WEBVTT 00:00:18.989 --> 00:00:22.309 Welcome back to the Monkey Mind Lab. Today we 00:00:22.309 --> 00:00:25.750 have with us Professor Dana Yeaton, Associate 00:00:25.750 --> 00:00:28.989 Professor of Theatre at Middlebury College and 00:00:28.989 --> 00:00:32.390 a distinguished playwright and educator. A Middlebury 00:00:32.390 --> 00:00:36.009 alumnus, Dana has significantly influenced the 00:00:36.009 --> 00:00:39.549 stage and the classroom. His acclaimed works 00:00:39.549 --> 00:00:44.070 include Mad River Rising, which earned the Moss 00:00:44.070 --> 00:00:48.810 Hart Award, and Helen at Risk, a recipient After 00:00:48.810 --> 00:00:51.810 Heidenman Award, his musical Swing State was 00:00:51.810 --> 00:00:54.270 featured at the New York Musical Theater Festival. 00:00:55.469 --> 00:00:59.210 Yetton's plays often explore depths of everyday 00:00:59.210 --> 00:01:02.450 life, blending humor and poignancy to reveal 00:01:02.450 --> 00:01:06.390 profound human experiences. Beyond playwriting, 00:01:06.730 --> 00:01:09.829 Dana is a passionate advocate for the art of 00:01:09.829 --> 00:01:14.230 the spoken word. In 2014, he founded Oratory 00:01:14.230 --> 00:01:17.230 Now, a student -driven initiative in Middlebury. 00:01:17.680 --> 00:01:20.680 that has trained over 7 ,000 students in effective 00:01:20.680 --> 00:01:24.400 public speaking. Through workshops, peer coaching, 00:01:24.579 --> 00:01:28.200 and campus -wide events, Oratory Now empowers 00:01:28.200 --> 00:01:31.659 students to communicate their ideas with clarity 00:01:31.659 --> 00:01:35.939 and confidence. Please join me in welcoming Professor 00:01:35.939 --> 00:01:39.299 Dana Yeaton. Well, hello, Abir. Thanks for having 00:01:39.299 --> 00:01:41.980 me. Let's begin with the first set of questions 00:01:41.980 --> 00:01:44.680 that we usually ask everyone. What is it that 00:01:44.680 --> 00:01:48.129 you do? What got you into it? And why do you 00:01:48.129 --> 00:01:52.909 do it? Well, you've touched on it. I was a poet 00:01:52.909 --> 00:01:55.790 in school, a wannabe poet, found that playwriting 00:01:55.790 --> 00:01:59.569 was a better fit and devoted, I'll say, the rest 00:01:59.569 --> 00:02:01.469 of my life to it, but because playwrights need 00:02:01.469 --> 00:02:05.209 something else to do, that became teaching, that 00:02:05.209 --> 00:02:10.090 other thing. And somehow that led me to what 00:02:10.090 --> 00:02:12.750 I think of as a spinoff from playwriting, another 00:02:12.750 --> 00:02:15.210 element of it, which makes a fair amount of sense, 00:02:15.270 --> 00:02:17.379 right? We're still... Standing in front of an 00:02:17.379 --> 00:02:19.620 audience when we're doing oratory, we're still 00:02:19.620 --> 00:02:22.599 wondering what will keep people's attention. 00:02:23.340 --> 00:02:27.699 We're still trying to make a change, make something 00:02:27.699 --> 00:02:33.240 happen in a live situation. But those two things 00:02:33.240 --> 00:02:39.300 have continued to interweave and amaze me. And 00:02:39.300 --> 00:02:43.400 the teaching of it, I can't imagine needing to 00:02:43.400 --> 00:02:46.080 teach the same thing over and over. Nominally, 00:02:46.080 --> 00:02:48.620 I have. It's playwriting or speaking, but those 00:02:48.620 --> 00:02:51.360 change for every single student. So I've never 00:02:51.360 --> 00:02:53.620 had to read the same play twice from two different 00:02:53.620 --> 00:02:56.139 writers. I've never heard the same speech twice 00:02:56.139 --> 00:02:59.099 from two different speakers. So the subject matter 00:02:59.099 --> 00:03:02.039 changes. And that's what keeps me on my learning 00:03:02.039 --> 00:03:05.240 edge and keeps me excited. That sounds really 00:03:05.240 --> 00:03:08.259 fun. What did I leave out? Did you ask a question 00:03:08.259 --> 00:03:12.060 beyond what do I do? Why do I do it? Maybe I've 00:03:12.060 --> 00:03:16.289 covered it. When I looked around at the world 00:03:16.289 --> 00:03:19.009 of poetry, still thinking that was my chosen 00:03:19.009 --> 00:03:22.569 field. And back then, I was a kind of parody 00:03:22.569 --> 00:03:25.610 of a student, meaning I was actually smoking 00:03:25.610 --> 00:03:28.129 a pipe and drinking tea. Like I really wanted 00:03:28.129 --> 00:03:31.949 to be an intellectual and a poet. I'm not saying 00:03:31.949 --> 00:03:34.250 other people were doing that, but I wore different 00:03:34.250 --> 00:03:37.150 colored socks and I was just trying to become 00:03:37.150 --> 00:03:41.949 a human with a brand. I just felt like, no, I 00:03:41.949 --> 00:03:44.770 don't really fit in. And the beauty of the words 00:03:44.770 --> 00:03:48.629 is not enough for me. I want change. I want things 00:03:48.629 --> 00:03:52.310 to happen as a result of the words that I craft. 00:03:52.370 --> 00:03:55.449 And I started to get suspicious of words, feeling 00:03:55.449 --> 00:03:58.449 like they were sort of seducing me to say things 00:03:58.449 --> 00:04:01.270 that I maybe didn't yet mean. The breakthrough 00:04:01.270 --> 00:04:04.009 then would have been, in a way, looking back 00:04:04.009 --> 00:04:06.349 and seeing how many of my poems were actually 00:04:06.349 --> 00:04:09.069 monologues, were actually in the voices of people, 00:04:09.169 --> 00:04:12.199 not me. and how that freed me up. I did a few 00:04:12.199 --> 00:04:15.300 solo plays and performed them, and that was a 00:04:15.300 --> 00:04:17.519 great lesson in why I shouldn't be on the stage, 00:04:17.579 --> 00:04:22.129 ultimately. So... The part of writing that is 00:04:22.129 --> 00:04:25.009 I deliver something and then disappear and other 00:04:25.009 --> 00:04:27.610 people present it has always appealed to me. 00:04:27.689 --> 00:04:30.269 The part of that that is necessarily collaborative 00:04:30.269 --> 00:04:34.709 excites me. It takes you out of the solo sadness 00:04:34.709 --> 00:04:38.389 of writing and puts you in the world, even if 00:04:38.389 --> 00:04:40.750 you're sitting there thinking about that next 00:04:40.750 --> 00:04:45.050 phase and imagining that audience. So I find 00:04:45.050 --> 00:04:49.279 that kind of irresistible because it means. Well, 00:04:49.300 --> 00:04:50.800 I'll give you the analogy. I was walking across 00:04:50.800 --> 00:04:52.980 campus the other day and a kid came up and said, 00:04:53.079 --> 00:04:55.600 I want to give you this camera. What would you 00:04:55.600 --> 00:04:58.339 call it? A real camera, but a plastic one, right? 00:04:58.420 --> 00:05:01.959 One of these disposable camera. And he says, 00:05:02.019 --> 00:05:04.680 I just want you to take a bunch of pictures and 00:05:04.680 --> 00:05:08.779 I'll develop them. And I walk away and suddenly 00:05:08.779 --> 00:05:11.819 the campus is not the same campus anymore because 00:05:11.819 --> 00:05:14.199 I'm looking through the lens, the imaginary lens 00:05:14.199 --> 00:05:17.579 of the camera. And when you're a writer, In a 00:05:17.579 --> 00:05:20.199 way, that's what the world does. It turns into 00:05:20.199 --> 00:05:23.000 not potential material, but you're just paying 00:05:23.000 --> 00:05:27.139 attention in a way. It's a lens I'm addicted 00:05:27.139 --> 00:05:30.459 to. So maybe that's the answer to why I do it. 00:05:30.480 --> 00:05:33.899 It's a way of being alive and being maybe a little 00:05:33.899 --> 00:05:39.540 extra alive. That's a beautiful analogy. Okay, 00:05:39.660 --> 00:05:42.019 it's time for the big question of the day. So 00:05:42.019 --> 00:05:44.139 from what I understand, you're a big advocate 00:05:44.139 --> 00:05:48.000 of oratory. one of the coaches myself. So here 00:05:48.000 --> 00:05:52.220 it is. Is oratory the liberal art that will save 00:05:52.220 --> 00:05:55.480 the liberal arts and balance the budget? Is it? 00:05:55.639 --> 00:05:58.740 That's my claim. I'm trying to make a big, perhaps 00:05:58.740 --> 00:06:01.839 an overly large claim and then see if I can support 00:06:01.839 --> 00:06:04.699 it. Okay. And I should explain, I'm in the mood 00:06:04.699 --> 00:06:07.420 for this because you may or may not know that 00:06:07.420 --> 00:06:10.800 three weeks from now, I will teach my last class 00:06:10.800 --> 00:06:14.079 and I will walk from that class to a lecture 00:06:14.079 --> 00:06:17.769 hall and give my first faculty lecture. And it 00:06:17.769 --> 00:06:20.110 will be to some extent on this topic. I might 00:06:20.110 --> 00:06:24.829 hype it as my secret plan to save liberal arts 00:06:24.829 --> 00:06:27.970 and the college all in one. But I am serious 00:06:27.970 --> 00:06:31.589 about the role that training people to stand 00:06:31.589 --> 00:06:34.470 in front of each other and speak their truth 00:06:34.470 --> 00:06:37.850 can have the catalytic effect that that can have 00:06:37.850 --> 00:06:42.290 both on the speaker and the audience. And whenever 00:06:42.290 --> 00:06:46.980 I bring up that I do this things, perhaps somebody 00:06:46.980 --> 00:06:49.600 on an airplane or something. They're like, the 00:06:49.600 --> 00:06:52.980 moment I mentioned speaking, they will come out 00:06:52.980 --> 00:06:55.339 with their relationship. And normally they're 00:06:55.339 --> 00:06:58.060 difficult, tortured relationship with speaking. 00:06:59.139 --> 00:07:03.399 And it's a very vulnerable spot for so many people. 00:07:03.459 --> 00:07:06.240 And I find that telling and I find it concerning 00:07:06.240 --> 00:07:09.300 because I think what that means is. though we're 00:07:09.300 --> 00:07:11.220 willing to share our opinions in lots of different 00:07:11.220 --> 00:07:14.560 circumstances, when we have to literally stand 00:07:14.560 --> 00:07:19.180 in front of others, all eyes on us, we suddenly 00:07:19.180 --> 00:07:23.959 shrink in that light. We lose our sense of self 00:07:23.959 --> 00:07:28.079 and we fall back on, I don't know, earlier versions 00:07:28.079 --> 00:07:30.519 of ourselves, smaller versions of ourselves. 00:07:30.720 --> 00:07:34.639 We fall back on jargon and vocabulary and perhaps 00:07:34.639 --> 00:07:37.589 the... the discipline we're speaking in so we 00:07:37.589 --> 00:07:40.569 can hide ourselves behind speaking it properly 00:07:40.569 --> 00:07:44.129 with a level of objectivity that exonerates us 00:07:44.129 --> 00:07:46.730 from what we are about to say or what we're failing 00:07:46.730 --> 00:07:51.290 to say. So that means what all those problems 00:07:51.290 --> 00:07:54.089 add up to is an enormous opportunity. And when 00:07:54.089 --> 00:07:57.050 I found out how I felt about oratory, it was 00:07:57.050 --> 00:07:59.750 just speeches that I'd heard before that would 00:07:59.750 --> 00:08:01.670 make me cry. And I'm sort of like, what's wrong 00:08:01.670 --> 00:08:05.279 with me? Why is this? Why is the timbre of this 00:08:05.279 --> 00:08:09.459 voice still doing this to me? It's got my nervous 00:08:09.459 --> 00:08:12.480 system. It's got my number. What's that about? 00:08:12.839 --> 00:08:15.920 When I decided to teach a first -year seminar, 00:08:15.980 --> 00:08:19.360 it was like, damn it, I'm not going to do playwriting. 00:08:19.560 --> 00:08:21.379 I don't want to do creative writing with new 00:08:21.379 --> 00:08:23.860 writers because I feel like that's too rarefied 00:08:23.860 --> 00:08:26.579 in a way. I want to help people write better, 00:08:26.660 --> 00:08:29.100 and the fastest way I know how to do that is 00:08:29.100 --> 00:08:33.059 by helping them speak before writing. speak as 00:08:33.059 --> 00:08:36.000 part of developing the writing and that's when 00:08:36.000 --> 00:08:38.460 I put the pieces together and what if we study 00:08:38.460 --> 00:08:43.679 speeches in order to analyze and ultimately deliver 00:08:43.679 --> 00:08:46.360 our own what are the principles behind this and 00:08:46.360 --> 00:08:49.360 can we apply them and correct me if I'm wrong 00:08:49.360 --> 00:08:53.159 writing meant for reading versus writing meant 00:08:53.159 --> 00:08:56.899 for speaking is very different ideally and and 00:08:56.899 --> 00:08:59.759 it takes a lot for people to make that switch 00:09:00.440 --> 00:09:03.340 To be able to write, to speak. Isn't that odd 00:09:03.340 --> 00:09:07.500 that what we do all day is the hard part when 00:09:07.500 --> 00:09:10.139 we do it in front of others? So we're used to 00:09:10.139 --> 00:09:11.779 writing. We're used to sharing our thoughts that 00:09:11.779 --> 00:09:14.500 way. It's not maybe our favorite thing to do, 00:09:14.559 --> 00:09:17.899 but we've learned to do it. We've been schooled 00:09:17.899 --> 00:09:21.080 in it. We spent many, many hours doing it. And 00:09:21.080 --> 00:09:24.460 while I appreciate all the work that goes into 00:09:24.460 --> 00:09:27.679 that, I wouldn't take a minute away from... the 00:09:27.679 --> 00:09:30.240 schooling that we get in writing and in reading, 00:09:30.340 --> 00:09:34.179 that I think tips the scales too far towards 00:09:34.179 --> 00:09:37.740 an artificial voice that we develop that is the 00:09:37.740 --> 00:09:40.580 voice we use when we write. So many people who 00:09:40.580 --> 00:09:44.259 struggle with writing, it's because, as I imagine 00:09:44.259 --> 00:09:47.100 it, it's they think it needs to be better than 00:09:47.100 --> 00:09:49.460 they are. They think it needs to represent them 00:09:49.460 --> 00:09:52.759 in a certain way. They think there's a protocol 00:09:52.759 --> 00:09:55.980 that must be observed and it's not their way. 00:09:56.490 --> 00:09:59.570 So they become artificial. In that first class 00:09:59.570 --> 00:10:03.769 that I taught, I think it was 2011, I had a student 00:10:03.769 --> 00:10:06.610 who was struggling to write, really whip smart 00:10:06.610 --> 00:10:10.970 kid from upstate New York. And he would talk, 00:10:11.129 --> 00:10:13.750 and he would describe what he was trying to do. 00:10:13.830 --> 00:10:15.190 First of all, he would come in with a draft, 00:10:15.350 --> 00:10:18.289 unintelligible. Just, I didn't know where to 00:10:18.289 --> 00:10:21.529 start. So I kind of put my hand on his and said, 00:10:21.570 --> 00:10:25.210 just tell me, what's this about? A few moments 00:10:25.210 --> 00:10:28.340 later. I pull out, this is a dirty trick, maybe 00:10:28.340 --> 00:10:31.720 illegal. I pull out my recording device and I 00:10:31.720 --> 00:10:34.759 play for him what he just said. And I watch his 00:10:34.759 --> 00:10:38.440 eyes light up because he's hearing his first 00:10:38.440 --> 00:10:41.659 paragraph. He's hearing what he meant, but he 00:10:41.659 --> 00:10:43.220 couldn't say it when he was trying to write. 00:10:43.320 --> 00:10:46.120 But when he was telling me, just telling me, 00:10:46.200 --> 00:10:50.580 it was perfectly cogent. It was all it needed 00:10:50.580 --> 00:10:53.240 to be. So a lot of what I thought first year 00:10:53.240 --> 00:10:56.620 writers needed was just calm down. Don't try 00:10:56.620 --> 00:10:59.679 to write like someone else. Try to think. Try 00:10:59.679 --> 00:11:02.659 to think out loud. Try to think out loud with 00:11:02.659 --> 00:11:04.519 a group of people who are doing the same thing 00:11:04.519 --> 00:11:07.340 and compare notes on what works and what's difficult 00:11:07.340 --> 00:11:11.000 and how did you get over that. And I thought 00:11:11.000 --> 00:11:13.360 we had really good results. I thought people, 00:11:13.480 --> 00:11:16.779 when I went to their writing and talked to them 00:11:16.779 --> 00:11:21.139 about it as if it were spoken, looking for that 00:11:21.139 --> 00:11:23.659 clarity. trying to talk them down from all the 00:11:23.659 --> 00:11:26.080 adjectives and the SAT words that had gotten 00:11:26.080 --> 00:11:29.620 them here. Then I think they started to sense, 00:11:29.720 --> 00:11:33.200 oh, this isn't what I thought it was. I'm not 00:11:33.200 --> 00:11:36.700 trying to be smarter than I am. I'm not trying 00:11:36.700 --> 00:11:39.059 to convince you that I, I'm not writing only 00:11:39.059 --> 00:11:41.940 to convince you that I understood. I'm writing 00:11:41.940 --> 00:11:45.000 to show you what my experience was, which takes 00:11:45.000 --> 00:11:48.659 them out of the role of writing something, the 00:11:48.659 --> 00:11:51.019 only purpose of which could ever be for a grade. 00:11:51.519 --> 00:11:54.460 to please a teacher and taking them to the place 00:11:54.460 --> 00:11:56.720 where it's like, maybe there's something in this 00:11:56.720 --> 00:12:00.820 for me. Maybe I had an experience worth sharing 00:12:00.820 --> 00:12:03.620 in relation to this material that we're looking 00:12:03.620 --> 00:12:06.200 at, often in relation to a speech we're hearing. 00:12:06.460 --> 00:12:11.360 When oratory kicked in, it was obvious that the 00:12:11.360 --> 00:12:14.679 key to that particular angle to helping students 00:12:14.679 --> 00:12:17.419 do it on a scale was to have students doing the 00:12:17.419 --> 00:12:21.090 coaching. So then... The challenge, and I still 00:12:21.090 --> 00:12:26.330 love it, was how will we help someone help someone? 00:12:27.629 --> 00:12:31.429 Now we've got to really essentialize these skills. 00:12:31.649 --> 00:12:34.750 What is at the bottom of this? Because if you're 00:12:34.750 --> 00:12:37.889 not crystal clear, it's going to get distorted 00:12:37.889 --> 00:12:41.929 as it goes out. Not everybody can do what a director 00:12:41.929 --> 00:12:44.950 does and stand there and come up with the perfect 00:12:44.950 --> 00:12:47.909 comment that helps someone find their intention. 00:12:49.000 --> 00:12:51.000 Many of us just want to say, could you say it 00:12:51.000 --> 00:12:55.279 slower? Could you speak up? And the principle 00:12:55.279 --> 00:12:57.899 that a theater director would use, it wouldn't 00:12:57.899 --> 00:13:00.759 be correction. It certainly wouldn't be, let 00:13:00.759 --> 00:13:03.340 me say it the way you should say it, right? The 00:13:03.340 --> 00:13:06.559 line reading. So some of those concepts from 00:13:06.559 --> 00:13:10.159 the rehearsal room, basically all of those concepts 00:13:10.159 --> 00:13:14.840 from the rehearsal room, informed the curriculum 00:13:14.840 --> 00:13:19.519 that we developed in Oratory Now. come to believe 00:13:19.519 --> 00:13:24.200 since then is that we need more and more opportunities 00:13:24.200 --> 00:13:26.279 to do that. So there are speaking competitions 00:13:26.279 --> 00:13:28.919 that we built, but most recently the first year 00:13:28.919 --> 00:13:31.919 symposium. So this is how I get to my claim, 00:13:32.200 --> 00:13:36.879 right? So in 2018, there were four classes that 00:13:36.879 --> 00:13:39.100 met at the same time my first year seminar met, 00:13:39.220 --> 00:13:42.159 and we decided to do a symposium to each other 00:13:42.159 --> 00:13:45.279 at the end. It was a positive psychology class, 00:13:45.379 --> 00:13:48.799 a class about Italy. places in Italy and there 00:13:48.799 --> 00:13:52.240 was an Arab, a Middle Eastern studies class and 00:13:52.240 --> 00:13:56.360 my oratory class. So zero in common, except here 00:13:56.360 --> 00:13:59.759 we were doing our first year seminars. But the 00:13:59.759 --> 00:14:01.700 mere fact that we were going to present to each 00:14:01.700 --> 00:14:04.139 other changed the nature of what we were doing, 00:14:04.179 --> 00:14:08.000 not the entire semester, but we knew we were 00:14:08.000 --> 00:14:11.720 working toward it. And in fact, one class we 00:14:11.720 --> 00:14:15.240 actually did together, but it just meant. We've 00:14:15.240 --> 00:14:17.240 got to understand this at such a level that we 00:14:17.240 --> 00:14:18.940 can communicate it to somebody who didn't read 00:14:18.940 --> 00:14:21.480 the same books, who didn't look at the same maps, 00:14:21.639 --> 00:14:23.980 who doesn't have the same vocabulary. And in 00:14:23.980 --> 00:14:27.279 an accessible way. Called public scholarship. 00:14:27.860 --> 00:14:34.039 You know, look it up. So it has now expanded 00:14:34.039 --> 00:14:37.000 to where over the past three years, we ran a 00:14:37.000 --> 00:14:40.240 first year symposium that more than half of the 00:14:40.240 --> 00:14:45.360 first year seminars participated in. So we had, 00:14:45.539 --> 00:14:48.100 I remember the number, not from this last year, 00:14:48.139 --> 00:14:50.840 but the year before, 337 presenters, a lot of 00:14:50.840 --> 00:14:54.100 kids, more than half of the first year class 00:14:54.100 --> 00:14:57.759 in the fall. They presented to each other a minute, 00:14:57.899 --> 00:15:00.639 two minutes, three minutes max. They might be 00:15:00.639 --> 00:15:03.720 group presentations. It might be the spring symposium 00:15:03.720 --> 00:15:07.539 for all students, might be poster presentations. 00:15:08.059 --> 00:15:11.080 There was a performance at one point, some drumming 00:15:11.080 --> 00:15:14.120 and so on. But the idea is show what you know. 00:15:15.500 --> 00:15:18.559 And I'm a big proponent of that. You know, I 00:15:18.559 --> 00:15:21.539 just feel like if instead of writing, if instead 00:15:21.539 --> 00:15:24.659 of proving what you know by writing the paper, 00:15:24.740 --> 00:15:26.960 or better yet, in addition to writing the paper, 00:15:27.100 --> 00:15:31.120 you've got to find a way to share that out. That 00:15:31.120 --> 00:15:37.360 is, that changes the dynamic. First of all, it 00:15:37.360 --> 00:15:39.740 puts you, it makes you a first year scholar. 00:15:41.320 --> 00:15:43.659 It puts you in a community, and it shows you 00:15:43.659 --> 00:15:47.100 your community. I try to imagine what it's like 00:15:47.100 --> 00:15:48.919 to be a first -year student here, and what I'm 00:15:48.919 --> 00:15:53.000 told is the major thought coming in is, will 00:15:53.000 --> 00:15:56.740 I have friends? Forget education. It's social. 00:15:57.340 --> 00:16:00.799 Will I have friends? Well, the friends you meet, 00:16:00.879 --> 00:16:03.179 you might meet in class, but not many people 00:16:03.179 --> 00:16:05.600 talk about friendships founded in class. More 00:16:05.600 --> 00:16:10.019 often, extracurriculars. Well, what if as you're 00:16:10.019 --> 00:16:12.059 doing your extracurriculars, as you're living 00:16:12.059 --> 00:16:14.700 your life, one of the ways in which you come 00:16:14.700 --> 00:16:17.960 to know other people is academically, is through 00:16:17.960 --> 00:16:20.320 the way their mind works when they're addressing 00:16:20.320 --> 00:16:25.500 a topic of interest to them. So that got me jazzed. 00:16:26.240 --> 00:16:29.399 And I started thinking that that could be the 00:16:29.399 --> 00:16:31.899 organizing principle for a revision of the first 00:16:31.899 --> 00:16:34.779 year seminar program, which will revolutionize 00:16:34.779 --> 00:16:39.950 education at Middlebury, unify it. And I haven't 00:16:39.950 --> 00:16:41.769 really figured this part out, but somehow it 00:16:41.769 --> 00:16:47.210 will balance the budget. Okay. Can I go on? Oh, 00:16:47.289 --> 00:16:51.289 absolutely. Okay. So right now we have what's 00:16:51.289 --> 00:16:54.149 called the college writing requirement. And among 00:16:54.149 --> 00:16:57.029 faculty, there's a fair amount of concern that 00:16:57.029 --> 00:17:00.149 some feel quite comfortable doing that, teaching 00:17:00.149 --> 00:17:03.529 writing. Others avoid it like the plague and 00:17:03.529 --> 00:17:06.779 others. go along with it but just feel like this 00:17:06.779 --> 00:17:10.119 is not my best stuff this is not me playing a 00:17:10.119 --> 00:17:14.579 home game my subject matter i love it i i can't 00:17:14.579 --> 00:17:17.900 wait to share it and i'm willing to do the writing 00:17:17.900 --> 00:17:21.799 component but not happily yeah and then there 00:17:21.799 --> 00:17:25.680 are others who just refuse they just won't and 00:17:25.680 --> 00:17:28.160 i have some sympathy for that i i also have an 00:17:28.160 --> 00:17:30.660 argument against it which is yes but you may 00:17:30.660 --> 00:17:35.650 not write, but you do communicate and you do 00:17:35.650 --> 00:17:38.890 show your work and you show it in certain ways 00:17:38.890 --> 00:17:42.309 that help people outside your field understand 00:17:42.309 --> 00:17:46.210 it, that's public scholarship. Let's do that. 00:17:46.309 --> 00:17:51.950 Let's all do that. So my thought is replace CW 00:17:51.950 --> 00:17:54.950 with public scholarship. There's a public scholarship 00:17:54.950 --> 00:17:59.369 requirement element to the first year seminar. 00:17:59.960 --> 00:18:02.859 You can do it in a symposium context. You can 00:18:02.859 --> 00:18:07.779 do it in a podcast. You could do it with a museum 00:18:07.779 --> 00:18:11.819 exhibit. You know, the goal or the challenge 00:18:11.819 --> 00:18:15.720 is to show your work outside. And what that would 00:18:15.720 --> 00:18:21.079 be doing is putting the liberal art of oratory 00:18:21.079 --> 00:18:28.430 to work, unifying the first year seminar. What 00:18:28.430 --> 00:18:31.450 to me is even more exciting than that is that 00:18:31.450 --> 00:18:34.569 it would be using that liberal art that has been 00:18:34.569 --> 00:18:37.049 around since before the Greeks, probably, but 00:18:37.049 --> 00:18:40.329 certainly since the ancient Greeks. It would 00:18:40.329 --> 00:18:44.349 be using one of the liberal arts to unite the 00:18:44.349 --> 00:18:46.769 liberal arts, to show the commonality of it. 00:18:47.130 --> 00:18:50.230 So I don't mean this, but I'll say it anyway. 00:18:50.369 --> 00:18:54.710 Just imagine that you take every title of every 00:18:54.710 --> 00:18:57.289 first year seminar that's taught. And you put 00:18:57.289 --> 00:19:01.410 and the liberal arts after it. So whatever that 00:19:01.410 --> 00:19:02.789 course is, what was your first year seminar? 00:19:03.230 --> 00:19:06.490 I took fairy tales of the world. And the liberal 00:19:06.490 --> 00:19:11.369 arts. Okay. Growth and its limits and the liberal 00:19:11.369 --> 00:19:14.670 arts. So would they literally have to put and 00:19:14.670 --> 00:19:17.490 the liberal arts in? I don't think so. But I 00:19:17.490 --> 00:19:20.609 have two ways of thinking about it. Make connecting 00:19:20.609 --> 00:19:23.750 your subject matter to the liberal arts part 00:19:23.750 --> 00:19:27.029 of the mission. of the first year seminar, or 00:19:27.029 --> 00:19:30.450 better, make it the challenge of each season 00:19:30.450 --> 00:19:33.809 of first year seminars. Next fall, whatever's 00:19:33.809 --> 00:19:38.250 taught, each course will include a reflection 00:19:38.250 --> 00:19:40.769 on how this relates to the liberal art, how it 00:19:40.769 --> 00:19:45.710 is part of the interwoven network of disciplines 00:19:45.710 --> 00:19:51.150 that makes what we do here so valuable. We have 00:19:51.150 --> 00:19:53.849 to get people ready for jobs that don't exist 00:19:53.849 --> 00:19:57.740 yet. We have to create learners who don't leave 00:19:57.740 --> 00:20:01.220 here with their professional skills and knowledge 00:20:01.220 --> 00:20:04.099 base sufficient to what's going to be asked of 00:20:04.099 --> 00:20:06.839 them. It's just not possible. We don't know what 00:20:06.839 --> 00:20:09.960 you need to know, but we know some protocols, 00:20:10.119 --> 00:20:13.099 some disciplines, some capacities that would 00:20:13.099 --> 00:20:16.619 help you make whatever maneuver you need to make. 00:20:17.200 --> 00:20:22.119 So first year seminar and the liberal arts is 00:20:22.119 --> 00:20:27.240 my idea for how to reimagine the first year seminar 00:20:27.240 --> 00:20:32.140 program. Now, I believe that what happens in 00:20:32.140 --> 00:20:36.119 your first months here will have an outsized 00:20:36.119 --> 00:20:40.160 impact on the rest of your time here. If at the 00:20:40.160 --> 00:20:42.759 end of your first semester, you feel like you 00:20:42.759 --> 00:20:44.980 have a sense of what other people are up to, 00:20:45.039 --> 00:20:47.759 you have a respect for the disciplines that you... 00:20:47.980 --> 00:20:49.859 don't know anything about or know very little 00:20:49.859 --> 00:20:52.079 about. You've actually learned something from 00:20:52.079 --> 00:20:56.059 your peers. You know them as people who have 00:20:56.059 --> 00:20:59.980 been part of an experiment to see how they respond 00:20:59.980 --> 00:21:05.299 to the game go, to growth and its limits, etc. 00:21:06.339 --> 00:21:09.900 And in that pursuit, what we've managed to do, 00:21:10.000 --> 00:21:13.759 and this may sound more mercenary than I want 00:21:13.759 --> 00:21:19.059 it to, is we've sold you on the model of education 00:21:19.059 --> 00:21:22.380 that you've bought into. We've tried to prove 00:21:22.380 --> 00:21:26.200 that the liberal arts is the most effective way 00:21:26.200 --> 00:21:30.400 to train someone. That grounding, that sense 00:21:30.400 --> 00:21:34.500 that I don't need to study something else to 00:21:34.500 --> 00:21:38.680 have an appreciation for its value. I do find 00:21:38.680 --> 00:21:42.099 other ways of learning and thinking attractive. 00:21:42.319 --> 00:21:46.259 And while I'm here, I want to visit them. I didn't. 00:21:46.759 --> 00:21:50.400 go to business school. I came here. That's what 00:21:50.400 --> 00:21:53.619 I think could help the liberal arts earn its 00:21:53.619 --> 00:21:56.640 keep in a society that is increasingly questioning 00:21:56.640 --> 00:21:59.680 the value of the liberal arts, the value of higher 00:21:59.680 --> 00:22:02.680 education in general. What will replace us if 00:22:02.680 --> 00:22:05.819 we're not winning that argument? Professional 00:22:05.819 --> 00:22:09.720 schools, right? It will be that you just go into 00:22:09.720 --> 00:22:14.000 a slipstream learning. to perform a certain job, 00:22:14.200 --> 00:22:16.640 regardless of the other skills that could help 00:22:16.640 --> 00:22:20.480 you do it at a higher level. So there's my monologue 00:22:20.480 --> 00:22:24.140 turned into of a case that I want to make on 00:22:24.140 --> 00:22:26.680 my way out the door. I think of it as totally 00:22:26.680 --> 00:22:29.039 uncontroversial. There couldn't be, I can't see 00:22:29.039 --> 00:22:31.140 any problem with it. And I don't know why it 00:22:31.140 --> 00:22:34.519 won't be immediately adapted. So the obvious 00:22:34.519 --> 00:22:36.539 benefit to having students trained in oratory 00:22:36.539 --> 00:22:41.859 is of course, in any job that one applies for 00:22:41.859 --> 00:22:44.619 or in any leadership position, communication 00:22:44.619 --> 00:22:48.460 is key. And when people start communicating with 00:22:48.460 --> 00:22:52.259 ums and ahs and buts and likes and all of that, 00:22:52.480 --> 00:22:57.000 it shows that they don't know their own thoughts. 00:22:57.220 --> 00:22:59.700 They're not being able to process it out well. 00:22:59.900 --> 00:23:03.460 Apart from the obvious benefits of being able 00:23:03.460 --> 00:23:06.380 to communicate effectively because you have the 00:23:06.380 --> 00:23:09.579 future leaders of the world coming up from from 00:23:09.579 --> 00:23:12.440 places like this. And of course, my generation 00:23:12.440 --> 00:23:14.759 is going to take on the world and be responsible 00:23:14.759 --> 00:23:17.599 for it. Would you say that public speaking and 00:23:17.599 --> 00:23:21.720 oratory has a larger role to play in the education 00:23:21.720 --> 00:23:25.680 system itself, apart from the obvious benefits 00:23:25.680 --> 00:23:28.240 of communication skills? Oh, you'll be shocked 00:23:28.240 --> 00:23:31.619 to hear my answer. Yes. Think of it this way. 00:23:31.680 --> 00:23:36.140 We inhale what we read and what we hear. We exhale 00:23:36.140 --> 00:23:40.519 what we write and what we speak. And these modalities 00:23:40.519 --> 00:23:44.880 are connected. And that is how we learn that 00:23:44.880 --> 00:23:50.119 there's an in and an out. So this particular 00:23:50.119 --> 00:23:56.660 skill, speaking, the corollary of writing, is 00:23:56.660 --> 00:23:59.279 not just a subject matter, but a way to learn. 00:23:59.720 --> 00:24:02.980 It's a capacity that allows us to internalize 00:24:02.980 --> 00:24:06.319 what's going on around us and to make use of 00:24:06.319 --> 00:24:11.099 it. It allows us... to interact minus listening 00:24:11.099 --> 00:24:16.519 and speaking, we're not very effective and we 00:24:16.519 --> 00:24:19.559 can't experience that thing that sustains us 00:24:19.559 --> 00:24:24.420 social life without it. So this is about as core 00:24:24.420 --> 00:24:28.019 as it gets. It is literally the breath without 00:24:28.019 --> 00:24:34.640 which no human. So I started thinking it's not 00:24:34.640 --> 00:24:38.460 just good in those obvious ways? In what way 00:24:38.460 --> 00:24:42.359 is it also good, but perhaps not self -evidently? 00:24:42.519 --> 00:24:45.579 When you are speaking, the challenge is that 00:24:45.579 --> 00:24:47.500 you're doing it with your body in front of other 00:24:47.500 --> 00:24:50.140 people. If you could just send the message, it 00:24:50.140 --> 00:24:53.180 would be much less anxiety -inducing. We all 00:24:53.180 --> 00:24:56.559 know this. It being there physically, especially 00:24:56.559 --> 00:25:00.920 standing, your whole body exposed. So how does 00:25:00.920 --> 00:25:05.809 one get over that? Well, for one thing, You learn 00:25:05.809 --> 00:25:10.109 process anxiety. You learn to deal with anxiety 00:25:10.109 --> 00:25:13.630 and you learn to maybe relabel it as we like 00:25:13.630 --> 00:25:16.289 to say as excitement. Because it's that too. 00:25:16.490 --> 00:25:20.150 It's performance energy. Especially for actors 00:25:20.150 --> 00:25:22.630 and young performers going on stage right before 00:25:22.630 --> 00:25:25.009 your cue, you can just feel your heart going 00:25:25.009 --> 00:25:27.470 all over the place. Athletes know all about this, 00:25:27.549 --> 00:25:32.710 right? If you can't control or channel that. 00:25:33.480 --> 00:25:36.859 wonderful adrenaline rush that you get and the 00:25:36.859 --> 00:25:40.660 kind of focus that you get. If you can't refocus 00:25:40.660 --> 00:25:44.240 under duress, you're not going to perform well 00:25:44.240 --> 00:25:47.799 in any pressure situation. So it's practice for 00:25:47.799 --> 00:25:50.839 that. But I was thinking of it this morning. 00:25:50.920 --> 00:25:54.920 If we want you to leave with something, where 00:25:54.920 --> 00:25:58.460 is that located? And I don't want it to just 00:25:58.460 --> 00:26:02.640 be in that small real estate of your cranium. 00:26:03.119 --> 00:26:06.000 I want it to be more lasting than that in your 00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:09.460 whole body. You need it in your bones. You need 00:26:09.460 --> 00:26:13.019 this sense of yourself, which is that I can stand 00:26:13.019 --> 00:26:16.940 here and not feel awkward standing here. That's 00:26:16.940 --> 00:26:19.339 an enormous accomplishment. What that's telling 00:26:19.339 --> 00:26:24.920 your nervous system is apparently I deserve this 00:26:24.920 --> 00:26:27.460 attention that I'm about to get, that I'm getting. 00:26:28.000 --> 00:26:32.059 And I'm capable of riding the emotions. that 00:26:32.059 --> 00:26:37.859 stir me, that come up involuntarily. Yup, there's 00:26:37.859 --> 00:26:41.279 that little fluttering in my stomach. Yup, there's 00:26:41.279 --> 00:26:43.900 the sweat that I didn't really particularly want. 00:26:44.079 --> 00:26:47.920 There's the crack in my voice. Just imagine the 00:26:47.920 --> 00:26:53.079 power of being able to ride all of that, to anticipate 00:26:53.079 --> 00:26:57.240 it even, and go, I'm okay with that. Because 00:26:57.240 --> 00:26:59.319 when you see that speaker in the front of the 00:26:59.319 --> 00:27:04.480 room, riding that Bronco. You are mesmerized. 00:27:04.859 --> 00:27:08.720 You relax. You go, if this person makes a mistake, 00:27:09.000 --> 00:27:11.940 we will not all die here. We're going to be okay. 00:27:12.579 --> 00:27:16.119 This person isn't really, you know that guitar 00:27:16.119 --> 00:27:18.940 player in the open mic who gets up there and 00:27:18.940 --> 00:27:22.240 goes clunk clunk and then says sorry? And everybody 00:27:22.240 --> 00:27:26.180 just goes, oh no. Like you mistook this situation. 00:27:26.440 --> 00:27:29.039 You think this is about showing us how good you 00:27:29.039 --> 00:27:32.349 are. But we wanted to hear your song. You know, 00:27:32.349 --> 00:27:33.849 we wanted to enjoy this together, but you're 00:27:33.849 --> 00:27:36.390 not going to enjoy this because you're just not 00:27:36.390 --> 00:27:39.630 ready yet. You're not there yet. And I've certainly 00:27:39.630 --> 00:27:41.809 done that, right? I've certainly gotten up and 00:27:41.809 --> 00:27:45.970 apologized for myself. But what that tells you 00:27:45.970 --> 00:27:48.990 is you need some work. You need a different attitude 00:27:48.990 --> 00:27:51.369 towards what's happening when you're the front 00:27:51.369 --> 00:27:56.710 of the room. And I think a human out of that 00:27:56.710 --> 00:27:59.519 situation. right? Take yourself out of standing 00:27:59.519 --> 00:28:02.039 in front of the room. Now, let yourself sit across 00:28:02.039 --> 00:28:06.420 the table from someone. If you feel like this 00:28:06.420 --> 00:28:09.940 may not go exactly as I want, but I'm going to 00:28:09.940 --> 00:28:13.200 be okay. I'm not going to lose contact with this 00:28:13.200 --> 00:28:16.920 person. I'm going to keep connecting on the assumption 00:28:16.920 --> 00:28:21.900 that I really don't have to hide my lack of ability 00:28:21.900 --> 00:28:25.660 because my ability is enough, right? So if you 00:28:25.660 --> 00:28:29.150 could leave college, feeling like I went to college 00:28:29.150 --> 00:28:33.269 and learned how to feel better in my bones when 00:28:33.269 --> 00:28:39.470 it's my turn. And I also learn to listen better 00:28:39.470 --> 00:28:42.230 when it's not my turn, because that's my turn 00:28:42.230 --> 00:28:46.049 too, in a way. It's my turn to listen. And maybe 00:28:46.049 --> 00:28:50.049 I start to prize my ability to listen to three 00:28:50.049 --> 00:28:53.750 people speak and then say something that sums 00:28:53.750 --> 00:28:56.640 up the situation we're in. in a way that's helpful 00:28:56.640 --> 00:29:00.700 to that group. Pretty useful. Pretty useful professionally, 00:29:00.960 --> 00:29:04.559 but just plain useful. So that's interesting 00:29:04.559 --> 00:29:07.099 what you just said. It makes the monkey mind 00:29:07.099 --> 00:29:10.160 jump around. Knowing what to say and when to 00:29:10.160 --> 00:29:14.619 say it is very important, but also knowing when 00:29:14.619 --> 00:29:19.220 not to speak and when to stay silent is a very 00:29:19.220 --> 00:29:25.859 important thing. And being silent or... The power 00:29:25.859 --> 00:29:27.880 of silence is something that's very important 00:29:27.880 --> 00:29:31.000 from a multitude of perspectives, but specifically 00:29:31.000 --> 00:29:34.680 from an oratory perspective. I love that you've 00:29:34.680 --> 00:29:37.460 caught that part of it. If you think of speaking 00:29:37.460 --> 00:29:41.299 as the loud end of a spectrum, then silence is 00:29:41.299 --> 00:29:44.420 the other end of that spectrum. It's the absolute 00:29:44.420 --> 00:29:48.299 opposite, the silence. And your capacity along 00:29:48.299 --> 00:29:53.660 that entire range is your superpower. Being loud 00:29:53.660 --> 00:29:57.160 and not being able to also be quiet is leaving 00:29:57.160 --> 00:30:01.420 you without some really important tools. So what's 00:30:01.420 --> 00:30:03.220 happening at the front of the room, if you manage 00:30:03.220 --> 00:30:09.039 to calm the autonomic system, is that you are 00:30:09.039 --> 00:30:12.400 quieting the body. You're quieting the breath. 00:30:13.039 --> 00:30:16.680 And you're reassuring your nervous system that 00:30:16.680 --> 00:30:21.319 silence is actually safe. I don't have to talk. 00:30:21.930 --> 00:30:26.369 to avoid what's going on. A teacher told me the 00:30:26.369 --> 00:30:29.710 other day about a student who reported, if I'm 00:30:29.710 --> 00:30:36.069 not overly busy, I get really anxious. Being 00:30:36.069 --> 00:30:40.289 busy all the time is how I avoid anxiety. And 00:30:40.289 --> 00:30:44.509 what I want to say is fascinating. And if I were 00:30:44.509 --> 00:30:47.970 your life coach, you might want to work on that 00:30:47.970 --> 00:30:51.460 over time and see and sit with. What it feels 00:30:51.460 --> 00:30:53.980 like to not be active. Because silence is a kind 00:30:53.980 --> 00:31:00.119 of inactivity. You're going mute. And what happens 00:31:00.119 --> 00:31:03.920 when you go mute? Where does your attention go? 00:31:05.559 --> 00:31:07.799 Does it go to the monkey mind? Which for most 00:31:07.799 --> 00:31:12.299 of us it does. There's the chatter. Why can I 00:31:12.299 --> 00:31:14.200 not sleep so well at night? Because when I wake 00:31:14.200 --> 00:31:17.079 up, I either have something I want to think about 00:31:17.079 --> 00:31:19.059 or I have something I can't help but think about. 00:31:19.599 --> 00:31:22.700 And it's often many things at once and not particularly 00:31:22.700 --> 00:31:27.680 productive. So gotcha on the monkey mind. And 00:31:27.680 --> 00:31:33.380 I think people flee, right? They're afraid of 00:31:33.380 --> 00:31:36.200 the monkey mind or they don't recognize that 00:31:36.200 --> 00:31:40.099 that's what's taken over. And silence is a way 00:31:40.099 --> 00:31:45.319 of quieting the monkey. And even in negotiations 00:31:45.319 --> 00:31:48.849 or communications, I think. Just staying silent 00:31:48.849 --> 00:31:51.869 sometimes has a lot more power than people realize. 00:31:52.430 --> 00:31:55.789 Even when I'm having an argument with my mom, 00:31:55.849 --> 00:32:01.150 for example, I know I've messed up. We're hashing 00:32:01.150 --> 00:32:05.230 it out and she just goes silent and stares at 00:32:05.230 --> 00:32:10.089 me. And I was like, oh, wow, I can feel my soul 00:32:10.089 --> 00:32:12.730 burning through my eyes. Message received. Message 00:32:12.730 --> 00:32:15.569 received. I got it. Do you think when she does 00:32:15.569 --> 00:32:19.079 that? It's to send that message or is it because 00:32:19.079 --> 00:32:23.559 she's waiting for something to come up for her 00:32:23.559 --> 00:32:29.640 that seems worthy of saying? I think it's more 00:32:29.640 --> 00:32:32.940 of the formal. I think it's just one of those 00:32:32.940 --> 00:32:35.359 things where it's take a minute to figure out 00:32:35.359 --> 00:32:38.160 your stuff there. I'll wait. I'm waiting for 00:32:38.160 --> 00:32:40.559 you. When you get to my level, we talk. You remind 00:32:40.559 --> 00:32:43.839 me of something that. happens a lot with young 00:32:43.839 --> 00:32:46.099 writers in my class, my playwriting class, they 00:32:46.099 --> 00:32:48.259 read a play and the longest thing they're going 00:32:48.259 --> 00:32:50.519 to have to write is a 500 word response where 00:32:50.519 --> 00:32:55.279 I ask them not to analyze the play, but to draw 00:32:55.279 --> 00:32:57.380 a lesson from the play that will help them be 00:32:57.380 --> 00:32:59.539 a better playwright where they are challenged 00:32:59.539 --> 00:33:02.359 to speak at least half about their own play and 00:33:02.359 --> 00:33:04.980 half about the play they read. So they almost 00:33:04.980 --> 00:33:07.359 always just analyze the play. They forget to 00:33:07.359 --> 00:33:09.440 talk about their own play because that's what 00:33:09.440 --> 00:33:12.000 writing has been. And many of them will do it 00:33:12.000 --> 00:33:15.440 in one paragraph. Boom, 500 words, a block of 00:33:15.440 --> 00:33:19.000 text. So you mentioned silence, and to me, a 00:33:19.000 --> 00:33:22.920 paragraph separated by a blank line for the next 00:33:22.920 --> 00:33:27.480 paragraph is a kindness, is a silence. It's a 00:33:27.480 --> 00:33:30.480 declaration that I've completed a unit of thought. 00:33:31.660 --> 00:33:34.539 Let that sit for a moment. Perhaps I've managed 00:33:34.539 --> 00:33:37.559 to make it compelling enough that you're eager 00:33:37.559 --> 00:33:40.549 to read this next paragraph. But it's not the 00:33:40.549 --> 00:33:43.130 assumption, as it is with a big fat one paragraph 00:33:43.130 --> 00:33:45.769 essay, that you're going to keep going regardless 00:33:45.769 --> 00:33:50.430 of whether or not I make it interesting. So then 00:33:50.430 --> 00:33:53.210 there's also within the rhythm of the paragraph, 00:33:53.329 --> 00:33:57.750 the stops, the commas, the shaping of the thought 00:33:57.750 --> 00:34:00.569 that's helping someone, in a sense, hear your 00:34:00.569 --> 00:34:05.460 voice as they read you. I asked ChatGPT. I gave 00:34:05.460 --> 00:34:07.019 it a compliment and he said, well, thank you. 00:34:07.099 --> 00:34:09.079 And I said, no, no, no, seriously, like, how 00:34:09.079 --> 00:34:11.820 do you do that? And it started breaking down 00:34:11.820 --> 00:34:16.440 what it had just done. Because I was impressed 00:34:16.440 --> 00:34:19.460 by not just the clarity of its thought, but by 00:34:19.460 --> 00:34:23.860 its ability to really make a line that had a 00:34:23.860 --> 00:34:27.679 kind of singing element to it that was very attentive 00:34:27.679 --> 00:34:35.139 to rhythm and alliteration. And it said, This 00:34:35.139 --> 00:34:38.500 is what the large language models study, and 00:34:38.500 --> 00:34:45.079 we watch for pauses, meaning it understands the 00:34:45.079 --> 00:34:47.820 rhythm of language and the power of the pause, 00:34:48.019 --> 00:34:51.519 even in written language. And if you were to 00:34:51.519 --> 00:34:53.679 look at its analysis of what it's doing when 00:34:53.679 --> 00:34:55.679 it's trying to write well, when it's trying to 00:34:55.679 --> 00:34:58.800 write, I'll say creatively, but rhetorically, 00:34:58.960 --> 00:35:02.400 what you would see is it's learned every lesson. 00:35:02.989 --> 00:35:05.570 that you kind of already know and maybe some 00:35:05.570 --> 00:35:08.909 of which you follow. But we'd be better writers 00:35:08.909 --> 00:35:13.309 if we just did what chat is trying to do because 00:35:13.309 --> 00:35:16.349 it's figured us out on that level. Yeah, spooky. 00:35:16.630 --> 00:35:18.710 The other thing that comes along with Oratory 00:35:18.710 --> 00:35:22.670 Now is the importance of storytelling. And that's 00:35:22.670 --> 00:35:25.809 something I've always lived by. If somebody asks 00:35:25.809 --> 00:35:30.309 me, what do you want to do? I first and foremost 00:35:30.309 --> 00:35:33.400 tell them I'm a storyteller. My medium may change. 00:35:33.440 --> 00:35:35.780 It may be art. It may be poetry. It may be a 00:35:35.780 --> 00:35:38.840 podcast. It may be very different things. But 00:35:38.840 --> 00:35:44.880 one of my core principles in life is I'm a storyteller. 00:35:45.380 --> 00:35:48.980 And there is an evolutionary need for stories, 00:35:49.000 --> 00:35:50.920 I believe, in humans, something we studied in 00:35:50.920 --> 00:35:53.840 psychology, is that we're extremely fascinated 00:35:53.840 --> 00:35:58.900 by it. So what do you think the practical applications 00:35:58.900 --> 00:36:02.400 of that? And along with being an effective communicator, 00:36:02.480 --> 00:36:06.019 being an effective storyteller is in today's 00:36:06.019 --> 00:36:08.699 day and age, especially when, you know, the world 00:36:08.699 --> 00:36:11.159 is what it is and everybody could use a little 00:36:11.159 --> 00:36:15.500 story here and there. Storytelling is the high 00:36:15.500 --> 00:36:20.139 octane form of oratory. It's stealth oratory 00:36:20.139 --> 00:36:25.579 because what it's doing is creating change without 00:36:25.579 --> 00:36:30.739 apparently being intended to create change. The 00:36:30.739 --> 00:36:34.320 parable is maybe a more obvious example of it 00:36:34.320 --> 00:36:37.719 teaches you something. It gives you, it helps 00:36:37.719 --> 00:36:39.800 you deliberate maybe. It helps you understand 00:36:39.800 --> 00:36:42.780 something differently, but it uses story to get 00:36:42.780 --> 00:36:46.039 you there. And I think that you talked about 00:36:46.039 --> 00:36:49.260 the evolutionary part of story, and I'm a big 00:36:49.260 --> 00:36:53.800 proponent of that. I agree that we sat around 00:36:53.800 --> 00:36:58.260 the fire at night and we needed to know what 00:36:58.260 --> 00:37:01.519 was safe and what was not safe. And we needed 00:37:01.519 --> 00:37:05.679 each other's company. But the narrative that 00:37:05.679 --> 00:37:09.119 we built around the day let us sleep or not. 00:37:09.360 --> 00:37:14.320 And if the story is not yet assembled, we don't 00:37:14.320 --> 00:37:17.880 sleep well. And our dreams will do it for us. 00:37:18.039 --> 00:37:21.300 So the undigested experience of the day becomes 00:37:21.300 --> 00:37:25.099 the food for the dream at night. And maybe the 00:37:25.099 --> 00:37:28.159 nightmare. And then you get up the next day and 00:37:28.159 --> 00:37:32.139 you go live another unexamined day in the life 00:37:32.139 --> 00:37:36.019 and then come back and share notes. It's like, 00:37:36.019 --> 00:37:39.659 what the hell was that? And what does it mean? 00:37:39.760 --> 00:37:43.699 And how do I fit in? Because we need the narrative 00:37:43.699 --> 00:37:48.159 container to hold ourselves. Otherwise, it just 00:37:48.159 --> 00:37:54.179 seems too unsafe out there. We probably feel 00:37:54.179 --> 00:37:57.119 less anxiety on some level today because there 00:37:57.119 --> 00:38:02.039 aren't tigers, except there are, right? The tigers 00:38:02.039 --> 00:38:07.800 of our monkey minds, you know, stalking us all 00:38:07.800 --> 00:38:12.380 day long, not leaving us alone. But, you know, 00:38:12.380 --> 00:38:14.239 there's people living through some real insecurity 00:38:14.239 --> 00:38:18.099 right now, more than normal. Oh, yeah. And that 00:38:18.099 --> 00:38:21.679 is the norm. That is the new norm. So what we're 00:38:21.679 --> 00:38:24.199 doing with a story that makes it the highest 00:38:24.199 --> 00:38:29.739 form of oratory in a way is we are creating an 00:38:29.739 --> 00:38:33.059 experience for the listener. We're not just informing 00:38:33.059 --> 00:38:36.840 them. We are grabbing their attention. We're 00:38:36.840 --> 00:38:40.539 taking them through a series of events that include, 00:38:40.800 --> 00:38:44.019 that incorporate their curiosity and their life 00:38:44.019 --> 00:38:47.059 experience. At the best, and the Greeks had a 00:38:47.059 --> 00:38:50.840 name for this, Anargeia. At the best, it's putting 00:38:50.840 --> 00:38:55.460 us there. You are there is the idea. The well 00:38:55.460 --> 00:38:58.699 -told story ends up and I walk up and I open 00:38:58.699 --> 00:39:00.980 the door. I've gone into present tense now and 00:39:00.980 --> 00:39:04.579 I look and there, right? And we've slowed time 00:39:04.579 --> 00:39:07.480 and we've created the visual image and we've 00:39:07.480 --> 00:39:12.340 got motion and we have everything zeroing in 00:39:12.340 --> 00:39:15.679 on focusing their attention on this moment that 00:39:15.679 --> 00:39:19.489 we're about to reveal to them. The structure 00:39:19.489 --> 00:39:24.730 of the story is how we structure their attention. 00:39:25.610 --> 00:39:29.889 So people are catching on to the attention economy. 00:39:30.929 --> 00:39:34.610 They're more aware now that that's what social 00:39:34.610 --> 00:39:40.250 media is playing to, is the currency of social 00:39:40.250 --> 00:39:44.809 media is your attention. The click, the scroll. 00:39:47.980 --> 00:39:49.780 That's, you know, that's one of the things that 00:39:49.780 --> 00:39:51.800 makes it hard to sleep at night, too, because 00:39:51.800 --> 00:39:53.539 they don't, it doesn't put your day together. 00:39:53.659 --> 00:39:58.079 It kind of, kind of introduces a whole, what's 00:39:58.079 --> 00:40:00.360 a group of monkeys called? Do you know this one? 00:40:01.099 --> 00:40:03.739 Oh, there's your homework. Yeah. Right. A something 00:40:03.739 --> 00:40:07.559 of monkeys, right? And they're unleashed in your 00:40:07.559 --> 00:40:09.860 brain. I have a feeling we're about to find out. 00:40:09.920 --> 00:40:13.219 I wonder if it's a school. I like to think they're 00:40:13.219 --> 00:40:15.659 at school. It's a troop. A troop of monkeys. 00:40:15.679 --> 00:40:20.389 A troop of monkeys. Oh, I'm disappointed. There's 00:40:20.389 --> 00:40:23.369 a challenge. What's a better name? And what are 00:40:23.369 --> 00:40:26.570 those names called, by the way? There's a title 00:40:26.570 --> 00:40:29.869 for that title. There's a barrel. A barrel of 00:40:29.869 --> 00:40:33.090 monkeys. Exactly. There's a barrel of monkeys 00:40:33.090 --> 00:40:35.329 in your brain. That's much better than the truth. 00:40:35.570 --> 00:40:37.650 That could be the spinoff for this. It's just 00:40:37.650 --> 00:40:39.949 like we've gone from monkey mind to a barrel 00:40:39.949 --> 00:40:42.269 of monkeys. Well, that's when you do a greatest 00:40:42.269 --> 00:40:47.199 hits. It's the barrel of monkeys. We bring back 00:40:47.199 --> 00:40:49.139 everybody who's been on the monkey mind. I have 00:40:49.139 --> 00:40:51.920 like one big battle monkey for you. I love that 00:40:51.920 --> 00:40:55.800 you call it a lab. I like your graphic. Congratulations. 00:40:57.820 --> 00:41:00.659 And I'm excited to see what you find out when 00:41:00.659 --> 00:41:03.500 you go around asking people questions. Thank 00:41:03.500 --> 00:41:06.760 you. I'm excited too. Yeah. We usually end the 00:41:06.760 --> 00:41:09.380 episode on a big note. So if you'd like to make 00:41:09.380 --> 00:41:12.059 a claim or like some sort of advice for people 00:41:12.059 --> 00:41:15.340 on like. Go -to life, improvising life or something. 00:41:15.420 --> 00:41:18.940 I don't know. Or something on poetry. I don't 00:41:18.940 --> 00:41:20.400 know if this is big, but here's what's been on 00:41:20.400 --> 00:41:24.820 my mind recently. There's this hack that is so 00:41:24.820 --> 00:41:28.440 easy and so powerful, which is that we spend 00:41:28.440 --> 00:41:30.420 much of our life, and your title sort of alludes 00:41:30.420 --> 00:41:32.980 to this, feeling a division between mind and 00:41:32.980 --> 00:41:37.380 body and a competition. And I have a feeling 00:41:37.380 --> 00:41:39.280 that a college student maybe thinks of themselves 00:41:39.280 --> 00:41:44.340 as a mind goes to college. and gets its training, 00:41:44.420 --> 00:41:47.239 but the body is just sort of, you know, the passenger 00:41:47.239 --> 00:41:52.219 or the vehicle to carry him around. But what 00:41:52.219 --> 00:41:54.480 I've learned through this practice called Yoga 00:41:54.480 --> 00:41:59.639 Nidra that just blows my mind is the moment the 00:41:59.639 --> 00:42:03.519 mind thinks about the body, the two come into 00:42:03.519 --> 00:42:08.019 sync and both of them are calmed and quieted 00:42:08.019 --> 00:42:10.780 and strengthened. And you give yourself resilience 00:42:10.780 --> 00:42:14.519 just by allowing yourself to focus on what am 00:42:14.519 --> 00:42:16.820 I actually feeling? And you might tell yourself, 00:42:16.960 --> 00:42:20.619 what am I feeling on the bottoms of my feet right 00:42:20.619 --> 00:42:23.139 now? And then what you notice is instead of, 00:42:23.159 --> 00:42:27.559 and what you notice is changing you because the 00:42:27.559 --> 00:42:29.679 sensation on the bottom of your feet was there, 00:42:29.800 --> 00:42:32.980 but you weren't noticing it. So the act of noticing 00:42:32.980 --> 00:42:38.619 something to do with your body is a simple practice 00:42:38.619 --> 00:42:42.929 that to me, signals so much more because what 00:42:42.929 --> 00:42:46.610 we in order to function we often have to stop 00:42:46.610 --> 00:42:48.769 feeling what we're feeling ignore what we're 00:42:48.769 --> 00:42:52.030 feeling get past what we're feeling grin and 00:42:52.030 --> 00:42:54.829 bear it and that may feel like a lot of what 00:42:54.829 --> 00:42:58.369 college is supposed to be just I got all this 00:42:58.369 --> 00:43:00.150 energy I got all this strength I got all this 00:43:00.150 --> 00:43:03.969 stamina I'm going to use it all and the people 00:43:03.969 --> 00:43:07.050 who are trying to encourage you to do mindfulness 00:43:07.920 --> 00:43:10.239 Not my favorite term. I like mind -body better. 00:43:11.539 --> 00:43:16.059 But they've got your best interests in mind and 00:43:16.059 --> 00:43:22.739 body. And if you're becoming desperate, if you're 00:43:22.739 --> 00:43:27.239 losing faith that you can be quiet, you are a 00:43:27.239 --> 00:43:29.579 candidate for trying it and getting enormous 00:43:29.579 --> 00:43:33.440 benefits from all kinds of failure at it. Meaning 00:43:33.440 --> 00:43:38.260 any effort to do it. can have an enormous impact 00:43:38.260 --> 00:43:41.159 right away, right? Because you're the test case. 00:43:41.800 --> 00:43:44.699 If you're already pretty cool, if you're already 00:43:44.699 --> 00:43:49.000 pretty calm, if you already can bring your heart 00:43:49.000 --> 00:43:51.400 rate down, well, you could work on it and get 00:43:51.400 --> 00:43:54.360 better. But the person who can make the biggest 00:43:54.360 --> 00:43:56.539 strides is the person for whom it is the most 00:43:56.539 --> 00:43:59.199 difficult. So if you give it a try and it doesn't 00:43:59.199 --> 00:44:02.340 work, that's a sign there's so much in there 00:44:02.340 --> 00:44:05.980 for you. And if I were a student again, And in 00:44:05.980 --> 00:44:09.179 fact, I intend to be as soon as I graduate in 00:44:09.179 --> 00:44:13.639 May. That is what I would be trying to do is 00:44:13.639 --> 00:44:16.599 not just trying to learn, but trying to figure 00:44:16.599 --> 00:44:19.860 out how I learn and what I can do to help myself 00:44:19.860 --> 00:44:25.940 learn. That's beautiful. Thank you, Dana. And 00:44:25.940 --> 00:44:28.059 that brings us to the end of our episode. Thank 00:44:28.059 --> 00:44:30.300 you so much for monkeying around with us. Stay 00:44:30.300 --> 00:44:32.260 tuned for the next episode of the Monkey Mind 00:44:32.260 --> 00:44:32.519 Lab.