Brought to you by the Gender Equity Task Force,
a committee of the American Medical Women's Association.
We're here to challenge norms, break barriers,
and ignite conversations that matter. I'm Minua
Menene and each episode will bring you candid
discussions with leaders, change makers, and
advocates working to create a more inclusive
and just world. No more silence, no more waiting.
You're listening to our voices or future. Let's
get into it. Today, we're welcoming two incredible
physician leaders who are deeply engaged in advancing
gender equity and helping reshape how we define
leadership in medicine today. First, we're honored
to welcome Dr. Himani Devatia, a duly trained
internal medicine and pediatrics physician and
the associate designated institutional official
at Christiana Care, a leading academic medical
center in Delaware. Dr. Devatia is a champion
of medical education, leadership development,
and community advocacy. She has held multiple
leadership roles in residency training and patient
experience and currently oversees accreditation,
curriculum development, and physician training
at the graduate medical level. She is a graduate
of Leadership Delaware and the Health Management
Academy at Academy's Physician Leadership Program,
and she also serves as the clinical assistant
professor at Sidney Kimmel Medical College and
Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine.
Joining her, we have Dr. Valie Condos, also a
duly trained internal medicine and pediatrics
physician who also serves as the co -chair of
Delaware's ACP's Chapter's Women in Medicine
Committee alongside Dr. Devadio. Since completing
her year as chief resident, clinically, Dr. Condos
serves as an academic med -pete hospitalist at
Christiana Care and Nemours Children's Hospital.
During and beyond residency, she has been passionate
about physician well -being and currently serves
as the well -being lead for the Division of Pediatrics
at Nemours. She is also a clinical assistant
professor at Philadelphia College of Fostering
and Academic Medicine and Sidney Kimmel Medical
College. In her role as the associate program
director for the MedPeds residency at Christiana
Care, as well as the director of the SABI program,
she is passionate about leadership, mentorship,
and medical education. Dr. Devethiah and Dr.
Condos, both of you, thank you for joining us
today. To start us off, I would love for you
to begin. by hearing from each of you how you
define leadership in your own life right now
and how has that journey evolved over the years
and how has your idea of what makes a good leader
changed over time. Thank you so much Meenu for
having us. This is such an honor and really an
incredible experience to be able to share our
voices as we all shape our futures together.
You know the first time that I actually began
to define leadership really formally was during
my first leadership development experience as
a third year resident. And prior to that, a leader
to me was somebody that you always looked up
to, somebody who had these values and behaviors
that you aspired to emulate. But honestly, over
the last 15 years, personally, I've sought multiple
leadership development experiences only to really
refine that initial idealism. Leadership is an
art and a science. It comprises very specific
behaviors and skills that require practice, and
it's founded in continual reflection and growth.
Ultimately, I believe that it's about driving
others to believe in a vision, their own capabilities,
and motivating them to achieve those common goals.
And it's funny. I define myself as a leader and
I'm fortunate to be a leader in a workplace.
I also see myself as a leader in the home, in
my peer circles, in my community at times. And
certainly I don't have formal roles in all those
spaces. Would you consider a mother a leader?
Well, We do, but really it's because we're using
our values. My personally values are grit, grace,
and interconnectedness. We're using certain specific
skills like emotional intelligence, like integrity,
like communication, strategy, and ultimately
we're trying to bring people towards a common
goal. Dr. Tabadia, that was so well said. You
can't see my face, but I've been nodding along
on every line of that statement. And just to
further elaborate, my initial definition of leadership
is so far from where it is today because initially
it just seemed like I was looking up to those
that seemed. so far out of reach that just were
in their field for years and years and got promoted
and just led with authority and with confidence.
And as I progressed through residency and through
attending hood, a couple key experiences really
helped transform that definition for me. And
actually, one of those was similar, the exact
course that Dr. Tebeche is talking about called
LEADR, Leadership Excellence Education for Residents
and Fellows, that actually our program director
here at Christiana Care, Dr. Friedland created.
And that was the most impactful because I was
able to see and hear the leadership journeys
of those that I felt I would never be able to
talk to, such as those who are in the C -suite,
CEOs, for example, and those kind of, those stories
really helped bring it to ground level for me,
really helped validate that there is nothing
extra special that those individuals have necessarily
done to get there, but They were seen by somebody
else. The opportunities presented themselves.
They worked really hard and they are very passionate
about what they do and they want others to see
that vision and they want to be those aspirational
role models to those around them. That was fabulous.
So as I had those experiences with LIDAR, with
our ACP Women in Medicine annual retreats and
being able to connect on a human level with those
individuals and those leaders, it really helped
me redefine leadership as one who is present,
humble. able to create a shared vision, inspire
those around them and under them to reach that
vision, and really empowers all of their team
members. And that is absolutely seen in the workplace.
That is, again, seen in the home and really seen
in every aspect. So just because there isn't
a formal leadership title does not mean you are
not a leader. I really love that. I really like
that reflection and appreciate that from both
of you because I think you define leadership
as more how we show up for others and often in
ways that might not be immediately like visible.
But I think that's really cool, especially for
me to hear this early in my journey, because
you are people that I aspire to be like. So being
able to talk to you like this and things like
that, that's been really impactful and I really
appreciate that. Can you share a moment of where
you've witnessed like different types of leadership,
especially like those quiet, like lead the power
of the quiet leadership either in yourself or
something else and how that's kind of influenced
the culture that you have around you? Absolutely.
I can take this one. So quiet leadership. Is
truly powerful because I think it speaks to that
leadership without a title. Right. And so when
I think of quiet leadership, I think of specific
colleagues or residents that. Speak louder with
their. than with their words. So those that really
are putting in the work, those that are helping
out their colleagues without being asked, going
the extra mile and naturally just aligning and
realigning a group during times of conflict as
we experience day in and day out, whether it's
as big as COVID or as small as just disagreeing
on a patient case. And so that individual that
is bringing us together and serving the group
type of servant leadership is truly strengthening
the culture of camaraderie and joy and fulfillment
of that group as a whole. I think quiet leadership
is really walking the walk, not just talking
the talk, as Dr. Condos mentioned. And we see
that quiet leadership does get noted, does get
appreciated. and does get rewarded. I really
love the term servant leader. I feel like that's
I think something that's really very much a good
mindset to have in like, I think in medicine,
but also just in general of leadership. My next
question is kind of about I feel like many women
don't see themselves as leaders, like quote unquote,
until they have that formal title. So like, how
do we shift this narrative that we kind of have
been talking about of that servant leadership?
um especially for those who are already kind
of like um developing or demonstrating those
like the quiet everyday leadership that we're
talking about like because i feel like part of
its narrative part of it's how do you speak to
yourself about it so how any advice on that and
how you kind of help navigate yourself and like
what you tell residents yeah i think you know
um it is important to recognize that there is
formal leadership and there is informal leadership
and Both are extremely important and oftentimes
informal leadership can lead to formal leadership.
Although it is upon the choice of the individual,
whether you want to remain in that informal leader
capacity or if you want to aspire towards one
of those formal leadership roles. Ultimately
leadership is a mindset. It does not have to
have titles. but it requires this practice of
consistent behaviors. Those behaviors that Dr.
Condos mentioned, that I mentioned, it's about
listening actively. It's about having creative
ideas and speaking up towards those. And it's
really being that team player, recognizing that
we are motivated towards that same ultimate goal.
I really think that you know we do as women have
a tendency to build a narrative internally and
structurally and societally there are narratives
built around us as well and it's thinking about
how to whether you're a quiet leader or a more
um you know voiced leader whether you're a formal
leader or informal leader it's ultimately about
figuring out who you are what you want and how
you can work together with others to get there.
You guys co -lead a committee focused on gender
equity. What barriers do you consistently see
that prevent women from stepping into those leadership
roles? And how do you think we can begin to kind
of dismantle them? That is a great question.
And we are so grateful, you know, through the
American College of Physicians for about the
last decade, we've had this opportunity to build
our Women in Medicine Committee together. What
we've noted in those conversations that we've
had with just a diverse array of humans is that
barriers do exist. And Unless we talk about them
as we are in this moment, we won't necessarily
be able to advance our own internal leadership
and our collective leadership as a group. I like
to sort of bucket them and certainly, you know,
we could talk about a multitude of barriers,
but I bucket them in maybe kind of three core
domains. It's power, perception, and pragmatism.
And we'll each expand on that a little bit and
what some of these barriers are. You know, power,
as we think about it, historically medicine has
been a male dominated profession. And while we
do know that medical school admissions are showing
a higher rate of female matriculants, almost
up to 60 % and now a female predominance, there
are still decades of expectations and experiences
that speak differently due to formal power and
authority roles. So for example, about 25 % of
deans of medical schools and universities are
females. About 30 % of healthcare physician executives
are females. And we also see that in general,
there is about a 15 to 20 % pay gap between the
highest paid specialties in medicine as well,
between males and females. Now, it's not that
we want to continue to focus on the divide. But
it's really about how do we understand these
power differentials, understand why they exist
and begin to talk about them, begin to ask key
questions and begin to arm ourselves with information
so that we can have more informed discussions
and choices. And lastly, I'll say that power
is really about understanding that sometimes
we have to dance the dance, but really it's about
working together with our allies, with our sponsors,
often that are men and leaders of all backgrounds
in order to break some of these traditional mentalities
and balance that power and balance that. Absolutely.
And like Dr. Tavidia said, just being able to
bring those to light or recognize them is already
half the battle so that we can address them.
And so a couple of things that come to mind for
me thinking about power dynamics is as a woman
maybe really pursuing her aspirational goals
of of her next promotion, for example, she may
be seen as too power hungry or really a bit too
harsh, right? He's like leading with authority
as opposed to a male in that same position that
would really be recognized for how poised and
how confident how well he's leading the team.
And on the other end of that is, you know, women
may be a little too soft or seen as issues more
so leading with stories and not necessarily data
and numbers, for example. And so some of those
biases are a lot deeper than than we think, just
are intertwined in our day to day lives. And
then one other one I'll bring up is, you know,
just being in a meeting, right, and at leader
or not, and a woman brings up a specific suggestion
or a change, for example, and there's it's kind
of not recognized and we bring up the same topic
and then people engage or say it's a great idea.
And this is still happening like this year, right?
And I don't think people necessarily are intentionally
trying to grow that divide again, but it still
happens. And it happens, right? And so just bringing
that to light a little bit with the power dynamics.
So that was That was kind of the first bucket
of power. And next, we want to shift a little
bit more into perception. And perception is challenging,
because I think there's two areas of perception
that we'll touch on. One is self -perception
and the other is external perception, right?
internal perception or personal perception, self
perception. And one of the biggest struggles
I think that women have, including myself very
much so, is imposter syndrome, right? It just
is much more widespread in our communities. And
I think that, you know, in a group of driven
individuals that are physicians, that wanna be
leaders, that wanna continue to aspire, we get
this feeling where we're just not meeting the
mark, right? Constantly not meeting the mark.
And should we be here? And can I handle that
next leadership opportunity that's presenting
itself? And am I good enough? And tend to question
ourselves a lot about that and feeling like we
are not as capable. And what I have found is
helpful to combat that a little bit is really
stop again and notice in the moment, why am I
comparing? Why do I feel like I'm not capable?
And notice it. You don't necessarily have to
answer it. First, notice it. you're comparing.
Why am I doing it? And why am I negatively seeing
myself? And is that true? Is it reality? Or is
it a false narrative that I'm telling myself,
right? Is it a story? And really try to look
at the facts there, analyze the situation and
see. And if you can't figure out why you think
you're capable, maybe the best thing is to have
a colleague, a loved one who can tell your elevator
speech to you and say, actually, you are this,
this, this, you've accomplished all these amazing
things and rattle off your CV in a minute there,
right? When you're chosen. That self perception,
I think we can really unravel ourselves and get
pretty low. And I think we need to really separate
out fact from fiction that we're a narrative
that we're telling ourselves. I would have to
agree and say that I've had to do a significant
amount of coaching work and thought belief work
to change that mental narrative. And the more
that we speak about the mental narrative that
exists both internally and externally, the more
we are able to. empower each other to break those
narratives down. And you know, when I work with
a coach, for example, a lot of what we talk about
is really thinking about what is it that I bring?
What is it that I want? You know, what is it
that I need to do from to get from here to there?
Yeah, kind of moving into that third piece, which
is the pragmatism. The pragmatism is just that.
it's identifying facts, figures, feelings as
well, not alone, and sort of forecasting, predicting
what you need to do to achieve success in a situation,
for example. And actually women who receive training
in being able to advocate effectively, communicate,
lead from that practical standpoint, carry their
voice in larger circles with more effectiveness.
It does take, however, planning and preparation,
and it takes support. And both Dr. Condos and
I are very lucky that we have extremely supportive
home environments. We have extremely supportive
work environments. Our colleagues that we work
with are diverse teams. And that is ultimately
what drives that work -life sustainability. I
really love how both of you touched on support
and how crucial that is in terms of breaking
that narrative in our brain of sometimes we just
need that reminder of things that we know are
true, but in that moment, we're not remembering
them. But I think that's such an important and
crucial thing. While we're navigating those internal
and external barriers like imposter syndrome,
the demands that are competing, I feel like having
that space is really helpful. And my next question
is about how have spaces like M while or lean
in circles helped you grow, not just professionally,
but also as people? Great question. And I do
think those are really crucial pillars to growth,
right? Growth in your career, growth in your
home life, growth in all areas. So I think there
are specific types of support that you need,
right? We need mentors. We need mentors that
are there, different types of mentors for different
areas in your lives. Not necessarily one mentor
for all, although some people may have that.
We also need sponsors, right? Sponsors that are
going to see you, that are going to help you
get to that next step, that next opportunity
to get you out there, whether it's nationally.
whether it's locally, regionally, et cetera.
And all those individuals, all those different
supports in your lives, your life, apologize,
are gonna help you grow personally and professionally
and will help you network and get you out of
your comfort zone. I think we've been really
fortunate through AMWA, through the ACP Forum,
through Lean In Circles. We've had some homegrown
women in medicine organizations as well. we've
had the opportunity to create a forum to dialogue,
very much like we're dialoguing today. We've
had an opportunity to discuss shared experiences
and most importantly, tangible tools. What are
some evidence -based tools that we can use to
help ourselves promote each other and move towards
reducing that inequity and that gender gap? And
so for example, at some of our women in medicine
retreats, we've been able to bring in experts
on negotiation. understand, you know, how do
you negotiate and how do you know what to ask
for? Where do you identify data around salary
differentials? And then how do you go back into
that conversation more prepared and pragmatic?
We've had individuals come in and work with us
on improv and we've done some acting. Because
we know that as a profession, we have to be thinking
on our feet, pivoting at any time, and really
be able to bring that confidence, which is a
practiced skill set, and move into that action.
And certainly, you know, the more we get to share
our voices together, we learn from each other.
That is probably the most important thing because
no two experiences are identical, similarities
that bring us together, but it's those differences
that allow us to leverage even stronger. I love
that. In terms of mentorship, so it is someone
like going through as like a resident, how do
you find those mentors? How do you ask people
to be a mentor? Or I don't know if sponsorship
works the same way, but any advice on that for
people who are on my stage of our career? That's
a great question. I think coming from somebody
personally who does not have the skill of just
walking into the room and networking, maybe there
are days when I can do that, but most days I
can't. So I think taking small bites is where
I started. In my groups, I could notice okay
what are my interests and who is somebody that
either has gotten there or has the skills to
get there that I can. to chat with and pick their
brain. And that's how it kind of came up with
my first mentor, second mentor. And as I chatted
with them a little more informally and had a
connection, I don't know that I ever asked them
to formally be my mentor. You know, one thing
led to another, that connection. And as we had
conversations and realized something else was
an interest of mine, they would be able to point
someone else out for me to touch base with, et
cetera, for those different goals and aspirations.
That's how I started. I think that, you know,
it does take work. And the work is important
to put in because the return on that investment
is huge. I remember when I was probably at one
of my first national conferences as a medical
student, actually the American Academy of Pediatrics
and our first MedPeds resident association, NAMPRA
conference, I thought, Okay, these are all incredible
people. I want them all to be my mentors, and
I don't know how to ask them that. Over time.
Exactly. It's so natural. It's so common. You
are not alone for thinking that. Over time, I
kind of learned to strategize and say, I would
love to have a mentor really for the personal
aspects of life. female med peds position program
director that is really focusing on how she balances
her personal life with her professional life.
Yeah, we want that mentor who is that core academic
mentor, the one who's written a lot of papers
to say, how do I build a writing circle? How
do I submit my first proposal for a conference?
I also think it's very important to have a distance
mentor. This mentor is an individual who is not
at your institution, is not maybe you're even
seeing interested specialty, but somebody who
could sort of be that neutral perspective because
you are going to be familiar and comfortable
with the things and people you are familiar and
comfortable with. Your distance mentor sort of
sees things from a distance. you reflect in a
different way, maybe challenge some of your suppositions
and brings new insights and perspectives. And
distance mentors are really found by doing something
like we're doing now. Individuals serendipitously
meet, but that can continue to stay in your circle
because you actively build that relationship.
Just to piggyback on that. is that those individuals
that you'll have in different areas of mentorship
and the distance mentors, they don't have to
all be strong female leaders, right? You make
that different perspective of a strong male leader
that is great at research because that's the
area you want to grow it, right? And so different
individuals, whether it's different genders,
different roles, different specialties, different
locations, they all serve a really great purpose.
Do you want to make a quick comment on sponsorship?
There's a lot of literature that has been written
around mentorship, coaching, and sponsorship,
and actually the American Medical Association
has a really great toolkit on coaching and mentorship
and sponsorship as well, which individuals should
feel free to access. The key piece about sponsorship
is that any point in time that You are in some
type of semi -formal or formal position without
that pay it forward mentality. And that's what
sponsorship is. We all do that so seamlessly
on the wards when we become fourth year medical
students. And we see that third year medical
student who might be on that inpatient experience
for the first time, right? We offer those insights.
We help them identify how to write that first
soap note. we talk about, hey, are you applying?
I'm in the application process now. Let me tell
you what it's like. Take that model and transfer
it at every stage of your life. And when you
get to that point of saying, you know what? I
have a position that's vacant. I want to sponsor
the person that I believe is best qualified and
really deserves that opportunity that maybe somebody
else won't see her, but I do. I really love that.
I love that. It feels like it's a little bit
about intentionality and self -reflection and
introspection, but it's also about being genuine
and just starting to connect with people. And
I think letting that guide it a little bit and
letting your inner reflection guide that a little
bit as well. But it's about trying, I think.
It's about showing up and trying a little bit
is what I'm... My summary of this wonderful advice
I've just gotten. Today we've covered a lot already.
My next question is kind of trying to pivot a
little bit more about being a little more personal
and we kind of mentioned it already about work
-life integration and boundaries. The term work
-life balance gets thrown around a lot. but I
feel like many of us feel like that's an impossible
standard, especially as women in medicine. I
feel like that's something we often struggle
with even earlier stages. How do each of you
kind of approach that work -life integration
and what's helped make it sustainable, if at
all, or if you have a different way you approach
it, that also I feel like would be cool to share.
Yeah, I have navigated this question over and
over again, so I'm so glad we're talking about
it. Honestly, I don't think work -life balance
exists. Now, this is me, this is very personal,
but I think what I strive now to do as a mother
of two incredible boys, as a community leader,
as a faith organization goer, as a physician,
as a leader in medical education, I strive for
sustainability. And you mentioned that word,
right? That's exactly what you said. Like, how
do you, in your perspective, you're probably
thinking, how do we make this career sustainable?
And that's what it is. Work -life balance, work
-life integration, I think work -life 3 .0 is
work -life sustainability. And when I think about
that, I ask myself the question, yeah, can I
listen in on a meeting while making dinner and
feeding my children? Yes, yes, I can do it. Is
that the best way for me to be mentally present
in either domain? Not necessarily. And so I've
had to make some calculated decisions. I've had
to set boundaries and I've had to really think
about what it means to bring my full self to
each effort. Sometimes that looks like asking,
you know, my administrative team lead to block
my schedule at 4 p .m. because You know, I don't
have a babysitter for the next couple of weeks
and that means that I can't take in -person meetings
and that I will be at home and I will show up
at home and my presence is needed at home and
everybody around me knows that expectation. Sometimes
it's saying that I have an opportunity to co
-partner with my esteemed colleague Duck Condos
with an incredible podcasting joy today and that's
me telling my home life Dinner's on you guys,
I'm gonna be out for the next four hours. And
ultimately, what I'm getting at here is that
it's the intentionality we spoke about earlier.
It's not feeling guilty. And it's really being
tactical about looking at your priorities, what
matters in that moment, and then really focusing
in to build that experience to maximize that.
Absolutely. I also really love that we're talking
about this because it truly is a question that
I don't know that I'll ever be able to fully
answer, give the perfect answer for. But as we're
juggling these multiple different aspects in
our life, different titles of who we are necessarily
or who we want to be, it brings up an Instagram
reel that multiple people have actually shared
with me in different places and spaces. So I
thought it really illustrated this well. And
what it showed is that we're always juggling
multiple balls at once, right? And it is, you
know, the key is to discern which balls are rubber
and will bounce back and which ones are glass.
and will shatter if you drop them. And that is
in that moment, in that hour, in that week, in
that month. But the key there is being able to
discern, right? Because your goal in life is
not to be perfect and carry all the balls at
once. It is to be present and carry those that
will shatter if you drop them. And knowing that
you can implement multiple tools to try to figure
out which ones are glass for you and some are
just intuitively glass and you know you are.
cannot knock them and others you really need
to think strategically about which you have to
commit to in that moment like Dr. Devatia was
explaining. But that shift in mindset will really
give you the freedom to stop chasing perfection
and start choosing presence. I really love that
analogy. I feel like I've heard the ball juggling
analogy but not the taking the time to decide
which one is rubber and which one is glass. I
feel like that's a big perspective shift of how
you can view it. So like I really appreciate
that analogy and the real that came into your
life. And we kind of mentioned boundaries in
terms of boundaries of professionally, boundaries
personally, and I feel like boundaries are essential,
especially in leadership, but they're often hard
to set, especially in medicine, especially in
different aspects of medical training. What boundaries
have you learned to protect over time and how
has that kind of changed your relationship with
work and leadership? Great question. Also one
of those million dollar questions and boundaries
is something that has always been difficult for
me because I am still working and I think will
forever be working on creating and upholding
boundaries without guilt, which is the key. And
one thing that's been helpful for me is having
clear bidirectional communication between myself
and the other party. kind of set a boundary with,
right? And not assuming their expectations of
me or vice versa. And really reminding myself
that time is our most valuable asset and needs
to be protected. And so how I want to use that
time needs to be determined by me and not actually
by someone else. And external factors should
not dictate how my time is spent. Now, in reality,
right? That is the goal. So how do you actually
make that happen, I think, is based on almost
analyzing every situation. And so I have found
that very exhausting. And actually, as I was
listening to an audio book recently, I loved
a different framework that I would like to share.
This framework is actually built around figuring
out the emphatic yes. So it's a lot easier for
you to say no. And this author was speaking about
setting big, hairy, audacious goals. So something
called BHAGS, which is a term that was coined
by Jim Collins and Jerry Porras in their book,
Built to Last. And the idea is if you set these
big, hairy, audacious goals, right, your goals
in the next like five years or 10 years that
we actually tend to underestimate ourselves on,
then you will have this sharp vision and this
commitment to get to that goal. And so it's a
lot easier for you to see all these other things
as distractions from that goal. It's a lot easier
for you to say no, not today. Today I need to
commit to writing that next chapter because I
am going to write my book by Um april of 2026
and in order to do so I need to write a chapter
a month And I need to refine it whereas if someone
comes in and says, oh, but can you please help
me? You know mow my lawn or you know thinking
of something But something that you would naturally
want to say yes to because you're a kind human
being and you want to help others You know saying
no is not that you are a mean individual or you
don't care about that person, but you really
do have your large goals in mind and you are
like emphatically saying yes to those and you
are saturated. So other things are much easier
to say no to and that boundary is a lot easier
to set. You know, Dr. Condos, I love that concept
and I personally haven't heard of that term BHAG
until you're defining it here today. So I'm definitely
going to take a moment to get the book built
to last so that we know we keep on lasting. It
reminds me of what one of my coaches, Dr. Kamil
Upchurch, shared with me. She's a physician who
does wealth coaching for women and she asked
me the question, she said, who is Himani 14 .0?
And I think we spend so much time thinking of
who we were of the past, a decent amount of time
thinking, and maybe even worrying about who we
will be of the future, that we don't have enough
time thinking about who is the us 14 .0 and what
are our BHAGs. But if we do think about those
goals, we set them as ones that are bold, able
to then define our boundaries, again, out of
strength and confidence and forward progress
rather than guilt and feeling like we're letting
ourselves and others down. I love that. I love
the framework. I love the intentionality of it
all. I really appreciate your thoughts on that
setting those kind of like boundaries and I feel
like it is hard especially the guilt part and
so I thank you for that and I feel like you both
are navigating still demanding careers and meaningful
leadership. positions and opportunities. If you
had to mentor your younger self, what's one truth,
one lesson you wish you would have known earlier?
This one does evoke a little bit of emotion.
Because there are a lot of things I would have
said to my younger self. The great part is we
get to say those here and now to individuals,
to women who are a decade or maybe even more
in this journey where we were maybe a decade
ago. And I would just say be courageous, be confident.
and be coached. I personally spent way too many
years inside my own head. I wish I would have
been able to speak up in forums where I was a
minority. I wish I might have been a little less
afraid of failure so that I could see what possibilities
exist. And I wish I could have been guided actively
by certain professionals. We are certainly guided
in that medical space by our attendings and really
learning the clinical realm. But I think it's
important to be guided by other professionals
to really understand and work through scenarios,
maybe do some visioning exercises and think strategically
about again. who we are, what are our values?
What do we bring to each experience? And what
do we intend to get out of every experience?
So be courageous, be confident. I know that's
like the worst feedback I used to get on my,
you know, new innovations, evaluations, like
be more confident, but it is true, right? But
how do you be more confident? It's to take that
active step of being coached or being in these
circles, like the Lean In Circles and ACP Women
in Medicine, AMWA, so that we... can really coach
each other into that next 14 .0 version of each
of us. Absolutely. And really, like you said
earlier, get those practical tools on how to
do that, knowing that show up more confident,
how to show more confident, how to show more
courageous and get that insight from your coaches.
And so I think From my standpoint, tactically,
that means giving yourself time to reflect and
be intentional. Get clear about what your values
are, what your priorities are, who you are, which
is a very difficult question to answer as I try
to answer my coach, who you are, not as defined
by your roles. but just who you are and who you
want to be. Because if you don't allow yourself
time to think about that and be intentional about
that, you will just keep going, going, going,
and then years will pass by, right? And you have
these, I wish I would have, I wish I could have,
et cetera. And I think every experience is...
as important and timely, et cetera. But if I
were to go back, I would like to create that
time, that intentional time of reflection, getting
clear and really making the space to get courageous,
confident, encouraged. I think that's really
important for us to hear when we are where we
are now, especially as like fourth year medical
students or residents. because I feel like we're
I think there are moments of our of like our
chosen career where there is time to think and
reflect and have those things but sometimes it's
a go go go I feel like like I think before medical
school is one of those points like where do you
want to be I think right now applying a residency
for me is one of those points what do I want
to be but I feel like in that in between it's
go go go and I feel like I think I feel like
what you guys have said of taking that time,
even in that go, go, go to build space for yourself,
I think is really important. And I think it's
something, again, intentionally you have to build
space for and time for. So I think it will be
really useful for people like me who are listening
to this podcast, who are in this stage of life,
to hear that. I just want to add a quick insight
piece into that. The ACGME offers the opportunity
for residents to give feedback both around kind
of core programmatic issues annually once the
ACGME program survey, but they also have a wellbeing
survey where really you have the opportunity
to think about, how do we structurally create
these environments where you have time to reflect
and what's the data showing? And we've seen actually
that, The data shows that the number one question
in need of really improvement is that I have
enough time to think and reflect during my work
experience. And ultimately, that is a contributor
towards emotional exhaustion, which is one of
the three facets that leads to burnout. As leaders,
as educators, as physicians, as women together,
we should really think about how do we create
that intentional time, certainly do it on your
own time and space when you can, but structurally,
systemically, how do we also work together to
create time? For example, during your clinic
sessions, you know, do you create a little bit
of admin time for the team to just have some
time to journal and reflection? We have a forum
here for narrative medicine. And so do we create
that time to reflect and think through a form
of narrative medicine? It's really important
and we know that the data says that we have less
and less time to think and reflect, but the time
to do that even more so than ever is now. I really
love that. I think that perspective of like structurally
I think is also good for us to hear because I
think we have less control of that as students
and as residents and I feel like thinking about
that and seeking that out I think is also something
that we that we can do. We can't create it right
now but we can seek it out so I think that's
really good for people to hear. My last question
for our time today is what's one hope you carry
for the next generation of women in medicine
and what role do you see yourself playing in
helping that hope become reality? That's a great
question. try to be succinct about this, as I
think we did address a lot and there's so many
hopes that we have, but I do think overall my
hope is that we continue to see one another and
to build each other up and not feel threatened
by one another's successes. And by we, I mean
the collective we, right, as like women leaders,
as physicians and Also our very diverse work
group, right? Our colleagues that are not women,
that maybe are not leaders. I think we find that
support in each area and that mentorship that
we talked about earlier in each area and really
being able to bring to light. those issues that
continue to feed into gender inequity, right?
And noticing them, talking about them, finding
ways to normalize and not stigmatize that divide
and maybe the larger mental load that we carry
as a barrier for us excelling in our careers.
I absolutely agree. It's to not live in silos
and fear, but to live in a space of collaboration.
courageous conversations and critical changes.
I really hope that we can together, you know,
with all of our colleagues advocate for things
such as paid parental leave, workplace accommodations
that enable individuals to choose to breastfeed
if they want. And for example, really talk about
going into practice with your counterparts who
may not be female and saying, Hey, you know,
what does your contract say? And are we having
similar benefits? And how do we help each other
maximize our potential? Because we each are valued
based on our, our skills and our experiences,
and not necessarily, you know, these gender definitions.
And so really, it's thinking about how we can
come together, as Dr. Condeau said, use spaces
as this forum and others to create sounding boards
and ultimately have a place where we feel free
of judgment and shame, but one that we can empower
each other towards mutual acclaim. Thank you
both for being here today. I think this conversation
is very enlightening for me and I hope for many
of our leaders as well. hope for many of our
listeners as well, and leaders. And that's a
wrap on this episode of Our Voices, Our Future.
We hope today's conversation inspired you, challenged
you, reminded you of the power of raising your
voice. The fight for equity doesn't stop here.
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