A hoop and a ball. That's all you need. A hoop
and a ball. Anyone can play. And anyone can play
anywhere. In a garden. On a driveway. In the
streets. A local park. In a high school sports
hall. In Allen Fieldhouse. Or at Madison Square
Garden. Basketball is like life. And life is
like basketball. You aim high. You take on people
bigger than you. Sometimes you get knocked down.
Sometimes you miss. Sometimes your mates help
you out. And sometimes you hit a slam dunk. It's
just a game. A game played by giants, though,
right? Well, tell that to Mugsy Bogues. You might
not think it, but anyone can go all the way.
But even those who are lucky enough to make it
to Game 7 and win it all will find out that some
things never change. As Charles Barkley once
said, the only difference between a good shot
and a bad shot is whether it goes in or not.
This is the Sporting Almanac Podcast. Good evening,
Jack. Good evening, Ben. Good evening, Evenal.
That's a great start. Good evening, all. Yes,
good evening, loyal fans of the Sporting Almanac,
who are here for our witty banter and our competence
behind the mic. We're learning. We're learning
on the job. Episode 10. Episode 10, the NBA Finals.
Kind of fun, because neither of us really know
heaps about this sport. No, and it's a sport
that I've always had struggles forming, I guess,
an emotional bond with, perhaps compared to other
sports, because it's something I got into later.
And I get very emotional and romantic about sports,
and without that sort of link there. I fell in
love with the Jets because they were so useless.
I fell in love with the Colorado Rockies because
they were so useless. I fell in love with Liverpool
because... You know, watching them as a kid when
you know you're from there and you know you've
got roots there and they've got great players
in their team. So slightly different from my
American links. But basketball, yeah, I've really
had it. But one good thing about this process
and this podcast is I think I'm starting to get
some. So that's nice. Yeah, it is nice. That's
exactly how I feel about it. Because it's not
a big sport in the UK. It's growing, arguably.
It would be an overstatement to describe it as
big. And our only real exposure to it is the
NBA. And that's on. unsociable hours more often
than not yeah it's uh in terms of our actual
competitiveness as a country there is virtually
none there's been a handful of british nba players
in the past but very few and far between obviously
there's a big influx of players from around the
world and from europe generally in the nba in
sort of the past 20 years or so so as a sport
popularity wise it is growing um but it's nowhere
near the same level of prominence as american
football yes in the uk for example Big in Spain,
big in Greece, big in some of the Eastern Bloc
countries. Big in France. It is big in France.
Tony Martin. Yeah, it is big in France. That's
a good point. But yeah, we've somehow managed
to dodge the basketball bug. Should we just dive
straight into a little bit about the NBA itself?
Since it's at its climax, I guess we've got to
set the scene a little bit. Yeah. 30 teams. Head
first. 30 teams. 2 -15. team conferences, Eastern
and Western, keep it simple. The top eight from
each conference qualify for the playoffs, which
is a fact you hate. They have the play -in tournaments
where the top 10 teams in each conference have
a chance to get in, but the teams ranked seven
through 10 play a play -in game against each
other. So realistically, the top two thirds of
the league has a chance to reach the NBA finals,
which to me, not a fan of, especially over it,
because it's an 82 game season, 41 games at home,
41 games away, long season. How many of them
must just feel like exhibition games? That's
my problem with it. Yeah, I think that's a fair
critique. But it is America and it is about cash
dollar. And that's a lot of games. And I guess
the one good thing about the number of teams
you get in, if we can put a positive spin on
it after our Champions League episode, which
was a big rant, it would be to say that knockout
basketball is more fun than league basketball.
And that's a big knockout tournament. Yeah, I've
no doubt that the tournament itself, the finals,
the playoffs in general are fantastic and very
exciting to watch. But yeah, I think there's
more of a balance that can be found. That's just
my opinion. Feel free to shoot me. No, no, I
think that's right. I mean, you don't need an
80 game. Basically, the point of the league is
that it creates a seeding system. So you obviously
lose the worst teams. So there's that point to
it. Otherwise, it's just a seeding system into
a knockout tournament, and the two winners of
the respective conferences. So there's a knockout
tournament in the Eastern Conference and the
Western Conference, and the two winners of those
respective conferences play each other in the
NBA Finals in a best of seven, with the team
having the best regular season record, getting
home court advantage, which is a rule that persists
throughout. the playoffs themselves, so the highest
ranked team gets home court advantage. Yeah,
they're all seven game series. Yeah, and it's
four at home for the higher ranked team, and
in the finals that will be whoever is ranked
higher. And this year is a very fun year. We
are actually recording it before the second position
has been finalised, but it's Oklahoma Thunder
who are through having beat the Timberwolves.
Yeah. And the Knicks are playing the Pacers,
and the Pacers are dominating them. I think they're
3 -1 up with the game five tonight, our time,
1 a .m. And so it could well be the Indiana Pacers
versus the Oklahoma Thunder unless there is a
remarkable comeback. However, this playoff series
has seen some remarkable comebacks already. It
could happen. You never know. It could happen.
And the thing that's very fun about it is that
the four teams that have made the conference
finals are all on or were in the case of... Obviously
the Timberwolves because they're gone. Championship
droughts. So the Knicks have not won since 1976
and that looks like it's going to carry on. Thunder
have only won once in 1979 and the Pacers have
been to the final in 2000 but have never won
it before. And unfortunately for the Timberwolves
who are gone, they've never actually made an
NBA finals. This is not a sport like American
football or to a lesser extent ice hockey or
even baseball. Yeah, baseball too, to be fair.
Yeah, where you get changes of the guard. This
is an era sport where teams dominate. This is
a three -peat league. There's never been a three
-peat, as we say, as in three victories in a
row, in the NFL, for example, or in the Super
Bowl era, certainly. However, basketball, they
are not uncommon. Teams dominate long periods.
You've got the Bulls era in the 90s, Chicago
Bulls, Lakers in the 80s. Celtics of the 60s.
Yeah. But apparently we are entering the parity
or we are in the midst of the parity era, which
I think is really actually quite cool. Yes. And
by that we mean, we should explain, it is the
longest continuous period in the NBA's history
where a different team has won the finals in
each season. So that's 2019 to this year. We'll
have had consecutive different winners. Which
is very fun because, yeah, as you just said,
Jack, and we'll probably explore a few of these
eras in a bit of detail as we talk through the
history of basketball and some interesting people.
But yeah, you said the Celtics in the 60s. More
recently is Golden State in the 2010s with Steph
Curry and co. Prior to that, it was San Antonio
Spurs and LA Lakers shared the 2000s with Kobe
and Shaq. Yeah, and then you've already mentioned
the others. Going back a bit further in time.
Most famously for our generation, the Chicago
Bulls, obviously, with the three -peat repeat.
Yeah. So, yeah. So, should we... Now that we've
set the scene, should we sort of explain where
it all emerged from? It seems a sensible place
to start. We do like to go back to the beginning,
so... Yeah, back to the beginning. Shall we?
We'll rattle through this because... There's
a danger. We've got a lot to get through. Yeah,
and we'll dwell on this, that, and the other.
But a brief history of basketball itself, and
then we'll talk about the formation of the NBA.
But basketball itself was invented in 1891 by
a Canadian guy called James Naismith in Massachusetts.
I think he created it as an alternative sport
to American football at the time because it was
a game that could be played indoors in the winter
and a game that was less prone to injury. But
the concept of basketball dates back to like
1591. There's some German journal sort of making
reference to a game involving throwing a ball
against a target woven from twigs mounted high
on a pole in the middle of a large playing field.
Throwing stuff at targets high up is probably
a fairly easy way of keeping yourself entertained.
And as I sort of alluded to in the intro, doesn't
take much, right? Pretty easy sport. No, pretty
accessible. A bit like football, as in soccer.
Just a ball and a couple of jumpers for goalposts
and you're off. You just need a ball and a high
target. And less people for basketball. This
is true. So, yeah, played in colleges originally,
the army. Some minor professional leagues came
and went in the early 1900s. But FIBA, so the
International Governing Body, was established
in 1932. But yeah, the formation of the NBA.
kind of happened independently of the formation
of basketball as a global sport so to speak yeah
it's um it surprised me actually when looking
into this how new the nba is yeah relative to
other american sports leagues very obviously
major league baseball is by far the oldest that
goes back into the 19th century we spoke about
the history of the nhl and the nfl in previous
episodes so they go back to The early part of
the 20th century, pretty much. Really, the NBA
only really took off as a big league from the
50s onwards and really only properly in the 1960s
due to a couple of stars that we'll get into
later on. It's much newer as a big sport than
its competitors in terms of major American sports.
Yeah, it is. Because it was basically organized
basketball in the States and the roots of the
NBA was basically laden. in 1925 in the east
of the usa via the american basketball league
or also known as the abl that was actually set
up by the president of the newly formed nfl but
only ran until there we go yeah but only ran
until 1930 i think there's gonna be quite quite
a lot of crossover here because it's basically
just rich dudes in america and to be fair that
there's similar things in uh other sports as
well individuals from prominent positions being
responsible for setting up quite a lot of sports
because they just love it. Some people just love
setting up a sports league. Yeah. Lamar Hunt
as well, who we spoke about, tennis, football,
and American football, or tennis, football, and
soccer, I guess he'd rather I said. Yeah, a finger
in many pies. Indeed. But yeah, so the ABL came
and went, but it was the first sort of properly
organized league, I guess. I might be slightly
misplaced in that thinking, but... there or thereabouts
and then um yeah given a new lease of life in
1937 in the midwest uh by the national basketball
league or the nbl um which was basically big
in midwestern industrial cities and that ran
until 1949 it was basically positively amateur
and the sport itself just has really emerged
from pretty humble beginnings most of the abl
and nbl games were played in like very small
arenas and some were even played in like ballrooms
and high school gymnasiums So, you know, it didn't
have the populist support that other sports might
have had, which sort of propelled them into sort
of more functional, widespread entertainment
businesses early. But yes, then came the Basketball
Association of America, the BAA. BAA. Everyone
having a go. Yeah. Well, this is also a common
theme, isn't it? Like just competing leagues
and then it all. eventually organizes itself
under a single umbrella entity the BAA founded
in 1946 several teams were founded in the BAA
including three that co -founded the league so
you might have heard of these the Boston Celtics
the New York Knicks and the Philadelphia Warriors
which are now Golden State because we know Americans
like to move around with their franchises BAA
that was set up by the owners because we'd like
we like to do this on the almanac we like to
draw the threads together it was set up by the
owners of some teams who would go on to form
the nhl there we go yeah so uh realizing that
they could presumably i was going to say presumably
because they wanted to use the rinks in in the
summertime or that's exactly for something else
other than ice hockey yeah you preempt all about
the money yeah all about the dollar um you preempted
that exact exactly that realizing that they could
utilize a couple of their fairly prominent venues
you might have heard of them as well madison
square garden maple leaf gardens what can we
do with them when we're not playing ice hockey
we can play some basketball fantastic yeah And
so that's the first time the leagues have sort
of attempted to play primarily in large arenas
in major cities. But the quality of the league
wasn't necessarily significantly better than
the other leagues. In 1948, three more sides
joined the BAA from the NBL. So we had some defectors
who also still exist. So Fort Wayne Pistons,
now Detroit. The Minneapolis Lakers, now LA.
And the Rochester Royals, now Sacramento Kings,
which is, I guess, still the same theme. royal
to king but at least they tried. Yeah that's
random that. Yeah and anyway all of this leads
to the creation of the NBA on the 3rd of August
1949. There was a merger between the BAA and
the NBL at the BAA offices which were located
in one of Empire State Building in New York and
it basically led to the president of the BAA
becoming the president of the NBA and the president
of the NBL becoming the chairman of the NBA.
And it's actually got quite a rocky start from
here. It's not all plain sailing. So even though
it's created in 49, the new league then has 17
teams, because obviously they merge, a mix of
large and small cities, as well as a mix of large
arenas, small gymnasiums, and even some armories
people were playing in. Fair enough, yeah. Because
of, I guess, some sort of political wrangling
between the two entities that merged, the NBA
has officially adopted the BAA's history for
some reason. But in the early years, what I was
going to say, sorry, I went off on a little bit
of a tangent there. What I was going to say is
when I say go off to a rocky start, in its early
years, it actually got smaller. So it didn't
expand immediately. In 1950, it consolidated
to 11 teams. And then in 54, it reached its lowest
number, 54 -55, reached its lowest number of
eight. But they are quite famous. So they're
sort of... The core of the league. Yeah, the
core. That's a good way of putting it. The Knicks,
the Celtics, Golden State, LA Lakers, Sacramento
Kings, Detroit Pistons, Atlanta Hawks, which
were the Milwaukee Hawks, and the Syracuse Nationals,
which is now the Philadelphia 76ers. So yeah,
that's how we got... to the NBA and then from
there... Milwaukee Hawks were also the St. Louis
Hawks at one point as well. There's a lot of
teams in different sport history that go through
St. Louis but don't stay there, like the Rams
and the Cardinals as well in the NFL. Anyway,
carry on. I was going to come on to something
else but I'm just going to jump forward and just
quickly explain that effectively the NBA... You
would have thought it was looking good there,
but it wasn't. It was challenged very briefly
in 1967 by the ABA, the American Basketball Association.
And basically the league's engaged in a big bidding
war. As is the want of wealthy American businessmen,
it seems, when it comes to American sports. If
you've got enough cash, just throw it at it and
see if you can take over. But, as you might.
No, and anticipate. The ABA was not successful
because you've never heard of it, and the NBA
still exists. That is because the NBA landed
some of the most important college stars of the
era, and one in particular was a chap called
Kareem Abdul -Jabbar, who people might have heard
of. Yeah. He basically became the league's best
player of the 70s and one of the all -time greats.
There were some others, but we're going to come
back to those. The NBA's leading scorer, Rick
Barry, didn't all go swimmingly, sorry. The NBA's
leading scorer, Rick Barry, actually jumped ship
and went to the ABA. And so did a series of referees,
which I don't know why is significant, because
who gives a shit? That's not why people come
and watch. Who cares if you've got the best refs?
No, you should never know the names of referees
or never care about the names of referees. And
if you do, they've probably done something wrong,
which has happened in the NBA, but not a story
for today, that one. Yeah. But anyway, again,
in response to that challenge, the NBA just went
full America on it and just expanded as rapidly
as possible. And so from 66 to 74, they grew
from nine franchises to 18. And in 1970, the
Portland Trailblazers, the Cleveland Cavaliers,
and the Buffalo Braves, who are now the Los Angeles
Clippers, all made their debuts, expanding the
league to 17. And then they were followed by
the Jazz, bringing it up to 18. And then, yeah,
following the 1976 season, the NBA and ABA reached
a settlement that provided for the addition of
four ABA franchises to join the NBA, which were
the San Antonio Spurs, the Denver Nuggets, the
Indiana Pacers, and the New York Nets, who are
now the Brooklyn Nets, which brought us to 22.
So, yeah, like that's basically the NBA. Got
off to a pretty rocky start. Like loads of wrangling
between the leagues meant declining television
ratings, low attendance, drug related issues,
both perceived and real. And then. And then.
And then came Larry Bird. And? And Magic Johnson.
So Larry Bird of the Celtics, Magic Johnson of
the LA Lakers. And that. Sparks major fan interest.
They caused the NBA to grow in popularity very,
very quickly. The two had faced each other in
the 79 NCAA Division I Basketball Championship
game. I'm going to assume Magic Johnson won and
I have a stat later which makes me think that's
the case. Oh, nice. Getting Magic Johnson's team
won that. Yeah, okay, nice. I didn't actually
look that up. we love a triple crown apparently
that's becoming a thing and there is actually
a triple crown of basketball and only eight players
have ever won it and one of those eight players
is magic johnson that is a winning the ncaa division
one championship winning an nba title and winning
a gold medal at the olympics that's your triple
crown nice since larry bird's not on that list
and magic johnson is i'm going to assume magic
johnson came out on top here Because both of
them have an Olympic gold and both of them have
an NBA ring or two. Several, actually. Well,
they definitely have several because these two
guys were basically in every single final for
a while. They played each other in three finals,
84, 85, 87. But in the 10 seasons of the 80s,
Johnson led the Lakers to five titles and Bird
led the Celtics to three. The 80s actually was
kind of a big deal for the NBA. In fact, a massive
deal for the NBA. because the Dallas Mavericks
also joined in the 1980s, bringing the teams
up to 23. But two more very significant events,
and perhaps we'll circle back to these, because
I just want to mention something else before
we do. But in 84, Michael Jordan was drafted
in by the Bulls, and everyone's probably heard
of Michael Jordan. But perhaps less famously,
in the same year, David Stern became the commissioner
of the NBA, and he was a pretty influential dude,
and perhaps we can talk about him a bit more.
But... before we do jack i just want to quickly
well i want to i want to introduce something
and i want to allow you to talk about someone
so the nba is famously associated with um african
americans uh but despite that um association
uh in a similar way to say like the men's 100
meter final is guys from african american backgrounds
tend to be very talented this sport is very popular
within the culture but it wasn't always that
way despite like it That now being the demographic,
what I mean by that is in 2023, 70 % of the league
was black. It didn't start that way, and maybe
that's unsurprising given America in the 1920s
and 40s. It was an all -white sport, basically.
And a Japanese -American guy called Wataru Misaka
is considered to be the first person to have
broken the color barrier in the 47 -48 season
when he played for the Knicks in the BAA. He
remained the only non -white player in the league's
history until Harold Hunter came along. And he
was an African -American and he signed for the
Washington Capitals in the 50s. But he was actually
cut from the Capitals. Did you know this before
the training camp? I didn't know that. No, I
knew about the first drafted, as in Chuck Cooper
and Noel Lloyd. I think I actually mentioned
them in the NFL episode, but I did not know about
Harold Hunter. Yeah. And you've just mentioned
the other two guys. And there was one other,
Nathaniel Sweetwater Clifton, which I think is
a great name, came in with the Knicks. But basically
from there, African -American players never looked
back. And some of the legends of the game quickly
took center stage, which brings us on to two
chaps who I think you'd like to talk about. Yeah,
so... The first two real superstars in NBA history,
the first real true superstars, I would say,
both African -Americans, both legends in their
own rights, both giants of men, one of whom I'm
going to speak about particularly, but you can't
speak about one without speaking about the other.
Those two men were Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain.
I'm going to focus on Bill Russell today, but
even, I mean, the amount of time we have today,
it's another introductory episode to a sport.
I do not have enough time to get in everything
about Bill Russell. The thing about this podcast
and what we've been doing so far is, as I mentioned
at the beginning, it gives me an opportunity
to delve deeper into a sport, to learn more about
it. Because I might know the rules and I might
know who's won the recent titles. I might know
this, that, and the other. And basketball is
a really good example of that. I don't know about
the history and I don't know about the people.
But I'm really pleased this podcast has given
me an opportunity to learn about Bill Russell.
Because Bill Russell, anyone who knows anything
about basketball will already know this. Bill
Russell is an extraordinary man. Yeah, he's a
cool dude. Not just a brilliant basketball player,
but not just a brilliant team player, not just
a winner. No one has more rings than Bill Russell
does. He has more rings than he has fingers,
famously. Good stat. Not only that, just an incredible
man. Started playing professional basketball
in the 1950s at a time he was born in the South.
and grew up in an era where Jim Crow was still
a thing. That's separation and segregation laws.
Basically, the southern states legally treating
African Americans differently to how they treated
white people. So that was obviously formed the
basis for the civil rights movement in the 1960s
predominantly. And Bill Russell was a massive
part of that. This is a man who, he marched with
Martin Luther King. He stood. alongside muhammad
ali he never backed down when faced with discrimination
he was genuinely genuinely a leader a mentor
pioneer and a winner he's honestly he's a guy
he's a real legend he's also a very intelligent
and well -spoken man and he's got a few books
out and one of his books particularly second
wind it's called is incredibly quotable like
the guy has a lot of wisdom and i thoroughly
recommend everyone dives into it as i said i
don't really have time to go into it today but
but like you say yes we'll we'll end up doing
a deep a deep dive i think we must do yeah like
it would be a couple of basketball guys actually
that we will and mj is one of them obviously
but bill russell's going to be at the forefront
of that list as well yeah when he was a child
his family moved from the south to oakland california
they moved west and that completely changed his
childhood All of a sudden, things he was used
to, like having to use separate bathrooms and
separate water fountains and things like that,
as he used to in his youth, wasn't a thing anymore.
He was in a place where he was, at least on paper,
at least legally speaking, an equal, even if
there was still discrimination everywhere. His
prized possession as a child was his library
card, and he immersed himself with reading and
artwork. He's genuinely an incredibly intelligent
and well -read guy. It's not something you associate
with people that go on, and I'm being awfully
cliche about this and stereotypical, but not
something that you associate with people that
go on to be superstars of sports, right? No,
absolutely not. And his intelligence, his basketball
intelligence particularly, made him the player
he was. He had a difficult childhood. His family...
were poor his mother died when he was 12 years
old his heroes were Minneapolis Lakers center
George Mikan who later described him as in he
later described Russell as the best ever college
player that he'd ever seen and his other hero
was his father who went out and earned money
for his family every day and taught him both
to you know work ethic and also had to stand
up for himself as well so as a high school player
he struggled initially Because he had physical
talent, he had height and strength and physicality,
but he had no foundation in the game or understanding
of it. He'd never played before, before he went
to high school. So this led to a lot of improvisation
on his part. So he was sort of making up how
to play the games he went along and he had coaches
trying to coach him out of it. But he stuck with
it and he was convinced that his way was the
best way. And now people coach people how to
do it his way. Like he kept doing the things
that you do. The coach has always said you have
to plant your feet when you're in defence. He
wanted to try and jump and time his jumps to
get blocks in and to have more range when he
does it. And that's how they coach defence now.
He's genuinely a trailblazer. He was absolutely
desperate for scholarship to try and escape.
Essentially, a life as a dock worker would be
the life in front of him if he didn't get himself
a basketball scholarship. And he was by no means
an utterly dominant and well -known high school
player. He was only scouted in his last ever
high school game and the scout was there to watch
an opponent. The scout's name was Halder Julio
and he was underwhelmed by Russell's fundamentals
and his scoring ability which he lacked considerably
even during his professional career. But he sensed
in him an incredible instinct for the game especially
in clutch moments. He was raw, relatively uncoached
but he took a chance on him. So it just goes
to show how close history comes and how many
times this might have happened to people in the
past. They might have had potential to be wonderful,
but there wasn't a Hal DiGiulio there to scout
them. Wrong sport, but that just brings the quote
from... well, I say it's a quote, I mean, it's
a dramatization, but Billy Bean in Moneyball.
Yeah. When he faces off with the scouts and he
goes, the number of times I've sat across the
table with you from a young man and his family
and you always tell them the same thing when
I know, I know, and you don't, and you don't.
And like, so like, yeah, yeah, what I'm getting
at is this is like the converse, like the, of
that, right, the converse of it. Well, I mean,
he was the only scout who, he was the only scout
who, ever noticed him and there would have been
plenty of other scouts before him who had seen
them and not noticed yeah yeah that's my point
so that was if if if DiGiulio had decided to
go to a different game that day or if he'd have
been hyper focused on just the player he was
there to see and not not everyone else around
him we might never have heard of Bill Russell's
name which is incredible he's a legend of the
game that is a sliding doors moment of sports
history it is incredible But not even just that,
because he was recommended to San Francisco University,
whose coach was called Phil Wolpert. And Phil
Wolpert was known for deploying his players equally,
as in based on their talent, based on merit,
rather than their skin color. And as you can
imagine in the 1950s, that wasn't that common.
There was a lot of, there was a sort of unofficial
quota. Like even in the NBA, you could have,
unofficially, you could have one black player.
Couldn't have two. Certainly couldn't have three
on the court at one time. And Phil Wolpert was
the first NCAA, NCAA coach ever to deploy three
black players on the court at once which was
Russell, a man called Hal Perry and Casey Jones
and Casey Jones also is a member of the Triple
Crown of basketball because Casey Jones by chance
almost followed Bill Russell's career exactly,
he was a teammate of him one of his key teammates
he became teammate at Boston won eight rings
as a player later won two as an assistant and
two as a head coach and as you can imagine very
much in the hall of fame and he played on the
Olympic team with Russell so while they were
at college together they pioneered a move as
well which is now known as the alley -oop which
is where one player passes and another player
already in the air catches and slam dunks it
or lays up but it's always better with a slam
dunk at the end Yeah, Russell saw college as
his way out of poverty, away from racism, and
vowed to give it everything he could. He sucked
in his freshman year, basketball -wise, but he
wasn't on varsity at that point. He was just
sort of in the B team, essentially, in a developmental
team. Yes. But he gave him a chance to work on
his skills there, and by the time he reached
his junior year, his third year of college, he
burst onto the scene, and back -to -back his
last two years of college. His team won NCAA
championships and winning 55 matches in a row
doing so. He was so good. Bill Russell was so
good by this point, the rules were changed to
make defending the basket harder. And there's
a few players in history that's been done for.
One of them is George Mikan, the guy I mentioned
who was his hero, who was another 6 '10 centre.
That was a goaltending rule. And another one
was Lou Alcindor. for whom dunking was banned.
And Lou Alcindor is better known by a different
name, and you've already mentioned him. Yeah.
Kareem Abdul -Jabbar. Yeah. They banned dunking
because of him for a few years in college basketball,
which is insane when you think about basketball
as a sport. Especially as also, like, now they've
sort of realised that dunking is cool. Oh, it's
the best. They have a dunk contest, for goodness
sake. Yeah. So he was very heavily influenced
by... the Civil Rights Movement's 1955, particularly
Emmett Till, Rosa Parks. Anyone who knows about
the Civil Rights Movement will know about their
stories. I won't get into details with them now,
but Emmett Till was a young man, 14 years old,
who was essentially lynched for wolf whistling
at a white woman, which is a horrible story.
I recommend you look at it. It is such a key
story in the history of America, and I strongly
recommend people read up on that. He faced racism,
as you can imagine, during his career at college
and in the professional game. But he said, I
never permitted myself to be the victim. And
it always drove him on. He should have won the
college player of the year in his final season,
but a blonde white man won it instead. Oh, that's
weird. For reasons I'm sure you can imagine.
No, no, it's a mystery, mate. It's a mystery.
I tell you, this guy's quotable. This is what
he said. Russell said, well... That lets me know
that if I were to accept these as the final judges
of my career, I would die a bitter old man, referring
to the people on the selection panel, which I
think is a great quote. That is a good quote.
So, as I mentioned, he won Olympic gold in 1956,
before he was drafted. That was back in the days
where the Olympics were completely amateur, so
college players were in the team. He was also
an Olympic standard high jumper, and he tied
in a 1956 collegiate event with Charles Dumas.
who actually went on to win 1956 Olympic gold.
But he was only allowed to do one sport, so he
chose basketball, which I think was probably
a sensible option. Yeah, good call. I would say
on the spectrum of sporting prestige, basketball
is higher than high jump. Yes. He was invited
to play for the Harlem Globetrotters after college,
but he was enraged that the Globetrotters owner,
Abe Saperstein, would only communicate the request
with his coach, Walpert, and not with him directly
due to his race. Of course. Yep. Told him to
sling his hook. Good for him. So he made himself
eligible for the 1956 draft. So Red Auerbach,
who was a Hall of Fame coach of the Boston Celtics,
set his sights on Russell, fancying that his
defensive talents were the missing piece in the
Celtics puzzle, correctly. They were a good team,
so they had a low draft pick, so he had to do
some trading magic. to get him, trading six -time
All -Star centre Ed McCauley and a future five
-time All -Star and Hall of Famer Cliff Hagen.
So two Halls of Famers with 11 All -Star appearances
between them, and it still turned out to be a
bargain. They also drafted Casey Jones lower
down, so reuniting those two. With them, in the
very first season, turned the Celtics from an
almost team into perennial champions. Right,
so an unstoppable team. unstoppable force they
perfected the hey bill defensive system wherein
anyone struggling defensively would simply yell
hey bill and russell would use his speed to rush
over and double team them so you do that all
game long pretty simple yeah it's a bit like
the um like give the ball to messy mantra yeah
and probably just as effective so wilt chamberlain
wilt chamberlain was a player who unlike almost
had the complete opposite career path to Russell
to the top where Russell had to he had no experience
in basketball wasn't even fancy till his last
game at high school took him a while at college
to get going Wilt Chamberlain was from the age
of about 13 or 14 years old was one of the most
famous young basketball players in the country
he played high school games against teams like
exhibition matches against teams with NBA All
-star players. I think the NBA MVP played him
and got made to look average against him. Walt
Chamberlain was 7 '1", I think he was, in shoes.
A massive man. Bill Russell was 6 '10", but he
towered even over Bill Russell. Can I tell the
funny story about him being tall in the lift?
Please do. I may say it's not my story. Obviously,
I've just seen someone else telling it. Kareem
Abdul -Jabbar. Is it on documentary? I can't
remember what it's called. It's his story, yeah.
Yeah, when he says he was in a lift with him
and someone asked, I guess a stranger who's in
the lift just asked him, what's the weather like
up there? Classic, unimaginative, silly little
joke at the expense of the tall person. And Will
Chamberlain just spat on him and said, it's raining.
I mean... I mean, Will Chamberlain's about seven
inches taller than me, and I've been asked that
question a few times, and it does get annoying,
but I've never spat in anyone's head. Maybe I
should. Maybe next time I will. Probably stop
people asking, or at least that person. Yeah,
and certainly wouldn't ask twice. So, I mean,
the difference between Chamberlain and Russell's
upbringing, the difference between their expectations,
the difference between the way they went about
the game was vast. Will Chamberlain was the ultimate
record chaser, I guess you could call him. He
wanted to be the top scorer. He wanted these
records. He wanted to have his name up in lights.
He became a better team player as he got older,
but certainly in his younger days, he was all
about chasing records and famously got the ultimate
record. 1962, he averaged 50 .4 points per game
during the season, which is frankly ludicrous,
but that average included a 100 -point game.
which is incredible. Playing for the Philadelphia
Warriors. So he always complained that he didn't
have the teammates. He said if he had the teammates
that Bill had had, he'd have got the rings, but
he didn't. I think that's probably fair, though.
The Celtics were... The only people that really
beat them were Chamberlain. Yeah, the only...
So in a 13 -year career, Bill Russell won 11
rings, including eight in a row, which is incredible.
The only exception to that... There was, I think,
1958 and 1967. In 1967, it was Wilt Chamberlain
playing for the Philadelphia 76ers at that point
because the Warriors had moved to San Francisco.
They're now the Golden State Warriors. They were
the San Francisco Warriors, but he got then traded
back to Philadelphia to the Philadelphia 76ers,
and then he won a title with them, Chamberlain.
However, so they played each other. I'll go through
their numbers. So they played each other 94 times.
The final was 57 -37 to Russell. Played each
other in 49 playoff games, which just tells you
everything you need to know about how good they
were. Yeah, how often they came head -to -head.
And Russell won them 29 -20 for an 86 -57 total.
But it was 7 -1 in post -season series. The only
one, that exception, was that 1967 championship
game. So I'm going to talk about the 1969 championship.
Actually, I'm going to say one thing first. Wilt
Chamberlain was the first $100 ,000 a year contract
in the NBA. So hearing this, Bill Russell immediately
went to his management and got a $100 ,001 contract
signed up, which I think tells you everything
you need to know about the... It sounds petty.
I don't want to use the word rivalry for a reason.
Yeah, so this is the point I was going to very
quickly make. That sounds petty, but these guys
are actually really good friends, and they were
lifelong friends, and they didn't like to be
referred to as rivals for that reason. I think
they called each other competitors, and it's
exactly the sort of thing I'd do to you. It is.
It is exactly the sort of thing I would do to
you, just so I can... Because you've jumped the
gun a little bit for me, but I'm going to say
this to you. The guys were mates. They were friends.
This is a time... An important context of this
is this is a time when the NBA was still predominantly
white. There weren't that many black players
in the NBA, even at this point, even though two
of the best players in the league were black
players, which meant that this is still a time
as well, certainly at the beginning of their
career, in the early 60s and late 50s. This is
a time where you couldn't eat in certain restaurants
if you were black. You couldn't visit certain
establishments if you were black. So what happened
generally is whenever they had a road game at
the other one's homes, whenever they traveled
to play the other one, they'd be the ones picking
them up at the airport, the other one up at the
airport. They'd stay at their home. They'd eat
their food. They'd chat to their wives. genuinely
mate and they only fell out once at the end of
the career for a reason I'll get to but they
later made up again they used to do interviews
together in the 80s talk about the game and when
Wilt Chamberlain died in 1999 it was Bill Russell
who gave his eulogy saying Wilt and I were not
rivals we were competitors you see in a rivalry
there's a victor and a vanquished and he was
never vanquished that wasn't a eulogy that was
something you said later but I just I think that's
a lovely quote that is a lovely quote I think
also I read somewhere that When Chamberlain died,
his nephew said that Bill Russell was the second
person whom he was ordered to inform, presumably
after Wilt Chamberlain's wife or someone else.
Yeah, that just puts it into perspective. These
guys were proper tight mates. Yeah, it's incredible.
So I'm just going to talk quickly about the 1969
NBA Finals because it's, as we mentioned, The
dominant team throughout the 1960s by far were
the Boston Celtics, probably the most dominant
team that the NBA has ever had, winning 10 titles
in 12 years at this point, with Bill Russell
at the fore of it. So by this point, I should
mention, Wilt Chamberlain had moved to the Los
Angeles Lakers. Obviously, Russell was still
with the Boston Celtics. The Lakers versus Celtics
is the most... The most played final matchup
in NBA history, 12 times. No one else is close.
No one else is even in the same ballpark. 35
titles between them, 18 to 17 to the Celtics
as of last year. I was going to say, Celtics
are the holders, aren't they? Yeah. 45 % of all
titles have been won by those two teams. They
are miles ahead of third, which is Golden State,
who have seven. And that's only recently. Yeah,
most of them in the past decade, yeah. Yeah,
exactly. So at this point, though, 1969, there
was Lakers players who'd lost multiple finals.
Only Wilt in the team had won one because he'd
won one in the 76ers before joining the Lakers.
But this was a different Celtics team. Stars
like Bob Cousy, Bill Sharman had retired. Bill
Russell and Sam Jones remained, but both were
due to retire at the end of the series. They
had John Havlicek, who was a key man, but the
Lakers had Jerry West, who's famously the man
on the symbol for the NBA, the man on the logo,
the guy dribbling. That's Jerry West. And they
had Wilt Chamberlain, Elgin Baylor, all in their
prime. So the Lakers were the favourites. They'd
won the West while Celtics scraped in the fourth
and final playoff spot in the East. And the Lakers
strode to the final. The Celtics got there, finding
a bit of youthful energy to get themselves to
the final, which was impressive. but the Lakers
obviously had home court advantage with a better
record. Chamberlain had mainly been playing a
team role. As I said, he got better team players.
His defending and his rebounding arguably was
maybe not as good as Russell. I think Russell
generally gets credit for being better because
he was a bit more proactive with his defending.
He would spark fast breaks. He would defend in
a way that he had full control of the situation,
whereas Chamberlain would just get blocks. get
his hand in and block stuff and whatever. Do
enough. Stat -wise, his blocks and his rebound
were better than Russell's. I mean, obviously
it helps him being a literal giant, but nevertheless,
he had talent defensively. So he was playing
more of a defensive role. He'd still average
21 points per game in the season, but Jerry West
and Elgin Baylor were ahead of him on that. But
between them, obviously they were a hell of an
offensive trio. So it went with home court advantage
for the first six games. So it was free all.
going into game seven. The Lakers came within
seven seconds of breaking that though in game
four. So with seven seconds left, Russell benched
himself. I should point out as well, by this
point, Bill Russell was coaching. Yeah, player
manager. Boston Celtics as well as players. Player
manager, yeah, essentially. He'd been doing that
for three years. Had already won a title as a
coach the year before. Now was in that position
again. So he benched himself. Just quickly, Jack.
For anybody who is American who thinks, he wasn't
the general manager, you idiot. He was the coach.
That was a football reference. A soccer reference.
A soccer reference, yeah. Sorry. So the player
manager is what one would call a... head coach
of a soccer team who's also the player on the
team, which is a lot rarer nowadays than it used
to be. In fact, barely ever happens anymore unless
he's a caretaker role. Indeed. Anyway, so yeah,
seven seconds left of game four. Russell had
benched himself because he considered himself
to be a poor free -throw shooter, which he was,
to be fair. He was a poor shooter all round,
actually. His points per game was fairly poor
throughout his career, but his defensive game
obviously made up for that. Sam Jones, in possession
for the winning shot, slipped and somehow got
a shot off the bouncing off the rim. He later
admitted that it was a lucky shot, the no -need
slip, the aim to get it somewhere near the basket
to give Bill Russell a shot at the rebound. He
hadn't realised that Bill Russell had taken himself
off at this point. So on such margins, a series
won and lost, or rings won and lost. Sometimes
you've got to throw up a prayer. Sometimes you
do. So it went to game seven. one of the most
legendary Game 7s of all time. So the owner of
the Lakers was a man called Jack Kent Cook. He'd
had balloons emblazoned with world champion Lakers
hung in nets around the forum rafters, because
obviously Game 7 was in Los Angeles. He'd already
planned for a USC marching band to play Happy
Days Are Here Again as soon as the game ended,
anticipating a Lakers win. There were flyers
laid out in every seat, ready to be held up for
a Lakers win. And unsurprisingly, Bill Russell
found out about this and used it as a motivational
tool, as you can imagine, for the Celtics. And
this is another classic Bill Russell quote. Those
fucking balloons are staying up there. Which
I like. I like that as well. To the point. I
think he probably said it a lot cooler than I
did, but nevertheless, great quote. You mean
you don't have the charisma of one of the greatest
basketball players that ever lived? You know
what? Probably not. I can concede that. So there's
an ongoing feud between Chamberlain and his coach,
who is Butch Vanbray de Kulf. I'm not going to
say that again. Just Chamberlain's coach. You're
getting better at the pronunciations. I'm not
getting better at the pronunciations, Ben. Thank
you for that. My French pronunciation especially
is bad, although that's Dutch, I think. I've
got to encourage you. We're in this together.
Yeah, we win together, we lose together. So yeah,
he'd fallen out of his coach. VBK, as I'm going
to call him, preferring a domineering coaching
style, which had worked in college, but obviously
grated on NBA superstars. Russell, as coach,
understood the Lakers' vulnerabilities. Jerry
West had a hamstring injury at this point, and
they had a poor guard rotation, so he ordered
the Celtics to push with pace and relentless
fast breaks. Celtics ended up leading throughout
most of the game. Early in the fourth, Chamberlain
had picked up his fifth foul. For those of you
who don't know, you can get fouled out in basketball.
If you get six fouls during a match, that's your
game done. You have to go back to the bench at
that point. So he had five fouls at this point.
He never fouled out a game in his career. He
could do that in the Association of Football
sometimes. Get rid of this systematic fouling.
You can have a sub, but you can fuck off and
get off on the bench. It's very subjective to
the referee's opinion in football, as in persistent
fouling will get you a yellow card, but that's
up to the referee to be the judge of that. So
he obviously was on five fouls, but also Russell
was on five fouls and Sam Jones was on five fouls.
That massively hampered, more than anything,
Russell's ability to defend Chamberlain because
one more foul and he's out. There were seven
minutes left. Lakers got a break they needed
when Jerry West drew a foul on Sam Jones. So
that ended his game, it ended his series, and
it ended his Hall of Fame career. That was the
last action of his game. But he got a standing
ovation from both sets of fans on his way out,
which is nice because he's another Hall of Famer.
So just over five minutes remaining, Celtics
up by nine points. Wilt went up for a rebound
but came down limping. He went to the bench with
a knee injury. He claimed later... that he hit
his knee coming down, although footage from it
doesn't actually show that. It doesn't obviously
rule out a tweak making him think he struck something,
but nevertheless, he tried to resume, but it
appeared he could barely walk through. It's a
bit fucking bold to accuse a geezer of lying.
I'm not accusing him of lying. No, not you. But
this is relevant. The narrative, that feels the
most improbable likelihood. I think it's game
seven is the point, and this is relevant, because...
This is relevant with Bill Russell. He was benched.
Backup centre Mel Counts admirably steadied the
Lakers and they surged to close the gap to just
a point with two minutes left. Chamberlain at
this point told his coach that he was ready to
return. The coach, in a stunning moment of pride
or stubbornness, refused, saying, we're doing
just fine without you. It was the coach's final
game coaching the Lakers. This may well be a
considerable factor towards that. To be fair
to the coach, to give him a bit of defence, Counts
had fouls to give and Chamberlain didn't and
there was only two minutes left on the clock.
However, as time ticked on and they needed points,
that argument began to wane a little bit. Boston
were four points up late in the game. Lakers
got the last score, but it wasn't enough. The
game ended 108 -106 with Chamberlain sat on the
sidelines. Benched by the coach at this point.
And the Celtics have won the 1969 NBA Finals.
The balloons never fell. They were the first
team to come back from a 2 -0 deficit to win
the championship. It was Russell's 11th and final
title in his final ever NBA game. The first ever
Finals MVP award was given that year as well.
And it was given to Jerry West, who remains the
only player to win the award from a losing side,
even to this day. West, who's another Hall of
Famer and legend, considered retirement after
the game. Such was the pain of losing the series.
He didn't. And he won his first title in 1972,
so it was a good job he didn't. First and only
title, I think it was. But as we mentioned, they
were friends. They were massive friends, Wilt
and Russell. But the first time they fell out,
first and only time they fell out, was not long
after this. Russell was at a university, and
he was speaking to some students, but he was
unaware that there was a reporter in the crowd
writing down his every word. He never forgave,
basically he said he could never forgive Chamberlain
for the moment of going off during that game.
He said that any injury short of a broken leg
or broken back isn't good enough to go off during
game seven. I think it's obviously, it's a question
of respect for your friend and respect for the
game, I think more than anything. I don't know
if it's a personal thing in that he wanted to
beat the best. He wanted to be the best by beating
the best and he thought that Chamberlain had
worked him at the moment. Yeah, but it's probably
also born out of frustration. you know rather
than like disappointment frustration as opposed
to actually thinking that he's like a bottler
it's probably more just like you know could you
have what if how would that have ended like I
suppose when you've already won 10 rings would
you rather win 10 rings and see your mate score
the winning point in the last minute when you
know he's capable of it or would you rather win
that 11th ring and Less than perfect circumstances.
Yeah, you're up for the fight, aren't you? I
mean, he's a winner. He's a winner, so he obviously
wants to win, but he doesn't want to win properly.
But if you won that many, then you might as well
win some good ones, right? Yeah, and it was his
last ever game as well. So yeah, it kind of shattered
their friendship. It was a while without a word
between them, but later they reconciled. They
were in a room together just for some event or
some broadcast or something like that. Russell
went over to Chamberlain and he just said, I'm
sorry for what I said. And that was it. That
was all. That's all that was needed. That's all
that was needed. That's really cool. I mean,
two really interesting guys who dominated an
era of the sport just before it exploded, really.
Probably fed quite heavily into, you know, the
tone. They set the scene for Kareem Abdul -Jabbar,
certainly. And then, obviously, it became massive
because of Bird and Magic. And they were just...
legend of the sport and you and i was saying
um before we started recording that uh that's
one of the unique features of basketball isn't
it is that it's it's defined by the individuals
more than than most team sports perhaps even
any it's it's easier to define it by the individual
i mean football is not dissimilar i mean football
you have obviously 11 players in the team maybe
18 25 in the squad maybe even less than that
depending on the era uh basketball five players
starting, maybe ten players realistically on
rotation, maybe six. Six who we use for most
of the game. You might have a sixth man, might
even have a seventh man. More so nowadays. There's
more levels of rotation. But back in those days,
five or six players who played the vast majority
of the minutes and it's obviously very easy to
be an individual in that sport and to dominate
as an individual. Dominate as a team, dominate
with a couple of good individuals and then some
good filler around. But you can also associate
your team's success more directly to the talent
of the individual. Oh, yeah. In a way that you
can't in football, rugby, hockey, cricket, certainly.
No, you can point to a single 1984 draft and
think, has anyone in those first two picks been
sensible enough to pick? jordan yeah had a brain
yeah how different the league would have been
because chicago would not have won six titles
in the 1990s had they not drafted michael jordan
no yeah yeah and like and and i think that's
what's interesting about this sport and i think
that's why we've enjoyed talking about these
two guys and it's probably why we're gonna obviously
we're gonna talk a little bit about jordan as
well But we could also, you know, there's plenty
of others you could talk about. We could talk
about Bird. We could talk about Magic. We could
talk about Shaq. We could talk about Kobe. We
could talk about Curry. or LeBron even, I haven't
mentioned. I know you can list greats off in
any sport, but these guys are all winners. They're
not just someone that you consider to be good.
They're all multiple winners and they're all
directly responsible for era -defining success
for their franchise. I think it's notable. I
know this only seems like a minor thing, but
I think it's notable that you basically just
single -named all of those people. But even people
who aren't massively keen on basketball will
know who Kobe is, will know who Shaq is, will
know who LeBron is. Very good observation, mate.
Or Magic, or Larry. Because that's the point,
isn't it? You've nailed it, really, is that we
conceded at the beginning of this episode that
we're not conventional enthusiasts of basketball,
but yet I know every good player from every era.
Well, certainly a lot of them, yeah. And I think
the era we're in now is an interesting one. We
say there's parity. There's no overall superstar
to the same extent there was. Obviously, LeBron
is... still very old at this point yeah incredibly
still going but he's i mean there's plenty of
people we could talk about uh we will talk about
mj we're probably gonna talk about a couple of
coaches but can i do something slightly radical
can i talk about commissioner stern because yeah
i i i was surprised when i saw this on your on
your list but yeah please do yeah just only because
like me and you are not friends of the establishment
as a rule of thumb um Quite the opposite, in
fact, if anyone who listens to a Champions League
episode will know. Yeah, and so I wouldn't ordinarily
give someone in a corporate position kudos. Yeah,
or a disproportionate amount of praise. And perhaps
the only reason I'm doing so is because anyone
who loves basketball will tell me that I'm an
idiot and I don't know the full story and I'm
just speaking from a position of ignorance. And
that may be so, and that would be a fair critique
because I've only scratched the surface. He seems
like a pivotal. It would be undeniable, even
if I'm waxing too lyrical about this guy, to
say that he wasn't a major influence in what
the NBA has become and it wasn't built on the
foundations he laid and the work that he then
did over a 25 -year period. 30 years he was commissioner
for, which is incredible. I mean, because he
basically, the reason I bring him up is because
he's responsible for a massive expansion of the
NBA. Commissioner from 84 to 2014. And in that
time, he brought in the Charlotte Hornets, Miami
Heat, Orlando Magic, Minnesota Timberwolves,
who obviously we've been talking about earlier,
and brought the total up to 27 teams. And then
he also expanded into Canada and the Raptors,
Toronto Raptors and the Vancouver Grizzlies were
brought into the league. And there's one other
that's missing, and I can't remember who it is,
but the total's now 30, as we mentioned at the
beginning. Do you know who it is? Can you do
the deduction? New Orleans Pelicans. Ah, yes.
Very well done. The thing that I thought was
really cool, and I think is actually genuinely
innovative, and to his credit, is what he stopped
doing was he stopped marketing the league's teams.
And he turned the focus onto his star players.
We've just illustrated the efficacy of that ourselves,
just in general conversation. But effectively,
he made your Johnsons, your Byrds, your Jordans,
your Barclays, the stars of the show, and used
that change in marketing strategy to expand the
game internationally, most notably through the
development of the Dream Team. the 1992 US Olympic
team. And Stern was a big, big factor in influencing
the IOC. I think it was to allow professional
players from the NBA to participate in the Olympics
because obviously it's famously, the Olympics
itself is famously amateur as a rule of thumb.
Although that is obviously not the modern Olympics
as you and I recognize it. Not anymore, no. But
it was until the 80s. Yeah. And it still is in
certain sports. It's just that others have adapted
because they realize that it's necessary to have
them in there. A lot of this is built on marketing,
but it's with the players at the heart of it.
Which is the right thing to do. We've already
shown that it is a player -driven sport. And
he got that. Yeah, and that led to commercial
agreements with the likes of Nike and television
rights domestically and internationally. That's
the reason the NBA blew up. But he's also responsible
for some other things that I think are... noteworthy
and at least to his credit even if I'm perhaps
attributing too much goodwill to him but he publicly
supported Magic Johnson when he revealed that
he was HIV positive in 1991 and that the reason
I mentioned that is because that was during a
period of time where that virus was just demonized
and subject to a lot of rumor it's significant
like for anyone who knows much about the AIDS
crisis The ignorance behind it was one of the
key factors in the spread of it and the delay
in reasonable treatments being developed, which
obviously have been developed now. And it's now
not a death sentence as it was at the time. And
one of the big driving forces behind that was
prominent people getting it. Freddie Mercury
being one example and Magic Johnson being another
example, testing HIV positive in 1991. It brought
it to the public's attention. Magic Johnson particularly
being a heterosexual sportsman and not fitting
the bill of the stereotype of someone who would
get the disease made a big difference. They said
that only homosexuals and drug abusers effectively
got it. That was essentially the narrative at
the time. And it was wholly misplaced, ignorant,
as you say, irresponsible. You can frame it however
you like. It was stupid. But Stern did what,
you know, what any other level -headed decent
person would do. And he read the medical literature,
consulted experts. And he's effectively credited
with informing league owners and players and
sponsors and the public more generally because
of the reach of the NBA. And it also just had
a tangential impact, which I... the way these
things do for the better. It introduced player
safety protocols, so you're not allowed to play
when you're bleeding, those sorts of things.
Kind of similar, not the same, but kind of similar
to the sort of stuff we talk about with CTE and
concussion and head injuries. Just like proper
informed analysis leading to improvements. Yeah,
on the back of expert opinion, not on the back
of vibes. yeah or emotional decision making bad
vibes as well um yes yeah and he also he did
other good things like he enormously improved
anti -doping measures in the sport obviously
the 80s is famously dope heavy and we'll probably
touch on that a lot more in like cycling and
athletics and stuff when when they come around
but yeah he uh he pushed that forward in basketball
uh and he also advocated for the one and done
rule uh which is the the minimum age for entry
into the to the draft i think yeah 19 years old
yeah you get you get one so you had to do at
least a year of college yeah before you could
get drafted to stop people being drafted directly
out of high school which was very common there's
actually a history to this like that the you
used to have to do your full college four years
Or at least wait until your graduating class
is done. Because this actually caught Wilt Chamberlain
out. Wilt Chamberlain wanted to go pro early
because he was so dominant in college ball and
so ready to make some money that he wanted to
go. So he quit college after three years, but
he wasn't allowed to be drafted for the NBA for
a year. So he did go off and play a year for
the Holland Globetrotters, including touring
the Soviet Union. And he made like $50 ,000 from
it. Nice. But then they scrapped that rule. There
was a series of like... legal challenges to that
which they ended up scrapping it and a couple
of 18 year olds got drafted straight out of high
school but then it was 20 years before anyone
else did but then it really kicked off in the
in the 90s I think Shaq and Kobe and that generation
so many of them LeBron as well drafted straight
out of high school 18 years old don't get me
wrong they've gone on to do good things but there's
a lot to be said for an education and a bit of
extra coaching yeah and a year an extra year
to grow because you're not really fully grown
at the age of 18 a lot of time well and also
even though these are big guys you go from you
go from no money to big lucrative contracts as
well and yeah and that sort of thing and look
you know as long as you've got good people around
you i guess it doesn't really make any difference
but i think that was his motivation for it because
stern stern was on record as saying if these
kids have the ability to get a little bit more
maturity, a little more coaching, a little bit
more experience overall, that's good. And that
reference, I know why you're humming is because
the terminology these kids was taken as a condescending
reference to young black men. Pissed a lot of
people off, which I think is fair enough. And
he also had, he introduced dress code, which
Allen Iverson famously said, it was a deliberate
attempt to target people who dress like me, who
dress like hip hop. So he's not, this guy's not
perfect. No, it strikes me as just a little bit
similar to the NFL, you know, with the celebrations.
Yes. We've talked about before. Yes, yes, yes.
And this is America. I'm not sure we've talked
about it here before, but we have. It's a white
conservative place, ultimately, even to this
day. Just better than it used to be. Or at least
at this point was better than it used to be.
I'm not sure about now. But anyway, we digress.
And he was actually accused at one point of being
a modern day plantation owner, which I think
was... understood to be more of a dig at the
white leadership of the league compared to the
predominantly black player rosters rather than
him acting in that way. White people making a
lot of money off the labour of black people,
essentially. Would I presume be the comparison
there? The implication here is that and I think
the reason I'm stating this as overtly as I am
is that there was sort of like a racial undertone
to some of this. I think that that would be a
misrepresentation to be honest because whilst
he was an imperfect man I think on balance he
probably got more right for the league than he
got wrong and a lot of African -American players
got opportunities under his stewardship that
they would not have had otherwise and that's
not to say that they wouldn't have deserved it
and the system he implemented shouldn't have
been you know he's some sort of like oracle for
having done it that's not what I'm saying but
like it'd be very It's a juxtaposition to argue
that this man had a problem with black people,
given how much he championed their success. No,
he's just an old white guy. Yeah. And anyway,
to give that some independent flavor, as opposed
to the musings of my mind, LeBron, Michael Jordan.
Magic, Kobe, who actually ended up dying 25 days
later in his well -documented and ill -fated
helicopter journey. They all attended his funeral
and mourned him. He was an innovator. Basketball
definitely wouldn't be where it is without him.
No. Yeah. He did oversee six relocations, which
really fucking annoyed people, as you might imagine.
I know, but it's American sport. It's a systemic
problem. Two lockouts, the only two in NBA's
history, occurred under his stewardship as well,
basically because he was a brutal negotiator.
I think that's when they made the plantation
reference. But yeah, anyway, I just thought it
was interesting. I thought that was a context
that is not often seen in other sports. You don't
usually see one sort of corporate figurehead
having such a major impact on the development
of a league. Yeah. and not pissing everyone off
in the process. It's a bit similar probably to,
not quite with the same sort of, some of the
same undertones, but Pete Rizal a little bit
in the NFL was very well respected. He was NFL
commissioner for a long time and made a huge
change to that league in a way that current Roger
Goodall leadership of the NFL probably won't
be celebrated quite so much in the end. But anyway.
Won't be revered. Yes. Unlike. A man who will
always be revered forever and ever. Getting back
to the players. You've been poised. You've been
vibrating wanting to talk about this man. Since
day one of this podcast. Michael Jordan. This
is a guy that I idolise. He's putting it too
high. Because I don't watch the sport enough.
I think he's someone that just fascinates me.
And engages me. He transcends this. He really
does transcend this sport. You say this about
a few people. But he is just... Bigger than basketball.
He is just like Tiger Woods. Yeah, Usain Bolt.
Very comfortable. Muhammad Ali. Yeah. That's
the company this man is keeping. I mean, anybody
who's seen The Last Dance and anyone who has
a Netflix subscription, which is basically every
single person, I presume. I thought you were
going to say Space Jam for a second there. Anyone
who's seen Space Jam will know how good he is.
I mean, the fact that he carries a cartoon movie
is the only... human being in it for the majority
of it does kind of tell its own story but um
it holds up i watched it not long ago it holds
up it's a good film like anybody's seen the last
dance we'll know really what i'm talking about
here we're talking about the talent the aura
the mentality i mean the mentality is scarcely
comprehensible like terminator the terminator
it it's it's a absolute Lack of acceptance in
anything but 100%, anything but the best possible
performance in himself and his teammates. On
the court and in training. What you said about
himself and his teammates, I think that's perfect
actually. Because you were talking about Wilt
Chamberlain earlier and saying how maybe his
shortcoming was that, at least for a chunk of
his career, he was in it for himself to a certain
extent. MJ is not that guy. This is the ultimate
team player. It's a bit similar to Wayne Gretzky
and the understanding that you can't win by yourself.
Even in a six people on the ice at once, five
people on the court at once, you can't win by
yourself. Otherwise, you'll just get double teamed
six ways to Sunday, which MJ was early in his
career a lot. You need those players around you
so people have someone else to worry about. People
are creating the space for you, creating the,
you know, setting the screens for you, wherever
else you need. Here's a couple of quotes from
people. I just love this, right? So, Kobe called
him Black Jesus. Like Kobe Bryant. Solid start.
Yeah. Shaq said, you don't want to mess with
God. You have to stay away from Mike. Which I
think is, like, again, the hyperbole here. Jesus,
God. My favorite one, though, is from... Roy
Williams, and this is in The Last Dance. I love
this. Yeah, Roy Williams was his assistant coach
at college. And he said, Michael Jordan was the
only player I ever saw who could turn it on and
off whenever he wanted. And he never freaking
turned it off. So good. That is such a great
quote. And I also love the fact as well. I think
I'm taking a lot from The Last Dance here for
obvious reasons. In that show, they talk about
when they go to Paris, and it was a preseason
friendly, and he just puts on a show. I don't
know how many he scored, 40, 50 points or whatever,
maybe 60 points, doesn't really matter, just
shitloads of points, dominated the game, Bulls
won. And there was a journo, I think it is, he's
describing him in the show, and he says he understood
that there would be someone in that audience,
that crowd, who'd come to see him, and it would
be the only time in their life that they would
get to see Michael Jordan. And he was like, they
will get to see Michael Jordan. Not someone pretending
to be him, not half -baked Michael Jordan. You
got to see the man. Yeah. Yeah. It just makes
me wonder how good he was. Like, the people spoke
to speak of him in those terms. Like, this is
elite level sport. The best of the best of the
best. He came to the forefront at a time where,
obviously, on the back of like, larry and magic
it was a time in the 90s where network television
had really taken off like everyone had good tvs
in their homes it's been beamed into every home
in america these games live every game of this
series every law games are in the season and
every sort of playoff game was being beamed in
so these legendary moments that people remember
and they had vcrs they could record it and watch
it over and over again take the games like it's
it's not quite the same as youtube levels or
or you know other social media levels where you
get the highlights immediately afterwards and
you can watch it on repeat as much as you want
but you you have that opportunity to a certain
extent so it's not just like oh did you see the
game last night oh no i didn't know well maybe
you'll catch the highlights later it's like come
over to my place and we'll watch the highlights
together we'll fast forward through you know
the boring bits and we'll get to his shots and
i just it's it's a time where it was ripe for
someone like that to burst out and he just He
was just huge. He was huge. I mean, his shoe
is still going, like the brand. He's made more
from that than he has an entire basketball career
combined. He's made enough that he's sustained
a very large gambling addiction, if you believe
the press, for many a year without going broke,
which is impressive. Yeah, and I think he's on
record of saying, you know, I just enjoy it.
Like, I can afford it. Yeah, there was something
like... people saying, oh, it's mad. He used
to bet like $10 ,000 a game and someone would
be like, well, work it out. Work out how much
you earn in a year and how much Michael earns
in a year and work out how much $10 ,000 is for
him. It's like, that's like you betting 50 cents.
Yeah. I mean, he's just a very, very, very wealthy
dude. I mean, it fascinates me that he didn't
go one in the draft. I mean, he was very good
at college. I don't know. I've not looked into
the reason behind this. I don't know if there
were reasons. I don't know of the two people
who went ahead of him. Am I right in saying one
of the two people who went ahead of him is also
a Hall of Famer? Yes. There is one of the guys
who turns out to be a very, very good player
as well. The film Air is quite good. Obviously,
it's an exaggerated version of the story of through
which Knight got their contract with him. In
that, I think there's an interesting yarn or
anecdote, I don't know how true it is, where
they said that it brought to the attention of
Nike Scout noticed him when at college basketball
they had a really good player in his senior year
who was dominating college basketball that year
and the coach picked Jordan to throw the three
to win the game. Oh yeah, I remember that. And
he was like, why do they throw it to the rookie?
Unless he's unbelievable, basically. The rookie
with ice in his veins. Yeah, yeah. But yeah,
he went third in the 1984 draft, which I think
is pretty insane. Yeah, six NBA titles. Bulls
only ever won titles with him. They're fourth
on the all -time list. All won by Jordan. Which
is mad. If anyone tries to tell you it was a
great team, and it was, I guess, to undermine
my own point, but if anyone tries to tell you
it wasn't Jordan, it's just because they had
a great team. Only Pippen won all six with him.
Yeah, so the other pieces came and went. Yeah.
And one man stayed. Nobody's won more NBA finals,
MVPs, six from six, 100%, 100 % win rate. The
only player to have had a season in which they
won the NBA finals, the NBA final MVP, the season
MVP, the first team all NBA, the first team all
defense, the scoring title, and the leading point
scorer in the playoffs. And he did it four times.
Excellent. So, yeah. And he did it all in 14
years. I think that's the other thing, because
the guy fucked off and played baseball for a
bit. Which is weird. Yeah. And getting conspiracy
theories about why he did that, that's not...
I don't think we need to, but that's a... I mean,
obviously, the death of his father had a huge
impact on that. Yes. His father, who was shot
in a... Was it a robbery gone wrong? Yeah, I
think he was driving some long journey home or
something, and he stopped for a nap, and someone
tried to rob him whilst he was asleep, I think.
There we go. Yeah, and his dad always wanted
him to play baseball, but even so, I guess he
could. He wasn't shit at baseball. I guess that's
what you can say about that. He wasn't shit.
I mean, he got to, obviously, from the back of
his name, he played AAA, I think, which is the
level below the majors, and he hit 220 or something
like that, which is pretty, you know, it's not
going to get you into the majors, but he didn't
embarrass himself. Yeah, I think that's all I
mean. Considering I couldn't just turn up at
the minors now and even hit one of the balls,
the fact that he just went from being a professional
basketball player to playing in the minors I
think is indicative of something. Talent is talent,
isn't it? Yeah. Hand -eye coordination is transferable.
And he's a guy that we'll do a deeper dive on,
so I don't want to dwell on it. But, yeah, I
mean, I'm a big Michael fan, as probably anybody
who loves sport is, because he epitomizes all
the things that make sport fascinating to me
in a single sportsman. Yeah, fair. I mean, we've
spoken a lot about it. We've spoken about the
commissioner, spoken about the players, we've
spoken a bit about teams and the history. I mean,
I guess just to complete the collection, we might
as well give a mention in dispatches to some
coaches. Yeah, a little quick doff of our cap
to a couple of them. One that is a legend and
is probably the greatest man to ever do it, and
then one who we just really love. Yeah, a man
after our own heart and someone I think that
me and you would probably love to meet. Love
to have a beer with, yeah. Love to buy a beer
for. And that man in particular actually also
did win five rings alongside Michael Jordan playing
for the Bulls. He did. But we digress. We'll
talk about the man who coached him to some of
those first. He won three with the Bulls and
two with the Spurs. He won five overall. Was
it? Yeah. Yeah, Steve Kerr. Well, I tried. Steve
Kerr. Yeah. But yeah, should we talk about, do
you want to talk about Steve Kerr first or Phil
Jackson first? Let's talk about Phil Jackson
first, I think. Yeah, okay. You go. You go. You
go. You take the lead. So just, again, more rings
than he has fingers in total. 11 -time NBA champ
to go with two as a player as well for the Knicks,
which is just ludicrous. Three -peat repeat with
the Bulls. So two three -peats with the Bulls.
With MJ Rodman, Pippen, Kerr. We haven't even
mentioned Rodman, who was a madman. We haven't
even mentioned Rodman. Another day. Ridiculous.
Another day. Yeah. Yeah, sorry. Then he went
to the Lakers, and almost immediately, this was
a couple of years later, won five more with them,
including another free -peat. Kobe, Shaq, Derek
Fisher. Just ridiculous. Ludicrous. Ludicrous.
Two dominant teams. He also lost a couple of
finals as well. Lost to the Pistons with the
Lakers in 2004 and lost to the Celtics with the
Lakers, another Celtics -Lakers matchup in 2008.
But he has more postseason wins than anyone and
he has more conference titles than anyone. Legend.
The thing that's really cool as well is between
the 2000 and 2002 Lakers wins and then the 2009
and 2010 ones, he took a bit of time off after
that Pistons win. I think he just fucked off
into the sunset. After the Pistons defeat, sorry,
in 2004. He just decided he was going to have
a break and then he came back and was like, you
know what, fuck it, I want a couple more. Yeah.
I mean, that as a head coach to win 11 is...
11 over the course of what, 17 years? 17, 18
years? 18 probably total. That is incredible.
Yeah. Most post -season wins, 229. Most conference
titles, 13. And obviously, cream rises. You're
going to get the best jobs being the best coach,
but... it is hard to win like it as much as we
say you see the same teams dominating it's because
they have all the pieces in place you always
play a finals against a team who are at least
you're equal or thereabouts you have to get over
the line yeah well yeah that's true and I guess
that like we can transition quite neatly onto
I'm very glad that you picked Phil Jackson first
actually because it allows that transition to
operate smoothly because Steve Kerr is a man
who played under Phil Jackson at the Bulls he
did with MJ And he is a nine -time NBA final
winner, five as a player, as I was just saying
earlier, three with the Bulls, two with the Spurs,
and then four as a coach at Golden State, where
he still is. Really interesting guy for reasons
that transcend basketball. He has a topic of
conversation that I'm not going to shy away from
a controversial topic of conversation when talking
about an American sport, but his father was murdered
in Lebanon in 1984. He was an academic and human
rights activist working for the American University
of Beirut. And as a result of that, Steve Kerr
is a big gun control advocate. Famously, in May
2022, during a press conference ahead of Game
4 of the Western Conference Finals against the
Maverick, after that day's Robb Elementary School
shooting in Texas where 19 children and two teachers
were murdered and 17 others injured by a gunman
wielding semi -automatic weapons. Kerr reiterated
these points very emotionally and very clearly
and inspirationally in my humble opinion. So
there was a filibuster going on at the time where
Republicans in the US Senate were basically trying
to kill a bill which may have benefited, may
have made changes which would stop this kind
of thing happening. He said that they were holding
us hostage and using it to prevent a vote on
gun control legislation and he's also spoken
out against racial inequality as well. He's a
great guy. He is a great guy. He is a great guy.
If anyone hasn't seen, you can see the interview.
It will be on YouTube. The press conference.
There's no faking it. There's no faking that.
He's angry. He's angry. You would be. For something
that you've given a shit about for the obvious
reasons for 20 odd years. Sorry, 40 odd years.
Since one of the most important people in your
life was killed by a gun. and seeing if anything
can getting worse in that time not getting better
seeing all these tragedies have zero positive
consequences coming out of them can you blame
me no i yeah we really like him mainly because
you might as well not make a secret of it jack
we don't like guns not not our not our favorite
things like i i'm not going to get into that
particular debate now i've i've spoken to i've
spoken to Americans by that length in my many
travels to America and you can have some very
reasonable conversations to people about guns
but that doesn't seem to permeate to the top
level of politics there's no sensible conversations
to be had it is a right because it is in the
constitution but Americans need to treat it more
as a privilege and if you believe you are a safe
gun owner well then what problem do you have
with make sure everyone acts as responsible as
you do basically is my summary of it yeah i mean
i'm not even going to get started because i'll
just get annoyed um but i agree with all of your
sentiments and i think steve kerr is a great
advocate um for all the the arguments and the
points that we make and we don't live in america
it's not really our country you know we can't
tell people how to live but it should be a fairly
uncontroversial position to take but nonetheless
it's not well how do we get out of a gun control
hole I don't think we need to. I think we've
done a fine job today. That's how you get out
of it. You just pat each other on the back and
you say, job well done. Where can we watch it?
Well, if you're in the UK, TNT Sports, which
I don't have, but I can probably find it somewhere,
shall we say. In Germany, how do you pronounce
this? Is it DAZN? Is it D -A -Z -N? DAZN, I think.
DAZN. Oh, yeah, that makes sense. DAZN, ProSieben,
and the NBA TV International. TNT in Ireland,
TV4 in Sweden, NowSports and NBA TV International
in Hong Kong. Wow, you have been thorough with
this list. Well done, Ben. Well, mainly because
we do see who listens and where they may be located.
Ah, I see what you've done there. So I thought,
thank you for coming back, guys, if you stuck
with us through another episode. And I thought
I'd throw you a bone directly. yes so um yes
as i mentioned we've got a few listeners around
europe particularly and also in in the far east
and other places and in america so yeah there
we go thank you ben for i didn't even notice
that but that's good um australia new zealand
espn and america turn on the tv yeah yeah don't
take the piss we know that you know and you know
that we know that you know it's espn so don't
try and hide it just just watch the nba finals
guys Cool. Well, that's this week. Where does
life take us next week? So next week, we're finishing
off something we started a couple of weeks ago
now, which was the triple crown of motorsport.
So for those of you who listened to our Monaco
Grand Prix episode, and for those of you who
listened to our Indy 500 bonus episode, we're
finishing that off with the 24 Hours Le Mans
next week, which is on the 14th of June. and
yeah there's a the reason we're doing that episode
because we did had a change to our planned schedule
we're going to do some cricket but we're now
going to do some more motor racing because there
was just such vast depth to Le Mans and the history
of Le Mans is the history of motorsport and there's,
shall we say, plenty of opportunities to cover
cricket in the near future. Yes, there are. There
is a good summer over here. We're playing India,
England that is, and it's also an Ashes year.
So if you like cricket and you were wondering
if we were going to cover the World Test Championships,
don't be disappointed. Cricket is a coming. It
is one of our favourite sports and it would be
our wheelhouse. Yes. Sports we've played and
watched for many a year. Badly, but yes. Watched
well. I mean, you're better than me at cricket.
nice well should we leave it there i think so
all right mate well um speak to you next week
miss you already love you mate love you too bye
-bye bye A huge, huge thank you once again for
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