Welcome to Our Voices Our Future, the pop apps
where we amplify the voices driving change in
gender equity, medicine, and beyond. Brought
to you by the Gender Equity Task Force, a committee
of the American Medical Women's Association,
we're here to challenge norms, break barriers,
and ignite conversations that matter. I'm Megan
Epstein, and in each episode, we'll bring you
candid discussions with leaders, change makers,
and advocates, working to create a more inclusive
and just world. No more silence, no more waiting.
Let's get to it. Today we're welcoming Dr. Roberta
Gebhard, who is an inspiring leader, mentor,
and lifelong advocate for gender equity in medicine.
A family practice physician based in western
New York, she founded the Amla Gender Equity
Task Force in 2010, paving the way for systemic
change across the profession. As the past president
of the American Medical Women's Association,
As representative of the AMA Women's Physicians
Section Governing Council from 2020 to 2024,
and current AMWA Alternative Delegate to the
AMA House of Delegates, Dr. Gebhardt has championed
the voices of more than 100 ,000 women physicians
nationwide. She serves on the Board of Directors
for Physician Just Equity, providing compassionate
peer support for physicians facing workplace
inequities, and has been a dedicated member of
the UB Jacobs School of Medicine Admissions Committee
for over two decades. Dr. Gebhard's unwavering
commitment, mentorship, and leadership continue
to inspire generations of women physicians to
advocate boldly and lead with purpose. Thanks
for being here, Dr. Gebhard. Thank you for the
introduction. Yeah, so can you just kind of start
by sharing a bit about your journey, what inspired
you to pursue not only medicine but eventually
to become such a strong advocate for gender equity
in the field? Sure. When I was really young,
like kindergarten, I wanted to be a medical mission
sister. So basically a doctor who sings also.
So that was my goal when I first thought of kindergarten.
Then I found about boys and that kind of blew
that idea of becoming a physician. I always wanted
to do that. And there's nobody in my family.
Actually, I'm the first person in my family to
graduate from college. My family was a doctor
or had any professional training. But I just
always wanted to be a doctor and somehow I made
it here. It was a lot of work. So I think what
inspired me is mostly their well first of all
my mother because she always told me that I could
be whatever I wanted to so and secondly just
you know going to doctors and in our in our community
most of the doctors were foreign medical grads
so a lot of them did not speak English so they
were originally from that country and they would
come here and because you know they were here
under a visa they had to work in the rural areas
so most of the doctors you know in my community
were foreign medical graduates who didn't speak
English very well, so it was very difficult to
communicate with them and then I just thought
that I could help along those lines for sure.
Yeah, so I made it to medical school. I ended
up applying the third time when I got in and
I applied to osteopathic schools as well. I went
into an osteopathic medical school and just managed
to graduate in my residency and get done and
practicing them in medicine. Can you tell us
a little bit about what then had led you to become
a strong advocate more in the gender equity part
once you got into medicine and practicing? I
just noticed that when I was working with other
doctors, even as a medical student, that I was
working with a doctor who shared an office with
two male doctors. And she would, at the end of
the day, she'd have a huge pile of messages to
get back to. But the nursing staff would take
care of it for the guys. So they would basically
just be able to finish their. their office and
be able to go home. But she had to answer all
these questions at the end of the day. And I
just didn't think that was very fair that they
were helping the guys out, but not helping her.
That was just one example. But generally, there
were not a lot of women mentors when I was going
through school. very few actually in the osteopathic
medical schools at the time, but, you know, even
I trained in allopathic programs and there just
wasn't a whole lot of mentors that, you know,
could help you out. And just things that I experienced,
you know, when I was training where, you know,
the guys were always chosen and the women were
not just, you know, sexual harassment sort of
things. I remember when I was pregnant with my
first child, I was working with orthopedic team.
I was a medical student and literally they would
all walk by and pat my belly on their way by
and I just like just things that I didn't think
were appropriate but you just kind of so I just
made a decision that I wanted to change things.
So moving forward a little bit can you kind of
tell us what motivated you to found the gender
equity task force back in 2010 and what were
some of like the early challenges that you faced
in getting all this started? Um, so, um, AMWA
used to have a gender equity task force, but
I just knew that it existed. I didn't really
know anything about it at all, except for the,
the only thing I knew about it is they had, they
had a dedicated line. So they would advertise
it and, and somebody could just call that number
and get help. That's all I knew about it. And
I decided that I wanted to get that restarted
and start, you know, so it had been years since
they had been doing it. So actually, I had belonged
to AMWA for like 20 years, and I don't believe
they did it at that point. And I don't believe
they had done it during the 20 years that I was
involved. I just heard about it. So I had a friend.
Joyce Brock, who encouraged me and supported
me in doing that. And there was another woman.
I cannot remember her last name. I'm sorry, but
her first name is Margaret. And so we were the
three attendings that got together and helped
start it. But basically, they just kind of supported
me. And I went to the board and asked to get
it started. And they allowed me to do it. And
then we added Linda Brodsky, who was actually
my co -chair. So there were four physicians and
then I think we only had one medical student
at the time. And so we basically just got started
and we were meeting every week at the beginning
and then every other week and you know as we
got to know each other and then you know once
a month after that. Some of the challenges were
sometimes Linda and I would be the only ones
that shared up for the meeting and so she would
take notes and I would you know I would kind
of run the meeting, even though it was just two
of us. And we actually were very productive people
when there was only two of us. But it was hard
to get people to come to the meetings. And they
always wanted to change it to a different day.
And every time we tried to change it to a different
day. for an individual person who said, I will
definitely come, but I can only come on Tuesdays.
So we changed it to Tuesdays, and they would
never show up. So we just kind of kept going
back to Fridays at five, because that's what
worked out best for Linda and I. And we tried
to change it one more time, and then we went
back to Fridays at five. So we ended up changing
it now to the first Tuesday of the month, because
the co -chair at that time could make it at that
time. And again, the same sort of thing, if you
just didn't. come most of the time. But anyways,
we just continued to meet. So that was one barrier,
one challenge that we faced was getting people
to come and getting time that people could make
it. But that was probably the main thing, and
just getting people to get involved and actually
do things, which is not a problem at all right
now. But it was like, this is what. 15 years
into it so it's taken a while to get you know
to get it so that you know there are people that
are involved and other people have ideas and
um uh you know so it's i think it's very functional
right now but it took a long time to get there
yeah i think that's kind of cool to hear that
story of it coming up because now just being
here for the past year i see the tact force does
a lot so those early years of only hearing about
two people showing up is like crazy to me, because
it's so not that now, which is very cool. Well,
the other the other challenge was, like, I kind
of had to do everything. So like, I had the meetings
and set up that we actually at the beginning,
we just met on the phone. So I had to set up
the meeting, the calls and the meetings and things
like that. And that was hassle. And then like,
at least Linda did the notes. So that's like
my least favorite thing to do. So that worked.
But the, you know, having the challenge of, you
know, having to set up the meetings myself and,
you know, That was the challenge as well. So
yeah, can we kind of talk a little bit how it's
evolved over the years and what are some of the
accomplishments of the Gender Equity Task Force
that you have kind of been most proud of in terms
of its either impact on policy or culture within
medicine? Like what are kind of the things that
we have attacked that you've been very proud
of? I think, you know, the research that we've
done and the publications that we've done have
been the things that I've been most proud of
because that, you know, affects other people
and they read it and they hear about it and they
can take our ideas and move on with them in their
institutions. So I think that's been the most
accomplishment that I've been most proud of.
I was also involved with Time's Up Healthcare,
and also as this is a nationwide group that worked
on, and most what we did that worked was publications.
So when we started doing that, we were kind of
doing publications with both, and I thought that
that was really helpful. So talking a little
more about Time's Up Healthcare and the AMA,
work that you have done. What have those collaborations
that you've kind of had throughout life taught
you about driving change more at that institutional
level? So with the AMA, I was on the women physician
section. So there were over 100 ,000 women physicians
in the AMA, and there were eight of us that represented
those folks. The things that we did were very
much like what we do in AMWA, but because AMWA
started the AMA Women Physician Section, we are
the only organization that has a seat at their
table. So they have representatives from AMA,
but they overall, and then they have some members
at large, but we're the only ones that actually
have a representative to that group from AMWA.
So that was very helpful. Times Up Healthcare
was really exciting, and I've got some of my
best friends that I've met through that organization.
Unfortunately, it ended prematurely, but it was
great to get, you know, there were publications
that we were involved in with people that we
had met before, and we just worked together and
got some things published. And that always changes
things because people read it and they think,
oh, this is a great idea. Let me move forward
with doing that in my institution, or just even
the awareness that it exists. So I think, you
know, driving change at the institutional level,
you actually get the idea from reading, you know,
reading things and reading about the work that
we've done. I thought was very helpful. So looking
at yourself more holistically and just you and
less the work that you've done with these different
organizations. Can you tell us a little bit how
mentorship, this mentorship that you saw when
you first started was not around and present
and community that you've built with these people
that you talk about from these different places
have helped shape not only your own career, but
the role that we get from these people playing
in advancing and gender equity for future and
future and future generations of these women
that we have in medicine. I think that, you know,
people like Linda Broski, who was a very strong
mentor of mine. She was my co -chair, but she
actually filed. She found out when she was sitting
on the search committee for the medical school,
they were searching for the chair of the department,
and she was told that she was not chair. She
was not the right person to be chair. But when
she opened the booklets on each person in the
department, they have like a file, she found
out that she was making 20 % of what the men
were making. Not 20 % less, but 20 % of what
the men were making. Oh. So she went about...
And I actually believe it or not, I've actually
heard of people in other programs that did the
same thing. There was a woman. urologist that
had mentored a man all the way through his training.
And she was a full professor at her institution.
And when he came to join, after finished his
residency and his fellowship, when he came to
join, he asked, hey, would you mind looking at
my contract? And she found out that he was being
offered, and that's not even negotiated. This
is like right off the bat. So you always started
a negotiation part. And then you started at a
certain point, then you negotiate up to a higher
point. And he was being offered $175 ,000 a year.
more than she was making. Oh my gosh. I mean,
it's not uncommon. It happens. And so, you know,
just knowing that. that exists that helps me
a lot in being able to talk to people about negotiation
because people don't like to negotiate especially
women don't like to negotiate and just talking
to them about negotiation and showing them you
know like with me one of my positions they offered
50 000 when my friend stayed on with them negotiating
she got him up to 130 000 so if they can afford
to pay you 130 000 but they're only offering
you 50 000 it just seems you know kind of useless.
And so, you know, she ended up not going there
either. But, you know, there is wiggle room there
and they always start with a low number, hoping
that you'll take it. And there are some people
that actually believe that's why women actually
get paid less, because they don't negotiate.
But in my experience, I don't think that's the
whole thing. Because in one of my positions,
I negotiated, I was trying to negotiate with
the service unit director at the VA. And he said
there's absolutely no wiggle room with regards
to salary. And I guess I took him at face value
because I didn't think he'd be lying to me. And
then I found out when I got there that there
was a male who had much less experience than
I did. He had only graduated a year. I had been
doing hospital's work for like 13 years at that
point. And he was getting paid $10 ,000 a year
more than I was making. And I just found out
because I asked him. I said, hey, I just wanted
to know if one of my residents wants to come
here and apply for a job, can you? tell me what
you're making so I can tell him where to start
with negotiations. And he said when he gave me
what he was making was 10 ,000 a year more than
I was making. And I was like in shock. I really
was. But I ended up leaving that program because
I just didn't think I was right. So I think that,
you know, just The whole idea about negotiating
women have to kind of get over that. But I don't
think that's all there is. I think there are
other things that affect what they're being worth.
I mean, during my training, it didn't happen
to me, but other people were being told, well,
your husband's a doctor. We can afford to pay
you less because he can support you and those
sorts of things, which are really ridiculous.
Have you heard of, oh, you can't see the book.
It's called Women Don't Ask, Negotiation and
the Gender Divide. Yes, yes. Yes. Actually, we,
our students, we had them speak, had Sarah Laschover
speak at one of our meetings. Oh. Years back
and. And so I've actually used the same skills
that they've used because what they were doing
is getting like insurance companies to pay for
it. So I got our malpractice insurance company
to bring Sarah Lasher here to Buffalo to do a
talk. And she is absolutely amazing. They're
both amazing. So the first part is women don't
ask. And the second part of the book is ask for
it. And then the second part of the book is really
good because they have like a camp and the whole
idea is that you start asking for things that
aren't important. So for example, you know, when
I read that I brought some roses for the folks
on my committee and I stopped at the place where
I got the roses and I said, hey, can you give
me some water bottles to put them in? And they
were like two dollars a piece and they gave me,
you know, however many water bottles to go with
the number of roses that I had just for free.
But if I didn't ask, I wouldn't have known that,
right? I negotiated for a vehicle when we were
visiting down in Florida. And I got them talked
down $1 ,300. And it took me a while. It was
almost two hours that I did the negotiations.
And my family was going crazy. But I said, well,
look, guys, we got an extra $1 ,300 to spend
on vacation now. So negotiating on things that
aren't important so that you feel comfortable
with it when it comes to talking about your job,
your salary. And there are other things to negotiate
as well. It's not just salary. It could be your
hours. So there's only one person in our department
when I was at the university that had every Friday
off. Well, he negotiated. He said, hey, how about
if I work Wednesday night? can I take Friday
off because you get a half a day for administrative
time and all of us were required to actually
come to the office for administrative time but
because he negotiated out of time he didn't have
to come in the office at all on Fridays so even
though he was paid full time you know we had
to come in during our administrative time but
he never did so it's all about negotiation and
you just have to you can you can negotiate for
more time off you can negotiate for extra staff
if you're doing research. You know, you can negotiate
for space to do your research. There are all
kinds of things you can negotiate for, and you
just have to have your eyes open to it and, you
know, be able to think about what it is that
you want and what's going to make you happy.
It's helpful sometimes to have somebody, even
if they're not negotiating for you, to kind of
bounce things off of. I've had, twice I've had
somebody negotiate for me. There are different
people, and one of them was able to negotiate.
They offered me $80 ,000, and they negotiated
up to $100 ,000 for me. I was supposed to be
able to do a five -day work week. They got me
to a four -day work week. And instead of four
weeks of vacation, I got six, including my CME.
And so they got all that negotiation. It only
cost me like $200 to hire them to help me. And
so there's lots of different ways to do it. But,
you know, it's... Yeah, you have to negotiate.
I mean, it's not all about negotiation with regards
to the inequities, but that's part of it for
sure. I feel like even having this knowledge
is power until this conversation right now. I've
talked to people about negotiating things, and
I didn't even know until right now that you can
hire people to help you negotiate. I feel like
just knowing these things is so much power, and
that's why things like these podcasts are so
important, right? How are we supposed to know
about these things? Otherwise, unless we have
these mentors like you in our lives telling us
that this is how the world goes. Yeah. And there's
a group up in Montana that works with young people
to help them with their initial negotiations
for program or for their jobs. I can't remember
the name of it right now, but it's Girl Boss
or something like that. And they actually teach
you the skills, and then you can go over it with
them, but they kind of teach you how to do it.
So you can do the negotiation, but they... You
know, they'll train you to do that, which is
really good, but kind of helps you open your
eyes to the things that are available to you.
So like I had a friend who, she was in private
practice, so basically she put her kids on the
bus in the morning. She drove to her office.
She saw patients from like nine until three.
It wasn't three, whatever time it was, she had
to get her kids off the bus, but she saw them
straight through. She didn't stop for lunch from
nine until like 2 .30 and then she got home in
time to get her kids off the bus and she stayed
one day late. So she, you know, she was, she
was out by 2 .30. every day except Wednesdays.
So she stayed until like 4 .30 on Wednesdays,
and that was her late day. But that, you know,
it was her own private practice, and she could
do what she wanted, and it worked out well for
her. Her husband, you know, was... was a oral
surgeon. And so he made a good salary. And so
between the two of them, they were able to do
what they needed to do. So she had the luxury
of being able to do that, you know, people that
are part of one, one salary families don't always
have that luxury. But you know, she did because
she and I was also in practice. So there's lots
of things you can negotiate for and lots of things
that you can kind of build your own practice
and your own and your own mind of what you want
to do. Absolutely. So can you kind of tell us,
you've been doing this work for a while, right?
How have you continued to be inspired, especially
as you see not only like new generations of physicians
stepping into the advocacy and the good things
that are happening, but even as you're seeing
still these things you've been fighting for for
years have remained persistent and maybe you
have not seen as much change as you want. How
have you kind of like kept this motivation and
inspiration? My daughter is 28, and I just don't
want to see her going through what I'm going
through. And so I just feel that it's really
important to change the world if we can. And
it's very difficult with our current administration
to make any headway. But we finally got Biden
to ratify the ERA. Unfortunately, we couldn't
get the librarian to sign off on it. But, you
know, I think that, you know, my daughter, just
knowing her and what I'd like to see her life
to be different, I just keep fighting to make
things equal. And my, the students and residents
on the medical, on the gender equity task force
are very inspiring and they, you know, keep me
enjoying what I'm doing. I love that. That's
awesome. So Finally, can you just give us some
advice? What advice would you give to medical
students, these early career physicians who want
to be a part of this lasting, meaningful change
that we need to eventually succeed gender equity
one day? I think that standing up for yourself
is important, but you have to pick your battles.
So you don't want to be seen as the person that's
always fighting over things. So you just have
to pick the important things to fight about and
not everything. And it's really important that
you learn to negotiate and that you negotiate.
It's not all about the negotiation. But if you
do not negotiate, you will be leaving money at
the table. Because any time it even makes an
offer to you, there's money there that they have.
tell you the top number. They just tell you,
this is what we're offering you. And there's
always money there to go up. So if you don't
know that, you're not going to negotiate. And
if you don't negotiate, you'll definitely be
making less money. And men are much more likely
to negotiate. It's just a difference between
men and women. Women don't want to make it seem
like they don't want to, like with me, When I
had them negotiating for me in Ohio, the program
I was in, I was going into the, I was the only
woman physician that's going to be practicing
in that county. They couldn't get my name right.
They couldn't get anything right. They put, you
know, Dr. Rebecca Gebhard. They put MD instead
of DO. I mean, it was just crazy. And so I just
figured, well, if I had a guy negotiating that
they wouldn't do that to him. And I was able
to walk in so I couldn't be the bad guy with
negotiations because he had done all the negotiations
and I could just walk in and start working and
not have that over my head. So I just think that,
you know, knowing that there are other people
that can do the negotiations for you is important.
And I think knowing that the physician equity
is there to help if you do get problems in your
work, whether you're being, like lots of times
women will get, have something bad happen to
them at work. One of the fellows that we work
with got pushed by an attending and she's the
one that got fired because she complained that
this attending pushed her. And so, you know,
just knowing that the... physician just equity
is available to help you when you're having problems
in your career. Usually the people that come
to them is usually women, very often women of
color. There are some men that we've had come,
but mostly women. And it has a lot to do with
just being discriminated against and you bring
up something and then they decide, well, who
does she think she is telling us to do it this
way or whatever. and then they just get rid of
you or just make your life really miserable.
So just knowing that there's support out there
for you. Thank you. I love it just comes down
to knowing what you need to know to get through,
right? And then choosing your battle. I love
how you said that. Like, you have to choose what
you're going to fight for. There's so many aspects
that I've learned from being on the committee
that we We have a long way to go before we reach
gender equity, but I think if everybody chooses
a battle, then together we can, we can take them
all down one at a time, right? Yeah. Well, I
was, I was the 11th of 13 women fired in my department
when I was at the university. 11 of 13. For no
reason. There's no reason. And the chair of the
department when he was forced. So what I did
was I hired a private investigator. And the reason
why they let me go is because I was complaining
because one of the program directors was sleeping
with one of the residents. And he was married
with children. She was married as well. And I
basically said only to one person. I didn't say
it to a large group. I just said to one person,
I said, I think it's ridiculous that we're hiring.
Vonda, just because she's sleeping with Brian.
We have three other residents who make much better
faculty than she would. And they fired me and
hired her with my salary. And one of the women
that I was talking to that was still in the department,
she's like, you know, I just want to let you
know that I support you, but I have to stay under
the radar. You know, I'm raising children on
my own and I can't not be working. So, you know,
don't say I said anything, but I just want you
to know that I'm supporting you. And I think
that, you know, Some people are going to be more
likely to speak up than others. I did actually
get my job back. I hired a private investigator
who followed this couple from a restaurant to
a liquor store to a hotel, complete with videotape,
so that I was able to share that with the university.
And they basically told the chair that he had
hired me back. So I've taken my job back. You
fought your battle. Maybe that was important
to me. And the reason why I went back was because
I wanted people to know that I didn't do anything
wrong. Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you, Dr.
Gebhard. This has been a great conversation.
I think you have so many stories that are going
to have to have you on so many episodes, but
this has been a nice little intro to your life
and just knowing who you are and getting to know
you a little bit more on the podcast. The other
thing that I would encourage people to do is
to join AMWA and to stay members of AMWA throughout
their career. You can actually just get a lifetime
membership and then you never have to pay again
after that. But just encourage people to stay
as members of AMWA because what you're doing,
even if you don't have time to attend meetings
and things like that, you're supporting the organization,
the oldest women physician organization in the
world. We actually started the Medical Women's
International 106 years ago and and so we were
older than them because we started them and uh
you know it's just it's good to have it's good
to support this group because if you don't have
time to mentor you know we did the mentoring
um it helps the students um with with scholarships
and things like that and just really encourage
everybody to to as students to join but but very
often the students will fall off after they've
gotten all this mentoring i just encourage everybody
to stay in for the long run because that will
help change the world I love it. Thank you so
much. You're welcome. So that's a wrap on this
episode of Our Voice is Our Future. We hope today's
conversation inspired you, challenged you, and
reminded you of the power of raising your voice.
The fight for equity doesn't stop here. Join
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