Welcome to Our Voice is Our Future, the podcast
where we amplify the voices driving change and
equity within medicine and beyond. Brought to
you by the Gender Equity Task Force, a committee
of the American Medical Women's Association.
We're here to challenge storms, break barriers,
and ignite conversations that matter. I'm Megan
Etsy, and in each episode, we'll bring you candid
discussions with leaders, change makers, and
advocates working to create a more inclusive
and just world. No more silence, no more waiting.
You're listening to Our Voices, Our Future. Let's
get into it. Today we're welcoming husband and
wife, Dr. Ebony Anderson and Dr. Daryl Trailer.
Dr. Anderson serves as the Director of Community
Oriented Primary Care and an Associate Professor
at the public health at A .T. Still University
School of Osteopathic Medicine in Arizona. As
a Detroit native who grew up in an underserved
area with many odds against her, she brings more
than two decades of experience as an educator,
social worker, and public health leader. Her
work bridges the classroom. clinics, and communities,
all with a focus on equity, inclusion, and well
-being. She's also a certified guidance counselor,
researcher, author, and mentor who's passionate
about helping others thrive in both academic
and healthcare spaces. Her research looks at
resilience among people living and aging with
HIV and AIDS, the well -being of health professions,
educators, and staffs, and how we can dismantle
structural inequities in medical education and
workforce development. And if that weren't enough,
she's a six -time college graduate, holding a
bachelor's degree in English and a master's in
counseling from Wayne State University, two additional
master degrees in social work and post -secondary
education from Arizona State University, and
dual doctorates, one in health education from
A .T. Still University and another in health
professions education from Bellamereen University.
Through her teaching, scholarship, and mentorship,
Dr. Anderson has become a powerful powerful voice
for creating systems that honor equity, compassion,
and the lived experiences of those they serve.
Please join me in welcoming Dr. Ebony Anderson.
Thanks for being here. Thanks for having me.
Yeah. And then her husband, another amazing guest
whose story truly bridges science, service, and
social impact is Dr. Daryl Trailer. Dr. Trailer
is a proud alumnus of the Summer Health Professions
Education Program at the University of Alabama
in Birmingham. and his academic journey is nothing
short of inspiring. He holds dual bachelor's
degrees, one in microbiology from Arizona State
University and another in community health promotion
from Northern Arizona University, along with
a master's in pharmacology and an MPH from Michigan
State University. He went on to earn his PhD
in nursing with a focus on community -based participatory
research from the University of Missouri, and
he's currently pursuing both an MD at Oceana
University of Medicine and a doctor PhD at California
Baptist University. Before entering academia,
Dr. Traylor served as a U .S. Army combat medic,
an experience that continues to shape his commitment
to equity, resilience, and compassionate healthcare.
Having overcome periods of temporary homelessness
and a vision impairment, he brings both lived
and professional experience to his mission of
advancing evidence -based, inclusive care. His
research explores HIV prevention and PrEP implementation,
health disparities, sexual misconduct, and safety
in medical education, and the health effects
of climate change, all through community engagement
and translational approaches designed to strengthen
trust in healthcare systems. Dr. Traylor currently
serves as Adjunct Faculty in Life Sciences at
Arizona State University, and in Public Health
at A .T. Still University. He's also a founding
faculty member for the new Bachelor of Science
in Health Science program at Chamberlain University.
Please join me in welcoming a scholar, educator,
veteran, and changemaker, Dr. Darrell Traylor.
Thanks for being here. Hey, y 'all. So let's
get into it. Let's kind of start with your guys'
stories. Can you each share a bit of what inspired
your path into medicine and all of this education
and degrees and everything you guys have done
that have kind of shaped the way that you guys
show up in not only the healthcare fields, but
kind of just holistically as people who give
back a bunch? Well, I'll start first. So medicine
was something that I always wanted to get into
but I don't think that I don't think that I really
Truly knew it until I was in my combat medic
training But I think the first time I really
felt that medicine was something I want to do
was probably summer of 1982 I was a kid and my
mom unfortunately had a long -standing issue
with substance abuse and there came a day where
you know, she was high on something and I thought
she was dead because she, you know, wasn't responsive
or anything like that. And I just remember sort
of sitting there at her side all day, feeling
this real helplessness, you know, because there
wasn't I didn't know what to do. And I just remember
telling myself, you know, I wish that I had the
skills or the knowledge or something to help
mom. Then later on in life, after I was discharged
from active duty, one of my best friends from
the army, Jeff Lucena, he He was HIV positive,
actually had progressed to full -blown AIDS,
and his family wouldn't let him go back to Guam
to be buried. His family was very homophobic
and everything, so he spent the last six or seven
months of his life living with me. And just that
process of trying to care for him and seeing
all the barriers that folks with HIV and AIDS
faced was really, really very eye -opening. you
know, to me. And that was just something that
continued to contribute, you know, to this desire
to get into medicine. And then later as I met
Ebony's father, or Ebony, in 2006, and then subsequently
met her father, you know, he unfortunately passed
away. He was HIV positive, but HIV wasn't what
killed him. It was actually medical ignorance.
You know, the people at the hospital where he
died. We're afraid to do a needed surgery because
of his HIV status. They essentially let him die.
And so all of these stories just sort of come
together for me and kind of inform this desire
to practice medicine. All the degrees, though,
I just think me and Ebony are crazy or something.
I don't know. I just I love learning. You know,
we get it. We get it. You know, my grandmother
always told me, son, get as much education as
you can, because people can't take that from
you. And so as long as I still have goals, something
to chase, then it just sort of excites me and
just keeps me going. That's awesome. Yeah, thank
you. Ebony, what do you got? Yeah, I mean, Darrell
covered pretty much everything that, you know,
I feel about this. But just to add to it, you
know, as someone who is not a physician, you
know, someone who has training in behavioral
and social science, I, for one, you know, feel
that it is a call of duty to do this work, particularly
teaching students who are pursuing health professions
and more specifically medical education on the
social determinants of health because of the
public health background. And more than that,
deeper than that, as Daryl said, it's a personal
feeling for me. It's a personal experience because
I've lost not just my father, but I've lost my
mom. you know, along this journey. And, you know,
I can't stress enough, you know, that when a
person decides to pursue a very important role,
such as a physician or, you know, medical role,
to have compassion. And so for me, I love sharing
personal stories with my students every day about
why I feel it's important to do this work. And
add to that, Darrell is really the main reason
why I decided to stick this as a profession.
So when I met Darrell back in 2006, he told me,
first and foremost, he said, look, Ebony, I'm
broke. I don't have any money. I am a student
who's pursuing medicine. My goal is to be a doctor
one day. First and foremost, I'm like, I'm not
trying to date him for money, you know, at the
time I wasn't rich. I've never been rich, but
I had my own money, had my own occupation, you
know, was a early career professional working
in the state of Michigan at that time. But all
that to say is that I was really intrigued by
his story and I really didn't understand all
that it took to to pursue not only get into a
medical school but you know all the prerequisites
that are required to do so right and for you
know as i'm learning more and more about Darryl
and his background and the fact that he was a
career changer he was a army veteran and you
know all these things i'm like you know to me
i just thought a plus b equals c i thought it
was a linear path i realized it's not always
linear and I do have respect for those students
who do have the means to just go straight through,
you know, from undergraduate straight into medical
school. However, comma, my deeper interest. are
in those who have lived experience, much like
Darrell's, or if not like Darrell's, they have
their own story to tell, where they took a gap
year, maybe took several gap years, were career
changers, decided to start a family first, decided
to backpack first, you know, see the world, you
know, came to that epiphany. you know, that medicine
is where they belong. Those are the students
that I gravitate toward the most and I really
want to support those who feel like they don't
have a chance in this space. And so that's why
I do what I do, honestly. And as Daryl said,
you know, life is about learning. And no, it
doesn't always require that formal education.
But for me personally, I'm a nerd. I love to
learn. My dad left that legacy. He said no one
could take away your education sugar sugar. So,
you know, I don't think he thought I would go
this far with degrees, but I will say right before
I lost him, I had just earned my first master's
degree. And when Daryl and my dad at dinner for
the first time, they started running from my
trajectory. You remember that dinner table first
time around, you know, a girl came to Detroit
to see what it was about, and actually he was
interested in the University of Michigan's MD
-PhD program, but of course... he and I had talked
long enough, like a couple months or so, and
I said, well, I want to meet my parents. And
there was Dad and Daryl talking about, oh, I
can see her going for that PhD, and I can see
her maybe doing something political. And I'm
saying, no, you can't. I'm just good with my
masters in counseling. I'm going to get my license
to practice as a counselor and go into private
practice and to story. Well, Was it? Yeah. Right.
And so when I lost him lost my dad that is a
couple months later. I obviously was in a very
dark space had never lost anybody that close
to me before. Yeah, I lost my grandma, but I
was like 10. But you know, after that, I had
never lost anybody as close as my dad. And my
dad and I were really close. I was a daddy's
girl. And I admired the work that he did in public
health and social work, you know, health policy,
you know, all those things that I never thought
I could do, you know, because he spoke out unapologetically
about living with HIV and being a gay man and,
you know, the rights of women, you know, so he
really was all about making equity, fair for
everybody across the table, meaning that there
wasn't one particular area that he targeted.
He wanted to help all people in his short life.
But because he had these intersections of identity,
it made sense for him to be an advocate as well
as an activist with HIV and LGBTQ plus rights
and so on and so forth. And so I could never
fill his shoes. But I said, you know what, maybe
just maybe a little bit of information I got
from him. Um, cause I was pretty young when he
died. I was only 28. I said, you know, I want
to continue that legacy in some way. So here
I am, you know, researching still stand on top
of the latest information when it comes to HIV.
Um, you know, you name it, you know, it's like,
I just want to put my, my finger on a pulse on
things that relate to helping patients and hoping.
the community as a whole. So I'm actually going
to jump around a little bit. My questions I had
prepared for you guys, because I feel like this
fits right into it and talking about your guys'
resilience. You guys have done so much to get
through so many degrees and just advocate for
so many people. This takes a ton of resilience.
And can you kind of talk about how that's navigated
in your professional roles? How have you guys
gone about this? Oh, man. You know, I learned
at a very early age that life is not a linear
path. There's lots of shades of gray. There's
lots of ups and downs. You know, like, for example,
when I decided to go back for my undergrad studies,
starting in 2005, I was visually impaired. There
was, you know, the courses you read in my bio,
there was a point in time where I was unhoused.
And, you know, my grandmother, you know always
told me in life you just got two choices you
can stand and fight or you can fold like cardboard
and so my default has always been to stand and
fight if there's you know things that you want
in life you just have to push for them so i'll
share with you and your listeners i don't think
uh i would even share it with you megan and all
the time we've worked together so i actually
was a u .s medical student at one point I was
at a DO school in San Antonio and my first term
I had to take a leave of absence because I had
to have a cornea transplant so going back to
the visual impairment and back to school was
doing well and I ran into GI Anatomy and failed
that portion of the final exam so I was told
to repeat the year, repeat of the year, got to
GI Anatomy final again and failed and they said
okay Darryl we're gonna dismiss you and so you
know me and Ebony you know talked about it you
know she said okay Darryl cry you know whatever
you got to do right now get that out of you but
then tomorrow we got to make a decision about
what to do and so you know I cried and then I
said you know what I'm gonna go ahead and take
a withdrawal instead of letting them dismiss
me and immediately enrolled in Oceana and now
I'm doing fine um but I say that to say that
if you want something in life, you have to push
for it. You have to grind and you got to struggle.
It's not going to be easy. And I think that's
more important now, given what we're facing politically.
You know, like so the last institution I taught
at a student told on I was teaching, I was teaching.
What was that course? Social determinants of
health in the MPH. And there was a student in
his performance evaluation. He said, you know,
Dr. Trailer was fine. But he had too much emphasis
on women and LGBT health, not enough on white
males. So he ended up reporting me to the U .S.
Department of Education. A few weeks after that,
the school got a letter, you know, saying we're
going to be investigating the MPH and we're going
to be investigating Dr. Traylor. We want all
of his emails. That's the kind of thing that
could have scared me. Yeah. And as you know,
because, you know, we work together on our gender
studies project, you know, for the last almost
year. you know, that kind of pressure could scare
somebody. But you have to have resilience and
you have to be fearless in the face of that kind
of stuff to keep doing the work you have to do.
And I'm not going to sit here and tell you that
I'm not scared of things like that. I'm not going
to sit here and tell you that, you know, starting
over in medical school was easy. But these are
the things that I'm passionate about. And this
is what I'm just going to continue to do. And,
you know, Thank God, you know, I've got a wonderful
wife who was helping to push me forward. But,
you know, you just have to stand tough and stand
on your belief. Yep. Well said, Daryl. Gosh,
you always have the best answers. I don't know
how to follow up behind that. But, you know,
really simply, I feel that resilience is grounded
in community and purpose, right? For me, I've
always questioned. What is my purpose in life?
What am I meant to do in life? Who am I? What
am I? You know, it always comes with a little
bit of, you know, self -defeating, if you will,
self -defeating words. So, you know, negative
self -talk, if it makes sense. However, part
of that is constantly asking my question, why?
Right. And I remember back in the day when I
was in Detroit and I'd be driving into work and
I used to listen to WJLB FM 98, one of our R
&B stations and they'd have to talk radio in
the morning and they always had the comedians
on and so one of the comedians I credit for this,
his name is Foolish, still around, still funny
as I don't know what, but he would say in the
morning, God gave you another day, what are you
going to do with it? And I still stick with that,
like even on those hardest days of life when
you just don't want to face it. You just want
to stay in bed. You think about a I'm awake,
you know, it's sometimes it's okay to do nothing.
You know, I'm really trying to lean into that
as I get older, you know, I'm reaching that middle
age. And I'm like, you do have to practice that
pause and practice taking a break and you don't
have to constantly be on 10 doing everything
for everybody. But it's still a work in progress,
right? and leaning into your community, you know,
leaning into your social systems to get things
done. But going back to the whole feeling of
community, one of the things I'll never forget
was when I was completing my first dissertation,
and it was on women living and aging with HIV
in an urban area. And I have some really good
friends who were colleagues of my dad. that I
reached out to. And they run a support group
with these women who, you know, again, are living
their lives, living their best lives, if you
will. Not easy, but, you know, they are in their
50s and 60s and 70s. And I needed, you know,
participants to complete my research. And so
I didn't want to be one of those helicopter research
type people. I mean, I'm truly embedded. I'm
here for the cause. And I think that's why my
friends know this. And so they invited me to
one of their support groups. I've flown from
Phoenix to Detroit. And one of the things that
they did first, these ladies, was hug me, embrace
me, and said, we are your mothers. That's community.
And just looking at them and hearing their stories
of how they have had to overcome the challenges
of stigma. overcome the challenges of resources,
you know, having to continue going about your
day -to -day lives, I mean, dating, you know,
I even met women who were in the process of getting
married or were newlyweds, and, you know, it
wasn't all peachy keen, no, you know what I mean?
Because as far as they shared on how they contracted
HIV were very sad, you know, many times it had
to do with betrayal or you know again non -disclosure
from their partner you know someone that they
may have been committed to for a very long time
for years and then you know that happened and
so um all that to say is that i think that resilience
is is something that you just no longer you just
you're not adapting but you're adapting with
the intention right you know you're you know
you're not just going along you know going on
a long life like hey you know such is life you
are intentional about bouncing back about making
changes about pivoting when you have to and when
it comes to this profession as we know medical
you know anything dealing with medicine from
medical school to the profession itself involves
bias and burnout constantly and so you have to
continue to reaffirm you know why are you in
it why do you do the work that you do you know
You really do have to take a moment to sue yourself.
And unfortunately, some people are in it for
the wrong reasons. We know that. But I also know
how hard it is to get there, how hard it is to
maintain and sustain on a day -to -day basis.
It's not just about the money. When, you know,
I think resilience in the medical profession,
you know, I can't help but to think about the
stories I hear every day from my colleagues and,
you know, from the students who graduated from
our mentees, you know, who are either in residency
now or, you know, about to become from attendings.
It's a lot of work. And so just staying above.
you know, above just the level of average. You
know what I mean? When they call that high bar
is something we have to consider every day. Thank
you. Ofno, I will edit this part out. I'm going
to jump down. this is formed like very different
than I thought it was going to be. So I'm only
going to ask two more questions, but I think
we need to get together and do one particularly
on gender inequity. I think this one's kind of
more about your guys's like journey and how you've
gotten through and how you've been lifelong advocates.
So if that's cool with you guys. Yeah. Okay.
So can you guys tell me how have you seen mentorship
and representation kind of influence your guys's
approach to you both teach, you both support
many health professionals. How have you guys
seen this play a role? So for me, and this is
something that Ebony is going to be hearing for
the first time. So I didn't have a lot of mentors
academically. And so when me and Ebony first
met, we used to exchange writings, you know,
through email. And so she sent me a copy of her
first master's thesis. And at that time, I'd
just gone back to undergrad and I was taking
an English class, a world literature class, actually,
and I wasn't doing terribly well because I wasn't
a good writer. And so to teach myself how to
write, I actually studied Ebony's dissertation.
And then later she sent me some writings of her
father. And he was a very elegant writer in his
own right. And so I studied their writing. And
so the two of them don't know that they were
mentors to me in doing that. And as I went through
my undergrad studies, at Arizona State University
at that time, the folks who ran the pre -med
office they wouldn't even much talk to you if
you wouldn't come in there with a 3 .8 GPA and
you know, we're the perfect student, right? You
probably know some of what that is like. And
then of course in that ASU, a lot of faculty
wouldn't mentor you if you weren't that perfect
student on paper. So I really struggled with
finding mentors through my undergrad career.
So one of the things that I said when I started,
you know my master's degree was that if I was
ever in a position to mentor other people I wouldn't
turn them down because of a GPA or whatever you
know it's like if somebody's coming to me with
a need then I have a responsibility to help with
that with that need and that's what I've done
but I think probably for me the most transformative
experience for in the terms of mentorship actually
happened during COVID so me and Ebony We're working
with one of our longtime mentors and friends,
Dr. Melba Thompson Robinson. And through her,
we got to meet Carolee Dodge Francis, Dr. Carolee
Dodge Francis. For me, this was the first time
I had ever worked on a totally woman led research
study, right? And I was the only guy on the team,
all female, all women. And that was very powerful
because I got to see the importance of mentorship
for women in STEM, because there are so many
women who want to get into STEM, but again, can't
find adequate mentors. They can't find mentors
who will treat them fairly. One of the things
that Dr. Thompson Robinson and Dr. Francis insisted
upon was that everybody on a research team had
the opportunity to have first authorship on at
least one research product. And that is incredibly
important. uh, in the world of STEM, particularly
for those who are maybe going on for PhDs or
research, uh, uh, careers themselves. And so
I've sort of adopted that, you know, myself.
Um, first hand, I have been through your and
your mentorship. I, like you were speaking these
things and I'm like, I already know this about
you. Obviously you are that mentor now to me.
It's been so cool. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, and you
know if God lets me live long enough You know
I want to see you Take what you've learned from
me and ebony and pay that for cuz that that's
how we get ourselves out of this. Yeah Just to
add to it, you know for me it's guidance and
affirmation of course It's almost like kinship
sometimes right And I say this because, as Daryl
said, Dr. Thompson Robinson and Dr. Dodge Francis
and myself had just written a chapter for a book
that talked about academic aunties, or academic
aunties, depending on how you say it. I call
it auntie status. But also academic uncles and
whatnot. But the whole point of that is being
able to pull someone out of those depths of feeling
like they don't belong right those who feel unseen
or unheard and giving them their voice giving
them the attention guiding them on that path
you know not just academically right and obviously
professionally but also pouring into them giving
them the self -esteem you know, to feel like
they are worth something and that they truly
belong in these spaces. And I say it all the
time, I say it at work, I say it anytime somebody
wants to have this discussion about mentorship
and equity and whatnot. I say representation
matters. And to me, in order to be represented,
you can't be afraid to be in those spaces, right?
So again, be unapologetic when you are sitting
at the table. And if you're not able to get a
seat at the table, you just knock on that door,
bam it down, whatever you got to do to get in
there or even create your own table. And people
eventually want to sit where you are. So to me,
I think that When we talk about this in the context
of medicine, again, my goal was not just an educator,
you know, I also feel like it's important to
be a faculty advisor, you know, or mentor somebody
that students feel safe coming to, not just to
talk about their struggles with an exam, but
to talk about what life, you know, is all about
and how they see themselves in the future. And
if they can't see it, my goal is to, again, gently
guide them on that path, redirect, and have them
be thinking again about why is it that I'm pursuing
this? Through the years, I've had plenty of students,
some who unfortunately didn't make it, whatever
reason they were dismissed or were told they
couldn't return or they took a withdrawal. And
I still stay in touch with any of those students.
And I'm like, okay, maybe medicine wasn't your
calling, right? You know, I would have stuck
with you and fought with you all the way through.
However, pivoting is okay sometimes too, right?
And so writing those letters of recommendation,
you know, being someone that they can come to
with, you know, hey, do you have information
about scholarships? Like, you know, somebody
that you feel you can approach. when it comes
to learning and growing in your own life is what
I value as a mentor and what I value as a mentee.
So that's my two cents. Yeah. So I think to hop
right off of where Ebony was leading us, can
you guys give just like, if you had one solid
piece of advice for students or early professionals,
especially women and different marginalized voices
who aspire to lead with this purpose and create
meaningful change with the medicine, what would
you have to say to them? You know, I would say
again, you know, the path isn't always straight,
but if you have the strength for the fight, And
if you stand 10 toes down on that, because that's
the biggest thing is whatever you want in life,
I don't care how big or how small it is, you
have to stand 10 toes down on your purpose, period,
point blank. If you do that, you will reach the
goal. Understand that you'll get knocked down.
But one of the things that I've learned in life
is that there's learning and value in every experience
we go through. good or bad provided that you're
willing to learn from that experience and apply
the lessons and if you do that you'll absolutely
reach your goals. That's solid and then for me
I'll just say lead with authenticity and courage
you know don't wait for permission to take up
space you know advocate for equity don't be afraid
I know that these are hard times but hey My thing
is, until somebody literally wants to silence
me, put some tape over my mouth and tell me to
shut up, I'm not shutting up. I keep doing what
I do. Do it real. Make my parents proud. Make
my ancestors proud. And also, find your community.
Find your people, is what I say. Nurture your
voice. And just remember, the impact doesn't
always start with a title. Right. You know, I
don't relish the fact that I'm a double doctor,
you know, to my friends, my family, you know,
even to some of my students on first name basis.
So it's not all about the titles of the degrees,
you know, you know, you really should be leading
with, you know, a level of conviction and consistency.
Right. And so. That's the advice I give. Don't
let things go to your head always. You know what
I mean? Stay humble. You know what Kendra Lamar
say? So that's my takeaway for that. I love it.
Thank you guys so much. This has been a great
talk and we're going to have to have so many
more episodes to talk about all of your work
in real life. It's been awesome. So that's a
wrap on this episode of Our Voice is Our Future.
We hope today's conversation inspired you, challenged
you, and remind you of the power of raising your
voice. The fight for equity doesn't stop here.
Join us in the movement. Subscribe wherever you
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share it with someone who needs to hear it. Until
next time, stay bold, stay vocal, and keep the
conversation going. This is Our Voice is Our
Future.