Welcome back to the Monkey Mind Lab. Today, we're
joined by Professor Gloria Estela González Zenteno,
an expert whose passion for language and culture
crosses continents and challenges borders. As
a professor of Luso -Hispanic Studies at Middlebury
College, she's known by her students for transforming
classrooms into vibrant spaces of dialogue and
discovery, with a keen eye on how languages shape
identities, communities, and social justice,
Professor González Zenteno brings a global perspective
that's both inspiring and insightful. But her
influence extends beyond academia. Professor
González Zenteno is the author of Arribada,
a novel that follows a classical pianist returning
to her Mexican coastal hometown, confronting
her family secrets and environmental decay. She's
here today to help us untangle the fascinating
and often overlooked connections between language,
power, and culture. Please join me in welcoming
Professor Gloria Estela Gonzalez Zenteno. Thank
you so much for inviting me. This is so exciting.
I think you're such an interesting person that
every time that we've spoken... There's always
these stories that you're mentioning that I couldn't
wait to get onto the podcast. Thank you. This
is so much fun also for me because I have a similar
experience knowing you. Every time we talked,
I thought, wow, we have so many things to talk
about. So now we are here doing it more formally.
Great. Thank you. So let's start with the three
questions that I usually ask all of my guest
speakers. What do you teach? Why do you teach
it? And what brought you into it or what drew
you to it? Yeah. Well, I teach a lot of things.
I teach a lot of things in Spanish. So everything
is in the student's foreign language most of
the times. And what do I teach? I teach Latin
American culture. I teach some history of Latin
America, not a lot. And I teach creative writing.
And I also teach other forms of narrative because
what I do is I tell stories. And so I teach my
students to tell them in different formats, for
example, in podcasts, in essays, in personal
essays, etc. Yeah. So what drew me to that is,
well, that's always been my passions. All of
those things I just mentioned are my passions.
I love literature. I love reading and writing.
I love telling stories. I love culture and I
love my culture, my Mexican culture. So I love
teaching that. And history is another passion.
I find it amazing what people do and the decisions
that they make over time and the consequences
that that has. So, yeah. So basically, you know,
I do the things I love and then they pay me.
So it's excellent. You know the saying, if you
do what you love, you never work a day in your
life. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So nice. And we
kind of spoke about this earlier, but you're
a very accomplished, award -winning novelist
and poet, I think? No, just a novelist and a
short story writer. A short story writer. Yes,
that was it. Sorry. I wrote poetry, but it's
on the side. So tell us a little bit about that.
When did you first get into writing and what
is it about writing that you really enjoy? How
has it changed after coming to the U .S. from
Mexico? Oh, it changes. It changed a lot. So
I started writing when I was little. And in fact,
I started telling stories before I started writing
them. And I remember because I went to Catholic
school and I remember the nuns asking me, for
example, what did you do this past weekend? You
know, and I would start like, well, you know,
what did I do? Nothing really interesting. We
went swimming. And then I would make up a huge
story about swimming, you know, with adventures
and animals. And they would tell me, well, you
know. You know that lying is a sin? Yeah. And
I'm like, oh, dear. So, you know, so I had this
thing that I was not allowed to do what came
naturally to me, which was invent things. And
but it didn't stop me. So I kept going. Yeah.
And that became formalized a lot later. But I
started since I was little, frankly. And when
I got here to the States, it changed a lot because
I didn't have people to share it with because
I was writing in Spanish. I didn't have a lot.
I had just a few. And I had friends here who
were writers or wanted to read my stuff. And
so I started writing in English for them because
I thought, OK, you know, like I'm here, I'm not
there. And I want to, you know, I want to interact
with my books. And so that's why I started writing
in English. So I write in both languages. I publish
in both. tell a story in one language and then
you decide to tell it in the other language,
you realize, no, it cannot be the same story.
So you have to change it in order to make it
work. So that's interesting to think of language
as a bridge or a barrier between cultures. Yeah,
it can be both. And for me, for me, it works
as a bridge because I can do both. And thanks
to that. And, you know, I'm not a translator,
so I don't follow the rules of translators. I
just write another story in the other, the same
story in the other language. And that's a very
liberating thing for me because it lets me communicate
with different people, tell them exactly what
I want to say, but I must say it very differently.
And I like that. And sometimes it's a whole different
story. I mean, writing in a different language,
you don't get the same nuances, you don't get
the same... idioms or ways of writing. Exactly.
Sometimes it has to change. It's lost in translation.
Exactly. Unless you don't translate, which is
why I do it that way. Nice. Okay, so let's get
to the big question for today, which is, can
the arts be a form of resistance? Yeah, certainly.
So much so that I think that that's what I do
in my writing. I also teach that. So I do both.
I write in that spirit and I also teach it. In
fact, I have a class right now that is just ending
that is called Latinx Resistance. You know, so
it's so it's how how Latin American people resist
against oppression. And we do it through narrative.
And I tell my students that they can be free
to write artistically. So they don't necessarily
all do it, but I'm always like. hoping that they
will and I really enjoy doing that so when they
when they write in a more artistic way less an
academic way so it's an interesting combination
because they still have to say the truth so they
have to tell the story in a you know with own
with verified facts and yet I tell them yeah
you can go further than that you know you can
do it beautiful and and some of them do and it's
really exciting so anyway so what I do when I
write is precisely that I tell stories that I
find important because they depict people who
have been resisting against oppression. And so
my stories have a lot to do with how they free
themselves and their communities or how they
help species that are in danger in some cases.
So that's what I do. That's basically all I do.
And I do it in many different ways, you know.
Let's deep dive a little more into that. Whether
it's looking at examples of the arts as tools
for activism, or especially, okay, let's look
at within the Latin American context, right?
There have been several regimes and several uprisings
and forms of resistance, some worked, some didn't.
What extent do you think the arts played a role
in that? And let's dive into the mechanisms of
that, like how? do the arts actually influence
or resist? Absolutely. Latin America is a perfect
example of that because we have in different
places, we have this amazing creative power of
people doing precisely that. So I can give you
a few examples that come off the cup right now.
So for example, Pablo Neruda. super famous. He
was the poet of the people. Before he became
the Nobel Prize winner, he was already followed
by the whole country who not only loved his love
poetry, but also his political poetry, which
was amazing. He has a book, for example, well,
he has a book called Tanto General, which is
like the history of Latin America in poetry.
And that's amazing. And Latin America, not just
generally, but its resistance against colonial
oppression, for example. And then he became a
politician and he would have won, but decided
not to run, etc. So he's a perfect example. There's,
for example, Nicaragua, a land of poets. And
during the resistance against the dictator Somoza,
for example, in the 1970s and 60s and 50s, long
time. All those poets were writing poetry to
incite people to continue fighting, you know,
continue resisting, work for their own liberation.
So those are examples, but there's so many in
different, not only poets, I just mentioned poets,
but there's, you know, journalists and novelists
and in Argentina, in Mexico, in Cuba, you name
it, there's examples. It's amazing. It's it's
really so basically that is where I come from.
And as you can hear in my voice, I'm kind of
proud of that. You know, you should be. It's
really lovely because you have a tradition of
the arts, the artists resisting and teaching
people how to resist, you know, like showing
the way, pointing the direction. And so it's
not just like the journalists say the truth.
And, you know, if you know what they read or
what they write, you know the way to go. No,
it's also the intellectuals or, you know, journalists
are intellectuals as well, but not only. And
so including the poets, you know, they're doing
that all the time in all their different countries.
And so, well, not all the time and not all of
them, but many, many. Enough to say we have a
long and very strong tradition of that. I think
those are my spiritual mentors, if you will.
You know, those writers that I'm talking about
inspired me to do something similar. So let's
shift focus onto you. We know that through the
power of storytelling, you focused on environmental
conservation. Your book, Arribada, focuses on
sea turtle conservation. Yeah. and the conservation
efforts in Mexico and how fiction can influence
real world ecological outcomes. So I guess the
question here that we can ask is, can a story
save a species? Yeah, I hope so. But I think
so. I really do think so. And not necessarily
my story and only my story, but many stories
told about that particular issue. So, you know,
that's more or less what I'm telling because
in the 1990s, Mexico added itself to the world
ban on sea turtle hunting. And that was a huge
moment for Mexico because previously they had
used sea turtle meat as part of their diet. So
it was, you know, it was a big sacrifice. You
know, people had to say. Yes, we love it. And
we actually need it because we're not super rich
and this is part of our protein diet. However,
we need to, we need to make the sacrifice and
we need to, you know, try to save the species
because it's going to ruin everything, not only
themselves. We're not only ruining the life of
the turtles, the turtles need the ocean to stay
healthy. And therefore we need them because we
need the ocean to stay healthy. So it's, you
know, it's for everybody. And so those stories
are told in many different ways, you know, through
scientists who told the story and journalists,
et cetera, but also people like me, you know,
people who write for the general public, which
is why I think it's important because I'm not
a scientist. I don't, the scientists don't need
to know my story because they're already, they
know much more than I do about the topic. But
what I want to do is bridge the gap between them
and what they know and the general public. So
that's why I think literature and, you know,
popular literature, not necessarily, you know,
Cervantes. I'm never going to be Cervantes. But,
you know, stories really tell something that
people need to know in order to perhaps change
the way they do things. And on a level which
science may not, you can throw all sorts of numbers
and data and charts and facts at them. The fact
of the matter is that sometimes it's the story
that really digs deep and gets to the human in
us. Absolutely, because, you know, the scientists
talk to each other and they speak to the converts,
right? So they already they're doing their thing
and it's wonderful. But what about everybody
else? We need to be educated. You know, we need
that education. We need to understand why this
is important. And sometimes a story can do that.
And I tell you because, you know, in presenting
my book, I've seen people. I've seen people respond
to the book in a way they say, I get it. And
I hadn't gotten it before. And now I do. And
I'm like, oh, you know, it's just a few people.
It's not like thousands, right? But every step
counts. Every little gesture towards improvement
is important, I think. And so. One day I'm going
to be super famous and there will be thousands
and thousands of people. Of course. And then
I can say you were on my podcast. There you go.
So now it's happening soon. Yes. Awaiting Eagerly.
But so tell us more about your book and how that
supported efforts that were already ongoing and
how that amplified it to where it is today and
how you tapped into the story. What led you to
write it to begin with and then how that influenced?
The effects that the book has had today. Yeah,
that is a very lovely story to me because I've
always been concerned about these problems. I've
always been concerned about trash in developing
countries. Mexico has a problem with that, et
cetera. And I just felt that who knows where
we were going? You know, like I was kind of feeling.
about that because how are we going to change
this, turn it around? And so in that way, one
day I was like on a beach with my family and
that was a long time ago. And, you know, this
beach was full of people and not a super pristine
beach at all. It was kind of like touristic and
there was a little trash here and there and things
like that. And we were walking and suddenly out
of the blue in front of me, just like a meter
away from my feet. there's this little, you know,
mound of sand and from it comes a turtle. A sea
turtle, a tiny, you know, baby. So it was hatching
in front of our eyes. And so I read later and
I realized that this was unusual because they
hatch at night most of the times. They have ways
of trying to protect themselves. So no, this
one was like completely vulnerable, completely
in the open, surrounded by all these throngs
of tourists, etc. And of course, we helped her
and took her to the water. And to me, it's a
girl. I don't know why. And goodbye and come
back and et cetera. And so that moment to me
was so important because I felt this one made
it. That means others can make it. And what can
we do to help them? No. And so that story is
in my novel. And so I have these little kids
who in the novel who were just playing around
and see this happen. And, you know, so later
in her life, the protagonist, who is one of these
kids, you know, partly because of this, but other
things, decides, you know, I need to help. Like,
what can I do? And so this experience of understanding
how important it is and actually that there are
possibilities, that we're not completely gone,
that we're not hopeless. There is hope. And there's
things we can do. And so those are basically
the stories that my novel tells in some ways.
There's other stories, but that's what I put.
Circling back to the broader question of the
arts as a form of resistance, even if you're
looking at paintings or other forms of theater,
literature, drama, a lot of things on that front.
We recently had a screening of an Argentinian
play called The Walls on campus. I remember running
into you there. It was a lot to do with psychological
manipulation and totalitarianism and things like
that. So those are themes that seem to be recurrent
in Latin American or Hispanic literature that's
coming across. To what extent is that driven
by... resistance or to inform people of what
went on there to mimic the sort of conditions
of the regimes that went on or the politics that
happened would you say those kind of plays those
kind of stories those kind of poems are more
about sharing the story with other people to
make sure something like that doesn't happen
again or to educate or is it more about uh resisting
by having certain characters of not go along
with the flow or the sheer fact by telling that
story, they're resisting because they're speaking
out against something that is wrong. Yeah. I
think all of the above. And in addition, for
example, that play that I, you know, I had a
hard time watching, as you know, that play was
written before the dictatorship. So. It was a
warning, you know, and that is a prophetic power
of literature. So prophecy is precisely, it's
a warning. You know, if you read prophets in
religions generally, I think, and I'm sure there
might be exceptions, right? But the ones that
I know about, that's what they were doing. They're
not saying, okay, things are really terrible
and they're going to get worse. No, they're like,
if you... go on that path, it will really get
bad. This is going to be a disaster. That's what
prophets say. And so I think that art does that,
the work of resistance, partly by prophesizing,
by telling of the future. That's just one of
the many ways. So that's what we saw in that
play, Griselda Gambaros, The Walls. But for example,
I can think of so many different examples. Chile,
for example, during the dictatorship, they had
this poetry called Palimpsest. So, you know,
so the idea was they wrote in such a coded language
that it went below the radar for the censors.
Right. But the in crowd, the people like them,
the people who were the victims of the dictatorship
understood what it was actually about. And so
they were able to publish many books that had
this. content that gave people either information
or suggested strategies for resistance. And they
were able to go, you know, below the censors.
So there's just so many different ways of doing
it. It's just beautiful. Yeah, some of it is
just poetry that seems like romantic, love story.
But no, there's a lot more underneath that. So
it's crazy, crazy interesting. That makes me
think of films. Coming from a country that's
been ruled by, has been a colony for the British
and has had censorship in the ways people can
meet and in the way we can discuss things. Film
was a huge medium of communication, of spreading
the message of influence in the crowds. Till
date, we have a censor board in place because
there are some films which, if released, talk
about sensitive issues or something will cause
riots or like... outbreaks or oppression of a
specific crowd because that's the power that
films have to influence to yeah to create to
to do all those sorts of things yeah i'm curious
about what cinema culture and films have to do
uh or the role they play in this particular landscape
and in the past and in the present how are they
used to resist how did they overcome censorship
of regimes and The role that they can play at
large or the potential that they have to play
in at large. Yeah. Well, I can think of. Oh,
yeah, there's examples. So I can think of examples
in Mexico, Argentina, Cuba. And so they do it
different ways. In Mexico, it's amazing because
they are the filmmakers are really smart and
they of course, they're all really smart, but
they're smart in the sense that they can. make
stories that are super critical of the government,
and then they get funding from the government
to make their films. So it's really amazing.
It doesn't always work, but I know of examples
when it has worked, and they are really, really
critical. I mean, one example that comes to my
mind is a film called Red Dawn from Mexico. And
it's a terrible story. It's the story of the
there was a student movement in Mexico that was
quashed by the government in a brutal way. And
the story is about the 24 hours of the massacre.
And it's yeah. And it's beautiful, beautifully
done. You don't see any of the violence in on
the screen, but you hear it and you see the people
react to it. It's. It actually reminds me of
the play by Gambaro of the other day, because
it's similar, right? You just hear things, but
nothing is really happening in front of your
eyes. Similarly, and so this comes from Aristotle,
actually. So the idea that, you know, you have
to have decorum and you have to not be gruesome.
And yet you can tell stories that are about massacres,
for example. So that's, and these Mexican filmmakers
do that kind of thing. take advantage of certain
rules of censorship. They can go around them
and yet they can tell exactly the message they
want to tell. It's fascinating. It's really great.
I'm very proud of that. Again, as you should
be. Yeah. So let's talk about empowering marginalized
communities. Something that's spoken a lot. about
in a country like America and how artistic collaboration
could be useful in that respect and where creativity
and social justice kind of intersect. Yes, absolutely.
I'll give you an example from Mexico. And then
please remind me if I forget, because I want
to tell you one about here as well. So the example
that I can think of right now is how to empower
a community through art. So first in my novel,
I was the opposite. I was empowered by watching
a community find their power. And so that's what
the story is in Arribada, in my novel. Because
what I tell, the story that I tell is not about
rich people taking care of the poor. No, it's
the poorest people. The ones that are the most
oppressed saying this is not going to work. We
must change the way they are doing things. And
we're going to show them how to do it right.
And so that's what happens in my novel. And I
do it that way, not because it was my idea. No,
it's because communities do that in Latin America
and in Mexico specifically. the poorest communities
are the ones that are at the forefront of the
fight for the environment. They are the leaders.
We are not the leaders. People with university
degrees, no, it's them. And so that's the story
that I tell in my novel, is the educated people
actually learning from the poor communities.
They're the ones who know how to do it. And if
we follow their lead... We can turn things around
because they're doing it right and we're doing
it wrong. So that's a story that's there. It's
beautiful. Yeah. And I actually, so it's adorable.
Well, it's more than adorable. It's just a dream
for me because I was inspired by a particular
community in the northwest of Mexico. And so
I wrote about them, but I never met them. Because
going to their community, you cannot just go
there and show up and say, hey, I'm here. Give
me a room. You know, I need I need a room to
sleep tonight. And where's your restaurant? No,
you need to ask permission. And because I didn't
know anybody there, I didn't dare go. So I never
did. Anyway, after I published the novel, I come
into contact with a poet from that community.
And I tell her, you know, I wrote a novel about
you. And she's like, oh, my God, thank you. So
that was great. And so now we're going to collaborate
for a children's story. Oh, nice. Yeah. So she's
going to do it in her language and I'm doing
it in Spanish and in English in three languages.
Yeah. So that's really lovely. So how does art
empower people? I think that people empower writers
if you're humble enough to tell their stories
is what I feel. And of course, you know, like
the power that we have, writers have, is that
we can, you know, distribute that message. You
know, you can send it elsewhere so that more
people, you're just a conduit. You know, you're
just letting that knowledge and that wisdom go
through you, through your story so that others
can share, you know, can learn from them as well.
And it's not just people who are in the writing
profession. paraphrase and change the words of
the quote from the Disney film ratatouille anybody
can cook so anybody can write exactly anybody
can do art yeah absolutely art is is something
that's constantly fluid and changing and or the
arts are something that's constantly fluid and
changing so anybody can express these same thoughts
it's not just for writers or for people who said
okay i'm going to be in the profession or have
fancy degrees in this field anybody can write
And because of that, anybody can reclaim that
power to make voices heard, tell the stories
that aren't being told and do things that influence
the masses through their work. No question. I
so much agree. And that's what I tell my students.
So, no, it's really true. I mean, if you think
about it, like if you need neurosurgery, right,
like you have a problem and you need surgery,
right? You don't go to someone who was born a
neurosurgeon, right? Like the neurosurgeon had
a lot of years of schooling before he could open
your, you know, your bones here and take care
of you or whatever, right? Same thing. I mean,
you want to be an artist or a writer? You can
do it. You just have to learn how to. And there's
teachers who can teach you how to, you know,
show you the path or one of the paths or a number
of the paths because there's not just one, right?
There's many. But absolutely. I mean, anyone
can write and anyone can be like an accomplished
writer. You can. You certainly can. Look at me.
Yeah, no, it's really true. Yeah. So it's just
a matter. And I think the arts are probably I'm
not an expert on the other arts, but I think
so. I think that you can you can learn to write
a song. You can learn to make a painting or to
draw. You can learn, you know, and you just have
to find your own language. You have to find your
own particular path. And each person is different.
And that's what's beautiful, I think. Yeah. So
what I wanted to say is that about here, about
here, Vermont, I'm very interested in the migrant
worker community. I know a good number of them.
And, you know, I just find it so inspiring. Because
it's a tiny community of Latin Americans, mostly
Mexicans, who work in several industries, especially
in the milk industry. So they, you know, they
milk the cows. They take care of the cows. And
other industries, so for example, construction
and others. And they live very precarious existences
because they don't have the law protecting them.
Because many of them don't have... papers, right?
And I find what they are going through harrowing.
And yet I find what they are doing amazing because
they defend themselves. They push for law changes.
They don't have papers and they have had lawmakers
in Vermont change the law so that they can get
some of the rights that we all should have, that
they should have as well. And I find that amazing.
You know, they're not hiding. They show their
faces. They go on demonstrations. They organize
demonstrations. They go to the lawmakers in Montpelier.
And they just passed an important law last year
and another one this year. The one last year
is for education. So they have access to education.
And now everybody does, including them here in
Vermont. And then the other this year is about
construction. And so how... You know, the construction
companies cannot treat them like robots. They're
human beings. And now they have those laws protecting
them. Those are two examples. And how does the
art relate to that? I'm just trying to, I write
stories about them and I'm trying to be, to accompany
them, you know, to support them in whatever I
can do. And what I can do is tell stories, right?
So I'm writing their stories and I've published
a few. And others, I have a blog, and so I write
one of their stories every week. And those are
ways that one can, me, because I am not them,
you know. There's many things I cannot do that
they do infinitely better than I could, even
if I could do it. But I can do this. And so it's
my way to tell their story so that others can
hear about it and understand they deserve respect
and our support. And so that's one thing that
I think one can do. That makes me think of this
question. Storytelling has so much power to it
that you can... There's a very famous TED talk
by Chimamanda Adichie, The Danger of a Single
Story. I love it. We studied that in school.
Yeah. And that's a very apt title. It is a danger
for those who seek to oppress, seek to... take
control and suppress and that one story can make
all the difference so in your experience what
do you think the true power or the true impact
of storytelling is and the true importance of
it let's put it like that and in the 21st century
when the world is in the state that it is I think
and I could be wrong and so you could disagree
with me the world needs more storytellers oh
absolutely and what is What is the impact of
that? What's the importance? I mean, yes, it's
easy to say we need more storytellers. But why?
Why do we need more storytellers? Yeah, we certainly
do. And we need storytellers that are different,
which I think is what Adichie was saying. We
need, you know, we need stories about Vermont,
about Vermonters who are not your plain old person
who was born here, whose family has been here
for a number of generations. That's important,
but that's been told. And maybe it hasn't been
told in all ways and they should, by all means,
please continue. But we need the stories of the
people that I was just mentioning. You know,
we need people to know that their neighbors live
in the following way, that they have these accomplishments
and they have them despite a society that doesn't
care for them, doesn't know them, does not acknowledge
them. does not support them or respect them.
I'm not saying everybody does that, but many
people enough do that so that their result is,
you know, they are kind of dispossessed. And
that has to change. And so that's just one example,
right? But we could make lists of examples. No?
Yeah. And in another example that I was just
mentioning before, so my novel. Arribada is about
these upper class girls who are just like, yeah,
playing piano and being really, you know, happy
life. But then they discover the problems that
I was mentioning about the sea turtles and the
beaches, et cetera. And they realize that they
have a lot to learn, that their university studies
are not going to, we're not going to teach them.
They, you know, those particular girls, young
women. And instead they need someone to, you
know, there are people who already have that
knowledge. And what they need to do is listen
and respect those other stories. And so in my,
from my perspective, what I can do is tell that
story of those people learning from the indigenous
person and then learning to follow that lead.
And so I think that if we followed more leads.
of people like them, we would be in a much better
shape as a society. Yeah, both here in Vermont,
as I said, and as an example in Mexico as well.
I think across the world. Yeah, not just everywhere.
Another way that I can think of is what happens
in the morning to me, right? On a good day. The
way I like to start my day after my little exercise
and a little yoga and things like that is I take
my notebook and I have nothing to say. There's
no agenda, nothing like that. And some of the
best writing I've done comes from those moments,
you know, when I have like, oh, I have to write
chapter five about this, you know? No, it's like
I just take a pen, not even a pen, a pencil and
my notebook and I just scribble. what comes out
are stories about people protecting themselves
and each other against oppression. And, but they
come in a very free way, you know, so art is
liberating to me personally, which is why I'm
saying this, you know, this is that moment in
the mornings feels liberating because I am doing
what I love most, which is telling stories. And
then the stories that come out are very sincere,
frankly, and very kind of to the point, although
I didn't plan them or anything. And they are
those that kind of stories, stories of resistance.
So, yeah, that's another that's another way.
And I think we were talking about it, how, you
know, the monkey mind idea. That's why I decided
to mention this again, because this notebook
thing, you know, just you have your notebook
next to your bed and. You hardly say hello. You
hardly say good morning. You don't even brush
your teeth. And the first thing you do is that.
And your mind is kind of sleepy and hazy from
the night and maybe you had a dream or something.
And from those dreams and from those irrational
thoughts that are kind of messy, that's where
the better ideas come from for me. And that kind
of ideas, the ideas of respecting humans, respecting
life. respecting yourself and but not as an individual
only as a community you know like telling others
you have to stop what you're doing you know you
have to respect us those are the stories that
come out in the morning sometimes they come from
birds like in front of me in the window I see
birds chirping around and from that comes the
story it's hard for me to explain but it's It's
true. Believe me. Oh, yeah. I know. Inspiration
strikes in the most random ways. You can't explain
it, but when it does, it does. It's really true.
Yeah. I'd love to hear some more personal anecdotes
from you about how you've witnessed some of this
stuff or how you've seen your own writing make
that change or influence someone or has worked
with. marginalized has worked for marginalized
communities like for example there's a a poem
of mine which I wrote with a very different intention
with a very different goal behind it and somebody
who who had an eating disorder said oh this is
about me I relate to this it's like that's interesting
I didn't think of it like that I thought of it
in a very different way about something completely
different unrelated to eating disorders but Everybody
digs different things from literature, from writing,
that makes it really unique to them. And how
that can just be interpreted in different ways
and make a difference in its own way. Yes, absolutely.
In Arribada, well, Bosley Monari in Arribada,
because it's the same story, but different novels.
I tell the story of the uncle. So the protagonist
is a young woman, 22 years old, and she's...
She's a music student at Juilliard School of
Music in New York City. And she's just there
living the life in New York. And her uncle, who
she grew up with, he was just a few years older
than her. So the youngest sibling of her mom
disappears. And that's the... crisis that begins
the novel. So, you know, she's just hanging out
there being an artist in New York, but she has
to come back and drop everything she was doing
and come back and help the family and look for
her uncle who is missing. And so basically they
spend the novel looking for him, and I'm not
going to tell you how it goes. Okay. But that,
well, it's unfortunately, it's easy to imagine
how it goes. But the readers, many readers. that
have read it have told me, this is the story
of my family. You know, somebody went missing
in my family and we had to go through that. And
unfortunately, that's something that happens
a lot in Mexico. That's one of the ways in which,
firstly, the state in previous years, and now
not the state, but organized crime, have been
oppressing society, you know, so they, They kidnap
people. And there's a horrible process of playing
with the victims, you know, to extort money or
et cetera, many different things that can happen,
which are all horrible. And that is something
that has happened to me. I have seen people tell
me that's my story. And now I understand the
reason why. It's important to not be quiet because
one thing that they do, people who have had that,
is not say a word because they are, it's so painful.
They can't speak. They can't speak up. They can't
do anything. They cannot resist. They can defend
themselves, their family. So many of them are
incapacitated. They don't do anything. And people
who have read my novel have told me I need to
stop doing that. So I was not expecting that.
And in fact, yeah. So really, you know, in my
novel, they don't do that. They don't go and
defend themselves completely. They just, but
it's told in a way that it shows you don't do
that. Do this other thing. And I was, I was,
um, it's, it was very heartening to me to, to
see that is, is really moving and it's very painful,
frankly, as well, you know? So that pain. can
incapacitate you. But if you change something,
you can turn it into a better, you can get your
energy back and do something about it. I mean,
that must be really scary at a point like that
to imagine what if you got threats from the government
or something saying, stop writing like this,
or if they start censoring you. I mean, you happen
to be in America, but you're also a Mexican citizen,
right? It must be scary. Did at any point you
feel, OK, I'm going to stop writing like this
or let me go redact that or change it? Were you
pretty adamant on this is what I'm going to say
and this is how I'm going to say it? No problem.
No. And besides, I should say very clearly that
those problems of censorship in Mexico are not
there anymore. OK. So we are in a new spring
of democracy in Mexico. So it's lovely. But it's
actually short. You know, it's just been six,
seven years. So it's very, very short. But we're
enjoying it. It's lovely. And I was writing before
that, but I didn't care. I was doing it anyway.
So, for example, I'm doing it now and I don't
care. I'm still doing it. I'm teaching what I'm
teaching. I'm writing what I'm writing. And I
hope I won't get in trouble, but I'm not going
to stop. You know, like I'm not invincible. I'm
not Superman, but I'm not going to stop. And
I hope everything will be OK. I think so. The
best way to understand it is to see those stories.
If you read one of the stories, not necessarily
mine, but any of the stories that I mentioned,
you'll see the examples. And it basically shows
a person who is in danger, you know, a person
or a community, a person in their community who
are in danger. They have a lot to risk. And it's
a forking path. On the one hand, you can stay
quiet and put your head down and just pray nothing
wrong will continue happening, right? But it's
already happening. And on the other, you can
make a change. And the stories are about that.
So the stories are about the people being right
in that forking path and making a choice. And
some characters in stories go one way and others
go on another way. And the ones who go in the
way of resistance, they don't have it easy. They
have it really hard. But they accomplish a few
things. And sometimes they risk their lives,
frankly. But they do it. And so that's what I
think. If you can put yourself on that, you know,
in the middle of the why, of the forking path,
you're like, okay, should I go this way or that
way? Put yourself in the shoes of the character.
And then decide which way are you going to go?
Which way would you go? And what happens if you
go the other way? And that's the story. Tell
the story. So, you know, that's as basic as that.
Yeah. Tell the story and see where it goes, where
it takes you. Because you don't know where it's
going to go. Like, I didn't know how I was going
to finish my stories until very close to the
ending. And then I'm like, oh, yeah, that's...
That's where they're going to take it. So -and
-so's going to die. No, they're not going to
die. Like, you know, like... It's going to be
this way. You discover that as you go. So it's
hard to know. But if you put yourself in that
little why, in that forking path, in that particular
spot, you know you must decide something. It's
either this or that. And then that path is going
to take you places. That's amazing. Does that
make sense? It does. Yeah? So I ask every one
of my guests. uh to share with our listeners
one big idea pertinent to the episode now it
could be related unrelated what is one takeaway
the audience should have from hearing about this
from hearing about how the arts can be a form
of resistance from hearing your story the stories
that you've told um what is one thing that they
should take away from this it could be about
writing it could be about life it could be anything
i think The main takeaway for my life, for my
students, maybe, you know, if they agree with
me and for my readers is it's never too late
and go for it. Because, you know, we sometimes
feel paralyzed by our fears, by our insecurities,
lack of confidence, like, or maybe I don't even
have time for that and I'm just going to do this
easy thing instead. No, go for it. If you care,
just try it. it might work. It most probably
will. And yeah, and I'm saying that as a writer,
I'm saying that as a, you know, as an activist,
you know, seeing people who are activists and
how much they have accomplished. And I love it
when I see people respond to that, including
kids, because I have short stories for kids as
well. And the kids are like, look, teacher. They
call me teacher. They're adorable. Look, you
know, this is this is my turtle. You know, she's
fine. She's not going to die. And, you know,
and I just feel these kids are going to grow
up loving turtles. And I feel like I am so accomplished
because I help them get there. And it's just,
you know, like it works. You know, it actually
works. You can make a difference. It's not for
me. It's for them. It's for the kids. And the
kids are going to tell their parents, like, hey,
what are you doing? You're just polluting the
beach. Don't throw that trash there or whatever.
Be careful with the turtle. And so you create
a community of people who care. And that's possible.
We can all do that. Yeah. So hopefully more people
will. Because we really need that. Yeah. We need
that for these days. People who care. Yeah. And
I think the other thing would be tell more stories.
Yes. Keep telling stories. For sure. Make things
up. Yeah. Remember that every story has a huge
amount of power behind it. Absolutely. Oh, my
gosh. Absolutely. Yeah. And when I say go for
it, it's like, okay, you feel like you have a
story to tell? Write it. And if you don't feel
like writing because, you know, like, oh, my
gosh, I'm not sure. Well, record it on your phone
and then turn it into a text, you know, give
it all the shape that it needs. It will be a
story that people can hear. And that's we all
have stories, you know, we tell them so important.
And if you have grannies, you know, ask them
their stories. That's really important. Grandpas.
Yeah. It's about listening as well as telling.
Absolutely. Yeah. I think that's a huge takeaway
and something we've heard recurring across a
lot of episodes is we need to take the time to
listen. I could not agree more. Absolutely. We
need to listen. People tend to love the sound
of their own voices and constantly want to talk
and want to always tell about, oh, everything's
about me, me, me, I, I, I. Yeah, I know. But
what about the person in front of you? Absolutely.
No, no, no. It could not be more true. Yeah.
That's why I say, you know, grannies, grandpas,
you know, people in your community, you never
know where the story... And, you know, this listening
is, of course, listening with your ears, but
you can also listen with your eyes. Watch what
they do. And what they do can be amazing. It's
probably amazing. And all you got to do is actually
pay attention. So listening is paying attention,
right? And wow, you know, it's like... Look what
they do. And here I am just being a couch potato,
doing nothing. I can't tell you the amount of
times I feel this. Like if I start telling people
the story of my grandparents on my mom's side,
my mom's parents, actually both sides of the
grandparents have been through really crazy lives.
But my grandfather, he's 98 now. He's doing pretty
well. We'll go see him soon. He was a freedom
fighter. Wow. For the Indian independence movement.
Oh my God. He went to jail around the same time
Gandhi did. They were in the same jail. He ran
away from home at the age of 12 because his parents
wanted to get him married and he didn't want
to. So he made it on his own. He used to sit
under a lamppost and sketch people. Wow. And
sell that to them and make money from that to
the point where he made enough to get a space,
start classes, started teaching people. Wow.
He later went on to start a school. He ran the
school for 54 years, his principal at that school,
and he only charged the bare minimum fee that
he needed to run the place, 20 rupees. He made
over 300 paintings and statues. Wow. So really,
really a self -made man and really impressive.
If I look at my grandmother, daughter of a collector
or something, very well -off, but so modern thinking,
never let her daughters into the kitchen. Never
forced them to do any of that. It was like always,
it'll be handled. My grandmother on my dad's
side, after my grandfather passed away when my
dad was five years old, she was thrown out of
the house with the children and all the money
was stolen, the whole thing over there. Moved
across the country to Mumbai, started her life
off thanks to her brother's help over there.
Wow. And made it herself. Yeah. mother of two
kids in a city that is vicious I mean Bombay
is great I love it but it's it's not very kind
to everyone just the stories take the time to
sit and listen every time I listen to them I'm
just in awe of the fact that that's the way they
live their life and I have a lot to live up to
Oh, no, you're doing very well, I have to say.
You're doing very, very well. Thank you. Yeah,
this actually reminds me of my new novel, which
I am right now negotiating the contract to publish
it. And it's a story about my family, precisely.
So in my family, there are stories like that.
And I'm like, wow, you know, I need to put this
down. And then I discovered that there's connections
with the history of Mexico. in those stories.
And I'm like, oh, when one of my my great grandpa
was a freedom fighter, too, which this is this
is what reminded me. And so I decided, OK, I'm
going to tell that part. And so it got bigger
and bigger. And so, you know, the auntie and
the grandma and all the other like all the other
characters started like showing up in the novel,
you know, and I'm like, this is awesome. So it's
not the story of my family, but it's the story
of my community. through my family's personal
stories. And it's like so fun. It's for young
people. So, you know, the person, the editor
was telling me, I like it because it's for young
people. And I'm like, I'm glad you got that because
it's about a young woman who is 20 years old
and she does parkour. So she climbs on buildings
and that's how it starts. And so, yes, I think
it's super important to listen. And there's a
wealth of experience all around us. And we can
do it. Yeah. So I hope you will tell your family
stories one day. Thank you. I hope to be able
to do that too. And with that, I think we're
at the end of our episode. Thank you so much
for joining us. It's been lovely speaking to
you. I know we're going to have many, many more
conversations off the podcast as well. I look
forward to those. Absolutely. Yes. Thank you
so much for monkeying around with us. Stay tuned
for the next episode of the Monkey Mind Lab.