WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.620 This episode of HamTalk Live is brought to you 00:00:02.620 --> 00:00:06.019 by Tower Electronics. For connectors, cables, 00:00:06.240 --> 00:00:12.939 and more, call 920 -435 -2973 or visit pl -259 00:00:12.939 --> 00:00:17.640 .com. And by ICOM, heard it, worked it, logged 00:00:17.640 --> 00:00:22.879 it. Visit www .icomamerica .com slash amateur 00:00:22.879 --> 00:00:31.960 for more information about ICOM radios. Here 00:00:31.960 --> 00:00:38.539 we go, welcome to Amtopi Calling less talk, Neil's 00:00:38.539 --> 00:00:59.479 your guy Amtopi, here we go Good evening, everyone. 00:00:59.679 --> 00:01:03.259 It's time for HamTalk Live episode number 259. 00:01:03.840 --> 00:01:08.359 The new FCC RF exposure policy recorded live 00:01:08.359 --> 00:01:12.909 on Thursday, May 13th, 2021. I'm your host, Neil 00:01:12.909 --> 00:01:16.230 Rapp, WB9VPG. Thanks for tuning in to this episode 00:01:16.230 --> 00:01:19.549 of HamTalk Live. Tonight, we're joined by Greg 00:01:19.549 --> 00:01:25.310 Lapin, N9GL, and Dan Brown, W1DAN. And we'll 00:01:25.310 --> 00:01:28.510 take your calls live a little later in the show. 00:01:28.969 --> 00:01:33.930 Last week, Bobby Graves, KB5HAV, Julio Ripple, 00:01:34.569 --> 00:01:39.790 WD4R, Rob Macedo, KD1CY, and Lloyd Colston, KC5FM 00:01:39.790 --> 00:01:42.459 were here. to talk about this year's hurricane 00:01:42.459 --> 00:01:44.439 net so if you missed that show you can listen 00:01:44.439 --> 00:01:48.120 anytime at HamTalkLive .com or on your favorite 00:01:48.120 --> 00:01:51.239 podcast app or on YouTube and don't forget you 00:01:51.239 --> 00:01:55.120 can catch the rebroadcast of HamTalk Live on 00:01:55.120 --> 00:02:01.939 WTWW that's 5085 AM Saturday afternoons at about 00:02:01.939 --> 00:02:06.400 330 PM Eastern Time. So we've got an interesting 00:02:06.400 --> 00:02:10.960 show tonight if the Chat before the show is any 00:02:10.960 --> 00:02:14.620 indication. This is going to be a very interesting 00:02:14.620 --> 00:02:18.840 show tonight. So if you have questions, get those 00:02:18.840 --> 00:02:21.439 ready. And I'm going to give you the phone number 00:02:21.439 --> 00:02:23.599 so you can write it down and have it ready to 00:02:23.599 --> 00:02:27.240 call in or type it in and have it ready to go. 00:02:27.300 --> 00:02:29.419 If you're listening to us live on Thursday night, 00:02:29.439 --> 00:02:32.979 you can call us after the interview and I'll 00:02:32.979 --> 00:02:35.419 tell you when it's time to call. But here's the 00:02:35.419 --> 00:02:45.020 number. It's 859. 9 8 2 73 73 again the number 00:02:45.020 --> 00:02:56.439 8 5 9 9 8 2 73 73 We'll also take questions from 00:02:56.439 --> 00:02:59.060 Twitter a Twitter handle is at ham talk live 00:02:59.060 --> 00:03:01.180 and if you're on Spreaker live and you have an 00:03:01.180 --> 00:03:04.219 account you can Type in the comments there and 00:03:04.219 --> 00:03:07.590 we'll see those as the night goes on. So I'll 00:03:07.590 --> 00:03:10.069 be back with Greg and Dan right after this word 00:03:10.069 --> 00:03:12.990 from Tower Electronics right here on HamTalk 00:03:12.990 --> 00:03:18.009 Live. Thanks for choosing Tower Electronics. 00:03:18.409 --> 00:03:22.469 How may we help you today? We have PL259s. We 00:03:22.469 --> 00:03:25.789 have in connectors. We have SMA adapters. We 00:03:25.789 --> 00:03:28.629 have BNC adapters. What can I show you today? 00:03:28.830 --> 00:03:32.009 Where's the tower? Well, we don't actually have 00:03:32.009 --> 00:03:35.139 a tower with us. But we have all kinds of things 00:03:35.139 --> 00:03:38.120 you can use with a tower. We have power poles, 00:03:38.560 --> 00:03:41.080 antennas, soldering irons and meters. Where's 00:03:41.080 --> 00:03:44.360 the tower? Ma 'am, that's the name of our company. 00:03:44.919 --> 00:03:47.479 We can't haul towers to all the ham fest across 00:03:47.479 --> 00:03:49.939 the country that we visit, but we have almost 00:03:49.939 --> 00:03:52.520 every connector and adapter you would need to 00:03:52.520 --> 00:03:54.620 connect your antenna that's on your tower. I 00:03:54.620 --> 00:03:56.960 don't think there's a tower back there. I really 00:03:56.960 --> 00:04:15.080 don't. Coming to you live from the glass -enclosed 00:04:15.080 --> 00:04:18.540 Faraday box, here's Neil Rapp with more HamTalk 00:04:18.540 --> 00:04:37.060 Live. Welcome back to HamTalk Live! Thanks to 00:04:37.060 --> 00:04:40.300 Scott and Jill at Tower Electronics for sponsoring 00:04:40.300 --> 00:04:43.160 the show tonight. They help bring HamTalk Live 00:04:43.160 --> 00:04:46.439 your way each and every week. Coming up on their 00:04:46.439 --> 00:04:48.759 HamFest schedule, they do have a couple of them 00:04:48.759 --> 00:04:53.500 out there. Newbury, Michigan in June 12th and 00:04:53.500 --> 00:04:56.959 Monroe, Michigan June 20th. But you can visit 00:04:56.959 --> 00:05:05.959 them anytime at PL -259. Tonight, Greg Lappin, 00:05:06.100 --> 00:05:12.360 N9GL and Dan Brown W1DAN joins us on the Orlando 00:05:12.360 --> 00:05:16.060 Amateur Radio Club and Hamcation Zoom Line. Dr. 00:05:16.199 --> 00:05:20.379 Greg Lapin, N9GL, is the chair of the ARRL RF 00:05:20.379 --> 00:05:24.339 Safety Committee and a member of the FCC Technological 00:05:24.339 --> 00:05:29.160 Advisory Council. And Dan Brown, W1DAN, is the 00:05:29.160 --> 00:05:31.699 Eastern Massachusetts Technical Coordinator, 00:05:32.180 --> 00:05:34.819 president of the Wellesley Amateur Radio Society, 00:05:34.819 --> 00:05:39.079 and he's a television broadcast engineer in Boston, 00:05:39.079 --> 00:05:42.430 Massachusetts, or I should say... Boston, Massachusetts, 00:05:42.490 --> 00:05:45.470 I guess. So Greg and Dan, welcome to the show. 00:05:45.610 --> 00:05:49.149 It's great to have you here. Thank you, Neil. 00:05:49.949 --> 00:05:53.629 Hey, good evening. How are you, Neil? Doing well, 00:05:53.870 --> 00:05:56.610 doing well. We're wrapping up the end of the 00:05:56.610 --> 00:06:03.029 school year here and getting ready for a move. 00:06:03.509 --> 00:06:06.870 And so we're actually going to be off the show 00:06:06.870 --> 00:06:12.290 for the next three weeks during the move. But 00:06:12.290 --> 00:06:16.649 the timing here is pretty appropriate because 00:06:16.649 --> 00:06:20.990 I'm taking down all the antennas and the tower 00:06:20.990 --> 00:06:25.610 and everything and trying to come up with what 00:06:25.610 --> 00:06:29.329 I'm going to do at the new place. And there are 00:06:29.329 --> 00:06:33.660 RF exposure issues there, of course. uh... living 00:06:33.660 --> 00:06:36.879 in a neighborhood and uh... the fcc is issued 00:06:36.879 --> 00:06:40.660 a report in order uh... to extensively revise 00:06:40.660 --> 00:06:44.279 the RF exposure standards and that took effect 00:06:44.279 --> 00:06:48.420 on may third so uh... greg tell us a little bit 00:06:48.420 --> 00:06:50.980 about how what does this mean to the everyday 00:06:50.980 --> 00:06:54.899 ham and and how is this impacting the ham radio 00:06:54.899 --> 00:06:59.480 community well i think it's a little scary to 00:06:59.480 --> 00:07:05.959 say that extensively revise the RF exposure standards, 00:07:06.319 --> 00:07:09.360 because the revisions are not that extensive. 00:07:09.839 --> 00:07:13.779 They don't affect us all that greatly, us being 00:07:13.779 --> 00:07:17.139 hams or many of the other people who transmit 00:07:17.139 --> 00:07:20.660 in the United States as well. So the first thing 00:07:20.660 --> 00:07:22.860 you should know is no exposure thresholds were 00:07:22.860 --> 00:07:28.079 changed at all. So if you tested or examined 00:07:28.079 --> 00:07:30.759 your station in some way, performed an assessment 00:07:30.759 --> 00:07:33.810 before, That applies today, even after the rule 00:07:33.810 --> 00:07:38.610 change. The FCC exposure regulations were changed 00:07:38.610 --> 00:07:41.629 mainly to harmonize similar rules across all 00:07:41.629 --> 00:07:45.009 of the services that they regulate, which includes 00:07:45.009 --> 00:07:48.449 amateur radio. The major change for HAMS is that 00:07:48.449 --> 00:07:51.750 previously we had a table of categorical exclusions 00:07:51.750 --> 00:07:54.170 that set minimum conditions under which we did 00:07:54.170 --> 00:07:57.350 not have to automatically perform exposure assessments. 00:07:58.740 --> 00:08:01.600 And that's because the likelihood of overexposure 00:08:01.600 --> 00:08:04.160 was considered to be very low in those cases. 00:08:05.480 --> 00:08:08.899 And that goes all the way back to 1998. That's 00:08:08.899 --> 00:08:12.680 when that went into effect. And when they did 00:08:12.680 --> 00:08:14.860 that, at that time, they made special conditions 00:08:14.860 --> 00:08:17.480 for many different services. And it got very 00:08:17.480 --> 00:08:21.439 complicated, determining what to do for what 00:08:21.439 --> 00:08:24.660 service. So what they wanted to do now is make 00:08:24.660 --> 00:08:27.839 the same set of rules across all of the services 00:08:28.339 --> 00:08:30.920 And so that means a little extra work for us, 00:08:30.920 --> 00:08:36.100 but no major changes. All right. Well, that's 00:08:36.100 --> 00:08:39.379 good to know because, um, you know, when you, 00:08:39.379 --> 00:08:41.720 when you read this stuff, it's like, Oh, they've 00:08:41.720 --> 00:08:44.320 made a change. And I think you said, uh, before 00:08:44.320 --> 00:08:46.820 the show that it was the first change that's 00:08:46.820 --> 00:08:50.740 been made since like, what, 1998? That's when 00:08:50.740 --> 00:08:54.620 I first went into effect for hands. Yeah. So. 00:08:56.079 --> 00:09:00.240 It's good to know that even though some of the 00:09:00.240 --> 00:09:04.820 wording has changed and the policy has changed, 00:09:05.200 --> 00:09:09.059 not really a whole lot has changed in the ham 00:09:09.059 --> 00:09:15.179 community. What do hams need to do to evaluate 00:09:15.179 --> 00:09:20.200 their current station or a future station? What 00:09:20.200 --> 00:09:25.889 needs to be done if you're doing that? The basis 00:09:25.889 --> 00:09:32.330 is that a full evaluation can be done with measurements, 00:09:32.529 --> 00:09:35.309 but measurements are difficult because they have 00:09:35.309 --> 00:09:37.970 to be calibrated measurements. And not many people 00:09:37.970 --> 00:09:40.529 have calibrated receivers that will tell you 00:09:40.529 --> 00:09:43.850 exactly what the power densities in air are at 00:09:43.850 --> 00:09:47.950 different locations. So it's much easier to take 00:09:47.950 --> 00:09:52.309 a modeling program such as Easyneck and to model 00:09:52.309 --> 00:09:55.620 your station. and figure out just what the powers 00:09:55.620 --> 00:09:58.559 are at different distances away, and then you 00:09:58.559 --> 00:10:01.320 figure out how far people are. That's another 00:10:01.320 --> 00:10:04.340 misconception that a lot of people have. Your 00:10:04.340 --> 00:10:08.120 transmitter has nothing to do with exposure. 00:10:08.759 --> 00:10:11.259 It's your antenna that does all the exposure. 00:10:12.179 --> 00:10:16.059 So as long as you change out your transmitter 00:10:16.059 --> 00:10:18.100 with another one of the same power, there's no 00:10:18.100 --> 00:10:21.909 difference in exposure. However, the antenna 00:10:21.909 --> 00:10:24.629 is important and how far people are from the 00:10:24.629 --> 00:10:26.909 antenna is important kind of like the old saying 00:10:26.909 --> 00:10:29.929 if tree falls in the forest doesn't make a sound 00:10:29.929 --> 00:10:33.169 so if you're transmitting power and nobody's 00:10:33.169 --> 00:10:36.169 near your antenna do you expose anyone the answer 00:10:36.169 --> 00:10:43.409 is no very good well dan you're a broadcast engineer 00:10:43.409 --> 00:10:48.080 and so you're Around some high RF environments 00:10:48.080 --> 00:10:51.039 and we may talk about that a little bit more 00:10:51.039 --> 00:10:56.139 later on but I know you mentioned Handhelds and 00:10:56.139 --> 00:10:59.659 wanted to bring up handheld so Let's talk about 00:10:59.659 --> 00:11:02.419 that because that's that's right up in your face 00:11:02.419 --> 00:11:07.559 okay, so you know my history is I've done a few 00:11:07.559 --> 00:11:09.879 of these talks already on this on the subject 00:11:09.879 --> 00:11:13.820 and a lot of people who've listened to these 00:11:13.820 --> 00:11:19.200 talks are concerned because the rule was published 00:11:19.200 --> 00:11:25.659 in April and became active May 3rd and a lot 00:11:25.659 --> 00:11:27.700 of people like Greg was saying thought that there 00:11:27.700 --> 00:11:30.539 was a major change happening and it isn't really 00:11:30.539 --> 00:11:33.299 a major change it was the exclusion tables gone 00:11:33.299 --> 00:11:37.759 and everybody either did their evaluation years 00:11:37.759 --> 00:11:42.679 ago starting in 1998 or will have to do it if 00:11:42.679 --> 00:11:46.720 they change their station going forward. Some 00:11:46.720 --> 00:11:49.980 of the questions that are coming up that Greg 00:11:49.980 --> 00:11:54.700 could help us about is the handy talkie, a two 00:11:54.700 --> 00:11:58.519 meter handy talkie or a 440 handy talkie. People 00:11:58.519 --> 00:12:02.940 are concerned about the heating from the antenna 00:12:02.940 --> 00:12:08.679 and whether they need to do either measurements 00:12:09.680 --> 00:12:12.159 or actually modeling, which I don't think any 00:12:12.159 --> 00:12:14.679 ham really needs to do on a two meter antenna. 00:12:15.299 --> 00:12:19.259 And this comes up to a rule, a division that 00:12:19.259 --> 00:12:22.200 the FCC came across, which is 20 centimeters 00:12:22.200 --> 00:12:26.720 from a body. So Greg, I'd like you to elaborate 00:12:26.720 --> 00:12:31.279 on what does the average ham do with an HT these 00:12:31.279 --> 00:12:34.480 days? Well, the first thing which would make 00:12:34.480 --> 00:12:37.809 everyone feel better is that they have essentially 00:12:37.809 --> 00:12:41.570 issued a grandfather clause. So any radio that's 00:12:41.570 --> 00:12:44.009 out there now, and they went even further and 00:12:44.009 --> 00:12:47.730 said any radio that was designed, not even made, 00:12:47.850 --> 00:12:52.450 but designed under the old set of rules is grandfathered 00:12:52.450 --> 00:12:59.450 in. So that radio in perpetuity is good to go. 00:12:59.909 --> 00:13:02.759 You don't have to do anything with it. For newer 00:13:02.759 --> 00:13:06.759 radios, the manufacturers are going to have to 00:13:06.759 --> 00:13:10.480 run tests just like the cell phone manufacturers 00:13:10.480 --> 00:13:15.059 do. The one thing about the 20 centimeters that 00:13:15.059 --> 00:13:18.919 makes it a little difficult for us is that you 00:13:18.919 --> 00:13:24.240 can't model it with MPEs, which stands for maximum 00:13:24.240 --> 00:13:27.980 permissible exposures, but that's energy in the 00:13:27.980 --> 00:13:31.240 air. So we model energy in the air and assume 00:13:31.480 --> 00:13:33.679 how much of it got into your body and creates 00:13:33.679 --> 00:13:39.720 heat which is something called SAR specific absorption 00:13:39.720 --> 00:13:43.539 rate and that is the actually that's the gold 00:13:43.539 --> 00:13:48.460 standard of exposure it's very hard to measure 00:13:48.460 --> 00:13:53.639 and manufacturers do it I don't think any hams 00:13:53.639 --> 00:13:58.779 will ever be able to do it so by that grandfathering 00:13:58.779 --> 00:14:01.799 we're all okay with all of our existing radios 00:14:01.799 --> 00:14:07.139 and any radios that we buy that were built under 00:14:07.139 --> 00:14:12.799 the old rules. In the future the manufacturers 00:14:12.799 --> 00:14:16.399 are going to have to perform that analysis and 00:14:16.399 --> 00:14:18.200 then when we get it there'll be a little label 00:14:18.200 --> 00:14:20.480 on it saying that it was tested and we're good 00:14:20.480 --> 00:14:25.279 to go once again. Will they include some type 00:14:25.279 --> 00:14:29.539 of a report in a new radio? I don't know if they 00:14:29.539 --> 00:14:32.779 will. I know that that happened on some of the 00:14:32.779 --> 00:14:36.340 cell phones just because citizens groups insisted. 00:14:37.620 --> 00:14:40.620 But as far as the FCC is concerned, if they're 00:14:40.620 --> 00:14:42.519 under the limit, they're under the limit. It 00:14:42.519 --> 00:14:45.220 doesn't matter what the levels they measure are 00:14:45.220 --> 00:14:48.200 just so long as they're under the limit. Okay. 00:14:48.200 --> 00:14:52.259 Thank you, Greg. So, Greg, do you think that 00:14:52.259 --> 00:14:57.080 this might have an effect on, say, radios that 00:14:57.399 --> 00:15:01.960 You buy on Amazon for 30 bucks? Well, I have 00:15:01.960 --> 00:15:06.620 one of those too. I think we all have one or 00:15:06.620 --> 00:15:15.440 two of those. And you know, by FCC law, they 00:15:15.440 --> 00:15:18.179 can't be imported unless they've been tested 00:15:18.179 --> 00:15:24.419 to meet all the FCC rules. Beyond that, I can't 00:15:24.419 --> 00:15:29.220 speak. There are always things that come into 00:15:29.220 --> 00:15:32.860 this country incorrectly, but I don't know if 00:15:32.860 --> 00:15:37.659 this is going to be one of those. Interesting 00:15:37.659 --> 00:15:46.379 to think about. Well, why did the change happen 00:15:46.379 --> 00:15:52.700 with the exempting amateurs to require certain 00:15:52.700 --> 00:15:58.149 evaluations? Why did they feel like this is the 00:15:58.149 --> 00:16:01.289 time to make that change? Do you think? Oh, it's 00:16:01.289 --> 00:16:03.149 not like they felt this was the time. This has 00:16:03.149 --> 00:16:07.330 been in the works since, uh, I'm not sure when 00:16:07.330 --> 00:16:14.629 it started, but, uh, back in the 2007, 2008 timeframe, 00:16:15.330 --> 00:16:19.529 uh, they started making changes. The FCC was 00:16:19.529 --> 00:16:22.679 pushed by Congress to make changes. because no 00:16:22.679 --> 00:16:25.539 changes had been made to their rules for exposure 00:16:25.539 --> 00:16:28.200 in a long time. And some of the Congress people 00:16:28.200 --> 00:16:32.740 were getting pressure from their constituents 00:16:32.740 --> 00:16:36.899 to say that this can't be right. They have to 00:16:36.899 --> 00:16:41.340 keep updating it to make it safe. And that isn't 00:16:41.340 --> 00:16:46.240 true. If you look at the scientific standards, 00:16:47.340 --> 00:16:51.879 which the ones I work with go back to 1966, The 00:16:51.879 --> 00:16:54.759 levels that we have to meet have not changed 00:16:54.759 --> 00:16:59.220 an awful lot over all that time. So the science 00:16:59.220 --> 00:17:05.220 has been pretty consistent. Now, Dan, you've, 00:17:05.220 --> 00:17:09.059 like I said, work in some of those high energy 00:17:09.059 --> 00:17:13.700 fields occasionally. And you've had a chance 00:17:13.700 --> 00:17:16.359 to read this and you've been given a lot of talks 00:17:16.359 --> 00:17:20.109 on this kind of thing. I'm interested a little 00:17:20.109 --> 00:17:24.789 bit to hear what the broadcast industry is thinking 00:17:24.789 --> 00:17:29.589 of all of this. Well, the broadcasters aren't 00:17:29.589 --> 00:17:32.009 really that cognizant about this latest change 00:17:32.009 --> 00:17:35.009 because it's primarily a change for the radio 00:17:35.009 --> 00:17:40.849 amateur. However, the exposure standards, the 00:17:40.849 --> 00:17:46.829 OAT 65, A, B, and C, are still true and broadcasters 00:17:46.829 --> 00:17:51.210 have to heed to that. So for instance, we put 00:17:51.210 --> 00:17:54.309 up new transmitters about a year ago and before 00:17:54.309 --> 00:17:56.430 we could install new transmitters we actually 00:17:56.430 --> 00:18:00.150 had to do the math to determine that our antenna 00:18:00.150 --> 00:18:03.809 at 1200 feet up in the air at a certain frequency 00:18:03.809 --> 00:18:08.910 putting out megawatt ERP anybody on the ground 00:18:08.910 --> 00:18:12.069 near the tower was not going to get overexposed. 00:18:12.359 --> 00:18:15.339 And we did prove that via math, and that was 00:18:15.339 --> 00:18:17.240 part of the application to get the construction 00:18:17.240 --> 00:18:22.740 permit for the station. So what's interesting 00:18:22.740 --> 00:18:28.420 is that these rules, as Greg was saying, it homogenizes 00:18:28.420 --> 00:18:35.119 our ability to measure or calculate our exposure. 00:18:36.100 --> 00:18:39.299 across all various services of people who use 00:18:39.299 --> 00:18:44.059 radios companies use radio land mobile to a FM 00:18:44.059 --> 00:18:47.619 broadcast and broadcast television point -to 00:18:47.619 --> 00:18:52.140 -point stuff like that so you know broadcasters 00:18:52.140 --> 00:18:54.059 this is not really a change for them this is 00:18:54.059 --> 00:19:00.140 a change for radio amateurs okay very good Well, 00:19:00.140 --> 00:19:04.440 hopefully that has piqued our listeners interest 00:19:04.440 --> 00:19:07.539 here and maybe they have some questions to throw 00:19:07.539 --> 00:19:10.400 in here So we're gonna take a break and when 00:19:10.400 --> 00:19:12.940 we come back, we'll open up the phone lines at 00:19:12.940 --> 00:19:17.259 eight five nine nine eight two seventy three 00:19:17.259 --> 00:19:19.460 seventy three and we'll take a look at the tweets 00:19:19.460 --> 00:19:25.059 and and the Chat on Spreaker and all that when 00:19:25.059 --> 00:19:27.500 we come back with Greg and Dan right after this 00:19:27.500 --> 00:19:30.960 word from ICOM America right here on HamTalk 00:19:30.960 --> 00:19:34.059 Live. 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This innovative HF transceiver 00:21:24.059 --> 00:21:27.599 digitizes RF before the various receiver stages 00:21:27.599 --> 00:21:30.980 to reduce the generated inherent noise in different 00:21:30.980 --> 00:21:34.700 IF stages. The IC7300 is the radio that changed 00:21:34.700 --> 00:21:38.640 the way entry -level HF is designed. It has 15 00:21:38.640 --> 00:21:41.819 discrete bandpass filters, and that large 4 .3 00:21:41.819 --> 00:21:43.960 -inch color touchscreen with live band scope 00:21:43.960 --> 00:21:48.220 and waterfall. The real HF fun starts here. Visit 00:21:48.220 --> 00:21:52.160 icomamerica .com slash amateur for more information 00:21:52.160 --> 00:21:56.059 on ICOM radios. Nominations are now open for 00:21:56.059 --> 00:21:59.420 the Amateur Radio Newsline Bill Pasternak WA6ITF 00:21:59.420 --> 00:22:01.779 Young Ham of the Year Award. I'm Don Wilbanks, 00:22:01.859 --> 00:22:05.539 AE5DW. Since 1986, we've had the honor of celebrating 00:22:05.539 --> 00:22:07.539 the accomplishments of Youth and Ham Radio when 00:22:07.539 --> 00:22:09.279 we want to know about your exceptional Young 00:22:09.279 --> 00:22:11.640 Ham. You'll find the rules and a nominating form 00:22:11.640 --> 00:22:14.940 by clicking the Y -H -O -T -Y tab on ARNewsline 00:22:14.940 --> 00:22:17.880 .org. Fill it out, send it in, and we'll see 00:22:17.880 --> 00:22:20.019 you and an amazing young ham at the Huntsville 00:22:20.019 --> 00:22:23.359 Alabama Ham Fest in August. Thanks and 73 from 00:22:23.359 --> 00:22:39.839 Amateur Radio Newsline. Or, if you'd rather type 00:22:39.839 --> 00:22:43.619 than talk, tweet us at HamTalk Live. Now, here's 00:22:43.619 --> 00:22:49.400 Neil Rapp with more HamTalk Live. Oh, yeah. You're 00:22:49.400 --> 00:22:53.299 talking ham radio, baby. You're listening to 00:22:53.299 --> 00:23:18.160 HamTalk Live with Neil Rapp. Welcome back to 00:23:18.160 --> 00:23:20.819 HamTalk Live. HamTalk Live's on the air every 00:23:20.819 --> 00:23:23.859 Thursday night, 9 p .m. Eastern Time, right here 00:23:23.859 --> 00:23:26.319 at HamTalkLive .com. And you can check out all 00:23:26.319 --> 00:23:31.319 that cool ICOM gear over at ICOMAmerica .com 00:23:31.319 --> 00:23:35.420 slash amateur. And make sure you check out HamTalk 00:23:35.420 --> 00:23:37.799 Live on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram, as 00:23:37.799 --> 00:23:41.980 well as ICOM America Inc. You will find them 00:23:41.980 --> 00:23:46.019 there as well. Alright well we've got more to 00:23:46.019 --> 00:23:49.660 get into and again the phone lines are now open 00:23:49.660 --> 00:23:57.700 so give us a call at 859 -982 -7373 and we'll 00:23:57.700 --> 00:24:00.940 take your questions and we've got some more stuff 00:24:00.940 --> 00:24:06.420 to talk about here but first we need to go to 00:24:06.420 --> 00:24:11.869 N9GSU with this week's Now it's time for the 00:24:11.869 --> 00:24:15.130 HamTalk Live Ham Radio Joke of the Week, the 00:24:15.130 --> 00:24:17.890 part of the show where Rick tells us a ham radio 00:24:17.890 --> 00:24:20.789 joke. The HamTalk Live Ham Radio Joke of the 00:24:20.789 --> 00:24:24.509 Week is brought to you by QRM Labs. Now, here's 00:24:24.509 --> 00:24:28.829 Rick Garrett in 9GSU with today's HamTalk Live 00:24:28.829 --> 00:24:36.440 Joke of the Week. I was at the ham fest the other 00:24:36.440 --> 00:24:39.480 day and I saw a radio for sale for only a dollar, 00:24:39.619 --> 00:24:42.980 but the volume was stuck on full blast. I thought 00:24:42.980 --> 00:24:47.579 to myself, I can't turn that down. This has been 00:24:47.579 --> 00:24:50.619 the Ham Talk Live Ham Radio Joke of the Week 00:24:50.619 --> 00:24:54.359 with Rick Garrett in 9GSU. Tune in again next 00:24:54.359 --> 00:25:00.119 week for another joke from Rick. Alright guys, 00:25:00.220 --> 00:25:03.900 he can't turn that down, so we're... We're gonna 00:25:03.900 --> 00:25:10.440 have to talk about turning down the power. All 00:25:10.440 --> 00:25:12.660 right, well, it's time for your call. So if you 00:25:12.660 --> 00:25:15.700 have a question for Greg in 9GL or Dan, W -1 00:25:15.700 --> 00:25:20.700 -D -A -N, give us a call right now, 859 -982 00:25:20.700 --> 00:25:24.259 -7373 or tweet at HamTalk Live. And if you're 00:25:24.259 --> 00:25:27.619 listening to us on WTWW or on the podcast edition, 00:25:27.799 --> 00:25:31.619 this is a recording, so. We will not be available 00:25:31.619 --> 00:25:36.839 to take your call All right. Well, we were talking 00:25:36.839 --> 00:25:41.779 during the the break here about You know hams 00:25:41.779 --> 00:25:46.140 being, you know categorically excluded and I 00:25:46.140 --> 00:25:50.500 know Greg had some more to say about you know 00:25:50.500 --> 00:25:54.940 being categorically excluded and But then the 00:25:54.940 --> 00:25:59.480 FCC also says, you know We're all responsible 00:25:59.480 --> 00:26:02.500 for compliance on this and figuring this out. 00:26:03.099 --> 00:26:05.279 So, uh, Greg, why don't you talk a little bit 00:26:05.279 --> 00:26:10.019 more about that? Well, um, I, I use the phrase 00:26:10.019 --> 00:26:13.059 catch 22. I hope you all are familiar with the 00:26:13.059 --> 00:26:17.440 book or the movie. Um, but the FCC created their 00:26:17.440 --> 00:26:21.180 own catch 22, uh, where they say that all licenses 00:26:21.180 --> 00:26:24.279 are responsible for the compliance of their sites 00:26:24.279 --> 00:26:27.740 and equipment. with FCC limits on RF exposure. 00:26:28.500 --> 00:26:33.140 But the only way to know that for sure that you're 00:26:33.140 --> 00:26:36.559 compliant is to perform an assessment. And then 00:26:36.559 --> 00:26:39.099 they tell you that you may be covered by a categorical 00:26:39.099 --> 00:26:40.880 exclusion where you don't have to perform the 00:26:40.880 --> 00:26:45.900 assessment. So there's the Catch -22. Luckily, 00:26:46.480 --> 00:26:48.619 a full assessment might be a little complicated 00:26:48.619 --> 00:26:51.299 depending on your setup and type of antenna. 00:26:52.059 --> 00:26:55.019 But these simple equations that they give you 00:26:55.339 --> 00:27:03.079 today for just to determine it. It's a very conservative 00:27:03.079 --> 00:27:06.960 equation, and it just helps you determine if 00:27:06.960 --> 00:27:11.599 you have any need for concern. And running that, 00:27:12.240 --> 00:27:14.859 a lot of people can do it in their head. It's 00:27:14.859 --> 00:27:19.339 very simple. And then you know if you're talking 00:27:19.339 --> 00:27:22.279 about a condition where you might be overexposing 00:27:22.279 --> 00:27:27.890 someone or you definitely are not. And and Dan 00:27:27.890 --> 00:27:29.730 I know you wanted to talk a little bit about 00:27:29.730 --> 00:27:33.009 the calculations about the math and getting all 00:27:33.009 --> 00:27:37.390 of that Figured out and and I know you the two 00:27:37.390 --> 00:27:39.710 of you were talking earlier about you know You 00:27:39.710 --> 00:27:43.029 come up with some ridiculous number and and it's 00:27:43.029 --> 00:27:46.109 like okay. Should I be worried about that? So 00:27:46.109 --> 00:27:48.309 why don't you talk a little bit about the math? 00:27:49.329 --> 00:27:52.769 Sure, well Like Greg said there's a simple equation 00:27:52.769 --> 00:27:54.869 that you can run if you want to sharpen your 00:27:54.869 --> 00:28:00.740 pencil and do that. But I, number one, kind of 00:28:00.740 --> 00:28:03.319 look at one of these charts. There's a chart 00:28:03.319 --> 00:28:07.359 in OAT 65. It's figure one that kind of gives 00:28:07.359 --> 00:28:10.980 you the basic idea of these limits per frequency 00:28:10.980 --> 00:28:15.259 range. And I take it a little bit easier where 00:28:15.259 --> 00:28:19.539 there are a number of free online calculators 00:28:19.539 --> 00:28:22.700 that you can go to these websites and you can 00:28:22.700 --> 00:28:26.779 put in your numbers, your your transmitter power, 00:28:27.099 --> 00:28:33.180 the mode, your antenna, the coax loss, the distance 00:28:33.180 --> 00:28:36.480 from anybody, and figure out whether you're compliant. 00:28:39.039 --> 00:28:44.180 There are three that I kind of like. Paul VP9KF 00:28:44.180 --> 00:28:48.299 has a site called HintLink .com, and he has a 00:28:48.299 --> 00:28:50.700 power density calculator. You can Google that. 00:28:50.920 --> 00:28:53.579 And that shows compliance at a given distance. 00:28:54.410 --> 00:28:57.630 The Lake Washington Ham Club with the assistance 00:28:57.630 --> 00:29:04.589 of Wayne N6NB's code shows distance to compliance. 00:29:05.329 --> 00:29:09.930 And then I like this Excel spreadsheet from Ham 00:29:09.930 --> 00:29:15.230 Radio School, hamradioschool .com slash RF exposure 00:29:15.230 --> 00:29:18.109 calculator. You can download this spreadsheet 00:29:18.109 --> 00:29:22.180 and put all the numbers in. and see what your 00:29:22.180 --> 00:29:24.039 compliance is and see all the other variables 00:29:24.039 --> 00:29:28.859 as you change various numbers. So there are other 00:29:28.859 --> 00:29:32.799 calculators on the web that you can use, or like 00:29:32.799 --> 00:29:37.259 I said, you could do the paper formula calculation, 00:29:37.720 --> 00:29:42.279 but just do these and you get an idea of what 00:29:42.279 --> 00:29:45.720 bands, what power levels, what modes tend to 00:29:45.720 --> 00:29:47.859 be a little bit more troublesome than others. 00:29:49.500 --> 00:29:52.440 If you do all the calculations for all the frequencies, 00:29:52.460 --> 00:29:55.119 modes, and powers that you run, print it out 00:29:55.119 --> 00:29:57.680 and stick it in the drawer, then you've done 00:29:57.680 --> 00:30:01.779 your evaluation. And if your neighbor decides 00:30:01.779 --> 00:30:04.420 to complain and saying, ah, you're too much RF 00:30:04.420 --> 00:30:07.680 hot, and the FCC comes knocking on your door, 00:30:07.799 --> 00:30:10.319 you have this paperwork that you can show that 00:30:10.319 --> 00:30:15.910 you did due diligence. The FCC also allows people 00:30:15.910 --> 00:30:19.630 to use any other valid method to determine compliance. 00:30:20.029 --> 00:30:24.150 So they're not really limiting how you do it. 00:30:24.329 --> 00:30:27.529 They really want us to be aware of what our RF 00:30:27.529 --> 00:30:35.609 environment is. 859 -982 -7373 is the phone number. 00:30:35.650 --> 00:30:38.650 If you have a question to add to the conversation, 00:30:38.769 --> 00:30:42.009 give us a call or send us a tweet and we'll talk 00:30:42.009 --> 00:30:46.859 about that. Greg before the show when you or 00:30:46.859 --> 00:30:49.940 Dan were talking you mentioned some things about 00:30:49.940 --> 00:30:52.640 80 meters and Dan and I were kind of joking around 00:30:52.640 --> 00:30:56.240 about other things on 80 meters, but but talk 00:30:56.240 --> 00:31:01.599 a little bit about how different bands are Affected 00:31:01.599 --> 00:31:06.079 by the human body Well, it's not so much that 00:31:06.079 --> 00:31:09.319 the band is affected by the body but how much 00:31:09.319 --> 00:31:15.039 of the energy actually gets absorbed in at different 00:31:15.039 --> 00:31:18.319 frequencies. And if you just think of resonances, 00:31:19.339 --> 00:31:23.940 your antenna length is somewhat related to the 00:31:23.940 --> 00:31:27.400 wavelength. It's often a quarter wave or half 00:31:27.400 --> 00:31:31.119 wave, vertical or horizontal. And your body's 00:31:31.119 --> 00:31:34.319 the same thing. Slightly different measurements 00:31:34.319 --> 00:31:36.740 because you don't have air inside your body, 00:31:37.680 --> 00:31:40.579 at least most of your body. But the point is 00:31:40.579 --> 00:31:47.099 that As your body gets closer in size to the 00:31:47.099 --> 00:31:50.599 wavelength, you absorb more of that energy. And 00:31:50.599 --> 00:31:53.920 that's when it becomes more dangerous for you. 00:31:55.160 --> 00:32:01.099 So that's pretty much in the VHF region. An adult's 00:32:01.099 --> 00:32:06.759 head is roughly up around the lower UHF. And 00:32:06.759 --> 00:32:12.079 a normal person's body is pretty resonant all 00:32:12.079 --> 00:32:17.000 the way between 30 and 300 megahertz if you're 00:32:17.000 --> 00:32:20.359 looking at 80 meters the wave or 160 meters even 00:32:20.359 --> 00:32:23.700 the wavelength is so long that your body is just 00:32:23.700 --> 00:32:25.599 sitting in a little piece of that and you're 00:32:25.599 --> 00:32:29.640 not absorbing very much of it and I think that's 00:32:29.640 --> 00:32:35.480 that's the big clue that you get from the old 00:32:35.480 --> 00:32:39.569 exclusion table too you were excluded transmitting 00:32:39.569 --> 00:32:43.950 500 watts at 80 meters, but only, I don't have 00:32:43.950 --> 00:32:45.910 the table in front of me, but I think it was 00:32:45.910 --> 00:32:52.650 75 watts at 15 meters. So clearly your body was 00:32:52.650 --> 00:32:54.930 beginning to absorb more and more as the frequency 00:32:54.930 --> 00:32:58.950 went up. The other thing that we talked about 00:32:58.950 --> 00:33:02.509 earlier is if you want your antenna to work properly, 00:33:02.609 --> 00:33:05.930 this has nothing to do with exposure, you have 00:33:05.930 --> 00:33:09.819 to get it Good portion of a wavelength above 00:33:09.819 --> 00:33:12.599 the ground the further away you are from the 00:33:12.599 --> 00:33:15.339 ground the further you are Further away you are 00:33:15.339 --> 00:33:18.119 from people walking on the ground. So it's just 00:33:18.119 --> 00:33:24.740 naturally less exposure that way Okay, so you're 00:33:24.740 --> 00:33:28.519 gonna so this is bringing up a Touchy thing for 00:33:28.519 --> 00:33:31.940 me right now because I'm moving into an HOA the 00:33:31.940 --> 00:33:36.900 for the first time So how do you convince people? 00:33:37.669 --> 00:33:43.190 That having a 60 -foot tower is better than a 00:33:43.190 --> 00:33:47.589 30 -foot tower. I Don't know how you convince 00:33:47.589 --> 00:33:54.509 the nation away of anything You just build it 00:33:54.509 --> 00:33:57.829 it just seems backwards that it's like, you know 00:33:57.829 --> 00:34:00.549 If you if you put it up higher than there's got 00:34:00.549 --> 00:34:03.950 to be less RF exposure, right? That's absolutely 00:34:03.950 --> 00:34:09.389 true Of course, we're going to make sure that 00:34:09.389 --> 00:34:13.210 even at 30 feet up, you're not overexposing anyone. 00:34:13.690 --> 00:34:16.309 But if you get 60 feet up, you're exposing them 00:34:16.309 --> 00:34:19.730 even less. So keep in mind that, you know, if 00:34:19.730 --> 00:34:23.409 you have a 60 -foot tower with a tri -band beam 00:34:23.409 --> 00:34:28.530 on top, right? That beam is aimed towards a certain 00:34:28.530 --> 00:34:30.769 direction, so it's going to have maximum gain 00:34:30.769 --> 00:34:34.969 in that forward lobe, the main lobe of the antenna. 00:34:36.300 --> 00:34:41.840 Now if if Toto the dog and and the mother walking 00:34:41.840 --> 00:34:45.239 down the street In front of your house that main 00:34:45.239 --> 00:34:48.719 lobe is not aimed towards down towards the dog 00:34:48.719 --> 00:34:52.679 So you can use easy neck to kind of determine 00:34:52.679 --> 00:34:58.019 what that power level off lobe is and You will 00:34:58.019 --> 00:35:01.139 see that you're even more safe Another thing 00:35:01.139 --> 00:35:05.519 I want to bring up is duty factor of our transmitters 00:35:05.610 --> 00:35:09.849 So if you're on a single sideband without a speech 00:35:09.849 --> 00:35:13.570 processor, you're doing about 20 % duty cycle. 00:35:14.190 --> 00:35:16.610 And if you're doing contesting with a speech 00:35:16.610 --> 00:35:20.909 processor, you're at maybe 50 % duty cycle. FM 00:35:20.909 --> 00:35:29.429 is at 100%. FSK, RIDI, AFSK, they're at 100%. 00:35:29.429 --> 00:35:33.110 And the other thing to keep in mind is your time 00:35:33.110 --> 00:35:37.389 on and time off, the transmit time, gets averaged 00:35:37.389 --> 00:35:44.710 in as well. So that can help you. Us hams and 00:35:44.710 --> 00:35:47.110 our family members are under the control group. 00:35:47.670 --> 00:35:50.809 We're considered professionals as far as knowing 00:35:50.809 --> 00:35:54.510 that we have radios and what they do. So the 00:35:54.510 --> 00:35:58.329 averaging time is over six minutes. But you know, 00:35:58.489 --> 00:36:01.170 Toto the dog and a mother walking down the street, 00:36:01.440 --> 00:36:04.920 Uh, that averaging time is 30 minutes with a, 00:36:04.920 --> 00:36:13.820 uh, a weaker, uh, field strength. So it just, 00:36:13.920 --> 00:36:18.480 it matters where this, where this is going, where 00:36:18.480 --> 00:36:23.079 the energy is going. And, and yeah, I guess we 00:36:23.079 --> 00:36:26.400 just need to, uh, to make sure people realize 00:36:26.400 --> 00:36:30.059 that, you know, the further. It is up in the 00:36:30.059 --> 00:36:34.280 air and the more directional it is that the less 00:36:34.280 --> 00:36:36.860 Harm it could be go ahead Greg. I'm sorry. I 00:36:36.860 --> 00:36:40.739 cut you off. I Just jumped in to add to what 00:36:40.739 --> 00:36:45.460 Dan said that So if you do the the simple calculation 00:36:45.460 --> 00:36:50.760 the very simplest it assumes that Your maximum 00:36:50.760 --> 00:36:53.320 game gain of your antenna is in all directions 00:36:53.320 --> 00:36:57.800 Because it's simple not because it's true So, 00:36:57.860 --> 00:37:05.679 if you have a 10 dB gain of Yagi and you're not 00:37:05.679 --> 00:37:09.880 getting 10 dBs of gain toward the ground, but 00:37:09.880 --> 00:37:14.559 the simple equation assumes you are because it 00:37:14.559 --> 00:37:18.800 doesn't make distinction. If you still pass with 00:37:18.800 --> 00:37:22.840 that, if you're still under the thresholds with 00:37:22.840 --> 00:37:25.639 that, you're good to go and most people are. 00:37:26.159 --> 00:37:30.400 If you're not, then you go and do the real exposure 00:37:30.400 --> 00:37:34.019 analysis and put into effect some of the things 00:37:34.019 --> 00:37:38.219 that Dan said, like your 10 dB gain is toward 00:37:38.219 --> 00:37:41.639 the horizon, 60 feet up in the air, and no people 00:37:41.639 --> 00:37:43.880 walking on the ground are gonna get anything 00:37:43.880 --> 00:37:47.739 like that. And you run an easy neck profile of 00:37:47.739 --> 00:37:51.940 it, and you find out those people are way, way 00:37:51.940 --> 00:37:55.480 under, I shouldn't say underexposed, we don't. 00:37:55.690 --> 00:37:59.769 think that way, but they get much less exposure 00:37:59.769 --> 00:38:04.190 than is anywhere close to what would be considered 00:38:04.190 --> 00:38:07.889 the threshold. Greg, what about a ground mounted 00:38:07.889 --> 00:38:12.190 vertical? So the ground mounted vertical is the 00:38:12.190 --> 00:38:15.610 one that has issues because it's mounted on the 00:38:15.610 --> 00:38:19.829 ground and people can walk right up to it unlike 00:38:19.829 --> 00:38:22.869 your 80 meter dipole which is probably 20 meters 00:38:22.869 --> 00:38:25.780 in the air at least. where no one can get that 00:38:25.780 --> 00:38:29.719 close to it, they can get close to the vertical. 00:38:30.320 --> 00:38:34.219 I actually wrote a QST article once about just 00:38:34.219 --> 00:38:39.699 that topic a long, long time ago for field day, 00:38:39.760 --> 00:38:41.719 because we were using verticals in field day 00:38:41.719 --> 00:38:43.519 and we were in a field and people were walking 00:38:43.519 --> 00:38:47.159 all over the place. So the article was about 00:38:47.159 --> 00:38:49.480 that. Do your calculations for your field day 00:38:49.480 --> 00:38:51.440 site and then put ropes around your antennas 00:38:51.440 --> 00:38:55.500 to make sure no one walks that close. Okay, so 00:38:55.500 --> 00:38:59.400 that would also be the same for like summits 00:38:59.400 --> 00:39:04.360 on the air and parks on the air figure out where 00:39:04.360 --> 00:39:07.579 Your your RF field strength is too strong and 00:39:07.579 --> 00:39:10.760 then just keep people away from that point. Yes 00:39:10.760 --> 00:39:14.500 Now again, you can do it's the simple way and 00:39:14.500 --> 00:39:16.539 then just get distance from the entire antenna 00:39:16.539 --> 00:39:20.739 But in reality your vertical antenna is still 00:39:20.739 --> 00:39:23.239 Transmitting most of the energy above people's 00:39:23.239 --> 00:39:28.739 heads So if you do if you complicate your Your 00:39:28.739 --> 00:39:31.619 analysis you'll find that they can still get 00:39:31.619 --> 00:39:35.820 pretty close to the antenna and not be overexposed 00:39:35.820 --> 00:39:43.079 And Greg I know you had some you know some other 00:39:43.079 --> 00:39:47.199 studies that can kind of put people's minds at 00:39:47.199 --> 00:39:50.619 ease with the with the handhelds in some adjacent 00:39:50.619 --> 00:39:53.280 bands. So why don't you mention that too? And 00:39:53.280 --> 00:39:56.159 then we've got a question on Twitter here. Okay. 00:39:57.480 --> 00:40:02.820 We mentioned that anything closer than 20 centimeters 00:40:02.820 --> 00:40:05.739 has to have an SAR analysis, which is a very 00:40:05.739 --> 00:40:08.780 difficult analysis to perform. But manufacturers 00:40:08.780 --> 00:40:12.940 do that. They have been doing it for cell phones 00:40:12.940 --> 00:40:16.389 for many years now. They haven't been doing it 00:40:16.389 --> 00:40:18.489 for ham radios because they haven't been required 00:40:18.489 --> 00:40:24.650 to. Now they will be. Any radios that you have 00:40:24.650 --> 00:40:26.789 today are grandfathered in, so you don't have 00:40:26.789 --> 00:40:32.210 to worry about that. But eventually, the manufacturers 00:40:32.210 --> 00:40:36.690 will be doing that. And the radio you buy, the 00:40:36.690 --> 00:40:40.230 HD that you buy, will have a little sticker on 00:40:40.230 --> 00:40:43.869 it that says it was tested. And then you're, 00:40:43.869 --> 00:40:47.849 once again, compliant. Our safety committee, 00:40:47.869 --> 00:40:50.889 we did a real quick little look at commercial 00:40:50.889 --> 00:40:56.969 HTs that sit in bands adjacent to ham HTs. So 00:40:56.969 --> 00:41:01.130 the police and firefighters use HTs sometimes 00:41:01.130 --> 00:41:04.530 in the 150, 160 megahertz region, pretty close 00:41:04.530 --> 00:41:08.150 to two meters. And the military uses HTs down 00:41:08.150 --> 00:41:11.789 138 to 144 on the other side of two meters. All 00:41:11.789 --> 00:41:15.519 of those are tested. And we went and looked at 00:41:15.519 --> 00:41:18.019 the FCC database and found that the testing for 00:41:18.019 --> 00:41:22.219 all of those is below, and sometimes quite a 00:41:22.219 --> 00:41:27.659 bit below, the limits, the overexposure, the 00:41:27.659 --> 00:41:33.960 FCC limits. So if we can just make the leap from 00:41:33.960 --> 00:41:37.800 over that short few megahertz and think that 00:41:37.800 --> 00:41:40.440 they're not gonna build those ham HTs any different 00:41:40.440 --> 00:41:43.159 than they're building the commercial ones, then 00:41:43.159 --> 00:41:48.820 we can be assured that our HTs are going to meet 00:41:48.820 --> 00:41:55.340 all of the FCC SAR limits. All right, very good. 00:41:55.440 --> 00:41:57.719 Well, let's take a question here from Twitter. 00:41:58.019 --> 00:42:04.639 Chris, w4nrg, wants to know, what are the consequences 00:42:04.639 --> 00:42:09.599 of exposing someone or yourself? Is it a third 00:42:09.599 --> 00:42:15.690 arm or a burn or a lawsuit? You'd probably get 00:42:15.690 --> 00:42:21.949 arrested. It's a very good question. The standards 00:42:21.949 --> 00:42:27.050 have been written with quite a bit of safety 00:42:27.050 --> 00:42:30.610 in them. So what they do when they write a standard 00:42:30.610 --> 00:42:32.329 is they go out and look at all the science that 00:42:32.329 --> 00:42:35.110 was ever done with exposure and they look for 00:42:35.110 --> 00:42:38.010 anything that has an effect, not just any effect 00:42:38.010 --> 00:42:42.170 but a bad effect. And then they divide by 10, 00:42:42.550 --> 00:42:44.650 the level at which that effect occurred. They 00:42:44.650 --> 00:42:51.989 divide the RF power by 10. And that's for hams. 00:42:52.789 --> 00:42:55.530 That's the occupational level. And then they 00:42:55.530 --> 00:42:59.590 divide by another five for the person walking 00:42:59.590 --> 00:43:04.369 down the street, the general public. So the quick 00:43:04.369 --> 00:43:09.250 answer is if you go over that exposure threshold, 00:43:09.550 --> 00:43:13.550 for a short time, you'll see no effects. And 00:43:13.550 --> 00:43:17.050 that's why there's averaging time. You average, 00:43:17.309 --> 00:43:20.769 you can, let's say, expose over the threshold 00:43:20.769 --> 00:43:23.909 for a short time, but if it's averaged over a 00:43:23.909 --> 00:43:26.449 six minute period for us, or a 30 minute period 00:43:26.449 --> 00:43:30.130 for the general population, and the average is 00:43:30.130 --> 00:43:35.269 below that threshold, that is perfectly safe. 00:43:38.240 --> 00:43:40.699 I knew there were conservative values. I didn't 00:43:40.699 --> 00:43:45.800 know it was that conservative. Yeah, the standard 00:43:45.800 --> 00:43:48.940 works with a lot of science, the thousands and 00:43:48.940 --> 00:43:52.699 thousands of studies. And they have to allow 00:43:52.699 --> 00:43:55.760 for a lot of variation. A lot of the science 00:43:55.760 --> 00:44:00.619 doesn't always have the best measurements of 00:44:00.619 --> 00:44:03.760 signal levels. So just to be on the safe side, 00:44:03.800 --> 00:44:07.059 they take what everyone says and divide it way 00:44:07.059 --> 00:44:17.219 down. Okay, good to know so yeah, I mean In my 00:44:17.219 --> 00:44:20.119 chemistry background, you know and looking at 00:44:20.119 --> 00:44:24.860 radiation effects there's there's this you know 00:44:24.860 --> 00:44:28.719 pretty big threshold of You're not gonna see 00:44:28.719 --> 00:44:32.619 a thing and then you know then you might start 00:44:32.619 --> 00:44:35.239 you know kind of getting into the immune system 00:44:35.239 --> 00:44:40.309 a little bit, but but You know, that's probably 00:44:40.309 --> 00:44:44.489 about all we're talking about, especially here. 00:44:45.269 --> 00:44:50.170 Neil, let me stop you because you're talking 00:44:50.170 --> 00:44:52.289 chemistry and I'm pretty sure you're talking 00:44:52.289 --> 00:44:57.789 about ionizing radiation. Right. So there is 00:44:57.789 --> 00:45:01.010 one of the basic differences in radiation. We 00:45:01.010 --> 00:45:03.150 call it radiation because it radiates, not because 00:45:03.150 --> 00:45:06.489 it's dangerous. Right. It goes from here to there. 00:45:09.079 --> 00:45:13.360 nuclear bombs, nuclear power plants, they make 00:45:13.360 --> 00:45:17.579 ionizing radiation. And what that means is it 00:45:17.579 --> 00:45:20.679 will take chemical substances in your body and 00:45:20.679 --> 00:45:23.519 turn them into ions, breaks them apart. That's 00:45:23.519 --> 00:45:27.340 not good for you. And even then, you can get 00:45:27.340 --> 00:45:29.800 exposed to a certain amount of that and survive. 00:45:31.760 --> 00:45:35.739 A lot of studies back in the middle of the 1900s, 00:45:36.440 --> 00:45:40.960 nuclear weapons were being developed about just 00:45:40.960 --> 00:45:45.579 what a person could tolerate. But eventually 00:45:45.579 --> 00:45:49.519 it did bad things to you. Non -ionizing radiation 00:45:49.519 --> 00:45:52.239 doesn't do any of that. It does not break apart 00:45:52.239 --> 00:45:54.659 any of the chemical substances in your body. 00:45:55.679 --> 00:45:59.260 So there's no effects on anything except, like 00:45:59.260 --> 00:46:03.559 a microwave oven, it generates heat. So we make 00:46:03.559 --> 00:46:05.420 sure it doesn't generate anywhere near the heat 00:46:05.420 --> 00:46:08.039 that a microwave oven does, but it is generating 00:46:08.039 --> 00:46:10.920 heat in your body. Your body is very good at 00:46:10.920 --> 00:46:15.860 removing heat. It has all kinds of little things 00:46:15.860 --> 00:46:17.860 that it will do. It'll make you start breathing 00:46:17.860 --> 00:46:22.480 faster to expel heat. Sweating, obviously. And 00:46:22.480 --> 00:46:25.420 if the heat is localized, say in your brain, 00:46:26.119 --> 00:46:28.940 your body will actually increase the blood flow 00:46:28.940 --> 00:46:33.420 to the hot part to pull the heat away. So your 00:46:33.420 --> 00:46:35.639 body is capable of removing a certain amount 00:46:35.639 --> 00:46:38.519 of heat, but not too much So that's where the 00:46:38.519 --> 00:46:42.019 standards are based. They don't want your body 00:46:42.019 --> 00:46:44.059 Generated or they don't want the RF generating 00:46:44.059 --> 00:46:46.400 more heat in your body than your body can remove. 00:46:47.639 --> 00:46:53.500 I Have a fun analogy When I was a novice I Had 00:46:53.500 --> 00:46:59.809 a Heath kit Apache transmitter on CW And one 00:46:59.809 --> 00:47:02.809 day I accidentally transmitted into the end of 00:47:02.809 --> 00:47:06.250 a piece of coax. And I had touched that piece 00:47:06.250 --> 00:47:11.429 of coax with my finger. And it burned my finger. 00:47:13.110 --> 00:47:16.409 It was like a match. You took a match and put 00:47:16.409 --> 00:47:19.849 your finger over it. And it burned my finger. 00:47:21.369 --> 00:47:24.789 And that was it. It took longer for that to heal, 00:47:24.889 --> 00:47:28.050 but it did heal. And I think that was a little 00:47:28.050 --> 00:47:31.170 bit higher than our MPEs we're dealing with today. 00:47:31.889 --> 00:47:35.130 Yeah, probably a lot higher. I have a similar 00:47:35.130 --> 00:47:40.630 story where I, in the old tube radios, I reached 00:47:40.630 --> 00:47:46.570 in and touched the capacitor and got the same 00:47:46.570 --> 00:47:52.289 kind of burn that you got. Yeah, right. So yeah, 00:47:52.429 --> 00:47:57.539 anyway. Mitigation, a couple of things we can 00:47:57.539 --> 00:48:05.340 do if we are overexposing people is we can restrict 00:48:05.340 --> 00:48:09.539 access to our antennas. We can move the antennas 00:48:09.539 --> 00:48:13.579 up higher or farther away from people. We can 00:48:13.579 --> 00:48:15.820 talk for shorter periods of time or just go off 00:48:15.820 --> 00:48:19.380 the air for a while. We can lower our transmit 00:48:19.380 --> 00:48:23.389 power and then we can also pause operating when 00:48:23.389 --> 00:48:26.670 Toto's walking by with Mother on the street. 00:48:30.829 --> 00:48:33.530 There you go. So some good mitigation strategies 00:48:33.530 --> 00:48:38.769 there. And yeah, and that was my point too, Greg. 00:48:40.949 --> 00:48:45.949 That's the chemical stuff. There's a fairly good 00:48:45.949 --> 00:48:50.010 threshold in that, and this is nowhere near. 00:48:50.329 --> 00:48:56.349 that range. So yeah, that's absolutely agree 00:48:56.349 --> 00:49:01.110 there. All right, well, we're about to the end 00:49:01.110 --> 00:49:05.969 here, guys. So let me shoot it back to both of 00:49:05.969 --> 00:49:09.309 you for any final comments here before we wrap 00:49:09.309 --> 00:49:16.409 things up tonight. Great, go ahead. I'll go first. 00:49:18.579 --> 00:49:24.719 I have seen, just looking at some of the different 00:49:24.719 --> 00:49:27.400 things online, that people get really worked 00:49:27.400 --> 00:49:30.820 up about some of this stuff. And I've seen some 00:49:30.820 --> 00:49:36.079 really horrible misconceptions. You don't need 00:49:36.079 --> 00:49:38.940 to get that upset about these things. First of 00:49:38.940 --> 00:49:41.519 all, the FCC is not trying to get rid of us. 00:49:41.519 --> 00:49:46.320 They actually like us. We are a service of theirs. 00:49:47.119 --> 00:49:50.179 They look kindly upon us and they really want 00:49:50.179 --> 00:49:54.019 to make it possible for us to operate. And so 00:49:54.019 --> 00:49:57.219 they tailored all these rules so they aren't 00:49:57.219 --> 00:50:00.699 impossible and it's not gonna cost us an arm 00:50:00.699 --> 00:50:08.199 and a leg to do this testing. We are a valued 00:50:08.199 --> 00:50:11.440 service and they're just trying to make sure 00:50:11.440 --> 00:50:14.719 that we follow some very simple rules to make 00:50:14.719 --> 00:50:18.719 sure that people don't get overexposed. You don't 00:50:18.719 --> 00:50:21.760 have to buy special test equipment. You don't 00:50:21.760 --> 00:50:24.880 have to spend a lot of money. You probably don't 00:50:24.880 --> 00:50:27.260 even have to spend a lot of time for most stations. 00:50:28.119 --> 00:50:31.420 So don't get too excited. Don't get too upset. 00:50:33.039 --> 00:50:36.320 Keep operating. Run some simple calculations. 00:50:36.500 --> 00:50:38.219 After you've done it, you'll say, what was I 00:50:38.219 --> 00:50:40.920 so worried about? And then you'll be done for 00:50:40.920 --> 00:50:43.000 the next however many years till they make the 00:50:43.000 --> 00:50:50.460 next rule of change. Yeah, I agree with that. 00:50:50.860 --> 00:50:55.179 It's much ado about almost nothing and a lot 00:50:55.179 --> 00:50:58.699 of people are overly worried and I recommend 00:50:58.699 --> 00:51:03.420 use the online calculators. Get a feeling of 00:51:03.420 --> 00:51:07.000 what your station is doing. Print out the results 00:51:07.000 --> 00:51:09.340 and stick it in the drawer and you're good to 00:51:09.340 --> 00:51:14.099 go. If you want to get more into this you can 00:51:14.099 --> 00:51:20.150 look at The FCC OAT 65B document, which is how 00:51:20.150 --> 00:51:23.489 to determine compliance for ham radio people 00:51:23.489 --> 00:51:28.230 primarily. Ed Hare wrote the book RF Exposure 00:51:28.230 --> 00:51:33.510 and You in 1998. About 90 % of that is still 00:51:33.510 --> 00:51:36.389 perfectly accurate and usable. It's a great book. 00:51:36.889 --> 00:51:39.130 Really, really soup to nuts on what you need 00:51:39.130 --> 00:51:42.030 to know. And it's also available for free in 00:51:42.030 --> 00:51:46.300 a PDF form from the ARRL website. It is, yeah. 00:51:47.360 --> 00:51:52.460 And the ARRL has a RF exposure page, and all 00:51:52.460 --> 00:51:55.159 this stuff is linked to that. And if you're still 00:51:55.159 --> 00:51:59.280 bamboozled about all of this, the ARRL Technical 00:51:59.280 --> 00:52:02.599 Information Service can help you. And you can 00:52:02.599 --> 00:52:06.800 email them at tas .arl .org. But it's really 00:52:06.800 --> 00:52:11.059 simple, very slight change on May 3rd. Most people 00:52:11.059 --> 00:52:16.480 are already compliant. Did your exclusion or 00:52:16.480 --> 00:52:18.360 figure your compliance up before then you're 00:52:18.360 --> 00:52:25.239 good to go and You know have fun Well some great 00:52:25.239 --> 00:52:28.500 stuff from both of you I appreciate you being 00:52:28.500 --> 00:52:31.719 here and Hopefully putting some people's minds 00:52:31.719 --> 00:52:34.579 at ease about all of this because it has been 00:52:34.579 --> 00:52:39.199 the hot topic lately and You know, people are 00:52:39.199 --> 00:52:41.559 concerned about, you know, oh my gosh, do I need 00:52:41.559 --> 00:52:46.199 to do this or do that? And I think you've given 00:52:46.199 --> 00:52:52.059 folks some great ideas here of just, you know, 00:52:53.119 --> 00:52:55.739 what they do need to do and what they really 00:52:55.739 --> 00:52:59.659 don't need to do. And I think that's going to 00:52:59.659 --> 00:53:01.960 put some people's minds at ease. So thank you 00:53:01.960 --> 00:53:06.159 both for that. You're quite welcome. You're very 00:53:06.159 --> 00:53:10.340 welcome, Neil. Thank you. All right. Well, we're 00:53:10.340 --> 00:53:14.099 going to finish things up here tonight. So I 00:53:14.099 --> 00:53:18.059 want to thank again, Dr. Greg Lapin in 9GL and 00:53:18.059 --> 00:53:21.780 Dan Brown, W1DN, DAN, and everybody out there 00:53:21.780 --> 00:53:25.860 in cyberspace for listening and typing in. And 00:53:25.860 --> 00:53:29.460 again, we're going to take a little bit of a 00:53:29.460 --> 00:53:35.000 pause here to get everything moved. So we'll 00:53:35.000 --> 00:53:39.690 be back June 10th. For another episode of ham 00:53:39.690 --> 00:53:42.889 talk live. We're taking the home office from 00:53:42.889 --> 00:53:46.110 Wahoo, Nebraska for those of you get the reference 00:53:46.110 --> 00:53:50.050 It's not really Wahoo, Nebraska, but from Bloomington, 00:53:50.050 --> 00:53:54.409 Indiana then we'll be over in Union, Kentucky 00:53:54.409 --> 00:53:57.809 just across the river from Cincinnati from that 00:53:57.809 --> 00:54:01.010 for the next episode and the following episodes 00:54:01.010 --> 00:54:06.929 of ham talk live so enjoy some of the reruns 00:54:06.929 --> 00:54:11.809 over on WTWW the next couple of weeks. And then 00:54:11.809 --> 00:54:15.590 we'll be back June 10th with another live episode. 00:54:16.250 --> 00:54:19.090 So for a list of our upcoming guests, just go 00:54:19.090 --> 00:54:21.429 to hamtalklive .com. And if you like the show, 00:54:21.570 --> 00:54:24.289 please leave us a review. That helps others find 00:54:24.289 --> 00:54:28.110 us faster. So for now, this is Neil Rapp, WB9VPG, 00:54:28.210 --> 00:54:31.510 saying seven three, seven five, and may the good 00:54:31.510 --> 00:54:44.559 DX be yours. Well you came right back to my secure 00:54:44.559 --> 00:54:48.219 call Your readability five and strength nine 00:54:48.219 --> 00:54:52.980 You never once mentioned your weather at all 00:54:52.980 --> 00:54:58.159 And I didn't mention mine We talked and talked 00:54:58.159 --> 00:55:00.039 for hours and hours