WEBVTT 00:00:12.899 --> 00:00:15.199 Welcome to Our Voices Our Future, the podcast 00:00:15.199 --> 00:00:17.539 where we amplify the voices driving change and 00:00:17.539 --> 00:00:20.160 equity within medicine and beyond. Brought to 00:00:20.160 --> 00:00:22.140 you by the Gender Equity Task Force, a committee 00:00:22.140 --> 00:00:24.420 of the American Medical Women's Association. 00:00:24.980 --> 00:00:26.699 We're here to challenge norms, break barriers, 00:00:26.859 --> 00:00:29.379 and ignite conversations that matter. I'm Megan 00:00:29.379 --> 00:00:31.780 Etsy, and in each episode, we'll bring you candid 00:00:31.780 --> 00:00:34.479 discussions with leaders, changemakers, and advocates 00:00:34.479 --> 00:00:37.280 working to create a more inclusive and just world. 00:00:37.880 --> 00:00:40.399 No more silence, no more waiting. You're listening 00:00:40.399 --> 00:00:43.170 to Our Voices Our Future. Today we're welcoming 00:00:43.170 --> 00:00:47.570 Dr. Grace Gilbert. Dr. Gilbert is a PGY3 orthopedic 00:00:47.570 --> 00:00:50.549 resident in the Philadelphia area. She began 00:00:50.549 --> 00:00:52.649 her career as an operating room nurse before 00:00:52.649 --> 00:00:55.369 earning her MD from St. George University in 00:00:55.369 --> 00:00:59.310 2022. Dr. Gilbert is passionate about orthopedic 00:00:59.310 --> 00:01:01.909 education, health policy, and advocacy work. 00:01:02.380 --> 00:01:04.719 She also shares widely through her growing social 00:01:04.719 --> 00:01:06.859 media presence, which is linked in the description 00:01:06.859 --> 00:01:09.980 below, where she blends medicine, storytelling, 00:01:10.219 --> 00:01:12.519 and accessible public health education. Thanks 00:01:12.519 --> 00:01:14.599 for being here, Dr. Gilbert. Well, thank you 00:01:14.599 --> 00:01:17.180 for having me. This is awesome. Yeah. So can 00:01:17.180 --> 00:01:18.780 you just start by sharing a little bit about 00:01:18.780 --> 00:01:20.680 your journey into medicine and what drew you 00:01:20.680 --> 00:01:23.599 into your specialty? Yeah. So I'm, you know, 00:01:23.680 --> 00:01:25.620 what we would call a non -traditional student 00:01:25.620 --> 00:01:27.840 in that I didn't... Really grow up wanting to 00:01:27.840 --> 00:01:30.079 be a doctor or even interested in health care 00:01:30.079 --> 00:01:33.400 at all a lot of my childhood. I wanted to be 00:01:33.400 --> 00:01:36.090 a teacher and a lot of people here and there 00:01:36.090 --> 00:01:37.730 would be like, oh, you should be a nurse, blah, 00:01:37.810 --> 00:01:39.930 blah, blah. And I'd always be like, ugh, that's 00:01:39.930 --> 00:01:43.170 gross. I could never do that. So when I went 00:01:43.170 --> 00:01:45.890 to college, I was pretty young. But I started 00:01:45.890 --> 00:01:48.870 out as a math major. And I wanted to be an algebra 00:01:48.870 --> 00:01:51.609 teacher. That was my life goal, which should 00:01:51.609 --> 00:01:54.189 be awesome. Turns out, I'm horrible at calculus. 00:01:54.250 --> 00:01:59.379 So that was very quickly. changed and I kind 00:01:59.379 --> 00:02:01.739 of ended up in nursing because I wanted a stable 00:02:01.739 --> 00:02:04.560 career and I wanted to help people. And by that 00:02:04.560 --> 00:02:06.540 point, I had started being a caregiver for my 00:02:06.540 --> 00:02:08.620 grandmother. So I knew that it wasn't so gross 00:02:08.620 --> 00:02:10.819 and that I could handle it. So I went to nursing 00:02:10.819 --> 00:02:15.379 school and kind of junior year of nursing school. 00:02:16.560 --> 00:02:18.740 You know, I had fallen in love with nursing school 00:02:18.740 --> 00:02:21.259 and I had loved the science behind it and all 00:02:21.259 --> 00:02:24.180 these things. But I kept on asking questions 00:02:24.180 --> 00:02:26.740 and being told, you don't need to know that. 00:02:26.800 --> 00:02:32.639 Oh, yeah. And I was like, but I want to know. 00:02:32.759 --> 00:02:33.960 And they're like, no, that's not going to be 00:02:33.960 --> 00:02:36.340 on the exam. That's a doctor's job. And they 00:02:36.340 --> 00:02:38.419 were right, right? It was not going to be at 00:02:38.419 --> 00:02:40.219 all on the exam. They were just trying to be 00:02:40.219 --> 00:02:41.680 like, listen, you don't need to know that. But 00:02:41.680 --> 00:02:44.680 I was like, but I'm curious. And so maybe the 00:02:44.680 --> 00:02:46.780 4 ,000th time that happened, I was like, maybe 00:02:46.780 --> 00:02:50.620 I want to be a doctor. And so senior year, I 00:02:50.620 --> 00:02:53.879 started taking all these pre -med rec. classes, 00:02:53.879 --> 00:02:55.919 and then I went and became an operating room 00:02:55.919 --> 00:02:58.620 nurse, studied for the MCAT, worked for two years, 00:02:58.639 --> 00:03:01.580 and then went to medical school. So that's the 00:03:01.580 --> 00:03:04.620 short and the long version of how I ended up 00:03:04.620 --> 00:03:07.439 in medicine. While I was in the operating room 00:03:07.439 --> 00:03:09.520 as a nurse, I fell in love with orthopedics. 00:03:09.539 --> 00:03:13.020 And I was like, well, surely by the time I finish 00:03:13.020 --> 00:03:14.840 medical school, I'll have talked myself out of 00:03:14.840 --> 00:03:17.740 that crazy idea. But I didn't. And so here we 00:03:17.740 --> 00:03:22.370 are. Yeah. So That's a pretty quick transition. 00:03:22.629 --> 00:03:25.069 I think I didn't recognize that it was just like 00:03:25.069 --> 00:03:26.550 two years in nursing and then you were right 00:03:26.550 --> 00:03:29.169 back to school. How did that feel kind of going 00:03:29.169 --> 00:03:31.629 like you're working, making money, and then you 00:03:31.629 --> 00:03:33.909 go back to school, not making any money anymore. 00:03:34.050 --> 00:03:37.969 How was that transition back? It was good, I 00:03:37.969 --> 00:03:41.180 think. You know, I didn't have that. traditional 00:03:41.180 --> 00:03:43.360 college experience, because I was commuted from 00:03:43.360 --> 00:03:45.680 home and I grew up in a really strict kind of 00:03:45.680 --> 00:03:49.020 background. And so actually going to medical 00:03:49.020 --> 00:03:51.000 school and going to medical school in a different 00:03:51.000 --> 00:03:54.099 country was really like the college experience 00:03:54.099 --> 00:03:56.819 for me. It was getting away in a lot of ways. 00:03:56.840 --> 00:03:59.199 And I think for me, a lot of that was very exciting. 00:03:59.860 --> 00:04:03.539 The loss of salary was really tragic, though, 00:04:03.620 --> 00:04:06.340 like not having a paycheck, not being able to 00:04:06.340 --> 00:04:10.400 work overtime. struggling with money. That was 00:04:10.400 --> 00:04:12.060 hard. That's still hard because I still make 00:04:12.060 --> 00:04:14.520 less money now as a doctor than I did as a nurse. 00:04:16.779 --> 00:04:20.910 So that was an adjustment for sure. I like school. 00:04:21.069 --> 00:04:22.509 I know I'm one of those weird nerds who like 00:04:22.509 --> 00:04:25.750 school. So it wasn't so hard to go back. And 00:04:25.750 --> 00:04:29.430 I was able to, like during COVID and kind of 00:04:29.430 --> 00:04:30.910 my fourth year of medical school, I was able 00:04:30.910 --> 00:04:32.790 to do some travel nursing, which was really fun. 00:04:32.790 --> 00:04:35.230 I got to kind of go back and remind myself about 00:04:35.230 --> 00:04:37.910 all my skills and make some money. And I really 00:04:37.910 --> 00:04:41.050 enjoyed that. That's awesome. So can you kind 00:04:41.050 --> 00:04:43.170 of tell us how your experience in residency has 00:04:43.170 --> 00:04:45.550 been so far, both of the rewarding parts and 00:04:45.550 --> 00:04:48.579 the challenging parts equally? yeah so i think 00:04:48.579 --> 00:04:50.759 you know when i talk to medical students about 00:04:50.759 --> 00:04:56.199 residency um there are a lot of amazing things 00:04:56.199 --> 00:04:58.540 about residency but it really is a means to an 00:04:58.540 --> 00:05:02.279 end for most people you know you residency is 00:05:02.279 --> 00:05:04.800 not a good time no matter where you go no matter 00:05:04.800 --> 00:05:08.529 what you're doing it is really freaking hard. 00:05:09.709 --> 00:05:11.949 And I did a prelim year, which I did one year 00:05:11.949 --> 00:05:14.269 of general surgery in the Midwest in Minnesota. 00:05:14.629 --> 00:05:18.290 And then I did a second intern year in orthopedics 00:05:18.290 --> 00:05:20.889 when I made my transition. And I'm now, you know, 00:05:20.910 --> 00:05:23.689 three years into orthopedics. So kind of seeing 00:05:23.689 --> 00:05:26.069 and being in two very different programs as well, 00:05:26.069 --> 00:05:29.350 you can really see that. The most amazing parts 00:05:29.350 --> 00:05:31.410 of it is like not to be really cheesy, but is 00:05:31.410 --> 00:05:33.649 the patients like when you have a patient you 00:05:33.649 --> 00:05:36.009 like cry with or talk to or can make a change 00:05:36.009 --> 00:05:39.680 in. There's nothing like that. And working with 00:05:39.680 --> 00:05:41.480 your colleagues, especially because I do love 00:05:41.480 --> 00:05:43.079 teaching, you know, like I started wanting to 00:05:43.079 --> 00:05:45.220 be an algebra teacher and now I'm teaching like 00:05:45.220 --> 00:05:48.399 our interns this year and helping them walk through 00:05:48.399 --> 00:05:50.540 the process, I think for me is most rewarding 00:05:50.540 --> 00:05:52.360 when I teach them something or when they're having 00:05:52.360 --> 00:05:55.199 a bad day and I'm able to like talk about my 00:05:55.199 --> 00:05:57.920 experiences and support them. Like that makes 00:05:57.920 --> 00:05:59.759 it all worth it to me, like talking to my patients 00:05:59.759 --> 00:06:02.500 and through it all. Like everything about residency 00:06:02.500 --> 00:06:06.579 that's good is people based. Whether it's my 00:06:06.579 --> 00:06:10.779 colleagues or my students or my patients. Everything 00:06:10.779 --> 00:06:14.839 about residency that's hard and awful is the 00:06:14.839 --> 00:06:18.639 healthcare system's difficulties, the hours, 00:06:19.279 --> 00:06:23.959 the salary, and medical hierarchy. In a surgical 00:06:23.959 --> 00:06:26.620 specialty, there's a lot of that. There's a lot 00:06:26.620 --> 00:06:31.730 of extra hoops and things to jump through. Also 00:06:31.730 --> 00:06:33.769 being on the East Coast, I kind of got I'm from 00:06:33.769 --> 00:06:35.730 the East Coast, but when I was in Minnesota, 00:06:36.509 --> 00:06:38.709 I got really spoiled. People are really nice. 00:06:38.889 --> 00:06:41.470 Yeah. And that's not what I'm used to. But I 00:06:41.470 --> 00:06:43.709 got used to it real quick. And then I came back 00:06:43.709 --> 00:06:45.910 to the East Coast and I was like, this is my 00:06:45.910 --> 00:06:48.930 people. But also, man, we're mean. We're not 00:06:48.930 --> 00:06:51.589 nice. Even when we're being nice, we're very 00:06:51.589 --> 00:06:54.189 gruff and like hard. And I'm a very sensitive 00:06:54.189 --> 00:06:57.769 soul. So that, you know, that's always hard as 00:06:57.769 --> 00:07:00.920 well. Yeah, so talking about these hoops and 00:07:00.920 --> 00:07:03.779 the hierarchy and all the things that come with 00:07:03.779 --> 00:07:05.839 residency, can you kind of tell us how this has 00:07:05.839 --> 00:07:08.660 impacted your mental health and were there any 00:07:08.660 --> 00:07:11.899 like particular stressors or turning points in 00:07:11.899 --> 00:07:14.100 this stage of your life that has stood out to 00:07:14.100 --> 00:07:17.220 you so far? Yeah, so mental health has always 00:07:17.220 --> 00:07:22.990 been a part of my life and a battle. I've suffered 00:07:22.990 --> 00:07:25.589 from anxiety and depression since I was like 00:07:25.589 --> 00:07:27.730 six years old. I can remember my first panic 00:07:27.730 --> 00:07:30.930 attack at six years old, even though me and my 00:07:30.930 --> 00:07:34.230 family had no idea what that was. And it really 00:07:34.230 --> 00:07:37.430 wasn't until medical school when I was on the 00:07:37.430 --> 00:07:40.050 island at St. George when I got therapy for the 00:07:40.050 --> 00:07:42.449 first time. And then during my clinical years, 00:07:42.569 --> 00:07:45.730 when I got on Lexapro or SSRI, anti -anxiety, 00:07:45.850 --> 00:07:47.470 antidepressant medicine for the first time, which 00:07:47.470 --> 00:07:49.709 both of those things absolutely changed my life. 00:07:50.089 --> 00:07:52.250 Like literally a week into medication, I was 00:07:52.250 --> 00:07:53.829 like, oh, I should have been on this at six years 00:07:53.829 --> 00:07:58.509 old. This makes a lot of sense. I also had ADHD, 00:07:58.829 --> 00:08:01.069 so I'm a little neuro -spicy or neurodivergent 00:08:01.069 --> 00:08:04.110 there. And I'm on Ritalin. I like to talk about 00:08:04.110 --> 00:08:06.569 my medications a lot because I'm really pro treating 00:08:06.569 --> 00:08:11.550 your symptoms and trying new things. So all of 00:08:11.550 --> 00:08:13.550 those things, although when I started residency, 00:08:13.569 --> 00:08:16.069 I was at a pretty good place in my mental health 00:08:16.069 --> 00:08:18.410 because I had found therapy and I had found medications 00:08:18.410 --> 00:08:21.410 through medical school. Thank goodness. It's 00:08:21.410 --> 00:08:24.829 still been hard. My first residency was hard. 00:08:25.199 --> 00:08:28.779 for different reasons than my second. I think 00:08:28.779 --> 00:08:30.500 my mental health has struggled a lot more in 00:08:30.500 --> 00:08:32.480 my second for some of the reasons that I mentioned. 00:08:33.840 --> 00:08:37.480 I think when I did general surgery, it matched 00:08:37.480 --> 00:08:40.320 a lot of my skill set a little bit better, which 00:08:40.320 --> 00:08:44.840 general surgery is a lot more general, a lot 00:08:44.840 --> 00:08:49.870 more whole, you know. holistic and whole body 00:08:49.870 --> 00:08:53.149 and big picture and you know those kind of things 00:08:53.149 --> 00:08:55.409 and orthopedic is very focused and very detail 00:08:55.409 --> 00:08:58.990 oriented and that just goes against my personality 00:08:58.990 --> 00:09:02.350 so i have to work a lot harder to be that person 00:09:02.350 --> 00:09:06.970 and i think i make it a lot more holistic and 00:09:06.970 --> 00:09:09.950 i have a bigger picture i think that's good but 00:09:09.950 --> 00:09:12.710 it I still struggle to push on that other side 00:09:12.710 --> 00:09:14.929 and be exactly who I need to be as that type 00:09:14.929 --> 00:09:20.429 of clinician. And the hours are definitely longer 00:09:20.429 --> 00:09:22.190 and the support is different. It's a lot more 00:09:22.190 --> 00:09:24.950 independence, a lot less teamwork based things. 00:09:25.470 --> 00:09:27.750 And this is all comparable, right? Like you compare 00:09:27.750 --> 00:09:29.669 it to another specialty and maybe my specialty 00:09:29.669 --> 00:09:31.750 or this hospital has way more teamwork and everything. 00:09:32.570 --> 00:09:34.470 But those are just some changes for me that really 00:09:34.470 --> 00:09:38.379 made it hard. You know clashes with people or 00:09:38.379 --> 00:09:41.019 different seniors or whatever those things be 00:09:41.019 --> 00:09:44.340 like I started having a lot of panic attacks. 00:09:46.320 --> 00:09:49.159 In my second intern year and I started orthopedics 00:09:49.159 --> 00:09:52.080 which I hadn't had for years and so that was 00:09:52.080 --> 00:09:56.330 a struggle because I I kind of entered. My second 00:09:56.330 --> 00:09:57.850 intern year being like, Oh, I've already done 00:09:57.850 --> 00:09:59.710 an intern year. The second one will be easy. 00:09:59.789 --> 00:10:01.389 Like I've already learned Epic. I've already 00:10:01.389 --> 00:10:03.309 learned the EMR. Like I'm going to do great. 00:10:03.309 --> 00:10:04.750 Like this is going to be awesome. All I'm going 00:10:04.750 --> 00:10:06.610 to have to worry about is like brushing up on 00:10:06.610 --> 00:10:10.330 my orthopedic knowledge and boy was I wrong in 00:10:10.330 --> 00:10:13.049 every way, shape and form so much harder. My 00:10:13.049 --> 00:10:16.250 mental health took a drastic dip. My anxiety 00:10:16.250 --> 00:10:20.669 became horrific. Um, and I'm kind of slowly climbing 00:10:20.669 --> 00:10:23.330 back up from that. Um, you know, reestablishing 00:10:23.330 --> 00:10:26.169 therapy, reestablishing. and medication and care 00:10:26.169 --> 00:10:28.710 in the new city and all of those things. And 00:10:28.710 --> 00:10:31.070 I think we're on a better side now, but I really, 00:10:31.070 --> 00:10:32.649 really struggled with that first year and I thought 00:10:32.649 --> 00:10:37.389 about quitting a lot. So I know that there's 00:10:37.389 --> 00:10:39.269 medical students and residents who feel the same 00:10:39.269 --> 00:10:43.529 way and people who do. And I think I just want 00:10:43.529 --> 00:10:46.690 everybody to know that you're not alone. Residency 00:10:46.690 --> 00:10:49.830 sucks. It's supposed to suck, unfortunately. 00:10:50.350 --> 00:10:52.710 And it's a means to an end. You do it for the 00:10:52.710 --> 00:10:56.610 people. and for kind of the goal at the end of 00:10:56.610 --> 00:11:00.269 the tunnel. Very fair. So a little more broad 00:11:00.269 --> 00:11:05.129 than talking about you, what would you say more 00:11:05.129 --> 00:11:08.950 unique challenges mental health wise for women 00:11:08.950 --> 00:11:11.389 in medicine that there are compared to their 00:11:11.389 --> 00:11:13.529 male colleagues? I mean, and I think I can fairly 00:11:13.529 --> 00:11:15.250 say, especially in surgery, I think you're in 00:11:15.250 --> 00:11:18.730 a great spot to talk about this. But yeah, what's 00:11:18.730 --> 00:11:21.049 your kind of perspective on that? Yeah, especially 00:11:21.049 --> 00:11:23.049 as an orthopedic. Like I'm lucky we have a couple 00:11:23.049 --> 00:11:26.549 girls in my program, but I often interact with 00:11:26.549 --> 00:11:28.990 other female orthopedic residents who are like, 00:11:29.110 --> 00:11:30.950 oh my God, I don't have any women in my program. 00:11:30.990 --> 00:11:33.009 It must be so nice to have a woman to talk to. 00:11:33.370 --> 00:11:35.710 And it's true. The relationship I have with my 00:11:35.710 --> 00:11:37.870 other female residents and my female attendings 00:11:37.870 --> 00:11:41.190 is drastically different than the men. Like there 00:11:41.190 --> 00:11:44.529 is a different... emotional awareness, emotional 00:11:44.529 --> 00:11:46.230 intelligence, and there are men who are much 00:11:46.230 --> 00:11:49.110 more that way, who I can talk about those things 00:11:49.110 --> 00:11:50.730 with. I don't want to exclude all men from that 00:11:50.730 --> 00:11:53.629 conversation. But there is just a comfort level 00:11:53.629 --> 00:11:56.029 and a different dialogue that happens with most 00:11:56.029 --> 00:11:59.610 women that I'm really lucky to have amazing females 00:11:59.610 --> 00:12:01.830 in my group. And we're all at different levels, 00:12:01.850 --> 00:12:04.529 but we all still connect in like a very similar 00:12:04.529 --> 00:12:09.639 way. So it's hard. It's hard being one of the 00:12:09.639 --> 00:12:12.740 only girls. It's hard being one of the only women. 00:12:12.899 --> 00:12:15.639 It's hard having people make comments about that, 00:12:15.940 --> 00:12:18.279 no matter where you go. It's hard always having 00:12:18.279 --> 00:12:21.600 to clarify that you're not the nurse, which for 00:12:21.600 --> 00:12:24.120 me, I was also a nurse, so no shade to nurses. 00:12:24.320 --> 00:12:26.759 And I still have my nursing degree, so I am still 00:12:26.759 --> 00:12:29.559 a nurse. I still have my license, although I 00:12:29.559 --> 00:12:31.039 don't use it. So when people are like, are you 00:12:31.039 --> 00:12:34.009 the nurse? And I'm like... Well, not your nurse. 00:12:34.110 --> 00:12:36.649 I'm a nurse. I'm the doctor. I'm your doctor. 00:12:36.830 --> 00:12:38.789 And I don't usually explain all that to the patients. 00:12:38.970 --> 00:12:40.809 I usually just like, if someone's asking for 00:12:40.809 --> 00:12:43.190 water, sure, I'm the nurse. If someone's saying 00:12:43.190 --> 00:12:45.690 they want a clarification on their surgery, I 00:12:45.690 --> 00:12:47.809 will clarify that I'm the doctor, you know, just 00:12:47.809 --> 00:12:51.970 kind of situation specific. But we know that 00:12:52.139 --> 00:12:55.659 across the board in medicine. We have higher 00:12:55.659 --> 00:12:58.220 suicide rates, higher depression rates, higher 00:12:58.220 --> 00:13:01.919 rates of alcoholism, and even some more like 00:13:01.919 --> 00:13:04.980 other drug uses. We also know that women out 00:13:04.980 --> 00:13:09.019 proportionally have issues with those things 00:13:09.019 --> 00:13:12.139 and are treated differently, are paid less, et 00:13:12.139 --> 00:13:15.320 cetera, et cetera. Unfortunately, in my first 00:13:15.320 --> 00:13:18.860 residency, although I wasn't close with the people 00:13:18.860 --> 00:13:22.740 I had two colleagues who worked in the hospital 00:13:22.740 --> 00:13:25.299 who attempted suicide, one of them successful 00:13:25.299 --> 00:13:29.100 the first year. And, you know, they were in different 00:13:29.100 --> 00:13:32.500 specialties, but it was close to where you were 00:13:32.500 --> 00:13:34.659 experiencing it. And you saw it and you heard 00:13:34.659 --> 00:13:39.090 about it. And that's hard. Even not being close 00:13:39.090 --> 00:13:41.669 to those people or not being personally affected, 00:13:41.929 --> 00:13:44.429 like professionally, you're just aware of how 00:13:44.429 --> 00:13:46.970 hard this can be, even at a great institution, 00:13:47.269 --> 00:13:51.909 even somewhere that recognizes duty hours. You 00:13:51.909 --> 00:13:54.230 know, when we talk about mental health and wellness 00:13:54.230 --> 00:13:57.110 in residency, it's not because we want to be 00:13:57.110 --> 00:13:58.950 like more butterflies and rainbows. It's because 00:13:58.950 --> 00:14:02.600 people die. this isn't a little deal. This isn't 00:14:02.600 --> 00:14:04.860 people being weak and just wanting to work less. 00:14:05.080 --> 00:14:08.659 People literally die. People say, this is so 00:14:08.659 --> 00:14:12.580 hard. It is incompatible with life. And obviously, 00:14:12.779 --> 00:14:14.379 those things don't happen without some sort of 00:14:14.379 --> 00:14:17.360 mental health issues, but we have to focus on 00:14:17.360 --> 00:14:21.120 those things. to the people out there, like one 00:14:21.120 --> 00:14:23.419 of the things that I've done is I've really fought 00:14:23.419 --> 00:14:26.279 for change in my own program and been able to 00:14:26.279 --> 00:14:28.200 make some changes that are better for our hours 00:14:28.200 --> 00:14:33.019 and for our wellness. And I could have probably 00:14:33.019 --> 00:14:37.960 made less waves by just dealing with the things 00:14:37.960 --> 00:14:41.320 as they were. And when I came in, I decided that 00:14:41.320 --> 00:14:44.279 I wasn't going to do that. I was willing to make 00:14:44.279 --> 00:14:47.000 waves to make things safer and better for people. 00:14:47.379 --> 00:14:49.360 And I'm really happy with that because now I'm 00:14:49.360 --> 00:14:51.559 seeing my younger interns kind of see the benefits 00:14:51.559 --> 00:14:54.259 of that and still struggle and still it's hard. 00:14:54.299 --> 00:14:56.440 And I'm able to say like, I'm glad we changed 00:14:56.440 --> 00:14:59.860 this. I'm glad we changed that. But fight for 00:14:59.860 --> 00:15:01.960 change in your program. Don't sit idly while 00:15:01.960 --> 00:15:04.179 you're struggling. Find people you can trust. 00:15:04.360 --> 00:15:06.639 Find people you can talk to. If there's nobody 00:15:06.639 --> 00:15:08.559 there, you can talk to. Reach out to the internet. 00:15:08.700 --> 00:15:10.419 You know, like TikTok, I found so many great 00:15:10.419 --> 00:15:12.519 friends through TikTok of people and similar 00:15:12.519 --> 00:15:15.720 experiences. I'm meeting you today, which is 00:15:15.720 --> 00:15:20.200 really nice. I think you can always find somebody 00:15:20.200 --> 00:15:21.980 who's going through the same thing you are. You 00:15:21.980 --> 00:15:24.659 don't have to be alone with the age of technology. 00:15:25.100 --> 00:15:26.960 So if your hospital doesn't have somebody you 00:15:26.960 --> 00:15:28.480 connect with, reach out. You can reach out to 00:15:28.480 --> 00:15:29.840 me. You can follow me. If you're struggling, 00:15:29.980 --> 00:15:32.159 reach out to me. I will talk to you. Because 00:15:32.159 --> 00:15:35.440 this is hard. It's not something easy. And doing 00:15:35.440 --> 00:15:39.840 it alone is, I would say, impossible. So I'm 00:15:39.840 --> 00:15:41.539 going to blend the next two questions together, 00:15:41.539 --> 00:15:44.340 because you've kind of hit on them. But I think 00:15:44.340 --> 00:15:48.279 they kind of go together. So have you found kind 00:15:48.279 --> 00:15:51.379 of mentorship, peer support, or any resources 00:15:51.379 --> 00:15:54.620 that have helped you? And you have you felt kind 00:15:54.620 --> 00:15:57.279 of the culture of medicine evolve any to support 00:15:57.279 --> 00:16:01.840 residents? Or where do you still see like those 00:16:01.840 --> 00:16:05.059 bigger gaps that exist? Yeah, I think it's it's 00:16:05.059 --> 00:16:07.379 a process. I think especially orthopedics is 00:16:07.379 --> 00:16:10.559 a little behind on all of that. And I think they 00:16:10.559 --> 00:16:12.980 would tell you that too. You know, that's I think 00:16:12.980 --> 00:16:16.809 it is Been such a isolated part of medicine for 00:16:16.809 --> 00:16:19.590 so long, and it is the least diverse part of 00:16:19.590 --> 00:16:24.309 medicine in so many, so many ways. And so the 00:16:24.309 --> 00:16:26.330 patterns tend to perpetuate for a little bit 00:16:26.330 --> 00:16:29.029 longer. And some of this diversity breaking in, 00:16:29.029 --> 00:16:32.269 even having women or people of color or people 00:16:32.269 --> 00:16:35.190 whose physically aren't third generation orthopedic 00:16:35.190 --> 00:16:37.330 surgeons come in, kind of shake things up a little 00:16:37.330 --> 00:16:43.809 bit. And so I think that we see. A lot of that, 00:16:43.809 --> 00:16:46.730 but through it, I've yes, I found mentors. They 00:16:46.730 --> 00:16:50.509 have amazing female attendings who really invest 00:16:50.509 --> 00:16:53.850 in me and the other girls. And that's really 00:16:53.850 --> 00:16:56.529 special. You know, I think that's what part of 00:16:56.529 --> 00:16:59.250 the important reason diversity is important. 00:16:59.370 --> 00:17:02.470 Like, yes, the male attendings invest in us, 00:17:02.470 --> 00:17:06.009 but it's not it's not the same. And not that 00:17:06.009 --> 00:17:08.839 they couldn't, but they just don't know. How 00:17:08.839 --> 00:17:10.819 to invest us in us in the same way that those 00:17:10.819 --> 00:17:12.460 female attendings who have been to the exact 00:17:12.460 --> 00:17:16.079 same experiences of us do and I have an amazing 00:17:16.079 --> 00:17:19.740 female attending who has given us books on confidence 00:17:19.740 --> 00:17:22.119 and has sat down and talked to us about how to 00:17:22.119 --> 00:17:25.599 handle the complex situations and not just teaching 00:17:25.599 --> 00:17:28.619 us orthopedics but teaching us how to navigate 00:17:28.619 --> 00:17:32.920 medicine as a woman and the extra jumps that 00:17:32.920 --> 00:17:36.680 that takes and being very intentional with that. 00:17:36.920 --> 00:17:40.299 And I think that's something that women really 00:17:40.299 --> 00:17:43.240 strive at is we're very intentional. We're very 00:17:43.240 --> 00:17:46.720 good at planning and being intentional with fixing 00:17:46.720 --> 00:17:49.279 problems and helping in situations and helping 00:17:49.279 --> 00:17:53.119 people. And that's what I've noticed about the 00:17:53.119 --> 00:17:56.180 people who really invested in me. And my program 00:17:56.180 --> 00:17:59.079 director, who is not a female, has also really 00:17:59.079 --> 00:18:02.549 spent the time to... Talk to me about my mental 00:18:02.549 --> 00:18:05.250 health and I think at one point I was struggling 00:18:05.250 --> 00:18:08.009 and I mentioned my ADHD with to him just kind 00:18:08.009 --> 00:18:11.049 of like casually and He followed up on that and 00:18:11.049 --> 00:18:12.869 he's like I want you to tell me about your age 00:18:12.869 --> 00:18:14.670 What does it make it harder to do? What does 00:18:14.670 --> 00:18:17.390 it make it easier to do? Like show me and he 00:18:17.390 --> 00:18:20.289 even was willing to do like the ADHD self -assessment 00:18:20.289 --> 00:18:24.289 like myself And I think all of those things are 00:18:24.289 --> 00:18:28.720 really special like If you care about me, if 00:18:28.720 --> 00:18:31.420 you invest enough about me to learn about things 00:18:31.420 --> 00:18:34.779 that you don't know about to teach me, like that's 00:18:34.779 --> 00:18:37.200 exceptional. That's wonderful. And those things 00:18:37.200 --> 00:18:40.619 motivate you at your core to work harder and 00:18:40.619 --> 00:18:43.200 be better. If someone's willing to invest in 00:18:43.200 --> 00:18:45.900 you, you want to invest back into them. Does 00:18:45.900 --> 00:18:47.599 that kind of answer the question that I go off 00:18:47.599 --> 00:18:50.720 to? of tangents. No, I think it was great. I 00:18:50.720 --> 00:18:53.339 think it was great. So kind of like the conversation 00:18:53.339 --> 00:18:55.079 we're having right now, like what role do you 00:18:55.079 --> 00:18:57.339 think these open conversations about mental health 00:18:57.339 --> 00:19:01.799 play kind of in reducing the stigma in the medical 00:19:01.799 --> 00:19:04.420 practice and training? I think it's essential. 00:19:07.200 --> 00:19:13.000 Every important conversation I have had with 00:19:13.000 --> 00:19:15.680 those mentors is because I opened up about struggling. 00:19:16.419 --> 00:19:19.079 It's because I opened up about my mental health. 00:19:19.460 --> 00:19:22.500 Because they can't help if they don't know what's 00:19:22.500 --> 00:19:26.980 going on. And a lot of people are uncomfortable 00:19:26.980 --> 00:19:29.099 going, you know, it seems like you're struggling. 00:19:29.220 --> 00:19:31.279 Are you depressed? And you're like, no, I'm not 00:19:31.279 --> 00:19:34.119 depressed. Like, yeah, you are. Yes, you are. 00:19:34.119 --> 00:19:36.339 You are sad. You are depressed. You are struggling. 00:19:37.420 --> 00:19:40.880 Like, you're not being lazy. It's not that you're 00:19:40.880 --> 00:19:43.019 not trying, or maybe you're not. But maybe you 00:19:43.019 --> 00:19:46.609 have a reason, you know, and I think The more 00:19:46.609 --> 00:19:49.769 I am open about myself, so many other people 00:19:49.769 --> 00:19:52.269 have begun being open with me and with them because 00:19:52.269 --> 00:19:56.230 of it, right? When I was trying to enact some 00:19:56.230 --> 00:19:58.390 of the changes about some of the things that 00:19:58.390 --> 00:20:00.410 were really hard, like our hardest shifts or 00:20:00.410 --> 00:20:02.890 our longest shifts, I reached out to like every 00:20:02.890 --> 00:20:04.869 resident and was like, how was your mental health 00:20:04.869 --> 00:20:07.230 during this time or situation when you were doing 00:20:07.230 --> 00:20:11.190 this? And I was able to present that to my program 00:20:11.190 --> 00:20:13.990 director. And none of those people had ever been 00:20:13.990 --> 00:20:15.869 asked that question. And none of those people 00:20:15.869 --> 00:20:18.490 had ever discussed it. Most of them said, oh, 00:20:18.509 --> 00:20:20.910 I didn't tell anybody. Oh, I wasn't telling anybody. 00:20:22.490 --> 00:20:24.589 And some of those people even admitted to having 00:20:24.589 --> 00:20:27.730 suicidal ideations and things during that time 00:20:27.730 --> 00:20:31.109 or really severe depression or really severe 00:20:31.109 --> 00:20:36.210 anxiety. And so like, Me being so open to that 00:20:36.210 --> 00:20:38.410 with them when I was going through those experiences 00:20:38.410 --> 00:20:41.809 I told them what I was struggling with and Asking 00:20:41.809 --> 00:20:44.269 them like we all started dialogue and then I 00:20:44.269 --> 00:20:47.089 was able to use that and make an actual physical 00:20:47.089 --> 00:20:50.509 change in my program that My administration was 00:20:50.509 --> 00:20:52.950 really happy to do because I had a plan and I 00:20:52.950 --> 00:20:55.670 had the data to support it and we just changed 00:20:55.670 --> 00:20:58.670 it right now if you don't have a supportive, 00:20:58.670 --> 00:21:02.049 you know program director and administration, 00:21:02.190 --> 00:21:04.589 you are going to struggle a lot more. But if 00:21:04.589 --> 00:21:08.029 I had just come and said, this is hard, I don't 00:21:08.029 --> 00:21:10.930 like it, that would have been the end of the 00:21:10.930 --> 00:21:13.210 conversation, right? But I talked with people, 00:21:13.710 --> 00:21:17.430 I had a plan, and we'll see if all those changes 00:21:17.430 --> 00:21:19.849 help, but I think that they are, and I'm seeing 00:21:19.849 --> 00:21:23.230 that with some of the interns. So it's essential. 00:21:23.430 --> 00:21:25.569 You do not make change without communication, 00:21:25.569 --> 00:21:27.970 and people can't help you if they don't know 00:21:27.970 --> 00:21:30.779 what's going on. Very fair. I think that's super 00:21:30.779 --> 00:21:34.059 encouraging just to know that you were able to 00:21:34.059 --> 00:21:37.700 take like this data from your residence and have 00:21:37.700 --> 00:21:40.059 change made because I think that's the issue 00:21:40.059 --> 00:21:41.960 with a lot of people is they don't realize that 00:21:41.960 --> 00:21:44.259 there can actually be fruit from it. You know, 00:21:44.299 --> 00:21:46.000 a lot of people are like, I'm not going to say 00:21:46.000 --> 00:21:47.500 anything. Nothing's going to change anyways, 00:21:47.500 --> 00:21:50.920 but then just have the conversation. Yeah. And 00:21:50.920 --> 00:21:52.680 like I said, I made a lot of waves and a lot 00:21:52.680 --> 00:21:54.799 of made a lot of people unhappy with what I was 00:21:54.799 --> 00:21:57.740 doing because it made some things more complicated 00:21:57.740 --> 00:22:00.880 and like there was consequences for what I was 00:22:00.880 --> 00:22:04.460 doing. It was not all easy. And a lot of times 00:22:04.460 --> 00:22:06.380 when I have new interns and they're struggling 00:22:06.380 --> 00:22:08.500 with something, I kind of always present them 00:22:08.500 --> 00:22:10.359 with two choices. And I say, listen, if you want 00:22:10.359 --> 00:22:12.119 to go with the flow, that's your choice. Like 00:22:12.119 --> 00:22:15.000 if it brings you more anxiety and stress to try 00:22:15.000 --> 00:22:17.180 and fight this and change it, that's fine. I'm 00:22:17.180 --> 00:22:19.440 not saying you need to do that. Like you need 00:22:19.440 --> 00:22:22.160 to do what's right for you. And some people will 00:22:22.160 --> 00:22:23.859 choose that road. And some people will say, I 00:22:23.859 --> 00:22:25.759 don't care how hard this is for me. I need to 00:22:25.759 --> 00:22:30.170 make this better. It's fine, whichever one you 00:22:30.170 --> 00:22:33.470 choose, but just know that if you choose that 00:22:33.470 --> 00:22:35.329 harder road, it is literally going to be harder. 00:22:35.349 --> 00:22:37.869 It is going to suck, but there may be some benefit 00:22:37.869 --> 00:22:41.410 on the end for a lot of people. And you have 00:22:41.410 --> 00:22:43.150 to do what's right for you and your mental health 00:22:43.150 --> 00:22:46.750 and your career. But just because people are 00:22:46.750 --> 00:22:49.269 frustrated or upset or their waves does not mean 00:22:49.269 --> 00:22:51.769 you're doing the wrong thing. You have to know 00:22:51.769 --> 00:22:53.789 your values. You have to know what's worth it. 00:22:53.990 --> 00:22:55.970 And you have to fight for what you believe in. 00:22:55.970 --> 00:22:59.279 And that's a lot of what my social media is about, 00:22:59.380 --> 00:23:02.119 and a lot of what I talk about is, you know, 00:23:02.359 --> 00:23:03.960 standing up for what you believe in no matter 00:23:03.960 --> 00:23:08.339 what. Very fair. What advice would you, other 00:23:08.339 --> 00:23:12.119 than that, give to all students or residents, 00:23:12.420 --> 00:23:14.119 particularly women, who may be struggling with 00:23:14.119 --> 00:23:16.180 these pressures that we go through during training? 00:23:17.500 --> 00:23:21.309 I think, you know, this is probably The most 00:23:21.309 --> 00:23:23.230 obvious thing ever and we don't have a lot of 00:23:23.230 --> 00:23:24.869 time for it, but I don't know what I do without 00:23:24.869 --> 00:23:28.309 therapy. I'm also lucky enough that I've also 00:23:28.309 --> 00:23:30.049 had some career coaching, which a lot of people 00:23:30.049 --> 00:23:32.130 don't know about, but it's basically just like 00:23:32.130 --> 00:23:34.809 therapy for your job, where they talk about where 00:23:34.809 --> 00:23:37.089 we talk about like, I'm struggling with this 00:23:37.089 --> 00:23:39.269 part of my job and these social communications 00:23:39.269 --> 00:23:41.910 and this person and like, how do I navigate that 00:23:41.910 --> 00:23:43.630 and how do I talk about this? And it's really, 00:23:43.630 --> 00:23:46.230 really helpful. Not everybody has access to that. 00:23:46.369 --> 00:23:51.509 Not everybody has access to therapy. But medication, 00:23:51.690 --> 00:23:53.869 if you haven't tried medication and you're struggling, 00:23:54.430 --> 00:23:56.849 I have so many friends who I talked into trying 00:23:56.849 --> 00:23:58.829 medication and it didn't work. I talked them 00:23:58.829 --> 00:24:00.789 into trying medication again and it didn't work. 00:24:01.109 --> 00:24:03.170 And I talked into trying medication a third time 00:24:03.170 --> 00:24:06.170 and it has changed their life. And it doesn't 00:24:06.170 --> 00:24:07.609 work for everybody, right? And you're not always 00:24:07.609 --> 00:24:10.150 going to find the right thing, but it has made 00:24:10.150 --> 00:24:13.579 such a... I cannot even describe the difference 00:24:13.579 --> 00:24:16.519 it has made in my life. I think those are some 00:24:16.519 --> 00:24:18.640 very tangible things that you have to do on your 00:24:18.640 --> 00:24:20.200 side that have nothing to do with residency, 00:24:20.279 --> 00:24:22.779 but just have to do with you. Maybe you didn't 00:24:22.779 --> 00:24:24.440 struggle with anxiety and depression since you 00:24:24.440 --> 00:24:27.299 were six years old like I was, right? Maybe yours 00:24:27.299 --> 00:24:30.599 is more adjustment disorder or situational, but 00:24:30.599 --> 00:24:32.059 that doesn't mean it's not real. It doesn't mean 00:24:32.059 --> 00:24:34.539 that other interventions can't help with it. 00:24:34.960 --> 00:24:37.420 I think finding a support system is essential. 00:24:39.119 --> 00:24:41.740 You know, teaching yourself about imposter syndrome, 00:24:42.099 --> 00:24:44.200 learning that no one has it figured out, learning 00:24:44.200 --> 00:24:48.119 that everyone is faking it, and not comparing 00:24:48.119 --> 00:24:49.920 yourself to other people. All of these things 00:24:49.920 --> 00:24:51.839 are things you hear, but doing them is really, 00:24:51.839 --> 00:24:54.539 really hard. Like really, really, really hard. 00:24:55.160 --> 00:24:58.819 So however you learn best, if you're in residency 00:24:58.819 --> 00:25:00.680 or in medical school, you know at this point 00:25:00.680 --> 00:25:03.529 how you learn best. Is it by listening to podcasts 00:25:03.529 --> 00:25:06.170 like this? Is it audio? Is it reading books about 00:25:06.170 --> 00:25:08.609 it? Is it through communication? Do you learn 00:25:08.609 --> 00:25:10.690 best with a therapist or with studying with a 00:25:10.690 --> 00:25:13.430 partner? However you learn best, you have to 00:25:13.430 --> 00:25:15.609 think about your mental health as a skill. It 00:25:15.609 --> 00:25:17.990 doesn't just get better. You have to study it. 00:25:18.009 --> 00:25:20.430 You have to learn about yourself. Again, when 00:25:20.430 --> 00:25:22.589 you're working 90 hours a week, it's kind of 00:25:22.589 --> 00:25:25.789 hard to do that. But if you're working 90 hours 00:25:25.789 --> 00:25:28.630 a week, you're not going to survive however many 00:25:28.630 --> 00:25:31.490 years of that. if you can't figure it out. And 00:25:31.490 --> 00:25:34.809 so take your wellness days, take your vacation, 00:25:35.349 --> 00:25:37.930 do those things and try and take care of yourself 00:25:37.930 --> 00:25:42.109 best you can. Do not turn to alcohol. Do not 00:25:42.109 --> 00:25:44.829 turn to my big one is food binging. That's how 00:25:44.829 --> 00:25:49.250 I deal with a lot of my stress. And all of the 00:25:49.250 --> 00:25:51.970 other maladaptive behaviors like that people 00:25:51.970 --> 00:25:55.410 do, especially in medicine, like you have to 00:25:55.410 --> 00:25:59.359 find a way to recharge and reset for me. I have 00:25:59.359 --> 00:26:04.099 a lot of rules. I'll share a couple of my rules 00:26:04.099 --> 00:26:08.519 with you. So one of the rules is if I'm at the 00:26:08.519 --> 00:26:10.640 hospital later than 11 p .m., I don't go home. 00:26:10.960 --> 00:26:13.819 I sleep in the call room because I can get like 00:26:13.819 --> 00:26:15.940 two hours extra sleep if I don't go home. And 00:26:15.940 --> 00:26:17.980 for me, that makes a huge difference on my mental 00:26:17.980 --> 00:26:21.380 health and it's a little bit safer. So when I 00:26:21.380 --> 00:26:24.740 was like on call a lot and wouldn't get done 00:26:24.740 --> 00:26:26.980 until late, I would just stay in the hospital. 00:26:28.200 --> 00:26:30.240 Another rule I have is if I fall asleep at my 00:26:30.240 --> 00:26:31.980 desk, I'm not allowed to drive home until I take 00:26:31.980 --> 00:26:34.380 a nap because it's literally unsafe. But that 00:26:34.380 --> 00:26:39.160 is a rule I have that protects myself. So a lot 00:26:39.160 --> 00:26:41.539 of rules like that that protect yourself and 00:26:41.539 --> 00:26:43.539 protect your mental health and your sleep and 00:26:43.539 --> 00:26:45.779 your personhood. You're like literally being 00:26:45.779 --> 00:26:48.319 alive and not crashing and dying, I think can 00:26:48.319 --> 00:26:51.200 help because you have such decision fatigue and 00:26:51.200 --> 00:26:53.240 you're so exhausted that making some of those 00:26:53.240 --> 00:26:56.779 choices can be really hard. Sorry, my dogs are 00:26:56.779 --> 00:26:59.099 listening in. They're big fans of the show. Oh, 00:26:59.319 --> 00:27:03.480 that's awesome. So as you think about your own 00:27:03.480 --> 00:27:07.200 future in medicine, how do you hope to carry 00:27:07.200 --> 00:27:09.140 forward what you've learned about supporting 00:27:09.140 --> 00:27:12.200 yourself and others in their mental health journey? 00:27:13.859 --> 00:27:16.700 It's a hard question. I think I'm a big dreamer. 00:27:17.500 --> 00:27:19.720 And so I'm like, oh, I just want to change the 00:27:19.720 --> 00:27:21.640 world. I just want to change health care policy. 00:27:21.700 --> 00:27:23.839 And I want to get the duty hours reduced. And 00:27:23.839 --> 00:27:29.519 I want to do everything. I don't know how grand 00:27:29.519 --> 00:27:31.099 scheme of things will be, but I do want to be 00:27:31.099 --> 00:27:33.299 a program director. And I do want to work on. 00:27:34.329 --> 00:27:37.190 The mental health of my students. One of the 00:27:37.190 --> 00:27:39.170 things that my PB does is he talks to us a lot 00:27:39.170 --> 00:27:42.309 about values and he even takes every year one 00:27:42.309 --> 00:27:44.529 of our education blocks and just sits down and 00:27:44.529 --> 00:27:46.549 talks to us about our values and how to like 00:27:46.549 --> 00:27:48.190 apply that to our life and how to be like a good 00:27:48.190 --> 00:27:51.450 person. And I think that's really inspiring that 00:27:51.450 --> 00:27:54.809 you know we have all this time devoted to education 00:27:54.809 --> 00:27:58.410 and a lot of people don't educate us on like. 00:27:58.640 --> 00:28:01.680 things other than textbooks. And so I want to 00:28:01.680 --> 00:28:04.359 focus on that. I want to continue using my TikTok 00:28:04.359 --> 00:28:08.839 to, you know, bring change and talk to people 00:28:08.839 --> 00:28:12.759 and advocate for people. I don't know, honestly, 00:28:13.440 --> 00:28:15.259 all the things I want to do, because a lot of 00:28:15.259 --> 00:28:17.839 this is still relatively new. You know, I've 00:28:17.839 --> 00:28:21.140 only been TikToking and sharing my story since 00:28:21.140 --> 00:28:25.420 June. And I've kind of been really lucky in that 00:28:25.420 --> 00:28:29.890 I've hit some virality with it, but I think that 00:28:29.890 --> 00:28:31.450 that was something that I was just like, let 00:28:31.450 --> 00:28:34.269 me just try this. And it exploded. And now I 00:28:34.269 --> 00:28:38.089 have this new path. So I know that what I plan 00:28:38.089 --> 00:28:40.750 is probably not that it's going to happen. What 00:28:40.750 --> 00:28:42.589 I planned was to be an algebra teacher and not 00:28:42.589 --> 00:28:44.849 an orthopedic surgeon. What I planned was to 00:28:44.849 --> 00:28:46.890 maybe make some money on TikTok, not to be on 00:28:46.890 --> 00:28:49.269 multiple podcasts and interviewed by people and 00:28:49.269 --> 00:28:51.650 be advocating for mental health. But I think 00:28:51.650 --> 00:28:53.869 when your values are aligned and my values are 00:28:53.869 --> 00:28:57.529 to help people, both in medicine and patients, 00:28:58.089 --> 00:29:01.809 And my values is to be authentic about my mental 00:29:01.809 --> 00:29:04.089 health. And when you are authentic to those, 00:29:04.269 --> 00:29:06.210 everything you touch is going to explode with 00:29:06.210 --> 00:29:09.170 that. Everything that you try and do, you're 00:29:09.170 --> 00:29:11.109 going to incorporate that. So when I'm teaching 00:29:11.109 --> 00:29:13.410 my medical students or my residents, my interns, 00:29:13.769 --> 00:29:15.549 not just teaching them orthopedics, I'm teaching 00:29:15.549 --> 00:29:20.009 them those values. I'm making TikToks. I'm teaching 00:29:20.009 --> 00:29:22.930 those values. So whatever it is that you are 00:29:22.930 --> 00:29:28.009 passionate about, if you insist on bringing that 00:29:28.009 --> 00:29:30.509 to everything you do, it is going to make a change 00:29:30.509 --> 00:29:33.690 and it is going to be impactful. And I have no 00:29:33.690 --> 00:29:35.569 idea how that is going to turn out over the next 00:29:35.569 --> 00:29:38.329 10 years, but I'm excited that it is going to 00:29:38.329 --> 00:29:40.509 turn out. I know that it is going to make a difference 00:29:40.509 --> 00:29:44.910 because I'm not going to let it not. I love it. 00:29:45.150 --> 00:29:47.690 Yeah, that's great. Thank you so much for your 00:29:47.690 --> 00:29:49.690 advice and this talk today. It's been amazing. 00:29:50.250 --> 00:29:54.509 Yeah. I'm happy to talk about it and people can 00:29:54.509 --> 00:29:56.210 absolutely reach out to me. People reach out 00:29:56.210 --> 00:29:59.950 to me all the time when they're struggling. And 00:29:59.950 --> 00:30:01.769 honestly, it's nice for me too to hear other 00:30:01.769 --> 00:30:04.730 people struggling. It's hard. It does get easier, 00:30:04.829 --> 00:30:10.029 but it's really hard. And I'm sure being an attending 00:30:10.029 --> 00:30:12.329 is also hard. I'm sure being a medical student 00:30:12.329 --> 00:30:14.430 was also hard. I'm sure being a nursing student 00:30:14.430 --> 00:30:17.529 was also hard. Our lives are hard and we're choosing 00:30:17.529 --> 00:30:21.539 more. really difficult path. So if you're struggling, 00:30:21.680 --> 00:30:23.900 it's because you chose something really, really 00:30:23.900 --> 00:30:26.660 hard. You're not doing anything wrong. You are 00:30:26.660 --> 00:30:29.640 struggling because it is hard. And that's a very 00:30:29.640 --> 00:30:32.779 reasonable response. Yeah, it's a great way to 00:30:32.779 --> 00:30:36.619 look at it. Love it. So that's a wrap on this 00:30:36.619 --> 00:30:39.220 episode of Our Voice is Our Future. We hope today's 00:30:39.220 --> 00:30:41.319 conversation inspired you, challenged you, and 00:30:41.319 --> 00:30:43.160 reminded you of the power of raising your voice. 00:30:43.339 --> 00:30:45.220 The fight for equity doesn't stop here. Join 00:30:45.220 --> 00:30:47.609 us in the movement. Subscribe wherever you get 00:30:47.609 --> 00:30:49.789 your podcasts and if you love this episode, share 00:30:49.789 --> 00:30:52.329 it with someone who needs to hear it. Until next 00:30:52.329 --> 00:30:55.069 time, stay bold, stay vocal, and keep the conversation 00:30:55.069 --> 00:30:56.970 going. This is Our Voices, Our Future.