Once upon a time, on fields of prim and proper
privilege, a people's game was bound in laws
and a silver cup was cast for gentlemen. But
in factory towns beneath smoky skies, men with
calloused hands and muddy boots dared to dream
that this could be their fairy tale, and with
Olympic toil they made the cup their own. When
the war drums beat, the story changed. Fields
stood silent, factories left still, and so Britain's
daughters laced their boots, filling the void,
filling seats as well. They danced in bonnets
and heavy boots, thrilling crowds and gathering
charity gold, but big bad men with suits and
champagne flutes sent them off to fifty winters
out in the cold. With daughters sidelined, sons
arose, under Wembley Tower's bluebird sang. Wizards
weaved, saints and black cats soared, and cannons
roared a fourteen-gun salute. The fairy tale
dreams lived on for the sons, because for every
cobbler bested, there were lilywhite screamers
and amber invasions, Spireites in dreamland
and unstoppable imps. Dark days too, pain, death
and blame, and never-ending fights for justice.
The people, together, reminding the big bad men
to never forget who this game belongs to. Slowly
and surely, the daughters built back. No white
knight needed to save this story. Just lioness
roars, a century in the making. Tens of thousands
once more crowning queens in glory. Now under
equal blue skies, the final call to all. Peasants,
princesses, dreamers and giant slayers are in
this fabled land of football fairy tale. No result
is beyond imagination. This is the Sporting Almanac
Podcast. afternoon jack afternoon ben how are
you today yeah i'm good thank you um i am buzzing
for this week's episode i'm not gonna lie to
you uh this is our first love boyhood dreams
you know our wheelhouse your wheelhouse specifically
in terms of the history of it all uh but yeah
this is this is one of the great the great sporting
weeks all the criticism about the competition's
not like what it used to be It's lost its importance,
or whatever else people say. Nonsense. As a kid,
if I was dreaming about football, I was dreaming
about lifting the FA Cup at Wembley. Getting
given the FA Cup and lifting it. Yeah, mate.
The FA Cup, that's where we are, if anybody hasn't
already read between the lines. We're going to
Wembley. The famous Wembley. The Arch. What was
the Towers previously, but now the Arch. objectively
a great sporting weekend and subjectively for
us still a great sporting weekend our favorite
arguably well we'll see we'll see on saturday
uh saturday evening how great it is could be
very great could be very very great um should
we start there should we start with the first
well with this year's fa cup just to put it into
context yeah so this year's fa cup final is on
saturday i believe it's a 4 30 kickoff although
they can't bloody make their minds up what time
it kicks off. But it's Crystal Palace versus
Manchester City. All the neutrals are supporting
Crystal Palace. Anyone who's a Man City fan will
probably be supporting Man City, as you'd expect,
but we'll forgive them for that this weekend.
I like an underdog reaching the final. I say
an underdog. Palace are a well -established Premier
League team. They're a good team. They're solidly
mid -table, but they've never won anything. Nope.
Never won anything. So when we say underdog,
let's put that into proper context for people.
Crystal Palace Football Club have never won any
trophies. Ever. And they are in the final of
the FA Cup. There's been no trophy worth winning
in world football that Manchester City haven't
won in the past five years. Let alone in the
rest of their history. And they've done it in
such a romantic way. Bankrolled by... Rags to
riches. By a Middle Eastern state. It's just
what football was made for. Oh, sarcasm. Yeah.
Well, it's very apt, actually, that that is the
matchup for this FA Cup final, in my opinion,
and probably yours too, because it really is
kind of exactly what makes everybody fall in
love with the FA Cup, because it is synonymous
with giant killings and things like that, underdog
stories, and we're going to talk about some of
them. All the way to the final, yeah. Yeah, exactly.
And Palace going up against a team that's never
won anything before, that has a proud history,
is a well -established Premier League club now,
has some very good players in its own right,
but a club that's never won anything in its history
going up against a superpower that's been bankrolled
to all the success it could possibly wish for
in the last 10 years. Yeah, won two FA Cups in
that time as well, and that's probably the competition
it's been least successful in. relatively speaking
other than champions league which they've only
won once but apart from that yeah four four premier
leagues in a row until this season yeah they
are a dominant force in english football and
crystal palace are the plucky underdogs in this
case although they've got some very good players
so i'm looking forward to it it'll be good it
will be very good and um and the women's fa cup
final the following day yeah uh the women's fa
cup final is on sunday And that is Chelsea versus
Manchester United. And that is at 1 .30 on Sunday
for some reason. And not a dissimilar matchup.
I mean, Manchester United are a huge footballing
institution on the men's side of things. They
have a good women's team, but not a great women's
team. And Chelsea are a women's juggernaut. Yes.
I mean, it's not quite the same because Manchester
United are also the defending champions. But
Chelsea have won multiple FA Cups. I need to
get my stats out, really, but I think they've
won three in a row recently. So, yeah, they are
the single dominant force. Yeah, Chelsea are
all conquering at the moment. Man United are
good, that's the thing. They are good, but they
are certainly going into this as the underdogs,
even if they are the holding favourite. All we're
saying is if you're neutral in picking a team,
though, it wouldn't always be something we'd
encourage. supporting Manchester United I think
is okay this year just as it was when they were
playing Man City last year and I kept telling
myself that over and over yeah but yeah Chelsea
won three in a row and Manchester United won
last season so these two teams in particular
have both at least one of them have been in the
past four finals and Chelsea Manchester United
was in fact the final two years ago as well Chelsea
being successful on that day so either way be
a good game It will be. And it's cool that they're
being played on the same weekend. It hasn't always
been the case. Very much not. As I'll get into,
the Women's FA Cup's only been at Wembley for
not too many years. I think, I want to say 2015
was the first one. Yep, which unsurprisingly
Chelsea won. As I'll also get into, the attendances,
they're really starting to match the men's final
attendances now. 76 ,000 there last year, 77
,000 there the year before. Massive attendances
in terms of women's club football. Yeah, it's
cool. It's definitely growing exponentially and
long may that continue. Right, I mean, I guess
the challenge for this episode, Jack, is going
to be transmitting our enthusiasm for this tournament,
this event, to anyone who cares to listen. Without
going to two hours again. Yeah, exactly. This
is obviously a subject that me and you are a
bit more familiar with compared to, say, our
ice hockey episode or even some of the horse
racing ones. So I think the best place to start
is at the beginning, as usual. In the beginning.
And you take the lead on this because you are
our FA Cup historian and you can probably do
this more succinctly than I can and with more
panache and knowledge. I mean, you're setting
me up for a fall there, but I'll do my best.
I won't go through all the history of football,
but in the beginning, there was football played
as a popular sport by the masses, largely in
the countryside, largely before the Industrial
Revolution. You'd have whole villages. chasing
a blown up pig's bladder or something you know
across the entire village the goalpost will be
one street corner on one side and then maybe
a farmhouse or something on the other side several
miles in between very little rules probably quite
a lot of violence uh as tends to well as happened
with many sports or as happened with a lot of
recreation in the 19th century people lost their
recreation time because the industrial revolution
happened a lot of people moved to the cities
They were working very long hours, which was
gradually pared down. Gradually, they started
getting time back. Gradually, half days on Saturday
were the norm as opposed to just Sundays. Sundays,
they always had free, but ball games on Sundays,
church weren't into that. So once those half
Saturdays appeared, once hours in the working
week were limited, all of a sudden there was
a chance for some recreation. But the opportunity
had come that those sports, which they used to
play en masse back in the day, had been... stratified
into some rules and some codes and that was done
not in the working class streets of manchester
or preston or sheffield or anywhere else it was
done as most english invented sports were at
the english public schools at the um at the posh
schools sons of rich folk codifying these rules
or the masters of the houses codifying these
rules playing the sports in all their certain
way there was loads of different codes of football
depending on what school you went to And eventually
these were first codified into a single set of
laws in 1848. I've not even got this written
down. I'm such a nerd. Yeah, you are a nerd.
The Cambridge rules, that was. This is the thing,
isn't it? The overarching context is the Victorian
brothers and sisters who are famed for quite
a few poor segments of our history did give us
a couple of rather wonderful things. And one
of them, as you say, is sport generally most
sports were codified in the in the 19th century
uh and england's first love football yeah so
they were codified by the public schools but
as i'll come to they weren't popularized by them
so in 1863 um the football association founded
quite a lot of football clubs had already formed
uh the oldest and most famous of these being
sheffield football club which is the oldest football
club on the planet in in the meantime in order
to We get a semblance of structure and, more
importantly, a sort of control of the laws of
the game. The FA was founded. They put out their
first laws of the game. People in Sheffield actually
disagreed with those original laws. There was
already a bit of a North and South divide going
on there. But the important thing in terms of
this episode is in 1871, a one Charles W. Alcock
proposed the establishment of the FA Challenge
Cup to the Football Association. They accepted.
And in November of 1871, the first FA Cup tournament
began. 15 teams entered. Only 12 teams ended
up playing games. It was a bit shambolic at first.
They didn't quite get the sort of giving teams
a bye rule until a bit later. So you'd end up
with essentially everyone would play a first
round game. And then if you had an odd number
of teams, a couple of teams would get a bye.
Then everyone would play the next round. It was
an odd number of teams. It got to the point teams
were getting by through semifinals because there
was three teams left in the semifinal stage.
Even more shambolic than that. Queen's Park from
Scotland entered the first tournament. Sacrilege.
Some of the first few tournaments until the Scottish
FA said to them, we'd rather you didn't do this.
We'd rather you stayed and played here. But Queen's
Park actually got to the semifinals without playing
a game because everyone kept getting drawn away
to them and no one could afford to get up to
Scotland, up to Glasgow to play them. And then
they got drawn against, I won't say the Wanderers,
in the semifinals. and they went and played them
and it was a draw so then the replay was put
on for a few weeks later and queens park then
declined to play that because they couldn't afford
it so they dropped out without having lost the
game or conceded a goal after a nil -nil draw
actually i think queens park famously i don't
think they conceded a goal in any competitive
game for like the first four years of their existence
or something and still managed to not win the
fa cup first time around but i digress First
FA Cup final was on the 16th of March 1872. It
was the Wanderers versus the Royal Engineers
at Kennington Oval in London. A very famous cricket
ground nowadays. It is indeed. And it was 1 -0
by the Wanderers with the winning goal being
scored by one Morton Betts of the Wanderers who
was actually playing under the pseudonym A .H.
Checker because he was actually a bit of a ringer
and he didn't want his real identity given away.
That's so weird. Yeah, it was very limited. It
was basically a sense of pride or sort of like
courtesy, gentlemanliness, shall we say. Because
after all, these were all amateur teams. I was
going to say, it's very Sunday League. Yeah.
Playing a ringer. These were teams in the early
days largely made up of amateurs, largely made
up of former public school players who simply
put, did not need to be paid to play the game
because they were perfectly wealthy already.
either working good, respectable jobs, or more
likely, if they've been to the public schools,
living off daddy's money. So all was good there
for them. So the early FA Cup was dominated,
as I say, by amateur upper -class southern clubs,
such as the Old Etonians, who won three tournaments
in a row in the early days. This changed in the
1880s when... Firstly, Blackburn Rovers became
the first provincial club. I'll get into the
professionalism question later, but the first
provincial club, shall we say, to reach the FA
Cup final in 1882, unsuccessfully. But then Blackburn
Olympic reached the FA Cup final in 1883 and
played Old Etonians and were the first team from
outside of the southern old amateur system to
win it, becoming the first northern side to win
it in 1883. and was quickly followed up by Blackburn
Rovers winning it in 1884, 1885 and 1886. So
as you can imagine, the power had somewhat shifted
from the south to the north. That must make Blackburn
the only side to have ever won it three times
in a row. Other than Old Etonians. Yeah. No one
has since. Yeah, I was going to say. Arsenal,
I know for a fact, have made three finals in
a row, but we haven't won three in a row. No,
they were the first team to win three in a row.
They are the most recent team to win three in
a row. I do apologize. So they were a side suspected
but never proven to contain professionals when
they won it for the first time in 1884. And the
reason this was controversial is because in 1884,
another Northern team, another Northern team
who was still playing, just like Blackburn Rovers,
Preston North End, were expelled from the FA
Cup after admitting to paying players. Basically,
they got asked, are you paying players? They
said yes, but so is everyone else. And they got
kicked out, obviously. Blackburn Rovers, never
got proven. Was that the Preston North End Invincibles?
Not quite, but we're nearly there. Around the
same time, yeah, okay. Yeah, so, so yeah, Preston
North End got kicked out, Blackburn managed to
get away with it, but in 1885 anyway, I mean,
things were happening, there was basically shamaturism
as it was going on, people getting under the
table payments, boot money as they called it,
money left behind in their boots or being paid
discreetly or given expenses that were far and
above. what was happening and the the fa obviously
was made up of largely ex -public school boys
who detested this this we're going to get into
this a lot with all different sports this is
an age -old sort of arguments in english sport
between amateurs and professionalism generally
speaking professionalism run out one out the
exceptions being in the case of rugby where the
sport split into entirely and there was a professional
version rugby league and an amateur version rugby
union the latter remaining amateur until 1995,
which is very impressive. But this is not the
case for football. Association football, I should
say, because rugby is, of course, rugby football,
having originated at rugby school. Neither of
which are called soccer. Neither of which are,
generally speaking, called soccer. But anyway,
so, as I said, Blackburn Rovers winning three
in a row, and by the time they won their third,
professionalism had been legalised, albeit reluctantly,
by the FA. who could see where the tide was turning.
So in 1888, the great Preston North End team
reached the final. They were undefeated in 42
matches, having beaten Hyde 26 -0 in one of the
rounds. And they had the gall to ask for a photo
with the trophy before the final, to which the
referee responded, hadn't you better win it first?
West Bromwich Albion won that game 2 -1. Yes.
Preston lost. I love that. However... The beauty
of the Cup, that's exactly what this tournament
is all about, humbling people. Their first loss
in 42 games and off their pedestal. However,
1888 -1889 was the first year of the Football
League, the first year of what was then Division
1, what you would now call the Premier League,
and Preston North End did in fact win that, and
they won the FA Cup that season as well, becoming
the first team to win the FA Cup double, which
is something we might get into again, which is
when you win the League and the FA Cup. in the
same season as Arsenal have before, as Liverpool
have before. It's a coveted domestic title, isn't
it, basically? Yeah, it's relatively rare. I
think Man City were obviously the last team to
do it, along with the Champions League as well
that season, but it doesn't happen too often.
Yeah, so from there, generally speaking, the
good thing about the FA Cup is, other than...
Small things such as how they do the buys and
actually learning how to draw a tournament properly.
And replays. Replays have lessened and lessened
over the years. In the beginning, if you drew
a game, it would always be a replay and it would
go on. If you drew again, second replay, third
replay. If you drew a final, it would go to a
replay and several finals have. I think the first
one was 1970 and a couple more since then. I
want to say most recently, did Arsenal go to
a replay in 93? 93, we beat Sheffield Wednesday.
Yeah, we did the domestic cup double that year,
just if anyone cares. Yeah, so the first thing
that... Just mention it. Yeah, that's the FA
Cup and the League Cup in the same season. Well
done, Arsenal. It's a long time ago, so it's
not much of a brag. No, I was actually going
to say this. I've had the privilege of watching
Arsenal win, I think it's eight, seven or eight
of their FA Cups, and I was alive for that one,
but I don't actually have a memory of that because
I was only... Five. My first memory is 98 Cup
Double, League and FA Cup Double. Nicolas Anelka
and Marco Marz beat Newcastle 2 -0. Yes, I remember
that one too. In fact, I probably watched it
with you. Yeah, probably. Yeah, good times. So,
as I say, the tournament's largely saved the
same replays. I think immediately after that,
they got rid of replays in the finals, so finals
went to extra time and penalties. Then they got
rid of replays in the semi -finals. I think 1999
was the last semi -final to go to a replay. You
probably don't want me to mention it then, but
that was Ryan Giggs' wonder goal in the replay
to win it. Yes. Stop talking about that. Good
goal, though. It was a good goal. A horrible
person, but a good goal. Then it went from the
quarter -final shortly after that, and now it's
at the point where there simply aren't any replays
anymore. extra time and penalties, which is sad,
if you ask me. That's only because of the elite
end of the game as well. It's just scheduling
and the number of games that the best teams have
to play. There's no reason to have got... The
irony being that the lower leagues, or at least
the lower professional leagues, certainly probably
play more domestic league games, but don't play
as many games because of... European tournaments
and things like that so yeah and not advancing
as far in cups generally yeah yeah and then obviously
you have also the international game and so on
and so forth it's a real shame because it was
a it's one of the romances of the tournament
historically isn't it it's like you go away to
a to you know a team that you Well, actually,
it probably works better the other way around.
You'd be at home against someone, some superpower,
and then you would snaffle a draw and get an
away day where you get to go and play in a Premier
League stadium and you're in a lower league team.
Yeah. Big payday as well for the clubs. Yeah,
obviously, everyone at the club's happy. Players
get to go and play at Old Trafford or the Emirates
or Anfield, some giant stadium you've been watching
as a kid. The owners are happy because you also
get a portion of the gate receipts as well in
the cup. You get 25 % don't you? I think cup
games deliberately give you way more allocation.
Which for a non -league team or for a lower league
team would pay the wages for a whole year. 25
% somewhere like Old Trafford's gate receipts
when they've got 76 ,000 people in. That'll keep
you going. That will keep you going. Can I quickly
add as well, Jack? Because you got us to professionalism.
I think before we go on any further, I think
the thing for anyone who's not initiated to the
FA Cup, they need to appreciate and understand
to grasp its romances. The professional game
is only the tip of the iceberg in English football.
So basically, if you're a member club, of the
fa there is theoretically a route from whatever
league you're in through to the premier league
because it's called the footballing pyramid so
you only have four professional leagues then
you have effectively a semi -professional league
which is progressively becoming mostly professional
becoming yeah exactly becoming more more professional
which is the um national league old school conference
but thereafter the league system splits into
effectively north and south and then it pyramids
out exponentially to county level yeah it evenly
pyramids out now which is something I've been
reading into recently it's at level one of non
-league so the national league it's one division
then it's two divisions then it's four divisions
then it's eight divisions so you know theoretically
from level ten um you can level 10 of the football
league so that's level six of the non -league
you can get promoted all the way from there 10
seasons in a row yeah you could theoretically
end up in the premier league and you can enter
the fa cup as well although level 10 teams don't
necessarily get in it level 9 and above are guaranteed
a place level 10 only get a place if a level
9 team cannot compete for whatever reason But
the point is that... There's a waiting list,
basically. Yeah, if you're in the football pyramid,
then you can theoretically get to the FA Cup
final. You can play anyone in the football league
pyramid. And you can get, in ideal circumstances,
from the bottom to the top. And a contemporaneous
example of that in sort of semi -terms is Wrexham.
who have flown up through the leagues, obviously
under the famous ownership of two Hollywood stars.
Ryan Reynolds and Rob McElhenney. Yeah, and they've
gone from the National League to the Championship
in three straight years, which is hard. I mean,
it's incredible. I know this is slightly getting
off topic. Well, it's not. I mean, Wrexham do
have a very good FA Cup history. despite never
having won it, because obviously they've been
a lower league team. They have a few giant killings
under their belt, a few good cup runs. It is
genuinely impressive what those two have done
at the club, regardless of how rich they are.
You cannot throw money at a football club and
get a club free promotions in a row. You simply
can't. It must be an incredibly well -run football
club. That's all I'm going to say on the matter.
Yeah, agreed. Welcome to Wrexham, if you need
any more information. But yeah, I mean, just
to round that off, what we're saying, everything
we're talking about here is in that context.
So it is the most amateurish levels that can
play against the best of the best. you can get
a european champion against like a university
team and because there are some university teams
in the football pyramid yeah there are and and
anyone if you go far enough if you get to the
the third round is the first round where the
premier league teams and the championship teams
the league below the premier league uh enter
so if you get yourself to the third round and
get yourself a lucky draw you can end up as a
and it happens a lot a non -league team playing
a premier league team and every so often the
non -league team wins and we'll get into that
a bit But I think most recently, Lincoln City
knocked out Burnley in 2017. And before that,
Luton knocked out... Who did they knock out?
Norwich. They knocked out when Norwich were a
Premier League team in 2013. And there was actually
a player who played in both those games. And
I forget who it is. But he played for Luton in
the first one and was victorious. Then he played
for Burnley in the second one. Didn't Lincoln
make the... quarter finals yeah they made the
quarters that's it yeah Andre Gray I think it
was Andre Gray yeah so Andre Gray actually played
in both those games once on the winning team
once on the losing team which does make him the
only person I think in history who's ever knocked
out a Premier League team as a non -league player
and be knocked out by a non -league team as a
Premier League player that's fun there you go
But yeah, so sorry, I sidetracked us slightly,
but I thought it was important to contextualize
why we love this tournament so much and why it
captures the imagination so vividly. Well, I
should say about this, like we obviously prepared
a lot of notes in other episodes. I've not prepared
a whole amount for this. I've only really prepared
one thing, which I'll go into now because it
sort of feeds on to the point we're at in history.
It's quite nice just to be able to ad -lib and
talk about something we love, honestly. It is
very cool. As much as I love learning about sports,
as much as I've loved learning about horse racing
and learning about ice hockey, this is, yeah.
It's nice. It is nice. Just to say that. So,
do you want to, not a story. Yeah, it is a story,
actually. Do you want a story? Yeah, I guess
so. Because it carries straight on from where
we were. So, we're up to, obviously, professionalism's
kicked in. I'll take you forward a few years.
We're up to 1914, 1915 season. And as anyone
who knows anything about history will know, it
was quite a seismic event going on in the world
at that time. Some Serbians weren't too enamored
by some Austrian guy. Yeah, pretty much. A very
good summary. You nailed it there. Be a historian,
Ben. So yeah, during the First World War, the
landscape of British society obviously underwent
huge transformations, but nowhere was this more
visible. arguably, than the world of football.
So the 1915 FA Cup final, which was between Sheffield
United and Chelsea, which I believe Sheffield
United won 3 -0. I've got that written down,
just showing off again. You got it right. Became
known as the Khaki final, the Khaki final, due
to the high number of uniformed soldiers in the
stands. It was a poignant and symbolic moment,
which neatly captured the end of peacetime football.
with the Earl of Derby, who presented the trophy,
calling on anyone not yet in uniform to play
a sterner game for England. Although it should
be pointed out that was mostly drowned out by
the fans cheering, but nevertheless made the
papers. As the war intensified, obviously, more
and more young men were being conscripted en
masse to join the slaughter and the front lines,
sadly. So football, men's professional football.
was suspended in 1915 at the end of the 1914
-15 season. Football did continue, but it was
very, very heavily enforced amateur. And in fact,
there were some teams who came afoul of that
after the war. Leeds City ended up being disqualified
from the league for paying their players during
this amateur period and were reformed as Leeds
United, that who are quite famous. Yeah, quite
famous. um so yeah many players obviously left
the pitch for the trenches and obviously many
many never returned uh over 2 000 professional
footballers joined the military and obviously
many young men who were filling the terraces
and local teams rosters were also lost to the
horrors of the western front and the slaughter
the mindless pointless slaughter but we'll get
let's not get into that right now yeah that's
uh We have a tendency to be depressing with some
of our stories. I don't know if it's going to
end happily, but let's not go to the trenches.
This is good. It's hard to be positive about
it. To be fair, you're going to be impressed
I find some positivity in the First World War.
It's very hard to be positive about that war.
Nevertheless, with the male workforce decimated,
literally, the people who stepped forward to
cover were, of course, women. So women stepped
forward to keep the wheels of the nation turning.
They took up roles in factories, transportation,
agriculture, munitions, previously obviously
the exclusive domain of men. These munitions
workers particularly, colloquially known as munitionettes,
brought the same level of energy and camaraderie
to their downtime, just as the men did, and chose
the sport they most wanted to unwind, and that
was particularly football. For the same reasons
football is so popular today, because it can
be played with anyone with a ball and a couple
of jumpers for goalposts. It is a very accessible
sport. So just like with the birth of the men's
game, the popularity and organisation of women's
football exploded during these years, mainly
in industrial centres across the country, mainly
built around teams working out of these factories,
particularly. I thought you were going to say
something then. No, no, I just think this is
cool. I'm locked in. I'm just listening. Yeah,
it's great. So one of the most significant examples
of this early organisation was the Munitionettes
Cup, officially titled the Tyne and Wear and
Tease Alfred Wood Munition Girls Cup, which was
launched in August 1917 in North East England,
as you can imagine by the name. The competition
was solely contested by women in factory teams,
obviously composed of female war workers. The
final of the inaugural tournament was played
on the 18th of May 1918 and saw Blythe Spartans
beat Bolcal Vaughan 5 -0 with the legendary Bella
Rae, who incidentally scored 133 goals in 30
games that season. She scored a hat -trick in
the final. That's alright, isn't it? Yeah, there's
a film about her, I think, or a series, was it?
Warbella. That's literally like Roy of the Rovers
kind of record. It's ludicrous. Absolutely ludicrous.
And she's very, very well respected in her neck
of the woods up in Blythe. I think Dan Burns
talked about it quite a lot. I think he's from
Blythe. Blythe being near Newcastle. Yes, yes.
A massive footballing city. But one of the most
impressive things about that final was it was
played in front of 22 ,000 people in Middlesbrough,
which was a pretty impressive turnout. obviously
spoke volumes about the enthusiasm for the women's
game. The women's game actually managed to reach
international levels before the war ended. On
Boxing Day 1917, a representative team from England
took on a side from Ireland in front of 20 ,000
spectators, which again is another very good
turnout. I don't know what the score of that
was though, sorry. I'm sure it was played in
really good faith. The Irish and English probably
getting on famously at that hit. In 1917? Oh
yes. Nothing at all going on in the world then.
Which would keep them from a sense of friendship.
There's an irony there for anyone who doesn't
understand that it's the same year as the Easter
Risings where the Irish revolted against English
rule. Not for the first time, not for the last
time. So yeah, among the many teams formed during
this era, none was more famous or more influential
than the Dick Kerr Ladies FC who were based in
Preston and founded in 1917. consisting of female
workers from Dick Kerr & Co. Munitions Factory,
and the comma is in their name, so it's Dick,
Kerr, Ladies FC, which is fun. I don't know why
I like that so much. They're from the Dick Kerr
& Co. Munitions Factory and quickly rose to prominence
as arguably the most successful and well -known
women's team of the 20th century. In their very
first match, they had a crowd of 10 ,000 and
raised £600 for charitable causes, which is the
equivalent of £35 ,000 today. That ain't bad.
That isn't bad. They existed for 48 years, and
in that time they played 755 games, winning 682
of them, drawing 39 and losing just 34, which
frankly is Harlem Globetrotter levels of dominance.
I was going to say, that makes the All Blacks
look unsuccessful. Yeah. Yeah, good team. Their
early matches often drew crowds in the tens of
thousands, but famously one match against St.
Helen's Ladies in December 1920 was played in
front of 53 ,000 spectators at Goodison Park.
which was an attendance figure for a women's
club match that wouldn't be exceeded until Atletico
Madrid played Barcelona in front of 60 ,000 spectators
at the Metropolitano in 2019. Which is ridiculous.
That is ridiculous. And wouldn't be matched in
England until Arsenal versus Wolfsburg at the
Emirates in front of 60 ,000 in 2023. Which is
mad. Two years ago. Yeah. So they beat a French
11 2 -0 in 1920 in front of 25 ,000 spectators
in Preston, which was actually a record attendance
for Deepdale at the time. The team were known
for their fast and skillful play, excellent teamwork.
They wore black and white striped jerseys with
a Union Jack on the breast, blue shorts, and
completed their look with striped hats covering
their hair, which they all hated, but was a necessary
evil at the time, due to obviously the inherent
conservatism. They also contributed most of the
players to an England 11 that beat Scotland.
Scotland 11, 22 -0 that year as well. Nice. Was
it a 90 -minute game? I think it was 90 minutes.
They changed some of the rules. They changed
the pitch dimensions, made it slightly smaller,
and they made the ball lighter, which actually
is legitimate because the balls in those days
weighed an absolute ton. I was just trying to
gauge how much of a butchering it was. I don't
think there's any way that can't be a butchering.
called off early probably should have been. So
anyway, they were initially quite well supported
by governments and the press due to their fundraising
and the backing of the private companies that
formed them as well. They even found support
from a very unlikely source when trying to play
a pioneering floodlit night match in 1920 with
repurposed anti -air spotlights as floodlights
and they had to seek permission from the secretary
of defence at the time, whose name was Winston
Churchill, and they got permission from him to
do that. That's weird, yeah, that's kind of cool.
So, here, I'm sure you can imagine where this
is going, but despite their popularity and early
support, and women's football generally has popularity
and early support, it faced enormous and unsurprising
institutional resistance. In 1921, at the height
of their success, and at the time they were packing
Division 1 stadiums to the rafters, The FA, the
Football Association, ruled that sport was quote
-unquote unsuitable for women and accused them
of keeping too much money raised in expenses
and not donating enough to charity. Essentially
the same thing they got Leeds City for. Something,
of course, keeping too much money in expenses
and not donating enough to charity, something
that the men at the FA can never be accused of,
of course. Yeah, I was going to say the irony
in that accusation. Yeah. So by being excluded,
by being kicked out, this banned them from using
any grounds of any affiliated club and effectively
pushed the women's game into the margins for
half a century. Jesus. The Dick Curl ladies carried
on playing, as I said. They carried on touring,
using smaller venues, but still attracting large
crowds. They also toured internationally, which
included, this is really cool, a tour to the
United States in 1922, where they played nine
matches against men's teams composed of former
professional players from... the British Isles
who had emigrated, and national -level athletes.
Well, they played nine matches against men's
teams composed of former professional players
and national -level athletes. They faced strong
opposition, which included, as I said, former
Football League players who had emigrated to
the United States, and at least one male player
who would go on to appear at the 1930 World Cup
for the United States. Despite this, they held
their own. Three wins, three draws, three losses.
American newspapers lauded them, with the Fall
River Evening Herald calling their visit one
of the biggest things in apologies for this word
soccer ever to a visitor of the united states
yeah we're in england now i can use football
uh the praise their stamina their combination
play and their speed and peter renzuli who was
a goalkeeper for pats and fc remarked years later
we were national champions but we had a hell
of a job beating them it's impressive that's
very impressive i was going to ask you if that
had anything to do with the um the formation
of the national women's soccer league in america
because that's obviously massive um but A quick
Google suggests that's actually more recent than
I thought. I think so. So I doubt it. It's 2012
that was set up, but I don't know if it had any
predecessors, etc. But anyway, I digress. I just
thought it would have been a nice link if it
had been, but it's not. I think women's football
in England is slightly behind the curve, but
it's not that behind the curve. Unfortunately,
the entire world was behind the curve, including
the United States. The United States were ahead
of the curve, but it's all very much relative.
Anyway, so in 1926, following a dispute with
the club's ownership, the team was renamed Preston
Ladies FC, but continued playing, so it's all
the same team. They continued until 1965, including
winning in 1954 against a team from Paris, 4
-0, with future Liverpool manager and 1965 FA
Cup winning manager Bill Shankly refereeing the
match, representing the winners with a trophy.
Bill Shankly. Which is literally the only reason
I mentioned that particular fact. I was going
to say. Jack, being a Liverpool fan, anyone who's
listening, Bill Shankly is a legendary Liverpool
manager. He is everything Liverpool. He is the
man who built the club, as it is today. So, the
FA's ban on women's football lasted until 1971,
and then following sustained pressure from players,
campaigners, and fans, it was lifted. The same
year saw the formation of the Women's Football
Association Cup. That is the Women's Football
Association Cup, as opposed to the Women's. football
association cup there was a different organization
called the women's football association god forbid
the fa take them back onto their wing quite yet
yeah so it was a women's football association
cup which was the forerunner to the modern women's
fa cup and is considered um when looking at stats
and history these are considered fa cup games
the first fa cup winner for women therefore was
southampton women in fc in 1971 nice so throughout
the 80s and 90s the women's game continued to
grow but very slowly In 1992, the FA finally
took full control of the women's game, taken
over from the WFA, though this was merely a step
towards full institutional recognition that was
still to come. The 90s themselves saw the breakout
of the women's game globally for the first time,
but as I mentioned, England were behind the curve
on that. The first Women's World Cup was held
in 1991. So, as everyone, I'm sure, well, anyone
who knows anything about football will be no
doubt aware, the 21st century has seen a very...
clear renaissance in women's football. The Women's
Super League was launched in 2011 which brought
professional status and broadcasting deals to
the women's game. Attendances have surged as
a result and matches now regularly take place
in the same major stadiums once closed off to
female players. The Women's FA Cup final is now
held annually at Wembley Stadium and after COVID
caused the postponement of the 2021 FA Cup final
the match was eventually played. symbolically
on december the 5th 2021 which is 100 years to
the day since the fa banned women's football
uh unfortunately ben close your ears uh chelsea
beat arsenal that day in front of 41 000 spectators
and chelsea again won in 2023 this time before
a record -breaking 77 390 fans which really cemented
the cup status as one of the premier events in
the global women's football calendar or the global
football calendar entirely so yeah there we go
from the factory fields of wartime England to
the bright lights of Wembley, women's football.
Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. I do like that story.
It is cool. It's a very cool story, particularly
the way in which it emerged and then was obviously
buried underground again. Um, you know, whilst
the men were away and, um, just shows like that
without getting too poignant about the whole
thing, it does show what opportunity does because
that is all, that is all. world war one was for
women's football just an opportunity it's not
because it's not because they couldn't do it
or they're not good at it just they had a chance
to play it seems like the most obvious thing
in the world to say but the single way to improve
a sport more than anything else to get a lot
of people playing it yeah obviously there's an
opportunity first world war there was a great
demand for it there was a great opportunity for
these women to play it they had downtime between
their work in the factories to let off steam
and that's what they chose to do because obviously
it's a great game and it's an easy game to play
it's a very accessible game and for the same
reasons now I will say this right now watch out
for the England women's team in a few years time
because England managed to win the European Championships
in 2021 or 2022 when it actually was I think
on the back of this relatively slow curve relatively
slow uptake of the game still managed to get
a very very strong team together a very very
well run team and won those Euros. As a result
of that, I, as I mentioned several times, am
a coach at a junior football club. Lots of girls
have started playing. We've gone from having,
I think, about four or five teams when I first
joined, and the team may be maybe 40 girls playing
at the club, to quadrupling that, at least now.
The uptake has been ridiculous. The ability of
those players has gone through the roof. The
younger age groups, particularly at our club,
are extremely good. They are getting less and
less distinguishable from the boys at their age,
and a lot of them are playing both in girls football
and in mixed football. I should point out to
anyone who doesn't know, there is no such thing
as boys football in the United Kingdom, or in
England, I should say. I don't know what it is
in the other. I presume it's the same, but certainly
in England, under the FA, there is no such thing
as boys football. It is all mixed football. So
boys and girls can play together. Obviously,
the mixed teams are mostly boys and then the
girls teams have the opportunity to play themselves.
But there are a lot of very talented young girls
playing in the mixed teams as well. And I've
been lucky enough to coach them as well. So,
yeah. So if anyone's come to this podcast thinking
they're not going to have to listen to anyone
championing women's football, you are horribly
mistaken and we won't apologize for it. So, yeah,
there we are. But if you're bothered about it,
please feel free to go online and complain about
it because there's things you can do to benefit
the women's game. If you understand anything
about the internet and understand what engagement
does, if you don't want anyone to watch that
highlight that you're complaining about, I'd
recommend you don't complain about it, mate.
From my point of view, you go ahead and complain
about it. Honestly, if anyone thinks that women's
football is going away in England, you are sorely
mistaken. It has just begun. It is just getting
started. England are going to be very, very good
in about, Six or seven years' time. Just watch
out. And if any father out there has a prodigal
daughter who is showing immense talent in football,
can I recommend Arsenal Women's Football Club
as a potential academy steeped in history? And
since we're on the FA Cup, can I just point out
that we've made 17 finals in the most successful
club in women's FA Cup history with 14 wins.
So, yeah. 14 wins, eh? Same as the men. Exactly.
A nice little symmetry. Our chance to slip in
one of our first stats of the day. Ben has dropped
in it. The most successful team in both the men's
FA Cup and the women's FA Cup with 14 wins in
both is Arsenal. Yeah. Men have made more finals.
We made 21 finals. 114. That means they've lost
more, Ben. It does, although we have a very,
very good win rate in my lifetime. I think we've
made... 9 finals. 1 -8. Yeah, I mean, even when
Arsenal were struggling in the in -between period
between Wenger and now, where you're good again,
even then, you're still winning FA Cups. Arsenal's
ability to get to the FA Cup final and win it,
I don't know what it is, whether it's just coincidence
or whether it's just the attitude of the club.
It's a club that takes the competition seriously.
There you are. 14 wins. I'm sure that there is
an element of fortune, but it definitely is something
that the club associates itself with quite heavily,
which is probably part of the reason why I find
this tournament so endearing generally, because
obviously my team has been successful in it.
But yeah, it is. No doubt that there's a dose
of luck involved. Because it's all about draws.
That's the other thing. It's a random draw. So
why am I being magnanimous about that? It's because
the FA Cup draw, there is no seeding system.
So the two best teams in the tournament can technically
draw each other at the earliest opportunity.
And that often opens up a route to the final.
I say often. It is not uncommon. It's not obviously.
It's not a frequent occurrence that a lower league
side makes the final or an underdog makes the
final like Crystal Palace this year. But it is
also not uncommon. It's not a freak event when
it happens. No. So if you get a favourable draw,
you can get to the final or you can get to the
latter stages without having to beat too many
sides that you would say are conventionally challenging.
Yeah. I mean, you still have to beat them. Obviously,
Crystal Palace have beaten plenty of good sides
to get here. Not least in their semi -final when
they knocked out Aston Villa in the Champions
League. Not just knocked them out either, just
squatched them. Funnily enough, one thing I mentioned
before actually kind of helped contribute to
Arsenal's first ever FA Cup win. If you recall,
I said Leeds City got kicked out of the league
in 1919. The lead city manager was a man called
Herbert Chapman. And Herbert Chapman then went
on to manage Huddersfield and won the FA Cup
with them. And then went on to manage Arsenal.
And in 1930, won the FA Cup with Arsenal. Arsenal's
first FA Cup. And then promptly, unfortunately,
passed away soon after that. There's a statue
of a man built outside the Emirates Stadium.
He is a much -loved character. I can go off on
it. In terms of doing full episodes about people
in football, you've got Johan Cruyff, who I'd
definitely do a full episode on. Marcel Bielsa,
who I'd definitely do a full episode on. Herbert
Chapman, you could definitely do a full episode
on. He revolutionised the game of football, his
approach to football. I mean, the team's still
effectively using his attacking system to this
day, at least structurally, his attacking system.
Tactically, the game has changed a lot. He's
also the reason that Arsenal Underground Station
is named Arsenal Underground Station. Oh, really?
Yeah, I think he was the man responsible for
that. I say responsible for it. I'm sure he wasn't
the decision maker, but he was an influence in
that coming about, I believe. Unless I've misunderstood
my history, but I'm fairly sure that's right.
Well, fair enough. So where do we go from here?
where do we go from here well okay let's talk
about the trophy because i've literally got the
no twin in front of me and i'll forget to do
it if i don't so there's been five trophies in
the history of the competition uh the first one
was in 1872 was called the little tin idol it
was created by martin hall and co of sheffield
for 20 pounds and all the clubs that entered
the competition that year had to contribute i
think a guinea whatever the heck a guinea is,
towards that. So yeah, that's cool. That is cool.
What is a guinea? I'm going to have a look. I
want to say it's like a pound and a shilling
or something. It's like just over a pound, something
like that. But anyway, not used today. No. So
that was the trophy until 1895 when Aston Villa
came carelessly, had it stolen from them from
a shop window display in Birmingham, as you do.
The fief was never caught, although in the 1950s,
a criminal claimed it was melted down for counterfeit
coins. And Aston Villa were found £25 for its
disappearance, presuming it accrued £5 worth
of value in the 20 years it was being used. So
in 1895, a new trophy, a replacement trophy in
the same design, was commissioned and was in
use for 15 years. It was retired later and it
was later auctioned for £420 ,000 in 2005. There
you go. But in 1911, the classic design, the
design that's used today was designed and presented
for the first time. Bradford jewellers Fattorini
crafted the new, more robust trophy, which is
the design which remains the same to today. It
was first awarded to the winners of the 1911
tournament, appropriately, Bradford City, with
the trophy having been designed in Bradford.
It surfed for 81 years and was retired in 1992,
where it was very battered and bruised by them.
It was valued at £1 million on the Antiques Roadshow,
and some speculate it might originally have been
a champagne cooler, given it's got decorative
grapes on it. But it doesn't really matter. 1992,
because it was so battered and bruised, they
made a new one, which Liverpool captain Mark
Wright was the first man to lift when they beat
Sunderland in 1992. 2 -0. Ian Rush and Michael
Thomas haven't scored the goals. The famous Michael
Thomas. Oh yeah, shouldn't have mentioned him.
That was an error. Yeah, he famously once scored
against Liverpool to win the league title for
Arsenal. With the last kick of the season. We
do digress. Fever pitch. Yeah, neither of us
remember that. We were alive for it, but we were
very young. And then in 2014, exactly the same
trophy, but a bit more material, a bit heavier,
6 .3 kilograms, designed to withstand public
appearances. So yeah, the one trophy lasted like
80 years and the second trophy only lasted about
30 years because it was touring so much and so
many fans touched it and dropped it, I imagine.
And the new trophy is built a bit heavier to
desire to be able to be dropped by, you know.
children and the like. Yeah, Arsenal captain.
That's true. Obama Yang dropped it. But yeah,
so it's only everyone loaned to the teams that
win it and it has to be returned to the FA by
March the 1st of the following year. So they
get it for quite a fair bit of time. Ten months.
That's quite cool. Nine months. I'm just going
to throw a bone to our random enthusiasts out
there. This time they're numismatists, I think.
They're the people who collect coins. I found
out what a guinea is. A guinea was worth £1 .01
and equates to £1 .05 in modern money. And so,
yeah, the clubs didn't have to contribute very
much. And it also shows just how far it's come
when you were telling us about how much the cups
were auctioned off or valued at later on in the
tournament's history. Yeah. Yeah, there you go.
Entrenched. I will never... I will never remember
that word you just said, but shout out to you
coin collectors. And numismatist, if I'm pronouncing
it correctly. I can't imagine the Venn diagram
of people who collect coins and like this podcast.
It's very far apart. Probably a complete circle,
I imagine. Yes. Yeah, shout out to you, our core
supporters, probably. Yeah, so. The trophy though,
yeah. The trophy's an iconic trophy. It's the
way it looks. Yeah, the way it's in parts as
well. The way you've got the base, you've got
the trophy, you've got the lid. It all separates
out and confuses Arsenal captains in that one
occurrence. They try to lift the whole thing
up. I mean, I guess it's true for most modern
sports these days, but the silhouette of the
FA Cup is unmistakable. Yes, as all good trophies
should be. Champions League trophy as a Premier
League is. Silly crown on top. But the FA Cup's
logo is just a silhouette of its trophy. Or it
is just the trophy, a picture of it, depending
on your preferred broadcaster. With a sponsorship
slapped over the top? Naturally. Is it Emirates
still? I think it is, yeah. They also sponsor
Arsenal. They do. Oh, conspiracy theory. There
we go. I also keep winning it. Weird that. I
love a conspiracy theory. I'm just having a look
at the sponsors for us. The Emirates, yeah, it
is. So, I mean, I'll charge for a bit of the
rest of the history. I think it would be a good
idea now. So, first final at Wembley Stadium
was in 1923. Bolton beat West Ham 2 -0. One of
the goals was very controversial. Officially,
126 ,000 attended. Mate, the White Horse final.
The White Horse final. Actually, it was definitely
over 200 ,000. It might even be as high as 300
,000. Can I add some flavour to that? The White
Horse final. I don't know why I went down rabbit
holes with this because I think I love it for
a couple of reasons. It's horses again, yeah.
It's horses. It's post -World War I. It's indicative
of the love that the English public have for
this tournament and this event generally. And
so, yeah, as you were just saying, Jack, like
official capacity was, I think, 125 ,000 back
in the day at Wembley. Obviously, it was terraces.
make allowances for that um but the london underground
that day sold more than 241 000 tickets from
stations within london to wembley says it all
doesn't it and that figure doesn't cover the
people that traveled without a ticket because
obviously it would have been people bunking trains
it doesn't cover people who reach the stadium
on by road or on foot and it doesn't include
london buses which were described as overwhelmed
On the day of the match, the gates opened at
11 .30 a .m. Kickoff was obviously traditionally
at 3 p .m. And by 1 .45, they had to be shut
because the stadium was already full. And then
people started gathering outside of it. So the
fans rushed the gates at 2 .15. One of the spectators,
Terry Hickey, who was interviewed, said later,
to put it mildly, the whole thing was a bloody
shambles. which I think is a very English articulation
of the situation. The roads around the stadium
were so blocked that the Bolton players had to
abandon their coach a mile from the stadium and
walk through the crowds to the game. And the
stadium authorities were considering calling
it off, but they feared the consequences of cancelling
the FA Cup final and the angry response that
that might provoke. And as you said, they think
up to 300 ,000 people actually managed to gain
entry. Terraces are overflowing to the point
that the fans were on the pitch and the mounted
police had to be brought in to clear the crowds.
And this is where our protagonist, our hero,
enters the fray. So, yeah, mounted police, as
I say. And one of those police officers was a
chap called P .C. George Scorori. I think I'm
pronouncing his name right. Scorori. Scorori.
Which is quite an appropriate name, actually.
It is, yeah. He wasn't supposed to be on duty
that day, but he answered the call for emergency
assistance. And he was on a horse named Billy.
Now, Billy was a grey horse, not a white horse.
I was going to say this. The only fact I know
about Billy is that he wasn't white, even though
it's called the White Horse Final. Yeah, he was
grey. The TV cameras couldn't pick him up properly.
He came across as white on the TV screens, exactly,
and all the photos that were taken of him. And
so, basically, PC Scorry didn't think, he literally
is on record as saying he didn't think it was
possible. He thought it was impossible to clear
the crowds. But he describes the horse as easing
them back with his nose and tail until he got
the goal line cleared. And essentially, he thinks
that the horse was, he gives the horse all the
credit. He says it had nothing really to do with
him. The horse was just, commanding attention
and the crowds were good natured and seemed to
understand what was required of them and what
the horse was asking them to do and he pushed
them back and whilst the pitch was being cleared
the event choir of St. Luke's sang Abide with
me Abide with me I didn't know if you were going
to mention that or not I had that charged up
and ready to go So yeah, that's why it's called
the White Horse Final. But I just think it's
so cool. It prompted discussion in the House
of Commons, and I think this is your fact, Jack,
not mine, so I'm going to plagiarise off you,
but I think it led to it being a ticketed -only
event. Is that right? Yeah, I was going to say,
in the least surprising news ever, all -ticket
final from there. Yeah, I love this story, and
I love how that's the first use of... history
of abide with me being sung at the fa cup final
apparently it was also sung by the west ham fans
as they sadly walked home after losing but um
uh abide with me became a permanent staple from
1927 and i have a theory why it became a permanent
staple from 19 or why it was sung so why to remember
that it was sung in 1927 because the 1927 final
had a a lot of people in the stadium from a certain
part of the united kingdom which is who are very
well known for their singing, very well known
for their male choirs. Cardiff City got to the
FA Cup final that year. And if anyone knows anything
about Wales, they love a sing song and they're
very good at it. And Cardiff City played, and
again, close your ears, Ben, they played Arsenal
that day and Cardiff City actually won the FA
Cup, which is the last non -English team to win
the FA Cup. There are still, basically anyone
playing in the English football system enters
the FA Cup, so Cardiff still do, Wrexham do,
Swansea do, so on and so forth. Although it's
been, Cardiff reached the final, I think 2008,
they reached the final, lost to Portsmouth, I
believe. Yes. But yeah, Cardiff were the last
non -English team to win it. They took the FA
Cup back home with them to Wales and left behind
a legacy of Abide With Me being sung then on
and then for, therefore, for the rest of the
time. It's a wonderful song. That is, yeah. That's
a cool, that's a cool origin story. It is. It
is very cool. But yeah, sorry, I just really
like the White Horse final just because I think
it illustrates, left to our own devices, what
the English public will do to make an FA Cup
final. Yeah, absolutely. And any other sporting
event. Anyway, 1927 was also famous because it
was the first FA Cup final broadcast by the British
Broadcasting Corporation, the BBC, obviously
via the radio. And the Radio Times also gave
a grid. which allowed you to follow the ball
around the pitch. So the commentator would say,
the ball is now in A1 or whatever, and you'd
be able to follow it on the pitch. So completely
pointless, but that was interesting. Innovative,
at least. Yeah. So yeah, I'll fast forward ahead
now. I'll spin through some of the key finals,
the key things that happened, all the key things
that happened during the tournaments. 1946 was
the first post -World War II FA Cup. Most notable
for some ties being played over two legs, which
has never happened before. Derby County won the
final, but it was most notable for a disaster
which happened in Bolton in the sixth round,
which is the Burnden Park disaster, in which
quite a lot of fans lost their lives. Not, unfortunately,
the last disaster to hit the FA Cup. We'll come
to later. It's also a pretty eerie precursor,
because it's similar in nature. Yeah. So, playing
in that game was one Stanley Matthews. I think
it was Bolton against Stoke, I want to say. at
that point. Correct. I don't think Matthews had
joined Blackpool yet, but anyway. Stanley Matthews,
in 1953, was the most famous English footballer
ever, at that point. He's still one of the most
famous English footballers to this day. His incredible
longevity is most notable. He was the first ever
winner of the Ballon d 'Or trophy, and he won
it in 1956. I think that's boss. He won it in
1956 at the age of 41 years old. Whoa. Which
was nine years before he retired. carried on
playing until 1965 played for England until 1957
but in 1953 he'd never won any trophy he played
for Stoke his boyhood club he'd won division
two with them I should say he never won a division
one trophy or an FA Cup trophy or anything like
that he won division two with them in 1933 he
would later win division two with them again
in 1963 which is fairly incredible but in 1953
Blackpool, his team at the time. He was at Blackpool
in between a couple of spells at Stoke. They
were playing Bolton in the final and they found
themselves 3 -1 down with not too long left on
the clock. He was playing with a man named Stan
Mortensen who was possibly the most unfortunate
man in FA Cup final history because this final
became known as the Matthews final after Blackpool
came back from 3 -1 down, pulled the goal back
through Mortensen, got an equaliser through Mortensen.
which was his hat -trick goal, because he scored
the first goal as well. That's a Stan Mortensen
hat -trick. And then in the 92nd minute of the
game, having equalised in the 89th, Stanley Matthews
beat a couple of players, got to the byline,
pulled the ball back across to where he thought
Stan Mortensen would be. And apparently Matthews
later said, for the first time all bloody season,
he wasn't stood there. Obviously, Stanley Matthews
would never have said bloody because he was a
lovely man. But Stan Mortensen wasn't there,
but a man named Bill Perry was. And Bill Perry...
swept it in for a 4 -3 victory in what is generally
regarded as the greatest FA Cup final of all
time, and definitely the greatest FA Cup final
comeback of all time. So it's called the Matthews
final, basically because of the reverence the
British public have for Stanley Matthews. It
really should be called, if not the Mortensen
final, then the two Stans final, something like
that, because Stan Mortensen and Stanley Matthews
were both instrumental to winning that. So yes,
Stan Mortensen is obviously very well remembered.
He's the only man ever to have scored a hat -trick
in an FA Cup final, and everyone remembers Stanley
Matthews. I think you can probably begrudge that,
because Stanley Matthews was an absolute legend.
Yeah, and he's still got his FA Cup medal, Stan
Mortensen. Yes, a legend of the game himself.
So the 1950s were notable for pretty much one
other thing. We both like this story a lot. I
know where you're going with this. So, well,
in general terms, it's notable for one other
thing, which was injuries. Injuries. There were
no substitutes at this point. There was no substitutes
until 1967. But let's go through this. 1952,
Arsenal's Wally Barnes got split cartilage. 1953,
Eric Bell was injured during that final I just
mentioned. 1955, Jimmy Meadows broke his leg.
1957, Ray Wood of Man United. got clattered and
ended up finishing out limping on the wing. 1959,
Roy Dwight broke his leg playing for Luton. Roy
Dwight, funnily enough, is actually Elton John's
cousin, what he's most famous for. 1960s, he
carried on. Dave Whelan broke his leg playing
for Blackburn. Do you recognise the name Dave
Whelan? Yeah, I do, but I don't know why. He
was the chairman of Wigan when they won the FA
Cup in 2013. That's it. That was a brilliant
fight. Now his nephew owns it or something. Is
that right? Yeah, 1961, Len Chalmers as well.
And then finally, in the mid -60s, they finally
allowed substitutes in football. You might have
noticed there was one year and one name I left
off there, Ben, because a man that deserves a
mention, 1956. Well, he's going to make all of
these other guys look like they basically should
have played on. For various reasons. So Bert
Routman was born in Bremen in 1923. He joined
the Luftwaffe earlier in the Second War. They
later became a paratrooper. He was initially
serving in Poland and fought on the Eastern Front.
He earned five medals, including an Iron Cross,
which is a very high award for valour in the
German army. Later in the war, he ended up on
the Western Front, where he was captured by the
British as the war grew to a close. One of only
90 of his original 1 ,000 -man regiment to survive
the war. He was transferred to a prison of war
camp in Ashton in Makefield, Lancashire. After
the war, he refused an offer of repatriation,
instead deciding to start his life in Lancashire,
to continue his life living in Lancashire, where
he got married and started playing in golf for
a local football team who were St. Helens Town.
He was so good that in 1949, a much bigger team,
Manchester City, back when they were still loved
and respected by all, as opposed to today. yeah
basically probably should say pre -2006 seven
-ish before they got bought out by a thai billionaire
then were sold to their current owners um they
were very much like loved as a working class
team of the people and there's a long -going
joke about everyone in Manchester supporting
Manchester City and not Manchester United despite
Manchester United's success. Obviously, I don't
want to criticise Manchester City wholeheartedly.
A lot of their fans have been there and they've
been through some ups and downs. Some major downs.
What was the second division? Seeing themselves
win a playoff game to get themselves back up.
The second division is what is now League One,
the third tier of English football. You can,
12 years later, winning the title. I bet the
high tasted sweeter for the low that preceded
it. Anyway, Bert Troutman played in his first
FA Cup final in 1955 against Newcastle United
and came out on the losing side, the wrong side
of a 3 -1 deficit. But Manchester City got back
there in 1956 and they were playing Birmingham
City in that game. So the game started well for
Manchester City. They took the lead in the third
minute before Birmingham equalised in the 15th
minute. Manchester City restored their lead so
with 17 minutes remaining Bert Troutman dived
at the feet of a Birmingham striker to win the
ball but the striker's knee hit him in the back
of the neck with a forceful blow Troutman was
immediately knocked unconscious and the referee
understandably stopped there immediately the
trainer came out to the pitch but Yeah, even
in the 1950s. I'm laughing because, like, stopping
play is as far as this story goes for, like,
medical attention and care for this guy. Oh,
there was no substitutes. There was no substitutes
and ordinarily... I get that, but, like, he got
sparked and they were just like... Yeah, sorry.
If it was an outfield player who got injured,
they'd stick him on the wing. You can't do that
with a goalkeeper. There were no substitutes
permitted at this point. They'd either have to
see out the game with 10 men and an outfield
player in goal. In fact, their captain advised,
their captain Roy Paul advised Troutman to go
off and wanted to put a player called Roy Little
in goal instead. But Troutman, being hard as
nails, as he obviously was, insisted on carry
on playing. So he played out the remaining minutes
in great pain, with Manchester City defending
a lead at this point as well. Basically, the
City defenders should try to hoof it as far as
they can. whenever it was possible, but even
so, Troutman was still called upon to make a
couple of further saves, the second of which
caused him to recoil in agony due to another
collision. Why was this so impressive, Jack?
Because everyone's probably wondering, why are
you banging on about this? Because this guy only
got knocked out, and I've heard about people
breaking their legs. So, it turned out after
the game, Bert Troutman did in fact go to the
doctors, which is good. And after the game, it
turned out... that he had broken a bone in his
neck. And that had it been a little bit worse,
there's nothing the trainer could have done in
that situation, shall we say. It was close. It
was a close run thing to, well, you know, something
bad or something very bad happening, shall we
say. But nevertheless, he got through the game.
Manchester City won the FA Cup. And when he went
up to career electors, win his medal. The Duke
of Edinburgh commented that his neck looked quite
crooked. So there you go. If even Phil notices,
you know it must be bad. Broken his neck and
still played on. Ridiculous. Absolutely. I love
that story. Wild. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, cool
for a number of reasons. Because A, he won. B,
it was a different time. And C, his backstory.
And it's just astonishing, obviously. and also
despite that run of injuries and despite this
specific injury obviously making very big headlines
it still took the FA over 10 years to allow substitutes
in the FA Cup it shows how archaic it was it's
not hard to so conservative yeah it's not hard
to see why the women weren't allowed to play
for like another 30 years or something just like
traditions man traditions trump everything yeah
to use some common sense I mean you can obviously
people will argue and say you can now get For
those who don't know, you now get to name, I
think you get to name 12 substitutes and you
can make five during the game. And, you know,
even when it became allowed to have substitutes
in the mid to late 60s, it was still only one
substitute. You just had one spare player on
the bench. It's very different now, but, you
know, you can make arguments both ways with that.
Obviously, the quality of the game is improved
as a result because players can run harder and
faster knowing that they're only going to be
on the pitch for 65 minutes. So, yeah, make of
that what you will. Yeah, it's pretty remarkable.
I mean, with the FA Cup's fellow remarkable stories,
that's why it's so damn cool. Yeah, I don't want
to get into certain things too much because we're
going to do so many FA Cup episodes in the future
and we're going to be able to dive in depth.
I should point out to everyone as well, obviously
when we redo events, we're not going to go back
through the history as well. We'll be straight
on to the stories. Yeah, we'll just signpost
people back to the history if they want to. Yeah,
so I would say the heyday of the FA Cup is the
1970s and the 1980s where some legendary finals,
amazing things happened. First finals go to a
replay. It was 1970 where Chelsea beat Leeds
2 -1 after extra time after a 2 -2 draw at Wembley,
which my dad was at, I think. I think my dad
said he was at that one. But he wasn't at the
replay, which is probably for the best because
he's a Leeds fan. So is your brother. So is my
brother, yeah. I'm the dark sheep. I was born
in Liverpool, just to defend myself. 1970 was
also the first year with a very short -lived,
until 1974, third -place playoff in the FA Cup,
which I did not know until today. 1972 was the
Centennial FA Cup final, and just to throw my
dad and brother a bone, Leeds won that one, beating
Arsenal. 1 -0 with an Alan Clarke diving header,
I think I mentioned before. Some of the best
FA Cup final winning goals of all time have been
headers. If you think about Wimbledon in 1988,
Laurie Sanchez's header, obviously Wigan in 2013.
Is that 88 or 89? 88, that was. 89, Liverpool
won it after Hillsborough. Yeah, in 2013, it
was, what's the ginger lad called? He scored
the winner for Wigan. Ben Watson. Ben Watson,
yeah. That's the one. Leaping like a salmon.
I remember. Yeah. wanting Wigan to win that final
so much. I was so ill that day. I had a really
bad stomach bug and I basically couldn't stand
up without having to run to the toilet to throw
up, which I'm sure everyone appreciated that
imagery. Until you saw Ben Watson's header, is
that what you were going to say? I literally,
I got to the point where I was like, how has
this game got to the 80th minute? But I have
now just come out of it. I feel great now. And
then Ben Watson scored that. It was fantastic.
I was like punching the scene, like cheering
and celebrating. And then five minutes after
full -time, I was back in the toilet again. Yeah,
just since we've mentioned that Wigan one, they
won that cup the same year that they were relegated.
And then the following year, they actually made
the semifinals again and en route to the semifinals
where yours truly knocked them out on pens before
being hull in the final, for what it's worth.
They played City again en route in the quarters
and pulled their pants at the Etihad. So they
beat them two years in a row. You'll have to
see it. Yeah. That's what this trope is all about.
City fans must hate us. Yeah, we're just trooping
City. Yeah, yeah. Although, who knows? But anyway,
the 1970s. The year later, just to bite back
at my dad and brother, was one of the greatest
FA Cup final shocks of all time, where Lowly
Sunderland of Division 2 played all -conquering
leads at this time, one of the best teams in
the world, and beat them 1 -0 in one of the...
Greatest final shocks. Ian Porterfield scoring
the winner and Jimmy Montgomery, the real hero
in Sunderland's goal, keeping out the legendary
Peter Lorimer with one of the greatest double
saves of all time, which if you haven't seen
it, watch it. It's incredible. Yeah. More shocks.
Again, I just want to add a little bit of context
for you. Leeds were as dominant in the 70s as
Liverpool were in the 80s or Man United were
in the 90s. Well, maybe not as dominant. But
they won a lot of league titles. I think all
Leeds fans would accept that Leeds should have
won more than they did. Leeds were better than
the titles they ended up winning. And they still
won. What I mean is they were the team of that
decade. Maybe two UEFA Cups. Yeah, they were
the team of the decade. They were the team of
the decade. The way Liverpool were the 80s, United
were the 90s, and City are now. Maybe not as
successful, but they were the best team. And
also a deeply unpleasant team to play as well.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And if anybody's not... You
know you played them. Yeah, if anybody wants
a sort of comedic spin on it, just watch the
damned United and Brian Classview of Leeds United
and his experience where he temporarily took
over there. yes that went down well so yeah it
was the first there was actually three division
two teams who won the FA Cup in the 70s and won
in 1980 two in the 70s won in 1980 because 1976
Southampton beat Manchester United 1 -0 and then
1980 West Ham beat Arsenal one, Bill. They did.
You're hell -bent on just talking about the seven
cup finals we lost, not the 14 that we won. Arsenal,
of course, being the holders of the competition
at the time, having won another one of the greatest
FA Cup finals of all time, having been 2 -0 up
late in the game. Arsenal were 2 -0 up late in
the game, as you can see, two late goals. And
just as Manchester United thought they had the
game in the bag and were going to score a third
and win it, Arsenal went to drop at the other
end and Alan Sunderland, of course, scored the
winner. Back post. Big perm as well on Alan Sunderland.
The 1981 was a great final too. Spurs winning
it with Ricky Vila's wonder goal, which I'm sure
you won't want me to talk about that much. Great
finals in the 70s and 80s. Liverpool beating
Everton a couple of times. The second of which,
1989, won 3 -2 against Everton in that final.
That came a few weeks after the singular darkest
day in Liverpool Football Club's history and
in Definitely the FA Cup's history as well. And
in English football's history. And in maybe,
well, I wouldn't want to say all the football's
history. There's been quite a lot of dark days
around the world. But the Hillsborough disaster,
which I'm not going to talk about too much today
because I want to do it in depth sometime. The
introductory episode to the FA Cup is not the
time to do it. But obviously as a Liverpool fan...
It would be remiss not to mention it though.
It is... Yeah. 97 Liverpool fans lost their life
95 on the day a 96 a little while later and then
a 97 died of injuries caused by the accident
not too long ago now so yeah massive tragedy
the cover up and the attitude of the newspapers
the press the government at the time I'll save
it for another day but yeah Strong views on that
one. A lot went wrong accidentally and then a
lot went wrong deliberately afterwards. Yes.
So a lot went wrong because of incompetence and
then a lot went wrong because of malice after
the fact. A lot of things were said that shouldn't
have been said and a lot of things were done
that shouldn't have been done. A lot of time
and a lot of money was wasted. A lot of opportunity
to, well, to be honest, even to get to the point
where it happened, there was just bad political
decisions made. But as I said, I'll come to that
in the future. Yeah, that's definitely something
that we can drill into. Demonisation of an entire
group of people, essentially, was a factor in
it. Football fans, generally. Yeah. Anyway, so,
yeah, from there, obviously, again, more recent,
the last final replay, as you said, Arsenal beat
Sheffield Wednesday, the first club to win the
FA Cup and the League Cup in the same season.
So, the year 2000 saw the singular worst thing.
that I can say a club has done in FA Cup history
when Manchester United withdrew from the competition
to instead play in the FIFA Club World Championship
in Brazil. Fortunately, they got it handed to
them when they were there. They didn't even get
out of the group. But as a result of that, one
of the teams that lost in round two was redrawn
back into the competition as a lucky loser. And
the lucky loser on that day was Darlington. That's
a fun fact. They once tried to sign Tino Esprit.
Yes, they did. And, yeah, a series of unfortunate
events that eventually led to them going bust,
I believe. Yeah, they went bust, yeah. But, yeah,
United, like... You just don't do that. You don't
do that, yeah, exactly. You don't do that. And
if you do do that, make sure you go and win the
bloody competition you've, you know, dropped
out of. At least have the decency to go bring
home the tin... pot, two -bit rubbish trophy
that you decided to... That you decided wasn't
important enough for your efforts. Even to send
your youth team to. Yeah, yeah. I think, like,
nah. I'm not having that. I'm not having that
at all. Neither should you. No excuse whatsoever.
No one's done it before or since, which probably
tells you the backlash that it generated. Yeah.
It should have been banned. As much as I hate
Manchester City now, God, my hatred of Manchester
United at that time. Runs deeper. My dad never
quite got me to be a Leeds fan, although I do
love Leeds United. He never quite got me to a
Leeds fan, but my God, did he get me to hate
Manchester United. That man did a sterling job
at that. Yeah, you can see our biases coming
to the fore here. It's very difficult to remain
objective when it comes to football. But yeah.
regardless of your affiliations, I think withdrawing
from the FA Cup is sacrilege, basically, when
it comes to English footballing. Tradition, culture,
heritage, morality. I don't know what else to
say about it, really. You just don't do it. It's
despicable. Despicable behavior. Anyway. And
I would say the same about my own club. But thankfully,
my club are decent and have never done something
so abhorrent. No, they haven't. Neither has mine.
And speaking of mine, 2001 till 2006, Wembley
was redeveloped and the FA Cup final was played
outside of England at the Millennium Stadium
in Cardiff, which is a lovely stadium, to be
fair. The last of those finals was 2006, which
is known as the Gerrard final. after Steven Jarosz
scored twice, including a 35 -yard screamer to
equalise in the last minute and send me into
quite large raptures. What a goal. And then Liverpool
ended up winning on penalties there. So 2007
was the first final at the new Wembley, which
Chelsea won. And from 2008, in order to pay for
the new Wembley, all semi -finals have been played
at Wembley, which I hate, and you probably hate
too. Yes. Cool. So previous to that, Semifinals
were always played at a neutral venue, but it
was always somewhere in between the two grounds.
So if it was, I don't know, Aston Villa versus
Newcastle, they played at Old Trafford. If it
was Arsenal versus Manchester United, they played
at Villa Park, something like that. It would
be Stamford Bridge, Villa Park, or Old Trafford,
generally speaking. Hillsborough. Hillsborough
as well, of course. I think the city ground in
Nottingham a few times. I hate that. It's a money
thing, isn't it? Yes. Like all these things in
modern day sport, the money talks. It's a shame
because the showpiece event is supposed to be
at Wembley. But now you get to go because there's
more tickets to sell, more corporate hospitality
to sell. But yeah, it's a shame. It is. And anyway,
that's pretty much up to the modern day, obviously.
As we said, Manchester City versus Crystal Palace
this weekend. And the neutrals like us will probably
be supporting Palace. We will definitely be supporting
Palace. Just before, because I suspect we're
wrapping up shortly. I think so, yeah. But before
we go, do you have a favourite FA Cup final,
Jack? Do I have a favourite? A personal favourite.
I do, but it's going to make me sound like a
nerd. We used to have an old videotape. Of the
1953 FA Cup final. And I used to watch it. Which
was the Matthews final. I used to watch it. And
it's wonderful. I can't go past this. Stanley
Matthews is my favourite footballer of all time.
He's just. If you're going to learn about one
footballer. And be completely. Have your opinions
of footballers turned on his head. As to how
a man can be so humble. So beloved. And so lovely.
And play for so long. And be so fit at a time
when. This was. Men who had steak and eggs for
breakfast and a half -time cigarette. That wasn't
him. He was fit as a fiddle. But yeah, 1953 would
probably be my show. I wasn't expecting that.
I wasn't expecting that. I thought you were going
to pick a Liverpool one, which shows you, or
shows anyone who's listened and stuck with us
to the end of this episode, just quite how much
you actually love this game and this sport above
your allegiances. The best Liverpool one is the
Gerrard final, which is obviously, I love that
goal and it was a great moment for me. Liverpool
should have won that game. Liverpool were the
better team in that game. West Ham, I mean, if
I was in neutral, I'd be gutted about that because
West Ham were the plucky underdogs at the time
and Paul Koncheski, you know, scoring for his
hometown club to give them the lead and everything
like that. But yeah, it's not as romantic. It
was 1953 years. It's it. It's everything. I've
got, I reckon I could, all three of mine are
Arsenal wins, naturally. I think I could probably,
I could give you three though, like for different
reasons. I think I know what one of them is going
to be. Go ahead. It's only Ray Parler. Of course
it is. It's only Ray Parler signing. 2002. Epic
up front. I'll beat Chelsea 2 -0. Freddie Lundberg
scored a... wonderful goal wonderful solo goal
and then Rave Harler who is a bit of a cult hero
at Arsenal and a stalwart in midfield guy from
Romford basically they used to have a thing called
like fan fan zone yeah and for the final they
had yeah for the final they had celebrities special
guests or whatever and Tim Lovejoy was as a Chelsea
fan was commentating and as Ray Parler picked
up the ball, he said, oh, it's only Ray Parler
before Ray Parler curled in a 30 -yard beauty
into the top corner. You might be over -exaggerating
on the yardage, but that was a beauty. I think
it was 50, maybe 60 yards. A real kick, yeah.
Yeah, a bicycle kick from the halfway line. No,
it was, yeah, that was unreal. But I think that
my favourite one is probably the victory over...
Hull in 2014 just because we hadn't won for quite
a while. Nearly 10 years we hadn't had a trophy.
We came from 2 -0 down. Aaron Ramsey with the
winner. And then the most comfortable FA Cup
final I've ever enjoyed was when Arsenal beat
Villa 4 -0 because that was nice and easy. It
was before Villa were good though. It was before
Villa were good but I've never watched a game
of such magnitude in such a relaxed state. um
although you probably don't recall it like that
because i'm sure even in like the 90th minute
i was like if we can see it now even though it
sounds like you but yeah anyway there we are
um the romance of the cup it'll never die uh
and those people that say that it's lost its
magic don't know what the hell they're talking
about yeah and i'm just i think we should end
just by talking about the greatest thing about
the fa cup just because i don't think we've given
it enough emphasis is giant killings so so anyone
who's not heard that phrase before this is when
a lower league team knocks out a higher team.
Even better when it's a non -league team knocking
out a Premier League team like we mentioned.
Lincoln City did and Luton Town did within the
last 12 years or so. But just to give a shout
out to the great ones in the past. Hereford United
knocking out Newcastle in the 70s. Ronnie Radford?
That was a 30 -yarder. Flew in to win that game.
Sutton United knocked out Coventry City as a
non -league team in 1989 on a horrible pitch
with a header and then I think Coventry hit the
bar and withdrew Sutton's goal lived a charmed
life and pitch invasion at the end you love to
see it so yeah and then Chesterfield 1997 reaching
the semi -finals going all the way playing Middlesbrough
in the semi -finals getting the last minute equaliser
to force a replay in the semi -final but unfortunately
lost in that replay. Good times. Cool. So where
can people watch it? If you're in England, the
BBC. Always the BBC. And ITV. It's on both three
to air now. Who cares? It's always the BBC. It's
always the BBC. If you're in America, I think
you will find it on ESPN. I think in some jurisdictions
it's on Satanta, which I didn't even know still
existed. Oh, really? Yeah. Neither did I. That's
right. New Zealand, you will find it on Sky.
Australia apparently is Optus. Cool. Just trying
to see if I can find Ireland for anybody that's
interested in Ireland. Do they know about BBC
Signal? I'm not sure. I can't find Ireland, which
is annoying. But I'm sure the people in Ireland
who like football, who may or may not listen
to this, will be able to find the FA Cup final
if they want to watch it. I'm pretty sure, yes.
Anyway. But yeah, so there we are. And so that
only leaves us to preview where we're going next
week. Yes, which I'm superbly excited about because
I recorded the intro to this about six weeks
ago. I'm so excited about it. So next week. it's
the well primarily the crown in the jewel of
the formula one calendar to finally give us a
chance to talk about formula one it's the monaco
grand prix uh but also because uh i love overstretching
us and doing more sports than we can possibly
handle in one episode we will also be uh passing
you know passing a bit of comment on the other
events in the triple crown of motorsport which
are the indy 500 and the 24 hours of le mans
talking about the drivers who've attempted all
three, the one who succeeded, and the ones who
have got oh so close, as well as focusing mainly
on Monaco, which, say what you want about the
race, it's still a hell of an event. Yeah, and
to end on a deliberate and sickly pun, you'll
be driving that episode, I think. Wee. I can't
wait. I'm very excited. So yeah, if you're interested
in that, join us then. but until next week goodbye
Jack goodbye Ben see you later see you later
Yet again, thank you for listening to the Sporting
Almanac podcast. Your support really means the
world to us. If you enjoyed it, give us a like,
a subscriber, a rating, wherever you get your
podcasts from. But most importantly, as ever,
please tell your friends. There's no better advertising
than word of mouth. It costs nothing and it really
does make a difference. Our theme tune is Oh
Yeah by Hermione Productions. You can find us
on Bluesky at the Sporting Almanac or drop us
an email at sportingalmanacpodcast .gmail .com.
We'll see you next week on the streets of Monte
Carlo. But until then, stay curious. Sport is
nothing without the stories that make it. Goodbye.