Welcome to Our Voices Our Future, the podcast
where we amplify the voices driving change and
equity within medicine and beyond. Brought to
you by the Gender Equity Task Force, a committee
of the American Medical Women's Association.
We're here to challenge norms, break barriers,
and ignite conversations that matter. I'm Rhea
Manohar, and in each episode, we'll bring you
candid discussions with leaders, change makers,
and advocates working to create a more inclusive
and just world. No more silence, no more waiting.
You're listening to Our Voices, Our Future. Let's
get into it. Today we're welcoming Dr. Joanna
Georgekis, who is a psychiatrist and a clinical
fellow in geriatric psychiatry and Mass General
Brigham in Boston, Massachusetts. Dr. Georgekis
received her BA from Middlebury College, where
she majored in neuroscience and gender. Feminist
and Sexuality Studies, she earned her medical
degree from the Alpert Medical School of Brown
University and subsequently completed her psychiatry
residency training at Brown, serving as chief
resident. Dr. George Kiss's academic work has
focused on the leaky pipeline phenomenon for
women in STEM fields and feminist science studies.
She's also the founder of the original iteration
of this podcast series, which was known as Doctor
and Multidimensional Women in Medicine to evaluate
the narratives of women advancing gender equity
in medicine. Thank you so much for being with
us today and coming back as a podcast guest.
It's my pleasure. I'm excited to be here So with
that I'm gonna go ahead and get started. Can
you share your journey to becoming a psychiatrist?
Sure, so I kind of always pictured myself actually
initially as a neurologist. So I studied neuroscience
In my undergrad years and I actually went on
to pursue internships over my summer months Looking
into Alzheimer's disease kind of having that
focus. I ended up getting placed at McLean Hospital,
doing the student visitor program, working with
primarily geriatric psychiatrists. And that really
was a shape for the future, ended up kind of
switching, really liking psychiatry beyond Alzheimer's
disease, working with older adults too was a
pretty special thing for me. So much so that
I've continued on now in fellowship for geriatric
psychiatry. So can you talk to me about that
transition from neurology, which you said you
had kind of been in for a while and then switching
to psychiatry. Yeah, so I did that student visitorship
and kind of had that focus on neurology, really
fascinated by the brain, how small changes can
really not only change someone's movement, but
also who they are and kind of their core memories
and what makes a person a person, I guess. I
spent a lot of time in college, I worked as a
certified hospice volunteer, so I spent a lot
of time in memory units, working with folks who
were diagnosed with Alzheimer's or other dementias,
really interested in kind of figuring out the
neuroscience behind it too. I worked in a mouse
model with Alzheimer's disease and that was kind
of where I got my academic itch, I guess, or
curiosity. From there, I ended up Working between
my time and undergrad in medical school and I
ended up working at that same with that same
group in McLean I had spent my internship with
or student visitorship with I Ended up being
able to see a lot more of geriatric psychiatry
and really liking it and hearing people's stories
Understanding kind of the medicine with aging
and how it can impact mental health And honestly,
getting to see people really improve and be that
support system really felt special considering
that person as a whole. As I kind of progressed
into med school, I knew I felt really comfortable
in psychiatry. I knew it felt like a fit. So
I feel like I resisted it a little bit where
I tried on everything else because I wanted to
be 100 % sure that I wasn't missing anything
or I wasn't trying to choose something because
it felt comfortable or familiar to me. So I tried
everything from I don't know, neurosurgery, I
kind of stayed in the brain. Also to like emergency
medicine and tried a bunch of different things
out to see what I might be missing or if psychiatry
really was a fit for me. So obviously you've
gone through almost all of your medical training
as a student at this point. What would you say
are the significant challenges that you faced
along the way? I think for me, so I didn't have
my brother was in medicine, but I didn't have
any other doctors in my family. So I think going
into medicine, I think I wasn't really sure about
what the path was and all of the rigor of training
or what was ahead of me. So I think the adjustment
and kind of meeting things where they were and
kind of adapting and length of training is also
really long. I'm really grateful that I did it.
I don't see myself being like. as happy in any
other career. I'm grateful for the choice, but
it definitely was a long, long road. And I think
my favorite quote in medicine is long days, short
years. It moves by really, really quickly, but
some of the days are pretty hard. So that was
my biggest thing ahead of me that I didn't really
quite realize when I started the journey. I love
that. I kind of want to talk a little bit about
your training. A lot of this training has been
done. Ivy League and highly respected institutions,
do you find that gender equity and inequalities
are still seen in these institutions or have
we moved past them in a certain way? Oh, I think
they're they're seen everywhere. I think that's
why we still have a task force at AMWA and it's
not quite moved. beyond the task force, where
it's still an active issue and something we're
still trying to make aware and kind of work on.
I think I did have a lot of privilege, especially
going to medical school at Brown. I had an incredible
mentor there, Katherine Sharkey, who was at the
time part of the Office of Women in Medicine
and her dean. And she held pretty incredible
events throughout. that I got to go to actually
throughout residency and medical school, talking
about women in medicine, women in STEM fields,
having book clubs, creating kind of a really
great circle to talk about these things. But
I don't think any type of institution can mask
or kind of cover up. I think it's a big societal
issue that's going on and it's pretty pervasive
everywhere. I definitely, you know, in the hospital
walls, you still have encounters where where
patients may say things, you might get mistaken.
I remember even as like a chief resident doing
my junior attending, I still had a patient asked
to see the real doctor who was a male medical
student that I had done his intake that I had
supervised. So you still see these things, it
still happens. You can't escape the kind of microaggressions
of being a woman in medicine, which I can only
imagine is further compounded if you have other
intersecting identities. Definitely. I kind of
want to dissect what you've shared just a little
bit. So first I want to talk a little bit about
these institutions, whether they're academic
centers or even hospitals. Obviously as a task
force we work a lot on what can we do to bring
some of these issues to light, but what would
you like to see from a policy or program perspective
to tackle the effects of these gender biases
or microaggressions even on a smaller scale.
Yeah I think one of the biggest things being
done and something that I try to be active about
too is just I like the phrase like women empowering
women and kind of trying to uplift one each other
uplift one another and also when you see something
kind of say something which can be tough especially
through a training but even being like a peer
advocate or reaching out to a peer if you witness
something and helping them process it or chat
about it or being there to validate what's going
on or something that's hard can make a really
big impact and difference. I think some of the
big moments that I've seen that stuck with me
from actually mentors and people who are senior
to me in the field, I remember vividly being
at a conference and having actually a panel that
was primarily of men who are in medicine with
one woman who was a primary investigator on the
panel as well. person coming up after their incredible
talk, asking the gentleman on the panel to respond
to a question. And one of the senior investigators
actually said, actually, this woman who's on
the panel, she's our expert and kind of set the
question up for her. And that was really powerful
and moving and having that immediate in the moment
correction felt really great. So I think those
little small things we can change or do in the
moment or actually makes really, really big difference.
Microaggressions can really tear someone down.
Micropositives can also build someone up. So
I think as I move forward, I'm trying to be realistic
with my expectations of what I might be able
to do within my career, what I'm able to do from
a day to day. And I think trying to uplift those
around me and work with people and promote the
women who are incredible, who I work to work
with is something that I can do and is in my
wheelhouse. Definitely. Well, I appreciate you
sharing all that. And I thought that story was
really interesting because a lot of the times,
I think we focus specifically on women need to
empower other women, women need to uplift other
women to get to places. But it's really something
that everyone should be working towards. And
I think it was interesting to hear like, oh,
another male physician or another male PI kind
of took that moment. to reverse the script. Yeah,
I think those are really impactful, too. I remember
in medical school, too, even having the male
peers kind of note things or bring things up.
To me, that just made me feel validated. Not
that there was any change in an outcome, but
I remember going to see a patient. with an MS3
when I was an MS4 and having a patient say something
that was really inappropriate and the MS3 kind
of staying back with me and saying, hey, that
was uncomfortable. Like, are you okay? Like,
let's talk about it. And that was really validating
in the kind of like a hidden curriculum in medicine
that you don't get to talk about. So I would
say your gender doesn't make you in line or out
of line with the gender equity movement. It doesn't
matter how you identify. It's all important and
equity across the board. Now you've shared so
much about how mentorship has shaped your path.
How have you found and created these relationships
with mentors really at every stage of your journey?
Yeah, I think mentorship is definitely a big
part of why I am where I am today. I definitely
have been really blessed with some pretty incredible
mentors in my life. I think early on when I was
working at McLean, which has really shaped my
career path as I got to work with an incredible
physician, Brent Forrester, who really kind of
sparked my interest in geriatric psychiatry.
And I've gotten to stay in touch with him throughout
my career. Still a really close mentor today
with check -ins on how are you doing? What are
you thinking about? What are you thinking about
for fellowship? How do you apply? Should I do
this? And it's been instrumental in me kind of
taking on or exploring different opportunities,
even applying for fellowship and looking at jobs.
He's been instrumental in kind of shaping that
for me. And I think being someone who's kind
of a first generation doctor or physician, having
someone kind of advanced in their career, kind
of show you what you should be looking at or
kind of helping you dream a dream alongside you
is a really big help. I don't know where I'd
be without him so I'm really grateful and then
like I mentioned to Katie Sharkey at Brown was
also. mental mentor for me from my first year
of, you know, medical school, helping us found
our AMWA chapter to kind of reaching out, helping
me talk about things, being someone who's a sounding
board when I might have a frustrating day or
encounter, helps me like process things, talk
about jobs. I'm also lucky in that she is trained
in psychiatry as well. So that was just happenstance.
She's a sleep medicine doctor. So I think a big
part of finding mentors is just reaching out,
being persistent, finding people. And it sounds
so tacky or corny, but find people who you really
like live with and connect with and kind of want
to help guide you or people that you admire.
You can see yourself wanting to develop a career
like one that they might have and reach out and
seek guidance from them, I think. fostering a
mentor -mentee relationship is definitely a skill.
A lot of it is just reaching out and letting
people know what you're up to, what you've been
doing. A lot of it for me early on too is getting
to work on research projects or papers or getting
involved in helping kind of write things up or
present things. Even with Dr. Forrester, a lot
of it was I was his research assistant for a
while, so it was like putting stuff together
on that end with Dr. Sharkey was creating, we
kind of had the pursuit of creating our AMWA
chapter together and then getting to present
some work at some of the AMWA conferences together.
So that type of like staying involved is is always
nice and now that i'm kind of advancing in my
training and i'm a fellow i get to work with
medical students like you and residents and get
to kind of share that same type of relationship
which is rewarding on the other end as well so
don't be afraid to reach out people want to hear
from you and the people who really love teaching
and mentoring like me really want to be there
i want to hear your successes and celebrate them
with you and kind of help you navigate some of
the challenging parts of training as well Well,
I know myself as well as the many medical students
who listen to this podcast Definitely have a
little bit of anxiety sometimes about reaching
out feeling like you're Maybe taking up people's
time or that they don't have space for you So
I think it's nice to hear sometimes That there
are people who are interested in being a part
of that journey of medicine since it is such
a long haul Yeah, and it's definitely rewarding
on the other end too. It's like, I don't know,
like lighting the spark or remembering where
you were and kind of how far you've gone and
getting to share that path with someone else
is pretty special. Definitely. I want to talk
about your work with AMWA. You have been a very
active member of AMWA, especially on the Gender
Equity Task Force since medical school. What
led you to join AMWA? Yeah, so I was a gender,
sexuality, and feminist studies major up at Middlebury,
which is a little bit different. Not everywhere
offers that, but I ended up actually writing
my senior thesis on feminist science studies,
particularly the Leakey pipeline, which is really
kind of a focus on how women, particularly in
STEM fields, tend to have like equal interest
early on and then kind of throughout their career
trajectory or training, the attrition rate is
pretty high, particularly for women, which is
not seen in men. In my first year of medical
school, the Gender Equity Task Force had a leaky
pipeline initiative. And I thought that was kind
of like perfect, if you will, having the background
that I had. in writing the thesis that I did
as a place to kind of step in and be involved.
So I ended up working with and reaching out to
Roberta Gebhard, who kind of helped found the
Gender Equity Task Force. And she kind of got
me involved right away. And I got to kind of
lead the medical student at the time initiative
part of it and getting to meet and talk to medical
students. About kind of what they thought about
women leaving medicine at the medical student
level and kind of what people's thoughts were.
we talked a lot about kind of downsides or bad
things that were happening. And from there, I
kind of thought about all of the great women
I got to talk to because I was part of AMWA and
was in these spaces going to the conferences
and chatting and in these zoom conference calls
that we have once a month. So kind of from that
initiative, my idea for having like a podcast
was really born. and getting to kind of share
that message of here are all these wonderful
women in medicine and I don't really care what's
going on with the negatives but here are all
the wonderful positive things they're doing it
and if they're doing it we can do it too. As
a medical student in trainee and kind of it went
on from there and here we are today. You kind
of started talking about this a little bit but
how has being a part of M1 being able to create
these different initiatives and perims shaped
your medical journey? Yeah, I think being a part
of AMWA so early on was such an invaluable experience.
I think getting the opportunity to be a part
of a task force, kind of be a part of a really
large national organization actually helped prepare
me for other roles I have in national organizations
and leadership roles in a really positive way.
I think it's open doors for me in terms of connecting
me with really awesome people, getting to kind
of learn from others. and also just having this
space of these incredible women. If you haven't
already, I highly encourage you to join the Gender
Equity Task Force for those listening. It's a
really powerful space of incredible people across
all stages of training and to physicians and
attendings from different specialties who come
together really caring about people, to put it
simply, and kind of how we make medicine better
and also how do we make everything equitable.
gender -related, but also in general. It's a
hard system to be within, and there's a lot of
moral injury in medicine that we learn along
our training. So having these spaces to try to
make an impact and try to make change is really
powerful. Yeah. So I feel your call for other
people to join the Gender Equity Task Force in
AMWA. Kind of like what you were talking about
earlier, I think it's a great space for people
to find the joy and mentorship within medicine
that might be a little bit more challenging as
you're going through your training. So with that,
what advice would you give your past self navigating
the journey from medical school to residency
to fellowship? Oh, that's a good one. I think
it would just be not to be corny, but to quote
finding Nemo and Dory is just keep swimming.
You get there eventually, and I think especially
with my residency training, now that I'm on the
other side of it, it really goes by quickly,
even though some days are really long and they
feel like you're kind of in it or stuck. Things
in training are kind of month by month. So if
you're having a harder month, this is something
that always kind of got me through, like working
nights and not being able to see friends or having
your sleep schedule, kind of not. Not where it
should be you're not sleeping enough for being
on kind of twenty four hour calls that there's
an end to it it's not. I'm training is not infinite
it's finite so it will it will pass in and what
can you do to kind of be in the moment and take
what you can from it. because it doesn't last
forever. And that being said, it's such a charitable
time to really get to learn and reach out and
ask questions. And even though it can be anxiety
provoking to ask questions sometimes, it's the
best space to do it and to be kind of unafraid
and really try to remember that this is your
training and your time and to maximize it. Thank
you so much for being with us here today and
sharing your experiences. That's a wrap on this
episode of Our Voices, Our Future. We hope today's
conversation inspired you, challenged you, and
reminded you of the power of raising your voice.
The fight for equity doesn't stop here. Join
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