Thanks for tuning in. Hamtalk Live will be on
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ICOM radios. Good evening, everyone. It's time
for HamTalk Live episode number two, two, nine.
The number stations recorded live on Thursday,
September 24th, 2020. I'm your host, Neil Rapp,
WB9VPG. Thanks for tuning in to this episode
of HamTalk Live. Tonight, we're joined all the
way from Latvia. We have Maris Goldmanis. and
we'll take your calls in just a few minutes.
Last week here on the show, Frank Bauer, KA3
HDO, Lou McFadden, W5 DID, and Kerry Banky, N6IZW
were here to talk about the new radio system.
on the International Space Station. If you missed
that show, you can listen anytime at HamTalkLive
.com or on your favorite podcast app or on YouTube,
or you can catch the rebroadcast of this show
on WTWW 5085 AM. And that's on Saturday afternoons
at about 3 .30 PM Eastern time. So I hope you
have some questions tonight. You can tweet those
in or give us a call. I'll give you the phone
number here in just a minute so you can write
it down or stick it in your phone and have it
ready to go. But if you're listening to us live
on Thursday night. you'll be able to give us
a call after the interview and It's not time
to call just yet. We're going to talk to Manus
a little bit But the number to call when you're
when we're ready here is eight five nine nine
eight two seventy three seventy three 8 5 9 9
8 2 73 73 and again you can tweet us if you'd
rather type than than talk the Twitter handle
is at ham talk live and if you're listening on
speaker you can type a comment in and We'll be
checking those throughout the evening. Um, a
couple of announcements here, uh, before we get
started, uh, the Nashua area radio society, QSO
party is this weekend. So we talked about that
on the show, uh, last week, uh, that's at in
one F D .org for more information about that.
But, uh, if you have time this weekend, get on
the air and participate in their, uh, QSO party.
And there's a lot of, uh, A lot of QSO parties
and contests coming up in the next three or four
weeks, so check that one out at n1fd .org. Also,
I'm sad to announce that we've lost a friend
of the show. My cousin, Doug Hayes, K9JJS from
Mount Vernon, Illinois, became a silent key on
Tuesday morning. Doug was my inspiration to building
computers and he spent a lot of time on fast
scan television and satellites back in the day.
And Doug, we're going to miss you. Well, I'll
be back with Maris and we'll talk about these
number stations right after this word from ICOM
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Five out of four people have trouble with fractions.
Now, here's Neil Rapp with more HamTalk Live.
Welcome back to HamTalk Live. Thanks to ICOM
for sponsoring the show. Check them out at icomamerica
.com slash amateur and that new IC 705. Tonight
we have with us from Latvia Maris Goldmanis and
he's with the Numbers Stations Research and Information
Center, a project that is dedicated to the research,
monitoring, information gathering and publishing
about numbers, stations, military stations, and
other shortwave radio phenomenon. And their website
is at numbers dash stations .com. And he, along
with Ryan Schaum, uh, from here in the U S, uh,
manage that site and that program. And they have
people all around the world. uh, participating
in this, but, uh, Maris was kind enough to, to
get up at three in the morning to, uh, to be
with us. So, uh, good morning. Good morning.
Yes. It's, uh, it's great to have you on and
you're one of the few that have been on the show
that has not been a ham radio operator, but we're
here to talk about some. um high frequency stations
and some some that a lot of ham radio operators
have heard and have been fascinated by and that's
these numbers stations and when hams are tuning
across the hf bands um and usually outside of
the amateur radio bands will run into something
that that kind of sounds like this so let me
play this little clip here And it's just, it's
just numbers over and over and over again. And
these, these stations called number stations
can be found several places. We'll talk about
that in a little bit, but, but first, what is
the purpose of just transmitting a whole bunch
of numbers? Well, according to the popular opinion,
the popular view, the people used to say it was
used by spy agencies. The same code messages
the spies abroad. Well, this opinion, this spy
station is confirmed by documents from declassified
archives that are well sent over I'm sorry, let
me start again because it's my first time live
on the radio. So first of all, the documents
from Latvia, from France, from USA, like FBI,
like AGB and so on, they confirm that these stations
were used in past by spies. and they are used
also now they are very many court events about
espionage that show that they are used as one
sided messages for spies from radio center that
sends these code messages. These messages are
sent once to the spy, and the spy must decode
them and reply by other means. So they are not
like two -sided comms that come radio, they are
one -sided comms, one -sided messages. Another
thing which you hear, the number station is a
military station sometimes. You hear them mostly
partially military, who very much uses the webcam
radio bands for that. But it's very correct to
say that they are spy stations. They are used
by spies, not by the military. Okay. So, so they're
sending out messages and they're coding these
with just a bunch of numbers. And so nobody knows,
uh, what the numbers really mean unless you can
decode those. And somehow they're, they're sending
out a message for, for some purpose. And, and
unless you can break the code, you really don't
know what what's going on. That is correct because
it's a one -time pad. It's a very sophisticated
thing. It's a very complex thing. The spy must
have always been responsible for the code book,
the codes, the coding. Because the counter -intelligence
could be watching him sometimes. Well, if they
catch him, if they catch, if they hold him. But
there's no other way to get those codes. without
getting those code books that are very small,
very often very small, kept in some hidden somewhere
in a spy's house or in the computers because
the simple person will not get hold of them.
But counter -intelligence officials, they must
get hold of them. But it's a very, it's a rare
thing to do to get these codes. Yeah. I would,
I would imagine so. And, and, you know, trying
to, uh, to get the coded messages through, which,
which is something, um, we're not allowed to
do on ham radio. We have, we have, uh, Morse
code and those kinds of things, but But it has
to be something that everyone can decode. It
has to be a standard code, but, uh, these people
are purposely sending coded messages about something
and, uh, we, we don't often know what. the purpose
is. Where would on the bands, what frequencies
would you usually find these kinds of number
stations on and is there a list? Is there a database
that has a catalog of all of these stations that
you can listen to? Well our site has a large
database of these. recordings are forced. We
have a schedule, a prediction of where could
be the next station. There are many sites, like
our site, that have these frequencies and other
bases. There are some stations that come. In
our site there is Enigma 2000. There are some
priorities and all. There is pre or morgue. Now
these sites have some predictions and profiles
of these stations. But the number of stations
particularly change the frequencies very often.
Well, every month they change the frequencies
because of the operation, because they do this.
But the military stations, for instance, they
often don't change the frequencies. You may have
heard of PIP, such thing that the Russian beacon
that were broadcast on 3 .75 megahertz every
night. They send their PIP, PIP, PIP in 80 meter
handband all night and people just know that.
very famous buzzer, 4, 6, 5 MHz. They also change
the frequencies, but for the most part, the number
stations from the intelligence agencies, they
always change their frequencies at least a month.
Not sure months, but as I mentioned, the number
of stations come, there are more than 1000 people
can find very much information about the frequency
of these stations. Is there a particular band
that you hear them more often on, or do the bands
just totally change too? Well, for the number
stations, they are heard pretty much all over
the band. Well, of course, they choose the frequencies
because of their needs, because they need to
send the signal to Russia. Russia needs to signal.
Yes, they pick the frequencies by the propagation,
by the reception. The Russian military, the Russian
military, they mostly use frequencies between
4 ,000 megahertz to 8 megahertz. very much you
can hear russians in well between 3 mhz and russian
military the US military is very famous for using
these emergency action messages that are like
you may call skykings and so on they are very
many known frequencies across the band But I
would say that the dammer stations don't use
that much. At home radio bands, they tend to
use more between the bands, because also sometimes
you may hear the sound of the crane. they send
their broadcasts and radio bands and sometimes
people who are like on the... it's not jumping,
it's not jumping these broadcasts. These broadcasts
usually go on for some five minutes or ten minutes.
So for some radio it's not really... Well, a
big problem, because sometimes they can send
radars or they can send some more, but a number
of stations are not such a big problem for cum
radio interference, as much cum radio trolls
or some illegal stations. From Eritrea there
is a station that uses a radio band, a vocal
station, and so on. But they have, well, if you
scan all the radio bands, not just the radio
bands, but all the spectrum between her, between
one to... Okay. So, you know, so in that way,
it is a lot like ham radio is you pick a band
to get to where you want to go, uh, at the time
of day. And so they're, they're doing the propagation
thing, just like the ham radio operators are.
If I wanted You know, if I want to talk to Europe
at a certain time of day, I'm going to pick a
certain band to do that. And so they're just
kind of doing the same thing. They, they just
hop wherever they, they want to go. And, and
I imagine they stay out of the ham bands because
they, they want to kind of not be noticed and
kind of, you know, not draw a whole lot of attention
where Uh, a lot of these over the horizon radars
and that kind of thing will, you know, interfere
with the ham band because they're just, they're
just sending out a signal so they can get it
back and, and do the radar with it. And like
the, uh, the old Russian woodpecker, uh, that
would come on, you know, you'd be transmitting
and talking to somebody. And then as soon as
you go back to receive, here's this, here's this
woodpecker noise going on. Uh, So, you know,
it's, it's a little different than that. They
want to not be noticed. here in the field by
Hank who was saying, go away, go away. And the
person must, for the most part, the demo stations
right now, they are repeated three times. If
there's traffic, there's an actual message there.
It's not zero, zero, zero. You have to transmit
this message three times on three frequencies,
one after one. And so a person must sit them
down. With your merchant, such a person who is
very nervous, his watch maybe, he must sit this
down. And you are on the same frequency. I recall
such things. In radio, someone says, you are
on the same frequency. So usually... There is
a tree with three broadcasts. And so, just once,
they could use a radio band. Most part it's a
radio band that is on 14 megahertz, very often
used by number stations. There was a crane that
got sent the broadcasts. If they're trying to,
if they're trying to not be noticed and everything,
why? with all the direction, finding equipment
and, and, you know, people doing transmitter
hunts and, and being able to track down transmitter.
Why, you know, isn't that kind of risky for somebody
that's a spy station to just be sending out a
high powered radio signal and, you know, somebody
can track it down. What's the, what's to keep
somebody from, from tracking them down? Well,
it's, um, you know, in, um, there it was. There
was a story in the 80s, when there were still
CIA stations from the US. There was this... That
is like a valentine station. A valentine CIA
train, a CIA station, sending messages. four
-digit messages to to to to to America and there
were some people who actually took it down well
that's another thing that signals a valentine
of course no one said nothing officially but
you must understand why why why i said about
valentine because all the caa all the russians
the chinese whoever said could use these stations
they use They use not simple transmitters, small
transmitters. Their sites are covered. Their
sites are very secret. But then again, if you
track the signal, tracking the signal from a
number station does not do you no good for counter
-intelligence, because you may track the source
of the signal, but you cannot track the... without
the signal because you may know how the range
or the range of the signal you may understand
the signal goes to Moscow, the signal goes to
what the Russians only see, but you cannot really
understand by the action finding where is it,
what radio, what lessons to it. So it's like
you must... you must do some other things to
actually find that person who essence to the
station, the purpose to decode it. Because Russians,
the Soviets during the KG, during the Cold War
knew where are those stations, where are those
transmitters in Germany, send those signals to
Moscow. But they, but they must find some other
ways to find that person who actually listens
to them by, by, by purpose. And what about all
the, you know, the digital technology and encryption?
Why are they, why are they, why are they still
using this numbers and why aren't they just using
a lot of this, this digital, um, uh, encryption?
Well, It's more about capabilities and needs
and additions of the agency, the country that
uses them. Because, of course, the CIA and MI6
and France and Western Germany, they have abandoned
the number station as the short way with the
signals for some 20 years now. because also because
also one thing that the CIA and MI6 have many
failures about that actually in Soviet Union,
in Russia many people were caught with all these
stations it passed but however Russia for instance
the Cuba or China sometimes or Taiwan or Republic
of China or South Korea, North Korea They seem
to have a still need for that. They have people
within the operations who still know how to use
them. Russia has a very old cryptography school,
very sophisticated, very traditional school of
shortwave and cryptography. And I suppose that
the Russians simply have operations with a crier.
for them to do that. There are people who know
how to do that very, very, very, very, very,
very effectively. And also because they must
understand that the intelligence and emergencies,
they got many operations at once. And there are
maybe some few of them that use these, these,
these, these number sessions codes. Well, some
people could use them still. by other means like
stagonography or some other means by give it
messaging. So it's more about the need and bad
capability because it's still a method that works.
It works regardless of the risks. If it works,
don't try to fix it. Of course. Yeah. That is,
um, we say for Russians, Russians don't fix things
that, that works. It's more about the priest
and people to, to, to, to stick to the things
that work. All right. Well, we're going to take
a commercial break right now and then we're going
to come back with Manus and Ask a few more questions
here and take your phone calls live here on the
show When we come back right after this word
from tower electronics right here on ham talk
live Jerry what's up, man? I've been seeing you
at Sun bucks in a while. I used to see you every
morning getting coffee. What's up? Well, I can't
afford SunBucks five days a week anymore. I had
to spend my money on PL -259s. You know, those
antenna projects I've been meaning to do. I had
to do them before my HOA finds out I have antennas.
That's too bad, Jerry. I miss seeing you and
catching up over coffee. You should get your
PL -259s from Tower Electronics. They have great
stuff. Jerry, you're back! Oh, QRM Heterodyne
Frappuccino. That's a good choice. How's it going?
Did you get all those antennas up before the
HOA police showed up? Yeah, I got them all done.
Thanks for telling me about Tower Electronics.
Now I can have my coffee. I just saved a bunch
of money on my PL259s by switching to Tower Electronics.
Don't get caught without PL259s. Visit Tower
Electronics online at PL -259 .com. or at a ham
fest near you, or give them a call at 920 -435
-2973. And be sure to pick up some power poles,
adapters, and cables too. Join the conversation.
Give us a call at 859 -982 -7373. Again, the
number to call is 859 -982 -7373. Or if you'd
rather type than talk, tweet us at HamTalk Live.
Now, here's Neil Rapp with more HamTalk Live.
Here's the snap. Rapp takes the rig. He breaks
through the pile up. He's on 80, now 40, now
20, 15, 10, two meters, touchdown, HamTalk Live.
Welcome back to ham talk live tower electronics.
Hey, they've got some ham fest coming up. Ladies
and gentlemen, October 4th, they're going to
be in Columbus junction, Iowa. And I about jumped
out of my seat when I found out about this with
November seven, Bedford, Indiana, just down the
road from me. So I'm looking forward to visiting
tower electronics down in Bedford on November
seven. And then November 13th and 14th, they'll
be in Fort Walton Beach, Florida, but you can
visit them anytime at PL -259 .com. Ham talk
live is on the air every Thursday night at nine
PM Eastern time, right here at am talk live .com
and be sure to check us out on Facebook, Twitter,
and Instagram. And if you'd like to give us a
call, it's eight five nine nine eight two 73
73, or you can tweet us at ham talk live. And
if you're listening to us on WTWW or the podcast
edition, uh, you won't be able to reach us tonight
because, uh, We're recording this live on Thursday
and my guest tonight is Maris Goldmanis from
Latvia and he is with the Numberstations Research
and Information Center and their website again
numbers -stations. com and you can find their
predictions of where some of these numbers stations
are and, and keep track of these. If you want
to, uh, to listen in and try to find some of
these, I'm not sure what you're going to bake
out of it, but you can, you can certainly, uh,
give it a try. So, um, let's, uh, let's finish
up here with a couple of questions, uh, for Mannes.
Uh, why just numbers? Why not? Why not mix in
some letters? Um, and even I heard one the other
day that was playing music. How I don't understand
how they can code messages with music, but, um,
why, why so many of them that just use numbers?
Well, first of all, the music is not meant for
decoding music is meant for like, um, Recognize
a signal like a pretense It's the same like for
local stations to go music before before them
and then There's a music like America there's
a music there's a music for many of these stations
better better met for the But during the Cold
War, these gongs or uspody signals, very famous
or very important, they were just signals that
recognized the station. It's called a black interval
signal. They were just very cosmetic. They were
not acquired for the coding. They asked for the
collectors, for instance. Well, it's a long time
because in the past, for instance, there were
some cases where there were NATO collectors with
with the numbers like, for instance, Alpha India
and so on. They were used by Mossad stations
from Israel, also from Germany, West Germany.
And right now, for instance, the most part, the
phonetics are used for military broadcasts by
US, where they use the NATO alphabet, where Russians
use their own phonetics. but then the buzzer
messages are done made from numbers and from
the Russian phonetics like and so on and of course
the thing is about why they don't use the phonetics
is because not because they can't use phonetics
it's because of the methods of of cryptography,
because people can make these synchronicity messages,
they can choose other methods. And the most common
method for number stations, for intel stations
is using the five -digit messages. But I must
say, these various encodings, how they send these
cryptographic messages is up to each agency because
you may know... They're not clear. They do these
things in a very interesting way. They send the
code messages during the live broadcast on state
radio every night. They say it's a good exercise
for the welfare mass students. It's a clear text,
but disguised as a... better exercise for students
for physics and mathematics to turn page that,
turn page this, dig right that, dig right this.
But really it's a little bit of a message. So
there is no rule to not use the phonetics. It's
just a method, a pressure of method. And are
these stations actually licensed or are they
just totally operating above the law? I would
say, of course, I would say that the U .S. Emergency
Reduction Messages used by military, they are
licensed in their own way. But of course, the
messages, these number of station messages, classical
like one two three four and so on of course they
are not licensed because if they would be licensed
then they will be easily testable and they cannot
be licensed because also for for for russian
chinese cubans of course why they would need
license from america they will just send whenever
they want and also this thing for russian military
The Russian military is the main abuser so to
come radio burns and they don't need any license
from anyone and they don't care about it. So
I'm sorry but you won't be able without any very
harsh means to silence them with FCC but they
won't silence them. Yeah. Well, that, that is
actually, um, leading into a question that's
come in here from John W four U S F and he wants
to know, um, has there been any attempt to jam
these signals? Has anybody tried to interfere
with them and Uh, what international body can
be used to try to force them off of ham radio
frequencies. And, and I guess there's probably
not one, but, uh, first of all, any, any attempts
to jam them. Well, of course people often jam
them. You know, as I mentioned, the PIP, the
Russian military station from Rostov, they just
use the PIP marker all night. An 80 -meter handband,
people often just jump, but it's no use, of course.
It just PIPs all night. People try to jump, jump
for fun. home to complain. Well, there is just
one real people who can stop this conversation
from happening. It's the counterintelligence.
They will capture the spy and the foreign intelligence
will stop it, sending the signal. Well, if there
is no political way to get on the track, there
is a political way that made many states in silence
was end of the Cold War. In 1991, many stations
simply from East Germany, from Poland, communist
countries simply stopped their stations because
they were changing political regimes. But otherwise,
well, you can just... Well, you can complain
to someone, complain to the CIA, complain to
the Russians, but they will just say, we don't
know nothing about this, you are mistaken, you
are, you're complaining for a hat and so on.
They really told about this valentine thing in
80s, they also, they found a trace, a signal
to valentine, they send these four -digit Morse
code messages and they ask about it. They asked
about that thing, the CIA, the officials, they
said, we don't know about that thing. You can
find it in the monitoring times. There was very
much about that. There was CIA stations found
and so on. But you must ask the counterintelligence
agency to stop them. To find those spies, to
find those Cubans, to find those Russians, to
use those agents within America. And I suppose
they're trying to do that. Otherwise, you must
just tolerate them. You must tolerate them because
they are... They, they won't go away because,
because, because I'm civil in all stats. All
right. Well, John, thank you for that question.
And, and I hope that, uh, that pretty much answers
it. Um, and I know, you know, even back in the
days of the, um, you know, the, the Russian woodpecker
from, uh, um, From, you know, from Russia, the
over -rise and radar, uh, there were people who
tried to jam it and actually, uh, were successful
in, in getting them to, uh, change frequencies
at least, uh, a little harder for the spies.
Well, they have, uh, but the woodpecker was in
Ukraine near Chernobyl. Chernobyl. Yes, the woodpecker
was located near Chernobyl. It's within the zone.
Now it's cushioned, so because of the disaster
within the nuclear power plant, this is activity
for that reason. Because it's within the zone.
Right. Yeah, I've been meaning to do a show about
that and I've got some transcripts from some
people talking about the history of it, but I've
been trying to track down some of these people
who were actually successful in jamming it with
some Morse code and haven't been able to track
any of them down, but maybe we'll... Well, we'll
do another show here on ham talk live about the,
uh, about the Russian woodpecker soon. Well,
I noticed that on your, on your website, you
have several web SDR links and even a U S band
plan for the ham radio. So, uh, what, what's
the connection here? You're using web SDRs just
like we do, I guess. Well, the people who seriously
want to listen to the number stations, they also
must know the basics about the shortwave radio
operation. There are even some people who listen
to these stations, but they have common radio
licenses also. Well, the people want to really
buy a shortwave radio receiver, they want to
buy SDR, they want to... But to understand these
things, they must understand also some things
about radio basics. So it's not just like we
are the excels, of course, but we must understand
the basics. And that's why also many people often
ask, many newcomers ask, what is that sound over
there? Very strange sound. We ask, where is the
radio? Commit operator. Oh, commit operator.
I was told it's a spy. So maybe there, maybe
there's more connection there than we realized.
Well, uh, your, your website again has, has a
lot of information on it and it's numbers dash
stations. And that's the site that you and Ryan
have put together. There's a lot of information
there. I was looking at it. There's a calendar
there. you know, where you had different predictions
of different number stations and other stations,
uh, you know, where you predicted them to be
on the bands and when, and, uh, just, just tons
and tons of information. So I want to make sure
people know to go there. Numbers dash stations.
dot com. And and you were telling me before we
started the show tonight that you have a very
diverse group of international people that are
participating in this program in several different
countries. So if someone wants to participate
in your, in your program to, to listen to these
and monitor these and just kind of, uh, you know,
keep tabs on where these are popping up. What,
what should people do to join the cause? Yes.
In our site, there is a section called Discord.
We have two ways of group communication. We have
Discord server. It's a very popular platform,
mostly for, of course, for gamers. It's used
by many people. It's called Discord. Another
way to connect us is also the Telegram. There
is a very popular way. There's also a page on
Facebook So there's a three things like this
discord there is a Telegram and Facebook and
you can find us there Okay, very good It's a
like a chart like IRC chart some you may know
such a thing Okay. Well, I think that's, that's
going to wrap it up. We're, uh, we're actually
a little over time here. So, uh, we're going
to finish up here, but any, any final thoughts
here before we, uh, before we go. Well, the number
of stations are the thing that very popular among
people because of them. mass media, many movies,
many games and so on. But really they are very,
very interesting thing that were used by military,
by intelligence agencies. Well, for their own
needs, but I think that people should listen
to them because listen to the stations help them.
Well, to understand the radio better, become
a radio operator sometimes even, to get friends
across the world. And of course, for me, the
biggest thing for me, the main thing is not the
radio, the logging and so on, for me. This is
history, because I'm a historian, and we found
this last month, this March, I found very good
documents that confirm that these stations are
used by the intelligence archives in Latvia.
We have a very large KGB archive in Latvia. It
proves that these stations are used by the CIA.
We found a very classic recording by KGB of drama
stations within the archive. We can publish that.
And so we are moving to a new level. It's no
longer a mystery. It's no longer a very spooky,
creepy thing. We can show it. what they are for,
what they are needed for, where they are. And
so people can go out to our site, other sites,
and find out very interesting things about them.
All right. Well, it is some very interesting
history for sure. And it's neat to listen in
on those things. yet today and just, and just
hear those. You just, it just, it makes you wonder.
It really sparks your curiosity as to, okay,
what are they really trying to communicate? What
are the, what are they saying? And, and, you
know, what, what's really happening here? And
of course, a lot of times we'll never know, uh,
what's really being said and what's really happening.
But, uh, it's, it's. fun to listen in nonetheless.
So, uh, wanted to talk a little bit about it
tonight. And I thank you so much for getting
up so early in the morning to, to be with us
from Latvia. And, uh, again, refer everyone to
the website numbers dash stations .com and, uh,
and check them out on, on discord and, and Facebook
and telegram and, and, um, Find out a little
more about the history of this. And again, you
know, like he said, it's just some, some basic
radio skills of finding these and listening to
them. So thank you so much for being on the show
with us tonight. I really appreciate it. Thank
you. All right, well that is a wrap for this
week's edition of ham talk live Thanks to my
guest Maris gold manis and everybody out there
in cyberspace for listening and typing in tonight
and Invite you back next Thursday night 9 p .m.
Eastern time Right here at ham talk live comm
and if you want to see our upcoming guest list,
make sure you go over to hamtalklive .com as
well. And if you like the show, please leave
us a review. That's the best way that you can
help. And others can find us faster that way.
So please do that. All right. Well, for now,
this is Neil Rapp, WB9VPG saying 7375 and may
the good DX be yours. Thank you.