WEBVTT

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The lights are bright and the anthems roaring.

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From the Faroes to France and Cyprus to Spain,

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they come. They face off against the best. In

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Europe's greatest theatres they duel. The Camp

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Nou, the San Siro, Anfield and the Estadio de

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Luz. One by one they fall until two remain. But

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there can be only one. Die Meister, die Besten,

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Le Grande Equipe, the Champions. They walk in

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footsteps of legend. Of controversy. Of miracle.

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Of genius. of awe and heartbreak contained in

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a single moment. This is the Sporting Almanac

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Podcast. morning Ben yes good morning good morning

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yeah bright and early on the morning after the

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night before where Arsenal won the Champions

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League yes in the ladies yes it was it was good

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actually I watched it yeah rear guard it was

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uh I say rear guard rear guard but comfortable

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it wasn't a backs against the wall you did what

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you have to do to win yeah yeah and also fuck

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Barcelona ladies Fair enough. Well, they're like

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dominant at the moment in European women's football.

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Them and Lyon. And we've done them both. Yeah.

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And when you deal with Chelsea at home, who are

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just as dominant in the domestic game, it's nice

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to have a different name on the trophy. Exactly.

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Leah Williamson just adding to the trophy pile.

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You'll love to see it. It's like the female version

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of Tony Adams, that woman. Mrs. Arsenal. to go

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with Mr. Arsenal. Anyway, sorry, I could do that

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all day. As much as, yeah, I was going to say,

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as much as we'd love to talk about that all day,

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that is not the Champions League competition

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we're here to discuss. We're here to discuss

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the men's competition, formerly the European

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Cup. Yeah. Yeah, the men's final being this coming

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Saturday and it is Inter Milan or Internacional

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versus Paris Saint -Germain PSG. Inter versus

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PSG. Yes, to give them their full title. Which

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is easy to say. Somewhere between there, there

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were two teams. We're in a bit of a purple patch

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of the footballing calendar, aren't we? All the

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European finals come thick and fast. Obviously,

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begrudgingly, congratulations to Spurs having

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won the Europa League. And then you've got Chelsea

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coming up in the Conference League. Not commiserations

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to Man United. That's just funny. And then he

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goes straight into the Champions League final

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as well. And also all the seasons crescendo at

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the same time. There's been some good ends to

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that. But yes, we've got the champions of France

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going up against, they're now runners -up in

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Italy. Only just, but yeah. They got done by

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Napoli, but they were the champions last year.

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McSource. putting the sword to Inter, but yes.

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Who'd have thought Scott McTominay would be one

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of the best players in Europe? But here we are.

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But yeah, so yes, just a couple of days, like

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the build -up, yeah, it's a good patch for the

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footballing calendar. And this is the cherry

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on that cake. yeah and just to add to that congratulations

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to Aberdeen for winning the Scottish Cup yesterday

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and congratulations massive congratulations to

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Sunderland for getting promoted I'm delighted

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by that yes I forgot this has been a good weekend

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of football actually and we're actually recording

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this as the Premier League wraps up so we can't

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comment on who is in the Champions League next

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year with certainty yet But it looks like it's

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going to be... Other than Arsenal and Liverpool.

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Yeah, five... Probably Manchester City. Yeah,

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it's going to be five from seven, by the looks

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of things. So, yeah. It's about the only exciting

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thing left in the Premier League to decide. Indeed.

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But, speaking of the Champions League, shall

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we dive into that? Yes. Formerly known as the

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European Cup. Straightforward. Head first. And

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you're our historian, our resident historian,

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so... I do have some history on this, yeah. Why

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don't you just introduce us? So I am going to

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apologise, first of all, to our non -English

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listeners today for the approach I'm going to

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take here, which is going to be really Anglo

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-centric, but that's deliberate and it's not

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necessarily in defence of England, Britain, English

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football, the Football Association and various

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other things. So I'll apologise further to our

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English listeners for what I'm about to say,

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because I have. Many opinions on it. But essentially,

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the history of how the European Cup came to be

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stems heavily from British exceptionalism and

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how the game developed at home after its initial

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creation. Is this because a lot of it's pre -war?

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Because the European Cup only came about after

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the post -war, right? Yeah, 1955. Because we

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were colonialists and empire builders. I imagine

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that we had a world championship that consisted

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of an American style. you're uh you're getting

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ahead of me ben but you are absolutely spot on

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oh really so yep go on then uh first of all i'm

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going to be i'm going to refer interchangeably

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a little bit to british exceptionalism and english

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exceptionalism today you can essentially assume

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they are one and the same thing for this context

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the british press will lord a Scottish team when

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they win something or a Scottish player when

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they win something so see Andy Murray for that

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in tennis generally speaking the prestige of

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the nation of the United Kingdom of Great Britain

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and Northern Ireland has generally rested in

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the press's eyes at least and the powers that

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be's eyes with the England team English teams

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and the England national team in this case First

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of all, I'd like to give a heads up to the Sporting

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History podcast, just calling out another podcast

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because I got a lot of this information from

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one episode of them with Aaron Hicks speaking

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about Wolves and Arsenal playing European teams,

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which is quite interesting and I'll get to. But

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yeah, just a shout out to them. It's a very good

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podcast if you like your pure history. And we

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do here on the Almanac, as people have probably

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gathered. We do. I very much enjoy their podcast.

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It's a good endorsement. It's quite intellectual,

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but it is good. As we know, and anyone who listened

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to our FA Cup episode will know, the sport of

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football as we know it was sealed in England

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with the foundation of the FA in 1863. And from

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that point forward, the FA and the men in charge

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of the game in England and the press and the

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powers that be could not bring themselves to

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hold any belief other than English superiority

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for the best part of the next 100 years, no matter

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what the evidence showed. 100 years, Jesus. The

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best part of, yeah. So, as you correctly mentioned,

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there were a number of matches and events declared

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world championships in the early days of the

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sport, involving English and Scottish clubs competing.

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and we wonder where the Americans get it from.

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I was going to say, I was literally just about

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to say, for all my castigating of the NFL and

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world championships, perhaps I should have looked

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closer to home in the first instance. Well, there's

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a lot of parallels you can make about modern

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American exceptionalism and British exceptionalism

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around the early 1900s, the last vestiges of

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a waning empire perhaps, but let's not get into

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that. The most notable of these world championships

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was an 1895 match between Heart of Midlovian,

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better known as Hearts, and Sunderland. Oh, nice.

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Topical. A lot of people who are Sunderland fans

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are probably quite hungover at this particular

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moment. The state of Trafalgar Square would suggest

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so. Excellent. You'll love to see it. That match

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was won by Sunderland, 5 -3. Both of those teams

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were the respective champions of their nation,

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so it was the first time the two champions of

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two European leagues met officially, which is

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obviously relevant to this story. Different competitions

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developed from there, most notably the Sir Thomas

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Lipton Trophy. which was held in Turin, involving

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clubs from Germany, Italy, Switzerland and England.

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Twice in 1909 and 1911 it was held, funded by

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Sir Thomas Lipton. I think I read about this.

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I'm sure you're going to summarise some of them,

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but there was quite a few multi -state cross

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-championship tournaments, weren't there? But

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none of them were official. Yeah, there was a

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few early on. So the Sir Thomas Lipton Trophy

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was an invitational. held in Turin, as I say,

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so teams from Turin. There was a Torino team

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originally. Juventus took part in the second

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tournament. The FA, establishing a pattern they

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would maintain until both wars had passed, pretty

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much, refused to send a team. I personally speculate,

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in my cynical nature, that was because they were

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worried about losing that air of superiority

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they had by losing to Johnny Forerunner, essentially.

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That sounds probable. Yeah. Instead of the FA

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sending a team from the Football League. They,

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for some reason, which are completely unclear

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even to this day, West Auckland Town FC, a Northern

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League side from County Durham in the north of

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England, were sent to represent English interests

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in that tournament. And as it turns out, the

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FA needn't have worried. This plucky group of

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amateur coal miners defeated a team from Stuttgart

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in the semis and Vinterfer from Switzerland to

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win the trophy. And two years later, they went

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and won it again, this time defeating Juventus

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6 -1. in the second and last final of the tournament.

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So that's a boss story, but it kind of is a shame

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that it endorsed the views. I know, it is, isn't

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it? However, I'm never unhappy about a bunch

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of amateur coal miners going halfway across Europe

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on their own buck as well. They paid their way

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there and winning a tournament. Exactly, it's

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a hell of a story. Obviously, this is very early

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days of Italian football, 20 years before Italy

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were one of the best teams in the world, which

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we'll come to. So further pan -European competitions

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followed. The Mitropa Cup, which started in 1927

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and actually ran until 1992, which included teams

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from Central and Eastern Europe, including Italy.

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These were teams, this competition started in

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1927. I don't think it's any coincidence that

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1934 and 1938 World Cups, teams from this competition,

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these countries, dominated the World Cup. two

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of the early world cups italy won 1934 and 1938

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and beat czechoslovakia and hungary in those

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finals and having this go very far to explaining

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why uruguay did so well early on though well

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uruguay did so well early on because barely any

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teams from europe went to uruguay for the first

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competition because it was about you know three

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weeks on the boat and a large expense to get

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there so i think it was Belgium, France, Romania

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and Yugoslavia were the only teams to go there.

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Egypt were supposed to go there and miss the

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boat. Oh yes, good knowledge. Anyway, digressing

00:12:33.169 --> 00:12:34.929
into the World Cup. They went out 16 teams, only

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13 teams took part. Nevertheless, so actually

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it was in 1930 at the same time as the first

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World Cup in Uruguay that the first proper pan

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-European competition for league champions was

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made called the Coupe des Nations. Coupe des

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Nations? Coupe de Nation. My French pronunciation

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is terrible, so I apologise. It was held in Geneva.

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I bet you got the coupe right. I got the coupe

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right. So it was hosted by Servette FC, a Swiss

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club. And as I said, held at the same time as

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the 1930 World Cup, which only four countries

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went to. I didn't just pluck those names off

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the top of my head. I did have them written down.

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So not that much of a smart arse. So it was won

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by Uyepest. FC of Hungary, and I think I've got

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the pronunciation of that right because I had

00:13:24.690 --> 00:13:27.769
to Google it, winning out of 10 European nations

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competing, notably absent, this will shock you,

00:13:31.250 --> 00:13:34.429
were the home nations, as England had, unsurprisingly,

00:13:34.590 --> 00:13:38.110
quit FIFA in 1928. Well, you know, there's something

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to be said for that if they did it now. Indeed.

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So, the FA were reluctant to initially join FIFA

00:13:46.730 --> 00:13:50.059
when it was formed in 1904. with the new organisation's

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state of purpose firstly being to promote international

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football, which the FA weren't keen on, save

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the Home Nations Championship, between England,

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Scotland, Wales and Ireland, later Northern Ireland.

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And secondly, their state of purpose was to help

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standardise the laws of the game, which the FA

00:14:05.639 --> 00:14:09.159
considered their job. Yes, well, that's not surprising.

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This has been ongoing. That's still something

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that actually happens in cricket, very, like,

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influentially. With the MCC. Yeah. I think they're

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still the lawmakers, technically. Yeah. Or if

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they're not, they certainly think they are. Anyway,

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I won't get into how it works in football, but

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nevertheless. Eventually, the new organisation,

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FIFA, clearly was going to become powerful, so

00:14:36.639 --> 00:14:39.559
it made more sense to be in it than out of it.

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So reluctantly, in 1906, they joined, the FA

00:14:44.120 --> 00:14:45.919
joined, and as was the custom at the time, brought

00:14:45.919 --> 00:14:48.039
the other home nation FAs with them, because

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they all acted as one body pretty much in the

00:14:49.759 --> 00:14:52.700
early days. However, this accord didn't last.

00:14:52.879 --> 00:14:55.919
In 1928, a dispute over amateurism. FIFA wanted

00:14:55.919 --> 00:14:59.620
to relax it to allow better players to play in

00:14:59.620 --> 00:15:01.990
the Olympics, which they were in charge of. The

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FA being run by probably the children of the

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original founders of the game, the inheritors

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of the estates and the lordships of the original

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founders of the game, weren't so keen on distilling

00:15:16.049 --> 00:15:19.470
amateurism because they believed in the principles

00:15:19.470 --> 00:15:24.190
of sport being for bettering yourself. Cracking

00:15:24.190 --> 00:15:27.710
the whip. The amateur system suited their needs.

00:15:27.809 --> 00:15:31.580
We can call it what it was. Yeah, I mean, the

00:15:31.580 --> 00:15:33.840
fact that the professional players were largely

00:15:33.840 --> 00:15:36.759
made up of working class men, obviously nothing

00:15:36.759 --> 00:15:39.139
came into it. The opportunity for working class

00:15:39.139 --> 00:15:41.720
men to bear themselves obviously wasn't a disgusting

00:15:41.720 --> 00:15:43.799
concept to them at all, but let's not get too

00:15:43.799 --> 00:15:47.980
political about it. So as a result of this, they

00:15:47.980 --> 00:15:54.549
left FIFA in 1928 and they also... believed continental

00:15:54.549 --> 00:15:56.509
football at this point, as I mentioned before,

00:15:56.570 --> 00:15:59.210
to be inferior and tactically lacking, which

00:15:59.210 --> 00:16:01.570
was fairly rich coming from a nation whose only

00:16:01.570 --> 00:16:03.990
real tactical development in the past 40 years

00:16:03.990 --> 00:16:06.710
had been to put a centre -half in defence rather

00:16:06.710 --> 00:16:09.889
than midfield, courtesy of Herbert Chapman. That

00:16:09.889 --> 00:16:12.450
was about it. I mean, that's still about it.

00:16:13.929 --> 00:16:18.809
Pretty much, yeah. It's an awfully English thing.

00:16:19.889 --> 00:16:24.440
I could go off on a tangent. Yeah. about english

00:16:24.440 --> 00:16:28.500
tactical inflexibility the oh if anybody wants

00:16:28.500 --> 00:16:31.179
to know our genuine opinion on this is that there's

00:16:31.179 --> 00:16:33.080
a reason that england have been unsuccessful

00:16:33.080 --> 00:16:36.120
internationally and if you look into it even

00:16:36.120 --> 00:16:41.320
like a you know paying a fucking passing notional

00:16:41.320 --> 00:16:44.940
amount of attention then you'll realize that

00:16:44.940 --> 00:16:47.879
it's because we're completely and utterly inept

00:16:47.879 --> 00:16:54.299
like functioning as a strategic tactical footballing

00:16:54.299 --> 00:16:56.700
structure. As an elite sporting outfit. Yeah,

00:16:56.720 --> 00:17:03.480
exactly. We're not unlucky. This idea that England

00:17:03.480 --> 00:17:05.740
haven't won anything for a long time is not born

00:17:05.740 --> 00:17:12.059
out of luck. It's because we are arrogant and

00:17:12.059 --> 00:17:15.660
think that our way is the best way. The amount

00:17:15.660 --> 00:17:20.079
of criticism Alf Ramsey got for his wingless

00:17:20.079 --> 00:17:23.900
wonders system. in the 1966 World Cup for not

00:17:23.900 --> 00:17:29.519
playing the quintessentially English setup. So

00:17:29.519 --> 00:17:31.579
this is all linked. Honestly, this is all linked.

00:17:31.720 --> 00:17:37.690
So this English exceptionalism and the... the

00:17:37.690 --> 00:17:40.190
early struggles of the England national team

00:17:40.190 --> 00:17:42.069
and these English teams in continental competitions

00:17:42.069 --> 00:17:45.170
and the later development of the English team

00:17:45.170 --> 00:17:47.710
firstly the England national team into world

00:17:47.710 --> 00:17:51.069
champions and English clubs into the dominant

00:17:51.069 --> 00:17:54.069
clubs in Europe in the 70s and 80s came off the

00:17:54.069 --> 00:17:55.710
back of being involved in these competitions

00:17:55.710 --> 00:17:58.990
and seeing more ways to play the game and learning

00:17:58.990 --> 00:18:02.750
from it it's no coincidence that I'm going to

00:18:02.750 --> 00:18:04.789
go into this about these friendly matches soon

00:18:04.789 --> 00:18:08.589
these friendly matches between the likes of Wolverhampton

00:18:08.589 --> 00:18:11.809
Wanderers and Arsenal and Soviet teams and Eastern

00:18:11.809 --> 00:18:14.190
European teams and seeing different tactical

00:18:14.190 --> 00:18:17.609
setups and teams mimicking that essentially.

00:18:17.910 --> 00:18:22.890
So famously, Dom Rivi, who later had fame as

00:18:22.890 --> 00:18:25.210
Leeds United's manager, I think he played for

00:18:25.210 --> 00:18:28.089
Man City, although I will apologise if I'm wrong

00:18:28.089 --> 00:18:30.589
on that, but they started utilising him as essentially

00:18:30.589 --> 00:18:33.269
a deep -lying forward, like a false nine, what

00:18:33.269 --> 00:18:35.670
we would call today, having seen the Hungarians

00:18:35.670 --> 00:18:39.279
do it. in both the 1954 World Cup and when they

00:18:39.279 --> 00:18:40.940
came over and played Wolverhampton Wanderers,

00:18:40.940 --> 00:18:47.119
a Hungarian team, in 1954. And they got a lot

00:18:47.119 --> 00:18:49.619
of success from doing that, from playing in a

00:18:49.619 --> 00:18:51.839
different way. And it just broke this tactical

00:18:51.839 --> 00:18:54.220
rigidity. But only in individual form. They were

00:18:54.220 --> 00:18:56.519
still criticised in the press for not playing

00:18:56.519 --> 00:18:58.700
the British way. They were still criticised by

00:18:58.700 --> 00:19:03.410
the FA for doing so. English sides or England

00:19:03.410 --> 00:19:08.069
has had any success is effectively outliers bucking

00:19:08.069 --> 00:19:11.269
the trend temporarily. Yeah. Like there has been

00:19:11.269 --> 00:19:18.470
no systematic evolution or change in the way

00:19:18.470 --> 00:19:23.210
in which like English football and England, it

00:19:23.210 --> 00:19:27.150
plays. It makes the league kind of exciting sometimes.

00:19:27.349 --> 00:19:29.289
But anyway, I know I'm taking this down like

00:19:29.289 --> 00:19:32.529
rabbit holes. I just want to quash this idea

00:19:32.529 --> 00:19:37.990
that it's bad luck. I think this is a good rabbit

00:19:37.990 --> 00:19:39.470
hole because I don't think we're going to get

00:19:39.470 --> 00:19:42.490
a better opportunity than this to just slag off

00:19:42.490 --> 00:19:45.400
the English establishment. Which is, it needs

00:19:45.400 --> 00:19:47.160
to be done because they've held the England national

00:19:47.160 --> 00:19:49.680
team and English teams generally backed by their

00:19:49.680 --> 00:19:51.980
rigid conservatism and their unwillingness to

00:19:51.980 --> 00:19:54.380
appreciate the fact that other countries are

00:19:54.380 --> 00:19:56.220
doing it better than us. Way better. And they

00:19:56.220 --> 00:19:59.240
always have. And the reason that we're good at

00:19:59.240 --> 00:20:02.279
the moment, if you can call us good, and I think,

00:20:02.359 --> 00:20:05.039
you know, two finals and a semi is worthy of,

00:20:05.059 --> 00:20:08.099
like, you know, it is good by our standards at

00:20:08.099 --> 00:20:13.099
least. It's also because we have a series of

00:20:13.099 --> 00:20:16.480
talented managers from around Europe who have

00:20:16.480 --> 00:20:19.480
come over to the UK and developed... Precisely.

00:20:19.599 --> 00:20:23.039
Yeah, and Arsene Wenger changed Arsenal's academy

00:20:23.039 --> 00:20:25.799
and its culture and produced, obviously, a lot

00:20:25.799 --> 00:20:28.660
of good players. Jurgen Klopp and Pep Guardiola

00:20:28.660 --> 00:20:31.319
are two of the greatest managers possibly ever.

00:20:32.460 --> 00:20:36.130
Yeah. And that's the reason that we've got these

00:20:36.130 --> 00:20:38.390
good technical guys. And yet we still try and

00:20:38.390 --> 00:20:41.589
shoehorn them into a fucking traditional English

00:20:41.589 --> 00:20:44.269
style of play and wonder why Spain turn up with

00:20:44.269 --> 00:20:48.410
some technical ability and some tactical nous

00:20:48.410 --> 00:20:55.109
and do the same with Italy. God, it drives me

00:20:55.109 --> 00:20:58.869
mad. I would highly recommend for anyone who

00:20:58.869 --> 00:21:01.890
is into football history and football tactics.

00:21:02.509 --> 00:21:04.309
I would highly recommend Inverting the Pyramid

00:21:04.309 --> 00:21:06.609
by Jonathan Wilson. It is the best book on football

00:21:06.609 --> 00:21:09.130
I've ever read in my life. It's fantastic. But

00:21:09.130 --> 00:21:11.049
one thing from that book which always stood out

00:21:11.049 --> 00:21:14.309
to me is that there was analysis done by, I've

00:21:14.309 --> 00:21:15.690
forgotten his first name, but a man whose surname

00:21:15.690 --> 00:21:20.109
was Reap, that it was into, it's basically statistical

00:21:20.109 --> 00:21:24.549
analysis of football. And he worked out that

00:21:24.549 --> 00:21:29.109
91 .5 % of moves in the game he studied had three

00:21:29.109 --> 00:21:32.079
passes or fewer. and logically took that to mean

00:21:32.079 --> 00:21:35.259
that 91 .5 % of all goals would come from moves

00:21:35.259 --> 00:21:38.140
with three passes or fewer. However, his analysis,

00:21:38.359 --> 00:21:40.680
and I'm sorry, this is very statistically heavy,

00:21:40.779 --> 00:21:42.500
but some people might find this interesting.

00:21:43.019 --> 00:21:45.559
His analysis also showed that fewer than 80 %

00:21:45.559 --> 00:21:47.380
of goals came from moves with three passes or

00:21:47.380 --> 00:21:50.539
fewer. Therefore, his own work shows that moves

00:21:50.539 --> 00:21:52.299
with three passes or fewer are less effective

00:21:52.299 --> 00:21:55.299
than those with four or more. But the top line

00:21:55.299 --> 00:21:58.690
was the one that was taken. I mean, these figures

00:21:58.690 --> 00:22:00.589
don't even take into account goals scored after

00:22:00.589 --> 00:22:02.849
long chains of passes have led to a breakdown

00:22:02.849 --> 00:22:07.029
or a corner or something like that. But nevertheless,

00:22:07.470 --> 00:22:10.950
it is... I'm just going to quote Jonathan Wilson

00:22:10.950 --> 00:22:13.509
entirely. It is frankly horrifying that a philosophy

00:22:13.509 --> 00:22:15.829
founded on such a basic misinterpretation of

00:22:15.829 --> 00:22:17.480
figures... could have been allowed to become

00:22:17.480 --> 00:22:20.480
a cornerstone of English coaching. Anti -intellectualism

00:22:20.480 --> 00:22:22.880
is one thing, but faith in wrong -headed pseudo

00:22:22.880 --> 00:22:26.500
-intellectualism is far worse. And he's talking

00:22:26.500 --> 00:22:29.079
about the long ball game that became the norm

00:22:29.079 --> 00:22:32.000
in the English game on the basis of this analysis.

00:22:32.599 --> 00:22:35.819
You saw it as recently as the last FA Cup final

00:22:35.819 --> 00:22:38.640
when in commentary, Sean Dyche, like... Because

00:22:38.640 --> 00:22:40.880
Palace knock it up to Matetu, holds the ball

00:22:40.880 --> 00:22:44.220
up and play it out to Munoz and he whips it across

00:22:44.220 --> 00:22:47.339
and Eze scores. He's sat there waxing lyrical

00:22:47.339 --> 00:22:50.859
about the long ball game because it pays off

00:22:50.859 --> 00:22:53.220
very occasionally. And don't get me wrong, there's

00:22:53.220 --> 00:22:55.220
a time and a place for switching up your tactics,

00:22:55.319 --> 00:22:57.240
but this notion that you should be wedded to

00:22:57.240 --> 00:23:01.660
it, it's a self -fulfilling prophecy if you always

00:23:01.660 --> 00:23:04.180
look at it after the fact and say, oh, it worked

00:23:04.180 --> 00:23:07.289
this time. There's a reason Man City are more

00:23:07.289 --> 00:23:09.450
than Palace. It's not because they're both playing

00:23:09.450 --> 00:23:12.329
long ball. Obviously, there's other factors,

00:23:12.390 --> 00:23:16.869
but tactically speaking. The reason the long

00:23:16.869 --> 00:23:19.589
ball game and that type of football went out

00:23:19.589 --> 00:23:21.950
of popularity in England, at least in the Premier

00:23:21.950 --> 00:23:23.869
League and the Championship, the higher levels

00:23:23.869 --> 00:23:25.609
of English football, because it is still more

00:23:25.609 --> 00:23:29.650
prevalent the lower you go, is because the Premier

00:23:29.650 --> 00:23:31.799
League, obviously... led to more money coming

00:23:31.799 --> 00:23:33.619
into the game. More money coming into the game

00:23:33.619 --> 00:23:35.759
led to more opportunities to make money through

00:23:35.759 --> 00:23:38.319
the Champions League, through European qualification.

00:23:38.839 --> 00:23:41.299
And as a result of that, these private companies,

00:23:41.539 --> 00:23:43.180
Premier League clubs, started hiring the best

00:23:43.180 --> 00:23:45.700
managers for the job, which was Arsene Wenger

00:23:45.700 --> 00:23:51.640
and Jose Mourinho and the like that had preceded

00:23:51.640 --> 00:23:53.779
them, obviously Klopp and Guardiola and many,

00:23:53.880 --> 00:23:56.220
many others. These managers who had a completely

00:23:56.220 --> 00:23:57.900
different way of thinking. Anyone who's managed

00:23:57.900 --> 00:24:01.740
Chelsea, basically, as well. Yeah, I mean, the

00:24:01.740 --> 00:24:05.420
launch list of... Yeah, Ancelotti. They've had

00:24:05.420 --> 00:24:09.619
a lot of very good managers for not a whole lot

00:24:09.619 --> 00:24:11.799
of success unless Mourinho was in charge. Conte.

00:24:13.880 --> 00:24:16.279
Conte, yeah. Who did win a league, to be fair.

00:24:16.819 --> 00:24:19.400
And has just won the league again in Italy with

00:24:19.400 --> 00:24:24.380
Napoli. Yeah. Anyway, sorry. I dragged us onto

00:24:24.380 --> 00:24:29.990
a pummeling England, practically. It needs to

00:24:29.990 --> 00:24:33.450
be done. Anyway, just to give everyone who's

00:24:33.450 --> 00:24:37.170
not English a laugh, this idea of British -English

00:24:37.170 --> 00:24:40.789
superiority was dealt a very heavy blow. Having

00:24:40.789 --> 00:24:43.970
rejoined FIFA in 1946, England went to the 1950

00:24:43.970 --> 00:24:46.430
World Cup and lost 1 -0 in one of their games

00:24:46.430 --> 00:24:49.250
to the United States of America. Yeah, shocking.

00:24:49.529 --> 00:24:53.440
Anyway. But you read the press reports on that.

00:24:53.619 --> 00:24:55.380
They're blaming individuals. They're blaming

00:24:55.380 --> 00:24:57.380
referees. They're blaming poor pitch conditions,

00:24:57.680 --> 00:24:59.660
wherever it might be. They're not blaming the

00:24:59.660 --> 00:25:02.220
dated tactics and the approach that's being defended

00:25:02.220 --> 00:25:07.640
all the way through. It's this notion of we do

00:25:07.640 --> 00:25:11.039
it right because it's our game. And this exceptionalism

00:25:11.039 --> 00:25:12.859
is just present for everything. I'm going to

00:25:12.859 --> 00:25:14.619
get on to why this is relevant to the European

00:25:14.619 --> 00:25:18.380
Cup soon, I promise. Go ahead. Anyway, 1948.

00:25:18.559 --> 00:25:20.839
In fact, I'm going to do it now. 1948, South

00:25:20.839 --> 00:25:23.039
America brought out their own continental competition,

00:25:23.240 --> 00:25:25.140
which was called the South American Championship

00:25:25.140 --> 00:25:27.279
of Champions, which is an excellent name. Obviously,

00:25:27.319 --> 00:25:29.519
that's translated from the Spanish. Is that now

00:25:29.519 --> 00:25:34.519
the Copa Libertadores? It's now the Copa Libertadores.

00:25:34.900 --> 00:25:37.740
The Copa Libertadores. God, my penultimate...

00:25:37.740 --> 00:25:42.480
I really... Anyway, a French journalist at Le

00:25:42.480 --> 00:25:45.200
Keep, a sporting newspaper, called Jacques Ferrand,

00:25:45.319 --> 00:25:47.319
who, very interestingly, bear in mind this is

00:25:47.319 --> 00:25:49.910
1948, only actually died six years ago. He died

00:25:49.910 --> 00:25:52.970
in 2019 and he was, I think, 98 years old. So

00:25:52.970 --> 00:25:57.150
he became fascinated with the idea and obsessed

00:25:57.150 --> 00:25:59.509
with it being replicated in Europe. He had a

00:25:59.509 --> 00:26:02.269
colleague named Gabriel Hano, who was a very

00:26:02.269 --> 00:26:05.250
influential man in early European Cup football.

00:26:05.589 --> 00:26:08.650
They began making inquiries about this becoming

00:26:08.650 --> 00:26:12.089
a thing. But it was events in 1953 and 1954 which

00:26:12.089 --> 00:26:14.789
saw this accelerate due to, as always, British

00:26:14.789 --> 00:26:17.470
exceptionalism pissing the French off, essentially.

00:26:18.079 --> 00:26:21.380
Well, fair enough, yeah. Yeah, and I don't blame

00:26:21.380 --> 00:26:22.839
them. I actually quite like the fact that the

00:26:22.839 --> 00:26:24.960
French have got a long -standing history of doing

00:26:24.960 --> 00:26:27.700
these weird things in football as well, like

00:26:27.700 --> 00:26:32.559
the Ballon d 'Or. Yeah, so I think they get it

00:26:32.559 --> 00:26:37.180
in a way that English authorities don't. I think

00:26:37.180 --> 00:26:42.819
the French culture is a bit less... Challenges

00:26:42.819 --> 00:26:46.440
the status quo frequently. Yes. shall we say

00:26:46.440 --> 00:26:49.000
not concentrated in a small number of individuals

00:26:49.000 --> 00:26:52.880
who are all wealthy and have a similar mindset

00:26:52.880 --> 00:26:55.619
they love a rebellion or a revolution no matter

00:26:55.619 --> 00:26:58.720
how trivial in fact yes they got rid of a lot

00:26:58.720 --> 00:27:00.500
of those people in one fell swoop in the late

00:27:00.500 --> 00:27:07.460
18th century so So at this time, it wasn't uncommon

00:27:07.460 --> 00:27:09.640
for, as I mentioned, teams across Europe to play

00:27:09.640 --> 00:27:11.900
high -profile friendlies against opponents from

00:27:11.900 --> 00:27:13.759
other countries, these often serving as diplomatic

00:27:13.759 --> 00:27:16.500
occasions as well as sporting ones. So after

00:27:16.500 --> 00:27:19.440
the death of Stalin in 1953, the Soviet Union

00:27:19.440 --> 00:27:22.059
became a bit more open about playing these sort

00:27:22.059 --> 00:27:25.660
of games. And notably, Arsenal went on a tour

00:27:25.660 --> 00:27:29.180
there in 1954, post -Stalin's death, with the

00:27:29.180 --> 00:27:31.799
British government very openly questioning the

00:27:31.799 --> 00:27:34.230
FA on their choice of touring side. Because Arsenal's

00:27:34.230 --> 00:27:36.630
reputation at that point exceeded their ability

00:27:36.630 --> 00:27:39.089
at the time. Because they had been the predominant

00:27:39.089 --> 00:27:42.250
team in the 1930s. By the 1950s, they weren't

00:27:42.250 --> 00:27:45.730
quite as dominant. And perhaps unsurprisingly,

00:27:45.869 --> 00:27:49.009
they ended up losing 5 -0 to a Dinero Moscow

00:27:49.009 --> 00:27:51.950
team. The Foreign Office was disgusted. They

00:27:51.950 --> 00:27:54.450
put out a memo beforehand requesting Arsenal

00:27:54.450 --> 00:27:57.549
not to participate too heavily in the pleasantries

00:27:57.549 --> 00:27:59.950
that hosts put on for them. Essentially, don't

00:27:59.950 --> 00:28:02.930
get drunk on vodka before the match. But even

00:28:02.930 --> 00:28:05.250
then, the English papers were quick to blame

00:28:05.250 --> 00:28:07.130
Arsenal being sluggish from travelling rather

00:28:07.130 --> 00:28:09.750
than worse than their opponents. Basically, Arsenal

00:28:09.750 --> 00:28:12.170
were tired and bad. Their opponents weren't good.

00:28:12.509 --> 00:28:15.970
It repeats itself every time. The two played

00:28:15.970 --> 00:28:19.670
again in England later that year with the result

00:28:19.670 --> 00:28:22.029
a closer one. It was 2 -1 to the Russians then.

00:28:22.170 --> 00:28:23.809
And this time the papers blamed the referee.

00:28:24.349 --> 00:28:26.450
The idea that a foreign team could simply be

00:28:26.450 --> 00:28:28.809
better than the English never crossed their mind,

00:28:28.910 --> 00:28:33.519
obviously. That's an absurd proposition. Absurd.

00:28:33.519 --> 00:28:36.339
Yeah. And now here's the other side of reporting

00:28:36.339 --> 00:28:38.099
because the best team in England at that time

00:28:38.099 --> 00:28:41.799
in 1954 was Wolverhampton Wanderers. They just

00:28:41.799 --> 00:28:43.779
won their first Division 1 title with two more

00:28:43.779 --> 00:28:46.359
to follow later in the decade. They had a remarkable

00:28:46.359 --> 00:28:48.720
run of success in these foreign friendlies beating

00:28:48.720 --> 00:28:51.759
a South African XI wrestling club of Argentina

00:28:51.759 --> 00:28:54.880
and Spartak Moscow and then most notably played

00:28:54.880 --> 00:28:57.859
Honved of Hungary in a televised game. Honved

00:28:57.859 --> 00:28:59.500
had a lot of Hungarian international players

00:28:59.500 --> 00:29:01.140
who were the best team in the world at that time.

00:29:01.549 --> 00:29:03.349
albeit they had just lost the World Cup final

00:29:03.349 --> 00:29:05.589
against West Germany, but were considered unfortunate

00:29:05.589 --> 00:29:08.809
to do so. And they had beaten England 6 -3 at

00:29:08.809 --> 00:29:11.410
Wembley the previous year, which was probably

00:29:11.410 --> 00:29:15.410
the single... Yeah, Ferenc Puskas being the key

00:29:15.410 --> 00:29:17.430
player in it, but many other brilliant players

00:29:17.430 --> 00:29:20.150
too. That was the single probably biggest blow

00:29:20.150 --> 00:29:22.690
to England's feelings of superiority in the history

00:29:22.690 --> 00:29:25.329
of football. So in appalling conditions at Molyneux,

00:29:25.450 --> 00:29:27.890
Wolverhampton Wanderers' home stadium, Wolves

00:29:27.890 --> 00:29:30.500
won 3 -2. And all of a sudden, the English press

00:29:30.500 --> 00:29:33.039
cared about the result of these games, praising

00:29:33.039 --> 00:29:35.640
Wolves as the champions of the world, lauding

00:29:35.640 --> 00:29:38.000
English football as dominant and failing to mention

00:29:38.000 --> 00:29:39.920
the fact that the pitch was a quagmire, which

00:29:39.920 --> 00:29:42.380
suited Wolves' long ball game and not Honved's

00:29:42.380 --> 00:29:45.019
passing game. And there was a couple of dodgy

00:29:45.019 --> 00:29:47.279
penalties given as well in that game, which of

00:29:47.279 --> 00:29:48.960
course is irrelevant when it's the English team

00:29:48.960 --> 00:29:51.980
winning. So headlines went out, Wolves champions

00:29:51.980 --> 00:29:54.559
of the world. These reached France. And in France,

00:29:54.559 --> 00:29:56.319
two French journalists who have been previously

00:29:56.319 --> 00:29:58.859
mentioned saw this. thought it was intolerable

00:29:58.859 --> 00:30:01.519
and it provided the last straw. Hanno wrote,

00:30:01.759 --> 00:30:03.680
Before we declare that Wolverhampton are invincible,

00:30:04.039 --> 00:30:06.579
let them go to Moscow and Budapest. And there

00:30:06.579 --> 00:30:08.420
are other internationally renowned clubs, AC

00:30:08.420 --> 00:30:10.819
Milan and Real Madrid to name but two, a club

00:30:10.819 --> 00:30:12.880
world championship, or at least a European one,

00:30:12.980 --> 00:30:14.980
larger, more meaningful and more prestigious

00:30:14.980 --> 00:30:17.700
than the Mariposa Cup and more original than

00:30:17.700 --> 00:30:20.059
a competition for national teams, should be launched.

00:30:20.539 --> 00:30:22.240
They took the idea to the Congress of the newly

00:30:22.240 --> 00:30:25.819
formed UEFA in March 1955 and approval was given.

00:30:25.980 --> 00:30:28.240
The first tournament, the first ever European

00:30:28.240 --> 00:30:31.799
Cup, was planned for the 1955 -1956 season. So

00:30:31.799 --> 00:30:34.480
there we go. There is the path from English exceptionalism

00:30:34.480 --> 00:30:39.259
to the European Cup starting in 1955 -56. It's

00:30:39.259 --> 00:30:43.140
only taken us about 25 minutes to get here. I

00:30:43.140 --> 00:30:46.019
mean, can I keep the tone low then and keep whinging?

00:30:47.160 --> 00:30:50.940
Do it. I have a bit of an issue with the Champions

00:30:50.940 --> 00:30:54.980
League, less so the European Cup as it once was,

00:30:55.079 --> 00:30:57.359
but the Champions League. But let's compare it

00:30:57.359 --> 00:31:00.140
to the FA Cup. The FA Cup we wax lyrical about

00:31:00.140 --> 00:31:03.059
because of its romance and how it gives everyone

00:31:03.059 --> 00:31:07.400
a route to the top and how you can get there

00:31:07.400 --> 00:31:10.779
if you want to with enough drive, determination,

00:31:11.440 --> 00:31:16.160
resource and talent. There is a trophy that can

00:31:16.160 --> 00:31:18.099
be won by anybody in the footballing system.

00:31:18.680 --> 00:31:23.559
I think the exact opposite is true of European

00:31:23.559 --> 00:31:28.759
football. I think it is designed and manipulated

00:31:28.759 --> 00:31:36.400
to ensure that a handful of clubs retain stranglehold

00:31:36.400 --> 00:31:41.920
over football. I think FIFA is exactly the same

00:31:41.920 --> 00:31:45.200
as well, just to throw that in. As in the world

00:31:45.200 --> 00:31:47.619
competitions, the World Cup, and this World Club

00:31:47.619 --> 00:31:49.900
Cup that's coming up as well. But I digress.

00:31:50.039 --> 00:31:53.039
No, it's true. These things are designed to ensure

00:31:53.039 --> 00:31:58.799
that certain clubs always have a seat at the

00:31:58.799 --> 00:32:03.039
top table and always have a shot at... well,

00:32:03.059 --> 00:32:06.319
not just a shot, like basically have almost a

00:32:06.319 --> 00:32:11.220
monopoly on winning it, subject to a few anomalies.

00:32:11.480 --> 00:32:15.539
Yeah. Not to defend the European Cup, but that

00:32:15.539 --> 00:32:17.619
was true from the beginning as well, which I'll

00:32:17.619 --> 00:32:19.519
come to, but carry on. Well, no, I was going

00:32:19.519 --> 00:32:21.680
to say like the European Cup, like the first

00:32:21.680 --> 00:32:24.279
10 years, the 70s, and you'll probably want to

00:32:24.279 --> 00:32:25.980
talk about some of these, but like that was dominated

00:32:25.980 --> 00:32:29.759
by... um sorry the first 10 years for 55 or whatever

00:32:29.759 --> 00:32:33.039
it was through to 65 and then the first half

00:32:33.039 --> 00:32:35.160
of the 70s are dominated by basically like five

00:32:35.160 --> 00:32:38.259
clubs they like they win all all of the all of

00:32:38.259 --> 00:32:41.440
the tournaments but after that yes yeah and after

00:32:41.440 --> 00:32:43.660
that you have 13 different winners from the from

00:32:43.660 --> 00:32:45.819
the other 21 tournaments before it comes to champions

00:32:45.819 --> 00:32:48.079
league so you're getting like a different winner

00:32:48.079 --> 00:32:50.579
once every other season essentially with the

00:32:50.579 --> 00:32:53.400
with those if you remove those exceptions and

00:32:53.400 --> 00:32:56.900
i guess yeah and some Some not well -known winners

00:32:56.900 --> 00:32:58.579
as well, quite often, like Red Star Belgrade

00:32:58.579 --> 00:33:03.380
winning it. Yes. At a time when Yugoslavia was

00:33:03.380 --> 00:33:05.519
going through, shall we say, quite a lot of troubles,

00:33:05.640 --> 00:33:09.539
which was a good story. But yeah, anyway, carry

00:33:09.539 --> 00:33:12.700
on. No, no. It was in about 1990, I think, 1989

00:33:12.700 --> 00:33:16.480
maybe. 1991? Sometime around there. Yeah. It

00:33:16.480 --> 00:33:21.200
was, I think it was, oh, was it 1991? When did

00:33:21.200 --> 00:33:24.849
Marseille win it? marseille won at 92 93 and

00:33:24.849 --> 00:33:28.230
red star beat marseille two years before that

00:33:28.230 --> 00:33:31.730
so 1990 91 it would have been red star okay 91

00:33:31.730 --> 00:33:34.210
yeah the reason i know that about marseille is

00:33:34.210 --> 00:33:35.509
because i want to talk about marseille later

00:33:35.509 --> 00:33:37.650
and how they're a bunch of wrong ones but um

00:33:37.650 --> 00:33:43.490
please do but like 33 there's been 33 tournaments

00:33:43.490 --> 00:33:45.630
of the champions league this is by comparison

00:33:47.759 --> 00:33:51.140
154 teams have entered the Champions League and

00:33:51.140 --> 00:33:56.140
it's only had 15 winners. That's less than 10

00:33:56.140 --> 00:33:57.960
% of the teams that have entered it have ever

00:33:57.960 --> 00:34:02.599
won it. And that is not an accident. That is

00:34:02.599 --> 00:34:06.299
by design. And one other thing... Go on, sorry.

00:34:06.599 --> 00:34:08.300
I was just going to say, I think you can only

00:34:08.300 --> 00:34:11.420
really point to a couple of them where it was,

00:34:11.599 --> 00:34:15.570
I would say, shock wins, like Porto. Winning

00:34:15.570 --> 00:34:17.710
in 2004 was probably a bit of a shock with Jose

00:34:17.710 --> 00:34:20.710
Mourinho in charge. And then, I don't know. I

00:34:20.710 --> 00:34:22.150
don't think Borussia Dortmund was that much of

00:34:22.150 --> 00:34:24.769
a shock when they won it. Or Marseille for that

00:34:24.769 --> 00:34:26.650
matter, especially given Marseille's circumstances,

00:34:26.949 --> 00:34:29.309
which obviously you'll come to. Other than that,

00:34:29.429 --> 00:34:32.170
it's a laundry list of the biggest and best clubs

00:34:32.170 --> 00:34:37.449
in Europe. Yeah, no. I can tell you who's won

00:34:37.449 --> 00:34:39.710
it. Basically, it's Barcelona, AC Milan, Manchester

00:34:39.710 --> 00:34:43.059
United, Inter Milan. Chelsea, Bayern, Real Madrid,

00:34:43.260 --> 00:34:46.639
Liverpool, Man City, Borussia Dortmund, Ajax,

00:34:46.760 --> 00:34:51.099
Juve and Porto and Marseille. Oh, Ajax maybe.

00:34:51.320 --> 00:34:54.619
That was probably a good one. Ajax was a very

00:34:54.619 --> 00:34:58.900
young team. They won it in the mid -90s. The

00:34:58.900 --> 00:35:01.699
thing that really starts to stink though is that

00:35:01.699 --> 00:35:08.340
since the emergence of the oligarch era, You

00:35:08.340 --> 00:35:12.739
basically have to either be state -funded, the

00:35:12.739 --> 00:35:16.780
richest team in your league, and therefore by

00:35:16.780 --> 00:35:24.079
default Europe, or lucky enough to essentially

00:35:24.079 --> 00:35:28.719
have... like one of the greatest managers or

00:35:28.719 --> 00:35:30.940
best players in like the world's ever seen in

00:35:30.940 --> 00:35:33.460
order to in order to win it because since since

00:35:33.460 --> 00:35:36.179
2000 i've taken an arbitrary date of like 2005

00:35:36.179 --> 00:35:38.739
because chelsea were brought out in 2003 i think

00:35:38.739 --> 00:35:42.480
then since then barcelona have won four and they

00:35:42.480 --> 00:35:44.739
had the greatest player the world's ever seen

00:35:44.739 --> 00:35:49.380
and the greatest manager um the world's ever

00:35:49.380 --> 00:35:51.019
seen for three of those several of the greatest

00:35:51.019 --> 00:35:52.820
players the world's ever seen actually yeah well

00:35:52.820 --> 00:35:57.039
they had one in particular Yeah, so... Xavi and

00:35:57.039 --> 00:35:59.960
Iniesta as well. AC Milan won one in that period,

00:36:00.019 --> 00:36:04.519
but in the late 2000s, I say late 2000s, mid

00:36:04.519 --> 00:36:08.619
to late 2000s, but that AC Milan team was one

00:36:08.619 --> 00:36:12.079
of the great footballing teams of Europe and

00:36:12.079 --> 00:36:15.500
they haven't won one since that club. So read

00:36:15.500 --> 00:36:17.940
into that what you will. Manchester United have

00:36:17.940 --> 00:36:20.519
won one and they had a generational manager and

00:36:20.519 --> 00:36:22.260
were the richest club in the world at the time.

00:36:23.920 --> 00:36:27.000
Or... Yeah, off the back of that wealth, at least.

00:36:27.239 --> 00:36:29.699
Into 1 -1, and they have Mourinho. He's one of

00:36:29.699 --> 00:36:32.119
the greatest managers of all time. Chelsea have

00:36:32.119 --> 00:36:34.099
won two, and they're an oligarch -backed state.

00:36:34.559 --> 00:36:36.900
Bayern have won two, richest club in Germany.

00:36:37.440 --> 00:36:39.239
Real Madrid have won six. They're just state

00:36:39.239 --> 00:36:41.719
-funded. Like, let's get that right. Same with

00:36:41.719 --> 00:36:45.280
Barcelona, like, for different reasons. But it

00:36:45.280 --> 00:36:47.079
is true. Like, let's just call it what it is.

00:36:47.159 --> 00:36:52.239
Like, they're very rich. Nothing's changed. Real

00:36:52.239 --> 00:36:56.860
Madrid won the first five in 1956 on to 1960.

00:36:57.380 --> 00:37:00.099
And there's a lot of links between them and the

00:37:00.099 --> 00:37:02.960
Franco regime at the time. It's obviously a dictator

00:37:02.960 --> 00:37:07.159
in Spain at the time. A lot of preferential treatment

00:37:07.159 --> 00:37:10.280
being given arguably to Real Madrid over Barcelona,

00:37:10.360 --> 00:37:13.019
for example, or Athletic Bilbao, who are these

00:37:13.019 --> 00:37:15.340
regional clubs that were calling for more autonomy

00:37:15.340 --> 00:37:17.860
for their regions. And obviously, therefore,

00:37:18.019 --> 00:37:21.739
very much disliked by the Castilian -supporting

00:37:21.739 --> 00:37:25.739
Franco regime, of which Real Madrid were their

00:37:25.739 --> 00:37:30.940
biggest, most worldwide brand, essentially. And

00:37:30.940 --> 00:37:33.579
stuff like Alfredo Di Stefano, when he was moving

00:37:33.579 --> 00:37:35.780
from, I think he was playing in Colombia, but

00:37:35.780 --> 00:37:37.219
he's an Argentinian player, moving to Europe

00:37:37.219 --> 00:37:40.159
for the first time. Real Madrid and Barcelona

00:37:40.159 --> 00:37:43.179
both had separate agreements to sign him. And

00:37:43.179 --> 00:37:45.440
they went to FIFA and they arbitrated basically

00:37:45.440 --> 00:37:48.139
a sharing system where you'd play for one year

00:37:48.139 --> 00:37:50.860
for one team, one year for the next team, until

00:37:50.860 --> 00:37:52.880
they could resolve it between themselves. And

00:37:52.880 --> 00:37:54.960
apparently the Franco regime put so much pressure

00:37:54.960 --> 00:37:56.880
on Barcelona, they just were like, this isn't

00:37:56.880 --> 00:37:59.019
worth it, sold up their share. And he went to

00:37:59.019 --> 00:38:02.159
Real Madrid. And between him and Ferenc Puskas

00:38:02.159 --> 00:38:03.840
as well, ending up at Real Madrid, they were

00:38:03.840 --> 00:38:06.809
the best team in Europe by a mile. At that point,

00:38:06.829 --> 00:38:08.969
won the first five European Cups. So nothing

00:38:08.969 --> 00:38:11.889
changes, really. This is it, right? This is exactly

00:38:11.889 --> 00:38:17.570
the point. The politics of some of these clubs

00:38:17.570 --> 00:38:20.210
is obviously more complex than me simply saying

00:38:20.210 --> 00:38:22.230
that they're owned by a billionaire. But nonetheless,

00:38:22.409 --> 00:38:24.730
they have an enormous advantage over their competitors.

00:38:24.889 --> 00:38:26.889
And that's the point that I'm trying to articulate.

00:38:27.250 --> 00:38:30.010
And then to finish off this list, you've got

00:38:30.010 --> 00:38:33.110
Man City, Oligarch. And then, well, not oligarch,

00:38:33.190 --> 00:38:37.289
but state oil. And then the only team, to be

00:38:37.289 --> 00:38:40.710
fair, that bucks the trend is Liverpool, built

00:38:40.710 --> 00:38:43.349
off a longstanding history, but you still needed

00:38:43.349 --> 00:38:48.230
a buyout to get there. Yeah. I think that was

00:38:48.230 --> 00:38:50.429
a question less of wealth and more of competence

00:38:50.429 --> 00:38:54.349
in our owners, but nevertheless. I agree completely.

00:38:54.349 --> 00:38:56.860
It's not like Liverpool are a poor team. No,

00:38:56.860 --> 00:38:57.920
Liverpool are not. One of the richest clubs in

00:38:57.920 --> 00:39:01.699
the world. No, right. That's the only asterisk

00:39:01.699 --> 00:39:04.420
that I'm bringing to that table. I think Liverpool

00:39:04.420 --> 00:39:08.440
are there on merit. Still won the 2019 Champions

00:39:08.440 --> 00:39:11.159
League with a £75 million centre -back and a

00:39:11.159 --> 00:39:16.139
£63 million goalkeeper, etc. I'm not saying Liverpool

00:39:16.139 --> 00:39:18.619
didn't spend a lot of money to get there. No,

00:39:18.619 --> 00:39:21.800
and nor am I trying to diminish the achievement.

00:39:22.059 --> 00:39:24.869
I'm just saying that... In order to get to this

00:39:24.869 --> 00:39:28.469
top table, you need to have an excellent manager,

00:39:28.510 --> 00:39:31.949
which you had, and a very, very strong playing

00:39:31.949 --> 00:39:34.809
squad that can normally only be built by very

00:39:34.809 --> 00:39:37.550
heavy expenditure. And then if you want to, like,

00:39:37.570 --> 00:39:40.210
so this year you've got Inter versus PSG. I want

00:39:40.210 --> 00:39:42.710
Inter to win for all of these reasons. Me too.

00:39:42.849 --> 00:39:44.929
Because if PSG win it, it's just another oligarch

00:39:44.929 --> 00:39:50.679
state, like, run. sorry, a funded side that are

00:39:50.679 --> 00:39:53.900
going to go and, everyone's going to claim this

00:39:53.900 --> 00:39:56.059
romantic story because they've never won it before.

00:39:56.320 --> 00:39:59.440
They've spent as much as Arsenal spent under

00:39:59.440 --> 00:40:05.389
Arteta in two and a half years. and and like

00:40:05.389 --> 00:40:08.010
that like so arsenal like people taking the piss

00:40:08.010 --> 00:40:09.690
obviously and i get it like don't get me wrong

00:40:09.690 --> 00:40:11.869
like it's you know part of the the discourse

00:40:11.869 --> 00:40:13.769
and it's just normally fun and games and things

00:40:13.769 --> 00:40:15.789
but people just like suggesting that arsenal

00:40:15.789 --> 00:40:18.070
spent so like crazy amounts of money and like

00:40:18.070 --> 00:40:19.969
look at the lack of success or what have you

00:40:19.969 --> 00:40:23.130
like arteta's going into his seventh season is

00:40:23.130 --> 00:40:25.750
it or his sixth season i can't remember off the

00:40:25.750 --> 00:40:28.230
top of my head something like that yeah and he's

00:40:28.230 --> 00:40:30.849
you know he's spent x amount uh i think it's

00:40:30.849 --> 00:40:35.110
like 650 mil maybe 700 mil which obviously is

00:40:35.110 --> 00:40:37.449
a heap of money, don't get me wrong, but it averages

00:40:37.449 --> 00:40:40.869
at like 100 million a year. PSG have spent that

00:40:40.869 --> 00:40:44.170
in two and a half years and in doing so, we're

00:40:44.170 --> 00:40:48.809
replacing Messi, Neymar and Mbappe. It's not

00:40:48.809 --> 00:40:54.150
a fair playing field. It's this fairytale they've

00:40:54.150 --> 00:40:55.949
reached their first Champions League final having

00:40:55.949 --> 00:40:58.809
failed to do so, having spent hundreds and hundreds

00:40:58.809 --> 00:41:04.630
of million on Neymar, Messi, Mbappe. Like, it

00:41:04.630 --> 00:41:08.309
was only a matter of time. Even all these youngsters

00:41:08.309 --> 00:41:10.449
that they've got, like Due and people like that

00:41:10.449 --> 00:41:12.550
that they brought in, they spent like 40, 50

00:41:12.550 --> 00:41:17.650
million pounds on each one. Like, they are not

00:41:17.650 --> 00:41:22.889
a romance story. Like, it's symptomatic of the

00:41:22.889 --> 00:41:26.469
problem with this tournament now. The problem

00:41:26.469 --> 00:41:30.329
with it is, while a lot of teams have money,

00:41:30.469 --> 00:41:32.829
more so than... I think women's football is a

00:41:32.829 --> 00:41:35.530
good comparison. Because there's a smaller pool

00:41:35.530 --> 00:41:37.389
of players, there ends up to be less dominant

00:41:37.389 --> 00:41:39.130
teams, so you end up with Barcelona and Chelsea

00:41:39.130 --> 00:41:42.449
and Lyon really dominating. Whereas, at least

00:41:42.449 --> 00:41:45.130
the good thing about men's football is that pool

00:41:45.130 --> 00:41:47.389
of players is spread more thinly and there are

00:41:47.389 --> 00:41:49.170
more rich clubs, so you end up with this almost...

00:41:50.619 --> 00:41:52.300
a bit of balance by the fact that they're all

00:41:52.300 --> 00:41:54.599
rich, but that just excludes anyone from below

00:41:54.599 --> 00:41:56.480
it from realistically having a chance of winning

00:41:56.480 --> 00:41:58.820
it. There's not really any chance of anyone from

00:41:58.820 --> 00:42:04.460
Scotland or Belgium or even the Netherlands nowadays

00:42:04.460 --> 00:42:06.860
having a chance of winning it. Although Ajax

00:42:06.860 --> 00:42:09.219
did get very deep in the competition in 2019.

00:42:09.960 --> 00:42:13.500
The Spurs to somehow beat them. The only one

00:42:13.500 --> 00:42:17.920
-time winners of the Champions League, I'm including

00:42:17.920 --> 00:42:21.239
sort of The European Cups as people having already

00:42:21.239 --> 00:42:23.119
won one. Otherwise, you'd include Ajax in this

00:42:23.119 --> 00:42:25.159
list for that reason. But the only one -time

00:42:25.159 --> 00:42:27.139
winners of the Champions League. So the people

00:42:27.139 --> 00:42:30.699
that have won their first trophy, Porto won the

00:42:30.699 --> 00:42:33.099
European Cup as well. So they've won two. Oh,

00:42:33.119 --> 00:42:35.940
did they? Yeah, they won it in the 80s or something.

00:42:37.579 --> 00:42:41.480
But this is the point. The only one -time winners

00:42:41.480 --> 00:42:42.619
of the Champions League. The only people who

00:42:42.619 --> 00:42:45.190
have made their debut victory. in the European

00:42:45.190 --> 00:42:46.969
Cup or Champions League, since the Champions

00:42:46.969 --> 00:42:48.889
League came into fruition, are Marseille, who

00:42:48.889 --> 00:42:51.849
we'll talk about, Chelsea, and Manchester City.

00:42:52.949 --> 00:42:55.710
So, like... Yes. So, when people sit there taking

00:42:55.710 --> 00:42:58.469
the piss out of sides for, like, not having won

00:42:58.469 --> 00:43:01.230
this stuff, they're just... It's willful blindness

00:43:01.230 --> 00:43:05.429
to the problem. Willful blindness. Like, you're

00:43:05.429 --> 00:43:08.570
only... The irony is you're not serving your

00:43:08.570 --> 00:43:10.869
own interests by taking the piss by doing that.

00:43:11.269 --> 00:43:13.989
Like... if people really want their club to have

00:43:13.989 --> 00:43:15.949
a shot at like the top table and they really

00:43:15.949 --> 00:43:18.670
want to experience some of the glory days then

00:43:18.670 --> 00:43:20.869
they should really take a look at what the actual

00:43:20.869 --> 00:43:23.070
fundamental problem is which is it's a completely

00:43:23.070 --> 00:43:25.230
inaccessible tournament now there's lots of good

00:43:25.230 --> 00:43:26.730
things about it and we'll talk about some of

00:43:26.730 --> 00:43:30.789
those soon but like again like just sorry i know

00:43:30.789 --> 00:43:34.730
i'm off on one here but basically in the premier

00:43:34.730 --> 00:43:39.110
league era the only um premier league champions

00:43:39.110 --> 00:43:41.949
that haven't won the Champions League, Arsenal,

00:43:42.110 --> 00:43:45.010
Blackburn and Leicester, right? No other club

00:43:45.010 --> 00:43:47.590
has qualified without winning. No other club

00:43:47.590 --> 00:43:49.869
who's qualified for the Champions League from

00:43:49.869 --> 00:43:54.289
England has ever won it. So like basically anyone

00:43:54.289 --> 00:43:56.889
coming in those positions, second, third, fourth

00:43:56.889 --> 00:43:59.309
and now fifth this year, who haven't won the

00:43:59.309 --> 00:44:01.469
Premier League at some point have ever won the

00:44:01.469 --> 00:44:03.070
Champions League. So getting into it's a waste

00:44:03.070 --> 00:44:04.750
of time. You're doing it for financial reasons

00:44:04.750 --> 00:44:08.590
only. So therefore, if you remove the Oligarchs,

00:44:08.590 --> 00:44:10.429
it's only Liverpool and Man United that have

00:44:10.429 --> 00:44:12.449
ever actually won it. Because Chelsea and City

00:44:12.449 --> 00:44:15.849
are the other two. And those two clubs have obviously

00:44:15.849 --> 00:44:18.230
got a very long -standing, rich footballing history

00:44:18.230 --> 00:44:21.030
in England and in Europe. And so that makes sense.

00:44:21.389 --> 00:44:23.809
Spurs, Villa, Leeds and Newcastle are the other

00:44:23.809 --> 00:44:26.769
sides to qualify. And out of the ones that I've

00:44:26.769 --> 00:44:28.610
mentioned, so that's Arsenal, Blackburn, Leicester,

00:44:28.650 --> 00:44:31.389
Spurs, Villa, Leeds, Newcastle, five of them

00:44:31.389 --> 00:44:36.130
have been relegated in England after. after qualifying

00:44:36.130 --> 00:44:38.909
for this tournament because it fucking cripples

00:44:38.909 --> 00:44:42.150
you. Two of them. Two of them ended up in League

00:44:42.150 --> 00:44:44.550
One as well. I think Leicester did as well, didn't

00:44:44.550 --> 00:44:47.170
they? Yeah, yeah. I'm not wrong in saying. To

00:44:47.170 --> 00:44:49.929
be fair, not after they won the league. That

00:44:49.929 --> 00:44:51.989
was before they won the league. So ignore that

00:44:51.989 --> 00:44:54.889
comment. But Leeds ended up right in the doldrums

00:44:54.889 --> 00:44:57.789
in the third tier of English football and have

00:44:57.789 --> 00:44:59.510
built themselves back up a bit and will be in

00:44:59.510 --> 00:45:02.000
the Premier League again next season. Yay for

00:45:02.000 --> 00:45:03.860
Leeds. And if you think I'm being partisan about

00:45:03.860 --> 00:45:05.300
this because I'm an Arsenal fan and it serves

00:45:05.300 --> 00:45:06.980
my interest to say other stuff and because I'm

00:45:06.980 --> 00:45:08.719
just trying to endorse what Wenger said and this

00:45:08.719 --> 00:45:10.480
and the other about like qualifying for the Champions

00:45:10.480 --> 00:45:12.940
League being impressive. I think it's absolutely

00:45:12.940 --> 00:45:16.400
astonishing that Arsenal and Spurs have been

00:45:16.400 --> 00:45:19.000
in this tournament multiple times repeatedly

00:45:19.000 --> 00:45:23.139
having not won it and not having had the resources

00:45:23.139 --> 00:45:25.380
of some of their competitors. Like I think it's

00:45:25.380 --> 00:45:27.440
to their credit. I don't think it's anything

00:45:27.440 --> 00:45:29.539
worthy of mockery. I think it's a thing that,

00:45:29.559 --> 00:45:31.679
yeah, sure, from a pure sporting perspective,

00:45:31.719 --> 00:45:33.380
it's disappointing when you can't go over the

00:45:33.380 --> 00:45:35.480
line and you're always looking like, how can

00:45:35.480 --> 00:45:37.679
you take the next step? But both of those clubs

00:45:37.679 --> 00:45:41.500
in the last 10 years and longer for Arsenal have

00:45:41.500 --> 00:45:44.360
been in and out of the Champions League, being

00:45:44.360 --> 00:45:45.960
competitive in the Champions League, both made

00:45:45.960 --> 00:45:48.219
finals in the Champions League, haven't quite

00:45:48.219 --> 00:45:51.639
got over the line. But look what you're up against.

00:45:52.099 --> 00:45:55.909
Why is it a surprise? I know. So, I mean, just

00:45:55.909 --> 00:45:58.190
to provide some balance here, I'm a Liverpool

00:45:58.190 --> 00:46:01.170
fan. There's no competition. I mean, obviously,

00:46:01.309 --> 00:46:03.750
the Premier League, First Division, Liverpool

00:46:03.750 --> 00:46:04.989
have a proud history of winning, but there's

00:46:04.989 --> 00:46:06.710
no competition that Liverpool fans pride themselves

00:46:06.710 --> 00:46:08.829
more on than the European Cup slash Champions

00:46:08.829 --> 00:46:11.070
League. Won it six times, more than any other

00:46:11.070 --> 00:46:13.050
English time, something like fourth on the all

00:46:13.050 --> 00:46:17.210
-time list of winners overall. And I agree with

00:46:17.210 --> 00:46:20.050
every word you're saying. I think it's a wholly

00:46:20.050 --> 00:46:23.250
inaccessible competition. realistically there's

00:46:23.250 --> 00:46:25.230
only about 10 clubs any season who win it I would

00:46:25.230 --> 00:46:31.420
love to see a team from smaller nation. Porto

00:46:31.420 --> 00:46:33.659
winning it from Portugal was fantastic. That's

00:46:33.659 --> 00:46:35.860
about the level. Portugal's not a small league.

00:46:35.940 --> 00:46:38.420
Portugal's probably about the 7th or 8th biggest

00:46:38.420 --> 00:46:40.280
league in Europe, if not higher than that. And

00:46:40.280 --> 00:46:42.519
they still needed Mourinho. With three really

00:46:42.519 --> 00:46:44.440
good clubs. And they needed Mourinho to do it,

00:46:44.460 --> 00:46:47.900
exactly. And a relatively fortuitous final in

00:46:47.900 --> 00:46:49.500
the Monaco with their opponents in the final.

00:46:49.719 --> 00:46:51.719
Again, a good team with loads of good players

00:46:51.719 --> 00:46:54.219
at that point, but not quite the same as playing

00:46:54.219 --> 00:46:59.059
Barcelona at that point. Chelsea or Arsenal at

00:46:59.059 --> 00:47:00.679
that point who were very strong teams. That's

00:47:00.679 --> 00:47:03.119
the one that got away for us I think in all seriousness

00:47:03.119 --> 00:47:07.000
because we went out to Chelsea, Wayne Bridge

00:47:07.000 --> 00:47:10.420
and then Chelsea got dumped by Monaco and that

00:47:10.420 --> 00:47:12.420
was the season that the Arsenal went invincible

00:47:12.420 --> 00:47:15.519
so we were good at that point and we should have

00:47:15.519 --> 00:47:18.969
probably won that one but yeah. It's absolutely

00:47:18.969 --> 00:47:22.150
insane. I was just looking at the stats and it

00:47:22.150 --> 00:47:24.289
just started to enrage me more than I thought

00:47:24.289 --> 00:47:26.269
it would because I already knew I had my suspicions

00:47:26.269 --> 00:47:28.710
about this tournament. But I didn't think that

00:47:28.710 --> 00:47:33.949
they would be so emphatically proven to be right

00:47:33.949 --> 00:47:38.389
if you just look at the stats. It's no way a

00:47:38.389 --> 00:47:41.750
criticism of these leagues when I say teams from

00:47:41.750 --> 00:47:47.619
the Romanian league won it in 1986. As we mentioned,

00:47:47.739 --> 00:47:50.079
Red Star Belgrade won it in 1991 from Yugoslavia.

00:47:50.659 --> 00:47:54.239
Dutch teams won it, PSV Eindhoven in 1988, as

00:47:54.239 --> 00:47:56.239
well as Ajax three times in a row in the early

00:47:56.239 --> 00:47:59.039
70s, as well as Feyenoord, who won it in 1970

00:47:59.039 --> 00:48:04.059
as well, and Celtic winning in 1967. Not a criticism

00:48:04.059 --> 00:48:05.760
to these leagues, they have a lot of history

00:48:05.760 --> 00:48:07.440
and a lot of good teams, but realistically, can

00:48:07.440 --> 00:48:10.579
you see a team from maybe the Netherlands, but

00:48:10.579 --> 00:48:12.380
you're not going to see a team from any of the

00:48:12.380 --> 00:48:15.099
old Yugoslavian... any of those countries winning

00:48:15.099 --> 00:48:16.599
it and you're not going to see a team from Scotland

00:48:16.599 --> 00:48:20.900
winning it anytime soon it's just closed ranks

00:48:20.900 --> 00:48:23.619
as a competition because of where the money is

00:48:23.619 --> 00:48:28.940
and it's it just compared to the FA Cup it doesn't

00:48:28.940 --> 00:48:30.940
have that level of romance what's the equivalent

00:48:30.940 --> 00:48:33.300
of a Crystal Palace winning it in Europe that

00:48:33.300 --> 00:48:35.920
would probably be an Ajax winning it hasn't happened

00:48:35.920 --> 00:48:39.300
for 30 years and I only really got close once.

00:48:39.500 --> 00:48:41.659
And this leads on to the point that you were

00:48:41.659 --> 00:48:43.559
making, mate, earlier when me and you were just

00:48:43.559 --> 00:48:45.500
chewing the fat generally like we do outside

00:48:45.500 --> 00:48:48.840
of these podcasts. When you were talking about

00:48:48.840 --> 00:48:50.780
how the impact of the expansion of this tournament

00:48:50.780 --> 00:48:53.420
and how it's only served to fuck people over

00:48:53.420 --> 00:48:56.159
even more. It hasn't made the situation better.

00:48:58.260 --> 00:49:02.219
Say that to a Spurs fan, to be fair. Well, you

00:49:02.219 --> 00:49:04.219
explain why, because I think it's a very good

00:49:04.219 --> 00:49:07.869
point. And again, there's been a lot of criticism

00:49:07.869 --> 00:49:09.949
about, obviously, Spurs and Manchester United,

00:49:10.070 --> 00:49:11.329
their position in the English League. They are

00:49:11.329 --> 00:49:13.929
16th and 17th in the English League, bearing

00:49:13.929 --> 00:49:16.889
in mind that 18th, 19th and 20th get relegated.

00:49:17.030 --> 00:49:19.789
It just so happens that the three teams who got

00:49:19.789 --> 00:49:22.010
relegated this season have had very bad seasons.

00:49:22.030 --> 00:49:24.190
So there's not really been any risk of Spurs

00:49:24.190 --> 00:49:25.949
or Man Utd getting relegated. But nevertheless,

00:49:26.210 --> 00:49:28.349
they ended up as the Europa League final and

00:49:28.349 --> 00:49:31.730
got a lot of probably fair criticism for the

00:49:31.730 --> 00:49:35.250
competition and for... themselves in doing so

00:49:35.250 --> 00:49:37.889
the problem I have with the Champions League

00:49:37.889 --> 00:49:40.610
continue being expanded it's 36 teams currently

00:49:40.610 --> 00:49:42.989
it's in a format where it'd be very easy for

00:49:42.989 --> 00:49:44.730
them to expand it further and I thoroughly expect

00:49:44.730 --> 00:49:47.570
them to do so it just keeps watering down the

00:49:47.570 --> 00:49:50.630
quality of the Europa League for a start making

00:49:50.630 --> 00:49:52.429
the Champions League this top tier competition

00:49:52.429 --> 00:49:54.769
obviously you've got a bit of control over who

00:49:54.769 --> 00:49:57.130
plays who and you end up with these high profile

00:49:57.130 --> 00:50:00.349
games where you've got these top teams PSG play

00:50:00.349 --> 00:50:03.010
Man City or whatever else in the big group stage

00:50:03.010 --> 00:50:06.530
and there's always a game for UEFA to put on

00:50:06.530 --> 00:50:11.590
and sell stuff but it makes the Europa League

00:50:11.590 --> 00:50:13.030
a worse competition makes the Europa Conference

00:50:13.030 --> 00:50:16.190
League an even worse competition still with Chelsea

00:50:16.190 --> 00:50:19.010
facing very little competition to reach the final

00:50:19.010 --> 00:50:21.730
of that realistically speaking you've lost you've

00:50:21.730 --> 00:50:24.719
lost four four teams that would have been in

00:50:24.719 --> 00:50:26.519
the Europa League now in the Champions League

00:50:26.519 --> 00:50:28.239
for no reason. And they're not just small teams

00:50:28.239 --> 00:50:30.239
because you've expanded the qualifications of

00:50:30.239 --> 00:50:32.860
the big nations. So you've lost four big teams,

00:50:32.940 --> 00:50:35.400
arguably, from going into the Europa League.

00:50:35.460 --> 00:50:38.199
You also don't have the third place teams from

00:50:38.199 --> 00:50:39.800
the group stage in the Champions League dropping

00:50:39.800 --> 00:50:41.880
into the Europa League anymore. So you lose another

00:50:41.880 --> 00:50:44.840
eight teams. So you've lost 12 good teams from

00:50:44.840 --> 00:50:47.940
the Europa League. And people are like, oh, isn't

00:50:47.940 --> 00:50:53.210
it amazing? No, it's not amazing. No. I understand

00:50:53.210 --> 00:50:55.989
how much of an old man this makes me sound like

00:50:55.989 --> 00:50:58.690
when I say this, but I'm at the point now I believe

00:50:58.690 --> 00:51:00.170
the Champions League should be for champions.

00:51:00.190 --> 00:51:01.690
I think it would make it a better competition

00:51:01.690 --> 00:51:03.329
and it would make the Europa League a better

00:51:03.329 --> 00:51:05.389
competition. You should have a Champions League

00:51:05.389 --> 00:51:07.730
much smaller. I would say 12 teams, two groups

00:51:07.730 --> 00:51:10.380
of six, something like that. made up purely of

00:51:10.380 --> 00:51:12.239
people who've won something so i've got no problem

00:51:12.239 --> 00:51:13.599
with the europa league winners getting in it

00:51:13.599 --> 00:51:15.500
in that context obviously the previous year's

00:51:15.500 --> 00:51:17.300
champions league winners getting in it and then

00:51:17.300 --> 00:51:18.940
the rest just being champions of their countries

00:51:18.940 --> 00:51:21.519
with some of the lower ranked nations having

00:51:21.519 --> 00:51:23.500
to qualify for it and if they fail to qualify

00:51:23.500 --> 00:51:25.340
for it they then drop out into the europa league

00:51:25.340 --> 00:51:27.320
further further strengthening the europa league

00:51:27.320 --> 00:51:30.099
i'd also make it so if you come fourth in you

00:51:30.429 --> 00:51:32.329
two groups of six or something like that, you'd

00:51:32.329 --> 00:51:34.670
still drop then out into the Europa League. Further

00:51:34.670 --> 00:51:36.150
strengthening the Europa League and making it

00:51:36.150 --> 00:51:38.230
a real achievement to win that and worthy of

00:51:38.230 --> 00:51:39.969
its spot in the Champions League. You end up

00:51:39.969 --> 00:51:42.769
with a great concentration of teams still. Exactly.

00:51:42.909 --> 00:51:45.469
Next season it would be Liverpool in it, it would

00:51:45.469 --> 00:51:48.289
be Napoli in it, it would be Bayern Munich in

00:51:48.289 --> 00:51:50.010
it, it would be PSG in it, it would be Barcelona

00:51:50.010 --> 00:51:52.690
in it, it would be maybe Inter in it if they

00:51:52.690 --> 00:51:55.389
win the Champions League. Spurs in it, just to

00:51:55.389 --> 00:52:00.119
undermine my point. No, but there's a serious

00:52:00.119 --> 00:52:01.800
point to that, which is firstly Spurs wouldn't

00:52:01.800 --> 00:52:03.900
be in it if the system that you're saying it

00:52:03.900 --> 00:52:05.039
would be in place because they wouldn't have

00:52:05.039 --> 00:52:09.539
won the Europa League. But without being sour

00:52:09.539 --> 00:52:13.860
about that, even if they had, they would be there

00:52:13.860 --> 00:52:15.639
on merit because they would have won a very hard

00:52:15.639 --> 00:52:19.099
tournament. Absolute merit. It used to be, mate.

00:52:19.260 --> 00:52:22.570
It used to be. And I know you know this. There

00:52:22.570 --> 00:52:24.269
used to be three European tournaments. People

00:52:24.269 --> 00:52:25.789
make out like the Conference League is like some

00:52:25.789 --> 00:52:27.449
novel idea. There used to be the Cup Winners'

00:52:27.449 --> 00:52:29.750
Cup, the UEFA Cup and the Champions League or

00:52:29.750 --> 00:52:32.110
the European Cup. Cup Winners' Cup, you had to

00:52:32.110 --> 00:52:33.769
win your domestic cup to get in it. So everyone

00:52:33.769 --> 00:52:36.269
who was in it had won something. The UEFA Cup

00:52:36.269 --> 00:52:38.809
was exactly like... For the most part. For the

00:52:38.809 --> 00:52:40.269
most part, sure. Unless they won the double.

00:52:40.650 --> 00:52:42.610
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry, yeah. When the

00:52:42.610 --> 00:52:44.409
runners -up were getting it. But still, I mean,

00:52:44.429 --> 00:52:45.630
you still got to the final. You still got to

00:52:45.630 --> 00:52:47.469
the final of a tournament, exactly. And then

00:52:47.469 --> 00:52:50.349
your point about the UEFA Cup was true. The UEFA

00:52:50.349 --> 00:52:55.289
Cup was really fucking hard to win. Yeah. Arguably

00:52:55.289 --> 00:52:57.030
harder than the Champions League because you'd

00:52:57.030 --> 00:53:00.530
have two or three teams from England, from Spain,

00:53:00.650 --> 00:53:03.530
from Italy in it. And in the Champions League,

00:53:03.590 --> 00:53:05.849
the European Cup would just have one team, just

00:53:05.849 --> 00:53:07.570
the champions. And then the Champions League

00:53:07.570 --> 00:53:09.590
or the European Cup would have been exactly as

00:53:09.590 --> 00:53:11.530
you say it is, which is it's really hard to qualify

00:53:11.530 --> 00:53:13.250
for because you have to win your domestic trophy.

00:53:13.389 --> 00:53:14.869
But if you do win your domestic trophy, then

00:53:14.869 --> 00:53:16.369
you get a shot at being considered the best.

00:53:16.929 --> 00:53:20.090
Yeah, and it's this other argument that how many

00:53:20.090 --> 00:53:22.309
of the teams have won it in the past 30 -odd

00:53:22.309 --> 00:53:24.349
years since it became the Champions League have

00:53:24.349 --> 00:53:26.530
actually won their league the year before. Chelsea

00:53:26.530 --> 00:53:29.610
did it in 2020, Liverpool did it in 2019, 2021,

00:53:29.769 --> 00:53:32.909
sorry, for Chelsea. Well, Chelsea didn't win

00:53:32.909 --> 00:53:34.269
the Premier League in 2020. Liverpool didn't

00:53:34.269 --> 00:53:37.170
win the Premier League in 2018. I'm sure there's

00:53:37.170 --> 00:53:39.329
plenty of other teams in that list that were

00:53:39.329 --> 00:53:41.469
the same. Real Madrid, one, two, three, four,

00:53:42.170 --> 00:53:47.010
five times they've done it. AC Milan twice. Liverpool

00:53:47.010 --> 00:53:50.170
twice. Barcelona twice. Chelsea, both of theirs.

00:53:50.469 --> 00:53:54.719
Bayern Munich once. But look at the names of

00:53:54.719 --> 00:53:57.019
those clubs. That's my point about being exclusivity.

00:53:58.099 --> 00:54:00.860
There's nobody that's qualified. Like, Brest

00:54:00.860 --> 00:54:02.980
didn't win it this year, did they? For fuck's

00:54:02.980 --> 00:54:08.239
sake. The level of bad season that Real Madrid

00:54:08.239 --> 00:54:10.559
would have to have to not qualify for the Champions

00:54:10.559 --> 00:54:14.559
League is just almost... I mean, almost... The

00:54:14.559 --> 00:54:16.300
worst season Real Madrid could realistically

00:54:16.300 --> 00:54:18.320
have with the relative strength of them compared

00:54:18.320 --> 00:54:20.840
to other teams in Spain is coming third. Maybe

00:54:20.840 --> 00:54:23.940
coming fourth if someone like... Athletic Bilbao

00:54:23.940 --> 00:54:26.519
had a cracking season. It's just not going to

00:54:26.519 --> 00:54:27.900
happen. They'll still qualify for the Champions

00:54:27.900 --> 00:54:29.360
League, which always gives them a chance of winning

00:54:29.360 --> 00:54:31.699
it because they can focus their resources towards

00:54:31.699 --> 00:54:34.019
it. And they've obviously got plenty of resources.

00:54:35.159 --> 00:54:40.400
I just find it really disappointing. I just think

00:54:40.400 --> 00:54:46.019
that if you really want to dream big and you

00:54:46.019 --> 00:54:49.900
want your side to have... chance like you know

00:54:49.900 --> 00:54:52.199
winning the major trophies and getting in the

00:54:52.199 --> 00:54:55.679
mix then like then then start getting on board

00:54:55.679 --> 00:54:59.039
with the argument like put aside your own concerns

00:54:59.039 --> 00:55:01.639
that your rivals might go and win this tournament

00:55:01.639 --> 00:55:04.480
if it is to be like loosened and start focusing

00:55:04.480 --> 00:55:06.639
on the fact that the only way your side is going

00:55:06.639 --> 00:55:10.619
to win it is if that happens as well like stop

00:55:10.619 --> 00:55:13.940
being so self -serving about it like All football

00:55:13.940 --> 00:55:17.000
fans seem to feel so much more comfortable taking

00:55:17.000 --> 00:55:18.699
the piss out of their rivals for not having won

00:55:18.699 --> 00:55:21.179
something than they are concerned with when their

00:55:21.179 --> 00:55:23.760
team's going to go and win something next. The

00:55:23.760 --> 00:55:27.539
same argument applies to refereeing decisions

00:55:27.539 --> 00:55:30.599
as well. We talk about this all the time. The

00:55:30.599 --> 00:55:32.320
Premier League referees aren't going to get any

00:55:32.320 --> 00:55:37.059
better whilst fans are more than happy for a

00:55:37.059 --> 00:55:40.519
bad decision to go against their rival or a team

00:55:40.519 --> 00:55:45.690
that aren't them. overrides the you know actual

00:55:45.690 --> 00:55:47.590
benefits it would have to the league as a whole

00:55:47.590 --> 00:55:50.929
or to your team in question football fans were

00:55:50.929 --> 00:55:53.949
just collectively behind positive change and

00:55:53.949 --> 00:55:56.550
things not being about money things about being

00:55:56.550 --> 00:56:00.590
sporting you know the ideals of sporting competition

00:56:00.590 --> 00:56:03.420
then maybe things would actually change. But

00:56:03.420 --> 00:56:05.519
the irony in this as well, though, and this is

00:56:05.519 --> 00:56:09.599
the reason it won't change, is because the clubs

00:56:09.599 --> 00:56:11.800
that I've just been mentioning, Barcelona, Real

00:56:11.800 --> 00:56:15.960
Madrid, Bayern Munich, Manchester City, Paris

00:56:15.960 --> 00:56:19.940
Saint -Germain now in particular, all of these

00:56:19.940 --> 00:56:22.380
huge clubs that have a monopoly on this, Chelsea,

00:56:22.619 --> 00:56:27.059
they're also the best supported. Yeah, and therefore

00:56:27.059 --> 00:56:30.260
the most hated as well. there's always going

00:56:30.260 --> 00:56:32.699
to be one or two of them every year who get screwed

00:56:32.699 --> 00:56:35.519
over or lose or someone can take their schadenfreude

00:56:35.519 --> 00:56:38.579
about not winning but there's always going to

00:56:38.579 --> 00:56:41.000
be one that ends up winning it as well and yeah

00:56:41.000 --> 00:56:42.960
I think the collective of football fans just

00:56:42.960 --> 00:56:45.820
need to This is the thing. These people have

00:56:45.820 --> 00:56:47.820
the most influential boardrooms and they have

00:56:47.820 --> 00:56:50.340
the biggest fan bases. And so the people who

00:56:50.340 --> 00:56:52.340
are in the boardrooms can go into these meetings

00:56:52.340 --> 00:56:55.219
where they might have the opportunity to open

00:56:55.219 --> 00:56:58.800
this forum up to a wider pool of clubs. And they're

00:56:58.800 --> 00:57:01.179
able to fall back on, but look at all these fans

00:57:01.179 --> 00:57:03.539
that actually support the current status quo.

00:57:03.860 --> 00:57:07.219
And so it's just a circular, self -fulfilling

00:57:07.219 --> 00:57:10.699
issue. Meanwhile, whilst your club's in the championship

00:57:10.699 --> 00:57:13.860
or whilst it's in the mid -table, like the lower

00:57:13.860 --> 00:57:15.900
end of the premier league you don't give a shit

00:57:15.900 --> 00:57:17.780
because it's not currently affecting you but

00:57:17.780 --> 00:57:20.000
then you're leicester city one year and you qualify

00:57:20.000 --> 00:57:21.679
and then you realize you don't have a fucking

00:57:21.679 --> 00:57:23.500
hope in hell and you're like really disappointed

00:57:23.500 --> 00:57:25.059
about it for a whole 12 months and then you get

00:57:25.059 --> 00:57:26.639
relegated three years later and you forget all

00:57:26.639 --> 00:57:28.800
about it again it's like imagine if you could

00:57:28.800 --> 00:57:31.579
have won that like leicester why couldn't leicester

00:57:31.579 --> 00:57:35.579
have won it No reason whatsoever. But they had

00:57:35.579 --> 00:57:38.380
a 0 % chance. They had a 0 % chance. And they'll

00:57:38.380 --> 00:57:40.019
sit there going, oh, we made the quarterfinals.

00:57:40.019 --> 00:57:41.619
We had a great run. We played Atletico Madrid.

00:57:41.920 --> 00:57:44.360
All true. Don't get me wrong. Well played you.

00:57:44.440 --> 00:57:46.719
Good effort. But you could have actually had

00:57:46.719 --> 00:57:48.300
a shot at this tournament if it was actually

00:57:48.300 --> 00:57:50.639
accessible. You wouldn't have had to have sold

00:57:50.639 --> 00:57:54.500
Riyad Mahrez and N 'Golo Kante. You could have

00:57:54.500 --> 00:57:59.239
kept them and said to them, one more year, let's

00:57:59.239 --> 00:58:04.050
go for the Champions League. Mate, drives me

00:58:04.050 --> 00:58:07.170
insane. Drives me insane. And it all started

00:58:07.170 --> 00:58:11.030
with fucking Olympic Marseille. All started with...

00:58:11.030 --> 00:58:15.710
Go ahead, talk about Marseille. You've been threatening

00:58:15.710 --> 00:58:18.429
to do so. Yeah, well, the reason I've picked

00:58:18.429 --> 00:58:20.809
them out to bully them is because I think that

00:58:20.809 --> 00:58:24.070
the timing of it is just so ironic. It was the

00:58:24.070 --> 00:58:27.010
first... They won the first Champions League

00:58:27.010 --> 00:58:32.300
in its newest format. And it was shrouded in

00:58:32.300 --> 00:58:36.559
controversy because basically there was a huge

00:58:36.559 --> 00:58:38.860
bribery scandal that broke after they won Ligue

00:58:38.860 --> 00:58:43.780
1 in 92 -93, which is also this. They also won

00:58:43.780 --> 00:58:45.860
the Champions League same year. And in the lead

00:58:45.860 --> 00:58:49.320
up to the final where they were playing Milan,

00:58:49.539 --> 00:58:55.300
was it Inter or AC? AC. AC, when they were playing.

00:58:56.059 --> 00:58:58.119
So they were in the lead up to the final where

00:58:58.119 --> 00:58:59.539
they were playing AC. It was a great, great AC

00:58:59.539 --> 00:59:04.260
Milan team. With Maldini and co. Yes. They were

00:59:04.260 --> 00:59:07.420
playing Valenciennes. I think that's how you

00:59:07.420 --> 00:59:09.340
say it. But I said it with a Spanish accent rather

00:59:09.340 --> 00:59:13.139
than a French one. And accent is a generous interpretation

00:59:13.139 --> 00:59:16.780
of that. I'm mispronouncing it. Everybody probably

00:59:16.780 --> 00:59:19.840
knows who they are. They were playing them in

00:59:19.840 --> 00:59:23.230
the final. Not the final game of Liga, but like,

00:59:23.250 --> 00:59:26.050
oh, it might have been actually. Up to the game

00:59:26.050 --> 00:59:28.570
preceding the final, the Champions League final.

00:59:28.809 --> 00:59:32.230
But importantly, Marseille still needed to win

00:59:32.230 --> 00:59:35.690
that game in order to win Liga. And in the build

00:59:35.690 --> 00:59:38.429
up to it, their president who had bought out

00:59:38.429 --> 00:59:43.469
Marseille and was a modern day billionaire. So

00:59:43.469 --> 00:59:46.769
he was a millionaire back in the relevant time,

00:59:46.829 --> 00:59:50.980
I think. you know much of a muchness same very

00:59:50.980 --> 00:59:55.559
rich man yes financial power he approached his

00:59:55.559 --> 01:00:00.059
captain who knew who previously played for Valenciennes

01:00:00.059 --> 01:00:04.559
and told him like you need to make sure that

01:00:04.559 --> 01:00:07.920
they don't basically play us properly and they

01:00:07.920 --> 01:00:10.860
throw the game and let us win and very long story

01:00:10.860 --> 01:00:13.360
short I think about three players are offered

01:00:13.360 --> 01:00:16.000
a bribe one of them refused it two of them accepted

01:00:16.000 --> 01:00:20.559
it and I I think by extension, influenced some

01:00:20.559 --> 01:00:24.300
of their other teammates. And in the game, Marseille

01:00:24.300 --> 01:00:27.619
won, I think they won 1 -0 or 2 -0. But anyway,

01:00:28.699 --> 01:00:32.099
the upshot of it all is that the referee became

01:00:32.099 --> 01:00:34.300
quite suspicious because two of the players for

01:00:34.300 --> 01:00:36.039
Valenciennes, who normally give him quite a hard

01:00:36.039 --> 01:00:38.940
time, were like not, like we weren't talking

01:00:38.940 --> 01:00:41.480
to him at all. and weren't complaining about

01:00:41.480 --> 01:00:43.199
decisions. That is suspicious. You know anything

01:00:43.199 --> 01:00:45.800
about footballers? Yeah, it's a bit like saying

01:00:45.800 --> 01:00:49.920
Roy Keane was really polite to me. That would

01:00:49.920 --> 01:00:55.199
be a red flag. And so he was suspicious, but

01:00:55.199 --> 01:00:58.440
obviously didn't have any reason to believe that

01:00:58.440 --> 01:01:00.159
the game was necessarily being chucked. He just

01:01:00.159 --> 01:01:02.480
thought it was odd. And then there was one player

01:01:02.480 --> 01:01:03.960
who was running around like a headless chicken

01:01:03.960 --> 01:01:06.900
trying to prove a point, who was the guy who

01:01:06.900 --> 01:01:10.280
refused the bribe. So he was clearly trying very

01:01:10.280 --> 01:01:14.519
hard. Props to that guy. Yeah, he went to his

01:01:14.519 --> 01:01:17.940
manager at the time, Boro Primaric, who went

01:01:17.940 --> 01:01:20.159
on to be Arsenal's assistant for like six years

01:01:20.159 --> 01:01:23.719
or something under Wenger, and told him at halftime

01:01:23.719 --> 01:01:26.960
that he'd been offered a bribe and he had refused

01:01:26.960 --> 01:01:30.460
it. This then set the wheels in motion. The game

01:01:30.460 --> 01:01:33.630
finishes. Marseille win. But obviously the police

01:01:33.630 --> 01:01:35.590
then go enter into the Marseille dressing room

01:01:35.590 --> 01:01:37.190
at the full time whistle. They're like interviewing

01:01:37.190 --> 01:01:39.210
people. I don't know if anyone was arrested on

01:01:39.210 --> 01:01:41.789
the day, but it obviously turned into a big breaking

01:01:41.789 --> 01:01:45.449
scandal. Marseille win the league, but it remains

01:01:45.449 --> 01:01:48.449
under investigation. They then go and play the

01:01:48.449 --> 01:01:49.989
Champions League final the following week and

01:01:49.989 --> 01:01:52.130
they win 1 -0 and they win the Champions League.

01:01:52.730 --> 01:01:57.250
But this thing rumbles on. Investigations become...

01:01:57.610 --> 01:01:59.650
more and more intense, more and more forensic.

01:02:00.349 --> 01:02:03.829
And the police find like 250 grand in one of

01:02:03.829 --> 01:02:06.730
the players' back gardens. The president of Marseille

01:02:06.730 --> 01:02:08.710
tries to say that, you know, he offered it to

01:02:08.710 --> 01:02:11.130
him as a loan, which, you know, yeah, because

01:02:11.130 --> 01:02:16.690
we all keep our loans in our shed. And then it's

01:02:16.690 --> 01:02:19.519
essentially proven. against Marseille at a domestic

01:02:19.519 --> 01:02:22.500
level. They are relegated. They're stripped of

01:02:22.500 --> 01:02:24.780
the title. It gets offered to PSG, who came second.

01:02:24.820 --> 01:02:27.500
They refuse it. I think they refused it because

01:02:27.500 --> 01:02:30.659
they had a big viewership with Canal +, maybe,

01:02:30.739 --> 01:02:34.420
and they were worried about profiteering from

01:02:34.420 --> 01:02:36.699
someone else's title. It all stank a little bit.

01:02:36.880 --> 01:02:38.360
But basically, there's no official winner of

01:02:38.360 --> 01:02:42.579
Ligue 1 in 92 -93 as a result. But the reason

01:02:42.579 --> 01:02:45.519
it's interesting is because as the years have

01:02:45.519 --> 01:02:48.300
gone by, as these things tend to, More and more

01:02:48.300 --> 01:02:49.659
people come out of the woodwork and they start

01:02:49.659 --> 01:02:51.800
telling you about suspicious things that happened

01:02:51.800 --> 01:02:56.940
when they were playing or goings -on around them

01:02:56.940 --> 01:02:58.480
that they became aware of but didn't really have

01:02:58.480 --> 01:03:00.559
enough to substantiate. But obviously once Marseille

01:03:00.559 --> 01:03:02.639
get convicted, they start coming out of the woodwork.

01:03:02.760 --> 01:03:06.699
And Rangers were fucked hard in the group stages

01:03:06.699 --> 01:03:10.920
by Marseille. They lost out by a goal going through

01:03:10.920 --> 01:03:12.659
to the final. I think it actually is a point

01:03:12.659 --> 01:03:15.260
in the end because the goal changes the results.

01:03:16.170 --> 01:03:20.809
But Rangers drew with Marseille maybe twice in

01:03:20.809 --> 01:03:22.889
that group. I can't remember the precise results.

01:03:23.090 --> 01:03:25.010
But anyway, it all came down to the results against

01:03:25.010 --> 01:03:28.409
CSKA Moscow. Rangers beat CSKA Moscow and then

01:03:28.409 --> 01:03:33.090
drew with them. And CSKA Moscow drew with Marseille

01:03:33.090 --> 01:03:37.630
and then lost 6 -0 in the return game against

01:03:37.630 --> 01:03:41.050
Marseille. 6 -0. If you look at the results in

01:03:41.050 --> 01:03:43.510
the group, mate, they're all like 2 -1, 1 -1,

01:03:43.570 --> 01:03:50.840
0 -0. And then CSKA lose 6 -0. And yeah, again,

01:03:51.019 --> 01:03:52.920
long story short, there's been basically allegations

01:03:52.920 --> 01:03:55.219
that the CSKA Moscow players were bought off

01:03:55.219 --> 01:03:57.579
in order for Marseille to get through. And then

01:03:57.579 --> 01:04:00.119
in the lead up to the final, so between the Valenciennes

01:04:00.119 --> 01:04:03.460
game and the AC Milan final, there were reports

01:04:03.460 --> 01:04:05.400
that certain Marseille players were given suspicious

01:04:05.400 --> 01:04:10.030
injections to get them through the final. So

01:04:10.030 --> 01:04:12.250
there's a doping element. Some vitamin injections,

01:04:12.550 --> 01:04:14.909
classic. Yeah, there's a doping element to it.

01:04:14.949 --> 01:04:18.550
In inverted commas. There's a bribery element

01:04:18.550 --> 01:04:20.449
to it, but not just a bribery element at a domestic

01:04:20.449 --> 01:04:22.269
level. There's allegations that it was happening

01:04:22.269 --> 01:04:26.710
in the Champions League as well. And just to

01:04:26.710 --> 01:04:29.190
sort of complete this circle, you mentioned Red

01:04:29.190 --> 01:04:31.630
Star Belgrade. They beat Marseille two years

01:04:31.630 --> 01:04:33.949
earlier on penalties and there were allegations

01:04:33.949 --> 01:04:36.510
in the lead up to that game that the same president

01:04:36.510 --> 01:04:39.940
of Marseille had offered the Red Star players

01:04:39.940 --> 01:04:44.559
money to chuck the game so that Marseille could

01:04:44.559 --> 01:04:47.280
be European champions. And thankfully, Red Star

01:04:47.280 --> 01:04:50.780
said, go fuck yourselves. Which you would in

01:04:50.780 --> 01:04:53.099
a European final. You might not in a group stage

01:04:53.099 --> 01:04:56.900
match. Exactly. Such as CSKA. Just to speculate.

01:04:57.320 --> 01:05:01.150
Nothing to base that on. Just to speculate. I'm

01:05:01.150 --> 01:05:04.329
aware, right, that my tone has struck a frustrated

01:05:04.329 --> 01:05:07.190
one throughout this episode. And I've spoken

01:05:07.190 --> 01:05:10.070
about this competition in a very negative light

01:05:10.070 --> 01:05:12.389
for a little while. And I would like to talk

01:05:12.389 --> 01:05:14.550
about it positively at some stage. But before

01:05:14.550 --> 01:05:17.309
we do make that transition, is there anything...

01:05:17.309 --> 01:05:20.130
Do you want to mention Heysel and other aspects

01:05:20.130 --> 01:05:24.530
of the Champions League? Refereeing issues? Yeah,

01:05:24.590 --> 01:05:27.440
refereeing issues. I'll get into this early,

01:05:27.480 --> 01:05:28.940
because early in the competition there was a

01:05:28.940 --> 01:05:31.280
few question marks around refereeing of Real

01:05:31.280 --> 01:05:34.300
Madrid games for a start, perhaps unsurprisingly.

01:05:35.079 --> 01:05:38.860
The 1957 final, Real Madrid -Fiorentina, there

01:05:38.860 --> 01:05:40.619
was a penalty apparently awarded to Real Madrid,

01:05:40.760 --> 01:05:44.159
where the player who was fouled being both offside

01:05:44.159 --> 01:05:46.800
and outside the box when the foul occurred. The

01:05:46.800 --> 01:05:48.260
line's been flagged for offside and was ignored

01:05:48.260 --> 01:05:50.539
by the referee. Di Stefano scored the penalty.

01:05:51.079 --> 01:05:53.719
which is the opening goal in a 2 -0 win. Speculation,

01:05:53.719 --> 01:05:55.900
obviously, around political interference by Franco

01:05:55.900 --> 01:06:00.099
in that. There's a couple of other... The famous

01:06:00.099 --> 01:06:01.539
one that's been doing the rounds recently of

01:06:01.539 --> 01:06:03.719
a very, very soft penalty given to Real Madrid

01:06:03.719 --> 01:06:06.519
in the 1960 final against Eintracht Frankfurt.

01:06:07.019 --> 01:06:09.000
That being said, I think that made the score

01:06:09.000 --> 01:06:11.380
4 -0 or 4 -1 or 5 -1 or something at the time

01:06:11.380 --> 01:06:14.039
and ended up being 7 -3 to Real Madrid that day.

01:06:14.099 --> 01:06:16.000
So I'm not sure it would have necessarily affected

01:06:16.000 --> 01:06:18.469
the result, but nevertheless. There was other

01:06:18.469 --> 01:06:20.610
controversial refereeing in the competition.

01:06:20.789 --> 01:06:24.230
There was a 1965 semi -final Inter Milan versus

01:06:24.230 --> 01:06:27.369
Liverpool. Liverpool's first foray into the European

01:06:27.369 --> 01:06:31.230
Cup, having won the league in 1964 and, you know,

01:06:31.230 --> 01:06:34.610
only promoted just before that under Shankly.

01:06:35.130 --> 01:06:37.750
Yeah. So Liverpool were 3 -1 up from the home

01:06:37.750 --> 01:06:40.110
leg but lost the second leg 3 -0. Two of the

01:06:40.110 --> 01:06:41.809
goals were controversial. The first sort of free

01:06:41.809 --> 01:06:43.849
kick goes straight in, allegedly having been

01:06:43.849 --> 01:06:46.789
given as indirect. And the second was Liverpool

01:06:46.789 --> 01:06:48.329
goalkeeper had a ball in hand. He was bouncing

01:06:48.329 --> 01:06:52.190
it, ready to kick it. And he got barged off the

01:06:52.190 --> 01:06:55.389
ball and the ball was tapped in, which was even

01:06:55.389 --> 01:06:59.329
in the 1960s. That's a foul. That's a foul. But

01:06:59.329 --> 01:07:01.550
it was given as a goal. And Liverpool also had

01:07:01.550 --> 01:07:04.309
an Ian St John goal disallowed controversially

01:07:04.309 --> 01:07:07.829
for offside as well. All that on its own. I mean,

01:07:07.849 --> 01:07:10.150
we know what the English press are like. Always

01:07:10.150 --> 01:07:14.079
quick to blame. when an English team loses to

01:07:14.079 --> 01:07:17.239
defend English honour. But that being said, there's

01:07:17.239 --> 01:07:20.119
no smoke without fire in this case because Italo

01:07:20.119 --> 01:07:22.139
Alodi, the Inter Milan secretary at the time,

01:07:22.159 --> 01:07:24.480
was repeatedly linked to match -fixing scandals

01:07:24.480 --> 01:07:26.880
during his career. An Italian match -fixing?

01:07:26.880 --> 01:07:31.280
We haven't heard that before. Oh, yes. So Derby

01:07:31.280 --> 01:07:34.420
County got to the 1973 semi -final and played

01:07:34.420 --> 01:07:36.940
Juventus and that was the away leg in Italy was

01:07:36.940 --> 01:07:39.940
marked with controversy there. A quote from...

01:07:40.139 --> 01:07:41.960
One of our favourite managers, Brian Clough,

01:07:41.980 --> 01:07:44.579
who was Derby manager at the time. I'm not going

01:07:44.579 --> 01:07:46.340
to do the accent, although it's a fantastic,

01:07:46.579 --> 01:07:50.239
immutable accent, but the lousy stench still

01:07:50.239 --> 01:07:52.380
fills my nostrils when I think of the attempts

01:07:52.380 --> 01:07:55.039
at corruption. UEFA later carried out some sort

01:07:55.039 --> 01:07:57.199
of inquiry, but the truth has remained somewhere,

01:07:57.320 --> 01:07:59.619
swept behind the carpet in the corridors of power.

01:07:59.940 --> 01:08:01.780
And this is another problem with the Marseille.

01:08:01.960 --> 01:08:04.219
I was going to say this as well. I bet UEFA probably,

01:08:04.519 --> 01:08:07.420
quote unquote, investigated. and deem there not

01:08:07.420 --> 01:08:09.420
to be enough evidence. There's no will for these

01:08:09.420 --> 01:08:12.000
governing bodies to actually fight any of this.

01:08:12.119 --> 01:08:13.739
We've investigated really thoroughly, but there's

01:08:13.739 --> 01:08:15.760
just insufficient evidence on this occasion.

01:08:16.220 --> 01:08:20.140
Oh, that's convenient. It's always insufficient

01:08:20.140 --> 01:08:22.960
evidence, regardless of the fact that that implies

01:08:22.960 --> 01:08:24.880
there was some. There should be no evidence.

01:08:26.840 --> 01:08:30.380
I mean, I guess no definitive evidence, I guess

01:08:30.380 --> 01:08:32.479
they'd say. As you mentioned, Italy does have

01:08:32.479 --> 01:08:35.420
something of a reputation for match -fixing.

01:08:35.460 --> 01:08:41.159
The Calciopoli scandal in the 2000s, Juventus

01:08:41.159 --> 01:08:45.460
ended up getting relegated for that, although

01:08:45.460 --> 01:08:47.960
not as far relegated as they were initially done.

01:08:48.079 --> 01:08:50.399
They only went down to Serie B on appeal and

01:08:50.399 --> 01:08:52.899
quickly re -established themselves as... dominant

01:08:52.899 --> 01:08:56.600
team in Italy after that. Isn't it AC Fiorentina

01:08:56.600 --> 01:08:58.800
and someone else got a points deduction as well?

01:08:59.000 --> 01:09:02.680
Yeah. So Liverpool ended up, it was 11 years,

01:09:02.859 --> 01:09:04.939
no, sorry, 12 years later, Liverpool finally

01:09:04.939 --> 01:09:07.899
won a European Cup, 1977, winning their first,

01:09:08.060 --> 01:09:11.479
which they followed up with four more until 1984,

01:09:11.760 --> 01:09:14.699
in a period where English clubs were completely

01:09:14.699 --> 01:09:17.180
dominant in Europe. They won six competitions

01:09:17.180 --> 01:09:21.899
in a row, English teams between 19... 1977 and

01:09:21.899 --> 01:09:25.439
1982. We have Liverpool winning three of them,

01:09:25.479 --> 01:09:27.340
Forest winning two, and Aston Villa winning one.

01:09:27.619 --> 01:09:29.979
So yeah, very dominant time for English teams.

01:09:30.979 --> 01:09:35.079
And Liverpool won again in 1984. One more refereeing

01:09:35.079 --> 01:09:37.340
controversy, because my dad would not forgive

01:09:37.340 --> 01:09:41.760
me if I didn't mention this. The 1975 final by

01:09:41.760 --> 01:09:45.079
Munich versus Leeds United. The referee was Michel

01:09:45.079 --> 01:09:49.939
Kitabdijan. He was a French referee. Just to

01:09:49.939 --> 01:09:52.420
put a bit of balance into it, there was some

01:09:52.420 --> 01:09:55.000
controversies both ways in the match. Early in

01:09:55.000 --> 01:09:56.899
the match, Leeds' Terry Yoroff broke an opponent's

01:09:56.899 --> 01:10:02.060
leg but was not sent off. But more importantly

01:10:02.060 --> 01:10:04.779
than that, in this case, there was two penalty

01:10:04.779 --> 01:10:07.140
appeals for Leeds which were ignored. One for

01:10:07.140 --> 01:10:09.899
a handball and one for a foul. Franz Beckenbauer

01:10:09.899 --> 01:10:12.319
being involved in both. And then Leeds had a

01:10:12.319 --> 01:10:14.760
goal disallowed. Peter Lauren was scored, but

01:10:14.760 --> 01:10:17.800
the referee disallowed it after Franz Beckenbauer

01:10:17.800 --> 01:10:20.600
spoke to him. And the referee cited passive offside

01:10:20.600 --> 01:10:23.300
against Billy Bremner and watched the goal. It

01:10:23.300 --> 01:10:26.020
is available. It is nonsense that that goal wasn't

01:10:26.020 --> 01:10:28.560
given. And the linesman had not flagged for offside.

01:10:28.659 --> 01:10:31.340
The referee just overruled it after Franz Beckenbauer

01:10:31.340 --> 01:10:33.960
spoke to him. The match restarted, obviously.

01:10:34.300 --> 01:10:37.760
Bayern capitalised and won 2 -0 in the end. And

01:10:37.760 --> 01:10:41.319
Leeds fans rioted, unsurprisingly. There was

01:10:41.319 --> 01:10:45.819
a lot of poor fan behaviour. Yeah, there was

01:10:45.819 --> 01:10:47.600
a lot of poor fan behaviour from English teams

01:10:47.600 --> 01:10:50.060
at the time, from English fans at the time. Spurs

01:10:50.060 --> 01:10:52.560
had some incidents as well. Manchester United,

01:10:52.779 --> 01:10:56.199
I think in 1977, played, I think 1977, sometime

01:10:56.199 --> 01:10:58.060
around there, played San Etienne and there was

01:10:58.060 --> 01:11:00.699
big crowd trouble around that time as well. So

01:11:00.699 --> 01:11:04.399
it was very common for English clubs. Hooliganism

01:11:04.399 --> 01:11:07.279
generally. In the 80s, late 70s and the 80s,

01:11:07.279 --> 01:11:10.250
it was like at its peak, wasn't it? I would say.

01:11:10.930 --> 01:11:15.770
Yeah, so it wasn't a solely English phenomenon,

01:11:15.930 --> 01:11:20.149
but English teams were probably slightly disproportionately

01:11:20.149 --> 01:11:23.670
punished for it, but also probably slightly deserved

01:11:23.670 --> 01:11:26.729
it for being worse than others. The socio -economic

01:11:26.729 --> 01:11:29.350
situation in the United Kingdom during the late

01:11:29.350 --> 01:11:31.869
70s and early 80s was not exactly a positive

01:11:31.869 --> 01:11:35.409
one. No, and again, I don't want to get into

01:11:35.409 --> 01:11:37.130
another... I don't think we've got enough time

01:11:37.130 --> 01:11:40.720
to go off on another tangent. but the way the

01:11:40.720 --> 01:11:43.319
Thatcher government particularly, there was this

01:11:43.319 --> 01:11:46.779
concept of the enemy within, which was largely

01:11:46.779 --> 01:11:49.539
linked to the miners' strike. So the miners'

01:11:49.640 --> 01:11:51.600
strike, which was around a sort of similar time

01:11:51.600 --> 01:11:57.560
in the early 80s, that the idea that these working

01:11:57.560 --> 01:12:00.979
class people who were against what Britain stood

01:12:00.979 --> 01:12:03.640
for and against the direction Britain was moving

01:12:03.640 --> 01:12:06.220
in or wherever else, and another sector that

01:12:06.220 --> 01:12:09.640
was largely... or heavily put in that category

01:12:09.640 --> 01:12:12.800
as well were football fans with the hooliganism

01:12:12.800 --> 01:12:14.739
that was going on. Albeit it was obviously a

01:12:14.739 --> 01:12:16.819
minority of fans who were making a lot of noise

01:12:16.819 --> 01:12:19.579
but all football fans were sort of thrown in

01:12:19.579 --> 01:12:23.520
together and it was a political thing by Thatcher.

01:12:23.600 --> 01:12:26.260
She was a very, very, very smart politician and

01:12:26.260 --> 01:12:28.420
knew probably ahead of her time if you look at

01:12:28.420 --> 01:12:30.239
sort of the modern age of divide and conquer

01:12:30.239 --> 01:12:32.880
politics or behind her time if you look at the

01:12:32.880 --> 01:12:36.609
past age of divide and conquer politics. Whatever

01:12:36.609 --> 01:12:39.130
way you look at it, she knew how to divide and

01:12:39.130 --> 01:12:41.890
conquer, and football fans were thrown into that

01:12:41.890 --> 01:12:45.250
particular mould as well. But anyway, I'm getting

01:12:45.250 --> 01:12:46.670
slightly off topic. I'll talk more about that

01:12:46.670 --> 01:12:49.130
when we get around probably April next year,

01:12:49.210 --> 01:12:52.630
talk about Hillsborough. Made a big impact on

01:12:52.630 --> 01:12:55.689
that. But Leeds got banned from Europe for it.

01:12:55.909 --> 01:12:58.930
Obviously, there was massive negative media portrayal

01:12:58.930 --> 01:13:01.130
of English fans, as you'd expect, and politics

01:13:01.130 --> 01:13:05.529
as well. And this all leads to... The darkest

01:13:05.529 --> 01:13:08.090
day in the European Cup's history and certainly

01:13:08.090 --> 01:13:12.569
probably the most shameful day in Liverpool Football

01:13:12.569 --> 01:13:15.930
Club's history. Liverpool have been involved

01:13:15.930 --> 01:13:20.609
in two tragic events in the mid to late 80s.

01:13:20.689 --> 01:13:22.729
The second one being Hillsborough, which was

01:13:22.729 --> 01:13:28.189
simply not the Liverpool fans' fault in any way,

01:13:28.250 --> 01:13:29.590
shape or form. I don't care what anyone says

01:13:29.590 --> 01:13:32.180
about it. That was a game that was... poorly

01:13:32.180 --> 01:13:33.779
policed and no matter what happened afterwards

01:13:33.779 --> 01:13:37.600
eventually the truth was found due to a lot of

01:13:37.600 --> 01:13:40.859
incredible work by the families I'll get into

01:13:40.859 --> 01:13:43.680
that in more detail one day but Heisel was a

01:13:43.680 --> 01:13:46.340
very different story for Liverpool it's something

01:13:46.340 --> 01:13:49.539
that to the club shame I would say hasn't been

01:13:49.539 --> 01:13:51.060
acknowledged enough or certainly wasn't acknowledged

01:13:51.060 --> 01:13:54.859
enough until maybe 20 years later when Liverpool

01:13:54.859 --> 01:13:58.899
and Juventus next played in 2005 Champions League

01:13:58.899 --> 01:14:03.270
when Liverpool made some acknowledgement of it

01:14:03.270 --> 01:14:07.569
happening. But 1985, Liverpool, Juventus, European

01:14:07.569 --> 01:14:10.189
Cup final. Liverpool at this point had won three

01:14:10.189 --> 01:14:13.430
out of the last eight competitions, hadn't ever

01:14:13.430 --> 01:14:16.479
lost a European final. still one of the best

01:14:16.479 --> 01:14:18.819
teams in, well, were the best team in England

01:14:18.819 --> 01:14:21.180
and still one of the best teams in Europe, were

01:14:21.180 --> 01:14:24.479
expected probably to win on balance. But they

01:14:24.479 --> 01:14:26.420
were playing at Heysel, a stadium which was,

01:14:26.520 --> 01:14:30.460
it had already been deemed, it was fundamentally

01:14:30.460 --> 01:14:35.840
unsafe. It was fundamentally unsafe. It's a very

01:14:35.840 --> 01:14:38.279
interesting case because I don't want to, the

01:14:38.279 --> 01:14:39.739
last thing I want to do is sound like I'm making

01:14:39.739 --> 01:14:41.899
excuses for Liverpool fans' behaviour that day,

01:14:41.979 --> 01:14:44.359
which wasn't good. Obviously, it was very, very

01:14:44.359 --> 01:14:47.630
bad. But if you're going to attribute blame for

01:14:47.630 --> 01:14:49.529
what happened at Heysel and why those 39 fans

01:14:49.529 --> 01:14:54.170
died, I think there's other people that should

01:14:54.170 --> 01:14:56.029
certainly be looked at and who were looked at.

01:14:56.250 --> 01:14:58.869
The stadium had already been condemned, essentially,

01:14:58.970 --> 01:15:01.750
before this final even took place. Arsenal played

01:15:01.750 --> 01:15:05.329
in the 1980 Cop Winners' Cup final there against

01:15:05.329 --> 01:15:07.869
Valencia. And there were complaints from both

01:15:07.869 --> 01:15:10.409
teams, from the Valencia and Arsenal boards,

01:15:10.550 --> 01:15:12.609
about the condition of the stadium, about the

01:15:12.609 --> 01:15:15.350
way the fans were treated and how unsafe they

01:15:15.350 --> 01:15:17.109
felt in the stadium. The Arsenal fans called

01:15:17.109 --> 01:15:20.649
it a dump. I think that's being generous. It

01:15:20.649 --> 01:15:22.850
was falling apart. Yeah, it was dilapidated,

01:15:22.930 --> 01:15:29.850
yeah. Yeah. So before the match, both teams pled

01:15:29.850 --> 01:15:32.270
to UEFA to change the venue and it was ignored.

01:15:32.909 --> 01:15:35.729
The Liverpool chief executive had written to

01:15:35.729 --> 01:15:38.270
UEFA and the Belgian FA and asked them, please,

01:15:38.310 --> 01:15:40.109
could we change the venue of this stadium? This

01:15:40.109 --> 01:15:42.470
is not safe. And he got ignored, got no response

01:15:42.470 --> 01:15:49.510
to his letters. Yeah, so it was in severe disrepair.

01:15:49.550 --> 01:15:52.529
The game just should not have been played there.

01:15:52.989 --> 01:15:56.710
It shouldn't have been played there. So UEFA

01:15:56.710 --> 01:15:58.729
went and inspected the stadium. The inspection

01:15:58.729 --> 01:16:01.869
lasted 30 minutes and the venue was not changed.

01:16:02.490 --> 01:16:05.949
The placement of fans was questionable, so the

01:16:05.949 --> 01:16:09.170
stadium was divided into six blocks. Three of

01:16:09.170 --> 01:16:10.970
those blocks were given to Juventus, two of the

01:16:10.970 --> 01:16:13.090
blocks were given to Liverpool, and one of the

01:16:13.090 --> 01:16:14.989
blocks was given to neutrals, but the reality

01:16:14.989 --> 01:16:18.710
was that that block was mostly full of Juventus

01:16:18.710 --> 01:16:22.010
fans, or heavily full of Juventus fans, and because

01:16:22.010 --> 01:16:24.859
it was deemed a neutral section... The policing

01:16:24.859 --> 01:16:26.600
that was present between the Liverpool fans and

01:16:26.600 --> 01:16:28.680
the Juventus fans wasn't present between the

01:16:28.680 --> 01:16:30.699
Liverpool fans and the neutral fans. And that

01:16:30.699 --> 01:16:33.359
had been brought to light by the chief executive

01:16:33.359 --> 01:16:37.819
beforehand as well. So the day had been a warm

01:16:37.819 --> 01:16:42.899
day in Brussels that day. And a lot of English

01:16:42.899 --> 01:16:47.840
fans, the consensus was that European beer was

01:16:47.840 --> 01:16:51.710
weaker than English beer. And so those men who

01:16:51.710 --> 01:16:54.270
was quaffing pints in Belgium. Sorry, in Belgium?

01:16:54.369 --> 01:16:57.310
We well know. Yeah, that is fundamentally inaccurate.

01:16:59.229 --> 01:17:03.130
Yeah. So quaffing what they thought was beer,

01:17:03.170 --> 01:17:06.329
the strength of sort of mild, like 3 % beer,

01:17:06.470 --> 01:17:09.210
which actually turned out to be about 7 % beer

01:17:09.210 --> 01:17:14.729
because it's Belgium. And were very, very drunk

01:17:14.729 --> 01:17:18.689
as a result. So around 7pm. Fans began throwing

01:17:18.689 --> 01:17:22.270
objects over the fence, separating X and Z. Sections

01:17:22.270 --> 01:17:24.449
X and Z. Section X was Liverpool fans. Section

01:17:24.449 --> 01:17:27.829
Z was the neutral section, which contained largely

01:17:27.829 --> 01:17:30.590
Juventus fans. Liverpool fans then charged the

01:17:30.590 --> 01:17:32.989
section. And again, I'm not defending the actions

01:17:32.989 --> 01:17:37.449
of the fans at all. The Juventus fans fled. Largely

01:17:37.449 --> 01:17:39.310
Juventus fans. Juventus and neutral fans as well.

01:17:39.510 --> 01:17:41.729
A lot of Belgian fans in there as well. And I

01:17:41.729 --> 01:17:43.609
believe one fan from Northern Ireland was killed

01:17:43.609 --> 01:17:46.350
as well. So they fled towards a poorly maintained

01:17:46.350 --> 01:17:48.569
wall, which crumbled under their pressure and

01:17:48.569 --> 01:17:50.630
collapsed upon them, causing the fatal crush

01:17:50.630 --> 01:17:54.250
injuries and killing 39 people and hundreds more

01:17:54.250 --> 01:17:58.510
were injured. Juventus fans retaliated, as you'd

01:17:58.510 --> 01:18:00.930
expect, clashing with police for two hours. The

01:18:00.930 --> 01:18:03.189
kick -off was delayed, but authorities decided

01:18:03.189 --> 01:18:05.289
to proceed with the match to prevent further

01:18:05.289 --> 01:18:08.170
violence. It's always the case, isn't it? Both

01:18:08.170 --> 01:18:09.909
teams' captains went out on the pitch to appeal

01:18:09.909 --> 01:18:13.939
for calm and eventually... Juventus won 1 -0

01:18:13.939 --> 01:18:17.439
via a Michel Platini penalty. The Liverpool players

01:18:17.439 --> 01:18:19.520
only learned to the true scale of disaster after

01:18:19.520 --> 01:18:22.039
their match. They departed the stadium under

01:18:22.039 --> 01:18:25.359
heavy police protection and on the 30th of May,

01:18:25.439 --> 01:18:28.239
UEFA observer Gunther Schneider blamed Liverpool

01:18:28.239 --> 01:18:31.199
fans solely for the disaster, as you'd expect,

01:18:31.420 --> 01:18:35.949
which is fucking disgusting. I cannot abide that,

01:18:36.029 --> 01:18:37.770
given everything that happened before the game.

01:18:37.890 --> 01:18:39.869
I appreciate a knee -jerk reaction. I appreciate

01:18:39.869 --> 01:18:43.489
that would be in the best interests of UEFA to

01:18:43.489 --> 01:18:46.430
do so, but to blame it solely on Liverpool fans

01:18:46.430 --> 01:18:48.789
after they were warned repeatedly that this was

01:18:48.789 --> 01:18:52.109
going to happen and then it happened is disgusting.

01:18:52.850 --> 01:18:55.289
So, an investigation found shared culpability

01:18:55.289 --> 01:18:58.489
between the fans, Belgian police and UEFA. Belgian

01:18:58.489 --> 01:19:01.960
police captain Johan Machu was charged with involuntary

01:19:01.960 --> 01:19:05.619
manslaughter. Multiple Liverpool fans were charged

01:19:05.619 --> 01:19:07.279
with the same. Many of them acquitted. Many of

01:19:07.279 --> 01:19:09.720
them found guilty. Some served proven sentences.

01:19:10.420 --> 01:19:14.239
Some had suspended sentences. Stricter rules

01:19:14.239 --> 01:19:16.960
were implemented in English football post -Heisel,

01:19:17.039 --> 01:19:20.399
which had contributory factors towards Hillsborough

01:19:20.399 --> 01:19:22.880
happening three years later. The reaction was

01:19:22.880 --> 01:19:25.079
political. It was political more than it was

01:19:25.079 --> 01:19:28.800
practical. It was, again, an opportunity to paint

01:19:28.800 --> 01:19:33.100
fans as thugs. And, you know, in a sporting sense,

01:19:33.159 --> 01:19:36.140
the most notable outcome, obviously insignificant

01:19:36.140 --> 01:19:39.680
compared to other aspects, but in a sporting

01:19:39.680 --> 01:19:41.859
sense, English clubs were banned from European

01:19:41.859 --> 01:19:44.619
competition. For five seasons after that, Liverpool

01:19:44.619 --> 01:19:47.340
were banned for six, which had obviously an effect.

01:19:47.460 --> 01:19:50.199
Many teams missed out on the opportunity to play

01:19:50.199 --> 01:19:52.300
in the European Cup. Arsenal missed a couple

01:19:52.300 --> 01:19:55.260
of opportunities to play in Europe. Everton missed

01:19:55.260 --> 01:19:57.699
an opportunity because they were champions that

01:19:57.699 --> 01:19:59.529
year. and they missed the opportunity to play

01:19:59.529 --> 01:20:02.149
in 1985 -1986 when they had a very, very strong

01:20:02.149 --> 01:20:07.710
team, including Gary Lineker up front. And after

01:20:07.710 --> 01:20:10.430
the UEFA coefficient rules meant that it took

01:20:10.430 --> 01:20:14.069
a long time up until the late 90s before England

01:20:14.069 --> 01:20:17.010
regained the coefficient points they lost, meaning

01:20:17.010 --> 01:20:19.770
other teams then subsequently missed out on European

01:20:19.770 --> 01:20:22.430
places that would have got them. So the impact

01:20:22.430 --> 01:20:26.300
from a sporting sense was pretty vast. Like 15,

01:20:26.319 --> 01:20:32.180
20 -year legacy, wasn't it, really? Yeah. I can't

01:20:32.180 --> 01:20:35.079
abide the amount of warnings that were given

01:20:35.079 --> 01:20:38.300
and that being UEFA's initial reaction. That's

01:20:38.300 --> 01:20:40.800
the thing that really disgusts me. I mean, football

01:20:40.800 --> 01:20:46.579
stadiums were unsafe. All of them were unsafe

01:20:46.579 --> 01:20:50.409
by modern standards, but some were. particularly

01:20:50.409 --> 01:20:54.289
unsafe and Heysel was the chief unsafe stadium

01:20:54.289 --> 01:20:58.409
so to speak out of all of them so like yeah it

01:20:58.409 --> 01:21:02.149
was a disaster waiting to happen it should have

01:21:02.149 --> 01:21:05.289
been anticipated as well like 1984 final Liverpool

01:21:05.289 --> 01:21:07.449
were in the final as well in Rome against AS

01:21:07.449 --> 01:21:10.149
Roma so effectively an away game for Liverpool

01:21:10.149 --> 01:21:13.069
and there was a lot of crowd trouble that day

01:21:13.069 --> 01:21:17.539
from both sides and included I think a Liverpool

01:21:17.539 --> 01:21:21.579
fan got stabbed by a Roma fan as well. So it

01:21:21.579 --> 01:21:23.739
wasn't so much that Liverpool fans were out for

01:21:23.739 --> 01:21:27.039
revenge as much as they were... I think the consensus

01:21:27.039 --> 01:21:29.060
was that they were going to be on the front foot

01:21:29.060 --> 01:21:32.739
and not allow themselves to be put in a weak

01:21:32.739 --> 01:21:35.840
position and throw some beer into the mix and

01:21:35.840 --> 01:21:38.199
throw a crumbling stadium and it should have

01:21:38.199 --> 01:21:40.779
been anticipated. The point for me would be,

01:21:40.880 --> 01:21:44.140
yes, well... The Liverpool fans caused obviously

01:21:44.140 --> 01:21:46.060
the panic which led to the wall collapsing and

01:21:46.060 --> 01:21:47.619
that could happen in any stadium. There could

01:21:47.619 --> 01:21:51.140
be unfortunate situations with mass crowd movement

01:21:51.140 --> 01:21:53.899
in any stadium, however safe or unsafe it is,

01:21:53.979 --> 01:21:57.939
especially when terraces are involved. But if

01:21:57.939 --> 01:22:00.399
that had been played in a safe stadium, those

01:22:00.399 --> 01:22:03.579
fans wouldn't have died. at least the vast majority

01:22:03.579 --> 01:22:05.399
of deaths and injuries would have been avoided.

01:22:05.680 --> 01:22:07.619
It's not to forgive the Liverpool fans what they

01:22:07.619 --> 01:22:10.619
did, but to say they should have been aware of

01:22:10.619 --> 01:22:12.399
their surroundings. They're just two separate

01:22:12.399 --> 01:22:14.180
issues, aren't they? They're just two separate

01:22:14.180 --> 01:22:17.159
issues. Yeah, I think so. You have a fundamental

01:22:17.159 --> 01:22:19.539
safety issue in terms of the integrity of the

01:22:19.539 --> 01:22:21.340
building, and then you have a behavioural issue.

01:22:21.640 --> 01:22:26.520
And it is not okay to say, if you weren't behaving

01:22:26.520 --> 01:22:28.600
badly, the stadium wouldn't have collapsed, because

01:22:28.600 --> 01:22:30.960
the stadium shouldn't collapse. In the same way

01:22:30.960 --> 01:22:33.300
that it wouldn't be okay for Liverpool fans to

01:22:33.300 --> 01:22:35.760
say, well, if the stadium was safer, then our

01:22:35.760 --> 01:22:37.920
rioting wouldn't have made a difference. The

01:22:37.920 --> 01:22:43.340
point is you don't take one without the other.

01:22:43.479 --> 01:22:45.420
You look at it holistically and the building

01:22:45.420 --> 01:22:48.720
should have been safe. And they knew it was unsafe.

01:22:49.239 --> 01:22:53.260
Yeah. It was institutional failing in UEFA and

01:22:53.260 --> 01:22:58.460
the Belgian authorities to not allow the final

01:22:58.460 --> 01:23:02.409
to play there. which was unforgivable, and especially

01:23:02.409 --> 01:23:05.109
in the light of the comments afterwards. And

01:23:05.109 --> 01:23:08.090
yeah, that's all I'm going to say on the matter.

01:23:08.989 --> 01:23:11.069
But there's also an institutional failing of

01:23:11.069 --> 01:23:12.810
Liverpool Football Club to acknowledge it afterwards.

01:23:13.390 --> 01:23:17.170
And Juventus fans in 2005, Liverpool unveiled

01:23:17.170 --> 01:23:20.970
a banner basically saying friendship in Italian.

01:23:21.050 --> 01:23:22.829
And a lot of Juventus fans just turned their

01:23:22.829 --> 01:23:24.869
back on that. I don't blame them. Liverpool as

01:23:24.869 --> 01:23:27.500
a football club. had not stepped up to the plate

01:23:27.500 --> 01:23:30.260
and apologised and made amends anywhere near

01:23:30.260 --> 01:23:32.939
as much as they should have done for platitudes,

01:23:33.220 --> 01:23:37.800
doth butter, no parsnips. Exactly. So, yeah,

01:23:37.880 --> 01:23:40.300
not a proud day in Liverpool Football Club history,

01:23:40.520 --> 01:23:42.199
but there's been a lot of... There have been

01:23:42.199 --> 01:23:44.939
a lot of proud days in Liverpool Football's history.

01:23:46.739 --> 01:23:48.479
Tragedy chanting and everything like that that

01:23:48.479 --> 01:23:51.880
goes along with it is disgusting and it's a whole

01:23:51.880 --> 01:23:53.739
separate matter and I'm not going to dive into

01:23:53.739 --> 01:23:57.100
that, but... Should we try and be uplifting?

01:23:57.119 --> 01:24:00.319
Disappropriation of blame, shall we say. I tell

01:24:00.319 --> 01:24:02.500
you what, I can be... Can we pivot from Heysel?

01:24:04.340 --> 01:24:06.420
I think we need to go back in time a bit and

01:24:06.420 --> 01:24:08.439
talk about one more thing involving an English

01:24:08.439 --> 01:24:11.579
club in Europe. And it's not uplifting, but it

01:24:11.579 --> 01:24:14.159
leads to something uplifting. And it's a team

01:24:14.159 --> 01:24:16.800
that neither of us particularly like, but it's

01:24:16.800 --> 01:24:18.880
a wonderful part of it. Well, a terrible part

01:24:18.880 --> 01:24:20.779
of English football history, but a wonderful

01:24:20.779 --> 01:24:26.529
recovery from that. And that is... Yeah, so as

01:24:26.529 --> 01:24:28.250
I mentioned, no English clubs took part in the

01:24:28.250 --> 01:24:30.390
first competition. The first English club to

01:24:30.390 --> 01:24:32.489
take part in the European Cup was in the 1956

01:24:32.489 --> 01:24:36.789
-57 tournament. The 1956 and 1957 league champions,

01:24:37.050 --> 01:24:40.710
Manchester United. So they reached the semi -finals,

01:24:40.710 --> 01:24:46.430
I think, in 1957, but were knocked out. I think

01:24:46.430 --> 01:24:48.850
by Real Madrid? Or was that 1958? Anyway, they

01:24:48.850 --> 01:24:50.750
reached the semi -finals, a very good team, but

01:24:50.750 --> 01:24:53.310
didn't quite get all the way. 1958 tournament,

01:24:53.449 --> 01:24:55.569
they were considered the favourites to win it.

01:24:55.750 --> 01:25:00.149
They started at the canter and had advanced to

01:25:00.149 --> 01:25:03.729
the quarterfinals and they won their quarterfinal

01:25:03.729 --> 01:25:07.069
and were on their way back from their quarterfinal

01:25:07.069 --> 01:25:09.970
match where they played the away leg in Belgrade

01:25:09.970 --> 01:25:12.689
and they had to stop off in Munich on their way

01:25:12.689 --> 01:25:16.529
back. British European Airways Flight 609 crashed

01:25:16.529 --> 01:25:18.489
on its third attempt to take off from Munich

01:25:18.489 --> 01:25:22.050
Reim Airport in West Germany. The signs, Jesus

01:25:22.050 --> 01:25:26.130
Christ. Killing 23 people on board, including

01:25:26.130 --> 01:25:28.050
multiple Manchester United players, officials,

01:25:28.329 --> 01:25:32.229
journalists. 21 people survived the crash, some

01:25:32.229 --> 01:25:33.569
of whom were seriously injured, some of whom

01:25:33.569 --> 01:25:36.430
never played again. Due to being seriously injured,

01:25:36.729 --> 01:25:40.430
Harry Gregg, goalkeeper, was a hero that day.

01:25:41.649 --> 01:25:44.649
Rescued many people from... the from the wreckage

01:25:44.649 --> 01:25:48.590
saved a lot of lives the takeoff attempt so it

01:25:48.590 --> 01:25:50.170
was the third attempt to take off two attempts

01:25:50.170 --> 01:25:53.789
were aborted due to engine boost surging The

01:25:53.789 --> 01:25:56.069
third attempt was made despite the weather worsening

01:25:56.069 --> 01:25:58.949
to that point. Snowfall caused slush to form

01:25:58.949 --> 01:26:00.689
at the end of the runway, which when the plane's

01:26:00.689 --> 01:26:02.590
wheels hit, it slowed it, prevented reaching

01:26:02.590 --> 01:26:05.390
takeoff speed, but also prevented, obviously,

01:26:05.590 --> 01:26:08.409
they were over a safe speed to stop. Just look

01:26:08.409 --> 01:26:11.409
at the photos of the weather conditions and ask

01:26:11.409 --> 01:26:14.270
yourself, would you try and take off a commercial

01:26:14.270 --> 01:26:17.989
airliner in those conditions? The answer is just

01:26:17.989 --> 01:26:22.250
no. So the initial investigations blamed the...

01:26:22.560 --> 01:26:24.600
Captain James Fane, I'm not saying he's not to

01:26:24.600 --> 01:26:27.600
blame for this in any way, but it wasn't his

01:26:27.600 --> 01:26:29.260
fault entirely. He was originally blamed for

01:26:29.260 --> 01:26:32.000
failing to de -ice the wings. But a later inquiry

01:26:32.000 --> 01:26:35.659
cleared Fane, concluding the crash was due to

01:26:35.659 --> 01:26:38.260
runway slush, which it should have been the air

01:26:38.260 --> 01:26:40.520
traffic controllers who reported that. I was

01:26:40.520 --> 01:26:41.779
going to say, air traffic controllers decide

01:26:41.779 --> 01:26:44.500
who takes off and who doesn't, don't they? Exactly,

01:26:44.619 --> 01:26:48.060
yeah. And a captain could make a decision, but

01:26:48.060 --> 01:26:51.340
maybe I was harsh, attributing some blame to

01:26:51.340 --> 01:26:53.840
him, but ultimately he's in charge of those on

01:26:53.840 --> 01:26:56.340
board. I'm sure some of his judgment was contributory,

01:26:56.399 --> 01:26:58.180
like maybe attempting it a second and a third

01:26:58.180 --> 01:27:04.840
time, but people don't have to be culpable to

01:27:04.840 --> 01:27:11.680
acknowledge that something went wrong. Survivors

01:27:11.680 --> 01:27:15.479
included. Matt Busby, who was severely injured,

01:27:15.619 --> 01:27:18.920
but later went on to rebuild the team. Bill Fuchs

01:27:18.920 --> 01:27:21.739
and Bobby Charlton were also survivors of that.

01:27:22.479 --> 01:27:24.439
Unfortunately, many, many players lost their

01:27:24.439 --> 01:27:26.420
lives, the most notable of which being Duncan

01:27:26.420 --> 01:27:33.039
Edwards, who survived the crash, but died a few

01:27:33.039 --> 01:27:36.800
weeks later. Oh, a few days later, later anyway.

01:27:36.960 --> 01:27:40.340
Two weeks later, 15 days. Was it two weeks? Yeah,

01:27:40.399 --> 01:27:44.170
thank you. Obviously superlatives are easy to

01:27:44.170 --> 01:27:46.310
come by when someone has lost their lives especially

01:27:46.310 --> 01:27:50.069
in tragic circumstances but the consensus is

01:27:50.069 --> 01:27:52.609
and I think this is a fair consensus from the

01:27:52.609 --> 01:27:54.850
depth and the range it comes from that Duncan

01:27:54.850 --> 01:27:56.430
Edwards would have been one of the greatest English

01:27:56.430 --> 01:27:59.090
players of all time had he lived long enough

01:27:59.090 --> 01:28:03.930
to be so. Was he 21 when he died? 21 and he had

01:28:03.930 --> 01:28:06.949
already played 151 times for Manchester United

01:28:06.949 --> 01:28:13.989
and scored 20 goals. Yeah. There is a consensus

01:28:13.989 --> 01:28:17.510
that thinks as great as Bobby Moore was, as great

01:28:17.510 --> 01:28:20.109
a captain as he was, had Duncan Edwards been

01:28:20.109 --> 01:28:22.949
alive in 1966, it would have been him captaining

01:28:22.949 --> 01:28:26.069
that England team that won the World Cup. I'm

01:28:26.069 --> 01:28:28.329
sure his presence would have only strengthened

01:28:28.329 --> 01:28:32.029
that team. He would have been 31, so that makes

01:28:32.029 --> 01:28:36.180
sense. And again, if you want some... context

01:28:36.180 --> 01:28:38.800
of the superlatives or you know what might have

01:28:38.800 --> 01:28:41.600
been he had already got 18 caps for England and

01:28:41.600 --> 01:28:45.699
scored five times yeah yeah playing seven and

01:28:45.699 --> 01:28:50.300
a half sorry yeah yeah Manchester United obviously

01:28:50.300 --> 01:28:54.600
with a severely weakened team lost the semi -final

01:28:54.600 --> 01:28:57.020
I think that one was the one to Real Madrid but

01:28:57.020 --> 01:29:01.680
ten years later Matt Busby rebuilt that team

01:29:01.680 --> 01:29:04.279
and rebuilt the team into one of the best teams

01:29:04.279 --> 01:29:07.640
in England 10 years later with a new generation

01:29:07.640 --> 01:29:10.119
of talent but including survivors Bill Foulkes

01:29:10.119 --> 01:29:11.920
and Bobby Charlton at the heart of that team

01:29:11.920 --> 01:29:16.260
Manchester United at Wembley Stadium they played

01:29:16.260 --> 01:29:21.539
Benfica and they won the European Cup for the

01:29:21.539 --> 01:29:23.060
first time in the history the first English club

01:29:23.060 --> 01:29:25.739
to win it Celtic had won it the year before being

01:29:25.739 --> 01:29:27.649
the first British club to win it but Manchester

01:29:27.649 --> 01:29:29.390
United in 1968 were the first English club to

01:29:29.390 --> 01:29:33.250
win it, winning 4 -1 against Benfica in their

01:29:33.250 --> 01:29:35.609
famous blue kit and bringing home the trophy.

01:29:36.050 --> 01:29:40.510
So Matt Busby is a legend. That team, the recovery

01:29:40.510 --> 01:29:43.229
afterwards, I hope that's a happy story for us

01:29:43.229 --> 01:29:46.369
to probably finish on at this point, but obviously

01:29:46.369 --> 01:29:49.510
it's based on a tragedy. I'm skimming through

01:29:49.510 --> 01:29:51.550
a lot of it because their success even before

01:29:51.550 --> 01:29:54.399
that. how quickly they were able to bounce back

01:29:54.399 --> 01:29:56.760
to be. I think they finished runners -up in the

01:29:56.760 --> 01:29:59.319
league in 1959 is how quickly they bounced back.

01:29:59.680 --> 01:30:01.560
I think Wolves might have won it, but I think

01:30:01.560 --> 01:30:04.260
United finished second, which is obviously hugely

01:30:04.260 --> 01:30:08.000
impressive and has a lot to do with their manager

01:30:08.000 --> 01:30:11.720
and the leadership in that team. So it is, as

01:30:11.720 --> 01:30:14.359
much as Manchester United became sort of the

01:30:14.359 --> 01:30:18.180
bane in our existence when we were young because

01:30:18.180 --> 01:30:19.939
of how good they were under Sir Alex Ferguson,

01:30:20.060 --> 01:30:23.909
who I respect more. at my age now than I did

01:30:23.909 --> 01:30:26.449
perhaps when I was 13 years old and watching

01:30:26.449 --> 01:30:29.109
United win their sixth championship in seven

01:30:29.109 --> 01:30:31.989
years or whatever it was at that point give or

01:30:31.989 --> 01:30:37.470
take maybe fifth in seven but yeah yeah Busby

01:30:37.470 --> 01:30:40.890
was a legend and that team it's a hell of a story

01:30:40.890 --> 01:30:43.770
he convinced convince Bobby Charlton to come

01:30:43.770 --> 01:30:45.229
back to play because I think Bobby Charlton nearly

01:30:45.229 --> 01:30:48.430
retired off the back of the Munich air disaster.

01:30:49.149 --> 01:30:51.869
Well, I don't blame him, yeah. And yeah, I think,

01:30:51.890 --> 01:30:54.369
I might be, I might be, there might be slightly

01:30:54.369 --> 01:30:59.689
dramatized, you know, in time, but I think Bobby

01:30:59.689 --> 01:31:01.390
Charlton obviously found that very difficult,

01:31:01.550 --> 01:31:04.369
understandably. And... Yeah, his friends have

01:31:04.369 --> 01:31:07.029
died. Yeah, yeah. Simple as that. And Busby,

01:31:07.090 --> 01:31:10.170
I think. Let alone the PTSD involved. Well, right.

01:31:12.359 --> 01:31:17.460
And Survivor's Guilt. Is attributed with having

01:31:17.460 --> 01:31:20.260
convinced him to come back to play for United.

01:31:20.899 --> 01:31:25.079
I really doubted our ability to pivot from Heysel

01:31:25.079 --> 01:31:29.060
to something positive. But you transition from

01:31:29.060 --> 01:31:34.199
one disaster to the other. And then seamlessly

01:31:34.199 --> 01:31:38.739
articulated how it at least had a... a happy

01:31:38.739 --> 01:31:44.060
ending in some ways if a plane crash can. Yeah,

01:31:44.100 --> 01:31:45.960
I mean, we've covered a lot here. I wondered

01:31:45.960 --> 01:31:51.199
if just before we go, we had any personal favorites

01:31:51.199 --> 01:31:58.720
for finals or goals? I have one. Yeah? This may

01:31:58.720 --> 01:32:00.779
shock you to know what my favorite final of all

01:32:00.779 --> 01:32:03.500
time is. Can I have a wild guess? Have a wild

01:32:03.500 --> 01:32:07.989
guess. Istanbul? So Liverpool will find themselves

01:32:07.989 --> 01:32:10.350
3 -0 down at half -time, for those of you who

01:32:10.350 --> 01:32:12.409
don't know, and I'm sure many of you do, against

01:32:12.409 --> 01:32:15.630
just an incredible AC Milan team. This is a team

01:32:15.630 --> 01:32:19.750
of... The back four alone, like Maldini, Yapstam,

01:32:19.869 --> 01:32:24.050
Nesta, Cafu as a back four, is obscene. I don't

01:32:24.050 --> 01:32:27.029
think you can name a better... Other than the

01:32:27.029 --> 01:32:29.350
early 90s AC Milan team, which also had Maldini

01:32:29.350 --> 01:32:34.449
in it, such was his longevity. Yeah. Seedorf.

01:32:34.510 --> 01:32:40.590
Seedorf, yeah. Kakka. Kakka. Shevchenko. Shevchenko.

01:32:40.729 --> 01:32:43.489
Inzaghi. Crespo. Did they have Inzaghi at that

01:32:43.489 --> 01:32:46.149
point? Maybe on the bench? Did they have Inzaghi?

01:32:46.289 --> 01:32:48.710
They definitely had Inzaghi in 2007 because he

01:32:48.710 --> 01:32:50.869
scored twice. Who was coach? Ancelotti. It's

01:32:50.869 --> 01:32:53.229
just... Yeah, Ancelotti. It was a ridiculous

01:32:53.229 --> 01:32:55.770
team. Found themselves 3 -0 up at half -time

01:32:55.770 --> 01:32:57.850
and Liverpool dead and buried. I didn't watch

01:32:57.850 --> 01:33:00.270
the first half. No. Because if you remember,

01:33:00.489 --> 01:33:05.880
we were... We didn't get out. school until late

01:33:05.880 --> 01:33:11.479
for various reasons and the second half of that

01:33:11.479 --> 01:33:13.739
game I just watched because I literally made

01:33:13.739 --> 01:33:16.220
myself watch it because I was like well we might

01:33:16.220 --> 01:33:18.840
never be here again and Liverpool scored three

01:33:18.840 --> 01:33:21.319
goals in six minutes Steven Gerrard, Vladimir

01:33:21.319 --> 01:33:24.460
Smita and then Jebby Alonso penalty rebound and

01:33:24.460 --> 01:33:29.119
by 60th minute it was 3 -3 absolutely mad extra

01:33:29.119 --> 01:33:31.460
time period including a crazy double save by

01:33:31.460 --> 01:33:34.000
Jesse Dudek and then a slightly dodgy penalty

01:33:34.000 --> 01:33:35.880
shootout win because Dudek was off his line a

01:33:35.880 --> 01:33:38.579
couple of times but never mind I think the winning

01:33:38.579 --> 01:33:41.380
penalty save is basically a six yard box by the

01:33:41.380 --> 01:33:44.739
time he saves it Perlo's one was the worst he

01:33:44.739 --> 01:33:47.420
literally was but regardless if it doesn't get

01:33:47.420 --> 01:33:50.760
blown up it's not a foul so yeah Liverpool won

01:33:50.760 --> 01:33:53.680
on penalties and I literally was bouncing off

01:33:53.680 --> 01:33:55.600
the walls with joy it was a wonderful moment

01:33:55.600 --> 01:34:00.319
for me age I was 17 at the time. Yeah, no, that

01:34:00.319 --> 01:34:03.140
was... I nearly got through the whole episode

01:34:03.140 --> 01:34:05.239
without mentioning that, so thank you, Ben. You're

01:34:05.239 --> 01:34:08.819
welcome. How about yourself? Because my team's

01:34:08.819 --> 01:34:10.199
never won it. You can burst my bubble if you

01:34:10.199 --> 01:34:13.479
want by talking about Gareth Bale. No, so we're

01:34:13.479 --> 01:34:15.779
just going to get on to two goals very briefly,

01:34:15.859 --> 01:34:19.619
but before we do, just... All of my favorite

01:34:19.619 --> 01:34:22.180
finals, even though I've not been happy about

01:34:22.180 --> 01:34:24.359
necessarily the winners of the majority of them,

01:34:24.439 --> 01:34:28.680
have predominantly been English clubs because

01:34:28.680 --> 01:34:30.520
I think they just have been the best finals in

01:34:30.520 --> 01:34:33.840
the Champions League era. So grudgingly, United,

01:34:34.199 --> 01:34:37.800
98, 99, it was remarkable stuff. Incredible.

01:34:38.340 --> 01:34:41.600
Like you, I did not appreciate that at the time,

01:34:41.619 --> 01:34:44.479
but I do now. Absolutely insane. I think this

01:34:44.479 --> 01:34:47.350
is it. So do you want to explain it? Oh, yeah.

01:34:47.390 --> 01:34:50.409
Bayern Munich took the lead in the fifth minute

01:34:50.409 --> 01:34:53.529
or something, dominated the entire game, were

01:34:53.529 --> 01:34:56.430
just going to win. Sheringham came on in the

01:34:56.430 --> 01:34:59.130
70th minute, Solskjaer came on somewhere in the

01:34:59.130 --> 01:35:03.069
late 80s, I think, or early 80th minute. And

01:35:03.069 --> 01:35:06.329
then basically just fucking pandemonium and United

01:35:06.329 --> 01:35:09.930
scored two goals in stoppage time to win. to

01:35:09.930 --> 01:35:11.970
win it and come back 2 -1. First one being from

01:35:11.970 --> 01:35:14.510
Sheringham with a flick on at a corner and then

01:35:14.510 --> 01:35:16.590
Sheringham again with a flick on at a corner

01:35:16.590 --> 01:35:18.789
but with Solskjaer at the back post just stabbing

01:35:18.789 --> 01:35:20.329
a foot out and lifting it into the roof of the

01:35:20.329 --> 01:35:23.810
net and yeah, or as they say, the rest is history

01:35:23.810 --> 01:35:27.189
and like that, the scenes. And they did that

01:35:27.189 --> 01:35:29.510
without Rukin as well because he got suspended

01:35:29.510 --> 01:35:32.050
in the semis. So yeah, yeah. It was a shock.

01:35:32.350 --> 01:35:35.270
Insane, insane final. And one of my favourite.

01:35:35.710 --> 01:35:37.350
Favorite football quote of all time, which I

01:35:37.350 --> 01:35:38.829
didn't appreciate at the time, but I do now,

01:35:38.930 --> 01:35:40.729
from Sir Alex Ferguson after that, which was

01:35:40.729 --> 01:35:43.710
football, bloody hell. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know.

01:35:44.890 --> 01:35:46.449
And then I would have picked Liverpool, but I

01:35:46.449 --> 01:35:49.250
didn't need to because I knew you would. I also

01:35:49.250 --> 01:35:52.329
really enjoyed the 2007 -2008 All -English final,

01:35:52.510 --> 01:35:54.949
which was the first All -English final. And the

01:35:54.949 --> 01:35:56.289
Terry slip, just because it was... John Terry

01:35:56.289 --> 01:35:59.529
didn't. Yeah, because it was funny. Couldn't

01:35:59.529 --> 01:36:01.170
happen to a nicer man. It was actually quite

01:36:01.170 --> 01:36:03.329
a good final as well. I've only finished 1 -1,

01:36:03.390 --> 01:36:06.689
I think, but... But yeah, went to penalties.

01:36:07.170 --> 01:36:10.029
Terry had a chance to win it, slipped as it started

01:36:10.029 --> 01:36:14.069
raining. And then Anelka missed and United won

01:36:14.069 --> 01:36:17.710
their second Champions League. Obviously, I think

01:36:17.710 --> 01:36:22.289
it's a third European Cup overall. But yeah,

01:36:22.390 --> 01:36:24.569
that wasn't the only all -English final. I was

01:36:24.569 --> 01:36:26.449
surprised by how many there had been, actually.

01:36:26.590 --> 01:36:29.829
Like Liverpool, Spurs, 18 -19, 20 -21, Chelsea

01:36:29.829 --> 01:36:36.409
City as well. Yeah. I also really enjoyed Chelsea's

01:36:36.409 --> 01:36:38.729
one at Bayern, just because it was in Bayern's

01:36:38.729 --> 01:36:43.489
backyard. Didier Drogba with a big header. Yeah,

01:36:43.670 --> 01:36:46.210
I have a big soft spot for Drogba, even though

01:36:46.210 --> 01:36:49.050
I didn't really like Chelsea all that much at

01:36:49.050 --> 01:36:51.329
the time. I can't not like Drogba. Yeah, it was.

01:36:51.649 --> 01:36:53.489
Great player. I mean, I'm whinging about the

01:36:53.489 --> 01:36:56.329
oligarchy era, and this is the epitome of that.

01:36:57.689 --> 01:37:01.930
But nonetheless, Bayern were at home, and Bayern

01:37:01.930 --> 01:37:04.899
were great. took the lead in like the 83rd minute

01:37:04.899 --> 01:37:07.159
or something. And everyone thought that was it.

01:37:07.279 --> 01:37:10.100
And then Drogba scored a powering header from

01:37:10.100 --> 01:37:13.399
a corner right at the end. And then it went to

01:37:13.399 --> 01:37:16.279
penalties. But the only other one before we get

01:37:16.279 --> 01:37:17.979
into the goals, because I'm chomping at the pit

01:37:17.979 --> 01:37:21.720
to mention the goals. Like the other recent final

01:37:21.720 --> 01:37:23.760
that was outside of English clubs is that Real

01:37:23.760 --> 01:37:27.119
Madrid versus Atletico won in 2013, 2014. And

01:37:27.119 --> 01:37:30.979
Ramos equalized in the 93rd minute. And then...

01:37:31.919 --> 01:37:39.279
Ramos. Yeah, and then Real just went stratospheric

01:37:39.279 --> 01:37:42.880
in extra time and won 4 -1 in the end. Yeah,

01:37:42.960 --> 01:37:45.060
Gareth Bale scoring a header, I remember that.

01:37:45.220 --> 01:37:48.020
Yeah, so this is the thing. Not his last Champions

01:37:48.020 --> 01:37:51.520
League final goal. No, and shall we, just briefly?

01:37:52.880 --> 01:37:54.279
There's been two Champions League goals. Let's

01:37:54.279 --> 01:37:56.619
start with 2001 because I know you're going to

01:37:56.619 --> 01:37:59.340
mention 2001 as well. There are only two. 2002,

01:37:59.640 --> 01:38:01.960
sorry. Yeah, there's only two goals that I wanted

01:38:01.960 --> 01:38:04.119
to mention because I don't really care about

01:38:04.119 --> 01:38:06.739
goals. Like, other than Arsenal goals, I don't

01:38:06.739 --> 01:38:10.119
really care about goals in the rest of the stages

01:38:10.119 --> 01:38:11.859
of the tournament. Obviously, I could bang on

01:38:11.859 --> 01:38:15.180
about Henry in the Bernabeu, in the San Siro,

01:38:15.340 --> 01:38:17.020
you know, everywhere because the man's a king.

01:38:17.380 --> 01:38:22.829
But Zinedine Zidane. Bay of Leverkusen. Thing

01:38:22.829 --> 01:38:26.649
of beauty. Thing of absolute beauty. It's insane.

01:38:27.229 --> 01:38:31.970
It's not even a good cross. No. Bounce straight

01:38:31.970 --> 01:38:34.029
up in the air. Carlos, was it? Oh no, it was

01:38:34.029 --> 01:38:35.529
the hook straight up in the air. Yeah, yeah.

01:38:35.729 --> 01:38:39.310
And then... Had an age to watch it down onto

01:38:39.310 --> 01:38:41.949
his weaker foot. And he just... I don't even

01:38:41.949 --> 01:38:43.470
know how to explain it. It's almost like... It's

01:38:43.470 --> 01:38:47.319
like a martial arts move. It's a work of art.

01:38:47.420 --> 01:38:49.279
You could hang it in the Louvre, honestly. The

01:38:49.279 --> 01:38:53.720
way the leg comes round, just dead straight.

01:38:54.399 --> 01:38:58.340
Bang. It's hard to put... So anyone younger who

01:38:58.340 --> 01:39:00.060
didn't see Zidane play in his time, it's hard

01:39:00.060 --> 01:39:02.039
to put into context how much our generation here

01:39:02.039 --> 01:39:04.760
worship him and how much we revere him. I guess

01:39:04.760 --> 01:39:06.539
it's similar to Messi and Ronaldo in a sense,

01:39:06.600 --> 01:39:10.340
but a bit less in your face as it tends to be

01:39:10.340 --> 01:39:15.420
nowadays. Yeah, more of a... Oh, like how would

01:39:15.420 --> 01:39:17.579
you explain him? He's a flawed genius, which

01:39:17.579 --> 01:39:20.560
therefore immediately endears him to you and

01:39:20.560 --> 01:39:25.840
I. But yeah, like a classier operator, more graceful,

01:39:25.960 --> 01:39:31.500
more effortless, I would say. He's a magician.

01:39:31.800 --> 01:39:36.800
Yeah. Anyway. That goal. You could hear that

01:39:36.800 --> 01:39:38.539
in our voices there momentarily, couldn't you?

01:39:40.020 --> 01:39:43.720
If you haven't seen that goal, just watch. 2002

01:39:43.720 --> 01:39:46.800
Champions League final Zidane goal versus Bayer

01:39:46.800 --> 01:39:50.039
Leverkusen it was at Hampden Park in Glasgow

01:39:50.039 --> 01:39:53.500
a thing of beauty right on the cusp of half time

01:39:53.500 --> 01:39:57.279
bang yeah such a good goal and then the other

01:39:57.279 --> 01:39:59.420
one is Bale just because I think this is the

01:39:59.420 --> 01:40:03.600
best goal that's ever been scored possibly like

01:40:03.600 --> 01:40:06.100
incredibly didn't win the Puskas award that year

01:40:06.100 --> 01:40:07.840
which is an award given to the best goal of the

01:40:07.840 --> 01:40:10.300
season which is incredible because the goal that

01:40:10.300 --> 01:40:12.739
won it and I love Mo Salah Did not deserve to

01:40:12.739 --> 01:40:17.359
win that. It should have been Bale. Just a bicycle

01:40:17.359 --> 01:40:21.819
kick. It was a game with two goals, one of which

01:40:21.819 --> 01:40:23.840
scored by Bale, one scored by Benzema, which

01:40:23.840 --> 01:40:26.600
were just horrendous goalkeeping errors. Unforgivable

01:40:26.600 --> 01:40:28.600
goalkeeping errors, other than the fact that

01:40:28.600 --> 01:40:30.279
he was probably concussed at the time, Karius.

01:40:31.180 --> 01:40:35.819
I feel sorry for Karius. He was brilliant at

01:40:35.819 --> 01:40:37.739
times that season, but those were two horrible,

01:40:37.840 --> 01:40:40.359
horrible, horrible errors. But then the other

01:40:40.359 --> 01:40:44.189
goal. Bale's goal was... Worthy of winning anything.

01:40:45.050 --> 01:40:47.470
Anything. I don't care what you call the tournament.

01:40:47.529 --> 01:40:50.329
I don't care the prestige you give it. If this

01:40:50.329 --> 01:40:54.750
goal is scored, it should be the winner. It's

01:40:54.750 --> 01:40:57.310
a bicycle kick in the Champions League final.

01:40:57.470 --> 01:40:59.930
And again, it's not even a good cross. It's a

01:40:59.930 --> 01:41:02.310
better cross than the Zidane one, but it's behind

01:41:02.310 --> 01:41:05.609
him. It's fairly flat. It's definitely not a

01:41:05.609 --> 01:41:07.170
cross that you look at and think, oh, I'll just

01:41:07.170 --> 01:41:11.180
bicycle kick that into the top corner. It is

01:41:11.180 --> 01:41:18.100
an absurd goal. Absurd. Yeah, and call this a

01:41:18.100 --> 01:41:20.039
bit of English exceptionalism that Bale often

01:41:20.039 --> 01:41:22.119
isn't called this as much as he should be, but

01:41:22.119 --> 01:41:24.380
in my humble opinion, Gareth Bale is the greatest

01:41:24.380 --> 01:41:27.720
British player of all time. Agreed. Perhaps didn't

01:41:27.720 --> 01:41:30.020
take advantage of his ability as much as he did,

01:41:30.119 --> 01:41:33.779
but it's ridiculous. The amount of Champions

01:41:33.779 --> 01:41:35.500
Leagues he won, the goals he scored in the finals,

01:41:35.560 --> 01:41:36.939
the amount of goals he scored for Real Madrid

01:41:36.939 --> 01:41:40.119
and for Spurs. Yeah, he's... He's incredible.

01:41:40.239 --> 01:41:42.039
And what he did for Wales as well. He dragged

01:41:42.039 --> 01:41:44.760
Wales to a European Championship semi -final.

01:41:44.939 --> 01:41:47.840
That is ludicrous. A tiny, tiny principality

01:41:47.840 --> 01:41:51.420
of just a few million people. It's incredible,

01:41:51.659 --> 01:41:54.600
honestly. What a player. He is incredible. I

01:41:54.600 --> 01:41:56.880
think he's played four Champions Leagues and

01:41:56.880 --> 01:42:00.640
I think he's scored in three of the finals. And

01:42:00.640 --> 01:42:01.859
it's not even his favourite sport, football,

01:42:02.060 --> 01:42:05.460
which is incredible. Wales, golf, Madrid, in

01:42:05.460 --> 01:42:10.199
that order. Anyway, I think we need to bring

01:42:10.199 --> 01:42:12.100
this to a close because we are going long, but

01:42:12.100 --> 01:42:14.579
it's been a good chat. It has been very fun.

01:42:15.479 --> 01:42:18.079
For all our whinging, the best thing about the

01:42:18.079 --> 01:42:20.960
Champions League is that it pits the best players

01:42:20.960 --> 01:42:23.399
against the best players and the quality of the

01:42:23.399 --> 01:42:26.119
games never disappoints. It's just a shame that

01:42:26.119 --> 01:42:29.779
it's become so elitism. However, elitist, sorry.

01:42:29.899 --> 01:42:35.359
If you tune in, then you'll get to... You'll

01:42:35.359 --> 01:42:37.520
get to watch PSG versus Inter Milan and support

01:42:37.520 --> 01:42:39.319
Inter Milan because of all the reasons we've

01:42:39.319 --> 01:42:42.199
said. Hopefully we've persuaded you. I mean,

01:42:42.220 --> 01:42:43.640
we haven't had any French listeners yet. We've

01:42:43.640 --> 01:42:45.300
had a lot of listeners from around Europe, but

01:42:45.300 --> 01:42:47.600
so far none from France. So I think we can get

01:42:47.600 --> 01:42:53.439
away with saying that for now. And I guess, where

01:42:53.439 --> 01:42:57.420
are we going next week? You can watch the 10th.

01:42:57.739 --> 01:43:00.319
Sorry, very quickly. Sorry, Jack, but I know

01:43:00.319 --> 01:43:04.529
I asked you there. You can watch Champions League

01:43:04.529 --> 01:43:08.470
everywhere. Literally everywhere. It's on YouTube,

01:43:08.609 --> 01:43:10.989
isn't it? I don't know. Am I wrong in saying

01:43:10.989 --> 01:43:14.270
that? Anyway, regardless, just Google it. I don't

01:43:14.270 --> 01:43:16.569
know why we say this. Google's a thing. Next

01:43:16.569 --> 01:43:20.829
week, we are at the NBA finals, so basketball,

01:43:21.029 --> 01:43:24.869
which is, honestly, we're going to do our best,

01:43:24.909 --> 01:43:28.050
but it's not our... Of all the American sports,

01:43:28.189 --> 01:43:31.310
it is comfortably the one that I am least knowledgeable

01:43:31.310 --> 01:43:35.510
on. that I frankly enjoy the least unless it's

01:43:35.510 --> 01:43:38.829
a tight game late on where it frankly becomes

01:43:38.829 --> 01:43:41.789
the best sport that maybe even in the world or

01:43:41.789 --> 01:43:44.149
one of the best sports can be incredible. But

01:43:44.149 --> 01:43:47.729
nevertheless, the NBA finals is what we're previewing

01:43:47.729 --> 01:43:50.470
next week. Awesome. Well, I'm looking forward

01:43:50.470 --> 01:43:51.850
to that mainly because it gives me an excuse

01:43:51.850 --> 01:43:57.590
to talk about MJ. Yeah. Which is fair. Yeah.

01:43:57.710 --> 01:44:00.229
Very interesting man. He is. Another floor genius.

01:44:00.840 --> 01:44:03.520
That will be a lot of fun. We will do our best.

01:44:03.619 --> 01:44:05.699
We've done our best with ice hockey, so I'm sure

01:44:05.699 --> 01:44:09.319
we can give you something that will hopefully

01:44:09.319 --> 01:44:13.859
keep you engaged. Until then, then. Yeah. Until

01:44:13.859 --> 01:44:16.739
then. Ciao. Thanks for the chat. Au revoir. I'll

01:44:16.739 --> 01:44:19.699
see you later. Ciao. Au revoir. I see what you're

01:44:19.699 --> 01:44:23.560
doing. Clever. Yeah. See you in a bit then, mate.

01:44:23.640 --> 01:44:36.199
Tschüss. Because it's in Germany. Bye. Bye. Thank

01:44:36.199 --> 01:44:38.039
you again for listening to and supporting the

01:44:38.039 --> 01:44:40.439
Sporting Almanac podcast. Can't say that enough.

01:44:40.699 --> 01:44:42.579
If you enjoyed it, give us a like, subscribe,

01:44:42.859 --> 01:44:44.640
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01:44:44.640 --> 01:44:46.699
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01:44:46.699 --> 01:44:49.239
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01:44:49.239 --> 01:44:51.039
tell your friends if you enjoyed it. It means

01:44:51.039 --> 01:44:52.979
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01:44:52.979 --> 01:44:54.720
Oh Yeah by Hermione Productions. You can find

01:44:54.720 --> 01:44:56.560
us on Bluesky at the Sporting Almanac or drop

01:44:56.560 --> 01:44:58.920
us an email at thesportingalmanacpodcast at gmail

01:44:58.920 --> 01:45:01.779
.com. We'll see you next week for the NBA Finals.

01:45:01.819 --> 01:45:04.159
And until then, stay curious. Sport is nothing

01:45:04.159 --> 01:45:05.920
without the stories that make it. Goodbye.