Welcome to Our Voices Our Future, the podcast
where we amplify the voices driving change and
equity within medicine and beyond. Brought to
you by the Gender Equity Task Force, a committee
of the American Medical Women's Association.
We're here to challenge norms, break barriers,
and ignite conversations that matter. I'm Megan
Etsy, and in each episode, we'll bring you candid
discussions with leaders, change makers, and
advocates working to create a more inclusive
and just world. No more silence, no more waiting.
You're listening to Our Voices, Our Future. Let's
get into it. Today we're welcoming Dr. Eileen
Barrett, who's an internal medicine and addiction
physician based in Albuquerque. She received
her MPH from the University of North Carolina
at Chapel Hill and her MD at Georgetown University.
She completed her internal medicine residency
at Oregon Health Sciences University Hospital
and completed a medical justice and advocacy
fellowship through Morehouse School of Medicine
and the American Medical Association in 2022.
2025 -2026 President of the American Medical
Women's Association and Chair Emerita of the
Board of Regents of the American College of Physicians.
Her writing has been published in JAMA, the Journal
of Addiction Medicine, the Journal of Hospital
Medicine, the Annals of Internal Medicine, Modern
Health Care, the New York Times, and more. Thank
you for being here, Dr. Barrett. Oh, my goodness.
Thank you so much for having me. Thank you for
valuing this type of work. Thank you for doing
this work. And I did hear you refer to me as
Dr. Barrett, which you're welcome to continue
to do. Please also feel welcome to call me Eileen.
Thank you. So you've had an incredible journey
from earning your MD and MPH to leading national
medical organizations and publishing across these
top journals. To start, can you share what first
inspired your passion for medical justice and
inclusion in health care spaces? So I opened
with an um, which means clearly I'm not quite
sure what to say or where to start. And I think
for most of us, we don't really have a Shazam
type moment. And instead really what it is is
that it's an extension of the way we experience
the world, the way that we see other people experience
the world. What are the reflections that we have?
And to some extent, the moment that we realize
that we can be a change agent. And so I can't
say that there was one day that like a light
switch went off. What I can say is that I was
raised by parents who really believe in injustice
and also in inclusion and also in trying to make
the world better in ways that they can. So particularly
say, for example, when my dad, when I was little,
he ran for our local school board. And one of
the things that he was really effective at doing
was that over the, I mean, I don't know how many
years it took, but he was on the board for like
20 years. And one of the things that he ended
up doing was that he helped with the distribution
of where teachers were and redistributing specifically.
so that the underperforming schools didn't always
have the teachers who had the lower teaching
evaluations. So where we went to elementary school,
it was a place for often teachers who were underperforming
in the wealthier parts of the school district
were also replaced. And my dad didn't think it
was right. And he didn't think it was right in
the other school where it happened either. So
that was one of the things that he worked on.
My mom, she also was someone who was also somebody
who felt like that. She could be a change agent.
Although my mom was a, my mom was a stay -at
-home mom for my early childhood and that I didn't
realize it at the time, but my parents had decided
together that when my I'm the youngest in my
family. And that when I started kindergarten
with my twin, that that is also when my mom would
start community college. And so that's when she
started working on her associate's degree. And
yeah, yeah. And so that was the decision that
they came to together. And then she took one
class per semester. And one of the things that
she also did during that time was when there
was a position open. in our village board that
she ran for village trustee. And what she wanted
to do is she really wanted us to have a mandatory
recycling program. And that was like a key part
of her platform. And she just thought that that
was right. And she did it. And it was, this was
like 1998. So like way before this was something
that was everywhere. So I guess what I'm identifying
here is that I had parents who it was something
that mattered to them. were people who saw themselves
that they could be change agents. So sometimes
you plant potatoes and you get potatoes. So I
don't remember what was the first time I, I do
know that my first letter to the editor that
I submitted, I think it was 11. It was, it was
not accepted. I want to be clear, but that's
okay. My parents also said, don't worry. sometime.
And then, yeah, and then that sort of continued.
I did a domestic volunteering program the year
after college that was also just disoriented.
And after that, I thought, well, if I really
want to be a doctor and take care of people,
I have to understand the context in which people
receive their experience, their health. And so
that's what led me to get an MPH before I went
to med school. So you asked a very direct question,
Megan, and I really, I was very circumcise. I
think it's just in your blood. I think that's
your answer, right? It's just... Okay, clearly
I should have asked you what I should have said
because you nailed it. No, that's awesome. You've
had a great experience. Your parents have really
raised you up to be this person it sounds like.
And I think the next question ties directly into
that. So in your experience, what does this inclusion
and belonging... truly look like in these training
environments, professional workplaces, and how
do these concepts kind of go beyond just diversity
metrics? I love this question and I feel as though
it could be a dissertation and I'm going to do
my best to answer from my heart, which is that
I truly believe that inclusion and belonging
in both our training environments and our professional
workplaces, what it is, is when you never, never
even occurs to you to question that the place
is better for having you. And I think that's
what everybody deserves. I love that. Very simple,
but perfect, right? Yeah, I'm glad that that
landed with you as well. Yeah, I love that. So
what would you say some of the most common or
overlooked barriers to this inclusion and belonging
would be like, especially in these historically
marginalized backgrounds that we have, we face
in the medical education and these especially
early career stages, although it's throughout
your entire career more than likely. Yeah, one
of them, it's such a great question that you're
asking because this, so often when we feel like
we don't belong and with this space doesn't look
like us, what we often don't recognize is how
many other people feel similarly. So for other
reasons, right? And yet they may be struggling
with the same things that we are. And so I think
that one of the barriers is people who feel like
they belong, it never occurs to them that other
people don't. People who don't, they feel that
way for lots of different reasons, including
the way as an adoptive response to how they're
treated, right? and an adaptive response to say
the hidden curriculum, an adaptive response to
even the way the physical planet looks like,
to the way we're treating the patients, the way
we talk about the patients, the way we treat
each other, the way we treat the patients. I
mean, there's lots of different reasons. So I
think that the barriers are many and that they're
a little bit like the first line of the Tolstoy
novel Anna Karenina that all happy families are
alike and all happy families aren't happy in
their own way, which is that when people don't
feel like they belong, that it can be for lots
of different reasons. And no matter what the
reason, we all have a duty to help create an
environment where everybody knows that the place
is better because they are there. Even we don't
believe it fully. Like, you know, there's this
line that I read in this wonderful book called
An American Family by Presidential Medal of Freedom
winner. And famously, he's a Pakistani American
Muslim who's an attorney who who was speaking
at the DNC and he held up his copy of the Constitution.
And so a lot of people know that image, but they
don't know his name. He wrote a wonderful book,
but that is his memoir. But one of the things
that he does throughout it is he quotes different
famous poets. And one of the lines in it that
I believe is from, I think is from Rumi is just
because you're thirsty doesn't mean you can't
be a river for somebody else. And so I feel like
that is something all of us can do. So to your
idea of barriers, And what are some of the barriers?
One of them is we don't even recognize. One of
them is that we don't know that we can be the
change agent. And one of them, there's so many.
And then yet another one is still that we don't
recognize always that the time to make change
was yesterday. But in the line that the next
best time, the best time to plant a tree was
30 years ago, the next best time is today. So
we can do that at every moment is to try to make
our learning environments, our work environments,
our lives, places where people feel like they
belong and that they know that they belong. Megan,
I hope that that even got to what you were trying
to say. Again, another likely answer that you'll
probably be able to distill into something really
brief. No, I love it. I love it. Those are amazing
quotes. And I think that, like you said, many
people kind of might hesitate to act because
they think that maybe It's big for them, right?
To act on these changes is big. And maybe they
think it's beyond their capabilities or people
may not listen. But what are some of these small
but meaningful actions people can take, you know,
that ripple effects, whether they're a colleague,
they're a faculty, they're a trainee, to kind
of just foster these environments, they're gonna
push us forward in these areas. Yeah, so there's
so many, and it's hard to even know where to
start, right? Because I think that, of course,
it starts with a lot of their super foundations,
which is the gosh and matter line that I can't
take credit for that I get from John Bruno, who
is someone who I took meditation and mindfulness
courses with, which is that the best gift you
can give somebody is your attention. So if we
are attentive to the people around us, and we're
mindful of what is their experience. There's
some just even just seeing people matters, right?
Like kind gestures, like moments of kindness,
moments of recognition. And then building upon
that, I mean, really foundational things like
that we address people by their pronouns, you
know, with their proper pronouns, with their
proper honorifics, right? Most of us women who
have the experience in medicine and out of say,
this is like such a low hanging fruit, but that,
you know, when you're giving a talk somewhere,
and it's Dr. Dr. Dr. Eileen. And I say that because
it's men, men, men, and then me. And that just
happened to be at like, you know, presenting
at national conferences with international attendees
and it was Dr. Dr. Dr. And, you know, and it's
actually like, I'm a doctor too. You know, so
what we do is we, you know, we make sure if we're
going to, we're going to air, we're going to
air in the caution of saying, Dr. Graciously,
you did too. My job is also to be gracious and
to say, please call me Eileen, do what you want.
So we can do those things. Others, of course,
also things like asking people what is the best
way to pronounce their name. Those are some pretty
low hanging fruit. Other things that we can do
that start to get it like How do we think about
images, right? That we're going to be using in
our talks, in our built environment, things like
that. And how can we involve people in the built
environment to say, how can we make this better?
And we can also think just really creatively.
So I've talked about some things that are really
foundational. If I may take a moment to say some
things that I had a lot of fun with, if that's
okay? Yeah, absolutely. Oh, thank you. Thank
you. When I was a medical educator, one day I
had the absolute privilege and Joy, that on my
team, I was the only person who, whose first
language, well, that everybody else spoke another
language before they spoke English. And so one
person's household was Spanish speaking, one
was Navajo speaking, one was Farsi from, spoke
Farsi as her first language, one Arabic. And
specifically when I was working with the two
students and one whose first language is Navajo
and one was Spanish. And then one of them had
the little tag on their name badge reel, that
was the physician's oath. And they had gotten
that when they did their white coat ceremony.
And I had seen something in a magazine once that
someone had said, like, oh, they were thinking
about translating the Hippocratic oath into a
different language or something. And so I just
happened to mention, oh, my gosh, I see that
you have that. That's really nice. This is kind
of random. Would that mean anything if that was
in Spanish and Navajo? And both of them were
like, Yeah, that would be really cool. So you
just, you know, what is the small change I can
I can affect in the world, right? Like what is
within my sphere of influence? So in this case,
I was able to partner with one of those learners
who then and then was connected with a deeply,
deeply respected Navajo elder who was an educator
and he translated the physician's oath into Navajo.
And then I submitted it. And so I sent it to
them and said, would you consider this as an
official version? And they wanted to, they said,
we love getting this. We want to confirm it.
And in step I followed up, they weren't able
to find a Navajo language speaker in Switzerland
who could confirm it. But they said, we'll take
it. And so it became officially one of their
versions of the of the Physician's Oath, and
then I collaborated with some students and we
did some successful advocacy so that it was read
in English, Spanish, the Physician's Oath was
read when the students were graduating in English,
Spanish, and Navajo for the first time in the
world. And so this small moment, and then one
of those students, by the time I saw her again,
I mean, I passed in passing, but like, we were
talking and she was now about to do a fellowship.
And I said, you know, I don't know if you ever
knew, but that time in graduation, like when
it was said in English, Spanish and Navajo, and
she said, that is, I did not know that it was,
I said, that was because of you. Like, because
you had said this could be interesting. And I
asked her, I said that and I said, so thank you.
And she said, that was the only graduation of
all my graduations in my life that my mother
understood a single word was that part of it.
Yeah, so we can just choose something small.
So you asked a simple question and I turned it
into a story. But what if we just start with,
what are the levers we have in front of us and
just start to pull them? So it's like when I
was co -chairing our Grand Rounds Steering Committee,
then I was like clowns to the left and we jerked
to the right. Why have we not had more international
medical graduate speakers? Why have we not had
more women? Why have we not had more people who
who were Indigenous Americans. And then we recognized
their expertise. And so we had the most amount
of early career faculty, but also we had learners
presenting for the first time to their faculty.
And we also had the most amount of Native American
speakers, people who were IMGs. And we could
just look in front of us and how can I make it?
How can I try to do better? So don't try to change
somebody else. Try to change myself first. I
don't know. Megan, what else? What? What? How's
that? No, I love it. I think that as you're talking
through it, it resonated a lot with me because
sometimes these things sound trivial to some
of us, you know, that have had these more, I
would say, worldly experiences knowing that for
everybody, English is not their first language,
right? As somebody who English is my first language.
I grew up in a very small Ohio community. These
are things I would have not thought about until
I got out and went to medical school and surrounded
myself with more culturally diverse people. I
would have not thought that it's super important
to have these conversations and start these even,
you know, like having the physician's oath and
something other than English, languages that
are other people's first languages, because one,
their family, it means a lot to them to be able
to hear these things and process them. Words
are very different culturally, right? When you
translate them, things are, sure, they might
know the English version, but in their home language,
you know, it might resonate very different. Yeah,
and these are small steps, right? These aren't
crazy big things that are super hard to do. These
are things that most everyday people can can
kind of attack and get done. And that seems much
more doable than having to make this crazy systemic
change, right? But these are all steps in getting
there. Yeah, I love it. I love that you drew
out the most important parts there, which is
there is there is something all of us can do.
And we can start small and we can just start
with the person in front of us and start with
anything that we have control over. And I don't
mean don't go big. Like I also think that we
should absolutely go big. But we also can just
start with the change that's in front of us,
even if it's small. So I love the way that you
just reflected that so nicely. And I heard you
also say, oh, that you were from this smaller
town in Ohio, and that maybe you wouldn't have
thought of this. Here's the thing. None of us
think about anything we haven't been exposed
to. Right? None of us do. I didn't hear this
from you, but I don't think that we should feel
bad about it. I think instead what we try to
do is we just always just try to do a little
bit better. That's all. Yeah, I love it. The
great ones we know. Yeah, and give grace, my
goodness. Beautifully said. Thank you. As someone
like you who's led these high -level medical
organizations, you're president of AMWA now.
What strategies have you found most effective
in kind of influencing these higher institutional
cultures towards more equity and inclusion? Yeah,
so I feel like that they are the same lessons
that we are employing no matter where we are.
One of them is no matter what is to just do our
best to treat people well, right? Do our best
to be present and to observe and to be aware
of the people around us, what is our effect on
them and how, I'm not gonna say it's like the
Thoreau quote that most men. of course, because
those are those men lead lives of quiet desperation.
I actually don't think that, but I think that
everybody likes to feel recognized. So do our
best to see how can we just acknowledge where
people are, acknowledge what they've been through,
have gratitude that they're with us and be willing
to learn from them constantly and to look at
ways to elevate and amplify them. So I think
working, let's see, I think doing our best I
try to do my best to treat people well and try
to have humility about the times that I don't
and to try to just do better next time. And I
find that those soft skills can go a long way
to change, to be persuasive with individuals
because all organizations are made up of individuals,
right? They're made up of individuals. Culture
starts with each of us. Yeah. And how about you?
How do you affect change? I think it comes down
to something very similar to you. kindness. I
think that just being kind to everybody you're
interacting with and knowing that, I think you
mentioned this before, that everybody has their
own reasons, right? Everybody has their own situations
that they're going through. Everyone has their
thought process that brings them to where they
are. But I think that if you follow it, most
people, if you sit down and have a conversation
and follow it back to your roots, you probably
come to a common moral. Um, and I think that
just displaying kindness, whether you know those
common roots or not is important because I like
to believe that most people's roots are of good
nature. Yeah, I, um, I do too. I do too. Yeah.
Yeah. Beautifully said. Thank you. Go off of
that. Most of this work can be emotionally exhausting
and very slow sometimes to show that visible
change. I know you said you wrote your first
letter at 11, right? It wasn't accepted. When
was your first one, right? It was probably a
long time, right? How do you stay resilient and
hopeful? And what advice do you give to others
kind of navigating this long road of advocacy
and justice in health care? Oh, you know, one
of my wonderful friends, one of the things, he's
a wonderful person. His name is Omar Atik. He
was the former president of the American College
of Physicians when I was the chair of the Board
of Regents. And he taught me a line that I had
never heard before, which is that hope is a discipline.
Yeah, so hope is a discipline. So we have to
cultivate it the same way we cultivate other
things. So that has been something that has been
an important practice to me. And I think it's
been an extension of my gratitude practice. I've
had an intentional gratitude practice for probably
15 years. where every day I reflect on three
or five good things and that I'm grateful for
and they're like big and they're small. So today
I'll be talking and meeting you, right? Yeah,
yeah. And that we hardware our brain, which is
that, I mean, the data shows that this isn't
my idea, right? The data shows this and that
when we intentionally seek out things that make
us grateful, that we are grateful for, I should
say, then it makes us more grateful. And so when
we intentionally seek out things that make us
to help us feel more hopeful and we end up feeling
more hopeful. So that is something that is sort
of like a real foundation. The other is to surround
myself with people who give me hope, who inspire
me. Like I was just thinking about, I recently
found out that one of my cousins who was non
-medical, that after RBG passed away, that my
she started to think about what could she do
to make the world a better place beyond being
a good person, which she is. But then also after
Roe vs. Wade was overturned, then she started
to volunteer for an organization where people
who need abortion care and is not available in
their communities, she hosts them in her home.
Wow. I mean, she hosts strangers in her home
who need abortion care. And I was just so moved
and inspired by that. So I say this is that we
surround ourselves by people who bring us hope
and who inspire us and we can't help but have
that period. So I have those and I'm very lucky
and I hope that everybody... I was gonna say
I hope that everybody... has that, and here's
the thing is they probably do and they may not
always know it. So if we give people the benefit
of doubt and we open up to deeper, deep conversations
and often hard conversations, because sometimes
we're afraid to have hard conversations for good
reasons, but if we have an open mind and we keep
an open heart and that kindness that you talked
about, then I think that we can find out that
people often are, they're doing more good work
than we knew and they're just like right next
to us. and that it can inspire us when things
are hard. And I also think that it's important
for us to take care of ourselves, that I think
it was Audre Lorde who had said that about self
-care is an act of political warfare, some version
of that. And yeah, yeah, do you know that quote?
I bet you'll say it correctly because I think
I butchered it. No, I don't know if you were
wrong or not, but yes, I've heard that before.
Yeah, yeah, so just let's like, we do take care
of ourselves so that we can also be of service
to others. Yeah, those types of things keep me
hopeful and very tactically sometimes what it
means is like, I'm going to step back from some
of the news media for a little bit, and I'm going
to direct my attention toward the things that
I know that provide consolation and solace. Sure,
yeah. So it's kind of wrap that all up. If a
listener walks away from this conversation with
just one step that they can take, no matter how
small, toward creating a more inclusive and welcoming
spaces in their training or workplace, what would
you encourage as this that first step? I think
the first step is to do our best to embrace what
I took note on. says and that many other people
have said too, which is that we are here to dispel
the illusion of our separateness. And when we
believe that and we see that most people are
good and they're just doing their best, then
I think that it can help us see that and to see
the hopefulness so that then we feel strong enough
to take that step. to support the person in front
of us in the way that they would like to receive
support. Love that. It's great. Thank you so
much, Dr. Barrett. This has been an amazing conversation
that has just been full of fruit that I think
is going to be very helpful to the listeners.
Oh, thank you. And I know that we're just about
time, Megan. This is your really, you asked lovely
questions. May I ask you what sustains you? What
sustains me? I think it's that positive outlook
that we kind of talked. I guess you can call
it hope as well. I think that there are a lot
of good things, especially medicine. I think
that there are a lot of good fights that we're
fighting right now as women in medicine and just
in the world. And there's a lot of inequities
that exist and there are a lot of bad things.
But I think that even having the ability to fight
the battles is a blessing. I think that the ability
to have the voice to do these things is great
and I have hope in that. So I think that just
to be on the journey itself is sustaining. Although
it may be exhausting as well. But right, we fill
our cups so we can pour into others. So I just
think the outlook is what helps sustain me overall.
Yeah, the hope and the outlook. I Oh, my goodness.
Thank you. That was thank you for providing me
the gift of that answer. And I would like to
be able to give you credit in the future when
I say we fill our cups so we can fill others.
Yes, that was perfect. Thank you, Megan. Thank
you. I really appreciate this conversation. I
think that it has filled my cup. I think that
just having a good conversation with somebody
who has a good heart when it comes to these things
is just so nice. Well, that's gracious and kind
and generous. And thank you for sharing your
strong and good heart with me today. Absolutely.
So that's a wrap in this episode of Our Voice
is Our Future. We hope today's conversation inspired
you, challenged you, and reminded you of the
power of raising your voice. The fight for equity
doesn't stop here. Join us in the movement. Subscribe
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this episode, share it with someone who needs
to hear it. Until next time, stay bold, stay
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is Our Voice is Our Future.