Welcome to Our Voices, Our Future, the podcast
where we amplify the voices driving change and
equity within medicine and beyond. Brought to
you by the Gender Equity Task Force, a committee
of the American Medical Women's Association.
We're here to challenge norms, break barriers,
and ignite conversations that matter. I'm Meenu
Menaney, and each episode we will bring you candid
discussions with leaders, change makers, and
advocates working to create a more inclusive
and just world. No more silence, no more waiting.
You're listening to Our Voices, Our Future. Let's
get into it. Today we're welcoming Dr. Jessica
Gray, who is a board certified family medicine
physician and a clinical assistant professor
at Texas Tech University Health Sciences Center.
She serves as the vice chair of the UMC Physicians
Board of Directors and is the team physician
for Texas Tech University women's basketball
team. Dr. Gray is deeply involved in advancing
physician well -being, leadership development,
and community health across West Texas. She's
the co -founder and host of the MedEdit podcast,
a CME accredited show that emerges medicine,
media, and mentorship. She also leads Talks with
Docs, a community education and outreach initiative
connecting healthcare professionals with the
public through evidence -based discussion. Passionate
about mentoring women in medicine, Dr. Gray's
work focused on building sustainable careers
and promoting joy in practice and empowering
the next generation of female physicians to lead
with authenticity and purpose. Welcome, Dr. Gray.
It's really great to have you here today. Yes,
thank you so much for having me. Excited to be
here to talk to you. To start off, can you share
a little bit about your journey in medicine and
what inspired you to become a physician and how
your experience as a woman has shaped you along
the way? Absolutely. So I feel like this is a
question that probably most physicians get asked
quite a bit. It's always like start at the beginning.
What inspired you to become a physician? And
I think for most people, that wasn't something
that just happened overnight, but it's a long
journey of shaping who you are and maybe going
back as far as childhood. And so for me, I've
always been interested in things in the medical
field. My mother is still a registered nurse.
And so being around medicine just even from a
young age was always intriguing to me. I really
like things like puzzles. I like to solve problems.
I like to see how everything fits into a bigger
picture. And so when you look for careers that
are solving problems, and solving puzzles and
trying to figure out the mystery, medicine does
start to come into that play, especially when
you want to add in that you want to help people.
So really for medicine, it kind of became this
really emerging puzzle that you kind of get these
each pieces was put together step by step over
time. I did a lot of shadowing and volunteering
and just working in the hospital and medical
field as much as I possibly could at young ages.
And all of that volunteerism really just showed
me that being in medicine and then being a physician
in medicine is really what I wanted to do. I
wanted to lead the team, solve that puzzle and
that mystery, and really help people who are
in the absolute most desperate times of their
lives that just really need somebody to not only
try to help them with the experience they're
going through, but also do it in a loving and
compassionate way. And so I think my experiences
as a woman Throughout that time really have helped
quite a bit as well. I mean going back to I'm
a first -generation college student and just
kind of figuring out how college worked and then
trying to figure out how to pay for college then
You know, I want to go to medical school how
I'm gonna pay for that. I'm gonna figure out
this along my way It's really hard when you when
you are the first one to kind of try to trailblaze
us and you may do it alone and not with a whole
lot of support and so there's definitely been
some roadblocks and some hurdles that I've had
to face along the way through this long journey
to get where I am today. Thank you for sharing
that. I feel like sometimes the path to medicine
is very hard to understand, especially if you
don't have others who've gone before you. I definitely
relate to that a lot. And I have friends who
are all very first generation as well, in Madison
especially, and higher education. Some even college.
They're the first in their families to graduate
college. So I think that definitely my husband
is too in his family. So it very speaks to like,
I think navigating that path by yourself. Like
learning some of those like lessons that maybe
like our children don't have to because we have
now learned and can guide them or even siblings.
And I feel like because my brother is like, you
kind of make the path for me now. That's how
my brother is. Exactly. No, I feel the same way.
I'm the oldest of four. And so the all my siblings
below me all ended up going to college afterwards.
But I do feel like it was really hard because
I'm like, oh, what are student loans? How do
you apply for that? You know, you have to have
a job. I'm also in college and trying to figure
that out. Or how do you pick your major? So it's
just it's just definitely interesting. And it
is helpful so that maybe we learn these things
and we can pass it down to our siblings or then
my own two kids. Hopefully I can help them along
that way, too. Many women in medicine experience
gender bias and even harassment sometimes but
often feel like they aren't able to speak up.
What have you observed or personally faced in
terms of these issues that show up in medicine
and how have you navigated those moments? So
I think this question, you know, will be honest
for our listeners, you providing these questions
ahead of time. And so I kind of had thought about
this when I thought, okay, how honest do I want
to be? And I think this is the opportunity that
we can share some of our stories so that people
as, you know, especially women, young women or
people and women in medicine can really know
that maybe they're not alone. with some of these
things that may happen. So it's been a while
now. So I feel like it's pretty fair to be able
to pull this one out and talk about it. But I
was harassed when I was in medical school. I
had a sexual harassment incident. I was on a
rotation. And I was a third year medical student.
And I was on a rotation. It was a night shift
rotation. And so I was there. And I was with
a male who was a resident at the time and you
know a couple years ahead of me and he decided
that it was he could uh you know make an advance
on me and he told me you know if i he if i was
gonna Go to his residency program where he worked.
He told me that he may not be able to control
himself around me. And then he put his hand on
my leg and I was alone. I was, you know, you
know, his night shift is probably like 2 a .m.
in a hospital. There were no other residents
around us. There was no other medical students.
And I was able to kind of very strongly in that
moment say, buddy, you're going to have to get
over that, which I think was pretty awesome in
the fact that I don't know if I was pretty awesome.
Same response, you know, now. I can't believe
that, you know, I had something just kind of
come over me was like you're and that kind of
was like stood up kind of pushed it in my way.
I was like, you're just gonna have to get over
that. And honestly, we were able to continue
working the rest of that evening and it didn't
end up, you know, it didn't go home, but I just
was like really stern and really strong. But
then I went home after that night shift and I
came home and I was in tears. I was really just
upset because I felt like not only was somebody
trying to take advantage of me, who is in a authoritative
position, but then this was a residency program
I was interested in. And I was then scared because,
OK, what if I get in? And he had mentioned that
he might become the chief resident. And I thought
there's all this power dynamic. And so. I was
really scared. And so I took a couple days to
try to figure out what do I do? Do I go report
this? But what if it's the program I want to
go to? Will I be, you know? Will I not get into
my residency program of my dreams anymore? Like
what's going to happen? And so it was a really
hard couple days sitting there and I ended up
going to my medical school student affairs office
and there was a lady that worked in there and
she was one of the coordinators and I remember
I took a moment to go talk to her because I remember
she had just always been so kind and open and
warm and I thought okay this is my chance and
so I told her what happened and she immediately
took me to another room and she got you know
an assistant dean involved but she did it in
such a supportive and caring way that it felt
like I had an advocate on my side and that experience
just really rocked me and not to go into like
further details along the line but There were
some things that came out of that that were kind
of hard that I ended up having to pay some backlash
for when it came out. There were some people,
even some faculty that had found out what happened,
and they said, oh, well, she should probably
just get over it. She's probably being dramatic.
And I think that's just something really difficult.
And it's weighed on me for well over a decade
at this point. And so it shapes me as when I
work with medical students or residents. I feel
really passionately that this should not, this
should not happen. And I'm sure much, much worse
has happened in other, you know, maybe programs
and other women have not felt like they could
speak out. They didn't have somebody like that
really kind of coordinator. And they sat there
and they said, I'm just so scared. I'm not going
to get the residency program or something might
happen or someone may not believe me or maybe
something much worse happened to them. So I think
that sometimes it's a moment that we do need
to share these stories. We do need to talk about
it and we need to make people aware. that yes,
our residency programs, our medical school curriculum
and our ACGME things that are in safeguards are
supposed to protect us. They have evolved over
the last 20 years or so, and they have become
much, much more supportive, Title IX, all these
other things that really are created there to
help make us feel supported. But there are things
that still can get lost along the way. And we
really just want to make sure that we are showing
up for other women. And sometimes it does take
um, other women to talk about their stories so
that somebody else may come to the forefront
and say, Hey, that happened to me too. Or if
that does happen to me, how will I respond? And
it may not just be women. Obviously there's can
be some male colleagues that have these experiences
as well. But I ended up having to work with this
around the same person for a few years. And so
it was a really difficult situation for several
years. And although I felt like I handled it
the best I possibly could and everything, you
know, in my life I feel like has turned out well
it's still something that weighs on me over a
decade later and I'm hoping I can turn that around
to be something I can help others with during
their medical career journey. I think first of
all I was really brave of you I think to be able
to speak up and like advocate for yourself I
think taking that first step even to like reach
out to someone who's kind and I think that's
something people struggle with and the other
part of it's that like you were there and the
systems at your school were there but the systems
like in societally and bigger than that we're
not caught up to where they need it to be to
be able to support you and help you and fix the
situation and not create a situation where this
could happen again. But I think you taking that
step to speak up speaks like it's very it's vulnerable
and brave and I think they also thank you for
sharing that like even after some of course like
that weighs on you that was a very like a little
incident that happened, especially early in your
training. And if it's a program you want it to
be at too, like that, like, I think that's something
like even without an incident, you're like always
thinking about like, are you doing everything
correctly? When you're on a rotation? Am I like
being judged for how I am? And like, so this
is like something bigger than just like the everyday
like constant like, like the thoughts that go
through a medical student's brain. Yeah, it's
not fair, right? Like we have enough on our minds
that we essentially, you know, as women and all
these other things we think about every single
day, we're trying, especially in some some, you
know, male dominated, you know, fields as well
as rotations where you're sitting there and,
you know, I'm not a very tall person. And I can
tell you half the time they're like, look right
past me or said I thought I was maybe one of
the nurses or something. So, you know, you're
trying to speak up. You're starting to be louder,
trying to, you know, have a good commanding presence
without being overbearing. There's all these
things we have to think about. And, you know,
It just adding something like this in is pretty
frustrating, right? I felt like it was just frustrating
that, you know, it was scary. It was frustrating.
And then it was just unfortunate. And then, of
course, I don't necessarily think that it probably
was handled. all the best ways afterwards as
well. I mean, at one point I got offered the
residency position, but they're like, would you
like to move to a different city? Like, you don't
have to do it in this city. You could do it in
a different city that we could transfer programs.
I'm like, no, I didn't do anything wrong. So
I think that it's one of those things that, yeah,
the systems are there, but they still may need
people to speak up and be strong to help. set
the right and create a better system for people
that come after me. I hope that somebody later
on would have a a better experience that they
did have to report it or something like that.
But I mean, one of the awesome things is that
I mean, really nice coordinator ended up becoming
really high level up in the medical school. And
so I just know people like that, you know, they
are the women that are making changes. There
are the women that are going to be looking out
for others if this incident were to happen again.
So I'm proud to know that, you know, she is one
of those change makers that is there. Yeah. No,
that's really like, I think we make the change
happen. We have to be part of the conversations
and we have to it's hard. But I think sometimes
having like women that have done it before and
having allies in your space, male or female,
or gender neutral, like, I think having people
that can support you and be advocates alongside
you is really important. My next question is
kind of going to go on a whole other realm of
deep and a different side of things in terms
of like what women face. I think the next question
I'd ask you about was going to be about infertility
and how deeply personal that struggle is sometimes.
And I think women, we kind of are in our like,
we have children during training a lot of times
as well. And we aren't able to openly discuss
how that like infertility and things like that
affect us as your experience shaped your understanding
and empathy and resilience the way and how you
support women who are experiencing this kind
of thing, especially within our profession? Yeah,
so that's definitely I'm pretty open about the
fact that I've had a definitely difficult time
with my fertility journey in life. I'm very lucky
right now that I have two beautiful babies at
this point in life, but that was a very, very,
very difficult journey to get to that took almost
a decade worth of. Help and assistance and medical
things. So you're right though Like what you
said first is that women especially in medicine
were taught not to talk about these things at
all At first even before we go into medicine
a lot of times were discouraged from going into
medicine because we're told you can't have a
family You can't be a wife. You know family.
It's just not possible to be a doctor and do
all those things It's just really this broad
statement and so, you know You might meet somebody
who is a doctor and she also has maybe a family
is married all these things and so I have this
even to this day, a lot of people will come and
ask me these questions about how can you do it?
Do you feel like you can be a mom and be a physician?
And I'll say, absolutely, I do feel like you
can do it. And I think, like you said, we have
to have people that show, not just talk about,
but show them making this choice. And a lot of
women are having babies during medical school
or before or during residency. And so in having
residency programs that are also helpful and
designed to know what to do if a resident has
to go take maternity leave and delay their graduation.
Like I have several of my friends who had a baby
during residency and that worked out great because
they have great supportive programs are able
to help with it. So I think that definitely showing
people that's possible is a huge, huge gift to
women who are young and are thinking about, OK,
am I giving something up by choosing a career
like this? And I don't think that is the case
at all. Or they say, oh, I want to go become
something this or that because I'm worried about
not being able to have kids. And I think that's
just not the two can go together very, very well.
The statistics are there, though. There are one
in eight female physicians struggle with infertility.
And that was me. And we actually had to go through
um, different fertility specialists. Um, I had
to actually fly and leave where I work and fly
hundreds and hundreds of miles to a different
city to get treatments done. And I ended up having
to IVF for both my babies and, um, had a miscarriage
and had failed rounds of IVF. I mean, it was,
it was definitely a long, long struggle. And
I definitely think it has changed the conversations
I have with my women, um, in my clinic. Even
my men too, actually. Sometimes my men will come
in and they'll tell me about their struggling
with infertility issues as far as maybe their
wife is going through this or that. And I will
be able to actually provide them with the men
with some great resources because I don't feel
like people even focus on that. Even for my own
husband, it would have been nice if somebody
had been like, hey, here's a great book that
even he could read and that would help show how
he could support her. So I do provide those things
to my men or sometimes women and my female patients
may be trying to get pregnant and they haven't,
and it's been over a year, I'll tell my male
patients, like, hey, you need to go talk to your
doctor about X, Y, and Z issues that could be
related to your own fertility. Because a lot
of times we blame it all on the women. We don't
think about male factor infertility. So having
those conversations is definitely there. I talk
to my patients quite often about what their goals
are, if they are interested in fertility treatments,
that they have a lot of options, seeking out
fertility centers, they can even travel and just
showing them the different ways that it can be
done, really helping them stay away from the
crazy stuff online. Social media just absolutely
pours down your throat and makes you terrified
that if you're not buying this supplement or
doing this or that, or that it's your fault if
this doesn't happen. So just guiding them away
from that into more evidence -based resources
in a world that's just overflowing with misinformation.
I think that that also is good because even as
a physician, I was overwhelmed with even the
medical side of it. I cannot imagine not being
a medical experience, medical provider, and going
through all of this stuff. But it's definitely
expanded my empathy for my patients. I definitely
think resiliency is there. I had a patient just
this past week who had a first trimester miscarriage
and it just broke my heart because she's in a
very highly competitive career and she's got
to show up. She does not really get much of a
choice. She's got to show up basically the next
day and so I was trying to help her to rest and
take the time she needs for her but I could just
empathize quite a bit with her where It really,
it's awful, but you're going to be back at work
within 24, 48 hours and keep on going and have
to pretend everything's okay. And so having that
ability to have those conversations on a really
deeply personal level is a gift that infertility
gave me that I was not expecting, that's for
sure. I think that's really, it's a hard thing
to go through. And I feel like many women do
go through it, especially like that we hear about.
And I think especially women, like you said,
with high demanding careers, they can't just
take a pause to like, give themselves the time
and space to heal. And I think that makes it
even more harder. The thing that's already really
hard to navigate emotionally, physically, I think
having to show up, especially we have to show
up 100 % for our patients. Next day, no matter
what news we get personally, might it be about
our fertility or something else going on or personalize
anything that that like I can understand how
like hard that is. And this is an added thing
on top of that. But like, I'm glad you were able
to, I guess, take this really hard thing and
find some like a little bit of positive and like
empathy that you can help now connect with your
patients that are going through similar things.
And you can't take it away, but you can be there
in support and camaraderie with them. And I think
that's something that's really beautiful about
the role we play in medicine as physicians, I
think. Yeah, I completely agree with you. Now,
on the other side of it, my next question is
going to be being a mom and while practicing
medicine, I'm sure brings you really joy, especially
as having such a hard time conceiving and having
your kids. How do you kind of like navigate and
like balance the two, your professional identity
and motherhood, and what's the journey so far
taught you about yourself? So definitely like
my my two babies are my absolute greatest gifts
in my entire life And so I can tell you and I
know that many of my physician colleagues have
said this too that we are better doctors Because
we are moms. It's something like something happens
after you become a mom But also you're like,
huh, I get it now So I actually will ask different
questions to a lot of my paint my patients and
my women who come in to see me I have a lot of
women in my practice. I see a lot of women's
health And so they may start talking about things
like perimenopause. A lot of they're like, I
think I'm going through perimenopause. And they're
like 32 years old. And we're like, OK, well,
that's a little early, but let's talk about these
things. And they start talking about things like
insomnia. They start talking about irritability.
It kind of just. all these things that maybe
the internet has taught you, it must be, quote,
your hormones. Because we're women. So the internet
tells us it has to be your hormones. And so they're
just convinced that it's their hormones. And
they're doing whatever remedy some influencers
told them to do, or buying whatever else to balance
their hormones. And they've been doing this.
So they finally come in to see me. They're like,
I just don't feel right. And so honestly, we'll
start going through things. And if I'm not a
mom and sleep deprived myself, and maybe I'm
stressed or worried about something with my kid,
or I just learned, you know, what it really means
back to school time and actually how that actually
is kind of a really stressful time for women.
Before I was like, this sounds like a cute time.
They take cute little pictures, but you realize,
oh my goodness, there's class parties. There's
this, there's that. It just feels like it's just
overwhelming. And I'm a very type A person. So
everything has on the calendar and everything's
color coded and I have 16 different calendars
everywhere. But you can see how all of a sudden
these symptoms that sound like they should be
quote what the internet says should be perimenopause
and you're like no this is just the demands we
put on women as being a mom you are not able
to have a full night's sleep generally you know
if you have little ones or let's say you're breastfeeding
or pumping you know postpartum we never sleep
when that happens um you know you're balancing
things like mom guilt and school demands and
if you have a great supportive partner that's
amazing but and some people don't have that.
I'm so lucky that I do have an extremely supportive
partner. But my partner also, he works full time
and he even has to travel sometimes and he has
a very, very high demanding career as well. And
so it also means that I have to figure out how
to be able to ask or help and set boundaries.
And I'm not going to be able to do everything
perfect all the time. And so it kind of helps
me ask questions a little bit differently for
my patients instead of saying, well, you need
to exercise more and set your, you know, go to
sleep earlier and all these things. maybe she
can't go to sleep earlier because she's waking
up to pump or she's waking up to breastfeed or
her child is not either co -sleeping and they're
waking her up, kicking her. I think there's all
these different ways that sometimes having that
own personal experience just opens that door
so you can say, hey, so tell me what your relationship
with sleep is like, or tell me who's all in the
home and how those relationships have been recently.
It just helps me. open up conversations in a
different way and think about things with less,
let's order this lab or write this drug. It's
more like, let's see how we can be supportive
because sometimes my patient just kinds of needs
to hear that some of this is natural and she's
nothing's wrong with her. And she doesn't have
to be taking a supplement and you know, her ovaries
have not failed her and all that other stuff.
So definitely being a mom has made me have a
different perspective on having the opening conversations
with patients. I love that it's like kind of
opened up like less like rigid way of thinking
of like we do this if we see this to more like
yes we will do still do that but like let's also
explore like what else could be causing this
like let's talk through the social like factors
a bit more and like give them the space to talk
about it too because I'm sure they don't have
the space to talk to someone about it too in
their busy likes being a mom probably working
or not working or whatever other demands they
have. So no, I love that. You just said the phrase
mom guilt. So my question is going to be about
that phrase and how that I feel like that resonates
with many women in demanding careers. That's
something like even I haven't I don't have kids
yet. But that's something I thought about, like,
how do I balance it? How do you have you experienced
it personally? And like, how do you experience
it? And what do you think we can do as a profession
to help better support physicians who are mothers
in finding that kind of like balance and grace?
Absolutely. So Do I have the question being like
do I have mom go every single day? And it's funny
like even on the days that I'm doing it, right?
I feel like I'm usually like it could could this
be done better and and I do I think that I have
gotten to this stage of my career and I am approaching
ten years out as an attending physician now So
I do think at this point in time. Yeah. Yeah,
I know right and I do feel like I have gotten
to a space where I have really crafted my career
choices and the pathway into a way that helps
me have as much balance as you probably can get.
And there are some weeks that the balance feels
way off scale and some that I feel like, hey,
I'm doing pretty good here. But mom guilt is
there for basically everyone, I think I've realized.
Even if you, you know, whether you're a stay
at home mom, I noticed that I have friends that
are doing this and they are still have some kind
of mom guilt. I know that when I'm on maternity
leave and I'm at home with my baby and just snuggling
and loving and, you know, you're sleep deprived
and just in that newborn bliss and exhaustion
period, I still have guilt. It's like mom guilt
that I'm not at work doing my job providing for
my baby at the same time. My guilt for my career.
I guess you can call that one career guilt. And
there's just like there's constant. It's just
it's a feeling of that. You're just never doing
enough either way, whether you're balancing or
not. And I think that. There are some really
amazing examples around us of women that are
doing it right. I know there's one that I look
up to. I think she's pretty cool. She is a department
chair for our health sciences center for her
specific department. And there's not very many
females in department chair positions, as you
know, just in general. But she also has kids
and she's at everything for them, I feel like.
I see her at all of these things. I'm like, man,
she's one of the busiest people I've ever seen.
But I see her at their sporting events. I see
her at their art things. She just is there. And
she just takes time for herself at the same time.
And so it's really inspiring. And I'm like, how
does she end up at hours in the day? But I've
kind of figured out that she figures out these
other little ways and these little tricks. And
she's Some of them is just being able to take
your laptop with you and on the go, or having
things installed on your phone so you can answer
a message away from the office, setting some
boundaries in some areas, but be willing to work
a little bit extra in others. And so it's just
really interesting to see, especially on this
day and age where there are a lot of changes.
And depending on what... specific residency,
you know, what area you're practicing and there
are more and more difficult and not difficult
ways to make it work. You know, I have friends
that have done more shift work ways that they
do it. I have friends that do more like they
work 75 % and then they do more admin volunteerism
aspects on the other side. So it's just. All
I can say is that look for the women who you
feel like have it together in your field, because
they're going to tell you they don't, but they
may have some tips that really can be positive
for you. She talks about this one about plastic
balls and glass balls, and I had never heard
that expression before. I heard that recently,
actually, with a different podcast. Someone mentioned
that, and of like, some of our glass can break,
and others can bounce back, so it's figuring
out which ones are the ones that are glassy.
Exactly. That is the best thing for you to have
like heard now as a as a student everything and
going in residency and stuff because once you
choose to have like your family that also for
most people does a lot of things with their family
become glass balls and they don't think they
are afraid to let break. Well, not everything
related to your family is also a glass ball that
you have to realize, right? Like if I accidentally
threw out my kids. drawing he brought home from
school. And because it was in a pile of 50 other
ones he brought home from school, you know, broke
his little heart like, okay, the world did not
shatter. I can fix this. I'm not a terrible mom.
This happens. You know, there's little things
where you have to miss something small, but you
make sure that there is a, you know, if there's
a play, there's some kind of event that you need
to be at there's mom and son dance or grandparents
day, you're going to make sure that is on the
calendar. You have coverage. That is a priority.
That's a glass ball that will not drop. But you
can't do everything. And so finding the which
ones are plastic and which ones are glass as
a mom is really helpful. And I now use that analogy
with my patients. I had one came the other day
and she was like, well, my husband and I are
talking because he knows about the glass ball,
plastic ball thing now. He's trying to tell me
that things I think that are glass are actually
plastic, like getting Christmas tree decorated
before Thanksgiving. Yes, that's a great example.
And so I think especially when you're talking
about mom guilt, just kind of figuring out where
your boundaries are, your non -negotiables and
then what is plastic balls and what is glass
balls. No, I love that. No, this is like something
I've talked to my husband about too. I was like,
because I've heard like the juggling analogy
before, like I think when I was an undergrad,
but like the fact that the more I guess the more
nuanced version of like, what the balls are that
we're juggling, I think it was really especially
impactful. I'm like, no, that makes complete
sense. Like, like if I, I feel like like Let's
say like cleaning, for example, like if cleaning
the house, like if that's not necessarily a glass
ball, that can be made into a plastic ball or
we can figure out a fix. It doesn't have to be
me or my husband. If we have the space, it can
be like we have a robot vacuum running. We have
a schedule. If we have money in the future, maybe
we can have someone come help us once in a while.
I think that's the point, thinking through creative
solutions for things as well, I think is something
I've heard. Think outside the box. And once the
same thing, I tell people it's the same thing
you do in medicine. So it's really about triage,
right? And so like for me right now, we're sitting
here. This is a conversation we're having right
now. One of my kiddos needs to go to sleep. And
so my husband and I are like, OK, he's going
to put my baby to sleep tonight for that. And
then when I'm done, I get to go put the older
one who goes to bed a little later to sleep.
And I'm like, OK, that's a good priority. I don't
have to feel guilty that I didn't put the little
one down tonight. I'll make sure tomorrow I'm
putting him down because I need my snuggles too.
But then I'm also like, OK. I still have to get
their laundry done. And I've got a lot of laundry
piled up. And I'm like, OK, I need my laundry
done too. But you know what? That's a plastic
ball because I got some extra scrubs I can wear
tomorrow. The glass balls, my kids have to have
their uniform ready for school. So we'll get
that one done tonight. So just understanding
it's not like a one thing. It can be they can
broke down these tiny like marbles, right? Almost
size. It can be like glass and plastic marbles.
There's teeny tiny things. But being able to
put one and say, that's OK, that can be done.
tomorrow is so empowering because you'll know
I'm still a good mom, I'm still a good physician,
I'm still a good whatever if I just be able to
set this one aside and plan for this one at the
moment. It's just triage. We have to do it in
the ER, the ICU. all the time. But we do it as
like a student all the time too. Yes, you do.
I think it's just applying it to also a different
aspect of life. Yes, and I think taking all the
skills you're learning now and applying them
into like non -medical world is really, really
beneficial. It just takes practice and you won't
win them all. It's okay. No, it's definitely
like practice. Maybe we'll hit perfection, but
sometimes there's no perfection. It's just what
we're content with for the day. Yes, that's very
accurate. Very good statement there. I feel that
most days. It's like, all right, it's not going
to be perfection. It's just going to be what
we feel good about today. You bear many hats.
And my next question is going to be about that
leadership path as women in leadership. We're
really likely to navigate expectation stereotypes
that differ from our male counterpart. How do
you feel like, how do you lead authentically,
but also create that space for one or really
an honesty within your teams and your institution?
So I definitely think it is difficult in some
cases and even in institutions that are designed
to support and understand that women in leadership
do have different roles. Not always necessarily
more difficult. I wouldn't say compare every
single little bit of it, but there are different
roles. I think that being a woman and being a
younger woman in some of my areas of leadership
has been an interesting learning curve. I think
I've had to learn some things. not necessarily
always the traditional things that people think
of. Oh, you need to dress differently. You need
to dress like this or that. I think it's more
like I need to learn that when I walk into a
room and it's an important meeting that I need
to go walk up and shake hands with people as
I walk in, you know, even if they're sitting
there and they don't stand up to shake hands.
I guess it's an example because there's meetings
I've been in several times with a lot of leadership.
But I noticed that some of my male superiors
stand up and they give handshakes to all the
men that walk in. But when I walk in is one of
the only female females in the room, nobody stands
up and shakes my hand. And so it's kind of like,
OK, well, then I need to walk over there and
I need to go shake their hand. You know, when
I walk in the room and make sure we make it clear
that I'm a leader in this room as well. So little
tiny things like that are learning curves. A
more interesting one was that I was just feeling
really burnt out recently at work and in my office.
And I really cute office space. It's nice size
and everything. It's private office to myself,
big window. But all I have in there is the very
dark wood furniture and everything that's very
traditional. It's very just run of the mill.
Everybody has it. Well, I just kind of decided,
you know what? I do not care what anyone says,
I'm changing this all. So I bought myself a white
standing desk because I do like to run back and
forth in my office. So I bought this white L
shaped standing desk that had like brown wicker
on it too, which I thought was kind of cool.
And then I was like, I'm going to buy a colored
keyboard. And I was like, you know what? It's
going to be pink. Yes. And then I bought like
artwork and I put pink tulips in there. I put
my name on the wall and I bought a couch and
I bought a white marble table. I mean, you walk
in my office now and it's really cool. for me
and then I have my like eucalyptus essential
oils going and it feels really like a relaxing
calm space for me but if I had done this years
back I would have said well when my bosses walk
in they're going to think that I'm some 16 year
old girl having a meeting in here but it's kind
of funny now I'm like I'm glad they can come
in. And if they think I'm a 16 year old girl
having a meeting, that's great. But I feel good
about this space. It is a bright, fun, pop area.
It's calming. It's inviting. It's authentically
me. And this is the space that they're coming
into to have a conversation with me. I want them
to feel that too. And so I can tell you I have.
male superiors that are my bosses and they've
come in and they've always been very complimentary
about the office. So I think it's just kind of
fun and it's very authentic and it's very feminine,
it's very me and I just think it's a fun form
of expression. I think that's something me and
one of my friends were talking about is like
taking space. I think for things that like Like
should we should just take space for what we
did it in the past. We're like, no, that's gonna
be a goal. Like, we're not gonna eat hurriedly
because someone else is done. We're gonna take
the time to enjoy our food and be present. It's
not gonna take more than like five minutes, like
Max. So like take the space, hold the space because
you deserve the space. So I think that's an example
of that. So I'm so glad that I love that. Like
I think some of my favorite faculty offices is
the ones that are cozy. And I'm like, can I come
sit here for a little bit? Can I chat with you?
Thank you. My med students like it. All my med
students come in and they're like, oh, Dr. Gray,
your office. This is cool. And I'm like, yeah,
well, I thank you. It's kind of a fun space.
And if I have to be here every day, I want it
to be something that feels authentically me and
my space and uplifting. And it's a good conversation
starter as well. So I think that is nice. I mean,
it's obviously, I don't think anyone can be offended
by pink and glitter and all the fun stuff. So
I think that it's kind of nice. I don't think
anyone should do something that makes anyone
uncomfortable. But I think it is fun. I think
it's a space that yeah, like you said, just does
it does it take away from anything? No. And I'm
at this point, I feel like I have established
myself as a leader. I think I have the things
on my resume to say that if I want my space to
be pink and girly, that does not mean that I
cannot do my job to the highest degree possible.
And the pink and girly part reminds me of like,
Owlwood's like, like Legally Blonde when she
made her resume in pink and it's like scented
and he goes, it's scented. Yes, accepted. Yeah,
and I think I might be channeling that fully
into my office at the moment. It's 100 % Elle
Woods. And I think it's just kind of like, you
know what, go for it. Why not? Yeah, why not?
Like, it doesn't make you like your credentials
and what you do any less. It's just you expressing
yourself. And I think that's important sometimes.
It's a creative outlet. Yeah. And lastly, I wanted
to give you a little space and give us some advice
as well. You've lived through and learned a lot
and I feel like some parts have been really challenging,
especially being a woman in medicine. What advice
do you have to give younger female physicians
and trainees who are kind of just beginning in
their journey and especially some who might be
struggling in silence? I think that is a big
thought, right? If there are women that are struggling
in silence with their journeys towards becoming
a female physician, there are so many things
they can be struggling with, right? And there's
so many ways to approach it. But I think the
first thing we need to do is make sure that they
feel like they're not alone. It's really easy
for medical schools or systems and institutions
to say, oh, you need to find yourself a mentor
and have them mentor you. I was never a person
that was able to find a mentor. um especially
like a female mentor. I've had some great advocates
that have been great examples and I've had some
even male mentor leaders that have been really
great at giving me advice along the way but telling
them hey you just got to go find a female mentor.
I don't think that's a um a great piece of advice.
I think more that things like what you guys are
doing, where you're having conversations that
are open and honest and something that they can
consume even privately, right? Like a podcast
is something you can listen to privately. You
can watch something. There's so much more available
information from hopefully more authentic people
on even like social media. Now, granted, there
are definitely people showing you all the positive
fluffy sides of things right on social media,
but trying to just see that you're not alone.
If you're struggling, reach out to somebody.
It can be somebody within your institution. If
you are a trainee or a student, it can be somebody
that you just think, hey, they seem to have it
together. Kind of like where I was like, man,
that department chair seems like she's just really
got it together. And she'll tell you, no, I don't.
And here are the reasons I don't have it together.
But here are the ways that I feel like I am.
I am doing it right. So just having conversation.
We just can't be in silence. I think that's the
problem is the key word is there is silence.
I have had a resident that I worked with. He
was a year below me that ended up committing
suicide actually during the pandemic and stuff.
And so that was just shocking to thinking about
people suffering in silence. And we can't let
people suffer in silence. Things like the sexual
harassment experience could have been so much
worse and I'm sure there are people who have
had way, way, way worse and they are struggling
in silence. I think there are people that struggle
in silence with infertility and they don't have
spaces where they can have these conversations
and know they're not alone. I think there's women
that are in rooms of all men and they're a woman
in leadership and they sit there and they're
like, what can I do so that when I walk in to
a room, the men stand up for me and shake my
hand just like they do for my colleagues that
are male. we need to have these conversations
every single thing i just mentioned each one
of those points in my life there has been another
woman who has been um some kind of support or
just somebody that i could talk to they didn't
necessarily fix the problem there's someone that
i could talk to in each of those spaces and so
people i'm hoping people like me can be that
free other women that are in that training um
still in the beginning of their journey or maybe
there's already halfway through it who knows
it you still can have an impact on but if you've
had your own struggles being vulnerable and having
these conversations and having them more publicly
and authentically i think really will help people
in the long term the rule is we just can't do
it in silence anymore we need to speak up and
do it together i love that i love the like the
last part especially where you said like like
people that have been around you just like I
think continue to do that and I think that's
something that's really important especially
for trainees like even if they're a year younger
even the med student like the thing I think you
can continue you can start now and be that person
and let be your authenticity kind of guide that
and also find those people like maybe they're
around you maybe they are like a nurse that you've
become friends with maybe it's someone that's
outside of the little pocket of people you're
always around like I think there are I think
if you approach things with authenticity I think
people, the world can become a little bigger,
even though we may make our world a little smaller
ourselves, especially when we're hurt and we're
like, dealing with something is heavy in our
own brains. I think we tend to make our world
smaller. But I think that like, asking for that
help as hard as it is, I think is that first
step. I love the way you phrased it. Absolutely,
I 100 % agree with you. Well, thank you so much,
Dr. Gray. It's been really nice chatting with
you today. Thank you for sharing all that you
have and all the advice you've given me and other
people who are listening to this. We really appreciate
it all. Thank you so much for having me. I hope
it can help. And that's a wrap on this episode
of Our Voices Our Future. We hope today's conversation
inspired you, challenged you, and reminded you
of the power of raising your voice. The fight
for equity doesn't stop here. Join us in the
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and if you love this episode, share it with someone
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This is Our Voices Our Future.