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ICOM radios. Hey, good evening everyone. It's
time for HamTalk Live. It's episode number 188.
Stealth Antennas and HOAs recorded live on Thursday,
October 31st, 2019. I'm your host, Neil Rapp,
WB9VPG. Thanks for tuning in to this episode
of HamTalk Live. Tonight we're joined by John
Portoon, W6NBC. And we'll take your calls live
in just a few minutes. Last week here on the
show, Don Wilbanks, AE5DW was here to talk about
the Newsline Amateur Radio Club, WA6ITF Memorial
Call Sign and Club Station. If you missed the
show, you can listen anytime at HamTalkLive .com
or on your favorite podcast app or YouTube, or
you can catch the rebroadcast. on WTWW 5085 A
.M. Saturday evenings at about 630 P .M. Eastern
Time. So get your stealth antenna questions ready
to go if you're listening to us live on Thursday
night. You'll be able to give us a call after
we talk to John a little bit. The phone number
is 812 -638 -4261. Again, 812 -638 -4261 is the
phone number. Have that handy. I'll give it to
you again when it's time to call in and ask your
questions. Or you can tweet us. You can tweet
us right now if you like. It's at HamTalk Live
on Twitter. And I'll be checking in over there
from time to time tonight to... See what you
have to say, so I'll be back with John right
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The ceremony wasn't much, but the reception was
excellent. You're listening to HamTalk Live with
Neil Rapp. Thanks as always to ICOM America for
bringing HamTalk Live your way each and every
Thursday night at 9 p .m. Eastern Time. Right
here at HamTalkLive .com. Be sure you check out
ICOM at ICOMAmerica .com slash amateur. My guest
tonight is John Portun, W6NBC. and he's been
a ham since 1965 John is active from 160 meters
to 2 .4 gigahertz and helps get people licensed
and helps people once they get licensed He does
a lot of local two meter and 40 meter mobile
from his RV and is married to KF6OEB. Has three
married children and 12 grandchildren. John retired
in 2002 and spent most of his career working
at, yes you guessed it, an NBC television station.
It was KNBC TV in Los Angeles. also ampex corporation
and sony electronics and he frequently writes
for qst uh 23 articles since 2001 and one's coming
up in the december issue about a six meter version
of the popular two meter slot cube which is featured
in the january 2019 qst and other ham radio publications
including how to deal with hoas and antennas
which is what I asked John to talk about tonight.
So John, welcome to the show. My pleasure to
be here, Neil. Great fun. Now we were talking
before the show that, you know, as I was prepping
this and every time I saw your call sign, I wanted
to play the NBA on NBC theme, but there's all
kinds of copyright violations for that. So we
won't do that tonight, but But I couldn't resist
at least playing the chimes. Whenever we say
your call sign, then we'll play the chimes. I
used to have them built into my car so I could
push a button anytime I wanted to send them out
on two meter repeaters. You know, we actually
turned the repeater courtesy tone one time into
the NBC chimes. That was kind of fun. That is
fun. So, John Portun, W6NBC, is here to talk
about stealth antennas. So, we're going to quit
all that nonsense here. Let's talk a little bit
about the HOAs first. What are some of those
challenges of having an antenna in a restricted
area, like a homeowners association? How can
someone be successful in getting permission from
the HOA or the local government or whoever is
in control? Well, that is an extremely difficult
question. I think a lot has been published in
the ham magazines and bandied about because homeowners
associations are difficult because we know they
really do have the authority. I sometimes think
it's too much, but but you signed that covenant
of agreement and so they do have a right. I tend
a little bit to stay away from the HOAs directly
though I certainly do deal with them because
there's a special breed of person in an HOA committee
but I'm sure you know what that means and so
I'm not a such a I'm not really a political person.
I prefer to go with disguising your antenna and
dealing directly with my neighbors more than
trying to get the board to do things. But there
are some guidelines. You must understand the
public, the people that you're dealing with in
this case. These people around you, they're afraid
of ham antennas and CB antennas, which most of
them think what you are. They're afraid you're
going to wreck their television. You know the
syndrome. We call it the NIMBY syndrome. Don't
do this in my backyard. But here are my guidelines.
Here's the list of my guidelines that I use in
dealing with HOAs. Diplomacy, that's number one.
A lot of hams want to get in there and fight
with them. I highly recommend you don't. Don't
flaunt your rights because you really haven't
got many rights when it comes right down to it.
They've pretty much got the power. So gently,
be gentle with them. But, and this is some things
a lot of people in HOA don't understand, you
do need to let them know you are a ham. Don't
try to hide that fact from them, but deal with
them gently. And demonstrate to them slowly that
you're not going to hurt them, that your transmissions
aren't going to blow their television setup.
Another guideline I have is don't push public
safety with them. People in HOAs aren't concerned
about public safety. They don't care that you
saved a half a million people in Hurricane Katrina.
And lastly, work with people in a group. Don't
try to do it yourself. Get together a number
of other haves that will work with you to approach
if you're going to try to approach it. For example
down in Sun City in Florida a whole bunch of
the hands down there in Sun City worked together
and they showed them an attractive design and
Surprisingly, they got their answer. They got
permission. So those are some of my guidelines
Neil Yeah, and I've actually been down to Sun
City in Florida and they have one of the Communities
they have a ham radio station there in the in
the clubhouse and you can they've got beams and
everything you know they they but you go there
to do it and and maybe that's you know another
another way around some of those restrictions
is you know you you have the the you know the
local club facility um but you know it's a whole
lot nicer to have it at home and and there's
there's ways around that so let's Say that you're
not going to, you know, take on the HOAs. You're
not going to take on those challenges or you
can't overcome those challenges to have the antenna
that you really want. You know, you can't have
that, you know, stack set of 40 meter Yagis.
What kind of stealth options are available and
really work? But as I would like to say, They're
not being hid. They're blending into the environment.
Well, you've got the actual answer right there
on the tip of your tongue. The key, in my estimation,
is not to try to hide the antenna, but hide it
in plain view. That's the best disguise. What
do I mean by hide it in plain view? Very simple.
make it so it doesn't look like an antenna or
make it so it looks like it belongs on your rooftop.
I mean, how recently have you looked up at your
neighbor's rooftop and seen all sorts of things
up there but never thought much about them because
they belong there? Now, let me give you some
examples. I got started in this thing some years
ago now here. One of my early QST articles was
about making my television disk, my my direct
TV dish act as a two meter antenna. And I published
an article on putting a slot antenna in the reflector.
That antenna's gone viral. Just go on the internet
and search for it. You'll find it everywhere.
But the big hit has been the flagpole. You know,
a lot of hams, when they look at flagpole, say,
oh, that makes a great antenna. But they don't
know it's quite a challenge to make a flagpole
work as an antenna. It may seem simple, because
it looks like a vertical. Well, it is, but it's
got to be done right. Well, I designed a flagpole
antenna, which is a no -radial, but you can't
have radials in a small mobile home park. So
it was a center -fed antenna. It's currently
being sold by Grayline Performance. You can see
it at flagpoleantenna .com. They've sold hundreds
of them now. I don't have any interest in the
company, although I talk to the owner quite often.
Also, I built another antenna called the slot
tube, a little 11 -inch square tube made out
of copper pipe, one of the ham's favorite building
materials. And there's a six -meter one coming,
by the way, in December, USD. And currently,
I'm working on, and it will probably be out in
the future, maybe even commercially, the 25 foot
double delta loop. It's in prototype right now
and the prototype you can see in July QSD. But
the keys to, really the keys to stealth and hiding
it in plain view, some of them are these. Make
it small. Don't be afraid of small antenna designs.
There are many good ones out there and that's
what I tend to concentrate on. Another one which
is real interesting is make it patriotic. Put
a dare flag on it. Put an MIA flag on it. Put
an American flag on it. I once disguised one
of mine by wrapping red, white, and blue plastic
tape around the loading coil. People thought
I was being patriotic. Or make it look like a
fixture that fits on the roof. Hide it inside
of a vent pipe. You know, we've probably heard
of the ventenna. Well, it's the kind of beginning
of my thinking about that. Or if you can, make
it look like a TV antenna. I've got one designed
right now that may come out in a while, which
looks just like one of these common TV antennas.
And as you know, the public won't let you take
their television away. So if they think that
thing on your roof is a television antenna, even
though you're not supposed to have them, they're
not going to tell you to take it down. And of
course, as you suggest, put it in the attic.
Don't be afraid of attic antennas. They work
fine I've got a design on the breadboard right
now for a for one that may come out in some months
Don't be afraid of the ducts Your tuner will
take care of it. Anyway, those are some of the
over some of the stealth Recommendations that
I've been into and and you know, it's not even
just hands I've noticed more and more that The
cellular industry is coming up with all kinds
of creative ways to get their antennas up on
buildings and in public, you know, places and
the antennas are in plain view, but they blend
in and people don't seem to complain about them
as much. Yeah, I've been considering a design
of putting some fake palm tree fronds on one
of my verticals. There are some things that you
can do to make it blend in and look more natural
and not so offensive to people who are looking
at this big monster antenna. It helps to have
it. to where it's not quite so obnoxious and
visible. Now my plan is I don't want to move
anywhere where there's an HOA. I just want to
put up everything and I really lucked out here
because I'm up on a nice hill and the homeowners
association was supposed to happen when all of
the lots sold And luckily a ham that lived in
this neighborhood caught me when I moved in,
saw my license plate with the Cole sign on it
and stopped in and said, Hey, did you know, have
you seen the, you know, the, the HOA guidelines?
And I'm like, no, nobody told me about them.
You know, I didn't know they existed. And he's
like, I'll get you a copy of them. I'll bring
you a copy of them tomorrow. But if you're going
to put something up, put it up now, because then
your grandfathered in. So I'm like, okay, we
gotta get this tower in now So I call up, you
know, a friend of mine's okay We gotta get this
tower in before you know before this happens
and luckily the homeowners Association never
did get formed So I haven't had to worry about
it. Now. I'm looking at you know moving again,
and I'm like, oh my gosh I don't I don't want
any HOAs and I'm not gonna try to get on this
political rant because If you know me, I'm like
very, very anti -restriction politically. And
so I just like, I don't want HOAs at all, but
you know, it may have to be that way. So, so
I got to have a plan. So this is good stuff to
talk about. Sure it is. Like I say, you just
got to not be belligerent. Let your neighbors
know you're a ham, but show them by demonstrating
to them slowly that the little antennas or the
ones that don't look like antennas that go up
aren't blowing their television away. So when
they're walking down the street, walking their
dog, they don't say, hey, Martha, what's that
thing up on the roof? It's going to blow up our
TV. Don't put something up there that looks like
that. There are plenty of designs that don't
do that. I've written seven articles on this
kind of stuff, so I know it. Now, let me ask
you this. Let's say you put up some kind of a
dipole. Is there a best color to kind of blend
everything in? You know, that's something I've
asked a lot of people think. If you paint the
antenna blue, it'll match the sky. No, I don't
think so. If I was going to paint an antenna,
I'd paint it gray because gray more likely blends
in with the sky. Blue stands out. It's visible.
Black is in contrast. So if you're going to paint
your antenna, make it blue. I mean, make it gray.
All right. Very good. Well, how does this legislation
play into the power that the HOAs have? Is PRB
-1 effective? I mean we've had this around for
forever it seems like but is it really effective
and what do you think it's going to take to get
something that is? That's a very good question
and I've been following the ham radio parody
act process which unfortunately I get the impression
is not going anywhere. PRB1 most hams have to
recognize does not have any effect on CCNRs if
you've signed a deed of covenant with your homeowners
association. TRB1 is not effective. TRB1 mainly
has to do with local governments. There you can
use it if you decide to go to the building commission
and they say, no, you can't have a tower. You
can haul out TRB1 and that's legitimate. But
if it comes to the homeowners association, Frank,
you don't have too much to do. so really it's
speak softly and don't carry a big stick we're
hoping for the ham yeah yeah we're hoping for
the ham radio parody act but i don't know it
seems to have gone away hope not though yeah
and i see uh uh greg um his last name escapes
me the congressman from uh oregon It's been fighting
for a lot of this Greg Walden Just announced
that he's retiring so That's kind of disappointing
I don't know if he'll be able to get that through
before he leaves office or not, but He's been
a big help to ham radio in the legislative side,
so We will see how that goes, but it would be
nice to to get something with some teeth in it
Well, I've talked enough with John here to get
things started. We're going to take a break and
then we're going to answer your calls and your
questions right after this word from Tower Electronics
right here on HamTalk Live. This episode of HamTalk
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Give us a call at 812 -NET -HAM -1. That's 812
-638 -4261. Now, here's more HamTalk Live. Here's
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Time right here at HamTalkLive .com and be sure
to check us out on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram
and it's time for your calls now. So if you have
a question for John, we'll do it again, for John
W6NBC. Give us a call at eight one two six three
eight four two six one. That's eight one two
net ham one 812 -638 -4261 or you can tweet us.
We do have a tweet here We'll get to that here
in just a second It's at ham talk live over on
Twitter and if you're listening to us on WTWW
or on the podcast edition We're not here. It's
Thursday. So sorry. We're not going to be able
to take your questions here So hopefully you
can you can send them in next time or call in?
Let's go first to John. Let's go first to Brett
and Wy7BG. There it is. He put phonetics on.
I missed it. Okay. I missed his call sign. So
he has a question for you. He says, what is your
opinion of the ARRL's most recent petition for
rulemaking on this topic? Do you think it asks
too little, too much or about right? And if you
could write an FCC regulation that gave the hams
the right to have antennas, what would it say?
Well, I have to admit that I'm not very familiar
with that petition. I'm generally pleased with
what the ARRL does. Yes, they're conservative,
but... I think that's in our own interest. Largely
what PRB1 is, is pretty much what I'd like to
see present for everything, or basically what
was embodied in the Ham Radio Parity Act. Give
us at least reasonable accommodation and go ahead
and set some antenna height limits. You can build
antennas within heights, but I probably haven't
answered your question, but that's my large feeling,
unless you have something more specific about
the ARRL's petition that I could talk to. So
you're thinking that the PRB -1, you know, just
making that into Into a law to where it has some
teeth would be good or or just the regular version
of the parody act the way it was Yeah, I like
the parody act I thought it basically had the
right words in it and If it had been passed I
think we'd have had it what we really have long
wanted just the fact that we have some official
status against the absolute authority that HOAs
have. Yeah, I agree. And something is better
than nothing. And there's a lot of places where
there's just not a whole lot of options. So we'll
go back to some of those options, though. You've
got some camouflaging options that you can do
to kind of make things blend in and Some of the
attic options, and then you've got this this
What was it a double Delta loop you said? Yeah,
this is a design. I think will will be pretty
good itself in my backyard right now My HOA has
absolute no on antennas or on transmitting antennas
and yet This one's been up for two months now.
I've heard nothing from them because it just
doesn't look like an antenna Yes, it's a thing
that sticks up in the air but it's in the backyard.
If you look at the January QST where there's
an article I wrote on the kite antenna, which
is the prototype of it, it's a delta -shaped
double loop made from wires 25 feet high and
eight -foot arms at the top made of fiberglass,
all built from DX engineering aluminum poles
and the fiberglass rods. and wire down to an
autotuner at the base. Covers all bands 80 to
6 meters and has some distinct advantages. It's
horizontally polarized and yet it's a vertical.
It acts like a vertical. Low radiation angle
and it has gain. Yes, a vertical with gain. 6
dB gain on 10 meters and pretty omni on 80. It's
quite a design. I presented it at Pacificon here
recently, and it was quite well received. So
you don't have to use the classical big ham antenna
with all the loading coils and the radials and
all that stuff. There are many designs that just
don't look like antennas. And again, that's the
key, hide it in plain view, something that doesn't
really look like an antenna. When Martha and
Joe go walking down the street, they say, what's
that antenna? They'll say, hmm, that's interesting.
Or hang a dare flag on it, hang an MIA flag on
it, hang a US flag on it. That helps a great
deal. And of course, the flagpole antenna is
a wonderful stuff. Nobody knows that one's an
antenna. Now, now with this with this delta loop
and the kind of the kite shape, could you Did
you put like a kite body on it? So you had the
fabric in the middle, you know, that kind of
waved to make it look like it was a decoration?
No, I didn't. I think that would have too much
wind loading. But I only called it a kite because
the original was shaped like a kite. Just the
pole and guy cables to hold it up. It's a portable
antenna for field day kind of a thing. But this
one that I have in my backyard now is freestanding.
in a ground pipe and it stands up at 25 feet.
It's an inverted delta, a narrow inverted delta,
two of them at 90 degrees to each other. 812
-638 -4261 is the phone number if you'd like
to ask a question give us a call right now 812
-638 -4261 or you can tweet us over at HamTalk
Live and CarlKD9HQT has a question here as well
it just came in on Twitter I have to use antenna
mass and antennas better sort of camouflage but
visible Um, but I don't live in an HOA area and
outside of city limits and neighbors don't care
about the antennas that installed on my property.
So, you know, there are ways of, of making this
work. And, um, I, when I posted some promotions
for this show, I posted one of the pictures of
the flagpole antenna and, and it just does look
so natural. I really like the idea of the flagpole.
Oh, the flagpole is doing very well. And it was
just such a nothing of an idea when I first conceived
of it. But yet, Grey Line Performance has been
selling them very well. And that's the one that
Sun City down in Florida gave official approval
for. And it's a full, no radio, 80 through 6
meter vertical. Yes, it's a small antenna. Yes,
it's somewhat compromised, but people are certainly
using it with great effect where they wouldn't
have an antenna without it. Yeah, I just think
that's a great option. So let's talk a little
bit more about some of the attic options because,
you know, there are some people who have, you
know, some room up in the attic and they want
to... you know if they keep everything inside
then you know they can't can't really see anything
to complain about so what are what are some of
your suggestions on those well mostly attic antennas
are going to have to be some form of horizontal
dipole i don't i don't think you have too much
choice you haven't got enough room for for verticals
and uh and not enough room for any of the sort
of cubical type antennas that might do it. Now,
of course, on six meters, the cubical slot that's
coming out in the December issue is a great attic
antenna if you want to put it up there on your
six meter bump. The two meter one will go up
there too, but the two meter slot cube is so
small. Again, it's very stealthy and it doesn't
look like an antenna. I've got one of those up
and nobody ever notices it. But basically, attic
antennas are going to have to be dipoles suspended
from basically suspended from the rafters. You're
probably going to need loading coil in it of
some form. And of course, in the attic, you can
use a tap loading coil for different bands. And
don't be afraid of the ducts. Yes, they're going
to have an effect on the antenna, but they're
not going to make it not work because they are
just going to provide some change of radiation
pattern mainly. So I recommend shortened dipoles
primarily for the addict. Alright, very good.
812 -638 -4261 is the phone number if you'd like
to call. We have a few more minutes here with
John, W6NBC. So if you'd like to call in give
us a call eight one two net ham one eight one
two six three eight four two Six one or tweet
us and we'll check here a couple of times For
any more questions That may come along as we
finish things up here tonight So John you've
got this this QST article coming up you got anything
In the plans next after after that six meter
comes out. Oh Yeah, I always have two or three
projects in mind. Well, that'll probably be followed
with a stealthy TV antenna One that looks like
a TV antenna. In fact, the log periodic portion
of it is actually actually is a TV antenna a
UHF and TV antenna But it's got two skeleton
slots behind it one for two meters and one for
six meters that look just like the kind of back
elements you see on a typical small TV antenna.
In my mobile home park here, there are quite
a few of those up, even though antennas for transmitting
have been forbidden. You see a lot of those TV
antennas up. They're just little small ones.
They're readily available. Many people have them.
And of course, homeowners are not going to have
anything against TV antennas. Why, that's almost
a constitutional right to have TV. So if your
antenna looks like a TV antenna, and that's what
this one is going to be. Okay. Interesting ideas.
So we'll be looking for more of that in upcoming
issues of QST Magazine, and make sure you check
out the January edition for the... the six meter
antenna. So, John, I want to thank you for coming
on the show and any last words here before we
go. Yes, be diplomatic, be patriotic, let them
know you're a ham and speak softly and don't
carry a big stick. Very good. Well, I thank you
so much for all of your insight and ideas and
look forward to hearing more about These antennas
as time goes on and I wish you well there and
keep on the good work there in the good fight
Well, we'll keep it up it's The greatest thing
in life, you know, I I always wish I could do
some of the things that I do now in retirement
I wish somebody had told me retirement are the
best years. Anyway, so that's where I am. All
right, John. Well, thank you so much for coming
on and we look forward to hearing from you again.
My pleasure. Well, that is a wrap for this week's
edition of HamTalk Live. Thanks to my guest,
John Portoon, W6NBC. And everybody out there
in cyberspace for listening and calling in and
typing in and invite you back next Thursday night
at 9 p .m. Eastern Time. For a list of all of
our upcoming guests, visit HamTalkLive .com and
if you like HamTalk Live, please consider leaving
us a review on iTunes. or wherever you listen,
it helps others find us faster. So for now, this
is Neil Rapp, WB9VPG, saying seven three, seven
five, and may the good DX be yours.