Premier League champions 2016, the amazing Leicester
City! Do you not remember when Leicester won
the Premier League? If you knew nothing else,
that would be enough. Fairy tales, first league
titles, doubles, trebles, 100 -point seasons,
goal difference deciders and the Invincibles.
But it's not just about the winners. It's relegation
dogfights, 11 -point seasons, top four races,
and the hunt for European places. Foreign influence,
oligarchs, managers, players. There's always
controversy. Slips, missed drug tests, karate
kicks, managerial meltdowns, dodgy lasagnas,
VAR. It's midweek games, the Christmas fixtures,
and the run-in. Superstars and legends at every
turn. Playing in some of the greatest arenas,
Anfield, St James' Park and the Theatre of Dreams.
Simply put, it's the best league in the world
and it's back. It's time for another edition
of the Premier League. And this is the Sporting
Almanac Podcast. That sums it all up. Good afternoon,
mate. Afternoon, Ben. How are you? I'm very good,
thanks. Really looking forward to this week for
very obvious reasons. Yeah, I can't imagine why.
It's almost like this is your favourite week
of the year. Yeah, the build -up, the community
shield. It's just exciting. It is exciting, and
it's a weird old feeling when you go into it
on the back of... It's something I've never experienced
before. Obviously, as a Liverpool fan... Liverpool
are the reigning champions. I've been in a situation
where Liverpool are the reigning champions before,
but that was a really weird time, if you remember.
It was COVID and now, I don't know, it's normality
and I don't know what to think. Are we going
to win it again? What do you reckon, Ben? You
have an excellent chance. As do you. When Arsenal
go to Anfield, they are going to play some terrorismo
football. It's going to be, what we're going
to do to you is diabolical. Against the decency
of the game. What would Johan Cruyff say? Yeah,
it's going to be a clash of styles between our
two clubs. And I can't imagine City are going
to be as shit as they were. No. Yeah, lots to
look forward to. Chelsea also look good. They'll
be tired. Although they flatter to deceive. I
mean, they are world champions, but at what cost,
Ben? At what cost? We'll find out. World champions
or shambles. That's a very good point. That is
a very good point, though, about those that competed
or went deep in the Club World Cup have effectively
not had a summer holiday. So it could be a factor.
We'll see. But we'll see. Anyway. But yeah, the
Premier League. I mean, I was banging on last
week about how we love football more than anyone
else. And, you know, people can take that as
they wish. But surely it's far less controversial
to say that this is the best domestic league
in the world. I don't really think there's any
debate. I think there's better, there's arguably
at any given time, there may be better teams.
There certainly have been in the past 20 years.
AC Milan were brilliant about 20 years ago. Obviously
Real Madrid, constantly brilliant. Barcelona
have been the best team I've ever seen in the
meantime. But the standard they have to play
in their leagues ain't there. Like PSG, probably
best team in the world at the moment, even though
Chelsea beat them in the Club World Cup final.
But when do they have a hard game during the
regular season? When do they have to go away
to Bournemouth and be put on a Iriola masterclass?
The classic rainy day in Stoke, even if Stoke
aren't in the Premier League anymore. It's just,
it's not the same. It's easier for them to focus
on Europe because they don't have the same standards
at home. The Premier League, every single game
is a challenge. Anyone from the relegation zone
could beat anyone from the top four on any day.
That's what makes it so wonderful. Yeah, and
there's so many, and actually before I make this
point, I was going to say there's so many competing
styles in the Premier League, which is not something
you necessarily find on the continent. So everyone
in Spain is very technical, for example, and
everyone in Germany is relatively direct, and
I don't mean long ball, they just play sort of
like wing football quite a lot. Yeah, yeah, which
is great. And that's probably why the Germans
are so good internationally. But in the Premier
League, you get such a wide variety of styles
competing against one another, which means that,
you know, all the games are interesting. Yeah.
But the point I was going to make, which is,
well, I say the point you were making, which
I was just sort of going to elaborate on and
add some additional flavor to, is we're not saying
the teams in the Premier League are the best
teams. And you made that point very clear. What
we are saying is it is the best league. It is
the most competitive. It's the most absorbing.
It's the most exciting. That doesn't mean that
it produces the best teams necessarily. So again,
as I said last week, listen to what we're saying,
not what you think we're saying. I think it'd
be a very interesting competition to have a European.
fourth tier European competition for like mid
-table teams and see how the mid -table teams
of England stack up against other countries because
I genuinely Spain aside there are some good teams
fairly deep in Spain but I think Italy I think
certainly France the Netherlands maybe not Germany
so much but I I just don't think they go anywhere
near as deep as us there's too much power and
money concentrated at the top which while you
could argue is the same in England there's a
lot more money spread out for everyone else to
enjoy as well so i think strength and depth wise
i think we got it won well i think that's right
because our coefficient is incredibly strong
and there's a reason for that and the revamping
of european competition very much serves to illustrate
that our mid -table teams are strong because
uh spurs have now won a european trophy of course
generous of you to call them mid -table and so
have west ham Well, I mean, they were lucky last
year to be qualifying for that status. But look,
what I'm saying is the one tier down, now that
there's been a revamp of the Champions League,
gives your Tottenhams, your Villas, your Crystal
Palaces this year, obviously, although now in
the Conference League rather than the Europa
League, which is a shame. Yeah, big shame. Or
at least until that appeal is settled. Yeah,
fingers crossed on that because that's bullshit,
that is. That is bullshit. Yeah. But yeah, and
West Ham. We're obviously strong. I suspect Brighton
or Bournemouth, as you say, versus a 10th or
11th place equivalent on most parts of the continent
would be an interesting watch. I think so. But
we're not here to talk about that. We're talking
about the actual Premier League itself. We are
the greatest competition in the world. The only
thing sports -wise that keeps me up at night.
It's wonderful. It's horrible. It's everything.
it is if you support a team in the premier league
it's everything and as we said last week if you
support a team in any other division that that
division's everything but the one thing that
the premier league does do is it transcends sporting
affiliations yeah in the sense that everyone
is interested in the premier league certainly
here and i would say that's true internationally
regardless of whether or not you actually support
a participant Yeah, I mean, absolutely. It's
the most watched sports league in the world in
terms of viewers on television. Obviously, it's
not quite the most watched in terms of viewers
on seats in stadiums because the Bundesliga still
has us beat. God bless the Germans. They've also
got some better stadia. They do. They have some
incredible stadiums there. But even Germany,
I mean, we're talking about competitiveness.
Germany don't have it. And I know you can make
the argument with Manchester City, England don't
have it, but it's not quite that same level.
I mean, COVID served to illustrate that. Do you
remember how excited everyone was here in England?
Well, in the UK generally, when the Bundesliga
came back before any other sporting event and
everyone was glued into their TVs to watch a
bit of the Bundesliga. And after about two weeks,
they were just like, this is not what we were
hoping for. We were hoping for something equivalent
to the Prem where every game is gone. But yeah,
alas, you can't have it all. I don't want to
upset the Germans any more than I did last week
about my strong feelings. I think I was the worst
with the Germans last week. I made a terrible
insinuation against Bayern Munich. I would apologise,
but it's not our style. And also, it's not factually
inaccurate, so there is no need for it. No, true.
Yeah, the Premier League, where did it all begin?
Where did it all begin? I mean, because the reason
I think we should talk about this just, you know,
at least briefly is because I'm not sure actually
any, like many people know about this. It's sort
of, it's just a staple of like the sporting calendar
now and people just take it as given. And I think
actually how it came about is quite interesting.
Yeah, I think if you're our age, particularly
our age or something under the age of 40 now,
you probably don't remember this. You don't remember
it happening. You've only ever grown up with
the Premier League. You don't know what preceded
it other than, you know, what's in the history
books and what you see on the highlight videos
and whatever else. I don't think any of this
is particularly surprising where it comes from.
I don't think any of this will come as a shock
to anyone where it comes from. But I think what
it does do is it provokes an awful lot of questions
and an awful lot of thinking about the direction
the game could have gone in or things that could
have been done differently which may have changed
the way the game is now. And less the impact
on the Premier League and more the impact and
it's had a colossal impact on the rest of the
Football League. Yes. And the pyramid as we talked
about last week. Yes. That's, really the effect
it's had more than anything there's a different
way they could have gone about it yeah well because
it's all money money money money it is effectively
the original super league blueprint and When
that was sort of revamped in European form recently,
it sparked anger because it was... It's exactly
the same principle. It's exactly the same principle.
That's the point. Except it didn't quite close
it off. So obviously a European Super League
would close off the pyramid because it would
deny access to the very, very top of the game
to English clubs. The Premier League didn't quite
do that, but it's, as you said, had a pretty
profound impact on teams' ability to reach the
summit. I mean, have you got... I can go into
a bit of historical context just to sort of build
on a little bit in terms of the share. I was
talking about money last week with the Football
League episode in terms of how money was shared
previously between the different leagues. I mean,
yeah, I think that's probably a pretty good place
to start. I was going to just say we were talking
about the playoffs last week in our episode on
the Football League itself and the context in
which the playoffs formed. It's not dissimilar
to the... the origins the sort of pea shoots
if you like of the premier league in that despite
quite a lot of major success european european
football for english teams in the 70s in the
early 80s the mid to late 80s like was like a
low point in english football stadiums were shit
we spoke about that there was hooliganism it
was rife all the english clubs faced five -year
ban following the heisel disaster in 85 there
was the bradford fire there was obviously hillsborough
like A lot of English, well, not even just English,
a lot of British players were playing abroad
actually as well. And the English Football League
was dragging behind Serie A in Italy and La Liga
in Spain in terms of attendance and revenue.
Yeah. And so like to give you sort of like a
quick illustration. And quality. And quality
for sure. And that's why I think a lot of the
British players were abroad. So you had like
Lineker, Platt, Chris Waddle, Glenn Hoddle, Souness,
Trevor Farnsworth. Gascoigne Laurie Cunningham
Liam Brady Ray Wilkins Mark Hughes Ian Rush etc
they all it's John Aldridge yeah all towards
the the mid to late 80s the exception being Gascoigne
went a little bit later like in the early 90s
but still pre -premier league they were all abroad
playing in predominantly Spain and Italy but
also in France so yeah that's the scene and then
as you say like it's probably worth mentioning
the way money was being divided up yeah so I
mean so as we pop back in and please do listen
to last week's episode It doesn't have to be
before this, but after this, it goes into a lot
more detail. But the FA and the Football League
had always butted heads a little bit over professionalism,
over payment, over things like that. The maximum
wage was imposed, blah, blah, blah. The FA always
being the ones who were traditionally, they wanted
the game to be amateur. If they got their own
way, the game would have been fully amateur,
whereas the Football League wanted to make as
much money as possible. That's why the Football
League was founded. But the Football League had
always been somewhat, sort of, looking to get
looking to share money across the different teams
but not for sake of fairness but for the sake
of competition yeah because they wanted to keep
it as tight as possible and not have teams running
away with it there was also no real competition
for tv rights there's no bbc and itv they would
squabble a little bit but ultimately they they
put their own best interest first ultimately
so Just to give an example, when the BBC got
Match of the Day right in 1965, they paid £5
,000 for it. That was about £85 ,000 in today's
money and that was split evenly between all 92
league clubs. Anytime any TV money, anytime any
money came into the Football League, it would
be split evenly amongst all 92 league clubs.
They got about £50 each, which is about a grand
in today's money. So it's nothing. So while top
teams could dominate, they rarely did so without
being challenged or did so for many years in
a row. There was no team who won it three years
in a row for many, many years. Well, and Liverpool
did it a couple of times in the 80s. Liverpool
did once, I think. Liverpool won it three times
in the 80s and I think four and five in the 70s.
But you're right. If you go back and look at
it, it was rare that people defended the title.
It had been done, for sure. Wolves and United
had done it and stuff. But more often than not,
you... you had different winners. And even if
you didn't have different winners, talking about
Liverpool, for example, it was always a company
with like a big rivalry with someone. Yeah, yeah,
exactly. And by the 80s, it should be mentioned
as well, the sponsorship had started being a
thing. So that was having a factor as well, beyond
simply the sharing of revenue, albeit, obviously,
it's a club owning that sponsorship. That kind
of thing also meant a great manager, someone
like Brian Clough, for example, could come into
a relatively small club, a Derby, a Nottingham
Forest, and lead them to glory. And it could
also mean that a team like Manchester United
or Spurs could find themselves getting relegated.
In the 1970s, both of them got relegated as well,
being all dominant at at least one point in the
decade before Man United. Obviously, European
champions Spurs won the double. And yeah, and
obviously it's tight and controlled in that case.
And that changed in 1983, I think. So the 80s
saw sort of the first threat of rebellion coming
along from the big teams. The equal split that
existed. as a compromise became a 50 -25, 12
.5 -12 .5 split between the four divisions. So
50 % of the revenues going to Division 1, and
then 25 % to Division 2, and 12 .5 % to each
of the two lower leagues. But yeah, and then
obviously, as you say, that was the situation
we found ourselves in. There was a few threats
of breaking away before that, which makes me
worried about the European Super League, because
that might just be the first attempt at something
that might come. roaring roaring back rearing
his ugly head reemerge but but essentially the
situation yeah the situation we find ourselves
in is the same the teams at the top want a bigger
share of the pie the 50 they were getting they
considered that to be less than they were earning
and they were probably right but it was also
keeping the other teams in the other divisions
going the thing that's really interesting about
that as well is because you set the scene really
nicely there is that that that trend of sort
of stamping their influence on negotiation strategies
by the league and what have you basically just
got exponentially more severe it didn't It didn't
slow down. What I'm saying is what you just described
from 83 didn't appease anyone. No, if anything,
it did the opposite. Yeah, it made them realise
that they had the leverage, right? And then they
certainly exercised it. Because I think it's,
like you were saying, pre -1986, as a result
of that deal, I think clubs were receiving about
25 grand a year in television rights in the mid
-80s. Sounds about right, yeah. And then... in
1986 the football league renegotiated its tv
deal it was a two -year deal 6 .3 million which
meant that the clubs received about 600k a year
by 1988 but what's interesting about that is
that that coincided with like a drive for greater
revenue generally and the division one clubs
continuously threatening to break away which
meant that they secured an increase in the voting
power yeah as well so like they were really by
the time like the sort of mid to late 80s came
along they were starting to demand higher fees
from broadcasters and influence um stamp their
authority rather on sort of commercial relations
and that sort of thing yeah and the other thing
that was changing in the world at that time as
well towards the late 80s and certainly into
the early 90s was cable tv that american favorite
of the 1980s were coming over the atlantic yeah
and all of a sudden pay for tv was a thing not
just you four terrestrial channels as it was
back then you could pay and you could get more
channels and obviously one of the competitors
in that market was rupert murdoch's b sky b yeah
yeah well this is the thing the context of that
is really interesting as well because itv i mean
i know everyone's probably thinking this is some
dry shit for talking about the premier league
just talking business but like itv i did warn
you at the beginning itv is um they're the main
players at this point I think in 88, they signed
a deal worth about 44 million, but the top clubs
took 75 % of that income because that was the
top 10 teams threatening a Super League. And
they literally called it a Super League. And
ITV were actually pushing Greg Dyke, who would
later become the chairman of the FA. People might
be familiar with his name. He was basically managing
director of the London division of ITV. And he
was like... in secret negotiations with like
man united liverpool spurs everton and arsenal
about reigniting like this breakaway concept
and stuff and like negotiating the idea of of
you know of like setting up a breakaway league
of sorts and sky as you say they were they were
going bust mate like they yeah they were in major
shit and In fact, I think this is fun. So I think
they had three options, Sky, in the early 90s,
which was... I know what you're going to say
here, and this is fun. It was to offer its subscribers
access to porn. Always a good place to start.
Offer their subscribers access to major film
or get involved in exclusive sporting events.
They decided that porn was too problematic, which
to be fair, even from a business perspective,
is probably the right call because it's now very
free. Oh yeah, they'd have been out of business
by now. Might have given them a good 15 years.
And they fucked off film because they'd already
had loads of bad experiences negotiating with
film industry and paying over the odds for films
that flopped, I think. And probably massively
simplifying that business model. But they'd also
be in trouble with that nowadays as well. Yes,
with Netflix and people like that. And yeah,
Amazon and just cinema generally. But yeah, anyway,
what Sky did have is they had access to, they
already had the rights for cricket and rugby
league. And they started to assemble talent to
present football coverage. And very smartly,
and I think this is the really, I actually think
this is the kicker, mate. Like, I think this
is little known, is the BBC couldn't afford live
games. So they were just like desperate. to get
match of the day and retain match of the day
yeah and so sky entered into a deal with the
bbc where if they won the rights to the premier
league which we haven't even actually talked
about how it formed yet but if they won the rights
to the premier league then then bbc would get
access to the highlights for match of the day
yeah and so they fucked over itv in that sense
and obviously the bbc are happy as larry because
they get the they get match of the day not fun
though obviously we're sort of skipping over
a few sets we'll probably go back and talk about
it but uh the the funny thing about this is if
you like laughing at rich powerful men is that
greg dyke started this whole process and then
he got absolutely screwed over at the end yeah
He was the one who started it all with ITV and
then ITV ended up getting absolutely nothing.
They got stiffed. BBC got match of the day and
Sky obviously end up with the rights to the Premier
League as everybody knows because it's still
on Sky to this day. It is. And it's their biggest
money earner by a mile. By an absolute mile.
And the rights are just astonishingly expensive
now as well. And they still make a huge profit.
Well, anyone who's got a Sky Sports subscription
will know why. Yes. As the price keeps going
up and up and up. It does. Well, so yeah, I mean...
To rewind then, the negotiations themselves,
it's basically, it's three guys, but two out
of three are particularly influential. And I'm
not just saying that to take the piss out of
Tottenham. So you had Martin Edwards of Man United
and you had David Dean of Arsenal. and these
two guys were like at the forefront of transforming
football clubs into like major business ventures
and applying basically like commercial principles
and administrating clubs in a way that maximize
revenue like so they were kind of like pioneers
really of like the sporting sector and uh yeah
and weirdly between them one all but one of the
first dozen premier league yeah titles yeah yeah
funnily enough and david dean's a real innovator
from from from a biased arsenal perspective because
he's the one who brought in arsene wenger and
like brought him the foreign player or at least
sort of maybe didn't bring them in because obviously
i know there had been others but really embraced
the idea of like multicultural football basically
to arsenal's benefit because you know we hadn't
won massive benefit and to the viewers benefit
as well because Arsenal played some good football
yeah they did and the standard fucking went through
the roof as well with the influx of foreign players
which we'll probably get to yeah the other guy
was Irving Scholar and he was at Spurs and so
they they're the ones who entered into sort of
like didn't enter into they sort of instigated
the secret discussions with Dyke and that sort
of started around 1990 yeah and that gained a
lot of traction because obviously the they basically
managed to convince others that it would be advantageous
to break away and set up like what is effectively
now the premier league and but they obviously
couldn't do it without the fa and so yeah they
went to the fa this is the real yeah yeah yeah
sorry i mean like you might know a bit more about
this mate but they went as far as i'm aware they
just basically went to the fa with cap in hand
and was like we want to do this and the fa as
you said hated the football league yeah so basically
um the fa who was so resistant to anything like
that in the past, any sort of concentration of
power in anyone else's hands, any profiteering,
anything like that. So determined to be a force
for football for all. Well, all men, anyway,
at that point. Sort of the bastions of early
amateurism, organisation that used equality as
their excuse to keep paying players or keep players
paid as little as possible for years. And they
went along with it because they went along with
it because they were in a big old rivalry with
the Football League for years and years. such
things as club versus country rows then they
produced this blueprint for the future of football
in the early 1990s which is a weird old document
but yeah basically it says that it tries to make
the argument that a smaller top flight would
be beneficial for the england team and i don't
really understand why it comes to that conclusion
but nevertheless it basically was going to get
implemented the only thing that stopped it was
Ken Bates came along who was the chairman of
Chelsea and persuaded the FA out of it because
Chelsea at the time were a bit of a yo -yo club
and obviously 18 teams in the league would potentially
screw them over as a team towards the bottom
of the league at that point. The FA were just
like, yep, go for it. But yeah, there was a guy
at the FA, Graham Kelly, who was the chief executive
of the FA at the time of the breakaway. He later
admitted there was a huge mistake because at
that point the clubs were so desperate to break
away. The FA could have asked for concessions
in order to do so. They could have asked for
bigger redistribution of funds to the lower leagues
as a result of tax put upon the profits. They
probably would have accepted it, but the FA was
so ready to screw over the Football League that
they just said yes and didn't demand anything
from it. He said by the time they realised what
a mistake they made, it was too late. well yeah
because they basically handed all of the power
to the to the to the teams all the power and
all the money because when they set it up it
was set up on a on a basis that basically every
single club would get a one club one vote motion
and you needed two -thirds majority to get anything
through and the fa didn't have a vote it's a
premier league vote so it's the clubs within
the premier league to vote on it yeah and it
all got signed off i think it was december 91
that uh rick powey rick powey rick parry rick
has appointed the chief exec and obviously liverpool
fans would be familiar with him because he would
later join liverpool and if you wanted an indication
of the direction of travel the chairman of the
first premier league was a guy called sir john
quinton who was the chairman of barclays bank
and i don't think you really need to know anything
else other than that do you to know which way
it was going of the barclays premier league yeah
crazy so anyway plan was drawn up first premier
league 18 clubs to be created in time for the
92 -93 season. But basically the big fundamental
difference is the Premier League was split the
money amongst all of the clubs active in just
the Premier League. And that was it really. Yeah,
I mean, it was the only change because the format
didn't change. There's still 22 teams in the
league, still free game relegated. No change
to matches, no change to anything other than
the TV coverage got a bit more Americanised.
Yeah. they took it took their influence from
monday night football uh which is obviously as
in monday night american football the american
uh tv show introduced a similar thing monday
night football with halftime shows and cheerleaders
and fireworks and everything oh yeah the first
one is cringe isn't it it's so cringy yeah and
they got rid of that pretty quickly but uh the
coverage did improve after that and they've had
some good presenters yes in the time and some
bad presenters as well well yes indeed like it
like like all good business i mean i'd like we
haven't even explained the context of the bidding
war though because if i think this is really
important because obviously said in the 80s like
this you know there's division of about uh 600k
a year for the teams so uh to put that into context
and also to put into context how badly sky needed
this uh sky we're losing 14 million a week Not
the best business model. No. And by 1991, it
was still losing 1 .5 million a week and had
accumulated 2 billion in debt. So they were in
the shit. The bidding war ensued between primarily
ITV and Sky. And I think it started at like just
over 100 mil, which, you know, divided by 20
teams is still... a significant increase per
team on um the 600k they were getting it was
it two mil some something like that no five mil
sorry my maths is terrible yeah although that
i think that was over four or five seasons yeah
yeah there'll be about a million each yes in
the beginning obviously yes as you're about to
say it went up from that it ends up being like
because there's just not bore everyone with this
ends up being 305 million over five years yeah
and the interesting thing about that is uh itv
is up their bid and itv bid something like 260
million pounds 262 million pounds for their rights
but then a certain alan sugar who was tottenham
chairman uh but more importantly he was the supplier
of sky dishes so the uh the dishes that you used
to have to put on the side of your house to get
sky was it the amstrad yeah so he tipped off
sky and told them to blow that offer out of the
water which sky promptly did with their 305 million
pound bid Which one? And do you know the ironic
thing about all of this? Spurs were shit? No,
that bid was... Well, yes, I mean that. That's
funny. But that bid was accepted in a 14 -6 split
with two abstentions, right? Arsenal, Villa,
Everton, Leeds, Liverpool and United all voted
in favour of the ITV deal. That's weird. I'm
guessing because they were tapped up in the first
place. Yeah, yeah. And there must have been like...
There's probably a sweetener for them there or
something. But like, given that Arsenal, Liverpool...
Manchester United in particular have gone on
to be some of the most dominant teams in the
Premier League era and Everton have never been
relegated and obviously Villa, but for a blip,
have also been a mainstay. It's just very ironic.
Just not mentioning Leeds being in that list.
Leeds just had a bit more misfortune, didn't
they? That's the only reason why I left them
out, not for any other reason. Badly managed
team. Yeah. Screwed over by their own management.
But yeah, I just thought it was funny because
they voted down the Sky deal and actually they've
ended up being the biggest beneficiaries of it,
arguably. But yes, Sky went from 1 .5 million
loss and a loss in 1992 generally as a business,
a 1 .5 million a week loss that is, and a financial
loss for the year ending 92 to a 62 million pound
profit in 93. It's crazy. Talk about turning
your fortunes around. Yeah. for better or worse
the stranglehold they have over football now
and I mean you can get into debates talking about
the good and the bad of it and all the money
that's coming to the game the most important
thing to talk about in terms of the money that's
coming to the game is that none of it for a very
long time it's starting to get a bit better now
but none of it went to the Football League and
interesting stat for you by 2004 of the 72 teams
who were in the Football League at the start
of the 2004 -2005 season Guess how many of them
had been in administration or financial troubles
or whatever else at that point out of 72 teams?
I don't know. You're just going to have to give
me the number. It's going to be high. Half. Whoa.
36. That is high. That's higher than I thought
it would be. And that was 11 years after this.
Even knowing it was going to be high, I would
have probably gone for a quarter of the teams
at tops. Half is absurd. It's absurd, yeah. It's
crazy. It is. Yeah, I mean, that's the problem.
There's a bigger gap between the haves and have
-nots, right? Which persists to the modern day.
It put pressure on those football league clubs
or the football league to try and catch up as
well, which led to that disastrous deal again
with ITV involved screwing over the football
league, the ITV digital saga in about 2002 where
they massively over -promised or overpaid for...
football league highlight rights and then simply
couldn't sell enough on the back of it so couldn't
then pay the football league who in turn obviously
couldn't play pay their clubs and clubs that
had budgeted for that money found themselves
going into receivership and being screwed over
yeah that's mental i mean vicious cycle and now
guess who has the football league rights sky
yeah yeah You can literally watch every football
league game now. Like, it's possible. Yeah, and
they're paying good money, or relatively good
money. Certainly nothing compared to what they're
paying the Premier League, but it's helping.
Yeah, for sure. Although, it's not to say there
aren't still football league clubs who are struggling
financially, and this week we've got a national
league club potentially going out of business
in Morecambe. Yeah, yeah, seen that. Which would
be a shame. Always, yeah. But yeah, I mean, like...
The money is the obvious thing. I guess the cool
thing about it there is the standard. I mean,
it was set up in 1992. May 1992 was when it was
officially formed. First season, 1992 -1993 season.
15th of August, 1992. We're off. We're away.
The Premier League is here. First Super Sunday
game? Who was it? Nottingham Forest versus Liverpool
was the first one. So Brian Clough's, Nottingham
Forest, Brian Clough's. Last year as Nottingham
Forest manager. Ill -fated last year as Nottingham
Forest. Went down that year to end his illustrious
career. Oh, yeah. They went down in the first
year of the Prem, didn't they? That's a shame.
Brian Clough, legend. yeah yeah it was it was
actually it's quite interesting this because
the first league involved the 19 highest place
teams in the first division as well as the champions
runners up and playoff winners of the second
division so there were 22 teams in total and
obviously there's only 20 now we'll come on to
how that came about yeah this is what also led
to the renaming of the various divisions as you
already spoke about on our last episode so if
anybody's interested in the football league and
that's history as we keep saying just go back
and listen to that one You'll get a bit more
information. But yeah, the people that got screwed
were Luton, Lutontown, Notts County and West
Ham United. They went down into what would become
the first division. They didn't take part in
the inaugural Premier League season and they
were replaced by Ipswich, Ipswich Town that is,
Middlesbrough and Blackburn Rovers. Oh yeah,
I forgot Blackburn only just got promoted. They
got very, very good very, very quickly. They
sneaked it. But yeah, of the original 22, all
the usual suspects are there, as you might imagine.
But you also had Wimbledon, now in brackets MK
Dons, who we don't like, boo. Both Sheffield
sides, that's Wednesday and United. QPR, Oldham
Athletic of all teams. Middlesbrough, Southampton,
Ipswich, Coventry, and as I've said, Blackburn.
An eclectic mix of teams compared to what people
would be familiar with now. Yeah, you could say
that. First Premier League goal? You'll know
this. Come on, mate. Of course I know this. Brian
Dean against Manchester United. Pretty much the
low point of Manchester United's season, unfortunately.
It all got better from there. It did. And in
actual fact, that allides to the next thing I
was going to say, which is United won the first
edition. They did. Actually ended a 26 -year
wait, though, to be crowned champions of England,
to be fair to them. Yeah, and there's one thing
I actually forgot to mention in the equality
I was saying before, is that in 1983, it was
actually 1983, this is why I had that year stuck
in my head. That was when, for the first time
ever, or first time for about 100 years, the
FA stopped, the Football League stopped having
gate receipts shared between the home team and
the away team, which it used to be even 80 -20
split or 75 -25 % split. I've read different
things in different places. But they used to
split the gate receipts for matches. That ended
in 1983, again, under pressure from these top
teams who had bigger stadiums. And it was no
coincidence from that point. The team with the
biggest stadium in the land then got better and
better and better as the decade went on. And
don't get me wrong, Alex Ferguson had a huge
impact on it as well. But Manchester United were
the richest club in the country in 1992 -1993
because their stadium was the biggest. That makes
a lot of sense. I did not know that. That makes
perfect sense. You're always duped into thinking
it's because they were really good at marketing.
I mean, I'm sure they are. Don't get me wrong.
It's a big foot up, isn't it? If the original
disparater is your gate receipts. Yeah, it's
a snowball effect, ultimately. Because then you
have more money to invest and blah, blah, blah.
Exactly. Which means you can get good players
in and those players turn out to be good and
handsome and photogenic like David Beckham and
then you become a bigger worldwide brand because
of it. Less so Gary Neville. Yeah. Current format?
We need to explain how we got to where we are.
Yeah, by relegating a lot of teams. Indeed, four
in fact. Don't tell me who they are because I
think I can name them. Okay. Let's see if I can
scratch the annals of my brain. 94 -95 season,
Blackburn Rovers are your champs. Ipswich is
one of them. Yes. Leicester is definitely one
of them. Yes. I want to say, who were the last
two? Norwich. Norwich was one of them. Well done,
that's three. You just need the fourth. Middlesbrough.
Middlesbrough were definitely promoted. Crystal
Palace? Crystal Palace did good. How have you
got four from four there? That's sensational
work. And yes, you were right. Middlesbrough
came up with... Can you get the bonus ball? As
in the other team to get promoted? With Middlesbrough,
yeah. 95 -96. No. I was just about to lord you
up there, but I'm still going to because I think
it's appropriate. Those who don't know much about
Jack, and that's anyone who listens to this podcast
that isn't friends with him, will not know that
he has an encyclopedic knowledge of football,
which is why I was able to recite those teams,
what was it, 20 years after the fact. Yeah, just
because I read it in 1997 or something like that.
Yeah. I still can't remember who else got promoted.
Bolton Wanderers. okay i wouldn't have came up
so that basically meant you had your 22 teams
four going down two coming up 20 clubs bob's
your uncle 95 96 we're away current format 51
teams have played in the premier league since
its formation do you want to do you want to have
a hazard a guess of where they all are now not
every single team don't get me wrong i'm not
going to test that encyclopedic knowledge and
to that extent but well 20 of the teams have
played in the premier league are still in the
premier league well done that's a good start
good start yeah So obviously Wimbledon no longer
exists or exists as MK Don's, depending on your
opinion, but they no longer exist. Yeah. Swindon
have been in there. Yes. They are, well, they're
League One now, League Two. League Two, along
with Oldham. They're the three. Oldham, yeah.
They're the three that are either bust or in
League Two. That's as low as they go, though.
Wigan are League One. So you've got, yeah, how
many teams do you think are in League One, roughly?
Bolton, are they in League One now? Yes, they
are. Haven't been promoted, I don't think. You
can't name them all. Birmingham just got promoted,
so they're in the championship. Yeah, I'm not
going to name them all. So there's 10 in League
1, which means there's 19 in the championship,
which out of a league of 24 shows you how competitive
the championship is, which is what we were talking
about before. Luton being one of them, obviously,
in League 1. In League 1, yeah. It does also
show, though, that if out of the 51 teams that
have played in the league... 49 of them are in
the top two divisions. What an advantage having
that money is. Indeed. And of them, how many
have won it? Not many. Not many at all. Like
barely any, in fact. Who have won it? That's
a good transition. Manchester United. Do you
want me just to go through every year? Well,
no. I was going to say Manchester United have
won the most. They've got 13. Yeah. City, second
with eight. Manchester City. Chelsea, we've got
five. Arsenal, I've got three. Liverpool, two.
Yeah. And there's only two others, isn't there?
Yeah, Leicester and Blackburn. Leicester and
Blackburn, yeah. Seven teams have won it. Leicester
won the Premier League. Do you remember when
Leicester won the Premier League? Do you remember
when Leicester won the Premier League? Shall
I tell that story? Because I know a bit about
this. I think that would be a good story to tell.
You can tell me it as if... You're telling me
it for the first time because I don't believe
you. I don't believe that Leicester won the Premier
League. God, Leicester City won the Premier League.
Right, so I want to say it all started when then
-manager Nigel Pearson's son, who was playing
for the team, racially abused a Thai prostitute
during an orgy on Leicester's pre -season tour
of Thailand. But that's actually not quite where
it started, although it did play a very significant
role. So we'll come back to that. I just had
to cover my mouth because I was laughing so much.
We will come back. I knew what you were going
to say before you said this. That is one of the
weirdest sliding doors, butterfly moment effects
in sporting history. And it didn't even start
there. Right. So where did it actually start?
Jesus. Well, in 2008, 2009, Leicester were in
League One of all places. They'd just been relegated
from the championship. And thankfully for them,
they were quickly promoted back to the championship
by winning League One in 2009, 2010. And then
the reason that's significant is because in August
2010, so their return to the championship season,
the Asia Football Investments Consortium, including
Vichai Rakrashirskorn. I don't know how you pronounce
his name. Everyone knows who Vichai is, though.
He's the guy who died in the helicopter crash.
He purchased Leicester and that was obviously
a buyout that he was a wealthy man and he consolidated
their position in the league and obviously that
financing helped and 2012 -2013 they made the
playoffs finishing sixth. Now that playoffs is
also quite spectacular because they lost in the
playoffs to Watford in the semis in one of the
greatest playoff semi -final ties. to ever be
played. Yes. They were 1 -0 up. You'll have heard
a clip from that match in the intro of last week's
episode. Yeah, yeah. Deeney! That one. Incredible.
So, 1 -0 up from the first leg. Sorry, go on.
Go on, what were you going to say? I was just
going to say, you explain a bit. If you haven't
seen this highlight, immediately just pause this
if you can, or as soon as you finish your drive
or whatever, watch this highlight. Just type
in Troy Deeney. Yeah, yeah, it's crazy. So Leicester
are 1 -0 up from the first leg, and it was 1
-1 in the second leg, so they were 2 -1 up on
aggregate. 65th minute, Watford take the lead,
2 -1 on the day, 2 -2 on aggregate, and, you
know, fine. It's close, it's tight, this can
happen, one goal in it, home and away, no problem.
95th minute of injury time, Leicester get a penalty.
Anthony Nochart's taking it. If he scores, Leicester
are going to the final. He took it. Almunia saved.
Almunia saved again, as it says on the commentary.
And then in a barely, literally a barely believable
sequence of events, Watford just boot the ball
downfield and break on the clearance. It's chipped
to the back post, knotted back down into the
centre on the penalty spot area. Troy Deeney
arriving late, having sprinted the entire field,
just smashes it in. Cue pandemonium, heartbreak
for Leicester. Watford. Watford go through to
the final and I think they were actually they
may have went up actually that year they lost
did they lose the final who did they lose to
do you remember oh now you put me on the spot
it doesn't matter it's not part of this story
don't remember it doesn't matter no one gives
a shit we're here to talk about Leicester so
unless they then get promoted the following season
the end of the 2013 -2014 season bearing in mind
jack like just to reframe the context promoted
to the premier league in 2013 -2014 they won
the league in 2015 -2016 so what happens in the
2014 -2015 season well they get battered basically
yeah and they're marooned at the bottom of the
table for four and a half months Late September
and the end of December, they don't win a game.
They go 13 without a win. Sounds like this season.
They're bottom of the league at Christmas. They're
god -awful. But then, in the run -in, they managed
to put together seven wins from their last nine
fixtures to survive. To put that into context,
they only won 11 all year. And they won seven
of them in the last nine. Bizarrely, they actually
finished 14th. But it was only six points above
the relegation zone. And I think they only secured
their safety either on the penultimate or the
final day. The only team to have beaten them
in the run -in as well was Chelsea, who went
on to win the league. And so basically they pull
off one of the great escapes to stay in the league,
having been promoted the year before. To say
the least, yeah. Yeah, it's really great. I mean,
one of three teams to survive being bottom at
Christmas. If you're bottom at Christmas, you're
normally fucked. Anyway, now we're back at the
point where I started. We're on the Thai pre
-season tour. Basically, because Leicester are
owned by the Thai consortium, they go to Thailand
on pre -season. And whilst out in Thailand, Nigel
Pearson's son, who was also playing for Leicester
at the time, is filmed racially abusing a Thai
prostitute whilst having an orgy out in Thailand.
That gets into the media. I wouldn't recommend
that video. No, don't need to see it. It's fairly
obvious what happened. His contract gets terminated
by Leicester, which is unsurprising. That happens
on the 17th of June, 2015. On the 30th of June,
2015, Nigel Pearson is sacked as the manager
with the club stating that the working relationship
between Nigel and the board was no longer viable.
I suspect that's because Nigel Pearson was taking
some bizarre stance in defense of his son. Who
cares? Yes. Yes. He gets sacked as well. It would
be a tough position to take that, but fair play
for him for trying. I guess it's his son, blah,
blah, blah. But nonetheless, you can't have expected
much. Didn't go into that negotiation with much
leverage. I think that qualifies as gross misconduct,
I would say. Yeah, I think that's right. So what
does that mean? That means Leicester are managerless
after surviving by the skin of their teeth the
season before. Who could they possibly appoint?
Well... the 13th of july 2015 they announced
claudio ranieri as the club's new manager on
a three -year contract and that decision was
met with derision basically but cue dilly ding
dilly dong baby there's there's very few people
in this world who i can just hear the sound of
their name and it makes me smile every time claudio
ranieri is one of them warms the heart doesn't
it it does The season starts and Claudio is an
eccentric guy. So on the opening day, he plays
Kasabian in the changing room to inspire the
team. Kasabian being from Leicester, a rock band
from Leicester. They don't keep a clean sheet
until the 10th game of the season. And when they
do, Ranieri takes them all out for pizza and
champagne as a celebration. They are somehow
top at Christmas because they've scored in their
first 17 games. And long story short, guys, they
maintain it. They pull it off. Vardy goes on
one of the all -time scoring streaks. They hang
on for dear life. They win the Premier League
with one of the lowest totals ever. But who gives
a shit? Everyone else was rubbish that year.
Especially Spurs. They managed to come third
in a two -horse race. But yeah, just one of the
great stories. And in a lovely twist of fate,
Leicester played Chelsea away on the final day
of the season. At the time, that was the only
other club that Claudio Ranieri had managed in
England because he was the first manager of Chelsea
under the Abramovich era. It was their first
league title in their 132 -year history. It's
Ranieri's only top -flight title to date. Everyone
knows they were given the odds of 5 ,000 to 1,
and they were the first non -Big Six champions
since Blackburn in 1994 -95. But Leicester won
the Premier League. That is insane. It's incredible.
I don't think money necessarily had a part to
play in it because obviously, you're talking
Riyad Mahrez turned into an absolute world -beater
and they bought him for less than a million pounds.
N 'Golo Kante. If we talk about who are the greatest
Premier League players of all time or the greatest
Premier League team, N 'Golo Kante is going to
get a mention because he's incredible at what
he does. They picked them up for nothing and
somehow got this team playing this... I really
like counter -attacking football. And they mastered,
because as long as it's attacking, counter -attacking
football and not negative, like England sometimes
played, as long as you're not sitting too deep.
If you're being aggressive, trying to win the
ball back and then springing quickly, and they
were just doing it so well. Vardy was unstoppable.
They were just good to watch. And in the meantime,
all the other teams in the league who might reasonably
be expected to put up a challenge, such as Chelsea,
came 10th, I think, that season. Such as Manchester
City, who had a bad year. such as Manchester
United who had a bad season, Tottenham and Arsenal.
Arsenal had a good finish to the season. We were
the two that should have... Tottenham fell away.
They were the only one who was really in the
title race. Liverpool came eighth, I think, that
season and just no one else wanted to win it
and Leicester were never going to lose it. It
was crazy. They won the league with 81 points.
They drew 12 games, lost three. By 11 points
or 10 points, I think. 10 points over Arsenal.
Arsenal had 71. Yeah, we had 71. I guess the
real question is, how much did they get Danny
Drinkwater for? Because he's a Premier League
winner. That's crazy. I mean, he was great that
season. He was. Alongside N 'Golo Kante. He was
awful for the remainder of his career. Yeah.
There's a few of the players in that team who...
Wes Morgan. Yeah, Wes Morgan. Jesus. But they
were brilliant. They were. Wes Morgan, a Premier
League winning captain. Incredible. Yeah, crazy.
I'm just having a quick look at their results,
actually. They got battered by us 5 -2. Lost
two of their games that they lost at. The three
were to Arsenal. They lost 2 -1 to Arsenal and
5 -2. Everybody else they either drew and beat.
I'm just trying to see if I can see who else
they might have lost to. They had a hell of a
season. They lost to Palace as well. That was
it then. They only lost three games all season.
Or did they? No, sorry. They lost to Liverpool.
Sorry. Not Palace. They beat Palace 1 -0. Definitely
beat us once. Vardy scored a screamer. Oh, yeah.
He did actually score a screamer against you
as well, didn't he? At their place at the King
Power. Newcastle and Aston Villa both relegated
that season. Yeah, wild season. Very wild. Going
down with Norwich. Bournemouth staying up. But
yeah. Yeah, Villa getting 17 points. Crazy. Southampton
qualified for the Europa League that year. Yeah,
finished above Liverpool. Quite remarkable. And
West Ham. A season never to be repeated, most
likely. But who knows? Who knows? Who knows?
Yeah, literally, who knows? There's only one
team. I had a check of the Premier League odds
before this, just out of curiosity. There's only
one team rated a 5 ,000 to one for the title.
That is Leeds United. So put your bets on, boys
and girls. Yeah, that's worth a little quid or
two. Interesting fact about the odds. Manchester
United are more likely, according to the bookmakers,
to get relegated this season than they are to
win the league. I wonder when the last time that
happened was. That's crazy. That is crazy. Who
are the all -time favourite? 25 -1 to get relegated
and 40 -1 to win the league. Liverpool are favourites,
but not odds on. Liverpool, Arsenal and City
are all pretty close to one another, like 5 -2
to 9 -2, that kind of spread. And then Chelsea
are like 10 -1. Nice. I mean, because we've spoken
quite a lot about who's favourites this year
and Leicester winning the Premier League, which
is astonishing. that that even happened. Which
they're not going to do this year. No, on account
of not being in the division. On account of not
being in it. Then let me pose this question to
you. If I asked you who are the best five teams
to compete in the Prem, where would you put your
money? Do I have to put them in order? I mean,
if you can. I know who my number one is, but
I'm biased. I know who your number one is too.
I know who my number two is. I put Leicester
at two. Do you mean favourite or best? Yeah,
like I've definitely merged those two things
so you can order it how you like. But I put Leicester
number two. Because Leicester wouldn't be in
my top five for best. No, they're not best but
I just put it in there because it's an actual
fucking miracle. Yeah. The best teams ever to
I'd say the five best teams are probably City
that 100 point season. They're incredible. Or
even pick any of the other seasons around there
yeah Liverpool 2020 team was incredible although
to be honest Liverpool last season were also
very good even if the points tally doesn't quite
add up or even the Liverpool team that didn't
win the league the year before their 2019 yeah
Arsenal obviously the unbeaten team the Invincibles
I would say Manchester United 2008 team is possibly
the best all -round team I've seen in the Premier
League oh really nice I had a United team that
was Rooney, Ronaldo, Tevez, ridiculously good
on the counter -attack. That lot. That was Rooney,
peak Rooney, and obviously Ronaldo just before
he went to Real Madrid. And Vidic, centre -back,
and yeah, crazy good team. I ordered it like
this, because we actually ended up for pretty
much the same. So I had Liverpool 19 -20 in fifth.
Most wins, earliest victory ever. Seven games
before the end of the season. Easy. I agree with
you completely. You were sensational that year.
And then I had put City... from 2020 to 2024
in there over the 100 points team the four in
a row team basically because you got you got
92 and 97 points in that window and came second
twice and city won four in a row which hasn't
been done which is insane i mean there's there's
i know it means nothing and i know this is very
much the kind of thing that people get the piss
taken out them on the internet for but there's
a 38 match period over the 2019 and 2020 season
that Liverpool didn't lose a game. Yeah. And
I think they dropped two points. I think they'd
drawn one game in that period or something. I
know that means nothing, but it's insane how
good that Liverpool team was. And the fact they
didn't win the league in 2018 -2019 on 97 points
is just ridiculous. When, as we mentioned, Leicester
won it on 81 and deserved to, but there you go.
Well, yeah. I mean, obviously, you play within
the rules of the game. Everyone appreciates that,
but like... I do think that when people over...
Interesting way of putting it, what are you talking
about, Man City? No, sure. What I mean is you
play a 38 -game season and you know that's the
parameters for determining the victor. But I
do think that people that overlook those sorts
of things are just short -sighted and idiots
because football ultimately is about, you know,
having, like, enjoying... the game as a supporter
that is as a player and as a manager and a coach
it's obviously about winning because you're professionals
but like it does crack me up when supporters
like have a go at other supporters like they
have in some way contributed to or are partly
responsible in any kind of meaningful sense for
the success of like their team and so like when
people take joy from the fact that their team
is good but isn't winning stuff and people like
take the piss out of that i think that is just
stupid and pathetic really like let people enjoy
it generally like you can be proud of your team's
achievements even though they weren't the winners
like there's nothing wrong with that but yeah
obviously if people are like putting on a pedestal
that suggests that it's equivalent to a league
title then you know maybe you can maybe you can
take them down a peg or two in those circumstances
got one league title out of it It's all relative,
isn't it? That's the point. There are stupid
things you can say on the internet. Only one
team can win every single year. And if one of
those teams is backed by an oil state and has
a bottomless pit of money and can therefore hire
the best manager in the world and basically go
out and purchase all the best players in the
world and a disproportionate number of them compared
to their rivals so they can stack the bench as
well. Why are you taking the piss out of the
sides that compete with that? It doesn't make
sense to me. But, you know, each to their own.
I guess it's Schadenfreude, isn't it? Yeah. But
yes, I have number one is the boys, mate. Invincibles.
I know. Fucking Invincibles. Just because, like,
come on. You can't win a season without losing
a game and people say that you weren't the best
that there's ever been. That's stupid. Don't
read what I'm saying as... criticizing Arsenal
in any way when I say I don't I think there were
a couple of teams in Premier League history who
were better than Arsenal all round but none of
them went the whole season unbeaten and none
of them and this is a really important point
I never turned on match of the day excited to
watch any of those other teams as much as I was
Arsenal at that time. Arsenal were just so good
to watch from like 2000 to 2005 kind of period
Thierry Henry particularly obviously the player
I love the most in Premier League history probably.
brilliant football brilliant to watch and every
it feels like i know this is probably compact
compacted memories probably me compacting the
memories of dozens and dozens of times i watched
the match today but it felt like something happened
every week because of him and because of that
team yeah brilliant i actually think like i mean
i was going to talk i actually want to talk about
some of the players he probably probably taking
us in that direction quite nicely but The reason
I put Arsenal number one as well is I agree with
you. Some of the Mourinho -Chelsea teams and
some of the Ferguson teams and the City teams
recently, you can make a case that if they played
each other, if there was a world in which they
could play each other, maybe Arsenal don't win.
I don't know. But the one thing I would say about
that Invincibles team is they underachieved.
That Invincibles team should have won the treble.
They lost to Chelsea in the quarterfinals of
the Champions League. And that was the year that
Porto won it with the Mourinho's title when they
beat Monaco in the final. Arsenal would have
played Monaco in the semis because that's who
Chelsea got knocked out by. And they lost to
United in the semifinals of the FA Cup that year,
1 -0, in one of the most one -sided defeats of
all time. And I know United fans will quite rightly
say, yeah, but do you remember when you won the
FA Cup in 2005 and you were absolutely dogshit
and we got dicked and you beat us on penalties?
and you're absolutely right but they then United
then beat Millwall in the FA Cup final the year
that Arsenal went invincible so you know get
results in those two games you drew too many
games as well I know it's a stupid thing to say
when you went the season unbeaten yeah drew 12
games you could have put away a few more teams
yeah yeah yeah anyway it doesn't matter all that
really matters is you won the title a secondary
factor to that is you won invincible which no
one has done since And only one team, as we mentioned
last week, has done before. Yeah, that's not
serious. That was a long time ago. That's not
serious. 115 years earlier. Yeah, yeah. Preston
North End. Players though, mate, you spoke about
the king. I mean, for me, can I, like, if anybody
who listens, anyone happens across this podcast
and listens to it, who is, I don't know, 20 years
old, or maybe under 30 even, like, you don't
understand. You're going to say things like Ronaldo.
You might even say, you know, Haaland or KDB.
You're wrong, I'm afraid. You just weren't there.
Thierry Henry is easily the best player to have
ever played in the Premier League. Thierry Henry
is easily the best player to have ever played
in the Premier League. I'm just agreeing with
you. Yeah. I'm not talking about easily, but
yes. Do you want me to reel off some numbers
here? It's insane. Could I stop you if I wanted
to? He's obviously in the top 10 all -time goal
scorers in Prem. But of those top 10, he's got
the highest goals to game ratio of all time.
In terms of penalties, he's second only to Letizia
in terms of conversions. He missed two in the
Premier League. He's also their third highest.
on free kicks with the fifth best ratio. And
the reason that you probably think, oh, you know,
you're just fucking drilling into the detail.
What does that mean? What does that mean? It
means it does it all, Jack. That's what I'm trying
to say here. Bangs them in an open play, mugs
people off, takes a pen, hits a free kick, like
assists. Made Jamie Carragher look like an idiot
on a few occasions. God, he was... ridiculous
he was playing in an era where it was like Ferdinand
John Terry like you say Carragher like these
kind of guys playing at centre back and he scored
at least 20 goals five years in a row most consecutive
seasons scoring at least 20 goals five in a row
most Premier League assists in a season joint
with KDB on 20 only player to score both 20 goals
and get 20 assists in a season like two times
Player of the Season award, joint most. Four
-time Golden Boot winner, joint most. Two Prems,
three FA Cups, a double. Took Arsenal to their
only two European, sorry, their only Champions
League final and a UEFA Cup final. All -time
top goal scorer, a Ballon d 'Or runner -up in
2003, which is a travesty, by the way, an actual
travesty. Was that Nedved? Yeah, I think it was,
yeah. Which, you know. It was a good player,
don't get me wrong. Yeah, we dumped in the quarters.
a couple of years later by the king and sesk
don't want to hear it um i i think this is all
i think this is all good and i think this is
all important that you're talking about these
stats i don't think any of it matters compared
to actually watch him play yeah like football
is the beautiful game and it's a beautiful game
because of people like thierry henry there's
been no one since and in my eyes no one before
certainly in england in english football you
can argue for zinedine zidane in that context
around the same time and bear in mind they were
international teammates and they won the World
Cup together albeit that was at the start of
Henry's career and he became a more important
figure for France later but the way he played
the game the goals he was scoring and the versatility
he had in terms of scoring those goals he scored
three kicks he scored pile drivers from far out
and then there's a classic slipped in down the
left hand side open up your body and curl it
into the far corner which is just a thing of
absolute beauty looking back. He could just do
it all. The way he did it with this Gallic swagger
and just such control over what he was doing,
just such clear understanding that he was good
and this is how he's going to express himself.
He didn't go out and chat. He didn't say, oh,
I'm the best and talk himself up that way. He
just showed it on the pitch and you could just
tell he was just a player with such a ludicrous
amount of self -confidence. I know this isn't
a Premier League highlight, but... That time
he takes it to the corner against Real Madrid.
I've never seen a clip where a player is so in
control of the situation. Who does he hop over?
Is it Ramos who tries to cut him in half and
he just literally just hops over him? Would it
be Ramos? Bloody hell, Ramos was playing a while
ago. It was Ramos, but whoever it was. I think
it's Ramos. Whoever it was, it doesn't matter.
It might have been a baby Ramos. I might be getting
ahead of myself, but in that game as well, he
scores a ridiculous goal. Like where he just
bounces off Fat Ronaldo and then gasses Gooty,
goes around. Probably literally bounces off,
yeah. Yeah, yeah, gasses Gooty, goes around centre
half, can't remember who it is, and smashes it
across his body, left footed into the bottom
corner, 1 -0 at the bow. Thanks. If it was 2005,
2006, it might have been Ramos actually because
they got him in 2005. Bloody hell, he's been
playing a long time. Yeah. Still going. Still
going. Yeah, the king, mate. The king. Someone
asked me the other day at work, they asked me
who the best player was in Premier League history,
and they were more senior than I, and they proceeded
to try and suggest something, you know, others,
and I just said, I'm sorry. Who were they suggesting?
You know, the usual suspects, but I just said,
Thierry Henry is the best player to ever play
in the Premier League, and I won't hear anything
else, I'm afraid. It's the least surprising thing
ever, because I know you, and anyone who's listened
to this. podcasts for more than five minutes
will also not be surprised by this but i do love
how you introduce this as let's discuss the best
players in premier league history and we've just
spent the last like 10 minutes talking about
just thierry henry um yeah i propose who else
i propose between us we assemble a best team
ever okay the premier league all right i think
we can do that yeah i think we can do that where
are we going back to front oh the problem the
problem is here you're going to set me off as
well because we're going to go goalkeeper and
i'm going to be like hmm tell me ben why is there
a debate who the best goalkeeper in the premier
league is why is that a thing why is everyone
blind to the fact that the best goalkeeper in
the premier league since he joined seven years
ago has been absolutely clear and obvious to
us you know i'm oh allison a guy who likes to
be objective i like to check my bias and leave
it at the door but it's allison it's it's been
allison it always is allison and he's so far
above his peers that i don't understand why this
is a question don't be wrong there's other good
keepers and there's keepers who have had fantastic
seasons in that time. Obviously, De Gea was brilliant
for a while and then terrible for a while. Raya's
been good recently. Edwin van der Sar. Edison
was pretty good throughout. Van der Sar further
back. Oh, going further back beyond that. Just
like the last seven years. Schmeichel and Cech.
Schmeichel and Cech. Schmeichel and Cech. For
the entire debate, I think it's a three -horse
race. I think it's Schmeichel, Cech and Alisson.
Yeah. I would narrow it down to Schmeichel and
Alisson because of their goal -scoring feats.
Because Percek never scored, which, you know,
puts them out of the running. In this case, I
can flip a coin. Piers Schmeichel was unbelievably
good in a one -on -one situation, making himself
better. Alisson's a more modern keeper, though.
He's more modern. Alisson, in one -on -one situations,
is the best keeper I've ever seen in my life.
And his shot stopping's good. His kicking and
distribution is good. He's such a leader in that
team. He allows Liverpool to play the way they
do because they can play over high line because
they have absolute faith in him, either coming
off his line or in a one -on -one situation.
Liverpool were very lucky. that Kavine Kelleher
is or has been as good as he has when Alisson's
been injured but the team changes when he's in
the team yeah yeah he is just he has so much
aura about him I'm dreading the day he leaves
these great Liverpool teams the past seven or
eight years built on him and Van Dijk to me have
had three world -class players three world -class
players in that team those two obviously and
Mo Salah yeah yeah I agree. Okay, Alisson in
goal. Done. Left back. It's easy. I'd be happy
with Schmeichel. I should say that. He was very
good too. Alisson in goal. Schmeichel on the
bench. Left back. Ashley Cole, obviously. Yes,
it is Ashley Cole. Fuck's sake. Fucking cashly.
Can I just say... He's the best defensive left
back I've ever seen in my life. He's absurdly
good. Can I just say, though, the reason he's
a cunt is... I mean, that's the first time we've
used that word on this show. I'm not sure we
have to give a special explicit tag now. But
yes, it had to come with Arsenal, that's fair.
It's because I don't actually think his move
objectively to Chelsea was that successful. He
won a lot of FA Cups. He won two titles at Arsenal.
He won one at Chelsea. He won three FA Cups at
Arsenal from four finals. And then he won four
FA Cups at Chelsea. So it's effectively the same
number of finals. And the only, the kicker is,
and maybe this justifies it for him, is that
he won the Champions League at Chelsea. Eventually,
yeah. But he also made the Champions League final
at Arsenal. And, you know, like, he just fucking
mugged us off, mate, for money. Like, he's an
invincible. He could have been a legend. And
it's like, what did you do that for? You just
went and played Chelsea for more money and won
the same stuff that you'd already won. Great.
It's been nearly 20 years, mate. Good for you.
Good for you, mate. I hope you're happy. Shall
we move on? Yeah, right back. Go on. The thing
about right back is, I think we're only putting
a right back in this team because we have to
put a right back in this team. I don't think
there's a right back in Premier League history
who's in the best 20 players in the league. Obviously,
Gary Neville, Kyle Walker, Trent. We could play
wingbacks, but if we did, we'd be sacrificing
him in the midfield because we'd have to pick
an extra centre -half. I wouldn't put Cole in
as a wingback anyway. Yeah. He's not good enough
attacking. Is it Gary Neville? It probably is,
isn't it? If you're going to pick, it's either
him or Kyle Walker. I mean, Trent's obviously
technically the best right back in Premier League
history, but Andy won a couple of titles and
I hope I'm checking my bias at the door now he's
no longer a Liverpool player. But Kyle Walker
or Gary Neville or Ivanovic, maybe? I don't know.
Probably a bit too much for Paul. I think Gary
Neville. I think it's probably Gary Neville.
I'm happy with that. Can we have Gary Neville
in to represent? the class of 92 a little bit
so we don't have to then put skulls in potentially
although i like skulls yeah but they're not gonna
they're not gonna they're not gonna make it though
are they probably not no anyway like they're
all really good and everyone loves to talk about
them but then they're not getting in this team
there's way better players center halves center
backs yeah i mean where do you begin here john
terry's got to go in unfortunately i think john
terry if you put john terry alongside someone
who's got a bit of pace Not that John Terry was
slow, but relatively speaking, compared to a
Rio Ferdinand or a Sol Campbell or a Virgil van
Dijk, he obviously was lacking a bit, but he's
just a leader and he's unbeatable in the air.
He's made five Prem titles, five FA Cups, three
League Cups, a Champions League, Europa League,
770 appearances in all comps and captain, obviously.
The thing though is that in the... A little asterisk
on some of those... champions leagues and stuff
but yeah he wasn't playing yeah sure but like
you know you say that about roy keen and i think
that would be unfair that would be very unfair
on roy keen and we're probably about to talk
about roy keen so yeah yeah yeah so like i think
the kicker for terry though is he he was a mainstay
in the oligarch era he survived the super wealth
and if he wasn't amazing chelsea would have just
bought someone better yeah so so like I hate
him, but I think he has to go in. I don't disagree.
And I think I'd have him or Vidic. Sort of that
sort of leader. Terry though. Terry's got the
longevity. Big, strong centre -back type. I'd
have Terry. For the other one. Yeah. Ferdinand.
Sol. Van. Van Dijk. Van Dijk. Probably one of
those three. Yeah. Who do you fancy? Kompany.
Vincent. That's a shout. He was really good.
I might consider him more for the, I mean, I
know we've sort of standardised him for the leader,
big boy role, and he wasn't slow, obviously.
No. But I think maybe Rio is the best out of
them. Probably those two, actually. I mean, they
were unreal, weren't they, together as well.
And again, it sucks that we're picking these
two. And we've got Gary Neville at right back
and we've got Ashley Cole at left back. And England
never bloody won anything in this time. Disgrace.
Incredible players. 4 -3 -3, defensive midfielder?
Yes. So basically 5 -1, 3 -3. Doesn't matter.
Whichever you want to call it, yeah. Yeah, yeah,
yeah. Defensive mid. 1 -3 probably, I would say.
It's either Roy Keane or N 'Golo Kante or Rodri.
It's not Rodri. Can't have that. Not yet. He's
won four titles. Yeah, yeah. In five years. But
like, that's not the same. Well, technically
he was injured for one of them. Yeah. Oh no,
so he wasn't injured for one of them. He was
injured for the season that was shit this year.
So it's four titles in six years. Yeah. He's
unreal, Rodri. Don't get me wrong. But like,
the difference is, can I make a case against
Rodri? Not because I don't think he's a wonderful
player, but Roy Keane... Was the captain of his
side. He won seven prems. It was a gun United
team under Ferguson. Four FA Cups, 480 appearances,
a treble, which I know Rodri's got, right? But,
like, he did that in a United side. He was bought
from Forrest, and he did that in a United side
that was, like, you know, had won the league
or what have you once, I think, before he joined.
But, like, were not dominant until he came in
and formed a big part of that unit and led it.
And N 'Golo Kante did it with Leicester and then
went to Chelsea and did it again. And I feel
like Rodri's just surrounded by superstars, which
obviously complement his world -class talent.
But I just think it's different. It's not as
good. Yeah, I think, again, it comes down to
who do you think was the better player versus
who do you think was the most impactful on the
Premier League history as a whole. The latter
is probably Roy Keane. The former is probably
Kante. Kante is the best defensive midfielder
in those two seasons. Yeah. He was so important.
Neither of those teams would have won the title
if he wasn't playing in midfield. I don't think.
Yeah. I just don't think that you can not pick
Roy Keane's leadership. No, I think it's Roy
Keane. Yeah. Picking captain from this team is
going to be very difficult. Two other midfielders?
Two from four, I think. I've got one which I
think just has to go in. Even though I've just
made a case against... Kevin De Bruyne. Yes.
De Bruyne goes in. I think. Yeah. He's unbelievable.
With... Vieira, Gerrard or Lampard probably in
the other one unless I'm forgetting anyone. Oh
God, that's really hard. Again, checking my bias,
I still think it's Steven Gerrard. I mean, he's
the best player of the three. Gerrard's the best
all -round player. Lampard's goal scoring was
stupid. Yes. Yeah, Lampard's the best goal scoring
midfielder in Premier League history in terms
of getting himself into the box. Vieira and Keane
would be formidable though. Vieira is class.
If you're going for a double pivot, imagine that
as a double pivot. I can pivot to a double pivot
if you'd rather. No. Just get rid of Gerrard,
stick to him as a double pivot. I think Gerrard
because I think he's just a better all -round
player. And the longevity. He played in the league
for longer than Vieira. Lampard obviously pushes
him close. I think... But we don't need Lampard's
goals in this team because our front three is
going to be disgusting. You don't, but then do
you need a lot of Gerrard skills as well, you
could argue. Do you need Gerrard's passing ability
when you've got Kevin De Bruyne? next to him
but then again you can never have too many good
passes in your team no and also gerald's gonna
he's gonna get around the place and he's dynamic
as well and he's a goal threat he'll be the box
to box kdb can float and keen's gonna just boot
people in the air which is important yeah and
distribute i don't want to i don't want this
team's taking on the all -time la liga team then
it's important you want to be booting them and
also roy keen is like let's not be disparaging
about the man's talent he was a very good footballer
oh he's a brilliant footballer so Yeah, I think
that's the three. I think that's the three, just
on balance. Although people would, you know,
understandably make cases for the other two names.
Well, front three, go on then. On the right,
Mo. On the left, Thierry. And up front, Alan
Shearer, probably. Alan Shearer, yeah. You'd
say is the top scorer, but equally, have we screwed
over Wayne Rooney by not putting a 10 in? Yeah,
Rooney's on the bench. Would he? That's fine.
Rooney on the bench, yes. Yeah, that's no problem.
That's fine. There's nothing wrong with that.
Rooney and Lampard on the bench as well. Yeah,
yeah. Aguero. Vieira will be on the bench. Van
Dijk will probably be on the bench. Or Sol. Whoever
we didn't put in out of Alisson and Schmeichel.
We put in Alisson. Schmeichel's on the bench.
Oh, God. Mo Salah, though. I was looking at his
records. He's so good. I think if we'd have had
this debate a year ago, I might have thought
about that right wing position for a second.
But Mo Salah. I can't put into words how it's
the strangest season I've ever seen anyone have
in the Premier League, up to, if you ignore the
last couple of months, where Liverpool were basically
on holiday for the entirety of May. So I can
ignore that. But even April, he was getting a
bit tired. It's not like he ever hit a 10, but
he was always an 8 or a 9. He'd score a goal,
two goals, an assist, two assists, a goal and
an assist or something like that. This is it.
And contribute throughout. He was just always...
doing something he was just doing bits constantly
he's the player with the most uh premier league
seasons with 10 goal involvements or 10 assists
in the competition's history or 10 or more mean
i mean uh six six times he's got more than 10
goals and assists in a season he's got the most
goal involvements in a single season 47 which
is insane yeah joint most golden boots with omri
joint most footballers writers awards three which
i think is also with omri fifth on the all -time
goals list it's a no -brainer he's 10th he's
10th on the all -time assists list like two prems
yeah I would genuinely say to anyone questioning
this if you're hearing this and thinking really
over Ronaldo or over someone else I just think
for a second he's way ahead Ronaldo Ronaldo is
the best player to have ever played in the Premier
League but in terms of the entirety of his career
and the peak of his ability But that peak of
his ability didn't happen while he was in the
Premier League. That's the thing. It happened
after he left and went to Real Madrid. Yeah.
In the Premier League, he was good for a couple
of seasons. One remarkable season. Brilliant
for a couple of seasons. And he was good for
a couple of, yeah, 31 goal, brilliant season.
Yeah. A couple of really good seasons. A few
when he was young and developing and doing too
many stepovers and getting kicked too much. But,
yeah, we can all go through that. And Mo went
through that, obviously, at the beginning of
his career as well. Yeah. Probably less so on
the stepover front. struggle with Chelsea but
yeah I think just just really think if you're
questioning that not just for Ronaldo but for
anyone else just really think about how good
Mo Salah has been consistently year on year on
year on year yeah he's easily he walks in mate
you have to be blind to it Alan Shearer willfully
blind to it and Shearer just because he's a goal
machine right yeah I mean imagine Shearer getting
diagonal balls from Kevin De Bruyne at that back
post be unstoppable yeah exactly and then holding
it up for Omri and Mo yeah jeez oh that would
be unbelievable that I mean that yeah Alan Shearer
is also a Premier League winner so let's not
forget that yeah Blackburn 94 -95 yeah and incredible
stuff he could have had more he went to Newcastle
being a Newcastle fan like could have had more
if there had been a Twitter of the day with a
Fabrizio Romano of the day It had been signed
off and done. Everyone was like, he is going
to Manchester United. Had he gone to Manchester
United, he'd have had five, six more titles,
probably. But he didn't. He went to Newcastle
and he nearly won the title there and then got
relegated in the end there as player -manager.
Was he player -manager? He was, wasn't he? Oh,
no, no. He retired, didn't he? And then came
back two years later as manager. Then they got
relegated. But even so, don't care. He's a pundit.
He's not a manager. But as a player... It's hard
to point out just how good he was as well. Obviously
it was the early days of the Premier League.
I've really got to point this out. He's like
Harry Kane on steroids. Yeah. So he retired really
young from playing for England. This is another
thing. 29? It was 30 years old. 29, 30, wherever
he was. He retired from playing for England.
He scored 30 goals in like 63 games for England.
Pretty good. Scored obviously 260 Premier League
goals. 260? Yeah, something like that. 260. A
lot. Which the only person who ever had a chance
of threatening that. since has been Harry Kane.
Obviously, unless he comes back pretty pronto,
that's not going to happen. Harry Kane would
probably get, you know, you'd argue if you're
going to get a like -for -like replacement on
the bench, it would be Harry Kane. He was brilliant
in the Premier League for a great number of seasons.
Ridiculous. Carried spurs with Son's help. Shearer
in 94 -95. Shearer and Sutton. Not Chris Sutton.
As much of a, you know, prick as he's turned
out to be as a pundit. He was great too. Those
two together, Shearer had pace and power. His
right boot was unbeatable. He just smashed it.
His penalties, oh, his penalties. It's aspirational.
That's how you want to take a penalty kick. A
bit like Chloe Kelly. Smash it into the top corner.
Yeah, just bins. No problem. Absolutely smashed
it. I know we're diverging slightly, but obviously
the Lionesses won, which is boss. Absolutely
incredible scenes. Pulling pants left, right
and center by not even leading games, but still
coming out victorious. Who needs to? Yeah. Yeah.
Million wastes of skin. We led for a minute of
one of the games in extra time. Yep. I genuinely
didn't. I was not worried when she stepped up
to that penalty. I was like, we've won. And then
when the young Spanish girl put it wide. When
Chloe Kelly stepped up, I was like, this is in
the bag. I know she missed in normal time against,
was it Italy? And then she followed it up with
a tap in on the rebound. But yeah, I've seen
her take a lot of penalties. She's really good
at them. So yes, Chloe Kelly or Alan Shearer.
Take your pick for technique. Put Chloe Kelly
on the bench. Yeah, Kelly on the bench. We're
digressing. What I would like to know, Jack,
is who's managing this team? Alex Ferguson. Yeah,
he is, yeah. I mean, he is. He's won 13 league
titles. 13 league titles, many doubles, a treble,
three in a row. The second he left, Manchester
United turned to absolute garbage. Other than
under Mourinho, where they were garbage, but
at least they were sort of hot garbage. At least
they were getting results. That is true. There
is a direct correlation between his departure
and them becoming absolute dogshit. There's two
ways to go about managing a football team, shall
we say. I know this is very much generalisation,
but you're either an Alex Ferguson or you're
Jurgen Klopp. Either every player wants to give
you a hug or no one wants to come within 50 yards
of you in case you give them the hairdryer treatment,
essentially. And yeah, his methods were old school,
but my God, he got some... Bang average players
playing in the best teams in Premier League history,
like Park Ji -sung. I mean, don't get me wrong,
bang average is harsh on Park Ji -sung and Nicky
Butt and Luke Chadwick. John O'Shea, people like
that. John O'Shea. Yeah, Wes Brown. They're all
good players, obviously, don't get me wrong.
He gaslighted me into thinking that United was
stacked with Man City -esque quality when I was
a kid. Just because, as you say, he got like
superhuman performances out of guys that were
clearly very good pros and clearly very talented
players, but they weren't all tier one footballers.
There was no way any one of those players, not
just because of Ferguson, but also because of
obviously Roy Keane and Gary Neville and Yap
Stam and other leaders he constantly had rolling
in and out of that team. There was no way any
of them weren't giving less than 100 % every
single game. And he got them fired up. He got
them playing a certain way. doing it at 100 %
pace and they always found a way to win. They
were the fittest team. They were the best disciplined
team, generally speaking. No quit. And they just
had enough quality to win titles and win games.
And they weren't putting on 100 points. They
weren't putting on 95 points, even like Chelsea
managed one season. They were winning the title.
One time they won the title on 75 points in 1997.
Sunderland got relegated that season on 40 points.
It was 35 points between the champion and getting
relegated. that season. And it actually should
have been one less because Middlesbrough got
points deduction. They'd have been on 41 points
otherwise. It's mad. Yeah. It is. Crazy. But
they won it. That's all that matters. Yeah. I
agree. He's obviously managing this team. I mean,
there are... That Pep would be a backup. I was
going to say. And Klopp, not far behind that.
So, the thing that's interesting... And Wenger
as well, to be fair. I would... Maybe we can
finish on this little debate. Those are, you've
named them all, and Mourinho. They're the top
five. Like, I would struggle to order them, but
what I would say is like, in Wenger and Klopp's
defense, Guardiola and Mourinho have both been
oligarch teams. Yeah. And with a bottomless pit
of resource. And Arsene Wenger in particular
didn't have that. And he broke the United monopoly.
He got Arsenal their first ever Premier League
title. He's the only Arsenal manager to have
ever won the Premier League. He obviously did
it invincible. He changed the game. Yeah, he
changed the game. Two doubles. You know, just
like a pioneer, like an actual pioneer in every
meaning of the word. Jurgen Klopp is not dissimilar,
I don't think. Like, first Liverpool title for
forever. Should have had three titles, you know
what I mean? Like you say, everyone take the
piss and say, oh yeah, but you know, that's what
you guys were talking about earlier. you know
the league is the league sure but like just because
you're if you're incredible and your rival is
double incredible doesn't mean that you're not
incredible it doesn't undermine that you know
that wasn't articulated very well but I think
catch drift yeah I mean the fact that Jürgen
Klopp is considered one of the top three managers
in Liverpool history says everything you need
to know yeah when the other two managers are
Bill Shankly and Bob Paisley yeah esteemed company
yeah i think those two deserve like some sort
of acknowledgement of the context in which they
created their success because i think jose and
pep are unbelievable like marino When he came,
I just remember, like, I'd never seen anything
like him. You know, this, like, swashbuckling,
charismatic, overtly arrogant. I think he's really
underrated. Oh, he's so good, Mourinho. Like,
first Chelsea title, back -to -backs, you know,
three league titles. Incredible stuff. I used
to hate him, and I'm sure you used to hate him,
and I don't know what your feelings for him are
now. I am warming so much to him. He's box office.
The older and older I get, and the more I look
back. It's not just because he's box office.
I just think he's a genius. Yeah, he is. I think
he absolutely understands football. From a tactical
sense, I think he's up there with the best he's
ever been. Like, he's in the top 10 in terms
of the pioneers in the sport. And you might disagree
it's not the way the sport should be played,
but it's effective. He understands how to win.
He's been successful at different teams. But
he doesn't just understand how to win. I think...
The point you've made there about him being effective
at different teams, you could never accuse Mourinho
of not getting the absolute maximum out of the
sides he's managed. I think every club he's managed...
For two or three years at least, yeah. Yeah,
yeah, yeah, sure. He did nothing last forever,
but I don't think anyone he's ever managed can
say that he didn't extract the most out of them.
No, certainly not. What else can you say? He's
been successful everywhere he's gone, pretty
much. Apart from Spurs, but what can you do there?
Yeah, but he got Spurs to a final. they sacked
him I've never managed Spurs in the final no
because they sacked him on the eve of a final
absolutely insane decision what a football club
yeah yeah I know I've never known a team to fail
to capitalise on the position they've been in
so badly as Spurs Spurs should have won something
like they should have won a title obviously they
won the Europa League last season don't get me
wrong but that 2019 obviously they got to the
Champions League final they've been challenging
a couple of Premier League titles before and
they just let it slip They did not replace some
of those players who were aging, the core of
that team. I agree. Yeah. And like, don't get
me wrong. I don't want to sound like, you know,
I've said this before about Spurs as European
trophy. I would, I would, I would happily take
it if it was my team, of course, but like, let's
get it right. They've won a diet European trophy.
Like listen to our champions league episode.
If you want to understand why we think that it's
heavily, it's quite a long rant about heavily,
heavily diluted tournament. Yeah. Certainly this
year it was. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, at least Pep,
mate. Do we really even need to say anything
about Pep? Well, Pep's the pedigree. I mean,
obviously, it's an easy place to go to say he
played under Johan Cruyff. And Johan Cruyff obviously
was part of an incredible footballing pedigree.
Stretching back to... Dutch team in the 1970s
and inherited this the total football mantra
and understanding of positional play and the
cerebral way he went about playing and coaching
and obviously Pep's inherited that part of that
dream team at Barcelona but he's built on it
so much and he there was sort of this period
but after 2005 they sort of as I mentioned they've
weakened the offside law a couple of times and
suddenly there's more space appearing in front
of defences and the way tiki -taka and that sort
of approach to football just exploited that and
moved players around and created space obviously
all football is built on what comes before you
but he has been so incredibly important like
when 100 years from now when you're talking about
the annals of history and how football came to
be what it is at any given time he is such a
huge cog in that with that barcelona team and
then obviously with city later on even if you
can obviously criticize where City's ill -gotten
gains, if you put it that way, or whatever else.
But nevertheless, they wouldn't have won four
titles in a row, a treble, and everything else
if they had an average manager. You just can't.
They had the best team, and they had the best
manager to go with it. Yeah, six titles, 100
points, a double, a treble, four in a row, doesn't
happen just because you've got lots of money.
We'd like to dismiss it like that. Let's say
it wouldn't have happened if they didn't have
lots of money, but just because they have lots
of money doesn't guarantee you that. Teams have
had lots of money before, but they've not dominated
like that before. Exactly. In fact, on that point,
I think that the only other managers to have
ever even won this league are Kenny Dalglish
with Blackburn. Legend. Carlo Ancelotti with
Chelsea. Legend. Roberto Mancini with Man City.
Very good. Yeah, Pellegrini with City. And Ranieri
with Leicester and obviously Arnie Slott. Arnie
Slott. Love him. With Liverpool. And what I'm
trying to say there is that Blackburn were rich.
None of them were English. None of them were
English, yeah. Blackburn were rich. Carlo Ancelotti
at Chelsea, they were rich. City are rich. So
only really Ranieri and Arnie Slott. I mean,
Liverpool are rich, as they're proving this summer.
Let's not pretend that Liverpool aren't rich.
Sorry, I don't... We just don't have a billionaire
investor. Yes, that's what I'm really... When
I say rich in the context of talking about football
these days, one has to differentiate... Football
is rich. Everyone is rich. Yes, yeah, yeah. You
just have to differentiate between the filthy,
astronomically rich and the rich. But Leicester
definitely weren't rich. Leicester definitely
weren't. They were okay. They had been bought
out. They were well -supported. Yeah. But as
we saw as years went by, That quickly disappears
when you overinvest and now Leicester are not
rich. Certainly not rich anymore. No, certainly
not. Even despite their FA Cup win. I don't know
if there's anything else to cover, mate. I'm
just excited for it. I'm just going to go off
and watch some highlights now. Dennis Bergkamp
highlights. Dennis Bergkamp. Dennis Bergkamp.
Thierry Henry highlights. Matt Letissier highlights.
Yeah. What a player, though. Did struggle through
COVID, though, didn't he? I mean, his highlight
reel is like nothing else. Yeah, he was unreal.
How can a player put that little effort into
football and be that good at it? It's incredible.
Yeah. I mean, if we start going down that rabbit
hole, we'll be naming people forever. There's
been some real talent. And it's all on show again.
Starting soon. Strap in. Predictions? Put your
money where your mouth is? Oh, mate, I'm never
going to not stop dreaming of the Arsenal. But
I think that you must start favourites. You're
the current champ. That's fair. You've still
got Alisson, Van Dijk and Mo. You have spent
an inordinate amount of cash on some very talented
forwards, particularly Wurz. I would just say
Man City, they will come back hard. They've still
got a great team. I agree that City will always
be there or thereabouts because they're a wounded
animal. I think Arsenal are going to be competitive,
but I think that our season hinges on how effective
Big Vic is. 100%. And I don't know how effective
he's going to be. He could go completely either
way. I agree. The one thing I would say about
him, and I know this is not any kind of scientific
measure, he does have main man energy. He doesn't
seem to be... That's not how you normally describe
it. That's not the word you normally use. He
just doesn't look overawed. And I guess that's
a good foundation. It's only observational. I
think so. He just looks like he wants it, you
know? It's always difficult as a striker because
you get criticised if you don't score goals,
even if you're being really effective. And someone
like him can be really effective, even without
scoring goals. If you look at the classic target
man striker of days past, Didier Drogba and the
like, it doesn't matter how many goals you score,
sometimes you will... create space for those
around you bloody blah etc and also have a lot
of talent around him so that's true i think he
probably will score goals though it would help
i think he'll make you better he will certainly
make us better uh gives us more options king
kai will still be doing his bit it would help
if all of our players hamstrings didn't explode
simultaneously this time and if referees didn't
fucking send off all our players excuses excuses
excuses for kicking the ball away despite not
enforcing that rule Ever again, it seems. Okay,
okay, okay. Come on. We nearly got through the
whole episode. What, without going in on VAR
and the PGMOL? Jesus Christ. People will spare
people. We'll just do a whole episode on that
sometime. Yeah, we'll spare people that for now.
I'll give you an unplugged mic and just have
you rant for a couple of hours. I do think Arsenal
could do with a bit more on the left side. So
maybe another signing there, but we'll see. But
yes, I think it's going to be very fun. Chelsea
will be a threat. I mean, it'll be very interesting
to see what happens with regards to the likes
of Newcastle, Villa, United, Spurs. Because I
think Thomas Frank is a very good manager. I
do too, yeah. And Brentford for that matter.
What's going to happen to them and a couple of
the other teams at the bottom? Oh God, they've
been gutted, haven't they? Wolves and Brentford
and some others. Obviously the newly promoted
teams. Brentford, one of the great stories. 2007,
2008, they're in League 2. Yeah, they've had
a couple of good seasons. I think this season,
what were they? 11th or 12th? 10th maybe? They
did quite well this season. Yeah, they did. But
they've always been there or there about a relegation.
Never quite in the mix. But generally they're
all there about. So I don't know. I'm worried
about them. They've lost Frank. They've lost
Norgaard to us. They've lost Mbwemo. Looks like
they're going to lose Visser. They need to reinvest
somehow. Fingers crossed for them because we
like Brentford. They need to get it right. Yeah,
me too. But not at the expense of Leeds. Not
at the expense of Leeds. Leeds is Leeds. I really
hope Leeds stay up. That would be nice. Anyway.
Who would you like to see go down? Fuck off Burnley.
Yeah, Burnley, fuck them. Who would I like to
see go down? Manchester United, Tottenham Hotspur
and Manchester City after a thousand point deduction.
That would be nice. That would be good. Who do
I realistically think would go down? I don't
care for Burnley. I don't care about Burnley.
I would like to see Sunderland stay up and I'd
like to see Leeds stay up. Same. I think Wolves
are... Yeah, Wolves are a bit benign, aren't
they? They're a bit championship now, but we'll
see what happens. Yeah. But anyway. And one more.
One more. Spurs. Spurs. I don't think that's
going to happen, mate. Sorry, Tottenham fans.
I know. I'm an Arsenal fan. Yes. All right. Well,
everyone should know where to watch it because
we basically told the story. Yeah. Amazon Prime
have a few games and TNT Sports have a few games
in England. And I'm sure lots of places, lots
of places around the world have lots and lots
of games. And you watch three o 'clock kickoffs
on a Saturday. If you're not in the United Kingdom
as well. So bonus there. Yeah, you can. That's
crazy. You can't watch them in the UK unless
you get it on a dodgy feed, obviously, which
I would never do. Never. Good boys here on the
Almanac. All right, nice. Well, where are we
going next week, Jack? Next week, all being well,
I believe we are going to really, really early
preview the Women's Rugby World Cup. That'll
be fun. As in it doesn't start for a long time.
we've got a pretty packed are we sandwiching
that in with the rugby championship i think so
yeah yeah nice we'll do we'll do a rugby doubleheader
a bit of rugby yeah nice yeah and then it'll
be the us open the week after tennis oh yeah
arthur ash lots to come as there always is in
the sporting calendar it never disappoints excellent
well see you see you soon then pal yeah see you
soon bye once more thank you for listening again
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hope and stay curious. Remember, sport is nothing
without the history that makes it. Goodbye.