WEBVTT 00:00:18.920 --> 00:00:22.460 Welcome back to the Monkey Mind Lab. Today, we're 00:00:22.460 --> 00:00:25.960 joined by Professor Gloria Estela González Zenteno, 00:00:26.160 --> 00:00:29.399 an expert whose passion for language and culture 00:00:29.399 --> 00:00:33.640 crosses continents and challenges borders. As 00:00:33.640 --> 00:00:36.740 a professor of Luso -Hispanic Studies at Middlebury 00:00:36.740 --> 00:00:41.500 College, she's known by her students for transforming 00:00:41.500 --> 00:00:44.780 classrooms into vibrant spaces of dialogue and 00:00:44.780 --> 00:00:48.649 discovery, with a keen eye on how languages shape 00:00:48.649 --> 00:00:51.329 identities, communities, and social justice, 00:00:51.770 --> 00:00:55.170 Professor González Zenteno brings a global perspective 00:00:55.170 --> 00:00:58.810 that's both inspiring and insightful. But her 00:00:58.810 --> 00:01:02.289 influence extends beyond academia. Professor 00:01:02.289 --> 00:01:06.629 González Zenteno is the author of Arribada, 00:01:06.829 --> 00:01:10.090 a novel that follows a classical pianist returning 00:01:10.090 --> 00:01:12.950 to her Mexican coastal hometown, confronting 00:01:12.950 --> 00:01:16.340 her family secrets and environmental decay. She's 00:01:16.340 --> 00:01:18.939 here today to help us untangle the fascinating 00:01:18.939 --> 00:01:22.260 and often overlooked connections between language, 00:01:22.500 --> 00:01:26.060 power, and culture. Please join me in welcoming 00:01:26.060 --> 00:01:30.180 Professor Gloria Estela Gonzalez Zenteno. Thank 00:01:30.180 --> 00:01:32.700 you so much for inviting me. This is so exciting. 00:01:32.939 --> 00:01:36.540 I think you're such an interesting person that 00:01:36.540 --> 00:01:38.530 every time that we've spoken... There's always 00:01:38.530 --> 00:01:41.409 these stories that you're mentioning that I couldn't 00:01:41.409 --> 00:01:43.469 wait to get onto the podcast. Thank you. This 00:01:43.469 --> 00:01:46.870 is so much fun also for me because I have a similar 00:01:46.870 --> 00:01:50.189 experience knowing you. Every time we talked, 00:01:50.250 --> 00:01:52.230 I thought, wow, we have so many things to talk 00:01:52.230 --> 00:01:55.230 about. So now we are here doing it more formally. 00:01:55.510 --> 00:01:58.390 Great. Thank you. So let's start with the three 00:01:58.390 --> 00:02:00.049 questions that I usually ask all of my guest 00:02:00.049 --> 00:02:02.909 speakers. What do you teach? Why do you teach 00:02:02.909 --> 00:02:05.969 it? And what brought you into it or what drew 00:02:05.969 --> 00:02:09.560 you to it? Yeah. Well, I teach a lot of things. 00:02:09.639 --> 00:02:12.819 I teach a lot of things in Spanish. So everything 00:02:12.819 --> 00:02:16.560 is in the student's foreign language most of 00:02:16.560 --> 00:02:19.879 the times. And what do I teach? I teach Latin 00:02:19.879 --> 00:02:23.939 American culture. I teach some history of Latin 00:02:23.939 --> 00:02:27.360 America, not a lot. And I teach creative writing. 00:02:28.169 --> 00:02:31.669 And I also teach other forms of narrative because 00:02:31.669 --> 00:02:34.569 what I do is I tell stories. And so I teach my 00:02:34.569 --> 00:02:36.449 students to tell them in different formats, for 00:02:36.449 --> 00:02:39.930 example, in podcasts, in essays, in personal 00:02:39.930 --> 00:02:45.469 essays, etc. Yeah. So what drew me to that is, 00:02:45.550 --> 00:02:47.810 well, that's always been my passions. All of 00:02:47.810 --> 00:02:49.490 those things I just mentioned are my passions. 00:02:49.689 --> 00:02:52.810 I love literature. I love reading and writing. 00:02:53.050 --> 00:02:57.090 I love telling stories. I love culture and I 00:02:57.090 --> 00:03:00.129 love my culture, my Mexican culture. So I love 00:03:00.129 --> 00:03:02.870 teaching that. And history is another passion. 00:03:03.110 --> 00:03:07.409 I find it amazing what people do and the decisions 00:03:07.409 --> 00:03:10.069 that they make over time and the consequences 00:03:10.069 --> 00:03:13.990 that that has. So, yeah. So basically, you know, 00:03:14.069 --> 00:03:16.590 I do the things I love and then they pay me. 00:03:16.710 --> 00:03:20.879 So it's excellent. You know the saying, if you 00:03:20.879 --> 00:03:22.180 do what you love, you never work a day in your 00:03:22.180 --> 00:03:26.060 life. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So nice. And we 00:03:26.060 --> 00:03:27.419 kind of spoke about this earlier, but you're 00:03:27.419 --> 00:03:30.639 a very accomplished, award -winning novelist 00:03:30.639 --> 00:03:34.360 and poet, I think? No, just a novelist and a 00:03:34.360 --> 00:03:36.319 short story writer. A short story writer. Yes, 00:03:36.319 --> 00:03:38.620 that was it. Sorry. I wrote poetry, but it's 00:03:38.620 --> 00:03:42.300 on the side. So tell us a little bit about that. 00:03:42.360 --> 00:03:45.199 When did you first get into writing and what 00:03:45.199 --> 00:03:48.659 is it about writing that you really enjoy? How 00:03:48.659 --> 00:03:50.240 has it changed after coming to the U .S. from 00:03:50.240 --> 00:03:53.539 Mexico? Oh, it changes. It changed a lot. So 00:03:53.539 --> 00:03:56.120 I started writing when I was little. And in fact, 00:03:56.139 --> 00:03:58.599 I started telling stories before I started writing 00:03:58.599 --> 00:04:01.259 them. And I remember because I went to Catholic 00:04:01.259 --> 00:04:04.080 school and I remember the nuns asking me, for 00:04:04.080 --> 00:04:06.300 example, what did you do this past weekend? You 00:04:06.300 --> 00:04:07.939 know, and I would start like, well, you know, 00:04:07.939 --> 00:04:09.460 what did I do? Nothing really interesting. We 00:04:09.460 --> 00:04:12.340 went swimming. And then I would make up a huge 00:04:12.340 --> 00:04:14.419 story about swimming, you know, with adventures 00:04:14.419 --> 00:04:17.199 and animals. And they would tell me, well, you 00:04:17.199 --> 00:04:20.589 know. You know that lying is a sin? Yeah. And 00:04:20.589 --> 00:04:23.269 I'm like, oh, dear. So, you know, so I had this 00:04:23.269 --> 00:04:25.509 thing that I was not allowed to do what came 00:04:25.509 --> 00:04:29.189 naturally to me, which was invent things. And 00:04:29.189 --> 00:04:33.069 but it didn't stop me. So I kept going. Yeah. 00:04:33.209 --> 00:04:36.449 And that became formalized a lot later. But I 00:04:36.449 --> 00:04:39.389 started since I was little, frankly. And when 00:04:39.389 --> 00:04:42.310 I got here to the States, it changed a lot because 00:04:42.310 --> 00:04:45.449 I didn't have people to share it with because 00:04:45.449 --> 00:04:47.930 I was writing in Spanish. I didn't have a lot. 00:04:47.990 --> 00:04:51.529 I had just a few. And I had friends here who 00:04:51.529 --> 00:04:54.670 were writers or wanted to read my stuff. And 00:04:54.670 --> 00:04:57.750 so I started writing in English for them because 00:04:57.750 --> 00:05:00.250 I thought, OK, you know, like I'm here, I'm not 00:05:00.250 --> 00:05:03.949 there. And I want to, you know, I want to interact 00:05:03.949 --> 00:05:07.790 with my books. And so that's why I started writing 00:05:07.790 --> 00:05:11.189 in English. So I write in both languages. I publish 00:05:11.189 --> 00:05:19.110 in both. tell a story in one language and then 00:05:19.110 --> 00:05:20.769 you decide to tell it in the other language, 00:05:20.870 --> 00:05:22.790 you realize, no, it cannot be the same story. 00:05:22.889 --> 00:05:24.889 So you have to change it in order to make it 00:05:24.889 --> 00:05:27.509 work. So that's interesting to think of language 00:05:27.509 --> 00:05:32.029 as a bridge or a barrier between cultures. Yeah, 00:05:32.209 --> 00:05:35.470 it can be both. And for me, for me, it works 00:05:35.470 --> 00:05:39.930 as a bridge because I can do both. And thanks 00:05:39.930 --> 00:05:43.000 to that. And, you know, I'm not a translator, 00:05:43.279 --> 00:05:46.399 so I don't follow the rules of translators. I 00:05:46.399 --> 00:05:48.740 just write another story in the other, the same 00:05:48.740 --> 00:05:52.279 story in the other language. And that's a very 00:05:52.279 --> 00:05:55.720 liberating thing for me because it lets me communicate 00:05:55.720 --> 00:05:58.699 with different people, tell them exactly what 00:05:58.699 --> 00:06:01.240 I want to say, but I must say it very differently. 00:06:01.399 --> 00:06:03.519 And I like that. And sometimes it's a whole different 00:06:03.519 --> 00:06:06.600 story. I mean, writing in a different language, 00:06:06.800 --> 00:06:09.220 you don't get the same nuances, you don't get 00:06:09.220 --> 00:06:12.430 the same... idioms or ways of writing. Exactly. 00:06:12.589 --> 00:06:15.529 Sometimes it has to change. It's lost in translation. 00:06:15.769 --> 00:06:18.790 Exactly. Unless you don't translate, which is 00:06:18.790 --> 00:06:22.970 why I do it that way. Nice. Okay, so let's get 00:06:22.970 --> 00:06:26.250 to the big question for today, which is, can 00:06:26.250 --> 00:06:30.629 the arts be a form of resistance? Yeah, certainly. 00:06:30.910 --> 00:06:34.370 So much so that I think that that's what I do 00:06:34.370 --> 00:06:38.899 in my writing. I also teach that. So I do both. 00:06:38.959 --> 00:06:42.459 I write in that spirit and I also teach it. In 00:06:42.459 --> 00:06:45.019 fact, I have a class right now that is just ending 00:06:45.019 --> 00:06:49.860 that is called Latinx Resistance. You know, so 00:06:49.860 --> 00:06:53.339 it's so it's how how Latin American people resist 00:06:53.339 --> 00:06:56.519 against oppression. And we do it through narrative. 00:06:57.120 --> 00:07:01.379 And I tell my students that they can be free 00:07:01.379 --> 00:07:04.079 to write artistically. So they don't necessarily 00:07:04.079 --> 00:07:07.850 all do it, but I'm always like. hoping that they 00:07:07.850 --> 00:07:10.230 will and I really enjoy doing that so when they 00:07:10.230 --> 00:07:13.529 when they write in a more artistic way less an 00:07:13.529 --> 00:07:16.129 academic way so it's an interesting combination 00:07:16.129 --> 00:07:18.389 because they still have to say the truth so they 00:07:18.389 --> 00:07:21.129 have to tell the story in a you know with own 00:07:21.129 --> 00:07:25.089 with verified facts and yet I tell them yeah 00:07:25.089 --> 00:07:27.069 you can go further than that you know you can 00:07:27.069 --> 00:07:30.069 do it beautiful and and some of them do and it's 00:07:30.069 --> 00:07:32.410 really exciting so anyway so what I do when I 00:07:32.410 --> 00:07:35.689 write is precisely that I tell stories that I 00:07:36.189 --> 00:07:41.970 find important because they depict people who 00:07:41.970 --> 00:07:45.370 have been resisting against oppression. And so 00:07:45.370 --> 00:07:49.910 my stories have a lot to do with how they free 00:07:49.910 --> 00:07:52.470 themselves and their communities or how they 00:07:52.470 --> 00:07:56.389 help species that are in danger in some cases. 00:07:56.709 --> 00:08:01.269 So that's what I do. That's basically all I do. 00:08:01.930 --> 00:08:04.490 And I do it in many different ways, you know. 00:08:04.920 --> 00:08:08.000 Let's deep dive a little more into that. Whether 00:08:08.000 --> 00:08:11.500 it's looking at examples of the arts as tools 00:08:11.500 --> 00:08:15.360 for activism, or especially, okay, let's look 00:08:15.360 --> 00:08:17.540 at within the Latin American context, right? 00:08:17.600 --> 00:08:21.360 There have been several regimes and several uprisings 00:08:21.360 --> 00:08:24.279 and forms of resistance, some worked, some didn't. 00:08:24.600 --> 00:08:27.100 What extent do you think the arts played a role 00:08:27.100 --> 00:08:31.939 in that? And let's dive into the mechanisms of 00:08:31.939 --> 00:08:35.179 that, like how? do the arts actually influence 00:08:35.179 --> 00:08:40.639 or resist? Absolutely. Latin America is a perfect 00:08:40.639 --> 00:08:44.120 example of that because we have in different 00:08:44.120 --> 00:08:50.320 places, we have this amazing creative power of 00:08:50.320 --> 00:08:52.460 people doing precisely that. So I can give you 00:08:52.460 --> 00:08:54.539 a few examples that come off the cup right now. 00:08:54.639 --> 00:08:58.679 So for example, Pablo Neruda. super famous. He 00:08:58.679 --> 00:09:01.480 was the poet of the people. Before he became 00:09:01.480 --> 00:09:04.500 the Nobel Prize winner, he was already followed 00:09:04.500 --> 00:09:07.919 by the whole country who not only loved his love 00:09:07.919 --> 00:09:10.919 poetry, but also his political poetry, which 00:09:10.919 --> 00:09:13.740 was amazing. He has a book, for example, well, 00:09:13.799 --> 00:09:16.379 he has a book called Tanto General, which is 00:09:16.379 --> 00:09:18.580 like the history of Latin America in poetry. 00:09:18.820 --> 00:09:21.480 And that's amazing. And Latin America, not just 00:09:21.480 --> 00:09:24.679 generally, but its resistance against colonial 00:09:24.679 --> 00:09:29.289 oppression, for example. And then he became a 00:09:29.289 --> 00:09:32.169 politician and he would have won, but decided 00:09:32.169 --> 00:09:36.389 not to run, etc. So he's a perfect example. There's, 00:09:36.409 --> 00:09:40.309 for example, Nicaragua, a land of poets. And 00:09:40.309 --> 00:09:44.029 during the resistance against the dictator Somoza, 00:09:44.090 --> 00:09:47.549 for example, in the 1970s and 60s and 50s, long 00:09:47.549 --> 00:09:52.399 time. All those poets were writing poetry to 00:09:52.399 --> 00:09:55.360 incite people to continue fighting, you know, 00:09:55.360 --> 00:09:58.639 continue resisting, work for their own liberation. 00:09:58.940 --> 00:10:02.259 So those are examples, but there's so many in 00:10:02.259 --> 00:10:04.639 different, not only poets, I just mentioned poets, 00:10:04.799 --> 00:10:08.620 but there's, you know, journalists and novelists 00:10:08.620 --> 00:10:13.419 and in Argentina, in Mexico, in Cuba, you name 00:10:13.419 --> 00:10:17.330 it, there's examples. It's amazing. It's it's 00:10:17.330 --> 00:10:20.149 really so basically that is where I come from. 00:10:20.309 --> 00:10:23.190 And as you can hear in my voice, I'm kind of 00:10:23.190 --> 00:10:26.549 proud of that. You know, you should be. It's 00:10:26.549 --> 00:10:28.850 really lovely because you have a tradition of 00:10:28.850 --> 00:10:32.929 the arts, the artists resisting and teaching 00:10:32.929 --> 00:10:35.990 people how to resist, you know, like showing 00:10:35.990 --> 00:10:39.080 the way, pointing the direction. And so it's 00:10:39.080 --> 00:10:41.600 not just like the journalists say the truth. 00:10:41.940 --> 00:10:44.340 And, you know, if you know what they read or 00:10:44.340 --> 00:10:46.600 what they write, you know the way to go. No, 00:10:46.759 --> 00:10:50.759 it's also the intellectuals or, you know, journalists 00:10:50.759 --> 00:10:54.460 are intellectuals as well, but not only. And 00:10:54.460 --> 00:10:56.500 so including the poets, you know, they're doing 00:10:56.500 --> 00:10:59.860 that all the time in all their different countries. 00:11:00.000 --> 00:11:01.960 And so, well, not all the time and not all of 00:11:01.960 --> 00:11:04.879 them, but many, many. Enough to say we have a 00:11:04.879 --> 00:11:08.629 long and very strong tradition of that. I think 00:11:08.629 --> 00:11:14.950 those are my spiritual mentors, if you will. 00:11:15.049 --> 00:11:17.730 You know, those writers that I'm talking about 00:11:17.730 --> 00:11:22.610 inspired me to do something similar. So let's 00:11:22.610 --> 00:11:25.330 shift focus onto you. We know that through the 00:11:25.330 --> 00:11:27.789 power of storytelling, you focused on environmental 00:11:27.789 --> 00:11:31.889 conservation. Your book, Arribada, focuses on 00:11:31.889 --> 00:11:36.700 sea turtle conservation. Yeah. and the conservation 00:11:36.700 --> 00:11:41.179 efforts in Mexico and how fiction can influence 00:11:41.179 --> 00:11:45.799 real world ecological outcomes. So I guess the 00:11:45.799 --> 00:11:49.960 question here that we can ask is, can a story 00:11:49.960 --> 00:11:55.720 save a species? Yeah, I hope so. But I think 00:11:55.720 --> 00:11:58.080 so. I really do think so. And not necessarily 00:11:58.080 --> 00:12:01.379 my story and only my story, but many stories 00:12:01.379 --> 00:12:04.580 told about that particular issue. So, you know, 00:12:04.600 --> 00:12:06.139 that's more or less what I'm telling because 00:12:06.139 --> 00:12:11.019 in the 1990s, Mexico added itself to the world 00:12:11.019 --> 00:12:15.360 ban on sea turtle hunting. And that was a huge 00:12:15.360 --> 00:12:18.779 moment for Mexico because previously they had 00:12:18.779 --> 00:12:23.259 used sea turtle meat as part of their diet. So 00:12:23.259 --> 00:12:26.320 it was, you know, it was a big sacrifice. You 00:12:26.320 --> 00:12:28.879 know, people had to say. Yes, we love it. And 00:12:28.879 --> 00:12:31.720 we actually need it because we're not super rich 00:12:31.720 --> 00:12:34.860 and this is part of our protein diet. However, 00:12:35.259 --> 00:12:38.100 we need to, we need to make the sacrifice and 00:12:38.100 --> 00:12:40.139 we need to, you know, try to save the species 00:12:40.139 --> 00:12:42.440 because it's going to ruin everything, not only 00:12:42.440 --> 00:12:44.980 themselves. We're not only ruining the life of 00:12:44.980 --> 00:12:47.559 the turtles, the turtles need the ocean to stay 00:12:47.559 --> 00:12:51.879 healthy. And therefore we need them because we 00:12:51.879 --> 00:12:54.399 need the ocean to stay healthy. So it's, you 00:12:54.399 --> 00:12:57.779 know, it's for everybody. And so those stories 00:12:57.779 --> 00:13:00.799 are told in many different ways, you know, through 00:13:00.799 --> 00:13:03.220 scientists who told the story and journalists, 00:13:03.360 --> 00:13:06.799 et cetera, but also people like me, you know, 00:13:06.820 --> 00:13:09.860 people who write for the general public, which 00:13:09.860 --> 00:13:12.440 is why I think it's important because I'm not 00:13:12.440 --> 00:13:15.779 a scientist. I don't, the scientists don't need 00:13:15.779 --> 00:13:18.279 to know my story because they're already, they 00:13:18.279 --> 00:13:21.419 know much more than I do about the topic. But 00:13:21.419 --> 00:13:24.700 what I want to do is bridge the gap between them 00:13:24.700 --> 00:13:27.539 and what they know and the general public. So 00:13:27.539 --> 00:13:30.080 that's why I think literature and, you know, 00:13:30.100 --> 00:13:32.159 popular literature, not necessarily, you know, 00:13:32.179 --> 00:13:34.299 Cervantes. I'm never going to be Cervantes. But, 00:13:34.399 --> 00:13:38.419 you know, stories really tell something that 00:13:38.419 --> 00:13:41.059 people need to know in order to perhaps change 00:13:41.059 --> 00:13:43.820 the way they do things. And on a level which 00:13:43.820 --> 00:13:46.179 science may not, you can throw all sorts of numbers 00:13:46.179 --> 00:13:50.470 and data and charts and facts at them. The fact 00:13:50.470 --> 00:13:52.149 of the matter is that sometimes it's the story 00:13:52.149 --> 00:13:57.269 that really digs deep and gets to the human in 00:13:57.269 --> 00:14:02.230 us. Absolutely, because, you know, the scientists 00:14:02.230 --> 00:14:04.870 talk to each other and they speak to the converts, 00:14:05.129 --> 00:14:06.929 right? So they already they're doing their thing 00:14:06.929 --> 00:14:09.409 and it's wonderful. But what about everybody 00:14:09.409 --> 00:14:12.830 else? We need to be educated. You know, we need 00:14:12.830 --> 00:14:14.710 that education. We need to understand why this 00:14:14.710 --> 00:14:18.250 is important. And sometimes a story can do that. 00:14:18.730 --> 00:14:21.129 And I tell you because, you know, in presenting 00:14:21.129 --> 00:14:24.690 my book, I've seen people. I've seen people respond 00:14:24.690 --> 00:14:28.730 to the book in a way they say, I get it. And 00:14:28.730 --> 00:14:32.009 I hadn't gotten it before. And now I do. And 00:14:32.009 --> 00:14:34.169 I'm like, oh, you know, it's just a few people. 00:14:34.210 --> 00:14:38.129 It's not like thousands, right? But every step 00:14:38.129 --> 00:14:41.929 counts. Every little gesture towards improvement 00:14:41.929 --> 00:14:45.279 is important, I think. And so. One day I'm going 00:14:45.279 --> 00:14:47.120 to be super famous and there will be thousands 00:14:47.120 --> 00:14:50.419 and thousands of people. Of course. And then 00:14:50.419 --> 00:14:52.360 I can say you were on my podcast. There you go. 00:14:52.419 --> 00:14:56.659 So now it's happening soon. Yes. Awaiting Eagerly. 00:14:57.019 --> 00:15:00.600 But so tell us more about your book and how that 00:15:00.600 --> 00:15:02.860 supported efforts that were already ongoing and 00:15:02.860 --> 00:15:05.379 how that amplified it to where it is today and 00:15:05.379 --> 00:15:10.279 how you tapped into the story. What led you to 00:15:10.279 --> 00:15:12.600 write it to begin with and then how that influenced? 00:15:13.789 --> 00:15:15.889 The effects that the book has had today. Yeah, 00:15:15.950 --> 00:15:21.669 that is a very lovely story to me because I've 00:15:21.669 --> 00:15:25.009 always been concerned about these problems. I've 00:15:25.009 --> 00:15:28.250 always been concerned about trash in developing 00:15:28.250 --> 00:15:32.009 countries. Mexico has a problem with that, et 00:15:32.009 --> 00:15:36.070 cetera. And I just felt that who knows where 00:15:36.070 --> 00:15:38.409 we were going? You know, like I was kind of feeling. 00:15:39.319 --> 00:15:42.419 about that because how are we going to change 00:15:42.419 --> 00:15:46.100 this, turn it around? And so in that way, one 00:15:46.100 --> 00:15:49.960 day I was like on a beach with my family and 00:15:49.960 --> 00:15:52.700 that was a long time ago. And, you know, this 00:15:52.700 --> 00:15:56.720 beach was full of people and not a super pristine 00:15:56.720 --> 00:15:59.639 beach at all. It was kind of like touristic and 00:15:59.639 --> 00:16:01.360 there was a little trash here and there and things 00:16:01.360 --> 00:16:04.500 like that. And we were walking and suddenly out 00:16:04.500 --> 00:16:06.879 of the blue in front of me, just like a meter 00:16:06.879 --> 00:16:10.330 away from my feet. there's this little, you know, 00:16:10.370 --> 00:16:14.649 mound of sand and from it comes a turtle. A sea 00:16:14.649 --> 00:16:17.529 turtle, a tiny, you know, baby. So it was hatching 00:16:17.529 --> 00:16:21.629 in front of our eyes. And so I read later and 00:16:21.629 --> 00:16:24.690 I realized that this was unusual because they 00:16:24.690 --> 00:16:29.429 hatch at night most of the times. They have ways 00:16:29.429 --> 00:16:32.129 of trying to protect themselves. So no, this 00:16:32.129 --> 00:16:33.909 one was like completely vulnerable, completely 00:16:33.909 --> 00:16:36.110 in the open, surrounded by all these throngs 00:16:36.110 --> 00:16:39.450 of tourists, etc. And of course, we helped her 00:16:39.450 --> 00:16:41.649 and took her to the water. And to me, it's a 00:16:41.649 --> 00:16:45.450 girl. I don't know why. And goodbye and come 00:16:45.450 --> 00:16:48.169 back and et cetera. And so that moment to me 00:16:48.169 --> 00:16:51.610 was so important because I felt this one made 00:16:51.610 --> 00:16:54.070 it. That means others can make it. And what can 00:16:54.070 --> 00:16:57.169 we do to help them? No. And so that story is 00:16:57.169 --> 00:17:01.350 in my novel. And so I have these little kids 00:17:01.350 --> 00:17:04.589 who in the novel who were just playing around 00:17:04.589 --> 00:17:07.799 and see this happen. And, you know, so later 00:17:07.799 --> 00:17:09.960 in her life, the protagonist, who is one of these 00:17:09.960 --> 00:17:13.859 kids, you know, partly because of this, but other 00:17:13.859 --> 00:17:17.180 things, decides, you know, I need to help. Like, 00:17:17.240 --> 00:17:22.880 what can I do? And so this experience of understanding 00:17:22.880 --> 00:17:25.839 how important it is and actually that there are 00:17:25.839 --> 00:17:28.799 possibilities, that we're not completely gone, 00:17:29.160 --> 00:17:33.759 that we're not hopeless. There is hope. And there's 00:17:33.759 --> 00:17:36.180 things we can do. And so those are basically 00:17:36.180 --> 00:17:39.400 the stories that my novel tells in some ways. 00:17:39.619 --> 00:17:42.460 There's other stories, but that's what I put. 00:17:43.400 --> 00:17:46.380 Circling back to the broader question of the 00:17:46.380 --> 00:17:48.859 arts as a form of resistance, even if you're 00:17:48.859 --> 00:17:53.460 looking at paintings or other forms of theater, 00:17:53.599 --> 00:17:57.619 literature, drama, a lot of things on that front. 00:17:59.210 --> 00:18:02.089 We recently had a screening of an Argentinian 00:18:02.089 --> 00:18:05.630 play called The Walls on campus. I remember running 00:18:05.630 --> 00:18:08.650 into you there. It was a lot to do with psychological 00:18:08.650 --> 00:18:13.190 manipulation and totalitarianism and things like 00:18:13.190 --> 00:18:17.029 that. So those are themes that seem to be recurrent 00:18:17.029 --> 00:18:21.250 in Latin American or Hispanic literature that's 00:18:21.250 --> 00:18:24.630 coming across. To what extent is that driven 00:18:24.630 --> 00:18:30.859 by... resistance or to inform people of what 00:18:30.859 --> 00:18:32.920 went on there to mimic the sort of conditions 00:18:32.920 --> 00:18:35.640 of the regimes that went on or the politics that 00:18:35.640 --> 00:18:38.440 happened would you say those kind of plays those 00:18:38.440 --> 00:18:41.559 kind of stories those kind of poems are more 00:18:41.559 --> 00:18:44.220 about sharing the story with other people to 00:18:44.220 --> 00:18:45.480 make sure something like that doesn't happen 00:18:45.480 --> 00:18:51.519 again or to educate or is it more about uh resisting 00:18:51.519 --> 00:18:56.619 by having certain characters of not go along 00:18:56.619 --> 00:18:59.079 with the flow or the sheer fact by telling that 00:18:59.079 --> 00:19:01.240 story, they're resisting because they're speaking 00:19:01.240 --> 00:19:05.099 out against something that is wrong. Yeah. I 00:19:05.099 --> 00:19:10.519 think all of the above. And in addition, for 00:19:10.519 --> 00:19:14.200 example, that play that I, you know, I had a 00:19:14.200 --> 00:19:19.160 hard time watching, as you know, that play was 00:19:19.160 --> 00:19:26.539 written before the dictatorship. So. It was a 00:19:26.539 --> 00:19:30.880 warning, you know, and that is a prophetic power 00:19:30.880 --> 00:19:34.440 of literature. So prophecy is precisely, it's 00:19:34.440 --> 00:19:38.319 a warning. You know, if you read prophets in 00:19:38.319 --> 00:19:41.940 religions generally, I think, and I'm sure there 00:19:41.940 --> 00:19:44.440 might be exceptions, right? But the ones that 00:19:44.440 --> 00:19:47.619 I know about, that's what they were doing. They're 00:19:47.619 --> 00:19:49.920 not saying, okay, things are really terrible 00:19:49.920 --> 00:19:52.799 and they're going to get worse. No, they're like, 00:19:52.839 --> 00:19:56.109 if you... go on that path, it will really get 00:19:56.109 --> 00:19:59.009 bad. This is going to be a disaster. That's what 00:19:59.009 --> 00:20:04.049 prophets say. And so I think that art does that, 00:20:04.130 --> 00:20:09.289 the work of resistance, partly by prophesizing, 00:20:09.309 --> 00:20:12.750 by telling of the future. That's just one of 00:20:12.750 --> 00:20:15.210 the many ways. So that's what we saw in that 00:20:15.210 --> 00:20:19.009 play, Griselda Gambaros, The Walls. But for example, 00:20:19.269 --> 00:20:23.200 I can think of so many different examples. Chile, 00:20:23.339 --> 00:20:26.539 for example, during the dictatorship, they had 00:20:26.539 --> 00:20:29.220 this poetry called Palimpsest. So, you know, 00:20:29.240 --> 00:20:33.660 so the idea was they wrote in such a coded language 00:20:33.660 --> 00:20:38.200 that it went below the radar for the censors. 00:20:38.259 --> 00:20:41.960 Right. But the in crowd, the people like them, 00:20:42.099 --> 00:20:44.700 the people who were the victims of the dictatorship 00:20:44.700 --> 00:20:48.359 understood what it was actually about. And so 00:20:48.359 --> 00:20:51.380 they were able to publish many books that had 00:20:51.380 --> 00:20:56.069 this. content that gave people either information 00:20:56.069 --> 00:21:01.529 or suggested strategies for resistance. And they 00:21:01.529 --> 00:21:04.369 were able to go, you know, below the censors. 00:21:04.650 --> 00:21:08.069 So there's just so many different ways of doing 00:21:08.069 --> 00:21:10.750 it. It's just beautiful. Yeah, some of it is 00:21:10.750 --> 00:21:14.130 just poetry that seems like romantic, love story. 00:21:14.250 --> 00:21:17.390 But no, there's a lot more underneath that. So 00:21:17.390 --> 00:21:20.490 it's crazy, crazy interesting. That makes me 00:21:20.490 --> 00:21:24.730 think of films. Coming from a country that's 00:21:24.730 --> 00:21:28.349 been ruled by, has been a colony for the British 00:21:28.349 --> 00:21:31.309 and has had censorship in the ways people can 00:21:31.309 --> 00:21:35.630 meet and in the way we can discuss things. Film 00:21:35.630 --> 00:21:38.549 was a huge medium of communication, of spreading 00:21:38.549 --> 00:21:40.829 the message of influence in the crowds. Till 00:21:40.829 --> 00:21:42.930 date, we have a censor board in place because 00:21:42.930 --> 00:21:45.490 there are some films which, if released, talk 00:21:45.490 --> 00:21:47.269 about sensitive issues or something will cause 00:21:47.269 --> 00:21:50.400 riots or like... outbreaks or oppression of a 00:21:50.400 --> 00:21:53.319 specific crowd because that's the power that 00:21:53.319 --> 00:21:57.779 films have to influence to yeah to create to 00:21:57.779 --> 00:22:01.180 to do all those sorts of things yeah i'm curious 00:22:01.180 --> 00:22:05.200 about what cinema culture and films have to do 00:22:05.200 --> 00:22:08.880 uh or the role they play in this particular landscape 00:22:08.880 --> 00:22:12.200 and in the past and in the present how are they 00:22:12.200 --> 00:22:15.180 used to resist how did they overcome censorship 00:22:15.180 --> 00:22:18.460 of regimes and The role that they can play at 00:22:18.460 --> 00:22:20.880 large or the potential that they have to play 00:22:20.880 --> 00:22:25.759 in at large. Yeah. Well, I can think of. Oh, 00:22:25.859 --> 00:22:29.440 yeah, there's examples. So I can think of examples 00:22:29.440 --> 00:22:32.579 in Mexico, Argentina, Cuba. And so they do it 00:22:32.579 --> 00:22:36.380 different ways. In Mexico, it's amazing because 00:22:36.380 --> 00:22:40.599 they are the filmmakers are really smart and 00:22:40.599 --> 00:22:42.579 they of course, they're all really smart, but 00:22:42.579 --> 00:22:46.099 they're smart in the sense that they can. make 00:22:46.099 --> 00:22:48.160 stories that are super critical of the government, 00:22:48.319 --> 00:22:51.019 and then they get funding from the government 00:22:51.019 --> 00:22:54.799 to make their films. So it's really amazing. 00:22:55.220 --> 00:22:57.960 It doesn't always work, but I know of examples 00:22:57.960 --> 00:23:00.960 when it has worked, and they are really, really 00:23:00.960 --> 00:23:04.980 critical. I mean, one example that comes to my 00:23:04.980 --> 00:23:09.970 mind is a film called Red Dawn from Mexico. And 00:23:09.970 --> 00:23:12.750 it's a terrible story. It's the story of the 00:23:12.750 --> 00:23:16.470 there was a student movement in Mexico that was 00:23:16.470 --> 00:23:20.690 quashed by the government in a brutal way. And 00:23:20.690 --> 00:23:23.869 the story is about the 24 hours of the massacre. 00:23:24.089 --> 00:23:29.509 And it's yeah. And it's beautiful, beautifully 00:23:29.509 --> 00:23:33.690 done. You don't see any of the violence in on 00:23:33.690 --> 00:23:37.089 the screen, but you hear it and you see the people 00:23:37.089 --> 00:23:41.319 react to it. It's. It actually reminds me of 00:23:41.319 --> 00:23:44.559 the play by Gambaro of the other day, because 00:23:44.559 --> 00:23:46.839 it's similar, right? You just hear things, but 00:23:46.839 --> 00:23:48.819 nothing is really happening in front of your 00:23:48.819 --> 00:23:51.420 eyes. Similarly, and so this comes from Aristotle, 00:23:52.000 --> 00:23:55.019 actually. So the idea that, you know, you have 00:23:55.019 --> 00:23:58.099 to have decorum and you have to not be gruesome. 00:23:58.200 --> 00:24:01.779 And yet you can tell stories that are about massacres, 00:24:01.779 --> 00:24:05.720 for example. So that's, and these Mexican filmmakers 00:24:05.720 --> 00:24:10.450 do that kind of thing. take advantage of certain 00:24:10.450 --> 00:24:13.869 rules of censorship. They can go around them 00:24:13.869 --> 00:24:17.230 and yet they can tell exactly the message they 00:24:17.230 --> 00:24:22.170 want to tell. It's fascinating. It's really great. 00:24:23.210 --> 00:24:26.170 I'm very proud of that. Again, as you should 00:24:26.170 --> 00:24:30.730 be. Yeah. So let's talk about empowering marginalized 00:24:30.730 --> 00:24:35.210 communities. Something that's spoken a lot. about 00:24:35.210 --> 00:24:38.190 in a country like America and how artistic collaboration 00:24:38.190 --> 00:24:43.529 could be useful in that respect and where creativity 00:24:43.529 --> 00:24:47.589 and social justice kind of intersect. Yes, absolutely. 00:24:48.529 --> 00:24:51.109 I'll give you an example from Mexico. And then 00:24:51.109 --> 00:24:52.609 please remind me if I forget, because I want 00:24:52.609 --> 00:24:55.269 to tell you one about here as well. So the example 00:24:55.269 --> 00:24:58.309 that I can think of right now is how to empower 00:24:58.309 --> 00:25:03.720 a community through art. So first in my novel, 00:25:03.799 --> 00:25:06.599 I was the opposite. I was empowered by watching 00:25:06.599 --> 00:25:11.559 a community find their power. And so that's what 00:25:11.559 --> 00:25:16.039 the story is in Arribada, in my novel. Because 00:25:16.039 --> 00:25:19.740 what I tell, the story that I tell is not about 00:25:19.740 --> 00:25:24.880 rich people taking care of the poor. No, it's 00:25:24.880 --> 00:25:27.680 the poorest people. The ones that are the most 00:25:27.680 --> 00:25:30.900 oppressed saying this is not going to work. We 00:25:30.900 --> 00:25:35.539 must change the way they are doing things. And 00:25:35.539 --> 00:25:39.140 we're going to show them how to do it right. 00:25:39.319 --> 00:25:43.180 And so that's what happens in my novel. And I 00:25:43.180 --> 00:25:46.339 do it that way, not because it was my idea. No, 00:25:46.420 --> 00:25:49.460 it's because communities do that in Latin America 00:25:49.460 --> 00:25:54.539 and in Mexico specifically. the poorest communities 00:25:54.539 --> 00:25:58.779 are the ones that are at the forefront of the 00:25:58.779 --> 00:26:01.180 fight for the environment. They are the leaders. 00:26:01.640 --> 00:26:05.200 We are not the leaders. People with university 00:26:05.200 --> 00:26:09.539 degrees, no, it's them. And so that's the story 00:26:09.539 --> 00:26:12.079 that I tell in my novel, is the educated people 00:26:12.079 --> 00:26:15.500 actually learning from the poor communities. 00:26:15.839 --> 00:26:18.799 They're the ones who know how to do it. And if 00:26:18.799 --> 00:26:21.680 we follow their lead... We can turn things around 00:26:21.680 --> 00:26:23.359 because they're doing it right and we're doing 00:26:23.359 --> 00:26:26.380 it wrong. So that's a story that's there. It's 00:26:26.380 --> 00:26:29.960 beautiful. Yeah. And I actually, so it's adorable. 00:26:30.140 --> 00:26:32.759 Well, it's more than adorable. It's just a dream 00:26:32.759 --> 00:26:35.420 for me because I was inspired by a particular 00:26:35.420 --> 00:26:39.200 community in the northwest of Mexico. And so 00:26:39.200 --> 00:26:42.359 I wrote about them, but I never met them. Because 00:26:42.359 --> 00:26:45.220 going to their community, you cannot just go 00:26:45.220 --> 00:26:47.619 there and show up and say, hey, I'm here. Give 00:26:47.619 --> 00:26:49.480 me a room. You know, I need I need a room to 00:26:49.480 --> 00:26:51.460 sleep tonight. And where's your restaurant? No, 00:26:51.519 --> 00:26:54.339 you need to ask permission. And because I didn't 00:26:54.339 --> 00:26:57.759 know anybody there, I didn't dare go. So I never 00:26:57.759 --> 00:27:01.180 did. Anyway, after I published the novel, I come 00:27:01.180 --> 00:27:03.400 into contact with a poet from that community. 00:27:04.079 --> 00:27:06.839 And I tell her, you know, I wrote a novel about 00:27:06.839 --> 00:27:09.240 you. And she's like, oh, my God, thank you. So 00:27:09.240 --> 00:27:11.859 that was great. And so now we're going to collaborate 00:27:11.859 --> 00:27:16.440 for a children's story. Oh, nice. Yeah. So she's 00:27:16.440 --> 00:27:18.059 going to do it in her language and I'm doing 00:27:18.059 --> 00:27:20.019 it in Spanish and in English in three languages. 00:27:20.220 --> 00:27:24.559 Yeah. So that's really lovely. So how does art 00:27:24.559 --> 00:27:27.940 empower people? I think that people empower writers 00:27:27.940 --> 00:27:32.700 if you're humble enough to tell their stories 00:27:32.700 --> 00:27:35.789 is what I feel. And of course, you know, like 00:27:35.789 --> 00:27:39.150 the power that we have, writers have, is that 00:27:39.150 --> 00:27:42.089 we can, you know, distribute that message. You 00:27:42.089 --> 00:27:44.529 know, you can send it elsewhere so that more 00:27:44.529 --> 00:27:47.410 people, you're just a conduit. You know, you're 00:27:47.410 --> 00:27:50.930 just letting that knowledge and that wisdom go 00:27:50.930 --> 00:27:53.970 through you, through your story so that others 00:27:53.970 --> 00:27:57.730 can share, you know, can learn from them as well. 00:27:57.970 --> 00:28:00.430 And it's not just people who are in the writing 00:28:00.430 --> 00:28:04.039 profession. paraphrase and change the words of 00:28:04.039 --> 00:28:06.039 the quote from the Disney film ratatouille anybody 00:28:06.039 --> 00:28:08.940 can cook so anybody can write exactly anybody 00:28:08.940 --> 00:28:13.119 can do art yeah absolutely art is is something 00:28:13.119 --> 00:28:15.519 that's constantly fluid and changing and or the 00:28:15.519 --> 00:28:18.380 arts are something that's constantly fluid and 00:28:18.380 --> 00:28:21.640 changing so anybody can express these same thoughts 00:28:21.640 --> 00:28:25.859 it's not just for writers or for people who said 00:28:25.859 --> 00:28:27.819 okay i'm going to be in the profession or have 00:28:27.819 --> 00:28:31.420 fancy degrees in this field anybody can write 00:28:31.920 --> 00:28:35.440 And because of that, anybody can reclaim that 00:28:35.440 --> 00:28:39.259 power to make voices heard, tell the stories 00:28:39.259 --> 00:28:42.380 that aren't being told and do things that influence 00:28:42.380 --> 00:28:44.960 the masses through their work. No question. I 00:28:44.960 --> 00:28:47.160 so much agree. And that's what I tell my students. 00:28:47.279 --> 00:28:49.339 So, no, it's really true. I mean, if you think 00:28:49.339 --> 00:28:53.240 about it, like if you need neurosurgery, right, 00:28:53.259 --> 00:28:55.640 like you have a problem and you need surgery, 00:28:55.680 --> 00:28:58.750 right? You don't go to someone who was born a 00:28:58.750 --> 00:29:01.289 neurosurgeon, right? Like the neurosurgeon had 00:29:01.289 --> 00:29:04.069 a lot of years of schooling before he could open 00:29:04.069 --> 00:29:07.210 your, you know, your bones here and take care 00:29:07.210 --> 00:29:10.730 of you or whatever, right? Same thing. I mean, 00:29:10.750 --> 00:29:14.289 you want to be an artist or a writer? You can 00:29:14.289 --> 00:29:17.269 do it. You just have to learn how to. And there's 00:29:17.269 --> 00:29:18.869 teachers who can teach you how to, you know, 00:29:18.890 --> 00:29:21.569 show you the path or one of the paths or a number 00:29:21.569 --> 00:29:23.589 of the paths because there's not just one, right? 00:29:23.670 --> 00:29:26.920 There's many. But absolutely. I mean, anyone 00:29:26.920 --> 00:29:30.299 can write and anyone can be like an accomplished 00:29:30.299 --> 00:29:33.720 writer. You can. You certainly can. Look at me. 00:29:35.740 --> 00:29:38.279 Yeah, no, it's really true. Yeah. So it's just 00:29:38.279 --> 00:29:41.480 a matter. And I think the arts are probably I'm 00:29:41.480 --> 00:29:43.839 not an expert on the other arts, but I think 00:29:43.839 --> 00:29:46.059 so. I think that you can you can learn to write 00:29:46.059 --> 00:29:48.119 a song. You can learn to make a painting or to 00:29:48.119 --> 00:29:52.160 draw. You can learn, you know, and you just have 00:29:52.160 --> 00:29:54.990 to find your own language. You have to find your 00:29:54.990 --> 00:29:59.130 own particular path. And each person is different. 00:29:59.390 --> 00:30:03.569 And that's what's beautiful, I think. Yeah. So 00:30:03.569 --> 00:30:07.670 what I wanted to say is that about here, about 00:30:07.670 --> 00:30:12.029 here, Vermont, I'm very interested in the migrant 00:30:12.029 --> 00:30:15.690 worker community. I know a good number of them. 00:30:15.829 --> 00:30:20.160 And, you know, I just find it so inspiring. Because 00:30:20.160 --> 00:30:23.539 it's a tiny community of Latin Americans, mostly 00:30:23.539 --> 00:30:28.240 Mexicans, who work in several industries, especially 00:30:28.240 --> 00:30:31.200 in the milk industry. So they, you know, they 00:30:31.200 --> 00:30:35.359 milk the cows. They take care of the cows. And 00:30:35.359 --> 00:30:37.119 other industries, so for example, construction 00:30:37.119 --> 00:30:42.359 and others. And they live very precarious existences 00:30:42.359 --> 00:30:46.000 because they don't have the law protecting them. 00:30:46.220 --> 00:30:49.779 Because many of them don't have... papers, right? 00:30:50.000 --> 00:30:54.420 And I find what they are going through harrowing. 00:30:54.799 --> 00:31:00.099 And yet I find what they are doing amazing because 00:31:00.099 --> 00:31:04.460 they defend themselves. They push for law changes. 00:31:04.839 --> 00:31:08.579 They don't have papers and they have had lawmakers 00:31:08.579 --> 00:31:12.440 in Vermont change the law so that they can get 00:31:12.440 --> 00:31:14.900 some of the rights that we all should have, that 00:31:14.900 --> 00:31:18.180 they should have as well. And I find that amazing. 00:31:18.720 --> 00:31:21.559 You know, they're not hiding. They show their 00:31:21.559 --> 00:31:23.640 faces. They go on demonstrations. They organize 00:31:23.640 --> 00:31:27.759 demonstrations. They go to the lawmakers in Montpelier. 00:31:28.259 --> 00:31:31.839 And they just passed an important law last year 00:31:31.839 --> 00:31:34.400 and another one this year. The one last year 00:31:34.400 --> 00:31:36.920 is for education. So they have access to education. 00:31:37.359 --> 00:31:40.980 And now everybody does, including them here in 00:31:40.980 --> 00:31:44.200 Vermont. And then the other this year is about 00:31:44.200 --> 00:31:46.859 construction. And so how... You know, the construction 00:31:46.859 --> 00:31:50.119 companies cannot treat them like robots. They're 00:31:50.119 --> 00:31:53.680 human beings. And now they have those laws protecting 00:31:53.680 --> 00:31:56.359 them. Those are two examples. And how does the 00:31:56.359 --> 00:32:00.579 art relate to that? I'm just trying to, I write 00:32:00.579 --> 00:32:03.640 stories about them and I'm trying to be, to accompany 00:32:03.640 --> 00:32:06.019 them, you know, to support them in whatever I 00:32:06.019 --> 00:32:08.259 can do. And what I can do is tell stories, right? 00:32:08.380 --> 00:32:10.900 So I'm writing their stories and I've published 00:32:10.900 --> 00:32:17.109 a few. And others, I have a blog, and so I write 00:32:17.109 --> 00:32:20.630 one of their stories every week. And those are 00:32:20.630 --> 00:32:24.049 ways that one can, me, because I am not them, 00:32:24.109 --> 00:32:26.170 you know. There's many things I cannot do that 00:32:26.170 --> 00:32:28.150 they do infinitely better than I could, even 00:32:28.150 --> 00:32:32.450 if I could do it. But I can do this. And so it's 00:32:32.450 --> 00:32:36.890 my way to tell their story so that others can 00:32:36.890 --> 00:32:40.109 hear about it and understand they deserve respect 00:32:40.109 --> 00:32:44.609 and our support. And so that's one thing that 00:32:44.609 --> 00:32:48.029 I think one can do. That makes me think of this 00:32:48.029 --> 00:32:51.490 question. Storytelling has so much power to it 00:32:51.490 --> 00:32:56.250 that you can... There's a very famous TED talk 00:32:56.250 --> 00:32:59.470 by Chimamanda Adichie, The Danger of a Single 00:32:59.470 --> 00:33:02.069 Story. I love it. We studied that in school. 00:33:02.329 --> 00:33:07.210 Yeah. And that's a very apt title. It is a danger 00:33:07.210 --> 00:33:11.470 for those who seek to oppress, seek to... take 00:33:11.470 --> 00:33:15.750 control and suppress and that one story can make 00:33:15.750 --> 00:33:18.369 all the difference so in your experience what 00:33:18.369 --> 00:33:21.210 do you think the true power or the true impact 00:33:21.210 --> 00:33:24.750 of storytelling is and the true importance of 00:33:24.750 --> 00:33:26.769 it let's put it like that and in the 21st century 00:33:26.769 --> 00:33:32.210 when the world is in the state that it is I think 00:33:32.210 --> 00:33:34.390 and I could be wrong and so you could disagree 00:33:34.390 --> 00:33:36.829 with me the world needs more storytellers oh 00:33:36.829 --> 00:33:40.700 absolutely and what is What is the impact of 00:33:40.700 --> 00:33:42.500 that? What's the importance? I mean, yes, it's 00:33:42.500 --> 00:33:45.920 easy to say we need more storytellers. But why? 00:33:46.059 --> 00:33:48.940 Why do we need more storytellers? Yeah, we certainly 00:33:48.940 --> 00:33:51.740 do. And we need storytellers that are different, 00:33:51.859 --> 00:33:55.140 which I think is what Adichie was saying. We 00:33:55.140 --> 00:33:57.880 need, you know, we need stories about Vermont, 00:33:58.019 --> 00:34:04.579 about Vermonters who are not your plain old person 00:34:04.579 --> 00:34:07.519 who was born here, whose family has been here 00:34:07.519 --> 00:34:09.659 for a number of generations. That's important, 00:34:09.880 --> 00:34:13.219 but that's been told. And maybe it hasn't been 00:34:13.219 --> 00:34:15.539 told in all ways and they should, by all means, 00:34:15.679 --> 00:34:20.199 please continue. But we need the stories of the 00:34:20.199 --> 00:34:22.119 people that I was just mentioning. You know, 00:34:22.159 --> 00:34:26.840 we need people to know that their neighbors live 00:34:26.840 --> 00:34:29.500 in the following way, that they have these accomplishments 00:34:29.500 --> 00:34:34.119 and they have them despite a society that doesn't 00:34:34.119 --> 00:34:36.579 care for them, doesn't know them, does not acknowledge 00:34:36.579 --> 00:34:39.199 them. does not support them or respect them. 00:34:39.960 --> 00:34:42.980 I'm not saying everybody does that, but many 00:34:42.980 --> 00:34:46.800 people enough do that so that their result is, 00:34:46.860 --> 00:34:50.480 you know, they are kind of dispossessed. And 00:34:50.480 --> 00:34:54.579 that has to change. And so that's just one example, 00:34:54.679 --> 00:34:58.380 right? But we could make lists of examples. No? 00:34:58.599 --> 00:35:02.920 Yeah. And in another example that I was just 00:35:02.920 --> 00:35:07.139 mentioning before, so my novel. Arribada is about 00:35:07.139 --> 00:35:10.360 these upper class girls who are just like, yeah, 00:35:10.380 --> 00:35:13.760 playing piano and being really, you know, happy 00:35:13.760 --> 00:35:16.840 life. But then they discover the problems that 00:35:16.840 --> 00:35:19.360 I was mentioning about the sea turtles and the 00:35:19.360 --> 00:35:22.440 beaches, et cetera. And they realize that they 00:35:22.440 --> 00:35:25.380 have a lot to learn, that their university studies 00:35:25.380 --> 00:35:27.239 are not going to, we're not going to teach them. 00:35:27.320 --> 00:35:31.599 They, you know, those particular girls, young 00:35:31.599 --> 00:35:35.440 women. And instead they need someone to, you 00:35:35.440 --> 00:35:37.659 know, there are people who already have that 00:35:37.659 --> 00:35:40.019 knowledge. And what they need to do is listen 00:35:40.019 --> 00:35:44.219 and respect those other stories. And so in my, 00:35:44.360 --> 00:35:47.619 from my perspective, what I can do is tell that 00:35:47.619 --> 00:35:52.059 story of those people learning from the indigenous 00:35:52.059 --> 00:35:56.119 person and then learning to follow that lead. 00:35:56.559 --> 00:35:59.199 And so I think that if we followed more leads. 00:35:59.789 --> 00:36:01.889 of people like them, we would be in a much better 00:36:01.889 --> 00:36:05.369 shape as a society. Yeah, both here in Vermont, 00:36:05.650 --> 00:36:08.150 as I said, and as an example in Mexico as well. 00:36:08.869 --> 00:36:15.190 I think across the world. Yeah, not just everywhere. 00:36:15.789 --> 00:36:18.409 Another way that I can think of is what happens 00:36:18.409 --> 00:36:25.400 in the morning to me, right? On a good day. The 00:36:25.400 --> 00:36:28.900 way I like to start my day after my little exercise 00:36:28.900 --> 00:36:32.440 and a little yoga and things like that is I take 00:36:32.440 --> 00:36:35.880 my notebook and I have nothing to say. There's 00:36:35.880 --> 00:36:39.539 no agenda, nothing like that. And some of the 00:36:39.539 --> 00:36:42.079 best writing I've done comes from those moments, 00:36:42.239 --> 00:36:44.219 you know, when I have like, oh, I have to write 00:36:44.219 --> 00:36:47.579 chapter five about this, you know? No, it's like 00:36:47.579 --> 00:36:50.699 I just take a pen, not even a pen, a pencil and 00:36:50.699 --> 00:36:56.300 my notebook and I just scribble. what comes out 00:36:56.300 --> 00:37:01.280 are stories about people protecting themselves 00:37:01.280 --> 00:37:04.820 and each other against oppression. And, but they 00:37:04.820 --> 00:37:08.000 come in a very free way, you know, so art is 00:37:08.000 --> 00:37:10.920 liberating to me personally, which is why I'm 00:37:10.920 --> 00:37:13.340 saying this, you know, this is that moment in 00:37:13.340 --> 00:37:17.039 the mornings feels liberating because I am doing 00:37:17.039 --> 00:37:20.800 what I love most, which is telling stories. And 00:37:20.800 --> 00:37:23.559 then the stories that come out are very sincere, 00:37:23.679 --> 00:37:27.300 frankly, and very kind of to the point, although 00:37:27.300 --> 00:37:29.400 I didn't plan them or anything. And they are 00:37:29.400 --> 00:37:32.039 those that kind of stories, stories of resistance. 00:37:32.440 --> 00:37:36.139 So, yeah, that's another that's another way. 00:37:36.219 --> 00:37:38.860 And I think we were talking about it, how, you 00:37:38.860 --> 00:37:41.559 know, the monkey mind idea. That's why I decided 00:37:41.559 --> 00:37:44.159 to mention this again, because this notebook 00:37:44.159 --> 00:37:46.219 thing, you know, just you have your notebook 00:37:46.219 --> 00:37:49.719 next to your bed and. You hardly say hello. You 00:37:49.719 --> 00:37:51.239 hardly say good morning. You don't even brush 00:37:51.239 --> 00:37:53.679 your teeth. And the first thing you do is that. 00:37:53.780 --> 00:37:57.280 And your mind is kind of sleepy and hazy from 00:37:57.280 --> 00:37:59.980 the night and maybe you had a dream or something. 00:38:00.079 --> 00:38:02.480 And from those dreams and from those irrational 00:38:02.480 --> 00:38:06.059 thoughts that are kind of messy, that's where 00:38:06.059 --> 00:38:11.860 the better ideas come from for me. And that kind 00:38:11.860 --> 00:38:15.820 of ideas, the ideas of respecting humans, respecting 00:38:15.820 --> 00:38:21.099 life. respecting yourself and but not as an individual 00:38:21.099 --> 00:38:25.099 only as a community you know like telling others 00:38:25.099 --> 00:38:27.380 you have to stop what you're doing you know you 00:38:27.380 --> 00:38:29.739 have to respect us those are the stories that 00:38:29.739 --> 00:38:31.519 come out in the morning sometimes they come from 00:38:31.519 --> 00:38:34.820 birds like in front of me in the window I see 00:38:34.820 --> 00:38:37.739 birds chirping around and from that comes the 00:38:37.739 --> 00:38:40.860 story it's hard for me to explain but it's It's 00:38:40.860 --> 00:38:44.920 true. Believe me. Oh, yeah. I know. Inspiration 00:38:44.920 --> 00:38:47.019 strikes in the most random ways. You can't explain 00:38:47.019 --> 00:38:49.460 it, but when it does, it does. It's really true. 00:38:49.639 --> 00:38:53.920 Yeah. I'd love to hear some more personal anecdotes 00:38:53.920 --> 00:38:58.019 from you about how you've witnessed some of this 00:38:58.019 --> 00:39:00.559 stuff or how you've seen your own writing make 00:39:00.559 --> 00:39:06.280 that change or influence someone or has worked 00:39:06.280 --> 00:39:08.989 with. marginalized has worked for marginalized 00:39:08.989 --> 00:39:12.090 communities like for example there's a a poem 00:39:12.090 --> 00:39:15.530 of mine which I wrote with a very different intention 00:39:15.530 --> 00:39:18.670 with a very different goal behind it and somebody 00:39:18.670 --> 00:39:24.530 who who had an eating disorder said oh this is 00:39:24.530 --> 00:39:27.489 about me I relate to this it's like that's interesting 00:39:27.489 --> 00:39:29.429 I didn't think of it like that I thought of it 00:39:29.429 --> 00:39:31.429 in a very different way about something completely 00:39:31.429 --> 00:39:34.400 different unrelated to eating disorders but Everybody 00:39:34.400 --> 00:39:37.340 digs different things from literature, from writing, 00:39:37.460 --> 00:39:41.960 that makes it really unique to them. And how 00:39:41.960 --> 00:39:43.519 that can just be interpreted in different ways 00:39:43.519 --> 00:39:46.239 and make a difference in its own way. Yes, absolutely. 00:39:46.599 --> 00:39:49.039 In Arribada, well, Bosley Monari in Arribada, 00:39:49.059 --> 00:39:50.980 because it's the same story, but different novels. 00:39:52.300 --> 00:39:57.239 I tell the story of the uncle. So the protagonist 00:39:57.239 --> 00:40:00.679 is a young woman, 22 years old, and she's... 00:40:00.880 --> 00:40:05.619 She's a music student at Juilliard School of 00:40:05.619 --> 00:40:10.159 Music in New York City. And she's just there 00:40:10.159 --> 00:40:14.199 living the life in New York. And her uncle, who 00:40:14.199 --> 00:40:17.239 she grew up with, he was just a few years older 00:40:17.239 --> 00:40:21.380 than her. So the youngest sibling of her mom 00:40:21.380 --> 00:40:26.219 disappears. And that's the... crisis that begins 00:40:26.219 --> 00:40:28.260 the novel. So, you know, she's just hanging out 00:40:28.260 --> 00:40:31.400 there being an artist in New York, but she has 00:40:31.400 --> 00:40:33.840 to come back and drop everything she was doing 00:40:33.840 --> 00:40:37.139 and come back and help the family and look for 00:40:37.139 --> 00:40:40.119 her uncle who is missing. And so basically they 00:40:40.119 --> 00:40:41.760 spend the novel looking for him, and I'm not 00:40:41.760 --> 00:40:44.940 going to tell you how it goes. Okay. But that, 00:40:45.059 --> 00:40:49.500 well, it's unfortunately, it's easy to imagine 00:40:49.500 --> 00:40:54.800 how it goes. But the readers, many readers. that 00:40:54.800 --> 00:40:57.699 have read it have told me, this is the story 00:40:57.699 --> 00:41:01.179 of my family. You know, somebody went missing 00:41:01.179 --> 00:41:04.800 in my family and we had to go through that. And 00:41:04.800 --> 00:41:08.559 unfortunately, that's something that happens 00:41:08.559 --> 00:41:11.860 a lot in Mexico. That's one of the ways in which, 00:41:11.980 --> 00:41:16.820 firstly, the state in previous years, and now 00:41:16.820 --> 00:41:21.260 not the state, but organized crime, have been 00:41:21.260 --> 00:41:24.889 oppressing society, you know, so they, They kidnap 00:41:24.889 --> 00:41:30.289 people. And there's a horrible process of playing 00:41:30.289 --> 00:41:35.289 with the victims, you know, to extort money or 00:41:35.289 --> 00:41:37.630 et cetera, many different things that can happen, 00:41:37.690 --> 00:41:41.769 which are all horrible. And that is something 00:41:41.769 --> 00:41:46.130 that has happened to me. I have seen people tell 00:41:46.130 --> 00:41:50.769 me that's my story. And now I understand the 00:41:50.769 --> 00:41:54.699 reason why. It's important to not be quiet because 00:41:54.699 --> 00:41:58.280 one thing that they do, people who have had that, 00:41:58.360 --> 00:42:01.780 is not say a word because they are, it's so painful. 00:42:01.980 --> 00:42:05.039 They can't speak. They can't speak up. They can't 00:42:05.039 --> 00:42:07.099 do anything. They cannot resist. They can defend 00:42:07.099 --> 00:42:10.840 themselves, their family. So many of them are 00:42:10.840 --> 00:42:14.059 incapacitated. They don't do anything. And people 00:42:14.059 --> 00:42:16.940 who have read my novel have told me I need to 00:42:16.940 --> 00:42:20.760 stop doing that. So I was not expecting that. 00:42:21.519 --> 00:42:24.840 And in fact, yeah. So really, you know, in my 00:42:24.840 --> 00:42:27.539 novel, they don't do that. They don't go and 00:42:27.539 --> 00:42:30.719 defend themselves completely. They just, but 00:42:30.719 --> 00:42:35.840 it's told in a way that it shows you don't do 00:42:35.840 --> 00:42:39.400 that. Do this other thing. And I was, I was, 00:42:39.400 --> 00:42:42.900 um, it's, it was very heartening to me to, to 00:42:42.900 --> 00:42:45.440 see that is, is really moving and it's very painful, 00:42:45.519 --> 00:42:49.190 frankly, as well, you know? So that pain. can 00:42:49.190 --> 00:42:53.050 incapacitate you. But if you change something, 00:42:53.349 --> 00:42:56.789 you can turn it into a better, you can get your 00:42:56.789 --> 00:43:00.050 energy back and do something about it. I mean, 00:43:00.050 --> 00:43:02.809 that must be really scary at a point like that 00:43:02.809 --> 00:43:07.269 to imagine what if you got threats from the government 00:43:07.269 --> 00:43:09.769 or something saying, stop writing like this, 00:43:09.769 --> 00:43:12.170 or if they start censoring you. I mean, you happen 00:43:12.170 --> 00:43:13.989 to be in America, but you're also a Mexican citizen, 00:43:14.130 --> 00:43:17.889 right? It must be scary. Did at any point you 00:43:17.889 --> 00:43:20.769 feel, OK, I'm going to stop writing like this 00:43:20.769 --> 00:43:22.769 or let me go redact that or change it? Were you 00:43:22.769 --> 00:43:24.530 pretty adamant on this is what I'm going to say 00:43:24.530 --> 00:43:25.989 and this is how I'm going to say it? No problem. 00:43:26.090 --> 00:43:28.730 No. And besides, I should say very clearly that 00:43:28.730 --> 00:43:31.769 those problems of censorship in Mexico are not 00:43:31.769 --> 00:43:35.690 there anymore. OK. So we are in a new spring 00:43:35.690 --> 00:43:38.829 of democracy in Mexico. So it's lovely. But it's 00:43:38.829 --> 00:43:41.090 actually short. You know, it's just been six, 00:43:41.289 --> 00:43:43.730 seven years. So it's very, very short. But we're 00:43:43.730 --> 00:43:47.610 enjoying it. It's lovely. And I was writing before 00:43:47.610 --> 00:43:50.769 that, but I didn't care. I was doing it anyway. 00:43:51.090 --> 00:43:53.789 So, for example, I'm doing it now and I don't 00:43:53.789 --> 00:43:56.050 care. I'm still doing it. I'm teaching what I'm 00:43:56.050 --> 00:43:58.849 teaching. I'm writing what I'm writing. And I 00:43:58.849 --> 00:44:01.510 hope I won't get in trouble, but I'm not going 00:44:01.510 --> 00:44:04.829 to stop. You know, like I'm not invincible. I'm 00:44:04.829 --> 00:44:08.090 not Superman, but I'm not going to stop. And 00:44:08.090 --> 00:44:14.320 I hope everything will be OK. I think so. The 00:44:14.320 --> 00:44:18.239 best way to understand it is to see those stories. 00:44:18.719 --> 00:44:21.219 If you read one of the stories, not necessarily 00:44:21.219 --> 00:44:23.280 mine, but any of the stories that I mentioned, 00:44:23.500 --> 00:44:26.659 you'll see the examples. And it basically shows 00:44:26.659 --> 00:44:30.900 a person who is in danger, you know, a person 00:44:30.900 --> 00:44:33.840 or a community, a person in their community who 00:44:33.840 --> 00:44:40.300 are in danger. They have a lot to risk. And it's 00:44:40.300 --> 00:44:42.650 a forking path. On the one hand, you can stay 00:44:42.650 --> 00:44:46.309 quiet and put your head down and just pray nothing 00:44:46.309 --> 00:44:50.329 wrong will continue happening, right? But it's 00:44:50.329 --> 00:44:53.010 already happening. And on the other, you can 00:44:53.010 --> 00:44:56.309 make a change. And the stories are about that. 00:44:56.489 --> 00:44:58.869 So the stories are about the people being right 00:44:58.869 --> 00:45:02.409 in that forking path and making a choice. And 00:45:02.409 --> 00:45:07.329 some characters in stories go one way and others 00:45:07.329 --> 00:45:10.039 go on another way. And the ones who go in the 00:45:10.039 --> 00:45:13.380 way of resistance, they don't have it easy. They 00:45:13.380 --> 00:45:16.559 have it really hard. But they accomplish a few 00:45:16.559 --> 00:45:19.800 things. And sometimes they risk their lives, 00:45:19.940 --> 00:45:24.400 frankly. But they do it. And so that's what I 00:45:24.400 --> 00:45:29.179 think. If you can put yourself on that, you know, 00:45:29.219 --> 00:45:31.400 in the middle of the why, of the forking path, 00:45:31.659 --> 00:45:33.800 you're like, okay, should I go this way or that 00:45:33.800 --> 00:45:36.579 way? Put yourself in the shoes of the character. 00:45:37.449 --> 00:45:39.750 And then decide which way are you going to go? 00:45:39.789 --> 00:45:41.869 Which way would you go? And what happens if you 00:45:41.869 --> 00:45:44.210 go the other way? And that's the story. Tell 00:45:44.210 --> 00:45:48.170 the story. So, you know, that's as basic as that. 00:45:48.349 --> 00:45:50.849 Yeah. Tell the story and see where it goes, where 00:45:50.849 --> 00:45:52.650 it takes you. Because you don't know where it's 00:45:52.650 --> 00:45:54.610 going to go. Like, I didn't know how I was going 00:45:54.610 --> 00:45:57.929 to finish my stories until very close to the 00:45:57.929 --> 00:46:00.010 ending. And then I'm like, oh, yeah, that's... 00:46:00.010 --> 00:46:01.510 That's where they're going to take it. So -and 00:46:01.510 --> 00:46:02.989 -so's going to die. No, they're not going to 00:46:02.989 --> 00:46:05.380 die. Like, you know, like... It's going to be 00:46:05.380 --> 00:46:09.059 this way. You discover that as you go. So it's 00:46:09.059 --> 00:46:11.239 hard to know. But if you put yourself in that 00:46:11.239 --> 00:46:14.579 little why, in that forking path, in that particular 00:46:14.579 --> 00:46:18.539 spot, you know you must decide something. It's 00:46:18.539 --> 00:46:21.360 either this or that. And then that path is going 00:46:21.360 --> 00:46:25.539 to take you places. That's amazing. Does that 00:46:25.539 --> 00:46:30.900 make sense? It does. Yeah? So I ask every one 00:46:30.900 --> 00:46:34.539 of my guests. uh to share with our listeners 00:46:34.539 --> 00:46:39.019 one big idea pertinent to the episode now it 00:46:39.019 --> 00:46:41.840 could be related unrelated what is one takeaway 00:46:41.840 --> 00:46:45.079 the audience should have from hearing about this 00:46:45.079 --> 00:46:47.579 from hearing about how the arts can be a form 00:46:47.579 --> 00:46:50.360 of resistance from hearing your story the stories 00:46:50.360 --> 00:46:53.460 that you've told um what is one thing that they 00:46:53.460 --> 00:46:55.500 should take away from this it could be about 00:46:55.500 --> 00:46:58.360 writing it could be about life it could be anything 00:46:58.360 --> 00:47:02.880 i think The main takeaway for my life, for my 00:47:02.880 --> 00:47:05.480 students, maybe, you know, if they agree with 00:47:05.480 --> 00:47:09.679 me and for my readers is it's never too late 00:47:09.679 --> 00:47:15.360 and go for it. Because, you know, we sometimes 00:47:15.360 --> 00:47:19.420 feel paralyzed by our fears, by our insecurities, 00:47:19.800 --> 00:47:22.679 lack of confidence, like, or maybe I don't even 00:47:22.679 --> 00:47:24.559 have time for that and I'm just going to do this 00:47:24.559 --> 00:47:28.260 easy thing instead. No, go for it. If you care, 00:47:28.440 --> 00:47:32.239 just try it. it might work. It most probably 00:47:32.239 --> 00:47:36.500 will. And yeah, and I'm saying that as a writer, 00:47:36.679 --> 00:47:39.260 I'm saying that as a, you know, as an activist, 00:47:39.579 --> 00:47:42.780 you know, seeing people who are activists and 00:47:42.780 --> 00:47:47.260 how much they have accomplished. And I love it 00:47:47.260 --> 00:47:50.900 when I see people respond to that, including 00:47:50.900 --> 00:47:53.940 kids, because I have short stories for kids as 00:47:53.940 --> 00:47:56.659 well. And the kids are like, look, teacher. They 00:47:56.659 --> 00:48:00.179 call me teacher. They're adorable. Look, you 00:48:00.179 --> 00:48:02.460 know, this is this is my turtle. You know, she's 00:48:02.460 --> 00:48:05.019 fine. She's not going to die. And, you know, 00:48:05.019 --> 00:48:08.300 and I just feel these kids are going to grow 00:48:08.300 --> 00:48:12.760 up loving turtles. And I feel like I am so accomplished 00:48:12.760 --> 00:48:15.539 because I help them get there. And it's just, 00:48:15.599 --> 00:48:18.519 you know, like it works. You know, it actually 00:48:18.519 --> 00:48:22.480 works. You can make a difference. It's not for 00:48:22.480 --> 00:48:25.260 me. It's for them. It's for the kids. And the 00:48:25.260 --> 00:48:27.639 kids are going to tell their parents, like, hey, 00:48:27.699 --> 00:48:30.059 what are you doing? You're just polluting the 00:48:30.059 --> 00:48:32.719 beach. Don't throw that trash there or whatever. 00:48:32.980 --> 00:48:38.579 Be careful with the turtle. And so you create 00:48:38.579 --> 00:48:43.760 a community of people who care. And that's possible. 00:48:44.039 --> 00:48:47.780 We can all do that. Yeah. So hopefully more people 00:48:47.780 --> 00:48:50.559 will. Because we really need that. Yeah. We need 00:48:50.559 --> 00:48:53.059 that for these days. People who care. Yeah. And 00:48:53.059 --> 00:48:56.480 I think the other thing would be tell more stories. 00:48:56.539 --> 00:49:00.719 Yes. Keep telling stories. For sure. Make things 00:49:00.719 --> 00:49:07.219 up. Yeah. Remember that every story has a huge 00:49:07.219 --> 00:49:09.619 amount of power behind it. Absolutely. Oh, my 00:49:09.619 --> 00:49:13.960 gosh. Absolutely. Yeah. And when I say go for 00:49:13.960 --> 00:49:15.800 it, it's like, okay, you feel like you have a 00:49:15.800 --> 00:49:18.639 story to tell? Write it. And if you don't feel 00:49:18.639 --> 00:49:20.519 like writing because, you know, like, oh, my 00:49:20.519 --> 00:49:23.460 gosh, I'm not sure. Well, record it on your phone 00:49:23.460 --> 00:49:27.019 and then turn it into a text, you know, give 00:49:27.019 --> 00:49:30.380 it all the shape that it needs. It will be a 00:49:30.380 --> 00:49:34.579 story that people can hear. And that's we all 00:49:34.579 --> 00:49:39.079 have stories, you know, we tell them so important. 00:49:39.659 --> 00:49:42.659 And if you have grannies, you know, ask them 00:49:42.659 --> 00:49:45.719 their stories. That's really important. Grandpas. 00:49:45.719 --> 00:49:48.880 Yeah. It's about listening as well as telling. 00:49:49.460 --> 00:49:52.119 Absolutely. Yeah. I think that's a huge takeaway 00:49:52.119 --> 00:49:54.780 and something we've heard recurring across a 00:49:54.780 --> 00:49:58.400 lot of episodes is we need to take the time to 00:49:58.400 --> 00:50:03.699 listen. I could not agree more. Absolutely. We 00:50:03.699 --> 00:50:05.559 need to listen. People tend to love the sound 00:50:05.559 --> 00:50:07.360 of their own voices and constantly want to talk 00:50:07.360 --> 00:50:09.300 and want to always tell about, oh, everything's 00:50:09.300 --> 00:50:12.059 about me, me, me, I, I, I. Yeah, I know. But 00:50:12.059 --> 00:50:13.719 what about the person in front of you? Absolutely. 00:50:13.920 --> 00:50:17.239 No, no, no. It could not be more true. Yeah. 00:50:18.000 --> 00:50:20.079 That's why I say, you know, grannies, grandpas, 00:50:20.219 --> 00:50:23.019 you know, people in your community, you never 00:50:23.019 --> 00:50:25.579 know where the story... And, you know, this listening 00:50:25.579 --> 00:50:27.500 is, of course, listening with your ears, but 00:50:27.500 --> 00:50:29.519 you can also listen with your eyes. Watch what 00:50:29.519 --> 00:50:32.340 they do. And what they do can be amazing. It's 00:50:32.340 --> 00:50:34.780 probably amazing. And all you got to do is actually 00:50:34.780 --> 00:50:37.800 pay attention. So listening is paying attention, 00:50:37.980 --> 00:50:41.409 right? And wow, you know, it's like... Look what 00:50:41.409 --> 00:50:44.230 they do. And here I am just being a couch potato, 00:50:44.429 --> 00:50:46.469 doing nothing. I can't tell you the amount of 00:50:46.469 --> 00:50:48.769 times I feel this. Like if I start telling people 00:50:48.769 --> 00:50:51.769 the story of my grandparents on my mom's side, 00:50:51.789 --> 00:50:53.989 my mom's parents, actually both sides of the 00:50:53.989 --> 00:50:55.610 grandparents have been through really crazy lives. 00:50:55.750 --> 00:51:00.050 But my grandfather, he's 98 now. He's doing pretty 00:51:00.050 --> 00:51:06.269 well. We'll go see him soon. He was a freedom 00:51:06.269 --> 00:51:08.980 fighter. Wow. For the Indian independence movement. 00:51:09.039 --> 00:51:12.000 Oh my God. He went to jail around the same time 00:51:12.000 --> 00:51:15.219 Gandhi did. They were in the same jail. He ran 00:51:15.219 --> 00:51:17.619 away from home at the age of 12 because his parents 00:51:17.619 --> 00:51:20.260 wanted to get him married and he didn't want 00:51:20.260 --> 00:51:23.099 to. So he made it on his own. He used to sit 00:51:23.099 --> 00:51:26.199 under a lamppost and sketch people. Wow. And 00:51:26.199 --> 00:51:28.860 sell that to them and make money from that to 00:51:28.860 --> 00:51:30.980 the point where he made enough to get a space, 00:51:31.300 --> 00:51:33.699 start classes, started teaching people. Wow. 00:51:33.780 --> 00:51:36.829 He later went on to start a school. He ran the 00:51:36.829 --> 00:51:39.829 school for 54 years, his principal at that school, 00:51:39.869 --> 00:51:42.989 and he only charged the bare minimum fee that 00:51:42.989 --> 00:51:46.630 he needed to run the place, 20 rupees. He made 00:51:46.630 --> 00:51:51.250 over 300 paintings and statues. Wow. So really, 00:51:51.409 --> 00:51:55.349 really a self -made man and really impressive. 00:51:55.349 --> 00:51:58.190 If I look at my grandmother, daughter of a collector 00:51:58.190 --> 00:52:01.329 or something, very well -off, but so modern thinking, 00:52:01.530 --> 00:52:04.039 never let her daughters into the kitchen. Never 00:52:04.039 --> 00:52:05.940 forced them to do any of that. It was like always, 00:52:06.099 --> 00:52:11.380 it'll be handled. My grandmother on my dad's 00:52:11.380 --> 00:52:13.639 side, after my grandfather passed away when my 00:52:13.639 --> 00:52:16.300 dad was five years old, she was thrown out of 00:52:16.300 --> 00:52:19.300 the house with the children and all the money 00:52:19.300 --> 00:52:22.360 was stolen, the whole thing over there. Moved 00:52:22.360 --> 00:52:25.860 across the country to Mumbai, started her life 00:52:25.860 --> 00:52:27.699 off thanks to her brother's help over there. 00:52:27.900 --> 00:52:31.840 Wow. And made it herself. Yeah. mother of two 00:52:31.840 --> 00:52:36.780 kids in a city that is vicious I mean Bombay 00:52:36.780 --> 00:52:40.139 is great I love it but it's it's not very kind 00:52:40.139 --> 00:52:44.159 to everyone just the stories take the time to 00:52:44.159 --> 00:52:45.559 sit and listen every time I listen to them I'm 00:52:45.559 --> 00:52:48.179 just in awe of the fact that that's the way they 00:52:48.179 --> 00:52:50.780 live their life and I have a lot to live up to 00:52:52.079 --> 00:52:54.460 Oh, no, you're doing very well, I have to say. 00:52:54.619 --> 00:52:57.300 You're doing very, very well. Thank you. Yeah, 00:52:57.440 --> 00:53:00.460 this actually reminds me of my new novel, which 00:53:00.460 --> 00:53:03.860 I am right now negotiating the contract to publish 00:53:03.860 --> 00:53:06.860 it. And it's a story about my family, precisely. 00:53:07.000 --> 00:53:09.840 So in my family, there are stories like that. 00:53:09.920 --> 00:53:12.800 And I'm like, wow, you know, I need to put this 00:53:12.800 --> 00:53:15.400 down. And then I discovered that there's connections 00:53:15.400 --> 00:53:19.730 with the history of Mexico. in those stories. 00:53:19.849 --> 00:53:23.010 And I'm like, oh, when one of my my great grandpa 00:53:23.010 --> 00:53:26.670 was a freedom fighter, too, which this is this 00:53:26.670 --> 00:53:30.090 is what reminded me. And so I decided, OK, I'm 00:53:30.090 --> 00:53:32.650 going to tell that part. And so it got bigger 00:53:32.650 --> 00:53:34.690 and bigger. And so, you know, the auntie and 00:53:34.690 --> 00:53:36.789 the grandma and all the other like all the other 00:53:36.789 --> 00:53:39.170 characters started like showing up in the novel, 00:53:39.230 --> 00:53:41.889 you know, and I'm like, this is awesome. So it's 00:53:41.889 --> 00:53:44.150 not the story of my family, but it's the story 00:53:44.150 --> 00:53:48.699 of my community. through my family's personal 00:53:48.699 --> 00:53:52.880 stories. And it's like so fun. It's for young 00:53:52.880 --> 00:53:55.599 people. So, you know, the person, the editor 00:53:55.599 --> 00:53:57.920 was telling me, I like it because it's for young 00:53:57.920 --> 00:54:00.739 people. And I'm like, I'm glad you got that because 00:54:00.739 --> 00:54:03.340 it's about a young woman who is 20 years old 00:54:03.340 --> 00:54:06.059 and she does parkour. So she climbs on buildings 00:54:06.059 --> 00:54:11.099 and that's how it starts. And so, yes, I think 00:54:11.099 --> 00:54:16.579 it's super important to listen. And there's a 00:54:16.579 --> 00:54:20.500 wealth of experience all around us. And we can 00:54:20.500 --> 00:54:24.900 do it. Yeah. So I hope you will tell your family 00:54:24.900 --> 00:54:27.159 stories one day. Thank you. I hope to be able 00:54:27.159 --> 00:54:30.260 to do that too. And with that, I think we're 00:54:30.260 --> 00:54:32.860 at the end of our episode. Thank you so much 00:54:32.860 --> 00:54:35.679 for joining us. It's been lovely speaking to 00:54:35.679 --> 00:54:37.260 you. I know we're going to have many, many more 00:54:37.260 --> 00:54:39.679 conversations off the podcast as well. I look 00:54:39.679 --> 00:54:41.800 forward to those. Absolutely. Yes. Thank you 00:54:41.800 --> 00:54:44.179 so much for monkeying around with us. Stay tuned 00:54:44.179 --> 00:54:46.059 for the next episode of the Monkey Mind Lab.