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Welcome back to the Monkey Mind Lab. On today's

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episode, we have with us Professor Jennifer Ortegren,

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Associate Professor of Religion at Middlebury

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College. A scholar of South Asian religions,

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Professor Autogrin's work delves into the intersection

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of gender, class, and religious identity in contemporary

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India. After earning her PhD in West and South

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Asian religions from Emory University, She joined

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Middlebury's religion department in 2016. Her

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research employs ethnographic methods to explore

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how upwardly mobile Hindu and Muslim women in

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Udaipur, Rajasthan, navigate class and religious

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identities. Her book, Middle Class Dharma, Women,

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Aspiration, and the Making of Contemporary Hinduism,

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examines how Hindu women interpret dharma, the

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moral foundation of Hindu traditions. in the

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context of middle -class aspirations. Professor

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Ortegren's current project, titled We Live With

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Love For Each Other, Navigating Neighborhood

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Relationships Between Hindu and Muslim Women

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in Middle -Class India, investigates how Muslim

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women experience upward mobility and how these

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shifts influence relationships with Hindu neighbors.

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In the classroom, she teaches courses on Hindu

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traditions, Islam in South Asia, women in religion,

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and ethnographic approaches to religious studies.

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Her commitment to understanding religion through

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lived experiences offers students a nuanced perspective

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on the complexities of religion, identity, and

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society. Please join me in welcoming Professor

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Ortegren. Thank you. I'm happy to be here. I

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am super excited for this episode. I think I've

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been looking forward to this since we planned

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it. Let's begin with the three questions. Okay.

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I mean, we kind of answered it in your very illustrious

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introduction, but what do you study? Why do you

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study it? And how did you get into it? So my

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primary interests are, as you said, in the intersections

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of gender and religion. Also with class, my first

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interest has always been about women in religion.

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When I was an undergraduate in my kind of first

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year seminar that I took at my institution, I

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was working with a professor of religion who...

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had studied feminist, Christian feminist theology.

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And I was so interested in the topic and it took

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me a long time to finally declare my religion

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major. But I was always interested in the question

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of what about women? And especially insofar as

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I had been raised in a mainline Protestant Christian

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church that I really enjoyed. My experience of

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religion was very much about community and belonging,

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participating in that community. My experience

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with church wasn't having... dogmatic theology

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kind of shoved down my throat. It was about these

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are people who we care for, right? It was a neighborhood

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church. These people that we went to church with

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were people that we went on float trips with,

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right? These are the people that cared about

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us, that we cared about them. So I had a very

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positive experience with religion growing up.

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But I'd also encountered narratives about assumptions

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that religion was bad, especially for women,

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especially if you don't see women as traditional

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authority figures in many religious traditions,

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especially historically. I had this encounter

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that as an undergraduate with very different

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perspectives on that and feminist reinterpretations

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of Christian text and of everyday practices and

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got really interested in the question of what

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about women. And so even in the ways in which

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as my career came together, it took different

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turns than what I expected. I had not always

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been interested in Hindu traditions. I was always

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interested in the question about what about women?

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What do women say about this? How is it that

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religious traditions might be actually quite

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empowering for women? especially in the ways

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that they might navigate around other kind of

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traditional, historical, authoritative structures.

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And certainly there's been a lot of work on that

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in numerous traditions, but that was always the

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question that was interesting for me. And then

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when I began to study Hindu traditions, I think

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I became especially interested in the fact that

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because Hindu traditions don't have one single

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text, right? There isn't an inclination or even

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really kind of a possibility in certain ways

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to do the kind of text proofing that you might

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do in, say, Christian traditions to say, well,

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where is it in the Bible? That's not an impulse

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that Hindus have. And what that means is that

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women's storytelling. has a real capacity for

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authority, right? Even if it's not in textual

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written forms, oral traditions have their own

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authority that are recognized and respected within

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communities. And there are a lot of ways in which

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women's religious stories and narratives in Hindu

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traditions. This is not, it's not. Only in Hinduism.

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It's not unique to Hinduism, but I think it's

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especially powerful in Hindu traditions that

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women's religious narratives can have this real

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power, especially in local communities, and was

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introduced to women's religion as a site for

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women's sanctioned subversive speech. So that

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was always what interested me, is those kinds

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of possibilities for women's voices and authority

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and power in religion through Hindu traditions.

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And then when I was preparing for graduate work,

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I had spent some time working at an NGO in India.

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And I was out in the village with this NGO and

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I was with an American Indian Hindu woman and

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we were waiting with the woman in the village

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for all the other women to show up. And I said,

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will you ask her what stories they tell about

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Sita? At the time, my Hindi was not good enough

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to do this on my own. And so she asked her and

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then the woman responded kind of briefly and

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then spoke kind of at length. And then this woman

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turned back to me and she said. She said they

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don't sing about Sita. Only rich women in the

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city sing about Sita. And then the woman had

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proceeded to tell her a story that was very much

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the story of Sita, but as a local Rajasthani

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princess. And so then I got interested in this

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question of like, but if this woman moved to

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the city, much like women who had worked for

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the NGO do, would she start singing about Sita?

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Would that narrative practice change if she moved

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into the city? And this raised for me the question

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of. How does migrating and becoming middle class,

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how does that reshape women's understandings

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of themselves as Hindus? And so that's what inspired

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my first book project, where I looked at the

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intersections of women and religion in one particular

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emerging middle class neighborhood in Udaipur.

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So I'm still, all of these years later, interested

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in the question about what about women? And if

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we pay attention to women, what do we learn that

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might be new about a religious tradition? What

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do we learn that's new about... Women, and especially

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when we pay attention to women's everyday stories

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that aren't mediated by textual traditions, what

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do we learn about all of those? Wow, that's really

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fascinating. Yeah, I think as an Indian, that's

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not something one gives much thought to, though

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extremely interesting. Yeah, and it might be

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because it's so ingrained, right? It doesn't

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get marked out as separate, right? You grow up

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hearing these stories and they're part of your

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everyday life, so you don't think of them as

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being distinct. And for me, I think, again, it

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was part of having come from a particular kind

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of Christian background that this other kind

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of authoritative narrative storytelling seemed

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different. It's recognized as different, right?

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The actual storytelling happens in all traditions.

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The ways in which it may be recognized within

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the tradition could be quite different. Okay,

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let's head on to the big question for today.

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Can you still be a feminist and fast for your

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husband's long life? Right. Well, I will tell

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our listening audience what you already know,

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which is that I agreed to this question with

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the caveat that the first thing that I would

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do is reject the terms of the question. I will

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say that in my own work, for example, I'm very

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wary of the use of the term feminism. I don't

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use it in my own book, for example, because the

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women with whom I work don't use the word feminism.

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They don't use that as a frame for their own

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kind of thinking. So I don't. And I think the

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answer, of course, will depend in part on your

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definition of feminism. If what you're asking

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about is specifically, say, for example, the

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practice of Karvachot, which is one practice

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that I have written about in my own book, which

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is an annual fast that women undertake for the

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long lives of their husband. That's what they

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say. So I've written a book chapter about this

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and I write about in the chapter. The opening

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scene is on Karva Chauth asking my host mother and

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my host sister -in -law, you know, about Karva Chauth

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and what do you celebrate it? And they said,

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for the long lives of her husband. If you ask

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any of the women in the neighborhood where I

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worked. That is the first answer that you would

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get. So that was the answer I expected. Then

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there was another woman who lived across the

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street, across the gully. And I asked her, are

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you going to go to the celebration tonight? Women

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fast all day and then they have a ritual. practice

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at night that is just women and they don't fast

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until they see the risen full moon. I mean, they

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don't break the fast until they've seen the risen

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full moon. So they're all together. And I asked

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this woman, are you going to go? And she said,

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yes. And I said, well, why do you celebrate?

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Why do you observe? And she responded as expected

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to sell it for the long life of my husband. But

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what was interesting to me was that that woman

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didn't live with her husband and had not lived

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with her husband. He did not live in the neighborhood,

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right? She did not live with her husband. And

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so I got a little bit confused. And so I had

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known that she had been married to her husband

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and at some point they had two children together.

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And then he wanted to basically take a second

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wife. She didn't want that. I don't think that

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they were officially legally divorced. Her family

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said, OK, come back with us. And she said, no,

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I want to raise my kids on my own. So she moved

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into this neighborhood and she lived there and

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she had raised her two children. She had sent

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her daughter to college. She was very much a

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part of the neighborhood. Now, I knew her husband

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was because their son was getting ready to get

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married. So her husband had started coming to

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the neighborhood. And I'll say husband because

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that's what she said. He had started coming every

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once in a while so they could talk about wedding

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stuff. But I didn't like that this woman, she

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and I were very good friends and we were both

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very sassy with each other and we would sit on

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our front steps. The gully is six or eight feet

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wide. I mean, we're not sitting much further

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than you and I are right now. And we would sit

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there and we would just kind of tease each other.

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But on days that he would come, he would sit

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on that step and she would sit behind him inside

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the door. And I couldn't see her and I couldn't

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talk to her. And so I kind of said this to her.

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Why do you celebrate? Your husband's not there.

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And I said, like, you know, by the way, I don't

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really like when your husband comes because I

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can't. And she said, yeah, he's badmash. And

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it's not great. And I said, but then why do you

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really do this? And she said, all the women on

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the gully from the gully go there. And also,

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I'll have to take my new daughter in law. Right.

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So at this point, they'd gotten married. And

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so the daughter in law was there. And so that

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was the first signal to me. And I was not the

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first scholar to write about this. Kind of a

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joke when women say it's about the long lives

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of your husband. It's only narratively. It's

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only ostensibly about the long lives of your

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husband. I think, and I argue in my book, that

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it's about a bunch of other things, and almost

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all of those things are about women. So it is,

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and I've drawn on other scholars to, I'm not

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the first person to argue this at all, but that

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it's really a celebration of women's auspiciousness

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related to their marriage, their suhag that they

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have that men themselves do not. And my experience

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was that then every one, I went to the rooftop

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that night. And all the women came kind of one

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by one when they had finished their work and

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they had gotten prepared and they would show

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up and they would do their puja, their worship

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to the altar that the host had created. And they

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would sit down and they would talk and they would

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chat and they would tease each other. And then

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the next woman would come and they would tease

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her and then they would continue the entire thing.

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And then they all kind of had to sit around and

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wait. And it became, it was clear to me that

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this was a really nice social time for them.

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Again, this was a sanctioned time that they didn't

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have to be at home cooking or taking care of

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their kids. There was a difference in the dynamic.

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You have the sanctioned reason to leave your

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kids home with your husband so that you can go

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fast for his long life. I'm doing this for you,

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so I'm going to be gone for the next two hours

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on this rooftop hanging out with my friends.

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So what I argue also in my book, what was interesting

00:12:00.539 --> 00:12:03.710
to me is that Traditionally, so women perform

00:12:03.710 --> 00:12:06.929
these rituals. They make their offering to the

00:12:06.929 --> 00:12:08.850
moon, and then they go home, and karva itself

00:12:08.850 --> 00:12:10.950
is a little pot of water. These are integral

00:12:10.950 --> 00:12:13.590
to the ritual practice. And traditionally, your

00:12:13.590 --> 00:12:15.389
husband would pour that water into your hand,

00:12:15.409 --> 00:12:16.950
and you would take your first sip of water for

00:12:16.950 --> 00:12:19.269
the day. That symbolizes the kind of devotional

00:12:19.269 --> 00:12:21.049
relationship between yourself and your husband

00:12:21.049 --> 00:12:23.029
that makes sense in this ritual context. In the

00:12:23.029 --> 00:12:24.669
neighborhood where I worked, the women exchanged

00:12:24.669 --> 00:12:26.830
their karvas with each other. They broke their

00:12:26.830 --> 00:12:28.490
fast with one another, and they did it mostly

00:12:28.490 --> 00:12:30.490
according to life stage. So older women with

00:12:30.490 --> 00:12:31.970
older women, younger women with younger women.

00:12:32.149 --> 00:12:34.509
The two new daughters -in -law exchanged with

00:12:34.509 --> 00:12:36.970
each other. And my argument was that this entire

00:12:36.970 --> 00:12:40.070
gathering and that ritual exchange was solidifying

00:12:40.070 --> 00:12:42.590
their own dharmic or their own moral obligations

00:12:42.590 --> 00:12:45.529
to each other as women in the neighborhood. These

00:12:45.529 --> 00:12:47.990
were overwhelmingly women who were, if they were

00:12:47.990 --> 00:12:49.929
living in a joint family, it was new. The oldest

00:12:49.929 --> 00:12:52.090
women had moved into the neighborhood in a nuclear

00:12:52.090 --> 00:12:54.009
family. They now had some daughters -in -law.

00:12:54.129 --> 00:12:55.509
But in the building up of this neighborhood,

00:12:55.659 --> 00:12:57.580
I think they had, I argue, they had come to understand

00:12:57.580 --> 00:13:00.620
that they needed to serve as joint family members

00:13:00.620 --> 00:13:02.220
to each other, right? They didn't have other

00:13:02.220 --> 00:13:03.799
mothers -in -law and sisters -in -law to help

00:13:03.799 --> 00:13:05.539
with childcare, right? You need someone to make

00:13:05.539 --> 00:13:07.720
food for your child when you're too sick to do

00:13:07.720 --> 00:13:09.480
it. Your neighbor does it for you, right? You

00:13:09.480 --> 00:13:10.860
have questions, you're not sure what to do, your

00:13:10.860 --> 00:13:13.100
neighbor tells you. You're not sure, and it's

00:13:13.100 --> 00:13:14.320
interesting to me that they have these conversations

00:13:14.320 --> 00:13:17.350
about jewelry and clothing. It's not just women.

00:13:17.470 --> 00:13:19.250
It's not just like ladies gossip. They're deciding

00:13:19.250 --> 00:13:21.629
like what's appropriate. You don't know what

00:13:21.629 --> 00:13:24.470
to do or where to go or what to wear. Your neighbors

00:13:24.470 --> 00:13:26.269
tell you. So my argument was that they were creating

00:13:26.269 --> 00:13:28.509
this new kind of community with each other. And

00:13:28.509 --> 00:13:30.490
the ritual both reflected that, that they were

00:13:30.490 --> 00:13:34.090
obligated to each other and produced that, that

00:13:34.090 --> 00:13:36.309
obligation to each other. So when this neighbor

00:13:36.309 --> 00:13:40.950
said, everyone goes there. She was going because

00:13:40.950 --> 00:13:42.570
she was also a neighbor. And she said, I have

00:13:42.570 --> 00:13:44.730
to take my new daughter -in -law. Partly so her

00:13:44.730 --> 00:13:46.870
daughter -in -law should fast for her. this woman's

00:13:46.870 --> 00:13:48.490
son. But also I think she was saying, I need

00:13:48.490 --> 00:13:51.509
to introduce her to and ritually bring her into

00:13:51.509 --> 00:13:54.529
this community to whom she is responsible and

00:13:54.529 --> 00:13:56.509
who will be responsible for her. And I think

00:13:56.509 --> 00:13:58.789
it's that kind of relationship that allowed this

00:13:58.789 --> 00:14:01.169
woman to so successfully raise her kids alone

00:14:01.169 --> 00:14:03.629
without a husband, which is not common among

00:14:03.629 --> 00:14:06.490
the kind of class and caste communities with

00:14:06.490 --> 00:14:08.649
whom I work, this emerging middle class. And

00:14:08.649 --> 00:14:10.049
it's not necessarily something that the other

00:14:10.049 --> 00:14:11.490
women in the neighborhood would advocate for

00:14:11.490 --> 00:14:14.370
there. daughters, but this woman had been a really

00:14:14.370 --> 00:14:17.049
good community member, right? She had taken care

00:14:17.049 --> 00:14:18.690
of her neighbors and they had taken care of her.

00:14:18.769 --> 00:14:20.529
And that's how she got to have this kind of experience.

00:14:20.789 --> 00:14:25.429
So I think nominally, narratively, ostensibly,

00:14:25.470 --> 00:14:27.669
it's about your husband. I think it's really,

00:14:27.750 --> 00:14:30.490
really about women and about the commitments

00:14:30.490 --> 00:14:33.129
that women make to themselves. Now it's also

00:14:33.129 --> 00:14:35.230
about their husbands, but that may be kind of

00:14:35.230 --> 00:14:37.730
secondary. So I think the question, the question

00:14:37.730 --> 00:14:40.169
is one. How do you imagine fasting and what is

00:14:40.169 --> 00:14:42.129
it for? The question is, can you be a feminist

00:14:42.129 --> 00:14:43.889
and do this? The answer is, what does it really

00:14:43.889 --> 00:14:47.830
do? The other thing is that to understand the

00:14:47.830 --> 00:14:51.710
ways in which, on the one hand, in this ritual,

00:14:51.730 --> 00:14:53.970
women are expected to fast for the long lives

00:14:53.970 --> 00:14:56.730
of their husbands. Men, historically, do not

00:14:56.730 --> 00:15:00.779
fast for the long lives of their wives. partly

00:15:00.779 --> 00:15:03.100
because they do not have the ritual capacity

00:15:03.100 --> 00:15:06.080
to extend the lives of their wives. Women share

00:15:06.080 --> 00:15:08.220
shakti, which is this divine power that makes

00:15:08.220 --> 00:15:10.399
up the goddess. The goddess has shakti. The women

00:15:10.399 --> 00:15:13.659
also have shakti. Women have the ritual power

00:15:13.659 --> 00:15:17.100
to extend their husbands' lives that men themselves

00:15:17.100 --> 00:15:19.320
do not. I always say in my classroom that this

00:15:19.320 --> 00:15:22.830
is the opposite of the Spider Man tagline. With

00:15:22.830 --> 00:15:25.889
great responsibility, right, comes great power,

00:15:26.029 --> 00:15:30.009
right? These women have responsibilities to extend

00:15:30.009 --> 00:15:31.190
the lives of their husband, but with that comes

00:15:31.190 --> 00:15:33.889
great power. So it's something here about what

00:15:33.889 --> 00:15:36.690
they have to do, but also what they are capable

00:15:36.690 --> 00:15:39.149
of doing that men are not. So there's a way in

00:15:39.149 --> 00:15:40.950
which it really reflects the power, the unique

00:15:40.950 --> 00:15:44.090
power of women. Although I will also say that

00:15:44.090 --> 00:15:48.250
I asked a woman in Pulan is the name of the neighborhood

00:15:48.250 --> 00:15:50.870
where I did work. I did ask her one time. I asked

00:15:50.870 --> 00:15:52.879
one woman, I said, What happens if you don't

00:15:52.879 --> 00:15:56.039
fast? Because all of these fast practices are

00:15:56.039 --> 00:15:58.480
accompanied by a story. These fasting practices

00:15:58.480 --> 00:16:00.379
are called vratas, and you have these vratkathas,

00:16:00.379 --> 00:16:02.159
and they tell women not only what are you supposed

00:16:02.159 --> 00:16:04.120
to do in the fast. You read these during the

00:16:04.120 --> 00:16:06.500
fasting practices, the ritual practices. The

00:16:06.500 --> 00:16:09.059
vratkatha tells you what are you supposed to

00:16:09.059 --> 00:16:11.500
do, and it tells you what you get from performing

00:16:11.500 --> 00:16:13.740
the fast and the ritual, either by telling you

00:16:13.740 --> 00:16:15.720
exactly what you'll get or telling you what happens

00:16:15.720 --> 00:16:18.059
if you don't. So, for example, often with the

00:16:18.059 --> 00:16:21.460
Karvachot, the story is about a woman who breaks

00:16:21.460 --> 00:16:23.799
the fast improperly before the moon has risen.

00:16:23.960 --> 00:16:25.840
A lot of different versions of the story in some

00:16:25.840 --> 00:16:28.799
cases. In some cases, she's back home actually

00:16:28.799 --> 00:16:31.860
with her natal family and her brothers either

00:16:31.860 --> 00:16:34.620
can't stand to see her suffer, their little sister

00:16:34.620 --> 00:16:36.679
suffer when she's trying to fast, or they're

00:16:36.679 --> 00:16:39.440
trying to trick her. I like the trick her one

00:16:39.440 --> 00:16:41.019
because there's a version where they go outside

00:16:41.019 --> 00:16:42.460
to the edge of the village and they light a fire

00:16:42.460 --> 00:16:44.159
and she thinks it's the moon. Then she goes to

00:16:44.159 --> 00:16:46.919
her sister -in -law, her brother's wives, and

00:16:46.919 --> 00:16:48.419
says, oh, the moon has risen. And all the brother's

00:16:48.419 --> 00:16:50.039
wives go, your brothers are just playing a trick

00:16:50.039 --> 00:16:52.200
on you. No, your brothers, they're trying to

00:16:52.200 --> 00:16:54.019
make you do this. They all know. They are wise

00:16:54.019 --> 00:16:55.659
to it. But she doesn't believe them and she breaks

00:16:55.659 --> 00:16:58.360
the fast. depending on the version of the story,

00:16:58.440 --> 00:17:00.539
her husband either falls dead or he falls very,

00:17:00.639 --> 00:17:02.860
very ill. Sometimes the protagonist is a princess

00:17:02.860 --> 00:17:07.160
or a queen. Anyway, but invariably, she will

00:17:07.160 --> 00:17:09.359
come across some deity. Sometimes it's Chautma

00:17:09.359 --> 00:17:11.619
or it might be some other deity. And that deity

00:17:11.619 --> 00:17:13.279
says, listen, you're good for next year. And

00:17:13.279 --> 00:17:15.660
then next year you perform this perfectly. Then

00:17:15.660 --> 00:17:17.220
your husband will be brought back from death

00:17:17.220 --> 00:17:20.220
or from illness and all of the riches will be

00:17:20.220 --> 00:17:22.099
restored, et cetera. And she does, right? So

00:17:22.099 --> 00:17:24.960
in that, you learn. by what the consequences

00:17:24.960 --> 00:17:27.180
of not performing the frat are, not what are

00:17:27.180 --> 00:17:29.759
the boons of doing it properly. But I asked a

00:17:29.759 --> 00:17:31.319
woman one time, I said, so like, what happens

00:17:31.319 --> 00:17:34.680
if you don't do the fast? And she said, oh, nothing

00:17:34.680 --> 00:17:37.380
bad happens if you don't do it. But really good

00:17:37.380 --> 00:17:40.039
things happen if you do. So like, why wouldn't

00:17:40.039 --> 00:17:42.259
you, right? Like, we don't really think that

00:17:42.259 --> 00:17:43.640
our husbands are going to drop dead if we don't

00:17:43.640 --> 00:17:45.380
do it. But we do think that there is a lot of

00:17:45.380 --> 00:17:46.940
auspiciousness, right? There are a lot of good

00:17:46.940 --> 00:17:48.339
things that come from that. I think that good

00:17:48.339 --> 00:17:50.420
is not just about... the relationship between

00:17:50.420 --> 00:17:52.200
husbands and wives. It's very much about relationships

00:17:52.200 --> 00:17:54.660
with women. So I think the question is, is it

00:17:54.660 --> 00:17:57.119
feminist? Can you be feminist until fast? Part

00:17:57.119 --> 00:17:58.559
of it's about how do you understand the fasting?

00:17:59.019 --> 00:18:00.579
Do you recognize the unique power of women to

00:18:00.579 --> 00:18:02.599
do it, even if it's a unique obligation? Do you

00:18:02.599 --> 00:18:05.420
imagine fasting as only between husbands and

00:18:05.420 --> 00:18:07.440
wives? My sense is that increasingly, especially

00:18:07.440 --> 00:18:09.960
in popular culture, it's framed that way. I've

00:18:09.960 --> 00:18:12.660
seen a lot of pictures of Bollywood actresses,

00:18:12.660 --> 00:18:13.900
especially those that are married to Bollywood

00:18:13.900 --> 00:18:16.119
actors, right? They look through sieves. I think

00:18:16.119 --> 00:18:18.440
that more elite women do this and then you turn

00:18:18.440 --> 00:18:19.819
to your husband. So there are ways in which I

00:18:19.819 --> 00:18:21.779
think it's becoming more framed that way. So,

00:18:21.819 --> 00:18:23.140
for example, even though I wrote this entire

00:18:23.140 --> 00:18:25.039
chapter in my book about this, my host mother

00:18:25.039 --> 00:18:26.559
and my host sister -in -law apparently now do

00:18:26.559 --> 00:18:28.769
it at home with their husbands because. As they

00:18:28.769 --> 00:18:31.730
told me, that's how they do it on TV. My mom

00:18:31.730 --> 00:18:33.490
does that too. It's look at the moon through

00:18:33.490 --> 00:18:35.390
the thief and then look at your husband after

00:18:35.390 --> 00:18:37.509
that. But the TV switched it, right? So now they've

00:18:37.509 --> 00:18:38.869
started, so the women in the neighborhood where

00:18:38.869 --> 00:18:40.329
I work have started switching because they want

00:18:40.329 --> 00:18:42.269
to do more like what I think elite Indians do.

00:18:42.369 --> 00:18:44.630
So it is changing. It's flexible and fluid. But

00:18:44.630 --> 00:18:48.660
also... Also, men have started to fast also for

00:18:48.660 --> 00:18:51.240
Karva Chauth. Now, it doesn't have the ritual power,

00:18:51.380 --> 00:18:55.359
but it's often framed both in India and in the

00:18:55.359 --> 00:18:58.640
diaspora as a commitment to kind of more egalitarian

00:18:58.640 --> 00:19:00.440
progressive politics, right? So you have more

00:19:00.440 --> 00:19:04.259
and more men fasting with their wives as a declaration

00:19:04.259 --> 00:19:07.269
of their... Commitment to their wife, right?

00:19:07.329 --> 00:19:10.210
Even though it's not traditionally in the, it's

00:19:10.210 --> 00:19:11.250
not understood in the tradition to have the same

00:19:11.250 --> 00:19:12.910
ritual power. So you have these shifting narratives

00:19:12.910 --> 00:19:14.750
about it, but it has this question of like, how

00:19:14.750 --> 00:19:16.890
do you understand fasting? And is it about, is

00:19:16.890 --> 00:19:19.970
it really about husbands? It might not be, right?

00:19:20.269 --> 00:19:22.529
It may be, but it may not be. It might really

00:19:22.529 --> 00:19:24.630
be about women. And I think a lot of these fasting

00:19:24.630 --> 00:19:27.430
practices that bring women together offer this

00:19:27.430 --> 00:19:29.109
sanctioned time to be away from your family,

00:19:29.190 --> 00:19:30.910
to be with your friends. And especially if that

00:19:30.910 --> 00:19:32.750
ritual is reinforcing those relationships with

00:19:32.750 --> 00:19:35.089
women. then yes. It's another question about

00:19:35.089 --> 00:19:37.750
what counts as feminist, right? And so I think

00:19:37.750 --> 00:19:40.490
if you have a certain kind of liberal feminism

00:19:40.490 --> 00:19:45.990
that assumes any kind of commitment to a gendered

00:19:45.990 --> 00:19:48.990
system where men could exercise any kind of power

00:19:48.990 --> 00:19:51.250
or domination over women, that it can't be feminist,

00:19:51.549 --> 00:19:55.890
then no. But I teach work by Sabah Mahmood that

00:19:55.890 --> 00:19:57.650
challenges that liberal assumption. She works

00:19:57.650 --> 00:19:59.470
with Muslim women to say, if that's your definition

00:19:59.470 --> 00:20:03.099
of feminism, then Muslim women. who by definition

00:20:03.099 --> 00:20:05.539
are training themselves to be submissive to the

00:20:05.539 --> 00:20:07.640
will of God, can never be counted as feminist.

00:20:07.839 --> 00:20:09.200
So it really challenges that assumption that

00:20:09.200 --> 00:20:11.740
it's about getting rid of domination. And I think

00:20:11.740 --> 00:20:13.660
I find that very persuasive. I'm interested in

00:20:13.660 --> 00:20:16.279
a much more open kind of capacious definition

00:20:16.279 --> 00:20:18.319
of feminism that is about how women exercise

00:20:18.319 --> 00:20:20.720
and understand agency on their own terms that

00:20:20.720 --> 00:20:22.759
may include other kind of power dynamics. Because

00:20:22.759 --> 00:20:24.440
again, here, you are supposed to fast for your

00:20:24.440 --> 00:20:26.319
husband, but that's because you have a ritual

00:20:26.319 --> 00:20:28.279
power that he does not. That's not always good,

00:20:28.339 --> 00:20:29.720
but it is a challenge to the assumption that

00:20:29.720 --> 00:20:31.480
that domination can only be viewed from the top

00:20:31.480 --> 00:20:33.779
down and not from the bottom up. So I think if

00:20:33.779 --> 00:20:35.180
we challenge both our understanding of what fasting

00:20:35.180 --> 00:20:38.660
means and our definition of feminism, then absolutely.

00:20:38.880 --> 00:20:40.680
But even then I would say, I don't know that

00:20:40.680 --> 00:20:41.920
we have to ask the question in terms of feminism.

00:20:42.019 --> 00:20:44.660
I think we can just ask the question, why do

00:20:44.660 --> 00:20:46.920
women fast? And then if we really listen to them

00:20:46.920 --> 00:20:48.779
and then we really pay attention to what they

00:20:48.779 --> 00:20:51.640
do, we can have a different answer than we might

00:20:51.640 --> 00:20:54.440
assume kind of going into it. So that's a very

00:20:54.440 --> 00:20:56.740
interesting thing you said there. But before

00:20:56.740 --> 00:21:00.480
I go into that, I do think that the definition

00:21:00.480 --> 00:21:04.259
of feminism as one thinks of it today is a very

00:21:04.259 --> 00:21:09.140
Western concept. And I remember from class, and

00:21:09.140 --> 00:21:11.880
correct me if I'm wrong here, most Indian women

00:21:11.880 --> 00:21:15.579
would reject feminism as it is in the Western

00:21:15.579 --> 00:21:17.579
context. There certainly have been many Indian

00:21:17.579 --> 00:21:21.680
feminist scholars who have rejected. Yeah, to

00:21:21.680 --> 00:21:23.559
try to use feminism without caveats, because

00:21:23.559 --> 00:21:25.940
often what is assumed about feminism is a certain

00:21:25.940 --> 00:21:28.819
kind of Euro -American wealthy white women's

00:21:28.819 --> 00:21:30.680
feminism. I mean, that's been rejected even in

00:21:30.680 --> 00:21:32.799
the United States, right? There are other non

00:21:32.799 --> 00:21:34.240
-white thinkers who have rejected it. So yes,

00:21:34.359 --> 00:21:36.579
I think there have been plenty of scholars in

00:21:36.579 --> 00:21:38.940
the South Asian context who have said we can't

00:21:38.940 --> 00:21:41.279
wrestle feminism away from these kind of left,

00:21:41.359 --> 00:21:43.779
these Western liberal notions, these Euro -American

00:21:43.779 --> 00:21:45.579
liberal notions of it. But there are other...

00:21:45.799 --> 00:21:47.119
There are other things that we can draw on within

00:21:47.119 --> 00:21:48.799
the tradition. We don't necessarily need feminism.

00:21:48.960 --> 00:21:50.740
And again, the women with whom I work, feminism

00:21:50.740 --> 00:21:53.579
is not a discourse that circulates in our kind

00:21:53.579 --> 00:21:55.220
of everyday life. So certainly they aren't claiming

00:21:55.220 --> 00:21:57.660
themselves to be feminist. So going back to the

00:21:57.660 --> 00:21:59.839
point that you brought up of looking at it from

00:21:59.839 --> 00:22:03.660
the bottom up, there's so much that one can say,

00:22:03.759 --> 00:22:05.559
again, looking at it from a Western perspective,

00:22:05.559 --> 00:22:09.519
that Hinduism or culture in India, obviously

00:22:09.519 --> 00:22:12.559
not elite city culture, maybe not necessarily

00:22:12.559 --> 00:22:15.700
anymore, but... If you look at the average Indian

00:22:15.700 --> 00:22:19.680
or rural Indian culture, that it's suppressive

00:22:19.680 --> 00:22:21.940
of women and they're meant to stay in the kitchen

00:22:21.940 --> 00:22:25.220
and like if cooking clean is all they do. And

00:22:25.220 --> 00:22:29.420
that's what Indian culture is today. What if

00:22:29.420 --> 00:22:31.380
we turn the narrative on that? I mean, I think

00:22:31.380 --> 00:22:34.099
that's an assumption and that has not overwhelmingly

00:22:34.099 --> 00:22:36.359
been my experience. I mean, I guess also that

00:22:36.359 --> 00:22:38.839
kind of question, like which India, right? I

00:22:38.839 --> 00:22:42.769
mean, so what? It would be hard to speak in kind

00:22:42.769 --> 00:22:44.250
of any generalizations. There's so many ways

00:22:44.250 --> 00:22:46.630
that we could kind of break this down. My experience

00:22:46.630 --> 00:22:49.049
has not been that kind of at all. I think that

00:22:49.049 --> 00:22:51.250
also will depend on the, especially the class

00:22:51.250 --> 00:22:53.329
status at which you work. I think that there,

00:22:53.529 --> 00:22:56.130
so my experience has been that the women with

00:22:56.130 --> 00:22:57.970
whom I work who are in emerging middle -class

00:22:57.970 --> 00:22:59.549
communities, who are just becoming middle -class,

00:22:59.549 --> 00:23:01.230
I'm thinking about the families in Poulon, for

00:23:01.230 --> 00:23:04.130
example. These are women who almost all work

00:23:04.130 --> 00:23:06.529
outside of the home. And have had to because

00:23:06.529 --> 00:23:08.930
they needed the financial support to now live

00:23:08.930 --> 00:23:10.730
in a nuclear family in the city and literally

00:23:10.730 --> 00:23:12.890
build homes. And when you're working outside

00:23:12.890 --> 00:23:14.009
of the home, you're not only present outside

00:23:14.009 --> 00:23:15.890
of the home, but you have economic power. I also

00:23:15.890 --> 00:23:18.450
think that there's this assumption like women

00:23:18.450 --> 00:23:20.849
are stuck in the kitchen. Well, even if that's

00:23:20.849 --> 00:23:22.990
true, I have to tell you. Kitchens are lovely

00:23:22.990 --> 00:23:25.349
places to be a woman in India, right? That's

00:23:25.349 --> 00:23:26.750
actually true in the United States too. After

00:23:26.750 --> 00:23:28.869
Thanksgiving in my own family, all the women

00:23:28.869 --> 00:23:30.349
would get up and go into the kitchen and do dishes.

00:23:30.549 --> 00:23:32.910
And I would go too, not because I felt like I'm

00:23:32.910 --> 00:23:34.529
a woman, I have to be there, but because I didn't

00:23:34.529 --> 00:23:36.269
want to listen to my uncle talk about politics.

00:23:36.369 --> 00:23:39.150
I was much happier, the conversations with women

00:23:39.150 --> 00:23:41.690
in the kitchen, right? So on the one hand, it

00:23:41.690 --> 00:23:43.069
may be that the kitchen is the space of women,

00:23:43.150 --> 00:23:45.640
but it is the space of women. Right? This is

00:23:45.640 --> 00:23:47.720
a space that men do not come into. This has been

00:23:47.720 --> 00:23:50.039
my experience, that men do not just charge into

00:23:50.039 --> 00:23:51.960
a kitchen and try to take over. It is women's

00:23:51.960 --> 00:23:53.980
space. And so the assumption that if it's inside,

00:23:54.079 --> 00:23:56.809
it therefore is suppressive. It might be differently

00:23:56.809 --> 00:23:58.609
separated, but it doesn't mean that women don't

00:23:58.609 --> 00:24:00.750
have power inside that domestic space. I've literally

00:24:00.750 --> 00:24:02.769
seen Indian men come home and hand their – the

00:24:02.769 --> 00:24:05.069
money that they have earned to their wives, right?

00:24:05.130 --> 00:24:06.470
Their job is to leave the home and earn money,

00:24:06.549 --> 00:24:08.670
but their wives' responsibility is to take care

00:24:08.670 --> 00:24:10.809
of the home. So they understand that money to

00:24:10.809 --> 00:24:12.990
be their wives, right? So their wife can take

00:24:12.990 --> 00:24:14.829
care of the home. That's her job. So that's why

00:24:14.829 --> 00:24:16.950
they earn money, right? So I think we also –

00:24:16.950 --> 00:24:19.769
I think there's an assumption along with these

00:24:19.769 --> 00:24:21.549
kinds of – I'll stick to American rhetorics of

00:24:21.549 --> 00:24:24.809
kind of equality that men and women – In order

00:24:24.809 --> 00:24:26.910
to be equal, must be identical. I don't think

00:24:26.910 --> 00:24:28.269
that's a shared assumption, even in the United

00:24:28.269 --> 00:24:31.289
States or anywhere. But I think it becomes especially

00:24:31.289 --> 00:24:33.109
problematic if we're thinking about India. And

00:24:33.109 --> 00:24:35.009
I think there's an assumption, a kind of stereotype

00:24:35.009 --> 00:24:37.730
of the poor Indian woman who's sick at home.

00:24:37.769 --> 00:24:39.980
My experience has also been that. You know, with

00:24:39.980 --> 00:24:41.240
the community where I work, again, these women

00:24:41.240 --> 00:24:42.299
work outside of the home. They have economic

00:24:42.299 --> 00:24:44.900
power. I'm describing to you a neighbor who lived

00:24:44.900 --> 00:24:48.240
on her own, right? I have a colleague who works

00:24:48.240 --> 00:24:50.920
with upper caste women in South India, kind of

00:24:50.920 --> 00:24:53.099
a similar class status, but upper caste. And

00:24:53.099 --> 00:24:55.019
she said to me one time, I was telling some story,

00:24:55.059 --> 00:24:57.539
and she said, you're much sassier with your ladies

00:24:57.539 --> 00:24:59.400
than I am with mine. And I was like, well, I

00:24:59.400 --> 00:25:01.339
have sassy ladies, the women with whom I work.

00:25:01.420 --> 00:25:03.079
And so the fact that they are historically of

00:25:03.079 --> 00:25:04.960
marginalized caste communities and just now into

00:25:04.960 --> 00:25:07.500
emerging middle classes, they have a lot of power.

00:25:07.579 --> 00:25:08.839
They're leaving the home. They have economic

00:25:08.839 --> 00:25:11.400
power. Their husbands come home and don't expect

00:25:11.400 --> 00:25:12.900
them to just wait on them hand to foot. And if

00:25:12.900 --> 00:25:14.599
they do it, it's because they're aligning with

00:25:14.599 --> 00:25:16.259
certain kinds of traditional norms that they

00:25:16.259 --> 00:25:18.240
themselves choose. I don't think that they feel

00:25:18.240 --> 00:25:20.119
pushed into it. They choose it because they see

00:25:20.119 --> 00:25:21.660
the value in maintaining those norms and having

00:25:21.660 --> 00:25:23.380
those kinds of relationships with men and with

00:25:23.380 --> 00:25:24.980
elders and with other people. There may be a

00:25:24.980 --> 00:25:26.339
way in which kind of moving into a different

00:25:26.339 --> 00:25:28.019
middle class, there's an idealized sense that

00:25:28.019 --> 00:25:30.980
if your wife doesn't have to work out of the

00:25:30.980 --> 00:25:32.920
home, it's a sign of your class status and your

00:25:32.920 --> 00:25:35.279
relative wealth. So it may be that trying to

00:25:35.279 --> 00:25:37.000
keep your wife and your daughters in home is

00:25:37.000 --> 00:25:39.140
important as a performance that I think, at least

00:25:39.140 --> 00:25:41.059
in the state where I do work, that historically

00:25:41.059 --> 00:25:44.059
had strong monarchs. You're trying to kind of

00:25:44.059 --> 00:25:47.180
emulate the king. Like you could do what the

00:25:47.180 --> 00:25:49.400
king can do. He can afford to have for his wife

00:25:49.400 --> 00:25:52.539
to stay and not work. So I think there's a kind

00:25:52.539 --> 00:25:53.920
of class test that you move into that where that

00:25:53.920 --> 00:25:55.619
might become an ideal because it's imagined as

00:25:55.619 --> 00:25:58.099
a way of demonstrating your class status. And

00:25:58.099 --> 00:25:59.539
then you become kind of morally and it moves

00:25:59.539 --> 00:26:00.900
back out of that. But I think all of this is

00:26:00.900 --> 00:26:03.140
changing. So, for example, my host sisters who

00:26:03.140 --> 00:26:06.740
also also all work outside of the home now, but

00:26:06.740 --> 00:26:11.720
they all use their college degrees. My host mother

00:26:11.720 --> 00:26:15.140
literally. Never went to school. Never. Like

00:26:15.140 --> 00:26:16.720
she was the oldest of six kids in the village.

00:26:16.940 --> 00:26:18.339
Never went to school. She had to start taking

00:26:18.339 --> 00:26:20.240
care of kids right away. All four of her children,

00:26:20.339 --> 00:26:21.819
including her three daughters, have college degrees.

00:26:22.039 --> 00:26:24.559
Her daughters wanted to work outside of the home

00:26:24.559 --> 00:26:27.079
as a demonstration of their education and their

00:26:27.079 --> 00:26:29.440
class status. Right. Not because they had to.

00:26:29.599 --> 00:26:31.359
They want to work outside the home. So I think

00:26:31.359 --> 00:26:33.240
all of that is changing really rapidly. And also

00:26:33.240 --> 00:26:36.059
my experience is that in rural spaces and villages,

00:26:36.380 --> 00:26:39.750
there's too much work to be done. Yeah. Right.

00:26:39.829 --> 00:26:42.130
Women can't stay inside. There's way too much

00:26:42.130 --> 00:26:45.049
work to do. I mean, people have mapped on women's

00:26:45.049 --> 00:26:47.849
education related to wheat versus rice because

00:26:47.849 --> 00:26:49.869
rice can only be harvested by hand. So women

00:26:49.869 --> 00:26:54.470
in South India and Eastern India that grows primarily

00:26:54.470 --> 00:26:56.430
rice, they are absolutely working outside of

00:26:56.430 --> 00:26:58.490
the home, unlike, say, northwestern parts of

00:26:58.490 --> 00:27:00.890
India where you could use ox to harvest wheat.

00:27:00.970 --> 00:27:03.509
But even then, my experience has been in rural

00:27:03.509 --> 00:27:05.589
spaces in the United States and India and anywhere

00:27:05.589 --> 00:27:07.769
you are in rural space, there is a lot of work

00:27:07.769 --> 00:27:11.240
to be done. Everyone's working. Everyone's working

00:27:11.240 --> 00:27:12.980
outside of the home. So I think it's a certain

00:27:12.980 --> 00:27:15.759
kind of nostalgic imagined space, both inside

00:27:15.759 --> 00:27:17.539
and outside of India, of what rural India looks

00:27:17.539 --> 00:27:24.279
like. Okay. So going back to the initial question,

00:27:25.039 --> 00:27:30.880
would being religious and not spiritual here,

00:27:30.920 --> 00:27:37.900
religious, fit within a modern day lens of feminism?

00:27:38.929 --> 00:27:42.190
Or would that count as being outdated or something

00:27:42.190 --> 00:27:45.750
else? Because the ideal woman, according to certain

00:27:45.750 --> 00:27:48.470
religions, not just Hinduism, other ones as well,

00:27:48.529 --> 00:27:52.589
is seen to be obedient, is supposed to, it's

00:27:52.589 --> 00:27:56.170
like you serve your husband. Well, maybe not

00:27:56.170 --> 00:27:59.529
obedient in today's day and age. But where do

00:27:59.529 --> 00:28:01.730
you think that fits in in the 21st century context?

00:28:02.170 --> 00:28:03.829
Sure. I mean, I'm thinking more of like pativrata,

00:28:04.069 --> 00:28:05.369
which is what, you know, making a fast to your

00:28:05.369 --> 00:28:08.880
husband, this idea of being, so. I don't know.

00:28:08.960 --> 00:28:10.599
I mean, part of it would say it depends on who

00:28:10.599 --> 00:28:14.000
you ask, right? You can offer a universal answer.

00:28:14.220 --> 00:28:15.819
And it would also depend on what the sense of

00:28:15.819 --> 00:28:18.019
being religious. I think what it means to be

00:28:18.019 --> 00:28:20.279
religious for most religious people in the world,

00:28:20.339 --> 00:28:22.420
especially Hindus, is it's just who you are.

00:28:22.480 --> 00:28:24.900
It's not about what you believe, for example.

00:28:24.900 --> 00:28:26.799
It's just who you are, so to distinguish out.

00:28:27.119 --> 00:28:30.140
It's hard to not be religious, right? You are

00:28:30.140 --> 00:28:32.200
a Hindu. You're kind of born into it. So it may

00:28:32.200 --> 00:28:33.920
be that you don't do all of the fast, et cetera.

00:28:35.289 --> 00:28:37.869
My response to that would be, again, drawing

00:28:37.869 --> 00:28:40.049
mostly on what I know from my own kind of fieldwork

00:28:40.049 --> 00:28:43.390
and interest about trying to see where there

00:28:43.390 --> 00:28:45.569
may be power that might be otherwise unrecognized

00:28:45.569 --> 00:28:48.430
in traditional narratives. My sense is that there's

00:28:48.430 --> 00:28:52.210
still an adherence to a pativrata ideal. You

00:28:52.210 --> 00:28:54.410
want to be dedicated to your husband. I don't

00:28:54.410 --> 00:28:56.170
think that women, the women with whom I work,

00:28:56.230 --> 00:28:58.950
for example, do not reject that as an ideal.

00:28:59.990 --> 00:29:04.220
But what that looks like. can be defined in part

00:29:04.220 --> 00:29:06.960
by them, right? It doesn't mean, and certainly

00:29:06.960 --> 00:29:08.720
doesn't mean, we know this when we teach the

00:29:08.720 --> 00:29:11.720
way I teach Valmiki's Ramayana and emphasize

00:29:11.720 --> 00:29:16.380
that, you know, that Rama says to Sita, I'm exiled,

00:29:16.380 --> 00:29:18.279
I have to leave, you stay here. And she says,

00:29:18.500 --> 00:29:21.299
no, you won't stop me from doing my stridharma,

00:29:21.440 --> 00:29:23.859
right? I have to be dedicated to you. So on the

00:29:23.859 --> 00:29:26.480
one hand, she expresses like, I will follow you

00:29:26.480 --> 00:29:28.720
because it is my obligation to be a good wife

00:29:28.720 --> 00:29:30.559
who is so devoted to you that I go into exile.

00:29:31.180 --> 00:29:34.319
She does that. by not just doing what he tells

00:29:34.319 --> 00:29:36.720
her to do, right? So she is absolutely dedicated

00:29:36.720 --> 00:29:39.119
and devoted to her husband, but she doesn't just

00:29:39.119 --> 00:29:41.240
passively do whatever he says, right? She aggressively,

00:29:41.420 --> 00:29:44.240
and in contradiction, asserts her right to do

00:29:44.240 --> 00:29:46.880
her stridharma against his own will, right? So

00:29:46.880 --> 00:29:48.799
I think that there's ways in which the women

00:29:48.799 --> 00:29:50.839
with whom I work, for example, would not reject

00:29:50.839 --> 00:29:53.250
that as an ideal. But it wouldn't mean that they

00:29:53.250 --> 00:29:54.630
just passively do whatever their husband says,

00:29:54.869 --> 00:29:56.829
right? What it might look like for you to be

00:29:56.829 --> 00:29:58.690
a pativrataha is that you and your husband figure

00:29:58.690 --> 00:30:00.390
out a way to own a business together so that

00:30:00.390 --> 00:30:01.730
you can both work outside of the home. You can

00:30:01.730 --> 00:30:03.849
both use your college degrees, right? What does

00:30:03.849 --> 00:30:07.529
it look like to be dedicated to your husband

00:30:07.529 --> 00:30:09.490
is to figure out the ways in which you could

00:30:09.490 --> 00:30:12.690
financially work this so that you can go on vacation,

00:30:12.829 --> 00:30:15.869
right? So I think that the ideal of being dedicated

00:30:15.869 --> 00:30:17.470
to your husband and devoted to your husband,

00:30:17.670 --> 00:30:21.680
yes, women absolutely embrace that. What that

00:30:21.680 --> 00:30:23.099
looks like, they're defining for themselves and

00:30:23.099 --> 00:30:24.859
redefining all the time. Now, you might have

00:30:24.859 --> 00:30:26.799
to contest that with your father and mother -in

00:30:26.799 --> 00:30:28.200
-law or your own husband. It might have to be

00:30:28.200 --> 00:30:30.740
negotiated. But I think, by and large, women

00:30:30.740 --> 00:30:34.279
have that capacity. And so, yeah, I think that,

00:30:34.319 --> 00:30:37.619
yes, devotion to your husband still matters very,

00:30:37.680 --> 00:30:40.339
very much. But it is a very fluid and flexible

00:30:40.339 --> 00:30:42.900
and constantly evolving definition of what does

00:30:42.900 --> 00:30:45.180
that mean and what does that look like. Women

00:30:45.180 --> 00:30:47.019
can determine that amongst themselves about what

00:30:47.019 --> 00:30:48.339
does that look like? What should that be? I think

00:30:48.339 --> 00:30:50.160
women and their husbands are doing that. I think

00:30:50.160 --> 00:30:51.940
families together are deciding what does that

00:30:51.940 --> 00:30:53.920
look like? I think fathers are deciding that

00:30:53.920 --> 00:30:55.839
when they decide how are we going to raise fathers

00:30:55.839 --> 00:30:57.220
and mothers? How are we going to raise our daughters?

00:30:57.339 --> 00:30:59.339
And what kind of family will we want our daughters

00:30:59.339 --> 00:31:01.480
to marry into? And how will we talk to them about

00:31:01.480 --> 00:31:04.480
potential partners that we might choose and partners

00:31:04.480 --> 00:31:06.960
that they might choose? So I think that element

00:31:06.960 --> 00:31:10.839
is not gone. But what it looks like is changing

00:31:10.839 --> 00:31:12.599
all the time. I think in the same way that would

00:31:12.599 --> 00:31:15.200
be true in any culture, right? Most people say

00:31:15.200 --> 00:31:17.799
you want this kind of spousal devotion, but what

00:31:17.799 --> 00:31:19.359
does it look like? I think that there is an assumption

00:31:19.359 --> 00:31:22.319
that the traditional assumption that to be a

00:31:22.319 --> 00:31:24.019
pativratha, this kind of thing means that you were

00:31:24.019 --> 00:31:26.339
just like passively dedicated to your husband.

00:31:26.380 --> 00:31:28.400
But I think that's really a patriarchal narrative.

00:31:28.480 --> 00:31:30.220
I think that's a narrative that men tell more

00:31:30.220 --> 00:31:34.259
than women. But I think it's really exciting.

00:31:34.339 --> 00:31:36.259
And I think it's important to say, to remind

00:31:36.259 --> 00:31:39.200
ourselves that. Being devoted to someone else,

00:31:39.319 --> 00:31:41.579
that's not the problem. It's only being devoted

00:31:41.579 --> 00:31:43.900
to someone else if you have no say in what that

00:31:43.900 --> 00:31:46.039
devotion looks like and that devotion is dictated

00:31:46.039 --> 00:31:47.920
to you in one way. I also don't think that was

00:31:47.920 --> 00:31:50.680
ever true, ever, in Hindu traditions. It was

00:31:50.680 --> 00:31:52.519
never universally true, right? You could find

00:31:52.519 --> 00:31:54.339
examples, and I think there may be a cultural

00:31:54.339 --> 00:31:56.740
assumption, and for some men, maybe a cultural

00:31:56.740 --> 00:31:58.779
desire for it, right? But I don't think it's

00:31:58.779 --> 00:32:00.279
ever been universally true that what that meant

00:32:00.279 --> 00:32:03.759
was that. Or it's not being perpetuated by the

00:32:03.759 --> 00:32:06.279
religion or by rituals. No, I mean, I think that's

00:32:06.279 --> 00:32:09.460
right. I think, well, yeah, it could be. It depends

00:32:09.460 --> 00:32:11.259
on how you want to understand it, right? You

00:32:11.259 --> 00:32:12.940
absolutely could frame the Karva Chauth. And people

00:32:12.940 --> 00:32:15.000
do, by the way. There is resistance to Karva Chauth

00:32:15.000 --> 00:32:17.140
as a practice, right? People write op -eds every

00:32:17.140 --> 00:32:19.339
single year. When it is time for Karva Chauth, you

00:32:19.339 --> 00:32:22.039
can go find a newspaper where women and scholars

00:32:22.039 --> 00:32:24.519
are saying, look, this is the sign of how there's

00:32:24.519 --> 00:32:26.500
a problem with perpetuating this inequality.

00:32:26.880 --> 00:32:29.059
But my experience when I listen to women themselves.

00:32:29.609 --> 00:32:31.529
does not reinforce that, right? Their understanding

00:32:31.529 --> 00:32:34.289
is that this is not about, I just have to care

00:32:34.289 --> 00:32:35.930
about my husband. It has all of these other kinds

00:32:35.930 --> 00:32:39.390
of elements. Yeah. So would you say that inherently

00:32:39.390 --> 00:32:43.210
most, if not all Hindu traditions or rituals

00:32:43.210 --> 00:32:48.289
or practices are actually not suppressive of

00:32:48.289 --> 00:32:50.789
women? It's the way the narrative is shaped.

00:32:51.529 --> 00:32:54.589
Yes, but I would say that's all context -specific,

00:32:54.690 --> 00:32:56.390
right? It's hard to make any of those kind of

00:32:56.390 --> 00:32:58.769
universal, generalizable claims. I don't think

00:32:58.769 --> 00:33:01.049
there's any reason to assume that they absolutely

00:33:01.049 --> 00:33:04.509
are. They may be. You might find examples where

00:33:04.509 --> 00:33:06.789
they do function in that way. Sati, for example.

00:33:06.849 --> 00:33:09.869
Yeah, yeah. Although, again, Rajasthani women

00:33:09.869 --> 00:33:12.170
would say, Rajput women would say, only Rajput

00:33:12.170 --> 00:33:15.130
women can actually commit sati, right? So then

00:33:15.130 --> 00:33:17.549
sati, again, Rajput women would say, it is a

00:33:17.549 --> 00:33:20.660
sign of our unique sat. Right. So again, they

00:33:20.660 --> 00:33:22.099
are saying this is a part of our power. I'm not

00:33:22.099 --> 00:33:25.599
advocating for something. But I am saying that

00:33:25.599 --> 00:33:27.480
there's even that there's a way to read this

00:33:27.480 --> 00:33:29.640
on their own terms. Right. That they would say

00:33:29.640 --> 00:33:32.700
it is actually a demonstration of our this unique

00:33:32.700 --> 00:33:34.880
because they would say anybody else that was

00:33:34.880 --> 00:33:37.299
murder. Right. But this is this is like we as

00:33:37.299 --> 00:33:38.980
Rajput women actually have a unique power to

00:33:38.980 --> 00:33:42.839
commit something. But it's also so rare. I don't

00:33:42.839 --> 00:33:44.099
know that it's a good example to think about.

00:33:44.380 --> 00:33:46.380
Sorry, we may need to give a bit of context for

00:33:46.380 --> 00:33:50.400
our non-Hindu, Hindu, non-Indian. Yes, that

00:33:50.400 --> 00:33:54.319
sati is the practice of women dying on their

00:33:54.319 --> 00:33:57.440
husband's funeral pyre, which is not great. And

00:33:57.440 --> 00:33:59.140
there are certainly, well, I don't know. I mean,

00:33:59.160 --> 00:34:00.960
let me take that back. I shouldn't say that it's

00:34:00.960 --> 00:34:03.759
not great. It can be horrific. And there have

00:34:03.759 --> 00:34:05.819
been more recent suggestions that there were

00:34:05.819 --> 00:34:08.760
women who were coerced. by other family members

00:34:08.760 --> 00:34:11.300
of their husband onto a funeral pyre. But it

00:34:11.300 --> 00:34:13.539
was never a particularly widespread practice.

00:34:13.679 --> 00:34:15.679
It was a practice that was cited by the British,

00:34:15.719 --> 00:34:17.460
for example, as a reason for needing to colonize

00:34:17.460 --> 00:34:19.699
India. Even then, it was not nearly as widespread

00:34:19.699 --> 00:34:23.300
as they made it out to be. But they were quite

00:34:23.300 --> 00:34:25.719
horrified by the practice. But it's been a practice

00:34:25.719 --> 00:34:27.739
that has often been upheld as this is the quintessential

00:34:27.739 --> 00:34:29.719
example of how oppressive Hindu traditions are.

00:34:29.739 --> 00:34:31.760
Look what they make women do. And the argument

00:34:31.760 --> 00:34:34.960
for it is that Again, you can fast for the long

00:34:34.960 --> 00:34:36.860
life of your husband. So if your husband dies

00:34:36.860 --> 00:34:39.840
before you, that's a sign that you did not do

00:34:39.840 --> 00:34:42.760
your part as a wife well enough, right? Even

00:34:42.760 --> 00:34:45.519
though it is also understood that dying on the

00:34:45.519 --> 00:34:49.380
pyre is good for both you and him for your next

00:34:49.380 --> 00:34:53.719
life. It's not conceived as punishment for a

00:34:53.719 --> 00:34:56.000
woman. And it's not just something limited to

00:34:56.000 --> 00:34:58.400
Hinduism. Even the ancient Egyptians did it.

00:34:58.699 --> 00:35:01.079
Right. But I think that's kind of the fasting

00:35:01.079 --> 00:35:04.010
thing. It could be. It could be understood to

00:35:04.010 --> 00:35:05.809
be something that reinforces a certain kind of

00:35:05.809 --> 00:35:07.570
hierarchy, but I don't think it has to be. And

00:35:07.570 --> 00:35:08.949
again, I guess kind of my question is not just

00:35:08.949 --> 00:35:10.570
like, what about women, but like, what about

00:35:10.570 --> 00:35:12.250
women's power and agency? And it's kind of the

00:35:12.250 --> 00:35:13.449
question I'm interested in also is like, what

00:35:13.449 --> 00:35:15.530
about religion? I don't think everything is good

00:35:15.530 --> 00:35:16.650
for women. I don't think everything you'd be

00:35:16.650 --> 00:35:17.670
like, well, you can find a way that it's good

00:35:17.670 --> 00:35:18.949
for women. There are all kinds of things that

00:35:18.949 --> 00:35:21.190
are really bad for women. Patriarchy, generally

00:35:21.190 --> 00:35:25.519
really bad for women. And men, by the way. But

00:35:25.519 --> 00:35:28.519
I'm always interested in, well, can we kind of

00:35:28.519 --> 00:35:30.420
turn it? Can we understand it? The other thing

00:35:30.420 --> 00:35:32.659
is it's hard to say Hindu traditions are this

00:35:32.659 --> 00:35:35.139
because they're so varied and they're so flexible

00:35:35.139 --> 00:35:38.239
and fluid. And again, I say Hindu traditions

00:35:38.239 --> 00:35:39.940
instead of Hinduism because I don't think there

00:35:39.940 --> 00:35:42.340
is one Hinduism. So I think although those things

00:35:42.340 --> 00:35:43.880
would be context specific, the argument that

00:35:43.880 --> 00:35:49.239
I would make is that we should never just assume

00:35:49.239 --> 00:35:53.449
that women. But especially in these Hindu traditions

00:35:53.449 --> 00:35:56.349
that are being queried about how they may suppress

00:35:56.349 --> 00:36:01.769
women or oppress women. And also, I said this

00:36:01.769 --> 00:36:03.849
in class, that religious traditions don't do

00:36:03.849 --> 00:36:06.250
anything, right? People do things. Hindu traditions

00:36:06.250 --> 00:36:09.409
can't oppress women. People can oppress women.

00:36:10.049 --> 00:36:11.750
men and other women can oppress women, right?

00:36:11.829 --> 00:36:13.650
So people do this, but I don't think we should

00:36:13.650 --> 00:36:14.929
always assume that women are just being told

00:36:14.929 --> 00:36:17.190
what things mean. We want to pay attention to

00:36:17.190 --> 00:36:19.969
the ways in which women are defining for themselves

00:36:19.969 --> 00:36:22.710
and also saying women may choose to do this,

00:36:22.809 --> 00:36:26.170
right? Women may choose. They may want to, right?

00:36:26.230 --> 00:36:28.889
Your obligations can also be a desire, right?

00:36:29.190 --> 00:36:31.550
You can also want to be devoted to your husband

00:36:31.550 --> 00:36:34.969
in ways that look quite passive, right? That

00:36:34.969 --> 00:36:36.250
may be something that you find really fulfilling

00:36:36.250 --> 00:36:39.019
and that you want. And without... saying that

00:36:39.019 --> 00:36:41.860
it's good or bad one way or the other. I want

00:36:41.860 --> 00:36:43.679
us to be able to hold together that kind of ambiguity

00:36:43.679 --> 00:36:46.059
and the complexity of it and it not be one thing

00:36:46.059 --> 00:36:49.559
or the other. I certainly don't want people at

00:36:49.559 --> 00:36:53.099
the highest or the one end of a spectrum or those

00:36:53.099 --> 00:36:55.320
certainly outside of the tradition to go ahead

00:36:55.320 --> 00:36:57.639
and make those claims for Hindu traditions. I'm

00:36:57.639 --> 00:36:59.519
very interested in how can we understand what

00:36:59.519 --> 00:37:01.829
women are. saying themselves? And where can we

00:37:01.829 --> 00:37:04.650
find that in between lines of text where we don't

00:37:04.650 --> 00:37:06.449
hear women's voices directly, but we may hear

00:37:06.449 --> 00:37:08.630
about them indirectly? What can what women say

00:37:08.630 --> 00:37:10.869
today tell us about historical situations, etc?

00:37:11.090 --> 00:37:13.070
So my goal is not to come to an answer, is it

00:37:13.070 --> 00:37:15.690
good or bad? Right? Is it oppressive or not?

00:37:15.909 --> 00:37:17.909
I think that those would be really hard to find

00:37:17.909 --> 00:37:20.010
and kind of unsatisfactory. I'm just much more

00:37:20.010 --> 00:37:21.650
interested in where's the complexity? How can

00:37:21.650 --> 00:37:23.170
we see that there could maybe be doing multiple

00:37:23.170 --> 00:37:24.869
things simultaneously? It could be both good

00:37:24.869 --> 00:37:27.539
and bad. at the same time, right? It could be

00:37:27.539 --> 00:37:29.320
like liberating and oppressive in different ways

00:37:29.320 --> 00:37:31.360
simultaneously. And how do we take that seriously

00:37:31.360 --> 00:37:34.119
so we have more complex understandings of women,

00:37:34.260 --> 00:37:37.280
of religion, of women's practices within religion,

00:37:37.500 --> 00:37:39.340
women's understandings and engagement with religion,

00:37:39.480 --> 00:37:41.400
men's understanding. I just want us to have much

00:37:41.400 --> 00:37:43.639
more complex understandings about them. And by

00:37:43.639 --> 00:37:46.440
we here, I actually mean, overwhelmingly, I mean

00:37:46.440 --> 00:37:49.000
non-Hindu students in a Hindu classroom with

00:37:49.000 --> 00:37:53.449
me. who I think can be pushed to recognize the

00:37:53.449 --> 00:37:55.789
complexity. But my goal is actually not what

00:37:55.789 --> 00:37:58.650
they take away from classes about Hinduism, but

00:37:58.650 --> 00:38:00.329
what they take away about their own previous

00:38:00.329 --> 00:38:03.030
assumptions about religion, often rooted in Christianity,

00:38:03.250 --> 00:38:05.329
and to just think more complexity. Because the

00:38:05.329 --> 00:38:07.889
question that you're asking, I think the question

00:38:07.889 --> 00:38:10.030
that you're asking, can women fast for their

00:38:10.030 --> 00:38:13.170
husbands and still be feminist? That feels to

00:38:13.170 --> 00:38:15.329
me like less of a Hindu question than a Christian

00:38:15.329 --> 00:38:18.619
question. This is a question that Christians

00:38:18.619 --> 00:38:21.980
ask all the time, right? Can you be Christian

00:38:21.980 --> 00:38:23.519
and still be feminine? And it just is such a

00:38:23.519 --> 00:38:25.519
limited understanding of what any of those words

00:38:25.519 --> 00:38:29.300
mean. I think that Hindus generally have a much

00:38:29.300 --> 00:38:31.280
more capacious understanding, certainly of religion,

00:38:31.400 --> 00:38:33.260
right? It's definitely less black and white.

00:38:33.280 --> 00:38:35.219
There's a lot more gray area in the middle. That's

00:38:35.219 --> 00:38:36.500
right. So I just don't think that they would

00:38:36.500 --> 00:38:38.019
need to ask the question because it's not the

00:38:38.019 --> 00:38:40.539
question they would ask. Yeah. about hinduism

00:38:40.539 --> 00:38:42.019
i think they would ask a question about feminism

00:38:42.019 --> 00:38:43.639
but i'm not sure that it would be related to

00:38:43.639 --> 00:38:45.619
the Hinduism piece necessarily that wouldn't

00:38:45.619 --> 00:38:48.179
be the site at which they would try to um articulate

00:38:48.179 --> 00:38:51.639
or yeah to articulate this debate about feminism

00:38:51.639 --> 00:38:54.420
it seems to me like a very especially American

00:38:54.420 --> 00:38:57.760
Christian question it's definitely driven by

00:38:57.760 --> 00:39:02.159
a western viewpoint yeah now that i think about

00:39:02.159 --> 00:39:04.860
it yeah yeah so i think it's a it's a good question

00:39:05.420 --> 00:39:08.719
To ask for me, in my business, to ask through

00:39:08.719 --> 00:39:10.559
Hindu traditions because it can get me to get

00:39:10.559 --> 00:39:14.519
my non-Hindu and even my students who claim

00:39:14.519 --> 00:39:16.760
not to be religious but are deeply steeped in

00:39:16.760 --> 00:39:18.820
assumptions of Protestant Christianity to challenge

00:39:18.820 --> 00:39:21.760
their own assumptions about that in their own

00:39:21.760 --> 00:39:24.619
religious or non -religious kind of context.

00:39:24.920 --> 00:39:27.960
Because I don't know that it's a question that

00:39:27.960 --> 00:39:30.800
women in India are framing in quite that way.

00:39:31.800 --> 00:39:34.320
Coming back to what we spoke about, finding power

00:39:34.320 --> 00:39:37.719
in places where seemingly people don't think

00:39:37.719 --> 00:39:39.860
about it or people don't jump to the conclusion

00:39:39.860 --> 00:39:42.599
because of the patriarchal lens that Indian society

00:39:42.599 --> 00:39:47.280
has or the Western influences from the British

00:39:47.280 --> 00:39:49.960
charge era. How do we turn that narrative on

00:39:49.960 --> 00:39:52.880
its head of instead of saying, oh, women are

00:39:52.880 --> 00:39:56.360
stuck to the kitchen too. If the woman stops

00:39:56.360 --> 00:39:58.380
cooking in the kitchen, everybody dies. Right,

00:39:58.400 --> 00:40:00.860
right. So can I ask who the we is when you ask

00:40:00.860 --> 00:40:03.989
that? Are you thinking about Indians in India

00:40:03.989 --> 00:40:06.429
or are you thinking about non -Indians outside

00:40:06.429 --> 00:40:09.309
of the tradition? Let's say both because, yes,

00:40:09.469 --> 00:40:11.630
the answer would differ for Indians as compared

00:40:11.630 --> 00:40:14.650
to Westerners because they need to still understand

00:40:14.650 --> 00:40:18.030
India in its glory. That's right. I've been there

00:40:18.030 --> 00:40:20.150
18 years, grown up there. I still don't understand

00:40:20.150 --> 00:40:22.130
it. It's still something that's evolving for

00:40:22.130 --> 00:40:25.210
me. Yeah, I would say a little bit of both. Yeah.

00:40:25.389 --> 00:40:27.929
So I can I don't know. I might turn the Indian

00:40:27.929 --> 00:40:30.650
question back on you because I don't know. It

00:40:30.650 --> 00:40:32.590
may be a narrative or an assumption that you're

00:40:32.590 --> 00:40:34.809
more familiar with in the Indian context than

00:40:34.809 --> 00:40:37.389
I am. I can say in this in the context of the

00:40:37.389 --> 00:40:40.010
United States classroom, it is for me. There

00:40:40.010 --> 00:40:41.670
are many ways that you could do this. I think

00:40:41.670 --> 00:40:44.389
the way I do it because of my own training and

00:40:44.389 --> 00:40:46.150
my own interest is through these kinds of ethnographic

00:40:46.150 --> 00:40:49.170
pieces is trying to say, can we read the voices

00:40:49.170 --> 00:40:55.599
of and read about women who are not. necessarily

00:40:55.599 --> 00:41:00.019
the most idealized Hindu woman, right? Who's

00:41:00.019 --> 00:41:02.380
not just the woman that's assumed to be the kind

00:41:02.380 --> 00:41:04.079
of passive woman, or maybe is, right? But offers

00:41:04.079 --> 00:41:06.579
an alternative narrative. Can we listen to women

00:41:06.579 --> 00:41:09.610
from various social classes? different class

00:41:09.610 --> 00:41:11.409
statuses, different caste communities who are

00:41:11.409 --> 00:41:12.889
from North India, from South India, can we pay

00:41:12.889 --> 00:41:14.889
attention to their voices across different spectrum

00:41:14.889 --> 00:41:17.210
and see what do they say about themselves? So

00:41:17.210 --> 00:41:18.409
I think that's one way. I think there are a lot

00:41:18.409 --> 00:41:20.489
of ways to do this, but to pay careful attention

00:41:20.489 --> 00:41:22.550
to what, well, or in the example that I gave

00:41:22.550 --> 00:41:24.349
about Carpeth Chote, not just what do women say,

00:41:24.469 --> 00:41:27.650
but what do women do? Even when they say it's

00:41:27.650 --> 00:41:29.150
for our husbands, but what they're doing is spending

00:41:29.150 --> 00:41:30.710
all their time on women. I think we just take

00:41:30.710 --> 00:41:32.530
women very, very seriously and try to take those

00:41:32.530 --> 00:41:34.090
narratives very seriously and understand that

00:41:34.090 --> 00:41:36.510
they go across wide spectrums. That said, I want

00:41:36.510 --> 00:41:38.630
to challenge the assumption that women who are

00:41:38.630 --> 00:41:40.650
in the kitchen are only oppressed and they don't

00:41:40.650 --> 00:41:43.250
want to be there. And also, I mean, I'm thinking

00:41:43.250 --> 00:41:44.750
also about the fact that in the neighborhood

00:41:44.750 --> 00:41:46.769
where I do work, there's no such thing as like

00:41:46.769 --> 00:41:49.329
a private space. I love to tell the story that

00:41:49.329 --> 00:41:51.440
I lived in a... in a house that I had rented

00:41:51.440 --> 00:41:53.019
the rooms on the ground floor. The family that

00:41:53.019 --> 00:41:54.320
owned the home lived on the second floor. And

00:41:54.320 --> 00:41:56.360
then there was a family, a husband, wife, and

00:41:56.360 --> 00:41:58.679
two sons who rented a single room on the third

00:41:58.679 --> 00:42:00.320
floor. And that woman had set up like a table

00:42:00.320 --> 00:42:03.739
in the foyer, the window that was like her kitchen.

00:42:03.840 --> 00:42:05.780
She had a cooktop there. And I was making dinner

00:42:05.780 --> 00:42:07.380
one night. So it was dark outside, so I can't

00:42:07.380 --> 00:42:08.960
see outside, but there's a window in my kitchen

00:42:08.960 --> 00:42:10.679
and I'm cooking. And the neighbor that I was

00:42:10.679 --> 00:42:12.679
talking about, she yells down to me from her

00:42:12.679 --> 00:42:14.099
kitchen window on the second floor across the

00:42:14.099 --> 00:42:16.719
street down to my first. Story window. I'm telling

00:42:16.719 --> 00:42:18.159
this because if there are Indians listening to

00:42:18.159 --> 00:42:20.360
this, they will really like this. So she yells

00:42:20.360 --> 00:42:21.539
down to me and she says, what are you cooking?

00:42:21.840 --> 00:42:23.480
Now, I know who she is. I recognize her voice,

00:42:23.579 --> 00:42:25.159
right? I can't see her. I can't see out, but

00:42:25.159 --> 00:42:26.639
she can see in. But I know I can recognize her

00:42:26.639 --> 00:42:29.420
voice. And I said, oh, I'm making salad, salad.

00:42:30.000 --> 00:42:32.019
And then she said, are you going to make roti?

00:42:32.019 --> 00:42:34.199
the unleavened bread that every North Indian

00:42:34.199 --> 00:42:35.699
eats with every meal? It's the first thing girls

00:42:35.699 --> 00:42:37.739
know how to learn how to make, right? You can't.

00:42:37.739 --> 00:42:40.010
You're not really. a woman until you can make

00:42:40.010 --> 00:42:42.329
roti and so she said are you making roti and

00:42:42.329 --> 00:42:44.429
before I could answer my neighbor on the third

00:42:44.429 --> 00:42:46.789
floor yelled from her kitchen window down to

00:42:46.789 --> 00:42:48.289
the neighbor on the second floor window she doesn't

00:42:48.289 --> 00:42:50.090
know how to make roti and then I could hear the

00:42:50.090 --> 00:42:52.090
neighbor across on the other house laughing so

00:42:52.090 --> 00:42:53.750
like even to think about women in their kitchen

00:42:53.750 --> 00:42:56.510
as being forced into some private space where

00:42:56.510 --> 00:42:59.510
I lived your kitchen was public space right we

00:42:59.510 --> 00:43:01.309
were having conversations with each other and

00:43:01.309 --> 00:43:03.829
our neighbors from the site of the kitchen so

00:43:03.829 --> 00:43:06.780
I think um I think these are pretty narrow understandings

00:43:06.780 --> 00:43:08.820
of what life can be. So what we need is just

00:43:08.820 --> 00:43:11.539
a really wide swath of understanding of what

00:43:11.539 --> 00:43:13.380
does life look like. I also think that they,

00:43:13.480 --> 00:43:15.400
I think these may be Euro-American Christian

00:43:15.400 --> 00:43:17.800
terms, actually. We might want to think from

00:43:17.800 --> 00:43:19.820
within Indian traditions as women articulate

00:43:19.820 --> 00:43:21.860
for themselves. What are the terms by which they

00:43:21.860 --> 00:43:24.820
are upset about not having agency or power? So,

00:43:24.840 --> 00:43:26.579
for example, I always tell people that my host

00:43:26.579 --> 00:43:31.039
sisters were not jealous of my life when I was

00:43:31.039 --> 00:43:35.750
doing fieldwork generally. They did not want

00:43:35.750 --> 00:43:38.730
to do what I did, which was to move by myself

00:43:38.730 --> 00:43:41.449
thousands of miles away from my family. Right.

00:43:41.829 --> 00:43:44.250
I think mostly they felt really sad for me that

00:43:44.250 --> 00:43:46.389
like, aren't you lonely? And like, what do you

00:43:46.389 --> 00:43:48.409
mean you left your parents house at 18 and you

00:43:48.409 --> 00:43:50.389
never went back and you don't always see them

00:43:50.389 --> 00:43:52.349
that often and you live so far from your brothers

00:43:52.349 --> 00:43:55.030
and their kids like they didn't want that. They

00:43:55.030 --> 00:43:57.050
didn't look at me doing fieldwork there alone

00:43:57.050 --> 00:43:58.800
and thought, oh, I want that. They didn't see

00:43:58.800 --> 00:44:00.420
that as independence. I mean, they did, but it

00:44:00.420 --> 00:44:03.039
wasn't a desirable independence. That was just

00:44:03.039 --> 00:44:05.280
kind of sad. Now, I think they wanted to be able

00:44:05.280 --> 00:44:07.079
to leave the neighborhood the way that I did,

00:44:07.139 --> 00:44:08.480
the way their brothers did. They wanted to be

00:44:08.480 --> 00:44:09.719
able to have much more freedom to kind of come

00:44:09.719 --> 00:44:12.099
and go, but they didn't want to live like I lived,

00:44:12.159 --> 00:44:14.019
right? And so the assumption that that would

00:44:14.019 --> 00:44:15.920
be the ideal and that's what all women want is

00:44:15.920 --> 00:44:17.480
a sign of your ultimate independence, I think

00:44:17.480 --> 00:44:19.559
doesn't take seriously. What these women want

00:44:19.559 --> 00:44:21.719
was a little bit more mobility, but they certainly

00:44:21.719 --> 00:44:23.820
didn't want my life, right? And so I think just

00:44:23.820 --> 00:44:25.760
taking seriously, how do women themselves articulate?

00:44:26.320 --> 00:44:29.000
What they see as places that they understand

00:44:29.000 --> 00:44:30.619
themselves to be exercising power and agency,

00:44:30.800 --> 00:44:33.039
where do they see their own limitations and where

00:44:33.039 --> 00:44:34.559
do they want to push back on that without assuming

00:44:34.559 --> 00:44:38.739
there is one way that looks liberatory? And there

00:44:38.739 --> 00:44:41.420
would be women in India who probably do want

00:44:41.420 --> 00:44:43.420
your life, but that would not be the average

00:44:43.420 --> 00:44:47.280
Indian. That would be the elite, well -to -do,

00:44:47.280 --> 00:44:50.519
rich Indians who can afford it or who have an

00:44:50.519 --> 00:44:54.889
exposure to Western ideology. And it was our

00:44:54.889 --> 00:44:57.389
Hindu ethics class that made me realize I'm not

00:44:57.389 --> 00:44:59.690
a representative of the average Indian. Yeah.

00:44:59.750 --> 00:45:01.809
And I don't know who is, right? There's really

00:45:01.809 --> 00:45:04.030
no average Indian. So there might be women in

00:45:04.030 --> 00:45:06.250
your communities who actually do articulate that

00:45:06.250 --> 00:45:07.710
and feel like I'm not being allowed to do this

00:45:07.710 --> 00:45:10.829
thing that I want. We would need to take that

00:45:10.829 --> 00:45:12.369
seriously alongside the woman who says, well,

00:45:12.389 --> 00:45:13.889
I don't want that, but here are the places that

00:45:13.889 --> 00:45:16.010
I want a little bit more room. And a different

00:45:16.010 --> 00:45:17.190
woman who says, well, I don't even want that,

00:45:17.210 --> 00:45:18.909
but here's where I want a little bit more room.

00:45:19.070 --> 00:45:21.250
So I think we just have to take seriously what

00:45:21.250 --> 00:45:23.250
women themselves say about what they want and

00:45:23.250 --> 00:45:24.869
how they understand their own sense of agency

00:45:24.869 --> 00:45:26.369
and limitations and power. I don't think that

00:45:26.369 --> 00:45:27.949
means that we have to have a cultural relativism

00:45:27.949 --> 00:45:30.489
where we say, well, whatever anyone wants. But

00:45:30.489 --> 00:45:32.010
I do think we can start at a point of not assuming

00:45:32.010 --> 00:45:36.980
that there is only one way that a woman. is liberated,

00:45:37.059 --> 00:45:39.199
right? And exercises power and agency. And we

00:45:39.199 --> 00:45:41.960
can take seriously how women define that for

00:45:41.960 --> 00:45:44.159
themselves and also the ways in which they might

00:45:44.159 --> 00:45:47.139
absolutely be exercising agency and power already

00:45:47.139 --> 00:45:49.420
and that they're defining it for themselves.

00:45:49.460 --> 00:45:51.760
It just takes a careful eye and some attention

00:45:51.760 --> 00:45:53.760
to see how it's kind of developing in that way.

00:45:53.860 --> 00:45:56.579
So those were very good examples, I think, which

00:45:56.579 --> 00:45:59.239
we've also spoken about in the planning days

00:45:59.239 --> 00:46:02.400
of this episode, which was the one, the way people

00:46:02.400 --> 00:46:04.960
look at, oh, oppressed because she's in the kitchen

00:46:04.960 --> 00:46:07.719
as compared to the power of that so a different

00:46:07.719 --> 00:46:10.360
perspective on that what would you say are other

00:46:10.360 --> 00:46:14.159
things that people maybe need to snap out of

00:46:14.159 --> 00:46:16.559
the western thing of oh that's oppressive and

00:46:16.559 --> 00:46:17.980
maybe get a different perspective or is there

00:46:17.980 --> 00:46:20.019
a different perspective we should look at when

00:46:20.019 --> 00:46:22.989
it comes to certain things like this Well, I

00:46:22.989 --> 00:46:24.329
don't know. I couldn't offer a kind of universal

00:46:24.329 --> 00:46:26.070
claim. I'll tell you what I argue in my book

00:46:26.070 --> 00:46:29.730
about understanding dharma and the ways in which

00:46:29.730 --> 00:46:32.230
dharma is a fundamental idea in Hindu traditions

00:46:32.230 --> 00:46:35.730
about that each person has a... have the moral

00:46:35.730 --> 00:46:38.090
obligations based on who you are as a person,

00:46:38.150 --> 00:46:40.409
and that contributes to a cosmic moral order,

00:46:40.489 --> 00:46:42.889
but that's always developing. It's not solid

00:46:42.889 --> 00:46:45.110
or stable. And I argue for the ways in which

00:46:45.110 --> 00:46:47.369
women define their own dharma from the ground

00:46:47.369 --> 00:46:49.909
up in relationship to more traditions that move

00:46:49.909 --> 00:46:51.610
from the top down, and we can pay attention to

00:46:51.610 --> 00:46:53.710
that. So, for example, about Karvachot, I argue

00:46:53.710 --> 00:46:55.469
that those women there are creating a certain

00:46:55.469 --> 00:46:57.750
kind of neighbor dharma where they are obligated

00:46:57.750 --> 00:47:00.309
to their neighbors. But I have a different chapter

00:47:00.309 --> 00:47:02.349
where I write about a family that moved out of

00:47:02.349 --> 00:47:03.690
the neighborhood into a wealthier neighborhood.

00:47:05.230 --> 00:47:07.869
That woman, the woman who moved, she didn't move

00:47:07.869 --> 00:47:11.309
far from the neighborhood. She moved into a huge

00:47:11.309 --> 00:47:12.570
house, the biggest house, one of the biggest

00:47:12.570 --> 00:47:14.929
houses I've ever been in anywhere. She still

00:47:14.929 --> 00:47:16.769
cleans that marble floor on her hands and knees

00:47:16.769 --> 00:47:19.269
herself every single day. Even though all of

00:47:19.269 --> 00:47:22.110
her wealthy neighbors hired women to come in

00:47:22.110 --> 00:47:25.050
and do that work every day. I argued that was

00:47:25.050 --> 00:47:26.750
like a three dharma thing. She couldn't, it was

00:47:26.750 --> 00:47:28.909
so embodied. She couldn't not, and she cooked

00:47:28.909 --> 00:47:31.579
every meal. She could not. not cook and clean

00:47:31.579 --> 00:47:33.019
for her family even though the other wealthy

00:47:33.019 --> 00:47:34.380
women in the neighborhood were not doing it right

00:47:34.380 --> 00:47:36.099
they would hire people to cook and clean but

00:47:36.099 --> 00:47:38.420
she was not training her daughters to cook and

00:47:38.420 --> 00:47:40.780
clean so whereas in her former neighborhood girls

00:47:40.780 --> 00:47:42.639
would come home from school right they would

00:47:42.639 --> 00:47:45.159
cook and clean and then do their homework and

00:47:45.159 --> 00:47:46.619
then get up in the morning and clean before they

00:47:46.619 --> 00:47:49.360
went to school her daughters did not They came

00:47:49.360 --> 00:47:51.280
home. They did their homework. She did all the

00:47:51.280 --> 00:47:52.579
cooking and cleaning. She said she would teach

00:47:52.579 --> 00:47:54.960
them on holidays, right? She was reorienting

00:47:54.960 --> 00:47:56.940
their dharma. She was redefining that. She was

00:47:56.940 --> 00:47:58.820
training her daughters in to be the kind of women

00:47:58.820 --> 00:47:59.980
who will understand that they should be devoted

00:47:59.980 --> 00:48:02.239
to their husband, but that doesn't mean that

00:48:02.239 --> 00:48:04.090
they're cleaning. The floor or they're cooking

00:48:04.090 --> 00:48:05.949
every meal. She was training them in to be the

00:48:05.949 --> 00:48:07.909
kind of women who could be comfortable in a dharma

00:48:07.909 --> 00:48:09.610
world where they can hire people to come outside

00:48:09.610 --> 00:48:11.590
and do that. And what their dharma will look

00:48:11.590 --> 00:48:13.989
like is helping their daughters to be educated,

00:48:14.110 --> 00:48:16.869
right? And working themselves in educated positions.

00:48:16.989 --> 00:48:19.309
It will be a very different kind of dharma. So

00:48:19.309 --> 00:48:21.909
I think that turning to internal concepts and

00:48:21.909 --> 00:48:23.050
thinking about like, well, what are we defining

00:48:23.050 --> 00:48:24.869
about? And I make an argument that dharma is

00:48:24.869 --> 00:48:27.650
just a good definition for religion, for understanding.

00:48:28.119 --> 00:48:30.440
we are and can and should be in the world. I

00:48:30.440 --> 00:48:31.940
think that we could turn to those conceptions

00:48:31.940 --> 00:48:34.400
and think about how we're Indians defining, I

00:48:34.400 --> 00:48:36.639
shouldn't say Indians, I should say Hindus, defining

00:48:36.639 --> 00:48:39.360
for themselves what it means to be Hindu and

00:48:39.360 --> 00:48:40.820
that you wouldn't have to necessarily operate

00:48:40.820 --> 00:48:42.980
in these terms. And feminism may be helpful for

00:48:42.980 --> 00:48:44.960
thinking about that. It may not. And that could

00:48:44.960 --> 00:48:47.019
be fine. But again, I keep saying this, but it

00:48:47.019 --> 00:48:48.380
just kind of, I think it comes back to taking

00:48:48.380 --> 00:48:50.340
seriously what do women say about themselves.

00:48:50.480 --> 00:48:53.320
And, you know, more and more, I feel like. I

00:48:53.320 --> 00:48:57.449
also, at the risk of sounding so condescending

00:48:57.449 --> 00:49:00.329
in a way that I don't mean to. My position on

00:49:00.329 --> 00:49:02.969
this changes so much the older I get now that

00:49:02.969 --> 00:49:07.250
I am a wife and a mother. Oh my God, please let

00:49:07.250 --> 00:49:09.210
me go to the kitchen because it's an hour that

00:49:09.210 --> 00:49:11.389
I have a legitimate reason to not have to do

00:49:11.389 --> 00:49:14.050
childcare. Like I just want to be stuck in the

00:49:14.050 --> 00:49:16.809
kitchen. With a podcast and my own time, like

00:49:16.809 --> 00:49:20.510
I am dying to just cook. It is actually a real

00:49:20.510 --> 00:49:23.590
relief. Right. And I think when I was an 18 year

00:49:23.590 --> 00:49:25.090
old and a brand new feminist, I thought like,

00:49:25.150 --> 00:49:26.670
oh, I won't cook. And I thought these things.

00:49:26.730 --> 00:49:29.170
And now I love to cook, especially as an academic.

00:49:29.190 --> 00:49:31.889
It's a tangible thing I produce. And it is a

00:49:31.889 --> 00:49:33.670
legitimate reason to say to my husband, I'm doing

00:49:33.670 --> 00:49:36.250
this thing for our family. Keep the kids out

00:49:36.250 --> 00:49:38.150
of the kitchen. It is a legitimate reason to

00:49:38.150 --> 00:49:40.949
not have to parent. So I think that the older

00:49:40.949 --> 00:49:42.750
that we get. So I also wonder how much of these

00:49:42.750 --> 00:49:45.480
questions. I don't think they're questions that

00:49:45.480 --> 00:49:48.460
older women might ask in the same way. I think

00:49:48.460 --> 00:49:50.480
it would depend on class and caste, but also

00:49:50.480 --> 00:49:53.059
age. So the idea that you would be a really devout

00:49:53.059 --> 00:49:54.360
wife, you would want to cook, that you would

00:49:54.360 --> 00:49:55.380
want to be in your house, that you would want

00:49:55.380 --> 00:49:57.719
to do these things. Those might become more and

00:49:57.719 --> 00:49:59.920
more desirable reliefs from other kinds of street

00:49:59.920 --> 00:50:02.659
and other kinds of responsibilities. But being

00:50:02.659 --> 00:50:04.139
in the kitchen, I mean, my God, if I could just

00:50:04.139 --> 00:50:05.420
have a week and all I had to do was cook and

00:50:05.420 --> 00:50:06.880
clean for my family, that would be amazing. As

00:50:06.880 --> 00:50:07.940
long as that meant they weren't in the house

00:50:07.940 --> 00:50:10.739
also. So I think there are also these assumptions

00:50:10.739 --> 00:50:12.400
that I think it's important for us to remember

00:50:12.400 --> 00:50:14.239
the ways in which all of these ideas get complicated

00:50:14.239 --> 00:50:17.559
as our own lives get complicated. It may be an

00:50:17.559 --> 00:50:21.260
easier question to ask. at a younger age when

00:50:21.260 --> 00:50:23.920
what you're thinking about is feminism as a political

00:50:23.920 --> 00:50:27.139
ideal rather than a really complicated and messy

00:50:27.139 --> 00:50:28.940
reality of what does it look like. And I don't

00:50:28.940 --> 00:50:30.219
think that's true just in – it's true everywhere.

00:50:30.420 --> 00:50:32.119
I think that idea was complicated for me by my

00:50:32.119 --> 00:50:34.380
own grandmother and my own mother who had very

00:50:34.380 --> 00:50:36.940
complicated feminist politics because they had

00:50:36.940 --> 00:50:38.420
complicated lives and I didn't really realize

00:50:38.420 --> 00:50:40.280
it at the time before my life was more complicated

00:50:40.280 --> 00:50:42.500
by these things. But I think also those things,

00:50:42.559 --> 00:50:45.099
the things that we're talking about are not unique

00:50:45.099 --> 00:50:47.300
to India or Hinduism. They're as true in the

00:50:47.300 --> 00:50:49.179
United States as they are anywhere else. But

00:50:49.179 --> 00:50:50.579
I do think it could be helpful to think through

00:50:50.579 --> 00:50:54.699
it in other contexts. I think it's easier often

00:50:54.699 --> 00:50:58.199
to critique a different context. And if I, as

00:50:58.199 --> 00:51:00.059
a professor, can challenge that critique and

00:51:00.059 --> 00:51:03.980
turn it back onto myself and my students, then

00:51:03.980 --> 00:51:06.179
it can be really productive. So I think the critique

00:51:06.179 --> 00:51:08.119
about those assumptions is easier to do first

00:51:08.119 --> 00:51:10.440
kind of out there before I turn it back onto.

00:51:11.609 --> 00:51:13.530
non -Hindu students or maybe Hindu students,

00:51:13.590 --> 00:51:15.309
right? And those own kinds of assumptions, making

00:51:15.309 --> 00:51:16.550
it kind of out there makes it a little easier

00:51:16.550 --> 00:51:17.769
to engage. And then you could say, oh, by the

00:51:17.769 --> 00:51:19.409
way, here's how you're doing the same thing that

00:51:19.409 --> 00:51:21.030
you were just so comfortable to critique of somebody

00:51:21.030 --> 00:51:23.590
else. Without realizing it. Yes, exactly. And

00:51:23.590 --> 00:51:27.110
it's interesting to see how perceptions and interpretations

00:51:27.110 --> 00:51:29.929
of stridharma are changing. Yes, that's right.

00:51:29.989 --> 00:51:34.170
Because whether you're looking at things like

00:51:35.309 --> 00:51:38.130
oh, I have to cook and clean. I want to because

00:51:38.130 --> 00:51:40.809
it's time for me. That's right. Or even if it's,

00:51:40.809 --> 00:51:46.269
for example, my grandmother, my Nani, extremely

00:51:46.269 --> 00:51:49.530
elegant woman. So my mom's from a small town

00:51:49.530 --> 00:51:54.710
in North India called Meerut. And it's very,

00:51:54.789 --> 00:51:57.920
very... old class right it's got it's got those

00:51:57.920 --> 00:52:00.699
those traditional mentalities yeah it's like

00:52:00.699 --> 00:52:03.420
meaty hair so they have to do this or like whatever

00:52:03.420 --> 00:52:07.139
uh and she is one out of three sisters no brothers

00:52:07.139 --> 00:52:13.420
so it's it's very very uncommon oh they didn't

00:52:13.420 --> 00:52:15.500
have a son yeah and my grandparents were very

00:52:15.500 --> 00:52:17.320
forward thinking in the sense that my grandmother

00:52:17.320 --> 00:52:19.460
never went to the kitchen though she hosted very

00:52:19.460 --> 00:52:22.119
lavish dinner parties and had everybody over

00:52:22.119 --> 00:52:24.079
there was always food flowing but she never stepped

00:52:24.079 --> 00:52:26.079
in the kitchen she had staff for that she never

00:52:26.079 --> 00:52:29.139
made her daughter step into the kitchen uh my

00:52:29.139 --> 00:52:31.840
mother now knows how to cook because she likes

00:52:31.840 --> 00:52:34.239
doing it because she enjoys being in the kitchen

00:52:34.239 --> 00:52:36.880
and making new things up and looking at the expression

00:52:36.880 --> 00:52:38.940
people try the food but it's not because she

00:52:38.940 --> 00:52:42.010
has to it's because she wants to So it's interesting

00:52:42.010 --> 00:52:45.369
to see how that dynamic is slowly changing into

00:52:45.369 --> 00:52:48.429
how people are, they're still fulfilling their

00:52:48.429 --> 00:52:51.329
dharmic obligations in some way or the other,

00:52:51.429 --> 00:52:53.730
but it's not in the sense that, oh, I have to

00:52:53.730 --> 00:52:55.469
do this, so I'm doing it. It's because you want

00:52:55.469 --> 00:52:58.170
to do it. That's right. And I guess in a sense,

00:52:58.190 --> 00:53:01.150
that is the liberation that feminism is asking

00:53:01.150 --> 00:53:04.920
for. Yeah. Yeah. And I guess it doesn't have

00:53:04.920 --> 00:53:06.599
to be in terms of liberation, quite honestly.

00:53:06.739 --> 00:53:08.480
It can just be about agency that doesn't require

00:53:08.480 --> 00:53:10.360
liberation, but that allows you to and not even

00:53:10.360 --> 00:53:15.400
to do what you want, but to be able to imagine

00:53:15.400 --> 00:53:17.099
a world for yourself and articulate ways that

00:53:17.099 --> 00:53:19.940
you might be able to enable that. Right. And

00:53:19.940 --> 00:53:21.739
even if you don't do that, if you say, yeah,

00:53:21.800 --> 00:53:23.380
I really like this and I'm not trying to imagine

00:53:23.380 --> 00:53:24.719
something different or do something different,

00:53:24.820 --> 00:53:26.619
that can still be deeply agent if we don't decide

00:53:26.619 --> 00:53:28.920
that that's a sign that a woman is kind of oppressed.

00:53:29.000 --> 00:53:30.360
But I think you raise an interesting point here

00:53:30.360 --> 00:53:33.130
about. You know, saying like, OK, I'm not going

00:53:33.130 --> 00:53:35.690
to be in the kitchen thinking about what is lost

00:53:35.690 --> 00:53:37.550
there. You know, I think about how important

00:53:37.550 --> 00:53:40.230
it is for me to cook for my kids and the actual

00:53:40.230 --> 00:53:42.590
experience of food. And I like to do it. I mean,

00:53:42.590 --> 00:53:45.110
I'm going to leave here and go home and finish

00:53:45.110 --> 00:53:46.630
a cake that I started at eight o 'clock last

00:53:46.630 --> 00:53:48.530
night for my two year old's birthday. I got to

00:53:48.530 --> 00:53:50.070
go home and make frost. She's not going to remember

00:53:50.070 --> 00:53:51.590
that. She doesn't really. But it actually matters

00:53:51.590 --> 00:53:54.730
to me as a practice. Right. And I couldn't get

00:53:54.730 --> 00:53:56.150
it together to throw a birthday party, but I

00:53:56.150 --> 00:53:59.090
made the cake. Right. So like. So there's something

00:53:59.090 --> 00:54:01.309
that gets lost in that, those relationships that

00:54:01.309 --> 00:54:04.269
are built and maintained and sustained through

00:54:04.269 --> 00:54:06.670
food. And food is such a deeply embodied practice

00:54:06.670 --> 00:54:09.750
by which you're passing on traditions. So, yes,

00:54:09.869 --> 00:54:11.929
you gain liberation from the kitchen and you

00:54:11.929 --> 00:54:14.650
might lose other kinds of moments of interaction

00:54:14.650 --> 00:54:17.269
and engagement and passing on things. And I don't

00:54:17.269 --> 00:54:18.949
mean to suggest that one is bad or good, but

00:54:18.949 --> 00:54:20.789
this is a great example of the kind of questions

00:54:20.789 --> 00:54:23.050
that I think we should ask, which is, great,

00:54:23.190 --> 00:54:25.389
we have an idea of what is gained. What is potentially

00:54:25.389 --> 00:54:28.170
lost, right? And so I don't think there's ever

00:54:28.170 --> 00:54:30.590
a solution that's all of the things, right? But

00:54:30.590 --> 00:54:32.409
I think always challenging that there's one way

00:54:32.409 --> 00:54:33.909
that we can interpret any of these narratives,

00:54:34.010 --> 00:54:36.650
especially if it's a narrative about women's

00:54:36.650 --> 00:54:38.570
oppression and especially if it's a narrative

00:54:38.570 --> 00:54:40.590
that's being made by someone other than the woman

00:54:40.590 --> 00:54:43.190
herself. I think we should say, okay, well, let's

00:54:43.190 --> 00:54:45.630
have a complicated, a much more complicated conversation.

00:54:47.449 --> 00:54:49.050
Let's try to think about this in a more complicated

00:54:49.050 --> 00:54:52.000
ways. Again, I... Not unique to Hindu or Indian

00:54:52.000 --> 00:54:54.079
women. That's true of all women everywhere, right?

00:54:54.619 --> 00:54:57.199
I'm always wary when someone tells me that someone

00:54:57.199 --> 00:55:00.500
else, another woman, is oppressed. And we have

00:55:00.500 --> 00:55:02.820
not heard from that woman herself. And she may

00:55:02.820 --> 00:55:04.460
be. But there may also be ways that even within

00:55:04.460 --> 00:55:06.159
that, oppression is not one way. There are still

00:55:06.159 --> 00:55:08.900
kinds of enactments of agency within that. And

00:55:08.900 --> 00:55:10.280
so I'm always a little wary of that. And so I

00:55:10.280 --> 00:55:11.659
guess that might be one of my responses to your

00:55:11.659 --> 00:55:13.659
question earlier about how do we do that. To

00:55:13.659 --> 00:55:16.909
hear the narrative. in the newspaper, on the

00:55:16.909 --> 00:55:18.530
news, and then go, well, what is the other side?

00:55:18.650 --> 00:55:20.630
And sometimes, by the way, there might not be

00:55:20.630 --> 00:55:22.630
another side. The first thing that's coming to

00:55:22.630 --> 00:55:25.389
my mind is thinking about, like, you know, sexual

00:55:25.389 --> 00:55:27.329
assault, right? I'm not advocating, like, well,

00:55:27.469 --> 00:55:29.829
what's the other side of that, right? I'm not

00:55:29.829 --> 00:55:31.510
advocating about... I think there are clear signs

00:55:31.510 --> 00:55:33.610
of violence, right, that can be very... that

00:55:33.610 --> 00:55:37.449
we can... we don't need both sides of that. And

00:55:37.449 --> 00:55:39.269
that's actually the duality of India. You have

00:55:39.269 --> 00:55:42.329
a place which worships women in the day, and

00:55:42.329 --> 00:55:44.900
then... commits atrocities in the night like

00:55:44.900 --> 00:55:46.840
it's yeah so this is a question that i almost

00:55:46.840 --> 00:55:49.139
always get how does a culture that worships goddesses

00:55:49.139 --> 00:55:52.179
also abuse women and my response is the same

00:55:52.179 --> 00:55:55.110
way that every culture everywhere Some narratives

00:55:55.110 --> 00:55:57.789
by which they valorize women and abuse them because

00:55:57.789 --> 00:56:00.269
people are complicated, period. And especially

00:56:00.269 --> 00:56:02.170
in patriarchal cultures, patriarchy is complicated

00:56:02.170 --> 00:56:04.510
and creates and reproduces these complications.

00:56:05.369 --> 00:56:07.030
That, I think, is a really good example of how

00:56:07.030 --> 00:56:08.769
I try to push students back to think about, like,

00:56:08.769 --> 00:56:10.550
well, where are the places in which we valorize

00:56:10.550 --> 00:56:12.170
mothers in the United States and yet we abuse

00:56:12.170 --> 00:56:14.789
women? We don't support single mothers, right?

00:56:14.789 --> 00:56:16.750
Not to write it off or endorse it in any way.

00:56:16.889 --> 00:56:19.809
Yeah, that's right. That's right. It's a question

00:56:19.809 --> 00:56:21.929
that, again, I think is easy to ask about India

00:56:21.929 --> 00:56:23.570
because you can look out there and say, like,

00:56:23.690 --> 00:56:25.349
Or Hinduism, right? It seems really easy to ask

00:56:25.349 --> 00:56:27.289
that question. And I think it's no more of a

00:56:27.289 --> 00:56:29.110
pertinent question in an Indian context than

00:56:29.110 --> 00:56:30.630
in a United States context. We could ask the

00:56:30.630 --> 00:56:31.969
question here, even if we're not worshipping

00:56:31.969 --> 00:56:33.530
goddesses. We have all kinds of narratives by

00:56:33.530 --> 00:56:36.349
which we valorize certain kinds of women and

00:56:36.349 --> 00:56:39.150
not other women. And so the answer is people

00:56:39.150 --> 00:56:42.309
are complicated. And it seems really unfair to

00:56:42.309 --> 00:56:44.449
me and really problematic on the part of the

00:56:44.449 --> 00:56:47.449
questioner to ask the question as though you

00:56:47.449 --> 00:56:50.900
can only be one way. about women or one way about

00:56:50.900 --> 00:56:54.539
anything that you don't allow for other cultures

00:56:54.539 --> 00:56:57.340
that are not your own to be complicated. When

00:56:57.340 --> 00:56:59.780
you might allow your own culture to be complicated.

00:56:59.840 --> 00:57:02.760
That I think is the problem, yeah. So the real

00:57:02.760 --> 00:57:07.099
important takeaway from here should be to ask

00:57:07.099 --> 00:57:09.079
the right kind of questions and that we're not

00:57:09.079 --> 00:57:12.320
doing that yet. Yeah, I think that this is, or

00:57:12.320 --> 00:57:14.400
maybe not the, I don't know exactly what the

00:57:14.400 --> 00:57:15.940
right question is, but to ask more questions,

00:57:16.119 --> 00:57:17.679
to always be asking questions. To understand

00:57:17.679 --> 00:57:19.639
the other perspective. Yeah, to ask, like, okay,

00:57:19.679 --> 00:57:22.599
what could be the other side, right? And it doesn't

00:57:22.599 --> 00:57:23.820
mean, again, I'm not advocating for cultural

00:57:23.820 --> 00:57:26.260
relativism where everybody is equally right all

00:57:26.260 --> 00:57:28.079
the time, but that we could ask the question.

00:57:28.880 --> 00:57:30.500
And I think especially if we're trying to make

00:57:30.500 --> 00:57:32.940
claims about somebody else's or some other kind

00:57:32.940 --> 00:57:36.380
of community's existence. Ask yourself, wait,

00:57:36.420 --> 00:57:38.460
have I heard from that community? Is there a

00:57:38.460 --> 00:57:40.719
way that I can find out what they say about their

00:57:40.719 --> 00:57:43.400
own situation so that I have a more robust view?

00:57:43.679 --> 00:57:45.320
And you may come down the same side, right? You

00:57:45.320 --> 00:57:46.460
may say, no, I think I was right in the first

00:57:46.460 --> 00:57:49.440
place and I ended up where I began. But I think

00:57:49.440 --> 00:57:51.880
the process of saying like, well, how can I try

00:57:51.880 --> 00:57:53.760
to understand what these women would say for

00:57:53.760 --> 00:57:55.860
themselves and take that seriously could be really

00:57:55.860 --> 00:57:58.079
productive. I mean, I think that's the challenge

00:57:58.079 --> 00:57:59.880
to how do we get out of our own heads that we

00:57:59.880 --> 00:58:02.039
actually try to listen to. what other people

00:58:02.039 --> 00:58:04.059
say now how do we get to listening to them that's

00:58:04.059 --> 00:58:07.019
also really really hard right who how do you

00:58:07.019 --> 00:58:09.239
do that it's very easy to say kind of ideally

00:58:09.239 --> 00:58:12.300
like well let's listen to women okay well that

00:58:12.300 --> 00:58:14.699
actually requires a lot right to like listen

00:58:14.699 --> 00:58:16.219
to women and we were saying this in the classroom

00:58:16.219 --> 00:58:19.960
here um you can listen to women but If you don't

00:58:19.960 --> 00:58:21.340
have the language skills to talk to women themselves,

00:58:21.519 --> 00:58:22.960
you don't have the access, who do we listen to?

00:58:23.039 --> 00:58:24.920
How does that become mediated by scholars or

00:58:24.920 --> 00:58:26.500
by journalists, by other things? It's a really

00:58:26.500 --> 00:58:29.440
hard thing actually to listen to women. But I

00:58:29.440 --> 00:58:31.059
think those possibilities are out there. Also,

00:58:31.119 --> 00:58:33.860
it's a hard thing not only because it's mediated

00:58:33.860 --> 00:58:36.679
because you have to have the time and the freedom

00:58:36.679 --> 00:58:39.420
and the privilege to sit around and try to find

00:58:39.420 --> 00:58:42.960
out all of that other information. Most students

00:58:42.960 --> 00:58:45.360
at Middlebury may have the time and the privilege

00:58:45.360 --> 00:58:48.280
to do that. Everyone might not. So even as I'm

00:58:48.280 --> 00:58:49.800
saying this, like let's listen to women, I want

00:58:49.800 --> 00:58:51.539
to address that that's a very complicated thing

00:58:51.539 --> 00:58:53.380
to do, not only in order to listen to women,

00:58:53.460 --> 00:58:55.900
but because not everyone has the time to sit

00:58:55.900 --> 00:58:58.880
around and think about that. But for those that

00:58:58.880 --> 00:59:00.579
do, I think the way that we complicate that is

00:59:00.579 --> 00:59:02.019
to say, well, what is the other side and what

00:59:02.019 --> 00:59:04.199
are women themselves saying about their own situations?

00:59:04.619 --> 00:59:08.460
Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, we usually end the episode

00:59:08.460 --> 00:59:11.840
with a big idea or something to leave the audience

00:59:11.840 --> 00:59:14.739
with or something to think about. What would

00:59:14.739 --> 00:59:17.719
you like to say to end the episode? Well, I guess

00:59:17.719 --> 00:59:19.159
it would be this idea that we're getting to here,

00:59:19.219 --> 00:59:20.599
which is not necessarily ask the right questions,

00:59:20.619 --> 00:59:23.679
but just to keep asking questions, to keep asking.

00:59:24.880 --> 00:59:26.599
different questions. I don't know exactly what

00:59:26.599 --> 00:59:28.079
the right question will be, but to keep asking

00:59:28.079 --> 00:59:29.679
different questions and trying to find as many

00:59:29.679 --> 00:59:32.260
ways to answer those questions as possible before

00:59:32.260 --> 00:59:34.880
trying to kind of come to conclusions and to

00:59:34.880 --> 00:59:37.760
be very open to the ways in which your own assumptions

00:59:37.760 --> 00:59:41.039
about the world may be challenged in ways that

00:59:41.039 --> 00:59:44.260
may also be deeply, deeply uncomfortable. But

00:59:44.260 --> 00:59:45.860
that sitting with that discomfort and continuing

00:59:45.860 --> 00:59:48.699
to think through questions in that discomfort

00:59:48.699 --> 00:59:51.059
is, I think, really the most productive way for

00:59:51.059 --> 00:59:54.360
us to continue conversations. Although I will

00:59:54.360 --> 00:59:56.000
say I'm not sure I'm as good at that in my personal

00:59:56.000 --> 00:59:57.780
life as I am in my professional life. So take

00:59:57.780 --> 01:00:01.059
that with a grain of salt also. All right. I

01:00:01.059 --> 01:00:03.940
think with that, we are at the end of our episode.

01:00:04.000 --> 01:00:06.079
Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for

01:00:06.079 --> 01:00:08.599
having me. Stay tuned for the next episode of

01:00:08.599 --> 01:00:09.300
the Monkey Mind Lab!