On today's episode of the Monkey Mind Lab, we
have with us Professor Nadia Horning, a distinguished
scholar and educator at Middlebury College. As
a professor of international and global studies,
she brings with her a wealth of knowledge in
African politics, environmental governance, and
leadership development. Born in Madagascar and
educated across three continents, Professor Horning
holds degrees from George Mason University and
a PhD in comparative politics from Cornell University.
Her research delves into the politics of deforestation
in Africa, particularly Madagascar, Tanzania,
and Uganda, as well as the dynamics of African
brain flight and brain gain. Beyond her academic
pursuits, she has held leadership roles at Middlebury,
including directing the African Studies Program
and Social Entrepreneurship Programs. She is
currently the Director of the Rohatyn Global
Scholars Program and Acting Director of the Rohatyn
Center for Global Affairs. Please join me in
welcoming Professor Nadia Horning. Welcome, Professor.
Hello. So, as I'm sure the big question in everybody's
mind is, Before we even delve into our question
of the day, what is really the difference between
international and global? One easy way, I think,
to distinguish the two terms, keeping in mind
that they overlap, but they're still distinct.
One way to think about the international is to
think in terms of state or country or nation
state. So international refers to the relationships
between two countries or several countries, but
the unit of interaction is the state, the country.
The global is also about relations, but The relations
are more about connectivity beyond the geographic
areas. So what is global is something that transcends
physical geographic borders and gets you into
a sphere where people can actually communicate
and build communities. regardless of where they
come from or where they live or where they dwell,
essentially. So that would be the main difference,
I think, between the two. And then, of course,
there's much more to say about the two concepts,
but another thing you can associate with the
global in addition to connectivity is probably
flow, People interact, they share ideas, they
trade goods and services, they exchange viewpoints,
they show each other that there are different
ways of doing and different ways of thinking.
So you dress this way, I dress this way, and
then, oh, I'm going to take a little bit from
your way because it's really cool or it's less
expensive or it's fashionable. It's whatever
it is. So I would say that the global, I think,
leads you to think and do in ways that I would
say hybridized. You just mesh ways of thinking.
and ways of doing. So it's a blend, it's a hybrid
of what different parts of the world have to
offer. Does that make sense? Yeah. So that would
be, so, yeah. But again, they overlap. You know,
there is no, it's very difficult because all,
well, most human beings are organized into nation
states. You are born into one. It's difficult
to extricate yourself from that. Which means
that it requires international relations to arrive
at a possibility, I think, of globalization and
supraterritorial connectivity. I don't know if
my fancy words are confusing you or if they're
helping you, but that's really, that's the distinction.
I think that that's really helpful. So in other
words, one could say that. The international
is more defined by borders and politics, but
the global is something that unites us as human
beings on planet Earth. Beyond borders. Beyond
borders, yeah. Across and beyond borders. Across
and beyond borders. Almost like regardless of
borders. Yeah. Yeah. So we can really, we can
all be like, oh, yellow collar haters. from around
the world, and we just really, that's our ideology.
We hate yellow, and we're going to do all kinds
of things about it, and the first thing is we're
going to communicate the ways in which we hate
the yellow color. That, of course, is a silly
example, but it's really that. You could be a
fruit hater, or you can adhere to a religion,
for instance. Jews, Muslims, Christians, Hindus
in different parts of the world. They do form
a community or a family, some will say, but they're
not confined to where they dwell. They can communicate
and worship across and beyond borders. Okay.
So now time for the million -dollar question
for the week. Is there a difference between a
global education and an international education?
Well, I'll let you guess. If international is
different from global, surely there's a difference
between international education and global education.
And how do we get to it? Maybe by asking you
about your experience. You mentioned that I was
educated on three continents. So you can see,
you can hear already, like there's territorial
definition there because you said three continents.
But there's also something, I must have become
something beyond the three continents where I
was educated. So instead of talking about me,
I think it would be interesting to talk about
you and ask you about your educational background.
So the RGS scholar in me obviously knows that
this answer has a more... Okay, let me rephrase
that. Okay, so you are at Middlebury College,
first year. And I know you come from India because
you tell me every time you see me. Like it's
not obvious. So in my mind, I think of you as,
actually I don't think of you as an international
student, but if need be, if I need to. you know,
put you in a category, I would say, oh, up here
is an international student. That means something.
It means that, you know, you came from one part
of the world, in this case, India, and you are
in the United States, very much international,
India, United States, and receiving an education,
you know, as defined in the United States, and
then quite possibly. having plans to return to
India. So you take your American education back
to India and you make a life of it, a wonderful
life of it. But my guess is that coming to Middlebury
is not your first exposure to international relations.
So did you experience international relations,
for instance, where you were educated? I'm assuming
it was in India. So yes, going back to my educational
background, before I became an RGS scholar, I
would have probably said, oh yeah, there's no
difference between a global and international
education. I got that. But in hindsight, I can
now say that I was very fortunate, keeping in
mind, I was very fortunate to have received a
wonderful... international education but my global
education only started here at middlebury so
what does that mean exactly um while i didn't
study on three different continents i did study
three different boards so i did the icsc which
is uh the indian national curriculum up till
the eighth grade i did the igcsc which is the
british curriculum um in the 9th and 10th. And
then I did the IB, which is the International
Baccalaureate Program in the 11th and 12th, which
is a Swiss program, if I'm not mistaken. Yes,
Swiss. So I got a very well -rounded education
when it comes to multiple fronts. If you look
at it, the ICSE gave me a very strong foundation
in English and maths, but... The IGCIC gave me
the wonderful skill of adapting and applying
my knowledge, what I learned. But the IB is where
it truly came to the international education,
where we had a little bit of everything. So it
was a little bit of the sciences, a little bit
of the maths, a little bit of arts, a little
bit of English, a little bit of everything, a
foreign language. So that was, I guess, my first
exposure to a liberal arts education at the high
school level. And because they were international
curricula, the content being taught in textbooks
and in the classroom, I suppose, while I wouldn't
say is free from bias, is definitely not biased
towards a particular nation. That one might say
doing history in the Indian curriculum might
be very pro -Indian narratives or whichever government
is in power right now, they're very pro -them
as compared to studying history from a more international
point of view, from a Western point of view.
Thank you. Yes. I think that, you know, I was
not in your school. I don't know how you learned.
In fact, I'm wondering if you had non -Indian
teachers teach you. But I think that is something
that I would say, based on what you said, the
different, especially with the International
Baccalaureate. I will venture to guess that you
received a Western education, which of course
is international for an Indian student. But just
very quickly, I'm wondering about your teachers.
Were they mostly Indian, educated elsewhere,
or were they non -Indian? Did you have teachers
from other parts of the world? So I would say...
Probably about 99 .9 % of my teachers were Indians.
We had some very lovely teachers in my high school,
particularly in the English department, stalwarts
of the language. And I would say I got a balance
when it came to education. I got a Western education,
but deeply rooted in Eastern. Well, what? The
West considers to be the East or Indian values.
Yes. That was something which was very strongly
pushed in my high school. It was a Christian
Catholic high school. I think it was a Catholic
high school. Yes. 160 years old. But of course,
in India had a lot of Hindus, but also. a lot
of Muslims and Christians and Catholics and Parsis.
And there was a lot of religious diversity. And
there's still some teachers I'm in touch with
to date who've really had an impact on me. But
coming back to the point of international teachers,
I did in the IB for one year have a Spanish teacher
who was originally from Spain. And the next year
following... the next day after she left, I had
an Indian teacher for Spanish. And you could
definitely tell the difference when it comes
to knowing certain intricacies of the language.
I guess the difference being between formal communication
and informal, the way the textbooks would teach
you versus the native speakers, how they would
actually converse. And there were certain cultural
aspects about the Spanish... Yeah, there were
certain cultural aspects about the Spanish people
that I got more of an insight into from that
one year of having an international teacher that
I would suppose lacks when you have all Indian
teachers. Coming back to my time in Middlebury,
where I now have... exposure to international
students from across the globe, faculty from
across the globe, programs like RGS that are
exposing me to a variety of different things,
whether it comes to global issues or thinking
in different ways or even solutioning for that
matter. that's where the difference lies that
I had an international education in a very broad
sense that I learned about the world and I learned
about different ways of thinking and different
perspectives and how to write better and all
of that but my global education really only started
here in the US at Middlebury after being immersed
in so many cultures so many languages so many
different kinds of people All right. So let me
think. So if I understand you correctly, you
said that when you were in India, you think you
received an international education because your
mind was broadened from thinking in the Indian
way, if there is such a thing, thinking a certain
way, and then having to think about... other
people's histories or other, yeah, other folks'
histories and maybe something about psychology,
maybe something about art, maybe something about
whatever, you know, different ways of learning
different things. And, you know, it just kind
of expanded your mind to think like, oh, there's
something greater than India or there's something
outside of India that I can learn from. And that
is international. Yes, but then... Of course,
not to say that the Indian curriculum doesn't
teach that. Right. It does. It has a variety
of subjects. But I think the sheer fact that
I jumped between three different curricula gave
me three different ways of thinking and perceiving
things. Yes. Or three different ways of approaching
the same problem. Yeah. And that, according to
me, was the international education. Yeah. And
you probably... I think you jokingly told me
one time that now that you are in the USA or
at Middlebury, you're like a staunch defender
of... Indian food, which is ironic, maybe as
far as your schoolmates, schoolmates, high school
mates might think, because apparently there you
were anything but the defender of Indian food.
You were eating Western food all the time. Something
like that. Yeah, that's really interesting. So
anyway, you seem to have found your identity
by yanking yourself out of that environment and
saying, you know, oh, my goodness, what is the
world doing to my food? beautiful Indian food
and beautiful and delicious. So what's the difference
now in Middlebury? Because you said, well, I'm
exposed to even more ways of seeing and doing
because people come from different parts of the
world. And even Americans in RGS, they come from
different parts of America, which is not trivial.
Not all Americans are the same. Not all parts
of America do things the same way. So it's almost
like it has exploded what you experienced in
India. Does that make it global, though? How
does it make it global is the question. And I
would say with all the international students
coming to Middlebury, and being put in a room
once a week. Of course, you're also put in rooms
during the week because you have classes, but
I'm thinking about RGS. So on Fridays, you know
that you're going to be in a room with people
from other parts of the world. For instance,
what do we have this year? We have Cambodia,
we have Iran, we have Lebanon, we have Kenya,
we have... India, I think. Japan. We have Japan,
yes, Korea, China. I'm sure I'm forgetting some
nationalities, but that's already a vast array,
you know, coming from... Oh, we have... So we
have Latin America, we have Europe, we have Africa,
and we have... What did I say? Asia. So it's,
you know, now you're really, you know, during
that time, you know, it's just like, wow, it's
really, I'm expanding basically what I was experiencing
in India. And the question is, what's happening
to your mind? What's becoming of your worldview?
Like, is this exposure changing the way? You're
looking at the world or you're looking at your
relationship with others or even the way you
think about India back home. Do you think you're
a changed person because, you know, your exposure
has forced you to almost? And so anyway, the
question then is, has this education globalized
the way? You think about everything, which is
different from internationalizing the way you
think about everything. And to answer that, you
would have to say, how have I learned to think
about the world and almost forgetting about those
geographic areas, those political territories?
And I can't answer that for you. you are starting
to forget about that level of organization and
thinking beyond about global issues, for instance,
issues that affect all of us regardless of how
much we contribute to them. Either we suffer
from them or we benefit from them because, you
know, a lot of times people tend to say, well,
with globalization, you know, people suffer.
It's true, but we also benefit a lot from globalization.
Or else you and I wouldn't be able to communicate
right now. And by the way, thanks to the American
person out there, we'll be able to share with
the rest of the world what this exchange is about.
And I think that that's where we're moving beyond
the territory. Yes, we are recording. on campus
in the United States. Yes, you are from India.
Yes, I am from Madagascar. But isn't it amazing
that the three of us are communicating in one
language, which is English. We all have different
accents, but we can still communicate effectively
most of the time. And we are communicating without
being aware of our... national identities or
anything. It's just we are exchanging ideas and
we're sharing ideas with wherever this podcast
is going to end up, which makes it travel, again,
transnationally, like supraterritorially, and
would expose someone somewhere, maybe in rural,
I don't know where, Argentina. to this distinction
between international and global, which they
may not have really thought about and which might
inspire them to engage with the global. You know
what I'm saying? So I guess in that way then,
I think with this very podcast initiative that
you're taking, this is probably the most concrete
way I'm watching you actualizing a global education.
Mostly because you're sharing it and you're using
technology that's going to allow you to spread
ideas over very vast territories rather quickly.
You know, you turn on your whatever it is, you
turn on your computer, your phone, your whatever,
and you can actually listen. So it happens fast.
It happens over vast, you know, like vast distances.
And potentially you're going to have a huge impact.
And that's also where the global comes in, right?
That's it. It's a global idea. It doesn't belong
to one particular nation or it's not like this
is an American education. So the ideas belong
only in the U .S. Exactly. It's almost like it
escapes the studio. It escapes this campus. It
escapes this country to inform people from other
places. Which is extraordinary when you think
about it. So anyway, so the global you or the
globalized you is the podcast creator and curator,
right? And so I guess that, I don't know if that
makes sense to you, but that's the best way I
can think of explaining, you know, going from
an international education to a global one. By
the way, again. It does require some level of
internationalization to be able to engage with
the global. So what would you say constitutes
that difference between going from a national
education to an international one to a global
one, especially in the U .S.? Because it's remarkable
that at colleges and universities, which are
the hubs for... Exchange and interrogation. And
global discourse that within this country, there
exist such institutions, but also most of my
American friends, at least, their first exposure
to the global or to the international was not
in high school, was in college, in fact. So,
of course, potentially that means that, you know,
developing a global mindset is the privilege
of those who can afford it or those who are lucky
enough to be able to take advantage of a higher
education in the United States or, you know,
other places as well. In some ways, yes, but
again, so you were asking me about national versus
international versus global. So I think it's
really, I think you answered that question yourself
because When you receive a national education,
your worldview is limited to the country where
you are learning. And of course, it's super interesting.
It's never irrelevant or anything, but it's limiting
because, you know, like for instance, you know,
if all I knew about was Madagascar, imagine.
how much I would be missing out. In fact, I cannot
even explain anything about, say, Madagascar
history without understanding how foreign governments
and foreign, I don't know, businesses and foreign
regular people interacted with the island to
make its politics, its economy, and its social...
it's a social life what it has become so but
anyway the point though is to say it's limit
it's you know i would be very limited especially
since it's an island that's really disastrous
because you don't even have neighbors to influence
you um but then so you know what in order for
your mind to expand you know you're probably
better off interacting with the international
So you can do it through the curriculum. So if
you're lucky enough to go to a school that offers
that, or you just go to another place. In fact,
I'm remembering in the, was it in the 70s, I
think. So we are definitely doing the Cold War.
There's this competition between the West and
the East blocs. And the East bloc. this incredible
world reputation for STEM education. So it's
like the engineers, the doctors, and all these
guys seem to, you know, be well -trained in basically
the Soviet states. So at that point, there were
programs. Because, of course, what the East was
interested in is developing and expanding its
sphere of influence, just like the West was.
And so they brought people from different parts
of the world to receive an education, usually
in a STEM field. And then these people would
come back. So there was, so good, they escaped
their usual oyster, so to say. They had exposure
to a different way of life and they received,
you know, hopefully a useful education or, yeah,
a useful education. Then they brought that back
to their countries and probably, hopefully made
something of themselves and of their countries.
So that's very much international. So somebody
leaves some, you know, African country, goes
to Romania and comes back and becomes maybe a
doctor. In that African country. So the same
thing with the United States. The United States
has Fulbright, a Fulbright program to bring foreigners
to the United States and also to send Americans
to other countries. That is very international
because it's from country to country. And in
fact, it's facilitated by governments with certain
motivations in mind. That's international, right?
I think the situation is very different when
you enter that international space, but then
exchange with people from different parts of
the world. So it's not just those two countries
or two or three countries interact, people from
different, three countries interacting. It's
like people from multiple. and interacting. And
then what happens after that is what's interesting.
You're not likely to go back to your country
of origin. It's not automatic anymore. Nor are
you going to stay where you're receiving an education.
Suddenly the world is your oyster because you
may have acquired a language skill. So you coming
in, you learned English apparently in India,
and you also speak Hindi, I'm assuming. And here,
I may have heard that you're studying Italian.
Well, I'm here, you might end up in Europe, and
that might be the most natural thing for you
to have happened. Right? So no USA, no India,
and instead... Maybe Italy, because I think they
speak Italian there. So if you speak Italian,
you're probably going to end up there. If you
were studying Spanish, you would end up. Which
I did study in high school. Oh, you did. During
the two years, you did mention that. But anyway,
well, of course, you know, there is studying
and then there's achieving proficiency and fluency.
So those are different. But I do like the fact
that your Spanish teacher taught you. cultural
things, because the language is not just, it's
a tool of communication, but it's, you know,
when you study a language, you don't just study
the language. You actually study that culture
that comes with the language. Anyway, that's
a note. I'm not the expert on this. I'm just
saying language is not just grammar and writing
essays. It's really trying to understand how
other people think. So it's a great gateway,
I think, into globalism. Which is why I'm insisting
on English. Anyway. Let's look a bit more at
you now. Like I mentioned earlier, you've been
educated across three different continents. So
you've clearly got your international bit in.
But also being a professor of political science
and having done research into Africa, you certainly
have... a global perspective on it and not to
mention of course being director of the center
of global affairs um there's definitely a global
aspect to uh your daily life uh at middlebury
how would you say your education has shaped your
perspective and do you think you received an
international education or a global one i think
i received both And here's how I would say it
happened. So, you know, it started in Madagascar.
So I'm thinking about the formative years, you
know. So it's definitely received like a cultural
education, like the foundation in Madagascar.
So family. community, Christianity, and all of
those happened there. And then I started traveling
with my family to Europe, but eventually at age
12, they sent me to boarding school in France.
And what happened there is that, I really don't
know how else to put it, but I received such
a French education that I was turned into a French
person. Okay. But because I had the foundation
back home during my formative years, I had become
a hybrid because, you know, you couldn't get
rid of that. Some people, by the way, reject
that. And I certainly had no interest in rejecting
who I was at the core. But I did absorb a lot.
I mean, you know, you speak like a French person.
You recite French poetry. You dress like one,
and really, you just become, in fact, not just
French, Parisian. So that was internationalization.
But remember, I just said, oh, I had a Malagasy
identity, and I was turned into a French person.
That's very territorial, Madagascar, France.
And then I came here, same thing. You know, an
education, higher education in the USA, a new
cultural experience, trying to figure out Americans.
You know, it still hasn't happened, by the way,
40 years on, but, you know, there's still hope.
And so, like, I suppose the transformation happened
in maybe in academia. where I was now expected
to be an academic. And when you are an academic
in the USA, you are a certain way. There are
expectations as to us. Yet again, I absorbed
something which I hadn't been exposed to before.
And so then coming out of that whole thing, let's
think of it as the travel factory. comes someone
who, quite frankly, does not think in terms of
national identities anymore. Because when you
travel, when you think about what's around you
in different places, you really look for commonality.
Which means that, you know, we are so much alike.
I see how we're different. I see how we speak
different languages. I see how we do things differently.
I see how we eat different foods. Yes, yes, all
of that. But you have an opportunity to actually
think, you know, I see how we are the same, how
we share the same problems or opportunities at
different stages of our lives. And I think that's
when the global happens. when you start building
off of different international experiences and
just start thinking beyond those particular territories.
I don't know how else how to explain it, but
you just think about, oh, how does one, I don't
know, get a job? How does one... face when becoming
a mother for the first time? How does one deal
with being a teacher when students are changing
from one decade to another? Or actually, you
know, it's like every year they seem to change
every year. Like, it's amazing how, you know,
people, someone who's 19 will say, oh, I feel
so old, which of course. Makes you wonder how
you should feel. You know, they feel old. But
the world is changing so quickly that you become
old and obsolete. You have to keep up more than
ever. And I think that's another aspect of globalization.
You have no choice but to keep up. No choice
but to... observe the change, the changes, and
try to adapt to these changes. When you stay
in your place, when you're territorially confined
and culturally confined and all of that, yes,
of course, there's some adaptation going on,
but I think you catch on with the idea later
than someone who's globally minded. Someone who's
globally minded will see the patterns, I think.
than someone who is not used to thinking beyond
the territorial or the cultural. Oh, my goodness.
I have no idea if I'm making sense to you. I
know you are. My monkey is a little agitated,
too. It's tired, too, but it won't take a break.
Perhaps the last question, and perhaps stating
the obvious here, what do you think is... the
benefits of receiving a global education and
what are some ways in which one can try globalizing
one's mindset in little day -to -day things or
how can teachers in high schools start bringing
in if not the international foundations for a
global education small elements of a global education
from the high school level, not just in America
or India or Madagascar, but across the world,
so that, and this is my personal opinion on the
matter, you have a more intelligent breed of
human beings who can see beyond the end of their
own nose and understand and value different perspectives.
Who knows, maybe change the world for the better.
So your question is about what can educators
do to offer their students a global mindset?
I would say, again, I will go back to what I
said earlier, look for commonality. So say, for
instance, there is a student riot somewhere in
Zimbabwe. And so a teacher in Zimbabwe would
utilize technology, and I would say in this case
it's the Internet, to show to their students
that they're not alone in, for instance, whatever
it is that the riot is about or against. And
maybe to help them learn how that particular
conflict was. because you don't want to spend
your youth rioting. It's not fun. It's very destructive,
you know, so you want to get to a place of construction.
And so by showing them, by showing them that
you're not alone, there's something very empathetic
about that. And you open their minds, you open
their eyes, you say, look, you know, so the Japanese,
you know, whoever, whatever may have happened
in Japan. At a particular point, you know, these
students were in the same situation that you
are in, and right there you've expanded their
minds. So the problem of protesting against an
issue is no longer confined to that particular
situation in that particular place on that territory.
It's really just like it's a principle, it's
a method of addressing some kind of grievance,
frustration, or whatever. So I would say bring
the outside, especially now that it's possible.
I know it's not possible for all schools. There
is school and there is school. I'm aware of that.
But where you can, where you have the privilege
to leverage what is on the Internet, bring it
to your classroom. You don't have to travel to
that place to have observed a riot in Japan.
And you can also, you know, you don't have to
tell students to read about it, you know, for
50 pages. If they can, with the 50 pages, see
what it looked like in Japan and how they resolved
potentially the conflict, or if they didn't resolve,
what are the consequences, what's coming? So
again, my point is just to say, I think that,
you know, if you utilize... teaching materials
in ways that are going to encourage your students
to think about the universality of the human
condition, that you've done your job globalizing
their mindsets. So basically to look beyond your
identity, well, my identity as an Indian, yours
as a French Madagascar citizen, Madagascar citizen,
or as an American citizen, or... Anywhere in
the world and to look at things as human beings.
Exactly. That's the bottom line. And think about
fellow human beings. That's really the idea.
Instead of saying, you know, oh, the Japanese
do this, the Indians do that. Yes, of course,
they do all of that. But, you know, beyond that,
what is it that we're talking about here? And,
you know, we're talking about an effort to, you
know, make progress or to survive or to rise
above challenges and all of that. So, yeah, I
would say that's really to the point of really
forgetting where you are and where the others
are. So we're all like converging into this space
of connectivity, social connectivity. That allows
us to think, you know, like, oh, we're young
people concerned about global issues, the future
of our planet. Versus, oh, I'm really concerned
about where India is going. Yeah. Or the fact
that, oh, India is impacted by global warming.
Exactly. My city's temperature is now 40 degrees
Celsius. You got it. To look beyond that. And
I realize for some it might sound trivial that
like, oh, but we're already thinking like this,
but I guess they need to realize the privilege
that they have, the fact that they don't have
to think about it, that they've already received
that international slash global education or
mindset enough that it's not something that they
have to think of inherently as compared to somebody
who needs further exposure to get to that point.
Yes. I realize that the world is bigger than
just one person or a group of people. Exactly.
Exactly. Imagine the empathy that would come
out of that. Imagine how we can rise above suspicion,
mistrust, divisions. Imagine how unifying that
would be. Even though, yes, we are different.
We know that. Like I said, we don't speak English
the same way. But that becomes, it's only a medium
from communicating. We are interested in communicating.
I am not trying to convince you to speak English
like I do. There's no, let alone convince you
to speak Malagasy. It's like, no, like you're
not trying to convince me to learn to speak Hindi.
We utilize our common language to connect. And
hopefully, hopefully make the world a better
place. And kind of live that human experience.
Exactly. On a very equal, you know, on equal
terms. In a collaborative way. Partnership. Not
trying to make you into me. on the basis that
I am better, superior, more enlightened than
you or anything like that. No. No, it's really
because we have to bring everything that makes
us different and unique into thinking about making
a situation better than we found it, for instance.
So make the world better than we found it is,
yeah, that's how I think of it. That's the value
of a global education and a global mindset. Ideally.
To leave the world a little bit better than when
you found it. Yes. By working with others. Collaborating.
Being curious. And I suppose that's the difference
between the international. The international
would be to leave your country or its allies
better than when you found it. And I guess you
could say that's patriotism and nationalism to
a certain extent. But the global is what connects
all human beings. Different from the universal.
Different from the universal. Because with the
universal, there's like, again, like, oh, this
norm emerges somewhere and we should all adopt
it. Sometimes it's a good thing. But there's
still some imposition there. It's almost lazy.
Like, I know better. So therefore, you need to
learn what I know. With the universal? Yeah.
If I say, you know, I don't know what are some
universal norms that we live by now up here.
I don't know. Freedom. Equality. The UN's human
rights. Yes, exactly. Good. Yeah. The Declaration.
The UN Declaration of Human Rights. The thing
is, we have to realize that maybe in some particular
circumstances, it's an imposition. And because
it's an imposition, it might, you know, your
norm might not be seen as legitimate and it won't
be absorbed. So if nothing else, you know, it
will be ineffectual. But sometimes it's actually
damaging too, you know, just to make people...
You know, make people abide by norms that they
never came up with. So universalization, that's,
you know, that's, again, some good and then some
things to really reconsider. Sometimes universalization
is a simple way of imposing, of dominating. Again,
my way is the way. I don't know. That lacks humility.
That lacks curiosity. And I think that it's a
step, you know, it's a barrier to, again, making
things better on the basis of equal partnerships.
Am I making sense to you? Oh, of course. Yes.
Yeah. So I think we need one grand, spectacular
statement from you for the ending, something
that will really hit the audiences hard. A Spider
-Man sort of thing, like with great power comes
great responsibility. I really don't have one,
but I will just say, you know, always look for
what unites us rather than what divides us. Always
look for what equalizes us, then organizes us
into hierarchies. Yeah, that would be. And the
global, if you do it right, will get you there
at a global scale. There you go. There you go.
So that was Professor Nadia Horning on this week's
episode of the Monkey Mind Lab, where we looked
at the question. Is there truly a difference
between an international education and a global
education? Thank you so much for joining us,
Professor Horning. My pleasure. Bye -bye. Bye
-bye.