WEBVTT 00:00:56.780 --> 00:00:59.100 Brought to you by the Gender Equity Task Force, 00:00:59.460 --> 00:01:02.039 a committee of the American Medical Women's Association. 00:01:02.359 --> 00:01:04.400 We're here to challenge norms, break barriers, 00:01:04.579 --> 00:01:07.040 and ignite conversations that matter. I'm Minua 00:01:07.040 --> 00:01:09.219 Menene and each episode will bring you candid 00:01:09.219 --> 00:01:11.879 discussions with leaders, change makers, and 00:01:11.879 --> 00:01:14.120 advocates working to create a more inclusive 00:01:14.120 --> 00:01:16.680 and just world. No more silence, no more waiting. 00:01:16.980 --> 00:01:19.299 You're listening to our voices or future. Let's 00:01:19.299 --> 00:01:21.950 get into it. Today, we're welcoming two incredible 00:01:21.950 --> 00:01:24.290 physician leaders who are deeply engaged in advancing 00:01:24.290 --> 00:01:27.049 gender equity and helping reshape how we define 00:01:27.049 --> 00:01:29.430 leadership in medicine today. First, we're honored 00:01:29.430 --> 00:01:33.689 to welcome Dr. Himani Devatia, a duly trained 00:01:33.689 --> 00:01:36.069 internal medicine and pediatrics physician and 00:01:36.069 --> 00:01:39.230 the associate designated institutional official 00:01:39.230 --> 00:01:41.909 at Christiana Care, a leading academic medical 00:01:41.909 --> 00:01:45.159 center in Delaware. Dr. Devatia is a champion 00:01:45.159 --> 00:01:47.700 of medical education, leadership development, 00:01:47.879 --> 00:01:50.280 and community advocacy. She has held multiple 00:01:50.280 --> 00:01:53.159 leadership roles in residency training and patient 00:01:53.159 --> 00:01:55.680 experience and currently oversees accreditation, 00:01:56.040 --> 00:01:58.219 curriculum development, and physician training 00:01:58.219 --> 00:02:00.640 at the graduate medical level. She is a graduate 00:02:00.640 --> 00:02:03.400 of Leadership Delaware and the Health Management 00:02:03.400 --> 00:02:06.689 Academy at Academy's Physician Leadership Program, 00:02:06.930 --> 00:02:08.629 and she also serves as the clinical assistant 00:02:08.629 --> 00:02:11.229 professor at Sidney Kimmel Medical College and 00:02:11.229 --> 00:02:13.069 Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine. 00:02:13.509 --> 00:02:16.849 Joining her, we have Dr. Valie Condos, also a 00:02:16.849 --> 00:02:19.949 duly trained internal medicine and pediatrics 00:02:19.949 --> 00:02:22.889 physician who also serves as the co -chair of 00:02:22.889 --> 00:02:25.949 Delaware's ACP's Chapter's Women in Medicine 00:02:25.949 --> 00:02:29.759 Committee alongside Dr. Devadio. Since completing 00:02:29.759 --> 00:02:33.000 her year as chief resident, clinically, Dr. Condos 00:02:33.000 --> 00:02:35.919 serves as an academic med -pete hospitalist at 00:02:35.919 --> 00:02:38.659 Christiana Care and Nemours Children's Hospital. 00:02:39.219 --> 00:02:41.500 During and beyond residency, she has been passionate 00:02:41.500 --> 00:02:43.620 about physician well -being and currently serves 00:02:43.620 --> 00:02:46.379 as the well -being lead for the Division of Pediatrics 00:02:46.379 --> 00:02:48.919 at Nemours. She is also a clinical assistant 00:02:48.919 --> 00:02:51.240 professor at Philadelphia College of Fostering 00:02:51.240 --> 00:02:54.139 and Academic Medicine and Sidney Kimmel Medical 00:02:54.139 --> 00:02:57.349 College. In her role as the associate program 00:02:57.349 --> 00:03:00.729 director for the MedPeds residency at Christiana 00:03:00.729 --> 00:03:02.969 Care, as well as the director of the SABI program, 00:03:03.310 --> 00:03:06.069 she is passionate about leadership, mentorship, 00:03:06.370 --> 00:03:09.270 and medical education. Dr. Devethiah and Dr. 00:03:09.490 --> 00:03:11.569 Condos, both of you, thank you for joining us 00:03:11.569 --> 00:03:15.189 today. To start us off, I would love for you 00:03:15.189 --> 00:03:19.289 to begin. by hearing from each of you how you 00:03:19.289 --> 00:03:21.270 define leadership in your own life right now 00:03:21.270 --> 00:03:23.710 and how has that journey evolved over the years 00:03:23.710 --> 00:03:26.550 and how has your idea of what makes a good leader 00:03:26.550 --> 00:03:29.990 changed over time. Thank you so much Meenu for 00:03:29.990 --> 00:03:33.110 having us. This is such an honor and really an 00:03:33.110 --> 00:03:35.409 incredible experience to be able to share our 00:03:35.409 --> 00:03:37.610 voices as we all shape our futures together. 00:03:38.490 --> 00:03:41.310 You know the first time that I actually began 00:03:41.310 --> 00:03:44.960 to define leadership really formally was during 00:03:44.960 --> 00:03:47.460 my first leadership development experience as 00:03:47.460 --> 00:03:51.780 a third year resident. And prior to that, a leader 00:03:51.780 --> 00:03:53.960 to me was somebody that you always looked up 00:03:53.960 --> 00:03:56.639 to, somebody who had these values and behaviors 00:03:56.639 --> 00:04:00.180 that you aspired to emulate. But honestly, over 00:04:00.180 --> 00:04:03.360 the last 15 years, personally, I've sought multiple 00:04:03.360 --> 00:04:06.620 leadership development experiences only to really 00:04:06.620 --> 00:04:11.159 refine that initial idealism. Leadership is an 00:04:11.159 --> 00:04:15.490 art and a science. It comprises very specific 00:04:15.490 --> 00:04:19.970 behaviors and skills that require practice, and 00:04:19.970 --> 00:04:23.050 it's founded in continual reflection and growth. 00:04:24.189 --> 00:04:27.470 Ultimately, I believe that it's about driving 00:04:27.470 --> 00:04:31.310 others to believe in a vision, their own capabilities, 00:04:31.970 --> 00:04:35.110 and motivating them to achieve those common goals. 00:04:36.110 --> 00:04:39.300 And it's funny. I define myself as a leader and 00:04:39.300 --> 00:04:40.939 I'm fortunate to be a leader in a workplace. 00:04:41.259 --> 00:04:44.139 I also see myself as a leader in the home, in 00:04:44.139 --> 00:04:48.740 my peer circles, in my community at times. And 00:04:48.740 --> 00:04:51.199 certainly I don't have formal roles in all those 00:04:51.199 --> 00:04:54.040 spaces. Would you consider a mother a leader? 00:04:54.319 --> 00:04:57.920 Well, We do, but really it's because we're using 00:04:57.920 --> 00:05:01.180 our values. My personally values are grit, grace, 00:05:01.339 --> 00:05:05.019 and interconnectedness. We're using certain specific 00:05:05.019 --> 00:05:08.100 skills like emotional intelligence, like integrity, 00:05:08.480 --> 00:05:11.899 like communication, strategy, and ultimately 00:05:11.899 --> 00:05:14.500 we're trying to bring people towards a common 00:05:14.500 --> 00:05:21.540 goal. Dr. Tabadia, that was so well said. You 00:05:21.540 --> 00:05:23.860 can't see my face, but I've been nodding along 00:05:23.860 --> 00:05:27.480 on every line of that statement. And just to 00:05:27.480 --> 00:05:31.639 further elaborate, my initial definition of leadership 00:05:31.639 --> 00:05:34.920 is so far from where it is today because initially 00:05:34.920 --> 00:05:37.920 it just seemed like I was looking up to those 00:05:37.920 --> 00:05:40.930 that seemed. so far out of reach that just were 00:05:40.930 --> 00:05:44.189 in their field for years and years and got promoted 00:05:44.189 --> 00:05:49.129 and just led with authority and with confidence. 00:05:49.670 --> 00:05:55.389 And as I progressed through residency and through 00:05:55.389 --> 00:05:59.600 attending hood, a couple key experiences really 00:05:59.600 --> 00:06:02.959 helped transform that definition for me. And 00:06:02.959 --> 00:06:06.319 actually, one of those was similar, the exact 00:06:06.319 --> 00:06:08.699 course that Dr. Tebeche is talking about called 00:06:08.699 --> 00:06:12.339 LEADR, Leadership Excellence Education for Residents 00:06:12.339 --> 00:06:15.800 and Fellows, that actually our program director 00:06:15.800 --> 00:06:18.379 here at Christiana Care, Dr. Friedland created. 00:06:18.500 --> 00:06:21.199 And that was the most impactful because I was 00:06:21.199 --> 00:06:25.449 able to see and hear the leadership journeys 00:06:25.449 --> 00:06:28.310 of those that I felt I would never be able to 00:06:28.310 --> 00:06:31.029 talk to, such as those who are in the C -suite, 00:06:31.589 --> 00:06:37.509 CEOs, for example, and those kind of, those stories 00:06:37.509 --> 00:06:41.449 really helped bring it to ground level for me, 00:06:41.470 --> 00:06:45.730 really helped validate that there is nothing 00:06:45.730 --> 00:06:49.230 extra special that those individuals have necessarily 00:06:49.230 --> 00:06:54.389 done to get there, but They were seen by somebody 00:06:54.389 --> 00:06:56.490 else. The opportunities presented themselves. 00:06:56.569 --> 00:06:59.829 They worked really hard and they are very passionate 00:06:59.829 --> 00:07:03.170 about what they do and they want others to see 00:07:03.170 --> 00:07:08.110 that vision and they want to be those aspirational 00:07:08.110 --> 00:07:12.740 role models to those around them. That was fabulous. 00:07:13.040 --> 00:07:16.519 So as I had those experiences with LIDAR, with 00:07:16.519 --> 00:07:19.660 our ACP Women in Medicine annual retreats and 00:07:19.660 --> 00:07:22.620 being able to connect on a human level with those 00:07:22.620 --> 00:07:25.019 individuals and those leaders, it really helped 00:07:25.019 --> 00:07:29.519 me redefine leadership as one who is present, 00:07:30.480 --> 00:07:35.459 humble. able to create a shared vision, inspire 00:07:35.459 --> 00:07:39.160 those around them and under them to reach that 00:07:39.160 --> 00:07:43.279 vision, and really empowers all of their team 00:07:43.279 --> 00:07:46.959 members. And that is absolutely seen in the workplace. 00:07:47.120 --> 00:07:49.899 That is, again, seen in the home and really seen 00:07:49.899 --> 00:07:52.379 in every aspect. So just because there isn't 00:07:52.379 --> 00:07:56.800 a formal leadership title does not mean you are 00:07:56.800 --> 00:08:00.889 not a leader. I really love that. I really like 00:08:00.889 --> 00:08:02.709 that reflection and appreciate that from both 00:08:02.709 --> 00:08:06.410 of you because I think you define leadership 00:08:06.410 --> 00:08:09.089 as more how we show up for others and often in 00:08:09.089 --> 00:08:11.449 ways that might not be immediately like visible. 00:08:11.529 --> 00:08:13.589 But I think that's really cool, especially for 00:08:13.589 --> 00:08:16.529 me to hear this early in my journey, because 00:08:16.529 --> 00:08:19.149 you are people that I aspire to be like. So being 00:08:19.149 --> 00:08:20.910 able to talk to you like this and things like 00:08:20.910 --> 00:08:22.709 that, that's been really impactful and I really 00:08:22.709 --> 00:08:27.779 appreciate that. Can you share a moment of where 00:08:27.779 --> 00:08:30.019 you've witnessed like different types of leadership, 00:08:30.379 --> 00:08:33.279 especially like those quiet, like lead the power 00:08:33.279 --> 00:08:35.259 of the quiet leadership either in yourself or 00:08:35.259 --> 00:08:37.039 something else and how that's kind of influenced 00:08:37.039 --> 00:08:40.840 the culture that you have around you? Absolutely. 00:08:41.320 --> 00:08:45.330 I can take this one. So quiet leadership. Is 00:08:45.330 --> 00:08:48.289 truly powerful because I think it speaks to that 00:08:48.289 --> 00:08:51.110 leadership without a title. Right. And so when 00:08:51.110 --> 00:08:53.750 I think of quiet leadership, I think of specific 00:08:53.750 --> 00:08:59.029 colleagues or residents that. Speak louder with 00:08:59.029 --> 00:09:02.600 their. than with their words. So those that really 00:09:02.600 --> 00:09:06.039 are putting in the work, those that are helping 00:09:06.039 --> 00:09:08.500 out their colleagues without being asked, going 00:09:08.500 --> 00:09:12.200 the extra mile and naturally just aligning and 00:09:12.200 --> 00:09:15.820 realigning a group during times of conflict as 00:09:15.820 --> 00:09:18.659 we experience day in and day out, whether it's 00:09:18.659 --> 00:09:21.299 as big as COVID or as small as just disagreeing 00:09:21.299 --> 00:09:25.019 on a patient case. And so that individual that 00:09:25.019 --> 00:09:29.480 is bringing us together and serving the group 00:09:29.480 --> 00:09:33.000 type of servant leadership is truly strengthening 00:09:33.000 --> 00:09:38.500 the culture of camaraderie and joy and fulfillment 00:09:38.500 --> 00:09:44.019 of that group as a whole. I think quiet leadership 00:09:44.019 --> 00:09:47.500 is really walking the walk, not just talking 00:09:47.500 --> 00:09:51.620 the talk, as Dr. Condos mentioned. And we see 00:09:51.620 --> 00:09:56.840 that quiet leadership does get noted, does get 00:09:56.840 --> 00:10:01.210 appreciated. and does get rewarded. I really 00:10:01.210 --> 00:10:03.850 love the term servant leader. I feel like that's 00:10:03.850 --> 00:10:06.610 I think something that's really very much a good 00:10:06.610 --> 00:10:10.149 mindset to have in like, I think in medicine, 00:10:10.649 --> 00:10:14.309 but also just in general of leadership. My next 00:10:14.309 --> 00:10:16.570 question is kind of about I feel like many women 00:10:16.570 --> 00:10:19.350 don't see themselves as leaders, like quote unquote, 00:10:19.870 --> 00:10:21.909 until they have that formal title. So like, how 00:10:21.909 --> 00:10:23.549 do we shift this narrative that we kind of have 00:10:23.549 --> 00:10:25.269 been talking about of that servant leadership? 00:10:25.639 --> 00:10:27.500 um especially for those who are already kind 00:10:27.500 --> 00:10:30.679 of like um developing or demonstrating those 00:10:30.679 --> 00:10:32.940 like the quiet everyday leadership that we're 00:10:32.940 --> 00:10:34.679 talking about like because i feel like part of 00:10:34.679 --> 00:10:36.600 its narrative part of it's how do you speak to 00:10:36.600 --> 00:10:39.480 yourself about it so how any advice on that and 00:10:39.480 --> 00:10:42.279 how you kind of help navigate yourself and like 00:10:42.279 --> 00:10:46.659 what you tell residents yeah i think you know 00:10:46.659 --> 00:10:50.419 um it is important to recognize that there is 00:10:50.419 --> 00:10:53.080 formal leadership and there is informal leadership 00:10:53.080 --> 00:10:57.870 and Both are extremely important and oftentimes 00:10:57.870 --> 00:11:00.570 informal leadership can lead to formal leadership. 00:11:00.990 --> 00:11:04.870 Although it is upon the choice of the individual, 00:11:05.210 --> 00:11:07.870 whether you want to remain in that informal leader 00:11:07.870 --> 00:11:10.490 capacity or if you want to aspire towards one 00:11:10.490 --> 00:11:13.070 of those formal leadership roles. Ultimately 00:11:13.070 --> 00:11:16.269 leadership is a mindset. It does not have to 00:11:16.269 --> 00:11:19.600 have titles. but it requires this practice of 00:11:19.600 --> 00:11:22.039 consistent behaviors. Those behaviors that Dr. 00:11:22.279 --> 00:11:25.340 Condos mentioned, that I mentioned, it's about 00:11:25.340 --> 00:11:28.480 listening actively. It's about having creative 00:11:28.480 --> 00:11:32.539 ideas and speaking up towards those. And it's 00:11:32.539 --> 00:11:35.200 really being that team player, recognizing that 00:11:35.200 --> 00:11:38.320 we are motivated towards that same ultimate goal. 00:11:39.379 --> 00:11:43.980 I really think that you know we do as women have 00:11:43.980 --> 00:11:47.899 a tendency to build a narrative internally and 00:11:47.899 --> 00:11:50.419 structurally and societally there are narratives 00:11:50.419 --> 00:11:54.179 built around us as well and it's thinking about 00:11:54.179 --> 00:11:58.299 how to whether you're a quiet leader or a more 00:11:58.299 --> 00:12:01.679 um you know voiced leader whether you're a formal 00:12:01.679 --> 00:12:04.039 leader or informal leader it's ultimately about 00:12:04.039 --> 00:12:08.600 figuring out who you are what you want and how 00:12:08.600 --> 00:12:10.960 you can work together with others to get there. 00:12:13.100 --> 00:12:15.740 You guys co -lead a committee focused on gender 00:12:15.740 --> 00:12:19.460 equity. What barriers do you consistently see 00:12:19.460 --> 00:12:21.759 that prevent women from stepping into those leadership 00:12:21.759 --> 00:12:23.940 roles? And how do you think we can begin to kind 00:12:23.940 --> 00:12:27.919 of dismantle them? That is a great question. 00:12:28.240 --> 00:12:30.539 And we are so grateful, you know, through the 00:12:30.539 --> 00:12:32.399 American College of Physicians for about the 00:12:32.399 --> 00:12:35.039 last decade, we've had this opportunity to build 00:12:35.039 --> 00:12:37.720 our Women in Medicine Committee together. What 00:12:37.720 --> 00:12:40.179 we've noted in those conversations that we've 00:12:40.179 --> 00:12:45.919 had with just a diverse array of humans is that 00:12:45.919 --> 00:12:51.000 barriers do exist. And Unless we talk about them 00:12:51.000 --> 00:12:53.580 as we are in this moment, we won't necessarily 00:12:53.580 --> 00:12:56.240 be able to advance our own internal leadership 00:12:56.240 --> 00:13:00.080 and our collective leadership as a group. I like 00:13:00.080 --> 00:13:02.399 to sort of bucket them and certainly, you know, 00:13:02.399 --> 00:13:04.019 we could talk about a multitude of barriers, 00:13:04.340 --> 00:13:07.019 but I bucket them in maybe kind of three core 00:13:07.019 --> 00:13:12.039 domains. It's power, perception, and pragmatism. 00:13:13.279 --> 00:13:15.500 And we'll each expand on that a little bit and 00:13:15.500 --> 00:13:18.509 what some of these barriers are. You know, power, 00:13:18.669 --> 00:13:20.610 as we think about it, historically medicine has 00:13:20.610 --> 00:13:23.929 been a male dominated profession. And while we 00:13:23.929 --> 00:13:27.529 do know that medical school admissions are showing 00:13:27.529 --> 00:13:30.210 a higher rate of female matriculants, almost 00:13:30.210 --> 00:13:33.789 up to 60 % and now a female predominance, there 00:13:33.789 --> 00:13:37.529 are still decades of expectations and experiences 00:13:37.529 --> 00:13:40.950 that speak differently due to formal power and 00:13:40.950 --> 00:13:46.669 authority roles. So for example, about 25 % of 00:13:46.840 --> 00:13:49.379 deans of medical schools and universities are 00:13:49.379 --> 00:13:53.679 females. About 30 % of healthcare physician executives 00:13:53.679 --> 00:13:58.899 are females. And we also see that in general, 00:13:59.419 --> 00:14:04.039 there is about a 15 to 20 % pay gap between the 00:14:04.039 --> 00:14:07.600 highest paid specialties in medicine as well, 00:14:07.820 --> 00:14:12.759 between males and females. Now, it's not that 00:14:12.759 --> 00:14:16.669 we want to continue to focus on the divide. But 00:14:16.669 --> 00:14:21.990 it's really about how do we understand these 00:14:21.990 --> 00:14:25.309 power differentials, understand why they exist 00:14:25.309 --> 00:14:29.649 and begin to talk about them, begin to ask key 00:14:29.649 --> 00:14:33.549 questions and begin to arm ourselves with information 00:14:33.549 --> 00:14:37.289 so that we can have more informed discussions 00:14:37.289 --> 00:14:41.350 and choices. And lastly, I'll say that power 00:14:41.350 --> 00:14:46.220 is really about understanding that sometimes 00:14:46.220 --> 00:14:49.700 we have to dance the dance, but really it's about 00:14:49.700 --> 00:14:54.139 working together with our allies, with our sponsors, 00:14:55.120 --> 00:14:59.639 often that are men and leaders of all backgrounds 00:14:59.639 --> 00:15:03.220 in order to break some of these traditional mentalities 00:15:03.220 --> 00:15:08.610 and balance that power and balance that. Absolutely. 00:15:09.529 --> 00:15:12.669 And like Dr. Tavidia said, just being able to 00:15:12.669 --> 00:15:16.970 bring those to light or recognize them is already 00:15:16.970 --> 00:15:20.090 half the battle so that we can address them. 00:15:20.389 --> 00:15:23.389 And so a couple of things that come to mind for 00:15:23.389 --> 00:15:27.169 me thinking about power dynamics is as a woman 00:15:27.169 --> 00:15:32.330 maybe really pursuing her aspirational goals 00:15:32.330 --> 00:15:36.309 of of her next promotion, for example, she may 00:15:36.309 --> 00:15:41.370 be seen as too power hungry or really a bit too 00:15:41.370 --> 00:15:44.590 harsh, right? He's like leading with authority 00:15:44.590 --> 00:15:48.289 as opposed to a male in that same position that 00:15:48.289 --> 00:15:52.029 would really be recognized for how poised and 00:15:52.029 --> 00:15:54.190 how confident how well he's leading the team. 00:15:55.009 --> 00:15:57.889 And on the other end of that is, you know, women 00:15:57.889 --> 00:16:02.750 may be a little too soft or seen as issues more 00:16:02.750 --> 00:16:06.210 so leading with stories and not necessarily data 00:16:06.210 --> 00:16:09.649 and numbers, for example. And so some of those 00:16:09.649 --> 00:16:14.769 biases are a lot deeper than than we think, just 00:16:14.769 --> 00:16:18.110 are intertwined in our day to day lives. And 00:16:18.110 --> 00:16:19.570 then one other one I'll bring up is, you know, 00:16:19.570 --> 00:16:21.909 just being in a meeting, right, and at leader 00:16:21.909 --> 00:16:25.889 or not, and a woman brings up a specific suggestion 00:16:25.889 --> 00:16:30.090 or a change, for example, and there's it's kind 00:16:30.090 --> 00:16:33.830 of not recognized and we bring up the same topic 00:16:33.830 --> 00:16:36.669 and then people engage or say it's a great idea. 00:16:37.450 --> 00:16:40.070 And this is still happening like this year, right? 00:16:40.250 --> 00:16:43.210 And I don't think people necessarily are intentionally 00:16:43.210 --> 00:16:48.149 trying to grow that divide again, but it still 00:16:48.149 --> 00:16:51.129 happens. And it happens, right? And so just bringing 00:16:51.129 --> 00:16:53.710 that to light a little bit with the power dynamics. 00:16:54.169 --> 00:16:57.809 So that was That was kind of the first bucket 00:16:57.809 --> 00:17:00.049 of power. And next, we want to shift a little 00:17:00.049 --> 00:17:05.329 bit more into perception. And perception is challenging, 00:17:05.349 --> 00:17:07.950 because I think there's two areas of perception 00:17:07.950 --> 00:17:09.950 that we'll touch on. One is self -perception 00:17:09.950 --> 00:17:12.150 and the other is external perception, right? 00:17:16.269 --> 00:17:19.049 internal perception or personal perception, self 00:17:19.049 --> 00:17:20.890 perception. And one of the biggest struggles 00:17:20.890 --> 00:17:24.049 I think that women have, including myself very 00:17:24.049 --> 00:17:26.950 much so, is imposter syndrome, right? It just 00:17:26.950 --> 00:17:31.410 is much more widespread in our communities. And 00:17:31.410 --> 00:17:36.859 I think that, you know, in a group of driven 00:17:36.859 --> 00:17:39.980 individuals that are physicians, that wanna be 00:17:39.980 --> 00:17:43.519 leaders, that wanna continue to aspire, we get 00:17:43.519 --> 00:17:46.460 this feeling where we're just not meeting the 00:17:46.460 --> 00:17:48.660 mark, right? Constantly not meeting the mark. 00:17:48.960 --> 00:17:51.799 And should we be here? And can I handle that 00:17:51.799 --> 00:17:53.740 next leadership opportunity that's presenting 00:17:53.740 --> 00:17:56.759 itself? And am I good enough? And tend to question 00:17:56.759 --> 00:17:59.920 ourselves a lot about that and feeling like we 00:17:59.920 --> 00:18:05.430 are not as capable. And what I have found is 00:18:05.430 --> 00:18:09.150 helpful to combat that a little bit is really 00:18:09.150 --> 00:18:13.210 stop again and notice in the moment, why am I 00:18:13.210 --> 00:18:16.869 comparing? Why do I feel like I'm not capable? 00:18:17.289 --> 00:18:19.650 And notice it. You don't necessarily have to 00:18:19.650 --> 00:18:22.000 answer it. First, notice it. you're comparing. 00:18:22.460 --> 00:18:26.500 Why am I doing it? And why am I negatively seeing 00:18:26.500 --> 00:18:30.559 myself? And is that true? Is it reality? Or is 00:18:30.559 --> 00:18:33.460 it a false narrative that I'm telling myself, 00:18:33.460 --> 00:18:36.579 right? Is it a story? And really try to look 00:18:36.579 --> 00:18:39.319 at the facts there, analyze the situation and 00:18:39.319 --> 00:18:42.119 see. And if you can't figure out why you think 00:18:42.119 --> 00:18:44.400 you're capable, maybe the best thing is to have 00:18:44.400 --> 00:18:47.099 a colleague, a loved one who can tell your elevator 00:18:47.099 --> 00:18:51.559 speech to you and say, actually, you are this, 00:18:51.559 --> 00:18:53.359 this, this, you've accomplished all these amazing 00:18:53.359 --> 00:18:55.759 things and rattle off your CV in a minute there, 00:18:55.940 --> 00:18:59.680 right? When you're chosen. That self perception, 00:18:59.759 --> 00:19:03.220 I think we can really unravel ourselves and get 00:19:03.220 --> 00:19:06.359 pretty low. And I think we need to really separate 00:19:06.359 --> 00:19:09.960 out fact from fiction that we're a narrative 00:19:09.960 --> 00:19:15.119 that we're telling ourselves. I would have to 00:19:15.119 --> 00:19:18.619 agree and say that I've had to do a significant 00:19:18.619 --> 00:19:22.220 amount of coaching work and thought belief work 00:19:22.220 --> 00:19:25.500 to change that mental narrative. And the more 00:19:25.500 --> 00:19:28.680 that we speak about the mental narrative that 00:19:28.680 --> 00:19:33.599 exists both internally and externally, the more 00:19:33.599 --> 00:19:37.190 we are able to. empower each other to break those 00:19:37.190 --> 00:19:40.769 narratives down. And you know, when I work with 00:19:40.769 --> 00:19:43.750 a coach, for example, a lot of what we talk about 00:19:43.750 --> 00:19:48.210 is really thinking about what is it that I bring? 00:19:48.930 --> 00:19:53.109 What is it that I want? You know, what is it 00:19:53.109 --> 00:19:57.609 that I need to do from to get from here to there? 00:19:57.930 --> 00:20:00.789 Yeah, kind of moving into that third piece, which 00:20:00.789 --> 00:20:04.369 is the pragmatism. The pragmatism is just that. 00:20:04.519 --> 00:20:09.380 it's identifying facts, figures, feelings as 00:20:09.380 --> 00:20:15.480 well, not alone, and sort of forecasting, predicting 00:20:15.480 --> 00:20:19.700 what you need to do to achieve success in a situation, 00:20:19.759 --> 00:20:23.200 for example. And actually women who receive training 00:20:23.200 --> 00:20:26.339 in being able to advocate effectively, communicate, 00:20:26.500 --> 00:20:29.000 lead from that practical standpoint, carry their 00:20:29.000 --> 00:20:31.059 voice in larger circles with more effectiveness. 00:20:31.740 --> 00:20:34.559 It does take, however, planning and preparation, 00:20:35.079 --> 00:20:39.720 and it takes support. And both Dr. Condos and 00:20:39.720 --> 00:20:42.680 I are very lucky that we have extremely supportive 00:20:42.680 --> 00:20:45.140 home environments. We have extremely supportive 00:20:45.140 --> 00:20:48.859 work environments. Our colleagues that we work 00:20:48.859 --> 00:20:54.440 with are diverse teams. And that is ultimately 00:20:54.440 --> 00:20:59.630 what drives that work -life sustainability. I 00:20:59.630 --> 00:21:01.730 really love how both of you touched on support 00:21:01.730 --> 00:21:05.029 and how crucial that is in terms of breaking 00:21:05.029 --> 00:21:07.529 that narrative in our brain of sometimes we just 00:21:07.529 --> 00:21:09.710 need that reminder of things that we know are 00:21:09.710 --> 00:21:11.930 true, but in that moment, we're not remembering 00:21:11.930 --> 00:21:15.009 them. But I think that's such an important and 00:21:15.009 --> 00:21:17.910 crucial thing. While we're navigating those internal 00:21:17.910 --> 00:21:20.710 and external barriers like imposter syndrome, 00:21:20.910 --> 00:21:24.269 the demands that are competing, I feel like having 00:21:24.269 --> 00:21:27.509 that space is really helpful. And my next question 00:21:27.509 --> 00:21:30.099 is about how have spaces like M while or lean 00:21:30.099 --> 00:21:32.859 in circles helped you grow, not just professionally, 00:21:32.980 --> 00:21:40.039 but also as people? Great question. And I do 00:21:40.039 --> 00:21:46.460 think those are really crucial pillars to growth, 00:21:46.799 --> 00:21:50.440 right? Growth in your career, growth in your 00:21:50.440 --> 00:21:53.880 home life, growth in all areas. So I think there 00:21:53.880 --> 00:21:57.930 are specific types of support that you need, 00:21:58.069 --> 00:22:00.470 right? We need mentors. We need mentors that 00:22:00.470 --> 00:22:02.609 are there, different types of mentors for different 00:22:02.609 --> 00:22:05.670 areas in your lives. Not necessarily one mentor 00:22:05.670 --> 00:22:07.589 for all, although some people may have that. 00:22:07.930 --> 00:22:10.289 We also need sponsors, right? Sponsors that are 00:22:10.289 --> 00:22:12.049 going to see you, that are going to help you 00:22:12.049 --> 00:22:14.630 get to that next step, that next opportunity 00:22:14.630 --> 00:22:18.849 to get you out there, whether it's nationally. 00:22:19.529 --> 00:22:22.230 whether it's locally, regionally, et cetera. 00:22:22.730 --> 00:22:25.450 And all those individuals, all those different 00:22:25.450 --> 00:22:27.990 supports in your lives, your life, apologize, 00:22:28.190 --> 00:22:31.589 are gonna help you grow personally and professionally 00:22:31.589 --> 00:22:34.210 and will help you network and get you out of 00:22:34.210 --> 00:22:37.990 your comfort zone. I think we've been really 00:22:37.990 --> 00:22:41.950 fortunate through AMWA, through the ACP Forum, 00:22:42.069 --> 00:22:45.730 through Lean In Circles. We've had some homegrown 00:22:45.730 --> 00:22:49.500 women in medicine organizations as well. we've 00:22:49.500 --> 00:22:53.079 had the opportunity to create a forum to dialogue, 00:22:53.460 --> 00:22:56.819 very much like we're dialoguing today. We've 00:22:56.819 --> 00:23:00.940 had an opportunity to discuss shared experiences 00:23:00.940 --> 00:23:05.940 and most importantly, tangible tools. What are 00:23:05.940 --> 00:23:09.759 some evidence -based tools that we can use to 00:23:09.759 --> 00:23:14.200 help ourselves promote each other and move towards 00:23:14.200 --> 00:23:17.960 reducing that inequity and that gender gap? And 00:23:17.960 --> 00:23:20.920 so for example, at some of our women in medicine 00:23:20.920 --> 00:23:24.279 retreats, we've been able to bring in experts 00:23:24.279 --> 00:23:28.680 on negotiation. understand, you know, how do 00:23:28.680 --> 00:23:31.140 you negotiate and how do you know what to ask 00:23:31.140 --> 00:23:34.579 for? Where do you identify data around salary 00:23:34.579 --> 00:23:37.900 differentials? And then how do you go back into 00:23:37.900 --> 00:23:41.859 that conversation more prepared and pragmatic? 00:23:43.359 --> 00:23:45.599 We've had individuals come in and work with us 00:23:45.599 --> 00:23:51.240 on improv and we've done some acting. Because 00:23:51.240 --> 00:23:55.539 we know that as a profession, we have to be thinking 00:23:55.539 --> 00:23:58.759 on our feet, pivoting at any time, and really 00:23:58.759 --> 00:24:01.359 be able to bring that confidence, which is a 00:24:01.359 --> 00:24:07.279 practiced skill set, and move into that action. 00:24:08.259 --> 00:24:11.259 And certainly, you know, the more we get to share 00:24:11.259 --> 00:24:14.500 our voices together, we learn from each other. 00:24:14.619 --> 00:24:17.460 That is probably the most important thing because 00:24:17.460 --> 00:24:22.500 no two experiences are identical, similarities 00:24:22.500 --> 00:24:25.819 that bring us together, but it's those differences 00:24:25.819 --> 00:24:30.720 that allow us to leverage even stronger. I love 00:24:30.720 --> 00:24:35.180 that. In terms of mentorship, so it is someone 00:24:35.180 --> 00:24:36.980 like going through as like a resident, how do 00:24:36.980 --> 00:24:40.059 you find those mentors? How do you ask people 00:24:40.059 --> 00:24:43.000 to be a mentor? Or I don't know if sponsorship 00:24:43.000 --> 00:24:45.140 works the same way, but any advice on that for 00:24:45.140 --> 00:24:49.180 people who are on my stage of our career? That's 00:24:49.180 --> 00:24:54.019 a great question. I think coming from somebody 00:24:54.019 --> 00:24:57.359 personally who does not have the skill of just 00:24:57.359 --> 00:24:59.880 walking into the room and networking, maybe there 00:24:59.880 --> 00:25:02.019 are days when I can do that, but most days I 00:25:02.019 --> 00:25:06.279 can't. So I think taking small bites is where 00:25:06.279 --> 00:25:11.539 I started. In my groups, I could notice okay 00:25:11.539 --> 00:25:15.759 what are my interests and who is somebody that 00:25:15.759 --> 00:25:18.940 either has gotten there or has the skills to 00:25:18.940 --> 00:25:21.759 get there that I can. to chat with and pick their 00:25:21.759 --> 00:25:24.880 brain. And that's how it kind of came up with 00:25:24.880 --> 00:25:27.839 my first mentor, second mentor. And as I chatted 00:25:27.839 --> 00:25:30.759 with them a little more informally and had a 00:25:30.759 --> 00:25:32.460 connection, I don't know that I ever asked them 00:25:32.460 --> 00:25:34.759 to formally be my mentor. You know, one thing 00:25:34.759 --> 00:25:37.480 led to another, that connection. And as we had 00:25:37.480 --> 00:25:39.319 conversations and realized something else was 00:25:39.319 --> 00:25:41.279 an interest of mine, they would be able to point 00:25:41.279 --> 00:25:44.319 someone else out for me to touch base with, et 00:25:44.319 --> 00:25:48.180 cetera, for those different goals and aspirations. 00:25:49.160 --> 00:25:53.079 That's how I started. I think that, you know, 00:25:53.140 --> 00:25:58.279 it does take work. And the work is important 00:25:58.279 --> 00:26:00.960 to put in because the return on that investment 00:26:00.960 --> 00:26:05.619 is huge. I remember when I was probably at one 00:26:05.619 --> 00:26:09.319 of my first national conferences as a medical 00:26:09.319 --> 00:26:12.019 student, actually the American Academy of Pediatrics 00:26:12.019 --> 00:26:14.900 and our first MedPeds resident association, NAMPRA 00:26:14.900 --> 00:26:19.630 conference, I thought, Okay, these are all incredible 00:26:19.630 --> 00:26:22.609 people. I want them all to be my mentors, and 00:26:22.609 --> 00:26:25.250 I don't know how to ask them that. Over time. 00:26:26.309 --> 00:26:29.750 Exactly. It's so natural. It's so common. You 00:26:29.750 --> 00:26:32.769 are not alone for thinking that. Over time, I 00:26:32.769 --> 00:26:36.609 kind of learned to strategize and say, I would 00:26:36.609 --> 00:26:39.910 love to have a mentor really for the personal 00:26:39.910 --> 00:26:45.410 aspects of life. female med peds position program 00:26:45.410 --> 00:26:50.089 director that is really focusing on how she balances 00:26:50.089 --> 00:26:52.730 her personal life with her professional life. 00:26:52.750 --> 00:26:57.470 Yeah, we want that mentor who is that core academic 00:26:57.470 --> 00:26:59.549 mentor, the one who's written a lot of papers 00:26:59.549 --> 00:27:02.890 to say, how do I build a writing circle? How 00:27:02.890 --> 00:27:06.430 do I submit my first proposal for a conference? 00:27:07.210 --> 00:27:10.450 I also think it's very important to have a distance 00:27:10.450 --> 00:27:14.759 mentor. This mentor is an individual who is not 00:27:14.759 --> 00:27:18.380 at your institution, is not maybe you're even 00:27:18.380 --> 00:27:21.640 seeing interested specialty, but somebody who 00:27:21.640 --> 00:27:24.579 could sort of be that neutral perspective because 00:27:24.579 --> 00:27:26.680 you are going to be familiar and comfortable 00:27:26.680 --> 00:27:28.640 with the things and people you are familiar and 00:27:28.640 --> 00:27:31.339 comfortable with. Your distance mentor sort of 00:27:31.339 --> 00:27:35.250 sees things from a distance. you reflect in a 00:27:35.250 --> 00:27:37.789 different way, maybe challenge some of your suppositions 00:27:37.789 --> 00:27:41.609 and brings new insights and perspectives. And 00:27:41.609 --> 00:27:45.250 distance mentors are really found by doing something 00:27:45.250 --> 00:27:48.769 like we're doing now. Individuals serendipitously 00:27:48.769 --> 00:27:51.630 meet, but that can continue to stay in your circle 00:27:51.630 --> 00:27:54.670 because you actively build that relationship. 00:27:55.730 --> 00:27:59.740 Just to piggyback on that. is that those individuals 00:27:59.740 --> 00:28:01.980 that you'll have in different areas of mentorship 00:28:01.980 --> 00:28:05.000 and the distance mentors, they don't have to 00:28:05.000 --> 00:28:08.420 all be strong female leaders, right? You make 00:28:08.420 --> 00:28:11.599 that different perspective of a strong male leader 00:28:11.599 --> 00:28:13.700 that is great at research because that's the 00:28:13.700 --> 00:28:17.359 area you want to grow it, right? And so different 00:28:17.359 --> 00:28:20.740 individuals, whether it's different genders, 00:28:21.019 --> 00:28:23.440 different roles, different specialties, different 00:28:23.440 --> 00:28:26.460 locations, they all serve a really great purpose. 00:28:26.920 --> 00:28:29.579 Do you want to make a quick comment on sponsorship? 00:28:30.880 --> 00:28:34.000 There's a lot of literature that has been written 00:28:34.000 --> 00:28:35.920 around mentorship, coaching, and sponsorship, 00:28:36.019 --> 00:28:37.599 and actually the American Medical Association 00:28:37.599 --> 00:28:41.660 has a really great toolkit on coaching and mentorship 00:28:41.660 --> 00:28:45.160 and sponsorship as well, which individuals should 00:28:45.160 --> 00:28:48.299 feel free to access. The key piece about sponsorship 00:28:48.299 --> 00:28:53.819 is that any point in time that You are in some 00:28:53.819 --> 00:28:58.180 type of semi -formal or formal position without 00:28:58.180 --> 00:29:01.019 that pay it forward mentality. And that's what 00:29:01.019 --> 00:29:04.519 sponsorship is. We all do that so seamlessly 00:29:04.519 --> 00:29:06.900 on the wards when we become fourth year medical 00:29:06.900 --> 00:29:09.420 students. And we see that third year medical 00:29:09.420 --> 00:29:12.799 student who might be on that inpatient experience 00:29:12.799 --> 00:29:16.680 for the first time, right? We offer those insights. 00:29:17.160 --> 00:29:19.559 We help them identify how to write that first 00:29:19.559 --> 00:29:22.410 soap note. we talk about, hey, are you applying? 00:29:22.569 --> 00:29:24.690 I'm in the application process now. Let me tell 00:29:24.690 --> 00:29:28.069 you what it's like. Take that model and transfer 00:29:28.069 --> 00:29:30.769 it at every stage of your life. And when you 00:29:30.769 --> 00:29:32.869 get to that point of saying, you know what? I 00:29:32.869 --> 00:29:35.250 have a position that's vacant. I want to sponsor 00:29:35.250 --> 00:29:40.049 the person that I believe is best qualified and 00:29:40.049 --> 00:29:42.990 really deserves that opportunity that maybe somebody 00:29:42.990 --> 00:29:46.650 else won't see her, but I do. I really love that. 00:29:46.730 --> 00:29:49.069 I love that. It feels like it's a little bit 00:29:49.069 --> 00:29:51.289 about intentionality and self -reflection and 00:29:51.289 --> 00:29:54.190 introspection, but it's also about being genuine 00:29:54.190 --> 00:29:56.930 and just starting to connect with people. And 00:29:56.930 --> 00:29:59.309 I think letting that guide it a little bit and 00:29:59.309 --> 00:30:02.769 letting your inner reflection guide that a little 00:30:02.769 --> 00:30:05.269 bit as well. But it's about trying, I think. 00:30:05.329 --> 00:30:07.009 It's about showing up and trying a little bit 00:30:07.009 --> 00:30:11.789 is what I'm... My summary of this wonderful advice 00:30:11.789 --> 00:30:16.309 I've just gotten. Today we've covered a lot already. 00:30:16.569 --> 00:30:20.289 My next question is kind of trying to pivot a 00:30:20.289 --> 00:30:22.670 little bit more about being a little more personal 00:30:22.670 --> 00:30:24.910 and we kind of mentioned it already about work 00:30:24.910 --> 00:30:27.829 -life integration and boundaries. The term work 00:30:27.829 --> 00:30:29.990 -life balance gets thrown around a lot. but I 00:30:29.990 --> 00:30:31.849 feel like many of us feel like that's an impossible 00:30:31.849 --> 00:30:34.450 standard, especially as women in medicine. I 00:30:34.450 --> 00:30:36.450 feel like that's something we often struggle 00:30:36.450 --> 00:30:39.230 with even earlier stages. How do each of you 00:30:39.230 --> 00:30:41.470 kind of approach that work -life integration 00:30:41.470 --> 00:30:44.890 and what's helped make it sustainable, if at 00:30:44.890 --> 00:30:46.650 all, or if you have a different way you approach 00:30:46.650 --> 00:30:49.529 it, that also I feel like would be cool to share. 00:30:50.609 --> 00:30:55.170 Yeah, I have navigated this question over and 00:30:55.170 --> 00:30:58.250 over again, so I'm so glad we're talking about 00:30:58.250 --> 00:31:03.200 it. Honestly, I don't think work -life balance 00:31:03.200 --> 00:31:06.420 exists. Now, this is me, this is very personal, 00:31:06.759 --> 00:31:12.819 but I think what I strive now to do as a mother 00:31:12.819 --> 00:31:16.539 of two incredible boys, as a community leader, 00:31:16.980 --> 00:31:20.140 as a faith organization goer, as a physician, 00:31:20.259 --> 00:31:23.579 as a leader in medical education, I strive for 00:31:23.579 --> 00:31:25.539 sustainability. And you mentioned that word, 00:31:25.700 --> 00:31:27.990 right? That's exactly what you said. Like, how 00:31:27.990 --> 00:31:31.970 do you, in your perspective, you're probably 00:31:31.970 --> 00:31:34.809 thinking, how do we make this career sustainable? 00:31:35.049 --> 00:31:38.329 And that's what it is. Work -life balance, work 00:31:38.329 --> 00:31:40.869 -life integration, I think work -life 3 .0 is 00:31:40.869 --> 00:31:44.089 work -life sustainability. And when I think about 00:31:44.089 --> 00:31:47.930 that, I ask myself the question, yeah, can I 00:31:47.930 --> 00:31:51.109 listen in on a meeting while making dinner and 00:31:51.109 --> 00:31:56.160 feeding my children? Yes, yes, I can do it. Is 00:31:56.160 --> 00:31:59.799 that the best way for me to be mentally present 00:31:59.799 --> 00:32:04.720 in either domain? Not necessarily. And so I've 00:32:04.720 --> 00:32:07.480 had to make some calculated decisions. I've had 00:32:07.480 --> 00:32:12.279 to set boundaries and I've had to really think 00:32:12.279 --> 00:32:14.359 about what it means to bring my full self to 00:32:14.359 --> 00:32:18.460 each effort. Sometimes that looks like asking, 00:32:18.460 --> 00:32:22.799 you know, my administrative team lead to block 00:32:22.799 --> 00:32:27.420 my schedule at 4 p .m. because You know, I don't 00:32:27.420 --> 00:32:29.200 have a babysitter for the next couple of weeks 00:32:29.200 --> 00:32:31.539 and that means that I can't take in -person meetings 00:32:31.539 --> 00:32:33.880 and that I will be at home and I will show up 00:32:33.880 --> 00:32:36.579 at home and my presence is needed at home and 00:32:36.579 --> 00:32:40.079 everybody around me knows that expectation. Sometimes 00:32:40.079 --> 00:32:43.299 it's saying that I have an opportunity to co 00:32:43.299 --> 00:32:46.559 -partner with my esteemed colleague Duck Condos 00:32:46.559 --> 00:32:51.640 with an incredible podcasting joy today and that's 00:32:51.640 --> 00:32:55.390 me telling my home life Dinner's on you guys, 00:32:55.470 --> 00:32:58.990 I'm gonna be out for the next four hours. And 00:32:58.990 --> 00:33:02.829 ultimately, what I'm getting at here is that 00:33:02.829 --> 00:33:06.529 it's the intentionality we spoke about earlier. 00:33:07.269 --> 00:33:10.869 It's not feeling guilty. And it's really being 00:33:10.869 --> 00:33:14.950 tactical about looking at your priorities, what 00:33:14.950 --> 00:33:17.450 matters in that moment, and then really focusing 00:33:17.450 --> 00:33:20.650 in to build that experience to maximize that. 00:33:22.780 --> 00:33:26.059 Absolutely. I also really love that we're talking 00:33:26.059 --> 00:33:29.039 about this because it truly is a question that 00:33:29.039 --> 00:33:31.180 I don't know that I'll ever be able to fully 00:33:31.180 --> 00:33:37.019 answer, give the perfect answer for. But as we're 00:33:37.019 --> 00:33:39.839 juggling these multiple different aspects in 00:33:39.839 --> 00:33:43.700 our life, different titles of who we are necessarily 00:33:43.700 --> 00:33:48.390 or who we want to be, it brings up an Instagram 00:33:48.390 --> 00:33:50.390 reel that multiple people have actually shared 00:33:50.390 --> 00:33:53.650 with me in different places and spaces. So I 00:33:53.650 --> 00:33:57.589 thought it really illustrated this well. And 00:33:57.589 --> 00:34:00.089 what it showed is that we're always juggling 00:34:00.089 --> 00:34:06.069 multiple balls at once, right? And it is, you 00:34:06.069 --> 00:34:10.489 know, the key is to discern which balls are rubber 00:34:10.489 --> 00:34:14.010 and will bounce back and which ones are glass. 00:34:14.300 --> 00:34:17.460 and will shatter if you drop them. And that is 00:34:17.460 --> 00:34:21.679 in that moment, in that hour, in that week, in 00:34:21.679 --> 00:34:27.300 that month. But the key there is being able to 00:34:27.300 --> 00:34:30.659 discern, right? Because your goal in life is 00:34:30.659 --> 00:34:34.260 not to be perfect and carry all the balls at 00:34:34.260 --> 00:34:39.730 once. It is to be present and carry those that 00:34:39.730 --> 00:34:43.650 will shatter if you drop them. And knowing that 00:34:43.650 --> 00:34:46.570 you can implement multiple tools to try to figure 00:34:46.570 --> 00:34:48.690 out which ones are glass for you and some are 00:34:48.690 --> 00:34:51.730 just intuitively glass and you know you are. 00:34:51.869 --> 00:34:54.190 cannot knock them and others you really need 00:34:54.190 --> 00:34:57.409 to think strategically about which you have to 00:34:57.409 --> 00:35:00.090 commit to in that moment like Dr. Devatia was 00:35:00.090 --> 00:35:04.210 explaining. But that shift in mindset will really 00:35:04.210 --> 00:35:07.550 give you the freedom to stop chasing perfection 00:35:07.550 --> 00:35:11.969 and start choosing presence. I really love that 00:35:11.969 --> 00:35:14.050 analogy. I feel like I've heard the ball juggling 00:35:14.050 --> 00:35:17.409 analogy but not the taking the time to decide 00:35:17.409 --> 00:35:19.590 which one is rubber and which one is glass. I 00:35:19.590 --> 00:35:21.909 feel like that's a big perspective shift of how 00:35:21.909 --> 00:35:24.869 you can view it. So like I really appreciate 00:35:24.869 --> 00:35:27.949 that analogy and the real that came into your 00:35:27.949 --> 00:35:35.929 life. And we kind of mentioned boundaries in 00:35:35.929 --> 00:35:37.909 terms of boundaries of professionally, boundaries 00:35:37.909 --> 00:35:40.650 personally, and I feel like boundaries are essential, 00:35:40.750 --> 00:35:42.789 especially in leadership, but they're often hard 00:35:42.789 --> 00:35:45.110 to set, especially in medicine, especially in 00:35:45.110 --> 00:35:49.090 different aspects of medical training. What boundaries 00:35:49.090 --> 00:35:51.230 have you learned to protect over time and how 00:35:51.230 --> 00:35:53.469 has that kind of changed your relationship with 00:35:53.469 --> 00:35:58.489 work and leadership? Great question. Also one 00:35:58.489 --> 00:36:00.889 of those million dollar questions and boundaries 00:36:00.889 --> 00:36:04.369 is something that has always been difficult for 00:36:04.369 --> 00:36:06.610 me because I am still working and I think will 00:36:06.610 --> 00:36:09.590 forever be working on creating and upholding 00:36:09.590 --> 00:36:14.989 boundaries without guilt, which is the key. And 00:36:14.989 --> 00:36:18.489 one thing that's been helpful for me is having 00:36:18.489 --> 00:36:22.150 clear bidirectional communication between myself 00:36:22.150 --> 00:36:26.530 and the other party. kind of set a boundary with, 00:36:26.690 --> 00:36:29.309 right? And not assuming their expectations of 00:36:29.309 --> 00:36:32.769 me or vice versa. And really reminding myself 00:36:32.769 --> 00:36:37.269 that time is our most valuable asset and needs 00:36:37.269 --> 00:36:40.190 to be protected. And so how I want to use that 00:36:40.190 --> 00:36:44.090 time needs to be determined by me and not actually 00:36:44.090 --> 00:36:48.690 by someone else. And external factors should 00:36:48.690 --> 00:36:53.409 not dictate how my time is spent. Now, in reality, 00:36:53.570 --> 00:36:57.070 right? That is the goal. So how do you actually 00:36:57.070 --> 00:37:02.489 make that happen, I think, is based on almost 00:37:02.489 --> 00:37:06.070 analyzing every situation. And so I have found 00:37:06.070 --> 00:37:09.349 that very exhausting. And actually, as I was 00:37:09.349 --> 00:37:14.750 listening to an audio book recently, I loved 00:37:14.750 --> 00:37:17.750 a different framework that I would like to share. 00:37:19.039 --> 00:37:22.380 This framework is actually built around figuring 00:37:22.380 --> 00:37:26.119 out the emphatic yes. So it's a lot easier for 00:37:26.119 --> 00:37:31.619 you to say no. And this author was speaking about 00:37:31.619 --> 00:37:35.159 setting big, hairy, audacious goals. So something 00:37:35.159 --> 00:37:38.079 called BHAGS, which is a term that was coined 00:37:38.079 --> 00:37:41.360 by Jim Collins and Jerry Porras in their book, 00:37:41.420 --> 00:37:45.519 Built to Last. And the idea is if you set these 00:37:45.519 --> 00:37:48.900 big, hairy, audacious goals, right, your goals 00:37:48.900 --> 00:37:51.400 in the next like five years or 10 years that 00:37:51.400 --> 00:37:54.099 we actually tend to underestimate ourselves on, 00:37:54.460 --> 00:37:59.639 then you will have this sharp vision and this 00:37:59.639 --> 00:38:02.960 commitment to get to that goal. And so it's a 00:38:02.960 --> 00:38:06.000 lot easier for you to see all these other things 00:38:06.000 --> 00:38:09.300 as distractions from that goal. It's a lot easier 00:38:09.300 --> 00:38:12.219 for you to say no, not today. Today I need to 00:38:12.219 --> 00:38:15.519 commit to writing that next chapter because I 00:38:15.519 --> 00:38:19.869 am going to write my book by Um april of 2026 00:38:19.869 --> 00:38:22.250 and in order to do so I need to write a chapter 00:38:22.250 --> 00:38:25.849 a month And I need to refine it whereas if someone 00:38:25.849 --> 00:38:28.030 comes in and says, oh, but can you please help 00:38:28.030 --> 00:38:30.130 me? You know mow my lawn or you know thinking 00:38:30.130 --> 00:38:32.929 of something But something that you would naturally 00:38:32.929 --> 00:38:35.150 want to say yes to because you're a kind human 00:38:35.150 --> 00:38:37.590 being and you want to help others You know saying 00:38:37.590 --> 00:38:40.849 no is not that you are a mean individual or you 00:38:40.849 --> 00:38:43.489 don't care about that person, but you really 00:38:43.489 --> 00:38:47.699 do have your large goals in mind and you are 00:38:47.699 --> 00:38:49.920 like emphatically saying yes to those and you 00:38:49.920 --> 00:38:52.159 are saturated. So other things are much easier 00:38:52.159 --> 00:38:54.219 to say no to and that boundary is a lot easier 00:38:54.219 --> 00:38:58.579 to set. You know, Dr. Condos, I love that concept 00:38:58.579 --> 00:39:00.840 and I personally haven't heard of that term BHAG 00:39:00.840 --> 00:39:03.960 until you're defining it here today. So I'm definitely 00:39:03.960 --> 00:39:08.039 going to take a moment to get the book built 00:39:08.039 --> 00:39:11.659 to last so that we know we keep on lasting. It 00:39:11.659 --> 00:39:15.980 reminds me of what one of my coaches, Dr. Kamil 00:39:15.980 --> 00:39:19.340 Upchurch, shared with me. She's a physician who 00:39:19.340 --> 00:39:23.639 does wealth coaching for women and she asked 00:39:23.639 --> 00:39:27.559 me the question, she said, who is Himani 14 .0? 00:39:28.269 --> 00:39:31.730 And I think we spend so much time thinking of 00:39:31.730 --> 00:39:35.010 who we were of the past, a decent amount of time 00:39:35.010 --> 00:39:37.050 thinking, and maybe even worrying about who we 00:39:37.050 --> 00:39:39.510 will be of the future, that we don't have enough 00:39:39.510 --> 00:39:44.010 time thinking about who is the us 14 .0 and what 00:39:44.010 --> 00:39:47.570 are our BHAGs. But if we do think about those 00:39:47.570 --> 00:39:51.710 goals, we set them as ones that are bold, able 00:39:51.710 --> 00:39:56.050 to then define our boundaries, again, out of 00:39:56.139 --> 00:39:58.760 strength and confidence and forward progress 00:39:58.760 --> 00:40:01.380 rather than guilt and feeling like we're letting 00:40:01.380 --> 00:40:06.179 ourselves and others down. I love that. I love 00:40:06.179 --> 00:40:09.340 the framework. I love the intentionality of it 00:40:09.340 --> 00:40:12.699 all. I really appreciate your thoughts on that 00:40:12.699 --> 00:40:14.639 setting those kind of like boundaries and I feel 00:40:14.639 --> 00:40:18.579 like it is hard especially the guilt part and 00:40:18.579 --> 00:40:21.320 so I thank you for that and I feel like you both 00:40:21.320 --> 00:40:24.460 are navigating still demanding careers and meaningful 00:40:24.460 --> 00:40:27.940 leadership. positions and opportunities. If you 00:40:27.940 --> 00:40:30.440 had to mentor your younger self, what's one truth, 00:40:30.599 --> 00:40:33.019 one lesson you wish you would have known earlier? 00:40:36.460 --> 00:40:40.260 This one does evoke a little bit of emotion. 00:40:44.199 --> 00:40:46.280 Because there are a lot of things I would have 00:40:46.280 --> 00:40:49.119 said to my younger self. The great part is we 00:40:49.119 --> 00:40:52.920 get to say those here and now to individuals, 00:40:53.139 --> 00:40:57.139 to women who are a decade or maybe even more 00:40:57.139 --> 00:41:01.599 in this journey where we were maybe a decade 00:41:01.599 --> 00:41:06.500 ago. And I would just say be courageous, be confident. 00:41:06.780 --> 00:41:09.900 and be coached. I personally spent way too many 00:41:09.900 --> 00:41:12.800 years inside my own head. I wish I would have 00:41:12.800 --> 00:41:15.139 been able to speak up in forums where I was a 00:41:15.139 --> 00:41:17.719 minority. I wish I might have been a little less 00:41:17.719 --> 00:41:21.679 afraid of failure so that I could see what possibilities 00:41:21.679 --> 00:41:25.340 exist. And I wish I could have been guided actively 00:41:25.340 --> 00:41:28.739 by certain professionals. We are certainly guided 00:41:28.739 --> 00:41:32.599 in that medical space by our attendings and really 00:41:32.599 --> 00:41:37.150 learning the clinical realm. But I think it's 00:41:37.150 --> 00:41:39.610 important to be guided by other professionals 00:41:39.610 --> 00:41:43.510 to really understand and work through scenarios, 00:41:43.949 --> 00:41:47.670 maybe do some visioning exercises and think strategically 00:41:47.670 --> 00:41:50.659 about again. who we are, what are our values? 00:41:50.820 --> 00:41:53.019 What do we bring to each experience? And what 00:41:53.019 --> 00:41:55.639 do we intend to get out of every experience? 00:41:55.880 --> 00:41:58.800 So be courageous, be confident. I know that's 00:41:58.800 --> 00:42:02.980 like the worst feedback I used to get on my, 00:42:02.980 --> 00:42:06.460 you know, new innovations, evaluations, like 00:42:06.460 --> 00:42:08.719 be more confident, but it is true, right? But 00:42:08.719 --> 00:42:11.239 how do you be more confident? It's to take that 00:42:11.239 --> 00:42:13.800 active step of being coached or being in these 00:42:13.800 --> 00:42:16.500 circles, like the Lean In Circles and ACP Women 00:42:16.500 --> 00:42:19.480 in Medicine, AMWA, so that we... can really coach 00:42:19.480 --> 00:42:23.420 each other into that next 14 .0 version of each 00:42:23.420 --> 00:42:26.320 of us. Absolutely. And really, like you said 00:42:26.320 --> 00:42:30.679 earlier, get those practical tools on how to 00:42:30.679 --> 00:42:33.059 do that, knowing that show up more confident, 00:42:33.260 --> 00:42:35.280 how to show more confident, how to show more 00:42:35.280 --> 00:42:37.880 courageous and get that insight from your coaches. 00:42:38.079 --> 00:42:41.230 And so I think From my standpoint, tactically, 00:42:41.550 --> 00:42:46.489 that means giving yourself time to reflect and 00:42:46.489 --> 00:42:51.469 be intentional. Get clear about what your values 00:42:51.469 --> 00:42:55.949 are, what your priorities are, who you are, which 00:42:55.949 --> 00:42:58.590 is a very difficult question to answer as I try 00:42:58.590 --> 00:43:01.389 to answer my coach, who you are, not as defined 00:43:01.389 --> 00:43:04.150 by your roles. but just who you are and who you 00:43:04.150 --> 00:43:07.710 want to be. Because if you don't allow yourself 00:43:07.710 --> 00:43:10.989 time to think about that and be intentional about 00:43:10.989 --> 00:43:13.250 that, you will just keep going, going, going, 00:43:13.250 --> 00:43:17.789 and then years will pass by, right? And you have 00:43:17.789 --> 00:43:19.889 these, I wish I would have, I wish I could have, 00:43:19.989 --> 00:43:22.949 et cetera. And I think every experience is... 00:43:23.039 --> 00:43:26.099 as important and timely, et cetera. But if I 00:43:26.099 --> 00:43:28.559 were to go back, I would like to create that 00:43:28.559 --> 00:43:30.860 time, that intentional time of reflection, getting 00:43:30.860 --> 00:43:34.679 clear and really making the space to get courageous, 00:43:35.039 --> 00:43:38.480 confident, encouraged. I think that's really 00:43:38.480 --> 00:43:40.900 important for us to hear when we are where we 00:43:40.900 --> 00:43:42.719 are now, especially as like fourth year medical 00:43:42.719 --> 00:43:45.820 students or residents. because I feel like we're 00:43:45.820 --> 00:43:48.840 I think there are moments of our of like our 00:43:48.840 --> 00:43:50.699 chosen career where there is time to think and 00:43:50.699 --> 00:43:52.780 reflect and have those things but sometimes it's 00:43:52.780 --> 00:43:55.780 a go go go I feel like like I think before medical 00:43:55.780 --> 00:43:57.059 school is one of those points like where do you 00:43:57.059 --> 00:43:59.400 want to be I think right now applying a residency 00:43:59.400 --> 00:44:00.880 for me is one of those points what do I want 00:44:00.880 --> 00:44:02.820 to be but I feel like in that in between it's 00:44:02.820 --> 00:44:05.429 go go go and I feel like I think I feel like 00:44:05.429 --> 00:44:07.230 what you guys have said of taking that time, 00:44:07.329 --> 00:44:10.170 even in that go, go, go to build space for yourself, 00:44:10.289 --> 00:44:12.230 I think is really important. And I think it's 00:44:12.230 --> 00:44:14.650 something, again, intentionally you have to build 00:44:14.650 --> 00:44:17.170 space for and time for. So I think it will be 00:44:17.170 --> 00:44:19.630 really useful for people like me who are listening 00:44:19.630 --> 00:44:21.869 to this podcast, who are in this stage of life, 00:44:21.969 --> 00:44:25.949 to hear that. I just want to add a quick insight 00:44:25.949 --> 00:44:31.309 piece into that. The ACGME offers the opportunity 00:44:31.309 --> 00:44:34.190 for residents to give feedback both around kind 00:44:34.190 --> 00:44:36.829 of core programmatic issues annually once the 00:44:36.829 --> 00:44:40.789 ACGME program survey, but they also have a wellbeing 00:44:40.789 --> 00:44:43.309 survey where really you have the opportunity 00:44:43.309 --> 00:44:46.050 to think about, how do we structurally create 00:44:46.050 --> 00:44:48.630 these environments where you have time to reflect 00:44:48.630 --> 00:44:51.489 and what's the data showing? And we've seen actually 00:44:51.489 --> 00:44:55.460 that, The data shows that the number one question 00:44:55.460 --> 00:44:58.760 in need of really improvement is that I have 00:44:58.760 --> 00:45:01.500 enough time to think and reflect during my work 00:45:01.500 --> 00:45:05.219 experience. And ultimately, that is a contributor 00:45:05.219 --> 00:45:07.400 towards emotional exhaustion, which is one of 00:45:07.400 --> 00:45:12.119 the three facets that leads to burnout. As leaders, 00:45:12.480 --> 00:45:17.000 as educators, as physicians, as women together, 00:45:17.360 --> 00:45:20.199 we should really think about how do we create 00:45:20.400 --> 00:45:23.719 that intentional time, certainly do it on your 00:45:23.719 --> 00:45:27.139 own time and space when you can, but structurally, 00:45:27.360 --> 00:45:29.920 systemically, how do we also work together to 00:45:29.920 --> 00:45:32.360 create time? For example, during your clinic 00:45:32.360 --> 00:45:34.820 sessions, you know, do you create a little bit 00:45:34.820 --> 00:45:39.619 of admin time for the team to just have some 00:45:39.619 --> 00:45:43.119 time to journal and reflection? We have a forum 00:45:43.119 --> 00:45:46.019 here for narrative medicine. And so do we create 00:45:46.019 --> 00:45:48.219 that time to reflect and think through a form 00:45:48.219 --> 00:45:51.340 of narrative medicine? It's really important 00:45:51.340 --> 00:45:53.579 and we know that the data says that we have less 00:45:53.579 --> 00:45:56.139 and less time to think and reflect, but the time 00:45:56.139 --> 00:46:00.800 to do that even more so than ever is now. I really 00:46:00.800 --> 00:46:03.400 love that. I think that perspective of like structurally 00:46:03.400 --> 00:46:05.139 I think is also good for us to hear because I 00:46:05.139 --> 00:46:08.940 think we have less control of that as students 00:46:08.940 --> 00:46:11.280 and as residents and I feel like thinking about 00:46:11.280 --> 00:46:13.760 that and seeking that out I think is also something 00:46:13.760 --> 00:46:16.300 that we that we can do. We can't create it right 00:46:16.300 --> 00:46:18.099 now but we can seek it out so I think that's 00:46:18.099 --> 00:46:22.469 really good for people to hear. My last question 00:46:22.469 --> 00:46:25.989 for our time today is what's one hope you carry 00:46:25.989 --> 00:46:28.210 for the next generation of women in medicine 00:46:28.210 --> 00:46:31.590 and what role do you see yourself playing in 00:46:31.590 --> 00:46:37.250 helping that hope become reality? That's a great 00:46:37.250 --> 00:46:41.139 question. try to be succinct about this, as I 00:46:41.139 --> 00:46:43.840 think we did address a lot and there's so many 00:46:43.840 --> 00:46:47.940 hopes that we have, but I do think overall my 00:46:47.940 --> 00:46:51.639 hope is that we continue to see one another and 00:46:51.639 --> 00:46:54.699 to build each other up and not feel threatened 00:46:54.699 --> 00:47:00.059 by one another's successes. And by we, I mean 00:47:00.059 --> 00:47:02.440 the collective we, right, as like women leaders, 00:47:03.340 --> 00:47:08.460 as physicians and Also our very diverse work 00:47:08.460 --> 00:47:11.139 group, right? Our colleagues that are not women, 00:47:11.320 --> 00:47:13.980 that maybe are not leaders. I think we find that 00:47:13.980 --> 00:47:16.820 support in each area and that mentorship that 00:47:16.820 --> 00:47:20.880 we talked about earlier in each area and really 00:47:20.880 --> 00:47:25.969 being able to bring to light. those issues that 00:47:25.969 --> 00:47:29.949 continue to feed into gender inequity, right? 00:47:30.269 --> 00:47:33.829 And noticing them, talking about them, finding 00:47:33.829 --> 00:47:38.929 ways to normalize and not stigmatize that divide 00:47:38.929 --> 00:47:41.809 and maybe the larger mental load that we carry 00:47:41.809 --> 00:47:44.469 as a barrier for us excelling in our careers. 00:47:46.570 --> 00:47:50.809 I absolutely agree. It's to not live in silos 00:47:50.809 --> 00:47:55.389 and fear, but to live in a space of collaboration. 00:47:55.789 --> 00:47:59.550 courageous conversations and critical changes. 00:48:00.510 --> 00:48:03.349 I really hope that we can together, you know, 00:48:03.409 --> 00:48:06.769 with all of our colleagues advocate for things 00:48:06.769 --> 00:48:10.389 such as paid parental leave, workplace accommodations 00:48:10.389 --> 00:48:14.650 that enable individuals to choose to breastfeed 00:48:14.650 --> 00:48:19.250 if they want. And for example, really talk about 00:48:19.530 --> 00:48:23.329 going into practice with your counterparts who 00:48:23.329 --> 00:48:25.809 may not be female and saying, Hey, you know, 00:48:26.230 --> 00:48:29.210 what does your contract say? And are we having 00:48:29.210 --> 00:48:32.170 similar benefits? And how do we help each other 00:48:32.170 --> 00:48:35.510 maximize our potential? Because we each are valued 00:48:35.510 --> 00:48:40.269 based on our, our skills and our experiences, 00:48:40.369 --> 00:48:45.289 and not necessarily, you know, these gender definitions. 00:48:45.730 --> 00:48:49.360 And so really, it's thinking about how we can 00:48:49.360 --> 00:48:52.900 come together, as Dr. Condeau said, use spaces 00:48:52.900 --> 00:48:56.440 as this forum and others to create sounding boards 00:48:56.440 --> 00:49:00.920 and ultimately have a place where we feel free 00:49:00.920 --> 00:49:03.840 of judgment and shame, but one that we can empower 00:49:03.840 --> 00:49:08.739 each other towards mutual acclaim. Thank you 00:49:08.739 --> 00:49:10.900 both for being here today. I think this conversation 00:49:10.900 --> 00:49:14.019 is very enlightening for me and I hope for many 00:49:14.019 --> 00:49:17.659 of our leaders as well. hope for many of our 00:49:17.659 --> 00:49:22.260 listeners as well, and leaders. And that's a 00:49:22.260 --> 00:49:24.699 wrap on this episode of Our Voices, Our Future. 00:49:25.039 --> 00:49:27.500 We hope today's conversation inspired you, challenged 00:49:27.500 --> 00:49:29.980 you, reminded you of the power of raising your 00:49:29.980 --> 00:49:32.519 voice. The fight for equity doesn't stop here. 00:49:32.679 --> 00:49:35.440 Join us in the movement. Subscribe wherever you 00:49:35.440 --> 00:49:37.480 get your podcasts. And if you love this episode, 00:49:37.760 --> 00:49:40.170 share it with someone who needs to hear it. Today's 00:49:40.170 --> 00:49:43.130 story reminded us that leadership takes many 00:49:43.130 --> 00:49:45.690 forms, and we hope this episode sparks reflection 00:49:45.690 --> 00:49:48.789 and action. Until next time, stay bold, stay 00:49:48.789 --> 00:49:51.010 vocal, and keep the conversation going. This 00:49:51.010 --> 00:49:52.230 is Our Voices for Future.