WEBVTT 00:00:10.820 --> 00:00:13.300 Welcome to Our Voices Our Future, the podcast 00:00:13.300 --> 00:00:15.859 where we amplify the voices driving change and 00:00:15.859 --> 00:00:18.239 equity within medicine and beyond. Brought to 00:00:18.239 --> 00:00:20.300 you by the Gender Equity Task Force, a committee 00:00:20.300 --> 00:00:22.480 of the American Medical Women's Association. 00:00:22.960 --> 00:00:24.719 We're here to challenge norms, break barriers, 00:00:25.059 --> 00:00:27.539 and ignite conversations that matter. I'm Megan 00:00:27.539 --> 00:00:29.879 Etsy, and in each episode, we'll bring you candid 00:00:29.879 --> 00:00:32.240 discussions with leaders, change makers, and 00:00:32.240 --> 00:00:34.179 advocates working to create a more inclusive 00:00:34.179 --> 00:00:37.109 and just world. No more silence, no more waiting. 00:00:37.670 --> 00:00:39.810 You're listening to Our Voices, Our Future. Let's 00:00:39.810 --> 00:00:42.670 get into it. Today we're welcoming Dr. Eileen 00:00:42.670 --> 00:00:45.250 Barrett, who's an internal medicine and addiction 00:00:45.250 --> 00:00:47.909 physician based in Albuquerque. She received 00:00:47.909 --> 00:00:50.549 her MPH from the University of North Carolina 00:00:50.549 --> 00:00:53.570 at Chapel Hill and her MD at Georgetown University. 00:00:53.869 --> 00:00:56.109 She completed her internal medicine residency 00:00:56.109 --> 00:00:58.570 at Oregon Health Sciences University Hospital 00:00:58.570 --> 00:01:01.509 and completed a medical justice and advocacy 00:01:01.509 --> 00:01:03.469 fellowship through Morehouse School of Medicine 00:01:03.469 --> 00:01:06.129 and the American Medical Association in 2022. 00:01:08.779 --> 00:01:11.340 2025 -2026 President of the American Medical 00:01:11.340 --> 00:01:13.959 Women's Association and Chair Emerita of the 00:01:13.959 --> 00:01:16.980 Board of Regents of the American College of Physicians. 00:01:17.319 --> 00:01:19.719 Her writing has been published in JAMA, the Journal 00:01:19.719 --> 00:01:21.760 of Addiction Medicine, the Journal of Hospital 00:01:21.760 --> 00:01:24.019 Medicine, the Annals of Internal Medicine, Modern 00:01:24.019 --> 00:01:26.840 Health Care, the New York Times, and more. Thank 00:01:26.840 --> 00:01:30.829 you for being here, Dr. Barrett. Oh, my goodness. 00:01:30.950 --> 00:01:32.930 Thank you so much for having me. Thank you for 00:01:32.930 --> 00:01:35.349 valuing this type of work. Thank you for doing 00:01:35.349 --> 00:01:37.370 this work. And I did hear you refer to me as 00:01:37.370 --> 00:01:39.370 Dr. Barrett, which you're welcome to continue 00:01:39.370 --> 00:01:41.409 to do. Please also feel welcome to call me Eileen. 00:01:42.049 --> 00:01:44.590 Thank you. So you've had an incredible journey 00:01:44.590 --> 00:01:48.650 from earning your MD and MPH to leading national 00:01:48.650 --> 00:01:52.370 medical organizations and publishing across these 00:01:52.370 --> 00:01:54.730 top journals. To start, can you share what first 00:01:54.730 --> 00:01:57.090 inspired your passion for medical justice and 00:01:57.090 --> 00:02:01.799 inclusion in health care spaces? So I opened 00:02:01.799 --> 00:02:03.420 with an um, which means clearly I'm not quite 00:02:03.420 --> 00:02:05.379 sure what to say or where to start. And I think 00:02:05.379 --> 00:02:07.500 for most of us, we don't really have a Shazam 00:02:07.500 --> 00:02:10.199 type moment. And instead really what it is is 00:02:10.199 --> 00:02:12.780 that it's an extension of the way we experience 00:02:12.780 --> 00:02:15.419 the world, the way that we see other people experience 00:02:15.419 --> 00:02:17.960 the world. What are the reflections that we have? 00:02:18.780 --> 00:02:21.180 And to some extent, the moment that we realize 00:02:21.180 --> 00:02:25.189 that we can be a change agent. And so I can't 00:02:25.189 --> 00:02:26.770 say that there was one day that like a light 00:02:26.770 --> 00:02:30.129 switch went off. What I can say is that I was 00:02:30.129 --> 00:02:34.129 raised by parents who really believe in injustice 00:02:34.129 --> 00:02:39.430 and also in inclusion and also in trying to make 00:02:39.430 --> 00:02:42.050 the world better in ways that they can. So particularly 00:02:42.050 --> 00:02:45.789 say, for example, when my dad, when I was little, 00:02:45.810 --> 00:02:48.169 he ran for our local school board. And one of 00:02:48.169 --> 00:02:49.789 the things that he was really effective at doing 00:02:49.789 --> 00:02:52.560 was that over the, I mean, I don't know how many 00:02:52.560 --> 00:02:54.259 years it took, but he was on the board for like 00:02:54.259 --> 00:02:56.199 20 years. And one of the things that he ended 00:02:56.199 --> 00:02:58.580 up doing was that he helped with the distribution 00:02:58.580 --> 00:03:01.639 of where teachers were and redistributing specifically. 00:03:03.050 --> 00:03:05.590 so that the underperforming schools didn't always 00:03:05.590 --> 00:03:08.229 have the teachers who had the lower teaching 00:03:08.229 --> 00:03:11.969 evaluations. So where we went to elementary school, 00:03:12.349 --> 00:03:15.710 it was a place for often teachers who were underperforming 00:03:15.710 --> 00:03:19.349 in the wealthier parts of the school district 00:03:19.349 --> 00:03:23.210 were also replaced. And my dad didn't think it 00:03:23.210 --> 00:03:25.689 was right. And he didn't think it was right in 00:03:25.689 --> 00:03:27.710 the other school where it happened either. So 00:03:27.710 --> 00:03:29.370 that was one of the things that he worked on. 00:03:30.230 --> 00:03:33.930 My mom, she also was someone who was also somebody 00:03:33.930 --> 00:03:36.750 who felt like that. She could be a change agent. 00:03:37.530 --> 00:03:41.689 Although my mom was a, my mom was a stay -at 00:03:41.689 --> 00:03:46.729 -home mom for my early childhood and that I didn't 00:03:46.729 --> 00:03:48.729 realize it at the time, but my parents had decided 00:03:48.729 --> 00:03:53.599 together that when my I'm the youngest in my 00:03:53.599 --> 00:03:55.979 family. And that when I started kindergarten 00:03:55.979 --> 00:03:58.860 with my twin, that that is also when my mom would 00:03:58.860 --> 00:04:01.080 start community college. And so that's when she 00:04:01.080 --> 00:04:03.900 started working on her associate's degree. And 00:04:03.900 --> 00:04:06.379 yeah, yeah. And so that was the decision that 00:04:06.379 --> 00:04:08.520 they came to together. And then she took one 00:04:08.520 --> 00:04:10.960 class per semester. And one of the things that 00:04:10.960 --> 00:04:12.479 she also did during that time was when there 00:04:12.479 --> 00:04:15.819 was a position open. in our village board that 00:04:15.819 --> 00:04:18.980 she ran for village trustee. And what she wanted 00:04:18.980 --> 00:04:21.699 to do is she really wanted us to have a mandatory 00:04:21.699 --> 00:04:24.980 recycling program. And that was like a key part 00:04:24.980 --> 00:04:26.860 of her platform. And she just thought that that 00:04:26.860 --> 00:04:30.899 was right. And she did it. And it was, this was 00:04:30.899 --> 00:04:35.279 like 1998. So like way before this was something 00:04:35.279 --> 00:04:37.560 that was everywhere. So I guess what I'm identifying 00:04:37.560 --> 00:04:42.240 here is that I had parents who it was something 00:04:42.240 --> 00:04:45.040 that mattered to them. were people who saw themselves 00:04:45.040 --> 00:04:47.120 that they could be change agents. So sometimes 00:04:47.120 --> 00:04:50.839 you plant potatoes and you get potatoes. So I 00:04:50.839 --> 00:04:54.899 don't remember what was the first time I, I do 00:04:54.899 --> 00:04:56.680 know that my first letter to the editor that 00:04:56.680 --> 00:05:00.180 I submitted, I think it was 11. It was, it was 00:05:00.180 --> 00:05:03.360 not accepted. I want to be clear, but that's 00:05:03.360 --> 00:05:07.990 okay. My parents also said, don't worry. sometime. 00:05:08.709 --> 00:05:12.170 And then, yeah, and then that sort of continued. 00:05:12.350 --> 00:05:14.250 I did a domestic volunteering program the year 00:05:14.250 --> 00:05:16.910 after college that was also just disoriented. 00:05:17.389 --> 00:05:19.329 And after that, I thought, well, if I really 00:05:19.329 --> 00:05:21.009 want to be a doctor and take care of people, 00:05:21.009 --> 00:05:22.949 I have to understand the context in which people 00:05:22.949 --> 00:05:26.990 receive their experience, their health. And so 00:05:26.990 --> 00:05:29.449 that's what led me to get an MPH before I went 00:05:29.449 --> 00:05:32.290 to med school. So you asked a very direct question, 00:05:32.350 --> 00:05:37.240 Megan, and I really, I was very circumcise. I 00:05:37.240 --> 00:05:39.040 think it's just in your blood. I think that's 00:05:39.040 --> 00:05:42.839 your answer, right? It's just... Okay, clearly 00:05:42.839 --> 00:05:44.860 I should have asked you what I should have said 00:05:44.860 --> 00:05:48.480 because you nailed it. No, that's awesome. You've 00:05:48.480 --> 00:05:50.519 had a great experience. Your parents have really 00:05:50.519 --> 00:05:53.459 raised you up to be this person it sounds like. 00:05:54.120 --> 00:05:57.300 And I think the next question ties directly into 00:05:57.300 --> 00:06:00.160 that. So in your experience, what does this inclusion 00:06:00.160 --> 00:06:04.139 and belonging... truly look like in these training 00:06:04.139 --> 00:06:07.100 environments, professional workplaces, and how 00:06:07.100 --> 00:06:10.720 do these concepts kind of go beyond just diversity 00:06:10.720 --> 00:06:16.600 metrics? I love this question and I feel as though 00:06:16.600 --> 00:06:19.500 it could be a dissertation and I'm going to do 00:06:19.500 --> 00:06:22.740 my best to answer from my heart, which is that 00:06:22.740 --> 00:06:25.120 I truly believe that inclusion and belonging 00:06:25.120 --> 00:06:27.420 in both our training environments and our professional 00:06:27.420 --> 00:06:30.639 workplaces, what it is, is when you never, never 00:06:30.639 --> 00:06:33.120 even occurs to you to question that the place 00:06:33.120 --> 00:06:37.600 is better for having you. And I think that's 00:06:37.600 --> 00:06:41.610 what everybody deserves. I love that. Very simple, 00:06:41.910 --> 00:06:45.970 but perfect, right? Yeah, I'm glad that that 00:06:45.970 --> 00:06:51.790 landed with you as well. Yeah, I love that. So 00:06:51.790 --> 00:06:54.870 what would you say some of the most common or 00:06:54.870 --> 00:06:58.329 overlooked barriers to this inclusion and belonging 00:06:58.329 --> 00:07:01.230 would be like, especially in these historically 00:07:01.230 --> 00:07:03.949 marginalized backgrounds that we have, we face 00:07:03.949 --> 00:07:06.920 in the medical education and these especially 00:07:06.920 --> 00:07:09.500 early career stages, although it's throughout 00:07:09.500 --> 00:07:13.339 your entire career more than likely. Yeah, one 00:07:13.339 --> 00:07:15.319 of them, it's such a great question that you're 00:07:15.319 --> 00:07:18.240 asking because this, so often when we feel like 00:07:18.240 --> 00:07:21.500 we don't belong and with this space doesn't look 00:07:21.500 --> 00:07:24.819 like us, what we often don't recognize is how 00:07:24.819 --> 00:07:29.009 many other people feel similarly. So for other 00:07:29.009 --> 00:07:32.449 reasons, right? And yet they may be struggling 00:07:32.449 --> 00:07:35.850 with the same things that we are. And so I think 00:07:35.850 --> 00:07:40.089 that one of the barriers is people who feel like 00:07:40.089 --> 00:07:42.209 they belong, it never occurs to them that other 00:07:42.209 --> 00:07:46.529 people don't. People who don't, they feel that 00:07:46.529 --> 00:07:49.410 way for lots of different reasons, including 00:07:49.410 --> 00:07:51.850 the way as an adoptive response to how they're 00:07:51.850 --> 00:07:56.269 treated, right? and an adaptive response to say 00:07:56.269 --> 00:07:59.410 the hidden curriculum, an adaptive response to 00:07:59.410 --> 00:08:02.709 even the way the physical planet looks like, 00:08:02.970 --> 00:08:05.230 to the way we're treating the patients, the way 00:08:05.230 --> 00:08:06.990 we talk about the patients, the way we treat 00:08:06.990 --> 00:08:09.449 each other, the way we treat the patients. I 00:08:09.449 --> 00:08:12.250 mean, there's lots of different reasons. So I 00:08:12.250 --> 00:08:19.350 think that the barriers are many and that they're 00:08:19.350 --> 00:08:22.910 a little bit like the first line of the Tolstoy 00:08:22.910 --> 00:08:26.949 novel Anna Karenina that all happy families are 00:08:26.949 --> 00:08:29.189 alike and all happy families aren't happy in 00:08:29.189 --> 00:08:32.029 their own way, which is that when people don't 00:08:32.029 --> 00:08:34.610 feel like they belong, that it can be for lots 00:08:34.610 --> 00:08:36.509 of different reasons. And no matter what the 00:08:36.509 --> 00:08:42.519 reason, we all have a duty to help create an 00:08:42.519 --> 00:08:44.399 environment where everybody knows that the place 00:08:44.399 --> 00:08:47.320 is better because they are there. Even we don't 00:08:47.320 --> 00:08:49.320 believe it fully. Like, you know, there's this 00:08:49.320 --> 00:08:51.759 line that I read in this wonderful book called 00:08:51.759 --> 00:08:56.659 An American Family by Presidential Medal of Freedom 00:08:56.659 --> 00:09:01.019 winner. And famously, he's a Pakistani American 00:09:01.019 --> 00:09:06.799 Muslim who's an attorney who who was speaking 00:09:06.799 --> 00:09:10.019 at the DNC and he held up his copy of the Constitution. 00:09:10.480 --> 00:09:12.139 And so a lot of people know that image, but they 00:09:12.139 --> 00:09:14.039 don't know his name. He wrote a wonderful book, 00:09:14.159 --> 00:09:15.840 but that is his memoir. But one of the things 00:09:15.840 --> 00:09:18.039 that he does throughout it is he quotes different 00:09:18.039 --> 00:09:20.940 famous poets. And one of the lines in it that 00:09:20.940 --> 00:09:24.500 I believe is from, I think is from Rumi is just 00:09:24.500 --> 00:09:26.259 because you're thirsty doesn't mean you can't 00:09:26.259 --> 00:09:29.259 be a river for somebody else. And so I feel like 00:09:29.259 --> 00:09:32.379 that is something all of us can do. So to your 00:09:32.379 --> 00:09:35.360 idea of barriers, And what are some of the barriers? 00:09:35.480 --> 00:09:37.379 One of them is we don't even recognize. One of 00:09:37.379 --> 00:09:38.860 them is that we don't know that we can be the 00:09:38.860 --> 00:09:43.299 change agent. And one of them, there's so many. 00:09:43.500 --> 00:09:46.840 And then yet another one is still that we don't 00:09:46.840 --> 00:09:50.100 recognize always that the time to make change 00:09:50.100 --> 00:09:53.779 was yesterday. But in the line that the next 00:09:53.779 --> 00:09:55.820 best time, the best time to plant a tree was 00:09:55.820 --> 00:09:59.000 30 years ago, the next best time is today. So 00:09:59.000 --> 00:10:01.379 we can do that at every moment is to try to make 00:10:02.690 --> 00:10:05.750 our learning environments, our work environments, 00:10:06.289 --> 00:10:09.590 our lives, places where people feel like they 00:10:09.590 --> 00:10:12.470 belong and that they know that they belong. Megan, 00:10:12.470 --> 00:10:14.269 I hope that that even got to what you were trying 00:10:14.269 --> 00:10:16.610 to say. Again, another likely answer that you'll 00:10:16.610 --> 00:10:18.529 probably be able to distill into something really 00:10:18.529 --> 00:10:21.690 brief. No, I love it. I love it. Those are amazing 00:10:21.690 --> 00:10:24.549 quotes. And I think that, like you said, many 00:10:24.549 --> 00:10:26.929 people kind of might hesitate to act because 00:10:26.929 --> 00:10:32.080 they think that maybe It's big for them, right? 00:10:32.120 --> 00:10:37.259 To act on these changes is big. And maybe they 00:10:37.259 --> 00:10:40.980 think it's beyond their capabilities or people 00:10:40.980 --> 00:10:44.799 may not listen. But what are some of these small 00:10:44.799 --> 00:10:46.980 but meaningful actions people can take, you know, 00:10:47.039 --> 00:10:49.679 that ripple effects, whether they're a colleague, 00:10:49.940 --> 00:10:52.220 they're a faculty, they're a trainee, to kind 00:10:52.220 --> 00:10:54.799 of just foster these environments, they're gonna 00:10:54.799 --> 00:10:59.409 push us forward in these areas. Yeah, so there's 00:10:59.409 --> 00:11:01.350 so many, and it's hard to even know where to 00:11:01.350 --> 00:11:03.110 start, right? Because I think that, of course, 00:11:03.129 --> 00:11:05.549 it starts with a lot of their super foundations, 00:11:05.809 --> 00:11:10.110 which is the gosh and matter line that I can't 00:11:10.110 --> 00:11:13.129 take credit for that I get from John Bruno, who 00:11:13.129 --> 00:11:16.769 is someone who I took meditation and mindfulness 00:11:16.769 --> 00:11:19.769 courses with, which is that the best gift you 00:11:19.769 --> 00:11:22.169 can give somebody is your attention. So if we 00:11:22.169 --> 00:11:24.919 are attentive to the people around us, and we're 00:11:24.919 --> 00:11:27.200 mindful of what is their experience. There's 00:11:27.200 --> 00:11:29.259 some just even just seeing people matters, right? 00:11:29.720 --> 00:11:31.860 Like kind gestures, like moments of kindness, 00:11:32.080 --> 00:11:35.179 moments of recognition. And then building upon 00:11:35.179 --> 00:11:37.519 that, I mean, really foundational things like 00:11:37.519 --> 00:11:40.220 that we address people by their pronouns, you 00:11:40.220 --> 00:11:41.679 know, with their proper pronouns, with their 00:11:41.679 --> 00:11:44.440 proper honorifics, right? Most of us women who 00:11:44.440 --> 00:11:46.899 have the experience in medicine and out of say, 00:11:46.960 --> 00:11:49.419 this is like such a low hanging fruit, but that, 00:11:49.960 --> 00:11:51.679 you know, when you're giving a talk somewhere, 00:11:52.000 --> 00:11:55.080 and it's Dr. Dr. Dr. Eileen. And I say that because 00:11:55.080 --> 00:11:58.019 it's men, men, men, and then me. And that just 00:11:58.019 --> 00:11:59.460 happened to be at like, you know, presenting 00:11:59.460 --> 00:12:01.620 at national conferences with international attendees 00:12:01.620 --> 00:12:03.360 and it was Dr. Dr. Dr. And, you know, and it's 00:12:03.360 --> 00:12:05.120 actually like, I'm a doctor too. You know, so 00:12:05.120 --> 00:12:06.940 what we do is we, you know, we make sure if we're 00:12:06.940 --> 00:12:08.159 going to, we're going to air, we're going to 00:12:08.159 --> 00:12:10.259 air in the caution of saying, Dr. Graciously, 00:12:10.279 --> 00:12:13.139 you did too. My job is also to be gracious and 00:12:13.139 --> 00:12:15.899 to say, please call me Eileen, do what you want. 00:12:16.259 --> 00:12:18.299 So we can do those things. Others, of course, 00:12:18.320 --> 00:12:20.139 also things like asking people what is the best 00:12:20.139 --> 00:12:24.120 way to pronounce their name. Those are some pretty 00:12:24.120 --> 00:12:27.039 low hanging fruit. Other things that we can do 00:12:27.039 --> 00:12:29.889 that start to get it like How do we think about 00:12:29.889 --> 00:12:32.950 images, right? That we're going to be using in 00:12:32.950 --> 00:12:35.029 our talks, in our built environment, things like 00:12:35.029 --> 00:12:37.110 that. And how can we involve people in the built 00:12:37.110 --> 00:12:39.309 environment to say, how can we make this better? 00:12:39.870 --> 00:12:42.250 And we can also think just really creatively. 00:12:42.730 --> 00:12:44.690 So I've talked about some things that are really 00:12:44.690 --> 00:12:47.610 foundational. If I may take a moment to say some 00:12:47.610 --> 00:12:49.730 things that I had a lot of fun with, if that's 00:12:49.730 --> 00:12:52.110 okay? Yeah, absolutely. Oh, thank you. Thank 00:12:52.110 --> 00:12:56.490 you. When I was a medical educator, one day I 00:12:56.490 --> 00:12:59.679 had the absolute privilege and Joy, that on my 00:12:59.679 --> 00:13:02.980 team, I was the only person who, whose first 00:13:02.980 --> 00:13:05.980 language, well, that everybody else spoke another 00:13:05.980 --> 00:13:08.580 language before they spoke English. And so one 00:13:08.580 --> 00:13:11.460 person's household was Spanish speaking, one 00:13:11.460 --> 00:13:16.299 was Navajo speaking, one was Farsi from, spoke 00:13:16.299 --> 00:13:20.139 Farsi as her first language, one Arabic. And 00:13:20.139 --> 00:13:22.200 specifically when I was working with the two 00:13:22.200 --> 00:13:24.019 students and one whose first language is Navajo 00:13:24.019 --> 00:13:26.240 and one was Spanish. And then one of them had 00:13:26.240 --> 00:13:31.559 the little tag on their name badge reel, that 00:13:31.559 --> 00:13:34.539 was the physician's oath. And they had gotten 00:13:34.539 --> 00:13:35.919 that when they did their white coat ceremony. 00:13:37.600 --> 00:13:40.059 And I had seen something in a magazine once that 00:13:40.059 --> 00:13:41.320 someone had said, like, oh, they were thinking 00:13:41.320 --> 00:13:43.759 about translating the Hippocratic oath into a 00:13:43.759 --> 00:13:45.500 different language or something. And so I just 00:13:45.500 --> 00:13:47.000 happened to mention, oh, my gosh, I see that 00:13:47.000 --> 00:13:48.919 you have that. That's really nice. This is kind 00:13:48.919 --> 00:13:52.019 of random. Would that mean anything if that was 00:13:52.019 --> 00:13:56.200 in Spanish and Navajo? And both of them were 00:13:56.200 --> 00:13:59.059 like, Yeah, that would be really cool. So you 00:13:59.059 --> 00:14:00.840 just, you know, what is the small change I can 00:14:00.840 --> 00:14:02.799 I can affect in the world, right? Like what is 00:14:02.799 --> 00:14:05.059 within my sphere of influence? So in this case, 00:14:05.100 --> 00:14:06.960 I was able to partner with one of those learners 00:14:06.960 --> 00:14:11.240 who then and then was connected with a deeply, 00:14:11.440 --> 00:14:15.019 deeply respected Navajo elder who was an educator 00:14:15.019 --> 00:14:18.320 and he translated the physician's oath into Navajo. 00:14:18.419 --> 00:14:22.279 And then I submitted it. And so I sent it to 00:14:22.279 --> 00:14:24.220 them and said, would you consider this as an 00:14:24.220 --> 00:14:26.820 official version? And they wanted to, they said, 00:14:26.840 --> 00:14:29.159 we love getting this. We want to confirm it. 00:14:29.279 --> 00:14:30.580 And in step I followed up, they weren't able 00:14:30.580 --> 00:14:33.720 to find a Navajo language speaker in Switzerland 00:14:33.720 --> 00:14:37.059 who could confirm it. But they said, we'll take 00:14:37.059 --> 00:14:40.419 it. And so it became officially one of their 00:14:40.419 --> 00:14:43.690 versions of the of the Physician's Oath, and 00:14:43.690 --> 00:14:48.470 then I collaborated with some students and we 00:14:48.470 --> 00:14:51.450 did some successful advocacy so that it was read 00:14:51.450 --> 00:14:53.889 in English, Spanish, the Physician's Oath was 00:14:53.889 --> 00:14:55.909 read when the students were graduating in English, 00:14:55.970 --> 00:14:57.690 Spanish, and Navajo for the first time in the 00:14:57.690 --> 00:15:00.830 world. And so this small moment, and then one 00:15:00.830 --> 00:15:03.769 of those students, by the time I saw her again, 00:15:03.789 --> 00:15:07.330 I mean, I passed in passing, but like, we were 00:15:07.330 --> 00:15:10.269 talking and she was now about to do a fellowship. 00:15:10.690 --> 00:15:12.529 And I said, you know, I don't know if you ever 00:15:12.529 --> 00:15:15.370 knew, but that time in graduation, like when 00:15:15.370 --> 00:15:17.470 it was said in English, Spanish and Navajo, and 00:15:17.470 --> 00:15:19.789 she said, that is, I did not know that it was, 00:15:19.889 --> 00:15:21.710 I said, that was because of you. Like, because 00:15:21.710 --> 00:15:23.990 you had said this could be interesting. And I 00:15:23.990 --> 00:15:26.909 asked her, I said that and I said, so thank you. 00:15:26.909 --> 00:15:28.990 And she said, that was the only graduation of 00:15:28.990 --> 00:15:30.570 all my graduations in my life that my mother 00:15:30.570 --> 00:15:32.769 understood a single word was that part of it. 00:15:33.250 --> 00:15:36.090 Yeah, so we can just choose something small. 00:15:36.389 --> 00:15:40.370 So you asked a simple question and I turned it 00:15:40.370 --> 00:15:43.070 into a story. But what if we just start with, 00:15:43.470 --> 00:15:45.490 what are the levers we have in front of us and 00:15:45.490 --> 00:15:47.690 just start to pull them? So it's like when I 00:15:47.690 --> 00:15:49.490 was co -chairing our Grand Rounds Steering Committee, 00:15:49.870 --> 00:15:51.330 then I was like clowns to the left and we jerked 00:15:51.330 --> 00:15:54.049 to the right. Why have we not had more international 00:15:54.049 --> 00:15:56.409 medical graduate speakers? Why have we not had 00:15:56.409 --> 00:15:59.429 more women? Why have we not had more people who 00:16:00.029 --> 00:16:04.309 who were Indigenous Americans. And then we recognized 00:16:04.309 --> 00:16:07.950 their expertise. And so we had the most amount 00:16:07.950 --> 00:16:11.070 of early career faculty, but also we had learners 00:16:11.070 --> 00:16:13.570 presenting for the first time to their faculty. 00:16:13.850 --> 00:16:15.870 And we also had the most amount of Native American 00:16:15.870 --> 00:16:18.850 speakers, people who were IMGs. And we could 00:16:18.850 --> 00:16:20.889 just look in front of us and how can I make it? 00:16:21.129 --> 00:16:24.529 How can I try to do better? So don't try to change 00:16:24.529 --> 00:16:26.669 somebody else. Try to change myself first. I 00:16:26.669 --> 00:16:29.120 don't know. Megan, what else? What? What? How's 00:16:29.120 --> 00:16:32.320 that? No, I love it. I think that as you're talking 00:16:32.320 --> 00:16:36.340 through it, it resonated a lot with me because 00:16:36.340 --> 00:16:39.259 sometimes these things sound trivial to some 00:16:39.259 --> 00:16:43.080 of us, you know, that have had these more, I 00:16:43.080 --> 00:16:46.519 would say, worldly experiences knowing that for 00:16:46.519 --> 00:16:48.460 everybody, English is not their first language, 00:16:48.460 --> 00:16:52.250 right? As somebody who English is my first language. 00:16:52.490 --> 00:16:56.129 I grew up in a very small Ohio community. These 00:16:56.129 --> 00:16:58.210 are things I would have not thought about until 00:16:58.210 --> 00:17:00.830 I got out and went to medical school and surrounded 00:17:00.830 --> 00:17:04.609 myself with more culturally diverse people. I 00:17:04.609 --> 00:17:07.910 would have not thought that it's super important 00:17:07.910 --> 00:17:12.470 to have these conversations and start these even, 00:17:12.549 --> 00:17:15.950 you know, like having the physician's oath and 00:17:15.950 --> 00:17:18.410 something other than English, languages that 00:17:18.680 --> 00:17:21.480 are other people's first languages, because one, 00:17:22.160 --> 00:17:24.440 their family, it means a lot to them to be able 00:17:24.440 --> 00:17:28.279 to hear these things and process them. Words 00:17:28.279 --> 00:17:30.680 are very different culturally, right? When you 00:17:30.680 --> 00:17:33.039 translate them, things are, sure, they might 00:17:33.039 --> 00:17:35.799 know the English version, but in their home language, 00:17:35.859 --> 00:17:40.240 you know, it might resonate very different. Yeah, 00:17:40.279 --> 00:17:42.579 and these are small steps, right? These aren't 00:17:42.579 --> 00:17:45.299 crazy big things that are super hard to do. These 00:17:45.299 --> 00:17:48.759 are things that most everyday people can can 00:17:48.759 --> 00:17:51.200 kind of attack and get done. And that seems much 00:17:51.200 --> 00:17:54.539 more doable than having to make this crazy systemic 00:17:54.539 --> 00:17:56.779 change, right? But these are all steps in getting 00:17:56.779 --> 00:18:00.680 there. Yeah, I love it. I love that you drew 00:18:00.680 --> 00:18:02.799 out the most important parts there, which is 00:18:02.799 --> 00:18:05.259 there is there is something all of us can do. 00:18:05.720 --> 00:18:08.079 And we can start small and we can just start 00:18:08.079 --> 00:18:10.259 with the person in front of us and start with 00:18:10.259 --> 00:18:12.500 anything that we have control over. And I don't 00:18:12.500 --> 00:18:14.460 mean don't go big. Like I also think that we 00:18:14.460 --> 00:18:18.079 should absolutely go big. But we also can just 00:18:18.079 --> 00:18:19.759 start with the change that's in front of us, 00:18:19.759 --> 00:18:23.640 even if it's small. So I love the way that you 00:18:23.640 --> 00:18:26.200 just reflected that so nicely. And I heard you 00:18:26.200 --> 00:18:28.759 also say, oh, that you were from this smaller 00:18:28.759 --> 00:18:31.119 town in Ohio, and that maybe you wouldn't have 00:18:31.119 --> 00:18:33.339 thought of this. Here's the thing. None of us 00:18:33.339 --> 00:18:35.220 think about anything we haven't been exposed 00:18:35.220 --> 00:18:40.240 to. Right? None of us do. I didn't hear this 00:18:40.240 --> 00:18:41.500 from you, but I don't think that we should feel 00:18:41.500 --> 00:18:43.140 bad about it. I think instead what we try to 00:18:43.140 --> 00:18:45.220 do is we just always just try to do a little 00:18:45.220 --> 00:18:48.240 bit better. That's all. Yeah, I love it. The 00:18:48.240 --> 00:18:51.779 great ones we know. Yeah, and give grace, my 00:18:51.779 --> 00:18:54.619 goodness. Beautifully said. Thank you. As someone 00:18:54.619 --> 00:18:57.119 like you who's led these high -level medical 00:18:57.119 --> 00:18:59.400 organizations, you're president of AMWA now. 00:19:00.299 --> 00:19:02.680 What strategies have you found most effective 00:19:02.680 --> 00:19:05.839 in kind of influencing these higher institutional 00:19:05.839 --> 00:19:12.250 cultures towards more equity and inclusion? Yeah, 00:19:12.289 --> 00:19:14.329 so I feel like that they are the same lessons 00:19:14.329 --> 00:19:16.069 that we are employing no matter where we are. 00:19:16.349 --> 00:19:19.170 One of them is no matter what is to just do our 00:19:19.170 --> 00:19:22.549 best to treat people well, right? Do our best 00:19:22.549 --> 00:19:27.329 to be present and to observe and to be aware 00:19:27.329 --> 00:19:29.309 of the people around us, what is our effect on 00:19:29.309 --> 00:19:33.569 them and how, I'm not gonna say it's like the 00:19:33.569 --> 00:19:36.799 Thoreau quote that most men. of course, because 00:19:36.799 --> 00:19:39.980 those are those men lead lives of quiet desperation. 00:19:40.380 --> 00:19:43.359 I actually don't think that, but I think that 00:19:43.359 --> 00:19:45.339 everybody likes to feel recognized. So do our 00:19:45.339 --> 00:19:48.160 best to see how can we just acknowledge where 00:19:48.160 --> 00:19:50.240 people are, acknowledge what they've been through, 00:19:51.859 --> 00:19:55.819 have gratitude that they're with us and be willing 00:19:55.819 --> 00:19:57.920 to learn from them constantly and to look at 00:19:57.920 --> 00:20:00.559 ways to elevate and amplify them. So I think 00:20:00.559 --> 00:20:05.119 working, let's see, I think doing our best I 00:20:05.119 --> 00:20:09.519 try to do my best to treat people well and try 00:20:09.519 --> 00:20:12.039 to have humility about the times that I don't 00:20:12.039 --> 00:20:15.440 and to try to just do better next time. And I 00:20:15.440 --> 00:20:17.599 find that those soft skills can go a long way 00:20:17.599 --> 00:20:23.380 to change, to be persuasive with individuals 00:20:23.380 --> 00:20:25.799 because all organizations are made up of individuals, 00:20:26.200 --> 00:20:27.579 right? They're made up of individuals. Culture 00:20:27.579 --> 00:20:30.900 starts with each of us. Yeah. And how about you? 00:20:30.980 --> 00:20:35.859 How do you affect change? I think it comes down 00:20:35.859 --> 00:20:38.930 to something very similar to you. kindness. I 00:20:38.930 --> 00:20:42.069 think that just being kind to everybody you're 00:20:42.069 --> 00:20:44.390 interacting with and knowing that, I think you 00:20:44.390 --> 00:20:46.230 mentioned this before, that everybody has their 00:20:46.230 --> 00:20:48.730 own reasons, right? Everybody has their own situations 00:20:48.730 --> 00:20:52.250 that they're going through. Everyone has their 00:20:52.250 --> 00:20:54.230 thought process that brings them to where they 00:20:54.230 --> 00:20:57.829 are. But I think that if you follow it, most 00:20:57.829 --> 00:20:59.930 people, if you sit down and have a conversation 00:20:59.930 --> 00:21:02.970 and follow it back to your roots, you probably 00:21:02.970 --> 00:21:06.589 come to a common moral. Um, and I think that 00:21:06.589 --> 00:21:09.410 just displaying kindness, whether you know those 00:21:09.410 --> 00:21:12.890 common roots or not is important because I like 00:21:12.890 --> 00:21:16.910 to believe that most people's roots are of good 00:21:16.910 --> 00:21:22.829 nature. Yeah, I, um, I do too. I do too. Yeah. 00:21:23.470 --> 00:21:26.529 Yeah. Beautifully said. Thank you. Go off of 00:21:26.529 --> 00:21:29.730 that. Most of this work can be emotionally exhausting 00:21:29.730 --> 00:21:34.690 and very slow sometimes to show that visible 00:21:34.690 --> 00:21:36.829 change. I know you said you wrote your first 00:21:36.829 --> 00:21:39.710 letter at 11, right? It wasn't accepted. When 00:21:39.710 --> 00:21:41.569 was your first one, right? It was probably a 00:21:41.569 --> 00:21:44.690 long time, right? How do you stay resilient and 00:21:44.690 --> 00:21:46.750 hopeful? And what advice do you give to others 00:21:46.750 --> 00:21:49.849 kind of navigating this long road of advocacy 00:21:49.849 --> 00:21:54.319 and justice in health care? Oh, you know, one 00:21:54.319 --> 00:21:56.920 of my wonderful friends, one of the things, he's 00:21:56.920 --> 00:21:59.160 a wonderful person. His name is Omar Atik. He 00:21:59.160 --> 00:22:01.059 was the former president of the American College 00:22:01.059 --> 00:22:02.660 of Physicians when I was the chair of the Board 00:22:02.660 --> 00:22:06.839 of Regents. And he taught me a line that I had 00:22:06.839 --> 00:22:09.059 never heard before, which is that hope is a discipline. 00:22:11.029 --> 00:22:13.150 Yeah, so hope is a discipline. So we have to 00:22:13.150 --> 00:22:14.769 cultivate it the same way we cultivate other 00:22:14.769 --> 00:22:17.130 things. So that has been something that has been 00:22:17.130 --> 00:22:18.829 an important practice to me. And I think it's 00:22:18.829 --> 00:22:21.450 been an extension of my gratitude practice. I've 00:22:21.450 --> 00:22:23.509 had an intentional gratitude practice for probably 00:22:23.509 --> 00:22:27.420 15 years. where every day I reflect on three 00:22:27.420 --> 00:22:30.180 or five good things and that I'm grateful for 00:22:30.180 --> 00:22:31.960 and they're like big and they're small. So today 00:22:31.960 --> 00:22:35.279 I'll be talking and meeting you, right? Yeah, 00:22:35.319 --> 00:22:38.660 yeah. And that we hardware our brain, which is 00:22:38.660 --> 00:22:40.160 that, I mean, the data shows that this isn't 00:22:40.160 --> 00:22:41.839 my idea, right? The data shows this and that 00:22:41.839 --> 00:22:46.119 when we intentionally seek out things that make 00:22:46.119 --> 00:22:48.579 us grateful, that we are grateful for, I should 00:22:48.579 --> 00:22:50.579 say, then it makes us more grateful. And so when 00:22:50.579 --> 00:22:53.240 we intentionally seek out things that make us 00:22:53.200 --> 00:22:55.500 to help us feel more hopeful and we end up feeling 00:22:55.500 --> 00:22:57.759 more hopeful. So that is something that is sort 00:22:57.759 --> 00:23:02.960 of like a real foundation. The other is to surround 00:23:02.960 --> 00:23:08.599 myself with people who give me hope, who inspire 00:23:08.599 --> 00:23:12.279 me. Like I was just thinking about, I recently 00:23:12.279 --> 00:23:14.700 found out that one of my cousins who was non 00:23:14.700 --> 00:23:19.700 -medical, that after RBG passed away, that my 00:23:19.849 --> 00:23:21.710 she started to think about what could she do 00:23:21.710 --> 00:23:23.950 to make the world a better place beyond being 00:23:23.950 --> 00:23:27.950 a good person, which she is. But then also after 00:23:27.950 --> 00:23:30.150 Roe vs. Wade was overturned, then she started 00:23:30.150 --> 00:23:32.890 to volunteer for an organization where people 00:23:32.890 --> 00:23:35.470 who need abortion care and is not available in 00:23:35.470 --> 00:23:37.990 their communities, she hosts them in her home. 00:23:38.309 --> 00:23:41.930 Wow. I mean, she hosts strangers in her home 00:23:41.930 --> 00:23:45.509 who need abortion care. And I was just so moved 00:23:45.509 --> 00:23:50.630 and inspired by that. So I say this is that we 00:23:50.630 --> 00:23:52.930 surround ourselves by people who bring us hope 00:23:52.930 --> 00:23:57.470 and who inspire us and we can't help but have 00:23:57.470 --> 00:24:03.890 that period. So I have those and I'm very lucky 00:24:03.890 --> 00:24:06.490 and I hope that everybody... I was gonna say 00:24:06.490 --> 00:24:08.819 I hope that everybody... has that, and here's 00:24:08.819 --> 00:24:10.880 the thing is they probably do and they may not 00:24:10.880 --> 00:24:14.440 always know it. So if we give people the benefit 00:24:14.440 --> 00:24:17.759 of doubt and we open up to deeper, deep conversations 00:24:17.759 --> 00:24:20.180 and often hard conversations, because sometimes 00:24:20.180 --> 00:24:22.460 we're afraid to have hard conversations for good 00:24:22.460 --> 00:24:25.119 reasons, but if we have an open mind and we keep 00:24:25.119 --> 00:24:27.019 an open heart and that kindness that you talked 00:24:27.019 --> 00:24:29.079 about, then I think that we can find out that 00:24:29.079 --> 00:24:32.019 people often are, they're doing more good work 00:24:32.019 --> 00:24:33.660 than we knew and they're just like right next 00:24:33.660 --> 00:24:37.519 to us. and that it can inspire us when things 00:24:37.519 --> 00:24:41.660 are hard. And I also think that it's important 00:24:41.660 --> 00:24:45.279 for us to take care of ourselves, that I think 00:24:45.279 --> 00:24:49.900 it was Audre Lorde who had said that about self 00:24:49.900 --> 00:24:51.859 -care is an act of political warfare, some version 00:24:51.859 --> 00:24:54.799 of that. And yeah, yeah, do you know that quote? 00:24:54.980 --> 00:24:56.380 I bet you'll say it correctly because I think 00:24:56.380 --> 00:24:59.259 I butchered it. No, I don't know if you were 00:24:59.259 --> 00:25:01.480 wrong or not, but yes, I've heard that before. 00:25:02.029 --> 00:25:04.869 Yeah, yeah, so just let's like, we do take care 00:25:04.869 --> 00:25:06.750 of ourselves so that we can also be of service 00:25:06.750 --> 00:25:10.250 to others. Yeah, those types of things keep me 00:25:10.250 --> 00:25:12.410 hopeful and very tactically sometimes what it 00:25:12.410 --> 00:25:13.950 means is like, I'm going to step back from some 00:25:13.950 --> 00:25:15.970 of the news media for a little bit, and I'm going 00:25:15.970 --> 00:25:17.829 to direct my attention toward the things that 00:25:17.829 --> 00:25:22.140 I know that provide consolation and solace. Sure, 00:25:22.380 --> 00:25:25.920 yeah. So it's kind of wrap that all up. If a 00:25:25.920 --> 00:25:27.940 listener walks away from this conversation with 00:25:27.940 --> 00:25:31.119 just one step that they can take, no matter how 00:25:31.119 --> 00:25:34.319 small, toward creating a more inclusive and welcoming 00:25:34.319 --> 00:25:36.619 spaces in their training or workplace, what would 00:25:36.619 --> 00:25:41.220 you encourage as this that first step? I think 00:25:41.220 --> 00:25:45.420 the first step is to do our best to embrace what 00:25:45.420 --> 00:25:48.670 I took note on. says and that many other people 00:25:48.670 --> 00:25:51.150 have said too, which is that we are here to dispel 00:25:51.150 --> 00:25:54.470 the illusion of our separateness. And when we 00:25:54.470 --> 00:25:58.690 believe that and we see that most people are 00:25:58.690 --> 00:26:01.009 good and they're just doing their best, then 00:26:01.009 --> 00:26:05.809 I think that it can help us see that and to see 00:26:05.809 --> 00:26:09.990 the hopefulness so that then we feel strong enough 00:26:09.990 --> 00:26:14.240 to take that step. to support the person in front 00:26:14.240 --> 00:26:16.400 of us in the way that they would like to receive 00:26:16.400 --> 00:26:20.160 support. Love that. It's great. Thank you so 00:26:20.160 --> 00:26:22.640 much, Dr. Barrett. This has been an amazing conversation 00:26:22.640 --> 00:26:24.920 that has just been full of fruit that I think 00:26:24.920 --> 00:26:26.900 is going to be very helpful to the listeners. 00:26:28.480 --> 00:26:30.220 Oh, thank you. And I know that we're just about 00:26:30.220 --> 00:26:32.960 time, Megan. This is your really, you asked lovely 00:26:32.960 --> 00:26:37.700 questions. May I ask you what sustains you? What 00:26:37.700 --> 00:26:47.990 sustains me? I think it's that positive outlook 00:26:47.990 --> 00:26:49.769 that we kind of talked. I guess you can call 00:26:49.769 --> 00:26:54.049 it hope as well. I think that there are a lot 00:26:54.049 --> 00:26:59.349 of good things, especially medicine. I think 00:26:59.349 --> 00:27:03.309 that there are a lot of good fights that we're 00:27:03.309 --> 00:27:06.650 fighting right now as women in medicine and just 00:27:06.650 --> 00:27:09.930 in the world. And there's a lot of inequities 00:27:09.930 --> 00:27:13.130 that exist and there are a lot of bad things. 00:27:13.349 --> 00:27:17.970 But I think that even having the ability to fight 00:27:17.970 --> 00:27:23.190 the battles is a blessing. I think that the ability 00:27:23.190 --> 00:27:26.710 to have the voice to do these things is great 00:27:26.710 --> 00:27:29.990 and I have hope in that. So I think that just 00:27:29.990 --> 00:27:34.529 to be on the journey itself is sustaining. Although 00:27:34.529 --> 00:27:38.440 it may be exhausting as well. But right, we fill 00:27:38.440 --> 00:27:42.700 our cups so we can pour into others. So I just 00:27:42.700 --> 00:27:45.579 think the outlook is what helps sustain me overall. 00:27:45.819 --> 00:27:51.539 Yeah, the hope and the outlook. I Oh, my goodness. 00:27:51.740 --> 00:27:54.099 Thank you. That was thank you for providing me 00:27:54.099 --> 00:27:57.480 the gift of that answer. And I would like to 00:27:57.480 --> 00:27:59.480 be able to give you credit in the future when 00:27:59.480 --> 00:28:02.500 I say we fill our cups so we can fill others. 00:28:03.160 --> 00:28:06.400 Yes, that was perfect. Thank you, Megan. Thank 00:28:06.400 --> 00:28:08.960 you. I really appreciate this conversation. I 00:28:08.960 --> 00:28:12.460 think that it has filled my cup. I think that 00:28:12.460 --> 00:28:14.839 just having a good conversation with somebody 00:28:14.839 --> 00:28:17.980 who has a good heart when it comes to these things 00:28:17.980 --> 00:28:22.980 is just so nice. Well, that's gracious and kind 00:28:22.980 --> 00:28:26.759 and generous. And thank you for sharing your 00:28:26.759 --> 00:28:29.259 strong and good heart with me today. Absolutely. 00:28:29.759 --> 00:28:31.859 So that's a wrap in this episode of Our Voice 00:28:31.859 --> 00:28:34.799 is Our Future. We hope today's conversation inspired 00:28:34.799 --> 00:28:37.039 you, challenged you, and reminded you of the 00:28:37.039 --> 00:28:39.539 power of raising your voice. The fight for equity 00:28:39.539 --> 00:28:42.319 doesn't stop here. Join us in the movement. Subscribe 00:28:42.319 --> 00:28:44.400 wherever you get your podcasts. And if you love 00:28:44.400 --> 00:28:46.640 this episode, share it with someone who needs 00:28:46.640 --> 00:28:49.519 to hear it. Until next time, stay bold, stay 00:28:49.519 --> 00:28:51.720 vocal, and keep the conversation going. This 00:28:51.720 --> 00:28:52.960 is Our Voice is Our Future.