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we go, welcome to Hamtop Live Call in, let's
talk, Neil's your guide Hamtop Live, here we
go on Hamtop Live Good evening, everyone. It's
time for HamTalk Live. It's episode number 267.
Why should I buy a remote antenna tuner? Recorded
live on Thursday, August 12th, 2021. I'm your
host, Neil Rapp, WB9VPG. Thanks for tuning in.
This episode of HamTalk Live. Tonight we're joined
by John Portun, W6NBC. and we'll take your calls
live in a little bit. Last week here on the show,
Karen Eve Murray, Katie2GUT was here to talk
about the latest news from Amateur Radio Newsline.
And if you missed that show, you can listen anytime
at HamTalkLive .com or on your favorite podcast
app or on YouTube, or you can catch the rebroadcast
of Ham talk live on WTWW that's 5085 on the AM
dial Saturday afternoons at about 3 30 p .m.
Eastern Time So get your questions ready to go
here about the remote antenna tuners If you're
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it in Whatever works for you, but I'll go ahead
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the show The number is eight five nine 9 8 2
73 73 again that's 8 5 9 9 8 2 73 73 you can
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and I will be back with John right after this
word from tower electronics right here on ham
talk live Thanks for choosing Tower Electronics.
How may we help you today? We have PL259s, we
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You're listening to HamTalk Live with Neil Rapp.
ham talk live tonight John fortune w6 in BC joins
us on the Orlando amateur radio club and hamcation
hotline John's been a ham since 1965 and active
on 160 meters all the way up to 2 .4 gigahertz
and helps people get licensed and helps new licensees
further their ham radio experience. He manages
a remote base on HF and VHF at Vandenberg Air
Force Base, does a lot of local 2 meter and 40
meter mobile from his RV and he's married to
KF -6 OEB. has three married children 12 grandchildren
John retired in 2002 Spent most of his time working
at his call reflects KNBC in Los Angeles and
also Ampex Corporation and Sony Electronics which
all of us former broadcasters will recognize
those companies. So John, welcome back and tonight
we're talking about some antenna tuners. Indeed,
one of my favorite topics. Alright, so you asked
the question, why should I buy a remote antenna
tuner? So let's take a look at why we should
do that. What are the advantages to doing a remote
antenna tuner? Well, it's not so much as much
advantage. It's more a necessity and that's something
that many hams don't realize. Auto tuners in
general, of course, have been around for a long
time. We know them very well. But to a large
degree tuners are still rather mysterious to
many hams. They believe a lot of myths about
them and often use them incorrectly. Part of
the reason they do that is because they lack
a clear understanding of two things, that there
are two classes of tuners and two classes of
antennas, and that these must be properly matched.
I can go into that in a minute, but that's an
introduction to this thing. We can go into those
two topics here in a second. Yeah, sure. So yeah,
that was one of the things that Definitely want
to get into you know, I've got this nice little
little automatic antenna tuner inside of my rig
Why do I need something else and? There are times
when you need that something else Absolutely,
well if we if we look at tuners in general as
they appear today For a long time, they've been
pretty stable from early on in ham radio. But
if we look at tuners today, there are two different
kinds or two different classes of tuners. Ones
that you have in your shack that sit right next
to your rig. I have a couple of them sitting
up there. And ones that you put out at the antenna.
Those are the newbies on the block for most hams.
And most hams are not very aware. of why they
would want to do that, why they would even want
to put an antenna tuner out there. Seems to most
hams, all I need is one antenna tuner in the
shack, and it'll do everything for me. For example,
I'm thinking about an MFJ Versa tuner that I
have, nice big three kilowatt thing, works very
well sitting here in the shack, and it's a very
good tuner. But I also think, as you mentioned,
about Antenna tuners built into the rig. People
say, oh, well, I bought that fancy radio and
it's got an antenna tuner in there. That's all
I ever need. Oh, no, that is not true. And also
recently other in -shack tuners, auto tuners
have appeared. For example, Palstar has a beautiful
big one. MFJ has a new one. LDG makes a good
one. I have an LDG 1000 auto tuner here in the
shack. And that's what people think, that there's
a universal tuner that they can use everywhere.
That's just not true. And it's because of the
second topic, which I'll mention here in a minute.
Well, you know, what are the times, when does
that little nice little tuner button on your
radio not cut, you know, cut the mustard here?
Where does it not? Is it not sufficient? Well,
Ham's began learning about this back some years
ago when SGC introduced the first remote auto
tuner. Or when ICOM brought out the little AH4,
which I've used very successfully in my mobile
to tune up a CB whip on all bands. Had some great
shootouts with all sorts of fancy screwdrivers.
They work well. people like MFJ got into the
market. But the big reason for a remote autotuner
is that there are two classes of antennas. This
is kind of new to most amps. And the two classes
of antennas, and they pretty much match the tuner
types in rig and in shack and at the base. They
pretty much match these two classes of antennas.
Those antennas are resonant antennas. and non
-resonant antennas. Let's think about those two
for a minute here. Let's consider resonant antennas,
because this is the kind of antennas most hams
today are used to. Our pioneers back in the 20s
understood non -resonant antennas better. But
today, most hams expect to have a resonant antenna.
What's a resonant antenna? It's one that you
can hook a SWR analyzer to. and no matter what
band you put it on that it's made for, it'll
show you pretty close to a 1 to 1 SWR. A good
example might be a big beam that you would buy,
or perhaps a spider beam, or maybe you've got
a 5BTV from Hustler that has some traps in it.
You hook an antenna analyzer to those guys on
the bands that they're made for, they'll show
you a low SWR. That's a resonant antenna. But
now what's the other kind of an antenna? And
this is the new one to a lot of hams. They only
think in terms of resonant antennas. And by the
way, another common resonant antenna is just
a simple dipole that you've used the magic formula
and cut it to length. That's a resonant antenna.
It's tuned to a resonant frequency. But what
are non -resonant antennas? That's kind of a
misnomer to many hams. Well, the military uses
them frequently. or they'll put random whips
on the back of their Humvees. And there, they've
got a non -resonant antenna, and yet they use
it on all HF bands. How do they do that? They
do it with a coupler or a matching box or a remote
autotuner. Another example of a non -resonant
antenna. And have you guys out there ever thought
about running a loop or wire around the edge
of your house? And of course, a lot of people
ask me about that one. Well, that's another non
-resonant antenna. You can't hook an antenna
analyzer to that loop of wire running around
your house and get a low SWR. Or have you ever
put up just the same, put up one of those windsock
flag poles and run a bit of wire up it and try
to use that as an antenna? Well, sure. Well,
it can be, but it's a non -resonant antenna.
To conclude this for a moment, Other non -resonant
antennas that hams are now using more frequently
and are becoming used to using, random long wires.
They're non -resonant antennas. They're not tuned
up on a given frequency. Zeps, windhams, off
-center fed dipoles. These are all non -resonant
antennas except at a few spots. or another example
of a non -resonant antenna is suppose you put
up a 40 meter dipole you'd say hey I want to
make a contact on 20 meters and you grab your
antenna tuner and you tune it up. That's a non
-resonant antenna. Well, we'll let Neil comment
here and then I'll move on and we'll talk about
the most typical non -resonant antenna. if you've
got something that's kind of close those little
you know those the little antenna tuner button
does a wonderful job but but uh when the the
impedance is is all out of whack it just doesn't
doesn't go so let's talk a little bit about um
you know again the the advantages to um putting
this this thing outside and doing doing the remote
and and making that work Sure Well, let's consider
a typical Non -resonant antennas that a lot of
hams are using they now almost considered magical
43 foot vertical with radials a lot of hams think
oh, that's a super antenna. Well, it is a good
antenna But you've got to remember, it's a non
-resonant antenna. You cannot, now let me emphasize
that, put it in quotes, you cannot hook coax
directly to a 43 -foot vertical with radials
and have it work correctly. Why is that? Well,
if as I've done, you take easy neck and you make
an SWR plot across the HF, you'll see that a
43 -foot vertical is only resonant at roughly
five and a half megahertz, roughly about 17 megahertz,
and it is resonant at 10 meters. That's the only
band you could hook a coax directly to a 43 foot
vertical and get it to work right. All other
ham bands, it's very much non -resonant. It's
a very, very odd impedance, all sorts of reactants
present there. So the 43 foot vertical is a classic
example of where you need a tuner at the base.
Okay, so it all comes down to loss. You know,
we were talking before the show, you're never,
ever, ever going to totally, totally, absolutely
get rid of loss. It's a matter of how much loss
are you willing to live with? Yes, that's indeed
true. Well, that's kind of where this goes. Yeah.
Sure. Lots of hams believe that there are two
ways to use a tuner. You can either put it at
the rig. or you can put it out at the antenna.
Both of those ways are valid places to use it.
But the only way that both of those work correctly
is when you have a resonant antenna out there,
one that the manufacturer has made to be a low
SWR at the bands you're using it on. And if you
do that, you'll have low loss in the coax between
your rig and the antenna. with the tuner either
at the shack or out at the antenna, if it's a
resonant antenna out there. But let's suppose
we put a non -resonant antenna out there, such
as my 20 -foot flagpole, which has become almost
a byword here recently. Anyway, and it's a non
-resonant antenna. You can't hook a coax to it
or hook your antenna analyzer to it and get a
1 to 1 SWR on any ham band with a 20 -foot flagpole.
And if you do that, you put a non -resonant antenna
out there, now you have a different situation.
Now there's high loss if the tuner is in the
shack. And where is the loss? It's not in the
tuner, it's in the coax. You remember Albert
Einstein said, the universe abhors a vacuum?
Well, the truth is, that coax abhors high SWR.
So if you put your tuner in the shack and a long
run of coax out to a non -resonant antenna where
there's going to be high SWR due to that non
-resonant antenna, there's going to be terrible
loss in the coax. I can give you some numbers
here in a minute to prove that. Okay, well...
You know if you're if you're going to reduce
that loss and you're gonna make this work it
sounds like the the remote is is the way to go
and You know it also kind of simplifies things
in the shack Well as far as I'm concerned Of
course you could use a remote autotuner for anything
for any any antenna Resonant or non resonant
it would work fine But if you do have a non -resonant
antenna, and that's what hams need to think about,
is what kind of an antenna have I got out there.
They need to realize that the loss takes place
in the coax. Let me give you an example. I've
got some numbers here, so I'm going to have to
enlarge a little bit so I can see them. Oh, come
on. I hate it when you try to do things too quickly
here. OK, let's get this zoomed up a little bit
here. There we go. All right. Now, if you use,
let's say, a variety of common coaxes and open
wire feeder line, and you use 100 feet of it,
and you put 100 watts into it, how much power
can you expect to get out at the other end? Well,
if you look in the handbook, you'll see some
loss figures for coax, and they're true, but
they're only true if the SWR in that coax is
one -to -one. The published figures are not for
coax at higher SWRs. For example, I'll go through
the quick set of numbers here. If you use RG58,
which is relatively bad coax, and 100 feet of
that, you'll get 85 watts out at the other end
on 80 meters. Maybe if you use LMR 400, which
is a great low loss coax, you'll get 95 watts
out at the other end. And if you use 450 ohm
ladder line, you'll get 99 watts out at the other
end. 300 ohm ribbon line, you'll get 96 watts
at the other end. But let's take a look at these
same coaxes if you allow that antenna out there
to cause SWR in the line because it's non -resonant.
Let's put a 10 to 1 SWR, and that's easy for
a non -resonant antenna to generate. If you do
that, RG58 is only going to put 55 watts out
at the other end. LMR400 will put only 79 watts
out. You have to go down to 600 ohm coax before
you get most of the power out. Well, let's talk
about 100 to 1 SWR. You say, oh, I never have
100 to 1 SWR. Sure you do. All sorts of non -resonant
antennas. All sorts of non -resonant antennas
like that 43 foot vertical will show you 100
to 1 SWR on the ham bands. If you have 100 feet
of these coaxes at 100 to 1 SWR, which you can
easily get with a non -resonant antenna, If you
use RG58, you're going to get 11 watts out. If
you use RG8X, you're going to get 14 watts out.
If you use RGH, you're going to get 28 watts
out. LMR400, 28 watts. If you use 300 ohm ribbon,
you're going to get 31 watts. I think you can
see the picture that's developing here. And by
the way, let's notice something. People think
our open wire line is lossless. They think, oh,
well, I just run open wire line out to that non
-resonant antenna. No, I'm reading you the amount
of power you're going to get out right here.
And notice the figures here. Look at the loss
in 100 feet of 300 ohm twin lead. People think,
oh, that's no loss in that. No way, Jose, plenty
of loss in 300 ohm twin lead. It's the same loss
as in high quality coax, like LMR400. So don't
kid yourself. 300 ohm ribbon line is not lossless.
Even 600 ohm open wire line, you're still only
going to get three fourths of the power out if
the SWR is 100 to 1. So you can see the loss.
that most people have, and the reason that antenna
tuner belongs out at the antenna, not in the
shack, when you're running non -resonant antennas,
is because of the line loss. COEX hates the SWR
that non -resonant antenna will generate. Yes,
that 43 -foot vertical's a great antenna, great
radiation pattern, but not if you try to feed
it directly with COEX. No way, Jose. Those numbers
speak very loudly whenever you're talking 80,
90 % loss. You're pretty much down to QRP, but
you're still not even radiating anything. That's
not to say that a QRP rig won't make contacts.
I'm sure many of you have. I like to say my QRP
rig has a pair of 3 -500s in the output. I'm
not one of these hams that thinks I've got to
get down to the most lowest power I can possibly
get. Anyway, even though the FCC says I should.
Anyway, the conclusion of this talk, and we can
wrap it up here except for one myth that I want
to conclude with here. The conclusion is, if
you have a non -resonant antenna, 43 foot vertical,
a long wire, a off -center -fed dipole, a Zep
or a Carolina Windham or whatever, that hasn't
been already given some kind of tuning to make
it resonant, you need the tuner out there, not
in the shack. In fact, I've had people do the
nasty thing of trying to tune those kind of antennas
up through a long piece of coax with their auto
tuner in the rig, and because of that loss in
the line, They've blown up the autotuner in their
rig, so don't try using the autotuner in your
rig and a long piece of coax feeding a non -resonant
antenna. It's a terrible no -no. That'll release
the magic smoke. The magic smoke that makes all
things work. Alright, let's wrap this up here
today, Neil, with a final point. I've heard it
said many, many times from hams, and I've come
to the point of concluding that it's a myth.
It's a ham myth. And in fact, if you look in
any of the antenna books written by the antenna
experts, or like Jerry Sevick or McCoy or whatever,
you'll always find this quote, which many hams
don't believe. Many hams believe, I don't like
antenna tuners, they're lossy. No, they're not.
Don't believe that line. That's a myth. That's
a mistake. Antenna tuners are not lossing. They
have a little loss. Of course they do. But as
the QRZ forum said here, it says on their website,
usually tuner losses are very small if the tuner
is built using large high Q components, nice
big capacitors, nice big roller inductance. The
coil and the capacitors inside of a tuner, the
reactants that they use to create the tuning,
to match the things, reactants, the coil and
the capacitor has no loss to it. All that it
does is transform impedance. It's only any little
loss that there might be in the... in the coil
and so forth. It's very small. The losses most
hams think are due to the tuner is because they've
made the basic mistake, which we've been talking
about here, is that if you put the tuner in the
shack, use a long run of coax and feed a non
-resonant antenna or try to tune up an antenna
on a band that it wasn't designed for, The loss
in the coax is where you're going to see the
loss. So it's the coax that's eating your power,
not the tuner. And that's a big ham myth, which
I hope maybe a few people listening tonight might
take to heart. Well, very interesting stuff.
I haven't tried the remote tuner yet, but you're,
you're convincing me that this is, uh, this is
something I need to, uh, to explore. So, uh,
many hams do give it a shot. Yeah. And, and,
and, and a few thousand of my friends. Yes. So
we'll, uh, take a break here and when we come
back we're going to take your questions about
all of this your calls uh... the phone number
again is eight five nine nine eight two seventy
three seventy three will give that number out
again here in just a little bit uh... but we
would like to take your calls your questions
and uh... will also check uh... the tweets at
ham talk live and uh... and see what you have
to say about all of this so we'll be back with
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Join the conversation. Give us a call at 859
-982 -7373. Again, the number to call is 859
-982 -7373. Or, if you'd rather type than talk,
tweet us at HamTalk Live. Now, here's Neil Rapp
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Talk Live with Neil Rapp. Welcome back to HamTalk
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And before we get back to John and your calls,
which again give us a call 859 -982 -7373 or
tweet us at HamTalkLive but before we do that
As we do each week, it's time for the N9GSU Joke
of the Week. Now it's time for the HamTalk Live
Ham Radio Joke of the Week, the part of the show
where Rick tells us a ham radio joke. The HamTalk
Live Ham Radio Joke of the Week is brought to
you by QRM Labs. Now, here's Rick Garrett, N9GSU,
with today's HamTalk Live Joke of the Week. I
was at the Indianapolis Ham Fest this weekend
and decided to take a poll. The people in the
vendor tent were not very happy with me. This
has been the Ham Talk Live. Ham radio joke of
the week with Rick Garrett in 9GSU. Tune in again
next week for another joke from Rick. Well, they
may not have been real happy with Rick there
taking a poll, but anyway. Thank you, Rick. We'll
check in with Rick again next week. But right
now, it is time for your phone call. So if you
have a question for our guest, John Portun, W6NBC,
give us a call right now at 859 -982 -7373. Again,
it's 859. 9827373 or you can tweet us. It's at
am talk live or if you have something on To say
on Spreaker you can do that in the comments and
that'll pop up on the screen here So we'll see
what what questions we have here And and while
we're looking at that, you know you talked about
You know, the off -center. I think the off -center
is kind of a commonly used non -resonant antenna.
Any idea what kind of numbers we're talking here
versus or between a radio autotuner and then
doing this remote autotuner outside? Well, if
you feed the off -center fed long wire, which
is a good antenna, I've had good results with
them, you do want to feed it with the widest
possible open wire line you can. make some 600
ohm line but certainly 450 ohm ladder line at
the very least don't try to feed it with 300
ohm ribbon in fact if you can run 600 ohm stuff
use some of that that ladder that that stuff
you can build it what is it called i forgot makes
nice 600 ohm line use that and use as little
as possible you don't have to put the tuner right
up at the antenna you know 30 40 feet of of 600
ohm open wire line from the tuner up to it isn't
going to lose you a lot, a few watts maybe on
the upper bands, but that would be fine. Although
I've seen people mount these auto tuners right
up at the feed point, particularly with an inverted
V or something like that. I wouldn't I wouldn't
fear using 50 feet of 600 ohm open wire line
from the from the tuner up to the thing. But
but don't try to run 100 feet of RG 58. Yeah,
yeah, definitely. That that's just that's just
not not going to cut it. All right. Well, let's
again. Open up phone lines eight five nine nine
eight two seventy three seventy three or tweet
us or comment in the chat here if you have a
question or comment for for John w6 NBC we're
talking about some antenna tuners tonight and
and and I guess the other the other myth while
we're talking about antenna tuners is is that
you know somehow this is Magically going to make
that antenna resonant Well, I like to think of
the antenna as basically everything following
the transceiver. That's the antenna system. So
does an antenna that has an antenna tuner associated
with it work poorer than one that has coils and
capacitors and stuff in the antenna? No, doesn't
work worse. Because remember, the tuner, if properly
placed, does not have any loss to speak of. Very,
very little loss. So a lot of hams think, well,
unless that coil and that capacitor or that stub
is up in that antenna, it's no good. That's not
true. The tuner does just, that coil and that
capacitor and that stub or that capacity you've
had is the tuner that that non -resonant piece
of wire up there is using. So it is a myth to
me that antenna tuners are a worse choice than
the antenna that the manufacturer has built resonant
because he's essentially built the tuner into
the antenna and it has the same losses. Okay,
very good. Well, we're watching here. I haven't
seen any questions yet, so I'll keep looking
here. Before we go, which we just have a few
minutes left, so if you're going to call, you
need to do that now at 859 -982 -7373. I know
you've got another project that you're working
on. We don't want to give away too much because
you're going to have an article about this coming
up. What's your next project here? Well, one
of the things that I have been working on and
which I will be speaking on, by the way, at the
QSO Today Expo in the Antenna Forum at 10 o 'clock
on Saturday, is an interesting topic to me that
I've had a lot of fun with, and that's to use
copper tape and aluminum foil tape to make antennas
instead of aluminum rod or wire, which is what
most hams think about. And I've got several ones,
including a cute little, which I'm looking at
it right now, a cute little indoor antenna for
when you're sitting in your easy chair with your
HT and you're trying to talk to your buddies
on the repeater with your rubber ducky. And they
say, hey, get a real radio. And this is a little
this is a little flower pot antenna. It's a helical.
It's a helically loaded flower pot. with a fake
antenna in it that has gained remarkably close
to a J -pole. And it's a lot better looking,
as far as the XYL is concerned, than trying to
hide that ugly J -pole over in the corner. But
I've got several other helical antennas which
were inspired by the article I had recently on
that a little short two meter shortened antenna
that was shortened with copper tape. I've been
pushing those down onto the HF bands and remarkably,
they work remarkably well. I've got a little
birdhouse antenna. Snoopy and Woodstock sit on
top of a birdhouse on top of a 10 meter helically
wound thing that's wound on a piece of... downspout
gutter pipe. So there's a lot you can do with
aluminum and copper foil tape in making antennas
and I'll be speaking on that at the QSO Today
Forum 10 o 'clock on Saturday. Don't forget about
the QSO Today Expo coming up this weekend so
make sure you check that out and John will be
there as will others talking about a variety
of things. Make sure you stop by there and I
know John always has some very creative antenna
ideas and you know, you put Snoopy and Woodstock
on there. The HOA may not be knocking on your
door quite so quickly. Oh, they love it. The
neighbors want to know where I got him. They
don't know that he's sitting on top of a 10 meter
antenna. There you go. So the stealth works for
sure. And I may have to get into that now that
I'm living inside of an HOA for the first time.
May have to resort to some of those. I'm hoping
they will listen, but we'll see how it goes.
Well, John, thank you so much for coming on the
show and talking about these remote autotuners
and hopefully some people heard what you were
saying and have some new ideas for some new ways
to make the shack better. So thanks so much.
Oh, it's my pleasure. And I know maybe in some
cases what I had to say is not exactly what people
wanted to hear. In fact, I've. noted that for
quite a long time with the 20 -foot flagpole.
People don't want to hear, I gotta put that toner
out there. Anyway, but unfortunately that's basic
physics. Thanks for having me, Neil, and we'll
see you sometime later. All right, John Portun,
W6NBC, thank you so much. for being here. That
is a wrap for this week's edition of HamTalk
Live. So thanks to John and everybody out there
in cyberspace for listening tonight and all the
people over in the the speaker chat, Jill and
Chris. Thanks for being there as you often are
and hope things are going well for you. And we'll
be back next week. on Thursday night at 9 p .m.
Eastern Time. Don Wilbanks, AE5DW will be back
and alongside Don will be Faith Hannah Lee, KD3Z
and they will be here to talk about the Newsline
Young Ham of the Year award. So make sure you
tune in next week for that. For a list of all
of our upcoming guests go to hamtalklive .com
and if you like the show, please leave us a review
Wherever you listen that helps others find the
show faster. So for now, this is Neil Rapp WB9VPG
saying seven three seven five and may the good
DX be yours Well you came right back to my CQ
call Your readability 5 and strength 9 You never
once mentioned your weather