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Good evening everyone. It's HamTalk Live number
73 as a matter of fact. So an extra 73 to everybody
out there. Tonight we're talking about Netslogger
with the current author, John Marvin AC0ZG. Recorded
live on Thursday, July 13th, 2017. I'm your host,
Neil Rapp, WB9VPG. Thanks for tuning in to yet
another episode of HamTalk Live. Tonight it's
John Marvin AC0ZG the author of NetLogger and
we're going to talk about how it works and how
to use it with your net so we'll take your calls
as well as we always do live in just a few minutes
and last week our guest was Joe Eisenberg K0NEB
He was talking about some new kits and some ways
to make kit building easier. So if you missed
out on that, you can always go to our website,
HamTalkLive .com, and you can listen to it on
demand there. And if you have one of those podcast
apps on your phone, you can go over to any of
those podcast apps and we're pretty much on all
of them. Apple Podcast Stitcher. An iHeart radio
are the big ones, but Google Play, TuneIn, SoundCloud,
YouTube, and then there's some others that take
feeds off of those. So just about all the podcast
apps you will find us on there. So be thinking
of your net questions and NetLogger questions.
And once we do a short interview with John here,
you can give us a call and I'll go ahead and
give you the telephone number. It's 812. net
ham one eight one two six three eight four two
six one or you can Skype us just look for ham
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go ahead and fire that at us on one of those
methods and here in a little bit. I'll let you
know when the phone lines are open and we'll
start taking the calls as well. So I'll be back
with John AC0ZG right after this word from Tower
Electronics right here on HamTalk Live. This
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They help bring you ham talk live each week.
They're taking July To visit with some family
and friends, but they'll be back on the ham fest
circuit real soon They'll be in Berryville, Virginia
on August 6th Huntington, West Virginia August
12th Huntsville, Alabama on August 19th and 20th
and hope to see them myself there. And then Shelby,
North Carolina is coming up on September 1st,
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or you're not going to make it to one of those,
their phone number is 920 -435 - 2973 or you
can visit them at PL -259 .com and tell them
you heard it on HamTalk Live. We're here every
Thursday night 9 p .m. Eastern at HamTalkLive
.com. John Marvin AC0ZG resides in Fort Collins
Colorado and John enjoys the technical aspects
of ham radio especially software defined radio
and he spends a lot of his time tinkering with
hardware and software a little more than than
he is actually on the air and like me John's
a night owl so if you want to find him on the
air late at night is usually when he's on on
40. and he is the author of the client of NetLogger,
which is software designed to help nets keep
track of who's checked in and various information
that they collect. So good evening, John, and
thanks for coming on HamTalk Live. Good evening
to you too, and thanks for having me. Well, let's
talk a little bit about NetLogger, and you were
telling me a little bit of the history of this.
before the show. So why don't you fill everybody
in on how NetLogger got its start and what its
purpose is. So originally it was written by NWHWQ's
Chris Gearhart who was the original author of
the first version of NetLogger and that was I
think even pre -2000 when the first versions
came out. He maintained it for a while and then
gave up support on it and they've been using
it for nets for a long time with no with no support
and then when I first got my hand license in
2012 I got involved in a net that was using it
and you know really appreciated the help it gave
to running the net and decided though that it
would be nice to make some improvements and I
kind of looked into what that involved and realized
it's a big project but I pretty much wrote a
new version from scratch. I did actually talk
to Chris and he was happy to let me try it. A
lot of other people had tried before me and hadn't
completed it, but I kept going and got it out
there and been proving it ever since. So basically
what... Netlogger is is a kind of combination
of three different programs in a sense the primary
most important part is the you know the net tracking
where the where an NCS It could be actually could
be something with not the actual net control
But I'll just use NCS in general because they
could sometimes you just have someone else logging
it and the NCS not having any involvement at
all with the actual program, but But the NECS
would then, as it gets check -ins, enter them
into the check -ins window, and there's some
aids to filling out the information. He has to
enter the call sign, and potentially if he's
got a QRZ account, it'll add a bunch of other
stuff. But it shows who's checked in. And so
users who then are monitoring that net can then
see who's checked in, and they may not. Here
they may not hear the NCS full that well, so
it's useful to see you know the list of people
And once once the net starts going and then people
checked in it also shows you whose turn it currently
is in a turn type of you know turn based kind
of net and That is very useful for you know keeping
track of where things are The second part of
the program is an actual logging program, which
is similar to a lot of online logging programs.
It's probably not as full featured as some of
the others, but one of the advantages of it is
that it works together with this tracking so
that you can keep track of people you've already
made contacts with in the case of an awards -based
net, which is the... primary user of NetLogger,
some of the bigger words -based nets like the
OMIS and 3905 Century Club and some other, a
whole bunch of other nets that actually use the
software. But you'd like to know... when you
see that check -in list, it's nice to have a
notation that says, oh, I've already contacted
these people or these states. And you can say,
oh, here's some states I haven't made contact
with if it's a work called states type of net.
So that's useful to have that. And some people
use it as a primary logger. Others export the
context to their regular logger. But that's kind
of the second aspect of it. And the third aspect
is kind of a chat. Program it's we call almost
instant messaging. It's because it's It's based
on polling. So it only only updates once every
20 seconds but it's a useful sometimes for kind
of a sideband for sometimes the NCS will maybe
do checkouts or ask questions for people while
the net's running on the air. But also it's a
social thing for a lot of nets. If you're in
some of these nets, you get 100 check -ins or
more, you can be waiting for half hour, an hour
between turns. And it's just a kind of way of
learning more about the people involved in the
net. It kind of develops community within the
net. So it's a nice adjunct that's there to you
know, do the do that function while you're waiting
for your turn for the actual main purposes, of
course, you have radio online, I mean, online,
on the air, and that and it's just another thing
that's on the side there. Let's see, I'm thinking
you could use that for, for instance, our local
net. And just to give an example, this week,
the net control had some issues getting into
the repeater and I was the backup net control.
So I could get on there and type him a message
and say, Hey, you're, you know, you need to,
you know, get in a different location because
you're not getting in. Or maybe I pick up a call
sign that the net control doesn't get right,
maybe they got the wrong phonetics and then they
figured it out incorrectly. And so I can jump
in there and, and just type on his screen, hey,
you know, this was a, you know, Sierra, not Foxtrot
or whatever. Right. Just another aspect I wanted
to, you know, I want to give a shout out also
to the John Dean, who's K0JDD, because, you know,
I wrote the client software, but all the clients
all talk to a server, which is running, you know,
the server software that's running on, you know,
a variety of network of servers. And that was
all written by John Dean. I mean, the original
version was also written by Chris Gearhart, but
that was all written in... Perl, which probably
wouldn't have handled some of the size of the
nets that we have now. So John Dean wrote a much
more robust version of the server that runs on
PHP and uses a database backend to keep everything
going. Very good. So what kinds of nets do you
see using this? There's a lot of different types
of nets. As I mentioned, the biggest use is awards
nets, and particularly worked all states awards
nets. There's OMIS that uses it, one of the bigger
users. 3905 Century Club now is probably just
as much of a big time user of NetLogger. There
are others that are... uh... kind of halfway
between it is the while system which uh... does
do awards but they're with their primary uh...
goals has been just they run and that that start
early in the morning and they have to our sessions
and goes all day long on twenty meters on the
same frequency And because part of their function
is to be there on a known frequency to aid people.
So any net would hopefully aid somebody who has
some kind of emergency situation. But that's
one of their functions. They're a lot more informal,
a lot more social. But they also do do awards.
And again, there are other kind of more almost
rag -two type nets where people get together
as kind of a community. I think I'm thinking
like a group called the Moonlighters, for instance.
And there are a lot of 39 .5 and OMIS run multiple
nets per day and some more on the weekend. They're
all single side, OMIS runs all single sideband
nets. 39 .5 also runs a CW RTTY and PSK nets
also. But some other clubs run only one net a
day or maybe one net a week. And there also are
some more localized nets that don't run on the,
you know, run on VHF that are like Aries type
nets. You'll see some of those show up. So yeah,
there's a lot of different, you know, it'll,
you can help with just about any type of net,
but those, the big users I've said are the awards
based nets. Okay, so your users are primarily
either a net control or one of a group of net
controls or the People just checking into the
net. So let's take The net control thing first.
How would a net control? Let's say you're a net
control of your local net and You want to set
up net logger? for your Net a club net Aries
net what it Skywarn whatever? How would a net
control go about starting? to use net logger
for that and then How can some of those like
I said backup net controls or alternates or?
Relays maybe or whatever help out with that Sure,
so the first thing of course you can install
software that you could go to a www .netlogger
.org. And then there's a big fat download button
you can press. And that'll bring up a window
that lets you choose what version to download.
And it tries to be a little smart about it. The
default in the window will be probably based
on the computer that you're visiting with. But
it's... There's a Windows version, there's a
Mac version, and there's a Linux version. For
Windows, it's only supported on Windows Vista
or later, which is pretty old actually. But if
you're still running Windows XP, there's still
the very original version written by Chris Gearhart,
still available, and that's the only version
that it's going to work on Windows XP. Anyway,
you download it, install it. And then once you
start it up, you'll see kind of five big blue
buttons near the top. And if you're the NCS,
you want to create a net, there's one of the
buttons that says create net. And when you click
on that, it brings up a dialogue and you can
give the net a name. And then there's a drop
down box for choosing which server. In general,
just go with the default net loggers. There are
actually three. public servers, but the NetLogger
2 and NetLogger 3 are reserved for, as I said,
the two bigger nets. NetLogger 2 is reserved
for OMIS nets and NetLogger 3 is reserved for
3905 Century Club nets. So stick with the primary
NetLogger server. The next thing that might be
a little confusing is the net password and verify
password. You might think you need some kind
of permission to do this, and no, anyone can
do this. The purpose of the password is just
to lock down the, you're the one who's creating
the password. When you're creating the net, you're
assigning this password to that net, and that
potentially lets you give that password to other
people who you want to give the ability to back
you up or co -log with you. But that's something
you assign. It's not something you need to know
to be able to use the software. And then you'd
enter the net control call sign and other informational
things that are useful to people who are monitoring
the frequency you're going to be on, the mode
you're using, and the band. And once you do that,
you click OK, and that will create a net. That'll
put you in the logging mode of the net. So then
since you're in logging mode, you can enter call
signs in the table in the check -ins table section
of the application near the top. And basically
you can just enter call signs and just hit return
and just enter the people as they log in. I can
go into a lot more depth about that because there
are aids, like if you have a QRZ, XML subscription
you can add you can configure that and then it'll
fill in You know the names and all that stuff
Or you can manually enter that instead of just
entering the call sign you can enter in You know
names or whatever information is important for
your particular net And then once the nets going
when you just click on a particular line it makes
that it highlights that line in pink and that's
kind of that's that's tells other people who
are monitoring the net who the current person
is talking or if it's a turn -based net, whose
turn it currently is to make a call, or some
of that, just a way of keeping track of who the
current person is. And that's basically it for
the person who's controlling the net. You can,
as I said, if you want to have somebody else
do it, then when the... When they start monitoring
the net, if somebody comes in and instead of
doing a crate net, they do a select net, which
shows the list of all the current active nets.
You'd first start monitoring and then there'll
be a button. that says start logging and you
can click on that and then it'll query you for
the password, that particular net's password.
If that's been given to you by the NCS, either
he uses a standard password he shares with the
people he trusts or has some other way of giving
that information to you in a somewhat secure
manner, or there's actually a facility for giving
the code logging ability to someone without having
them have to know the password. That's probably
a little beyond what we're gonna cover on this.
Podcast right now, but there's documentation
for that but allows other people to log for you
and And that can get confusing if you try to
do assignment at the same time You need to be
kind of experienced if you want to ever do that
in most cases It's kind of like the NCS is on
and then he says hey, I've got an emergency I've
got to go do this or you know, I gotta get off
because of you know Lightning or something and
he'll tell the person, you know Can you take
over and start you know start logging you temporarily
or permanently? And that's pretty much it for
the people who are running the net. That's kind
of a quick overview. All right. Very good. So
you could hand that off to someone. And for some
of these nets that may go on for days sometimes
in disaster relief, that kind of thing, you could
just hand it off to the next net control instead
of having to recreate the list or copy it down
all over again. Just log in and pick up where
they left off. Right. All right. Very good. So
that's how to set up a net. Now, how about the
people who are joining the net and want to get
in on some of this social stuff? They want to
see what states are on there, who's on today,
that kind of thing. How do those individual net
check -ins access NetLogger to see all of that.
Right. So again, you install the software and
then once you start running the program, the
left most big blue button says select net. And
when you click on that, they'll give you a list
of all the current active nets. And in the evening,
in fact, in this particular time, that can be
a lot. Currently right now on NetLog, there are
10 nets that are in progress. And it shows you
Basically, the name of the net, what frequency
they're on, what mode they're using, bands, and
so you can tell from the name and from what kind
of net, it might give you a clue to what kind
of net it is. Usually, you have to club, the
first part of the net name will tell you what
club it is. For instance, The OMS 40 meter single
sideband net is on right now and the 39 .5 40
meter single sideband early net is on right now.
So you know those two clubs are running nets
and those tend to be very big nets, a lot of
check -ins. They also have websites that give
you background information on that net if you
want to kind of figure out what's... that net's
about before you got involved in it. But anyway,
you click, I'll give you this list, you click
on the line, and then you click on the button
monitor net. And that will bring up this whole
big check -ins table, and it'll show you who's
currently checked into the net. And you might
see a bunch of colors. There's a kind of, in
the help documentation, there's a... a guide
to what those colors might mean. As I said, the
pink line is who's turn it currently is. And
then there's an orange line for designated relays.
There's a darker purple line for the net control.
The lines might be gray if somebody you checked
in, but then they have checked out. There's a
bunch of color codes that kind of give you status,
and it gives you a lot of information about all
the people who are checked in. And of course,
you could just be there just watching if you
want for a while, but if you want to actually
really participate in the net, you need to actually
get on the radio. And that information is there
at the top. It shows you what frequency they're
on, the mode, and you get on the air and check
in with the NCS when they... give you that option,
because when the net's first starting, they'll
be going through, taking check -ins, and then
periodically they'll, maybe once every 20, 30
minutes, or when they get through a certain number
of people, they'll ask for more check -ins, and
you just give your call, and you'll be recognized.
So these bigger nets have a lot of relays, which
really helps when it's a statewide, a country
-wide, or even worldwide net. the you know, you
might have be a heard by the NCS, but you might
be heard by relay and you know, they'll check
you they'll check you in and and then you can
listen to see who you hear and You know, I'm
taking a notation of that So when it becomes
your turn, you'll know who you know You don't
want to try to make a call to some of you haven't
heard necessarily and as there some of you really
want you know some kind of word credit but uh,
but uh, you know, you might most likely want
to make a contact with somebody you can hear
well and and or you know and make that, make
that call and, uh, and then that'll, that'll
be your turn. And the cost for all of this is
free. And if you order now, we'll throw in a
second. So it is all free. So, and I believe
you do, um, except some, some donations for the
servers. Is that right? Yes. Uh, yeah, I don't.
uh... get it getting money uh... the the ghosted
at the guy i mentioned before who's the server
administrator and off of the server software,
John Dean, he's kind of the administrator of
the NetLogger funds and it pays basically for,
we have three public servers, we have a fourth
debug and development server, and it costs money
to, there's monthly fees for hosting this service
and it costs money to keep that going. That's
where the donations go to is to keep things going
there. And that's on the website there. So all
right. Well, that should give everybody an idea
of what NetLogger is, what it does, how to go
about using it. So if you have a question about
it. Your chance to ask those is coming up next.
You'll be able to tweet us. In fact, you can
send a tweet right now at HamTalk Live or we'll
start taking calls on Skype and on the phone
line. That's 812 -NET -HAM -1 and we'll start
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And it is now time for your call. So if you have
a question or a comment for John, call 812 -NET
-HAM -1. That's 812 -638 -4261. Or you can Skype
us. Just look for HamTalk Live. And you can also
tweet at HamTalk Live. And let me turn John's
audio back on here. And we have. a message from
Eric Bunninger and he says netlogger is great
keep up the good work any chance of an Android
interface for the phone and that's into KOJ and
he also says thank you for allowing him to be
a beta tester and the king of Jersey is very
happy to use that so what do you say about the
Android thing? OK, yeah. Thanks for that question
from Erica. I know him well. And basically, there
is another person I know of who has wanted to
do that and has done some preliminary work on
it. But I'm not sure if they're going to continue
with that. It happens a lot that people start
and realize how big the project is and don't
complete it. There's a chance that I might do
it. The software that I use, I develop in Qt,
which lets me port it between Windows and Linux
and Mac OS. It does support Android. I have compiled
it once and put it on my phone, but it's pretty
much unusable on Android the way it currently
is. It would take a lot of kind of rework for
the UI to work properly. on a phone, I can barely
make it work with a pen. I have a Samsung Note
4 and I have to use the pen to be able to precisely
get to the loop, dots to be able to make things
work. It would be completely unusable the way
it is right now. It would take a fair amount
of work to really kind of make it kind of an
Android app that really would work. So I can't
promise anything there, but there is the possibility.
likely to be any time in the near future. okay
so there you go Eric there's your answer and
thank you for sending in the tweet and if you
have a question or comment about NetLogger give
us a call 812 -638 -4261 is the phone number
that spells 812 -NET -HAM -1 or you can Skype
us just find HamTalk Live or you can tweet us
like Eric did at HamTalk Live and so we'll Keep
an eye on those here for the next next few minutes.
So Let's see here actually James KB 7 TBT as
a oh the chat window. Yeah He's asking about
the chat window on Spreaker and yeah, that's
in in Spreaker. So I don't have any control over
that James We usually just take Take it by tweets,
rather. Oh, on NetLogger. Oh, oh, oh, oh. He's
talking about NetLogger. OK. So he's saying the
instinct message window, he's wondering if we
might be able to rename that to chat window or
something that might be a little less confusing
to some people. That's what he's talking about.
So sorry. I thought he was talking about on the
show. So All right, that's that's from from James
KB 17 BT Yeah, I don't know I think that you
know, there's kind of a history there so people
kind of know what it is and so I My inclination
would be to say no right now, that it would stay
where it is. I would eventually hope to replace,
change it from aim to just I am, because one
of my goals down the road is to change the way
the protocol works, so that instead of being
a poll protocol, which only polls once every
20 seconds, and we can't increase that poll rate
because it just overloads the servers. but to
a push protocol, which then would allow it to
actually be a real true instant messaging. And
it would also improve a lot of the other functionality
if you'd, and consume less bandwidth too, if
things weren't just constantly polling for things
that weren't necessarily changing at that higher
rate. But as far as changes to a chat name, yeah,
I'd probably lean towards no on that. Okay. And
you already answered the next question. So Karate
very Katie to GUT says, can the chat window on
NetLogger be more instant? So there's your answer,
Karen, before you even got the question through.
Yeah, I'll just expand a little bit on that just
that yeah it as I said earlier the we cost money
to run these servers and it's amazing even though
it's just text it you know that these are shared
servers with their share with much other users
and and you have multiple nets running at you
know hundreds of polls running simultaneously,
and it does actually take up some significant
CPU time relative to the cost of running the
server. So I've been told I can't increase the
poll time beyond 20 seconds right now. So it
would take a change in the basic way the whole
program worked to make that instant. And that's
something I'm considering down the road, but
it's a lot of work and not likely to happen anytime
soon. Okay, John, thanks for your answers there.
And if you have a question or comment about NetLogger,
we still have a few minutes here. So give John
your question by calling 812 -638 -4261, or give
us a call on Skype at HamTalk Live, or you can
tweet us at HamTalk Live as well. And we will...
get your question answered hopefully and Just
checking all of those to make sure We're not
missing anything here Okay, so give us a call
we have about six minutes left here so While
we're waiting on on some more questions here,
what are Some of the most common questions that
you Get about netlogger Well, it depends on who
gets the questions because there is a support
site and but John Dean tries to answer most of
them before you know unless I unless uh It gets
to be something pretty technical in which case
I yeah I had to jump in but uh because some of
the most common things is is it just basic Windows
things where they download and don't know where
to find the file to do the install and just,
you know, basically mostly install -based questions
and getting the software installed. So then the
other ones may be how to export their context
to another logger. The NetLogger supports direct
upload of contacts to EQSL and Log of the World.
So sometimes there are questions on that. In
particular, setting up Log of the World, because
that requires certificates to be set up through
ARDL. And so there's sometimes some complications
with that. Those are the kind of questions I've
typically gotten. Okay, very good 812 net ham
one is the phone number eight one two six three
eight four two six one You can give us a call
and ask your question or leave a comment for
John here. We have Again, just a few minutes
left or you can tweet us or Skype us at ham talk
live Now you've mentioned some of the bigger
Nets that have been using net logger Any any
others that you want to mention Hmm there are
I said a lot of one, you know, they run one net
a day or they run a net, you know once a week
but try to think There are nets running almost
24 hours a day it's kind of interesting because
like I'm involved in the triple H net which is
which is the net I kind of came across and discovered
about nets when I first got my ham license was
getting on late at night. And it's like, oh,
there's a bunch of people talking here and jumped
in. And so that was the Triple H net is one that's
one of the later nets, because it comes on at
about 1 a .m. my time. It's 0700 UTC. And they
go for two or three hours. So they cover most
of the night. And then when they're going off,
we have nets that pretty much are popping up
early in the morning. There are a lot of times
coffee nets where people are getting up in the
morning and getting on the radio and people discuss
the weather and stuff like that. The three things
that you always talk about on ham radio, weather,
your garden, and your ailments. Those are the
three. That's the triad of ham radio right there.
So, right. Yep. Yep. So yeah, you could almost
always find a net on the running on netloggers.
Some of the, some of the dead times in the middle
of the afternoon, actually a lot of times the
baby only net you might find might be the wild
system. We run, as I said, pretty much. all day
long and and now one of the things they used
to close the net and open the net but now sometimes
they will just use the same net and transfer
loggers and keep just keep the same net open
and actually change you know you can change the
name of the net you know dynamically so at the
end of two hours they may change to the you know
the the next uh you know session that they have
uh blanking on the name they use but they they
have you know in the morning they have uh kind
of sunshine type nets and at the evening they
call them uh moonbeam and uh But they cover the
whole day. Very good. Now, you mentioned all
day long. Are there any international nets? Are
there any outside of the US that have been using
NetLogger? Not based internationally. I've never
seen a net that's based in Europe using the software.
And actually, there's no reason it wouldn't work.
But again, at night, some of the 40 -meter nets,
like Triple H net, we encourage participation
from international contacts. In the Triple H
net, we actually give priority to them. If they
jump in, it'll become their turn immediately.
a rare station and were willing to join the net
and become part of it, they'll get a lot of calls
from the members of the net to get that particular
contact. But OMS also, and 39 .5 would certainly
actively would like to have international participation.
But I've never seen a net based in Europe using
NetLogger. or any other part of the world. Very
good. Well, John, I think that covers pretty
much everything we had set out to do tonight.
And so I thank you for coming on and sharing
all your knowledge with us about NetLogger. And
hopefully some other Nats out there can make
some use of this. And I'm kind of... been asking
around my local nets here, if we wanted to start
doing that, because it would really help some,
you know, back channel communication between
the net control and the backup net control and,
you know, to where you could you could manage
those things and multitask a little bit better.
And so I think we're going to give it give it
a shot at some point. So thank you for writing
that and coming on and telling us all about it.
Oh, thanks again. Do we have a second just to
give some other resources? So yeah, if you have
any other questions and stuff, there's the NetLogger
website, there's user forums, and there's also
support for answering specific problems. And
then under the application, if you click Help,
there's a Contents and Index, and there's a fairly
thorough documentation for all the features in
NetLogger, because there are quite a few things
that are useful to various people. Kind of what's
there and thanks for having me on and I certainly
enjoy and remind us of the URL again www .netlogger
.org Okay, netlogger .org and again They will
accept donations for that to help run the servers,
but the software is free. The service is free.
So get in there and give it a try. So that is
a wrap for this week's edition of HamTalk Live.
Thanks to John Marvin AC0ZG and everybody out
there in cyberspace for listening and calling
in and come back next Thursday night 9 p .m.
Eastern Time that's when we're here right here
at HamTalkLive .com and if you want to see who's
coming up next in the next few weeks go over
to HamTalkLive .com click on the Schedule link
and you'll see the latest updates there. We're
still kind of juggling a few people around on
different days over the next month and a half
or so, but we've got most of that up there so
you can check that out. So for now this is NeoWrap
WB9VPG saying 7375 and may the good DX be yours.
Thanks for watching.