Welcome to Our Voices, Our Future, the podcast
where we amplify the voices driving change in
equity within medicine and beyond. Brought to
you by the Gender Equity Task Force, committee
of the American Medical Women's Association.
We're here to challenge norms, break barriers,
and ignite conversations that matter. I'm Rhea
Manohar, and in each episode, we'll bring you
candid discussions with leaders, change makers,
and advocates working to create a more inclusive
and just world. No more silence, no more waiting.
You're listening to Our Voices, Our Future. Let's
get into it. Today we're welcoming Dr. Kate,
who is a board -certified neonatologist and digital
creator whose work focuses on reshaping how we
see women in medicine. In her clinical work and
on social media, she advocates for authenticity,
representation, and gender equity. Grouping physicians
can be brilliant and deeply human without dimming
their individuality. Her content blends education,
humor, and honesty to amplify the voices of women
physicians and inspire the next generation to
show up as their full selves. Well, thank you
so much for being here with us today. Thanks
for inviting me. I'm excited to chat. Of course.
So to get us started, can you share your journey
to becoming a neonatologist? What inspired, what
initially inspired your passion for this field?
And were there any significant challenges you
faced along the way? Yeah, so I had went to medical
school to go into pediatrics. I kind of always
knew that that was going to be my journey. But
I actually originally was thinking about Heem
Onk as my subspecialty and kind of went full
force into that. And thinking about how important
I think mentorship is now, one of the early mentors
I found really changed my trajectory because
we were having a pretty frank conversation about
her experience going into Hemonk and her family
life. And what she was saying to me gave me a
little bit of pause about what I envisioned for
my future. And at that time, she said to me,
I bet every Peds Hemonk doctor you've talked
to before me is a man. And that was true. And
so her family experience was vastly, vastly different
from what I was hearing from these other hemoc
doctors. And so that was kind of a pivot point
for me to start thinking about, were there other
things I was interested in? Were there other
ways that I could align my future life? based
on what I wanted to do in terms of medicine.
And so then that took me to this long journey.
I thought about all sorts of different specialties.
And at the end of my third year of medical school,
I was doing an OB -GYN rotation, which I originally
was like, this will never be for me. And I was
so in love with it. And I loved being in the
delivery room. But I had this moment where you
know, they're all like, we have to deliver the
placenta. And I was like, but there's a baby
over here. And then I realized there's a whole
subspecialty that gets to go to deliveries and
only worries about medicine for the baby. And
that brought me to neonatology. So that's kind
of how I ended up there. That's awesome. Well,
thank you for kind of walking us through that
journey. Can you kind of share any significant
challenges? that you faced along that path. Obviously,
neonatology is more specialized than a general
theatrics residency. Yeah. So, you know, I think
when you look at the amount of you know, people
that are pediatricians and then even our neonatologists,
there is a wide number. There are a lot of women
that go into pediatrics that go into neonatology.
But, you know, on the whole, I think when you
look at the numbers, leadership is still vastly
male. And I think that is what I have noticed
the most as I'm progressing along is that there
is still this discrepancy between who is considered
leaders and who is considered, you know, bossy.
That has been well shown in literature that these
qualities that are the same technically are given
different sort of labels based on what the gender
is. And then at the end of the day, the people
who are making the decisions about who is hired,
who is promoted, it's still not you know, equitable.
And so that's what I have found with when I was
going through everything and trying to think
about where my position was going to be that
there was a lot of grace given to some people
and a lot of constructive feedback given to other
people. And it seemed to fall along gender lines.
And, you know, outside of even like the career
portion of it, I've seen a lot that in terms
of patient interactions. One that like still
sticks out to me today is that when I was a third
year pediatrics resident, I was supervising a
male intern and we were in a room, we were on
the well baby nursery actually. So we were there
to see the baby and there was the mom and the
grandma in the room. And they both were only
making eye contact with my intern. and asking
him questions. And so he answered the ones that
he knew. And then when he got to a question that
he didn't have an answer for, he was like, oh,
well, you know, Dr. Kate. And the grandma said,
I don't want to hear what she has to say. I only
trust male doctors because they are smarter than
women. And he said, she is supervising me. She's
done three more years. And she said, I don't
care. was like shocking to me to think about
that, you know, I feel like we've progressed
so far, but there's still that bias that exists
for a lot of people that they just feel like
there's something about, you know, men must be
smarter. So that was one day that I was like,
I really need to be more vocal because we have
to start changing, you know, what the image is
of who is a physician and what they're capable
of. Definitely. Well, thank you so much for sharing
that. I kind of want to separate to the things
that you talked about and dive into a little
bit more. You noted that a majority of the leadership
positions, specifically in neonatology, but also
kind of broadly across medicine, are predominantly
held by men. What do you think really contributes
to this disparity, even as women are progressing
into these fields? I think there are a few things.
And so there's been research and people have
started to show the biases involved. So if the
person that gets to make the decisions at the
end of the day doesn't realize that they hold
some accomplishments to one standard versus some
qualities to a different standard, then that
just pervasively continues on because they're
the one who, at the end of the day, picks who's
going to be hired, who's going to be promoted.
And then it just becomes a cycle of people promoting
more people that are similar to them. I think
we also have talked about there is a pipeline
in medicine, which is a leaky pipeline for many
different types of people who are not who are
underrepresented in medicine. And so as you go
along, if you can't align with a mentor, that's
going to show up and also be a sponsor because
there's one thing is mentorship where you're
learning that person's teaching you. But the
sponsorship is really important because that
person has to be in the room. They have to be
respected by the other people in the room, and
they have to be able to advocate for you when
you're not there because there's only so much
that you can personally do. And so The leaky
pipeline is like we try to bring people in and
then they can't find the sponsor, they can't
find the mentor and so they end up falling by
the wayside because they get passed over for
the promotion, they get passed over for the fellowship
spot. It starts so early when the pipeline starts
leaking and then the point in training when you
really need to start producing things if you're
going to get a promotion is when people are in
early family life. And so there is kind of still
a lot of expectations that women take on a lot
of responsibilities within their family life.
There are even, you know, internal biases about
the people in charge who assume you must have
these responsibilities so you aren't available
for these things. And so that contributes to
then when it's time for promotion, they just
say, oh, they haven't reached this checkbox.
They haven't reached that checkbox because people
are just assuming that like, oh, you're too busy
to be on that committee. So you don't get offered
the committee and then you weren't on the committee.
So you can't get the promotion and it just becomes
this like self -fulfilling prophecy. I love what
you said, kind of differentiating the need between
passive versus an active support type mentorship.
I wanna dive into that a little bit deeper. So
can you kind of share with us the mentors that
have helped you along the way and maybe how you
found them for those of us who are more early
on in our medical career? Yeah, I mean, I think
mentorship, it's such a difficult thing because
I feel like it's a new concept when you get sort
of into medical school. Like before that, it's
just like, you have teachers, you do your thing,
you take your tests, but once you're in medical
school, you need these other opportunities and
those other opportunities come through, you know,
other people. And so it's about I always thought
about it like finding some combination between
a friend and a parent because I feel like the
best mentorships you can have very open and frank
conversations with, but you don't want just a
blind cheerleader because you're still in training.
So you do need someone who is gonna tell you
it the way it is sometimes. But, like, I've had
friends who have these mentors that they're scared
of, you know, and then they're not growing with
them because they're not willing to, like, ask
them the questions or get the frank feedback
that they need. And so it is a little bit about,
it's almost like dating. Like, you want to meet,
you want to see, like, what are their interests?
What were their experiences? You know, I always
recommend, like, looking at someone who you feel
like their career is a career that you hope for,
you would, you know, would bring you fulfillment.
And then that's the person that you want to start
by talking to. And then you see if it's a fit
when you're talking to them. And it's also a
lot about a reciprocal relationship. So I think
as a as a student, I didn't recognize that as
much. So that's what I always recommend for people
is like you're going to get something from them,
but you also need to be giving them something,
which is pretty easy. It's just respecting people's
time when you're sending an email. You don't
want to just say, hey, you seem interesting.
Can we meet? Send it very short. These are times
I'm available. Are you available any of these
times? And if not, I can send you more because
when you're the student, I feel like it's easier
to capture the person. If you're very upfront
with them, they can just send you one email back.
It's like once it turns into the back and forth,
that's where you get lost in the email shuffle.
So that is one good way to grab people. Just
give them all the information up front and then
they only have to send you back like, that sounds
good this time. No, that's really helpful. I
think a lot of times people put out this like
oh you should reach out to people you should
find a mentor but nobody really tells you how
to do it or what that looks like totally and
i remember when i was you know i always felt
so silly like oh this person's so important like
why are they gonna talk to me but then that became
like this deferential like oh hi you know All
of these things about you make me want to talk
to you like let me know if you have any time
and then that's like too vague because when you
look at. You know like a full professor. when
you look at their schedule, it's crazy. There's
like, oh, maybe 15 minutes here. So if you make
it easy for them, like, here's all these times,
then they'll probably say, like, sure, I can
do that one. But if it's like, oh, now I need
to check my schedule, and then I have to email
and then we're going to email again, then that's
when every every extra email you send is just
an opportunity for like it to be lost in in the
inbox. So if you make it like a one and done,
then the success rate is much higher. No, that's
helpful. So before you had shared an experience
That you had had with in residency with a male
intern. And so I kind of want to talk about that
a little bit How do you think that gender has
impacted your career structure? I think in in
a lot of ways it has because It is still true
that I think that female physicians are expected
to do a lot more in order to be given the same
respect that their male counterparts are getting.
And that comes from all directions. Another story
that comes to mind is, I remember there was one
time that one of the nurses had raised a concern
about something that I had said and the person
who was a man was giving me the feedback and
was like, yeah, I know that's a joke, but you
like you cannot make that joke. And I was like,
that's interesting. And he was like, you know,
the the nurse culture is that male attendings
can do that, but female attendings can't. And
it really like was this eye opening moment of
like, so we're not going to talk about the culture.
We're just going to say there's a different expectation
for like, female physician behavior that is not
male, physicians are not held to. And so it's
good that there is awareness of these differences
now, but there's still not a lot of action being
taken about. Because for me, I'm like, if it's
unprofessional, it's unprofessional for everybody.
Or if it's OK, then it should be OK for everyone.
But like that was like a real -world example
that women are still getting Feedback that are
not being given to men. It's it's they get a
pass for some things and so then it becomes a
thing where you have to say to yourself like
well, you know, do I want to fit this mold that
doesn't feel like it was made for me or do I
feel like I am doing the right thing and Being
myself and I I think that you know patients appreciate
doctors who are humans. So I am like a firm believer
that it's not about changing yourself, but the
system is not changed yet either. So it becomes
a little bit complicated. So what would you say
to like early career physicians or even students
who are going into these experiences and getting
that feedback? It can probably be a little bit
daunting and often discouraging. when you're
either in these experiences or hearing about
these experiences where you're being pushed back
in a sense. Yeah, I think the toughest time is
when you are in training because you do feel
a little bit, you know, trapped by you're getting
great. Like these are the people, right? They
decide what your grade is. They decide what your
file says, you know, about your rotation and
and all that. And I think you know, that part
of why I ended up sharing so much more about
myself and my life on my platform is that I think
that you end up in the microcosm of wherever
you are. And so having the opportunity to find
other, you know, mentors, other resources to
really be able to get, you know, more information
about what is something that is just like it
is going to have to change versus like, you know,
feeling like you need to change your personality
because I think like being yourself and being
authentic is the biggest strength. The you know,
I don't think people really thrive in their career
unless they are aligned with who they authentically
are and so it's finding that fine line of you
have to You know, there are some things that
I don't want to do in medicine and it's just
part of the job and that's fine So learning what
is this is part of the job versus learning. What
is like this is me and I'm not gonna change my
personality because you know, you're saying like
this is a doctor and that's different than me
because what is a doctor? It's someone who's
caring, someone who's compassionate, someone
who understands a lot about science and who wants
to take care of patients. So like that doesn't
say anything about are they goofy? Do they like,
you know, do they like fashion on the side? Do
they like all these things that sometimes come
into people's perception of who you are is at
the end of the day, if you're doing what you
should do to take care of patients and do it
really well, some of those things don't matter
as much. And so that's why I think trying to
find people who can help you blossom within that
structure, it may include going outside of where
you're learning, where you're doing your residency.
And so I think that's great that there's so many.
physicians who are putting themselves out there
now, because the more that we're exposed to,
the more people can find what really does align
with them. So I actually want to talk about a
little bit more about the platform that you've
designed. You have used social media to foster
an environment for women to flourish within medicine
and beyond. So talk to us a little bit about
that. Yeah, I think when I was in high school,
I remember one of my science teachers said to
me like, well, you're really small and you're
really blonde and you're a woman. So if you really
think you want to be a doctor, just know probably
no one's going to take you seriously and you're
going to have to work harder. Which I hated that
advice at the time. I Unfortunately think that
that is true. You know, I was a little bit naive
and thinking we were past we've moved past that
as a thing but I Felt lucky that I was kind of
stubborn and was like, oh whatever. This is what
I want to do I want to do it and I Came from
a bigger city. So I had you know more opportunities
to see more things and so then I was thinking,
you know, what if I was from a smaller city?
What if I was someone who wasn't so stubborn
and that was my only experience? And so that
kind of is what inspired me to put myself out
there in case there were other people who are
getting this kind of like, well, you don't look
like a doctor, which what truly, what does a
doctor look like? Yeah. It's a silly thing to
say, you know, you don't act like a doctor. Like
those things like that. We, we tell people who
are 15, that's silly. And so then I was like,
well, if I was someone who was findable, then
I could be someone that someone needs and they
are in a spot where they're not going to run
into that person. And, you know, it's evolved
over time, too, because then I'm like, you also
don't have to be like me to be a doctor. I think,
you know, my point is that we kind of give this
doctor thing An image a personality and at the
end of the day what we really want is a physician
and a full health care force that you know looks
like patients and Our patients are not all one
specific Everyone is different. That's what is
beneficial is the more diversity we have you
get better ideas people do smarter things and
so that is why I was like I'm gonna show that
this is outdated, that there is a specific stereotype
and it's just whoever you are, if you show up
as yourself, then you're able to give good care.
Well that was really inspiring and I know specifically
on the task force we talk about this a lot about
how there is no one subset of doctor and what
a doctor looks like and how they are sharing
with the world has really evolved specifically
as social media has evolved, we are kind of figuring
out different ways to connect with people who
may not have had that information or may not
have those kind of mentors. So along those lines,
I want to close us off with kind of an advice
question. For young women aspiring to enter the
field of neonatology or just medicine in general,
what advice would you offer them to navigate
and succeed in that field? where they may face
gender related challenges. Yeah, I think, you
know, to sum up what we've probably already said
through all of these other chats we've had is
just, you know, I think like the my biggest thing
is you have to be yourself unapologetically.
You are who you are. And I think I spent too
much time probably trying to like tweak. myself
to be part of this mold I had to be and I really
don't think I felt like I was really thriving
in my career until I just said like this is this
is the person I am and I and I like all of these
things I like all of these interests I think
they make me more complete and so I think being
able to say like This is me and showing up fully
as yourself like that authenticity is something
that no one can take away from you So that is
the biggest strength that you have You know,
the second piece would be definitely find your
people which we've talked about they may you
may be lucky They those people may be at your
school at your program of they may be somewhere
else. So look you know don't feel like you're
stuck in your bubble that you've been put in
and you know if you really can't find them anywhere
then you then you build the community which is
kind of the option that i took is like i'm gonna
make a platform and i'm gonna build the people
and i will put myself out there and i will i
will connect with the people and so that um is
another way that you can do it if you can't find
you know within wherever you've been planted
um And then the third thing is it's a long, it
is a long career. So it's possible that, you
know, in medical school, you don't find the right
fit, but then there's residency. Then there,
for some people like me, there's fellowship.
And so kind of thinking along the long game of
if you're not in the right spot right now, how
do you, what are the next steps? How do you,
how do you get to that spot? And I think what
a lot of women struggle with because of the way
that qualities are described about women is like,
like, advocating for yourself can feel really
weird, can feel icky, you know, standing up and
saying like, oh, me, I, you know, but there are
lots of people who will tout all of their accomplishments,
they will remind everyone every day, you know.
I've seen people quote their own articles, which
I was in the beginning, like I would never be
like, I'm the expert in, but it's you, you have
to do it because if you're not like, I'm the
expert, I did this, no one else is going to do
it for you. So, you know, trying to advocate
for yourself for opportunities that you feel
like, oh, I've said to myself, oh, that person,
maybe they deserve it more. And then it's like,
well, if you don't put yourself up for it, then
you're never going to get it. So kind of becoming
comfortable with the discomfort of being your
biggest advocate is the way that you're going
to get the furthest. Well, thank you so much
for sharing your experience of this and talking
with me today. That's a wrap on this episode
of Our Voice is Our Future. We hope today's conversation
inspired you, challenged you, and reminded you
the power of raising your voice. The fight for
equity doesn't stop here. Join us in the movement.
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