WEBVTT 00:00:48.459 --> 00:00:50.880 Welcome to Our Voices, Our Future, the podcast 00:00:50.880 --> 00:00:53.280 where we amplify the voices driving change and 00:00:53.280 --> 00:00:55.340 equity within medicine and beyond. Brought to 00:00:55.340 --> 00:00:57.759 you by the Gender Equity Task Force, a committee 00:00:57.759 --> 00:00:59.820 of the American Medical Women's Association. 00:01:00.280 --> 00:01:02.299 We're here to challenge norms, break barriers, 00:01:02.420 --> 00:01:04.900 and ignite conversations that matter. I'm Meenu 00:01:04.900 --> 00:01:06.980 Menaney, and each episode we will bring you candid 00:01:06.980 --> 00:01:09.099 discussions with leaders, change makers, and 00:01:09.099 --> 00:01:10.920 advocates working to create a more inclusive 00:01:10.920 --> 00:01:13.420 and just world. No more silence, no more waiting. 00:01:13.620 --> 00:01:15.819 You're listening to Our Voices, Our Future. Let's 00:01:15.819 --> 00:01:18.780 get into it. Today we're welcoming Dr. Jessica 00:01:18.780 --> 00:01:21.420 Gray, who is a board certified family medicine 00:01:21.420 --> 00:01:23.239 physician and a clinical assistant professor 00:01:23.239 --> 00:01:26.980 at Texas Tech University Health Sciences Center. 00:01:27.540 --> 00:01:30.480 She serves as the vice chair of the UMC Physicians 00:01:30.480 --> 00:01:32.819 Board of Directors and is the team physician 00:01:32.819 --> 00:01:36.000 for Texas Tech University women's basketball 00:01:36.000 --> 00:01:39.180 team. Dr. Gray is deeply involved in advancing 00:01:39.180 --> 00:01:41.299 physician well -being, leadership development, 00:01:41.459 --> 00:01:44.180 and community health across West Texas. She's 00:01:44.180 --> 00:01:47.379 the co -founder and host of the MedEdit podcast, 00:01:47.819 --> 00:01:50.219 a CME accredited show that emerges medicine, 00:01:50.359 --> 00:01:53.459 media, and mentorship. She also leads Talks with 00:01:53.459 --> 00:01:56.159 Docs, a community education and outreach initiative 00:01:56.159 --> 00:01:58.540 connecting healthcare professionals with the 00:01:58.540 --> 00:02:01.680 public through evidence -based discussion. Passionate 00:02:01.680 --> 00:02:04.040 about mentoring women in medicine, Dr. Gray's 00:02:04.040 --> 00:02:06.560 work focused on building sustainable careers 00:02:06.560 --> 00:02:09.139 and promoting joy in practice and empowering 00:02:09.139 --> 00:02:11.639 the next generation of female physicians to lead 00:02:11.639 --> 00:02:15.560 with authenticity and purpose. Welcome, Dr. Gray. 00:02:16.259 --> 00:02:18.840 It's really great to have you here today. Yes, 00:02:18.840 --> 00:02:20.539 thank you so much for having me. Excited to be 00:02:20.539 --> 00:02:23.860 here to talk to you. To start off, can you share 00:02:23.860 --> 00:02:25.699 a little bit about your journey in medicine and 00:02:25.699 --> 00:02:27.699 what inspired you to become a physician and how 00:02:27.699 --> 00:02:30.740 your experience as a woman has shaped you along 00:02:30.740 --> 00:02:34.099 the way? Absolutely. So I feel like this is a 00:02:34.099 --> 00:02:36.740 question that probably most physicians get asked 00:02:36.740 --> 00:02:39.180 quite a bit. It's always like start at the beginning. 00:02:39.300 --> 00:02:42.620 What inspired you to become a physician? And 00:02:42.620 --> 00:02:44.759 I think for most people, that wasn't something 00:02:44.759 --> 00:02:46.680 that just happened overnight, but it's a long 00:02:46.680 --> 00:02:49.860 journey of shaping who you are and maybe going 00:02:49.860 --> 00:02:52.599 back as far as childhood. And so for me, I've 00:02:52.599 --> 00:02:54.520 always been interested in things in the medical 00:02:54.520 --> 00:02:57.699 field. My mother is still a registered nurse. 00:02:57.840 --> 00:03:00.000 And so being around medicine just even from a 00:03:00.000 --> 00:03:02.620 young age was always intriguing to me. I really 00:03:02.620 --> 00:03:05.400 like things like puzzles. I like to solve problems. 00:03:05.460 --> 00:03:07.919 I like to see how everything fits into a bigger 00:03:07.919 --> 00:03:10.400 picture. And so when you look for careers that 00:03:10.400 --> 00:03:12.849 are solving problems, and solving puzzles and 00:03:12.849 --> 00:03:15.430 trying to figure out the mystery, medicine does 00:03:15.430 --> 00:03:17.530 start to come into that play, especially when 00:03:17.530 --> 00:03:19.729 you want to add in that you want to help people. 00:03:20.229 --> 00:03:23.330 So really for medicine, it kind of became this 00:03:23.330 --> 00:03:26.289 really emerging puzzle that you kind of get these 00:03:26.289 --> 00:03:28.550 each pieces was put together step by step over 00:03:28.550 --> 00:03:31.569 time. I did a lot of shadowing and volunteering 00:03:31.569 --> 00:03:33.310 and just working in the hospital and medical 00:03:33.310 --> 00:03:36.289 field as much as I possibly could at young ages. 00:03:36.469 --> 00:03:38.770 And all of that volunteerism really just showed 00:03:38.770 --> 00:03:41.659 me that being in medicine and then being a physician 00:03:41.659 --> 00:03:43.340 in medicine is really what I wanted to do. I 00:03:43.340 --> 00:03:46.080 wanted to lead the team, solve that puzzle and 00:03:46.080 --> 00:03:48.340 that mystery, and really help people who are 00:03:48.340 --> 00:03:50.740 in the absolute most desperate times of their 00:03:50.740 --> 00:03:53.479 lives that just really need somebody to not only 00:03:53.479 --> 00:03:56.120 try to help them with the experience they're 00:03:56.120 --> 00:03:57.620 going through, but also do it in a loving and 00:03:57.620 --> 00:04:00.560 compassionate way. And so I think my experiences 00:04:00.560 --> 00:04:04.580 as a woman Throughout that time really have helped 00:04:04.580 --> 00:04:07.860 quite a bit as well. I mean going back to I'm 00:04:07.860 --> 00:04:10.319 a first -generation college student and just 00:04:10.319 --> 00:04:12.659 kind of figuring out how college worked and then 00:04:12.659 --> 00:04:14.560 trying to figure out how to pay for college then 00:04:14.560 --> 00:04:16.360 You know, I want to go to medical school how 00:04:16.360 --> 00:04:17.939 I'm gonna pay for that. I'm gonna figure out 00:04:17.939 --> 00:04:20.699 this along my way It's really hard when you when 00:04:20.699 --> 00:04:22.759 you are the first one to kind of try to trailblaze 00:04:22.759 --> 00:04:25.220 us and you may do it alone and not with a whole 00:04:25.220 --> 00:04:28.439 lot of support and so there's definitely been 00:04:28.439 --> 00:04:30.939 some roadblocks and some hurdles that I've had 00:04:30.939 --> 00:04:33.100 to face along the way through this long journey 00:04:33.100 --> 00:04:37.399 to get where I am today. Thank you for sharing 00:04:37.399 --> 00:04:40.680 that. I feel like sometimes the path to medicine 00:04:40.680 --> 00:04:43.800 is very hard to understand, especially if you 00:04:43.800 --> 00:04:46.160 don't have others who've gone before you. I definitely 00:04:46.160 --> 00:04:48.139 relate to that a lot. And I have friends who 00:04:48.139 --> 00:04:51.120 are all very first generation as well, in Madison 00:04:51.120 --> 00:04:55.120 especially, and higher education. Some even college. 00:04:55.339 --> 00:04:56.680 They're the first in their families to graduate 00:04:56.680 --> 00:04:59.379 college. So I think that definitely my husband 00:04:59.379 --> 00:05:02.310 is too in his family. So it very speaks to like, 00:05:02.389 --> 00:05:05.389 I think navigating that path by yourself. Like 00:05:05.389 --> 00:05:08.189 learning some of those like lessons that maybe 00:05:08.189 --> 00:05:11.069 like our children don't have to because we have 00:05:11.069 --> 00:05:14.389 now learned and can guide them or even siblings. 00:05:14.589 --> 00:05:15.889 And I feel like because my brother is like, you 00:05:15.889 --> 00:05:18.089 kind of make the path for me now. That's how 00:05:18.089 --> 00:05:20.370 my brother is. Exactly. No, I feel the same way. 00:05:20.470 --> 00:05:23.209 I'm the oldest of four. And so the all my siblings 00:05:23.649 --> 00:05:25.790 below me all ended up going to college afterwards. 00:05:26.230 --> 00:05:27.889 But I do feel like it was really hard because 00:05:27.889 --> 00:05:29.810 I'm like, oh, what are student loans? How do 00:05:29.810 --> 00:05:32.209 you apply for that? You know, you have to have 00:05:32.209 --> 00:05:34.649 a job. I'm also in college and trying to figure 00:05:34.649 --> 00:05:37.589 that out. Or how do you pick your major? So it's 00:05:37.589 --> 00:05:39.490 just it's just definitely interesting. And it 00:05:39.490 --> 00:05:41.870 is helpful so that maybe we learn these things 00:05:41.870 --> 00:05:43.550 and we can pass it down to our siblings or then 00:05:43.550 --> 00:05:45.910 my own two kids. Hopefully I can help them along 00:05:45.910 --> 00:05:50.519 that way, too. Many women in medicine experience 00:05:50.519 --> 00:05:53.600 gender bias and even harassment sometimes but 00:05:53.600 --> 00:05:55.660 often feel like they aren't able to speak up. 00:05:55.800 --> 00:05:58.139 What have you observed or personally faced in 00:05:58.139 --> 00:06:00.319 terms of these issues that show up in medicine 00:06:00.319 --> 00:06:04.939 and how have you navigated those moments? So 00:06:04.939 --> 00:06:08.620 I think this question, you know, will be honest 00:06:08.620 --> 00:06:10.420 for our listeners, you providing these questions 00:06:10.420 --> 00:06:12.500 ahead of time. And so I kind of had thought about 00:06:12.500 --> 00:06:14.819 this when I thought, okay, how honest do I want 00:06:14.819 --> 00:06:17.759 to be? And I think this is the opportunity that 00:06:17.759 --> 00:06:21.540 we can share some of our stories so that people 00:06:21.540 --> 00:06:24.300 as, you know, especially women, young women or 00:06:24.300 --> 00:06:26.240 people and women in medicine can really know 00:06:26.240 --> 00:06:28.420 that maybe they're not alone. with some of these 00:06:28.420 --> 00:06:31.279 things that may happen. So it's been a while 00:06:31.279 --> 00:06:33.300 now. So I feel like it's pretty fair to be able 00:06:33.300 --> 00:06:35.819 to pull this one out and talk about it. But I 00:06:35.819 --> 00:06:38.839 was harassed when I was in medical school. I 00:06:38.839 --> 00:06:44.379 had a sexual harassment incident. I was on a 00:06:44.379 --> 00:06:50.279 rotation. And I was a third year medical student. 00:06:50.579 --> 00:06:52.100 And I was on a rotation. It was a night shift 00:06:52.100 --> 00:06:55.100 rotation. And so I was there. And I was with 00:06:55.100 --> 00:06:59.120 a male who was a resident at the time and you 00:06:59.120 --> 00:07:03.560 know a couple years ahead of me and he decided 00:07:03.560 --> 00:07:06.959 that it was he could uh you know make an advance 00:07:06.959 --> 00:07:10.079 on me and he told me you know if i he if i was 00:07:10.079 --> 00:07:12.550 gonna Go to his residency program where he worked. 00:07:12.829 --> 00:07:14.649 He told me that he may not be able to control 00:07:14.649 --> 00:07:16.689 himself around me. And then he put his hand on 00:07:16.689 --> 00:07:19.290 my leg and I was alone. I was, you know, you 00:07:19.290 --> 00:07:21.290 know, his night shift is probably like 2 a .m. 00:07:21.370 --> 00:07:23.550 in a hospital. There were no other residents 00:07:23.550 --> 00:07:25.389 around us. There was no other medical students. 00:07:25.649 --> 00:07:27.750 And I was able to kind of very strongly in that 00:07:27.750 --> 00:07:29.850 moment say, buddy, you're going to have to get 00:07:29.850 --> 00:07:31.829 over that, which I think was pretty awesome in 00:07:31.829 --> 00:07:33.670 the fact that I don't know if I was pretty awesome. 00:07:33.949 --> 00:07:37.040 Same response, you know, now. I can't believe 00:07:37.040 --> 00:07:38.339 that, you know, I had something just kind of 00:07:38.339 --> 00:07:39.779 come over me was like you're and that kind of 00:07:39.779 --> 00:07:42.019 was like stood up kind of pushed it in my way. 00:07:42.079 --> 00:07:43.220 I was like, you're just gonna have to get over 00:07:43.220 --> 00:07:45.459 that. And honestly, we were able to continue 00:07:45.459 --> 00:07:47.740 working the rest of that evening and it didn't 00:07:47.740 --> 00:07:49.620 end up, you know, it didn't go home, but I just 00:07:49.620 --> 00:07:52.420 was like really stern and really strong. But 00:07:52.420 --> 00:07:54.920 then I went home after that night shift and I 00:07:54.920 --> 00:07:57.339 came home and I was in tears. I was really just 00:07:57.339 --> 00:07:59.639 upset because I felt like not only was somebody 00:07:59.639 --> 00:08:02.519 trying to take advantage of me, who is in a authoritative 00:08:02.519 --> 00:08:05.100 position, but then this was a residency program 00:08:05.100 --> 00:08:07.459 I was interested in. And I was then scared because, 00:08:07.639 --> 00:08:10.939 OK, what if I get in? And he had mentioned that 00:08:10.939 --> 00:08:12.879 he might become the chief resident. And I thought 00:08:12.879 --> 00:08:15.829 there's all this power dynamic. And so. I was 00:08:15.829 --> 00:08:20.009 really scared. And so I took a couple days to 00:08:20.009 --> 00:08:23.269 try to figure out what do I do? Do I go report 00:08:23.269 --> 00:08:25.370 this? But what if it's the program I want to 00:08:25.370 --> 00:08:29.180 go to? Will I be, you know? Will I not get into 00:08:29.180 --> 00:08:31.540 my residency program of my dreams anymore? Like 00:08:31.540 --> 00:08:33.159 what's going to happen? And so it was a really 00:08:33.159 --> 00:08:36.519 hard couple days sitting there and I ended up 00:08:36.519 --> 00:08:40.159 going to my medical school student affairs office 00:08:40.159 --> 00:08:42.200 and there was a lady that worked in there and 00:08:42.200 --> 00:08:44.639 she was one of the coordinators and I remember 00:08:44.639 --> 00:08:47.019 I took a moment to go talk to her because I remember 00:08:47.019 --> 00:08:49.600 she had just always been so kind and open and 00:08:49.600 --> 00:08:52.379 warm and I thought okay this is my chance and 00:08:52.379 --> 00:08:55.360 so I told her what happened and she immediately 00:08:55.360 --> 00:08:57.950 took me to another room and she got you know 00:08:57.950 --> 00:08:59.850 an assistant dean involved but she did it in 00:08:59.850 --> 00:09:01.850 such a supportive and caring way that it felt 00:09:01.850 --> 00:09:05.870 like I had an advocate on my side and that experience 00:09:05.870 --> 00:09:09.570 just really rocked me and not to go into like 00:09:09.570 --> 00:09:11.769 further details along the line but There were 00:09:11.769 --> 00:09:13.490 some things that came out of that that were kind 00:09:13.490 --> 00:09:16.009 of hard that I ended up having to pay some backlash 00:09:16.009 --> 00:09:19.090 for when it came out. There were some people, 00:09:19.350 --> 00:09:21.169 even some faculty that had found out what happened, 00:09:21.309 --> 00:09:23.830 and they said, oh, well, she should probably 00:09:23.830 --> 00:09:26.269 just get over it. She's probably being dramatic. 00:09:26.889 --> 00:09:28.929 And I think that's just something really difficult. 00:09:28.950 --> 00:09:32.269 And it's weighed on me for well over a decade 00:09:32.269 --> 00:09:34.610 at this point. And so it shapes me as when I 00:09:34.610 --> 00:09:37.139 work with medical students or residents. I feel 00:09:37.139 --> 00:09:39.340 really passionately that this should not, this 00:09:39.340 --> 00:09:41.240 should not happen. And I'm sure much, much worse 00:09:41.240 --> 00:09:44.019 has happened in other, you know, maybe programs 00:09:44.019 --> 00:09:45.799 and other women have not felt like they could 00:09:45.799 --> 00:09:48.759 speak out. They didn't have somebody like that 00:09:48.759 --> 00:09:51.220 really kind of coordinator. And they sat there 00:09:51.220 --> 00:09:52.820 and they said, I'm just so scared. I'm not going 00:09:52.820 --> 00:09:54.519 to get the residency program or something might 00:09:54.519 --> 00:09:56.779 happen or someone may not believe me or maybe 00:09:56.779 --> 00:09:59.299 something much worse happened to them. So I think 00:09:59.299 --> 00:10:01.179 that sometimes it's a moment that we do need 00:10:01.179 --> 00:10:03.259 to share these stories. We do need to talk about 00:10:03.259 --> 00:10:06.440 it and we need to make people aware. that yes, 00:10:06.620 --> 00:10:09.019 our residency programs, our medical school curriculum 00:10:09.019 --> 00:10:13.100 and our ACGME things that are in safeguards are 00:10:13.100 --> 00:10:16.200 supposed to protect us. They have evolved over 00:10:16.200 --> 00:10:18.980 the last 20 years or so, and they have become 00:10:18.980 --> 00:10:21.600 much, much more supportive, Title IX, all these 00:10:21.600 --> 00:10:23.240 other things that really are created there to 00:10:23.240 --> 00:10:25.419 help make us feel supported. But there are things 00:10:25.419 --> 00:10:28.019 that still can get lost along the way. And we 00:10:28.019 --> 00:10:29.860 really just want to make sure that we are showing 00:10:29.860 --> 00:10:32.480 up for other women. And sometimes it does take 00:10:32.990 --> 00:10:35.710 um, other women to talk about their stories so 00:10:35.710 --> 00:10:37.070 that somebody else may come to the forefront 00:10:37.070 --> 00:10:39.549 and say, Hey, that happened to me too. Or if 00:10:39.549 --> 00:10:41.929 that does happen to me, how will I respond? And 00:10:41.929 --> 00:10:43.750 it may not just be women. Obviously there's can 00:10:43.750 --> 00:10:45.529 be some male colleagues that have these experiences 00:10:45.529 --> 00:10:48.309 as well. But I ended up having to work with this 00:10:48.309 --> 00:10:51.289 around the same person for a few years. And so 00:10:51.289 --> 00:10:53.830 it was a really difficult situation for several 00:10:53.830 --> 00:10:57.490 years. And although I felt like I handled it 00:10:57.490 --> 00:11:00.389 the best I possibly could and everything, you 00:11:00.389 --> 00:11:02.539 know, in my life I feel like has turned out well 00:11:02.539 --> 00:11:04.379 it's still something that weighs on me over a 00:11:04.379 --> 00:11:06.539 decade later and I'm hoping I can turn that around 00:11:06.539 --> 00:11:09.720 to be something I can help others with during 00:11:09.720 --> 00:11:13.960 their medical career journey. I think first of 00:11:13.960 --> 00:11:15.879 all I was really brave of you I think to be able 00:11:15.879 --> 00:11:19.580 to speak up and like advocate for yourself I 00:11:19.580 --> 00:11:21.759 think taking that first step even to like reach 00:11:21.759 --> 00:11:24.559 out to someone who's kind and I think that's 00:11:24.559 --> 00:11:27.120 something people struggle with and the other 00:11:27.120 --> 00:11:29.340 part of it's that like you were there and the 00:11:29.340 --> 00:11:31.539 systems at your school were there but the systems 00:11:31.539 --> 00:11:35.700 like in societally and bigger than that we're 00:11:35.700 --> 00:11:37.879 not caught up to where they need it to be to 00:11:37.879 --> 00:11:40.480 be able to support you and help you and fix the 00:11:40.480 --> 00:11:43.080 situation and not create a situation where this 00:11:43.080 --> 00:11:45.360 could happen again. But I think you taking that 00:11:45.360 --> 00:11:48.299 step to speak up speaks like it's very it's vulnerable 00:11:48.299 --> 00:11:50.779 and brave and I think they also thank you for 00:11:50.779 --> 00:11:53.480 sharing that like even after some of course like 00:11:53.480 --> 00:11:56.120 that weighs on you that was a very like a little 00:11:56.120 --> 00:11:58.100 incident that happened, especially early in your 00:11:58.100 --> 00:12:00.659 training. And if it's a program you want it to 00:12:00.659 --> 00:12:03.299 be at too, like that, like, I think that's something 00:12:03.299 --> 00:12:05.440 like even without an incident, you're like always 00:12:05.440 --> 00:12:06.860 thinking about like, are you doing everything 00:12:06.860 --> 00:12:09.600 correctly? When you're on a rotation? Am I like 00:12:09.600 --> 00:12:12.159 being judged for how I am? And like, so this 00:12:12.159 --> 00:12:15.799 is like something bigger than just like the everyday 00:12:15.799 --> 00:12:19.539 like constant like, like the thoughts that go 00:12:19.539 --> 00:12:21.960 through a medical student's brain. Yeah, it's 00:12:21.960 --> 00:12:23.720 not fair, right? Like we have enough on our minds 00:12:23.720 --> 00:12:26.000 that we essentially, you know, as women and all 00:12:26.000 --> 00:12:27.580 these other things we think about every single 00:12:27.580 --> 00:12:29.879 day, we're trying, especially in some some, you 00:12:29.879 --> 00:12:31.919 know, male dominated, you know, fields as well 00:12:31.919 --> 00:12:33.659 as rotations where you're sitting there and, 00:12:33.659 --> 00:12:36.820 you know, I'm not a very tall person. And I can 00:12:36.820 --> 00:12:38.799 tell you half the time they're like, look right 00:12:38.799 --> 00:12:41.320 past me or said I thought I was maybe one of 00:12:41.320 --> 00:12:42.779 the nurses or something. So, you know, you're 00:12:42.779 --> 00:12:44.139 trying to speak up. You're starting to be louder, 00:12:44.259 --> 00:12:46.320 trying to, you know, have a good commanding presence 00:12:46.320 --> 00:12:47.700 without being overbearing. There's all these 00:12:47.700 --> 00:12:49.740 things we have to think about. And, you know, 00:12:49.879 --> 00:12:52.279 It just adding something like this in is pretty 00:12:52.279 --> 00:12:55.000 frustrating, right? I felt like it was just frustrating 00:12:55.000 --> 00:12:58.940 that, you know, it was scary. It was frustrating. 00:12:59.000 --> 00:13:00.879 And then it was just unfortunate. And then, of 00:13:00.879 --> 00:13:03.039 course, I don't necessarily think that it probably 00:13:03.039 --> 00:13:05.940 was handled. all the best ways afterwards as 00:13:05.940 --> 00:13:08.299 well. I mean, at one point I got offered the 00:13:08.299 --> 00:13:09.779 residency position, but they're like, would you 00:13:09.779 --> 00:13:11.799 like to move to a different city? Like, you don't 00:13:11.799 --> 00:13:13.200 have to do it in this city. You could do it in 00:13:13.200 --> 00:13:14.879 a different city that we could transfer programs. 00:13:14.940 --> 00:13:17.820 I'm like, no, I didn't do anything wrong. So 00:13:17.820 --> 00:13:19.539 I think that it's one of those things that, yeah, 00:13:20.059 --> 00:13:23.500 the systems are there, but they still may need 00:13:23.500 --> 00:13:27.690 people to speak up and be strong to help. set 00:13:27.690 --> 00:13:30.110 the right and create a better system for people 00:13:30.110 --> 00:13:33.970 that come after me. I hope that somebody later 00:13:33.970 --> 00:13:38.759 on would have a a better experience that they 00:13:38.759 --> 00:13:40.639 did have to report it or something like that. 00:13:40.960 --> 00:13:42.720 But I mean, one of the awesome things is that 00:13:42.720 --> 00:13:45.840 I mean, really nice coordinator ended up becoming 00:13:45.840 --> 00:13:48.940 really high level up in the medical school. And 00:13:48.940 --> 00:13:51.100 so I just know people like that, you know, they 00:13:51.100 --> 00:13:52.600 are the women that are making changes. There 00:13:52.600 --> 00:13:54.179 are the women that are going to be looking out 00:13:54.179 --> 00:13:56.440 for others if this incident were to happen again. 00:13:56.480 --> 00:13:59.360 So I'm proud to know that, you know, she is one 00:13:59.360 --> 00:14:03.330 of those change makers that is there. Yeah. No, 00:14:03.330 --> 00:14:06.629 that's really like, I think we make the change 00:14:06.629 --> 00:14:08.870 happen. We have to be part of the conversations 00:14:08.870 --> 00:14:12.509 and we have to it's hard. But I think sometimes 00:14:12.509 --> 00:14:15.250 having like women that have done it before and 00:14:15.250 --> 00:14:20.269 having allies in your space, male or female, 00:14:21.570 --> 00:14:24.549 or gender neutral, like, I think having people 00:14:24.549 --> 00:14:28.110 that can support you and be advocates alongside 00:14:28.110 --> 00:14:31.509 you is really important. My next question is 00:14:31.509 --> 00:14:34.409 kind of going to go on a whole other realm of 00:14:34.409 --> 00:14:37.289 deep and a different side of things in terms 00:14:37.289 --> 00:14:41.210 of like what women face. I think the next question 00:14:41.210 --> 00:14:44.350 I'd ask you about was going to be about infertility 00:14:44.350 --> 00:14:46.850 and how deeply personal that struggle is sometimes. 00:14:47.009 --> 00:14:50.590 And I think women, we kind of are in our like, 00:14:51.029 --> 00:14:53.269 we have children during training a lot of times 00:14:53.269 --> 00:14:55.929 as well. And we aren't able to openly discuss 00:14:55.929 --> 00:14:58.750 how that like infertility and things like that 00:14:58.750 --> 00:15:02.610 affect us as your experience shaped your understanding 00:15:02.610 --> 00:15:05.610 and empathy and resilience the way and how you 00:15:05.610 --> 00:15:07.690 support women who are experiencing this kind 00:15:07.690 --> 00:15:10.450 of thing, especially within our profession? Yeah, 00:15:10.490 --> 00:15:12.509 so that's definitely I'm pretty open about the 00:15:12.509 --> 00:15:15.850 fact that I've had a definitely difficult time 00:15:15.850 --> 00:15:18.740 with my fertility journey in life. I'm very lucky 00:15:18.740 --> 00:15:21.620 right now that I have two beautiful babies at 00:15:21.620 --> 00:15:23.919 this point in life, but that was a very, very, 00:15:23.919 --> 00:15:26.919 very difficult journey to get to that took almost 00:15:26.919 --> 00:15:32.279 a decade worth of. Help and assistance and medical 00:15:32.279 --> 00:15:34.440 things. So you're right though Like what you 00:15:34.440 --> 00:15:36.679 said first is that women especially in medicine 00:15:36.679 --> 00:15:38.879 were taught not to talk about these things at 00:15:38.879 --> 00:15:41.460 all At first even before we go into medicine 00:15:41.460 --> 00:15:43.220 a lot of times were discouraged from going into 00:15:43.220 --> 00:15:45.059 medicine because we're told you can't have a 00:15:45.059 --> 00:15:46.980 family You can't be a wife. You know family. 00:15:47.720 --> 00:15:49.320 It's just not possible to be a doctor and do 00:15:49.320 --> 00:15:51.399 all those things It's just really this broad 00:15:51.399 --> 00:15:54.960 statement and so, you know You might meet somebody 00:15:54.960 --> 00:15:57.940 who is a doctor and she also has maybe a family 00:15:57.940 --> 00:16:00.259 is married all these things and so I have this 00:16:00.259 --> 00:16:01.620 even to this day, a lot of people will come and 00:16:01.620 --> 00:16:03.600 ask me these questions about how can you do it? 00:16:04.080 --> 00:16:06.580 Do you feel like you can be a mom and be a physician? 00:16:06.740 --> 00:16:08.820 And I'll say, absolutely, I do feel like you 00:16:08.820 --> 00:16:10.860 can do it. And I think, like you said, we have 00:16:10.860 --> 00:16:13.360 to have people that show, not just talk about, 00:16:13.460 --> 00:16:17.519 but show them making this choice. And a lot of 00:16:17.519 --> 00:16:20.259 women are having babies during medical school 00:16:20.259 --> 00:16:23.639 or before or during residency. And so in having 00:16:23.639 --> 00:16:26.450 residency programs that are also helpful and 00:16:26.450 --> 00:16:28.509 designed to know what to do if a resident has 00:16:28.509 --> 00:16:31.389 to go take maternity leave and delay their graduation. 00:16:31.509 --> 00:16:33.850 Like I have several of my friends who had a baby 00:16:33.850 --> 00:16:38.110 during residency and that worked out great because 00:16:38.110 --> 00:16:39.750 they have great supportive programs are able 00:16:39.750 --> 00:16:42.210 to help with it. So I think that definitely showing 00:16:42.210 --> 00:16:47.960 people that's possible is a huge, huge gift to 00:16:47.960 --> 00:16:50.899 women who are young and are thinking about, OK, 00:16:51.279 --> 00:16:53.200 am I giving something up by choosing a career 00:16:53.200 --> 00:16:55.639 like this? And I don't think that is the case 00:16:55.639 --> 00:16:57.919 at all. Or they say, oh, I want to go become 00:16:57.919 --> 00:16:59.919 something this or that because I'm worried about 00:16:59.919 --> 00:17:01.879 not being able to have kids. And I think that's 00:17:01.879 --> 00:17:05.279 just not the two can go together very, very well. 00:17:06.559 --> 00:17:08.579 The statistics are there, though. There are one 00:17:08.579 --> 00:17:11.619 in eight female physicians struggle with infertility. 00:17:11.940 --> 00:17:15.440 And that was me. And we actually had to go through 00:17:15.609 --> 00:17:18.410 um, different fertility specialists. Um, I had 00:17:18.410 --> 00:17:21.589 to actually fly and leave where I work and fly 00:17:21.589 --> 00:17:23.809 hundreds and hundreds of miles to a different 00:17:23.809 --> 00:17:26.390 city to get treatments done. And I ended up having 00:17:26.390 --> 00:17:30.410 to IVF for both my babies and, um, had a miscarriage 00:17:30.410 --> 00:17:32.369 and had failed rounds of IVF. I mean, it was, 00:17:32.450 --> 00:17:35.650 it was definitely a long, long struggle. And 00:17:35.650 --> 00:17:38.529 I definitely think it has changed the conversations 00:17:38.529 --> 00:17:41.960 I have with my women, um, in my clinic. Even 00:17:41.960 --> 00:17:44.079 my men too, actually. Sometimes my men will come 00:17:44.079 --> 00:17:45.619 in and they'll tell me about their struggling 00:17:45.619 --> 00:17:47.900 with infertility issues as far as maybe their 00:17:47.900 --> 00:17:50.059 wife is going through this or that. And I will 00:17:50.059 --> 00:17:51.819 be able to actually provide them with the men 00:17:51.819 --> 00:17:53.660 with some great resources because I don't feel 00:17:53.660 --> 00:17:55.299 like people even focus on that. Even for my own 00:17:55.299 --> 00:17:56.900 husband, it would have been nice if somebody 00:17:56.900 --> 00:17:58.900 had been like, hey, here's a great book that 00:17:58.900 --> 00:18:01.619 even he could read and that would help show how 00:18:01.619 --> 00:18:04.619 he could support her. So I do provide those things 00:18:04.619 --> 00:18:09.319 to my men or sometimes women and my female patients 00:18:09.319 --> 00:18:11.140 may be trying to get pregnant and they haven't, 00:18:11.140 --> 00:18:13.579 and it's been over a year, I'll tell my male 00:18:13.579 --> 00:18:15.680 patients, like, hey, you need to go talk to your 00:18:15.680 --> 00:18:18.859 doctor about X, Y, and Z issues that could be 00:18:18.859 --> 00:18:20.759 related to your own fertility. Because a lot 00:18:20.759 --> 00:18:22.500 of times we blame it all on the women. We don't 00:18:22.500 --> 00:18:24.740 think about male factor infertility. So having 00:18:24.740 --> 00:18:27.549 those conversations is definitely there. I talk 00:18:27.549 --> 00:18:29.829 to my patients quite often about what their goals 00:18:29.829 --> 00:18:33.069 are, if they are interested in fertility treatments, 00:18:33.369 --> 00:18:35.569 that they have a lot of options, seeking out 00:18:35.569 --> 00:18:37.829 fertility centers, they can even travel and just 00:18:37.829 --> 00:18:39.869 showing them the different ways that it can be 00:18:39.869 --> 00:18:42.269 done, really helping them stay away from the 00:18:42.269 --> 00:18:46.769 crazy stuff online. Social media just absolutely 00:18:46.769 --> 00:18:48.369 pours down your throat and makes you terrified 00:18:48.369 --> 00:18:50.630 that if you're not buying this supplement or 00:18:50.630 --> 00:18:52.930 doing this or that, or that it's your fault if 00:18:52.930 --> 00:18:55.289 this doesn't happen. So just guiding them away 00:18:55.289 --> 00:18:58.269 from that into more evidence -based resources 00:18:58.269 --> 00:19:01.869 in a world that's just overflowing with misinformation. 00:19:02.730 --> 00:19:05.210 I think that that also is good because even as 00:19:05.210 --> 00:19:07.809 a physician, I was overwhelmed with even the 00:19:07.809 --> 00:19:10.890 medical side of it. I cannot imagine not being 00:19:10.890 --> 00:19:13.710 a medical experience, medical provider, and going 00:19:13.710 --> 00:19:16.210 through all of this stuff. But it's definitely 00:19:16.210 --> 00:19:19.930 expanded my empathy for my patients. I definitely 00:19:19.930 --> 00:19:23.609 think resiliency is there. I had a patient just 00:19:23.609 --> 00:19:26.950 this past week who had a first trimester miscarriage 00:19:26.950 --> 00:19:29.369 and it just broke my heart because she's in a 00:19:29.369 --> 00:19:33.990 very highly competitive career and she's got 00:19:33.990 --> 00:19:36.269 to show up. She does not really get much of a 00:19:36.269 --> 00:19:38.269 choice. She's got to show up basically the next 00:19:38.269 --> 00:19:42.069 day and so I was trying to help her to rest and 00:19:42.069 --> 00:19:44.390 take the time she needs for her but I could just 00:19:44.390 --> 00:19:47.309 empathize quite a bit with her where It really, 00:19:47.470 --> 00:19:49.410 it's awful, but you're going to be back at work 00:19:49.410 --> 00:19:52.329 within 24, 48 hours and keep on going and have 00:19:52.329 --> 00:19:55.130 to pretend everything's okay. And so having that 00:19:55.130 --> 00:19:57.730 ability to have those conversations on a really 00:19:57.730 --> 00:20:01.089 deeply personal level is a gift that infertility 00:20:01.089 --> 00:20:03.309 gave me that I was not expecting, that's for 00:20:03.309 --> 00:20:07.589 sure. I think that's really, it's a hard thing 00:20:07.589 --> 00:20:09.650 to go through. And I feel like many women do 00:20:09.650 --> 00:20:13.019 go through it, especially like that we hear about. 00:20:13.079 --> 00:20:14.660 And I think especially women, like you said, 00:20:14.960 --> 00:20:17.819 with high demanding careers, they can't just 00:20:17.819 --> 00:20:21.359 take a pause to like, give themselves the time 00:20:21.359 --> 00:20:23.160 and space to heal. And I think that makes it 00:20:23.160 --> 00:20:25.980 even more harder. The thing that's already really 00:20:25.980 --> 00:20:29.440 hard to navigate emotionally, physically, I think 00:20:29.440 --> 00:20:31.380 having to show up, especially we have to show 00:20:31.380 --> 00:20:34.490 up 100 % for our patients. Next day, no matter 00:20:34.490 --> 00:20:37.150 what news we get personally, might it be about 00:20:37.150 --> 00:20:39.710 our fertility or something else going on or personalize 00:20:39.710 --> 00:20:41.990 anything that that like I can understand how 00:20:41.990 --> 00:20:44.230 like hard that is. And this is an added thing 00:20:44.230 --> 00:20:47.490 on top of that. But like, I'm glad you were able 00:20:47.490 --> 00:20:51.369 to, I guess, take this really hard thing and 00:20:51.369 --> 00:20:55.230 find some like a little bit of positive and like 00:20:55.230 --> 00:20:57.430 empathy that you can help now connect with your 00:20:57.430 --> 00:20:59.589 patients that are going through similar things. 00:20:59.970 --> 00:21:02.529 And you can't take it away, but you can be there 00:21:02.529 --> 00:21:04.609 in support and camaraderie with them. And I think 00:21:04.609 --> 00:21:06.950 that's something that's really beautiful about 00:21:06.950 --> 00:21:10.309 the role we play in medicine as physicians, I 00:21:10.309 --> 00:21:14.640 think. Yeah, I completely agree with you. Now, 00:21:15.039 --> 00:21:17.299 on the other side of it, my next question is 00:21:17.299 --> 00:21:20.299 going to be being a mom and while practicing 00:21:20.299 --> 00:21:22.839 medicine, I'm sure brings you really joy, especially 00:21:22.839 --> 00:21:26.079 as having such a hard time conceiving and having 00:21:26.079 --> 00:21:30.519 your kids. How do you kind of like navigate and 00:21:30.519 --> 00:21:32.859 like balance the two, your professional identity 00:21:32.859 --> 00:21:35.380 and motherhood, and what's the journey so far 00:21:35.380 --> 00:21:38.750 taught you about yourself? So definitely like 00:21:38.750 --> 00:21:42.130 my my two babies are my absolute greatest gifts 00:21:42.130 --> 00:21:45.309 in my entire life And so I can tell you and I 00:21:45.309 --> 00:21:48.309 know that many of my physician colleagues have 00:21:48.309 --> 00:21:52.549 said this too that we are better doctors Because 00:21:52.549 --> 00:21:54.650 we are moms. It's something like something happens 00:21:54.650 --> 00:21:56.970 after you become a mom But also you're like, 00:21:57.109 --> 00:21:59.930 huh, I get it now So I actually will ask different 00:21:59.930 --> 00:22:02.650 questions to a lot of my paint my patients and 00:22:02.650 --> 00:22:04.990 my women who come in to see me I have a lot of 00:22:04.990 --> 00:22:07.009 women in my practice. I see a lot of women's 00:22:07.009 --> 00:22:10.880 health And so they may start talking about things 00:22:10.880 --> 00:22:12.759 like perimenopause. A lot of they're like, I 00:22:12.759 --> 00:22:14.380 think I'm going through perimenopause. And they're 00:22:14.380 --> 00:22:16.559 like 32 years old. And we're like, OK, well, 00:22:16.759 --> 00:22:18.180 that's a little early, but let's talk about these 00:22:18.180 --> 00:22:20.019 things. And they start talking about things like 00:22:20.019 --> 00:22:24.039 insomnia. They start talking about irritability. 00:22:24.420 --> 00:22:26.400 It kind of just. all these things that maybe 00:22:26.400 --> 00:22:28.279 the internet has taught you, it must be, quote, 00:22:28.339 --> 00:22:31.480 your hormones. Because we're women. So the internet 00:22:31.480 --> 00:22:33.480 tells us it has to be your hormones. And so they're 00:22:33.480 --> 00:22:34.779 just convinced that it's their hormones. And 00:22:34.779 --> 00:22:36.359 they're doing whatever remedy some influencers 00:22:36.359 --> 00:22:39.119 told them to do, or buying whatever else to balance 00:22:39.119 --> 00:22:40.380 their hormones. And they've been doing this. 00:22:40.400 --> 00:22:42.119 So they finally come in to see me. They're like, 00:22:42.400 --> 00:22:45.519 I just don't feel right. And so honestly, we'll 00:22:45.519 --> 00:22:47.799 start going through things. And if I'm not a 00:22:47.799 --> 00:22:51.200 mom and sleep deprived myself, and maybe I'm 00:22:51.200 --> 00:22:52.779 stressed or worried about something with my kid, 00:22:52.819 --> 00:22:55.869 or I just learned, you know, what it really means 00:22:55.869 --> 00:22:57.849 back to school time and actually how that actually 00:22:57.849 --> 00:22:59.630 is kind of a really stressful time for women. 00:23:00.390 --> 00:23:01.910 Before I was like, this sounds like a cute time. 00:23:01.990 --> 00:23:03.589 They take cute little pictures, but you realize, 00:23:03.710 --> 00:23:06.170 oh my goodness, there's class parties. There's 00:23:06.170 --> 00:23:07.950 this, there's that. It just feels like it's just 00:23:07.950 --> 00:23:10.769 overwhelming. And I'm a very type A person. So 00:23:10.769 --> 00:23:13.210 everything has on the calendar and everything's 00:23:13.210 --> 00:23:15.589 color coded and I have 16 different calendars 00:23:15.589 --> 00:23:18.890 everywhere. But you can see how all of a sudden 00:23:19.150 --> 00:23:21.809 these symptoms that sound like they should be 00:23:21.809 --> 00:23:24.069 quote what the internet says should be perimenopause 00:23:24.069 --> 00:23:26.910 and you're like no this is just the demands we 00:23:26.910 --> 00:23:30.230 put on women as being a mom you are not able 00:23:30.230 --> 00:23:33.170 to have a full night's sleep generally you know 00:23:33.170 --> 00:23:35.289 if you have little ones or let's say you're breastfeeding 00:23:35.289 --> 00:23:39.009 or pumping you know postpartum we never sleep 00:23:39.009 --> 00:23:41.349 when that happens um you know you're balancing 00:23:41.349 --> 00:23:44.349 things like mom guilt and school demands and 00:23:44.349 --> 00:23:46.410 if you have a great supportive partner that's 00:23:46.410 --> 00:23:48.609 amazing but and some people don't have that. 00:23:48.460 --> 00:23:51.819 I'm so lucky that I do have an extremely supportive 00:23:51.819 --> 00:23:55.130 partner. But my partner also, he works full time 00:23:55.130 --> 00:23:57.089 and he even has to travel sometimes and he has 00:23:57.089 --> 00:23:59.710 a very, very high demanding career as well. And 00:23:59.710 --> 00:24:02.390 so it also means that I have to figure out how 00:24:02.390 --> 00:24:04.490 to be able to ask or help and set boundaries. 00:24:04.490 --> 00:24:07.309 And I'm not going to be able to do everything 00:24:07.309 --> 00:24:09.990 perfect all the time. And so it kind of helps 00:24:09.990 --> 00:24:12.150 me ask questions a little bit differently for 00:24:12.150 --> 00:24:14.609 my patients instead of saying, well, you need 00:24:14.609 --> 00:24:17.029 to exercise more and set your, you know, go to 00:24:17.029 --> 00:24:19.859 sleep earlier and all these things. maybe she 00:24:19.859 --> 00:24:22.599 can't go to sleep earlier because she's waking 00:24:22.599 --> 00:24:25.299 up to pump or she's waking up to breastfeed or 00:24:25.299 --> 00:24:29.059 her child is not either co -sleeping and they're 00:24:29.059 --> 00:24:31.900 waking her up, kicking her. I think there's all 00:24:31.900 --> 00:24:34.720 these different ways that sometimes having that 00:24:34.720 --> 00:24:36.700 own personal experience just opens that door 00:24:36.700 --> 00:24:40.240 so you can say, hey, so tell me what your relationship 00:24:40.240 --> 00:24:43.299 with sleep is like, or tell me who's all in the 00:24:43.299 --> 00:24:45.619 home and how those relationships have been recently. 00:24:46.019 --> 00:24:48.920 It just helps me. open up conversations in a 00:24:48.920 --> 00:24:50.900 different way and think about things with less, 00:24:51.259 --> 00:24:54.099 let's order this lab or write this drug. It's 00:24:54.099 --> 00:24:55.920 more like, let's see how we can be supportive 00:24:55.920 --> 00:24:58.539 because sometimes my patient just kinds of needs 00:24:58.539 --> 00:25:01.460 to hear that some of this is natural and she's 00:25:01.460 --> 00:25:03.359 nothing's wrong with her. And she doesn't have 00:25:03.359 --> 00:25:05.859 to be taking a supplement and you know, her ovaries 00:25:05.859 --> 00:25:07.900 have not failed her and all that other stuff. 00:25:08.380 --> 00:25:10.880 So definitely being a mom has made me have a 00:25:10.880 --> 00:25:13.779 different perspective on having the opening conversations 00:25:13.779 --> 00:25:17.150 with patients. I love that it's like kind of 00:25:17.150 --> 00:25:20.390 opened up like less like rigid way of thinking 00:25:20.390 --> 00:25:22.970 of like we do this if we see this to more like 00:25:22.970 --> 00:25:25.369 yes we will do still do that but like let's also 00:25:25.369 --> 00:25:27.630 explore like what else could be causing this 00:25:27.630 --> 00:25:30.109 like let's talk through the social like factors 00:25:30.109 --> 00:25:33.569 a bit more and like give them the space to talk 00:25:33.569 --> 00:25:35.750 about it too because I'm sure they don't have 00:25:35.750 --> 00:25:38.049 the space to talk to someone about it too in 00:25:38.049 --> 00:25:41.849 their busy likes being a mom probably working 00:25:41.849 --> 00:25:44.029 or not working or whatever other demands they 00:25:44.029 --> 00:25:48.029 have. So no, I love that. You just said the phrase 00:25:48.029 --> 00:25:50.710 mom guilt. So my question is going to be about 00:25:50.710 --> 00:25:53.089 that phrase and how that I feel like that resonates 00:25:53.089 --> 00:25:55.609 with many women in demanding careers. That's 00:25:55.609 --> 00:25:57.349 something like even I haven't I don't have kids 00:25:57.349 --> 00:25:58.789 yet. But that's something I thought about, like, 00:25:58.849 --> 00:26:02.150 how do I balance it? How do you have you experienced 00:26:02.150 --> 00:26:05.319 it personally? And like, how do you experience 00:26:05.319 --> 00:26:08.220 it? And what do you think we can do as a profession 00:26:08.220 --> 00:26:11.440 to help better support physicians who are mothers 00:26:11.440 --> 00:26:14.700 in finding that kind of like balance and grace? 00:26:15.940 --> 00:26:18.559 Absolutely. So Do I have the question being like 00:26:18.559 --> 00:26:21.319 do I have mom go every single day? And it's funny 00:26:21.319 --> 00:26:23.099 like even on the days that I'm doing it, right? 00:26:23.220 --> 00:26:26.660 I feel like I'm usually like it could could this 00:26:26.660 --> 00:26:30.220 be done better and and I do I think that I have 00:26:30.220 --> 00:26:32.960 gotten to this stage of my career and I am approaching 00:26:32.960 --> 00:26:35.819 ten years out as an attending physician now So 00:26:35.819 --> 00:26:38.619 I do think at this point in time. Yeah. Yeah, 00:26:38.740 --> 00:26:42.220 I know right and I do feel like I have gotten 00:26:42.220 --> 00:26:46.549 to a space where I have really crafted my career 00:26:46.549 --> 00:26:49.549 choices and the pathway into a way that helps 00:26:49.549 --> 00:26:51.769 me have as much balance as you probably can get. 00:26:51.910 --> 00:26:54.390 And there are some weeks that the balance feels 00:26:54.390 --> 00:26:56.309 way off scale and some that I feel like, hey, 00:26:56.390 --> 00:26:59.009 I'm doing pretty good here. But mom guilt is 00:26:59.009 --> 00:27:01.329 there for basically everyone, I think I've realized. 00:27:01.569 --> 00:27:03.069 Even if you, you know, whether you're a stay 00:27:03.069 --> 00:27:05.109 at home mom, I noticed that I have friends that 00:27:05.109 --> 00:27:07.250 are doing this and they are still have some kind 00:27:07.250 --> 00:27:10.839 of mom guilt. I know that when I'm on maternity 00:27:10.839 --> 00:27:12.859 leave and I'm at home with my baby and just snuggling 00:27:12.859 --> 00:27:14.440 and loving and, you know, you're sleep deprived 00:27:14.440 --> 00:27:17.599 and just in that newborn bliss and exhaustion 00:27:17.599 --> 00:27:20.660 period, I still have guilt. It's like mom guilt 00:27:20.660 --> 00:27:22.720 that I'm not at work doing my job providing for 00:27:22.720 --> 00:27:25.759 my baby at the same time. My guilt for my career. 00:27:25.779 --> 00:27:28.180 I guess you can call that one career guilt. And 00:27:28.180 --> 00:27:29.980 there's just like there's constant. It's just 00:27:29.980 --> 00:27:32.480 it's a feeling of that. You're just never doing 00:27:32.480 --> 00:27:35.039 enough either way, whether you're balancing or 00:27:35.039 --> 00:27:37.359 not. And I think that. There are some really 00:27:37.359 --> 00:27:40.940 amazing examples around us of women that are 00:27:40.940 --> 00:27:44.500 doing it right. I know there's one that I look 00:27:44.500 --> 00:27:49.660 up to. I think she's pretty cool. She is a department 00:27:49.660 --> 00:27:53.359 chair for our health sciences center for her 00:27:53.359 --> 00:27:55.299 specific department. And there's not very many 00:27:55.299 --> 00:27:57.180 females in department chair positions, as you 00:27:57.180 --> 00:28:00.140 know, just in general. But she also has kids 00:28:00.140 --> 00:28:03.599 and she's at everything for them, I feel like. 00:28:03.759 --> 00:28:05.740 I see her at all of these things. I'm like, man, 00:28:05.980 --> 00:28:08.099 she's one of the busiest people I've ever seen. 00:28:08.119 --> 00:28:11.339 But I see her at their sporting events. I see 00:28:11.339 --> 00:28:14.700 her at their art things. She just is there. And 00:28:14.700 --> 00:28:17.339 she just takes time for herself at the same time. 00:28:17.640 --> 00:28:19.420 And so it's really inspiring. And I'm like, how 00:28:19.420 --> 00:28:21.700 does she end up at hours in the day? But I've 00:28:21.700 --> 00:28:24.799 kind of figured out that she figures out these 00:28:24.799 --> 00:28:26.700 other little ways and these little tricks. And 00:28:26.700 --> 00:28:29.359 she's Some of them is just being able to take 00:28:29.359 --> 00:28:31.359 your laptop with you and on the go, or having 00:28:31.359 --> 00:28:33.240 things installed on your phone so you can answer 00:28:33.240 --> 00:28:35.579 a message away from the office, setting some 00:28:35.579 --> 00:28:38.359 boundaries in some areas, but be willing to work 00:28:38.359 --> 00:28:40.359 a little bit extra in others. And so it's just 00:28:40.359 --> 00:28:42.240 really interesting to see, especially on this 00:28:42.240 --> 00:28:44.720 day and age where there are a lot of changes. 00:28:45.180 --> 00:28:48.640 And depending on what... specific residency, 00:28:48.799 --> 00:28:52.140 you know, what area you're practicing and there 00:28:52.140 --> 00:28:54.680 are more and more difficult and not difficult 00:28:54.680 --> 00:28:56.500 ways to make it work. You know, I have friends 00:28:56.500 --> 00:28:58.400 that have done more shift work ways that they 00:28:58.400 --> 00:29:01.480 do it. I have friends that do more like they 00:29:01.480 --> 00:29:05.259 work 75 % and then they do more admin volunteerism 00:29:05.259 --> 00:29:08.130 aspects on the other side. So it's just. All 00:29:08.130 --> 00:29:10.990 I can say is that look for the women who you 00:29:10.990 --> 00:29:13.430 feel like have it together in your field, because 00:29:13.430 --> 00:29:15.190 they're going to tell you they don't, but they 00:29:15.190 --> 00:29:18.309 may have some tips that really can be positive 00:29:18.309 --> 00:29:20.890 for you. She talks about this one about plastic 00:29:20.890 --> 00:29:22.809 balls and glass balls, and I had never heard 00:29:22.809 --> 00:29:25.430 that expression before. I heard that recently, 00:29:25.430 --> 00:29:28.190 actually, with a different podcast. Someone mentioned 00:29:28.190 --> 00:29:30.390 that, and of like, some of our glass can break, 00:29:30.869 --> 00:29:32.529 and others can bounce back, so it's figuring 00:29:32.529 --> 00:29:34.990 out which ones are the ones that are glassy. 00:29:35.130 --> 00:29:36.960 Exactly. That is the best thing for you to have 00:29:36.960 --> 00:29:39.619 like heard now as a as a student everything and 00:29:39.619 --> 00:29:41.259 going in residency and stuff because once you 00:29:41.259 --> 00:29:44.279 choose to have like your family that also for 00:29:44.279 --> 00:29:46.440 most people does a lot of things with their family 00:29:46.440 --> 00:29:49.160 become glass balls and they don't think they 00:29:49.160 --> 00:29:52.559 are afraid to let break. Well, not everything 00:29:52.559 --> 00:29:54.579 related to your family is also a glass ball that 00:29:54.579 --> 00:29:57.500 you have to realize, right? Like if I accidentally 00:29:57.500 --> 00:30:00.470 threw out my kids. drawing he brought home from 00:30:00.470 --> 00:30:03.490 school. And because it was in a pile of 50 other 00:30:03.490 --> 00:30:05.369 ones he brought home from school, you know, broke 00:30:05.369 --> 00:30:07.490 his little heart like, okay, the world did not 00:30:07.490 --> 00:30:10.289 shatter. I can fix this. I'm not a terrible mom. 00:30:10.470 --> 00:30:12.130 This happens. You know, there's little things 00:30:12.130 --> 00:30:14.490 where you have to miss something small, but you 00:30:14.490 --> 00:30:16.670 make sure that there is a, you know, if there's 00:30:16.670 --> 00:30:18.210 a play, there's some kind of event that you need 00:30:18.210 --> 00:30:21.859 to be at there's mom and son dance or grandparents 00:30:21.859 --> 00:30:23.599 day, you're going to make sure that is on the 00:30:23.599 --> 00:30:25.579 calendar. You have coverage. That is a priority. 00:30:25.640 --> 00:30:28.319 That's a glass ball that will not drop. But you 00:30:28.319 --> 00:30:30.339 can't do everything. And so finding the which 00:30:30.339 --> 00:30:32.400 ones are plastic and which ones are glass as 00:30:32.400 --> 00:30:36.000 a mom is really helpful. And I now use that analogy 00:30:36.000 --> 00:30:37.880 with my patients. I had one came the other day 00:30:37.880 --> 00:30:40.240 and she was like, well, my husband and I are 00:30:40.240 --> 00:30:41.880 talking because he knows about the glass ball, 00:30:41.940 --> 00:30:44.000 plastic ball thing now. He's trying to tell me 00:30:44.000 --> 00:30:46.200 that things I think that are glass are actually 00:30:46.200 --> 00:30:48.539 plastic, like getting Christmas tree decorated 00:30:48.539 --> 00:30:52.099 before Thanksgiving. Yes, that's a great example. 00:30:52.240 --> 00:30:53.519 And so I think especially when you're talking 00:30:53.519 --> 00:30:56.099 about mom guilt, just kind of figuring out where 00:30:56.099 --> 00:30:58.559 your boundaries are, your non -negotiables and 00:30:58.559 --> 00:31:01.160 then what is plastic balls and what is glass 00:31:01.160 --> 00:31:04.960 balls. No, I love that. No, this is like something 00:31:04.960 --> 00:31:06.700 I've talked to my husband about too. I was like, 00:31:06.819 --> 00:31:08.700 because I've heard like the juggling analogy 00:31:08.700 --> 00:31:10.440 before, like I think when I was an undergrad, 00:31:10.640 --> 00:31:12.819 but like the fact that the more I guess the more 00:31:12.819 --> 00:31:15.180 nuanced version of like, what the balls are that 00:31:15.180 --> 00:31:18.559 we're juggling, I think it was really especially 00:31:18.559 --> 00:31:20.059 impactful. I'm like, no, that makes complete 00:31:20.059 --> 00:31:24.089 sense. Like, like if I, I feel like like Let's 00:31:24.089 --> 00:31:26.430 say like cleaning, for example, like if cleaning 00:31:26.430 --> 00:31:29.069 the house, like if that's not necessarily a glass 00:31:29.069 --> 00:31:31.789 ball, that can be made into a plastic ball or 00:31:31.789 --> 00:31:33.609 we can figure out a fix. It doesn't have to be 00:31:33.609 --> 00:31:36.190 me or my husband. If we have the space, it can 00:31:36.190 --> 00:31:39.829 be like we have a robot vacuum running. We have 00:31:39.829 --> 00:31:45.339 a schedule. If we have money in the future, maybe 00:31:45.339 --> 00:31:48.019 we can have someone come help us once in a while. 00:31:48.259 --> 00:31:50.819 I think that's the point, thinking through creative 00:31:50.819 --> 00:31:52.960 solutions for things as well, I think is something 00:31:52.960 --> 00:31:57.160 I've heard. Think outside the box. And once the 00:31:57.160 --> 00:31:58.299 same thing, I tell people it's the same thing 00:31:58.299 --> 00:32:00.339 you do in medicine. So it's really about triage, 00:32:00.339 --> 00:32:03.480 right? And so like for me right now, we're sitting 00:32:03.480 --> 00:32:05.960 here. This is a conversation we're having right 00:32:05.960 --> 00:32:09.119 now. One of my kiddos needs to go to sleep. And 00:32:09.119 --> 00:32:10.880 so my husband and I are like, OK, he's going 00:32:10.880 --> 00:32:12.839 to put my baby to sleep tonight for that. And 00:32:12.839 --> 00:32:14.380 then when I'm done, I get to go put the older 00:32:14.380 --> 00:32:15.960 one who goes to bed a little later to sleep. 00:32:15.980 --> 00:32:17.960 And I'm like, OK, that's a good priority. I don't 00:32:17.960 --> 00:32:19.420 have to feel guilty that I didn't put the little 00:32:19.420 --> 00:32:21.180 one down tonight. I'll make sure tomorrow I'm 00:32:21.180 --> 00:32:23.519 putting him down because I need my snuggles too. 00:32:23.799 --> 00:32:26.660 But then I'm also like, OK. I still have to get 00:32:26.660 --> 00:32:28.940 their laundry done. And I've got a lot of laundry 00:32:28.940 --> 00:32:32.200 piled up. And I'm like, OK, I need my laundry 00:32:32.200 --> 00:32:34.359 done too. But you know what? That's a plastic 00:32:34.359 --> 00:32:35.960 ball because I got some extra scrubs I can wear 00:32:35.960 --> 00:32:38.740 tomorrow. The glass balls, my kids have to have 00:32:38.740 --> 00:32:40.400 their uniform ready for school. So we'll get 00:32:40.400 --> 00:32:41.740 that one done tonight. So just understanding 00:32:41.740 --> 00:32:44.759 it's not like a one thing. It can be they can 00:32:44.759 --> 00:32:47.579 broke down these tiny like marbles, right? Almost 00:32:47.579 --> 00:32:49.640 size. It can be like glass and plastic marbles. 00:32:49.740 --> 00:32:51.740 There's teeny tiny things. But being able to 00:32:51.740 --> 00:32:53.839 put one and say, that's OK, that can be done. 00:32:54.470 --> 00:32:56.690 tomorrow is so empowering because you'll know 00:32:56.690 --> 00:32:59.349 I'm still a good mom, I'm still a good physician, 00:32:59.529 --> 00:33:01.829 I'm still a good whatever if I just be able to 00:33:01.829 --> 00:33:04.049 set this one aside and plan for this one at the 00:33:04.049 --> 00:33:06.029 moment. It's just triage. We have to do it in 00:33:06.029 --> 00:33:09.779 the ER, the ICU. all the time. But we do it as 00:33:09.779 --> 00:33:11.880 like a student all the time too. Yes, you do. 00:33:11.900 --> 00:33:13.900 I think it's just applying it to also a different 00:33:13.900 --> 00:33:16.359 aspect of life. Yes, and I think taking all the 00:33:16.359 --> 00:33:18.180 skills you're learning now and applying them 00:33:18.180 --> 00:33:20.920 into like non -medical world is really, really 00:33:20.920 --> 00:33:23.279 beneficial. It just takes practice and you won't 00:33:23.279 --> 00:33:26.500 win them all. It's okay. No, it's definitely 00:33:26.500 --> 00:33:29.160 like practice. Maybe we'll hit perfection, but 00:33:29.160 --> 00:33:30.660 sometimes there's no perfection. It's just what 00:33:30.660 --> 00:33:33.819 we're content with for the day. Yes, that's very 00:33:33.819 --> 00:33:35.579 accurate. Very good statement there. I feel that 00:33:35.579 --> 00:33:37.559 most days. It's like, all right, it's not going 00:33:37.559 --> 00:33:38.920 to be perfection. It's just going to be what 00:33:38.920 --> 00:33:43.359 we feel good about today. You bear many hats. 00:33:44.140 --> 00:33:45.859 And my next question is going to be about that 00:33:45.859 --> 00:33:48.839 leadership path as women in leadership. We're 00:33:48.839 --> 00:33:52.519 really likely to navigate expectation stereotypes 00:33:52.519 --> 00:33:54.940 that differ from our male counterpart. How do 00:33:54.940 --> 00:33:57.380 you feel like, how do you lead authentically, 00:33:57.500 --> 00:33:59.400 but also create that space for one or really 00:33:59.400 --> 00:34:01.240 an honesty within your teams and your institution? 00:34:02.250 --> 00:34:06.630 So I definitely think it is difficult in some 00:34:06.630 --> 00:34:10.230 cases and even in institutions that are designed 00:34:10.230 --> 00:34:14.050 to support and understand that women in leadership 00:34:14.050 --> 00:34:18.030 do have different roles. Not always necessarily 00:34:18.030 --> 00:34:20.849 more difficult. I wouldn't say compare every 00:34:20.849 --> 00:34:22.929 single little bit of it, but there are different 00:34:22.929 --> 00:34:26.489 roles. I think that being a woman and being a 00:34:26.489 --> 00:34:29.519 younger woman in some of my areas of leadership 00:34:29.519 --> 00:34:33.059 has been an interesting learning curve. I think 00:34:33.059 --> 00:34:36.119 I've had to learn some things. not necessarily 00:34:36.119 --> 00:34:37.539 always the traditional things that people think 00:34:37.539 --> 00:34:39.619 of. Oh, you need to dress differently. You need 00:34:39.619 --> 00:34:41.780 to dress like this or that. I think it's more 00:34:41.780 --> 00:34:43.780 like I need to learn that when I walk into a 00:34:43.780 --> 00:34:46.360 room and it's an important meeting that I need 00:34:46.360 --> 00:34:48.619 to go walk up and shake hands with people as 00:34:48.619 --> 00:34:50.099 I walk in, you know, even if they're sitting 00:34:50.099 --> 00:34:51.460 there and they don't stand up to shake hands. 00:34:51.719 --> 00:34:54.300 I guess it's an example because there's meetings 00:34:54.300 --> 00:34:56.460 I've been in several times with a lot of leadership. 00:34:56.480 --> 00:35:00.460 But I noticed that some of my male superiors 00:35:00.460 --> 00:35:02.579 stand up and they give handshakes to all the 00:35:02.579 --> 00:35:05.179 men that walk in. But when I walk in is one of 00:35:05.179 --> 00:35:07.599 the only female females in the room, nobody stands 00:35:07.599 --> 00:35:09.340 up and shakes my hand. And so it's kind of like, 00:35:09.360 --> 00:35:12.119 OK, well, then I need to walk over there and 00:35:12.119 --> 00:35:14.059 I need to go shake their hand. You know, when 00:35:14.059 --> 00:35:16.079 I walk in the room and make sure we make it clear 00:35:16.079 --> 00:35:19.260 that I'm a leader in this room as well. So little 00:35:19.260 --> 00:35:22.260 tiny things like that are learning curves. A 00:35:22.260 --> 00:35:24.239 more interesting one was that I was just feeling 00:35:24.239 --> 00:35:27.579 really burnt out recently at work and in my office. 00:35:27.659 --> 00:35:32.659 And I really cute office space. It's nice size 00:35:32.659 --> 00:35:34.400 and everything. It's private office to myself, 00:35:34.559 --> 00:35:38.260 big window. But all I have in there is the very 00:35:38.260 --> 00:35:43.099 dark wood furniture and everything that's very 00:35:43.099 --> 00:35:47.300 traditional. It's very just run of the mill. 00:35:47.400 --> 00:35:49.480 Everybody has it. Well, I just kind of decided, 00:35:49.500 --> 00:35:52.070 you know what? I do not care what anyone says, 00:35:52.070 --> 00:35:54.989 I'm changing this all. So I bought myself a white 00:35:54.989 --> 00:35:56.969 standing desk because I do like to run back and 00:35:56.969 --> 00:35:58.769 forth in my office. So I bought this white L 00:35:58.769 --> 00:36:01.170 shaped standing desk that had like brown wicker 00:36:01.170 --> 00:36:02.789 on it too, which I thought was kind of cool. 00:36:03.050 --> 00:36:05.210 And then I was like, I'm going to buy a colored 00:36:05.210 --> 00:36:06.710 keyboard. And I was like, you know what? It's 00:36:06.710 --> 00:36:09.889 going to be pink. Yes. And then I bought like 00:36:09.889 --> 00:36:12.309 artwork and I put pink tulips in there. I put 00:36:12.309 --> 00:36:14.349 my name on the wall and I bought a couch and 00:36:14.349 --> 00:36:17.130 I bought a white marble table. I mean, you walk 00:36:17.130 --> 00:36:20.030 in my office now and it's really cool. for me 00:36:20.030 --> 00:36:22.190 and then I have my like eucalyptus essential 00:36:22.190 --> 00:36:24.269 oils going and it feels really like a relaxing 00:36:24.269 --> 00:36:27.469 calm space for me but if I had done this years 00:36:27.469 --> 00:36:29.590 back I would have said well when my bosses walk 00:36:29.590 --> 00:36:32.309 in they're going to think that I'm some 16 year 00:36:32.309 --> 00:36:34.849 old girl having a meeting in here but it's kind 00:36:34.849 --> 00:36:37.000 of funny now I'm like I'm glad they can come 00:36:37.000 --> 00:36:38.460 in. And if they think I'm a 16 year old girl 00:36:38.460 --> 00:36:40.760 having a meeting, that's great. But I feel good 00:36:40.760 --> 00:36:43.840 about this space. It is a bright, fun, pop area. 00:36:44.380 --> 00:36:47.380 It's calming. It's inviting. It's authentically 00:36:47.380 --> 00:36:49.420 me. And this is the space that they're coming 00:36:49.420 --> 00:36:52.260 into to have a conversation with me. I want them 00:36:52.260 --> 00:36:55.500 to feel that too. And so I can tell you I have. 00:36:56.179 --> 00:36:58.699 male superiors that are my bosses and they've 00:36:58.699 --> 00:37:00.679 come in and they've always been very complimentary 00:37:00.679 --> 00:37:03.400 about the office. So I think it's just kind of 00:37:03.400 --> 00:37:07.159 fun and it's very authentic and it's very feminine, 00:37:07.239 --> 00:37:10.000 it's very me and I just think it's a fun form 00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:12.880 of expression. I think that's something me and 00:37:12.880 --> 00:37:14.960 one of my friends were talking about is like 00:37:14.960 --> 00:37:18.300 taking space. I think for things that like Like 00:37:18.300 --> 00:37:20.420 should we should just take space for what we 00:37:20.420 --> 00:37:22.400 did it in the past. We're like, no, that's gonna 00:37:22.400 --> 00:37:24.659 be a goal. Like, we're not gonna eat hurriedly 00:37:24.659 --> 00:37:26.699 because someone else is done. We're gonna take 00:37:26.699 --> 00:37:29.119 the time to enjoy our food and be present. It's 00:37:29.119 --> 00:37:31.679 not gonna take more than like five minutes, like 00:37:31.679 --> 00:37:33.920 Max. So like take the space, hold the space because 00:37:33.920 --> 00:37:36.179 you deserve the space. So I think that's an example 00:37:36.179 --> 00:37:38.900 of that. So I'm so glad that I love that. Like 00:37:38.900 --> 00:37:41.019 I think some of my favorite faculty offices is 00:37:41.019 --> 00:37:42.860 the ones that are cozy. And I'm like, can I come 00:37:42.860 --> 00:37:44.519 sit here for a little bit? Can I chat with you? 00:37:44.599 --> 00:37:47.199 Thank you. My med students like it. All my med 00:37:47.199 --> 00:37:48.900 students come in and they're like, oh, Dr. Gray, 00:37:49.019 --> 00:37:51.559 your office. This is cool. And I'm like, yeah, 00:37:51.840 --> 00:37:54.940 well, I thank you. It's kind of a fun space. 00:37:55.019 --> 00:37:56.780 And if I have to be here every day, I want it 00:37:56.780 --> 00:38:00.059 to be something that feels authentically me and 00:38:00.059 --> 00:38:02.179 my space and uplifting. And it's a good conversation 00:38:02.179 --> 00:38:05.440 starter as well. So I think that is nice. I mean, 00:38:05.440 --> 00:38:07.139 it's obviously, I don't think anyone can be offended 00:38:07.139 --> 00:38:10.920 by pink and glitter and all the fun stuff. So 00:38:10.920 --> 00:38:13.019 I think that it's kind of nice. I don't think 00:38:13.019 --> 00:38:14.559 anyone should do something that makes anyone 00:38:14.559 --> 00:38:16.690 uncomfortable. But I think it is fun. I think 00:38:16.690 --> 00:38:19.269 it's a space that yeah, like you said, just does 00:38:19.269 --> 00:38:21.550 it does it take away from anything? No. And I'm 00:38:21.550 --> 00:38:23.329 at this point, I feel like I have established 00:38:23.329 --> 00:38:25.650 myself as a leader. I think I have the things 00:38:25.650 --> 00:38:27.809 on my resume to say that if I want my space to 00:38:27.809 --> 00:38:30.969 be pink and girly, that does not mean that I 00:38:30.969 --> 00:38:34.150 cannot do my job to the highest degree possible. 00:38:35.309 --> 00:38:37.849 And the pink and girly part reminds me of like, 00:38:37.929 --> 00:38:40.610 Owlwood's like, like Legally Blonde when she 00:38:40.610 --> 00:38:42.570 made her resume in pink and it's like scented 00:38:42.570 --> 00:38:46.409 and he goes, it's scented. Yes, accepted. Yeah, 00:38:46.510 --> 00:38:48.670 and I think I might be channeling that fully 00:38:48.670 --> 00:38:51.550 into my office at the moment. It's 100 % Elle 00:38:51.550 --> 00:38:53.429 Woods. And I think it's just kind of like, you 00:38:53.429 --> 00:38:56.710 know what, go for it. Why not? Yeah, why not? 00:38:56.789 --> 00:38:58.969 Like, it doesn't make you like your credentials 00:38:58.969 --> 00:39:01.610 and what you do any less. It's just you expressing 00:39:01.610 --> 00:39:03.489 yourself. And I think that's important sometimes. 00:39:03.630 --> 00:39:08.079 It's a creative outlet. Yeah. And lastly, I wanted 00:39:08.079 --> 00:39:11.300 to give you a little space and give us some advice 00:39:11.300 --> 00:39:13.300 as well. You've lived through and learned a lot 00:39:13.300 --> 00:39:15.480 and I feel like some parts have been really challenging, 00:39:16.260 --> 00:39:18.320 especially being a woman in medicine. What advice 00:39:18.320 --> 00:39:20.780 do you have to give younger female physicians 00:39:20.780 --> 00:39:22.920 and trainees who are kind of just beginning in 00:39:22.920 --> 00:39:24.820 their journey and especially some who might be 00:39:24.820 --> 00:39:30.309 struggling in silence? I think that is a big 00:39:30.309 --> 00:39:35.269 thought, right? If there are women that are struggling 00:39:35.269 --> 00:39:39.150 in silence with their journeys towards becoming 00:39:39.150 --> 00:39:40.889 a female physician, there are so many things 00:39:40.889 --> 00:39:42.889 they can be struggling with, right? And there's 00:39:42.889 --> 00:39:44.550 so many ways to approach it. But I think the 00:39:44.550 --> 00:39:46.230 first thing we need to do is make sure that they 00:39:46.230 --> 00:39:48.670 feel like they're not alone. It's really easy 00:39:48.670 --> 00:39:50.889 for medical schools or systems and institutions 00:39:50.889 --> 00:39:53.110 to say, oh, you need to find yourself a mentor 00:39:53.110 --> 00:39:55.869 and have them mentor you. I was never a person 00:39:55.869 --> 00:39:58.650 that was able to find a mentor. um especially 00:39:58.650 --> 00:40:01.650 like a female mentor. I've had some great advocates 00:40:01.650 --> 00:40:05.030 that have been great examples and I've had some 00:40:05.030 --> 00:40:07.710 even male mentor leaders that have been really 00:40:07.710 --> 00:40:10.809 great at giving me advice along the way but telling 00:40:10.809 --> 00:40:12.570 them hey you just got to go find a female mentor. 00:40:12.889 --> 00:40:16.150 I don't think that's a um a great piece of advice. 00:40:16.210 --> 00:40:18.849 I think more that things like what you guys are 00:40:18.849 --> 00:40:20.670 doing, where you're having conversations that 00:40:20.670 --> 00:40:22.610 are open and honest and something that they can 00:40:22.610 --> 00:40:24.869 consume even privately, right? Like a podcast 00:40:24.869 --> 00:40:26.590 is something you can listen to privately. You 00:40:26.590 --> 00:40:31.170 can watch something. There's so much more available 00:40:31.170 --> 00:40:34.630 information from hopefully more authentic people 00:40:34.630 --> 00:40:36.769 on even like social media. Now, granted, there 00:40:36.769 --> 00:40:39.610 are definitely people showing you all the positive 00:40:39.610 --> 00:40:41.590 fluffy sides of things right on social media, 00:40:41.929 --> 00:40:44.570 but trying to just see that you're not alone. 00:40:44.980 --> 00:40:47.260 If you're struggling, reach out to somebody. 00:40:47.380 --> 00:40:49.440 It can be somebody within your institution. If 00:40:49.440 --> 00:40:52.940 you are a trainee or a student, it can be somebody 00:40:52.940 --> 00:40:56.519 that you just think, hey, they seem to have it 00:40:56.519 --> 00:40:58.440 together. Kind of like where I was like, man, 00:40:59.159 --> 00:41:00.760 that department chair seems like she's just really 00:41:00.760 --> 00:41:03.219 got it together. And she'll tell you, no, I don't. 00:41:03.440 --> 00:41:04.960 And here are the reasons I don't have it together. 00:41:05.019 --> 00:41:07.280 But here are the ways that I feel like I am. 00:41:07.760 --> 00:41:10.659 I am doing it right. So just having conversation. 00:41:10.940 --> 00:41:12.880 We just can't be in silence. I think that's the 00:41:12.880 --> 00:41:14.599 problem is the key word is there is silence. 00:41:15.739 --> 00:41:19.900 I have had a resident that I worked with. He 00:41:19.900 --> 00:41:21.739 was a year below me that ended up committing 00:41:21.739 --> 00:41:25.659 suicide actually during the pandemic and stuff. 00:41:25.780 --> 00:41:28.059 And so that was just shocking to thinking about 00:41:28.059 --> 00:41:30.760 people suffering in silence. And we can't let 00:41:30.760 --> 00:41:34.179 people suffer in silence. Things like the sexual 00:41:34.179 --> 00:41:36.639 harassment experience could have been so much 00:41:36.639 --> 00:41:38.219 worse and I'm sure there are people who have 00:41:38.219 --> 00:41:40.619 had way, way, way worse and they are struggling 00:41:40.619 --> 00:41:42.579 in silence. I think there are people that struggle 00:41:42.579 --> 00:41:44.619 in silence with infertility and they don't have 00:41:44.619 --> 00:41:46.500 spaces where they can have these conversations 00:41:46.500 --> 00:41:48.639 and know they're not alone. I think there's women 00:41:48.639 --> 00:41:51.699 that are in rooms of all men and they're a woman 00:41:51.699 --> 00:41:53.199 in leadership and they sit there and they're 00:41:53.199 --> 00:41:56.119 like, what can I do so that when I walk in to 00:41:56.119 --> 00:41:58.440 a room, the men stand up for me and shake my 00:41:58.440 --> 00:42:00.880 hand just like they do for my colleagues that 00:42:00.880 --> 00:42:03.079 are male. we need to have these conversations 00:42:03.079 --> 00:42:05.179 every single thing i just mentioned each one 00:42:05.179 --> 00:42:07.679 of those points in my life there has been another 00:42:07.679 --> 00:42:11.119 woman who has been um some kind of support or 00:42:11.119 --> 00:42:13.219 just somebody that i could talk to they didn't 00:42:13.219 --> 00:42:14.639 necessarily fix the problem there's someone that 00:42:14.639 --> 00:42:17.340 i could talk to in each of those spaces and so 00:42:17.340 --> 00:42:20.000 people i'm hoping people like me can be that 00:42:20.000 --> 00:42:23.780 free other women that are in that training um 00:42:23.780 --> 00:42:25.460 still in the beginning of their journey or maybe 00:42:25.460 --> 00:42:26.980 there's already halfway through it who knows 00:42:26.980 --> 00:42:29.880 it you still can have an impact on but if you've 00:42:29.880 --> 00:42:32.380 had your own struggles being vulnerable and having 00:42:32.380 --> 00:42:34.679 these conversations and having them more publicly 00:42:34.679 --> 00:42:37.199 and authentically i think really will help people 00:42:37.199 --> 00:42:40.420 in the long term the rule is we just can't do 00:42:40.420 --> 00:42:42.500 it in silence anymore we need to speak up and 00:42:42.500 --> 00:42:46.059 do it together i love that i love the like the 00:42:46.059 --> 00:42:48.119 last part especially where you said like like 00:42:48.119 --> 00:42:50.239 people that have been around you just like I 00:42:50.239 --> 00:42:51.679 think continue to do that and I think that's 00:42:51.679 --> 00:42:53.099 something that's really important especially 00:42:53.099 --> 00:42:55.360 for trainees like even if they're a year younger 00:42:55.360 --> 00:42:57.480 even the med student like the thing I think you 00:42:57.480 --> 00:43:00.420 can continue you can start now and be that person 00:43:00.420 --> 00:43:02.739 and let be your authenticity kind of guide that 00:43:02.739 --> 00:43:05.159 and also find those people like maybe they're 00:43:05.159 --> 00:43:07.980 around you maybe they are like a nurse that you've 00:43:07.980 --> 00:43:09.900 become friends with maybe it's someone that's 00:43:09.900 --> 00:43:11.739 outside of the little pocket of people you're 00:43:11.739 --> 00:43:14.960 always around like I think there are I think 00:43:14.960 --> 00:43:18.030 if you approach things with authenticity I think 00:43:18.030 --> 00:43:19.650 people, the world can become a little bigger, 00:43:19.789 --> 00:43:22.050 even though we may make our world a little smaller 00:43:22.050 --> 00:43:24.789 ourselves, especially when we're hurt and we're 00:43:24.789 --> 00:43:27.349 like, dealing with something is heavy in our 00:43:27.349 --> 00:43:29.090 own brains. I think we tend to make our world 00:43:29.090 --> 00:43:32.630 smaller. But I think that like, asking for that 00:43:32.630 --> 00:43:34.730 help as hard as it is, I think is that first 00:43:34.730 --> 00:43:37.869 step. I love the way you phrased it. Absolutely, 00:43:38.090 --> 00:43:42.320 I 100 % agree with you. Well, thank you so much, 00:43:42.460 --> 00:43:44.099 Dr. Gray. It's been really nice chatting with 00:43:44.099 --> 00:43:46.400 you today. Thank you for sharing all that you 00:43:46.400 --> 00:43:50.119 have and all the advice you've given me and other 00:43:50.119 --> 00:43:52.960 people who are listening to this. We really appreciate 00:43:52.960 --> 00:43:55.800 it all. Thank you so much for having me. I hope 00:43:55.800 --> 00:43:59.920 it can help. And that's a wrap on this episode 00:43:59.920 --> 00:44:02.659 of Our Voices Our Future. We hope today's conversation 00:44:02.659 --> 00:44:05.380 inspired you, challenged you, and reminded you 00:44:05.380 --> 00:44:07.619 of the power of raising your voice. The fight 00:44:07.619 --> 00:44:09.760 for equity doesn't stop here. Join us in the 00:44:09.760 --> 00:44:12.139 movement, subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, 00:44:12.179 --> 00:44:14.480 and if you love this episode, share it with someone 00:44:14.480 --> 00:44:17.599 who needs to hear it. Until next time, stay bold, 00:44:17.840 --> 00:44:19.840 stay vocal, and keep the conversation going. 00:44:20.219 --> 00:44:21.860 This is Our Voices Our Future.