas other digital modes
like D -Star and System Fusion only allow for
one. So the adaptability of the technology has,
I think, what has really been the driving force
behind it. Very good. Well, yeah, you mentioned,
you know fusion and and there's a D star So with
anything that's that's kind of new. There's a
bunch of different standards, you know and and
so Why don't you explain a little bit about?
the differences between all those digital voice
modes D star DMR and fusion and And if you think
they're all going to coexist, or is one of them
going to end up being like a Betamax? Sure. Hey,
I still have a Betamax. Oh, wow. Oh, wow. So
yeah. So D -Star was originally introduced at
the first part of the beginning decade, 2000,
2001 era. It's actually an open -source standard
as well, just like DMR. However, it was only
adopted by one manufacturer, that being ICOM.
As of late, Kenwood has decided that they're
going to jump into the digital market as well,
and they're going to offer a D -Star product.
If anyone was at the Dayton Hamvention this last
May, they saw the new Kenwood radio that's the
2 -meter, 220, 440... APRS with D -Star built
into it. So very exciting stuff to see Kenwood
get their feet into the digital market. D -Star
was designed by the Japanese amateur radio league
and it was the first step or leap into the digital
voice mode for amateur radio. And it kind of
got a slow start. Equipment was expensive, it
was proprietary only to ICOM as they were paying
the royalties to the JARL. And I don't think
any of the other manufacturers, Kenwood, Yezu,
had really thought digital would take off quite
as fast or as they had hoped. So with the implementation
of DMR now, It's being an open source standard.
It has really opened the gateway and the floodgates
for digital voice modes I think now that those
other technologies have been implemented and
the amateur community is kind of embracing that
digital voice or radio over IP modes I think
that's kind of the driving force behind Kenwood
introducing their D star product Two years ago
Yezu introduced their product system fusion unfortunately
D star and DMR and system fusion and a couple
of others out there there's p25 which is widely
used among the public safety realms and then
Kenwood commercial and ICOM commercial both carry
a product called NXDN more commonly known as
Nexedge and those are also in the amateur community.
However, P25 equipment is a little bit more expensive,
being that it's public safety oriented. Those
radios tend to carry a higher price tag, so there's
not a lot of use on P25 like there are the other
digital modes. Unfortunately, like I was saying,
D -Star and DMR and Fusion are all different
technologies. And with that comes the lack of
interoperability between the three. So I don't
know that One will prevail over the other. I
think they all offer a different off a different
feature set and a different offering so I I would
be lack to say that DMR might overtake the other
two. However, I don't Don't quote me on that
Yeah, yeah. Well, it seems like it's growing
fast in this area, which you've had a lot to
do with that But it seems you know at least in
this region to to be growing the fastest of the
three Yeah, we've had We've been very blessed
in Indiana whether it be on the Hoosier DMR network
or on the Crossroads network, they're another
network that offers DMR technology in our state.
We currently have 47 registered repeater IDs
in the state of Indiana between Hoosier DMR and
Crossroads and another network that maintains
three or four repeaters up in the Chicagoland
Northwestern Indiana region. So we are very blessed
with DMR coverage. with a very high user base.
We have now over 700 registered DMR users in
the state. We have surpassed Ohio and Kentucky
and Illinois in usage. So our network alone sees
around 300, 350 users on a monthly basis. We
have a Tuesday night DMR net on Indiana Statewide
Talk Group number 3118. And we have anywhere
between 40 and 60 check -ins on that. So the
Indiana community has really embraced the new
technology. And it's surprising to me that it
has been embraced so well because it's not an
amateur technology. As I said, it was originally
designed for the commercial LMR market. Now can
you talk a little bit about you know why you
would go DMR over D star why you would do fusion
over You know DMR those kind of advantages and
disadvantages of those Well, I think it really
comes down to user preference Neil. I mean it's
uh, you know If you're more of a techie guy And
you like experimentation DMR is definitely a
route that you might take DMR is not one specific
vendor selling a product. They now have 25 plus
manufacturers of DMR equipment. And that was
really why the standard was intended. It was
instituted for interoperability, low cost and
low complexity. And because of the 25 plus DMR
manufacturers in the world, that has really drove
the cost of the equipment down. That, I think,
is another driving factor that has caused DMR
to explode within the amateur community. It's
readily available. It's low cost. You know, just
here in Indiana, we have a couple of folks that
maintain the programming information. Anytime
there's a new repeater to be added or there's...
a contacts list. We have a couple of folks that
maintain all that for us. So we update those
code plug files on our repository on our website.
And as a user, a new user, you can go download
that information and not have to fumble through
the programming for a DMR radio. You can actually
look at the programming and learn from how it's
built to kind of educate yourself. at your own
pace to see how it's all put together. It definitely
programs a lot different than an amateur technology.
System Fusion is also a very wonderful technology.
I think it's come by leaps and bounds since its
first iteration. Since Yezu first implemented
it, it now has seen some pretty steady growth.
And D star is also you know a steady growing
digital technology. It is the oldest child in
the basket But I don't think that's I don't think
that we should knock its age by any means I mean
it is still a very interesting technology It
allows for some different features and I think
all three are definitely a very good a good way
to go You know it just depends on What the user
wants you know if they're like I said more of
an experiment or maybe digital or DMR might be
the way to go You know system fusion is pretty
much right out of the box ready to go you program
your repeater in They have an interface called
wires X that allows that repeater or or even
a radio to connect Via the internet into what
they are now calling rooms and and D star is
pretty much right out of the box to you program
your code plug or put your call sign into the
radio. If you're within range of a repeater that
offers DSAR technology, it allows you to connect
to folks all over the world. Yeah, now why don't
you talk a little bit about that? What are the
advantages of all of these digital voice modes
over just plain old analog voice modes that,
you know, you order the $30 bow thing, you know,
and you're on, you know, but Why go digital?
What are those advantages of going to a digital
mode as opposed to just staying on analog? Sure.
Well, one of the big advantages of digital is
the fact that it is digital and it allows that
voice to be compressed and sent out over the
internet. All of the three major digital manufacturers
now, D -Star, DMR, and Fusion, The fixed end
equipment, or repeaters rather, if you will,
they all allow for internet linking. So D -Star
allows, they connect into what are called reflectors,
and there are reflectors, much like Echolink
if you will, or what's the other technology?
IRLP. IRLP, thank you. You can dial into a reflector
and you can talk to a different group of people
and those are Sectioned off by locale or geography
if you will one of the big D star Reflectors
is called 30 Charlie. It's a very popular reflector.
A lot of folks talk on that all over the world
Fusion is the same way now that they've implemented
their wires X technology it allows that radio
to access its repeater and then the repeater
will access again through DTMF codes or maybe
on a fixed basis where the repeater always stays
on a specific room and it allows you to talk
into basically a digital voice chat with other
hams all over the world. DMR also operates through
IP site connect or radio over IP technology.
However, it's a little different. Like I said
being that it's a commercial technology the the
DMR networks in the world again, they have Talk
groups if you will what we call talk groups and
and those are based on local areas Like I said,
we have a talk group for our statewide. There's
a Midwest So again, they're just based on geography.
They're based on language one of the nice things
with DMR, like I said previously, is that it
allows for two simultaneous voice conversations
rather than just one. So you may not want to
talk to someone, you know, through a nationwide
or a worldwide or a regional basis. You can change
over to the other time slot or another talk group
on the other time slot and you can talk to someone
locally on you that repeater or someone through
your statewide. uh, do your statewide talk group.
So DMR definitely has an advantage, I think,
because it offers the two simultaneous voice
conversations through one repeater. And that's,
you know, I would think that would kind of compare
to something like PSK 31 where, you know, you've
got eight to 10, you know, conversations going
on the same frequency at the same time. Exactly.
Exactly. DMR is a technology that was based off
of, if you remember the days of Nextel. It is
time division multiple access or TDMA. So that's
how you get the two time slots varying with one
another. Two time slots in a 12 .5 kilohertz
frequency spectrum. So basically six and a quarter
kilohertz time slots times two. And then those
alternate back and forth at a rate of 30 milliseconds.
So DMR radios, because of their TDMA technology,
allow for better battery life. So with the time
slots constantly switching, you're not a constant
carrier. So you see around 40 % better battery
life. Oh, very good. I didn't even think about
the battery life being better. That's another
advantage of that. Well, very good. It sounds
like some some great technology to experiment
with and Hopefully you'll be able to do that
for long. We're gonna take a break It's time
to pay some of the bills, but we'll be back and
we're gonna take your calls With Tony right after
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your questions. So there's a lot of ways that
you can do that. Probably the easiest way is
just pick up the phone and call 812 -NET -HAM
-1. 812 -638 -4261 and you can join us on the
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for Tony W9AMT who is here and we do have a call
coming in so let's go ahead and and take that.
Hello you're on HamTalk Live. Hey Neil it's Ryan
KD9DAV oh very good we gave you a shout out earlier
thanks for getting that coax run and uh you have
a question for us tonight yeah so i have a question
for you what is the most important and most useful
law in ham radio the most important law in ham
radio yep we're talking about you know physical
laws of nature Well, I guess that'd be electromagnetism.
But what about Murphy's law? Well, yeah. Now,
being a repeater guy, I know Tony knows about
this because I do all the analog repeater stuff
and he's doing all the digital stuff. Murphy
is a very real thing. Especially when it comes
to repeaters now now we ran into Murphy today
running this coax because the connectors didn't
want to go through the little pipe and everything
and so Right right about got heat stroke up in
my attic Yeah, so yeah Murphy's law is a very
real thing And and we know Jerry KC9ZAR is the
latest to experience the lightning version of
Murphy. Any Murphy's Law DMR stories, Tony? Lots
of Murphy's Law. I could take up two hours with
Murphy's Law DMR story. Yeah, I've got an amplifier
right now that will, as soon as it keys up, it
will trip the power supply. But you put a load
on the power supply, everything's fine. Yeah,
that's uh, that's no clue. Yeah, no clue cannot
figure it out So the you need the elusive golden
screwdriver for a job like that Yeah, or maybe
maybe pump some magic smoke in that's it. Yeah.
Yeah Well, I've learned that you can you can
let the smoke out That's the hardest thing to
put back in. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely Well, if
you have any interior problems, I hear that the
SWR spray away I hear that's oh, yeah the sprayaways
and that's good stuff Yeah, they know that they
sell that at the the flea market with the DVD
rewinders and the steel toe flip -flops Now Tony,
I don't know if you know but we actually do have
a commercial that we played back on April Fool's
week of Spray away the SWR reducer in a can.
Oh very nice. Yeah, I gotta get some of that.
Yeah, that's good stuff. Mm -hmm Yeah, I was
just stringing a off -center fed die pole and
I put that thing up there and I was like man
Where's that the SWR spray away? We ended up
having to You know solder some wire to it and
extend that thing to get the resonant frequency
down. It took forever. I just kind of wanted
to string it up there, throw it in the tree,
and it worked. But SWR Spray Away, I recommend
it. Yeah, yeah. Boy, wouldn't it be nice. Well,
Ryan, thank you for calling in tonight. And again,
thank you for getting the dipole back on. I'm
looking forward to getting back on HF from home.
for a change. The things I do for ham radio and
HF, you know, casually almost giving heatstroke,
crawling in multiple addicts, stringing coax
all over the place, hold out all night or a field
day for HF. So Ryan, I have a quick question
before you buzz off. Yeah, go ahead. Did you,
I understand that you just got your license,
so congratulations on that. Woohoo, kudos, applause
all around. Thank you. Very good to have you
in the amateur community. Did you go for your
tech or did you get your general or what level
are you right now currently? My father is the
one who just got his license. I got my license
about a year and a half ago. Okay. Yeah, he got
his technician. He was on CB radio probably.
30 is 30 years ago just farting around and so
he always kind of thought about it and then whenever
I got into it because of Neal's club He kind
of got into it with me. So After hanging antennas
and all that stuff. He decided to give this tech
and got it easily But I got my tech about a year
and a half ago and then I upgraded to my general
at Dayton Okay. Well, congratulations on that.
Well pass my congratulations on to your father
So being he's a new ham, you know a digital mode
might be advantageous to him because he doesn't
have HF privileges. One of the big promoting
factors of digital technology or even DMR for
that matter is that while he is pretty much limited
on his voice capabilities to the HF or to the
2 meter 440 and above He could easily get into
DMR if you're within range of a repeater and
have conversations worldwide with people without
the capability of HF. Definitely something for
him to think about if he's interested. Well,
absolutely. I recently, within the past week,
I got into EchoLink. I kind of knew about it
but decided to try it out and I knew that he
has a buddy Jerry KC9ZAR down in Washington where
my dad grew up and he knew he was a ham and they
grew up together in radio and all that and so
my dad kind of wanted to talk to him but of course
I only have a handheld for All right, Ryan. Something
like digital could definitely you know kind of
get him into it more. I definitely think that's
true Now we've got a tweet here that that kind
of relates to to what we're talking about here
from wa8liv And he wants to know what's the best
DMR for someone who is new to DMR? But isn't
new to digital radio. He says the Ares guys near
him swear by moto solutions so if it's you know
somebody that's new to DMR what what do you suggest
well I mean it really just depends on how much
they want to spend really that's what it comes
down to a price factor you know with 25 plus
manufacturers worldwide some of the most popular
brands are you know Motorola Vertex standard
has a DMR product that is comparable to to everyone
else Connect systems Jerry with connect systems
has some very good products Titerra is a very
good product for entry level Like you said with
with the ham station. They've got the MD 380.
That's a very good product them with a few other
Accessible dealers in Indiana, you know, those
are Very good radio for an entry level if money
is no object. I would say go with a Motorola
I spent five years with a Motorola service station
in Indianapolis a very large Motorola dealer
in the state of Indiana And that's kind of how
I got started with DMR. You know I learned about
the product I studied it Selling it in servicing
it in the LMR community And then finding out
that it's been implemented in the amateur community,
it was like Christmas morning. So I would say
if money is no object, go with a Motorola product.
You can't go wrong with it. Built like a tank.
You know, the unfortunate thing with Motorola
is that they charge for everything. So you will
have to pay for a programming cable and they
do have some fees for their licensing for their
software. Some of the other products such as
Titerra The connect systems radios they offer
their software for free So again, I think it
just comes down to how many dollars you want
to spend All right, very good well Ryan maybe
you need to think about some DMR stuff I'll definitely
think about it. I've I've been looking to get
into digital HF Big thing for me is that I just
don't want to choke up the money for a sound
card interface. They're so ridiculously overpriced,
but that's another story. But I've been thinking
about getting into to PSK. I enjoy it. Now, actually,
that brings up something that we were talking
about before the show started. Tony, why don't
you talk a little bit about the the dongle thing?
Yeah, so D -Star has had dongle technology for
quite some time now. They call that a DVAP, I
believe is what the D -Star version was. A dongle
basically is nothing more than a radio, a digital
radio broadcasts on a frequency, and it's an
interface for you to operate your digital radio,
whether it be D -Star, System Fusion, DMR, They
are testing some P25 and they have just recently
introduced a NexEdge variant as well into the
interface. And it allows you, if you're not within
range of a repeater, to be able to access digital
modes via your computer. Kind of looks like a
very large thumb drive. If you remember thumb
drives when they first came out, they were three
or four inches long and quite bulky. Now I can't
seem to keep track of any of the thumb drives
I have because they've all gotten too small so
they has a SMA antenna jack on it for your for
your antenna and basically it converts your computer
into a radio over IP interface. There's a graphic
user interface that allows you to select different
talk groups or reflectors depending on which
mode you operate with it. There's a huge community
now for support. They are constantly adding new
features to it. Although it's a newer technology,
within the last couple of years, it has come
by leaps and bounds. And it is a very cool way
to experience digital if you don't live within
range of a digital repeater, whether that be
a D -Star or DMR or Fusion. So there's another
option for you, Ryan. Yeah, so let me just clarify.
So pretty much with this dongle, you plug it
into your computer and you make your own D star
slash DMR repeater on your computer. Right. It
basically is, if you could think of it as a hotspot,
if you will. It only broadcasts at 12 milliwatts,
or at least the version that I have broadcasts
at 12 milliwatts. So it doesn't have a lot of
range. If you get more than about 30 or 40 feet
away from it you kind of lose it, but Yeah, I
mean you're making your You're making your personal
gateway right basically. That's exactly that's
exactly you you've created a digital voice gateway
via your computer That's something I could get
into it Yeah, if you there's you know if you
use the product that I have is called a DV for
many Delta Victor for many And it allows for
the implementation of several different digital
technologies. So if you do a search on Google
for it, or if you go onto Facebook and do a Facebook
search for DV4, there's a lot of support groups
that surround it. Lots of technical minds, much
smarter than me. So yeah, it's definitely a cool
technology. I just recently bought into it. I'm
very impressed with it. Jerry Purcell, we were
talking about him, KC9ZAR, is rebuilding his
analog system and he has a question. Do we need
a DMR repeater in Washington, Indiana? Tony,
since you know the Hoosier DMR network, what's
the coverage down in that area? Will echo what
was told to me once by Greg Dean in nine NWO
He once told me that I think we need a DMR repeater
in every county in the state of Indiana So that's
my official answer. I think we should have a
DMR repeater in Washington I'm working on trying
to move my Bloomington repeater to a better home
with a little bit more height and I think to
offer DMR along the I -69 corridor between Indianapolis
and Evansville, Washington would definitely be
a prime location for that. Well, there you go,
Jerry. There's another project for you. Just
what Jerry needs, another project. Exactly. All
right. Well, we're just about to run out of time
here. So if you've got a question, fire it in
here. in the chat room or on Twitter at HamTalk
Live. And we'll see if we can squeeze it in.
We just have a couple of minutes remaining. But
Ryan, thanks for giving us a call. Yeah, no problem.
Thank you, Tony. Oh, thank you, Ryan. I appreciate
the call. And again, pass on my congratulatory
remarks to your father. Will do. Thank you very
much. okay yeah Jerry says it's only time and
money those are the two big things time and money
yeah I've done done a lot with the wide area
analog system and we're kind of tearing some
of that stuff you know back a little bit yeah
it is it's it's time and money so So thanks Tony
some some really good information tonight. We're
glad that you had a chance to come on Yeah, my
pleasure and tell us a little bit about the EMR
and we'll have to have to get into that a little
bit more Yeah, anytime you have any questions,
you know, you can Give me a call. I'm always
available. So yeah, actually before we go Why
don't you you give out your your contact information?
Yeah, absolutely. You can find me on Facebook.
It is facebook .com slash w9amt. And you can
also, if you'd like, shoot me an email, w9amt
at comcast dot net. All right. Very good. Well,
thank you so much for coming on this evening
and filling us in on DMR. My pleasure. Thank
you, Neil. All right. Well, that's a wrap for
This week's edition of HamTalk Live I'd like
to thank my guest Tony Tolbert W9AMT and everyone
for listening and calling in and invite you all
back next Thursday night at 9 p .m. Eastern Time
and our guest will be Charlie Emerson in for
OKL he's the chairman of the Huntsville Hamfest
and he'll be here to talk about the upcoming
Huntsville Hamfest next weekend. For a list of
all of our upcoming guests be sure to visit HamTalkLive
.com So for now this is Neil Rapp WB9VPG saying
seven three seven five and may the good DX be
yours