WEBVTT 00:00:14.059 --> 00:00:16.879 Welcome to Our Voices, Our Future, the podcast 00:00:16.879 --> 00:00:19.260 where we amplify the voices driving change in 00:00:19.260 --> 00:00:22.179 equity within medicine and beyond. Brought to 00:00:22.179 --> 00:00:24.379 you by the Gender Equity Task Force, committee 00:00:24.379 --> 00:00:26.660 of the American Medical Women's Association. 00:00:27.280 --> 00:00:29.679 We're here to challenge norms, break barriers, 00:00:29.899 --> 00:00:32.719 and ignite conversations that matter. I'm Rhea 00:00:32.719 --> 00:00:34.880 Manohar, and in each episode, we'll bring you 00:00:34.880 --> 00:00:37.619 candid discussions with leaders, change makers, 00:00:37.719 --> 00:00:40.479 and advocates working to create a more inclusive 00:00:40.479 --> 00:00:43.689 and just world. No more silence, no more waiting. 00:00:44.170 --> 00:00:46.729 You're listening to Our Voices, Our Future. Let's 00:00:46.729 --> 00:00:49.469 get into it. Today we're welcoming Dr. Kate, 00:00:49.570 --> 00:00:52.530 who is a board -certified neonatologist and digital 00:00:52.530 --> 00:00:55.950 creator whose work focuses on reshaping how we 00:00:55.950 --> 00:00:59.210 see women in medicine. In her clinical work and 00:00:59.210 --> 00:01:02.109 on social media, she advocates for authenticity, 00:01:02.530 --> 00:01:05.890 representation, and gender equity. Grouping physicians 00:01:05.890 --> 00:01:09.230 can be brilliant and deeply human without dimming 00:01:09.230 --> 00:01:12.659 their individuality. Her content blends education, 00:01:12.739 --> 00:01:16.140 humor, and honesty to amplify the voices of women 00:01:16.140 --> 00:01:18.659 physicians and inspire the next generation to 00:01:18.659 --> 00:01:21.219 show up as their full selves. Well, thank you 00:01:21.219 --> 00:01:23.980 so much for being here with us today. Thanks 00:01:23.980 --> 00:01:27.219 for inviting me. I'm excited to chat. Of course. 00:01:27.420 --> 00:01:30.219 So to get us started, can you share your journey 00:01:30.219 --> 00:01:34.260 to becoming a neonatologist? What inspired, what 00:01:34.260 --> 00:01:37.120 initially inspired your passion for this field? 00:01:37.200 --> 00:01:39.299 And were there any significant challenges you 00:01:39.299 --> 00:01:43.670 faced along the way? Yeah, so I had went to medical 00:01:43.670 --> 00:01:46.549 school to go into pediatrics. I kind of always 00:01:46.549 --> 00:01:51.090 knew that that was going to be my journey. But 00:01:51.090 --> 00:01:53.769 I actually originally was thinking about Heem 00:01:53.769 --> 00:01:57.909 Onk as my subspecialty and kind of went full 00:01:57.909 --> 00:02:02.409 force into that. And thinking about how important 00:02:02.409 --> 00:02:05.390 I think mentorship is now, one of the early mentors 00:02:05.390 --> 00:02:08.310 I found really changed my trajectory because 00:02:09.550 --> 00:02:12.509 we were having a pretty frank conversation about 00:02:12.509 --> 00:02:16.169 her experience going into Hemonk and her family 00:02:16.169 --> 00:02:19.969 life. And what she was saying to me gave me a 00:02:19.969 --> 00:02:22.830 little bit of pause about what I envisioned for 00:02:22.830 --> 00:02:26.110 my future. And at that time, she said to me, 00:02:26.270 --> 00:02:29.349 I bet every Peds Hemonk doctor you've talked 00:02:29.349 --> 00:02:33.289 to before me is a man. And that was true. And 00:02:33.289 --> 00:02:36.409 so her family experience was vastly, vastly different 00:02:36.409 --> 00:02:39.360 from what I was hearing from these other hemoc 00:02:39.360 --> 00:02:42.860 doctors. And so that was kind of a pivot point 00:02:42.860 --> 00:02:45.560 for me to start thinking about, were there other 00:02:45.560 --> 00:02:47.819 things I was interested in? Were there other 00:02:47.819 --> 00:02:52.000 ways that I could align my future life? based 00:02:52.000 --> 00:02:54.439 on what I wanted to do in terms of medicine. 00:02:55.639 --> 00:02:59.060 And so then that took me to this long journey. 00:02:59.280 --> 00:03:01.219 I thought about all sorts of different specialties. 00:03:01.919 --> 00:03:04.039 And at the end of my third year of medical school, 00:03:04.139 --> 00:03:08.319 I was doing an OB -GYN rotation, which I originally 00:03:08.319 --> 00:03:11.219 was like, this will never be for me. And I was 00:03:11.219 --> 00:03:15.000 so in love with it. And I loved being in the 00:03:15.000 --> 00:03:18.680 delivery room. But I had this moment where you 00:03:18.680 --> 00:03:20.539 know, they're all like, we have to deliver the 00:03:20.539 --> 00:03:23.240 placenta. And I was like, but there's a baby 00:03:23.240 --> 00:03:26.319 over here. And then I realized there's a whole 00:03:26.319 --> 00:03:29.979 subspecialty that gets to go to deliveries and 00:03:29.979 --> 00:03:32.860 only worries about medicine for the baby. And 00:03:32.860 --> 00:03:36.400 that brought me to neonatology. So that's kind 00:03:36.400 --> 00:03:39.360 of how I ended up there. That's awesome. Well, 00:03:39.360 --> 00:03:41.819 thank you for kind of walking us through that 00:03:41.819 --> 00:03:45.159 journey. Can you kind of share any significant 00:03:45.159 --> 00:03:49.770 challenges? that you faced along that path. Obviously, 00:03:49.930 --> 00:03:53.150 neonatology is more specialized than a general 00:03:53.150 --> 00:03:58.830 theatrics residency. Yeah. So, you know, I think 00:03:58.830 --> 00:04:03.580 when you look at the amount of you know, people 00:04:03.580 --> 00:04:06.580 that are pediatricians and then even our neonatologists, 00:04:06.680 --> 00:04:10.939 there is a wide number. There are a lot of women 00:04:10.939 --> 00:04:14.080 that go into pediatrics that go into neonatology. 00:04:14.580 --> 00:04:17.120 But, you know, on the whole, I think when you 00:04:17.120 --> 00:04:20.620 look at the numbers, leadership is still vastly 00:04:20.620 --> 00:04:24.379 male. And I think that is what I have noticed 00:04:24.379 --> 00:04:27.259 the most as I'm progressing along is that there 00:04:27.259 --> 00:04:33.120 is still this discrepancy between who is considered 00:04:33.120 --> 00:04:36.959 leaders and who is considered, you know, bossy. 00:04:37.259 --> 00:04:40.279 That has been well shown in literature that these 00:04:40.279 --> 00:04:42.860 qualities that are the same technically are given 00:04:42.860 --> 00:04:47.540 different sort of labels based on what the gender 00:04:47.540 --> 00:04:51.139 is. And then at the end of the day, the people 00:04:51.139 --> 00:04:54.259 who are making the decisions about who is hired, 00:04:54.459 --> 00:04:59.339 who is promoted, it's still not you know, equitable. 00:04:59.660 --> 00:05:03.399 And so that's what I have found with when I was 00:05:03.399 --> 00:05:05.680 going through everything and trying to think 00:05:05.680 --> 00:05:08.180 about where my position was going to be that 00:05:08.180 --> 00:05:10.839 there was a lot of grace given to some people 00:05:10.839 --> 00:05:14.439 and a lot of constructive feedback given to other 00:05:14.439 --> 00:05:18.220 people. And it seemed to fall along gender lines. 00:05:18.560 --> 00:05:21.379 And, you know, outside of even like the career 00:05:21.379 --> 00:05:24.959 portion of it, I've seen a lot that in terms 00:05:24.959 --> 00:05:28.139 of patient interactions. One that like still 00:05:28.139 --> 00:05:31.120 sticks out to me today is that when I was a third 00:05:31.120 --> 00:05:35.060 year pediatrics resident, I was supervising a 00:05:35.060 --> 00:05:38.180 male intern and we were in a room, we were on 00:05:38.180 --> 00:05:40.240 the well baby nursery actually. So we were there 00:05:40.240 --> 00:05:42.720 to see the baby and there was the mom and the 00:05:42.720 --> 00:05:46.699 grandma in the room. And they both were only 00:05:46.699 --> 00:05:49.529 making eye contact with my intern. and asking 00:05:49.529 --> 00:05:52.449 him questions. And so he answered the ones that 00:05:52.449 --> 00:05:55.089 he knew. And then when he got to a question that 00:05:55.089 --> 00:05:59.269 he didn't have an answer for, he was like, oh, 00:05:59.370 --> 00:06:03.290 well, you know, Dr. Kate. And the grandma said, 00:06:03.290 --> 00:06:06.250 I don't want to hear what she has to say. I only 00:06:06.250 --> 00:06:09.209 trust male doctors because they are smarter than 00:06:09.209 --> 00:06:13.290 women. And he said, she is supervising me. She's 00:06:13.290 --> 00:06:15.370 done three more years. And she said, I don't 00:06:15.370 --> 00:06:19.819 care. was like shocking to me to think about 00:06:19.819 --> 00:06:22.480 that, you know, I feel like we've progressed 00:06:22.480 --> 00:06:26.819 so far, but there's still that bias that exists 00:06:26.819 --> 00:06:29.459 for a lot of people that they just feel like 00:06:29.459 --> 00:06:32.920 there's something about, you know, men must be 00:06:32.920 --> 00:06:36.560 smarter. So that was one day that I was like, 00:06:36.779 --> 00:06:39.279 I really need to be more vocal because we have 00:06:39.279 --> 00:06:41.800 to start changing, you know, what the image is 00:06:41.800 --> 00:06:45.240 of who is a physician and what they're capable 00:06:45.240 --> 00:06:49.100 of. Definitely. Well, thank you so much for sharing 00:06:49.100 --> 00:06:52.300 that. I kind of want to separate to the things 00:06:52.300 --> 00:06:54.060 that you talked about and dive into a little 00:06:54.060 --> 00:06:58.779 bit more. You noted that a majority of the leadership 00:06:58.779 --> 00:07:01.899 positions, specifically in neonatology, but also 00:07:01.899 --> 00:07:04.500 kind of broadly across medicine, are predominantly 00:07:04.500 --> 00:07:07.379 held by men. What do you think really contributes 00:07:07.379 --> 00:07:10.079 to this disparity, even as women are progressing 00:07:10.079 --> 00:07:14.839 into these fields? I think there are a few things. 00:07:15.759 --> 00:07:18.759 And so there's been research and people have 00:07:18.759 --> 00:07:22.779 started to show the biases involved. So if the 00:07:22.779 --> 00:07:25.240 person that gets to make the decisions at the 00:07:25.240 --> 00:07:30.139 end of the day doesn't realize that they hold 00:07:30.139 --> 00:07:34.199 some accomplishments to one standard versus some 00:07:34.199 --> 00:07:38.639 qualities to a different standard, then that 00:07:38.639 --> 00:07:41.910 just pervasively continues on because they're 00:07:41.910 --> 00:07:45.269 the one who, at the end of the day, picks who's 00:07:45.269 --> 00:07:46.870 going to be hired, who's going to be promoted. 00:07:46.930 --> 00:07:50.730 And then it just becomes a cycle of people promoting 00:07:50.730 --> 00:07:55.009 more people that are similar to them. I think 00:07:55.009 --> 00:07:59.470 we also have talked about there is a pipeline 00:07:59.470 --> 00:08:03.889 in medicine, which is a leaky pipeline for many 00:08:03.889 --> 00:08:07.220 different types of people who are not who are 00:08:07.220 --> 00:08:10.740 underrepresented in medicine. And so as you go 00:08:10.740 --> 00:08:13.939 along, if you can't align with a mentor, that's 00:08:13.939 --> 00:08:16.560 going to show up and also be a sponsor because 00:08:16.560 --> 00:08:19.220 there's one thing is mentorship where you're 00:08:19.220 --> 00:08:21.300 learning that person's teaching you. But the 00:08:21.300 --> 00:08:23.000 sponsorship is really important because that 00:08:23.000 --> 00:08:26.759 person has to be in the room. They have to be 00:08:26.759 --> 00:08:28.660 respected by the other people in the room, and 00:08:28.660 --> 00:08:30.879 they have to be able to advocate for you when 00:08:30.879 --> 00:08:32.919 you're not there because there's only so much 00:08:32.919 --> 00:08:37.139 that you can personally do. And so The leaky 00:08:37.139 --> 00:08:40.200 pipeline is like we try to bring people in and 00:08:40.200 --> 00:08:42.820 then they can't find the sponsor, they can't 00:08:42.820 --> 00:08:45.740 find the mentor and so they end up falling by 00:08:45.740 --> 00:08:47.840 the wayside because they get passed over for 00:08:47.840 --> 00:08:50.600 the promotion, they get passed over for the fellowship 00:08:50.600 --> 00:08:54.120 spot. It starts so early when the pipeline starts 00:08:54.120 --> 00:09:00.100 leaking and then the point in training when you 00:09:00.100 --> 00:09:02.519 really need to start producing things if you're 00:09:02.519 --> 00:09:06.820 going to get a promotion is when people are in 00:09:06.820 --> 00:09:12.000 early family life. And so there is kind of still 00:09:12.000 --> 00:09:14.399 a lot of expectations that women take on a lot 00:09:14.399 --> 00:09:17.259 of responsibilities within their family life. 00:09:18.000 --> 00:09:21.509 There are even, you know, internal biases about 00:09:21.509 --> 00:09:24.789 the people in charge who assume you must have 00:09:24.789 --> 00:09:27.570 these responsibilities so you aren't available 00:09:27.570 --> 00:09:30.929 for these things. And so that contributes to 00:09:30.929 --> 00:09:33.429 then when it's time for promotion, they just 00:09:33.429 --> 00:09:35.470 say, oh, they haven't reached this checkbox. 00:09:35.470 --> 00:09:38.509 They haven't reached that checkbox because people 00:09:38.509 --> 00:09:40.509 are just assuming that like, oh, you're too busy 00:09:40.509 --> 00:09:42.789 to be on that committee. So you don't get offered 00:09:42.789 --> 00:09:44.669 the committee and then you weren't on the committee. 00:09:44.690 --> 00:09:46.570 So you can't get the promotion and it just becomes 00:09:46.570 --> 00:09:51.289 this like self -fulfilling prophecy. I love what 00:09:51.289 --> 00:09:55.029 you said, kind of differentiating the need between 00:09:55.029 --> 00:09:59.409 passive versus an active support type mentorship. 00:09:59.889 --> 00:10:03.610 I wanna dive into that a little bit deeper. So 00:10:03.610 --> 00:10:06.070 can you kind of share with us the mentors that 00:10:06.070 --> 00:10:08.549 have helped you along the way and maybe how you 00:10:08.549 --> 00:10:11.929 found them for those of us who are more early 00:10:11.929 --> 00:10:16.629 on in our medical career? Yeah, I mean, I think 00:10:16.629 --> 00:10:22.090 mentorship, it's such a difficult thing because 00:10:22.090 --> 00:10:25.990 I feel like it's a new concept when you get sort 00:10:25.990 --> 00:10:28.429 of into medical school. Like before that, it's 00:10:28.429 --> 00:10:31.490 just like, you have teachers, you do your thing, 00:10:31.529 --> 00:10:34.809 you take your tests, but once you're in medical 00:10:34.809 --> 00:10:36.970 school, you need these other opportunities and 00:10:36.970 --> 00:10:40.409 those other opportunities come through, you know, 00:10:40.509 --> 00:10:46.360 other people. And so it's about I always thought 00:10:46.360 --> 00:10:50.639 about it like finding some combination between 00:10:50.639 --> 00:10:55.559 a friend and a parent because I feel like the 00:10:55.559 --> 00:10:59.559 best mentorships you can have very open and frank 00:10:59.559 --> 00:11:03.159 conversations with, but you don't want just a 00:11:03.159 --> 00:11:06.120 blind cheerleader because you're still in training. 00:11:06.139 --> 00:11:10.539 So you do need someone who is gonna tell you 00:11:10.539 --> 00:11:16.000 it the way it is sometimes. But, like, I've had 00:11:16.000 --> 00:11:18.120 friends who have these mentors that they're scared 00:11:18.120 --> 00:11:19.940 of, you know, and then they're not growing with 00:11:19.940 --> 00:11:22.220 them because they're not willing to, like, ask 00:11:22.220 --> 00:11:26.179 them the questions or get the frank feedback 00:11:26.179 --> 00:11:31.480 that they need. And so it is a little bit about, 00:11:31.740 --> 00:11:33.700 it's almost like dating. Like, you want to meet, 00:11:33.799 --> 00:11:35.740 you want to see, like, what are their interests? 00:11:35.840 --> 00:11:40.019 What were their experiences? You know, I always 00:11:40.019 --> 00:11:43.279 recommend, like, looking at someone who you feel 00:11:43.279 --> 00:11:47.059 like their career is a career that you hope for, 00:11:47.259 --> 00:11:49.580 you would, you know, would bring you fulfillment. 00:11:49.580 --> 00:11:52.259 And then that's the person that you want to start 00:11:52.259 --> 00:11:54.159 by talking to. And then you see if it's a fit 00:11:54.159 --> 00:11:58.360 when you're talking to them. And it's also a 00:11:58.360 --> 00:12:02.659 lot about a reciprocal relationship. So I think 00:12:02.659 --> 00:12:06.240 as a as a student, I didn't recognize that as 00:12:06.240 --> 00:12:08.620 much. So that's what I always recommend for people 00:12:08.620 --> 00:12:11.370 is like you're going to get something from them, 00:12:11.389 --> 00:12:13.929 but you also need to be giving them something, 00:12:13.970 --> 00:12:17.509 which is pretty easy. It's just respecting people's 00:12:17.509 --> 00:12:20.029 time when you're sending an email. You don't 00:12:20.029 --> 00:12:22.710 want to just say, hey, you seem interesting. 00:12:23.210 --> 00:12:27.429 Can we meet? Send it very short. These are times 00:12:27.429 --> 00:12:29.889 I'm available. Are you available any of these 00:12:29.889 --> 00:12:34.149 times? And if not, I can send you more because 00:12:34.149 --> 00:12:38.269 when you're the student, I feel like it's easier 00:12:38.269 --> 00:12:41.330 to capture the person. If you're very upfront 00:12:41.330 --> 00:12:43.509 with them, they can just send you one email back. 00:12:43.690 --> 00:12:45.309 It's like once it turns into the back and forth, 00:12:45.350 --> 00:12:48.049 that's where you get lost in the email shuffle. 00:12:48.850 --> 00:12:52.730 So that is one good way to grab people. Just 00:12:52.730 --> 00:12:54.289 give them all the information up front and then 00:12:54.289 --> 00:12:56.029 they only have to send you back like, that sounds 00:12:56.029 --> 00:13:01.110 good this time. No, that's really helpful. I 00:13:01.110 --> 00:13:04.299 think a lot of times people put out this like 00:13:04.299 --> 00:13:06.779 oh you should reach out to people you should 00:13:06.779 --> 00:13:10.039 find a mentor but nobody really tells you how 00:13:10.039 --> 00:13:14.100 to do it or what that looks like totally and 00:13:14.100 --> 00:13:16.580 i remember when i was you know i always felt 00:13:16.580 --> 00:13:19.860 so silly like oh this person's so important like 00:13:19.860 --> 00:13:23.059 why are they gonna talk to me but then that became 00:13:23.059 --> 00:13:27.190 like this deferential like oh hi you know All 00:13:27.190 --> 00:13:29.470 of these things about you make me want to talk 00:13:29.470 --> 00:13:31.809 to you like let me know if you have any time 00:13:31.809 --> 00:13:35.370 and then that's like too vague because when you 00:13:35.370 --> 00:13:39.120 look at. You know like a full professor. when 00:13:39.120 --> 00:13:41.639 you look at their schedule, it's crazy. There's 00:13:41.639 --> 00:13:44.559 like, oh, maybe 15 minutes here. So if you make 00:13:44.559 --> 00:13:47.000 it easy for them, like, here's all these times, 00:13:47.039 --> 00:13:49.320 then they'll probably say, like, sure, I can 00:13:49.320 --> 00:13:51.460 do that one. But if it's like, oh, now I need 00:13:51.460 --> 00:13:53.720 to check my schedule, and then I have to email 00:13:53.720 --> 00:13:56.440 and then we're going to email again, then that's 00:13:56.440 --> 00:13:58.679 when every every extra email you send is just 00:13:58.679 --> 00:14:01.779 an opportunity for like it to be lost in in the 00:14:01.779 --> 00:14:03.620 inbox. So if you make it like a one and done, 00:14:03.700 --> 00:14:08.470 then the success rate is much higher. No, that's 00:14:08.470 --> 00:14:13.049 helpful. So before you had shared an experience 00:14:13.049 --> 00:14:17.590 That you had had with in residency with a male 00:14:17.590 --> 00:14:19.929 intern. And so I kind of want to talk about that 00:14:19.929 --> 00:14:24.649 a little bit How do you think that gender has 00:14:24.649 --> 00:14:28.710 impacted your career structure? I think in in 00:14:28.710 --> 00:14:33.549 a lot of ways it has because It is still true 00:14:33.549 --> 00:14:38.799 that I think that female physicians are expected 00:14:38.799 --> 00:14:44.759 to do a lot more in order to be given the same 00:14:44.759 --> 00:14:48.759 respect that their male counterparts are getting. 00:14:50.460 --> 00:14:53.899 And that comes from all directions. Another story 00:14:53.899 --> 00:14:57.559 that comes to mind is, I remember there was one 00:14:57.559 --> 00:15:02.500 time that one of the nurses had raised a concern 00:15:02.500 --> 00:15:06.659 about something that I had said and the person 00:15:06.659 --> 00:15:09.639 who was a man was giving me the feedback and 00:15:09.639 --> 00:15:12.879 was like, yeah, I know that's a joke, but you 00:15:12.879 --> 00:15:16.360 like you cannot make that joke. And I was like, 00:15:16.659 --> 00:15:19.259 that's interesting. And he was like, you know, 00:15:19.340 --> 00:15:22.779 the the nurse culture is that male attendings 00:15:22.779 --> 00:15:25.139 can do that, but female attendings can't. And 00:15:25.139 --> 00:15:28.539 it really like was this eye opening moment of 00:15:28.539 --> 00:15:30.580 like, so we're not going to talk about the culture. 00:15:30.720 --> 00:15:33.919 We're just going to say there's a different expectation 00:15:33.919 --> 00:15:38.269 for like, female physician behavior that is not 00:15:38.269 --> 00:15:45.750 male, physicians are not held to. And so it's 00:15:45.750 --> 00:15:48.090 good that there is awareness of these differences 00:15:48.090 --> 00:15:50.730 now, but there's still not a lot of action being 00:15:50.730 --> 00:15:54.990 taken about. Because for me, I'm like, if it's 00:15:54.990 --> 00:15:56.889 unprofessional, it's unprofessional for everybody. 00:15:57.490 --> 00:16:01.029 Or if it's OK, then it should be OK for everyone. 00:16:02.480 --> 00:16:04.960 But like that was like a real -world example 00:16:04.960 --> 00:16:07.919 that women are still getting Feedback that are 00:16:07.919 --> 00:16:11.299 not being given to men. It's it's they get a 00:16:11.299 --> 00:16:15.539 pass for some things and so then it becomes a 00:16:15.539 --> 00:16:17.659 thing where you have to say to yourself like 00:16:17.659 --> 00:16:20.460 well, you know, do I want to fit this mold that 00:16:20.460 --> 00:16:23.899 doesn't feel like it was made for me or do I 00:16:23.899 --> 00:16:27.919 feel like I am doing the right thing and Being 00:16:27.919 --> 00:16:31.539 myself and I I think that you know patients appreciate 00:16:32.009 --> 00:16:35.450 doctors who are humans. So I am like a firm believer 00:16:35.450 --> 00:16:39.570 that it's not about changing yourself, but the 00:16:39.570 --> 00:16:42.669 system is not changed yet either. So it becomes 00:16:42.669 --> 00:16:47.590 a little bit complicated. So what would you say 00:16:47.590 --> 00:16:51.909 to like early career physicians or even students 00:16:51.909 --> 00:16:54.950 who are going into these experiences and getting 00:16:54.950 --> 00:16:58.370 that feedback? It can probably be a little bit 00:16:58.370 --> 00:17:02.379 daunting and often discouraging. when you're 00:17:02.379 --> 00:17:04.839 either in these experiences or hearing about 00:17:04.839 --> 00:17:07.880 these experiences where you're being pushed back 00:17:07.880 --> 00:17:12.440 in a sense. Yeah, I think the toughest time is 00:17:12.440 --> 00:17:15.079 when you are in training because you do feel 00:17:15.079 --> 00:17:19.920 a little bit, you know, trapped by you're getting 00:17:19.920 --> 00:17:21.900 great. Like these are the people, right? They 00:17:21.900 --> 00:17:25.460 decide what your grade is. They decide what your 00:17:25.460 --> 00:17:29.180 file says, you know, about your rotation and 00:17:29.180 --> 00:17:32.799 and all that. And I think you know, that part 00:17:32.799 --> 00:17:36.839 of why I ended up sharing so much more about 00:17:36.839 --> 00:17:40.380 myself and my life on my platform is that I think 00:17:40.380 --> 00:17:43.599 that you end up in the microcosm of wherever 00:17:43.599 --> 00:17:48.180 you are. And so having the opportunity to find 00:17:48.180 --> 00:17:53.160 other, you know, mentors, other resources to 00:17:53.160 --> 00:17:56.539 really be able to get, you know, more information 00:17:56.539 --> 00:17:59.759 about what is something that is just like it 00:17:59.759 --> 00:18:03.259 is going to have to change versus like, you know, 00:18:03.400 --> 00:18:04.980 feeling like you need to change your personality 00:18:04.980 --> 00:18:09.799 because I think like being yourself and being 00:18:09.799 --> 00:18:13.230 authentic is the biggest strength. The you know, 00:18:13.250 --> 00:18:15.410 I don't think people really thrive in their career 00:18:15.410 --> 00:18:18.230 unless they are aligned with who they authentically 00:18:18.230 --> 00:18:21.730 are and so it's finding that fine line of you 00:18:21.730 --> 00:18:24.670 have to You know, there are some things that 00:18:24.670 --> 00:18:27.430 I don't want to do in medicine and it's just 00:18:27.430 --> 00:18:29.549 part of the job and that's fine So learning what 00:18:29.549 --> 00:18:31.710 is this is part of the job versus learning. What 00:18:31.710 --> 00:18:36.609 is like this is me and I'm not gonna change my 00:18:36.609 --> 00:18:40.480 personality because you know, you're saying like 00:18:40.480 --> 00:18:43.460 this is a doctor and that's different than me 00:18:43.460 --> 00:18:46.019 because what is a doctor? It's someone who's 00:18:46.019 --> 00:18:47.799 caring, someone who's compassionate, someone 00:18:47.799 --> 00:18:50.640 who understands a lot about science and who wants 00:18:50.640 --> 00:18:53.559 to take care of patients. So like that doesn't 00:18:53.559 --> 00:18:57.559 say anything about are they goofy? Do they like, 00:18:57.880 --> 00:19:00.079 you know, do they like fashion on the side? Do 00:19:00.079 --> 00:19:02.519 they like all these things that sometimes come 00:19:02.519 --> 00:19:08.519 into people's perception of who you are is at 00:19:08.519 --> 00:19:10.359 the end of the day, if you're doing what you 00:19:10.359 --> 00:19:12.319 should do to take care of patients and do it 00:19:12.319 --> 00:19:15.079 really well, some of those things don't matter 00:19:15.079 --> 00:19:18.880 as much. And so that's why I think trying to 00:19:18.880 --> 00:19:24.299 find people who can help you blossom within that 00:19:24.299 --> 00:19:27.859 structure, it may include going outside of where 00:19:27.859 --> 00:19:29.779 you're learning, where you're doing your residency. 00:19:30.920 --> 00:19:32.680 And so I think that's great that there's so many. 00:19:32.940 --> 00:19:35.980 physicians who are putting themselves out there 00:19:35.980 --> 00:19:38.359 now, because the more that we're exposed to, 00:19:38.380 --> 00:19:40.940 the more people can find what really does align 00:19:40.940 --> 00:19:45.200 with them. So I actually want to talk about a 00:19:45.200 --> 00:19:47.960 little bit more about the platform that you've 00:19:47.960 --> 00:19:52.359 designed. You have used social media to foster 00:19:52.359 --> 00:19:56.660 an environment for women to flourish within medicine 00:19:56.660 --> 00:19:59.420 and beyond. So talk to us a little bit about 00:19:59.420 --> 00:20:05.039 that. Yeah, I think when I was in high school, 00:20:05.140 --> 00:20:08.759 I remember one of my science teachers said to 00:20:08.759 --> 00:20:11.740 me like, well, you're really small and you're 00:20:11.740 --> 00:20:14.039 really blonde and you're a woman. So if you really 00:20:14.039 --> 00:20:17.740 think you want to be a doctor, just know probably 00:20:17.740 --> 00:20:19.920 no one's going to take you seriously and you're 00:20:19.920 --> 00:20:24.000 going to have to work harder. Which I hated that 00:20:24.000 --> 00:20:27.119 advice at the time. I Unfortunately think that 00:20:27.119 --> 00:20:29.579 that is true. You know, I was a little bit naive 00:20:29.579 --> 00:20:33.859 and thinking we were past we've moved past that 00:20:33.859 --> 00:20:41.039 as a thing but I Felt lucky that I was kind of 00:20:41.039 --> 00:20:43.539 stubborn and was like, oh whatever. This is what 00:20:43.539 --> 00:20:46.759 I want to do I want to do it and I Came from 00:20:46.759 --> 00:20:50.039 a bigger city. So I had you know more opportunities 00:20:50.039 --> 00:20:53.880 to see more things and so then I was thinking, 00:20:54.079 --> 00:20:55.720 you know, what if I was from a smaller city? 00:20:55.859 --> 00:20:58.119 What if I was someone who wasn't so stubborn 00:20:58.119 --> 00:21:00.819 and that was my only experience? And so that 00:21:00.819 --> 00:21:04.559 kind of is what inspired me to put myself out 00:21:04.559 --> 00:21:06.420 there in case there were other people who are 00:21:06.420 --> 00:21:08.339 getting this kind of like, well, you don't look 00:21:08.339 --> 00:21:10.859 like a doctor, which what truly, what does a 00:21:10.859 --> 00:21:12.819 doctor look like? Yeah. It's a silly thing to 00:21:12.819 --> 00:21:15.240 say, you know, you don't act like a doctor. Like 00:21:15.240 --> 00:21:17.880 those things like that. We, we tell people who 00:21:17.880 --> 00:21:21.690 are 15, that's silly. And so then I was like, 00:21:21.690 --> 00:21:25.269 well, if I was someone who was findable, then 00:21:25.269 --> 00:21:28.789 I could be someone that someone needs and they 00:21:28.789 --> 00:21:30.809 are in a spot where they're not going to run 00:21:30.809 --> 00:21:35.250 into that person. And, you know, it's evolved 00:21:35.250 --> 00:21:37.609 over time, too, because then I'm like, you also 00:21:37.609 --> 00:21:40.410 don't have to be like me to be a doctor. I think, 00:21:40.529 --> 00:21:45.910 you know, my point is that we kind of give this 00:21:45.910 --> 00:21:50.700 doctor thing An image a personality and at the 00:21:50.700 --> 00:21:53.160 end of the day what we really want is a physician 00:21:53.160 --> 00:21:56.740 and a full health care force that you know looks 00:21:56.740 --> 00:22:00.559 like patients and Our patients are not all one 00:22:00.559 --> 00:22:03.700 specific Everyone is different. That's what is 00:22:03.700 --> 00:22:06.539 beneficial is the more diversity we have you 00:22:06.539 --> 00:22:10.700 get better ideas people do smarter things and 00:22:10.700 --> 00:22:14.619 so that is why I was like I'm gonna show that 00:22:14.619 --> 00:22:18.539 this is outdated, that there is a specific stereotype 00:22:18.539 --> 00:22:21.779 and it's just whoever you are, if you show up 00:22:21.779 --> 00:22:24.960 as yourself, then you're able to give good care. 00:22:25.400 --> 00:22:29.240 Well that was really inspiring and I know specifically 00:22:29.240 --> 00:22:32.279 on the task force we talk about this a lot about 00:22:32.279 --> 00:22:38.180 how there is no one subset of doctor and what 00:22:38.180 --> 00:22:41.940 a doctor looks like and how they are sharing 00:22:41.940 --> 00:22:44.259 with the world has really evolved specifically 00:22:44.259 --> 00:22:49.200 as social media has evolved, we are kind of figuring 00:22:49.200 --> 00:22:52.000 out different ways to connect with people who 00:22:52.000 --> 00:22:55.059 may not have had that information or may not 00:22:55.059 --> 00:22:59.039 have those kind of mentors. So along those lines, 00:22:59.579 --> 00:23:02.359 I want to close us off with kind of an advice 00:23:02.359 --> 00:23:06.599 question. For young women aspiring to enter the 00:23:06.599 --> 00:23:09.500 field of neonatology or just medicine in general, 00:23:10.019 --> 00:23:12.400 what advice would you offer them to navigate 00:23:12.400 --> 00:23:15.069 and succeed in that field? where they may face 00:23:15.069 --> 00:23:19.390 gender related challenges. Yeah, I think, you 00:23:19.390 --> 00:23:21.710 know, to sum up what we've probably already said 00:23:21.710 --> 00:23:25.769 through all of these other chats we've had is 00:23:25.769 --> 00:23:27.869 just, you know, I think like the my biggest thing 00:23:27.869 --> 00:23:30.609 is you have to be yourself unapologetically. 00:23:31.009 --> 00:23:34.690 You are who you are. And I think I spent too 00:23:34.690 --> 00:23:39.589 much time probably trying to like tweak. myself 00:23:39.589 --> 00:23:44.569 to be part of this mold I had to be and I really 00:23:44.569 --> 00:23:47.549 don't think I felt like I was really thriving 00:23:47.549 --> 00:23:51.690 in my career until I just said like this is this 00:23:51.690 --> 00:23:54.170 is the person I am and I and I like all of these 00:23:54.170 --> 00:23:55.890 things I like all of these interests I think 00:23:55.890 --> 00:23:58.910 they make me more complete and so I think being 00:23:58.910 --> 00:24:03.240 able to say like This is me and showing up fully 00:24:03.240 --> 00:24:05.460 as yourself like that authenticity is something 00:24:05.460 --> 00:24:07.680 that no one can take away from you So that is 00:24:07.680 --> 00:24:10.400 the biggest strength that you have You know, 00:24:10.400 --> 00:24:12.140 the second piece would be definitely find your 00:24:12.140 --> 00:24:14.220 people which we've talked about they may you 00:24:14.220 --> 00:24:17.380 may be lucky They those people may be at your 00:24:17.380 --> 00:24:19.980 school at your program of they may be somewhere 00:24:19.980 --> 00:24:23.210 else. So look you know don't feel like you're 00:24:23.210 --> 00:24:25.549 stuck in your bubble that you've been put in 00:24:25.549 --> 00:24:27.789 and you know if you really can't find them anywhere 00:24:27.789 --> 00:24:29.910 then you then you build the community which is 00:24:29.910 --> 00:24:31.970 kind of the option that i took is like i'm gonna 00:24:31.970 --> 00:24:34.130 make a platform and i'm gonna build the people 00:24:34.130 --> 00:24:36.730 and i will put myself out there and i will i 00:24:36.730 --> 00:24:40.069 will connect with the people and so that um is 00:24:40.069 --> 00:24:42.650 another way that you can do it if you can't find 00:24:42.650 --> 00:24:45.730 you know within wherever you've been planted 00:24:45.730 --> 00:24:49.980 um And then the third thing is it's a long, it 00:24:49.980 --> 00:24:53.259 is a long career. So it's possible that, you 00:24:53.259 --> 00:24:56.339 know, in medical school, you don't find the right 00:24:56.339 --> 00:24:59.420 fit, but then there's residency. Then there, 00:24:59.640 --> 00:25:01.259 for some people like me, there's fellowship. 00:25:01.400 --> 00:25:05.440 And so kind of thinking along the long game of 00:25:05.440 --> 00:25:08.140 if you're not in the right spot right now, how 00:25:08.140 --> 00:25:10.240 do you, what are the next steps? How do you, 00:25:10.240 --> 00:25:13.779 how do you get to that spot? And I think what 00:25:13.779 --> 00:25:18.759 a lot of women struggle with because of the way 00:25:18.759 --> 00:25:22.059 that qualities are described about women is like, 00:25:22.180 --> 00:25:25.619 like, advocating for yourself can feel really 00:25:25.619 --> 00:25:30.900 weird, can feel icky, you know, standing up and 00:25:30.900 --> 00:25:36.400 saying like, oh, me, I, you know, but there are 00:25:36.400 --> 00:25:40.900 lots of people who will tout all of their accomplishments, 00:25:41.059 --> 00:25:44.599 they will remind everyone every day, you know. 00:25:44.589 --> 00:25:47.150 I've seen people quote their own articles, which 00:25:47.150 --> 00:25:50.049 I was in the beginning, like I would never be 00:25:50.049 --> 00:25:53.490 like, I'm the expert in, but it's you, you have 00:25:53.490 --> 00:25:55.609 to do it because if you're not like, I'm the 00:25:55.609 --> 00:25:57.890 expert, I did this, no one else is going to do 00:25:57.890 --> 00:26:01.210 it for you. So, you know, trying to advocate 00:26:01.210 --> 00:26:05.089 for yourself for opportunities that you feel 00:26:05.089 --> 00:26:08.430 like, oh, I've said to myself, oh, that person, 00:26:08.490 --> 00:26:11.029 maybe they deserve it more. And then it's like, 00:26:11.089 --> 00:26:13.329 well, if you don't put yourself up for it, then 00:26:13.329 --> 00:26:15.869 you're never going to get it. So kind of becoming 00:26:15.869 --> 00:26:18.869 comfortable with the discomfort of being your 00:26:18.869 --> 00:26:21.569 biggest advocate is the way that you're going 00:26:21.569 --> 00:26:25.299 to get the furthest. Well, thank you so much 00:26:25.299 --> 00:26:28.400 for sharing your experience of this and talking 00:26:28.400 --> 00:26:30.940 with me today. That's a wrap on this episode 00:26:30.940 --> 00:26:34.180 of Our Voice is Our Future. We hope today's conversation 00:26:34.180 --> 00:26:36.700 inspired you, challenged you, and reminded you 00:26:36.700 --> 00:26:39.400 the power of raising your voice. The fight for 00:26:39.400 --> 00:26:42.039 equity doesn't stop here. Join us in the movement. 00:26:42.279 --> 00:26:44.950 Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. If 00:26:44.950 --> 00:26:47.769 you loved this episode, share it with someone 00:26:47.769 --> 00:26:50.710 who needs to hear it. Until next time, stay bold, 00:26:50.990 --> 00:26:52.970 stay vocal, and keep the conversation going. 00:26:53.509 --> 00:26:55.250 This is Our Voices, Our Future.