WEBVTT

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A hoop and a ball. That's all you need. A hoop

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and a ball. Anyone can play. And anyone can play

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anywhere. In a garden. On a driveway. In the

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streets. A local park. In a high school sports

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hall. In Allen Fieldhouse. Or at Madison Square

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Garden. Basketball is like life. And life is

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like basketball. You aim high. You take on people

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bigger than you. Sometimes you get knocked down.

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Sometimes you miss. Sometimes your mates help

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you out. And sometimes you hit a slam dunk. It's

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just a game. A game played by giants, though,

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right? Well, tell that to Mugsy Bogues. You might

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not think it, but anyone can go all the way.

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But even those who are lucky enough to make it

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to Game 7 and win it all will find out that some

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things never change. As Charles Barkley once

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said, the only difference between a good shot

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and a bad shot is whether it goes in or not.

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This is the Sporting Almanac Podcast. Good evening,

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Jack. Good evening, Ben. Good evening, Evenal.

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That's a great start. Good evening, all. Yes,

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good evening, loyal fans of the Sporting Almanac,

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who are here for our witty banter and our competence

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behind the mic. We're learning. We're learning

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on the job. Episode 10. Episode 10, the NBA Finals.

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Kind of fun, because neither of us really know

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heaps about this sport. No, and it's a sport

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that I've always had struggles forming, I guess,

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an emotional bond with, perhaps compared to other

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sports, because it's something I got into later.

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And I get very emotional and romantic about sports,

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and without that sort of link there. I fell in

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love with the Jets because they were so useless.

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I fell in love with the Colorado Rockies because

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they were so useless. I fell in love with Liverpool

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because... You know, watching them as a kid when

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you know you're from there and you know you've

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got roots there and they've got great players

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in their team. So slightly different from my

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American links. But basketball, yeah, I've really

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had it. But one good thing about this process

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and this podcast is I think I'm starting to get

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some. So that's nice. Yeah, it is nice. That's

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exactly how I feel about it. Because it's not

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a big sport in the UK. It's growing, arguably.

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It would be an overstatement to describe it as

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big. And our only real exposure to it is the

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NBA. And that's on. unsociable hours more often

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than not yeah it's uh in terms of our actual

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competitiveness as a country there is virtually

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none there's been a handful of british nba players

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in the past but very few and far between obviously

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there's a big influx of players from around the

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world and from europe generally in the nba in

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sort of the past 20 years or so so as a sport

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popularity wise it is growing um but it's nowhere

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near the same level of prominence as american

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football yes in the uk for example Big in Spain,

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big in Greece, big in some of the Eastern Bloc

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countries. Big in France. It is big in France.

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Tony Martin. Yeah, it is big in France. That's

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a good point. But yeah, we've somehow managed

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to dodge the basketball bug. Should we just dive

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straight into a little bit about the NBA itself?

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Since it's at its climax, I guess we've got to

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set the scene a little bit. Yeah. 30 teams. Head

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first. 30 teams. 2 -15. team conferences, Eastern

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and Western, keep it simple. The top eight from

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each conference qualify for the playoffs, which

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is a fact you hate. They have the play -in tournaments

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where the top 10 teams in each conference have

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a chance to get in, but the teams ranked seven

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through 10 play a play -in game against each

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other. So realistically, the top two thirds of

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the league has a chance to reach the NBA finals,

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which to me, not a fan of, especially over it,

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because it's an 82 game season, 41 games at home,

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41 games away, long season. How many of them

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must just feel like exhibition games? That's

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my problem with it. Yeah, I think that's a fair

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critique. But it is America and it is about cash

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dollar. And that's a lot of games. And I guess

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the one good thing about the number of teams

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you get in, if we can put a positive spin on

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it after our Champions League episode, which

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was a big rant, it would be to say that knockout

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basketball is more fun than league basketball.

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And that's a big knockout tournament. Yeah, I've

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no doubt that the tournament itself, the finals,

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the playoffs in general are fantastic and very

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exciting to watch. But yeah, I think there's

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more of a balance that can be found. That's just

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my opinion. Feel free to shoot me. No, no, I

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think that's right. I mean, you don't need an

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80 game. Basically, the point of the league is

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that it creates a seeding system. So you obviously

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lose the worst teams. So there's that point to

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it. Otherwise, it's just a seeding system into

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a knockout tournament, and the two winners of

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the respective conferences. So there's a knockout

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tournament in the Eastern Conference and the

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Western Conference, and the two winners of those

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respective conferences play each other in the

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NBA Finals in a best of seven, with the team

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having the best regular season record, getting

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home court advantage, which is a rule that persists

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throughout. the playoffs themselves, so the highest

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ranked team gets home court advantage. Yeah,

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they're all seven game series. Yeah, and it's

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four at home for the higher ranked team, and

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in the finals that will be whoever is ranked

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higher. And this year is a very fun year. We

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are actually recording it before the second position

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has been finalised, but it's Oklahoma Thunder

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who are through having beat the Timberwolves.

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Yeah. And the Knicks are playing the Pacers,

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and the Pacers are dominating them. I think they're

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3 -1 up with the game five tonight, our time,

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1 a .m. And so it could well be the Indiana Pacers

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versus the Oklahoma Thunder unless there is a

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remarkable comeback. However, this playoff series

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has seen some remarkable comebacks already. It

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could happen. You never know. It could happen.

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And the thing that's very fun about it is that

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the four teams that have made the conference

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finals are all on or were in the case of... Obviously

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the Timberwolves because they're gone. Championship

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droughts. So the Knicks have not won since 1976

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and that looks like it's going to carry on. Thunder

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have only won once in 1979 and the Pacers have

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been to the final in 2000 but have never won

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it before. And unfortunately for the Timberwolves

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who are gone, they've never actually made an

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NBA finals. This is not a sport like American

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football or to a lesser extent ice hockey or

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even baseball. Yeah, baseball too, to be fair.

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Yeah, where you get changes of the guard. This

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is an era sport where teams dominate. This is

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a three -peat league. There's never been a three

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-peat, as we say, as in three victories in a

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row, in the NFL, for example, or in the Super

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Bowl era, certainly. However, basketball, they

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are not uncommon. Teams dominate long periods.

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You've got the Bulls era in the 90s, Chicago

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Bulls, Lakers in the 80s. Celtics of the 60s.

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Yeah. But apparently we are entering the parity

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or we are in the midst of the parity era, which

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I think is really actually quite cool. Yes. And

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by that we mean, we should explain, it is the

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longest continuous period in the NBA's history

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where a different team has won the finals in

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each season. So that's 2019 to this year. We'll

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have had consecutive different winners. Which

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is very fun because, yeah, as you just said,

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Jack, and we'll probably explore a few of these

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eras in a bit of detail as we talk through the

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history of basketball and some interesting people.

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But yeah, you said the Celtics in the 60s. More

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recently is Golden State in the 2010s with Steph

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Curry and co. Prior to that, it was San Antonio

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Spurs and LA Lakers shared the 2000s with Kobe

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and Shaq. Yeah, and then you've already mentioned

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the others. Going back a bit further in time.

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Most famously for our generation, the Chicago

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Bulls, obviously, with the three -peat repeat.

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Yeah. So, yeah. So, should we... Now that we've

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set the scene, should we sort of explain where

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it all emerged from? It seems a sensible place

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to start. We do like to go back to the beginning,

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so... Yeah, back to the beginning. Shall we?

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We'll rattle through this because... There's

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a danger. We've got a lot to get through. Yeah,

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and we'll dwell on this, that, and the other.

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But a brief history of basketball itself, and

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then we'll talk about the formation of the NBA.

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But basketball itself was invented in 1891 by

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a Canadian guy called James Naismith in Massachusetts.

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I think he created it as an alternative sport

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to American football at the time because it was

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a game that could be played indoors in the winter

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and a game that was less prone to injury. But

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the concept of basketball dates back to like

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1591. There's some German journal sort of making

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reference to a game involving throwing a ball

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against a target woven from twigs mounted high

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on a pole in the middle of a large playing field.

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Throwing stuff at targets high up is probably

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a fairly easy way of keeping yourself entertained.

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And as I sort of alluded to in the intro, doesn't

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take much, right? Pretty easy sport. No, pretty

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accessible. A bit like football, as in soccer.

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Just a ball and a couple of jumpers for goalposts

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and you're off. You just need a ball and a high

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target. And less people for basketball. This

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is true. So, yeah, played in colleges originally,

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the army. Some minor professional leagues came

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and went in the early 1900s. But FIBA, so the

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International Governing Body, was established

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in 1932. But yeah, the formation of the NBA.

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kind of happened independently of the formation

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of basketball as a global sport so to speak yeah

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it's um it surprised me actually when looking

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into this how new the nba is yeah relative to

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other american sports leagues very obviously

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major league baseball is by far the oldest that

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goes back into the 19th century we spoke about

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the history of the nhl and the nfl in previous

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episodes so they go back to The early part of

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the 20th century, pretty much. Really, the NBA

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only really took off as a big league from the

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50s onwards and really only properly in the 1960s

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due to a couple of stars that we'll get into

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later on. It's much newer as a big sport than

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its competitors in terms of major American sports.

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Yeah, it is. Because it was basically organized

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basketball in the States and the roots of the

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NBA was basically laden. in 1925 in the east

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of the usa via the american basketball league

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or also known as the abl that was actually set

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up by the president of the newly formed nfl but

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only ran until there we go yeah but only ran

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until 1930 i think there's gonna be quite quite

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a lot of crossover here because it's basically

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just rich dudes in america and to be fair that

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there's similar things in uh other sports as

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well individuals from prominent positions being

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responsible for setting up quite a lot of sports

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because they just love it. Some people just love

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setting up a sports league. Yeah. Lamar Hunt

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as well, who we spoke about, tennis, football,

00:12:06.649 --> 00:12:09.710
and American football, or tennis, football, and

00:12:09.710 --> 00:12:12.409
soccer, I guess he'd rather I said. Yeah, a finger

00:12:12.409 --> 00:12:16.889
in many pies. Indeed. But yeah, so the ABL came

00:12:16.889 --> 00:12:18.769
and went, but it was the first sort of properly

00:12:18.769 --> 00:12:22.389
organized league, I guess. I might be slightly

00:12:22.389 --> 00:12:25.139
misplaced in that thinking, but... there or thereabouts

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and then um yeah given a new lease of life in

00:12:29.139 --> 00:12:33.139
1937 in the midwest uh by the national basketball

00:12:33.139 --> 00:12:36.259
league or the nbl um which was basically big

00:12:36.259 --> 00:12:38.740
in midwestern industrial cities and that ran

00:12:38.740 --> 00:12:42.480
until 1949 it was basically positively amateur

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and the sport itself just has really emerged

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from pretty humble beginnings most of the abl

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and nbl games were played in like very small

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arenas and some were even played in like ballrooms

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and high school gymnasiums So, you know, it didn't

00:12:54.860 --> 00:12:59.200
have the populist support that other sports might

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have had, which sort of propelled them into sort

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of more functional, widespread entertainment

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businesses early. But yes, then came the Basketball

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Association of America, the BAA. BAA. Everyone

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having a go. Yeah. Well, this is also a common

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theme, isn't it? Like just competing leagues

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and then it all. eventually organizes itself

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under a single umbrella entity the BAA founded

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in 1946 several teams were founded in the BAA

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including three that co -founded the league so

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you might have heard of these the Boston Celtics

00:13:32.899 --> 00:13:34.600
the New York Knicks and the Philadelphia Warriors

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which are now Golden State because we know Americans

00:13:37.519 --> 00:13:40.740
like to move around with their franchises BAA

00:13:40.740 --> 00:13:42.799
that was set up by the owners because we'd like

00:13:42.799 --> 00:13:44.860
we like to do this on the almanac we like to

00:13:44.860 --> 00:13:47.120
draw the threads together it was set up by the

00:13:47.120 --> 00:13:49.840
owners of some teams who would go on to form

00:13:49.840 --> 00:13:55.320
the nhl there we go yeah so uh realizing that

00:13:55.320 --> 00:13:57.759
they could presumably i was going to say presumably

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because they wanted to use the rinks in in the

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summertime or that's exactly for something else

00:14:03.009 --> 00:14:05.169
other than ice hockey yeah you preempt all about

00:14:05.169 --> 00:14:08.669
the money yeah all about the dollar um you preempted

00:14:08.669 --> 00:14:10.590
that exact exactly that realizing that they could

00:14:10.590 --> 00:14:12.590
utilize a couple of their fairly prominent venues

00:14:12.590 --> 00:14:14.370
you might have heard of them as well madison

00:14:14.370 --> 00:14:17.330
square garden maple leaf gardens what can we

00:14:17.330 --> 00:14:19.169
do with them when we're not playing ice hockey

00:14:19.169 --> 00:14:22.789
we can play some basketball fantastic yeah And

00:14:22.789 --> 00:14:25.289
so that's the first time the leagues have sort

00:14:25.289 --> 00:14:27.570
of attempted to play primarily in large arenas

00:14:27.570 --> 00:14:30.309
in major cities. But the quality of the league

00:14:30.309 --> 00:14:32.149
wasn't necessarily significantly better than

00:14:32.149 --> 00:14:35.269
the other leagues. In 1948, three more sides

00:14:35.269 --> 00:14:38.409
joined the BAA from the NBL. So we had some defectors

00:14:38.409 --> 00:14:41.950
who also still exist. So Fort Wayne Pistons,

00:14:41.970 --> 00:14:45.590
now Detroit. The Minneapolis Lakers, now LA.

00:14:45.789 --> 00:14:48.730
And the Rochester Royals, now Sacramento Kings,

00:14:48.929 --> 00:14:52.559
which is, I guess, still the same theme. royal

00:14:52.559 --> 00:14:54.500
to king but at least they tried. Yeah that's

00:14:54.500 --> 00:14:59.179
random that. Yeah and anyway all of this leads

00:14:59.179 --> 00:15:02.240
to the creation of the NBA on the 3rd of August

00:15:02.240 --> 00:15:05.019
1949. There was a merger between the BAA and

00:15:05.019 --> 00:15:08.059
the NBL at the BAA offices which were located

00:15:08.059 --> 00:15:11.980
in one of Empire State Building in New York and

00:15:11.980 --> 00:15:14.779
it basically led to the president of the BAA

00:15:14.779 --> 00:15:17.620
becoming the president of the NBA and the president

00:15:17.620 --> 00:15:20.659
of the NBL becoming the chairman of the NBA.

00:15:21.210 --> 00:15:23.649
And it's actually got quite a rocky start from

00:15:23.649 --> 00:15:26.309
here. It's not all plain sailing. So even though

00:15:26.309 --> 00:15:29.669
it's created in 49, the new league then has 17

00:15:29.669 --> 00:15:32.509
teams, because obviously they merge, a mix of

00:15:32.509 --> 00:15:35.850
large and small cities, as well as a mix of large

00:15:35.850 --> 00:15:38.429
arenas, small gymnasiums, and even some armories

00:15:38.429 --> 00:15:43.559
people were playing in. Fair enough, yeah. Because

00:15:43.559 --> 00:15:45.899
of, I guess, some sort of political wrangling

00:15:45.899 --> 00:15:48.000
between the two entities that merged, the NBA

00:15:48.000 --> 00:15:50.580
has officially adopted the BAA's history for

00:15:50.580 --> 00:15:52.840
some reason. But in the early years, what I was

00:15:52.840 --> 00:15:54.559
going to say, sorry, I went off on a little bit

00:15:54.559 --> 00:15:56.919
of a tangent there. What I was going to say is

00:15:56.919 --> 00:15:58.600
when I say go off to a rocky start, in its early

00:15:58.600 --> 00:16:01.620
years, it actually got smaller. So it didn't

00:16:01.620 --> 00:16:05.000
expand immediately. In 1950, it consolidated

00:16:05.000 --> 00:16:09.620
to 11 teams. And then in 54, it reached its lowest

00:16:09.620 --> 00:16:11.799
number, 54 -55, reached its lowest number of

00:16:11.799 --> 00:16:14.700
eight. But they are quite famous. So they're

00:16:14.700 --> 00:16:17.039
sort of... The core of the league. Yeah, the

00:16:17.039 --> 00:16:19.799
core. That's a good way of putting it. The Knicks,

00:16:19.879 --> 00:16:23.299
the Celtics, Golden State, LA Lakers, Sacramento

00:16:23.299 --> 00:16:26.139
Kings, Detroit Pistons, Atlanta Hawks, which

00:16:26.139 --> 00:16:29.139
were the Milwaukee Hawks, and the Syracuse Nationals,

00:16:29.159 --> 00:16:31.980
which is now the Philadelphia 76ers. So yeah,

00:16:32.080 --> 00:16:35.580
that's how we got... to the NBA and then from

00:16:35.580 --> 00:16:38.240
there... Milwaukee Hawks were also the St. Louis

00:16:38.240 --> 00:16:41.100
Hawks at one point as well. There's a lot of

00:16:41.100 --> 00:16:43.960
teams in different sport history that go through

00:16:43.960 --> 00:16:45.799
St. Louis but don't stay there, like the Rams

00:16:45.799 --> 00:16:50.820
and the Cardinals as well in the NFL. Anyway,

00:16:50.860 --> 00:16:53.960
carry on. I was going to come on to something

00:16:53.960 --> 00:16:56.519
else but I'm just going to jump forward and just

00:16:56.519 --> 00:16:59.990
quickly explain that effectively the NBA... You

00:16:59.990 --> 00:17:01.190
would have thought it was looking good there,

00:17:01.350 --> 00:17:04.730
but it wasn't. It was challenged very briefly

00:17:04.730 --> 00:17:09.589
in 1967 by the ABA, the American Basketball Association.

00:17:10.089 --> 00:17:12.190
And basically the league's engaged in a big bidding

00:17:12.190 --> 00:17:15.890
war. As is the want of wealthy American businessmen,

00:17:15.910 --> 00:17:18.369
it seems, when it comes to American sports. If

00:17:18.369 --> 00:17:20.250
you've got enough cash, just throw it at it and

00:17:20.250 --> 00:17:25.150
see if you can take over. But, as you might.

00:17:25.519 --> 00:17:29.539
No, and anticipate. The ABA was not successful

00:17:29.539 --> 00:17:32.240
because you've never heard of it, and the NBA

00:17:32.240 --> 00:17:35.640
still exists. That is because the NBA landed

00:17:35.640 --> 00:17:37.359
some of the most important college stars of the

00:17:37.359 --> 00:17:39.440
era, and one in particular was a chap called

00:17:39.440 --> 00:17:42.759
Kareem Abdul -Jabbar, who people might have heard

00:17:42.759 --> 00:17:46.460
of. Yeah. He basically became the league's best

00:17:46.460 --> 00:17:48.920
player of the 70s and one of the all -time greats.

00:17:48.920 --> 00:17:50.220
There were some others, but we're going to come

00:17:50.220 --> 00:17:53.309
back to those. The NBA's leading scorer, Rick

00:17:53.309 --> 00:17:55.309
Barry, didn't all go swimmingly, sorry. The NBA's

00:17:55.309 --> 00:17:56.769
leading scorer, Rick Barry, actually jumped ship

00:17:56.769 --> 00:17:59.029
and went to the ABA. And so did a series of referees,

00:17:59.029 --> 00:18:00.450
which I don't know why is significant, because

00:18:00.450 --> 00:18:04.250
who gives a shit? That's not why people come

00:18:04.250 --> 00:18:07.170
and watch. Who cares if you've got the best refs?

00:18:07.170 --> 00:18:10.690
No, you should never know the names of referees

00:18:10.690 --> 00:18:12.390
or never care about the names of referees. And

00:18:12.390 --> 00:18:13.670
if you do, they've probably done something wrong,

00:18:13.769 --> 00:18:16.390
which has happened in the NBA, but not a story

00:18:16.390 --> 00:18:19.400
for today, that one. Yeah. But anyway, again,

00:18:19.599 --> 00:18:22.799
in response to that challenge, the NBA just went

00:18:22.799 --> 00:18:25.200
full America on it and just expanded as rapidly

00:18:25.200 --> 00:18:28.420
as possible. And so from 66 to 74, they grew

00:18:28.420 --> 00:18:32.799
from nine franchises to 18. And in 1970, the

00:18:32.799 --> 00:18:35.339
Portland Trailblazers, the Cleveland Cavaliers,

00:18:35.359 --> 00:18:38.579
and the Buffalo Braves, who are now the Los Angeles

00:18:38.579 --> 00:18:41.799
Clippers, all made their debuts, expanding the

00:18:41.799 --> 00:18:44.700
league to 17. And then they were followed by

00:18:44.700 --> 00:18:47.079
the Jazz, bringing it up to 18. And then, yeah,

00:18:47.119 --> 00:18:50.859
following the 1976 season, the NBA and ABA reached

00:18:50.859 --> 00:18:54.460
a settlement that provided for the addition of

00:18:54.460 --> 00:18:58.359
four ABA franchises to join the NBA, which were

00:18:58.359 --> 00:19:01.180
the San Antonio Spurs, the Denver Nuggets, the

00:19:01.180 --> 00:19:04.480
Indiana Pacers, and the New York Nets, who are

00:19:04.480 --> 00:19:07.480
now the Brooklyn Nets, which brought us to 22.

00:19:07.819 --> 00:19:11.680
So, yeah, like that's basically the NBA. Got

00:19:11.680 --> 00:19:14.890
off to a pretty rocky start. Like loads of wrangling

00:19:14.890 --> 00:19:16.630
between the leagues meant declining television

00:19:16.630 --> 00:19:19.910
ratings, low attendance, drug related issues,

00:19:20.069 --> 00:19:23.849
both perceived and real. And then. And then.

00:19:24.049 --> 00:19:29.950
And then came Larry Bird. And? And Magic Johnson.

00:19:30.269 --> 00:19:34.210
So Larry Bird of the Celtics, Magic Johnson of

00:19:34.210 --> 00:19:38.480
the LA Lakers. And that. Sparks major fan interest.

00:19:39.380 --> 00:19:42.119
They caused the NBA to grow in popularity very,

00:19:42.160 --> 00:19:44.099
very quickly. The two had faced each other in

00:19:44.099 --> 00:19:48.259
the 79 NCAA Division I Basketball Championship

00:19:48.259 --> 00:19:52.579
game. I'm going to assume Magic Johnson won and

00:19:52.579 --> 00:19:55.440
I have a stat later which makes me think that's

00:19:55.440 --> 00:19:57.660
the case. Oh, nice. Getting Magic Johnson's team

00:19:57.660 --> 00:19:59.619
won that. Yeah, okay, nice. I didn't actually

00:19:59.619 --> 00:20:03.019
look that up. we love a triple crown apparently

00:20:03.019 --> 00:20:04.460
that's becoming a thing and there is actually

00:20:04.460 --> 00:20:06.819
a triple crown of basketball and only eight players

00:20:06.819 --> 00:20:08.799
have ever won it and one of those eight players

00:20:08.799 --> 00:20:11.900
is magic johnson that is a winning the ncaa division

00:20:11.900 --> 00:20:14.680
one championship winning an nba title and winning

00:20:14.680 --> 00:20:16.740
a gold medal at the olympics that's your triple

00:20:16.740 --> 00:20:19.559
crown nice since larry bird's not on that list

00:20:19.559 --> 00:20:21.720
and magic johnson is i'm going to assume magic

00:20:21.720 --> 00:20:24.029
johnson came out on top here Because both of

00:20:24.029 --> 00:20:25.609
them have an Olympic gold and both of them have

00:20:25.609 --> 00:20:28.829
an NBA ring or two. Several, actually. Well,

00:20:28.849 --> 00:20:30.869
they definitely have several because these two

00:20:30.869 --> 00:20:33.529
guys were basically in every single final for

00:20:33.529 --> 00:20:35.930
a while. They played each other in three finals,

00:20:36.049 --> 00:20:39.809
84, 85, 87. But in the 10 seasons of the 80s,

00:20:39.809 --> 00:20:42.390
Johnson led the Lakers to five titles and Bird

00:20:42.390 --> 00:20:44.930
led the Celtics to three. The 80s actually was

00:20:44.930 --> 00:20:47.650
kind of a big deal for the NBA. In fact, a massive

00:20:47.650 --> 00:20:49.930
deal for the NBA. because the Dallas Mavericks

00:20:49.930 --> 00:20:53.190
also joined in the 1980s, bringing the teams

00:20:53.190 --> 00:20:56.869
up to 23. But two more very significant events,

00:20:57.029 --> 00:20:58.410
and perhaps we'll circle back to these, because

00:20:58.410 --> 00:21:00.410
I just want to mention something else before

00:21:00.410 --> 00:21:03.829
we do. But in 84, Michael Jordan was drafted

00:21:03.829 --> 00:21:05.990
in by the Bulls, and everyone's probably heard

00:21:05.990 --> 00:21:09.910
of Michael Jordan. But perhaps less famously,

00:21:10.210 --> 00:21:12.809
in the same year, David Stern became the commissioner

00:21:12.809 --> 00:21:14.690
of the NBA, and he was a pretty influential dude,

00:21:14.789 --> 00:21:16.329
and perhaps we can talk about him a bit more.

00:21:17.029 --> 00:21:21.190
But... before we do jack i just want to quickly

00:21:21.190 --> 00:21:23.990
well i want to i want to introduce something

00:21:23.990 --> 00:21:25.609
and i want to allow you to talk about someone

00:21:25.609 --> 00:21:31.009
so the nba is famously associated with um african

00:21:31.009 --> 00:21:35.450
americans uh but despite that um association

00:21:35.450 --> 00:21:38.710
uh in a similar way to say like the men's 100

00:21:38.710 --> 00:21:41.170
meter final is guys from african american backgrounds

00:21:41.170 --> 00:21:43.589
tend to be very talented this sport is very popular

00:21:43.589 --> 00:21:45.410
within the culture but it wasn't always that

00:21:45.410 --> 00:21:49.789
way despite like it That now being the demographic,

00:21:50.170 --> 00:21:54.009
what I mean by that is in 2023, 70 % of the league

00:21:54.009 --> 00:21:57.549
was black. It didn't start that way, and maybe

00:21:57.549 --> 00:22:01.029
that's unsurprising given America in the 1920s

00:22:01.029 --> 00:22:04.109
and 40s. It was an all -white sport, basically.

00:22:04.470 --> 00:22:07.990
And a Japanese -American guy called Wataru Misaka

00:22:07.990 --> 00:22:10.390
is considered to be the first person to have

00:22:10.390 --> 00:22:13.730
broken the color barrier in the 47 -48 season

00:22:13.730 --> 00:22:16.660
when he played for the Knicks in the BAA. He

00:22:16.660 --> 00:22:18.759
remained the only non -white player in the league's

00:22:18.759 --> 00:22:22.900
history until Harold Hunter came along. And he

00:22:22.900 --> 00:22:24.559
was an African -American and he signed for the

00:22:24.559 --> 00:22:28.319
Washington Capitals in the 50s. But he was actually

00:22:28.319 --> 00:22:31.240
cut from the Capitals. Did you know this before

00:22:31.240 --> 00:22:33.279
the training camp? I didn't know that. No, I

00:22:33.279 --> 00:22:36.500
knew about the first drafted, as in Chuck Cooper

00:22:36.500 --> 00:22:38.420
and Noel Lloyd. I think I actually mentioned

00:22:38.420 --> 00:22:41.400
them in the NFL episode, but I did not know about

00:22:41.400 --> 00:22:44.000
Harold Hunter. Yeah. And you've just mentioned

00:22:44.000 --> 00:22:45.660
the other two guys. And there was one other,

00:22:45.779 --> 00:22:48.460
Nathaniel Sweetwater Clifton, which I think is

00:22:48.460 --> 00:22:51.980
a great name, came in with the Knicks. But basically

00:22:51.980 --> 00:22:54.539
from there, African -American players never looked

00:22:54.539 --> 00:22:57.940
back. And some of the legends of the game quickly

00:22:57.940 --> 00:23:01.420
took center stage, which brings us on to two

00:23:01.420 --> 00:23:05.140
chaps who I think you'd like to talk about. Yeah,

00:23:05.160 --> 00:23:08.680
so... The first two real superstars in NBA history,

00:23:08.759 --> 00:23:10.880
the first real true superstars, I would say,

00:23:10.960 --> 00:23:13.960
both African -Americans, both legends in their

00:23:13.960 --> 00:23:18.019
own rights, both giants of men, one of whom I'm

00:23:18.019 --> 00:23:19.779
going to speak about particularly, but you can't

00:23:19.779 --> 00:23:21.440
speak about one without speaking about the other.

00:23:21.759 --> 00:23:25.420
Those two men were Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain.

00:23:25.619 --> 00:23:27.579
I'm going to focus on Bill Russell today, but

00:23:27.579 --> 00:23:30.119
even, I mean, the amount of time we have today,

00:23:30.200 --> 00:23:32.119
it's another introductory episode to a sport.

00:23:33.160 --> 00:23:35.599
I do not have enough time to get in everything

00:23:35.599 --> 00:23:38.940
about Bill Russell. The thing about this podcast

00:23:38.940 --> 00:23:42.259
and what we've been doing so far is, as I mentioned

00:23:42.259 --> 00:23:43.660
at the beginning, it gives me an opportunity

00:23:43.660 --> 00:23:47.440
to delve deeper into a sport, to learn more about

00:23:47.440 --> 00:23:49.599
it. Because I might know the rules and I might

00:23:49.599 --> 00:23:52.799
know who's won the recent titles. I might know

00:23:52.799 --> 00:23:53.839
this, that, and the other. And basketball is

00:23:53.839 --> 00:23:55.980
a really good example of that. I don't know about

00:23:55.980 --> 00:23:57.319
the history and I don't know about the people.

00:23:57.720 --> 00:24:00.480
But I'm really pleased this podcast has given

00:24:00.480 --> 00:24:01.980
me an opportunity to learn about Bill Russell.

00:24:02.299 --> 00:24:05.319
Because Bill Russell, anyone who knows anything

00:24:05.319 --> 00:24:07.740
about basketball will already know this. Bill

00:24:07.740 --> 00:24:09.559
Russell is an extraordinary man. Yeah, he's a

00:24:09.559 --> 00:24:13.099
cool dude. Not just a brilliant basketball player,

00:24:13.180 --> 00:24:15.579
but not just a brilliant team player, not just

00:24:15.579 --> 00:24:18.440
a winner. No one has more rings than Bill Russell

00:24:18.440 --> 00:24:20.160
does. He has more rings than he has fingers,

00:24:20.339 --> 00:24:24.180
famously. Good stat. Not only that, just an incredible

00:24:24.180 --> 00:24:26.140
man. Started playing professional basketball

00:24:26.140 --> 00:24:29.240
in the 1950s at a time he was born in the South.

00:24:29.819 --> 00:24:32.880
and grew up in an era where Jim Crow was still

00:24:32.880 --> 00:24:35.299
a thing. That's separation and segregation laws.

00:24:35.839 --> 00:24:39.279
Basically, the southern states legally treating

00:24:39.279 --> 00:24:41.559
African Americans differently to how they treated

00:24:41.559 --> 00:24:45.920
white people. So that was obviously formed the

00:24:45.920 --> 00:24:49.000
basis for the civil rights movement in the 1960s

00:24:49.000 --> 00:24:50.880
predominantly. And Bill Russell was a massive

00:24:50.880 --> 00:24:53.400
part of that. This is a man who, he marched with

00:24:53.400 --> 00:24:55.869
Martin Luther King. He stood. alongside muhammad

00:24:55.869 --> 00:24:58.529
ali he never backed down when faced with discrimination

00:24:58.529 --> 00:25:01.630
he was genuinely genuinely a leader a mentor

00:25:01.630 --> 00:25:04.730
pioneer and a winner he's honestly he's a guy

00:25:04.730 --> 00:25:08.150
he's a real legend he's also a very intelligent

00:25:08.150 --> 00:25:11.289
and well -spoken man and he's got a few books

00:25:11.289 --> 00:25:13.369
out and one of his books particularly second

00:25:13.369 --> 00:25:16.509
wind it's called is incredibly quotable like

00:25:16.509 --> 00:25:21.960
the guy has a lot of wisdom and i thoroughly

00:25:21.960 --> 00:25:23.859
recommend everyone dives into it as i said i

00:25:23.859 --> 00:25:26.599
don't really have time to go into it today but

00:25:26.599 --> 00:25:28.980
but like you say yes we'll we'll end up doing

00:25:28.980 --> 00:25:32.119
a deep a deep dive i think we must do yeah like

00:25:32.119 --> 00:25:34.059
it would be a couple of basketball guys actually

00:25:34.059 --> 00:25:35.740
that we will and mj is one of them obviously

00:25:35.740 --> 00:25:37.940
but bill russell's going to be at the forefront

00:25:37.940 --> 00:25:41.240
of that list as well yeah when he was a child

00:25:41.240 --> 00:25:44.420
his family moved from the south to oakland california

00:25:44.420 --> 00:25:48.539
they moved west and that completely changed his

00:25:48.539 --> 00:25:50.920
childhood All of a sudden, things he was used

00:25:50.920 --> 00:25:54.400
to, like having to use separate bathrooms and

00:25:54.400 --> 00:25:56.119
separate water fountains and things like that,

00:25:56.220 --> 00:25:58.980
as he used to in his youth, wasn't a thing anymore.

00:25:59.140 --> 00:26:02.140
He was in a place where he was, at least on paper,

00:26:02.220 --> 00:26:04.900
at least legally speaking, an equal, even if

00:26:04.900 --> 00:26:07.039
there was still discrimination everywhere. His

00:26:07.039 --> 00:26:08.799
prized possession as a child was his library

00:26:08.799 --> 00:26:11.920
card, and he immersed himself with reading and

00:26:11.920 --> 00:26:15.049
artwork. He's genuinely an incredibly intelligent

00:26:15.049 --> 00:26:17.609
and well -read guy. It's not something you associate

00:26:17.609 --> 00:26:20.130
with people that go on, and I'm being awfully

00:26:20.130 --> 00:26:22.589
cliche about this and stereotypical, but not

00:26:22.589 --> 00:26:24.150
something that you associate with people that

00:26:24.150 --> 00:26:26.910
go on to be superstars of sports, right? No,

00:26:26.950 --> 00:26:30.210
absolutely not. And his intelligence, his basketball

00:26:30.210 --> 00:26:32.730
intelligence particularly, made him the player

00:26:32.730 --> 00:26:35.970
he was. He had a difficult childhood. His family...

00:26:36.279 --> 00:26:38.279
were poor his mother died when he was 12 years

00:26:38.279 --> 00:26:41.880
old his heroes were Minneapolis Lakers center

00:26:41.880 --> 00:26:45.240
George Mikan who later described him as in he

00:26:45.240 --> 00:26:48.119
later described Russell as the best ever college

00:26:48.119 --> 00:26:51.279
player that he'd ever seen and his other hero

00:26:51.279 --> 00:26:53.779
was his father who went out and earned money

00:26:53.779 --> 00:26:58.440
for his family every day and taught him both

00:26:58.440 --> 00:27:00.980
to you know work ethic and also had to stand

00:27:00.980 --> 00:27:03.420
up for himself as well so as a high school player

00:27:03.420 --> 00:27:06.759
he struggled initially Because he had physical

00:27:06.759 --> 00:27:10.680
talent, he had height and strength and physicality,

00:27:10.700 --> 00:27:13.000
but he had no foundation in the game or understanding

00:27:13.000 --> 00:27:14.579
of it. He'd never played before, before he went

00:27:14.579 --> 00:27:17.559
to high school. So this led to a lot of improvisation

00:27:17.559 --> 00:27:19.299
on his part. So he was sort of making up how

00:27:19.299 --> 00:27:21.200
to play the games he went along and he had coaches

00:27:21.200 --> 00:27:23.680
trying to coach him out of it. But he stuck with

00:27:23.680 --> 00:27:25.660
it and he was convinced that his way was the

00:27:25.660 --> 00:27:28.460
best way. And now people coach people how to

00:27:28.460 --> 00:27:31.160
do it his way. Like he kept doing the things

00:27:31.160 --> 00:27:33.029
that you do. The coach has always said you have

00:27:33.029 --> 00:27:34.650
to plant your feet when you're in defence. He

00:27:34.650 --> 00:27:36.710
wanted to try and jump and time his jumps to

00:27:36.710 --> 00:27:39.809
get blocks in and to have more range when he

00:27:39.809 --> 00:27:42.269
does it. And that's how they coach defence now.

00:27:42.470 --> 00:27:45.029
He's genuinely a trailblazer. He was absolutely

00:27:45.029 --> 00:27:47.410
desperate for scholarship to try and escape.

00:27:47.509 --> 00:27:49.710
Essentially, a life as a dock worker would be

00:27:49.710 --> 00:27:51.210
the life in front of him if he didn't get himself

00:27:51.210 --> 00:27:54.630
a basketball scholarship. And he was by no means

00:27:54.630 --> 00:27:57.849
an utterly dominant and well -known high school

00:27:57.849 --> 00:28:01.099
player. He was only scouted in his last ever

00:28:01.099 --> 00:28:03.500
high school game and the scout was there to watch

00:28:03.500 --> 00:28:05.980
an opponent. The scout's name was Halder Julio

00:28:05.980 --> 00:28:09.319
and he was underwhelmed by Russell's fundamentals

00:28:09.319 --> 00:28:12.000
and his scoring ability which he lacked considerably

00:28:12.000 --> 00:28:14.859
even during his professional career. But he sensed

00:28:14.859 --> 00:28:16.759
in him an incredible instinct for the game especially

00:28:16.759 --> 00:28:19.920
in clutch moments. He was raw, relatively uncoached

00:28:19.920 --> 00:28:23.240
but he took a chance on him. So it just goes

00:28:23.240 --> 00:28:25.339
to show how close history comes and how many

00:28:25.339 --> 00:28:26.900
times this might have happened to people in the

00:28:26.900 --> 00:28:29.440
past. They might have had potential to be wonderful,

00:28:29.500 --> 00:28:32.839
but there wasn't a Hal DiGiulio there to scout

00:28:32.839 --> 00:28:37.039
them. Wrong sport, but that just brings the quote

00:28:37.039 --> 00:28:39.349
from... well, I say it's a quote, I mean, it's

00:28:39.349 --> 00:28:41.450
a dramatization, but Billy Bean in Moneyball.

00:28:42.190 --> 00:28:44.250
Yeah. When he faces off with the scouts and he

00:28:44.250 --> 00:28:45.890
goes, the number of times I've sat across the

00:28:45.890 --> 00:28:49.049
table with you from a young man and his family

00:28:49.049 --> 00:28:51.150
and you always tell them the same thing when

00:28:51.150 --> 00:28:55.730
I know, I know, and you don't, and you don't.

00:28:55.970 --> 00:28:58.609
And like, so like, yeah, yeah, what I'm getting

00:28:58.609 --> 00:29:01.349
at is this is like the converse, like the, of

00:29:01.349 --> 00:29:04.690
that, right, the converse of it. Well, I mean,

00:29:04.690 --> 00:29:06.789
he was the only scout who, he was the only scout

00:29:06.789 --> 00:29:09.369
who, ever noticed him and there would have been

00:29:09.369 --> 00:29:11.690
plenty of other scouts before him who had seen

00:29:11.690 --> 00:29:15.130
them and not noticed yeah yeah that's my point

00:29:15.130 --> 00:29:18.430
so that was if if if DiGiulio had decided to

00:29:18.430 --> 00:29:20.750
go to a different game that day or if he'd have

00:29:20.750 --> 00:29:23.549
been hyper focused on just the player he was

00:29:23.549 --> 00:29:25.569
there to see and not not everyone else around

00:29:25.569 --> 00:29:27.990
him we might never have heard of Bill Russell's

00:29:27.990 --> 00:29:30.230
name which is incredible he's a legend of the

00:29:30.230 --> 00:29:32.829
game that is a sliding doors moment of sports

00:29:32.829 --> 00:29:36.650
history it is incredible But not even just that,

00:29:36.710 --> 00:29:38.849
because he was recommended to San Francisco University,

00:29:39.190 --> 00:29:41.589
whose coach was called Phil Wolpert. And Phil

00:29:41.589 --> 00:29:43.809
Wolpert was known for deploying his players equally,

00:29:44.049 --> 00:29:46.390
as in based on their talent, based on merit,

00:29:46.509 --> 00:29:48.829
rather than their skin color. And as you can

00:29:48.829 --> 00:29:50.849
imagine in the 1950s, that wasn't that common.

00:29:51.609 --> 00:29:53.650
There was a lot of, there was a sort of unofficial

00:29:53.650 --> 00:29:56.289
quota. Like even in the NBA, you could have,

00:29:56.390 --> 00:29:58.190
unofficially, you could have one black player.

00:29:58.430 --> 00:30:00.309
Couldn't have two. Certainly couldn't have three

00:30:00.309 --> 00:30:03.470
on the court at one time. And Phil Wolpert was

00:30:03.470 --> 00:30:07.069
the first NCAA, NCAA coach ever to deploy three

00:30:07.069 --> 00:30:09.230
black players on the court at once which was

00:30:09.230 --> 00:30:12.150
Russell, a man called Hal Perry and Casey Jones

00:30:12.150 --> 00:30:15.630
and Casey Jones also is a member of the Triple

00:30:15.630 --> 00:30:20.450
Crown of basketball because Casey Jones by chance

00:30:20.450 --> 00:30:23.329
almost followed Bill Russell's career exactly,

00:30:23.589 --> 00:30:26.779
he was a teammate of him one of his key teammates

00:30:26.779 --> 00:30:29.359
he became teammate at Boston won eight rings

00:30:29.359 --> 00:30:31.700
as a player later won two as an assistant and

00:30:31.700 --> 00:30:33.880
two as a head coach and as you can imagine very

00:30:33.880 --> 00:30:35.839
much in the hall of fame and he played on the

00:30:35.839 --> 00:30:38.619
Olympic team with Russell so while they were

00:30:38.619 --> 00:30:40.480
at college together they pioneered a move as

00:30:40.480 --> 00:30:42.460
well which is now known as the alley -oop which

00:30:42.460 --> 00:30:44.539
is where one player passes and another player

00:30:44.539 --> 00:30:46.480
already in the air catches and slam dunks it

00:30:46.480 --> 00:30:48.799
or lays up but it's always better with a slam

00:30:48.799 --> 00:30:51.880
dunk at the end Yeah, Russell saw college as

00:30:51.880 --> 00:30:54.539
his way out of poverty, away from racism, and

00:30:54.539 --> 00:30:56.680
vowed to give it everything he could. He sucked

00:30:56.680 --> 00:31:00.140
in his freshman year, basketball -wise, but he

00:31:00.140 --> 00:31:02.019
wasn't on varsity at that point. He was just

00:31:02.019 --> 00:31:04.680
sort of in the B team, essentially, in a developmental

00:31:04.680 --> 00:31:07.200
team. Yes. But he gave him a chance to work on

00:31:07.200 --> 00:31:09.000
his skills there, and by the time he reached

00:31:09.000 --> 00:31:10.920
his junior year, his third year of college, he

00:31:10.920 --> 00:31:13.539
burst onto the scene, and back -to -back his

00:31:13.539 --> 00:31:15.970
last two years of college. His team won NCAA

00:31:15.970 --> 00:31:18.869
championships and winning 55 matches in a row

00:31:18.869 --> 00:31:22.349
doing so. He was so good. Bill Russell was so

00:31:22.349 --> 00:31:24.230
good by this point, the rules were changed to

00:31:24.230 --> 00:31:26.750
make defending the basket harder. And there's

00:31:26.750 --> 00:31:28.509
a few players in history that's been done for.

00:31:28.890 --> 00:31:30.970
One of them is George Mikan, the guy I mentioned

00:31:30.970 --> 00:31:33.490
who was his hero, who was another 6 '10 centre.

00:31:34.009 --> 00:31:36.130
That was a goaltending rule. And another one

00:31:36.130 --> 00:31:39.490
was Lou Alcindor. for whom dunking was banned.

00:31:39.650 --> 00:31:41.470
And Lou Alcindor is better known by a different

00:31:41.470 --> 00:31:42.930
name, and you've already mentioned him. Yeah.

00:31:43.309 --> 00:31:46.009
Kareem Abdul -Jabbar. Yeah. They banned dunking

00:31:46.009 --> 00:31:48.789
because of him for a few years in college basketball,

00:31:48.910 --> 00:31:50.549
which is insane when you think about basketball

00:31:50.549 --> 00:31:53.650
as a sport. Especially as also, like, now they've

00:31:53.650 --> 00:31:56.730
sort of realised that dunking is cool. Oh, it's

00:31:56.730 --> 00:31:58.630
the best. They have a dunk contest, for goodness

00:31:58.630 --> 00:32:02.109
sake. Yeah. So he was very heavily influenced

00:32:02.109 --> 00:32:06.500
by... the Civil Rights Movement's 1955, particularly

00:32:06.500 --> 00:32:09.420
Emmett Till, Rosa Parks. Anyone who knows about

00:32:09.420 --> 00:32:11.339
the Civil Rights Movement will know about their

00:32:11.339 --> 00:32:13.140
stories. I won't get into details with them now,

00:32:13.240 --> 00:32:16.220
but Emmett Till was a young man, 14 years old,

00:32:16.299 --> 00:32:20.799
who was essentially lynched for wolf whistling

00:32:20.799 --> 00:32:24.660
at a white woman, which is a horrible story.

00:32:24.779 --> 00:32:27.339
I recommend you look at it. It is such a key

00:32:27.339 --> 00:32:30.119
story in the history of America, and I strongly

00:32:30.119 --> 00:32:33.950
recommend people read up on that. He faced racism,

00:32:33.950 --> 00:32:37.869
as you can imagine, during his career at college

00:32:37.869 --> 00:32:40.369
and in the professional game. But he said, I

00:32:40.369 --> 00:32:42.589
never permitted myself to be the victim. And

00:32:42.589 --> 00:32:45.490
it always drove him on. He should have won the

00:32:45.490 --> 00:32:47.049
college player of the year in his final season,

00:32:47.130 --> 00:32:49.210
but a blonde white man won it instead. Oh, that's

00:32:49.210 --> 00:32:51.069
weird. For reasons I'm sure you can imagine.

00:32:51.410 --> 00:32:53.730
No, no, it's a mystery, mate. It's a mystery.

00:32:54.309 --> 00:32:56.950
I tell you, this guy's quotable. This is what

00:32:56.950 --> 00:33:00.079
he said. Russell said, well... That lets me know

00:33:00.079 --> 00:33:02.319
that if I were to accept these as the final judges

00:33:02.319 --> 00:33:04.799
of my career, I would die a bitter old man, referring

00:33:04.799 --> 00:33:07.380
to the people on the selection panel, which I

00:33:07.380 --> 00:33:08.880
think is a great quote. That is a good quote.

00:33:09.519 --> 00:33:11.900
So, as I mentioned, he won Olympic gold in 1956,

00:33:12.319 --> 00:33:15.019
before he was drafted. That was back in the days

00:33:15.019 --> 00:33:16.700
where the Olympics were completely amateur, so

00:33:16.700 --> 00:33:20.640
college players were in the team. He was also

00:33:20.640 --> 00:33:23.339
an Olympic standard high jumper, and he tied

00:33:23.339 --> 00:33:26.539
in a 1956 collegiate event with Charles Dumas.

00:33:27.309 --> 00:33:29.769
who actually went on to win 1956 Olympic gold.

00:33:30.170 --> 00:33:32.390
But he was only allowed to do one sport, so he

00:33:32.390 --> 00:33:33.869
chose basketball, which I think was probably

00:33:33.869 --> 00:33:36.490
a sensible option. Yeah, good call. I would say

00:33:36.490 --> 00:33:40.289
on the spectrum of sporting prestige, basketball

00:33:40.289 --> 00:33:43.670
is higher than high jump. Yes. He was invited

00:33:43.670 --> 00:33:45.890
to play for the Harlem Globetrotters after college,

00:33:46.069 --> 00:33:48.670
but he was enraged that the Globetrotters owner,

00:33:48.930 --> 00:33:51.970
Abe Saperstein, would only communicate the request

00:33:51.970 --> 00:33:54.069
with his coach, Walpert, and not with him directly

00:33:54.069 --> 00:34:00.009
due to his race. Of course. Yep. Told him to

00:34:00.009 --> 00:34:03.549
sling his hook. Good for him. So he made himself

00:34:03.549 --> 00:34:06.549
eligible for the 1956 draft. So Red Auerbach,

00:34:06.710 --> 00:34:09.369
who was a Hall of Fame coach of the Boston Celtics,

00:34:09.409 --> 00:34:11.750
set his sights on Russell, fancying that his

00:34:11.750 --> 00:34:13.590
defensive talents were the missing piece in the

00:34:13.590 --> 00:34:17.030
Celtics puzzle, correctly. They were a good team,

00:34:17.050 --> 00:34:18.849
so they had a low draft pick, so he had to do

00:34:18.849 --> 00:34:23.349
some trading magic. to get him, trading six -time

00:34:23.349 --> 00:34:26.949
All -Star centre Ed McCauley and a future five

00:34:26.949 --> 00:34:29.349
-time All -Star and Hall of Famer Cliff Hagen.

00:34:29.409 --> 00:34:31.969
So two Halls of Famers with 11 All -Star appearances

00:34:31.969 --> 00:34:33.949
between them, and it still turned out to be a

00:34:33.949 --> 00:34:37.250
bargain. They also drafted Casey Jones lower

00:34:37.250 --> 00:34:40.869
down, so reuniting those two. With them, in the

00:34:40.869 --> 00:34:43.090
very first season, turned the Celtics from an

00:34:43.090 --> 00:34:46.050
almost team into perennial champions. Right,

00:34:46.130 --> 00:34:49.889
so an unstoppable team. unstoppable force they

00:34:49.889 --> 00:34:52.690
perfected the hey bill defensive system wherein

00:34:52.690 --> 00:34:54.610
anyone struggling defensively would simply yell

00:34:54.610 --> 00:34:56.909
hey bill and russell would use his speed to rush

00:34:56.909 --> 00:34:59.989
over and double team them so you do that all

00:34:59.989 --> 00:35:02.769
game long pretty simple yeah it's a bit like

00:35:02.769 --> 00:35:05.909
the um like give the ball to messy mantra yeah

00:35:05.909 --> 00:35:10.690
and probably just as effective so wilt chamberlain

00:35:10.690 --> 00:35:16.179
wilt chamberlain was a player who unlike almost

00:35:16.179 --> 00:35:18.699
had the complete opposite career path to Russell

00:35:18.699 --> 00:35:23.599
to the top where Russell had to he had no experience

00:35:23.599 --> 00:35:25.880
in basketball wasn't even fancy till his last

00:35:25.880 --> 00:35:29.480
game at high school took him a while at college

00:35:29.480 --> 00:35:32.000
to get going Wilt Chamberlain was from the age

00:35:32.000 --> 00:35:34.699
of about 13 or 14 years old was one of the most

00:35:34.699 --> 00:35:36.280
famous young basketball players in the country

00:35:36.280 --> 00:35:39.579
he played high school games against teams like

00:35:39.579 --> 00:35:42.780
exhibition matches against teams with NBA All

00:35:42.780 --> 00:35:45.420
-star players. I think the NBA MVP played him

00:35:45.420 --> 00:35:47.559
and got made to look average against him. Walt

00:35:47.559 --> 00:35:50.440
Chamberlain was 7 '1", I think he was, in shoes.

00:35:50.659 --> 00:35:54.039
A massive man. Bill Russell was 6 '10", but he

00:35:54.039 --> 00:35:56.079
towered even over Bill Russell. Can I tell the

00:35:56.079 --> 00:35:58.179
funny story about him being tall in the lift?

00:35:58.880 --> 00:36:02.320
Please do. I may say it's not my story. Obviously,

00:36:02.340 --> 00:36:06.139
I've just seen someone else telling it. Kareem

00:36:06.139 --> 00:36:08.679
Abdul -Jabbar. Is it on documentary? I can't

00:36:08.679 --> 00:36:10.320
remember what it's called. It's his story, yeah.

00:36:10.400 --> 00:36:12.239
Yeah, when he says he was in a lift with him

00:36:12.239 --> 00:36:16.840
and someone asked, I guess a stranger who's in

00:36:16.840 --> 00:36:19.199
the lift just asked him, what's the weather like

00:36:19.199 --> 00:36:23.260
up there? Classic, unimaginative, silly little

00:36:23.260 --> 00:36:26.059
joke at the expense of the tall person. And Will

00:36:26.059 --> 00:36:28.800
Chamberlain just spat on him and said, it's raining.

00:36:30.579 --> 00:36:33.559
I mean... I mean, Will Chamberlain's about seven

00:36:33.559 --> 00:36:35.099
inches taller than me, and I've been asked that

00:36:35.099 --> 00:36:36.699
question a few times, and it does get annoying,

00:36:36.880 --> 00:36:39.360
but I've never spat in anyone's head. Maybe I

00:36:39.360 --> 00:36:41.360
should. Maybe next time I will. Probably stop

00:36:41.360 --> 00:36:43.860
people asking, or at least that person. Yeah,

00:36:43.940 --> 00:36:46.179
and certainly wouldn't ask twice. So, I mean,

00:36:46.239 --> 00:36:49.019
the difference between Chamberlain and Russell's

00:36:49.019 --> 00:36:51.179
upbringing, the difference between their expectations,

00:36:51.440 --> 00:36:53.400
the difference between the way they went about

00:36:53.400 --> 00:36:56.219
the game was vast. Will Chamberlain was the ultimate

00:36:56.219 --> 00:36:59.980
record chaser, I guess you could call him. He

00:36:59.980 --> 00:37:02.719
wanted to be the top scorer. He wanted these

00:37:02.719 --> 00:37:05.260
records. He wanted to have his name up in lights.

00:37:05.480 --> 00:37:09.559
He became a better team player as he got older,

00:37:09.619 --> 00:37:12.400
but certainly in his younger days, he was all

00:37:12.400 --> 00:37:16.019
about chasing records and famously got the ultimate

00:37:16.019 --> 00:37:21.099
record. 1962, he averaged 50 .4 points per game

00:37:21.099 --> 00:37:23.159
during the season, which is frankly ludicrous,

00:37:23.159 --> 00:37:25.960
but that average included a 100 -point game.

00:37:26.619 --> 00:37:29.119
which is incredible. Playing for the Philadelphia

00:37:29.119 --> 00:37:32.960
Warriors. So he always complained that he didn't

00:37:32.960 --> 00:37:34.860
have the teammates. He said if he had the teammates

00:37:34.860 --> 00:37:37.739
that Bill had had, he'd have got the rings, but

00:37:37.739 --> 00:37:40.260
he didn't. I think that's probably fair, though.

00:37:40.360 --> 00:37:42.780
The Celtics were... The only people that really

00:37:42.780 --> 00:37:46.280
beat them were Chamberlain. Yeah, the only...

00:37:46.280 --> 00:37:50.519
So in a 13 -year career, Bill Russell won 11

00:37:50.519 --> 00:37:52.980
rings, including eight in a row, which is incredible.

00:37:53.300 --> 00:37:56.030
The only exception to that... There was, I think,

00:37:56.030 --> 00:38:01.110
1958 and 1967. In 1967, it was Wilt Chamberlain

00:38:01.110 --> 00:38:03.789
playing for the Philadelphia 76ers at that point

00:38:03.789 --> 00:38:07.230
because the Warriors had moved to San Francisco.

00:38:07.610 --> 00:38:09.250
They're now the Golden State Warriors. They were

00:38:09.250 --> 00:38:12.070
the San Francisco Warriors, but he got then traded

00:38:12.070 --> 00:38:14.730
back to Philadelphia to the Philadelphia 76ers,

00:38:14.750 --> 00:38:17.590
and then he won a title with them, Chamberlain.

00:38:18.849 --> 00:38:22.570
However, so they played each other. I'll go through

00:38:22.570 --> 00:38:24.610
their numbers. So they played each other 94 times.

00:38:25.070 --> 00:38:28.309
The final was 57 -37 to Russell. Played each

00:38:28.309 --> 00:38:30.550
other in 49 playoff games, which just tells you

00:38:30.550 --> 00:38:32.690
everything you need to know about how good they

00:38:32.690 --> 00:38:35.389
were. Yeah, how often they came head -to -head.

00:38:35.590 --> 00:38:39.690
And Russell won them 29 -20 for an 86 -57 total.

00:38:40.030 --> 00:38:42.969
But it was 7 -1 in post -season series. The only

00:38:42.969 --> 00:38:47.110
one, that exception, was that 1967 championship

00:38:47.110 --> 00:38:49.750
game. So I'm going to talk about the 1969 championship.

00:38:50.170 --> 00:38:52.510
Actually, I'm going to say one thing first. Wilt

00:38:52.510 --> 00:38:54.690
Chamberlain was the first $100 ,000 a year contract

00:38:54.690 --> 00:38:59.030
in the NBA. So hearing this, Bill Russell immediately

00:38:59.030 --> 00:39:02.550
went to his management and got a $100 ,001 contract

00:39:02.550 --> 00:39:05.010
signed up, which I think tells you everything

00:39:05.010 --> 00:39:08.449
you need to know about the... It sounds petty.

00:39:08.610 --> 00:39:10.329
I don't want to use the word rivalry for a reason.

00:39:10.690 --> 00:39:12.550
Yeah, so this is the point I was going to very

00:39:12.550 --> 00:39:14.650
quickly make. That sounds petty, but these guys

00:39:14.650 --> 00:39:16.269
are actually really good friends, and they were

00:39:16.269 --> 00:39:19.769
lifelong friends, and they didn't like to be

00:39:19.769 --> 00:39:22.789
referred to as rivals for that reason. I think

00:39:22.789 --> 00:39:24.449
they called each other competitors, and it's

00:39:24.449 --> 00:39:27.389
exactly the sort of thing I'd do to you. It is.

00:39:27.920 --> 00:39:29.519
It is exactly the sort of thing I would do to

00:39:29.519 --> 00:39:32.840
you, just so I can... Because you've jumped the

00:39:32.840 --> 00:39:33.840
gun a little bit for me, but I'm going to say

00:39:33.840 --> 00:39:36.139
this to you. The guys were mates. They were friends.

00:39:36.519 --> 00:39:39.599
This is a time... An important context of this

00:39:39.599 --> 00:39:41.960
is this is a time when the NBA was still predominantly

00:39:41.960 --> 00:39:44.059
white. There weren't that many black players

00:39:44.059 --> 00:39:46.760
in the NBA, even at this point, even though two

00:39:46.760 --> 00:39:49.320
of the best players in the league were black

00:39:49.320 --> 00:39:52.860
players, which meant that this is still a time

00:39:52.860 --> 00:39:54.360
as well, certainly at the beginning of their

00:39:54.360 --> 00:39:56.820
career, in the early 60s and late 50s. This is

00:39:56.820 --> 00:39:58.860
a time where you couldn't eat in certain restaurants

00:39:58.860 --> 00:40:01.940
if you were black. You couldn't visit certain

00:40:01.940 --> 00:40:04.800
establishments if you were black. So what happened

00:40:04.800 --> 00:40:06.699
generally is whenever they had a road game at

00:40:06.699 --> 00:40:10.199
the other one's homes, whenever they traveled

00:40:10.199 --> 00:40:13.380
to play the other one, they'd be the ones picking

00:40:13.380 --> 00:40:14.860
them up at the airport, the other one up at the

00:40:14.860 --> 00:40:17.119
airport. They'd stay at their home. They'd eat

00:40:17.119 --> 00:40:21.880
their food. They'd chat to their wives. genuinely

00:40:21.880 --> 00:40:24.840
mate and they only fell out once at the end of

00:40:24.840 --> 00:40:26.739
the career for a reason I'll get to but they

00:40:26.739 --> 00:40:28.300
later made up again they used to do interviews

00:40:28.300 --> 00:40:30.840
together in the 80s talk about the game and when

00:40:30.840 --> 00:40:33.619
Wilt Chamberlain died in 1999 it was Bill Russell

00:40:33.619 --> 00:40:36.579
who gave his eulogy saying Wilt and I were not

00:40:36.579 --> 00:40:40.219
rivals we were competitors you see in a rivalry

00:40:40.219 --> 00:40:42.340
there's a victor and a vanquished and he was

00:40:42.340 --> 00:40:45.159
never vanquished that wasn't a eulogy that was

00:40:45.159 --> 00:40:46.940
something you said later but I just I think that's

00:40:46.940 --> 00:40:48.699
a lovely quote that is a lovely quote I think

00:40:48.699 --> 00:40:51.349
also I read somewhere that When Chamberlain died,

00:40:51.550 --> 00:40:54.630
his nephew said that Bill Russell was the second

00:40:54.630 --> 00:40:57.550
person whom he was ordered to inform, presumably

00:40:57.550 --> 00:41:00.510
after Wilt Chamberlain's wife or someone else.

00:41:00.630 --> 00:41:03.329
Yeah, that just puts it into perspective. These

00:41:03.329 --> 00:41:07.630
guys were proper tight mates. Yeah, it's incredible.

00:41:07.929 --> 00:41:10.989
So I'm just going to talk quickly about the 1969

00:41:10.989 --> 00:41:16.989
NBA Finals because it's, as we mentioned, The

00:41:16.989 --> 00:41:19.869
dominant team throughout the 1960s by far were

00:41:19.869 --> 00:41:21.530
the Boston Celtics, probably the most dominant

00:41:21.530 --> 00:41:27.210
team that the NBA has ever had, winning 10 titles

00:41:27.210 --> 00:41:30.869
in 12 years at this point, with Bill Russell

00:41:30.869 --> 00:41:36.489
at the fore of it. So by this point, I should

00:41:36.489 --> 00:41:38.010
mention, Wilt Chamberlain had moved to the Los

00:41:38.010 --> 00:41:39.869
Angeles Lakers. Obviously, Russell was still

00:41:39.869 --> 00:41:41.969
with the Boston Celtics. The Lakers versus Celtics

00:41:41.969 --> 00:41:45.059
is the most... The most played final matchup

00:41:45.059 --> 00:41:48.000
in NBA history, 12 times. No one else is close.

00:41:48.219 --> 00:41:50.780
No one else is even in the same ballpark. 35

00:41:50.780 --> 00:41:54.119
titles between them, 18 to 17 to the Celtics

00:41:54.119 --> 00:41:56.280
as of last year. I was going to say, Celtics

00:41:56.280 --> 00:42:00.099
are the holders, aren't they? Yeah. 45 % of all

00:42:00.099 --> 00:42:03.679
titles have been won by those two teams. They

00:42:03.679 --> 00:42:06.760
are miles ahead of third, which is Golden State,

00:42:06.840 --> 00:42:08.920
who have seven. And that's only recently. Yeah,

00:42:08.920 --> 00:42:10.380
most of them in the past decade, yeah. Yeah,

00:42:10.380 --> 00:42:13.969
exactly. So at this point, though, 1969, there

00:42:13.969 --> 00:42:16.289
was Lakers players who'd lost multiple finals.

00:42:16.590 --> 00:42:18.809
Only Wilt in the team had won one because he'd

00:42:18.809 --> 00:42:20.809
won one in the 76ers before joining the Lakers.

00:42:21.050 --> 00:42:23.309
But this was a different Celtics team. Stars

00:42:23.309 --> 00:42:26.050
like Bob Cousy, Bill Sharman had retired. Bill

00:42:26.050 --> 00:42:27.969
Russell and Sam Jones remained, but both were

00:42:27.969 --> 00:42:30.889
due to retire at the end of the series. They

00:42:30.889 --> 00:42:33.610
had John Havlicek, who was a key man, but the

00:42:33.610 --> 00:42:36.489
Lakers had Jerry West, who's famously the man

00:42:36.489 --> 00:42:39.110
on the symbol for the NBA, the man on the logo,

00:42:39.190 --> 00:42:42.289
the guy dribbling. That's Jerry West. And they

00:42:42.289 --> 00:42:44.989
had Wilt Chamberlain, Elgin Baylor, all in their

00:42:44.989 --> 00:42:46.949
prime. So the Lakers were the favourites. They'd

00:42:46.949 --> 00:42:49.349
won the West while Celtics scraped in the fourth

00:42:49.349 --> 00:42:52.570
and final playoff spot in the East. And the Lakers

00:42:52.570 --> 00:42:55.809
strode to the final. The Celtics got there, finding

00:42:55.809 --> 00:42:57.550
a bit of youthful energy to get themselves to

00:42:57.550 --> 00:43:00.019
the final, which was impressive. but the Lakers

00:43:00.019 --> 00:43:01.539
obviously had home court advantage with a better

00:43:01.539 --> 00:43:04.380
record. Chamberlain had mainly been playing a

00:43:04.380 --> 00:43:06.320
team role. As I said, he got better team players.

00:43:06.960 --> 00:43:10.400
His defending and his rebounding arguably was

00:43:10.400 --> 00:43:12.820
maybe not as good as Russell. I think Russell

00:43:12.820 --> 00:43:14.920
generally gets credit for being better because

00:43:14.920 --> 00:43:18.039
he was a bit more proactive with his defending.

00:43:18.159 --> 00:43:20.920
He would spark fast breaks. He would defend in

00:43:20.920 --> 00:43:22.940
a way that he had full control of the situation,

00:43:23.199 --> 00:43:26.500
whereas Chamberlain would just get blocks. get

00:43:26.500 --> 00:43:28.719
his hand in and block stuff and whatever. Do

00:43:28.719 --> 00:43:31.820
enough. Stat -wise, his blocks and his rebound

00:43:31.820 --> 00:43:34.300
were better than Russell's. I mean, obviously

00:43:34.300 --> 00:43:37.679
it helps him being a literal giant, but nevertheless,

00:43:38.000 --> 00:43:40.880
he had talent defensively. So he was playing

00:43:40.880 --> 00:43:42.280
more of a defensive role. He'd still average

00:43:42.280 --> 00:43:44.980
21 points per game in the season, but Jerry West

00:43:44.980 --> 00:43:47.159
and Elgin Baylor were ahead of him on that. But

00:43:47.159 --> 00:43:48.739
between them, obviously they were a hell of an

00:43:48.739 --> 00:43:52.000
offensive trio. So it went with home court advantage

00:43:52.000 --> 00:43:54.380
for the first six games. So it was free all.

00:43:55.320 --> 00:43:57.920
going into game seven. The Lakers came within

00:43:57.920 --> 00:44:00.300
seven seconds of breaking that though in game

00:44:00.300 --> 00:44:04.659
four. So with seven seconds left, Russell benched

00:44:04.659 --> 00:44:06.119
himself. I should point out as well, by this

00:44:06.119 --> 00:44:08.880
point, Bill Russell was coaching. Yeah, player

00:44:08.880 --> 00:44:10.920
manager. Boston Celtics as well as players. Player

00:44:10.920 --> 00:44:12.480
manager, yeah, essentially. He'd been doing that

00:44:12.480 --> 00:44:15.079
for three years. Had already won a title as a

00:44:15.079 --> 00:44:17.760
coach the year before. Now was in that position

00:44:17.760 --> 00:44:20.440
again. So he benched himself. Just quickly, Jack.

00:44:20.500 --> 00:44:23.320
For anybody who is American who thinks, he wasn't

00:44:23.320 --> 00:44:25.320
the general manager, you idiot. He was the coach.

00:44:25.719 --> 00:44:29.960
That was a football reference. A soccer reference.

00:44:29.960 --> 00:44:32.460
A soccer reference, yeah. Sorry. So the player

00:44:32.460 --> 00:44:35.829
manager is what one would call a... head coach

00:44:35.829 --> 00:44:38.650
of a soccer team who's also the player on the

00:44:38.650 --> 00:44:40.989
team, which is a lot rarer nowadays than it used

00:44:40.989 --> 00:44:43.409
to be. In fact, barely ever happens anymore unless

00:44:43.409 --> 00:44:46.969
he's a caretaker role. Indeed. Anyway, so yeah,

00:44:47.070 --> 00:44:50.250
seven seconds left of game four. Russell had

00:44:50.250 --> 00:44:51.730
benched himself because he considered himself

00:44:51.730 --> 00:44:53.369
to be a poor free -throw shooter, which he was,

00:44:53.409 --> 00:44:55.510
to be fair. He was a poor shooter all round,

00:44:55.570 --> 00:44:58.230
actually. His points per game was fairly poor

00:44:58.230 --> 00:45:00.230
throughout his career, but his defensive game

00:45:00.230 --> 00:45:03.619
obviously made up for that. Sam Jones, in possession

00:45:03.619 --> 00:45:06.039
for the winning shot, slipped and somehow got

00:45:06.039 --> 00:45:08.420
a shot off the bouncing off the rim. He later

00:45:08.420 --> 00:45:10.880
admitted that it was a lucky shot, the no -need

00:45:10.880 --> 00:45:13.500
slip, the aim to get it somewhere near the basket

00:45:13.500 --> 00:45:15.880
to give Bill Russell a shot at the rebound. He

00:45:15.880 --> 00:45:17.780
hadn't realised that Bill Russell had taken himself

00:45:17.780 --> 00:45:20.880
off at this point. So on such margins, a series

00:45:20.880 --> 00:45:23.500
won and lost, or rings won and lost. Sometimes

00:45:23.500 --> 00:45:26.179
you've got to throw up a prayer. Sometimes you

00:45:26.179 --> 00:45:30.320
do. So it went to game seven. one of the most

00:45:30.320 --> 00:45:33.340
legendary Game 7s of all time. So the owner of

00:45:33.340 --> 00:45:36.039
the Lakers was a man called Jack Kent Cook. He'd

00:45:36.039 --> 00:45:38.780
had balloons emblazoned with world champion Lakers

00:45:38.780 --> 00:45:41.179
hung in nets around the forum rafters, because

00:45:41.179 --> 00:45:44.079
obviously Game 7 was in Los Angeles. He'd already

00:45:44.079 --> 00:45:46.820
planned for a USC marching band to play Happy

00:45:46.820 --> 00:45:49.519
Days Are Here Again as soon as the game ended,

00:45:49.659 --> 00:45:52.780
anticipating a Lakers win. There were flyers

00:45:52.780 --> 00:45:56.400
laid out in every seat, ready to be held up for

00:45:56.400 --> 00:45:59.059
a Lakers win. And unsurprisingly, Bill Russell

00:45:59.059 --> 00:46:01.980
found out about this and used it as a motivational

00:46:01.980 --> 00:46:05.099
tool, as you can imagine, for the Celtics. And

00:46:05.099 --> 00:46:09.039
this is another classic Bill Russell quote. Those

00:46:09.039 --> 00:46:12.599
fucking balloons are staying up there. Which

00:46:12.599 --> 00:46:16.000
I like. I like that as well. To the point. I

00:46:16.000 --> 00:46:18.719
think he probably said it a lot cooler than I

00:46:18.719 --> 00:46:21.679
did, but nevertheless, great quote. You mean

00:46:21.679 --> 00:46:23.780
you don't have the charisma of one of the greatest

00:46:23.780 --> 00:46:26.869
basketball players that ever lived? You know

00:46:26.869 --> 00:46:30.710
what? Probably not. I can concede that. So there's

00:46:30.710 --> 00:46:32.869
an ongoing feud between Chamberlain and his coach,

00:46:32.949 --> 00:46:35.750
who is Butch Vanbray de Kulf. I'm not going to

00:46:35.750 --> 00:46:38.469
say that again. Just Chamberlain's coach. You're

00:46:38.469 --> 00:46:41.110
getting better at the pronunciations. I'm not

00:46:41.110 --> 00:46:42.949
getting better at the pronunciations, Ben. Thank

00:46:42.949 --> 00:46:46.150
you for that. My French pronunciation especially

00:46:46.150 --> 00:46:47.909
is bad, although that's Dutch, I think. I've

00:46:47.909 --> 00:46:49.809
got to encourage you. We're in this together.

00:46:51.730 --> 00:46:54.940
Yeah, we win together, we lose together. So yeah,

00:46:55.000 --> 00:46:58.260
he'd fallen out of his coach. VBK, as I'm going

00:46:58.260 --> 00:47:00.300
to call him, preferring a domineering coaching

00:47:00.300 --> 00:47:02.320
style, which had worked in college, but obviously

00:47:02.320 --> 00:47:06.800
grated on NBA superstars. Russell, as coach,

00:47:07.119 --> 00:47:10.559
understood the Lakers' vulnerabilities. Jerry

00:47:10.559 --> 00:47:14.280
West had a hamstring injury at this point, and

00:47:14.280 --> 00:47:17.000
they had a poor guard rotation, so he ordered

00:47:17.000 --> 00:47:19.059
the Celtics to push with pace and relentless

00:47:19.059 --> 00:47:23.039
fast breaks. Celtics ended up leading throughout

00:47:23.039 --> 00:47:25.789
most of the game. Early in the fourth, Chamberlain

00:47:25.789 --> 00:47:28.130
had picked up his fifth foul. For those of you

00:47:28.130 --> 00:47:29.769
who don't know, you can get fouled out in basketball.

00:47:30.030 --> 00:47:32.730
If you get six fouls during a match, that's your

00:47:32.730 --> 00:47:34.730
game done. You have to go back to the bench at

00:47:34.730 --> 00:47:36.690
that point. So he had five fouls at this point.

00:47:36.929 --> 00:47:38.909
He never fouled out a game in his career. He

00:47:38.909 --> 00:47:40.369
could do that in the Association of Football

00:47:40.369 --> 00:47:43.210
sometimes. Get rid of this systematic fouling.

00:47:43.250 --> 00:47:46.090
You can have a sub, but you can fuck off and

00:47:46.090 --> 00:47:49.300
get off on the bench. It's very subjective to

00:47:49.300 --> 00:47:52.320
the referee's opinion in football, as in persistent

00:47:52.320 --> 00:47:54.119
fouling will get you a yellow card, but that's

00:47:54.119 --> 00:47:57.239
up to the referee to be the judge of that. So

00:47:57.239 --> 00:48:00.219
he obviously was on five fouls, but also Russell

00:48:00.219 --> 00:48:02.820
was on five fouls and Sam Jones was on five fouls.

00:48:02.820 --> 00:48:04.840
That massively hampered, more than anything,

00:48:04.940 --> 00:48:07.420
Russell's ability to defend Chamberlain because

00:48:07.420 --> 00:48:10.119
one more foul and he's out. There were seven

00:48:10.119 --> 00:48:12.159
minutes left. Lakers got a break they needed

00:48:12.159 --> 00:48:15.300
when Jerry West drew a foul on Sam Jones. So

00:48:15.300 --> 00:48:17.559
that ended his game, it ended his series, and

00:48:17.559 --> 00:48:19.380
it ended his Hall of Fame career. That was the

00:48:19.380 --> 00:48:22.139
last action of his game. But he got a standing

00:48:22.139 --> 00:48:24.139
ovation from both sets of fans on his way out,

00:48:24.179 --> 00:48:26.880
which is nice because he's another Hall of Famer.

00:48:27.420 --> 00:48:30.539
So just over five minutes remaining, Celtics

00:48:30.539 --> 00:48:33.239
up by nine points. Wilt went up for a rebound

00:48:33.239 --> 00:48:35.840
but came down limping. He went to the bench with

00:48:35.840 --> 00:48:38.469
a knee injury. He claimed later... that he hit

00:48:38.469 --> 00:48:40.989
his knee coming down, although footage from it

00:48:40.989 --> 00:48:43.010
doesn't actually show that. It doesn't obviously

00:48:43.010 --> 00:48:45.130
rule out a tweak making him think he struck something,

00:48:45.349 --> 00:48:48.489
but nevertheless, he tried to resume, but it

00:48:48.489 --> 00:48:49.789
appeared he could barely walk through. It's a

00:48:49.789 --> 00:48:51.730
bit fucking bold to accuse a geezer of lying.

00:48:52.550 --> 00:48:55.090
I'm not accusing him of lying. No, not you. But

00:48:55.090 --> 00:48:58.809
this is relevant. The narrative, that feels the

00:48:58.809 --> 00:49:02.869
most improbable likelihood. I think it's game

00:49:02.869 --> 00:49:05.989
seven is the point, and this is relevant, because...

00:49:06.679 --> 00:49:09.519
This is relevant with Bill Russell. He was benched.

00:49:09.579 --> 00:49:12.619
Backup centre Mel Counts admirably steadied the

00:49:12.619 --> 00:49:14.760
Lakers and they surged to close the gap to just

00:49:14.760 --> 00:49:17.639
a point with two minutes left. Chamberlain at

00:49:17.639 --> 00:49:20.000
this point told his coach that he was ready to

00:49:20.000 --> 00:49:23.119
return. The coach, in a stunning moment of pride

00:49:23.119 --> 00:49:24.860
or stubbornness, refused, saying, we're doing

00:49:24.860 --> 00:49:27.460
just fine without you. It was the coach's final

00:49:27.460 --> 00:49:31.599
game coaching the Lakers. This may well be a

00:49:31.599 --> 00:49:34.840
considerable factor towards that. To be fair

00:49:34.840 --> 00:49:36.980
to the coach, to give him a bit of defence, Counts

00:49:36.980 --> 00:49:39.320
had fouls to give and Chamberlain didn't and

00:49:39.320 --> 00:49:40.619
there was only two minutes left on the clock.

00:49:41.239 --> 00:49:43.679
However, as time ticked on and they needed points,

00:49:43.860 --> 00:49:46.239
that argument began to wane a little bit. Boston

00:49:46.239 --> 00:49:48.780
were four points up late in the game. Lakers

00:49:48.780 --> 00:49:50.920
got the last score, but it wasn't enough. The

00:49:50.920 --> 00:49:56.000
game ended 108 -106 with Chamberlain sat on the

00:49:56.000 --> 00:49:58.710
sidelines. Benched by the coach at this point.

00:49:58.989 --> 00:50:01.690
And the Celtics have won the 1969 NBA Finals.

00:50:01.730 --> 00:50:03.630
The balloons never fell. They were the first

00:50:03.630 --> 00:50:05.429
team to come back from a 2 -0 deficit to win

00:50:05.429 --> 00:50:07.469
the championship. It was Russell's 11th and final

00:50:07.469 --> 00:50:10.550
title in his final ever NBA game. The first ever

00:50:10.550 --> 00:50:12.769
Finals MVP award was given that year as well.

00:50:12.809 --> 00:50:14.710
And it was given to Jerry West, who remains the

00:50:14.710 --> 00:50:16.869
only player to win the award from a losing side,

00:50:17.050 --> 00:50:20.090
even to this day. West, who's another Hall of

00:50:20.090 --> 00:50:23.449
Famer and legend, considered retirement after

00:50:23.449 --> 00:50:25.269
the game. Such was the pain of losing the series.

00:50:25.409 --> 00:50:27.960
He didn't. And he won his first title in 1972,

00:50:28.280 --> 00:50:29.960
so it was a good job he didn't. First and only

00:50:29.960 --> 00:50:33.539
title, I think it was. But as we mentioned, they

00:50:33.539 --> 00:50:35.760
were friends. They were massive friends, Wilt

00:50:35.760 --> 00:50:37.420
and Russell. But the first time they fell out,

00:50:37.500 --> 00:50:40.659
first and only time they fell out, was not long

00:50:40.659 --> 00:50:44.360
after this. Russell was at a university, and

00:50:44.360 --> 00:50:45.960
he was speaking to some students, but he was

00:50:45.960 --> 00:50:47.539
unaware that there was a reporter in the crowd

00:50:47.539 --> 00:50:50.239
writing down his every word. He never forgave,

00:50:50.300 --> 00:50:52.239
basically he said he could never forgive Chamberlain

00:50:52.239 --> 00:50:54.039
for the moment of going off during that game.

00:50:54.139 --> 00:50:56.099
He said that any injury short of a broken leg

00:50:56.099 --> 00:50:59.239
or broken back isn't good enough to go off during

00:50:59.239 --> 00:51:03.199
game seven. I think it's obviously, it's a question

00:51:03.199 --> 00:51:05.380
of respect for your friend and respect for the

00:51:05.380 --> 00:51:06.960
game, I think more than anything. I don't know

00:51:06.960 --> 00:51:09.219
if it's a personal thing in that he wanted to

00:51:09.219 --> 00:51:11.739
beat the best. He wanted to be the best by beating

00:51:11.739 --> 00:51:13.820
the best and he thought that Chamberlain had

00:51:13.820 --> 00:51:15.559
worked him at the moment. Yeah, but it's probably

00:51:15.559 --> 00:51:20.469
also born out of frustration. you know rather

00:51:20.469 --> 00:51:23.230
than like disappointment frustration as opposed

00:51:23.230 --> 00:51:25.130
to actually thinking that he's like a bottler

00:51:25.130 --> 00:51:28.050
it's probably more just like you know could you

00:51:28.050 --> 00:51:34.409
have what if how would that have ended like I

00:51:34.409 --> 00:51:36.489
suppose when you've already won 10 rings would

00:51:36.489 --> 00:51:41.230
you rather win 10 rings and see your mate score

00:51:41.230 --> 00:51:42.789
the winning point in the last minute when you

00:51:42.789 --> 00:51:44.949
know he's capable of it or would you rather win

00:51:44.949 --> 00:51:47.780
that 11th ring and Less than perfect circumstances.

00:51:48.840 --> 00:51:51.139
Yeah, you're up for the fight, aren't you? I

00:51:51.139 --> 00:51:53.079
mean, he's a winner. He's a winner, so he obviously

00:51:53.079 --> 00:51:55.300
wants to win, but he doesn't want to win properly.

00:51:55.480 --> 00:51:57.300
But if you won that many, then you might as well

00:51:57.300 --> 00:52:00.760
win some good ones, right? Yeah, and it was his

00:52:00.760 --> 00:52:03.219
last ever game as well. So yeah, it kind of shattered

00:52:03.219 --> 00:52:06.559
their friendship. It was a while without a word

00:52:06.559 --> 00:52:10.059
between them, but later they reconciled. They

00:52:10.059 --> 00:52:13.239
were in a room together just for some event or

00:52:13.239 --> 00:52:16.539
some broadcast or something like that. Russell

00:52:16.539 --> 00:52:18.340
went over to Chamberlain and he just said, I'm

00:52:18.340 --> 00:52:20.280
sorry for what I said. And that was it. That

00:52:20.280 --> 00:52:22.360
was all. That's all that was needed. That's all

00:52:22.360 --> 00:52:24.679
that was needed. That's really cool. I mean,

00:52:24.679 --> 00:52:27.639
two really interesting guys who dominated an

00:52:27.639 --> 00:52:31.860
era of the sport just before it exploded, really.

00:52:32.000 --> 00:52:36.519
Probably fed quite heavily into, you know, the

00:52:36.519 --> 00:52:40.000
tone. They set the scene for Kareem Abdul -Jabbar,

00:52:40.099 --> 00:52:42.579
certainly. And then, obviously, it became massive

00:52:42.579 --> 00:52:45.300
because of Bird and Magic. And they were just...

00:52:45.550 --> 00:52:47.389
legend of the sport and you and i was saying

00:52:47.389 --> 00:52:52.150
um before we started recording that uh that's

00:52:52.150 --> 00:52:54.030
one of the unique features of basketball isn't

00:52:54.030 --> 00:52:57.449
it is that it's it's defined by the individuals

00:52:57.449 --> 00:53:01.269
more than than most team sports perhaps even

00:53:01.269 --> 00:53:04.130
any it's it's easier to define it by the individual

00:53:04.130 --> 00:53:06.010
i mean football is not dissimilar i mean football

00:53:06.010 --> 00:53:08.369
you have obviously 11 players in the team maybe

00:53:08.369 --> 00:53:10.809
18 25 in the squad maybe even less than that

00:53:10.809 --> 00:53:14.679
depending on the era uh basketball five players

00:53:14.679 --> 00:53:18.099
starting, maybe ten players realistically on

00:53:18.099 --> 00:53:20.719
rotation, maybe six. Six who we use for most

00:53:20.719 --> 00:53:21.900
of the game. You might have a sixth man, might

00:53:21.900 --> 00:53:24.079
even have a seventh man. More so nowadays. There's

00:53:24.079 --> 00:53:25.920
more levels of rotation. But back in those days,

00:53:26.079 --> 00:53:28.260
five or six players who played the vast majority

00:53:28.260 --> 00:53:31.400
of the minutes and it's obviously very easy to

00:53:31.400 --> 00:53:33.780
be an individual in that sport and to dominate

00:53:33.780 --> 00:53:37.320
as an individual. Dominate as a team, dominate

00:53:37.320 --> 00:53:39.679
with a couple of good individuals and then some

00:53:39.679 --> 00:53:43.389
good filler around. But you can also associate

00:53:43.389 --> 00:53:46.329
your team's success more directly to the talent

00:53:46.329 --> 00:53:49.989
of the individual. Oh, yeah. In a way that you

00:53:49.989 --> 00:53:56.449
can't in football, rugby, hockey, cricket, certainly.

00:53:57.110 --> 00:54:01.949
No, you can point to a single 1984 draft and

00:54:01.949 --> 00:54:05.150
think, has anyone in those first two picks been

00:54:05.150 --> 00:54:07.800
sensible enough to pick? jordan yeah had a brain

00:54:07.800 --> 00:54:09.920
yeah how different the league would have been

00:54:09.920 --> 00:54:12.539
because chicago would not have won six titles

00:54:12.539 --> 00:54:15.539
in the 1990s had they not drafted michael jordan

00:54:15.539 --> 00:54:18.900
no yeah yeah and like and and i think that's

00:54:18.900 --> 00:54:20.760
what's interesting about this sport and i think

00:54:20.760 --> 00:54:22.880
that's why we've enjoyed talking about these

00:54:22.880 --> 00:54:25.880
two guys and it's probably why we're gonna obviously

00:54:25.880 --> 00:54:28.159
we're gonna talk a little bit about jordan as

00:54:28.159 --> 00:54:30.300
well But we could also, you know, there's plenty

00:54:30.300 --> 00:54:31.500
of others you could talk about. We could talk

00:54:31.500 --> 00:54:34.400
about Bird. We could talk about Magic. We could

00:54:34.400 --> 00:54:36.860
talk about Shaq. We could talk about Kobe. We

00:54:36.860 --> 00:54:39.639
could talk about Curry. or LeBron even, I haven't

00:54:39.639 --> 00:54:42.739
mentioned. I know you can list greats off in

00:54:42.739 --> 00:54:45.199
any sport, but these guys are all winners. They're

00:54:45.199 --> 00:54:46.860
not just someone that you consider to be good.

00:54:46.940 --> 00:54:48.239
They're all multiple winners and they're all

00:54:48.239 --> 00:54:51.639
directly responsible for era -defining success

00:54:51.639 --> 00:54:54.780
for their franchise. I think it's notable. I

00:54:54.780 --> 00:54:56.260
know this only seems like a minor thing, but

00:54:56.260 --> 00:54:58.000
I think it's notable that you basically just

00:54:58.000 --> 00:55:00.880
single -named all of those people. But even people

00:55:00.880 --> 00:55:02.480
who aren't massively keen on basketball will

00:55:02.480 --> 00:55:04.900
know who Kobe is, will know who Shaq is, will

00:55:04.900 --> 00:55:07.139
know who LeBron is. Very good observation, mate.

00:55:07.219 --> 00:55:10.320
Or Magic, or Larry. Because that's the point,

00:55:10.340 --> 00:55:12.500
isn't it? You've nailed it, really, is that we

00:55:12.500 --> 00:55:15.139
conceded at the beginning of this episode that

00:55:15.139 --> 00:55:18.159
we're not conventional enthusiasts of basketball,

00:55:18.360 --> 00:55:20.940
but yet I know every good player from every era.

00:55:21.500 --> 00:55:23.559
Well, certainly a lot of them, yeah. And I think

00:55:23.559 --> 00:55:26.440
the era we're in now is an interesting one. We

00:55:26.440 --> 00:55:30.219
say there's parity. There's no overall superstar

00:55:30.219 --> 00:55:34.079
to the same extent there was. Obviously, LeBron

00:55:34.079 --> 00:55:36.559
is... still very old at this point yeah incredibly

00:55:36.559 --> 00:55:39.340
still going but he's i mean there's plenty of

00:55:39.340 --> 00:55:41.659
people we could talk about uh we will talk about

00:55:41.659 --> 00:55:42.800
mj we're probably gonna talk about a couple of

00:55:42.800 --> 00:55:44.760
coaches but can i do something slightly radical

00:55:44.760 --> 00:55:49.019
can i talk about commissioner stern because yeah

00:55:49.019 --> 00:55:52.019
i i i was surprised when i saw this on your on

00:55:52.019 --> 00:55:54.619
your list but yeah please do yeah just only because

00:55:54.619 --> 00:55:58.360
like me and you are not friends of the establishment

00:55:58.360 --> 00:56:01.889
as a rule of thumb um Quite the opposite, in

00:56:01.889 --> 00:56:04.050
fact, if anyone who listens to a Champions League

00:56:04.050 --> 00:56:07.170
episode will know. Yeah, and so I wouldn't ordinarily

00:56:07.170 --> 00:56:11.949
give someone in a corporate position kudos. Yeah,

00:56:11.969 --> 00:56:14.050
or a disproportionate amount of praise. And perhaps

00:56:14.050 --> 00:56:15.869
the only reason I'm doing so is because anyone

00:56:15.869 --> 00:56:17.510
who loves basketball will tell me that I'm an

00:56:17.510 --> 00:56:19.329
idiot and I don't know the full story and I'm

00:56:19.329 --> 00:56:21.170
just speaking from a position of ignorance. And

00:56:21.170 --> 00:56:23.289
that may be so, and that would be a fair critique

00:56:23.289 --> 00:56:30.460
because I've only scratched the surface. He seems

00:56:30.460 --> 00:56:34.420
like a pivotal. It would be undeniable, even

00:56:34.420 --> 00:56:38.579
if I'm waxing too lyrical about this guy, to

00:56:38.579 --> 00:56:42.639
say that he wasn't a major influence in what

00:56:42.639 --> 00:56:46.460
the NBA has become and it wasn't built on the

00:56:46.460 --> 00:56:49.480
foundations he laid and the work that he then

00:56:49.480 --> 00:56:54.159
did over a 25 -year period. 30 years he was commissioner

00:56:54.159 --> 00:56:57.039
for, which is incredible. I mean, because he

00:56:57.039 --> 00:56:59.000
basically, the reason I bring him up is because

00:56:59.000 --> 00:57:01.639
he's responsible for a massive expansion of the

00:57:01.639 --> 00:57:05.960
NBA. Commissioner from 84 to 2014. And in that

00:57:05.960 --> 00:57:08.380
time, he brought in the Charlotte Hornets, Miami

00:57:08.380 --> 00:57:11.199
Heat, Orlando Magic, Minnesota Timberwolves,

00:57:11.199 --> 00:57:12.599
who obviously we've been talking about earlier,

00:57:12.760 --> 00:57:15.760
and brought the total up to 27 teams. And then

00:57:15.760 --> 00:57:18.880
he also expanded into Canada and the Raptors,

00:57:18.880 --> 00:57:20.960
Toronto Raptors and the Vancouver Grizzlies were

00:57:20.960 --> 00:57:22.860
brought into the league. And there's one other

00:57:22.860 --> 00:57:24.179
that's missing, and I can't remember who it is,

00:57:24.219 --> 00:57:26.820
but the total's now 30, as we mentioned at the

00:57:26.820 --> 00:57:29.500
beginning. Do you know who it is? Can you do

00:57:29.500 --> 00:57:34.099
the deduction? New Orleans Pelicans. Ah, yes.

00:57:34.440 --> 00:57:36.920
Very well done. The thing that I thought was

00:57:36.920 --> 00:57:39.079
really cool, and I think is actually genuinely

00:57:39.079 --> 00:57:42.900
innovative, and to his credit, is what he stopped

00:57:42.900 --> 00:57:45.619
doing was he stopped marketing the league's teams.

00:57:46.360 --> 00:57:48.619
And he turned the focus onto his star players.

00:57:49.199 --> 00:57:52.639
We've just illustrated the efficacy of that ourselves,

00:57:52.900 --> 00:57:56.059
just in general conversation. But effectively,

00:57:56.079 --> 00:57:59.199
he made your Johnsons, your Byrds, your Jordans,

00:57:59.199 --> 00:58:03.519
your Barclays, the stars of the show, and used

00:58:03.519 --> 00:58:07.920
that change in marketing strategy to expand the

00:58:07.920 --> 00:58:11.760
game internationally, most notably through the

00:58:11.760 --> 00:58:16.110
development of the Dream Team. the 1992 US Olympic

00:58:16.110 --> 00:58:20.289
team. And Stern was a big, big factor in influencing

00:58:20.289 --> 00:58:23.489
the IOC. I think it was to allow professional

00:58:23.489 --> 00:58:25.630
players from the NBA to participate in the Olympics

00:58:25.630 --> 00:58:27.949
because obviously it's famously, the Olympics

00:58:27.949 --> 00:58:31.010
itself is famously amateur as a rule of thumb.

00:58:31.030 --> 00:58:32.969
Although that is obviously not the modern Olympics

00:58:32.969 --> 00:58:35.769
as you and I recognize it. Not anymore, no. But

00:58:35.769 --> 00:58:39.409
it was until the 80s. Yeah. And it still is in

00:58:39.409 --> 00:58:41.750
certain sports. It's just that others have adapted

00:58:41.750 --> 00:58:44.050
because they realize that it's necessary to have

00:58:44.050 --> 00:58:46.210
them in there. A lot of this is built on marketing,

00:58:46.269 --> 00:58:47.849
but it's with the players at the heart of it.

00:58:48.510 --> 00:58:50.750
Which is the right thing to do. We've already

00:58:50.750 --> 00:58:53.650
shown that it is a player -driven sport. And

00:58:53.650 --> 00:58:55.429
he got that. Yeah, and that led to commercial

00:58:55.429 --> 00:58:57.849
agreements with the likes of Nike and television

00:58:57.849 --> 00:59:00.590
rights domestically and internationally. That's

00:59:00.590 --> 00:59:04.190
the reason the NBA blew up. But he's also responsible

00:59:04.190 --> 00:59:07.530
for some other things that I think are... noteworthy

00:59:07.530 --> 00:59:11.369
and at least to his credit even if I'm perhaps

00:59:11.369 --> 00:59:16.130
attributing too much goodwill to him but he publicly

00:59:16.130 --> 00:59:18.489
supported Magic Johnson when he revealed that

00:59:18.489 --> 00:59:22.010
he was HIV positive in 1991 and that the reason

00:59:22.010 --> 00:59:24.030
I mentioned that is because that was during a

00:59:24.030 --> 00:59:26.590
period of time where that virus was just demonized

00:59:26.590 --> 00:59:30.090
and subject to a lot of rumor it's significant

00:59:30.090 --> 00:59:32.829
like for anyone who knows much about the AIDS

00:59:32.829 --> 00:59:37.190
crisis The ignorance behind it was one of the

00:59:37.190 --> 00:59:41.150
key factors in the spread of it and the delay

00:59:41.150 --> 00:59:43.929
in reasonable treatments being developed, which

00:59:43.929 --> 00:59:46.070
obviously have been developed now. And it's now

00:59:46.070 --> 00:59:47.969
not a death sentence as it was at the time. And

00:59:47.969 --> 00:59:50.210
one of the big driving forces behind that was

00:59:50.210 --> 00:59:54.050
prominent people getting it. Freddie Mercury

00:59:54.050 --> 00:59:55.889
being one example and Magic Johnson being another

00:59:55.889 --> 01:00:00.809
example, testing HIV positive in 1991. It brought

01:00:00.809 --> 01:00:03.670
it to the public's attention. Magic Johnson particularly

01:00:03.670 --> 01:00:08.250
being a heterosexual sportsman and not fitting

01:00:08.250 --> 01:00:11.769
the bill of the stereotype of someone who would

01:00:11.769 --> 01:00:15.090
get the disease made a big difference. They said

01:00:15.090 --> 01:00:17.309
that only homosexuals and drug abusers effectively

01:00:17.309 --> 01:00:20.730
got it. That was essentially the narrative at

01:00:20.730 --> 01:00:24.929
the time. And it was wholly misplaced, ignorant,

01:00:25.070 --> 01:00:29.510
as you say, irresponsible. You can frame it however

01:00:29.510 --> 01:00:32.469
you like. It was stupid. But Stern did what,

01:00:32.489 --> 01:00:36.190
you know, what any other level -headed decent

01:00:36.190 --> 01:00:39.449
person would do. And he read the medical literature,

01:00:39.789 --> 01:00:42.750
consulted experts. And he's effectively credited

01:00:42.750 --> 01:00:45.070
with informing league owners and players and

01:00:45.070 --> 01:00:47.349
sponsors and the public more generally because

01:00:47.349 --> 01:00:49.989
of the reach of the NBA. And it also just had

01:00:49.989 --> 01:00:54.349
a tangential impact, which I... the way these

01:00:54.349 --> 01:00:57.989
things do for the better. It introduced player

01:00:57.989 --> 01:01:01.289
safety protocols, so you're not allowed to play

01:01:01.289 --> 01:01:04.110
when you're bleeding, those sorts of things.

01:01:04.230 --> 01:01:06.590
Kind of similar, not the same, but kind of similar

01:01:06.590 --> 01:01:08.949
to the sort of stuff we talk about with CTE and

01:01:08.949 --> 01:01:11.670
concussion and head injuries. Just like proper

01:01:11.670 --> 01:01:16.550
informed analysis leading to improvements. Yeah,

01:01:16.590 --> 01:01:19.250
on the back of expert opinion, not on the back

01:01:19.250 --> 01:01:23.480
of vibes. yeah or emotional decision making bad

01:01:23.480 --> 01:01:27.980
vibes as well um yes yeah and he also he did

01:01:27.980 --> 01:01:29.920
other good things like he enormously improved

01:01:29.920 --> 01:01:32.260
anti -doping measures in the sport obviously

01:01:32.260 --> 01:01:35.579
the 80s is famously dope heavy and we'll probably

01:01:35.579 --> 01:01:38.400
touch on that a lot more in like cycling and

01:01:38.400 --> 01:01:41.000
athletics and stuff when when they come around

01:01:41.000 --> 01:01:44.199
but yeah he uh he pushed that forward in basketball

01:01:44.199 --> 01:01:46.980
uh and he also advocated for the one and done

01:01:46.980 --> 01:01:49.880
rule uh which is the the minimum age for entry

01:01:49.880 --> 01:01:53.659
into the to the draft i think yeah 19 years old

01:01:53.659 --> 01:01:55.500
yeah you get you get one so you had to do at

01:01:55.500 --> 01:01:57.199
least a year of college yeah before you could

01:01:57.199 --> 01:01:59.639
get drafted to stop people being drafted directly

01:01:59.639 --> 01:02:02.519
out of high school which was very common there's

01:02:02.519 --> 01:02:04.960
actually a history to this like that the you

01:02:04.960 --> 01:02:07.619
used to have to do your full college four years

01:02:08.059 --> 01:02:10.099
Or at least wait until your graduating class

01:02:10.099 --> 01:02:11.760
is done. Because this actually caught Wilt Chamberlain

01:02:11.760 --> 01:02:14.019
out. Wilt Chamberlain wanted to go pro early

01:02:14.019 --> 01:02:17.320
because he was so dominant in college ball and

01:02:17.320 --> 01:02:19.699
so ready to make some money that he wanted to

01:02:19.699 --> 01:02:21.960
go. So he quit college after three years, but

01:02:21.960 --> 01:02:23.880
he wasn't allowed to be drafted for the NBA for

01:02:23.880 --> 01:02:26.500
a year. So he did go off and play a year for

01:02:26.500 --> 01:02:28.619
the Holland Globetrotters, including touring

01:02:28.619 --> 01:02:31.440
the Soviet Union. And he made like $50 ,000 from

01:02:31.440 --> 01:02:35.500
it. Nice. But then they scrapped that rule. There

01:02:35.500 --> 01:02:39.489
was a series of like... legal challenges to that

01:02:39.489 --> 01:02:43.070
which they ended up scrapping it and a couple

01:02:43.070 --> 01:02:45.050
of 18 year olds got drafted straight out of high

01:02:45.050 --> 01:02:47.889
school but then it was 20 years before anyone

01:02:47.889 --> 01:02:49.829
else did but then it really kicked off in the

01:02:49.829 --> 01:02:53.750
in the 90s I think Shaq and Kobe and that generation

01:02:53.750 --> 01:02:56.269
so many of them LeBron as well drafted straight

01:02:56.269 --> 01:02:58.730
out of high school 18 years old don't get me

01:02:58.730 --> 01:03:01.630
wrong they've gone on to do good things but there's

01:03:01.630 --> 01:03:04.559
a lot to be said for an education and a bit of

01:03:04.559 --> 01:03:07.079
extra coaching yeah and a year an extra year

01:03:07.079 --> 01:03:09.400
to grow because you're not really fully grown

01:03:09.400 --> 01:03:11.980
at the age of 18 a lot of time well and also

01:03:11.980 --> 01:03:14.079
even though these are big guys you go from you

01:03:14.079 --> 01:03:16.840
go from no money to big lucrative contracts as

01:03:16.840 --> 01:03:19.440
well and yeah and that sort of thing and look

01:03:19.440 --> 01:03:21.360
you know as long as you've got good people around

01:03:21.360 --> 01:03:22.739
you i guess it doesn't really make any difference

01:03:22.739 --> 01:03:25.320
but i think that was his motivation for it because

01:03:25.320 --> 01:03:27.780
stern stern was on record as saying if these

01:03:27.780 --> 01:03:29.980
kids have the ability to get a little bit more

01:03:29.980 --> 01:03:33.440
maturity, a little more coaching, a little bit

01:03:33.440 --> 01:03:35.519
more experience overall, that's good. And that

01:03:35.519 --> 01:03:38.079
reference, I know why you're humming is because

01:03:38.079 --> 01:03:41.159
the terminology these kids was taken as a condescending

01:03:41.159 --> 01:03:43.360
reference to young black men. Pissed a lot of

01:03:43.360 --> 01:03:45.840
people off, which I think is fair enough. And

01:03:45.840 --> 01:03:49.539
he also had, he introduced dress code, which

01:03:49.539 --> 01:03:51.760
Allen Iverson famously said, it was a deliberate

01:03:51.760 --> 01:03:54.280
attempt to target people who dress like me, who

01:03:54.280 --> 01:03:56.380
dress like hip hop. So he's not, this guy's not

01:03:56.380 --> 01:04:00.340
perfect. No, it strikes me as just a little bit

01:04:00.340 --> 01:04:02.460
similar to the NFL, you know, with the celebrations.

01:04:02.599 --> 01:04:04.900
Yes. We've talked about before. Yes, yes, yes.

01:04:05.219 --> 01:04:06.260
And this is America. I'm not sure we've talked

01:04:06.260 --> 01:04:08.760
about it here before, but we have. It's a white

01:04:08.760 --> 01:04:10.380
conservative place, ultimately, even to this

01:04:10.380 --> 01:04:13.800
day. Just better than it used to be. Or at least

01:04:13.800 --> 01:04:15.219
at this point was better than it used to be.

01:04:15.219 --> 01:04:17.780
I'm not sure about now. But anyway, we digress.

01:04:17.960 --> 01:04:21.420
And he was actually accused at one point of being

01:04:21.420 --> 01:04:24.500
a modern day plantation owner, which I think

01:04:24.500 --> 01:04:26.789
was... understood to be more of a dig at the

01:04:26.789 --> 01:04:28.869
white leadership of the league compared to the

01:04:28.869 --> 01:04:30.829
predominantly black player rosters rather than

01:04:30.829 --> 01:04:35.690
him acting in that way. White people making a

01:04:35.690 --> 01:04:38.070
lot of money off the labour of black people,

01:04:38.130 --> 01:04:41.469
essentially. Would I presume be the comparison

01:04:41.469 --> 01:04:46.110
there? The implication here is that and I think

01:04:46.110 --> 01:04:49.570
the reason I'm stating this as overtly as I am

01:04:49.570 --> 01:04:51.750
is that there was sort of like a racial undertone

01:04:51.750 --> 01:04:54.380
to some of this. I think that that would be a

01:04:54.380 --> 01:04:57.500
misrepresentation to be honest because whilst

01:04:57.500 --> 01:05:00.559
he was an imperfect man I think on balance he

01:05:00.559 --> 01:05:02.000
probably got more right for the league than he

01:05:02.000 --> 01:05:06.420
got wrong and a lot of African -American players

01:05:06.420 --> 01:05:11.039
got opportunities under his stewardship that

01:05:11.039 --> 01:05:13.420
they would not have had otherwise and that's

01:05:13.420 --> 01:05:15.039
not to say that they wouldn't have deserved it

01:05:15.039 --> 01:05:17.159
and the system he implemented shouldn't have

01:05:17.159 --> 01:05:20.219
been you know he's some sort of like oracle for

01:05:20.219 --> 01:05:21.860
having done it that's not what I'm saying but

01:05:21.860 --> 01:05:24.880
like it'd be very It's a juxtaposition to argue

01:05:24.880 --> 01:05:27.780
that this man had a problem with black people,

01:05:27.920 --> 01:05:31.320
given how much he championed their success. No,

01:05:31.380 --> 01:05:35.320
he's just an old white guy. Yeah. And anyway,

01:05:35.480 --> 01:05:40.519
to give that some independent flavor, as opposed

01:05:40.519 --> 01:05:44.019
to the musings of my mind, LeBron, Michael Jordan.

01:05:44.510 --> 01:05:49.070
Magic, Kobe, who actually ended up dying 25 days

01:05:49.070 --> 01:05:51.769
later in his well -documented and ill -fated

01:05:51.769 --> 01:05:55.309
helicopter journey. They all attended his funeral

01:05:55.309 --> 01:05:58.590
and mourned him. He was an innovator. Basketball

01:05:58.590 --> 01:06:00.690
definitely wouldn't be where it is without him.

01:06:00.989 --> 01:06:05.289
No. Yeah. He did oversee six relocations, which

01:06:05.289 --> 01:06:07.590
really fucking annoyed people, as you might imagine.

01:06:07.630 --> 01:06:12.530
I know, but it's American sport. It's a systemic

01:06:12.530 --> 01:06:15.980
problem. Two lockouts, the only two in NBA's

01:06:15.980 --> 01:06:18.320
history, occurred under his stewardship as well,

01:06:18.400 --> 01:06:20.260
basically because he was a brutal negotiator.

01:06:20.639 --> 01:06:21.960
I think that's when they made the plantation

01:06:21.960 --> 01:06:26.400
reference. But yeah, anyway, I just thought it

01:06:26.400 --> 01:06:30.340
was interesting. I thought that was a context

01:06:30.340 --> 01:06:35.380
that is not often seen in other sports. You don't

01:06:35.380 --> 01:06:37.880
usually see one sort of corporate figurehead

01:06:37.880 --> 01:06:40.380
having such a major impact on the development

01:06:40.380 --> 01:06:44.139
of a league. Yeah. and not pissing everyone off

01:06:44.139 --> 01:06:46.559
in the process. It's a bit similar probably to,

01:06:46.639 --> 01:06:49.380
not quite with the same sort of, some of the

01:06:49.380 --> 01:06:51.460
same undertones, but Pete Rizal a little bit

01:06:51.460 --> 01:06:54.699
in the NFL was very well respected. He was NFL

01:06:54.699 --> 01:06:56.860
commissioner for a long time and made a huge

01:06:56.860 --> 01:07:01.039
change to that league in a way that current Roger

01:07:01.039 --> 01:07:04.420
Goodall leadership of the NFL probably won't

01:07:04.420 --> 01:07:09.079
be celebrated quite so much in the end. But anyway.

01:07:09.280 --> 01:07:13.119
Won't be revered. Yes. Unlike. A man who will

01:07:13.119 --> 01:07:15.960
always be revered forever and ever. Getting back

01:07:15.960 --> 01:07:17.340
to the players. You've been poised. You've been

01:07:17.340 --> 01:07:21.380
vibrating wanting to talk about this man. Since

01:07:21.380 --> 01:07:26.119
day one of this podcast. Michael Jordan. This

01:07:26.119 --> 01:07:28.820
is a guy that I idolise. He's putting it too

01:07:28.820 --> 01:07:30.980
high. Because I don't watch the sport enough.

01:07:31.159 --> 01:07:33.539
I think he's someone that just fascinates me.

01:07:33.679 --> 01:07:36.219
And engages me. He transcends this. He really

01:07:36.219 --> 01:07:38.260
does transcend this sport. You say this about

01:07:38.260 --> 01:07:41.719
a few people. But he is just... Bigger than basketball.

01:07:42.159 --> 01:07:45.860
He is just like Tiger Woods. Yeah, Usain Bolt.

01:07:46.039 --> 01:07:48.579
Very comfortable. Muhammad Ali. Yeah. That's

01:07:48.579 --> 01:07:51.380
the company this man is keeping. I mean, anybody

01:07:51.380 --> 01:07:54.320
who's seen The Last Dance and anyone who has

01:07:54.320 --> 01:07:56.820
a Netflix subscription, which is basically every

01:07:56.820 --> 01:07:58.739
single person, I presume. I thought you were

01:07:58.739 --> 01:08:00.539
going to say Space Jam for a second there. Anyone

01:08:00.539 --> 01:08:03.159
who's seen Space Jam will know how good he is.

01:08:03.239 --> 01:08:05.360
I mean, the fact that he carries a cartoon movie

01:08:05.360 --> 01:08:07.639
is the only... human being in it for the majority

01:08:07.639 --> 01:08:09.820
of it does kind of tell its own story but um

01:08:09.820 --> 01:08:12.920
it holds up i watched it not long ago it holds

01:08:12.920 --> 01:08:15.880
up it's a good film like anybody's seen the last

01:08:15.880 --> 01:08:17.859
dance we'll know really what i'm talking about

01:08:17.859 --> 01:08:19.699
here we're talking about the talent the aura

01:08:19.699 --> 01:08:22.119
the mentality i mean the mentality is scarcely

01:08:22.119 --> 01:08:27.199
comprehensible like terminator the terminator

01:08:27.199 --> 01:08:32.060
it it's it's a absolute Lack of acceptance in

01:08:32.060 --> 01:08:35.039
anything but 100%, anything but the best possible

01:08:35.039 --> 01:08:38.199
performance in himself and his teammates. On

01:08:38.199 --> 01:08:40.300
the court and in training. What you said about

01:08:40.300 --> 01:08:43.420
himself and his teammates, I think that's perfect

01:08:43.420 --> 01:08:45.640
actually. Because you were talking about Wilt

01:08:45.640 --> 01:08:48.100
Chamberlain earlier and saying how maybe his

01:08:48.100 --> 01:08:50.939
shortcoming was that, at least for a chunk of

01:08:50.939 --> 01:08:52.880
his career, he was in it for himself to a certain

01:08:52.880 --> 01:08:58.619
extent. MJ is not that guy. This is the ultimate

01:08:58.619 --> 01:09:03.609
team player. It's a bit similar to Wayne Gretzky

01:09:03.609 --> 01:09:06.810
and the understanding that you can't win by yourself.

01:09:07.029 --> 01:09:09.630
Even in a six people on the ice at once, five

01:09:09.630 --> 01:09:11.670
people on the court at once, you can't win by

01:09:11.670 --> 01:09:13.970
yourself. Otherwise, you'll just get double teamed

01:09:13.970 --> 01:09:16.670
six ways to Sunday, which MJ was early in his

01:09:16.670 --> 01:09:19.489
career a lot. You need those players around you

01:09:19.489 --> 01:09:22.510
so people have someone else to worry about. People

01:09:22.510 --> 01:09:25.010
are creating the space for you, creating the,

01:09:25.130 --> 01:09:27.829
you know, setting the screens for you, wherever

01:09:27.829 --> 01:09:32.119
else you need. Here's a couple of quotes from

01:09:32.119 --> 01:09:36.880
people. I just love this, right? So, Kobe called

01:09:36.880 --> 01:09:40.300
him Black Jesus. Like Kobe Bryant. Solid start.

01:09:40.579 --> 01:09:43.180
Yeah. Shaq said, you don't want to mess with

01:09:43.180 --> 01:09:47.739
God. You have to stay away from Mike. Which I

01:09:47.739 --> 01:09:52.899
think is, like, again, the hyperbole here. Jesus,

01:09:53.000 --> 01:09:56.239
God. My favorite one, though, is from... Roy

01:09:56.239 --> 01:09:59.720
Williams, and this is in The Last Dance. I love

01:09:59.720 --> 01:10:02.880
this. Yeah, Roy Williams was his assistant coach

01:10:02.880 --> 01:10:06.619
at college. And he said, Michael Jordan was the

01:10:06.619 --> 01:10:08.840
only player I ever saw who could turn it on and

01:10:08.840 --> 01:10:11.619
off whenever he wanted. And he never freaking

01:10:11.619 --> 01:10:17.439
turned it off. So good. That is such a great

01:10:17.439 --> 01:10:20.340
quote. And I also love the fact as well. I think

01:10:20.340 --> 01:10:22.640
I'm taking a lot from The Last Dance here for

01:10:22.640 --> 01:10:25.390
obvious reasons. In that show, they talk about

01:10:25.390 --> 01:10:27.409
when they go to Paris, and it was a preseason

01:10:27.409 --> 01:10:31.149
friendly, and he just puts on a show. I don't

01:10:31.149 --> 01:10:33.109
know how many he scored, 40, 50 points or whatever,

01:10:33.289 --> 01:10:35.069
maybe 60 points, doesn't really matter, just

01:10:35.069 --> 01:10:37.270
shitloads of points, dominated the game, Bulls

01:10:37.270 --> 01:10:40.010
won. And there was a journo, I think it is, he's

01:10:40.010 --> 01:10:42.189
describing him in the show, and he says he understood

01:10:42.189 --> 01:10:45.550
that there would be someone in that audience,

01:10:45.649 --> 01:10:47.949
that crowd, who'd come to see him, and it would

01:10:47.949 --> 01:10:51.189
be the only time in their life that they would

01:10:51.189 --> 01:10:53.609
get to see Michael Jordan. And he was like, they

01:10:53.609 --> 01:10:57.090
will get to see Michael Jordan. Not someone pretending

01:10:57.090 --> 01:10:59.670
to be him, not half -baked Michael Jordan. You

01:10:59.670 --> 01:11:03.289
got to see the man. Yeah. Yeah. It just makes

01:11:03.289 --> 01:11:05.609
me wonder how good he was. Like, the people spoke

01:11:05.609 --> 01:11:08.750
to speak of him in those terms. Like, this is

01:11:08.750 --> 01:11:13.029
elite level sport. The best of the best of the

01:11:13.029 --> 01:11:18.710
best. He came to the forefront at a time where,

01:11:18.770 --> 01:11:22.300
obviously, on the back of like, larry and magic

01:11:22.300 --> 01:11:26.500
it was a time in the 90s where network television

01:11:26.500 --> 01:11:30.140
had really taken off like everyone had good tvs

01:11:30.140 --> 01:11:32.199
in their homes it's been beamed into every home

01:11:32.199 --> 01:11:34.880
in america these games live every game of this

01:11:34.880 --> 01:11:37.600
series every law games are in the season and

01:11:37.600 --> 01:11:39.439
every sort of playoff game was being beamed in

01:11:39.439 --> 01:11:41.880
so these legendary moments that people remember

01:11:41.880 --> 01:11:43.880
and they had vcrs they could record it and watch

01:11:43.880 --> 01:11:47.260
it over and over again take the games like it's

01:11:47.260 --> 01:11:49.899
it's not quite the same as youtube levels or

01:11:49.899 --> 01:11:52.800
or you know other social media levels where you

01:11:52.800 --> 01:11:55.000
get the highlights immediately afterwards and

01:11:55.000 --> 01:11:57.699
you can watch it on repeat as much as you want

01:11:57.699 --> 01:11:59.600
but you you have that opportunity to a certain

01:11:59.600 --> 01:12:02.340
extent so it's not just like oh did you see the

01:12:02.340 --> 01:12:04.279
game last night oh no i didn't know well maybe

01:12:04.279 --> 01:12:06.260
you'll catch the highlights later it's like come

01:12:06.260 --> 01:12:07.539
over to my place and we'll watch the highlights

01:12:07.539 --> 01:12:09.720
together we'll fast forward through you know

01:12:09.720 --> 01:12:11.500
the boring bits and we'll get to his shots and

01:12:11.500 --> 01:12:14.979
i just it's it's a time where it was ripe for

01:12:14.979 --> 01:12:18.869
someone like that to burst out and he just He

01:12:18.869 --> 01:12:21.850
was just huge. He was huge. I mean, his shoe

01:12:21.850 --> 01:12:24.869
is still going, like the brand. He's made more

01:12:24.869 --> 01:12:27.149
from that than he has an entire basketball career

01:12:27.149 --> 01:12:30.550
combined. He's made enough that he's sustained

01:12:30.550 --> 01:12:32.789
a very large gambling addiction, if you believe

01:12:32.789 --> 01:12:35.989
the press, for many a year without going broke,

01:12:36.130 --> 01:12:38.390
which is impressive. Yeah, and I think he's on

01:12:38.390 --> 01:12:41.850
record of saying, you know, I just enjoy it.

01:12:41.890 --> 01:12:44.850
Like, I can afford it. Yeah, there was something

01:12:44.850 --> 01:12:47.189
like... people saying, oh, it's mad. He used

01:12:47.189 --> 01:12:48.930
to bet like $10 ,000 a game and someone would

01:12:48.930 --> 01:12:50.689
be like, well, work it out. Work out how much

01:12:50.689 --> 01:12:52.810
you earn in a year and how much Michael earns

01:12:52.810 --> 01:12:56.050
in a year and work out how much $10 ,000 is for

01:12:56.050 --> 01:12:58.510
him. It's like, that's like you betting 50 cents.

01:12:58.890 --> 01:13:01.449
Yeah. I mean, he's just a very, very, very wealthy

01:13:01.449 --> 01:13:04.569
dude. I mean, it fascinates me that he didn't

01:13:04.569 --> 01:13:09.829
go one in the draft. I mean, he was very good

01:13:09.829 --> 01:13:11.989
at college. I don't know. I've not looked into

01:13:11.989 --> 01:13:13.289
the reason behind this. I don't know if there

01:13:13.289 --> 01:13:15.449
were reasons. I don't know of the two people

01:13:15.449 --> 01:13:17.569
who went ahead of him. Am I right in saying one

01:13:17.569 --> 01:13:19.130
of the two people who went ahead of him is also

01:13:19.130 --> 01:13:22.689
a Hall of Famer? Yes. There is one of the guys

01:13:22.689 --> 01:13:25.170
who turns out to be a very, very good player

01:13:25.170 --> 01:13:28.489
as well. The film Air is quite good. Obviously,

01:13:28.489 --> 01:13:31.489
it's an exaggerated version of the story of through

01:13:31.489 --> 01:13:33.699
which Knight got their contract with him. In

01:13:33.699 --> 01:13:36.180
that, I think there's an interesting yarn or

01:13:36.180 --> 01:13:38.439
anecdote, I don't know how true it is, where

01:13:38.439 --> 01:13:40.680
they said that it brought to the attention of

01:13:40.680 --> 01:13:44.600
Nike Scout noticed him when at college basketball

01:13:44.600 --> 01:13:48.220
they had a really good player in his senior year

01:13:48.220 --> 01:13:51.319
who was dominating college basketball that year

01:13:51.319 --> 01:13:53.479
and the coach picked Jordan to throw the three

01:13:53.479 --> 01:13:56.539
to win the game. Oh yeah, I remember that. And

01:13:56.539 --> 01:13:58.220
he was like, why do they throw it to the rookie?

01:13:58.479 --> 01:14:00.859
Unless he's unbelievable, basically. The rookie

01:14:00.859 --> 01:14:03.460
with ice in his veins. Yeah, yeah. But yeah,

01:14:03.539 --> 01:14:06.659
he went third in the 1984 draft, which I think

01:14:06.659 --> 01:14:10.039
is pretty insane. Yeah, six NBA titles. Bulls

01:14:10.039 --> 01:14:12.159
only ever won titles with him. They're fourth

01:14:12.159 --> 01:14:14.819
on the all -time list. All won by Jordan. Which

01:14:14.819 --> 01:14:18.340
is mad. If anyone tries to tell you it was a

01:14:18.340 --> 01:14:21.659
great team, and it was, I guess, to undermine

01:14:21.659 --> 01:14:23.680
my own point, but if anyone tries to tell you

01:14:23.680 --> 01:14:25.500
it wasn't Jordan, it's just because they had

01:14:25.500 --> 01:14:28.819
a great team. Only Pippen won all six with him.

01:14:29.340 --> 01:14:32.000
Yeah, so the other pieces came and went. Yeah.

01:14:32.390 --> 01:14:35.430
And one man stayed. Nobody's won more NBA finals,

01:14:35.569 --> 01:14:40.829
MVPs, six from six, 100%, 100 % win rate. The

01:14:40.829 --> 01:14:43.890
only player to have had a season in which they

01:14:43.890 --> 01:14:48.109
won the NBA finals, the NBA final MVP, the season

01:14:48.109 --> 01:14:51.310
MVP, the first team all NBA, the first team all

01:14:51.310 --> 01:14:53.890
defense, the scoring title, and the leading point

01:14:53.890 --> 01:14:57.949
scorer in the playoffs. And he did it four times.

01:14:59.550 --> 01:15:02.380
Excellent. So, yeah. And he did it all in 14

01:15:02.380 --> 01:15:04.060
years. I think that's the other thing, because

01:15:04.060 --> 01:15:05.779
the guy fucked off and played baseball for a

01:15:05.779 --> 01:15:08.600
bit. Which is weird. Yeah. And getting conspiracy

01:15:08.600 --> 01:15:11.899
theories about why he did that, that's not...

01:15:11.899 --> 01:15:13.500
I don't think we need to, but that's a... I mean,

01:15:13.520 --> 01:15:16.100
obviously, the death of his father had a huge

01:15:16.100 --> 01:15:18.920
impact on that. Yes. His father, who was shot

01:15:18.920 --> 01:15:22.060
in a... Was it a robbery gone wrong? Yeah, I

01:15:22.060 --> 01:15:24.840
think he was driving some long journey home or

01:15:24.840 --> 01:15:26.619
something, and he stopped for a nap, and someone

01:15:26.619 --> 01:15:28.640
tried to rob him whilst he was asleep, I think.

01:15:29.500 --> 01:15:33.810
There we go. Yeah, and his dad always wanted

01:15:33.810 --> 01:15:37.869
him to play baseball, but even so, I guess he

01:15:37.869 --> 01:15:39.750
could. He wasn't shit at baseball. I guess that's

01:15:39.750 --> 01:15:41.010
what you can say about that. He wasn't shit.

01:15:41.229 --> 01:15:44.350
I mean, he got to, obviously, from the back of

01:15:44.350 --> 01:15:47.210
his name, he played AAA, I think, which is the

01:15:47.210 --> 01:15:51.229
level below the majors, and he hit 220 or something

01:15:51.229 --> 01:15:54.890
like that, which is pretty, you know, it's not

01:15:54.890 --> 01:15:57.210
going to get you into the majors, but he didn't

01:15:57.210 --> 01:15:59.479
embarrass himself. Yeah, I think that's all I

01:15:59.479 --> 01:16:03.100
mean. Considering I couldn't just turn up at

01:16:03.100 --> 01:16:07.460
the minors now and even hit one of the balls,

01:16:07.600 --> 01:16:10.800
the fact that he just went from being a professional

01:16:10.800 --> 01:16:12.359
basketball player to playing in the minors I

01:16:12.359 --> 01:16:16.100
think is indicative of something. Talent is talent,

01:16:16.239 --> 01:16:19.569
isn't it? Yeah. Hand -eye coordination is transferable.

01:16:19.850 --> 01:16:23.090
And he's a guy that we'll do a deeper dive on,

01:16:23.130 --> 01:16:25.710
so I don't want to dwell on it. But, yeah, I

01:16:25.710 --> 01:16:29.449
mean, I'm a big Michael fan, as probably anybody

01:16:29.449 --> 01:16:34.470
who loves sport is, because he epitomizes all

01:16:34.470 --> 01:16:37.350
the things that make sport fascinating to me

01:16:37.350 --> 01:16:43.770
in a single sportsman. Yeah, fair. I mean, we've

01:16:43.770 --> 01:16:45.350
spoken a lot about it. We've spoken about the

01:16:45.350 --> 01:16:47.510
commissioner, spoken about the players, we've

01:16:47.510 --> 01:16:49.810
spoken a bit about teams and the history. I mean,

01:16:49.829 --> 01:16:52.649
I guess just to complete the collection, we might

01:16:52.649 --> 01:16:58.130
as well give a mention in dispatches to some

01:16:58.130 --> 01:17:02.430
coaches. Yeah, a little quick doff of our cap

01:17:02.430 --> 01:17:06.489
to a couple of them. One that is a legend and

01:17:06.489 --> 01:17:08.689
is probably the greatest man to ever do it, and

01:17:08.689 --> 01:17:11.500
then one who we just really love. Yeah, a man

01:17:11.500 --> 01:17:13.840
after our own heart and someone I think that

01:17:13.840 --> 01:17:16.220
me and you would probably love to meet. Love

01:17:16.220 --> 01:17:18.199
to have a beer with, yeah. Love to buy a beer

01:17:18.199 --> 01:17:21.260
for. And that man in particular actually also

01:17:21.260 --> 01:17:24.779
did win five rings alongside Michael Jordan playing

01:17:24.779 --> 01:17:28.140
for the Bulls. He did. But we digress. We'll

01:17:28.140 --> 01:17:31.060
talk about the man who coached him to some of

01:17:31.060 --> 01:17:32.520
those first. He won three with the Bulls and

01:17:32.520 --> 01:17:34.840
two with the Spurs. He won five overall. Was

01:17:34.840 --> 01:17:37.149
it? Yeah. Yeah, Steve Kerr. Well, I tried. Steve

01:17:37.149 --> 01:17:39.689
Kerr. Yeah. But yeah, should we talk about, do

01:17:39.689 --> 01:17:40.890
you want to talk about Steve Kerr first or Phil

01:17:40.890 --> 01:17:43.170
Jackson first? Let's talk about Phil Jackson

01:17:43.170 --> 01:17:45.550
first, I think. Yeah, okay. You go. You go. You

01:17:45.550 --> 01:17:50.409
go. You take the lead. So just, again, more rings

01:17:50.409 --> 01:17:53.930
than he has fingers in total. 11 -time NBA champ

01:17:53.930 --> 01:17:56.489
to go with two as a player as well for the Knicks,

01:17:56.510 --> 01:17:59.210
which is just ludicrous. Three -peat repeat with

01:17:59.210 --> 01:18:01.970
the Bulls. So two three -peats with the Bulls.

01:18:02.510 --> 01:18:04.689
With MJ Rodman, Pippen, Kerr. We haven't even

01:18:04.689 --> 01:18:06.850
mentioned Rodman, who was a madman. We haven't

01:18:06.850 --> 01:18:08.729
even mentioned Rodman. Another day. Ridiculous.

01:18:08.750 --> 01:18:12.390
Another day. Yeah. Yeah, sorry. Then he went

01:18:12.390 --> 01:18:14.390
to the Lakers, and almost immediately, this was

01:18:14.390 --> 01:18:17.329
a couple of years later, won five more with them,

01:18:17.350 --> 01:18:21.029
including another free -peat. Kobe, Shaq, Derek

01:18:21.029 --> 01:18:24.850
Fisher. Just ridiculous. Ludicrous. Ludicrous.

01:18:24.909 --> 01:18:28.920
Two dominant teams. He also lost a couple of

01:18:28.920 --> 01:18:30.979
finals as well. Lost to the Pistons with the

01:18:30.979 --> 01:18:33.840
Lakers in 2004 and lost to the Celtics with the

01:18:33.840 --> 01:18:36.659
Lakers, another Celtics -Lakers matchup in 2008.

01:18:37.079 --> 01:18:39.500
But he has more postseason wins than anyone and

01:18:39.500 --> 01:18:42.020
he has more conference titles than anyone. Legend.

01:18:42.199 --> 01:18:43.819
The thing that's really cool as well is between

01:18:43.819 --> 01:18:48.319
the 2000 and 2002 Lakers wins and then the 2009

01:18:48.319 --> 01:18:51.640
and 2010 ones, he took a bit of time off after

01:18:51.640 --> 01:18:53.460
that Pistons win. I think he just fucked off

01:18:53.460 --> 01:18:56.310
into the sunset. After the Pistons defeat, sorry,

01:18:56.409 --> 01:18:58.649
in 2004. He just decided he was going to have

01:18:58.649 --> 01:19:00.210
a break and then he came back and was like, you

01:19:00.210 --> 01:19:03.529
know what, fuck it, I want a couple more. Yeah.

01:19:04.130 --> 01:19:07.350
I mean, that as a head coach to win 11 is...

01:19:07.350 --> 01:19:11.210
11 over the course of what, 17 years? 17, 18

01:19:11.210 --> 01:19:14.210
years? 18 probably total. That is incredible.

01:19:14.609 --> 01:19:17.649
Yeah. Most post -season wins, 229. Most conference

01:19:17.649 --> 01:19:21.449
titles, 13. And obviously, cream rises. You're

01:19:21.449 --> 01:19:23.069
going to get the best jobs being the best coach,

01:19:23.149 --> 01:19:26.680
but... it is hard to win like it as much as we

01:19:26.680 --> 01:19:29.420
say you see the same teams dominating it's because

01:19:29.420 --> 01:19:32.739
they have all the pieces in place you always

01:19:32.739 --> 01:19:35.000
play a finals against a team who are at least

01:19:35.000 --> 01:19:37.699
you're equal or thereabouts you have to get over

01:19:37.699 --> 01:19:41.140
the line yeah well yeah that's true and I guess

01:19:41.140 --> 01:19:43.920
that like we can transition quite neatly onto

01:19:43.920 --> 01:19:45.800
I'm very glad that you picked Phil Jackson first

01:19:45.800 --> 01:19:47.600
actually because it allows that transition to

01:19:47.600 --> 01:19:49.439
operate smoothly because Steve Kerr is a man

01:19:49.439 --> 01:19:52.319
who played under Phil Jackson at the Bulls he

01:19:52.319 --> 01:19:57.199
did with MJ And he is a nine -time NBA final

01:19:57.199 --> 01:19:59.159
winner, five as a player, as I was just saying

01:19:59.159 --> 01:20:00.739
earlier, three with the Bulls, two with the Spurs,

01:20:00.779 --> 01:20:03.840
and then four as a coach at Golden State, where

01:20:03.840 --> 01:20:07.680
he still is. Really interesting guy for reasons

01:20:07.680 --> 01:20:11.840
that transcend basketball. He has a topic of

01:20:11.840 --> 01:20:14.920
conversation that I'm not going to shy away from

01:20:14.920 --> 01:20:17.039
a controversial topic of conversation when talking

01:20:17.039 --> 01:20:21.520
about an American sport, but his father was murdered

01:20:21.520 --> 01:20:25.829
in Lebanon in 1984. He was an academic and human

01:20:25.829 --> 01:20:27.789
rights activist working for the American University

01:20:27.789 --> 01:20:31.210
of Beirut. And as a result of that, Steve Kerr

01:20:31.210 --> 01:20:36.630
is a big gun control advocate. Famously, in May

01:20:36.630 --> 01:20:39.829
2022, during a press conference ahead of Game

01:20:39.829 --> 01:20:42.029
4 of the Western Conference Finals against the

01:20:42.029 --> 01:20:44.489
Maverick, after that day's Robb Elementary School

01:20:44.489 --> 01:20:46.949
shooting in Texas where 19 children and two teachers

01:20:46.949 --> 01:20:49.649
were murdered and 17 others injured by a gunman

01:20:49.649 --> 01:20:52.479
wielding semi -automatic weapons. Kerr reiterated

01:20:52.479 --> 01:20:55.100
these points very emotionally and very clearly

01:20:55.100 --> 01:20:59.619
and inspirationally in my humble opinion. So

01:20:59.619 --> 01:21:01.619
there was a filibuster going on at the time where

01:21:01.619 --> 01:21:03.840
Republicans in the US Senate were basically trying

01:21:03.840 --> 01:21:07.439
to kill a bill which may have benefited, may

01:21:07.439 --> 01:21:09.000
have made changes which would stop this kind

01:21:09.000 --> 01:21:11.140
of thing happening. He said that they were holding

01:21:11.140 --> 01:21:13.819
us hostage and using it to prevent a vote on

01:21:13.819 --> 01:21:17.100
gun control legislation and he's also spoken

01:21:17.100 --> 01:21:18.680
out against racial inequality as well. He's a

01:21:18.680 --> 01:21:20.810
great guy. He is a great guy. He is a great guy.

01:21:20.970 --> 01:21:23.869
If anyone hasn't seen, you can see the interview.

01:21:23.949 --> 01:21:28.029
It will be on YouTube. The press conference.

01:21:28.149 --> 01:21:29.890
There's no faking it. There's no faking that.

01:21:30.250 --> 01:21:35.909
He's angry. He's angry. You would be. For something

01:21:35.909 --> 01:21:39.890
that you've given a shit about for the obvious

01:21:39.890 --> 01:21:42.529
reasons for 20 odd years. Sorry, 40 odd years.

01:21:43.029 --> 01:21:46.130
Since one of the most important people in your

01:21:46.130 --> 01:21:51.270
life was killed by a gun. and seeing if anything

01:21:51.270 --> 01:21:53.430
can getting worse in that time not getting better

01:21:53.430 --> 01:21:57.270
seeing all these tragedies have zero positive

01:21:57.270 --> 01:22:00.789
consequences coming out of them can you blame

01:22:00.789 --> 01:22:04.449
me no i yeah we really like him mainly because

01:22:04.449 --> 01:22:07.609
you might as well not make a secret of it jack

01:22:07.609 --> 01:22:11.569
we don't like guns not not our not our favorite

01:22:11.569 --> 01:22:14.510
things like i i'm not going to get into that

01:22:14.510 --> 01:22:17.210
particular debate now i've i've spoken to i've

01:22:17.210 --> 01:22:19.840
spoken to Americans by that length in my many

01:22:19.840 --> 01:22:21.979
travels to America and you can have some very

01:22:21.979 --> 01:22:24.260
reasonable conversations to people about guns

01:22:24.260 --> 01:22:27.000
but that doesn't seem to permeate to the top

01:22:27.000 --> 01:22:28.979
level of politics there's no sensible conversations

01:22:28.979 --> 01:22:33.800
to be had it is a right because it is in the

01:22:33.800 --> 01:22:36.760
constitution but Americans need to treat it more

01:22:36.760 --> 01:22:39.340
as a privilege and if you believe you are a safe

01:22:39.340 --> 01:22:42.020
gun owner well then what problem do you have

01:22:42.020 --> 01:22:44.680
with make sure everyone acts as responsible as

01:22:44.680 --> 01:22:48.869
you do basically is my summary of it yeah i mean

01:22:48.869 --> 01:22:50.789
i'm not even going to get started because i'll

01:22:50.789 --> 01:22:54.250
just get annoyed um but i agree with all of your

01:22:54.250 --> 01:22:57.529
sentiments and i think steve kerr is a great

01:22:57.529 --> 01:23:00.550
advocate um for all the the arguments and the

01:23:00.550 --> 01:23:02.310
points that we make and we don't live in america

01:23:02.310 --> 01:23:04.029
it's not really our country you know we can't

01:23:04.029 --> 01:23:06.630
tell people how to live but it should be a fairly

01:23:06.630 --> 01:23:08.770
uncontroversial position to take but nonetheless

01:23:08.770 --> 01:23:11.970
it's not well how do we get out of a gun control

01:23:11.970 --> 01:23:14.880
hole I don't think we need to. I think we've

01:23:14.880 --> 01:23:17.260
done a fine job today. That's how you get out

01:23:17.260 --> 01:23:19.479
of it. You just pat each other on the back and

01:23:19.479 --> 01:23:22.479
you say, job well done. Where can we watch it?

01:23:24.439 --> 01:23:28.560
Well, if you're in the UK, TNT Sports, which

01:23:28.560 --> 01:23:31.699
I don't have, but I can probably find it somewhere,

01:23:31.800 --> 01:23:34.760
shall we say. In Germany, how do you pronounce

01:23:34.760 --> 01:23:37.760
this? Is it DAZN? Is it D -A -Z -N? DAZN, I think.

01:23:38.680 --> 01:23:42.659
DAZN. Oh, yeah, that makes sense. DAZN, ProSieben,

01:23:42.800 --> 01:23:46.199
and the NBA TV International. TNT in Ireland,

01:23:46.460 --> 01:23:50.199
TV4 in Sweden, NowSports and NBA TV International

01:23:50.199 --> 01:23:52.619
in Hong Kong. Wow, you have been thorough with

01:23:52.619 --> 01:23:54.420
this list. Well done, Ben. Well, mainly because

01:23:54.420 --> 01:23:58.539
we do see who listens and where they may be located.

01:23:58.960 --> 01:24:01.239
Ah, I see what you've done there. So I thought,

01:24:01.279 --> 01:24:03.500
thank you for coming back, guys, if you stuck

01:24:03.500 --> 01:24:06.000
with us through another episode. And I thought

01:24:06.000 --> 01:24:10.090
I'd throw you a bone directly. yes so um yes

01:24:10.090 --> 01:24:12.590
as i mentioned we've got a few listeners around

01:24:12.590 --> 01:24:15.529
europe particularly and also in in the far east

01:24:15.529 --> 01:24:19.170
and other places and in america so yeah there

01:24:19.170 --> 01:24:21.210
we go thank you ben for i didn't even notice

01:24:21.210 --> 01:24:23.930
that but that's good um australia new zealand

01:24:23.930 --> 01:24:27.770
espn and america turn on the tv yeah yeah don't

01:24:27.770 --> 01:24:30.569
take the piss we know that you know and you know

01:24:30.569 --> 01:24:33.630
that we know that you know it's espn so don't

01:24:33.630 --> 01:24:35.930
try and hide it just just watch the nba finals

01:24:35.930 --> 01:24:42.300
guys Cool. Well, that's this week. Where does

01:24:42.300 --> 01:24:46.119
life take us next week? So next week, we're finishing

01:24:46.119 --> 01:24:50.199
off something we started a couple of weeks ago

01:24:50.199 --> 01:24:52.359
now, which was the triple crown of motorsport.

01:24:52.640 --> 01:24:55.420
So for those of you who listened to our Monaco

01:24:55.420 --> 01:24:56.960
Grand Prix episode, and for those of you who

01:24:56.960 --> 01:25:00.399
listened to our Indy 500 bonus episode, we're

01:25:00.399 --> 01:25:02.439
finishing that off with the 24 Hours Le Mans

01:25:02.439 --> 01:25:05.220
next week, which is on the 14th of June. and

01:25:05.220 --> 01:25:07.720
yeah there's a the reason we're doing that episode

01:25:07.720 --> 01:25:10.939
because we did had a change to our planned schedule

01:25:10.939 --> 01:25:12.399
we're going to do some cricket but we're now

01:25:12.399 --> 01:25:14.380
going to do some more motor racing because there

01:25:14.380 --> 01:25:18.939
was just such vast depth to Le Mans and the history

01:25:18.939 --> 01:25:20.739
of Le Mans is the history of motorsport and there's,

01:25:20.760 --> 01:25:22.819
shall we say, plenty of opportunities to cover

01:25:22.819 --> 01:25:25.060
cricket in the near future. Yes, there are. There

01:25:25.060 --> 01:25:27.500
is a good summer over here. We're playing India,

01:25:27.659 --> 01:25:29.899
England that is, and it's also an Ashes year.

01:25:30.020 --> 01:25:32.340
So if you like cricket and you were wondering

01:25:32.340 --> 01:25:33.680
if we were going to cover the World Test Championships,

01:25:33.840 --> 01:25:37.060
don't be disappointed. Cricket is a coming. It

01:25:37.060 --> 01:25:38.779
is one of our favourite sports and it would be

01:25:38.779 --> 01:25:41.399
our wheelhouse. Yes. Sports we've played and

01:25:41.399 --> 01:25:44.140
watched for many a year. Badly, but yes. Watched

01:25:44.140 --> 01:25:46.000
well. I mean, you're better than me at cricket.

01:25:46.930 --> 01:25:49.289
nice well should we leave it there i think so

01:25:49.289 --> 01:25:51.989
all right mate well um speak to you next week

01:25:51.989 --> 01:25:54.930
miss you already love you mate love you too bye

01:25:54.930 --> 01:26:03.029
-bye bye A huge, huge thank you once again for

01:26:03.029 --> 01:26:05.350
listening to the Sporting Almanac podcast. Can't

01:26:05.350 --> 01:26:07.409
say that enough. If you enjoyed it, give us a

01:26:07.409 --> 01:26:09.569
like, a subscribe, rate, comment, whatever it

01:26:09.569 --> 01:26:11.470
is to trigger those algorithms. But more important

01:26:11.470 --> 01:26:13.729
than algorithms, please tell your friends. There's

01:26:13.729 --> 01:26:16.550
no better form of advertising than word of mouth.

01:26:16.829 --> 01:26:18.689
Our theme tune is Oh Yeah by Harmonia Productions.

01:26:18.810 --> 01:26:21.390
You can find us on Blue Sky and Instagram at

01:26:21.390 --> 01:26:23.270
at the Sporting Almanac or drop us an email at

01:26:23.270 --> 01:26:25.550
sportingalmanacpodcast .gmail .com. We'll see

01:26:25.550 --> 01:26:27.829
you next week at Le Mans for the 24 hours of

01:26:27.829 --> 01:26:30.850
Le Mans. Until then, please stay curious. sport

01:26:30.850 --> 01:26:33.109
is nothing without the stories that make it goodbye