Welcome to Our Voices, Our Future, the podcast
where we amplify the voices driving change and
equity within medicine and beyond. Brought to
you by the Gender Equity Task Force, a committee
of the American Medical Women's Association.
We're here to challenge norms, break barriers
and ignite conversations that matter. I'm Rhea
Manohar and in each episode, we will bring you
candid conversations with leaders, change makers
and advocates working to create a more inclusive
and just world. No more silence, no more waiting.
You're listening to our voices, our future. Let's
get to it. So today we are welcoming Dr. Erin
Hurley, a retired physician turned certified
productivity and wellbeing coach. Dr. Hurley
is the founder of Transformational Doc, where
she is dedicated to empowering healthcare professionals,
especially women in medicine, to achieve career
success while fostering their own wellbeing.
Through her work as a physician and burnout recovery
coach, she helps clinicians break free from burnout,
find balance, and create lives they love, both
in and out of medicine. Drawing on her years
of experience in clinical practice and her passion
for personal growth, Dr. Hurley is helping reshape
how we think about success, sustainability, and
self -care in healthcare. So Dr. Hurley, welcome
to the show. It's such a pleasure to have you
here. It's great to finally meet you, Rhea. Good
to be here. So getting started, you've had such
a meaningful career in medicine and now as a
physician coach. Can you share a bit about your
journey? What drew you to medicine and how has
that passion evolved over time? Well, my initial
passion for medicine started because I admired
my older brother and he decided he wanted to
be a veterinarian when I was in about fourth
grade. So I wanted to be a veterinarian and that
stuck with me until I was a college freshman.
And then I realized that I wanted to become a
people doctor and went along that route. medical
mission work to get some experience. I went to
Malawi, Africa as a pre -med and and yet I wasn't
the traditional medical student. I didn't have
any. doctors in my family. And when I met with
the premed advisor and I was not a straight A
student, I think I had a C plus in physics. Not
that I would recommend that. She basically said,
you know, you're not going to get through our
rigorous curriculum because they had a program
that took 350 medical students and then whittled
it down to 24 by the end of your junior year
of college. And then you would start as a first
year medical student in a kind of a sister program
with UCLA. And so she was used to these perfect
students who lived in the library, and I was
social. I was in a sorority. Anyway, so she basically
said, you're not going to get through our program,
and don't even bother applying to medical school.
Thankfully, my sister, for some reason, was dating
a medical student at the time who lived about
an hour away. He became my mentor, really helped
me figure out what did I need to do for my type
of pre -med student, and helped me successfully
get into medical school. And that was really
It was a powerful message for me because I took
a gap year before that was popular and was able
to not listen to the expert who was supposed
to be guiding me and gave me advice that I didn't
want to follow. And I knew I was meant to be
a doctor. And I'm so grateful that I didn't listen
to that advice and was able to. follow the career
that I wanted and fell into pediatrics because
I loved working with children my entire life.
And so that was an amazing match for me to work
in first general pediatrics. And then 15 years
into my career, I took a pivot and leaned into
specializing in child abuse medicine. That's
so interesting. What kind of led you to go from
being primarily a physician to now doing the
coaching that you do? It started with my own
journey getting coached so at age 50 I had a
bit of a pity party and I usually took my birthday
off and in that year I was the medical director.
I had new staff and we had this annual training
going on. So I offered to stay back at the clinic
and man the fort the entire week. And then I
got sick and I was working from home on my birthday,
which was before we were used to working from
home. It was not very easy to do. So big pity
party. And I said, I'm going to celebrate myself
this entire year. And I had an opportunity and
was invited into a coaching program a few weeks
later. And I was like, I'm going to, I'm going
to celebrate my birthday all year long. And because
I had to work on my birthday and through that
hired a coach and I was so amazed at my ability
to break out of old patterns and old habits within
six weeks of working with this very talented
coach. And it transformed every relationship,
my leadership, my parenting as a spouse. There's
not one relationship that wasn't positively impacted
by that journey. And so as I saw myself get out
of, I don't know if it was. actual burnout, but
it was at least exhaustion and overwhelm, which
was the first 20 years of my career. And working
with my coach, I was able to get out of that
and realize that I have more more choices than
I thought. And I got out of this victim mode,
oh, poor me, I work so hard into, well, if you
don't like your outcome, then make a different
choice and get a different outcome. And that
just became this new pattern. And I saw how powerful
it was in my life. It got me through a breast
cancer diagnosis, working with my coach. I lost
both of my parents within five weeks, early in
2020, working with her helped me with that. So
that really inspired me to say, well, if I got
this much benefit as a physician, what if I became
a coach and I helped other individuals in medicine?
And so I got certified in one and then a second
and then a third coaching certificate and began
coaching. After 10 years working in child abuse
medicine, it was a lot of trauma exposure. And
I'd cut back to part time. And I thought, you
know what? I can do as much good in medicine
by helping women have a more sustainable, joyful
career and empowering them to make better choices
so that they're not feeling trapped by their
work in medicine. And so I decided to pivot from
practicing medicine to helping individuals who
are practicing medicine to have healthier, more
sustainable careers. Well, as a future physician,
it's very inspiring to hear just the your journey
as well as how much you're working to help other
women in medicine. So kind of transferring over
to more of your personal experience, the balance
between a physician and a parent can be incredibly
complex. How did your experience in medicine
shape your approach to parenting? And what conversations
do you think you need to have more openly about
that intersection? Yeah, that's a big... one
of my big motivators for why I'm doing what I'm
doing. And I bring up parenting, whether it's
on my own podcast or when I'm coaching my clients,
I do a lot of parent coaching. And one of the
things I didn't realize, I assumed I was going
to be an amazing mom because I was not only a
doctor, I was a pediatrician. And so what better
match? I knew like the mechanics, but nobody
taught me about setting appropriate boundaries,
about what it took to become fully present at
home when your kids need you. And you've already
spent all of your time and energy at the office.
And by the time you get home, you have nothing
left. And so for me, I was very career focused.
I had leadership roles at each of the three organizations
I worked. for very early on, I was asked to do
leadership. And one, when I had a set of twins
and a third child, and they were all under the
age of three or four. And I still said yes to
a big leadership program. I still said yes to
helping build a brand new clinic. And I had no
business saying yes to those things, even if
I was maybe the right fit for those. So in hindsight,
I realized there's something called paying attention
to their seasons of your life. And sometimes
you might be the best person for an opportunity,
but it's not the right season. And so really
paying attention to what's the timing in your
life and not having that fear. of missing out,
not feeling obligated that if I'm the best one,
I should do it. So one of my coaches is fond
of saying, just because you can, doesn't mean
you should. So as a parent, I realized that even
my kids were pre -teens and teens. And then I
made a commitment to them. And I remember, I
remember tigger pouncing my daughter and looking
her in the eyes and one time saying like, I might
have messed up the first 14 years of your life,
but I promise you like these next four years,
you're at home. I will make these the best. And
it has really been a powerful turnaround in my
relationship. And so as I have created my coaching
practice, I'm working really hard to not fall
into those old habits that I had early on in
my medical career and making sure that I have
capacity, not only for my kids, but for my husband,
who has we've been together for 28 years, married
for 25, and he was ignored for decades sometimes.
And so I'm just so grateful that that my family
has stuck around and that I have had a bit of
a second chance to do it better and to learn
and. and honestly to be open to feedback. I interviewed
my own son a couple months ago. He's a 22 year
old, a medic in the army. And I just said, what
was it like growing up with me as a mom, with
your dad as a firefighter dad? And we were really
busy and we had really hard jobs. And one of
the things he said that he noticed is that this
disconnection, because we were so spent by the
time we got home. And I don't want that for other.
women in medicine. I don't want that for other
physician moms. And so I might learn from my
example. And I coach my clients to help them
find better balance and set better boundaries
so they can show up as an amazing physician,
not impacting their quality, and also an amazing
parent, which is possible. Thank you for sharing
that. I think a lot of women getting into medicine
and women in medicine kind of have this debate
in their head. How can you do both? You hear
from so many physicians as well about how challenging
it is to manage both of these roles but still
want to show up as your best self. in both places.
Also being willing to take on those leadership
roles and not necessarily wanting to miss out
on professional growth. So how do you kind of
work with physicians who are trying to have it
all in a sense? Yeah, and I have been one of
those individuals and sometimes you can't have
it all. or you have to recognize if I'm going
to put my energy into all of these different
areas, then you're going to have compromise.
There's a book that I love to quote called Essentialism
by Greg McCown. And he says, there are way too
many good yeses out there. Save your yeses for
the exceptional. opportunities. And he said he
has a follow up book, I don't remember the title
of it. But in that book, he says, I'm the author
of essentialism, where I teach people to say
no to good opportunities. He says, and sometimes
even the exceptional opportunities, there's too
many, and we have to really triage those and
figure out what we can and can't do. And recognizing
that there's not one right choice. There's not
one right answer. And I also recommend, if you
make a choice and it's not a great fit, then
pivot. And if you can't figure it out, get help.
Because I think a lot of women in medicine, we
are so smart, so independent, so determined,
sometimes stubborn. Again, I'm talking about
myself here. And we don't lean into asking help.
asking for help and that or advice or input.
And we do need to learn to trust our own gut
intuition, right? When we know something's right
or wrong for us. And yet we, you know, I coach
a lot of women and they have the financial means
to get help and they've never gotten help with
their landscaping, with their shopping, with
their childcare, with their housekeeping. And
I'm like, I call it buying sanity, right? Like
lean into getting help and ask for help early
and often. And that can sometimes take the burden
off of what you're doing. So you can really lean
into the stuff that's really important, that
really needs your attention, like your relationships.
So building off of that, so many in healthcare
are experiencing burnout, exhaustion, and compassion
fatigue, we like to call it. What practices or
mindset mindset shifts, do you find most essential
for protecting our physical, mental, and emotional
health as providers? We have to do something
for ourselves because otherwise you're going
to guarantee burnout. The work in medicine, whether
you're a student, a resident, or an attending
physician is demanding. And I didn't learn that
until two decades in. and I wish I had had practices.
So some of the things that you can do are simple,
but for me, meditation, some kind of meditative
practice, and I started with 12 minutes a day
on my Calm app, super easy. I now do it in bed
instead of snoozing before I get up. So then
it's kind of a guarantee. You are going to have
12 or 20 minutes of meditation every day. So
you're starting the day off. So I don't know
what everyone's schedule is. It's always different,
but we have time to add tiny little increments
of, of well -being practices into our day, whether
that's getting up 10 minutes early, sitting outside
and really enjoying your cup of coffee or tea,
whether that's taking You know, five, three minute
breaks throughout your day to close your eyes,
get off a screen, meditate quietly, moving our
bodies. And we not only are working really hard,
but in medicine, you're going to be exposed to
trauma. And as a trauma -informed coach and physician,
I've recognized how important all of these things
are and how important movement is. And think
about how much time we spend sitting and studying
or in a classroom if you're a student and standing
in the OR or sitting in clinic or sitting in
front of a screen. And our bodies are not meant
for that. And so again, what kind of practice
can you get into where you intentionally move
your body? It doesn't mean go to the gym for
an hour a day. That may not happen. But can you
get out for a five minute walk? Can you take
the stairs or take a burst and run up the stairs
so that you can shift your energy and really
help get better balance in your life? I call
it, what's the recipe that you need? And if you're
a student, a resident, and even as an attending,
you may not have a lot of what feels like control,
but it's like, what do you have control over?
What are the little increments of time? And then
pour into that. So instead of looking at a phone
screen and scrolling social media, not really
helpful. I ask you to do a screen and you say,
what is good for me now in the moment and good
for future me? So good for me now and good for
future me might be, I'm going to take a five
minute walk instead of scrolling social media
for five minutes. I'm going to call my best friend.
I'm going to send a voice text to my mom, whatever
that is. So asking that again, some things feel
good in the moment, but they're not good for
future you. So really paying attention to that.
And then we can pack a lot of goodness into one
five minute walk, get away from a screen. Get
outside, you move your body, invite a friend.
Now you're socializing and you can get four or
five positive things into one tiny five -minute
investment. Really simple. And I love that you
provided these examples of small incremental
changes that you can make. A lot of the time
I think we are so inundated with you need to
have 60 minutes of exercise or do all of these
large scale changes, which are not always possible
in everyone's schedule. So taking those small
times that are more manageable, more quantifiable
in a sense. um, is almost easier for people to
be able to implement. Yeah. And we can overcomplicate
things in medicine. So two pieces along that.
So if you take enough pennies and put them in
the bank every day, eventually you'll get to
a million dollars. So remember that each of those
little five minute increments of self -care are
adding money into your wellbeing bank in the
future. And it can be tiny little bits. It doesn't
have to be a hundred dollars at a time. And the
other thing is Don't overcomplicate it. So I
talk about, you know, if your goal is, oh, I
want to do the high jump and it's six feet in
the air. That's really hard to do. So I tell
my clients, you take the bar, you put it on the
ground. It's on the ground and you just step
over it. That's how easy that getting started
can be. So it's not overwhelming. And when you
do that super easy thing, five minutes a day,
can everybody find five minutes a day? Probably
just start with that. And then you can start
adding to it. But we make it super easy. So it's
not going to make us shy away. We're not going
to want to quit. And then we do it long enough,
like those pennies in the bank, and then we get
the benefit. Well, thank you so much for sharing
that. You had started talking about trauma and
I kind of want to come back to that a little
bit. So you've talked about the impact of trauma
and not only for patients, but also on the healthcare
team. What are some of the ways trauma shows
up in medical environments and how can we better
support both patients and providers in healing
from it? The first place I always like people
to start is awareness. If you're not aware of
trauma, a good place to start, if you're a medical
student, a resident, or a physician, is with
the ACEs study by Dr. Vince Felitti. It came
out in 1998, I believe. And it's very groundbreaking
in talks about the ACE stands for Adverse Childhood
Experiences. And what it shared is that negative
things are adverse experiences as a child can
negatively impact us with our mental health,
our physical health, and our behaviors. And so
if we are not aware that events in our patients
or our own lives or our family's lives can have
an impact on us as adults, we're going to be
missing an entire part of the equation. And so
raising your awareness if you're not aware of
trauma. I would encourage that you start with
that study. There's also a book called The Body
Keeps the Score by Bessel van der Kolk. And I
had the honor of going to Oxford, England in
September and listening to him teach in person.
And it was incredible three -day trauma conference.
And it really is about trauma can wire our brains.
in different manners. So a child who was exposed
to, let's say, a violent environment in their
home, the wiring of their brain circuitry is
different than a child because our brains were
created millennia ago in order to be in survival.
We need to survive to the next generation. And
so it takes much different skills, much different
brain wiring. If you grow up in a violent or
an unsafe environment, versus a safe and calm
environment. And so when we can look beyond what's
that behavior in front of us and say, I wonder
what's the trigger behind that behavior, whether
it's someone who can't keep the weight off, the
person who can never make it to the clinic on
time, really having an understanding and asking,
I wonder, and there are questionnaires. So some
clinics will ask about a patient's ACEs study
or ACEs score. You can look up your own ACEs
score by what's my ACEs going on a Google search
and at that, because it's important for us to
recognize we might have triggers as medical students,
as residents, as physicians. And if we're not
aware of our own triggers, something that may
be mundane for someone who hasn't been exposed
to a unique trauma, for me, let's say, they're
going to have no idea why do you always freak
out every time this thing happens? Why do you
feel unsafe? And it may have something I might
not even remember that happened in my childhood,
maybe even preverbal. So trauma is just, it's
impossible for me to look at anything without
my trauma lens because I worked in child abuse
medicine for 10 years. I dealt with families
in really difficult circumstances and I learned
so much. It was such a gift to me. And so that
when I'm meeting with clients or when I'm meeting
with family members or dealing with my own issues,
it helps me have a better understanding and dig
behind what's in front of us that behavior and
get curious about, I wonder what's behind that.
Well, thank you so much for sharing that. You
have walked such an inspiring path, one that
many listeners may relate to or aspire to follow.
What advice would you give to current or future
physicians who are struggling to find balance,
purpose, or healing in their own ways? Find a
good community. for me, learn from my lesson.
When I started practicing medicine, I had a great
set of friends in medical school and residency.
I look back on those times with such fond memories.
And then when I began practicing medicine, got
married, started a family, then my focus, it
seemed like I only had room for work and my family.
And what I was missing out as my time with my
girlfriends. for close to 20 years. And when
I started working with my coach, she challenged
me and she's like, Erin, where are your girlfriends?
I have friends, but I just don't make time for
them. And so she encouraged that. And that is
now a non -negotiable that I have my girlfriends
who are different relationships with me, my spouse,
then my kids, then my sisters. Um, and so that
for me is a really strong community, that network
that can help pick me up. when I'm struggling,
that I can ask for help, that I can ask for input.
And so don't isolate yourself even when you're
really busy. really stay connected. And I've
seen great examples from some of my coaching
clients that are so good at staying connected
with their friends. And they've had a much different
path in their studies and as an attending physician
because they have done such a good job at fostering
those relationships, including those outside
of medicine. Well, thank you so much for coming
on our podcast and for talking to us and sharing
your experiences. That's a wrap on this episode
of Our Voices, Our Future. We hope today's conversation
inspired you, challenged you, and reminded you
of the power of raising your voice. The fight
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