WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.879 On today's episode of the Monkey Mind Lab, we 00:00:02.879 --> 00:00:05.960 have with us Professor Nadia Horning, a distinguished 00:00:05.960 --> 00:00:09.460 scholar and educator at Middlebury College. As 00:00:09.460 --> 00:00:11.359 a professor of international and global studies, 00:00:11.699 --> 00:00:14.199 she brings with her a wealth of knowledge in 00:00:14.199 --> 00:00:17.579 African politics, environmental governance, and 00:00:17.579 --> 00:00:20.690 leadership development. Born in Madagascar and 00:00:20.690 --> 00:00:23.870 educated across three continents, Professor Horning 00:00:23.870 --> 00:00:26.609 holds degrees from George Mason University and 00:00:26.609 --> 00:00:29.530 a PhD in comparative politics from Cornell University. 00:00:30.050 --> 00:00:33.850 Her research delves into the politics of deforestation 00:00:33.850 --> 00:00:37.130 in Africa, particularly Madagascar, Tanzania, 00:00:37.289 --> 00:00:40.950 and Uganda, as well as the dynamics of African 00:00:40.950 --> 00:00:45.549 brain flight and brain gain. Beyond her academic 00:00:45.549 --> 00:00:48.509 pursuits, she has held leadership roles at Middlebury, 00:00:48.909 --> 00:00:51.509 including directing the African Studies Program 00:00:51.509 --> 00:00:55.310 and Social Entrepreneurship Programs. She is 00:00:55.310 --> 00:00:57.609 currently the Director of the Rohatyn Global 00:00:57.609 --> 00:01:00.710 Scholars Program and Acting Director of the Rohatyn 00:01:00.710 --> 00:01:03.829 Center for Global Affairs. Please join me in 00:01:03.829 --> 00:01:10.090 welcoming Professor Nadia Horning. Welcome, Professor. 00:01:10.510 --> 00:01:15.510 Hello. So, as I'm sure the big question in everybody's 00:01:15.510 --> 00:01:19.680 mind is, Before we even delve into our question 00:01:19.680 --> 00:01:22.980 of the day, what is really the difference between 00:01:22.980 --> 00:01:29.560 international and global? One easy way, I think, 00:01:29.579 --> 00:01:32.680 to distinguish the two terms, keeping in mind 00:01:32.680 --> 00:01:35.420 that they overlap, but they're still distinct. 00:01:36.540 --> 00:01:39.799 One way to think about the international is to 00:01:39.799 --> 00:01:44.400 think in terms of state or country or nation 00:01:44.400 --> 00:01:49.879 state. So international refers to the relationships 00:01:49.879 --> 00:01:54.359 between two countries or several countries, but 00:01:54.359 --> 00:01:59.319 the unit of interaction is the state, the country. 00:02:01.060 --> 00:02:10.719 The global is also about relations, but The relations 00:02:10.719 --> 00:02:16.520 are more about connectivity beyond the geographic 00:02:16.520 --> 00:02:22.539 areas. So what is global is something that transcends 00:02:22.539 --> 00:02:29.659 physical geographic borders and gets you into 00:02:29.659 --> 00:02:34.580 a sphere where people can actually communicate 00:02:34.580 --> 00:02:39.569 and build communities. regardless of where they 00:02:39.569 --> 00:02:43.889 come from or where they live or where they dwell, 00:02:44.090 --> 00:02:49.229 essentially. So that would be the main difference, 00:02:49.310 --> 00:02:51.009 I think, between the two. And then, of course, 00:02:51.030 --> 00:02:53.310 there's much more to say about the two concepts, 00:02:53.370 --> 00:02:58.330 but another thing you can associate with the 00:02:58.330 --> 00:03:02.270 global in addition to connectivity is probably 00:03:02.270 --> 00:03:14.750 flow, People interact, they share ideas, they 00:03:14.750 --> 00:03:20.629 trade goods and services, they exchange viewpoints, 00:03:20.830 --> 00:03:27.330 they show each other that there are different 00:03:27.330 --> 00:03:31.030 ways of doing and different ways of thinking. 00:03:31.979 --> 00:03:35.680 So you dress this way, I dress this way, and 00:03:35.680 --> 00:03:37.259 then, oh, I'm going to take a little bit from 00:03:37.259 --> 00:03:40.099 your way because it's really cool or it's less 00:03:40.099 --> 00:03:42.159 expensive or it's fashionable. It's whatever 00:03:42.159 --> 00:03:47.219 it is. So I would say that the global, I think, 00:03:47.240 --> 00:03:52.080 leads you to think and do in ways that I would 00:03:52.080 --> 00:04:00.219 say hybridized. You just mesh ways of thinking. 00:04:01.340 --> 00:04:04.719 and ways of doing. So it's a blend, it's a hybrid 00:04:04.719 --> 00:04:09.120 of what different parts of the world have to 00:04:09.120 --> 00:04:11.900 offer. Does that make sense? Yeah. So that would 00:04:11.900 --> 00:04:16.300 be, so, yeah. But again, they overlap. You know, 00:04:16.339 --> 00:04:19.680 there is no, it's very difficult because all, 00:04:19.839 --> 00:04:22.259 well, most human beings are organized into nation 00:04:22.259 --> 00:04:26.740 states. You are born into one. It's difficult 00:04:26.740 --> 00:04:30.910 to extricate yourself from that. Which means 00:04:30.910 --> 00:04:35.449 that it requires international relations to arrive 00:04:35.449 --> 00:04:39.750 at a possibility, I think, of globalization and 00:04:39.750 --> 00:04:44.529 supraterritorial connectivity. I don't know if 00:04:44.529 --> 00:04:47.410 my fancy words are confusing you or if they're 00:04:47.410 --> 00:04:50.350 helping you, but that's really, that's the distinction. 00:04:50.569 --> 00:04:53.509 I think that that's really helpful. So in other 00:04:53.509 --> 00:04:56.839 words, one could say that. The international 00:04:56.839 --> 00:05:00.000 is more defined by borders and politics, but 00:05:00.000 --> 00:05:02.939 the global is something that unites us as human 00:05:02.939 --> 00:05:07.040 beings on planet Earth. Beyond borders. Beyond 00:05:07.040 --> 00:05:11.160 borders, yeah. Across and beyond borders. Across 00:05:11.160 --> 00:05:12.939 and beyond borders. Almost like regardless of 00:05:12.939 --> 00:05:18.899 borders. Yeah. Yeah. So we can really, we can 00:05:18.899 --> 00:05:23.379 all be like, oh, yellow collar haters. from around 00:05:23.379 --> 00:05:26.439 the world, and we just really, that's our ideology. 00:05:26.680 --> 00:05:28.879 We hate yellow, and we're going to do all kinds 00:05:28.879 --> 00:05:30.800 of things about it, and the first thing is we're 00:05:30.800 --> 00:05:32.759 going to communicate the ways in which we hate 00:05:32.759 --> 00:05:35.199 the yellow color. That, of course, is a silly 00:05:35.199 --> 00:05:37.779 example, but it's really that. You could be a 00:05:37.779 --> 00:05:42.939 fruit hater, or you can adhere to a religion, 00:05:42.980 --> 00:05:50.399 for instance. Jews, Muslims, Christians, Hindus 00:05:50.399 --> 00:05:52.540 in different parts of the world. They do form 00:05:52.540 --> 00:05:56.079 a community or a family, some will say, but they're 00:05:56.079 --> 00:06:00.000 not confined to where they dwell. They can communicate 00:06:00.000 --> 00:06:05.740 and worship across and beyond borders. Okay. 00:06:05.980 --> 00:06:08.660 So now time for the million -dollar question 00:06:08.660 --> 00:06:11.779 for the week. Is there a difference between a 00:06:11.779 --> 00:06:14.420 global education and an international education? 00:06:15.230 --> 00:06:17.970 Well, I'll let you guess. If international is 00:06:17.970 --> 00:06:21.529 different from global, surely there's a difference 00:06:21.529 --> 00:06:24.209 between international education and global education. 00:06:24.870 --> 00:06:29.310 And how do we get to it? Maybe by asking you 00:06:29.310 --> 00:06:33.410 about your experience. You mentioned that I was 00:06:33.410 --> 00:06:36.550 educated on three continents. So you can see, 00:06:36.629 --> 00:06:39.029 you can hear already, like there's territorial 00:06:39.029 --> 00:06:41.910 definition there because you said three continents. 00:06:42.879 --> 00:06:44.759 But there's also something, I must have become 00:06:44.759 --> 00:06:47.899 something beyond the three continents where I 00:06:47.899 --> 00:06:50.639 was educated. So instead of talking about me, 00:06:50.660 --> 00:06:52.399 I think it would be interesting to talk about 00:06:52.399 --> 00:06:57.100 you and ask you about your educational background. 00:06:58.139 --> 00:07:02.259 So the RGS scholar in me obviously knows that 00:07:02.259 --> 00:07:11.759 this answer has a more... Okay, let me rephrase 00:07:11.759 --> 00:07:16.920 that. Okay, so you are at Middlebury College, 00:07:17.339 --> 00:07:22.279 first year. And I know you come from India because 00:07:22.279 --> 00:07:25.759 you tell me every time you see me. Like it's 00:07:25.759 --> 00:07:31.300 not obvious. So in my mind, I think of you as, 00:07:31.579 --> 00:07:34.420 actually I don't think of you as an international 00:07:34.420 --> 00:07:37.610 student, but if need be, if I need to. you know, 00:07:37.610 --> 00:07:40.329 put you in a category, I would say, oh, up here 00:07:40.329 --> 00:07:43.870 is an international student. That means something. 00:07:44.089 --> 00:07:46.910 It means that, you know, you came from one part 00:07:46.910 --> 00:07:50.110 of the world, in this case, India, and you are 00:07:50.110 --> 00:07:52.470 in the United States, very much international, 00:07:52.829 --> 00:07:56.529 India, United States, and receiving an education, 00:07:56.649 --> 00:08:00.089 you know, as defined in the United States, and 00:08:00.089 --> 00:08:04.290 then quite possibly. having plans to return to 00:08:04.290 --> 00:08:06.709 India. So you take your American education back 00:08:06.709 --> 00:08:08.990 to India and you make a life of it, a wonderful 00:08:08.990 --> 00:08:14.589 life of it. But my guess is that coming to Middlebury 00:08:14.589 --> 00:08:22.009 is not your first exposure to international relations. 00:08:23.189 --> 00:08:26.209 So did you experience international relations, 00:08:26.389 --> 00:08:29.870 for instance, where you were educated? I'm assuming 00:08:29.870 --> 00:08:36.210 it was in India. So yes, going back to my educational 00:08:36.210 --> 00:08:42.629 background, before I became an RGS scholar, I 00:08:42.629 --> 00:08:45.750 would have probably said, oh yeah, there's no 00:08:45.750 --> 00:08:47.210 difference between a global and international 00:08:47.210 --> 00:08:53.210 education. I got that. But in hindsight, I can 00:08:53.210 --> 00:08:56.769 now say that I was very fortunate, keeping in 00:08:56.769 --> 00:08:59.570 mind, I was very fortunate to have received a 00:08:59.570 --> 00:09:03.929 wonderful... international education but my global 00:09:03.929 --> 00:09:08.090 education only started here at middlebury so 00:09:08.090 --> 00:09:12.009 what does that mean exactly um while i didn't 00:09:12.009 --> 00:09:14.470 study on three different continents i did study 00:09:14.470 --> 00:09:18.690 three different boards so i did the icsc which 00:09:18.690 --> 00:09:21.750 is uh the indian national curriculum up till 00:09:21.750 --> 00:09:25.730 the eighth grade i did the igcsc which is the 00:09:25.730 --> 00:09:29.480 british curriculum um in the 9th and 10th. And 00:09:29.480 --> 00:09:31.200 then I did the IB, which is the International 00:09:31.200 --> 00:09:36.059 Baccalaureate Program in the 11th and 12th, which 00:09:36.059 --> 00:09:39.120 is a Swiss program, if I'm not mistaken. Yes, 00:09:39.220 --> 00:09:45.480 Swiss. So I got a very well -rounded education 00:09:45.480 --> 00:09:50.220 when it comes to multiple fronts. If you look 00:09:50.220 --> 00:09:52.940 at it, the ICSE gave me a very strong foundation 00:09:52.940 --> 00:09:57.960 in English and maths, but... The IGCIC gave me 00:09:57.960 --> 00:10:08.340 the wonderful skill of adapting and applying 00:10:08.340 --> 00:10:11.779 my knowledge, what I learned. But the IB is where 00:10:11.779 --> 00:10:14.600 it truly came to the international education, 00:10:14.940 --> 00:10:18.779 where we had a little bit of everything. So it 00:10:18.779 --> 00:10:20.200 was a little bit of the sciences, a little bit 00:10:20.200 --> 00:10:22.299 of the maths, a little bit of arts, a little 00:10:22.299 --> 00:10:24.659 bit of English, a little bit of everything, a 00:10:24.659 --> 00:10:28.860 foreign language. So that was, I guess, my first 00:10:28.860 --> 00:10:33.840 exposure to a liberal arts education at the high 00:10:33.840 --> 00:10:36.620 school level. And because they were international 00:10:36.620 --> 00:10:39.279 curricula, the content being taught in textbooks 00:10:39.279 --> 00:10:44.299 and in the classroom, I suppose, while I wouldn't 00:10:44.299 --> 00:10:48.519 say is free from bias, is definitely not biased 00:10:48.519 --> 00:10:53.960 towards a particular nation. That one might say 00:10:53.960 --> 00:10:58.100 doing history in the Indian curriculum might 00:10:58.100 --> 00:11:03.919 be very pro -Indian narratives or whichever government 00:11:03.919 --> 00:11:06.539 is in power right now, they're very pro -them 00:11:06.539 --> 00:11:13.120 as compared to studying history from a more international 00:11:13.120 --> 00:11:16.500 point of view, from a Western point of view. 00:11:16.580 --> 00:11:21.279 Thank you. Yes. I think that, you know, I was 00:11:21.279 --> 00:11:23.419 not in your school. I don't know how you learned. 00:11:23.480 --> 00:11:26.879 In fact, I'm wondering if you had non -Indian 00:11:26.879 --> 00:11:30.240 teachers teach you. But I think that is something 00:11:30.240 --> 00:11:33.139 that I would say, based on what you said, the 00:11:33.139 --> 00:11:35.100 different, especially with the International 00:11:35.100 --> 00:11:39.309 Baccalaureate. I will venture to guess that you 00:11:39.309 --> 00:11:43.149 received a Western education, which of course 00:11:43.149 --> 00:11:47.289 is international for an Indian student. But just 00:11:47.289 --> 00:11:49.529 very quickly, I'm wondering about your teachers. 00:11:49.610 --> 00:11:54.289 Were they mostly Indian, educated elsewhere, 00:11:54.529 --> 00:11:58.750 or were they non -Indian? Did you have teachers 00:11:58.750 --> 00:12:02.350 from other parts of the world? So I would say... 00:12:03.069 --> 00:12:06.789 Probably about 99 .9 % of my teachers were Indians. 00:12:07.629 --> 00:12:10.690 We had some very lovely teachers in my high school, 00:12:10.830 --> 00:12:15.029 particularly in the English department, stalwarts 00:12:15.029 --> 00:12:22.090 of the language. And I would say I got a balance 00:12:22.090 --> 00:12:26.710 when it came to education. I got a Western education, 00:12:26.889 --> 00:12:31.509 but deeply rooted in Eastern. Well, what? The 00:12:31.509 --> 00:12:33.509 West considers to be the East or Indian values. 00:12:33.830 --> 00:12:37.549 Yes. That was something which was very strongly 00:12:37.549 --> 00:12:40.070 pushed in my high school. It was a Christian 00:12:40.070 --> 00:12:42.769 Catholic high school. I think it was a Catholic 00:12:42.769 --> 00:12:50.009 high school. Yes. 160 years old. But of course, 00:12:50.009 --> 00:12:54.879 in India had a lot of Hindus, but also. a lot 00:12:54.879 --> 00:12:57.879 of Muslims and Christians and Catholics and Parsis. 00:12:57.919 --> 00:13:02.019 And there was a lot of religious diversity. And 00:13:02.019 --> 00:13:04.019 there's still some teachers I'm in touch with 00:13:04.019 --> 00:13:08.259 to date who've really had an impact on me. But 00:13:08.259 --> 00:13:10.220 coming back to the point of international teachers, 00:13:10.659 --> 00:13:16.500 I did in the IB for one year have a Spanish teacher 00:13:16.500 --> 00:13:21.019 who was originally from Spain. And the next year 00:13:21.019 --> 00:13:27.129 following... the next day after she left, I had 00:13:27.129 --> 00:13:31.230 an Indian teacher for Spanish. And you could 00:13:31.230 --> 00:13:33.649 definitely tell the difference when it comes 00:13:33.649 --> 00:13:39.190 to knowing certain intricacies of the language. 00:13:39.990 --> 00:13:42.970 I guess the difference being between formal communication 00:13:42.970 --> 00:13:45.990 and informal, the way the textbooks would teach 00:13:45.990 --> 00:13:48.470 you versus the native speakers, how they would 00:13:48.470 --> 00:13:51.950 actually converse. And there were certain cultural 00:13:51.950 --> 00:13:57.830 aspects about the Spanish... Yeah, there were 00:13:57.830 --> 00:14:00.070 certain cultural aspects about the Spanish people 00:14:00.070 --> 00:14:03.669 that I got more of an insight into from that 00:14:03.669 --> 00:14:08.250 one year of having an international teacher that 00:14:08.250 --> 00:14:13.570 I would suppose lacks when you have all Indian 00:14:13.570 --> 00:14:17.070 teachers. Coming back to my time in Middlebury, 00:14:17.250 --> 00:14:22.450 where I now have... exposure to international 00:14:22.450 --> 00:14:25.769 students from across the globe, faculty from 00:14:25.769 --> 00:14:29.409 across the globe, programs like RGS that are 00:14:29.409 --> 00:14:34.750 exposing me to a variety of different things, 00:14:34.909 --> 00:14:39.909 whether it comes to global issues or thinking 00:14:39.909 --> 00:14:42.570 in different ways or even solutioning for that 00:14:42.570 --> 00:14:48.480 matter. that's where the difference lies that 00:14:48.480 --> 00:14:51.059 I had an international education in a very broad 00:14:51.059 --> 00:14:53.820 sense that I learned about the world and I learned 00:14:53.820 --> 00:14:55.820 about different ways of thinking and different 00:14:55.820 --> 00:14:57.720 perspectives and how to write better and all 00:14:57.720 --> 00:15:01.559 of that but my global education really only started 00:15:01.559 --> 00:15:05.960 here in the US at Middlebury after being immersed 00:15:05.960 --> 00:15:11.779 in so many cultures so many languages so many 00:15:11.779 --> 00:15:15.179 different kinds of people All right. So let me 00:15:15.179 --> 00:15:18.419 think. So if I understand you correctly, you 00:15:18.419 --> 00:15:22.000 said that when you were in India, you think you 00:15:22.000 --> 00:15:25.159 received an international education because your 00:15:25.159 --> 00:15:30.059 mind was broadened from thinking in the Indian 00:15:30.059 --> 00:15:33.220 way, if there is such a thing, thinking a certain 00:15:33.220 --> 00:15:37.899 way, and then having to think about... other 00:15:37.899 --> 00:15:40.779 people's histories or other, yeah, other folks' 00:15:40.919 --> 00:15:43.620 histories and maybe something about psychology, 00:15:43.879 --> 00:15:46.519 maybe something about art, maybe something about 00:15:46.519 --> 00:15:49.960 whatever, you know, different ways of learning 00:15:49.960 --> 00:15:51.799 different things. And, you know, it just kind 00:15:51.799 --> 00:15:54.679 of expanded your mind to think like, oh, there's 00:15:54.679 --> 00:15:58.600 something greater than India or there's something 00:15:58.600 --> 00:16:02.519 outside of India that I can learn from. And that 00:16:02.519 --> 00:16:06.360 is international. Yes, but then... Of course, 00:16:06.379 --> 00:16:08.360 not to say that the Indian curriculum doesn't 00:16:08.360 --> 00:16:11.340 teach that. Right. It does. It has a variety 00:16:11.340 --> 00:16:14.000 of subjects. But I think the sheer fact that 00:16:14.000 --> 00:16:16.919 I jumped between three different curricula gave 00:16:16.919 --> 00:16:19.700 me three different ways of thinking and perceiving 00:16:19.700 --> 00:16:22.620 things. Yes. Or three different ways of approaching 00:16:22.620 --> 00:16:25.799 the same problem. Yeah. And that, according to 00:16:25.799 --> 00:16:31.340 me, was the international education. Yeah. And 00:16:31.340 --> 00:16:36.080 you probably... I think you jokingly told me 00:16:36.080 --> 00:16:39.419 one time that now that you are in the USA or 00:16:39.419 --> 00:16:41.940 at Middlebury, you're like a staunch defender 00:16:41.940 --> 00:16:47.809 of... Indian food, which is ironic, maybe as 00:16:47.809 --> 00:16:50.750 far as your schoolmates, schoolmates, high school 00:16:50.750 --> 00:16:53.090 mates might think, because apparently there you 00:16:53.090 --> 00:16:55.250 were anything but the defender of Indian food. 00:16:55.330 --> 00:16:57.710 You were eating Western food all the time. Something 00:16:57.710 --> 00:17:01.850 like that. Yeah, that's really interesting. So 00:17:01.850 --> 00:17:04.730 anyway, you seem to have found your identity 00:17:04.730 --> 00:17:08.150 by yanking yourself out of that environment and 00:17:08.150 --> 00:17:10.190 saying, you know, oh, my goodness, what is the 00:17:10.190 --> 00:17:14.390 world doing to my food? beautiful Indian food 00:17:14.390 --> 00:17:18.349 and beautiful and delicious. So what's the difference 00:17:18.349 --> 00:17:23.190 now in Middlebury? Because you said, well, I'm 00:17:23.190 --> 00:17:28.269 exposed to even more ways of seeing and doing 00:17:28.269 --> 00:17:30.430 because people come from different parts of the 00:17:30.430 --> 00:17:32.990 world. And even Americans in RGS, they come from 00:17:32.990 --> 00:17:35.910 different parts of America, which is not trivial. 00:17:36.839 --> 00:17:39.339 Not all Americans are the same. Not all parts 00:17:39.339 --> 00:17:43.380 of America do things the same way. So it's almost 00:17:43.380 --> 00:17:48.240 like it has exploded what you experienced in 00:17:48.240 --> 00:17:52.160 India. Does that make it global, though? How 00:17:52.160 --> 00:17:56.279 does it make it global is the question. And I 00:17:56.279 --> 00:18:04.619 would say with all the international students 00:18:04.619 --> 00:18:08.180 coming to Middlebury, and being put in a room 00:18:08.180 --> 00:18:12.119 once a week. Of course, you're also put in rooms 00:18:12.119 --> 00:18:14.220 during the week because you have classes, but 00:18:14.220 --> 00:18:17.380 I'm thinking about RGS. So on Fridays, you know 00:18:17.380 --> 00:18:21.839 that you're going to be in a room with people 00:18:21.839 --> 00:18:24.759 from other parts of the world. For instance, 00:18:25.000 --> 00:18:28.980 what do we have this year? We have Cambodia, 00:18:29.420 --> 00:18:33.559 we have Iran, we have Lebanon, we have Kenya, 00:18:33.819 --> 00:18:41.869 we have... India, I think. Japan. We have Japan, 00:18:42.049 --> 00:18:47.809 yes, Korea, China. I'm sure I'm forgetting some 00:18:47.809 --> 00:18:51.569 nationalities, but that's already a vast array, 00:18:51.769 --> 00:18:56.089 you know, coming from... Oh, we have... So we 00:18:56.089 --> 00:18:59.069 have Latin America, we have Europe, we have Africa, 00:18:59.230 --> 00:19:08.369 and we have... What did I say? Asia. So it's, 00:19:08.369 --> 00:19:11.490 you know, now you're really, you know, during 00:19:11.490 --> 00:19:14.609 that time, you know, it's just like, wow, it's 00:19:14.609 --> 00:19:18.750 really, I'm expanding basically what I was experiencing 00:19:18.750 --> 00:19:23.809 in India. And the question is, what's happening 00:19:23.809 --> 00:19:27.630 to your mind? What's becoming of your worldview? 00:19:28.390 --> 00:19:35.079 Like, is this exposure changing the way? You're 00:19:35.079 --> 00:19:38.220 looking at the world or you're looking at your 00:19:38.220 --> 00:19:41.900 relationship with others or even the way you 00:19:41.900 --> 00:19:46.140 think about India back home. Do you think you're 00:19:46.140 --> 00:19:49.359 a changed person because, you know, your exposure 00:19:49.359 --> 00:19:55.420 has forced you to almost? And so anyway, the 00:19:55.420 --> 00:20:00.920 question then is, has this education globalized 00:20:00.920 --> 00:20:05.019 the way? You think about everything, which is 00:20:05.019 --> 00:20:08.460 different from internationalizing the way you 00:20:08.460 --> 00:20:12.099 think about everything. And to answer that, you 00:20:12.099 --> 00:20:16.619 would have to say, how have I learned to think 00:20:16.619 --> 00:20:22.880 about the world and almost forgetting about those 00:20:22.880 --> 00:20:26.240 geographic areas, those political territories? 00:20:27.420 --> 00:20:33.279 And I can't answer that for you. you are starting 00:20:33.279 --> 00:20:39.759 to forget about that level of organization and 00:20:39.759 --> 00:20:43.859 thinking beyond about global issues, for instance, 00:20:44.039 --> 00:20:48.700 issues that affect all of us regardless of how 00:20:48.700 --> 00:20:53.200 much we contribute to them. Either we suffer 00:20:53.200 --> 00:20:55.740 from them or we benefit from them because, you 00:20:55.740 --> 00:20:57.599 know, a lot of times people tend to say, well, 00:20:57.680 --> 00:20:59.680 with globalization, you know, people suffer. 00:21:00.440 --> 00:21:03.279 It's true, but we also benefit a lot from globalization. 00:21:04.200 --> 00:21:06.779 Or else you and I wouldn't be able to communicate 00:21:06.779 --> 00:21:10.559 right now. And by the way, thanks to the American 00:21:10.559 --> 00:21:14.140 person out there, we'll be able to share with 00:21:14.140 --> 00:21:16.859 the rest of the world what this exchange is about. 00:21:17.460 --> 00:21:22.279 And I think that that's where we're moving beyond 00:21:22.279 --> 00:21:27.589 the territory. Yes, we are recording. on campus 00:21:27.589 --> 00:21:30.930 in the United States. Yes, you are from India. 00:21:31.049 --> 00:21:34.309 Yes, I am from Madagascar. But isn't it amazing 00:21:34.309 --> 00:21:37.769 that the three of us are communicating in one 00:21:37.769 --> 00:21:41.630 language, which is English. We all have different 00:21:41.630 --> 00:21:44.490 accents, but we can still communicate effectively 00:21:44.490 --> 00:21:49.650 most of the time. And we are communicating without 00:21:49.650 --> 00:21:53.950 being aware of our... national identities or 00:21:53.950 --> 00:21:59.490 anything. It's just we are exchanging ideas and 00:21:59.490 --> 00:22:02.910 we're sharing ideas with wherever this podcast 00:22:02.910 --> 00:22:07.869 is going to end up, which makes it travel, again, 00:22:08.009 --> 00:22:12.009 transnationally, like supraterritorially, and 00:22:12.009 --> 00:22:16.269 would expose someone somewhere, maybe in rural, 00:22:16.509 --> 00:22:22.329 I don't know where, Argentina. to this distinction 00:22:22.329 --> 00:22:24.670 between international and global, which they 00:22:24.670 --> 00:22:27.130 may not have really thought about and which might 00:22:27.130 --> 00:22:30.509 inspire them to engage with the global. You know 00:22:30.509 --> 00:22:34.309 what I'm saying? So I guess in that way then, 00:22:34.410 --> 00:22:39.990 I think with this very podcast initiative that 00:22:39.990 --> 00:22:42.390 you're taking, this is probably the most concrete 00:22:42.390 --> 00:22:47.630 way I'm watching you actualizing a global education. 00:22:48.589 --> 00:22:50.670 Mostly because you're sharing it and you're using 00:22:50.670 --> 00:22:56.309 technology that's going to allow you to spread 00:22:56.309 --> 00:23:02.950 ideas over very vast territories rather quickly. 00:23:04.009 --> 00:23:06.349 You know, you turn on your whatever it is, you 00:23:06.349 --> 00:23:08.170 turn on your computer, your phone, your whatever, 00:23:08.210 --> 00:23:11.589 and you can actually listen. So it happens fast. 00:23:11.589 --> 00:23:14.730 It happens over vast, you know, like vast distances. 00:23:15.880 --> 00:23:19.539 And potentially you're going to have a huge impact. 00:23:19.880 --> 00:23:21.900 And that's also where the global comes in, right? 00:23:21.960 --> 00:23:24.740 That's it. It's a global idea. It doesn't belong 00:23:24.740 --> 00:23:27.720 to one particular nation or it's not like this 00:23:27.720 --> 00:23:30.019 is an American education. So the ideas belong 00:23:30.019 --> 00:23:33.700 only in the U .S. Exactly. It's almost like it 00:23:33.700 --> 00:23:37.519 escapes the studio. It escapes this campus. It 00:23:37.519 --> 00:23:42.079 escapes this country to inform people from other 00:23:42.079 --> 00:23:45.509 places. Which is extraordinary when you think 00:23:45.509 --> 00:23:50.869 about it. So anyway, so the global you or the 00:23:50.869 --> 00:23:56.069 globalized you is the podcast creator and curator, 00:23:56.410 --> 00:24:00.369 right? And so I guess that, I don't know if that 00:24:00.369 --> 00:24:02.710 makes sense to you, but that's the best way I 00:24:02.710 --> 00:24:05.089 can think of explaining, you know, going from 00:24:05.089 --> 00:24:09.289 an international education to a global one. By 00:24:09.289 --> 00:24:12.849 the way, again. It does require some level of 00:24:12.849 --> 00:24:16.630 internationalization to be able to engage with 00:24:16.630 --> 00:24:20.670 the global. So what would you say constitutes 00:24:20.670 --> 00:24:24.349 that difference between going from a national 00:24:24.349 --> 00:24:28.069 education to an international one to a global 00:24:28.069 --> 00:24:32.769 one, especially in the U .S.? Because it's remarkable 00:24:32.769 --> 00:24:37.089 that at colleges and universities, which are 00:24:37.089 --> 00:24:42.099 the hubs for... Exchange and interrogation. And 00:24:42.099 --> 00:24:48.380 global discourse that within this country, there 00:24:48.380 --> 00:24:53.420 exist such institutions, but also most of my 00:24:53.420 --> 00:24:55.880 American friends, at least, their first exposure 00:24:55.880 --> 00:24:58.839 to the global or to the international was not 00:24:58.839 --> 00:25:05.019 in high school, was in college, in fact. So, 00:25:05.119 --> 00:25:08.019 of course, potentially that means that, you know, 00:25:08.319 --> 00:25:10.779 developing a global mindset is the privilege 00:25:10.779 --> 00:25:13.359 of those who can afford it or those who are lucky 00:25:13.359 --> 00:25:17.859 enough to be able to take advantage of a higher 00:25:17.859 --> 00:25:20.720 education in the United States or, you know, 00:25:20.740 --> 00:25:24.940 other places as well. In some ways, yes, but 00:25:24.940 --> 00:25:29.099 again, so you were asking me about national versus 00:25:29.099 --> 00:25:33.140 international versus global. So I think it's 00:25:33.140 --> 00:25:35.759 really, I think you answered that question yourself 00:25:35.759 --> 00:25:39.339 because When you receive a national education, 00:25:39.839 --> 00:25:48.140 your worldview is limited to the country where 00:25:48.140 --> 00:25:54.420 you are learning. And of course, it's super interesting. 00:25:54.579 --> 00:25:57.579 It's never irrelevant or anything, but it's limiting 00:25:57.579 --> 00:25:59.759 because, you know, like for instance, you know, 00:25:59.759 --> 00:26:02.400 if all I knew about was Madagascar, imagine. 00:26:03.069 --> 00:26:05.869 how much I would be missing out. In fact, I cannot 00:26:05.869 --> 00:26:08.549 even explain anything about, say, Madagascar 00:26:08.549 --> 00:26:14.130 history without understanding how foreign governments 00:26:14.130 --> 00:26:17.509 and foreign, I don't know, businesses and foreign 00:26:17.509 --> 00:26:22.009 regular people interacted with the island to 00:26:22.009 --> 00:26:27.750 make its politics, its economy, and its social... 00:26:30.670 --> 00:26:33.910 it's a social life what it has become so but 00:26:33.910 --> 00:26:36.849 anyway the point though is to say it's limit 00:26:36.849 --> 00:26:39.009 it's you know i would be very limited especially 00:26:39.009 --> 00:26:41.089 since it's an island that's really disastrous 00:26:41.089 --> 00:26:43.549 because you don't even have neighbors to influence 00:26:43.549 --> 00:26:49.150 you um but then so you know what in order for 00:26:49.150 --> 00:26:52.289 your mind to expand you know you're probably 00:26:52.289 --> 00:26:54.789 better off interacting with the international 00:26:55.519 --> 00:26:57.980 So you can do it through the curriculum. So if 00:26:57.980 --> 00:27:00.200 you're lucky enough to go to a school that offers 00:27:00.200 --> 00:27:04.920 that, or you just go to another place. In fact, 00:27:04.920 --> 00:27:08.660 I'm remembering in the, was it in the 70s, I 00:27:08.660 --> 00:27:13.140 think. So we are definitely doing the Cold War. 00:27:14.420 --> 00:27:16.700 There's this competition between the West and 00:27:16.700 --> 00:27:24.539 the East blocs. And the East bloc. this incredible 00:27:24.539 --> 00:27:31.380 world reputation for STEM education. So it's 00:27:31.380 --> 00:27:34.039 like the engineers, the doctors, and all these 00:27:34.039 --> 00:27:39.420 guys seem to, you know, be well -trained in basically 00:27:39.420 --> 00:27:44.039 the Soviet states. So at that point, there were 00:27:44.039 --> 00:27:47.900 programs. Because, of course, what the East was 00:27:47.900 --> 00:27:50.720 interested in is developing and expanding its 00:27:50.720 --> 00:27:53.019 sphere of influence, just like the West was. 00:27:53.420 --> 00:27:56.420 And so they brought people from different parts 00:27:56.420 --> 00:27:59.579 of the world to receive an education, usually 00:27:59.579 --> 00:28:03.519 in a STEM field. And then these people would 00:28:03.519 --> 00:28:08.319 come back. So there was, so good, they escaped 00:28:08.319 --> 00:28:13.200 their usual oyster, so to say. They had exposure 00:28:13.200 --> 00:28:15.880 to a different way of life and they received, 00:28:15.900 --> 00:28:20.099 you know, hopefully a useful education or, yeah, 00:28:20.200 --> 00:28:22.339 a useful education. Then they brought that back 00:28:22.339 --> 00:28:25.259 to their countries and probably, hopefully made 00:28:25.259 --> 00:28:28.220 something of themselves and of their countries. 00:28:28.319 --> 00:28:32.339 So that's very much international. So somebody 00:28:32.339 --> 00:28:35.160 leaves some, you know, African country, goes 00:28:35.160 --> 00:28:38.059 to Romania and comes back and becomes maybe a 00:28:38.059 --> 00:28:45.529 doctor. In that African country. So the same 00:28:45.529 --> 00:28:48.369 thing with the United States. The United States 00:28:48.369 --> 00:28:53.150 has Fulbright, a Fulbright program to bring foreigners 00:28:53.150 --> 00:28:56.509 to the United States and also to send Americans 00:28:56.509 --> 00:29:01.009 to other countries. That is very international 00:29:01.009 --> 00:29:03.589 because it's from country to country. And in 00:29:03.589 --> 00:29:06.190 fact, it's facilitated by governments with certain 00:29:06.190 --> 00:29:11.059 motivations in mind. That's international, right? 00:29:11.759 --> 00:29:15.660 I think the situation is very different when 00:29:15.660 --> 00:29:21.759 you enter that international space, but then 00:29:21.759 --> 00:29:27.279 exchange with people from different parts of 00:29:27.279 --> 00:29:29.519 the world. So it's not just those two countries 00:29:29.519 --> 00:29:32.660 or two or three countries interact, people from 00:29:32.660 --> 00:29:34.759 different, three countries interacting. It's 00:29:34.759 --> 00:29:41.579 like people from multiple. and interacting. And 00:29:41.579 --> 00:29:43.920 then what happens after that is what's interesting. 00:29:44.160 --> 00:29:47.339 You're not likely to go back to your country 00:29:47.339 --> 00:29:50.920 of origin. It's not automatic anymore. Nor are 00:29:50.920 --> 00:29:53.319 you going to stay where you're receiving an education. 00:29:53.720 --> 00:29:59.200 Suddenly the world is your oyster because you 00:29:59.200 --> 00:30:02.900 may have acquired a language skill. So you coming 00:30:02.900 --> 00:30:05.680 in, you learned English apparently in India, 00:30:05.779 --> 00:30:10.240 and you also speak Hindi, I'm assuming. And here, 00:30:10.400 --> 00:30:12.619 I may have heard that you're studying Italian. 00:30:13.599 --> 00:30:16.279 Well, I'm here, you might end up in Europe, and 00:30:16.279 --> 00:30:18.720 that might be the most natural thing for you 00:30:18.720 --> 00:30:24.660 to have happened. Right? So no USA, no India, 00:30:24.819 --> 00:30:28.259 and instead... Maybe Italy, because I think they 00:30:28.259 --> 00:30:31.000 speak Italian there. So if you speak Italian, 00:30:31.240 --> 00:30:33.420 you're probably going to end up there. If you 00:30:33.420 --> 00:30:36.380 were studying Spanish, you would end up. Which 00:30:36.380 --> 00:30:39.000 I did study in high school. Oh, you did. During 00:30:39.000 --> 00:30:41.579 the two years, you did mention that. But anyway, 00:30:41.839 --> 00:30:43.779 well, of course, you know, there is studying 00:30:43.779 --> 00:30:46.539 and then there's achieving proficiency and fluency. 00:30:46.599 --> 00:30:50.119 So those are different. But I do like the fact 00:30:50.119 --> 00:30:53.759 that your Spanish teacher taught you. cultural 00:30:53.759 --> 00:30:57.240 things, because the language is not just, it's 00:30:57.240 --> 00:31:00.440 a tool of communication, but it's, you know, 00:31:00.440 --> 00:31:02.680 when you study a language, you don't just study 00:31:02.680 --> 00:31:06.059 the language. You actually study that culture 00:31:06.059 --> 00:31:08.220 that comes with the language. Anyway, that's 00:31:08.220 --> 00:31:10.700 a note. I'm not the expert on this. I'm just 00:31:10.700 --> 00:31:15.160 saying language is not just grammar and writing 00:31:15.160 --> 00:31:17.400 essays. It's really trying to understand how 00:31:17.400 --> 00:31:19.500 other people think. So it's a great gateway, 00:31:19.599 --> 00:31:23.319 I think, into globalism. Which is why I'm insisting 00:31:23.319 --> 00:31:28.220 on English. Anyway. Let's look a bit more at 00:31:28.220 --> 00:31:32.720 you now. Like I mentioned earlier, you've been 00:31:32.720 --> 00:31:36.079 educated across three different continents. So 00:31:36.079 --> 00:31:38.059 you've clearly got your international bit in. 00:31:38.180 --> 00:31:41.740 But also being a professor of political science 00:31:41.740 --> 00:31:46.779 and having done research into Africa, you certainly 00:31:46.779 --> 00:31:52.410 have... a global perspective on it and not to 00:31:52.410 --> 00:31:54.509 mention of course being director of the center 00:31:54.509 --> 00:31:57.950 of global affairs um there's definitely a global 00:31:57.950 --> 00:32:02.910 aspect to uh your daily life uh at middlebury 00:32:02.910 --> 00:32:06.950 how would you say your education has shaped your 00:32:06.950 --> 00:32:09.809 perspective and do you think you received an 00:32:09.809 --> 00:32:14.769 international education or a global one i think 00:32:14.769 --> 00:32:18.839 i received both And here's how I would say it 00:32:18.839 --> 00:32:23.880 happened. So, you know, it started in Madagascar. 00:32:23.940 --> 00:32:27.279 So I'm thinking about the formative years, you 00:32:27.279 --> 00:32:31.960 know. So it's definitely received like a cultural 00:32:31.960 --> 00:32:35.660 education, like the foundation in Madagascar. 00:32:35.839 --> 00:32:41.509 So family. community, Christianity, and all of 00:32:41.509 --> 00:32:45.990 those happened there. And then I started traveling 00:32:45.990 --> 00:32:50.150 with my family to Europe, but eventually at age 00:32:50.150 --> 00:32:54.789 12, they sent me to boarding school in France. 00:32:54.930 --> 00:32:59.269 And what happened there is that, I really don't 00:32:59.269 --> 00:33:04.170 know how else to put it, but I received such 00:33:04.170 --> 00:33:10.650 a French education that I was turned into a French 00:33:10.650 --> 00:33:14.950 person. Okay. But because I had the foundation 00:33:14.950 --> 00:33:18.789 back home during my formative years, I had become 00:33:18.789 --> 00:33:21.250 a hybrid because, you know, you couldn't get 00:33:21.250 --> 00:33:23.190 rid of that. Some people, by the way, reject 00:33:23.190 --> 00:33:26.009 that. And I certainly had no interest in rejecting 00:33:26.009 --> 00:33:31.730 who I was at the core. But I did absorb a lot. 00:33:31.829 --> 00:33:34.289 I mean, you know, you speak like a French person. 00:33:34.329 --> 00:33:38.299 You recite French poetry. You dress like one, 00:33:38.359 --> 00:33:40.279 and really, you just become, in fact, not just 00:33:40.279 --> 00:33:46.940 French, Parisian. So that was internationalization. 00:33:47.299 --> 00:33:51.900 But remember, I just said, oh, I had a Malagasy 00:33:51.900 --> 00:33:54.420 identity, and I was turned into a French person. 00:33:54.500 --> 00:33:58.420 That's very territorial, Madagascar, France. 00:34:00.480 --> 00:34:05.480 And then I came here, same thing. You know, an 00:34:05.480 --> 00:34:10.119 education, higher education in the USA, a new 00:34:10.119 --> 00:34:13.940 cultural experience, trying to figure out Americans. 00:34:14.000 --> 00:34:16.019 You know, it still hasn't happened, by the way, 00:34:16.039 --> 00:34:19.199 40 years on, but, you know, there's still hope. 00:34:19.579 --> 00:34:26.920 And so, like, I suppose the transformation happened 00:34:26.920 --> 00:34:31.360 in maybe in academia. where I was now expected 00:34:31.360 --> 00:34:35.280 to be an academic. And when you are an academic 00:34:35.280 --> 00:34:39.599 in the USA, you are a certain way. There are 00:34:39.599 --> 00:34:43.239 expectations as to us. Yet again, I absorbed 00:34:43.239 --> 00:34:47.320 something which I hadn't been exposed to before. 00:34:49.059 --> 00:34:52.099 And so then coming out of that whole thing, let's 00:34:52.099 --> 00:34:57.980 think of it as the travel factory. comes someone 00:34:57.980 --> 00:35:01.380 who, quite frankly, does not think in terms of 00:35:01.380 --> 00:35:08.019 national identities anymore. Because when you 00:35:08.019 --> 00:35:12.059 travel, when you think about what's around you 00:35:12.059 --> 00:35:16.340 in different places, you really look for commonality. 00:35:17.840 --> 00:35:20.820 Which means that, you know, we are so much alike. 00:35:20.920 --> 00:35:24.119 I see how we're different. I see how we speak 00:35:24.119 --> 00:35:26.559 different languages. I see how we do things differently. 00:35:26.659 --> 00:35:29.539 I see how we eat different foods. Yes, yes, all 00:35:29.539 --> 00:35:33.780 of that. But you have an opportunity to actually 00:35:33.780 --> 00:35:36.960 think, you know, I see how we are the same, how 00:35:36.960 --> 00:35:41.519 we share the same problems or opportunities at 00:35:41.519 --> 00:35:45.599 different stages of our lives. And I think that's 00:35:45.599 --> 00:35:49.039 when the global happens. when you start building 00:35:49.039 --> 00:35:55.019 off of different international experiences and 00:35:55.019 --> 00:36:02.780 just start thinking beyond those particular territories. 00:36:02.800 --> 00:36:05.500 I don't know how else how to explain it, but 00:36:05.500 --> 00:36:11.019 you just think about, oh, how does one, I don't 00:36:11.019 --> 00:36:15.440 know, get a job? How does one... face when becoming 00:36:15.440 --> 00:36:20.360 a mother for the first time? How does one deal 00:36:20.360 --> 00:36:25.599 with being a teacher when students are changing 00:36:25.599 --> 00:36:28.659 from one decade to another? Or actually, you 00:36:28.659 --> 00:36:31.619 know, it's like every year they seem to change 00:36:31.619 --> 00:36:34.940 every year. Like, it's amazing how, you know, 00:36:35.019 --> 00:36:38.460 people, someone who's 19 will say, oh, I feel 00:36:38.460 --> 00:36:41.469 so old, which of course. Makes you wonder how 00:36:41.469 --> 00:36:43.750 you should feel. You know, they feel old. But 00:36:43.750 --> 00:36:49.969 the world is changing so quickly that you become 00:36:49.969 --> 00:36:52.550 old and obsolete. You have to keep up more than 00:36:52.550 --> 00:36:55.030 ever. And I think that's another aspect of globalization. 00:36:55.309 --> 00:37:00.170 You have no choice but to keep up. No choice 00:37:00.170 --> 00:37:04.469 but to... observe the change, the changes, and 00:37:04.469 --> 00:37:07.429 try to adapt to these changes. When you stay 00:37:07.429 --> 00:37:11.030 in your place, when you're territorially confined 00:37:11.030 --> 00:37:14.349 and culturally confined and all of that, yes, 00:37:14.389 --> 00:37:16.449 of course, there's some adaptation going on, 00:37:16.530 --> 00:37:21.230 but I think you catch on with the idea later 00:37:21.230 --> 00:37:24.690 than someone who's globally minded. Someone who's 00:37:24.690 --> 00:37:27.289 globally minded will see the patterns, I think. 00:37:28.889 --> 00:37:32.289 than someone who is not used to thinking beyond 00:37:32.289 --> 00:37:37.690 the territorial or the cultural. Oh, my goodness. 00:37:38.090 --> 00:37:40.869 I have no idea if I'm making sense to you. I 00:37:40.869 --> 00:37:44.070 know you are. My monkey is a little agitated, 00:37:44.070 --> 00:37:46.949 too. It's tired, too, but it won't take a break. 00:37:49.630 --> 00:37:54.389 Perhaps the last question, and perhaps stating 00:37:54.389 --> 00:37:57.849 the obvious here, what do you think is... the 00:37:57.849 --> 00:38:00.730 benefits of receiving a global education and 00:38:00.730 --> 00:38:05.030 what are some ways in which one can try globalizing 00:38:05.030 --> 00:38:11.409 one's mindset in little day -to -day things or 00:38:11.409 --> 00:38:16.190 how can teachers in high schools start bringing 00:38:16.190 --> 00:38:19.309 in if not the international foundations for a 00:38:19.309 --> 00:38:25.219 global education small elements of a global education 00:38:25.219 --> 00:38:28.860 from the high school level, not just in America 00:38:28.860 --> 00:38:31.440 or India or Madagascar, but across the world, 00:38:31.539 --> 00:38:35.099 so that, and this is my personal opinion on the 00:38:35.099 --> 00:38:41.500 matter, you have a more intelligent breed of 00:38:41.500 --> 00:38:46.820 human beings who can see beyond the end of their 00:38:46.820 --> 00:38:51.320 own nose and understand and value different perspectives. 00:38:52.909 --> 00:38:55.630 Who knows, maybe change the world for the better. 00:38:56.690 --> 00:38:59.869 So your question is about what can educators 00:38:59.869 --> 00:39:04.110 do to offer their students a global mindset? 00:39:05.110 --> 00:39:09.530 I would say, again, I will go back to what I 00:39:09.530 --> 00:39:13.969 said earlier, look for commonality. So say, for 00:39:13.969 --> 00:39:20.389 instance, there is a student riot somewhere in 00:39:20.389 --> 00:39:27.059 Zimbabwe. And so a teacher in Zimbabwe would 00:39:27.059 --> 00:39:30.860 utilize technology, and I would say in this case 00:39:30.860 --> 00:39:34.760 it's the Internet, to show to their students 00:39:34.760 --> 00:39:39.519 that they're not alone in, for instance, whatever 00:39:39.519 --> 00:39:44.539 it is that the riot is about or against. And 00:39:44.539 --> 00:39:49.159 maybe to help them learn how that particular 00:39:49.159 --> 00:39:54.150 conflict was. because you don't want to spend 00:39:54.150 --> 00:39:57.889 your youth rioting. It's not fun. It's very destructive, 00:39:58.170 --> 00:40:00.409 you know, so you want to get to a place of construction. 00:40:01.530 --> 00:40:04.710 And so by showing them, by showing them that 00:40:04.710 --> 00:40:07.090 you're not alone, there's something very empathetic 00:40:07.090 --> 00:40:11.550 about that. And you open their minds, you open 00:40:11.550 --> 00:40:14.150 their eyes, you say, look, you know, so the Japanese, 00:40:14.250 --> 00:40:16.489 you know, whoever, whatever may have happened 00:40:16.489 --> 00:40:19.690 in Japan. At a particular point, you know, these 00:40:19.690 --> 00:40:22.449 students were in the same situation that you 00:40:22.449 --> 00:40:27.250 are in, and right there you've expanded their 00:40:27.250 --> 00:40:31.349 minds. So the problem of protesting against an 00:40:31.349 --> 00:40:34.909 issue is no longer confined to that particular 00:40:34.909 --> 00:40:38.030 situation in that particular place on that territory. 00:40:38.449 --> 00:40:41.150 It's really just like it's a principle, it's 00:40:41.150 --> 00:40:44.250 a method of addressing some kind of grievance, 00:40:44.250 --> 00:40:53.019 frustration, or whatever. So I would say bring 00:40:53.019 --> 00:40:55.920 the outside, especially now that it's possible. 00:40:56.039 --> 00:40:58.360 I know it's not possible for all schools. There 00:40:58.360 --> 00:41:00.760 is school and there is school. I'm aware of that. 00:41:00.840 --> 00:41:02.920 But where you can, where you have the privilege 00:41:02.920 --> 00:41:07.440 to leverage what is on the Internet, bring it 00:41:07.440 --> 00:41:11.000 to your classroom. You don't have to travel to 00:41:11.000 --> 00:41:13.579 that place to have observed a riot in Japan. 00:41:15.230 --> 00:41:17.610 And you can also, you know, you don't have to 00:41:17.610 --> 00:41:19.630 tell students to read about it, you know, for 00:41:19.630 --> 00:41:23.690 50 pages. If they can, with the 50 pages, see 00:41:23.690 --> 00:41:26.650 what it looked like in Japan and how they resolved 00:41:26.650 --> 00:41:30.110 potentially the conflict, or if they didn't resolve, 00:41:30.309 --> 00:41:32.590 what are the consequences, what's coming? So 00:41:32.590 --> 00:41:37.230 again, my point is just to say, I think that, 00:41:37.250 --> 00:41:42.710 you know, if you utilize... teaching materials 00:41:42.710 --> 00:41:46.369 in ways that are going to encourage your students 00:41:46.369 --> 00:41:49.429 to think about the universality of the human 00:41:49.429 --> 00:41:53.170 condition, that you've done your job globalizing 00:41:53.170 --> 00:41:59.929 their mindsets. So basically to look beyond your 00:41:59.929 --> 00:42:02.469 identity, well, my identity as an Indian, yours 00:42:02.469 --> 00:42:07.090 as a French Madagascar citizen, Madagascar citizen, 00:42:07.389 --> 00:42:11.699 or as an American citizen, or... Anywhere in 00:42:11.699 --> 00:42:15.559 the world and to look at things as human beings. 00:42:16.420 --> 00:42:22.280 Exactly. That's the bottom line. And think about 00:42:22.280 --> 00:42:27.139 fellow human beings. That's really the idea. 00:42:27.840 --> 00:42:31.539 Instead of saying, you know, oh, the Japanese 00:42:31.539 --> 00:42:34.460 do this, the Indians do that. Yes, of course, 00:42:34.480 --> 00:42:36.579 they do all of that. But, you know, beyond that, 00:42:36.659 --> 00:42:39.889 what is it that we're talking about here? And, 00:42:39.889 --> 00:42:42.429 you know, we're talking about an effort to, you 00:42:42.429 --> 00:42:47.190 know, make progress or to survive or to rise 00:42:47.190 --> 00:42:51.969 above challenges and all of that. So, yeah, I 00:42:51.969 --> 00:42:54.150 would say that's really to the point of really 00:42:54.150 --> 00:42:57.429 forgetting where you are and where the others 00:42:57.429 --> 00:43:01.530 are. So we're all like converging into this space 00:43:01.530 --> 00:43:05.090 of connectivity, social connectivity. That allows 00:43:05.090 --> 00:43:07.130 us to think, you know, like, oh, we're young 00:43:07.130 --> 00:43:10.510 people concerned about global issues, the future 00:43:10.510 --> 00:43:14.630 of our planet. Versus, oh, I'm really concerned 00:43:14.630 --> 00:43:21.650 about where India is going. Yeah. Or the fact 00:43:21.650 --> 00:43:25.190 that, oh, India is impacted by global warming. 00:43:25.190 --> 00:43:27.409 Exactly. My city's temperature is now 40 degrees 00:43:27.409 --> 00:43:32.820 Celsius. You got it. To look beyond that. And 00:43:32.820 --> 00:43:35.239 I realize for some it might sound trivial that 00:43:35.239 --> 00:43:37.440 like, oh, but we're already thinking like this, 00:43:37.500 --> 00:43:39.519 but I guess they need to realize the privilege 00:43:39.519 --> 00:43:42.780 that they have, the fact that they don't have 00:43:42.780 --> 00:43:44.400 to think about it, that they've already received 00:43:44.400 --> 00:43:48.000 that international slash global education or 00:43:48.000 --> 00:43:51.400 mindset enough that it's not something that they 00:43:51.400 --> 00:43:54.559 have to think of inherently as compared to somebody 00:43:54.559 --> 00:43:59.079 who needs further exposure to get to that point. 00:43:59.239 --> 00:44:02.250 Yes. I realize that the world is bigger than 00:44:02.250 --> 00:44:05.329 just one person or a group of people. Exactly. 00:44:06.090 --> 00:44:09.590 Exactly. Imagine the empathy that would come 00:44:09.590 --> 00:44:14.750 out of that. Imagine how we can rise above suspicion, 00:44:15.150 --> 00:44:22.349 mistrust, divisions. Imagine how unifying that 00:44:22.349 --> 00:44:24.510 would be. Even though, yes, we are different. 00:44:24.590 --> 00:44:27.429 We know that. Like I said, we don't speak English 00:44:27.429 --> 00:44:32.679 the same way. But that becomes, it's only a medium 00:44:32.679 --> 00:44:35.699 from communicating. We are interested in communicating. 00:44:35.800 --> 00:44:38.699 I am not trying to convince you to speak English 00:44:38.699 --> 00:44:44.179 like I do. There's no, let alone convince you 00:44:44.179 --> 00:44:47.340 to speak Malagasy. It's like, no, like you're 00:44:47.340 --> 00:44:50.079 not trying to convince me to learn to speak Hindi. 00:44:51.599 --> 00:44:59.179 We utilize our common language to connect. And 00:44:59.179 --> 00:45:02.980 hopefully, hopefully make the world a better 00:45:02.980 --> 00:45:07.320 place. And kind of live that human experience. 00:45:07.320 --> 00:45:12.300 Exactly. On a very equal, you know, on equal 00:45:12.300 --> 00:45:20.940 terms. In a collaborative way. Partnership. Not 00:45:20.940 --> 00:45:27.059 trying to make you into me. on the basis that 00:45:27.059 --> 00:45:29.940 I am better, superior, more enlightened than 00:45:29.940 --> 00:45:33.039 you or anything like that. No. No, it's really 00:45:33.039 --> 00:45:36.820 because we have to bring everything that makes 00:45:36.820 --> 00:45:40.559 us different and unique into thinking about making 00:45:40.559 --> 00:45:43.780 a situation better than we found it, for instance. 00:45:43.880 --> 00:45:46.420 So make the world better than we found it is, 00:45:46.579 --> 00:45:50.500 yeah, that's how I think of it. That's the value 00:45:50.500 --> 00:45:57.860 of a global education and a global mindset. Ideally. 00:45:57.860 --> 00:46:00.019 To leave the world a little bit better than when 00:46:00.019 --> 00:46:05.260 you found it. Yes. By working with others. Collaborating. 00:46:05.260 --> 00:46:08.159 Being curious. And I suppose that's the difference 00:46:08.159 --> 00:46:10.239 between the international. The international 00:46:10.239 --> 00:46:12.400 would be to leave your country or its allies 00:46:12.400 --> 00:46:17.300 better than when you found it. And I guess you 00:46:17.300 --> 00:46:21.199 could say that's patriotism and nationalism to 00:46:21.199 --> 00:46:25.289 a certain extent. But the global is what connects 00:46:25.289 --> 00:46:29.809 all human beings. Different from the universal. 00:46:30.550 --> 00:46:32.789 Different from the universal. Because with the 00:46:32.789 --> 00:46:36.289 universal, there's like, again, like, oh, this 00:46:36.289 --> 00:46:40.590 norm emerges somewhere and we should all adopt 00:46:40.590 --> 00:46:43.690 it. Sometimes it's a good thing. But there's 00:46:43.690 --> 00:46:47.909 still some imposition there. It's almost lazy. 00:46:48.829 --> 00:46:51.889 Like, I know better. So therefore, you need to 00:46:51.889 --> 00:46:55.510 learn what I know. With the universal? Yeah. 00:46:55.630 --> 00:46:59.510 If I say, you know, I don't know what are some 00:46:59.510 --> 00:47:02.730 universal norms that we live by now up here. 00:47:03.150 --> 00:47:10.170 I don't know. Freedom. Equality. The UN's human 00:47:10.170 --> 00:47:17.130 rights. Yes, exactly. Good. Yeah. The Declaration. 00:47:17.769 --> 00:47:22.730 The UN Declaration of Human Rights. The thing 00:47:22.730 --> 00:47:28.909 is, we have to realize that maybe in some particular 00:47:28.909 --> 00:47:33.250 circumstances, it's an imposition. And because 00:47:33.250 --> 00:47:35.550 it's an imposition, it might, you know, your 00:47:35.550 --> 00:47:38.329 norm might not be seen as legitimate and it won't 00:47:38.329 --> 00:47:42.550 be absorbed. So if nothing else, you know, it 00:47:42.550 --> 00:47:46.110 will be ineffectual. But sometimes it's actually 00:47:46.110 --> 00:47:51.250 damaging too, you know, just to make people... 00:47:51.579 --> 00:47:55.000 You know, make people abide by norms that they 00:47:55.000 --> 00:48:00.880 never came up with. So universalization, that's, 00:48:00.880 --> 00:48:04.500 you know, that's, again, some good and then some 00:48:04.500 --> 00:48:10.460 things to really reconsider. Sometimes universalization 00:48:10.460 --> 00:48:15.440 is a simple way of imposing, of dominating. Again, 00:48:15.739 --> 00:48:22.719 my way is the way. I don't know. That lacks humility. 00:48:22.980 --> 00:48:28.440 That lacks curiosity. And I think that it's a 00:48:28.440 --> 00:48:32.480 step, you know, it's a barrier to, again, making 00:48:32.480 --> 00:48:36.019 things better on the basis of equal partnerships. 00:48:38.980 --> 00:48:41.820 Am I making sense to you? Oh, of course. Yes. 00:48:42.920 --> 00:48:47.250 Yeah. So I think we need one grand, spectacular 00:48:47.250 --> 00:48:49.590 statement from you for the ending, something 00:48:49.590 --> 00:48:55.809 that will really hit the audiences hard. A Spider 00:48:55.809 --> 00:48:57.530 -Man sort of thing, like with great power comes 00:48:57.530 --> 00:49:00.670 great responsibility. I really don't have one, 00:49:00.710 --> 00:49:06.530 but I will just say, you know, always look for 00:49:06.530 --> 00:49:12.590 what unites us rather than what divides us. Always 00:49:12.590 --> 00:49:18.570 look for what equalizes us, then organizes us 00:49:18.570 --> 00:49:22.909 into hierarchies. Yeah, that would be. And the 00:49:22.909 --> 00:49:26.010 global, if you do it right, will get you there 00:49:26.010 --> 00:49:30.630 at a global scale. There you go. There you go. 00:49:31.030 --> 00:49:35.630 So that was Professor Nadia Horning on this week's 00:49:35.630 --> 00:49:38.150 episode of the Monkey Mind Lab, where we looked 00:49:38.150 --> 00:49:40.980 at the question. Is there truly a difference 00:49:40.980 --> 00:49:43.639 between an international education and a global 00:49:43.639 --> 00:49:46.139 education? Thank you so much for joining us, 00:49:46.179 --> 00:49:50.599 Professor Horning. My pleasure. Bye -bye. Bye 00:49:50.599 --> 00:49:50.820 -bye.