WEBVTT 00:00:16.319 --> 00:00:19.219 Welcome to Our Voices Our Future, the podcast 00:00:19.219 --> 00:00:21.699 where we amplify the voices driving change and 00:00:21.699 --> 00:00:24.100 equity within medicine and beyond. Brought to 00:00:24.100 --> 00:00:26.140 you by the Gender Equity Task Force, a committee 00:00:26.140 --> 00:00:28.440 of the American Medical Women's Association. 00:00:28.899 --> 00:00:31.480 We're here to challenge norms, break barriers, 00:00:31.640 --> 00:00:34.280 and ignite conversations that matter. I'm Rhea 00:00:34.280 --> 00:00:36.479 Manohar, and in each episode, we'll bring you 00:00:36.479 --> 00:00:38.859 candid discussions with leaders, change makers, 00:00:38.939 --> 00:00:41.679 and advocates working to create a more inclusive 00:00:41.679 --> 00:00:44.960 and just world. No more silence, no more waiting. 00:00:45.259 --> 00:00:48.600 You're listening to Our Voices, Our Future. Let's 00:00:48.600 --> 00:00:51.520 get into it. Today we're welcoming Dr. Joanna 00:00:51.520 --> 00:00:54.399 Georgekis, who is a psychiatrist and a clinical 00:00:54.399 --> 00:00:58.280 fellow in geriatric psychiatry and Mass General 00:00:58.280 --> 00:01:02.619 Brigham in Boston, Massachusetts. Dr. Georgekis 00:01:02.619 --> 00:01:05.180 received her BA from Middlebury College, where 00:01:05.180 --> 00:01:08.400 she majored in neuroscience and gender. Feminist 00:01:08.400 --> 00:01:10.760 and Sexuality Studies, she earned her medical 00:01:10.760 --> 00:01:13.700 degree from the Alpert Medical School of Brown 00:01:13.700 --> 00:01:17.120 University and subsequently completed her psychiatry 00:01:17.120 --> 00:01:20.079 residency training at Brown, serving as chief 00:01:20.079 --> 00:01:23.590 resident. Dr. George Kiss's academic work has 00:01:23.590 --> 00:01:26.329 focused on the leaky pipeline phenomenon for 00:01:26.329 --> 00:01:29.290 women in STEM fields and feminist science studies. 00:01:29.769 --> 00:01:32.290 She's also the founder of the original iteration 00:01:32.290 --> 00:01:35.530 of this podcast series, which was known as Doctor 00:01:35.530 --> 00:01:39.590 and Multidimensional Women in Medicine to evaluate 00:01:39.590 --> 00:01:43.010 the narratives of women advancing gender equity 00:01:43.010 --> 00:01:45.650 in medicine. Thank you so much for being with 00:01:45.650 --> 00:01:47.969 us today and coming back as a podcast guest. 00:01:48.400 --> 00:01:52.519 It's my pleasure. I'm excited to be here So with 00:01:52.519 --> 00:01:54.719 that I'm gonna go ahead and get started. Can 00:01:54.719 --> 00:01:57.659 you share your journey to becoming a psychiatrist? 00:01:58.920 --> 00:02:01.900 Sure, so I kind of always pictured myself actually 00:02:01.900 --> 00:02:04.700 initially as a neurologist. So I studied neuroscience 00:02:04.700 --> 00:02:08.020 In my undergrad years and I actually went on 00:02:08.020 --> 00:02:12.580 to pursue internships over my summer months Looking 00:02:12.580 --> 00:02:14.960 into Alzheimer's disease kind of having that 00:02:14.960 --> 00:02:18.900 focus. I ended up getting placed at McLean Hospital, 00:02:19.080 --> 00:02:21.659 doing the student visitor program, working with 00:02:21.659 --> 00:02:25.000 primarily geriatric psychiatrists. And that really 00:02:25.000 --> 00:02:27.400 was a shape for the future, ended up kind of 00:02:27.400 --> 00:02:30.800 switching, really liking psychiatry beyond Alzheimer's 00:02:30.800 --> 00:02:32.919 disease, working with older adults too was a 00:02:32.919 --> 00:02:35.180 pretty special thing for me. So much so that 00:02:35.180 --> 00:02:38.919 I've continued on now in fellowship for geriatric 00:02:38.919 --> 00:02:42.699 psychiatry. So can you talk to me about that 00:02:42.699 --> 00:02:46.259 transition from neurology, which you said you 00:02:46.259 --> 00:02:49.300 had kind of been in for a while and then switching 00:02:49.300 --> 00:02:55.000 to psychiatry. Yeah, so I did that student visitorship 00:02:55.000 --> 00:02:59.020 and kind of had that focus on neurology, really 00:02:59.020 --> 00:03:02.900 fascinated by the brain, how small changes can 00:03:02.900 --> 00:03:05.639 really not only change someone's movement, but 00:03:05.639 --> 00:03:07.860 also who they are and kind of their core memories 00:03:07.860 --> 00:03:11.009 and what makes a person a person, I guess. I 00:03:11.009 --> 00:03:13.389 spent a lot of time in college, I worked as a 00:03:13.389 --> 00:03:15.389 certified hospice volunteer, so I spent a lot 00:03:15.389 --> 00:03:18.469 of time in memory units, working with folks who 00:03:18.469 --> 00:03:21.050 were diagnosed with Alzheimer's or other dementias, 00:03:21.430 --> 00:03:24.430 really interested in kind of figuring out the 00:03:24.430 --> 00:03:26.469 neuroscience behind it too. I worked in a mouse 00:03:26.469 --> 00:03:29.189 model with Alzheimer's disease and that was kind 00:03:29.189 --> 00:03:31.949 of where I got my academic itch, I guess, or 00:03:31.949 --> 00:03:38.280 curiosity. From there, I ended up Working between 00:03:38.280 --> 00:03:40.620 my time and undergrad in medical school and I 00:03:40.620 --> 00:03:42.280 ended up working at that same with that same 00:03:42.280 --> 00:03:44.460 group in McLean I had spent my internship with 00:03:44.460 --> 00:03:48.020 or student visitorship with I Ended up being 00:03:48.020 --> 00:03:50.879 able to see a lot more of geriatric psychiatry 00:03:50.879 --> 00:03:54.060 and really liking it and hearing people's stories 00:03:54.060 --> 00:03:57.979 Understanding kind of the medicine with aging 00:03:57.979 --> 00:04:01.840 and how it can impact mental health And honestly, 00:04:02.120 --> 00:04:03.960 getting to see people really improve and be that 00:04:03.960 --> 00:04:06.800 support system really felt special considering 00:04:06.800 --> 00:04:09.500 that person as a whole. As I kind of progressed 00:04:09.500 --> 00:04:12.599 into med school, I knew I felt really comfortable 00:04:12.599 --> 00:04:14.879 in psychiatry. I knew it felt like a fit. So 00:04:14.879 --> 00:04:16.699 I feel like I resisted it a little bit where 00:04:16.699 --> 00:04:19.220 I tried on everything else because I wanted to 00:04:19.220 --> 00:04:22.800 be 100 % sure that I wasn't missing anything 00:04:22.800 --> 00:04:24.839 or I wasn't trying to choose something because 00:04:24.839 --> 00:04:27.399 it felt comfortable or familiar to me. So I tried 00:04:27.399 --> 00:04:30.120 everything from I don't know, neurosurgery, I 00:04:30.120 --> 00:04:33.160 kind of stayed in the brain. Also to like emergency 00:04:33.160 --> 00:04:35.259 medicine and tried a bunch of different things 00:04:35.259 --> 00:04:39.439 out to see what I might be missing or if psychiatry 00:04:39.439 --> 00:04:42.920 really was a fit for me. So obviously you've 00:04:42.920 --> 00:04:46.860 gone through almost all of your medical training 00:04:46.860 --> 00:04:49.579 as a student at this point. What would you say 00:04:49.579 --> 00:04:51.800 are the significant challenges that you faced 00:04:51.800 --> 00:04:55.740 along the way? I think for me, so I didn't have 00:04:55.740 --> 00:04:58.079 my brother was in medicine, but I didn't have 00:04:58.079 --> 00:05:01.540 any other doctors in my family. So I think going 00:05:01.540 --> 00:05:05.100 into medicine, I think I wasn't really sure about 00:05:05.100 --> 00:05:08.519 what the path was and all of the rigor of training 00:05:08.519 --> 00:05:11.399 or what was ahead of me. So I think the adjustment 00:05:11.399 --> 00:05:13.879 and kind of meeting things where they were and 00:05:13.879 --> 00:05:17.160 kind of adapting and length of training is also 00:05:17.160 --> 00:05:19.300 really long. I'm really grateful that I did it. 00:05:19.300 --> 00:05:22.560 I don't see myself being like. as happy in any 00:05:22.560 --> 00:05:25.040 other career. I'm grateful for the choice, but 00:05:25.040 --> 00:05:28.120 it definitely was a long, long road. And I think 00:05:28.120 --> 00:05:30.920 my favorite quote in medicine is long days, short 00:05:30.920 --> 00:05:33.259 years. It moves by really, really quickly, but 00:05:33.259 --> 00:05:37.480 some of the days are pretty hard. So that was 00:05:37.480 --> 00:05:40.279 my biggest thing ahead of me that I didn't really 00:05:40.279 --> 00:05:43.420 quite realize when I started the journey. I love 00:05:43.420 --> 00:05:45.899 that. I kind of want to talk a little bit about 00:05:45.899 --> 00:05:48.319 your training. A lot of this training has been 00:05:48.319 --> 00:05:51.889 done. Ivy League and highly respected institutions, 00:05:52.350 --> 00:05:56.730 do you find that gender equity and inequalities 00:05:56.730 --> 00:05:59.850 are still seen in these institutions or have 00:05:59.850 --> 00:06:03.430 we moved past them in a certain way? Oh, I think 00:06:03.430 --> 00:06:05.250 they're they're seen everywhere. I think that's 00:06:05.250 --> 00:06:08.870 why we still have a task force at AMWA and it's 00:06:08.870 --> 00:06:11.939 not quite moved. beyond the task force, where 00:06:11.939 --> 00:06:13.920 it's still an active issue and something we're 00:06:13.920 --> 00:06:17.779 still trying to make aware and kind of work on. 00:06:17.879 --> 00:06:20.120 I think I did have a lot of privilege, especially 00:06:20.120 --> 00:06:23.319 going to medical school at Brown. I had an incredible 00:06:23.319 --> 00:06:27.839 mentor there, Katherine Sharkey, who was at the 00:06:27.839 --> 00:06:30.860 time part of the Office of Women in Medicine 00:06:30.860 --> 00:06:33.819 and her dean. And she held pretty incredible 00:06:33.819 --> 00:06:36.279 events throughout. that I got to go to actually 00:06:36.279 --> 00:06:38.920 throughout residency and medical school, talking 00:06:38.920 --> 00:06:41.100 about women in medicine, women in STEM fields, 00:06:41.600 --> 00:06:44.420 having book clubs, creating kind of a really 00:06:44.420 --> 00:06:47.160 great circle to talk about these things. But 00:06:47.160 --> 00:06:51.300 I don't think any type of institution can mask 00:06:51.300 --> 00:06:55.180 or kind of cover up. I think it's a big societal 00:06:55.180 --> 00:06:57.920 issue that's going on and it's pretty pervasive 00:06:57.920 --> 00:07:00.819 everywhere. I definitely, you know, in the hospital 00:07:00.819 --> 00:07:04.290 walls, you still have encounters where where 00:07:04.290 --> 00:07:06.790 patients may say things, you might get mistaken. 00:07:07.110 --> 00:07:09.230 I remember even as like a chief resident doing 00:07:09.230 --> 00:07:12.949 my junior attending, I still had a patient asked 00:07:12.949 --> 00:07:15.709 to see the real doctor who was a male medical 00:07:15.709 --> 00:07:18.170 student that I had done his intake that I had 00:07:18.170 --> 00:07:20.689 supervised. So you still see these things, it 00:07:20.689 --> 00:07:24.269 still happens. You can't escape the kind of microaggressions 00:07:24.269 --> 00:07:26.069 of being a woman in medicine, which I can only 00:07:26.069 --> 00:07:29.189 imagine is further compounded if you have other 00:07:29.189 --> 00:07:33.000 intersecting identities. Definitely. I kind of 00:07:33.000 --> 00:07:35.040 want to dissect what you've shared just a little 00:07:35.040 --> 00:07:38.819 bit. So first I want to talk a little bit about 00:07:38.819 --> 00:07:42.060 these institutions, whether they're academic 00:07:42.060 --> 00:07:46.740 centers or even hospitals. Obviously as a task 00:07:46.740 --> 00:07:50.199 force we work a lot on what can we do to bring 00:07:50.199 --> 00:07:52.639 some of these issues to light, but what would 00:07:52.639 --> 00:07:55.819 you like to see from a policy or program perspective 00:07:55.819 --> 00:07:59.800 to tackle the effects of these gender biases 00:07:59.800 --> 00:08:02.660 or microaggressions even on a smaller scale. 00:08:03.699 --> 00:08:05.459 Yeah I think one of the biggest things being 00:08:05.459 --> 00:08:08.139 done and something that I try to be active about 00:08:08.139 --> 00:08:11.060 too is just I like the phrase like women empowering 00:08:11.060 --> 00:08:14.220 women and kind of trying to uplift one each other 00:08:14.220 --> 00:08:17.720 uplift one another and also when you see something 00:08:17.720 --> 00:08:20.740 kind of say something which can be tough especially 00:08:20.740 --> 00:08:25.439 through a training but even being like a peer 00:08:25.439 --> 00:08:28.240 advocate or reaching out to a peer if you witness 00:08:28.240 --> 00:08:30.720 something and helping them process it or chat 00:08:30.720 --> 00:08:33.860 about it or being there to validate what's going 00:08:33.860 --> 00:08:35.840 on or something that's hard can make a really 00:08:35.840 --> 00:08:38.879 big impact and difference. I think some of the 00:08:38.879 --> 00:08:41.879 big moments that I've seen that stuck with me 00:08:41.879 --> 00:08:44.480 from actually mentors and people who are senior 00:08:44.480 --> 00:08:46.759 to me in the field, I remember vividly being 00:08:46.759 --> 00:08:51.259 at a conference and having actually a panel that 00:08:51.259 --> 00:08:54.340 was primarily of men who are in medicine with 00:08:54.340 --> 00:08:57.240 one woman who was a primary investigator on the 00:08:57.240 --> 00:09:01.639 panel as well. person coming up after their incredible 00:09:01.639 --> 00:09:05.019 talk, asking the gentleman on the panel to respond 00:09:05.019 --> 00:09:08.179 to a question. And one of the senior investigators 00:09:08.179 --> 00:09:10.679 actually said, actually, this woman who's on 00:09:10.679 --> 00:09:13.500 the panel, she's our expert and kind of set the 00:09:13.500 --> 00:09:15.460 question up for her. And that was really powerful 00:09:15.460 --> 00:09:18.399 and moving and having that immediate in the moment 00:09:18.399 --> 00:09:21.960 correction felt really great. So I think those 00:09:21.960 --> 00:09:25.139 little small things we can change or do in the 00:09:25.139 --> 00:09:27.460 moment or actually makes really, really big difference. 00:09:28.059 --> 00:09:29.659 Microaggressions can really tear someone down. 00:09:30.159 --> 00:09:32.679 Micropositives can also build someone up. So 00:09:32.679 --> 00:09:36.080 I think as I move forward, I'm trying to be realistic 00:09:36.080 --> 00:09:38.179 with my expectations of what I might be able 00:09:38.179 --> 00:09:41.159 to do within my career, what I'm able to do from 00:09:41.159 --> 00:09:43.820 a day to day. And I think trying to uplift those 00:09:43.820 --> 00:09:46.840 around me and work with people and promote the 00:09:46.840 --> 00:09:49.019 women who are incredible, who I work to work 00:09:49.019 --> 00:09:51.879 with is something that I can do and is in my 00:09:51.879 --> 00:09:55.360 wheelhouse. Definitely. Well, I appreciate you 00:09:55.360 --> 00:09:57.940 sharing all that. And I thought that story was 00:09:57.940 --> 00:10:00.820 really interesting because a lot of the times, 00:10:01.299 --> 00:10:05.240 I think we focus specifically on women need to 00:10:05.240 --> 00:10:07.860 empower other women, women need to uplift other 00:10:07.860 --> 00:10:11.299 women to get to places. But it's really something 00:10:11.299 --> 00:10:14.700 that everyone should be working towards. And 00:10:14.700 --> 00:10:17.279 I think it was interesting to hear like, oh, 00:10:17.480 --> 00:10:20.779 another male physician or another male PI kind 00:10:20.779 --> 00:10:25.200 of took that moment. to reverse the script. Yeah, 00:10:25.460 --> 00:10:28.879 I think those are really impactful, too. I remember 00:10:28.879 --> 00:10:31.159 in medical school, too, even having the male 00:10:31.159 --> 00:10:34.120 peers kind of note things or bring things up. 00:10:34.419 --> 00:10:36.159 To me, that just made me feel validated. Not 00:10:36.159 --> 00:10:38.659 that there was any change in an outcome, but 00:10:38.659 --> 00:10:43.090 I remember going to see a patient. with an MS3 00:10:43.090 --> 00:10:46.549 when I was an MS4 and having a patient say something 00:10:46.549 --> 00:10:50.129 that was really inappropriate and the MS3 kind 00:10:50.129 --> 00:10:52.090 of staying back with me and saying, hey, that 00:10:52.090 --> 00:10:54.350 was uncomfortable. Like, are you okay? Like, 00:10:54.909 --> 00:10:57.830 let's talk about it. And that was really validating 00:10:57.830 --> 00:10:59.950 in the kind of like a hidden curriculum in medicine 00:10:59.950 --> 00:11:02.669 that you don't get to talk about. So I would 00:11:02.669 --> 00:11:07.129 say your gender doesn't make you in line or out 00:11:07.129 --> 00:11:09.330 of line with the gender equity movement. It doesn't 00:11:09.330 --> 00:11:12.500 matter how you identify. It's all important and 00:11:12.500 --> 00:11:18.279 equity across the board. Now you've shared so 00:11:18.279 --> 00:11:22.220 much about how mentorship has shaped your path. 00:11:22.860 --> 00:11:26.159 How have you found and created these relationships 00:11:26.159 --> 00:11:28.740 with mentors really at every stage of your journey? 00:11:30.019 --> 00:11:33.519 Yeah, I think mentorship is definitely a big 00:11:33.519 --> 00:11:36.519 part of why I am where I am today. I definitely 00:11:36.519 --> 00:11:39.139 have been really blessed with some pretty incredible 00:11:39.139 --> 00:11:42.769 mentors in my life. I think early on when I was 00:11:42.769 --> 00:11:45.909 working at McLean, which has really shaped my 00:11:45.909 --> 00:11:48.269 career path as I got to work with an incredible 00:11:48.269 --> 00:11:51.490 physician, Brent Forrester, who really kind of 00:11:51.490 --> 00:11:53.730 sparked my interest in geriatric psychiatry. 00:11:53.730 --> 00:11:55.710 And I've gotten to stay in touch with him throughout 00:11:55.710 --> 00:11:58.190 my career. Still a really close mentor today 00:11:58.190 --> 00:12:02.330 with check -ins on how are you doing? What are 00:12:02.330 --> 00:12:05.070 you thinking about? What are you thinking about 00:12:05.070 --> 00:12:07.110 for fellowship? How do you apply? Should I do 00:12:07.110 --> 00:12:10.389 this? And it's been instrumental in me kind of 00:12:10.389 --> 00:12:12.610 taking on or exploring different opportunities, 00:12:12.970 --> 00:12:16.269 even applying for fellowship and looking at jobs. 00:12:16.350 --> 00:12:18.309 He's been instrumental in kind of shaping that 00:12:18.309 --> 00:12:21.009 for me. And I think being someone who's kind 00:12:21.009 --> 00:12:24.549 of a first generation doctor or physician, having 00:12:24.549 --> 00:12:27.330 someone kind of advanced in their career, kind 00:12:27.330 --> 00:12:29.529 of show you what you should be looking at or 00:12:29.529 --> 00:12:32.149 kind of helping you dream a dream alongside you 00:12:32.149 --> 00:12:36.370 is a really big help. I don't know where I'd 00:12:36.370 --> 00:12:38.669 be without him so I'm really grateful and then 00:12:38.669 --> 00:12:41.529 like I mentioned to Katie Sharkey at Brown was 00:12:41.529 --> 00:12:46.049 also. mental mentor for me from my first year 00:12:46.049 --> 00:12:48.830 of, you know, medical school, helping us found 00:12:48.830 --> 00:12:51.830 our AMWA chapter to kind of reaching out, helping 00:12:51.830 --> 00:12:54.309 me talk about things, being someone who's a sounding 00:12:54.309 --> 00:12:57.129 board when I might have a frustrating day or 00:12:57.129 --> 00:13:00.269 encounter, helps me like process things, talk 00:13:00.269 --> 00:13:03.950 about jobs. I'm also lucky in that she is trained 00:13:03.950 --> 00:13:06.309 in psychiatry as well. So that was just happenstance. 00:13:06.370 --> 00:13:09.149 She's a sleep medicine doctor. So I think a big 00:13:09.149 --> 00:13:12.340 part of finding mentors is just reaching out, 00:13:12.340 --> 00:13:16.759 being persistent, finding people. And it sounds 00:13:16.759 --> 00:13:20.539 so tacky or corny, but find people who you really 00:13:20.539 --> 00:13:23.720 like live with and connect with and kind of want 00:13:23.720 --> 00:13:25.480 to help guide you or people that you admire. 00:13:26.539 --> 00:13:29.879 You can see yourself wanting to develop a career 00:13:29.879 --> 00:13:34.399 like one that they might have and reach out and 00:13:34.399 --> 00:13:37.450 seek guidance from them, I think. fostering a 00:13:37.450 --> 00:13:40.809 mentor -mentee relationship is definitely a skill. 00:13:42.370 --> 00:13:44.309 A lot of it is just reaching out and letting 00:13:44.309 --> 00:13:47.250 people know what you're up to, what you've been 00:13:47.250 --> 00:13:51.269 doing. A lot of it for me early on too is getting 00:13:51.269 --> 00:13:55.250 to work on research projects or papers or getting 00:13:55.250 --> 00:13:58.950 involved in helping kind of write things up or 00:13:58.950 --> 00:14:03.169 present things. Even with Dr. Forrester, a lot 00:14:03.169 --> 00:14:04.990 of it was I was his research assistant for a 00:14:04.990 --> 00:14:07.039 while, so it was like putting stuff together 00:14:07.039 --> 00:14:10.120 on that end with Dr. Sharkey was creating, we 00:14:10.120 --> 00:14:11.919 kind of had the pursuit of creating our AMWA 00:14:11.919 --> 00:14:14.440 chapter together and then getting to present 00:14:14.440 --> 00:14:17.200 some work at some of the AMWA conferences together. 00:14:17.700 --> 00:14:22.870 So that type of like staying involved is is always 00:14:22.870 --> 00:14:25.389 nice and now that i'm kind of advancing in my 00:14:25.389 --> 00:14:27.289 training and i'm a fellow i get to work with 00:14:27.289 --> 00:14:30.409 medical students like you and residents and get 00:14:30.409 --> 00:14:32.870 to kind of share that same type of relationship 00:14:32.870 --> 00:14:35.409 which is rewarding on the other end as well so 00:14:35.409 --> 00:14:37.730 don't be afraid to reach out people want to hear 00:14:37.730 --> 00:14:40.169 from you and the people who really love teaching 00:14:40.169 --> 00:14:43.350 and mentoring like me really want to be there 00:14:43.350 --> 00:14:45.629 i want to hear your successes and celebrate them 00:14:45.629 --> 00:14:47.850 with you and kind of help you navigate some of 00:14:47.850 --> 00:14:51.700 the challenging parts of training as well Well, 00:14:51.700 --> 00:14:54.639 I know myself as well as the many medical students 00:14:54.639 --> 00:14:57.799 who listen to this podcast Definitely have a 00:14:57.799 --> 00:14:59.759 little bit of anxiety sometimes about reaching 00:14:59.759 --> 00:15:04.519 out feeling like you're Maybe taking up people's 00:15:04.519 --> 00:15:06.720 time or that they don't have space for you So 00:15:06.720 --> 00:15:09.740 I think it's nice to hear sometimes That there 00:15:09.740 --> 00:15:12.039 are people who are interested in being a part 00:15:12.039 --> 00:15:15.299 of that journey of medicine since it is such 00:15:15.299 --> 00:15:18.750 a long haul Yeah, and it's definitely rewarding 00:15:18.750 --> 00:15:21.730 on the other end too. It's like, I don't know, 00:15:21.850 --> 00:15:23.409 like lighting the spark or remembering where 00:15:23.409 --> 00:15:25.929 you were and kind of how far you've gone and 00:15:25.929 --> 00:15:27.750 getting to share that path with someone else 00:15:27.750 --> 00:15:31.950 is pretty special. Definitely. I want to talk 00:15:31.950 --> 00:15:36.129 about your work with AMWA. You have been a very 00:15:36.129 --> 00:15:38.549 active member of AMWA, especially on the Gender 00:15:38.549 --> 00:15:41.470 Equity Task Force since medical school. What 00:15:41.470 --> 00:15:46.809 led you to join AMWA? Yeah, so I was a gender, 00:15:46.929 --> 00:15:49.389 sexuality, and feminist studies major up at Middlebury, 00:15:49.450 --> 00:15:51.710 which is a little bit different. Not everywhere 00:15:51.710 --> 00:15:53.769 offers that, but I ended up actually writing 00:15:53.769 --> 00:15:56.470 my senior thesis on feminist science studies, 00:15:56.730 --> 00:15:59.950 particularly the Leakey pipeline, which is really 00:15:59.950 --> 00:16:03.250 kind of a focus on how women, particularly in 00:16:03.250 --> 00:16:06.389 STEM fields, tend to have like equal interest 00:16:06.389 --> 00:16:09.250 early on and then kind of throughout their career 00:16:09.250 --> 00:16:11.389 trajectory or training, the attrition rate is 00:16:11.389 --> 00:16:13.149 pretty high, particularly for women, which is 00:16:13.149 --> 00:16:17.850 not seen in men. In my first year of medical 00:16:17.850 --> 00:16:20.549 school, the Gender Equity Task Force had a leaky 00:16:20.549 --> 00:16:23.429 pipeline initiative. And I thought that was kind 00:16:23.429 --> 00:16:26.009 of like perfect, if you will, having the background 00:16:26.009 --> 00:16:28.389 that I had. in writing the thesis that I did 00:16:28.389 --> 00:16:30.690 as a place to kind of step in and be involved. 00:16:31.190 --> 00:16:33.850 So I ended up working with and reaching out to 00:16:33.850 --> 00:16:37.029 Roberta Gebhard, who kind of helped found the 00:16:37.029 --> 00:16:40.370 Gender Equity Task Force. And she kind of got 00:16:40.370 --> 00:16:43.090 me involved right away. And I got to kind of 00:16:43.090 --> 00:16:46.149 lead the medical student at the time initiative 00:16:46.149 --> 00:16:48.149 part of it and getting to meet and talk to medical 00:16:48.149 --> 00:16:51.620 students. About kind of what they thought about 00:16:51.620 --> 00:16:53.899 women leaving medicine at the medical student 00:16:53.899 --> 00:16:56.139 level and kind of what people's thoughts were. 00:16:56.919 --> 00:16:59.779 we talked a lot about kind of downsides or bad 00:16:59.779 --> 00:17:02.659 things that were happening. And from there, I 00:17:02.659 --> 00:17:04.240 kind of thought about all of the great women 00:17:04.240 --> 00:17:06.700 I got to talk to because I was part of AMWA and 00:17:06.700 --> 00:17:08.799 was in these spaces going to the conferences 00:17:08.799 --> 00:17:11.880 and chatting and in these zoom conference calls 00:17:11.880 --> 00:17:14.839 that we have once a month. So kind of from that 00:17:14.839 --> 00:17:17.799 initiative, my idea for having like a podcast 00:17:17.799 --> 00:17:20.809 was really born. and getting to kind of share 00:17:20.809 --> 00:17:22.869 that message of here are all these wonderful 00:17:22.869 --> 00:17:26.009 women in medicine and I don't really care what's 00:17:26.009 --> 00:17:27.690 going on with the negatives but here are all 00:17:27.690 --> 00:17:29.490 the wonderful positive things they're doing it 00:17:29.490 --> 00:17:32.930 and if they're doing it we can do it too. As 00:17:32.930 --> 00:17:35.410 a medical student in trainee and kind of it went 00:17:35.410 --> 00:17:40.289 on from there and here we are today. You kind 00:17:40.289 --> 00:17:42.670 of started talking about this a little bit but 00:17:42.670 --> 00:17:46.910 how has being a part of M1 being able to create 00:17:47.079 --> 00:17:49.700 these different initiatives and perims shaped 00:17:49.700 --> 00:17:53.680 your medical journey? Yeah, I think being a part 00:17:53.680 --> 00:17:56.559 of AMWA so early on was such an invaluable experience. 00:17:56.720 --> 00:18:00.359 I think getting the opportunity to be a part 00:18:00.359 --> 00:18:03.140 of a task force, kind of be a part of a really 00:18:03.140 --> 00:18:06.599 large national organization actually helped prepare 00:18:06.599 --> 00:18:09.440 me for other roles I have in national organizations 00:18:09.440 --> 00:18:12.140 and leadership roles in a really positive way. 00:18:12.750 --> 00:18:15.470 I think it's open doors for me in terms of connecting 00:18:15.470 --> 00:18:19.049 me with really awesome people, getting to kind 00:18:19.049 --> 00:18:22.950 of learn from others. and also just having this 00:18:22.950 --> 00:18:26.490 space of these incredible women. If you haven't 00:18:26.490 --> 00:18:28.690 already, I highly encourage you to join the Gender 00:18:28.690 --> 00:18:31.490 Equity Task Force for those listening. It's a 00:18:31.490 --> 00:18:35.069 really powerful space of incredible people across 00:18:35.069 --> 00:18:38.710 all stages of training and to physicians and 00:18:38.710 --> 00:18:40.990 attendings from different specialties who come 00:18:40.990 --> 00:18:45.269 together really caring about people, to put it 00:18:45.269 --> 00:18:47.950 simply, and kind of how we make medicine better 00:18:47.950 --> 00:18:50.309 and also how do we make everything equitable. 00:18:51.720 --> 00:18:56.220 gender -related, but also in general. It's a 00:18:56.220 --> 00:18:58.380 hard system to be within, and there's a lot of 00:18:58.380 --> 00:19:00.240 moral injury in medicine that we learn along 00:19:00.240 --> 00:19:03.279 our training. So having these spaces to try to 00:19:03.279 --> 00:19:05.259 make an impact and try to make change is really 00:19:05.259 --> 00:19:09.319 powerful. Yeah. So I feel your call for other 00:19:09.319 --> 00:19:12.279 people to join the Gender Equity Task Force in 00:19:12.279 --> 00:19:14.720 AMWA. Kind of like what you were talking about 00:19:14.720 --> 00:19:17.559 earlier, I think it's a great space for people 00:19:17.559 --> 00:19:23.569 to find the joy and mentorship within medicine 00:19:23.569 --> 00:19:26.890 that might be a little bit more challenging as 00:19:26.890 --> 00:19:30.890 you're going through your training. So with that, 00:19:31.869 --> 00:19:35.049 what advice would you give your past self navigating 00:19:35.049 --> 00:19:38.250 the journey from medical school to residency 00:19:38.250 --> 00:19:42.769 to fellowship? Oh, that's a good one. I think 00:19:42.769 --> 00:19:46.890 it would just be not to be corny, but to quote 00:19:46.890 --> 00:19:49.690 finding Nemo and Dory is just keep swimming. 00:19:50.919 --> 00:19:53.740 You get there eventually, and I think especially 00:19:53.740 --> 00:19:56.079 with my residency training, now that I'm on the 00:19:56.079 --> 00:19:59.039 other side of it, it really goes by quickly, 00:19:59.099 --> 00:20:00.900 even though some days are really long and they 00:20:00.900 --> 00:20:04.720 feel like you're kind of in it or stuck. Things 00:20:04.720 --> 00:20:07.740 in training are kind of month by month. So if 00:20:07.740 --> 00:20:10.420 you're having a harder month, this is something 00:20:10.420 --> 00:20:12.700 that always kind of got me through, like working 00:20:12.700 --> 00:20:15.200 nights and not being able to see friends or having 00:20:15.200 --> 00:20:18.869 your sleep schedule, kind of not. Not where it 00:20:18.869 --> 00:20:20.950 should be you're not sleeping enough for being 00:20:20.950 --> 00:20:23.329 on kind of twenty four hour calls that there's 00:20:23.329 --> 00:20:27.069 an end to it it's not. I'm training is not infinite 00:20:27.069 --> 00:20:30.549 it's finite so it will it will pass in and what 00:20:30.549 --> 00:20:33.109 can you do to kind of be in the moment and take 00:20:33.109 --> 00:20:36.029 what you can from it. because it doesn't last 00:20:36.029 --> 00:20:38.750 forever. And that being said, it's such a charitable 00:20:38.750 --> 00:20:41.750 time to really get to learn and reach out and 00:20:41.750 --> 00:20:44.650 ask questions. And even though it can be anxiety 00:20:44.650 --> 00:20:47.730 provoking to ask questions sometimes, it's the 00:20:47.730 --> 00:20:50.650 best space to do it and to be kind of unafraid 00:20:50.650 --> 00:20:53.089 and really try to remember that this is your 00:20:53.089 --> 00:20:58.150 training and your time and to maximize it. Thank 00:20:58.150 --> 00:21:00.589 you so much for being with us here today and 00:21:00.589 --> 00:21:04.470 sharing your experiences. That's a wrap on this 00:21:04.470 --> 00:21:07.390 episode of Our Voices, Our Future. We hope today's 00:21:07.390 --> 00:21:10.329 conversation inspired you, challenged you, and 00:21:10.329 --> 00:21:12.549 reminded you of the power of raising your voice. 00:21:12.970 --> 00:21:14.890 The fight for equity doesn't stop here. Join 00:21:14.890 --> 00:21:17.529 us in the movement. Subscribe wherever you get 00:21:17.529 --> 00:21:19.809 your podcasts and if you loved this episode, 00:21:20.269 --> 00:21:22.289 share it with someone who needs to hear it. Until 00:21:22.289 --> 00:21:25.509 next time, stay bold, stay vocal, and keep the 00:21:25.509 --> 00:21:28.589 conversation going. This is Our Voices, Our Future.