WEBVTT 00:00:14.900 --> 00:00:17.339 Welcome to Our Voices, Our Future, the podcast 00:00:17.339 --> 00:00:19.480 where we amplify the voices driving change and 00:00:19.480 --> 00:00:21.699 equity within medicine and beyond. Brought to 00:00:21.699 --> 00:00:23.739 you by the Gender Equity Task Force, a committee 00:00:23.739 --> 00:00:25.960 of the American Medical Women's Association. 00:00:26.440 --> 00:00:28.100 We're here to challenge norms, break barriers, 00:00:28.359 --> 00:00:30.699 and ignite conversations that matter. I'm Megan 00:00:30.699 --> 00:00:32.780 Etsy, and in each episode, we'll bring you candid 00:00:32.780 --> 00:00:35.020 discussions with leaders, change makers, and 00:00:35.020 --> 00:00:36.899 advocates working to create a more inclusive 00:00:36.899 --> 00:00:39.539 and just world. No more silence, no more waiting. 00:00:40.320 --> 00:00:42.420 You're listening to Our Voices, Our Future. Let's 00:00:42.420 --> 00:00:44.859 get into it. Today we're welcoming Dr. Karen 00:00:44.859 --> 00:00:47.159 Langer, who is an Ivy League trained MedPeds 00:00:47.159 --> 00:00:49.460 physician coach who has helped over 500 women 00:00:49.460 --> 00:00:52.579 doctors move beyond burnout, guilt, and overwork 00:00:52.579 --> 00:00:55.119 into careers and lives that actually feel good 00:00:55.119 --> 00:00:57.399 to live. Through her coaching and seeing the 00:00:57.399 --> 00:01:00.159 accredited programs, she teaches physicians how 00:01:00.159 --> 00:01:02.539 to renegotiate their time, energy, and worth, 00:01:02.960 --> 00:01:06.079 both internally and institutionally. She's also 00:01:06.079 --> 00:01:08.939 an ambassador for the Dr. Lorna Breen Heroes 00:01:08.939 --> 00:01:11.680 Foundation and a passionate advocate for physician 00:01:11.680 --> 00:01:13.640 mental health and gender equity in medicine. 00:01:14.219 --> 00:01:16.260 Thank you for being with us today, Dr. Leitner. 00:01:16.680 --> 00:01:19.260 Thanks for having me. So to start us off, could 00:01:19.260 --> 00:01:22.000 you just share a bit about your journey in medicine, 00:01:22.120 --> 00:01:24.180 what inspires you to become a physician, and 00:01:24.180 --> 00:01:27.579 ultimately how that path kind of led you to founding 00:01:27.579 --> 00:01:30.599 How to Feel Better for Women physicians? How 00:01:30.599 --> 00:01:34.760 long do you have, Megan? I'll just keep it brief. 00:01:35.040 --> 00:01:37.620 So I, my dad was a doctor and I wasn't one of 00:01:37.620 --> 00:01:39.219 those people who thought I wanted to do it from 00:01:39.219 --> 00:01:42.819 a super early age, but I just loved being able 00:01:42.819 --> 00:01:45.140 to be kind and have empathy and compassionate 00:01:45.140 --> 00:01:46.840 and care for others. That's really what drove 00:01:46.840 --> 00:01:49.200 me into medicine. Plus I enjoyed science and 00:01:49.200 --> 00:01:53.540 learning about the body. But I, so I, you know, 00:01:53.579 --> 00:01:56.140 I found training to be pretty challenging and 00:01:56.140 --> 00:01:58.790 I... I think it's really important to talk about 00:01:58.790 --> 00:02:00.890 mental health issues related to people in training 00:02:00.890 --> 00:02:02.349 because I don't think it's spoken about enough. 00:02:02.370 --> 00:02:06.170 So I definitely had, let's say, untreated or 00:02:06.170 --> 00:02:08.909 undertreated anxiety. And I had ADHD, which I 00:02:08.909 --> 00:02:11.409 didn't know. And all of those things made me 00:02:11.409 --> 00:02:13.550 really struggle internally with my experience 00:02:13.550 --> 00:02:15.449 of going through training. I think I did fine, 00:02:15.469 --> 00:02:17.449 but it did not feel good to me. And it really 00:02:17.449 --> 00:02:19.729 led me to question if I wanted to go into medicine. 00:02:20.169 --> 00:02:23.129 I finally got out and I got a wonderful job working 00:02:23.129 --> 00:02:24.789 at a community health center doing primary care 00:02:24.789 --> 00:02:26.750 med peds, which is really what I wanted to do. 00:02:27.289 --> 00:02:32.169 And I also met my husband and had two children. 00:02:32.490 --> 00:02:34.469 And so the first seven years in primary care 00:02:34.469 --> 00:02:37.490 were just really challenging for me, progressively 00:02:37.490 --> 00:02:39.430 more challenging. As I added children and cut 00:02:39.430 --> 00:02:42.490 back on my time, I was doing sort of like a halftime 00:02:42.490 --> 00:02:45.069 job with a full size panel and trying to take 00:02:45.069 --> 00:02:46.969 care of my family. And I really felt like I was 00:02:46.969 --> 00:02:49.060 drowning. And I was going through burnout, and 00:02:49.060 --> 00:02:51.120 I didn't even know what that was. It wasn't like, 00:02:51.240 --> 00:02:55.080 I don't think I heard that word. So I left my 00:02:55.080 --> 00:02:58.680 job. And for the next seven years, I did a whole 00:02:58.680 --> 00:03:00.659 bunch. I thought it was the job. And I also had 00:03:00.659 --> 00:03:02.900 a lot of shame around my experience. I thought 00:03:02.900 --> 00:03:05.020 I just couldn't handle it. And I just maybe wasn't 00:03:05.020 --> 00:03:08.000 good enough. And then I was exposed to coaching. 00:03:09.210 --> 00:03:11.169 And a lot of other interesting non -clinical 00:03:11.169 --> 00:03:12.710 roles that I did, which we could talk about another 00:03:12.710 --> 00:03:15.270 time. And it just helped me see that so many 00:03:15.270 --> 00:03:18.530 of the reasons I burned out how to do with both 00:03:18.530 --> 00:03:20.830 an imperfect system, but also some characteristics 00:03:20.830 --> 00:03:24.270 that I possessed that I recognize now in so many 00:03:24.270 --> 00:03:26.449 of my coaching clients that once we talk about 00:03:26.449 --> 00:03:29.409 them, do you want to know what they are? Yeah, 00:03:29.530 --> 00:03:33.129 of course. So perfectionism. people -pleasing, 00:03:33.469 --> 00:03:35.849 learned helplessness, which is sort of not recognizing 00:03:35.849 --> 00:03:38.289 where we do maybe have more agency within we 00:03:38.289 --> 00:03:42.830 realize, being excessively self -critical, imposter 00:03:42.830 --> 00:03:44.810 thinking, you know, all these things were the 00:03:44.810 --> 00:03:47.710 perfect storm for me who wanted to be a do -gooder 00:03:47.710 --> 00:03:52.090 and just be and excel at everything. it was impossible. 00:03:52.310 --> 00:03:53.770 You can't. And so I felt like I was failing at 00:03:53.770 --> 00:03:55.729 everything. And so I left. And so I don't want 00:03:55.729 --> 00:03:58.409 people to go through that. So that's coaching 00:03:58.409 --> 00:04:00.610 helped me reframe some of that narrative. And 00:04:00.610 --> 00:04:02.229 now that's what I do with a lot of my clients. 00:04:02.729 --> 00:04:06.490 Sounds amazing. Sounds like a painful but amazing 00:04:06.490 --> 00:04:09.090 journey that you had to go through that to come 00:04:09.090 --> 00:04:12.090 to this. But you're able to take what you went 00:04:12.090 --> 00:04:14.610 through and turn it into light for other people. 00:04:15.389 --> 00:04:17.550 I know that you talk about the invisible curriculum 00:04:17.550 --> 00:04:20.250 of medicine. What are some of the unspoken lessons 00:04:20.250 --> 00:04:22.670 that disproportionately affect women physicians, 00:04:22.750 --> 00:04:25.709 and how do they show up in day -to -day clinical 00:04:25.709 --> 00:04:32.829 life? Well, I think that there is a culture of 00:04:32.829 --> 00:04:36.069 perfectionism. and infallibility. And we're sort 00:04:36.069 --> 00:04:38.730 of taught don't fail instead of here's what you 00:04:38.730 --> 00:04:41.649 do when you do fail. We're taught not to be vulnerable 00:04:41.649 --> 00:04:44.050 when really we need to be vulnerable because 00:04:44.050 --> 00:04:46.149 otherwise if you just take all those emotions 00:04:46.149 --> 00:04:48.790 that you go through doing the challenging work 00:04:48.790 --> 00:04:51.029 we do and you stuff it down and you never show 00:04:51.029 --> 00:04:53.470 any of it and you just act like you got it all, 00:04:54.069 --> 00:04:58.790 it takes a toll on you. So physicians and other 00:04:58.790 --> 00:05:00.970 people in health care have really high rates 00:05:00.970 --> 00:05:04.170 of untreated mental health. comorbid conditions, 00:05:04.250 --> 00:05:06.970 anxiety, depression, suicidal ideation, substance 00:05:06.970 --> 00:05:12.250 use disorders. And I think it's the hidden curriculum 00:05:12.250 --> 00:05:14.730 is part of what drives that because we are message 00:05:14.730 --> 00:05:16.649 we're supposed to be to help, not necessarily 00:05:16.649 --> 00:05:19.230 that we should need help. And there's so much 00:05:19.230 --> 00:05:22.850 stigma about getting that or admitting anything 00:05:22.850 --> 00:05:25.949 less than just sort of this all knowing physician. 00:05:26.050 --> 00:05:28.290 That's that's the biggest ones, I think. What 00:05:28.290 --> 00:05:30.569 do you think? Yeah, no, I think that's good. 00:05:31.199 --> 00:05:35.079 My question, though, is then when we're aware 00:05:35.079 --> 00:05:36.839 of this hidden curriculum and all these things 00:05:36.839 --> 00:05:39.439 that may affect us disproportionately, how do 00:05:39.439 --> 00:05:43.620 we kind of come to not only realization, but 00:05:43.620 --> 00:05:46.779 how do we learn to help ourselves? Yeah. Kind 00:05:46.779 --> 00:05:49.399 of advocate for ourselves in these positions 00:05:49.399 --> 00:05:52.589 that are really difficult to. Mm -hmm. Well, 00:05:52.810 --> 00:05:55.370 I always think we start with looking at how we're 00:05:55.370 --> 00:05:57.110 treating ourselves and talking to ourselves. 00:05:57.250 --> 00:06:00.110 Like if the external messaging is just keep going, 00:06:00.350 --> 00:06:02.629 work 100 hours, don't sleep all night, don't 00:06:02.629 --> 00:06:06.250 go to the bathroom, don't eat, be universally 00:06:06.250 --> 00:06:09.910 accessible. I think the system is so under -resourced 00:06:09.910 --> 00:06:12.509 and so overburdened that you could work. like 00:06:12.509 --> 00:06:15.149 24 hours a day, seven days a week and never stop. 00:06:15.230 --> 00:06:17.550 The system is basically just like work yourself 00:06:17.550 --> 00:06:22.089 to death. That's a real overgeneralization. But 00:06:22.089 --> 00:06:25.769 if you don't set, if you use that inside your 00:06:25.769 --> 00:06:28.509 own brain and you don't stop to eat for two minutes 00:06:28.509 --> 00:06:30.389 and you don't go to the bathroom and you don't 00:06:30.389 --> 00:06:33.629 say, you know what, I can't add on that one other 00:06:33.629 --> 00:06:35.610 patient because then I don't get home and I don't 00:06:35.610 --> 00:06:37.689 see my family and I don't get to take care of 00:06:37.689 --> 00:06:41.870 myself. Like these are all small things that 00:06:41.709 --> 00:06:45.509 we do have control over, but oftentimes we are 00:06:45.509 --> 00:06:49.110 the ones keeping ourselves in this cycle of overworking 00:06:49.110 --> 00:06:52.269 and under caretaking. It's not in any way blame. 00:06:52.870 --> 00:06:55.649 It's sort of like it's expected of us. And we 00:06:55.649 --> 00:06:58.009 don't want to disappoint anyone else. So what 00:06:58.009 --> 00:07:01.730 I talk about so much is that it's not that you 00:07:01.730 --> 00:07:04.470 care less or work less hard, but you have to 00:07:04.470 --> 00:07:06.170 consider yourself in the equation somewhere. 00:07:06.470 --> 00:07:08.920 And what I see my clients all doing is just I 00:07:08.920 --> 00:07:10.800 can't not see that patient. What if my boss thinks 00:07:10.800 --> 00:07:12.879 this? What if my colleagues think that? And it 00:07:12.879 --> 00:07:16.120 leads to people going to work when they are physically 00:07:16.120 --> 00:07:19.040 ill, too ill to work. Our judgment is really 00:07:19.040 --> 00:07:21.759 impaired. I've had clients who had DVTs not wanting 00:07:21.759 --> 00:07:23.660 to get help. I've had someone who is a surgeon 00:07:23.660 --> 00:07:26.379 having pneumonia, but showing up to the OR. So 00:07:26.379 --> 00:07:29.459 being in preterm labor and just being worried 00:07:29.459 --> 00:07:31.759 about what our colleagues will think if we call 00:07:31.759 --> 00:07:39.860 out. So it's like a over fear or maybe fear isn't 00:07:39.860 --> 00:07:41.899 the right word, but over prioritizing the needs 00:07:41.899 --> 00:07:44.620 of everyone else but ourselves. And we really 00:07:44.620 --> 00:07:47.459 can take better care of ourselves than we do. 00:07:47.600 --> 00:07:50.579 We can. We just have to accept all the guilt 00:07:50.579 --> 00:07:52.720 and all the societal messaging that's like, no, 00:07:52.759 --> 00:07:54.420 you don't matter. Just care about everyone else. 00:07:54.500 --> 00:07:57.699 You have to reject that. It's not easy. Partially 00:07:57.699 --> 00:08:01.480 reject it. It's just that we're so worried about 00:08:01.480 --> 00:08:07.089 being perceived as selfish or selfish, that we 00:08:07.089 --> 00:08:09.189 don't take care of ourselves at all. And so it's 00:08:09.189 --> 00:08:11.509 very black and white. So we just have to find 00:08:11.509 --> 00:08:14.689 the areas of gray. So to kind of sim off that 00:08:14.689 --> 00:08:17.430 many women in medicine struggle with this internalized 00:08:17.430 --> 00:08:20.329 perfectionism and that pressure to be good enough. 00:08:20.649 --> 00:08:23.089 Can you speak on how that mindset develops and 00:08:23.089 --> 00:08:25.750 how we can kind of begin to shift away from it? 00:08:27.269 --> 00:08:31.850 Well, we tend to be like very high achieving 00:08:31.850 --> 00:08:35.889 smart women. I'm speaking about the women I know, 00:08:36.549 --> 00:08:42.309 which is many of them. And part of that perfectionism 00:08:42.309 --> 00:08:46.049 leads us to like strive and excel. So we don't 00:08:46.049 --> 00:08:50.809 wanna say, be mediocre, but we take it to an 00:08:50.809 --> 00:08:53.970 extreme. And so the way that shows up, it's actually 00:08:53.970 --> 00:08:56.700 like, the more perfectionist we are oftentimes, 00:08:56.940 --> 00:08:58.860 like the worse we do. So I'll just give you a 00:08:58.860 --> 00:09:01.179 little coaching example. It's like when I see 00:09:01.179 --> 00:09:04.139 a patient and I think, oh, this is so complicated. 00:09:04.440 --> 00:09:08.080 I really need to get this note so right. So I'm 00:09:08.080 --> 00:09:09.940 just going to wait until I have, you know, two 00:09:09.940 --> 00:09:12.299 hours to think about this patient. So I'm not 00:09:12.299 --> 00:09:14.440 going to do it now. We want the note to be so 00:09:14.440 --> 00:09:17.799 good that we don't do it now. And then we like 00:09:17.799 --> 00:09:20.679 avoid because we're like we're like when am i 00:09:20.679 --> 00:09:22.299 going to find the perfect two hours to do it 00:09:22.299 --> 00:09:24.419 so we end up writing it you know significantly 00:09:24.419 --> 00:09:26.379 later or in the middle of the night when we're 00:09:26.379 --> 00:09:28.980 exhausted and the note is not better because 00:09:28.980 --> 00:09:31.100 we've wanted it to be too perfect the note's 00:09:31.100 --> 00:09:34.039 actually worse because it's two weeks later so 00:09:34.039 --> 00:09:36.419 it's just sort of starting to notice like oh 00:09:36.419 --> 00:09:38.519 you know perfect is the enemy of what is it perfect 00:09:38.519 --> 00:09:40.799 is the enemy of done or something like that or 00:09:40.830 --> 00:09:43.490 You know, like good enough is actually and sometimes 00:09:43.490 --> 00:09:45.190 better than when we perfect because the note 00:09:45.190 --> 00:09:47.169 I just write right when I saw the patient is 00:09:47.169 --> 00:09:48.950 almost always better than the note I write three 00:09:48.950 --> 00:09:51.129 weeks later when I'm trying to remember what 00:09:51.129 --> 00:09:52.929 the heck we even spoke about because my brain 00:09:52.929 --> 00:09:55.710 tells me it has to be perfect. So it's just it's 00:09:55.710 --> 00:09:58.470 starting to realize how perfectionism there's 00:09:58.470 --> 00:10:02.200 no such thing as perfect and sometimes the other 00:10:02.200 --> 00:10:04.559 way i really get people thinking about this is 00:10:04.559 --> 00:10:06.320 it's like do you want your notes to be perfect 00:10:06.320 --> 00:10:09.279 and your life to be horrible or could the care 00:10:09.279 --> 00:10:11.700 you give be exceptional but the notes you write 00:10:11.700 --> 00:10:15.000 be decent and your life be more what you want 00:10:15.000 --> 00:10:17.820 it sort of like you get to choose and what choices 00:10:17.820 --> 00:10:19.600 do you want to make and do you like your reasons 00:10:19.600 --> 00:10:22.940 yeah that's great i i think that that's a great 00:10:22.940 --> 00:10:26.940 way to put it who needs do notes need to be exceptional 00:10:26.940 --> 00:10:30.669 i mean quality of life Yeah, and then the other 00:10:30.669 --> 00:10:32.830 thing is when we've made them like so detailed 00:10:32.830 --> 00:10:35.029 and so perfect and we've punctuated everything, 00:10:35.029 --> 00:10:39.669 I kind of joking my clients about and no disrespect 00:10:39.669 --> 00:10:41.350 intended to the New England Journal of Medicine, 00:10:41.429 --> 00:10:44.169 but like. The people reading your notes are also 00:10:44.169 --> 00:10:46.330 overwhelmed and really busy and struggling to 00:10:46.330 --> 00:10:48.309 just get through their day. So they don't want 00:10:48.309 --> 00:10:50.509 to read an encyclopedia and a note. They want 00:10:50.509 --> 00:10:53.590 the most important information for them to abstract 00:10:53.590 --> 00:10:55.490 and like knowledge they need and move on and 00:10:55.490 --> 00:10:58.090 care for the patient. So it's just this culture 00:10:58.090 --> 00:10:59.730 of, you know, other people are going to read 00:10:59.730 --> 00:11:00.970 my notes. They're going to think things about 00:11:00.970 --> 00:11:03.629 me. We also have this a lot of fear about what 00:11:03.629 --> 00:11:05.470 other people think about us, which is normal. 00:11:06.129 --> 00:11:07.830 But sometimes we don't even realize that we are 00:11:07.830 --> 00:11:10.610 just inventing a lot of it. with our own internal 00:11:10.610 --> 00:11:13.230 negative monologue. And so just maybe I'm not 00:11:13.230 --> 00:11:15.169 going to listen so much to that. Maybe that's 00:11:15.169 --> 00:11:19.330 not what I want driving my behaviors. So speaking 00:11:19.330 --> 00:11:23.789 about this late night writing notes and all of 00:11:23.789 --> 00:11:26.730 these needs for perfection, they lead to burnout. 00:11:26.929 --> 00:11:30.340 So this burnout in moral injury is often discussed 00:11:30.340 --> 00:11:33.620 as a systemic issue, but it's also deeply personal. 00:11:34.059 --> 00:11:36.299 How do you help your clients start to untangle 00:11:36.299 --> 00:11:38.960 those forces in their own lives to reclaim their 00:11:38.960 --> 00:11:42.700 sense of value? This is another one that's like 00:11:42.700 --> 00:11:46.379 a longer conversation, but you know, I really 00:11:46.379 --> 00:11:50.220 do believe that the system is the upstream driver 00:11:50.220 --> 00:11:53.210 of burnout. That the system is, let's say, let's 00:11:53.210 --> 00:11:55.529 just, because physicians oftentimes, we blame 00:11:55.529 --> 00:11:56.889 ourselves. When I was going through a burnout, 00:11:56.990 --> 00:11:58.350 I thought it was me. I just thought I couldn't 00:11:58.350 --> 00:12:00.490 handle it. And I had a lot of shame around that. 00:12:00.490 --> 00:12:02.809 And this is not intended to shame anybody because 00:12:02.809 --> 00:12:06.190 most of us are working as hard as we can. And 00:12:06.190 --> 00:12:10.269 it's not about how good we are. But there's excessive 00:12:10.269 --> 00:12:13.090 demands for our time than we can provide. And 00:12:13.090 --> 00:12:15.090 not only that, there's moral injury, which means 00:12:15.090 --> 00:12:19.779 there's limits put on what we are. Let's say 00:12:19.779 --> 00:12:22.279 forced to act in ways that don't align with our 00:12:22.279 --> 00:12:25.659 own morals and values So like having limited 00:12:25.659 --> 00:12:28.100 amount of time with patients and not being able 00:12:28.100 --> 00:12:29.840 to prescribe the medications we want because 00:12:29.840 --> 00:12:32.100 we have to you know prior authorizations and 00:12:32.100 --> 00:12:34.120 all these little like deaths by a thousand cuts, 00:12:34.460 --> 00:12:40.779 so so but within the system right like We can't 00:12:40.779 --> 00:12:42.639 change the whole system today and we definitely 00:12:42.639 --> 00:12:45.320 can't do it if we're burned out. So the way I 00:12:45.320 --> 00:12:47.659 approach this with my clients is coaching is 00:12:47.659 --> 00:12:50.639 where do you have agency? Yes, the system. Let's 00:12:50.639 --> 00:12:52.440 blame it all on the system. Let's say the system 00:12:52.440 --> 00:12:54.340 is horrible. Let's say even though there's a 00:12:54.340 --> 00:12:55.700 lot of wonderful things about our health care 00:12:55.700 --> 00:12:58.230 system in this country. But if it's not the system 00:12:58.230 --> 00:12:59.990 that's going to change for you to feel better, 00:13:00.129 --> 00:13:03.169 what can you do? What agency do you have? And 00:13:03.169 --> 00:13:05.389 then it comes around to, well, what are the things 00:13:05.389 --> 00:13:08.269 I'm doing? For sure, it's paperwork and how much 00:13:08.269 --> 00:13:12.549 we're working. But part of what leads to burnout, 00:13:12.809 --> 00:13:15.649 too, is this belief that I'm going to take care 00:13:15.649 --> 00:13:19.350 of everyone but me. I'm going to. Have unlimited 00:13:19.350 --> 00:13:21.190 access i'm gonna check my truck my you know i'm 00:13:21.190 --> 00:13:23.389 gonna be i'm gonna be so afraid of like missing 00:13:23.389 --> 00:13:24.950 something i'm just gonna work all the time and 00:13:24.950 --> 00:13:27.210 i'm never gonna be present in my own life and 00:13:27.210 --> 00:13:30.190 that's not sustainable for anyone so boundaries 00:13:30.190 --> 00:13:32.850 i think boundaries meaning like what is and isn't 00:13:32.850 --> 00:13:38.190 okay with you i'm going to have to say After 00:13:38.190 --> 00:13:39.889 the third double book on my schedule like you 00:13:39.889 --> 00:13:41.850 can't put anyone else on here that feels really 00:13:41.850 --> 00:13:43.929 bad to us Like what are they gonna think what 00:13:43.929 --> 00:13:45.590 are they gonna say what if my boss this what 00:13:45.590 --> 00:13:49.980 that it's like so we just don't Protect ourselves 00:13:49.980 --> 00:13:51.879 so boundaries for other people time boundaries 00:13:51.879 --> 00:13:53.440 boundaries on our schedule, but also then for 00:13:53.440 --> 00:13:57.080 ourselves we finally get home or Go on vacation 00:13:57.080 --> 00:13:59.159 and we just we don't even use the coverage we 00:13:59.159 --> 00:14:00.740 have or like I'm so worried My colleagues are 00:14:00.740 --> 00:14:02.759 gonna you know, I'm the best person to handle 00:14:02.759 --> 00:14:04.940 that So I'm gonna take phone calls on my vacation 00:14:04.940 --> 00:14:07.019 a very little vacation I get and I'm gonna check 00:14:07.019 --> 00:14:09.740 my inbox and I'm and so again We are we are violating 00:14:09.740 --> 00:14:12.639 our own boundaries and it's it's leading us closer 00:14:12.639 --> 00:14:15.100 and closer to burnout so I tell people like If 00:14:15.100 --> 00:14:17.019 you want to be there for your patients because 00:14:17.019 --> 00:14:19.840 you care about them so much, you have to dial 00:14:19.840 --> 00:14:23.360 back. You have to take care of yourself, actually, 00:14:23.720 --> 00:14:26.299 because if you overwork and over care and over 00:14:26.299 --> 00:14:28.000 give, then you burn out and leave. And then they're 00:14:28.000 --> 00:14:31.000 in no better. You know, then that's the worst 00:14:31.000 --> 00:14:33.220 case scenario, which is pretty much what I did. 00:14:33.679 --> 00:14:35.909 I don't want other people to do that. So it's 00:14:35.909 --> 00:14:38.029 a reverse. It's sort of like, yes, you have to 00:14:38.029 --> 00:14:39.590 worry about yourself, protect yourself, take 00:14:39.590 --> 00:14:42.009 care of yourself. But in doing that, you are 00:14:42.009 --> 00:14:43.610 taking care of them because you're going to still 00:14:43.610 --> 00:14:46.690 be around to help them. And I had a client recently. 00:14:48.090 --> 00:14:51.690 She's a subspecialist in a very male -dominated 00:14:51.690 --> 00:14:55.389 field. And she had so much reluctance to let 00:14:55.389 --> 00:14:57.110 go of things and just not respond to things. 00:14:57.129 --> 00:14:59.409 So she was always working. And in the one week, 00:14:59.450 --> 00:15:01.870 she finally didn't. We worked so hard. OK, I'm 00:15:01.870 --> 00:15:06.220 just not going to. jump in to save everybody 00:15:06.220 --> 00:15:09.360 or help everybody. She felt so much better the 00:15:09.360 --> 00:15:10.820 next week when she actually went back to work. 00:15:11.000 --> 00:15:13.399 She's like, I like my job so much better. I actually 00:15:13.399 --> 00:15:16.879 felt so much better able to do it because I actually 00:15:16.879 --> 00:15:19.120 rested. So again, it's like one of those errors. 00:15:19.240 --> 00:15:20.659 I think if I work all the time, I'm going to 00:15:20.659 --> 00:15:23.620 do a better job at my job. Maybe if I don't work 00:15:23.620 --> 00:15:26.120 so hard, I'll be more present and more rested 00:15:26.120 --> 00:15:31.399 and more able to do what's needed of me. But 00:15:31.399 --> 00:15:34.440 we also have to advocate against, you know, just 00:15:34.440 --> 00:15:37.399 the excessive hours of work and the inadequate 00:15:37.399 --> 00:15:40.019 support and all these things. We have to ask 00:15:40.019 --> 00:15:44.620 for what we need, which is not easy. Yeah. So 00:15:44.620 --> 00:15:46.919 really, I feel like you have to fill your cup 00:15:46.919 --> 00:15:48.940 before you pour into others, right? Like it's 00:15:48.940 --> 00:15:51.639 so we say that and we preach that to other people. 00:15:51.879 --> 00:15:56.240 But I think no one does. No one does. Well, because 00:15:56.240 --> 00:15:58.799 it doesn't feel safe. Right. We're like, but 00:15:58.799 --> 00:16:00.740 what is everyone going to think of me if I do 00:16:00.740 --> 00:16:03.919 that? Yeah. Like, OK, but what if we all did 00:16:03.919 --> 00:16:06.299 it? Then, you know, that's how we make change. 00:16:06.480 --> 00:16:08.500 We have to humanize like I spend so much time 00:16:08.500 --> 00:16:10.519 talking about. We are actually human beings who 00:16:10.519 --> 00:16:13.299 need food and medical care and like maternity 00:16:13.299 --> 00:16:16.259 leave. Why do we see ourselves as so different? 00:16:17.419 --> 00:16:20.419 I was watching that. And personally, this morning, 00:16:20.419 --> 00:16:23.360 I was like, you know, when I was like pre -med 00:16:23.360 --> 00:16:25.299 or whatever, I looked up to doctors as if they 00:16:25.299 --> 00:16:28.529 were these people who were like, superhuman and 00:16:28.529 --> 00:16:31.450 just beyond, you know, and the more that the 00:16:31.450 --> 00:16:33.830 closer I get to being a doctor, I realized, like, 00:16:33.830 --> 00:16:36.169 these are actually humans, you know, we are just 00:16:36.169 --> 00:16:41.309 as human as the next person. And yeah, we need 00:16:41.309 --> 00:16:43.870 to take care of ourselves as well. Right? Yeah. 00:16:44.269 --> 00:16:46.789 We make mistakes, just like anyone does. We drop 00:16:46.789 --> 00:16:49.070 the ball, we screw things up. And it's like, 00:16:49.350 --> 00:16:51.549 and then we apologize and we can move on. It's 00:16:51.549 --> 00:16:54.289 so hard for us to admit to that. We don't we're 00:16:54.289 --> 00:16:57.549 not really taught how to Manage that at least 00:16:57.549 --> 00:16:59.230 I wasn't in my training. I don't know if you've 00:16:59.230 --> 00:17:00.889 learned anything about what do you do when you've 00:17:00.889 --> 00:17:03.429 made a mistake? What do you do if there is a 00:17:03.429 --> 00:17:05.910 complaint or a lawsuit? Like how do you handle 00:17:05.910 --> 00:17:08.210 that? We usually just think well, it's not gonna 00:17:08.210 --> 00:17:10.109 happen to me because I'm that only happens like 00:17:10.109 --> 00:17:15.150 bad doctors like no so I also tend to say like 00:17:15.150 --> 00:17:18.609 They teach us do no harm. I wish they taught 00:17:18.609 --> 00:17:21.970 us do no intentional harm Because we're gonna 00:17:21.970 --> 00:17:25.309 do harm because that's just the nature of being 00:17:25.309 --> 00:17:29.420 human Yeah. So then what? Like teach us how to 00:17:29.420 --> 00:17:32.119 move past it and learn from it instead of just 00:17:32.119 --> 00:17:34.220 beating ourselves up and like hiding under our 00:17:34.220 --> 00:17:38.579 beds. Yeah. Yeah. I think that maybe another 00:17:38.579 --> 00:17:41.880 player to the burnout is what is often written 00:17:41.880 --> 00:17:44.799 and spoken about is the gender pay gap in medicine. 00:17:46.359 --> 00:17:51.259 Not just as numbers that are an issue but a reflection 00:17:51.259 --> 00:17:54.839 of deeper systemic inequities. What do you think 00:17:54.839 --> 00:17:57.480 needs to change, both culturally, institutionally? 00:17:57.539 --> 00:17:59.579 How do we address this thing that has gone on 00:17:59.579 --> 00:18:02.259 for so long and is actually still prevalent today? 00:18:03.819 --> 00:18:06.680 So I have some ideas. I don't have a solution. 00:18:06.799 --> 00:18:09.980 I wish I did. But I mean, I think the movement 00:18:09.980 --> 00:18:13.019 towards pay transparency is really huge. If no 00:18:13.019 --> 00:18:15.680 one's looking at how many people are being paid, 00:18:15.900 --> 00:18:17.920 then inevitably it shows up again and again and 00:18:17.920 --> 00:18:20.640 again. And so there have been actions taken in 00:18:20.640 --> 00:18:24.119 various states to promote full transparency. 00:18:26.720 --> 00:18:29.119 And even laws, like I know in Massachusetts, 00:18:30.539 --> 00:18:32.900 You're not allowed to ask someone what their 00:18:32.900 --> 00:18:35.500 current salary is because we're just propagating, 00:18:35.500 --> 00:18:37.380 you know underpayment from job to job to job. 00:18:37.380 --> 00:18:40.930 So there are You know systemic things so someone 00:18:40.930 --> 00:18:43.930 looking at how much people are paid people in 00:18:43.930 --> 00:18:46.410 leadership like all those department chairs being 00:18:46.410 --> 00:18:49.769 held accountable so like show like look at your 00:18:49.769 --> 00:18:52.190 staff how much you're paying them. Are you taking 00:18:52.190 --> 00:18:56.369 action to to move towards parity and equity right 00:18:56.369 --> 00:18:58.329 and maybe you don't get your funding if you're 00:18:58.329 --> 00:19:00.509 not doing that like that's for sure not happening 00:19:00.509 --> 00:19:02.589 in many places and I think that would really 00:19:02.589 --> 00:19:07.150 help on a systemic or structural level. The thing 00:19:07.150 --> 00:19:10.740 that I. think is really interesting is that, 00:19:10.859 --> 00:19:12.759 you know how the same way we were talking about 00:19:12.759 --> 00:19:15.700 if burnout, if burnout is a systemic problem, 00:19:15.740 --> 00:19:17.500 but there's a little bit of control that the 00:19:17.500 --> 00:19:20.099 individual has, pay equity is a systemic problem, 00:19:20.099 --> 00:19:23.460 but there really is power that the individual 00:19:23.460 --> 00:19:26.779 has. And that's what I love helping my clients 00:19:26.779 --> 00:19:30.359 do because if you don't even, first of all, if 00:19:30.359 --> 00:19:32.960 you don't believe that pay inequity affects you. 00:19:33.039 --> 00:19:35.220 Then you're not gonna do anything about it. And 00:19:35.220 --> 00:19:37.240 a lot of women, we don't believe it. We think, 00:19:37.480 --> 00:19:39.859 oh, but not where I work. They told me this contract 00:19:39.859 --> 00:19:42.559 wasn't negotiable. And so one of the things I 00:19:42.559 --> 00:19:44.599 do in my program is I give everyone MDMA data 00:19:44.599 --> 00:19:46.480 so we can at least look at the facts. Like where 00:19:46.480 --> 00:19:51.700 are you paid compared to your geographic and 00:19:51.700 --> 00:19:54.359 what kind of. Practice setting are you in but 00:19:54.359 --> 00:19:56.539 even with that even when I'm showing someone? 00:19:56.599 --> 00:19:58.660 Okay, here we go. You're an amazing physician 00:19:58.660 --> 00:20:01.019 You were paid in the tenth percentile for your 00:20:01.019 --> 00:20:02.619 let's say you're an oncologist ten percentile 00:20:02.619 --> 00:20:04.460 So ninety percent of oncologists working in the 00:20:04.460 --> 00:20:07.039 same kind of place as you with the same Credentials 00:20:07.039 --> 00:20:10.200 as you are getting paid more than you then suddenly 00:20:10.200 --> 00:20:13.799 we're faced with like Well women aren't supposed 00:20:13.799 --> 00:20:16.069 to ask for money we're not supposed to ask for 00:20:16.069 --> 00:20:18.109 anything we might feel greedy we might look greedy 00:20:18.109 --> 00:20:19.990 they might have thoughts about me they might 00:20:19.990 --> 00:20:22.690 what are they gonna think about me and maybe 00:20:22.690 --> 00:20:24.349 i don't care about money so much i'm not supposed 00:20:24.349 --> 00:20:26.710 to care about money because i'm just you know 00:20:26.710 --> 00:20:29.470 society tells women they're not capable of managing 00:20:29.470 --> 00:20:33.230 money and there's been a lot of um historical 00:20:33.230 --> 00:20:35.269 basis for that like we weren't even allowed to 00:20:35.269 --> 00:20:38.230 have credit cards without our husband's co -signature 00:20:38.230 --> 00:20:42.730 before 1974 until 1974. So it's only like the 00:20:42.730 --> 00:20:46.789 last 50 years that women are even felt to be 00:20:46.789 --> 00:20:48.309 capable of like having their own money without 00:20:48.309 --> 00:20:50.450 a man supervising them. So all that filters into 00:20:50.450 --> 00:20:53.869 our psyche. So what I see in my clients is they 00:20:53.869 --> 00:20:55.309 don't actually know how much they're supposed 00:20:55.309 --> 00:20:57.710 to be paid. They don't realize that it's a fair 00:20:57.710 --> 00:21:01.769 market value for a role. they don't realize that 00:21:01.769 --> 00:21:04.130 when you negotiate, you can do it in a collaborative 00:21:04.130 --> 00:21:06.490 way. So you're not going to get fired for asking 00:21:06.490 --> 00:21:08.430 for more. And that you're expected to ask for 00:21:08.430 --> 00:21:10.150 more, that most places are not giving you their 00:21:10.150 --> 00:21:12.349 best offer right off the table. So there's like 00:21:12.349 --> 00:21:14.269 a whole, you need a different mindset when you 00:21:14.269 --> 00:21:17.569 go to negotiate. You have to believe in yourself 00:21:17.569 --> 00:21:20.130 and the imposter thinking. So many of us think, 00:21:20.529 --> 00:21:23.769 well, I just, I'm not that great. So I just be 00:21:23.769 --> 00:21:26.609 happy to have a job. And we always talk about, 00:21:26.750 --> 00:21:30.410 you know, like you're J -Lo. Like you're daily 00:21:30.410 --> 00:21:32.569 like you are the asset and you know you go from 00:21:32.569 --> 00:21:35.369 residency where you're really not you know you're 00:21:35.369 --> 00:21:37.450 underpaid you have no control you can't say anything 00:21:37.450 --> 00:21:39.730 about your schedule or your vacation or what 00:21:39.730 --> 00:21:41.789 rotations you do or how much you're made you 00:21:41.789 --> 00:21:44.210 have no agency suddenly now you're looking at 00:21:44.210 --> 00:21:46.599 your first job And you're still in the mindset, 00:21:46.680 --> 00:21:48.440 oh, I should just take what they give me. I should 00:21:48.440 --> 00:21:50.980 just take what's on the menu. And that's a huge 00:21:50.980 --> 00:21:53.819 mistake, because even if you don't negotiate 00:21:53.819 --> 00:21:56.619 $5 ,000 at your first job, you know this already. 00:21:56.819 --> 00:21:58.779 But anyone listening who's like, wait, what? 00:21:58.819 --> 00:22:00.160 What is she talking about? I'm supposed to ask 00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:02.319 for more? I didn't know this. No one taught me 00:22:02.319 --> 00:22:06.480 that. $5 ,000 for your first salary negotiation 00:22:06.480 --> 00:22:08.779 translates into $500 ,000 over the course of 00:22:08.779 --> 00:22:13.019 your career. But we have to take an action. And 00:22:13.019 --> 00:22:15.319 then there's all this like, well, but. Sometimes 00:22:15.319 --> 00:22:17.420 women are penalized or what if I don't get the 00:22:17.420 --> 00:22:20.940 job? And there's a lot of fear, fear about being 00:22:20.940 --> 00:22:23.299 perceived in a certain way and magical thinking 00:22:23.299 --> 00:22:25.519 like I know what the person's thoughts are. I'm 00:22:25.519 --> 00:22:26.940 trying to control that person's thoughts. I don't 00:22:26.940 --> 00:22:28.720 want them to think this about me, so I'm not 00:22:28.720 --> 00:22:31.500 gonna ask. It gets very confusing in our minds. 00:22:31.960 --> 00:22:33.599 And I recently was even just coaching someone 00:22:33.599 --> 00:22:36.779 and she said, well, we found out that the job 00:22:36.779 --> 00:22:39.319 she was trying to take, we could see how much 00:22:39.319 --> 00:22:41.180 the person who had had it previously was paid. 00:22:41.839 --> 00:22:43.960 And they were offering her lower than that. And 00:22:43.960 --> 00:22:47.200 so I was saying, well, the value for this role, 00:22:47.440 --> 00:22:48.900 that's what they're paying for, the role, not 00:22:48.900 --> 00:22:51.500 you. Not are you, Megan, blah, blah, blah. But 00:22:51.500 --> 00:22:54.859 is this role worth this amount? She was like, 00:22:54.920 --> 00:22:57.039 well, I'm worried if I ask for more, then I'm 00:22:57.039 --> 00:23:00.200 going to have to do a better job. Like, I don't 00:23:00.200 --> 00:23:01.539 want to put that kind of pressure on myself. 00:23:01.599 --> 00:23:04.619 And I'm like, there's no. correlation between 00:23:04.619 --> 00:23:06.960 how good a job you do and how much you get paid, 00:23:07.500 --> 00:23:09.980 like when you're taking a job that's been offered 00:23:09.980 --> 00:23:12.400 to you. And also, how would they even measure? 00:23:12.640 --> 00:23:17.259 So it was just a very strange way of thinking 00:23:17.259 --> 00:23:19.460 that, and someone else told me recently her contract 00:23:19.460 --> 00:23:20.720 was coming up again, and she's like, I don't 00:23:20.720 --> 00:23:22.539 think I'm that great sometimes, so I just don't 00:23:22.539 --> 00:23:24.460 know if I should ask for more. Those thoughts 00:23:24.460 --> 00:23:27.210 really hurt us. Who's talking about that? If 00:23:27.210 --> 00:23:29.690 we don't change our mindset about our value and 00:23:29.690 --> 00:23:31.670 then society is messaging to us that we are less 00:23:31.670 --> 00:23:34.009 valuable because we're seeing white men and all 00:23:34.009 --> 00:23:37.089 the pictures and all the hallways of our institutions 00:23:37.089 --> 00:23:39.890 and then that we've been paid less and we're 00:23:39.890 --> 00:23:41.930 getting first named and we're getting thought 00:23:41.930 --> 00:23:43.650 that we're the nurse. And so all these things 00:23:43.650 --> 00:23:47.390 contribute to why we don't embrace fully our 00:23:47.390 --> 00:23:50.650 power and our agency and getting paid fairly. 00:23:52.650 --> 00:23:54.170 I don't even know what your question was anymore, 00:23:54.190 --> 00:23:56.690 but I'm just so passionate. There is stuff you, 00:23:56.730 --> 00:23:59.730 the individual, can do. And if each of us does 00:23:59.730 --> 00:24:01.910 the things that we can do, and I also just want 00:24:01.910 --> 00:24:05.329 to mention that it's not even all the same for 00:24:05.329 --> 00:24:07.049 all women, because if you're a woman of color, 00:24:07.289 --> 00:24:09.349 the pay gap is even higher. So there are a lot 00:24:09.349 --> 00:24:13.230 of societal and systemic factors influencing 00:24:13.230 --> 00:24:15.789 what we can and can't ask for and if we're safe. 00:24:16.009 --> 00:24:18.150 And I don't want to be sounding like it's our 00:24:18.150 --> 00:24:20.150 fault that we're not paid more, because it's 00:24:20.150 --> 00:24:22.930 definitely not our fault. But I also think we 00:24:22.930 --> 00:24:25.650 have more agency than we realize if we just believed 00:24:25.650 --> 00:24:27.410 in ourselves more or had someone else believing 00:24:27.410 --> 00:24:30.410 in us. And that's what I love to do with my clients 00:24:30.410 --> 00:24:32.930 because I just have infinite belief in them when 00:24:32.930 --> 00:24:36.049 they don't have it in themselves. So to kind 00:24:36.049 --> 00:24:38.650 of stem from that, there's often this fear of 00:24:38.650 --> 00:24:42.250 advocating for ourselves, right? Or seen as selfish 00:24:42.250 --> 00:24:45.849 or demanding. How do you reframe this idea? And 00:24:45.849 --> 00:24:48.089 what tools do you recommend for women to kind 00:24:48.089 --> 00:24:50.750 of advocate for themselves without this guilt 00:24:50.750 --> 00:24:54.779 attached to it? Well, there's studies that show 00:24:54.779 --> 00:24:57.079 that women are so much better at advocating for 00:24:57.079 --> 00:24:59.279 other women or negotiating for other people than 00:24:59.279 --> 00:25:01.279 they are for themselves. So a lot of times it's 00:25:01.279 --> 00:25:03.539 just looking at, okay, what are you actually 00:25:03.539 --> 00:25:05.400 thinking about this negotiation? Oh, interesting. 00:25:05.539 --> 00:25:08.759 So you think that they will think you're greedy. 00:25:08.900 --> 00:25:10.740 Well, here's all this evidence that shows that 00:25:10.740 --> 00:25:13.700 that's not true, that most people do negotiate 00:25:13.700 --> 00:25:17.019 a first offer, but also breaking down, how would 00:25:17.019 --> 00:25:19.680 you even know if they thought that? Like they 00:25:19.680 --> 00:25:21.000 might think you're greedy right now. Like we 00:25:21.000 --> 00:25:23.359 don't read other people's thoughts. Are you greedy? 00:25:23.759 --> 00:25:25.420 You know, and where does that idea come from? 00:25:26.059 --> 00:25:27.980 Let's get so curious about why would you even 00:25:27.980 --> 00:25:29.880 think that? So what we're saying, like if your 00:25:29.880 --> 00:25:31.980 friend went to a job and they gave her, and I 00:25:31.980 --> 00:25:34.859 showed you, this is the median salary for this 00:25:34.859 --> 00:25:37.400 position. And they're offering significantly 00:25:37.400 --> 00:25:39.660 less than that. And your friend asked for more. 00:25:40.079 --> 00:25:42.400 Would you say to her, wow, that's so greedy? 00:25:43.119 --> 00:25:45.119 And so much of the time when we think of it that 00:25:45.119 --> 00:25:47.700 way, we're like, no, I would say you are amazing. 00:25:48.299 --> 00:25:52.039 sure at least make what all the men or the other 00:25:52.039 --> 00:25:54.539 people, the other candidates are making. So it's 00:25:54.539 --> 00:25:56.740 just sort of noticing and having an awareness 00:25:56.740 --> 00:25:59.440 of how you're thinking about things and seeing 00:25:59.440 --> 00:26:02.440 if that helps you. But you also really need to 00:26:02.440 --> 00:26:05.539 have a compelling why. when you're going to do 00:26:05.539 --> 00:26:07.799 something scary like negotiate so it's like why 00:26:07.799 --> 00:26:09.660 do you even want this money like what would what 00:26:09.660 --> 00:26:11.779 are you going to do with it is this going to 00:26:11.779 --> 00:26:13.700 help you retire is this going to fund your kids 00:26:13.700 --> 00:26:15.680 education is this going to help you take care 00:26:15.680 --> 00:26:18.779 of an aging parent like are we donating to charity 00:26:18.779 --> 00:26:21.599 like what are we doing with this um and a lot 00:26:21.599 --> 00:26:23.819 of it is just education i just think people haven't 00:26:23.819 --> 00:26:25.640 been taught and they don't realize and we think 00:26:25.640 --> 00:26:28.849 somehow that if i negotiate a higher starting 00:26:28.849 --> 00:26:31.390 salary that it's coming out of the mouths of 00:26:31.390 --> 00:26:33.250 patients somehow, right? So we don't even understand 00:26:33.250 --> 00:26:38.210 the finances of how budgets are created. But 00:26:38.210 --> 00:26:44.529 I think what you asked me was, how do I help 00:26:44.529 --> 00:26:46.569 people not feel like advocating for themselves 00:26:46.569 --> 00:26:55.450 is selfish? Maybe it is selfish. And maybe that's 00:26:55.450 --> 00:26:58.029 OK sometimes. Who is going to be looking out 00:26:58.029 --> 00:27:02.250 for you if it's not you? So I don't like that 00:27:02.250 --> 00:27:04.369 word because it has a real negative connotation. 00:27:04.730 --> 00:27:07.690 But I think it's sort of like we're so worried 00:27:07.690 --> 00:27:10.589 about seeming full of ourselves and being arrogant 00:27:10.589 --> 00:27:14.289 that we don't even allow ourselves to take any 00:27:14.289 --> 00:27:16.470 pride in any of our accomplishments. Let's just 00:27:16.470 --> 00:27:19.660 find a happy medium. You know, maybe it's selfish 00:27:19.660 --> 00:27:22.599 light when you negotiate, but maybe you actually 00:27:22.599 --> 00:27:26.440 deserve to be paid fairly for the work you do. 00:27:27.059 --> 00:27:30.740 Maybe that. Yeah, I love that. So kind of to 00:27:30.740 --> 00:27:32.660 just bring it all together, for women physicians, 00:27:32.880 --> 00:27:34.960 especially those maybe early in their careers, 00:27:35.420 --> 00:27:37.579 who are feeling overwhelmed, undervalued, or 00:27:37.579 --> 00:27:40.720 unsure where to begin with themselves, what advice 00:27:40.720 --> 00:27:43.059 would you offer as they start to reclaim their 00:27:43.059 --> 00:27:48.609 time, voice, and worth overall? Well, this might 00:27:48.609 --> 00:27:50.210 not be what you think I would say but I think 00:27:50.210 --> 00:27:53.230 the most important lesson for us to start learning 00:27:53.230 --> 00:27:55.890 from a really early age is self -compassion. 00:27:56.190 --> 00:27:58.130 What does that mean? It's just how to be kind 00:27:58.130 --> 00:28:00.549 to yourself and how to be there for yourself 00:28:00.549 --> 00:28:03.069 because it is not an easy road to go into medicine 00:28:03.069 --> 00:28:06.910 and we are, you know, exposed to a lot of traumatic, 00:28:07.170 --> 00:28:08.910 you know, we experience a lot of trauma actually 00:28:08.910 --> 00:28:10.950 in training and working with people who are so 00:28:10.950 --> 00:28:14.970 sick and needy and if we If we're not careful, 00:28:15.750 --> 00:28:18.930 our default is to just be super mean to ourselves. 00:28:19.130 --> 00:28:20.769 Think we're the only ones going through what 00:28:20.769 --> 00:28:22.769 we're going through. And the truth is, that's 00:28:22.769 --> 00:28:24.829 not it at all. So self -compassion is like talking 00:28:24.829 --> 00:28:26.690 yourself in a kind way like you would a friend. 00:28:27.560 --> 00:28:29.720 And it doesn't mean just being a slacker and 00:28:29.720 --> 00:28:31.140 being like, it's fine, you failed your boards, 00:28:31.240 --> 00:28:32.900 it's totally fine, don't worry about it. It's 00:28:32.900 --> 00:28:34.799 not fine, right? But what we tend to say is like, 00:28:35.000 --> 00:28:37.000 you idiot, what's wrong with you? Why did you 00:28:37.000 --> 00:28:39.359 do that? Everyone's gonna think you're so, you 00:28:39.359 --> 00:28:41.200 shouldn't have even been a doctor, like no one's 00:28:41.200 --> 00:28:43.000 gonna hire you and you're gonna live under a 00:28:43.000 --> 00:28:46.359 bridge, right? So mean. Instead of, you know 00:28:46.359 --> 00:28:49.710 what, you tried your best, well. hit the drawing 00:28:49.710 --> 00:28:51.789 board again this is really important to you you 00:28:51.789 --> 00:28:53.569 know there's lots of people that this happens 00:28:53.569 --> 00:28:55.410 to too it's not just you this is part of being 00:28:55.410 --> 00:28:57.630 human this goes back to the messy human part 00:28:57.630 --> 00:29:00.150 of this talk it's like humans are messy and they 00:29:00.150 --> 00:29:02.069 make mistakes and they fail sometimes and what 00:29:02.069 --> 00:29:05.049 if that's okay so just starting to have that 00:29:05.049 --> 00:29:07.410 kind of relationship with yourself it's not easy 00:29:07.410 --> 00:29:10.309 even just to notice oh i'm i'm not being very 00:29:10.309 --> 00:29:12.750 nice to myself when i say that i used to go through 00:29:12.750 --> 00:29:15.369 my day being like I'm really bad at the exam. 00:29:15.609 --> 00:29:17.369 My notes aren't as good as everyone else's. Like 00:29:17.369 --> 00:29:19.589 I would just constantly, it was just like so 00:29:19.589 --> 00:29:22.829 many mean things. And now I am much more aware 00:29:22.829 --> 00:29:24.650 of that. And you can even say, you know, that's 00:29:24.650 --> 00:29:27.230 not really very nice when you say that to me, 00:29:27.650 --> 00:29:29.849 right? Ouch, that hurts when you tell me like, 00:29:30.329 --> 00:29:34.910 I, I don't know. I should never have become a 00:29:34.910 --> 00:29:38.049 surgeon. It's not nice. So how else do I want 00:29:38.049 --> 00:29:40.150 to relate to myself so I help get myself through 00:29:40.150 --> 00:29:42.930 the hardest parts? And how do I find my community? 00:29:43.029 --> 00:29:46.390 How do I find other people? who are open to being 00:29:46.390 --> 00:29:48.250 vulnerable and really talking about what it's 00:29:48.250 --> 00:29:50.349 like to do what we do, because in my community, 00:29:50.529 --> 00:29:52.089 so much of the time, people say, I thought it 00:29:52.089 --> 00:29:54.910 was just me. I had no idea. I had no idea other 00:29:54.910 --> 00:29:57.309 people felt insecure sometimes, even people who 00:29:57.309 --> 00:30:00.009 are like head of departments. And I've been doing 00:30:00.009 --> 00:30:02.710 it for 30 years. They still think sometimes maybe 00:30:02.710 --> 00:30:05.329 I don't deserve to be here, or I feel like I'm 00:30:05.329 --> 00:30:07.269 faking it. It's like, it's good to know. It's 00:30:07.269 --> 00:30:10.349 not just us. It's human brains. Yeah, but it 00:30:10.349 --> 00:30:12.390 all starts with somebody saying something, right? 00:30:12.730 --> 00:30:15.630 Somebody has to say something first to get that 00:30:15.630 --> 00:30:18.890 conversation started. Yeah. Well, thank you so 00:30:18.890 --> 00:30:20.470 much, Dr. Lightner, for being here tonight. This 00:30:20.470 --> 00:30:22.589 has been an incredible conversation. I've had 00:30:22.589 --> 00:30:26.029 a great time. Me too. Thanks for having me. Yeah. 00:30:26.470 --> 00:30:28.289 So that's a wrap on this episode of Our Voice 00:30:28.289 --> 00:30:30.710 is Our Future. We hope today's conversation inspired 00:30:30.710 --> 00:30:33.309 you, challenged you, and reminded you of the 00:30:33.309 --> 00:30:35.549 power of raising your voice. The fight for equity 00:30:35.549 --> 00:30:38.069 doesn't stop here. Join us in the movement. Subscribe 00:30:38.069 --> 00:30:39.809 wherever you get your podcasts. And if you love 00:30:39.809 --> 00:30:41.670 this episode, share it with someone new who needs 00:30:41.670 --> 00:30:44.349 to hear it. Until next time, stay bold, stay 00:30:44.349 --> 00:30:46.509 vocal and keep the conversation going. This is 00:30:46.509 --> 00:30:47.490 Our Voices, Our Future.