WEBVTT 00:00:10.210 --> 00:00:13.009 Thanks for tuning in. Hamtalk Live will be on 00:00:13.009 --> 00:00:28.309 the air shortly. Please stand by. This episode 00:00:28.309 --> 00:00:31.890 of HamTalk Live is brought to you by Tower Electronics. 00:00:32.289 --> 00:00:36.590 For connectors, cables, and more, call 920 -435 00:00:36.590 --> 00:00:43.310 -2973 or visit pl -259 .com. And by ICOM, heard 00:00:43.310 --> 00:00:48.530 it, worked it, logged it. Visit www .icomamerica 00:00:48.530 --> 00:00:52.250 .com slash amateur for more information about 00:00:52.250 --> 00:01:27.049 ICOM radios. Welcome to... Good evening, everyone. 00:01:27.250 --> 00:01:31.829 It's time for HamTalk Live, episode number 214, 00:01:32.170 --> 00:01:35.510 Collecting Solar Power from Space, recorded live 00:01:35.510 --> 00:01:40.390 on Thursday, May 28th, 2020. I'm your host, Neil 00:01:40.390 --> 00:01:45.390 Rapp, WB9VPG. Thanks for tuning in to this episode 00:01:45.390 --> 00:01:49.519 of HamTalk Live. Tonight we're joined by Dr. 00:01:49.739 --> 00:01:53.900 Paul Jaffe, KJ4IKI, and we'll take your calls 00:01:53.900 --> 00:01:57.459 live in just a few minutes. Last week, Christian 00:01:57.459 --> 00:02:02.079 Kudnick, K0STH, was here to talk about the TuneUp 00:02:02.079 --> 00:02:04.739 event, and if you missed that show, you can listen 00:02:04.739 --> 00:02:08.870 anytime at HamTalkLive .com. on your favorite 00:02:08.870 --> 00:02:13.610 podcast app or on YouTube and You can catch the 00:02:13.610 --> 00:02:21.210 rebroadcast on WTWW that's 5085 a .m. Saturdays, 00:02:21.229 --> 00:02:24.150 but there's a new time that changed the time 00:02:24.150 --> 00:02:28.750 last week We're on about 3 30 p .m. Eastern time 00:02:28.750 --> 00:02:35.550 over on WTWW again at Saturdays 5085 a .m. and 00:02:35.550 --> 00:02:38.770 we're on about 330 in the afternoon now instead 00:02:38.770 --> 00:02:44.189 of I Think it was 630 we were on so Note that 00:02:44.189 --> 00:02:47.169 schedule change there a couple of notes here 00:02:47.169 --> 00:02:51.469 before we get going first of all a double RL 00:02:51.469 --> 00:02:54.189 Released some changes to the field day rules 00:02:54.189 --> 00:02:59.759 today Class D operators are able to talk to other 00:02:59.759 --> 00:03:02.099 Class D operators because there's going to be 00:03:02.099 --> 00:03:05.020 probably a bunch of Class D operators that's 00:03:05.020 --> 00:03:09.400 operating from home this year. So that's a temporary 00:03:09.400 --> 00:03:13.979 rule change and also a club category where you 00:03:13.979 --> 00:03:17.400 can kind of compile people that are in a club. 00:03:18.080 --> 00:03:20.819 So check up on that and again we'll have our 00:03:20.819 --> 00:03:25.090 field day Q &A. uh... show here in a couple weeks 00:03:25.090 --> 00:03:29.330 and uh... paul bork uh... in one s f q will be 00:03:29.330 --> 00:03:33.430 here uh... to give us the latest on everything 00:03:33.430 --> 00:03:35.849 on field day but just want to mention that if 00:03:35.849 --> 00:03:38.949 you haven't seen that uh... that came out today 00:03:38.949 --> 00:03:42.169 so take a look at that also we had some people 00:03:42.169 --> 00:03:45.789 asking for ham talk live shirts we haven't done 00:03:45.789 --> 00:03:47.930 an order in a long time and i didn't make one 00:03:47.930 --> 00:03:50.370 for Dayton this year since Hamvention didn't 00:03:50.370 --> 00:03:54.750 happen so uh... i went ahead and opened up The 00:03:54.750 --> 00:03:57.750 shirt order form again, so if you're interested 00:03:57.750 --> 00:04:01.770 in buying a ham talk live shirt those are those 00:04:01.770 --> 00:04:06.569 orders will go through June 15th and Then I'll 00:04:06.569 --> 00:04:09.710 take the orders and and send that order in and 00:04:09.710 --> 00:04:13.610 get those made and get those mailed out So if 00:04:13.610 --> 00:04:16.170 you're interested in getting a HamTalk Live shirt, 00:04:16.750 --> 00:04:19.569 they're $20 for most sizes and that includes 00:04:19.569 --> 00:04:22.889 shipping and everything. Just go to our website 00:04:22.889 --> 00:04:26.110 hamtalklive .com and there's a link there where 00:04:26.110 --> 00:04:29.269 you find the show schedule and then it also says 00:04:29.269 --> 00:04:32.850 shirt order and at the top of the schedule page 00:04:32.850 --> 00:04:36.649 there's a link to the shirt order. I also posted 00:04:36.649 --> 00:04:39.709 on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram, so you can 00:04:39.709 --> 00:04:42.230 go there and just click on the link and it'll 00:04:42.230 --> 00:04:45.750 take you to the order form if you're interested 00:04:45.750 --> 00:04:48.389 in getting one of those since we haven't done 00:04:48.389 --> 00:04:51.649 one in a while. Okay. Well, the thunder rolls 00:04:51.649 --> 00:04:53.769 outside. I don't know if you can hear that or 00:04:53.769 --> 00:04:57.050 not, but hopefully we'll be able to get through 00:04:57.050 --> 00:05:00.009 without any interruptions tonight. We've got 00:05:00.009 --> 00:05:07.029 a great guest tonight. Dr. Paul Jaffe is working 00:05:07.029 --> 00:05:09.730 on some really cool stuff and we're really excited 00:05:09.730 --> 00:05:12.050 to talk to him. So get your questions ready to 00:05:12.050 --> 00:05:15.009 go for him. If you're listening to us live on 00:05:15.009 --> 00:05:17.910 Thursday night, you can give us a call after 00:05:17.910 --> 00:05:26.930 the interview by telephone at 859 -982 -7373. 00:05:27.290 --> 00:05:30.250 You can also send a question via Twitter. The 00:05:30.250 --> 00:05:32.790 Twitter handle is at HamTalk Live and I'll give 00:05:32.790 --> 00:05:35.790 out that phone number again in just a little 00:05:35.790 --> 00:05:40.050 bit. And also when we get to the time where you 00:05:40.050 --> 00:05:48.709 can call in, again it's 859 -982 -7373. So have 00:05:48.709 --> 00:05:50.730 that handy and I'll let you know when it's time 00:05:50.730 --> 00:05:54.129 to call in. So I'll be back with Paul right after 00:05:54.129 --> 00:05:57.410 this word from Tower Electronics right here on 00:05:57.410 --> 00:06:03.550 HamTalk Live. Thanks for choosing Tower Electronics. 00:06:03.949 --> 00:06:07.990 How may we help you today? We have PL259s, we 00:06:07.990 --> 00:06:11.310 have in connectors, we have SMA adapters, we 00:06:11.310 --> 00:06:14.170 have BNC adapters. What can I show you today? 00:06:14.370 --> 00:06:17.550 Where's the tower? Well, we don't actually have 00:06:17.550 --> 00:06:20.689 a tower with us. But we have all kinds of things 00:06:20.689 --> 00:06:23.670 you can use with a tower. We have power poles, 00:06:24.029 --> 00:06:26.629 antennas, soldering irons and meters. Where's 00:06:26.629 --> 00:06:29.910 the tower? Ma 'am, that's the name of our company. 00:06:30.410 --> 00:06:33.029 We can't haul towers to all the ham -fests across 00:06:33.029 --> 00:06:35.480 the country that we visit. But we have almost 00:06:35.480 --> 00:06:38.060 every connector and adapter you would need to 00:06:38.060 --> 00:06:40.100 connect your antenna that's on your tower. I 00:06:40.100 --> 00:06:42.540 don't think there's a tower back there. I really 00:06:42.540 --> 00:06:45.959 don't. Tower Electronics. Visit us at a HamFest 00:06:45.959 --> 00:06:51.540 near you or call 920 -435 -2973 or see our whole 00:06:51.540 --> 00:06:55.579 catalog at pl -259 .com. Sorry, one thing we 00:06:55.579 --> 00:06:59.519 don't have is a tower. It's not the amount of 00:06:59.519 --> 00:07:03.800 power, it's the size of our tower. HamTalk Live. 00:07:24.819 --> 00:07:27.459 Thanks to Tower Electronics for sponsoring the 00:07:27.459 --> 00:07:31.779 show again tonight. All those hamfests are canceled, 00:07:31.839 --> 00:07:35.759 so you'll have to find them online. But they're 00:07:35.759 --> 00:07:42.259 there. It's PL -259 .com. And they'll be back 00:07:42.259 --> 00:07:44.420 out on the hamfest trail as soon as we get some 00:07:44.420 --> 00:07:48.480 of these hamfests opened up. And you can stop 00:07:48.480 --> 00:07:51.519 by and say hello to Scott and Jill. But for now, 00:07:52.040 --> 00:07:57.129 catch them online. PL -259 .com. Well, my guest 00:07:57.129 --> 00:08:01.750 tonight is Dr. Paul Jaffe KJ4IKI. He's a spacecraft 00:08:01.750 --> 00:08:04.509 engineer for the United States Naval Research 00:08:04.509 --> 00:08:08.370 Laboratory in the field of space, solar, and 00:08:08.370 --> 00:08:12.490 power beaming. Paul has a bachelor of science 00:08:12.490 --> 00:08:14.810 in electrical engineering from the University 00:08:14.810 --> 00:08:18.490 of Maryland, master's from Johns Hopkins, and 00:08:18.490 --> 00:08:21.529 a PhD from the University of Maryland. He's worked 00:08:21.529 --> 00:08:26.569 on over a dozen NASA and Department of Defense 00:08:26.569 --> 00:08:29.870 space missions. He served as a coordinator and 00:08:29.870 --> 00:08:34.190 editor of the Naval Research Labs. Space solar 00:08:34.190 --> 00:08:38.970 power study report and is the principal investigator 00:08:38.970 --> 00:08:45.070 for a solar or a space solar power Related research 00:08:45.070 --> 00:08:48.169 effort. So Paul, thank you so much for taking 00:08:48.169 --> 00:08:51.470 time out to be on the show tonight Neal it's 00:08:51.470 --> 00:08:53.529 my pleasure. I'm grateful for the opportunity 00:08:53.529 --> 00:08:57.769 And I should mention that that Paul came to us 00:08:57.769 --> 00:09:03.240 through another Paul Paul Brown WD9 GCO was interviewing 00:09:03.240 --> 00:09:05.980 you for Newsline. I actually anchored that episode 00:09:05.980 --> 00:09:11.059 of Newsline or that report last week and said 00:09:11.059 --> 00:09:15.000 I had this fabulous interview. This guy is great. 00:09:15.460 --> 00:09:19.450 He's got all this cool stuff. And I had to put 00:09:19.450 --> 00:09:23.909 it all into 90 seconds and it just doesn't do 00:09:23.909 --> 00:09:27.470 justice. So, so he said, Hey, why don't you have 00:09:27.470 --> 00:09:30.509 him on on your show and we can spend some more 00:09:30.509 --> 00:09:33.269 time talking about some, some of this fascinating 00:09:33.269 --> 00:09:38.009 research. So, so tell us about collecting. uh... 00:09:38.009 --> 00:09:41.230 solar power in space and and beaming it back 00:09:41.230 --> 00:09:44.169 in and this uh... satellite that's going to give 00:09:44.169 --> 00:09:47.169 you some data that uh... to try some of this 00:09:47.169 --> 00:09:50.090 stuff and gather some data uh... for further 00:09:50.090 --> 00:09:53.970 development yes so it's uh... and it's a very 00:09:53.970 --> 00:09:56.850 exciting time for us because we recently had 00:09:56.850 --> 00:10:00.269 a space experiment launch this was uh... recently 00:10:00.269 --> 00:10:04.720 on the x thirty seven b which is the Air Force's 00:10:04.720 --> 00:10:08.039 space plane, sort of like a mini space shuttle, 00:10:08.759 --> 00:10:12.659 but launches and since it has no people on it, 00:10:12.659 --> 00:10:15.500 it can stay up there for quite some time. And 00:10:15.500 --> 00:10:19.279 we were fortunate to get a hosting opportunity 00:10:19.279 --> 00:10:22.860 on that craft and launch recently. We're still 00:10:22.860 --> 00:10:26.039 awaiting the data, but it should be up there 00:10:26.039 --> 00:10:28.639 for a good long time, at least some number of 00:10:28.639 --> 00:10:31.759 months, maybe even a couple of years. And we 00:10:31.759 --> 00:10:34.019 should be able to get information that will help 00:10:34.019 --> 00:10:36.840 us advance the technology. It probably makes 00:10:36.840 --> 00:10:38.480 sense for me to step back a little bit and just 00:10:38.480 --> 00:10:41.659 talk about what space solar is and what the motivation 00:10:41.659 --> 00:10:47.120 for it is. The idea actually dates back quite 00:10:47.120 --> 00:10:50.720 some time depending on which historical references 00:10:50.720 --> 00:10:56.149 you trust. could be Isaac Asimov back in 1941 00:10:56.149 --> 00:10:58.970 who wrote about it in a short story called Reason 00:10:58.970 --> 00:11:01.169 that appeared in the iRobot collection that some 00:11:01.169 --> 00:11:03.669 of your listeners might be familiar with. And 00:11:03.669 --> 00:11:07.750 then there was a noteworthy article in the journal 00:11:07.750 --> 00:11:12.769 Science in 1968 authored by Peter Glaser. But 00:11:12.769 --> 00:11:16.070 the main idea is that you are collecting sunlight 00:11:16.070 --> 00:11:19.509 in space and then sending it wirelessly to the 00:11:19.509 --> 00:11:22.580 earth. And you might reasonably ask, well, the 00:11:22.580 --> 00:11:24.399 sunlight hits the earth, even if you don't have 00:11:24.399 --> 00:11:26.179 a satellite in space, why would you add this 00:11:26.179 --> 00:11:30.639 extra step? And the reasoning goes along these 00:11:30.639 --> 00:11:34.500 lines. On the earth, of course, we have nighttime, 00:11:35.480 --> 00:11:38.879 which averaged over the course of the year means 00:11:38.879 --> 00:11:41.600 half the time you're not getting sunlight. And 00:11:41.600 --> 00:11:45.759 then with clouds and weather and the atmosphere, 00:11:46.539 --> 00:11:48.320 the amount of sunlight that you have access to 00:11:48.320 --> 00:11:52.490 is further reduced. Depending on the orbit you 00:11:52.490 --> 00:11:55.850 select in space you can be in sunlight greater 00:11:55.850 --> 00:11:58.230 than 99 % of the time and you never have to worry 00:11:58.230 --> 00:12:03.230 about clouds or weather losses and The sunlight 00:12:03.230 --> 00:12:06.289 is going to be brighter there than anywhere on 00:12:06.289 --> 00:12:11.710 earth so the trick then is figuring out an economical 00:12:11.710 --> 00:12:14.769 way or a way that makes sense for whatever your 00:12:14.769 --> 00:12:17.450 particular application is To collect that sunlight 00:12:17.450 --> 00:12:19.190 and then to send it to the place where you need 00:12:19.190 --> 00:12:23.039 it on earth in the ideal situation you could 00:12:23.039 --> 00:12:26.019 think of space solar as having the benefits of 00:12:26.019 --> 00:12:28.919 being clean because like ground -based solar 00:12:28.919 --> 00:12:33.779 there's no Carbon dioxide that's produced it 00:12:33.779 --> 00:12:38.159 is constant unlike solar on the ground and Something 00:12:38.159 --> 00:12:40.000 that's unique about it compared to any other 00:12:40.000 --> 00:12:42.480 energy source is that it can be transmitted globally 00:12:42.480 --> 00:12:44.519 So you could think of this maybe in the same 00:12:44.519 --> 00:12:47.889 terms that you would think about GPS or another 00:12:47.889 --> 00:12:50.230 satellite constellation that provides global 00:12:50.230 --> 00:12:54.049 service the idea that you could get energy Anywhere 00:12:54.049 --> 00:12:56.330 in the world and then of course the Sun is the 00:12:56.330 --> 00:12:58.990 closest thing we have in our solar system to 00:12:58.990 --> 00:13:02.370 an unlimited energy source and say Fusion reactor 00:13:02.370 --> 00:13:05.590 we can already take advantage of so that's kind 00:13:05.590 --> 00:13:10.009 of the basic lay of the land for What it is and 00:13:10.009 --> 00:13:14.850 what the motivation comes from? So what kind 00:13:14.850 --> 00:13:21.960 of What data do you get from the satellite? What 00:13:21.960 --> 00:13:25.299 kind of data are you gathering and how do you 00:13:25.299 --> 00:13:28.580 use that to try to test some of the theories 00:13:28.580 --> 00:13:32.799 in making this all work? So I should mention 00:13:32.799 --> 00:13:35.539 pretty early on here that there's a lot of different 00:13:35.539 --> 00:13:38.039 ways that solar power satellites could be implemented. 00:13:38.899 --> 00:13:43.580 There was a sort of heyday in the 1970s during 00:13:43.580 --> 00:13:47.399 the first energy crisis. in which NASA and the 00:13:47.399 --> 00:13:49.639 Department of Energy worked together and spent 00:13:49.639 --> 00:13:52.419 quite a bit of money on studies and some early 00:13:52.419 --> 00:13:55.460 technology demonstrations to look at how this 00:13:55.460 --> 00:13:58.360 could be done. And of course, the energy crisis 00:13:58.360 --> 00:14:01.259 at that time dissipated and interest waned and 00:14:01.259 --> 00:14:03.460 people said, oh, you know, my gas is less than 00:14:03.460 --> 00:14:05.080 a dollar a gallon again. Why am I going to worry 00:14:05.080 --> 00:14:07.879 about energy? Fast forward a couple of decades 00:14:07.879 --> 00:14:11.379 and we still have to worry about energy for some 00:14:11.379 --> 00:14:14.000 of the same reasons and for some new reasons. 00:14:14.240 --> 00:14:18.519 to, and certainly though most of our energy still 00:14:18.519 --> 00:14:22.559 does come from fossil fuels, there's of course 00:14:22.559 --> 00:14:24.759 debate as to exactly when they might run out, 00:14:24.759 --> 00:14:26.960 but I think it's fairly uncontroversial to say 00:14:26.960 --> 00:14:30.360 that they will run out at some point. So because 00:14:30.360 --> 00:14:32.759 there's these different ways that solar power 00:14:32.759 --> 00:14:36.360 satellites could be implemented, the type of 00:14:36.360 --> 00:14:40.500 technology that might be used varies a lot. The 00:14:40.500 --> 00:14:42.360 experiment that we launched recently and that 00:14:42.360 --> 00:14:45.679 we're going to get the data from pertains to 00:14:45.679 --> 00:14:49.480 a particular concept called the sandwich approach. 00:14:50.080 --> 00:14:52.500 And this is a concept in which the sunlight is 00:14:52.500 --> 00:14:55.320 collected using solar cells. And there are, of 00:14:55.320 --> 00:14:57.659 course, alternatives. You could use some sort 00:14:57.659 --> 00:15:01.000 of heat engine or even something exotic like 00:15:01.000 --> 00:15:04.309 a sun pumped laser. But for the sandwich approach, 00:15:04.730 --> 00:15:07.350 you use photovoltaics and you use microwave power 00:15:07.350 --> 00:15:09.230 transmission, which is going to be very familiar 00:15:09.230 --> 00:15:16.169 to hands. So even within this category of solar 00:15:16.169 --> 00:15:19.210 power satellites that use photovoltaics for solar 00:15:19.210 --> 00:15:21.789 collection and microwave power transmission for 00:15:21.789 --> 00:15:24.389 wireless power transmission, there's still a 00:15:24.389 --> 00:15:27.149 huge range of different approaches. The experiment 00:15:27.149 --> 00:15:31.429 that we have on the X37B takes the photovoltaics 00:15:31.799 --> 00:15:35.779 has the conversion electronics as a layer under 00:15:35.779 --> 00:15:38.120 the photovoltaics and then finally has a bottom 00:15:38.120 --> 00:15:41.940 layer that is the actual transmit antenna element. 00:15:42.500 --> 00:15:46.940 So what it does is it uses a large phased array 00:15:46.940 --> 00:15:50.220 as the transmit antenna and then sort of the 00:15:50.220 --> 00:15:52.740 top surface of that is covered with the photovoltaics 00:15:52.740 --> 00:15:55.240 and then there's a separate part of the satellite 00:15:55.240 --> 00:15:59.240 that redirects the sunlight using large reflectors 00:15:59.240 --> 00:16:01.580 to track the sun as it goes to the orbit. So 00:16:01.580 --> 00:16:05.679 this is an introduction or a background to your 00:16:05.679 --> 00:16:07.960 question about what data we're going to get and 00:16:07.960 --> 00:16:10.519 how we're going to use it. The experiment we 00:16:10.519 --> 00:16:14.000 have on X37 does not actually transmit any energy 00:16:14.000 --> 00:16:17.240 into space. What it does instead is the energy 00:16:17.240 --> 00:16:20.519 that's generated is transmitted or transferred 00:16:20.519 --> 00:16:24.820 really into An electronic load so that we can 00:16:24.820 --> 00:16:28.340 very accurately measure the output and we can 00:16:28.340 --> 00:16:31.580 measure then in turn The efficiency of the module 00:16:31.580 --> 00:16:34.299 and we can also keep track of its temperature 00:16:34.299 --> 00:16:37.620 performance Many of your listeners might know 00:16:37.620 --> 00:16:41.320 the temperature control in space is a lot more 00:16:41.320 --> 00:16:44.240 difficult than it is on the earth Because we 00:16:44.240 --> 00:16:47.379 lose one of the three common ways that we use 00:16:47.379 --> 00:16:51.629 for moving heat around for folks who recall their 00:16:51.629 --> 00:16:55.250 high school science classes, they might know 00:16:55.250 --> 00:16:58.330 that we move heat through radiation, conduction, 00:16:58.629 --> 00:17:02.690 and convection. Convection requires some sort 00:17:02.690 --> 00:17:05.970 of working fluid, which on the Earth can be air. 00:17:06.710 --> 00:17:09.869 In space, there's no air, of course, so we are 00:17:09.869 --> 00:17:13.069 limited to conduction for moving heat around 00:17:13.069 --> 00:17:15.789 a spacecraft and then radiation for getting it 00:17:15.789 --> 00:17:20.279 into space. If you have a large spacecraft and 00:17:20.279 --> 00:17:23.880 a large solar array and it's not going to be 00:17:23.880 --> 00:17:26.319 100 % efficient. There's going to be a lot of 00:17:26.319 --> 00:17:32.019 heat that needs to be dissipated and the DC to 00:17:32.019 --> 00:17:34.140 RF conversion electronics under the solar array 00:17:34.140 --> 00:17:37.980 is also going to generate waste heat. So a big 00:17:37.980 --> 00:17:40.559 focus of the experiment is seeing whether we 00:17:40.559 --> 00:17:43.960 have been successful in our design for controlling 00:17:43.960 --> 00:17:47.079 the heat. So the main things to summarize are 00:17:47.400 --> 00:17:49.420 measuring the efficiency of the sunlight to microwave 00:17:49.420 --> 00:17:52.579 conversion aspect of this module and then also 00:17:52.579 --> 00:17:55.539 measuring the thermal performance. Okay, very 00:17:55.539 --> 00:17:59.819 good. That makes total sense. And if they're 00:17:59.819 --> 00:18:01.940 listening to this show and they know what I do 00:18:01.940 --> 00:18:04.099 for a living, they better remember their high 00:18:04.099 --> 00:18:13.960 school science. So now once you work out the 00:18:13.960 --> 00:18:17.039 collection, you've got the satellite to work 00:18:17.039 --> 00:18:20.079 on the collection and I'm sure there's a whole 00:18:20.079 --> 00:18:22.359 series of things that are going to have to take 00:18:22.359 --> 00:18:25.839 place to get to this point. But once you do get 00:18:25.839 --> 00:18:30.000 it transferred into RF and you beam the RF down, 00:18:30.279 --> 00:18:34.160 then what are you going to do with it then? Once 00:18:34.160 --> 00:18:38.039 you get it back down here as RF? Important question. 00:18:39.360 --> 00:18:43.359 The receiver is comprised of a series of what 00:18:43.359 --> 00:18:46.839 are called rectennas. Rectenna is a portmanteau 00:18:46.839 --> 00:18:49.740 or a combination of the words rectifier and antenna, 00:18:50.400 --> 00:18:53.259 and it's a special kind of antenna, and it can 00:18:53.259 --> 00:18:57.299 take a variety of forms, dipoles or a whole range 00:18:57.299 --> 00:19:00.400 of different forms depending on the polarization 00:19:00.400 --> 00:19:03.779 and particular goals, the energy density you 00:19:03.779 --> 00:19:06.650 expect to fall on it. takes the microwave and 00:19:06.650 --> 00:19:09.710 converts it back to DC on the ground. To help 00:19:09.710 --> 00:19:12.029 illustrate this, and this is something that I 00:19:12.029 --> 00:19:13.789 suspect a lot of hams are familiar with, because 00:19:13.789 --> 00:19:16.890 this idea is not new. The idea of a rectenna 00:19:16.890 --> 00:19:19.789 has been around since at least the 60s. And even 00:19:19.789 --> 00:19:23.009 if you look at radio electronics or any of the 00:19:23.009 --> 00:19:26.750 old electronics magazines, they would often have 00:19:26.750 --> 00:19:28.569 different articles about how you could make your 00:19:28.569 --> 00:19:32.069 own microwave detector or microwave leakage detector. 00:19:32.559 --> 00:19:35.920 But it basically depends on having a shot key 00:19:35.920 --> 00:19:41.160 diode and a matching circuit that matches the 00:19:41.160 --> 00:19:43.440 impedance so that you get the maximum energy 00:19:43.440 --> 00:19:46.839 up. To help folks understand this, because this 00:19:46.839 --> 00:19:48.859 may be common knowledge among hands, but certainly 00:19:48.859 --> 00:19:52.279 in the general public less so, earlier this year 00:19:52.279 --> 00:19:56.400 we actually had astronaut Jessica Mir on the 00:19:56.400 --> 00:19:59.539 space station do a demonstration of a rectenna. 00:19:59.680 --> 00:20:02.599 You can make a very simple one just by taking 00:20:02.599 --> 00:20:06.240 a Schottky diode and an LED and putting them 00:20:06.240 --> 00:20:09.619 together, anode to cathode and cathode to anode, 00:20:09.880 --> 00:20:12.819 and it will light up in the presence of Wi -Fi 00:20:12.819 --> 00:20:15.240 or even the very small amount of leakage that's 00:20:15.240 --> 00:20:19.140 common from your kitchen microwave oven. So on 00:20:19.140 --> 00:20:22.259 the space station, Jessica Muir took one that 00:20:22.259 --> 00:20:25.539 we had built and sent up. on one of the space 00:20:25.539 --> 00:20:27.759 station resupply missions and showed how she 00:20:27.759 --> 00:20:31.000 could light up this led just using the wi -fi 00:20:31.000 --> 00:20:34.059 on the international space station so it's a 00:20:34.059 --> 00:20:35.599 simple demonstration that pretty much anyone 00:20:35.599 --> 00:20:38.759 can do at home to show how the receiver works 00:20:38.759 --> 00:20:45.519 the elements in the receiver very cool so so 00:20:45.519 --> 00:20:49.460 you mentioned and in some of your stuff about 00:20:49.460 --> 00:20:56.190 how ham radio has really helped with this research 00:20:56.190 --> 00:21:01.150 and filled in some of the wave mechanics and 00:21:01.150 --> 00:21:03.950 things like that. Tell us a little bit about 00:21:03.950 --> 00:21:07.430 the connection to ham radio. Yeah, absolutely. 00:21:07.509 --> 00:21:11.269 So I've had my ham license now for about 11 years, 00:21:11.710 --> 00:21:14.390 maybe a little bit longer. I got it before my 00:21:14.390 --> 00:21:17.450 first son was born, anticipating that once I 00:21:17.450 --> 00:21:19.109 became a parent I was going to have a lot less 00:21:19.109 --> 00:21:21.670 time for things, which turned out to be accurate. 00:21:23.419 --> 00:21:28.920 and I know in getting ready to take the hand 00:21:28.920 --> 00:21:31.500 licensing advanced and I was a technician class 00:21:31.500 --> 00:21:35.359 and then immediately general and I was certainly 00:21:35.359 --> 00:21:38.960 helped by the fact that I had a at the time a 00:21:38.960 --> 00:21:41.740 education in electrical engineering there is 00:21:41.740 --> 00:21:44.240 quite a bit of crossover as major listeners might 00:21:44.240 --> 00:21:50.640 know so thinking about both In practice and sort 00:21:50.640 --> 00:21:52.839 of the theory from my educational background 00:21:52.839 --> 00:21:55.440 together helps a lot right like there's been 00:21:55.440 --> 00:22:00.559 I think a loss in some ways of that sort of hands 00:22:00.559 --> 00:22:04.839 -on and intuitive Knowledge that comes with being 00:22:04.839 --> 00:22:06.519 a ham, right? We're seeing a little bit of a 00:22:06.519 --> 00:22:09.119 resurgence with the whole maker movement and 00:22:09.119 --> 00:22:13.240 the like and it's really reassuring to me that 00:22:13.240 --> 00:22:15.980 the ham community I think is is responding in 00:22:15.980 --> 00:22:18.900 a way that makes sense like Some of your listeners 00:22:18.900 --> 00:22:22.460 might be able to understand the context here. 00:22:22.680 --> 00:22:28.799 So, you know, ARL now has on the air in addition 00:22:28.799 --> 00:22:33.240 to QST, and I get the on the air not just because 00:22:33.240 --> 00:22:35.720 it's helpful for me, but also because I'm hoping 00:22:35.720 --> 00:22:39.720 to get my kids into it. And definitely my sons 00:22:39.720 --> 00:22:44.059 have expressed interest in ham radio and I got, 00:22:44.599 --> 00:22:47.440 I forget which. company it was now that put out 00:22:47.440 --> 00:22:50.920 a comic book some time ago talking about the 00:22:50.920 --> 00:22:53.880 different aspects and facets of HammerU, but 00:22:53.880 --> 00:22:56.000 I sort of surreptitiously printed that out and 00:22:56.000 --> 00:22:59.779 let it hang out around the house. But yeah, but 00:22:59.779 --> 00:23:01.819 certainly just thinking about frequencies and 00:23:01.819 --> 00:23:05.440 spectrum and wavelength and modulation schemes 00:23:05.440 --> 00:23:08.759 and understanding the ionosphere and how different 00:23:08.759 --> 00:23:12.220 parts of the spectrum are more or less conducive 00:23:12.220 --> 00:23:15.039 to how radio waves and microwaves are going to 00:23:15.039 --> 00:23:18.789 travel. has definitely been helpful to me. So 00:23:18.789 --> 00:23:22.690 there's I think a lot of crossover and I think 00:23:22.690 --> 00:23:24.970 that anyone who has an electrical engineering 00:23:24.970 --> 00:23:27.849 degree is doing themselves a disservice by not 00:23:27.849 --> 00:23:30.529 also getting a ham license because it's not that 00:23:30.529 --> 00:23:33.630 much extra to learn and it opens up the whole 00:23:33.630 --> 00:23:38.569 world of ham radio. So there's I think missed 00:23:38.569 --> 00:23:40.450 opportunity a lot of time. I talked to a lot 00:23:40.450 --> 00:23:42.490 of my electrical engineering colleagues and it's 00:23:42.490 --> 00:23:44.109 like I don't understand why you don't have a 00:23:44.109 --> 00:23:50.339 ham license. Well, there you go. There's your 00:23:50.339 --> 00:23:55.039 advertisement for getting your ham license. Obviously, 00:23:55.519 --> 00:23:58.619 you're hoping that this is going to turn into 00:23:58.619 --> 00:24:02.740 something. What are your hopes for the next few 00:24:02.740 --> 00:24:11.220 years in this project? There's a mix of different 00:24:11.220 --> 00:24:17.240 answers for that. Often folks ask is why is the 00:24:17.240 --> 00:24:21.519 Navy doing this or and there's I guess also the 00:24:21.519 --> 00:24:23.519 question What does the Navy do in space and the 00:24:23.519 --> 00:24:25.579 answer to that really is like most of the earth's 00:24:25.579 --> 00:24:27.519 surface is covered by water and one of the best 00:24:27.519 --> 00:24:32.000 ways to use that for communications or for Observation 00:24:32.000 --> 00:24:35.900 or what -have -you is is from space You know 00:24:35.900 --> 00:24:39.200 in a lot of our recent conflicts one of the biggest 00:24:39.200 --> 00:24:43.220 challenges has been getting energy to places 00:24:43.220 --> 00:24:46.460 like Ford operating bases and combat outposts. 00:24:46.559 --> 00:24:49.819 We've unfortunately lost a lot of people and 00:24:49.819 --> 00:24:54.140 endured a lot of casualties for things like bringing 00:24:54.140 --> 00:24:58.819 trucks full of fuel to places that are dangerous 00:24:58.819 --> 00:25:03.279 and hostile. If there was a way to send the energy 00:25:03.279 --> 00:25:07.119 directly from space to such places, that would 00:25:07.119 --> 00:25:11.920 be truly game changing. And taking it even To 00:25:11.920 --> 00:25:15.740 a larger scale, like you can imagine how the 00:25:15.740 --> 00:25:18.220 developing world, which has a ever increasing 00:25:18.220 --> 00:25:21.119 thirst for energy, is going to need to have electricity 00:25:21.119 --> 00:25:23.940 supplied in some way. And if there's a country 00:25:23.940 --> 00:25:27.980 or a company that's able to supply that from 00:25:27.980 --> 00:25:30.680 space, even without any existing infrastructure, 00:25:31.339 --> 00:25:34.920 it's a really powerful prospect. Now, we have 00:25:34.920 --> 00:25:37.579 to be realistic. The fact is that this technology 00:25:37.579 --> 00:25:41.079 is still maturing. That includes both the power 00:25:41.079 --> 00:25:43.460 beaming technology and a lot of aspects of the 00:25:43.460 --> 00:25:48.900 space systems for a lot of the historically Notable 00:25:48.900 --> 00:25:52.759 concepts a Ton of mass is required to be put 00:25:52.759 --> 00:25:56.440 in space, right? So we're to to make the power 00:25:56.440 --> 00:25:59.740 beaming efficient particularly for microwave 00:25:59.740 --> 00:26:02.539 you need very large apertures and that translates 00:26:02.539 --> 00:26:06.920 into a lot of mass for a spacecraft and the economics 00:26:06.920 --> 00:26:10.009 like in so many parts of our world are really 00:26:10.009 --> 00:26:13.289 what drive things in the end. DoD is a little 00:26:13.289 --> 00:26:16.089 bit different because we're not paying 10 cents 00:26:16.089 --> 00:26:18.849 a kilowatt hour for electricity for our soldiers, 00:26:18.970 --> 00:26:22.670 sailors, and Marines that are Ford based. In 00:26:22.670 --> 00:26:25.210 some situations, we're paying in excess of $10 00:26:25.210 --> 00:26:27.789 a kilowatt hour, depending on how hard it was 00:26:27.789 --> 00:26:30.009 to get the fuel to power the generator there. 00:26:30.049 --> 00:26:32.789 They call this the fully burdened cost of fuel. 00:26:33.250 --> 00:26:36.470 So you can understand why the Navy and why DoD 00:26:36.470 --> 00:26:38.859 would be interested in this. And you can see 00:26:38.859 --> 00:26:42.359 how as the technology matures, it may become 00:26:42.359 --> 00:26:46.400 something that is valuable and compelling for 00:26:46.400 --> 00:26:49.339 other folks to supply energy in other contexts. 00:26:49.779 --> 00:26:51.880 And just from like a geopolitical standpoint, 00:26:52.400 --> 00:26:55.640 you can envision how if there is this capability, 00:26:56.660 --> 00:26:58.380 it's something that we would probably want the 00:26:58.380 --> 00:27:03.180 United States to be at the forefront or not too 00:27:03.180 --> 00:27:07.359 far behind on. Right. One example. that I often 00:27:07.359 --> 00:27:12.319 use or analogy more accurately is to GPS, right? 00:27:12.359 --> 00:27:15.859 I mentioned briefly earlier, but if we were in 00:27:15.859 --> 00:27:20.200 1960 and I told you at that time, like, hey, 00:27:20.299 --> 00:27:23.400 you know, wouldn't it be great if we could have 00:27:23.400 --> 00:27:27.119 a constellation of dozens of satellites and you 00:27:27.119 --> 00:27:29.259 could just have a little handheld device and 00:27:29.259 --> 00:27:31.160 no matter where you were in the world, it could 00:27:31.160 --> 00:27:33.569 tell you exactly where you were. You would look 00:27:33.569 --> 00:27:36.930 at me like I was crazy because at that time we 00:27:36.930 --> 00:27:39.710 had a handful of satellites and getting into 00:27:39.710 --> 00:27:44.130 space was still Chansey at best, right? You probably 00:27:44.130 --> 00:27:48.369 have seen videos of all the rocket explosions 00:27:48.369 --> 00:27:52.029 from that era and atomic clocks which are central 00:27:52.029 --> 00:27:56.349 to GPS's function took up several rooms. So the 00:27:56.349 --> 00:27:58.410 idea of putting something like that on the satellite 00:27:58.410 --> 00:28:01.000 was Completely preposterous, right? We were lucky 00:28:01.000 --> 00:28:02.599 to be able to put up something the size of a 00:28:02.599 --> 00:28:06.380 grape grapefruit much less something that Took 00:28:06.380 --> 00:28:09.079 up several rooms and required very precise temperature 00:28:09.079 --> 00:28:13.640 control and the like so but over time the technology 00:28:13.640 --> 00:28:16.920 for miniaturizing and making space where the 00:28:16.920 --> 00:28:19.140 atomic clocks was developed actually at the naval 00:28:19.140 --> 00:28:23.660 research laboratory where where I work and The 00:28:23.660 --> 00:28:27.839 system for GPS was put incrementally in place, 00:28:27.940 --> 00:28:30.160 the technology was developed, and now we take 00:28:30.160 --> 00:28:32.539 GPS for granted. It's like a utility we don't 00:28:32.539 --> 00:28:37.000 have to pay for, right? And it has created all 00:28:37.000 --> 00:28:39.920 these opportunities and applications that we 00:28:39.920 --> 00:28:42.220 could have scarcely envisioned in 1960, right? 00:28:42.220 --> 00:28:46.579 Can you imagine thinking about Uber or all these 00:28:46.579 --> 00:28:49.059 other similar services that have been enabled 00:28:49.059 --> 00:28:53.779 by GPS, just even conceiving of the concept of 00:28:53.779 --> 00:28:58.009 1960 would have been totally alien. So that's 00:28:58.009 --> 00:29:02.210 one way that it could progress. And I think that's 00:29:02.210 --> 00:29:04.549 one thing to keep in mind is like, we're not 00:29:04.549 --> 00:29:08.750 sure exactly how this could unfold, like what 00:29:08.750 --> 00:29:12.930 might open up and what opportunities might be 00:29:12.930 --> 00:29:16.910 there. If you look at GPS, pretty soon afterwards, 00:29:17.089 --> 00:29:19.730 like the Russians did GLONASS because they saw 00:29:19.730 --> 00:29:22.049 the value of it. And now pretty much every country 00:29:22.049 --> 00:29:25.599 in the world doesn't want to be beholden to the 00:29:25.599 --> 00:29:28.160 US GPS system, right? We've got the Europeans 00:29:28.160 --> 00:29:34.119 doing Galileo, the Chinese have Baidu, the Japanese 00:29:34.119 --> 00:29:36.819 have their own system. Other countries recognize 00:29:36.819 --> 00:29:40.180 the value of this and want to be able to do it 00:29:40.180 --> 00:29:45.660 for themselves. Okay, very good. Well we have, 00:29:45.680 --> 00:29:48.480 we've gone on quite a while here so we're going 00:29:48.480 --> 00:29:52.019 to take a break but fascinating information so 00:29:52.019 --> 00:29:54.680 we'll be back with Paul and we'll talk more about 00:29:54.680 --> 00:29:57.640 this and we'll take some of your questions. We 00:29:57.640 --> 00:30:01.119 are getting a few here online on Twitter and 00:30:01.119 --> 00:30:04.099 on the comments but if you want to give us a 00:30:04.099 --> 00:30:07.039 call let me give you that number again. It's 00:30:07.039 --> 00:30:14.759 859 9827373. So we'll come back and we'll take 00:30:14.759 --> 00:30:17.519 your calls and your questions and your tweets 00:30:17.519 --> 00:30:20.539 with Paul right after this word from ICOM America 00:30:20.539 --> 00:30:25.319 right here on HamTalk Live. Get out and be active 00:30:25.319 --> 00:30:30.140 with ICOM's new IC705 and its optional multifunction 00:30:30.140 --> 00:30:34.220 backpack. The IC705 is your perfect QRP companion 00:30:34.220 --> 00:30:37.259 as you have base station features and functionality 00:30:37.259 --> 00:30:40.240 at the tip of your fingers in a portable package 00:30:40.240 --> 00:30:43.839 covering HF 6 meters, 2 meters, and 70 centimeters. 00:30:44.059 --> 00:30:47.279 This compact rig weighs in at 1 kilogram or just 00:30:47.279 --> 00:30:50.920 over 2 pounds with RF direct sampling for most 00:30:50.920 --> 00:30:53.880 of the HF band and IF sampling for frequencies 00:30:53.880 --> 00:30:57.640 above 25 megahertz and a large 4 .3 inch color 00:30:57.640 --> 00:31:00.339 touchscreen with live band scope and waterfall. 00:31:00.359 --> 00:31:03.339 It runs 5 watts with a battery, 10 watts with 00:31:03.339 --> 00:31:07.160 a power supply. It has sideband, CW, AM, FM, 00:31:07.440 --> 00:31:10.920 and full D -star functions, a micro USB connector, 00:31:11.119 --> 00:31:15.079 Bluetooth, wireless LAN, micro SD card slot, 00:31:15.460 --> 00:31:19.119 integrated GPS with antenna and GPS logger, and 00:31:19.119 --> 00:31:22.460 the speaker mic comes standard and supports QRP 00:31:22.460 --> 00:31:26.279 operations. The perfect accessory for your IC705 00:31:26.279 --> 00:31:30.680 is the optional backpack, LC192. with a special 00:31:30.680 --> 00:31:34.559 compartment for your IC -705 and room for accessories 00:31:34.559 --> 00:31:38.359 for soda activations or just a day in the park. 00:31:38.759 --> 00:31:42.380 Visit icomamerica .com slash amateur for more 00:31:42.380 --> 00:31:46.799 information about ICOM radios. Join the conversation. 00:31:47.160 --> 00:31:53.420 Give us a call at 859 -982 -7373. Again, the 00:31:53.420 --> 00:31:59.630 number to call is 859 -982 -7373. Or, if you'd 00:31:59.630 --> 00:32:02.890 rather type than talk, tweet us at HamTalk Live. 00:32:03.329 --> 00:32:06.769 Now, here's Neil Rapp with more HamTalk Live. 00:32:08.329 --> 00:32:11.470 Sorry for the delay. Your host, Neil Rapp, is 00:32:11.470 --> 00:32:14.589 reading a book on antigravity and he just can't 00:32:14.589 --> 00:32:33.829 put it down. Now, here's more HamTalk Live. Welcome 00:32:33.829 --> 00:32:37.430 back to HamTalk Live thanks to ICOM America. 00:32:38.269 --> 00:32:41.309 For sponsoring the show, check them out at icomamerica 00:32:41.309 --> 00:32:45.490 .com slash amateur. And check us out on Facebook, 00:32:45.630 --> 00:32:49.430 Twitter, and Instagram, HamTalk Live, on all 00:32:49.430 --> 00:32:51.809 of those. And we're on the air every Thursday 00:32:51.809 --> 00:32:56.390 night, 9 p .m. Eastern time at hamtalklive .com. 00:32:56.869 --> 00:32:58.630 It's time for your phone calls now. If you have 00:32:58.630 --> 00:33:05.529 a question for Paul, Give us a call at 859 -982 00:33:05.529 --> 00:33:10.390 -7373 or you can tweet us. It's at HamTalk Live 00:33:10.390 --> 00:33:13.490 on Twitter and if you're listening to us on WTWW 00:33:13.490 --> 00:33:16.849 or the podcast edition, you won't be able to 00:33:16.849 --> 00:33:22.190 reach us live since Thursday night and we won't 00:33:22.190 --> 00:33:26.940 be there. We'll get back to Paul here in just 00:33:26.940 --> 00:33:31.220 a second. We do have a tweet or two, but Jacob 00:33:31.220 --> 00:33:35.339 is on the line here this evening. So, Jacob, 00:33:35.359 --> 00:33:41.539 what's your question for Paul? Yeah, my question 00:33:41.539 --> 00:33:45.660 is what is the methodology he will be using in 00:33:45.660 --> 00:33:49.119 the design of experiments and what, how many 00:33:49.119 --> 00:33:51.200 factors are there involved in his experiments? 00:33:53.359 --> 00:33:55.380 Jacob thanks for the question. Yeah, there's 00:33:55.380 --> 00:33:59.660 quite a lot right so one of the challenges For 00:33:59.660 --> 00:34:02.079 the idea of space solar is because there are 00:34:02.079 --> 00:34:04.160 so many different ways that it could be done 00:34:04.160 --> 00:34:07.980 There's quite a few options on the technologies 00:34:07.980 --> 00:34:13.420 to be pursued I'll mention In terms of power 00:34:13.420 --> 00:34:16.119 being so yes, so at the end of the day the satellite 00:34:16.119 --> 00:34:18.099 has to do two things It has to collect the energy 00:34:18.099 --> 00:34:21.880 and it has to send the energy wirelessly to wherever 00:34:21.880 --> 00:34:26.070 is needed So for the experiment on the X -37, 00:34:26.869 --> 00:34:29.949 we're measuring the conversion efficiency, the 00:34:29.949 --> 00:34:33.289 temperature performance, and various telemetry 00:34:33.289 --> 00:34:35.690 points that'll help give us a fuller picture 00:34:35.690 --> 00:34:39.070 of that. We have also been doing work in power 00:34:39.070 --> 00:34:41.849 beaming in other parts of the spectrum. Last 00:34:41.849 --> 00:34:45.750 year we did a power beaming demonstration using 00:34:45.750 --> 00:34:48.789 lasers where we sent hundreds of watts over hundreds 00:34:48.789 --> 00:34:51.760 of meters and for any of the Previous work and 00:34:51.760 --> 00:34:54.059 I'm making reference to if your listeners would 00:34:54.059 --> 00:34:57.659 like to learn more The NAFO research lab has 00:34:57.659 --> 00:34:59.460 done a number of press releases on these and 00:34:59.460 --> 00:35:01.920 it has a YouTube channel that has videos that 00:35:01.920 --> 00:35:04.960 show Jessica Muir on the space station doing 00:35:04.960 --> 00:35:08.360 the proctenna demonstration and also this laser 00:35:08.360 --> 00:35:11.179 one that I'm talking about in terms of different 00:35:11.179 --> 00:35:15.099 parameters That we are interested in for experiments. 00:35:15.179 --> 00:35:17.719 There's quite a few for power beaming alone. 00:35:17.739 --> 00:35:21.630 We've identified 15 different metrics and figures 00:35:21.630 --> 00:35:24.170 of merit that we would look at and they include 00:35:24.170 --> 00:35:27.190 things like the input power to the transmitter, 00:35:27.289 --> 00:35:29.250 the output power from the receiver, which you 00:35:29.250 --> 00:35:31.150 can then use to find the end -to -end efficiency, 00:35:31.210 --> 00:35:33.929 which is important for a lot of these things. 00:35:33.969 --> 00:35:36.789 The mass of either the transmitter or the receiver 00:35:36.789 --> 00:35:41.469 could be of importance. The volume that they 00:35:41.469 --> 00:35:44.789 take up. These are all different things that 00:35:44.789 --> 00:35:48.409 are of interest for a given implementation. Does 00:35:48.409 --> 00:35:50.429 that sort of get at what you're asking about? 00:35:52.550 --> 00:35:57.630 Yeah, I mean, this isn't like a 15 factorial 00:35:57.630 --> 00:36:01.489 design experiment, is it? Oh, no. The one that 00:36:01.489 --> 00:36:05.710 we have in orbit right now is quite straightforward. 00:36:05.949 --> 00:36:08.909 We're measuring efficiency and temperature performance 00:36:08.909 --> 00:36:14.210 at a number of different points. And we've tested 00:36:14.210 --> 00:36:16.449 it on the ground, we've done simulations, there's 00:36:16.449 --> 00:36:18.730 no substitute really for testing something in 00:36:18.730 --> 00:36:22.690 space because of the illumination and temperature 00:36:22.690 --> 00:36:26.570 and radiation environments. So we're gonna learn, 00:36:26.730 --> 00:36:29.230 no matter what happens, we are likely to learn 00:36:29.230 --> 00:36:34.349 a lot. And it's not, because it's an engineering 00:36:34.349 --> 00:36:37.099 experiment rather than... One where we're trying 00:36:37.099 --> 00:36:39.300 to just isolate a single variable like you might 00:36:39.300 --> 00:36:46.019 do in biology or a more I should say a less applied 00:36:46.019 --> 00:36:49.760 science. There's less concern about confounding 00:36:49.760 --> 00:36:52.559 the results by having a range of variables But 00:36:52.559 --> 00:36:54.639 the hardware is fixed right we can change some 00:36:54.639 --> 00:36:57.400 of the settings depending on where we are in 00:36:57.400 --> 00:37:00.780 the orbit and the like but but for the most part 00:37:00.780 --> 00:37:04.119 will be Running it in a relatively standard configuration 00:37:06.929 --> 00:37:09.989 Alright, thanks Neil. Great show. Very fascinating 00:37:09.989 --> 00:37:13.809 topic. Oh, thank you very much and thank you, 00:37:13.809 --> 00:37:18.369 Jacob, for calling in. We appreciate it. Alright, 00:37:18.409 --> 00:37:22.289 bye. Bye -bye. And if you'd like to call in, 00:37:22.349 --> 00:37:29.739 the number is 859 -982 -7373. Take some more 00:37:29.739 --> 00:37:37.099 calls here as those come in. 859 -982 -7373. 00:37:37.599 --> 00:37:42.679 We've got a tweet that came in from Greg, KM5GT. 00:37:42.699 --> 00:37:46.219 Let's get to that one. Greg says, a question 00:37:46.219 --> 00:37:49.760 for Paul. Is there a danger of this technology 00:37:49.760 --> 00:37:53.639 being weaponized? If so, what precautions can 00:37:53.639 --> 00:37:56.159 be put in place? So yeah, here's the question. 00:37:56.409 --> 00:38:01.530 All of us scientists never want to hear but And 00:38:01.530 --> 00:38:04.389 yet it comes up with great frequency, yeah, it 00:38:04.389 --> 00:38:08.949 actually so probably the question I get The most 00:38:08.949 --> 00:38:11.670 out of the gate is is this gonna fry birds? So 00:38:11.670 --> 00:38:17.969 I think this is That's kind of like the astronaut 00:38:17.969 --> 00:38:21.610 thing, how do you go to the bathroom? That's 00:38:21.610 --> 00:38:26.239 the question is is this gonna fry birds? Right. 00:38:27.099 --> 00:38:31.139 Yeah, this is definitely the most common one, 00:38:31.760 --> 00:38:36.159 I think. So it gets back to the idea of power 00:38:36.159 --> 00:38:39.599 density, right? If you go outside on a sunny 00:38:39.599 --> 00:38:42.460 day, you can do that without fear of bursting 00:38:42.460 --> 00:38:45.969 into flame. However, if you on that exact same 00:38:45.969 --> 00:38:48.269 day go outside with a large magnifying glass, 00:38:48.269 --> 00:38:51.289 or even not that large, and you position it carefully, 00:38:51.449 --> 00:38:54.769 you can set things on fire not because you increased 00:38:54.769 --> 00:38:57.630 the amount of energy, but because you focused 00:38:57.630 --> 00:39:01.050 the energy into a smaller area. And this is power 00:39:01.050 --> 00:39:04.349 density, amount watts per square meter, if you 00:39:04.349 --> 00:39:09.750 will. So for space solar, you can design and 00:39:09.750 --> 00:39:12.869 implement a system that will be unable to produce 00:39:13.000 --> 00:39:16.099 a power density that will exceed a given threshold, 00:39:16.219 --> 00:39:21.599 which you can select guided by the IEEE or ICNR 00:39:21.599 --> 00:39:25.179 safety thresholds for microwave power density 00:39:25.179 --> 00:39:28.539 or for laser power density or for whatever area 00:39:28.539 --> 00:39:30.960 of the spectrum that you might choose. And it's 00:39:30.960 --> 00:39:34.159 worth noting that in the case of radio waves 00:39:34.159 --> 00:39:36.940 and microwaves, they are much harder to focus, 00:39:36.980 --> 00:39:39.380 right? Like if you put a magnifying glass next 00:39:39.380 --> 00:39:41.539 to your Wi -Fi router, You're not going to set 00:39:41.539 --> 00:39:45.019 anything on fire for a couple reasons. We hope. 00:39:46.679 --> 00:39:49.420 If you can, you should study carefully what's 00:39:49.420 --> 00:39:51.539 going on because you may have some astounding 00:39:51.539 --> 00:39:55.219 breakthrough. But because for microwaves, the 00:39:55.219 --> 00:39:58.239 wavelength is so much longer than for sunlight, 00:39:58.280 --> 00:40:01.840 like I used in the example there, it's much more 00:40:01.840 --> 00:40:04.619 difficult to focus and to get to high levels 00:40:04.619 --> 00:40:08.469 of power density. Requires even more stupendously 00:40:08.469 --> 00:40:10.389 large apertures than we've already been talking 00:40:10.389 --> 00:40:15.130 about so the risk of danger or weaponization 00:40:15.130 --> 00:40:20.969 for Microwave is very small and for laser. It's 00:40:20.969 --> 00:40:25.630 probably more significant, but it's still remote 00:40:25.630 --> 00:40:29.570 I would say in part because Lasers don't go as 00:40:29.570 --> 00:40:32.070 well through the atmosphere like a Weapon that 00:40:32.070 --> 00:40:34.510 you can only use if it's not cloudy is gonna 00:40:34.510 --> 00:40:39.110 be probably of limited military interest and 00:40:39.110 --> 00:40:43.429 There's a variety of big challenges. So there's 00:40:43.429 --> 00:40:48.610 no doubt that any tool has the capability of 00:40:48.610 --> 00:40:50.789 Being weaponized. I mean you're the fork that 00:40:50.789 --> 00:40:52.889 you used to eat dinner with you could injure 00:40:52.889 --> 00:40:55.570 someone with if you use it in a inappropriate 00:40:55.570 --> 00:40:58.750 way uh... but solar power satellites would be 00:40:58.750 --> 00:41:03.329 extraordinarily difficult to weaponize and all 00:41:03.329 --> 00:41:07.110 of the important aspects that might lead you 00:41:07.110 --> 00:41:10.190 to evaluate whether it could be weaponized are 00:41:10.190 --> 00:41:14.030 going to be in pretty plain sight answer that 00:41:14.030 --> 00:41:18.429 question yeah i think so and uh... along the 00:41:18.429 --> 00:41:23.650 same lines john w four u s f says he came in 00:41:23.650 --> 00:41:27.530 late to the broadcast, but is there any concern 00:41:27.530 --> 00:41:32.269 with somebody hacking into this in outer space 00:41:32.269 --> 00:41:35.849 and hacking into the energy and stealing the 00:41:35.849 --> 00:41:39.409 energy from other countries or other companies? 00:41:41.370 --> 00:41:44.690 Cybersecurity, I think pervades all of our systems 00:41:44.690 --> 00:41:47.409 at this point whether it's a power plant on the 00:41:47.409 --> 00:41:51.650 ground or a satellite in space So attention needs 00:41:51.650 --> 00:41:55.869 to be paid to it. No doubt stealing the energy 00:41:55.869 --> 00:41:59.769 I think is probably less of a concern if you've 00:41:59.769 --> 00:42:02.909 secured the satellite like you could I suppose 00:42:02.909 --> 00:42:05.710 in theory if you were able to hack into any satellite 00:42:05.710 --> 00:42:09.099 You could reposition it or repoint it Most of 00:42:09.099 --> 00:42:13.340 the concepts for the power beaming are more complex 00:42:13.340 --> 00:42:17.179 than that. Unlike a communication satellite or 00:42:17.179 --> 00:42:18.699 an observation satellite where you can just kind 00:42:18.699 --> 00:42:20.900 of repoint it and the signal goes somewhere else. 00:42:21.500 --> 00:42:24.900 For microwave power transmission and also for 00:42:24.900 --> 00:42:28.000 a number of the laser implementations, you have 00:42:28.000 --> 00:42:31.159 a beacon on the ground called a pilot signal 00:42:31.159 --> 00:42:35.289 that sends that signal up to the spacecraft and 00:42:35.289 --> 00:42:38.170 the spacecraft uses that pilot signal to actually 00:42:38.170 --> 00:42:42.929 steer the beam. And that is an opportunity for 00:42:42.929 --> 00:42:45.929 encryption right there. So it would be challenging 00:42:45.929 --> 00:42:49.989 to spoof. And if the satellite didn't see the 00:42:49.989 --> 00:42:54.650 beacon, the power would not be directed to the 00:42:54.650 --> 00:42:59.190 receiver. So there's... No question that any 00:42:59.190 --> 00:43:02.289 complex system that uses hardware and software 00:43:02.289 --> 00:43:06.690 needs to be concerned with cyber security, but 00:43:06.690 --> 00:43:09.550 the considerations for solar power satellites 00:43:09.550 --> 00:43:12.110 are no greater, I think, than any other system. 00:43:13.630 --> 00:43:18.630 Okay, very good. 859 -982 -7373 is the phone 00:43:18.630 --> 00:43:21.630 number if you'd like to call in. We have just 00:43:21.630 --> 00:43:24.210 a few minutes remaining, so if you want to give 00:43:24.210 --> 00:43:30.369 us a call. It's 859 -982 -7373 and you need to 00:43:30.369 --> 00:43:34.070 be doing that now because we're just about out 00:43:34.070 --> 00:43:37.570 of time here for the show this evening. My guest 00:43:37.570 --> 00:43:46.809 is Dr. Paul Jaffe, KJ4IKI from the Naval Research 00:43:46.809 --> 00:43:50.130 Laboratory and we're talking a little bit about 00:43:50.130 --> 00:43:54.670 this. collecting solar power in space and beaming 00:43:54.670 --> 00:43:57.730 it back. You brought up at the beginning of the 00:43:57.730 --> 00:44:03.530 show Isaac Asimov and talking about it way back 00:44:03.530 --> 00:44:07.190 in some of his novels and that kind of thing. 00:44:08.030 --> 00:44:11.989 But the thing that came up that I remembered 00:44:11.989 --> 00:44:16.469 was when I was younger, I played SimCity like 00:44:16.469 --> 00:44:19.429 crazy. I don't know if any of the listeners played 00:44:19.429 --> 00:44:22.619 SimCity or not. Whenever you built your city 00:44:22.619 --> 00:44:24.780 on this computer game, you had all these different 00:44:24.780 --> 00:44:27.820 power sources and so you can pick hydroelectric 00:44:27.820 --> 00:44:30.980 and you had coal and gas and all these different 00:44:30.980 --> 00:44:35.079 things and solar and, you know, as in real life, 00:44:35.300 --> 00:44:37.679 there are pros and cons to each one. And so, 00:44:37.880 --> 00:44:39.880 you know, some of them are going to pollute more 00:44:39.880 --> 00:44:41.900 and some of them are going to be more cost efficient 00:44:41.900 --> 00:44:44.280 and that kind of thing. But, but when you got 00:44:44.280 --> 00:44:47.380 to like the year 3000 or something, you got this 00:44:47.380 --> 00:44:50.550 big. this huge satellite dish. It looked like 00:44:50.550 --> 00:44:53.150 one of those great big, you know, C -band dishes 00:44:53.150 --> 00:44:55.809 back in the day and it's pointed straight up 00:44:55.809 --> 00:44:59.710 and if something went wrong, it's like, you know, 00:44:59.769 --> 00:45:01.989 the beam was off a little bit and all of a sudden 00:45:01.989 --> 00:45:04.590 you burned up this part of the city. I mean, 00:45:05.610 --> 00:45:10.349 I know you said you can't fry birds but is that 00:45:10.349 --> 00:45:13.150 kind of what we're looking at down the road? 00:45:14.880 --> 00:45:18.260 Yeah, I think the the retro directive beam control 00:45:18.260 --> 00:45:21.260 will go a long way to preventing the beam from 00:45:21.260 --> 00:45:24.099 wandering around the countryside as my colleague 00:45:24.099 --> 00:45:27.719 Dick Dickinson likes to put it but yeah, that's 00:45:27.719 --> 00:45:30.739 definitely a memorable image from Sin City and 00:45:30.739 --> 00:45:33.659 I've seen I haven't got to that part of the game 00:45:33.659 --> 00:45:36.960 myself but back in the day but definitely I've 00:45:36.960 --> 00:45:38.900 seen the screenshots of what you're talking about 00:45:38.900 --> 00:45:44.880 and it is I think maybe one source of some of 00:45:44.880 --> 00:45:48.679 the safety concerns that are raised about this. 00:45:50.340 --> 00:45:52.079 Yeah. We don't, we don't need a movie like the 00:45:52.079 --> 00:45:55.920 China syndrome to, you know, to inspire fear 00:45:55.920 --> 00:45:59.139 and nuclear power. We don't, we don't need that. 00:46:00.559 --> 00:46:02.219 Yeah. Well, there was, I think there was a James 00:46:02.219 --> 00:46:06.179 Bond film also that had a beam from space and 00:46:06.179 --> 00:46:09.630 some of the, uh, Maybe even in Akira, I think 00:46:09.630 --> 00:46:12.630 there was something like that. So yeah, science 00:46:12.630 --> 00:46:15.449 fiction, of course, has to look for points of 00:46:15.449 --> 00:46:20.309 conflict to introduce and you can invent them 00:46:20.309 --> 00:46:24.650 wherever you would like. Yeah, there we go. All 00:46:24.650 --> 00:46:27.769 right. Well, let me we're actually a little over 00:46:27.769 --> 00:46:31.230 time here. So let me check and make sure we've 00:46:31.230 --> 00:46:34.130 addressed all the questions out there that have 00:46:34.130 --> 00:46:37.969 been typed in. And we got our phone calls tonight. 00:46:37.969 --> 00:46:42.449 So that was great. Thank you for calling in Jacob 00:46:42.449 --> 00:46:46.829 and Chiming in and I think we I think we've caught 00:46:46.829 --> 00:46:51.630 up with all the questions. So Paul I'll let you 00:46:51.630 --> 00:46:54.630 make any final remarks that you'd like and and 00:46:54.630 --> 00:46:58.289 then we'll let you get going Great. Yeah. No, 00:46:58.530 --> 00:47:00.170 like I said, I really appreciate the opportunity. 00:47:00.170 --> 00:47:04.489 I am glad to speak to an audience of hams because 00:47:04.489 --> 00:47:07.550 I feel like they get the Technology a little 00:47:07.550 --> 00:47:09.530 bit more and they understand some of the subtleties. 00:47:09.730 --> 00:47:12.769 We didn't discuss too much about spectrum, which 00:47:12.769 --> 00:47:16.710 is another important thing to consider for this 00:47:16.710 --> 00:47:20.349 since as we all know the If you're going to be 00:47:20.349 --> 00:47:22.809 sending radio waves or electromagnetic radiation 00:47:22.809 --> 00:47:24.349 It's going to reside somewhere in the spectrum 00:47:24.349 --> 00:47:27.369 and that has to be account for but I would just 00:47:27.369 --> 00:47:30.679 ask For folks that are interested in this to 00:47:30.679 --> 00:47:33.639 go ahead and and take a look at nrl's website. 00:47:33.659 --> 00:47:39.000 It's just nrl dot Navy dot mill November Romeo 00:47:39.000 --> 00:47:44.119 Lima and dot Navy dot mill and Yeah, we have 00:47:44.119 --> 00:47:47.940 a lot of videos a lot of things that can Inform 00:47:47.940 --> 00:47:50.079 folks about what we've been up to and where we're 00:47:50.079 --> 00:47:53.000 planning to go So watch this space as we start 00:47:53.000 --> 00:47:56.400 to get results. I'm hopeful that We will have 00:47:56.400 --> 00:48:01.670 more to report Very good. Well, that's really 00:48:01.670 --> 00:48:06.590 cool. And it's cool that you got the LED up there 00:48:06.590 --> 00:48:09.849 on the space station to demonstrate that. That's 00:48:09.849 --> 00:48:13.389 a great way to accomplish some education there 00:48:13.389 --> 00:48:17.869 on the antennas. And I really like that idea. 00:48:18.269 --> 00:48:21.769 So good job on that and the whole thing. So best 00:48:21.769 --> 00:48:28.320 of luck with the research. If you find some startling 00:48:28.320 --> 00:48:31.559 facts, get back with us. We want to hear about 00:48:31.559 --> 00:48:36.860 that. Great. Thank you, Neil. All right. That 00:48:36.860 --> 00:48:40.519 is a wrap for this week's edition of HamTalk 00:48:40.519 --> 00:48:45.000 Live. Thanks to my guest, Dr. Paul Jaffe, KJ4IKI. 00:48:45.280 --> 00:48:48.940 and everybody out there in cyberspace for listening 00:48:48.940 --> 00:48:51.920 and calling in and typing in and invite you back 00:48:51.920 --> 00:48:55.739 next thursday night 9 pm eastern time and for 00:48:55.739 --> 00:49:00.159 a list of all of our upcoming guests visit hamtalklive 00:49:00.159 --> 00:49:03.199 .com and if you like the show please leave us 00:49:03.199 --> 00:49:06.739 a review that helps others find us faster so 00:49:06.739 --> 00:49:11.300 for now this is neil wrapp wb9vpg Sing 7 -3, 00:49:11.639 --> 00:49:17.000 7 -5, and, as always, may the good DX be yours!