This episode of HamTalk Live is brought to you
by Tower Electronics. For connectors, cables,
and more, call 920 -435 -2973 or visit pl -259
.com. And by ICOM, heard it, worked it, logged
it. Visit www .icomamerica .com slash amateur
for more information about ICOM radios. with
neoprap here we go welcome to amtoply calling
let's talk neils your guy amtoply Hey everybody,
I'm back. It's HamTalk Live episode number 312,
Toroids and Balans, recorded on Sunday, January
29th, 2023. I'm your host, Neil Rapp, WB9VPG.
Thanks for tuning in to this episode of HamTalk
Live. Today we're joined by John Portun, W6NBC.
And last episode, Michael Colley, W4ORL, and
Mike Banigan, KJ4UDO, were here to talk about
the Orlando hamcation. And that's just a couple
of weeks off. the award winners from the hamcation
committee uh so if you missed that show you can
listen anytime over at ham talk live dot com
or on your favorite podcast app or on youtube
well i do have uh several quick announcements
here before we get to talking to uh john about
uh what do you need to know about toroids and
balans and what what can you do with them and
what How do you make them work right? Well, we'll
get to that here in a little bit, but here are
a few things that that you can do in the meantime.
First of all, the AM rally is returning to the
HF and six meter bands for the sixth year. That
is starting on Friday, February 3rd, and it's
just to encourage the use of AM on 160, 80, 40,
20, 15, 10 and six meters. uh... just to highlight
some various types of a m equipment that's in
use today it's open to any and all radio amateurs
running full carrier amplitude modulation standard
a m any kind of radio equipment new old whatever
uh... this year's event is from zero hundred
zulu saturday february fourth uh... which is
friday night uh... seven p m eastern if you're
in the eastern time zone so zero hundred zulu
saturday zero seven hundred zulu on monday february
six so uh... that uh... 2 a .m. Eastern on on
Monday So that way we have it a little later
for the the West Coast people so again zero hundred
Saturday to zero seven hundred on Monday February
6 more information available at a am rally a
are a M R a ll y calm So make sure you check
that out. Also, Carole Perry, our friend WB2MGP,
is accepting nominations for the Young Ham Lens
the Hand contest until April 1st. And that winner
will receive a $100 stipend and will be announced
at the Youth Forum at the Dayton Hamvention.
This is what she needs. She needs name, call
sign, age, address, telephone number, and why
this nominee is deserving of the award. So just
a paragraph or two about what this young ham
has been doing to lend a hand. And that may be,
you know, Involve Ham Radio may not, but they're
ham and they're helping out. So you can email
that information, name, call sign, age, address,
cell number. home number, if there's one, and
why they're deserving of the award to WB2MGP,
that's Whiskey Bravo 2, MikeGolfPapa at gmail
.com by April 1st. And they'll announce those
again at the Youth Forum at Hamvention. And then
the last thing, there's a special event that's
looking to grow. and we may talk about it here
on the show later on when it gets closer to time
but the Elmer special event is looking for some
operators. This is the Whiskey One Echo special
event and it honors Elmers who have helped us
along the way here in Ham Radio and the organizers
know there's a lot more stories out there about
Elmer's and lots of thank yous to share for Elmer's
so it's going to start on September 29th, but
if you are thinking about you know the why and
how you where you are now an amateur radio now's
the time uh... to let rich know uh... and maybe
you can be uh... one of the operators for this
special event so uh... you can contact him at
marzo seven zero eight eight that's M A R Z O
seven zero eight eight marzo seven zero eight
eight at yahoo dot com so uh... We'll hear more
about that later, and that's also featured on
Amateur Radio Newsline this week, so make sure
you check that out. Alright, well, enough of
the announcements. I'll be back with John. We'll
talk toroids right after this word from Tower
Electronics right here on HamTalk Live. His two
cents is worth $37 in change. He once ran a marathon.
because it was on his way to Dayton. He works
FT8 by ear. He once worked North Korea on every
band in one minute using only a microwatt. He
slowed down his code speed to work a de -expedition.
to 200 words a minute. He is, indeed, the most
interesting ham in the world. I don't always
put on my own PL -259s, but when I do, I prefer
them from Tower Electronics. Stay resident, my
friends. Tower Electronics has all the adapters,
cables, connectors, and yes, PL -259s you need
at a ham fest near you. Or visit PL -259 .com.
And coming up on the tower electronics ham fest
schedule they will be at or the Orlando hamcation
February 10th 11th and 12th then February 25th
will be in Dalton, Georgia March 4th, Cave City,
Kentucky March 19th, Maumee, Ohio and March 25th
in Milwaukee, Wisconsin But you can visit them
from anywhere at PL -259 .com Who is the most
dangerous person in the world? A ham with some
wire, a potato gun and an idea. Ham Talk Live!
Welcome back to Ham Talk Live! Today, John Portun,
W6NBC, joins us on the Orlando Amateur Radio
Club and hamcation Zoom line. John's been a ham
since 1965 and he's active on everything. 160
meters to two and a half gigahertz and helps
people get on the air and new licensees. He manages
a remote base. He does a lot of 2 meter and 40
meters from his RV and he's married to KF6OEB
and has three children, twelve grandchildren,
retired in 2002. Spent most of his career working
at KNBC in Los Angeles as well as Ampex and Sony
and he's a frequent contributor to QST magazine
and we're today we're talking about some toroid.
So John, welcome back to the show. Thanks for
being here. Oh, it's my pleasure, Neil. Always
welcome. Always glad to chat about ham radio.
Oh, yeah. So it's something we can't get out
of our blood. It stays there. I appreciate all
your talks here today and we're going to do a
new one here for us about toroids. But before
I get to that, I do want to mention that John
has club presentations available. He's got a
whole list of Things to talk about PowerPoint
presentations and all kinds of things and you
have a new email address So if people are trying
to get a hold of you to do one of these club
presentations tell Everybody how they get a hold
of you Yes, indeed. Well, first of all you go
to my website W6nbc .com and it will tell you
all about how to sign up for a free zoom presentation
to be made in your radio club or if you're putting
on an expo someplace, a ham expo, and you'd like
to have a presentation on a ham topic. And as
Neil says, I do have quite a number of topics
which are being presented around the country
and in fact around the world, almost any of the
English speaking part of the world, South Africa,
New Zealand, Australia, UK, I've been making
presentations there by Zoom. And they've been
pretty well received. So if you'd like to make
presentations, just get on the website and it'll
tell you how. And you send me an email, we'll
sign you up and give your club a presentation
by Zoom. It's a great fun. Sure is. And make
sure you check the website for that new email
address because if you use the old one, you may
not get too far. Well, we're going to talk about
some some ferrites, the toroids, all that fun
stuff today. First, let's start off talking about
what's a toroid? What does it do? Well, a toroid
is just a ring inductor, just a magnetic ring
that's used to make inductors. But its principal
use in ham radio is to make balance. We know
about balans by name, and of course we use them
typically, but not too many hams are really aware
of how to make a balan from a toroid, how to
pick out a toroid, and then how to wind a wire
onto it to make a balan. And that's pretty much
the topic that is one of the common topics that
I talk about and I'm frequently lecturing on.
Now, if you're going to go get a toroid for a
certain application, how do you pick that? What
kind of mix do you have? What kind of size? How
do you pick out the right one for the job? Okay,
there are two things you need to keep in mind
when picking out a toroid. the mix and the size
of the toroid. And the mix determines the frequency
that you're going to operate the ballon on. And
that really there are only three choices of mix
in picking out a toroid. And they are mix 31,
mix 43. These are the HF mixes. Now you might
find a lot of variation looking in the books
and so forth, but if you're picking out a toroid,
mix 31 and mix 43 are the ones you want to pick.
They're the HF toroid. Now a lot of hams swear
by the 31 mix, but it's no better than the 43
mix. even though a lot of hams think it is. It
just doesn't quite need as many turns. That's
the only reason. And the mix 61 mix is the VHF.
So you've only got three choices. 31, 43, 61.
31 and 43 are for HF, 61 is for VHF. So that's
picking it for the frequency. For the power,
you really only have two choices. You only have
two sizes that you need to be concerned about.
the 240 and the 140, which means 2 .4 inches,
1 .4 inches in diameter. The 240 will handle
pretty much a kilowatts and the 140 is pretty
much good for 100 watts. That's pretty much all
you need to do. So in picking out a toroid, you
pick out an FT, that's ferrite toroid, 240 or
140 for the power and then hyphen for either
31, 43, or 61 for the frequency. So again, if
you're picking on a 100 watt toroid for HF, FT240
43 would be a 2 .4 inch diameter toroid mix 43,
which means it would be a 1 kilowatt ferrite
for HF. That's the way you that's the way I pick
them out. It's pretty simple You don't have to
you don't have to get it make it really cut You
don't have to go to a lot of radio books look
up a lot of charts and a lot of graphs Although
you'll find them in the radio books. They're
more confusing than they are a help. You really
only have those three choices 31 43 or 61 and
you and that's pretty much all you need for ham
radio and then size 240 or size 140 for one kilowatt
or 100 watts and that's the only size toroids
you really basically need to ever pick out. And
this mix that we're talking about is the mix
of different substances that are put into making
this thing. So it's got iron in it and there's
a certain percentage of iron and these other
materials and so that Changes the number of turns
that you have to make to get it to work like
you want it. That's right the mix Ferrites are
Ferro ceramics or magnetic ceramics. It's a ceramic
just like your teacup. Just like just like your
china vase It's just clay baked in a kiln or
fired in a kiln. So it's a ceramic but it's got
It's got magnetic particles added into the clay
when it's fired, so it's a ferro -ceramic. And
depending upon how much of that ferro material
is put into the ceramic, determines how magnetic
or what its permeability, that's the technical
term, but you don't need to bury yourself in
technical terms in making balance. And you don't
need to worry about what kind of the material
it is, even though they'll go into great discussions
in the technical books and confuse you. You really
only need to pick ferrite. You don't need to
worry about iron powder or any of that kind of
stuff. Forget all of that stuff. For ham radio,
ferrite is what you want to pick. Don't worry
about iron powder. So ferrite, and only of those
three mixes, they're the only ones you'll ever
really be concerned about. 31, 43, or 61. And
43 or 31, you can use them interchangeably. The
31 is not any better than 43 for making a balance,
even though some people swear by 31. And no,
you don't need to do that. 43 works just as well.
And it's cheaper and more readily available,
by the way. and a lot of surplus 43 material
out there or 31 material yes is available but
it's not available surplus i buy i usually buy
surplus 43 ferrites and and by the way you can
buy them from ferrite they're the main company
that makes ferrite toroids in the United States.
And I thought, oh, you know, couldn't buy them
from them. You probably got to buy 10 ,000 of
these things from ferrite. No, you don't. They've
got a nice retail sales department. They'll sell
them to you just as well as ham radio outlet
will sell them to you or anybody else. So you
can just get on the Internet and buy them from
ferrite quite easily. Yep, and DX Engineering
even has the color -coded one, so you just look
at the color and see which one it is. Well, there's
all these toroids available, so this hopefully
simplifies your selection process. and how you're
going to use these. So let's dive in a little
bit here. We're going to take a break here in
just a few minutes, but let's dive in a little
bit to, okay, what do I use these things for?
What do I need these for? Well, you need them
to make a balance. And I'll only deal with this
briefly to one kind of big issue that I have,
and that is I don't like the name Because you
ask the average ham, what's the main purpose
of a ballot? Just that simple question. What
is the main purpose of a ballot? If you ask that
in a radio club nine out of ten times, you're
going to get the simple answer, which is not
really an answer as far as I'm concerned. And
the answer that you commonly get is, what's a
ballot for? Well, it's to make balanced into
unbalanced. But what does that mean? It really
doesn't mean that much to most people. I like
the term because it describes what a ballon does.
It chokes off the shield current on the outside.
I like to call these things outside shield current
chokes. That's what they really are. Because
here's the issue. A coax, a piece of coax, you
might think it's a two conductor transmission
line. No, it's not. It's a three conductor transmission
line. So where's the third conductor? The third
conductor is the outside of the shield. Because
of skin effect, the shield breaks up into two
separate conductors. The inside of the shield
and the outside of the shield. Skin effect separates
the shield into two separate conductors, very,
very distinctly. And current can flow on the
outside in the opposite direction, separately,
independently from current flowing on the inside
of coax. And that makes the shield into two separate
conductors. So coax is a three conductor transmission
line. But right at the end of coax, right where
coax ends, the skin effect also connects the
two of them to each other. So when you hook a
dipole or an antenna to the end of a piece of
coax, the currents coming back from the antenna
can go back. to the transmitter, which it has
to go back to the transmitter to complete the
circuit from the transmitter. But it can also
get on the outside of the shield. We know this.
We've heard about shield current. We don't want
this. Why? Why don't we want shield current?
because it can disrupt the whole antenna system.
Because we don't know where that outside shield
current is going to go. It can go back to ground.
It can go all sorts of nasty places. It can radiate.
It can do nasty things. We don't want... any
current on the outside of the shield, and that's
what the ballon is for. We want the ballon to
get rid of the outside shield current. We want
it to choke the current off of the outside of
the shield. That's what a ballon is for. So if
anybody asks you, what is a ballon for? Don't
answer to convert balance to unbalance. Answer
to get rid of the outside shield current. And
so that's what we use a toroid for. We wind enough
windings on the toroid to choke off that outside
shield current. The inductance of that coil chokes
off the shield current. It can't get through,
but it can get through on the inside. It's difficult
to explain this in words alone, but that's essentially
what a ballon does. It prevents the current from
getting onto the outside of the shield. It's
an outside shield choke, and that's what it's
for. But let's move on now next, maybe after
your break here, and let's move on to how you
determine how many windings to put on this toroid.
Yeah, we're going to take a break and that's
exactly where I was headed. Okay, now let's figure
out how many turns we need and what kind of antenna
we're going to make, but we'll do that after
the break here. So I will be back with John right
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Radio. We put the ham in Ham Talk Live. And welcome
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you know what's happening with the show. And
before we get back to John Portun, W6NBC, talking
about toroids and balance, it's time for another
N9GSU Joke of the Week. Now it's time for the
HamTalk Live Ham Radio Joke of the Week, the
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joke. The HamTalk Live Ham Radio Joke of the
Week is brought to you by QRM Labs. Now, here's
Rick Garrett in 9GSU with today's HamTalk Live
Joke of the Week. Mountain Dew is my drink of
choice when I'm doing parks on the air activations.
It gives me that extra shot of energy I need
for those long activations and my wife told me
that I was spending far too much time researching
Mountain Dew prices trying to find the cheapest.
I told her I was just doing my dew diligence.
This has been the ham talk live ham radio joke
of the week with Rick Heron in nine GSU Tune
in again next week for another joke from Rick
And we're back with John portune w6 NBC he is
here and to talk a little bit about uh... toroids
and balans and all this fun stuff and so we've
talked a little bit about uh... what a balan
is and what it does so now john how do i know
how many how many times to wrap this wire around
those things uh... to make the the kind of antenna
that i want Now that you've picked yourself a
toroid you picked a 240 or a 140 and you picked
a 43 or you picked a 31 mix for the power and
the size of the toroid. You've got the toroid
sitting in front of you. You want to know how
many turns to put on it, which will choke off
the outside shield current, because that's what
it is. It's an outside shield current choke.
That's its function in life. Balance to unbalance
is a meaningless kind of a term to me, as far
as I'm concerned. Yes, it does that. That's real.
But that doesn't help you visualize what it does.
What I recommend you do, you need to go to coil
32 or coil 64 and get that little calculator.
It's available free on the internet. And it will
have embedded in it a little calculator that
Amidon toroids, you've probably heard of Amidon
toroids. They're in Oceanside, California. They
sell toroids. They're a big seller of toroids.
Buy your toroids from them if you want. They
have a wonderful little calculator that does
the calculation for you of how many turns to
put on your toroid. you put on your toroid. It
lets you put the mix in, it lets you put the
size of the toroid, and then the third thing
it needs, it needs the inductance. How many microhenries
the toroid needs to have on it. And that's just
the thing you need to figure out. You need to
figure out how many microhenries you need on
that toroid, and that's quite easy to figure.
There's a fairly simple little little formula
that you can use. I should have written it down
here. I don't have it memorized. But you need
to calculate how many microhenries you need to
do. It's 1 over 2 pi f times the frequency in
inductance. 1 over 2 pi f L is the formula. You
need to figure out how many microhenries you
need. As I say, the number of microhenries is
1 divided by 2 pi times the frequency in hertz.
If you do it in microhenries, you can do it in
megahertz. And then you get the number of microhenries
that you need. And that needs to equal. 200 ohms
AC resistance. That's the amount of ohms you
need to have to choke off the current. Because
you're in a 50 ohm system, remember coax is 50
ohms, you need to have at least four times the
amount of resistance on the toroid. And that
needs to be about 200 ohms. You need to get 200
ohms of resistance, AC resistance in inductance.
in wire. And that little calculator that that
little calculator that's that that Amidon provides
and that calculator can be found at coil32 .net.
Again that's coil32 .net and go to the calculators
and there's one there for ferrites. Handier than
scat. Then it'll push the button it'll tell you
wind four turns or wind two turns. If you want
a good example if you want I'll see all of this
in writing. Look at the Look at the ARRL's publication
on the air. That's the Newby magazine. You know,
the Newby magazine that they publish every month,
every two months. The current issue of the Newby
magazine shows you how to do all of this. All
of this that I'm talking about here today, including
describing what a ballon does and so forth. The
Newby magazine has an article that I just wrote
showing you how to do that and showing you how
to get that calculator and where it is and all
of that stuff. It's all in this all in this current
issue of On The Air magazine, which you can get
a copy of just by going to the ARRL. And if you
remember and reading this month's issue of the
magazine on a FT 140 toroid. Alright, so we go
and get the calculator and we put in our frequency
and we figure out how many turns that we need
to wrap this wire around it and then where we
go from there. Well, then you stall the ballon
wherever your coax ends. Yep, okay. So it's time
to put up the antenna. You know, again, we've
got different ones for HF and VHF because you've
got a big gap in frequency coverage there. Yeah,
well, you need a different mix for the different
frequencies and you need a different number of
turns because it doesn't need as many turns at
VHF as it does at HF. And if you're building
it for lower frequency HF, you need more turns
and so forth. But the little calculator lets
you take care of that. Okay, very good. So yeah,
make sure you check out On The Air. Let's see,
we're recording this on January 29th of 2023.
Do you know if that's the... It's the current
one, which I think is... Ah, okay, okay. That
is the January and February 2023 issue of On
The Air Magazine, which is indeed the current
issue on arrl .org right now. Well, John, anything
else we should know about toroids today? Oh,
yes, I might mention that if you're making a
one -to -one or a four -to -one or a nine -to
-one balance for an end -fed long wire, the same
principles apply. You only need to concern yourself,
though, with the smaller winding. a smaller winding
that's the only one that needs to the calculator
only needs to be used on the smaller winding
because if you put on let's say two turns on
a nine to one and 18 turns on the on the other
side you know uh for the uh for the for the nine
the nine side of the the nine to one or a balance
You only need to concern yourself with the side
that connects to the coax, because that's where
you need the choking, is on the coax. You don't
need the choking on the antenna side. You need
the choking on the coax side of the balance.
A one -to -one is the same on both sides. Another
point I might make about winding ferrite balance
is the use of zip cord. Common zip cord is great
stuff for winding balance, because it lets you
wind the double winding that you always wind
on a toroid, one for the input, one for the output.
Because zip cord is pretty much 50 ohm. transmission
line it's very close to 50 ohm transmission line
it's amazing take your common extension cord
and cut a piece that's what I used in the current
article in on the air magazine was just a piece
of common extension cord and the little calculator
said wine four turns of it so I won four turns
of common zip cord hooked one end up to an SO
239 the other end to a couple of eye bolts and
we had a balance Yeah, that's a neat thing and
always helps when you can just use some stuff
laying around the house or Pick up the restore
or something like that, you know, you don't have
to have all the fancy stuff Well, the newbies
like that kind of stuff But Sam's we like cheap
too we do like cheap stuff Well, John, thank
you so much for being with us here to talk about
some toroids and balance and so for people getting
the urge to build an antenna to get out there.
I know I've got this in fed up now. At least
I have something out there. That's not my...
I like it. My preferred antenna, but as you are
well an expert at as well, the HOA police haven't
found it yet. I fight them all the time. By the
way, I like NFID half waves. I think they're
great antennas. They have the unique quality
with a nice 9 to 1 or 49 to 1 balance. Some people
get confused about why they call it a 9 to 1
or a 49 to 1. 9 to 1 is the turns ratio, 49 to
1 is the impedance ratio of the same ballon.
For the nice 49 or 9 to 1 ballon at the end of
an NFID half -wave antenna, it not only works
at the lowest frequency, it works at the harmonics
too. That's what I like about the NFID half -wave.
You know, I've been kind of happy with it. F
-Four... for some things. It's not helping with
these de -expeditions on Antarctica and things
like that, but it gets the job done. It's a compromise
antenna, no question about it. It's easy and
cheap, you know. It works pretty well for a piece
of wire. It works well for the one criteria which
is nobody can see it. yourself a piece of 26
gauge Davis Davis stealth flex and it's barely
visible. Yeah, that's another good piece of another
good tip. And most of the ham dealers sell Davis
stealth flex. It's a very, it's made of very,
very fine wire, and it's copper clad steel wire,
so it doesn't stretch. It doesn't stretch in
many, many, fine, many, many, fine strands. And
then it's covered in a very, very tough polyethylene
jacket. So I've had, and they make it in, I think,
26 gauge, 13 gauge or 14 gauge, and then I think
11 gauge or 12 gauge. It's moderately, it has
a moderate price tag on it. Excellent for putting
up wire antennas. I've had a loop of 26 of their
20 26 gauge wire around my house for a long time.
That stuff has been up there for a little for
ages. It never stretches. Great wire. Good for
good visible antennas. Yeah, well, that's that's
the name of the game right now. So till I can
remedy that so So it's at least got me on the
air, I will say that. 20 meters, yeah, not so
much, but it's at least got me on the air. Well,
John, thanks again for being here and educating
us on this stuff and we'll talk to you soon.
And again, watch for articles from John in QST
and on the air. So a good place to find some
good projects to do. Thanks, John. Appreciate
it. My pleasure and all the best. That is a wrap
for this edition of HamTalk Live. I'd like to
thank my guest, John Portun, W6NBC. and everybody
out there in cyberspace for listening and invite
you back next time and coming up we will be coming
to you live from the Orlando hamcation here in
a couple of weeks so make sure you tune in for
that we may have may have be on the air one more
time before then but we'll Definitely be on from
Orlando, so make sure you catch that. For a list
of all of our upcoming guests, go to HamTalkLive
.com. So for now, this is Neil Rapp, WB9VPG,
saying 7 -3, 7 -5, and may the good DX be yours.
To you and your family I'll be seeing you further
down the line It's hard to believe that you're
empty indeed Cause you sound just like a local
up here But why don't those whistling Mediterranean's
check it with a ring?