WEBVTT

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Once upon a time, on fields of prim and proper

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privilege, a people's game was bound in laws

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and a silver cup was cast for gentlemen. But

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in factory towns beneath smoky skies, men with

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calloused hands and muddy boots dared to dream

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that this could be their fairy tale, and with

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Olympic toil they made the cup their own. When

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the war drums beat, the story changed. Fields

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stood silent, factories left still, and so Britain's

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daughters laced their boots, filling the void,

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filling seats as well. They danced in bonnets

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and heavy boots, thrilling crowds and gathering

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charity gold, but big bad men with suits and

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champagne flutes sent them off to fifty winters

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out in the cold. With daughters sidelined, sons

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arose, under Wembley Tower's bluebird sang. Wizards

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weaved, saints and black cats soared, and cannons

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roared a fourteen-gun salute. The fairy tale

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dreams lived on for the sons, because for every

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cobbler bested, there were lilywhite screamers

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and amber invasions, Spireites in dreamland

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and unstoppable imps. Dark days too, pain, death

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and blame, and never-ending fights for justice.

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The people, together, reminding the big bad men

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to never forget who this game belongs to. Slowly

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and surely, the daughters built back. No white

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knight needed to save this story. Just lioness

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roars, a century in the making. Tens of thousands

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once more crowning queens in glory. Now under

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equal blue skies, the final call to all. Peasants,

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princesses, dreamers and giant slayers are in

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this fabled land of football fairy tale. No result

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is beyond imagination. This is the Sporting Almanac

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Podcast. afternoon jack afternoon ben how are

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you today yeah i'm good thank you um i am buzzing

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for this week's episode i'm not gonna lie to

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you uh this is our first love boyhood dreams

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you know our wheelhouse your wheelhouse specifically

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in terms of the history of it all uh but yeah

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this is this is one of the great the great sporting

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weeks all the criticism about the competition's

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not like what it used to be It's lost its importance,

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or whatever else people say. Nonsense. As a kid,

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if I was dreaming about football, I was dreaming

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about lifting the FA Cup at Wembley. Getting

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given the FA Cup and lifting it. Yeah, mate.

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The FA Cup, that's where we are, if anybody hasn't

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already read between the lines. We're going to

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Wembley. The famous Wembley. The Arch. What was

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the Towers previously, but now the Arch. objectively

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a great sporting weekend and subjectively for

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us still a great sporting weekend our favorite

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arguably well we'll see we'll see on saturday

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uh saturday evening how great it is could be

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very great could be very very great um should

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we start there should we start with the first

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well with this year's fa cup just to put it into

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context yeah so this year's fa cup final is on

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saturday i believe it's a 4 30 kickoff although

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they can't bloody make their minds up what time

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it kicks off. But it's Crystal Palace versus

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Manchester City. All the neutrals are supporting

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Crystal Palace. Anyone who's a Man City fan will

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probably be supporting Man City, as you'd expect,

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but we'll forgive them for that this weekend.

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I like an underdog reaching the final. I say

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an underdog. Palace are a well -established Premier

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League team. They're a good team. They're solidly

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mid -table, but they've never won anything. Nope.

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Never won anything. So when we say underdog,

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let's put that into proper context for people.

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Crystal Palace Football Club have never won any

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trophies. Ever. And they are in the final of

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the FA Cup. There's been no trophy worth winning

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in world football that Manchester City haven't

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won in the past five years. Let alone in the

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rest of their history. And they've done it in

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such a romantic way. Bankrolled by... Rags to

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riches. By a Middle Eastern state. It's just

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what football was made for. Oh, sarcasm. Yeah.

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Well, it's very apt, actually, that that is the

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matchup for this FA Cup final, in my opinion,

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and probably yours too, because it really is

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kind of exactly what makes everybody fall in

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love with the FA Cup, because it is synonymous

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with giant killings and things like that, underdog

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stories, and we're going to talk about some of

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them. All the way to the final, yeah. Yeah, exactly.

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And Palace going up against a team that's never

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won anything before, that has a proud history,

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is a well -established Premier League club now,

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has some very good players in its own right,

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but a club that's never won anything in its history

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going up against a superpower that's been bankrolled

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to all the success it could possibly wish for

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in the last 10 years. Yeah, won two FA Cups in

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that time as well, and that's probably the competition

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it's been least successful in. relatively speaking

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other than champions league which they've only

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won once but apart from that yeah four four premier

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leagues in a row until this season yeah they

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are a dominant force in english football and

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crystal palace are the plucky underdogs in this

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case although they've got some very good players

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so i'm looking forward to it it'll be good it

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will be very good and um and the women's fa cup

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final the following day yeah uh the women's fa

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cup final is on sunday And that is Chelsea versus

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Manchester United. And that is at 1 .30 on Sunday

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for some reason. And not a dissimilar matchup.

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I mean, Manchester United are a huge footballing

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institution on the men's side of things. They

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have a good women's team, but not a great women's

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team. And Chelsea are a women's juggernaut. Yes.

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I mean, it's not quite the same because Manchester

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United are also the defending champions. But

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Chelsea have won multiple FA Cups. I need to

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get my stats out, really, but I think they've

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won three in a row recently. So, yeah, they are

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the single dominant force. Yeah, Chelsea are

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all conquering at the moment. Man United are

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good, that's the thing. They are good, but they

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are certainly going into this as the underdogs,

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even if they are the holding favourite. All we're

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saying is if you're neutral in picking a team,

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though, it wouldn't always be something we'd

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encourage. supporting Manchester United I think

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is okay this year just as it was when they were

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playing Man City last year and I kept telling

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myself that over and over yeah but yeah Chelsea

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won three in a row and Manchester United won

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last season so these two teams in particular

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have both at least one of them have been in the

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past four finals and Chelsea Manchester United

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was in fact the final two years ago as well Chelsea

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being successful on that day so either way be

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a good game It will be. And it's cool that they're

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being played on the same weekend. It hasn't always

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been the case. Very much not. As I'll get into,

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the Women's FA Cup's only been at Wembley for

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not too many years. I think, I want to say 2015

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was the first one. Yep, which unsurprisingly

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Chelsea won. As I'll also get into, the attendances,

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they're really starting to match the men's final

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attendances now. 76 ,000 there last year, 77

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,000 there the year before. Massive attendances

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in terms of women's club football. Yeah, it's

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cool. It's definitely growing exponentially and

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long may that continue. Right, I mean, I guess

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the challenge for this episode, Jack, is going

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to be transmitting our enthusiasm for this tournament,

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this event, to anyone who cares to listen. Without

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going to two hours again. Yeah, exactly. This

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is obviously a subject that me and you are a

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bit more familiar with compared to, say, our

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ice hockey episode or even some of the horse

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racing ones. So I think the best place to start

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is at the beginning, as usual. In the beginning.

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And you take the lead on this because you are

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our FA Cup historian and you can probably do

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this more succinctly than I can and with more

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panache and knowledge. I mean, you're setting

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me up for a fall there, but I'll do my best.

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I won't go through all the history of football,

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but in the beginning, there was football played

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as a popular sport by the masses, largely in

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the countryside, largely before the Industrial

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Revolution. You'd have whole villages. chasing

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a blown up pig's bladder or something you know

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across the entire village the goalpost will be

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one street corner on one side and then maybe

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a farmhouse or something on the other side several

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miles in between very little rules probably quite

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a lot of violence uh as tends to well as happened

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with many sports or as happened with a lot of

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recreation in the 19th century people lost their

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recreation time because the industrial revolution

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happened a lot of people moved to the cities

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They were working very long hours, which was

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gradually pared down. Gradually, they started

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getting time back. Gradually, half days on Saturday

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were the norm as opposed to just Sundays. Sundays,

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they always had free, but ball games on Sundays,

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church weren't into that. So once those half

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Saturdays appeared, once hours in the working

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week were limited, all of a sudden there was

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a chance for some recreation. But the opportunity

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had come that those sports, which they used to

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play en masse back in the day, had been... stratified

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into some rules and some codes and that was done

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not in the working class streets of manchester

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or preston or sheffield or anywhere else it was

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done as most english invented sports were at

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the english public schools at the um at the posh

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schools sons of rich folk codifying these rules

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or the masters of the houses codifying these

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rules playing the sports in all their certain

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way there was loads of different codes of football

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depending on what school you went to And eventually

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these were first codified into a single set of

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laws in 1848. I've not even got this written

00:10:42.549 --> 00:10:44.850
down. I'm such a nerd. Yeah, you are a nerd.

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The Cambridge rules, that was. This is the thing,

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isn't it? The overarching context is the Victorian

00:10:51.029 --> 00:10:53.730
brothers and sisters who are famed for quite

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a few poor segments of our history did give us

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a couple of rather wonderful things. And one

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of them, as you say, is sport generally most

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sports were codified in the in the 19th century

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uh and england's first love football yeah so

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they were codified by the public schools but

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as i'll come to they weren't popularized by them

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so in 1863 um the football association founded

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quite a lot of football clubs had already formed

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uh the oldest and most famous of these being

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sheffield football club which is the oldest football

00:11:25.679 --> 00:11:28.360
club on the planet in in the meantime in order

00:11:28.360 --> 00:11:30.919
to We get a semblance of structure and, more

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importantly, a sort of control of the laws of

00:11:33.120 --> 00:11:36.320
the game. The FA was founded. They put out their

00:11:36.320 --> 00:11:38.379
first laws of the game. People in Sheffield actually

00:11:38.379 --> 00:11:40.360
disagreed with those original laws. There was

00:11:40.360 --> 00:11:42.000
already a bit of a North and South divide going

00:11:42.000 --> 00:11:44.559
on there. But the important thing in terms of

00:11:44.559 --> 00:11:49.860
this episode is in 1871, a one Charles W. Alcock

00:11:49.860 --> 00:11:52.580
proposed the establishment of the FA Challenge

00:11:52.580 --> 00:11:56.220
Cup to the Football Association. They accepted.

00:11:56.639 --> 00:12:00.149
And in November of 1871, the first FA Cup tournament

00:12:00.149 --> 00:12:03.389
began. 15 teams entered. Only 12 teams ended

00:12:03.389 --> 00:12:06.590
up playing games. It was a bit shambolic at first.

00:12:06.750 --> 00:12:08.850
They didn't quite get the sort of giving teams

00:12:08.850 --> 00:12:11.629
a bye rule until a bit later. So you'd end up

00:12:11.629 --> 00:12:13.850
with essentially everyone would play a first

00:12:13.850 --> 00:12:15.169
round game. And then if you had an odd number

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of teams, a couple of teams would get a bye.

00:12:17.169 --> 00:12:18.809
Then everyone would play the next round. It was

00:12:18.809 --> 00:12:20.470
an odd number of teams. It got to the point teams

00:12:20.470 --> 00:12:22.210
were getting by through semifinals because there

00:12:22.210 --> 00:12:24.049
was three teams left in the semifinal stage.

00:12:24.669 --> 00:12:27.200
Even more shambolic than that. Queen's Park from

00:12:27.200 --> 00:12:30.679
Scotland entered the first tournament. Sacrilege.

00:12:30.679 --> 00:12:33.679
Some of the first few tournaments until the Scottish

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FA said to them, we'd rather you didn't do this.

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We'd rather you stayed and played here. But Queen's

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Park actually got to the semifinals without playing

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a game because everyone kept getting drawn away

00:12:44.340 --> 00:12:46.360
to them and no one could afford to get up to

00:12:46.360 --> 00:12:49.879
Scotland, up to Glasgow to play them. And then

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they got drawn against, I won't say the Wanderers,

00:12:54.379 --> 00:12:57.720
in the semifinals. and they went and played them

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and it was a draw so then the replay was put

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on for a few weeks later and queens park then

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declined to play that because they couldn't afford

00:13:06.840 --> 00:13:10.059
it so they dropped out without having lost the

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game or conceded a goal after a nil -nil draw

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actually i think queens park famously i don't

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think they conceded a goal in any competitive

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game for like the first four years of their existence

00:13:18.440 --> 00:13:20.600
or something and still managed to not win the

00:13:20.600 --> 00:13:23.940
fa cup first time around but i digress First

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FA Cup final was on the 16th of March 1872. It

00:13:27.519 --> 00:13:30.240
was the Wanderers versus the Royal Engineers

00:13:30.240 --> 00:13:34.039
at Kennington Oval in London. A very famous cricket

00:13:34.039 --> 00:13:39.000
ground nowadays. It is indeed. And it was 1 -0

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by the Wanderers with the winning goal being

00:13:41.080 --> 00:13:44.220
scored by one Morton Betts of the Wanderers who

00:13:44.220 --> 00:13:46.679
was actually playing under the pseudonym A .H.

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Checker because he was actually a bit of a ringer

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and he didn't want his real identity given away.

00:13:53.470 --> 00:13:56.809
That's so weird. Yeah, it was very limited. It

00:13:56.809 --> 00:13:59.370
was basically a sense of pride or sort of like

00:13:59.370 --> 00:14:02.929
courtesy, gentlemanliness, shall we say. Because

00:14:02.929 --> 00:14:04.669
after all, these were all amateur teams. I was

00:14:04.669 --> 00:14:07.129
going to say, it's very Sunday League. Yeah.

00:14:07.330 --> 00:14:11.049
Playing a ringer. These were teams in the early

00:14:11.049 --> 00:14:14.210
days largely made up of amateurs, largely made

00:14:14.210 --> 00:14:17.169
up of former public school players who simply

00:14:17.169 --> 00:14:20.769
put, did not need to be paid to play the game

00:14:20.769 --> 00:14:22.769
because they were perfectly wealthy already.

00:14:23.289 --> 00:14:27.610
either working good, respectable jobs, or more

00:14:27.610 --> 00:14:28.950
likely, if they've been to the public schools,

00:14:29.169 --> 00:14:32.549
living off daddy's money. So all was good there

00:14:32.549 --> 00:14:36.330
for them. So the early FA Cup was dominated,

00:14:36.389 --> 00:14:38.929
as I say, by amateur upper -class southern clubs,

00:14:39.070 --> 00:14:42.470
such as the Old Etonians, who won three tournaments

00:14:42.470 --> 00:14:45.929
in a row in the early days. This changed in the

00:14:45.929 --> 00:14:49.980
1880s when... Firstly, Blackburn Rovers became

00:14:49.980 --> 00:14:53.899
the first provincial club. I'll get into the

00:14:53.899 --> 00:14:55.559
professionalism question later, but the first

00:14:55.559 --> 00:14:57.220
provincial club, shall we say, to reach the FA

00:14:57.220 --> 00:15:01.240
Cup final in 1882, unsuccessfully. But then Blackburn

00:15:01.240 --> 00:15:05.039
Olympic reached the FA Cup final in 1883 and

00:15:05.039 --> 00:15:08.980
played Old Etonians and were the first team from

00:15:08.980 --> 00:15:13.820
outside of the southern old amateur system to

00:15:13.820 --> 00:15:16.299
win it, becoming the first northern side to win

00:15:16.299 --> 00:15:19.399
it in 1883. and was quickly followed up by Blackburn

00:15:19.399 --> 00:15:23.580
Rovers winning it in 1884, 1885 and 1886. So

00:15:23.580 --> 00:15:26.379
as you can imagine, the power had somewhat shifted

00:15:26.379 --> 00:15:29.379
from the south to the north. That must make Blackburn

00:15:29.379 --> 00:15:31.200
the only side to have ever won it three times

00:15:31.200 --> 00:15:35.559
in a row. Other than Old Etonians. Yeah. No one

00:15:35.559 --> 00:15:38.000
has since. Yeah, I was going to say. Arsenal,

00:15:38.179 --> 00:15:41.639
I know for a fact, have made three finals in

00:15:41.639 --> 00:15:43.580
a row, but we haven't won three in a row. No,

00:15:43.620 --> 00:15:45.379
they were the first team to win three in a row.

00:15:47.360 --> 00:15:48.899
They are the most recent team to win three in

00:15:48.899 --> 00:15:52.059
a row. I do apologize. So they were a side suspected

00:15:52.059 --> 00:15:54.919
but never proven to contain professionals when

00:15:54.919 --> 00:15:57.179
they won it for the first time in 1884. And the

00:15:57.179 --> 00:15:59.679
reason this was controversial is because in 1884,

00:15:59.820 --> 00:16:01.960
another Northern team, another Northern team

00:16:01.960 --> 00:16:04.039
who was still playing, just like Blackburn Rovers,

00:16:04.159 --> 00:16:06.860
Preston North End, were expelled from the FA

00:16:06.860 --> 00:16:09.679
Cup after admitting to paying players. Basically,

00:16:09.879 --> 00:16:11.480
they got asked, are you paying players? They

00:16:11.480 --> 00:16:14.580
said yes, but so is everyone else. And they got

00:16:14.580 --> 00:16:17.360
kicked out, obviously. Blackburn Rovers, never

00:16:17.360 --> 00:16:19.759
got proven. Was that the Preston North End Invincibles?

00:16:20.559 --> 00:16:23.100
Not quite, but we're nearly there. Around the

00:16:23.100 --> 00:16:27.299
same time, yeah, okay. Yeah, so, so yeah, Preston

00:16:27.299 --> 00:16:29.320
North End got kicked out, Blackburn managed to

00:16:29.320 --> 00:16:32.559
get away with it, but in 1885 anyway, I mean,

00:16:32.580 --> 00:16:35.159
things were happening, there was basically shamaturism

00:16:35.159 --> 00:16:37.919
as it was going on, people getting under the

00:16:37.919 --> 00:16:40.320
table payments, boot money as they called it,

00:16:40.379 --> 00:16:42.559
money left behind in their boots or being paid

00:16:42.559 --> 00:16:44.940
discreetly or given expenses that were far and

00:16:44.940 --> 00:16:48.759
above. what was happening and the the fa obviously

00:16:48.759 --> 00:16:51.879
was made up of largely ex -public school boys

00:16:51.879 --> 00:16:54.580
who detested this this we're going to get into

00:16:54.580 --> 00:16:56.139
this a lot with all different sports this is

00:16:56.139 --> 00:16:59.240
an age -old sort of arguments in english sport

00:16:59.240 --> 00:17:01.740
between amateurs and professionalism generally

00:17:01.740 --> 00:17:04.299
speaking professionalism run out one out the

00:17:04.299 --> 00:17:07.279
exceptions being in the case of rugby where the

00:17:07.279 --> 00:17:09.859
sport split into entirely and there was a professional

00:17:09.859 --> 00:17:12.200
version rugby league and an amateur version rugby

00:17:12.200 --> 00:17:15.210
union the latter remaining amateur until 1995,

00:17:15.630 --> 00:17:17.650
which is very impressive. But this is not the

00:17:17.650 --> 00:17:20.809
case for football. Association football, I should

00:17:20.809 --> 00:17:22.450
say, because rugby is, of course, rugby football,

00:17:22.690 --> 00:17:26.289
having originated at rugby school. Neither of

00:17:26.289 --> 00:17:29.509
which are called soccer. Neither of which are,

00:17:29.549 --> 00:17:32.950
generally speaking, called soccer. But anyway,

00:17:33.190 --> 00:17:35.809
so, as I said, Blackburn Rovers winning three

00:17:35.809 --> 00:17:38.470
in a row, and by the time they won their third,

00:17:38.589 --> 00:17:41.809
professionalism had been legalised, albeit reluctantly,

00:17:41.829 --> 00:17:45.230
by the FA. who could see where the tide was turning.

00:17:45.809 --> 00:17:48.829
So in 1888, the great Preston North End team

00:17:48.829 --> 00:17:52.410
reached the final. They were undefeated in 42

00:17:52.410 --> 00:17:56.170
matches, having beaten Hyde 26 -0 in one of the

00:17:56.170 --> 00:17:59.269
rounds. And they had the gall to ask for a photo

00:17:59.269 --> 00:18:01.990
with the trophy before the final, to which the

00:18:01.990 --> 00:18:04.650
referee responded, hadn't you better win it first?

00:18:05.190 --> 00:18:08.029
West Bromwich Albion won that game 2 -1. Yes.

00:18:08.029 --> 00:18:12.160
Preston lost. I love that. However... The beauty

00:18:12.160 --> 00:18:14.220
of the Cup, that's exactly what this tournament

00:18:14.220 --> 00:18:17.519
is all about, humbling people. Their first loss

00:18:17.519 --> 00:18:21.480
in 42 games and off their pedestal. However,

00:18:21.700 --> 00:18:24.880
1888 -1889 was the first year of the Football

00:18:24.880 --> 00:18:27.059
League, the first year of what was then Division

00:18:27.059 --> 00:18:29.299
1, what you would now call the Premier League,

00:18:29.420 --> 00:18:31.640
and Preston North End did in fact win that, and

00:18:31.640 --> 00:18:33.160
they won the FA Cup that season as well, becoming

00:18:33.160 --> 00:18:36.500
the first team to win the FA Cup double, which

00:18:36.500 --> 00:18:38.599
is something we might get into again, which is

00:18:38.599 --> 00:18:41.150
when you win the League and the FA Cup. in the

00:18:41.150 --> 00:18:43.869
same season as Arsenal have before, as Liverpool

00:18:43.869 --> 00:18:48.650
have before. It's a coveted domestic title, isn't

00:18:48.650 --> 00:18:52.150
it, basically? Yeah, it's relatively rare. I

00:18:52.150 --> 00:18:53.809
think Man City were obviously the last team to

00:18:53.809 --> 00:18:56.930
do it, along with the Champions League as well

00:18:56.930 --> 00:18:59.150
that season, but it doesn't happen too often.

00:19:00.309 --> 00:19:03.569
Yeah, so from there, generally speaking, the

00:19:03.569 --> 00:19:06.809
good thing about the FA Cup is, other than...

00:19:06.940 --> 00:19:09.259
Small things such as how they do the buys and

00:19:09.259 --> 00:19:11.200
actually learning how to draw a tournament properly.

00:19:11.900 --> 00:19:15.279
And replays. Replays have lessened and lessened

00:19:15.279 --> 00:19:17.960
over the years. In the beginning, if you drew

00:19:17.960 --> 00:19:20.240
a game, it would always be a replay and it would

00:19:20.240 --> 00:19:22.339
go on. If you drew again, second replay, third

00:19:22.339 --> 00:19:24.680
replay. If you drew a final, it would go to a

00:19:24.680 --> 00:19:26.640
replay and several finals have. I think the first

00:19:26.640 --> 00:19:30.960
one was 1970 and a couple more since then. I

00:19:30.960 --> 00:19:33.500
want to say most recently, did Arsenal go to

00:19:33.500 --> 00:19:36.220
a replay in 93? 93, we beat Sheffield Wednesday.

00:19:37.299 --> 00:19:39.759
Yeah, we did the domestic cup double that year,

00:19:39.819 --> 00:19:43.119
just if anyone cares. Yeah, so the first thing

00:19:43.119 --> 00:19:46.279
that... Just mention it. Yeah, that's the FA

00:19:46.279 --> 00:19:48.259
Cup and the League Cup in the same season. Well

00:19:48.259 --> 00:19:51.900
done, Arsenal. It's a long time ago, so it's

00:19:51.900 --> 00:19:53.799
not much of a brag. No, I was actually going

00:19:53.799 --> 00:19:56.099
to say this. I've had the privilege of watching

00:19:56.099 --> 00:20:00.259
Arsenal win, I think it's eight, seven or eight

00:20:00.259 --> 00:20:02.380
of their FA Cups, and I was alive for that one,

00:20:02.460 --> 00:20:04.700
but I don't actually have a memory of that because

00:20:04.700 --> 00:20:11.859
I was only... Five. My first memory is 98 Cup

00:20:11.859 --> 00:20:15.680
Double, League and FA Cup Double. Nicolas Anelka

00:20:15.680 --> 00:20:19.900
and Marco Marz beat Newcastle 2 -0. Yes, I remember

00:20:19.900 --> 00:20:21.400
that one too. In fact, I probably watched it

00:20:21.400 --> 00:20:26.519
with you. Yeah, probably. Yeah, good times. So,

00:20:26.579 --> 00:20:28.940
as I say, the tournament's largely saved the

00:20:28.940 --> 00:20:32.359
same replays. I think immediately after that,

00:20:32.420 --> 00:20:34.319
they got rid of replays in the finals, so finals

00:20:34.319 --> 00:20:36.640
went to extra time and penalties. Then they got

00:20:36.640 --> 00:20:38.579
rid of replays in the semi -finals. I think 1999

00:20:38.579 --> 00:20:41.940
was the last semi -final to go to a replay. You

00:20:41.940 --> 00:20:44.480
probably don't want me to mention it then, but

00:20:44.480 --> 00:20:46.680
that was Ryan Giggs' wonder goal in the replay

00:20:46.680 --> 00:20:50.140
to win it. Yes. Stop talking about that. Good

00:20:50.140 --> 00:20:53.680
goal, though. It was a good goal. A horrible

00:20:53.680 --> 00:20:58.380
person, but a good goal. Then it went from the

00:20:58.380 --> 00:21:00.140
quarter -final shortly after that, and now it's

00:21:00.140 --> 00:21:02.059
at the point where there simply aren't any replays

00:21:02.059 --> 00:21:05.009
anymore. extra time and penalties, which is sad,

00:21:05.130 --> 00:21:08.750
if you ask me. That's only because of the elite

00:21:08.750 --> 00:21:10.509
end of the game as well. It's just scheduling

00:21:10.509 --> 00:21:15.089
and the number of games that the best teams have

00:21:15.089 --> 00:21:18.410
to play. There's no reason to have got... The

00:21:18.410 --> 00:21:22.809
irony being that the lower leagues, or at least

00:21:22.809 --> 00:21:24.170
the lower professional leagues, certainly probably

00:21:24.170 --> 00:21:27.150
play more domestic league games, but don't play

00:21:27.150 --> 00:21:30.740
as many games because of... European tournaments

00:21:30.740 --> 00:21:33.619
and things like that so yeah and not advancing

00:21:33.619 --> 00:21:36.440
as far in cups generally yeah yeah and then obviously

00:21:36.440 --> 00:21:39.559
you have also the international game and so on

00:21:39.559 --> 00:21:41.720
and so forth it's a real shame because it was

00:21:41.720 --> 00:21:44.140
a it's one of the romances of the tournament

00:21:44.140 --> 00:21:47.220
historically isn't it it's like you go away to

00:21:47.220 --> 00:21:50.579
a to you know a team that you Well, actually,

00:21:50.660 --> 00:21:52.220
it probably works better the other way around.

00:21:52.279 --> 00:21:54.880
You'd be at home against someone, some superpower,

00:21:55.160 --> 00:21:57.539
and then you would snaffle a draw and get an

00:21:57.539 --> 00:21:59.279
away day where you get to go and play in a Premier

00:21:59.279 --> 00:22:01.039
League stadium and you're in a lower league team.

00:22:01.779 --> 00:22:06.200
Yeah. Big payday as well for the clubs. Yeah,

00:22:06.220 --> 00:22:08.299
obviously, everyone at the club's happy. Players

00:22:08.299 --> 00:22:11.680
get to go and play at Old Trafford or the Emirates

00:22:11.680 --> 00:22:14.279
or Anfield, some giant stadium you've been watching

00:22:14.279 --> 00:22:16.559
as a kid. The owners are happy because you also

00:22:16.559 --> 00:22:18.819
get a portion of the gate receipts as well in

00:22:18.819 --> 00:22:21.519
the cup. You get 25 % don't you? I think cup

00:22:21.519 --> 00:22:24.059
games deliberately give you way more allocation.

00:22:24.460 --> 00:22:28.279
Which for a non -league team or for a lower league

00:22:28.279 --> 00:22:31.680
team would pay the wages for a whole year. 25

00:22:31.680 --> 00:22:33.940
% somewhere like Old Trafford's gate receipts

00:22:33.940 --> 00:22:37.359
when they've got 76 ,000 people in. That'll keep

00:22:37.359 --> 00:22:41.089
you going. That will keep you going. Can I quickly

00:22:41.089 --> 00:22:44.910
add as well, Jack? Because you got us to professionalism.

00:22:45.029 --> 00:22:47.509
I think before we go on any further, I think

00:22:47.509 --> 00:22:50.950
the thing for anyone who's not initiated to the

00:22:50.950 --> 00:22:53.630
FA Cup, they need to appreciate and understand

00:22:53.630 --> 00:22:58.529
to grasp its romances. The professional game

00:22:58.529 --> 00:23:01.869
is only the tip of the iceberg in English football.

00:23:02.470 --> 00:23:07.130
So basically, if you're a member club, of the

00:23:07.130 --> 00:23:11.109
fa there is theoretically a route from whatever

00:23:11.109 --> 00:23:13.609
league you're in through to the premier league

00:23:13.609 --> 00:23:15.670
because it's called the footballing pyramid so

00:23:15.670 --> 00:23:19.549
you only have four professional leagues then

00:23:19.549 --> 00:23:21.170
you have effectively a semi -professional league

00:23:21.170 --> 00:23:23.869
which is progressively becoming mostly professional

00:23:23.869 --> 00:23:27.410
becoming yeah exactly becoming more more professional

00:23:27.410 --> 00:23:30.589
which is the um national league old school conference

00:23:30.589 --> 00:23:34.470
but thereafter the league system splits into

00:23:34.470 --> 00:23:37.190
effectively north and south and then it pyramids

00:23:37.190 --> 00:23:42.730
out exponentially to county level yeah it evenly

00:23:42.730 --> 00:23:44.690
pyramids out now which is something I've been

00:23:44.690 --> 00:23:48.349
reading into recently it's at level one of non

00:23:48.349 --> 00:23:50.569
-league so the national league it's one division

00:23:50.569 --> 00:23:53.109
then it's two divisions then it's four divisions

00:23:53.109 --> 00:23:57.349
then it's eight divisions so you know theoretically

00:23:57.349 --> 00:24:00.970
from level ten um you can level 10 of the football

00:24:00.970 --> 00:24:03.069
league so that's level six of the non -league

00:24:03.069 --> 00:24:05.190
you can get promoted all the way from there 10

00:24:05.190 --> 00:24:07.430
seasons in a row yeah you could theoretically

00:24:07.430 --> 00:24:10.210
end up in the premier league and you can enter

00:24:10.210 --> 00:24:13.509
the fa cup as well although level 10 teams don't

00:24:13.509 --> 00:24:16.329
necessarily get in it level 9 and above are guaranteed

00:24:16.329 --> 00:24:18.950
a place level 10 only get a place if a level

00:24:18.950 --> 00:24:22.190
9 team cannot compete for whatever reason But

00:24:22.190 --> 00:24:23.970
the point is that... There's a waiting list,

00:24:24.049 --> 00:24:26.430
basically. Yeah, if you're in the football pyramid,

00:24:26.609 --> 00:24:29.589
then you can theoretically get to the FA Cup

00:24:29.589 --> 00:24:34.210
final. You can play anyone in the football league

00:24:34.210 --> 00:24:38.390
pyramid. And you can get, in ideal circumstances,

00:24:38.750 --> 00:24:42.769
from the bottom to the top. And a contemporaneous

00:24:42.769 --> 00:24:47.730
example of that in sort of semi -terms is Wrexham.

00:24:48.349 --> 00:24:51.269
who have flown up through the leagues, obviously

00:24:51.269 --> 00:24:55.769
under the famous ownership of two Hollywood stars.

00:24:56.670 --> 00:25:00.230
Ryan Reynolds and Rob McElhenney. Yeah, and they've

00:25:00.230 --> 00:25:03.250
gone from the National League to the Championship

00:25:03.250 --> 00:25:08.009
in three straight years, which is hard. I mean,

00:25:08.049 --> 00:25:10.930
it's incredible. I know this is slightly getting

00:25:10.930 --> 00:25:12.569
off topic. Well, it's not. I mean, Wrexham do

00:25:12.569 --> 00:25:14.849
have a very good FA Cup history. despite never

00:25:14.849 --> 00:25:16.289
having won it, because obviously they've been

00:25:16.289 --> 00:25:18.430
a lower league team. They have a few giant killings

00:25:18.430 --> 00:25:21.230
under their belt, a few good cup runs. It is

00:25:21.230 --> 00:25:23.069
genuinely impressive what those two have done

00:25:23.069 --> 00:25:24.950
at the club, regardless of how rich they are.

00:25:25.349 --> 00:25:28.109
You cannot throw money at a football club and

00:25:28.109 --> 00:25:30.150
get a club free promotions in a row. You simply

00:25:30.150 --> 00:25:32.970
can't. It must be an incredibly well -run football

00:25:32.970 --> 00:25:34.549
club. That's all I'm going to say on the matter.

00:25:35.190 --> 00:25:38.769
Yeah, agreed. Welcome to Wrexham, if you need

00:25:38.769 --> 00:25:41.759
any more information. But yeah, I mean, just

00:25:41.759 --> 00:25:44.460
to round that off, what we're saying, everything

00:25:44.460 --> 00:25:47.920
we're talking about here is in that context.

00:25:48.000 --> 00:26:00.039
So it is the most amateurish levels that can

00:26:00.039 --> 00:26:05.000
play against the best of the best. you can get

00:26:05.000 --> 00:26:07.119
a european champion against like a university

00:26:07.119 --> 00:26:09.940
team and because there are some university teams

00:26:09.940 --> 00:26:12.619
in the football pyramid yeah there are and and

00:26:12.619 --> 00:26:15.359
anyone if you go far enough if you get to the

00:26:15.359 --> 00:26:17.720
the third round is the first round where the

00:26:17.720 --> 00:26:19.599
premier league teams and the championship teams

00:26:19.599 --> 00:26:21.900
the league below the premier league uh enter

00:26:21.900 --> 00:26:23.980
so if you get yourself to the third round and

00:26:23.980 --> 00:26:25.740
get yourself a lucky draw you can end up as a

00:26:25.740 --> 00:26:27.940
and it happens a lot a non -league team playing

00:26:27.940 --> 00:26:30.220
a premier league team and every so often the

00:26:30.220 --> 00:26:32.680
non -league team wins and we'll get into that

00:26:32.680 --> 00:26:36.319
a bit But I think most recently, Lincoln City

00:26:36.319 --> 00:26:40.759
knocked out Burnley in 2017. And before that,

00:26:40.880 --> 00:26:43.759
Luton knocked out... Who did they knock out?

00:26:43.900 --> 00:26:45.720
Norwich. They knocked out when Norwich were a

00:26:45.720 --> 00:26:48.140
Premier League team in 2013. And there was actually

00:26:48.140 --> 00:26:50.460
a player who played in both those games. And

00:26:50.460 --> 00:26:53.480
I forget who it is. But he played for Luton in

00:26:53.480 --> 00:26:54.960
the first one and was victorious. Then he played

00:26:54.960 --> 00:26:59.319
for Burnley in the second one. Didn't Lincoln

00:26:59.319 --> 00:27:01.829
make the... quarter finals yeah they made the

00:27:01.829 --> 00:27:05.650
quarters that's it yeah Andre Gray I think it

00:27:05.650 --> 00:27:08.990
was Andre Gray yeah so Andre Gray actually played

00:27:08.990 --> 00:27:11.069
in both those games once on the winning team

00:27:11.069 --> 00:27:12.869
once on the losing team which does make him the

00:27:12.869 --> 00:27:15.609
only person I think in history who's ever knocked

00:27:15.609 --> 00:27:17.529
out a Premier League team as a non -league player

00:27:17.529 --> 00:27:20.150
and be knocked out by a non -league team as a

00:27:20.150 --> 00:27:23.410
Premier League player that's fun there you go

00:27:24.589 --> 00:27:27.829
But yeah, so sorry, I sidetracked us slightly,

00:27:27.930 --> 00:27:31.410
but I thought it was important to contextualize

00:27:31.410 --> 00:27:35.130
why we love this tournament so much and why it

00:27:35.130 --> 00:27:39.329
captures the imagination so vividly. Well, I

00:27:39.329 --> 00:27:41.529
should say about this, like we obviously prepared

00:27:41.529 --> 00:27:44.710
a lot of notes in other episodes. I've not prepared

00:27:44.710 --> 00:27:46.569
a whole amount for this. I've only really prepared

00:27:46.569 --> 00:27:49.069
one thing, which I'll go into now because it

00:27:49.069 --> 00:27:50.829
sort of feeds on to the point we're at in history.

00:27:51.640 --> 00:27:53.700
It's quite nice just to be able to ad -lib and

00:27:53.700 --> 00:27:57.299
talk about something we love, honestly. It is

00:27:57.299 --> 00:27:59.420
very cool. As much as I love learning about sports,

00:27:59.500 --> 00:28:01.039
as much as I've loved learning about horse racing

00:28:01.039 --> 00:28:04.559
and learning about ice hockey, this is, yeah.

00:28:05.619 --> 00:28:08.980
It's nice. It is nice. Just to say that. So,

00:28:09.180 --> 00:28:12.000
do you want to, not a story. Yeah, it is a story,

00:28:12.039 --> 00:28:13.980
actually. Do you want a story? Yeah, I guess

00:28:13.980 --> 00:28:15.599
so. Because it carries straight on from where

00:28:15.599 --> 00:28:20.720
we were. So, we're up to, obviously, professionalism's

00:28:20.720 --> 00:28:22.940
kicked in. I'll take you forward a few years.

00:28:23.079 --> 00:28:27.619
We're up to 1914, 1915 season. And as anyone

00:28:27.619 --> 00:28:29.680
who knows anything about history will know, it

00:28:29.680 --> 00:28:31.559
was quite a seismic event going on in the world

00:28:31.559 --> 00:28:34.539
at that time. Some Serbians weren't too enamored

00:28:34.539 --> 00:28:38.359
by some Austrian guy. Yeah, pretty much. A very

00:28:38.359 --> 00:28:40.900
good summary. You nailed it there. Be a historian,

00:28:41.059 --> 00:28:45.460
Ben. So yeah, during the First World War, the

00:28:45.460 --> 00:28:47.619
landscape of British society obviously underwent

00:28:47.619 --> 00:28:50.359
huge transformations, but nowhere was this more

00:28:50.359 --> 00:28:52.890
visible. arguably, than the world of football.

00:28:53.109 --> 00:28:57.130
So the 1915 FA Cup final, which was between Sheffield

00:28:57.130 --> 00:28:59.650
United and Chelsea, which I believe Sheffield

00:28:59.650 --> 00:29:02.069
United won 3 -0. I've got that written down,

00:29:02.150 --> 00:29:04.509
just showing off again. You got it right. Became

00:29:04.509 --> 00:29:09.970
known as the Khaki final, the Khaki final, due

00:29:09.970 --> 00:29:11.970
to the high number of uniformed soldiers in the

00:29:11.970 --> 00:29:15.009
stands. It was a poignant and symbolic moment,

00:29:15.089 --> 00:29:18.269
which neatly captured the end of peacetime football.

00:29:18.809 --> 00:29:20.670
with the Earl of Derby, who presented the trophy,

00:29:20.950 --> 00:29:23.950
calling on anyone not yet in uniform to play

00:29:23.950 --> 00:29:26.690
a sterner game for England. Although it should

00:29:26.690 --> 00:29:28.490
be pointed out that was mostly drowned out by

00:29:28.490 --> 00:29:30.809
the fans cheering, but nevertheless made the

00:29:30.809 --> 00:29:34.789
papers. As the war intensified, obviously, more

00:29:34.789 --> 00:29:36.549
and more young men were being conscripted en

00:29:36.549 --> 00:29:39.549
masse to join the slaughter and the front lines,

00:29:39.670 --> 00:29:44.049
sadly. So football, men's professional football.

00:29:44.480 --> 00:29:47.880
was suspended in 1915 at the end of the 1914

00:29:47.880 --> 00:29:50.960
-15 season. Football did continue, but it was

00:29:50.960 --> 00:29:54.359
very, very heavily enforced amateur. And in fact,

00:29:54.359 --> 00:29:56.039
there were some teams who came afoul of that

00:29:56.039 --> 00:29:59.480
after the war. Leeds City ended up being disqualified

00:29:59.480 --> 00:30:02.140
from the league for paying their players during

00:30:02.140 --> 00:30:06.180
this amateur period and were reformed as Leeds

00:30:06.180 --> 00:30:08.779
United, that who are quite famous. Yeah, quite

00:30:08.779 --> 00:30:11.730
famous. um so yeah many players obviously left

00:30:11.730 --> 00:30:13.289
the pitch for the trenches and obviously many

00:30:13.289 --> 00:30:16.630
many never returned uh over 2 000 professional

00:30:16.630 --> 00:30:18.789
footballers joined the military and obviously

00:30:18.789 --> 00:30:21.609
many young men who were filling the terraces

00:30:21.609 --> 00:30:24.490
and local teams rosters were also lost to the

00:30:24.490 --> 00:30:27.190
horrors of the western front and the slaughter

00:30:27.190 --> 00:30:29.049
the mindless pointless slaughter but we'll get

00:30:29.049 --> 00:30:32.130
let's not get into that right now yeah that's

00:30:32.130 --> 00:30:36.579
uh We have a tendency to be depressing with some

00:30:36.579 --> 00:30:40.079
of our stories. I don't know if it's going to

00:30:40.079 --> 00:30:41.819
end happily, but let's not go to the trenches.

00:30:42.859 --> 00:30:46.779
This is good. It's hard to be positive about

00:30:46.779 --> 00:30:48.559
it. To be fair, you're going to be impressed

00:30:48.559 --> 00:30:50.440
I find some positivity in the First World War.

00:30:50.500 --> 00:30:52.380
It's very hard to be positive about that war.

00:30:52.859 --> 00:30:55.940
Nevertheless, with the male workforce decimated,

00:30:56.099 --> 00:30:59.279
literally, the people who stepped forward to

00:30:59.279 --> 00:31:02.150
cover were, of course, women. So women stepped

00:31:02.150 --> 00:31:03.990
forward to keep the wheels of the nation turning.

00:31:04.049 --> 00:31:05.829
They took up roles in factories, transportation,

00:31:06.430 --> 00:31:09.190
agriculture, munitions, previously obviously

00:31:09.190 --> 00:31:12.150
the exclusive domain of men. These munitions

00:31:12.150 --> 00:31:15.470
workers particularly, colloquially known as munitionettes,

00:31:15.670 --> 00:31:18.269
brought the same level of energy and camaraderie

00:31:18.269 --> 00:31:21.670
to their downtime, just as the men did, and chose

00:31:21.670 --> 00:31:24.109
the sport they most wanted to unwind, and that

00:31:24.109 --> 00:31:26.740
was particularly football. For the same reasons

00:31:26.740 --> 00:31:28.619
football is so popular today, because it can

00:31:28.619 --> 00:31:30.460
be played with anyone with a ball and a couple

00:31:30.460 --> 00:31:33.000
of jumpers for goalposts. It is a very accessible

00:31:33.000 --> 00:31:36.039
sport. So just like with the birth of the men's

00:31:36.039 --> 00:31:38.500
game, the popularity and organisation of women's

00:31:38.500 --> 00:31:40.059
football exploded during these years, mainly

00:31:40.059 --> 00:31:43.400
in industrial centres across the country, mainly

00:31:43.400 --> 00:31:46.480
built around teams working out of these factories,

00:31:46.700 --> 00:31:49.440
particularly. I thought you were going to say

00:31:49.440 --> 00:31:51.480
something then. No, no, I just think this is

00:31:51.480 --> 00:31:54.380
cool. I'm locked in. I'm just listening. Yeah,

00:31:54.440 --> 00:31:57.410
it's great. So one of the most significant examples

00:31:57.410 --> 00:32:01.069
of this early organisation was the Munitionettes

00:32:01.069 --> 00:32:04.829
Cup, officially titled the Tyne and Wear and

00:32:04.829 --> 00:32:08.029
Tease Alfred Wood Munition Girls Cup, which was

00:32:08.029 --> 00:32:11.150
launched in August 1917 in North East England,

00:32:11.289 --> 00:32:14.349
as you can imagine by the name. The competition

00:32:14.349 --> 00:32:18.789
was solely contested by women in factory teams,

00:32:18.910 --> 00:32:21.930
obviously composed of female war workers. The

00:32:21.930 --> 00:32:23.829
final of the inaugural tournament was played

00:32:23.829 --> 00:32:26.930
on the 18th of May 1918 and saw Blythe Spartans

00:32:26.930 --> 00:32:30.490
beat Bolcal Vaughan 5 -0 with the legendary Bella

00:32:30.490 --> 00:32:37.490
Rae, who incidentally scored 133 goals in 30

00:32:37.490 --> 00:32:39.990
games that season. She scored a hat -trick in

00:32:39.990 --> 00:32:43.150
the final. That's alright, isn't it? Yeah, there's

00:32:43.150 --> 00:32:46.329
a film about her, I think, or a series, was it?

00:32:46.589 --> 00:32:49.839
Warbella. That's literally like Roy of the Rovers

00:32:49.839 --> 00:32:53.299
kind of record. It's ludicrous. Absolutely ludicrous.

00:32:53.519 --> 00:32:56.140
And she's very, very well respected in her neck

00:32:56.140 --> 00:32:59.740
of the woods up in Blythe. I think Dan Burns

00:32:59.740 --> 00:33:01.299
talked about it quite a lot. I think he's from

00:33:01.299 --> 00:33:04.920
Blythe. Blythe being near Newcastle. Yes, yes.

00:33:05.259 --> 00:33:08.819
A massive footballing city. But one of the most

00:33:08.819 --> 00:33:10.700
impressive things about that final was it was

00:33:10.700 --> 00:33:13.519
played in front of 22 ,000 people in Middlesbrough,

00:33:13.619 --> 00:33:17.009
which was a pretty impressive turnout. obviously

00:33:17.009 --> 00:33:19.170
spoke volumes about the enthusiasm for the women's

00:33:19.170 --> 00:33:21.269
game. The women's game actually managed to reach

00:33:21.269 --> 00:33:23.809
international levels before the war ended. On

00:33:23.809 --> 00:33:27.289
Boxing Day 1917, a representative team from England

00:33:27.289 --> 00:33:29.569
took on a side from Ireland in front of 20 ,000

00:33:29.569 --> 00:33:31.390
spectators, which again is another very good

00:33:31.390 --> 00:33:33.130
turnout. I don't know what the score of that

00:33:33.130 --> 00:33:36.650
was though, sorry. I'm sure it was played in

00:33:36.650 --> 00:33:39.369
really good faith. The Irish and English probably

00:33:39.369 --> 00:33:42.890
getting on famously at that hit. In 1917? Oh

00:33:42.890 --> 00:33:45.250
yes. Nothing at all going on in the world then.

00:33:45.730 --> 00:33:48.410
Which would keep them from a sense of friendship.

00:33:48.809 --> 00:33:50.609
There's an irony there for anyone who doesn't

00:33:50.609 --> 00:33:52.069
understand that it's the same year as the Easter

00:33:52.069 --> 00:33:56.009
Risings where the Irish revolted against English

00:33:56.009 --> 00:33:58.509
rule. Not for the first time, not for the last

00:33:58.509 --> 00:34:02.410
time. So yeah, among the many teams formed during

00:34:02.410 --> 00:34:04.809
this era, none was more famous or more influential

00:34:04.809 --> 00:34:08.449
than the Dick Kerr Ladies FC who were based in

00:34:08.449 --> 00:34:11.929
Preston and founded in 1917. consisting of female

00:34:11.929 --> 00:34:14.690
workers from Dick Kerr & Co. Munitions Factory,

00:34:14.889 --> 00:34:17.130
and the comma is in their name, so it's Dick,

00:34:17.170 --> 00:34:20.489
Kerr, Ladies FC, which is fun. I don't know why

00:34:20.489 --> 00:34:23.110
I like that so much. They're from the Dick Kerr

00:34:23.110 --> 00:34:25.530
& Co. Munitions Factory and quickly rose to prominence

00:34:25.530 --> 00:34:28.090
as arguably the most successful and well -known

00:34:28.090 --> 00:34:30.449
women's team of the 20th century. In their very

00:34:30.449 --> 00:34:32.730
first match, they had a crowd of 10 ,000 and

00:34:32.730 --> 00:34:35.530
raised £600 for charitable causes, which is the

00:34:35.530 --> 00:34:38.530
equivalent of £35 ,000 today. That ain't bad.

00:34:38.690 --> 00:34:41.659
That isn't bad. They existed for 48 years, and

00:34:41.659 --> 00:34:46.340
in that time they played 755 games, winning 682

00:34:46.340 --> 00:34:49.119
of them, drawing 39 and losing just 34, which

00:34:49.119 --> 00:34:51.719
frankly is Harlem Globetrotter levels of dominance.

00:34:52.019 --> 00:34:53.519
I was going to say, that makes the All Blacks

00:34:53.519 --> 00:34:57.579
look unsuccessful. Yeah. Yeah, good team. Their

00:34:57.579 --> 00:34:59.840
early matches often drew crowds in the tens of

00:34:59.840 --> 00:35:02.179
thousands, but famously one match against St.

00:35:02.239 --> 00:35:05.380
Helen's Ladies in December 1920 was played in

00:35:05.380 --> 00:35:08.380
front of 53 ,000 spectators at Goodison Park.

00:35:09.119 --> 00:35:12.280
which was an attendance figure for a women's

00:35:12.280 --> 00:35:15.000
club match that wouldn't be exceeded until Atletico

00:35:15.000 --> 00:35:17.980
Madrid played Barcelona in front of 60 ,000 spectators

00:35:17.980 --> 00:35:22.880
at the Metropolitano in 2019. Which is ridiculous.

00:35:23.199 --> 00:35:25.039
That is ridiculous. And wouldn't be matched in

00:35:25.039 --> 00:35:27.099
England until Arsenal versus Wolfsburg at the

00:35:27.099 --> 00:35:31.340
Emirates in front of 60 ,000 in 2023. Which is

00:35:31.340 --> 00:35:34.840
mad. Two years ago. Yeah. So they beat a French

00:35:34.840 --> 00:35:38.719
11 2 -0 in 1920 in front of 25 ,000 spectators

00:35:38.719 --> 00:35:40.579
in Preston, which was actually a record attendance

00:35:40.579 --> 00:35:42.900
for Deepdale at the time. The team were known

00:35:42.900 --> 00:35:45.079
for their fast and skillful play, excellent teamwork.

00:35:45.400 --> 00:35:47.280
They wore black and white striped jerseys with

00:35:47.280 --> 00:35:49.980
a Union Jack on the breast, blue shorts, and

00:35:49.980 --> 00:35:52.019
completed their look with striped hats covering

00:35:52.019 --> 00:35:54.539
their hair, which they all hated, but was a necessary

00:35:54.539 --> 00:35:57.780
evil at the time, due to obviously the inherent

00:35:57.780 --> 00:36:00.760
conservatism. They also contributed most of the

00:36:00.760 --> 00:36:02.559
players to an England 11 that beat Scotland.

00:36:03.159 --> 00:36:07.440
Scotland 11, 22 -0 that year as well. Nice. Was

00:36:07.440 --> 00:36:10.780
it a 90 -minute game? I think it was 90 minutes.

00:36:10.900 --> 00:36:13.159
They changed some of the rules. They changed

00:36:13.159 --> 00:36:15.280
the pitch dimensions, made it slightly smaller,

00:36:15.400 --> 00:36:17.880
and they made the ball lighter, which actually

00:36:17.880 --> 00:36:19.539
is legitimate because the balls in those days

00:36:19.539 --> 00:36:24.500
weighed an absolute ton. I was just trying to

00:36:24.500 --> 00:36:28.880
gauge how much of a butchering it was. I don't

00:36:28.880 --> 00:36:30.679
think there's any way that can't be a butchering.

00:36:32.010 --> 00:36:35.809
called off early probably should have been. So

00:36:35.809 --> 00:36:37.610
anyway, they were initially quite well supported

00:36:37.610 --> 00:36:40.250
by governments and the press due to their fundraising

00:36:40.250 --> 00:36:42.710
and the backing of the private companies that

00:36:42.710 --> 00:36:45.050
formed them as well. They even found support

00:36:45.050 --> 00:36:47.130
from a very unlikely source when trying to play

00:36:47.130 --> 00:36:55.489
a pioneering floodlit night match in 1920 with

00:36:55.489 --> 00:36:58.849
repurposed anti -air spotlights as floodlights

00:36:58.849 --> 00:37:01.800
and they had to seek permission from the secretary

00:37:01.800 --> 00:37:03.639
of defence at the time, whose name was Winston

00:37:03.639 --> 00:37:05.679
Churchill, and they got permission from him to

00:37:05.679 --> 00:37:08.960
do that. That's weird, yeah, that's kind of cool.

00:37:09.639 --> 00:37:12.780
So, here, I'm sure you can imagine where this

00:37:12.780 --> 00:37:15.800
is going, but despite their popularity and early

00:37:15.800 --> 00:37:19.179
support, and women's football generally has popularity

00:37:19.179 --> 00:37:23.719
and early support, it faced enormous and unsurprising

00:37:23.719 --> 00:37:27.579
institutional resistance. In 1921, at the height

00:37:27.579 --> 00:37:29.139
of their success, and at the time they were packing

00:37:29.139 --> 00:37:32.500
Division 1 stadiums to the rafters, The FA, the

00:37:32.500 --> 00:37:35.199
Football Association, ruled that sport was quote

00:37:35.199 --> 00:37:38.199
-unquote unsuitable for women and accused them

00:37:38.199 --> 00:37:40.000
of keeping too much money raised in expenses

00:37:40.000 --> 00:37:42.599
and not donating enough to charity. Essentially

00:37:42.599 --> 00:37:46.360
the same thing they got Leeds City for. Something,

00:37:46.360 --> 00:37:49.760
of course, keeping too much money in expenses

00:37:49.760 --> 00:37:51.360
and not donating enough to charity, something

00:37:51.360 --> 00:37:53.360
that the men at the FA can never be accused of,

00:37:53.400 --> 00:37:54.860
of course. Yeah, I was going to say the irony

00:37:54.860 --> 00:37:59.989
in that accusation. Yeah. So by being excluded,

00:38:00.130 --> 00:38:01.670
by being kicked out, this banned them from using

00:38:01.670 --> 00:38:04.070
any grounds of any affiliated club and effectively

00:38:04.070 --> 00:38:05.909
pushed the women's game into the margins for

00:38:05.909 --> 00:38:09.530
half a century. Jesus. The Dick Curl ladies carried

00:38:09.530 --> 00:38:11.309
on playing, as I said. They carried on touring,

00:38:11.409 --> 00:38:13.949
using smaller venues, but still attracting large

00:38:13.949 --> 00:38:16.769
crowds. They also toured internationally, which

00:38:16.769 --> 00:38:19.150
included, this is really cool, a tour to the

00:38:19.150 --> 00:38:21.789
United States in 1922, where they played nine

00:38:21.789 --> 00:38:25.050
matches against men's teams composed of former

00:38:25.050 --> 00:38:27.579
professional players from... the British Isles

00:38:27.579 --> 00:38:30.659
who had emigrated, and national -level athletes.

00:38:30.739 --> 00:38:33.420
Well, they played nine matches against men's

00:38:33.420 --> 00:38:34.880
teams composed of former professional players

00:38:34.880 --> 00:38:37.719
and national -level athletes. They faced strong

00:38:37.719 --> 00:38:39.659
opposition, which included, as I said, former

00:38:39.659 --> 00:38:41.980
Football League players who had emigrated to

00:38:41.980 --> 00:38:43.840
the United States, and at least one male player

00:38:43.840 --> 00:38:45.920
who would go on to appear at the 1930 World Cup

00:38:45.920 --> 00:38:48.320
for the United States. Despite this, they held

00:38:48.320 --> 00:38:50.219
their own. Three wins, three draws, three losses.

00:38:51.280 --> 00:38:53.699
American newspapers lauded them, with the Fall

00:38:53.699 --> 00:38:55.619
River Evening Herald calling their visit one

00:38:55.619 --> 00:38:58.190
of the biggest things in apologies for this word

00:38:58.190 --> 00:39:00.690
soccer ever to a visitor of the united states

00:39:00.690 --> 00:39:03.010
yeah we're in england now i can use football

00:39:03.010 --> 00:39:06.030
uh the praise their stamina their combination

00:39:06.030 --> 00:39:08.909
play and their speed and peter renzuli who was

00:39:08.909 --> 00:39:11.670
a goalkeeper for pats and fc remarked years later

00:39:11.670 --> 00:39:14.070
we were national champions but we had a hell

00:39:14.070 --> 00:39:16.769
of a job beating them it's impressive that's

00:39:16.769 --> 00:39:18.789
very impressive i was going to ask you if that

00:39:18.789 --> 00:39:21.530
had anything to do with the um the formation

00:39:21.530 --> 00:39:23.349
of the national women's soccer league in america

00:39:23.349 --> 00:39:26.289
because that's obviously massive um but A quick

00:39:26.289 --> 00:39:29.550
Google suggests that's actually more recent than

00:39:29.550 --> 00:39:33.710
I thought. I think so. So I doubt it. It's 2012

00:39:33.710 --> 00:39:35.530
that was set up, but I don't know if it had any

00:39:35.530 --> 00:39:39.889
predecessors, etc. But anyway, I digress. I just

00:39:39.889 --> 00:39:41.530
thought it would have been a nice link if it

00:39:41.530 --> 00:39:43.969
had been, but it's not. I think women's football

00:39:43.969 --> 00:39:45.670
in England is slightly behind the curve, but

00:39:45.670 --> 00:39:47.329
it's not that behind the curve. Unfortunately,

00:39:47.530 --> 00:39:50.130
the entire world was behind the curve, including

00:39:50.130 --> 00:39:51.489
the United States. The United States were ahead

00:39:51.489 --> 00:39:53.869
of the curve, but it's all very much relative.

00:39:54.969 --> 00:39:58.170
Anyway, so in 1926, following a dispute with

00:39:58.170 --> 00:40:00.230
the club's ownership, the team was renamed Preston

00:40:00.230 --> 00:40:02.630
Ladies FC, but continued playing, so it's all

00:40:02.630 --> 00:40:06.230
the same team. They continued until 1965, including

00:40:06.230 --> 00:40:09.949
winning in 1954 against a team from Paris, 4

00:40:09.949 --> 00:40:13.849
-0, with future Liverpool manager and 1965 FA

00:40:13.849 --> 00:40:16.010
Cup winning manager Bill Shankly refereeing the

00:40:16.010 --> 00:40:18.010
match, representing the winners with a trophy.

00:40:18.329 --> 00:40:20.869
Bill Shankly. Which is literally the only reason

00:40:20.869 --> 00:40:22.730
I mentioned that particular fact. I was going

00:40:22.730 --> 00:40:25.320
to say. Jack, being a Liverpool fan, anyone who's

00:40:25.320 --> 00:40:29.500
listening, Bill Shankly is a legendary Liverpool

00:40:29.500 --> 00:40:33.159
manager. He is everything Liverpool. He is the

00:40:33.159 --> 00:40:36.340
man who built the club, as it is today. So, the

00:40:36.340 --> 00:40:38.820
FA's ban on women's football lasted until 1971,

00:40:39.199 --> 00:40:41.619
and then following sustained pressure from players,

00:40:41.699 --> 00:40:45.360
campaigners, and fans, it was lifted. The same

00:40:45.360 --> 00:40:47.719
year saw the formation of the Women's Football

00:40:47.719 --> 00:40:49.880
Association Cup. That is the Women's Football

00:40:49.880 --> 00:40:53.349
Association Cup, as opposed to the Women's. football

00:40:53.349 --> 00:40:56.010
association cup there was a different organization

00:40:56.010 --> 00:40:58.110
called the women's football association god forbid

00:40:58.110 --> 00:41:00.250
the fa take them back onto their wing quite yet

00:41:00.250 --> 00:41:02.329
yeah so it was a women's football association

00:41:02.329 --> 00:41:04.969
cup which was the forerunner to the modern women's

00:41:04.969 --> 00:41:07.849
fa cup and is considered um when looking at stats

00:41:07.849 --> 00:41:10.349
and history these are considered fa cup games

00:41:10.349 --> 00:41:12.670
the first fa cup winner for women therefore was

00:41:12.670 --> 00:41:17.150
southampton women in fc in 1971 nice so throughout

00:41:17.150 --> 00:41:19.510
the 80s and 90s the women's game continued to

00:41:19.510 --> 00:41:23.570
grow but very slowly In 1992, the FA finally

00:41:23.570 --> 00:41:25.809
took full control of the women's game, taken

00:41:25.809 --> 00:41:28.590
over from the WFA, though this was merely a step

00:41:28.590 --> 00:41:32.489
towards full institutional recognition that was

00:41:32.489 --> 00:41:35.050
still to come. The 90s themselves saw the breakout

00:41:35.050 --> 00:41:36.989
of the women's game globally for the first time,

00:41:37.030 --> 00:41:38.750
but as I mentioned, England were behind the curve

00:41:38.750 --> 00:41:40.829
on that. The first Women's World Cup was held

00:41:40.829 --> 00:41:44.670
in 1991. So, as everyone, I'm sure, well, anyone

00:41:44.670 --> 00:41:45.949
who knows anything about football will be no

00:41:45.949 --> 00:41:48.989
doubt aware, the 21st century has seen a very...

00:41:49.320 --> 00:41:52.059
clear renaissance in women's football. The Women's

00:41:52.059 --> 00:41:54.980
Super League was launched in 2011 which brought

00:41:54.980 --> 00:41:57.699
professional status and broadcasting deals to

00:41:57.699 --> 00:42:00.139
the women's game. Attendances have surged as

00:42:00.139 --> 00:42:02.119
a result and matches now regularly take place

00:42:02.119 --> 00:42:04.239
in the same major stadiums once closed off to

00:42:04.239 --> 00:42:06.820
female players. The Women's FA Cup final is now

00:42:06.820 --> 00:42:09.539
held annually at Wembley Stadium and after COVID

00:42:09.539 --> 00:42:14.719
caused the postponement of the 2021 FA Cup final

00:42:14.719 --> 00:42:17.480
the match was eventually played. symbolically

00:42:17.480 --> 00:42:21.119
on december the 5th 2021 which is 100 years to

00:42:21.119 --> 00:42:23.059
the day since the fa banned women's football

00:42:23.059 --> 00:42:26.219
uh unfortunately ben close your ears uh chelsea

00:42:26.219 --> 00:42:29.360
beat arsenal that day in front of 41 000 spectators

00:42:29.360 --> 00:42:32.480
and chelsea again won in 2023 this time before

00:42:32.480 --> 00:42:38.119
a record -breaking 77 390 fans which really cemented

00:42:38.119 --> 00:42:40.920
the cup status as one of the premier events in

00:42:40.920 --> 00:42:43.659
the global women's football calendar or the global

00:42:43.659 --> 00:42:46.280
football calendar entirely so yeah there we go

00:42:46.590 --> 00:42:48.809
from the factory fields of wartime England to

00:42:48.809 --> 00:42:50.869
the bright lights of Wembley, women's football.

00:42:51.190 --> 00:42:54.210
Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. I do like that story.

00:42:54.349 --> 00:42:56.849
It is cool. It's a very cool story, particularly

00:42:56.849 --> 00:42:59.150
the way in which it emerged and then was obviously

00:42:59.150 --> 00:43:02.050
buried underground again. Um, you know, whilst

00:43:02.050 --> 00:43:05.630
the men were away and, um, just shows like that

00:43:05.630 --> 00:43:07.670
without getting too poignant about the whole

00:43:07.670 --> 00:43:10.130
thing, it does show what opportunity does because

00:43:10.130 --> 00:43:14.110
that is all, that is all. world war one was for

00:43:14.110 --> 00:43:16.449
women's football just an opportunity it's not

00:43:16.449 --> 00:43:18.409
because it's not because they couldn't do it

00:43:18.409 --> 00:43:20.469
or they're not good at it just they had a chance

00:43:20.469 --> 00:43:23.590
to play it seems like the most obvious thing

00:43:23.590 --> 00:43:26.349
in the world to say but the single way to improve

00:43:26.349 --> 00:43:28.309
a sport more than anything else to get a lot

00:43:28.309 --> 00:43:31.210
of people playing it yeah obviously there's an

00:43:31.210 --> 00:43:33.050
opportunity first world war there was a great

00:43:33.050 --> 00:43:34.929
demand for it there was a great opportunity for

00:43:34.929 --> 00:43:37.130
these women to play it they had downtime between

00:43:37.130 --> 00:43:41.469
their work in the factories to let off steam

00:43:41.469 --> 00:43:43.530
and that's what they chose to do because obviously

00:43:43.530 --> 00:43:45.670
it's a great game and it's an easy game to play

00:43:45.670 --> 00:43:47.889
it's a very accessible game and for the same

00:43:47.889 --> 00:43:50.989
reasons now I will say this right now watch out

00:43:50.989 --> 00:43:53.010
for the England women's team in a few years time

00:43:53.010 --> 00:43:55.730
because England managed to win the European Championships

00:43:55.730 --> 00:43:59.570
in 2021 or 2022 when it actually was I think

00:43:59.570 --> 00:44:04.570
on the back of this relatively slow curve relatively

00:44:04.570 --> 00:44:06.949
slow uptake of the game still managed to get

00:44:06.949 --> 00:44:08.730
a very very strong team together a very very

00:44:08.730 --> 00:44:11.559
well run team and won those Euros. As a result

00:44:11.559 --> 00:44:14.699
of that, I, as I mentioned several times, am

00:44:14.699 --> 00:44:18.059
a coach at a junior football club. Lots of girls

00:44:18.059 --> 00:44:20.460
have started playing. We've gone from having,

00:44:20.460 --> 00:44:23.559
I think, about four or five teams when I first

00:44:23.559 --> 00:44:28.039
joined, and the team may be maybe 40 girls playing

00:44:28.039 --> 00:44:32.599
at the club, to quadrupling that, at least now.

00:44:32.960 --> 00:44:36.800
The uptake has been ridiculous. The ability of

00:44:36.800 --> 00:44:39.590
those players has gone through the roof. The

00:44:39.590 --> 00:44:41.530
younger age groups, particularly at our club,

00:44:41.610 --> 00:44:46.250
are extremely good. They are getting less and

00:44:46.250 --> 00:44:49.809
less distinguishable from the boys at their age,

00:44:49.909 --> 00:44:52.969
and a lot of them are playing both in girls football

00:44:52.969 --> 00:44:55.070
and in mixed football. I should point out to

00:44:55.070 --> 00:44:56.730
anyone who doesn't know, there is no such thing

00:44:56.730 --> 00:45:00.309
as boys football in the United Kingdom, or in

00:45:00.309 --> 00:45:01.869
England, I should say. I don't know what it is

00:45:01.869 --> 00:45:04.449
in the other. I presume it's the same, but certainly

00:45:04.449 --> 00:45:06.889
in England, under the FA, there is no such thing

00:45:06.889 --> 00:45:11.260
as boys football. It is all mixed football. So

00:45:11.260 --> 00:45:12.920
boys and girls can play together. Obviously,

00:45:13.000 --> 00:45:15.179
the mixed teams are mostly boys and then the

00:45:15.179 --> 00:45:16.800
girls teams have the opportunity to play themselves.

00:45:16.840 --> 00:45:19.179
But there are a lot of very talented young girls

00:45:19.179 --> 00:45:21.099
playing in the mixed teams as well. And I've

00:45:21.099 --> 00:45:24.059
been lucky enough to coach them as well. So,

00:45:24.059 --> 00:45:26.639
yeah. So if anyone's come to this podcast thinking

00:45:26.639 --> 00:45:29.099
they're not going to have to listen to anyone

00:45:29.099 --> 00:45:31.000
championing women's football, you are horribly

00:45:31.000 --> 00:45:35.320
mistaken and we won't apologize for it. So, yeah,

00:45:35.480 --> 00:45:38.070
there we are. But if you're bothered about it,

00:45:38.110 --> 00:45:39.949
please feel free to go online and complain about

00:45:39.949 --> 00:45:42.090
it because there's things you can do to benefit

00:45:42.090 --> 00:45:43.869
the women's game. If you understand anything

00:45:43.869 --> 00:45:45.530
about the internet and understand what engagement

00:45:45.530 --> 00:45:48.429
does, if you don't want anyone to watch that

00:45:48.429 --> 00:45:49.909
highlight that you're complaining about, I'd

00:45:49.909 --> 00:45:51.530
recommend you don't complain about it, mate.

00:45:51.849 --> 00:45:54.170
From my point of view, you go ahead and complain

00:45:54.170 --> 00:45:57.909
about it. Honestly, if anyone thinks that women's

00:45:57.909 --> 00:46:00.809
football is going away in England, you are sorely

00:46:00.809 --> 00:46:03.610
mistaken. It has just begun. It is just getting

00:46:03.610 --> 00:46:06.090
started. England are going to be very, very good

00:46:06.090 --> 00:46:08.380
in about, Six or seven years' time. Just watch

00:46:08.380 --> 00:46:13.159
out. And if any father out there has a prodigal

00:46:13.159 --> 00:46:17.239
daughter who is showing immense talent in football,

00:46:17.360 --> 00:46:20.000
can I recommend Arsenal Women's Football Club

00:46:20.000 --> 00:46:23.619
as a potential academy steeped in history? And

00:46:23.619 --> 00:46:26.139
since we're on the FA Cup, can I just point out

00:46:26.139 --> 00:46:28.019
that we've made 17 finals in the most successful

00:46:28.019 --> 00:46:30.480
club in women's FA Cup history with 14 wins.

00:46:30.940 --> 00:46:35.010
So, yeah. 14 wins, eh? Same as the men. Exactly.

00:46:35.150 --> 00:46:39.070
A nice little symmetry. Our chance to slip in

00:46:39.070 --> 00:46:42.369
one of our first stats of the day. Ben has dropped

00:46:42.369 --> 00:46:44.789
in it. The most successful team in both the men's

00:46:44.789 --> 00:46:47.389
FA Cup and the women's FA Cup with 14 wins in

00:46:47.389 --> 00:46:51.690
both is Arsenal. Yeah. Men have made more finals.

00:46:51.789 --> 00:46:55.889
We made 21 finals. 114. That means they've lost

00:46:55.889 --> 00:46:59.190
more, Ben. It does, although we have a very,

00:46:59.230 --> 00:47:02.110
very good win rate in my lifetime. I think we've

00:47:02.110 --> 00:47:08.420
made... 9 finals. 1 -8. Yeah, I mean, even when

00:47:08.420 --> 00:47:11.739
Arsenal were struggling in the in -between period

00:47:11.739 --> 00:47:18.159
between Wenger and now, where you're good again,

00:47:18.460 --> 00:47:21.840
even then, you're still winning FA Cups. Arsenal's

00:47:21.840 --> 00:47:24.539
ability to get to the FA Cup final and win it,

00:47:24.619 --> 00:47:27.079
I don't know what it is, whether it's just coincidence

00:47:27.079 --> 00:47:30.119
or whether it's just the attitude of the club.

00:47:30.159 --> 00:47:31.840
It's a club that takes the competition seriously.

00:47:32.719 --> 00:47:36.199
There you are. 14 wins. I'm sure that there is

00:47:36.199 --> 00:47:40.539
an element of fortune, but it definitely is something

00:47:40.539 --> 00:47:43.800
that the club associates itself with quite heavily,

00:47:43.880 --> 00:47:47.860
which is probably part of the reason why I find

00:47:47.860 --> 00:47:50.360
this tournament so endearing generally, because

00:47:50.360 --> 00:47:52.059
obviously my team has been successful in it.

00:47:53.539 --> 00:47:57.519
But yeah, it is. No doubt that there's a dose

00:47:57.519 --> 00:48:00.599
of luck involved. Because it's all about draws.

00:48:00.719 --> 00:48:02.619
That's the other thing. It's a random draw. So

00:48:02.619 --> 00:48:07.119
why am I being magnanimous about that? It's because

00:48:07.119 --> 00:48:10.000
the FA Cup draw, there is no seeding system.

00:48:10.420 --> 00:48:13.159
So the two best teams in the tournament can technically

00:48:13.159 --> 00:48:14.820
draw each other at the earliest opportunity.

00:48:15.900 --> 00:48:19.219
And that often opens up a route to the final.

00:48:19.900 --> 00:48:23.579
I say often. It is not uncommon. It's not obviously.

00:48:24.239 --> 00:48:26.099
It's not a frequent occurrence that a lower league

00:48:26.099 --> 00:48:28.019
side makes the final or an underdog makes the

00:48:28.019 --> 00:48:30.440
final like Crystal Palace this year. But it is

00:48:30.440 --> 00:48:34.139
also not uncommon. It's not a freak event when

00:48:34.139 --> 00:48:38.179
it happens. No. So if you get a favourable draw,

00:48:38.320 --> 00:48:40.480
you can get to the final or you can get to the

00:48:40.480 --> 00:48:43.019
latter stages without having to beat too many

00:48:43.019 --> 00:48:46.800
sides that you would say are conventionally challenging.

00:48:48.000 --> 00:48:50.039
Yeah. I mean, you still have to beat them. Obviously,

00:48:50.119 --> 00:48:51.659
Crystal Palace have beaten plenty of good sides

00:48:51.659 --> 00:48:57.329
to get here. Not least in their semi -final when

00:48:57.329 --> 00:48:59.610
they knocked out Aston Villa in the Champions

00:48:59.610 --> 00:49:01.869
League. Not just knocked them out either, just

00:49:01.869 --> 00:49:11.309
squatched them. Funnily enough, one thing I mentioned

00:49:11.309 --> 00:49:13.349
before actually kind of helped contribute to

00:49:13.349 --> 00:49:16.110
Arsenal's first ever FA Cup win. If you recall,

00:49:16.250 --> 00:49:18.769
I said Leeds City got kicked out of the league

00:49:18.769 --> 00:49:22.530
in 1919. The lead city manager was a man called

00:49:22.530 --> 00:49:25.809
Herbert Chapman. And Herbert Chapman then went

00:49:25.809 --> 00:49:27.289
on to manage Huddersfield and won the FA Cup

00:49:27.289 --> 00:49:29.889
with them. And then went on to manage Arsenal.

00:49:30.289 --> 00:49:34.590
And in 1930, won the FA Cup with Arsenal. Arsenal's

00:49:34.590 --> 00:49:37.329
first FA Cup. And then promptly, unfortunately,

00:49:37.510 --> 00:49:39.809
passed away soon after that. There's a statue

00:49:39.809 --> 00:49:41.809
of a man built outside the Emirates Stadium.

00:49:42.809 --> 00:49:46.829
He is a much -loved character. I can go off on

00:49:46.829 --> 00:49:49.900
it. In terms of doing full episodes about people

00:49:49.900 --> 00:49:52.659
in football, you've got Johan Cruyff, who I'd

00:49:52.659 --> 00:49:55.079
definitely do a full episode on. Marcel Bielsa,

00:49:55.159 --> 00:49:56.920
who I'd definitely do a full episode on. Herbert

00:49:56.920 --> 00:49:58.440
Chapman, you could definitely do a full episode

00:49:58.440 --> 00:50:01.219
on. He revolutionised the game of football, his

00:50:01.219 --> 00:50:04.840
approach to football. I mean, the team's still

00:50:04.840 --> 00:50:08.039
effectively using his attacking system to this

00:50:08.039 --> 00:50:10.300
day, at least structurally, his attacking system.

00:50:10.880 --> 00:50:13.260
Tactically, the game has changed a lot. He's

00:50:13.260 --> 00:50:16.079
also the reason that Arsenal Underground Station

00:50:16.079 --> 00:50:19.719
is named Arsenal Underground Station. Oh, really?

00:50:19.960 --> 00:50:22.639
Yeah, I think he was the man responsible for

00:50:22.639 --> 00:50:26.800
that. I say responsible for it. I'm sure he wasn't

00:50:26.800 --> 00:50:29.179
the decision maker, but he was an influence in

00:50:29.179 --> 00:50:33.219
that coming about, I believe. Unless I've misunderstood

00:50:33.219 --> 00:50:35.400
my history, but I'm fairly sure that's right.

00:50:37.199 --> 00:50:39.519
Well, fair enough. So where do we go from here?

00:50:40.780 --> 00:50:43.820
where do we go from here well okay let's talk

00:50:43.820 --> 00:50:46.480
about the trophy because i've literally got the

00:50:46.480 --> 00:50:48.440
no twin in front of me and i'll forget to do

00:50:48.440 --> 00:50:52.519
it if i don't so there's been five trophies in

00:50:52.519 --> 00:50:56.099
the history of the competition uh the first one

00:50:56.099 --> 00:50:59.659
was in 1872 was called the little tin idol it

00:50:59.659 --> 00:51:01.800
was created by martin hall and co of sheffield

00:51:01.800 --> 00:51:04.139
for 20 pounds and all the clubs that entered

00:51:04.139 --> 00:51:06.699
the competition that year had to contribute i

00:51:06.699 --> 00:51:08.699
think a guinea whatever the heck a guinea is,

00:51:08.780 --> 00:51:13.440
towards that. So yeah, that's cool. That is cool.

00:51:14.019 --> 00:51:17.000
What is a guinea? I'm going to have a look. I

00:51:17.000 --> 00:51:18.619
want to say it's like a pound and a shilling

00:51:18.619 --> 00:51:20.179
or something. It's like just over a pound, something

00:51:20.179 --> 00:51:25.320
like that. But anyway, not used today. No. So

00:51:25.320 --> 00:51:28.800
that was the trophy until 1895 when Aston Villa

00:51:28.800 --> 00:51:32.800
came carelessly, had it stolen from them from

00:51:32.800 --> 00:51:35.059
a shop window display in Birmingham, as you do.

00:51:35.449 --> 00:51:37.989
The fief was never caught, although in the 1950s,

00:51:37.989 --> 00:51:40.650
a criminal claimed it was melted down for counterfeit

00:51:40.650 --> 00:51:43.550
coins. And Aston Villa were found £25 for its

00:51:43.550 --> 00:51:47.130
disappearance, presuming it accrued £5 worth

00:51:47.130 --> 00:51:51.090
of value in the 20 years it was being used. So

00:51:51.090 --> 00:51:54.210
in 1895, a new trophy, a replacement trophy in

00:51:54.210 --> 00:51:56.090
the same design, was commissioned and was in

00:51:56.090 --> 00:52:00.070
use for 15 years. It was retired later and it

00:52:00.070 --> 00:52:03.989
was later auctioned for £420 ,000 in 2005. There

00:52:03.989 --> 00:52:08.119
you go. But in 1911, the classic design, the

00:52:08.119 --> 00:52:11.960
design that's used today was designed and presented

00:52:11.960 --> 00:52:14.559
for the first time. Bradford jewellers Fattorini

00:52:14.559 --> 00:52:17.920
crafted the new, more robust trophy, which is

00:52:17.920 --> 00:52:20.820
the design which remains the same to today. It

00:52:20.820 --> 00:52:23.360
was first awarded to the winners of the 1911

00:52:23.360 --> 00:52:26.099
tournament, appropriately, Bradford City, with

00:52:26.099 --> 00:52:27.800
the trophy having been designed in Bradford.

00:52:27.920 --> 00:52:31.119
It surfed for 81 years and was retired in 1992,

00:52:31.440 --> 00:52:33.900
where it was very battered and bruised by them.

00:52:34.170 --> 00:52:36.690
It was valued at £1 million on the Antiques Roadshow,

00:52:36.769 --> 00:52:39.110
and some speculate it might originally have been

00:52:39.110 --> 00:52:41.409
a champagne cooler, given it's got decorative

00:52:41.409 --> 00:52:46.030
grapes on it. But it doesn't really matter. 1992,

00:52:46.429 --> 00:52:48.050
because it was so battered and bruised, they

00:52:48.050 --> 00:52:51.250
made a new one, which Liverpool captain Mark

00:52:51.250 --> 00:52:53.250
Wright was the first man to lift when they beat

00:52:53.250 --> 00:52:57.190
Sunderland in 1992. 2 -0. Ian Rush and Michael

00:52:57.190 --> 00:53:00.269
Thomas haven't scored the goals. The famous Michael

00:53:00.269 --> 00:53:02.429
Thomas. Oh yeah, shouldn't have mentioned him.

00:53:02.429 --> 00:53:06.849
That was an error. Yeah, he famously once scored

00:53:06.849 --> 00:53:08.929
against Liverpool to win the league title for

00:53:08.929 --> 00:53:15.030
Arsenal. With the last kick of the season. We

00:53:15.030 --> 00:53:18.150
do digress. Fever pitch. Yeah, neither of us

00:53:18.150 --> 00:53:19.949
remember that. We were alive for it, but we were

00:53:19.949 --> 00:53:23.630
very young. And then in 2014, exactly the same

00:53:23.630 --> 00:53:26.469
trophy, but a bit more material, a bit heavier,

00:53:26.650 --> 00:53:30.690
6 .3 kilograms, designed to withstand public

00:53:30.690 --> 00:53:33.670
appearances. So yeah, the one trophy lasted like

00:53:33.670 --> 00:53:37.110
80 years and the second trophy only lasted about

00:53:37.110 --> 00:53:40.349
30 years because it was touring so much and so

00:53:40.349 --> 00:53:42.809
many fans touched it and dropped it, I imagine.

00:53:42.869 --> 00:53:46.289
And the new trophy is built a bit heavier to

00:53:46.289 --> 00:53:50.289
desire to be able to be dropped by, you know.

00:53:50.759 --> 00:53:52.719
children and the like. Yeah, Arsenal captain.

00:53:52.900 --> 00:53:57.880
That's true. Obama Yang dropped it. But yeah,

00:53:57.940 --> 00:54:01.199
so it's only everyone loaned to the teams that

00:54:01.199 --> 00:54:03.039
win it and it has to be returned to the FA by

00:54:03.039 --> 00:54:04.840
March the 1st of the following year. So they

00:54:04.840 --> 00:54:06.860
get it for quite a fair bit of time. Ten months.

00:54:07.039 --> 00:54:09.219
That's quite cool. Nine months. I'm just going

00:54:09.219 --> 00:54:13.539
to throw a bone to our random enthusiasts out

00:54:13.539 --> 00:54:17.199
there. This time they're numismatists, I think.

00:54:17.360 --> 00:54:19.780
They're the people who collect coins. I found

00:54:19.780 --> 00:54:23.260
out what a guinea is. A guinea was worth £1 .01

00:54:23.260 --> 00:54:28.380
and equates to £1 .05 in modern money. And so,

00:54:28.500 --> 00:54:31.280
yeah, the clubs didn't have to contribute very

00:54:31.280 --> 00:54:35.119
much. And it also shows just how far it's come

00:54:35.119 --> 00:54:37.880
when you were telling us about how much the cups

00:54:37.880 --> 00:54:40.460
were auctioned off or valued at later on in the

00:54:40.460 --> 00:54:45.880
tournament's history. Yeah. Yeah, there you go.

00:54:46.840 --> 00:54:48.960
Entrenched. I will never... I will never remember

00:54:48.960 --> 00:54:51.619
that word you just said, but shout out to you

00:54:51.619 --> 00:54:56.460
coin collectors. And numismatist, if I'm pronouncing

00:54:56.460 --> 00:54:59.059
it correctly. I can't imagine the Venn diagram

00:54:59.059 --> 00:55:01.860
of people who collect coins and like this podcast.

00:55:02.500 --> 00:55:05.360
It's very far apart. Probably a complete circle,

00:55:05.500 --> 00:55:10.079
I imagine. Yes. Yeah, shout out to you, our core

00:55:10.079 --> 00:55:15.630
supporters, probably. Yeah, so. The trophy though,

00:55:15.809 --> 00:55:19.329
yeah. The trophy's an iconic trophy. It's the

00:55:19.329 --> 00:55:22.889
way it looks. Yeah, the way it's in parts as

00:55:22.889 --> 00:55:24.190
well. The way you've got the base, you've got

00:55:24.190 --> 00:55:26.329
the trophy, you've got the lid. It all separates

00:55:26.329 --> 00:55:31.090
out and confuses Arsenal captains in that one

00:55:31.090 --> 00:55:33.230
occurrence. They try to lift the whole thing

00:55:33.230 --> 00:55:36.230
up. I mean, I guess it's true for most modern

00:55:36.230 --> 00:55:39.110
sports these days, but the silhouette of the

00:55:39.110 --> 00:55:43.489
FA Cup is unmistakable. Yes, as all good trophies

00:55:43.489 --> 00:55:47.260
should be. Champions League trophy as a Premier

00:55:47.260 --> 00:55:51.000
League is. Silly crown on top. But the FA Cup's

00:55:51.000 --> 00:55:55.420
logo is just a silhouette of its trophy. Or it

00:55:55.420 --> 00:55:57.460
is just the trophy, a picture of it, depending

00:55:57.460 --> 00:56:03.360
on your preferred broadcaster. With a sponsorship

00:56:03.360 --> 00:56:08.179
slapped over the top? Naturally. Is it Emirates

00:56:08.179 --> 00:56:11.380
still? I think it is, yeah. They also sponsor

00:56:11.380 --> 00:56:15.079
Arsenal. They do. Oh, conspiracy theory. There

00:56:15.079 --> 00:56:18.380
we go. I also keep winning it. Weird that. I

00:56:18.380 --> 00:56:23.199
love a conspiracy theory. I'm just having a look

00:56:23.199 --> 00:56:27.760
at the sponsors for us. The Emirates, yeah, it

00:56:27.760 --> 00:56:33.139
is. So, I mean, I'll charge for a bit of the

00:56:33.139 --> 00:56:35.380
rest of the history. I think it would be a good

00:56:35.380 --> 00:56:38.239
idea now. So, first final at Wembley Stadium

00:56:38.239 --> 00:56:41.670
was in 1923. Bolton beat West Ham 2 -0. One of

00:56:41.670 --> 00:56:44.309
the goals was very controversial. Officially,

00:56:44.309 --> 00:56:47.630
126 ,000 attended. Mate, the White Horse final.

00:56:48.030 --> 00:56:50.170
The White Horse final. Actually, it was definitely

00:56:50.170 --> 00:56:53.170
over 200 ,000. It might even be as high as 300

00:56:53.170 --> 00:56:57.809
,000. Can I add some flavour to that? The White

00:56:57.809 --> 00:56:59.769
Horse final. I don't know why I went down rabbit

00:56:59.769 --> 00:57:01.750
holes with this because I think I love it for

00:57:01.750 --> 00:57:03.550
a couple of reasons. It's horses again, yeah.

00:57:03.650 --> 00:57:09.050
It's horses. It's post -World War I. It's indicative

00:57:09.050 --> 00:57:13.610
of the love that the English public have for

00:57:13.610 --> 00:57:17.869
this tournament and this event generally. And

00:57:17.869 --> 00:57:21.070
so, yeah, as you were just saying, Jack, like

00:57:21.070 --> 00:57:23.809
official capacity was, I think, 125 ,000 back

00:57:23.809 --> 00:57:27.070
in the day at Wembley. Obviously, it was terraces.

00:57:28.139 --> 00:57:31.199
make allowances for that um but the london underground

00:57:31.199 --> 00:57:35.719
that day sold more than 241 000 tickets from

00:57:35.719 --> 00:57:39.260
stations within london to wembley says it all

00:57:39.260 --> 00:57:41.280
doesn't it and that figure doesn't cover the

00:57:41.280 --> 00:57:43.199
people that traveled without a ticket because

00:57:43.199 --> 00:57:44.659
obviously it would have been people bunking trains

00:57:44.659 --> 00:57:47.300
it doesn't cover people who reach the stadium

00:57:47.300 --> 00:57:50.199
on by road or on foot and it doesn't include

00:57:50.199 --> 00:57:53.139
london buses which were described as overwhelmed

00:57:55.719 --> 00:57:58.559
On the day of the match, the gates opened at

00:57:58.559 --> 00:58:01.099
11 .30 a .m. Kickoff was obviously traditionally

00:58:01.099 --> 00:58:05.239
at 3 p .m. And by 1 .45, they had to be shut

00:58:05.239 --> 00:58:08.400
because the stadium was already full. And then

00:58:08.400 --> 00:58:10.639
people started gathering outside of it. So the

00:58:10.639 --> 00:58:14.679
fans rushed the gates at 2 .15. One of the spectators,

00:58:14.699 --> 00:58:17.940
Terry Hickey, who was interviewed, said later,

00:58:18.159 --> 00:58:20.940
to put it mildly, the whole thing was a bloody

00:58:20.940 --> 00:58:25.440
shambles. which I think is a very English articulation

00:58:25.440 --> 00:58:28.639
of the situation. The roads around the stadium

00:58:28.639 --> 00:58:30.659
were so blocked that the Bolton players had to

00:58:30.659 --> 00:58:33.300
abandon their coach a mile from the stadium and

00:58:33.300 --> 00:58:35.880
walk through the crowds to the game. And the

00:58:35.880 --> 00:58:38.239
stadium authorities were considering calling

00:58:38.239 --> 00:58:40.760
it off, but they feared the consequences of cancelling

00:58:40.760 --> 00:58:43.619
the FA Cup final and the angry response that

00:58:43.619 --> 00:58:46.349
that might provoke. And as you said, they think

00:58:46.349 --> 00:58:49.010
up to 300 ,000 people actually managed to gain

00:58:49.010 --> 00:58:51.610
entry. Terraces are overflowing to the point

00:58:51.610 --> 00:58:54.849
that the fans were on the pitch and the mounted

00:58:54.849 --> 00:58:57.389
police had to be brought in to clear the crowds.

00:58:57.449 --> 00:59:00.670
And this is where our protagonist, our hero,

00:59:00.809 --> 00:59:05.590
enters the fray. So, yeah, mounted police, as

00:59:05.590 --> 00:59:07.769
I say. And one of those police officers was a

00:59:07.769 --> 00:59:10.329
chap called P .C. George Scorori. I think I'm

00:59:10.329 --> 00:59:12.710
pronouncing his name right. Scorori. Scorori.

00:59:13.760 --> 00:59:15.159
Which is quite an appropriate name, actually.

00:59:15.320 --> 00:59:18.000
It is, yeah. He wasn't supposed to be on duty

00:59:18.000 --> 00:59:20.480
that day, but he answered the call for emergency

00:59:20.480 --> 00:59:23.019
assistance. And he was on a horse named Billy.

00:59:23.480 --> 00:59:28.239
Now, Billy was a grey horse, not a white horse.

00:59:28.320 --> 00:59:29.880
I was going to say this. The only fact I know

00:59:29.880 --> 00:59:31.840
about Billy is that he wasn't white, even though

00:59:31.840 --> 00:59:34.300
it's called the White Horse Final. Yeah, he was

00:59:34.300 --> 00:59:36.500
grey. The TV cameras couldn't pick him up properly.

00:59:37.369 --> 00:59:41.110
He came across as white on the TV screens, exactly,

00:59:41.329 --> 00:59:43.889
and all the photos that were taken of him. And

00:59:43.889 --> 00:59:48.369
so, basically, PC Scorry didn't think, he literally

00:59:48.369 --> 00:59:50.130
is on record as saying he didn't think it was

00:59:50.130 --> 00:59:51.769
possible. He thought it was impossible to clear

00:59:51.769 --> 00:59:54.550
the crowds. But he describes the horse as easing

00:59:54.550 --> 00:59:56.989
them back with his nose and tail until he got

00:59:56.989 --> 01:00:00.989
the goal line cleared. And essentially, he thinks

01:00:00.989 --> 01:00:03.030
that the horse was, he gives the horse all the

01:00:03.030 --> 01:00:05.130
credit. He says it had nothing really to do with

01:00:05.130 --> 01:00:07.619
him. The horse was just, commanding attention

01:00:07.619 --> 01:00:11.699
and the crowds were good natured and seemed to

01:00:11.699 --> 01:00:13.599
understand what was required of them and what

01:00:13.599 --> 01:00:15.820
the horse was asking them to do and he pushed

01:00:15.820 --> 01:00:18.800
them back and whilst the pitch was being cleared

01:00:18.800 --> 01:00:24.039
the event choir of St. Luke's sang Abide with

01:00:24.039 --> 01:00:27.840
me Abide with me I didn't know if you were going

01:00:27.840 --> 01:00:29.500
to mention that or not I had that charged up

01:00:29.500 --> 01:00:33.690
and ready to go So yeah, that's why it's called

01:00:33.690 --> 01:00:35.050
the White Horse Final. But I just think it's

01:00:35.050 --> 01:00:37.610
so cool. It prompted discussion in the House

01:00:37.610 --> 01:00:43.110
of Commons, and I think this is your fact, Jack,

01:00:43.170 --> 01:00:44.750
not mine, so I'm going to plagiarise off you,

01:00:44.809 --> 01:00:47.789
but I think it led to it being a ticketed -only

01:00:47.789 --> 01:00:50.230
event. Is that right? Yeah, I was going to say,

01:00:50.289 --> 01:00:53.250
in the least surprising news ever, all -ticket

01:00:53.250 --> 01:00:56.550
final from there. Yeah, I love this story, and

01:00:56.550 --> 01:01:02.170
I love how that's the first use of... history

01:01:02.170 --> 01:01:05.550
of abide with me being sung at the fa cup final

01:01:05.550 --> 01:01:07.809
apparently it was also sung by the west ham fans

01:01:07.809 --> 01:01:10.929
as they sadly walked home after losing but um

01:01:10.929 --> 01:01:14.469
uh abide with me became a permanent staple from

01:01:14.469 --> 01:01:17.889
1927 and i have a theory why it became a permanent

01:01:17.889 --> 01:01:21.769
staple from 19 or why it was sung so why to remember

01:01:21.769 --> 01:01:24.889
that it was sung in 1927 because the 1927 final

01:01:24.889 --> 01:01:27.969
had a a lot of people in the stadium from a certain

01:01:27.969 --> 01:01:30.110
part of the united kingdom which is who are very

01:01:30.110 --> 01:01:32.010
well known for their singing, very well known

01:01:32.010 --> 01:01:35.030
for their male choirs. Cardiff City got to the

01:01:35.030 --> 01:01:38.570
FA Cup final that year. And if anyone knows anything

01:01:38.570 --> 01:01:40.829
about Wales, they love a sing song and they're

01:01:40.829 --> 01:01:43.610
very good at it. And Cardiff City played, and

01:01:43.610 --> 01:01:45.090
again, close your ears, Ben, they played Arsenal

01:01:45.090 --> 01:01:47.090
that day and Cardiff City actually won the FA

01:01:47.090 --> 01:01:49.630
Cup, which is the last non -English team to win

01:01:49.630 --> 01:01:52.130
the FA Cup. There are still, basically anyone

01:01:52.130 --> 01:01:53.570
playing in the English football system enters

01:01:53.570 --> 01:01:55.969
the FA Cup, so Cardiff still do, Wrexham do,

01:01:56.090 --> 01:01:59.550
Swansea do, so on and so forth. Although it's

01:01:59.550 --> 01:02:02.170
been, Cardiff reached the final, I think 2008,

01:02:02.469 --> 01:02:04.690
they reached the final, lost to Portsmouth, I

01:02:04.690 --> 01:02:08.670
believe. Yes. But yeah, Cardiff were the last

01:02:08.670 --> 01:02:11.010
non -English team to win it. They took the FA

01:02:11.010 --> 01:02:13.349
Cup back home with them to Wales and left behind

01:02:13.349 --> 01:02:16.230
a legacy of Abide With Me being sung then on

01:02:16.230 --> 01:02:18.650
and then for, therefore, for the rest of the

01:02:18.650 --> 01:02:22.369
time. It's a wonderful song. That is, yeah. That's

01:02:22.369 --> 01:02:25.869
a cool, that's a cool origin story. It is. It

01:02:25.869 --> 01:02:29.000
is very cool. But yeah, sorry, I just really

01:02:29.000 --> 01:02:30.800
like the White Horse final just because I think

01:02:30.800 --> 01:02:35.239
it illustrates, left to our own devices, what

01:02:35.239 --> 01:02:37.460
the English public will do to make an FA Cup

01:02:37.460 --> 01:02:41.699
final. Yeah, absolutely. And any other sporting

01:02:41.699 --> 01:02:46.780
event. Anyway, 1927 was also famous because it

01:02:46.780 --> 01:02:48.980
was the first FA Cup final broadcast by the British

01:02:48.980 --> 01:02:51.320
Broadcasting Corporation, the BBC, obviously

01:02:51.320 --> 01:02:54.260
via the radio. And the Radio Times also gave

01:02:54.260 --> 01:02:56.860
a grid. which allowed you to follow the ball

01:02:56.860 --> 01:02:58.599
around the pitch. So the commentator would say,

01:02:58.699 --> 01:03:01.500
the ball is now in A1 or whatever, and you'd

01:03:01.500 --> 01:03:03.699
be able to follow it on the pitch. So completely

01:03:03.699 --> 01:03:07.039
pointless, but that was interesting. Innovative,

01:03:07.039 --> 01:03:09.940
at least. Yeah. So yeah, I'll fast forward ahead

01:03:09.940 --> 01:03:12.679
now. I'll spin through some of the key finals,

01:03:12.719 --> 01:03:14.800
the key things that happened, all the key things

01:03:14.800 --> 01:03:17.380
that happened during the tournaments. 1946 was

01:03:17.380 --> 01:03:20.679
the first post -World War II FA Cup. Most notable

01:03:20.679 --> 01:03:24.139
for some ties being played over two legs, which

01:03:24.139 --> 01:03:26.559
has never happened before. Derby County won the

01:03:26.559 --> 01:03:29.980
final, but it was most notable for a disaster

01:03:29.980 --> 01:03:31.679
which happened in Bolton in the sixth round,

01:03:31.760 --> 01:03:34.260
which is the Burnden Park disaster, in which

01:03:34.260 --> 01:03:36.860
quite a lot of fans lost their lives. Not, unfortunately,

01:03:36.980 --> 01:03:39.639
the last disaster to hit the FA Cup. We'll come

01:03:39.639 --> 01:03:42.920
to later. It's also a pretty eerie precursor,

01:03:42.920 --> 01:03:47.940
because it's similar in nature. Yeah. So, playing

01:03:47.940 --> 01:03:51.400
in that game was one Stanley Matthews. I think

01:03:51.400 --> 01:03:54.539
it was Bolton against Stoke, I want to say. at

01:03:54.539 --> 01:03:56.460
that point. Correct. I don't think Matthews had

01:03:56.460 --> 01:03:59.300
joined Blackpool yet, but anyway. Stanley Matthews,

01:03:59.300 --> 01:04:03.320
in 1953, was the most famous English footballer

01:04:03.320 --> 01:04:05.579
ever, at that point. He's still one of the most

01:04:05.579 --> 01:04:08.480
famous English footballers to this day. His incredible

01:04:08.480 --> 01:04:11.619
longevity is most notable. He was the first ever

01:04:11.619 --> 01:04:14.460
winner of the Ballon d 'Or trophy, and he won

01:04:14.460 --> 01:04:17.619
it in 1956. I think that's boss. He won it in

01:04:17.619 --> 01:04:20.880
1956 at the age of 41 years old. Whoa. Which

01:04:20.880 --> 01:04:24.199
was nine years before he retired. carried on

01:04:24.199 --> 01:04:27.639
playing until 1965 played for England until 1957

01:04:27.639 --> 01:04:33.199
but in 1953 he'd never won any trophy he played

01:04:33.199 --> 01:04:35.599
for Stoke his boyhood club he'd won division

01:04:35.599 --> 01:04:38.199
two with them I should say he never won a division

01:04:38.199 --> 01:04:39.860
one trophy or an FA Cup trophy or anything like

01:04:39.860 --> 01:04:43.199
that he won division two with them in 1933 he

01:04:43.199 --> 01:04:44.860
would later win division two with them again

01:04:44.860 --> 01:04:49.619
in 1963 which is fairly incredible but in 1953

01:04:51.219 --> 01:04:54.239
Blackpool, his team at the time. He was at Blackpool

01:04:54.239 --> 01:04:56.699
in between a couple of spells at Stoke. They

01:04:56.699 --> 01:04:59.280
were playing Bolton in the final and they found

01:04:59.280 --> 01:05:01.840
themselves 3 -1 down with not too long left on

01:05:01.840 --> 01:05:04.679
the clock. He was playing with a man named Stan

01:05:04.679 --> 01:05:06.699
Mortensen who was possibly the most unfortunate

01:05:06.699 --> 01:05:09.920
man in FA Cup final history because this final

01:05:09.920 --> 01:05:13.079
became known as the Matthews final after Blackpool

01:05:13.079 --> 01:05:15.079
came back from 3 -1 down, pulled the goal back

01:05:15.079 --> 01:05:17.460
through Mortensen, got an equaliser through Mortensen.

01:05:18.119 --> 01:05:19.980
which was his hat -trick goal, because he scored

01:05:19.980 --> 01:05:22.099
the first goal as well. That's a Stan Mortensen

01:05:22.099 --> 01:05:25.579
hat -trick. And then in the 92nd minute of the

01:05:25.579 --> 01:05:28.659
game, having equalised in the 89th, Stanley Matthews

01:05:28.659 --> 01:05:30.179
beat a couple of players, got to the byline,

01:05:30.300 --> 01:05:32.280
pulled the ball back across to where he thought

01:05:32.280 --> 01:05:34.900
Stan Mortensen would be. And apparently Matthews

01:05:34.900 --> 01:05:37.139
later said, for the first time all bloody season,

01:05:37.219 --> 01:05:39.539
he wasn't stood there. Obviously, Stanley Matthews

01:05:39.539 --> 01:05:40.820
would never have said bloody because he was a

01:05:40.820 --> 01:05:43.860
lovely man. But Stan Mortensen wasn't there,

01:05:43.940 --> 01:05:46.480
but a man named Bill Perry was. And Bill Perry...

01:05:46.780 --> 01:05:50.159
swept it in for a 4 -3 victory in what is generally

01:05:50.159 --> 01:05:52.360
regarded as the greatest FA Cup final of all

01:05:52.360 --> 01:05:54.260
time, and definitely the greatest FA Cup final

01:05:54.260 --> 01:05:56.440
comeback of all time. So it's called the Matthews

01:05:56.440 --> 01:05:58.639
final, basically because of the reverence the

01:05:58.639 --> 01:06:01.400
British public have for Stanley Matthews. It

01:06:01.400 --> 01:06:03.980
really should be called, if not the Mortensen

01:06:03.980 --> 01:06:06.739
final, then the two Stans final, something like

01:06:06.739 --> 01:06:09.400
that, because Stan Mortensen and Stanley Matthews

01:06:09.400 --> 01:06:12.539
were both instrumental to winning that. So yes,

01:06:12.679 --> 01:06:14.559
Stan Mortensen is obviously very well remembered.

01:06:14.940 --> 01:06:17.159
He's the only man ever to have scored a hat -trick

01:06:17.159 --> 01:06:19.619
in an FA Cup final, and everyone remembers Stanley

01:06:19.619 --> 01:06:22.199
Matthews. I think you can probably begrudge that,

01:06:22.280 --> 01:06:24.960
because Stanley Matthews was an absolute legend.

01:06:25.260 --> 01:06:27.780
Yeah, and he's still got his FA Cup medal, Stan

01:06:27.780 --> 01:06:33.340
Mortensen. Yes, a legend of the game himself.

01:06:33.719 --> 01:06:36.219
So the 1950s were notable for pretty much one

01:06:36.219 --> 01:06:40.219
other thing. We both like this story a lot. I

01:06:40.219 --> 01:06:42.400
know where you're going with this. So, well,

01:06:42.480 --> 01:06:45.300
in general terms, it's notable for one other

01:06:45.300 --> 01:06:49.820
thing, which was injuries. Injuries. There were

01:06:49.820 --> 01:06:51.679
no substitutes at this point. There was no substitutes

01:06:51.679 --> 01:06:56.199
until 1967. But let's go through this. 1952,

01:06:56.360 --> 01:07:00.460
Arsenal's Wally Barnes got split cartilage. 1953,

01:07:01.059 --> 01:07:03.340
Eric Bell was injured during that final I just

01:07:03.340 --> 01:07:05.960
mentioned. 1955, Jimmy Meadows broke his leg.

01:07:06.400 --> 01:07:10.320
1957, Ray Wood of Man United. got clattered and

01:07:10.320 --> 01:07:12.800
ended up finishing out limping on the wing. 1959,

01:07:13.219 --> 01:07:15.360
Roy Dwight broke his leg playing for Luton. Roy

01:07:15.360 --> 01:07:17.360
Dwight, funnily enough, is actually Elton John's

01:07:17.360 --> 01:07:20.579
cousin, what he's most famous for. 1960s, he

01:07:20.579 --> 01:07:23.139
carried on. Dave Whelan broke his leg playing

01:07:23.139 --> 01:07:24.659
for Blackburn. Do you recognise the name Dave

01:07:24.659 --> 01:07:27.460
Whelan? Yeah, I do, but I don't know why. He

01:07:27.460 --> 01:07:29.460
was the chairman of Wigan when they won the FA

01:07:29.460 --> 01:07:34.519
Cup in 2013. That's it. That was a brilliant

01:07:34.519 --> 01:07:37.480
fight. Now his nephew owns it or something. Is

01:07:37.480 --> 01:07:43.329
that right? Yeah, 1961, Len Chalmers as well.

01:07:43.469 --> 01:07:46.710
And then finally, in the mid -60s, they finally

01:07:46.710 --> 01:07:49.449
allowed substitutes in football. You might have

01:07:49.449 --> 01:07:51.650
noticed there was one year and one name I left

01:07:51.650 --> 01:07:54.050
off there, Ben, because a man that deserves a

01:07:54.050 --> 01:07:57.329
mention, 1956. Well, he's going to make all of

01:07:57.329 --> 01:08:00.170
these other guys look like they basically should

01:08:00.170 --> 01:08:05.769
have played on. For various reasons. So Bert

01:08:05.769 --> 01:08:09.139
Routman was born in Bremen in 1923. He joined

01:08:09.139 --> 01:08:11.599
the Luftwaffe earlier in the Second War. They

01:08:11.599 --> 01:08:14.320
later became a paratrooper. He was initially

01:08:14.320 --> 01:08:17.520
serving in Poland and fought on the Eastern Front.

01:08:17.840 --> 01:08:19.939
He earned five medals, including an Iron Cross,

01:08:20.119 --> 01:08:22.920
which is a very high award for valour in the

01:08:22.920 --> 01:08:25.260
German army. Later in the war, he ended up on

01:08:25.260 --> 01:08:27.159
the Western Front, where he was captured by the

01:08:27.159 --> 01:08:31.319
British as the war grew to a close. One of only

01:08:31.319 --> 01:08:34.140
90 of his original 1 ,000 -man regiment to survive

01:08:34.140 --> 01:08:36.319
the war. He was transferred to a prison of war

01:08:36.319 --> 01:08:39.300
camp in Ashton in Makefield, Lancashire. After

01:08:39.300 --> 01:08:41.159
the war, he refused an offer of repatriation,

01:08:41.239 --> 01:08:44.560
instead deciding to start his life in Lancashire,

01:08:44.600 --> 01:08:46.619
to continue his life living in Lancashire, where

01:08:46.619 --> 01:08:49.319
he got married and started playing in golf for

01:08:49.319 --> 01:08:51.180
a local football team who were St. Helens Town.

01:08:51.460 --> 01:08:54.979
He was so good that in 1949, a much bigger team,

01:08:55.039 --> 01:08:58.300
Manchester City, back when they were still loved

01:08:58.300 --> 01:09:02.640
and respected by all, as opposed to today. yeah

01:09:02.640 --> 01:09:07.420
basically probably should say pre -2006 seven

01:09:07.420 --> 01:09:10.880
-ish before they got bought out by a thai billionaire

01:09:10.880 --> 01:09:15.699
then were sold to their current owners um they

01:09:15.699 --> 01:09:19.880
were very much like loved as a working class

01:09:19.880 --> 01:09:24.159
team of the people and there's a long -going

01:09:24.159 --> 01:09:26.520
joke about everyone in Manchester supporting

01:09:26.520 --> 01:09:29.619
Manchester City and not Manchester United despite

01:09:29.619 --> 01:09:35.500
Manchester United's success. Obviously, I don't

01:09:35.500 --> 01:09:37.000
want to criticise Manchester City wholeheartedly.

01:09:37.119 --> 01:09:38.880
A lot of their fans have been there and they've

01:09:38.880 --> 01:09:41.340
been through some ups and downs. Some major downs.

01:09:41.760 --> 01:09:44.260
What was the second division? Seeing themselves

01:09:44.260 --> 01:09:46.100
win a playoff game to get themselves back up.

01:09:46.159 --> 01:09:47.640
The second division is what is now League One,

01:09:47.680 --> 01:09:51.079
the third tier of English football. You can,

01:09:51.079 --> 01:09:55.399
12 years later, winning the title. I bet the

01:09:55.399 --> 01:09:58.220
high tasted sweeter for the low that preceded

01:09:58.220 --> 01:10:01.579
it. Anyway, Bert Troutman played in his first

01:10:01.579 --> 01:10:04.779
FA Cup final in 1955 against Newcastle United

01:10:04.779 --> 01:10:07.199
and came out on the losing side, the wrong side

01:10:07.199 --> 01:10:10.180
of a 3 -1 deficit. But Manchester City got back

01:10:10.180 --> 01:10:13.720
there in 1956 and they were playing Birmingham

01:10:13.720 --> 01:10:18.760
City in that game. So the game started well for

01:10:18.760 --> 01:10:21.199
Manchester City. They took the lead in the third

01:10:21.199 --> 01:10:23.619
minute before Birmingham equalised in the 15th

01:10:23.619 --> 01:10:26.210
minute. Manchester City restored their lead so

01:10:26.210 --> 01:10:28.689
with 17 minutes remaining Bert Troutman dived

01:10:28.689 --> 01:10:30.989
at the feet of a Birmingham striker to win the

01:10:30.989 --> 01:10:34.390
ball but the striker's knee hit him in the back

01:10:34.390 --> 01:10:36.869
of the neck with a forceful blow Troutman was

01:10:36.869 --> 01:10:39.310
immediately knocked unconscious and the referee

01:10:39.310 --> 01:10:41.689
understandably stopped there immediately the

01:10:41.689 --> 01:10:45.149
trainer came out to the pitch but Yeah, even

01:10:45.149 --> 01:10:49.369
in the 1950s. I'm laughing because, like, stopping

01:10:49.369 --> 01:10:52.930
play is as far as this story goes for, like,

01:10:52.930 --> 01:10:55.409
medical attention and care for this guy. Oh,

01:10:55.409 --> 01:10:58.390
there was no substitutes. There was no substitutes

01:10:58.390 --> 01:11:00.270
and ordinarily... I get that, but, like, he got

01:11:00.270 --> 01:11:03.970
sparked and they were just like... Yeah, sorry.

01:11:04.010 --> 01:11:05.909
If it was an outfield player who got injured,

01:11:05.949 --> 01:11:08.149
they'd stick him on the wing. You can't do that

01:11:08.149 --> 01:11:11.069
with a goalkeeper. There were no substitutes

01:11:11.069 --> 01:11:13.470
permitted at this point. They'd either have to

01:11:13.470 --> 01:11:15.350
see out the game with 10 men and an outfield

01:11:15.350 --> 01:11:18.310
player in goal. In fact, their captain advised,

01:11:18.689 --> 01:11:20.689
their captain Roy Paul advised Troutman to go

01:11:20.689 --> 01:11:23.069
off and wanted to put a player called Roy Little

01:11:23.069 --> 01:11:26.369
in goal instead. But Troutman, being hard as

01:11:26.369 --> 01:11:28.750
nails, as he obviously was, insisted on carry

01:11:28.750 --> 01:11:30.529
on playing. So he played out the remaining minutes

01:11:30.529 --> 01:11:32.829
in great pain, with Manchester City defending

01:11:32.829 --> 01:11:36.270
a lead at this point as well. Basically, the

01:11:36.270 --> 01:11:37.869
City defenders should try to hoof it as far as

01:11:37.869 --> 01:11:40.560
they can. whenever it was possible, but even

01:11:40.560 --> 01:11:43.100
so, Troutman was still called upon to make a

01:11:43.100 --> 01:11:45.819
couple of further saves, the second of which

01:11:45.819 --> 01:11:48.220
caused him to recoil in agony due to another

01:11:48.220 --> 01:11:51.119
collision. Why was this so impressive, Jack?

01:11:51.220 --> 01:11:53.220
Because everyone's probably wondering, why are

01:11:53.220 --> 01:11:54.920
you banging on about this? Because this guy only

01:11:54.920 --> 01:11:56.640
got knocked out, and I've heard about people

01:11:56.640 --> 01:12:01.500
breaking their legs. So, it turned out after

01:12:01.500 --> 01:12:04.000
the game, Bert Troutman did in fact go to the

01:12:04.000 --> 01:12:06.300
doctors, which is good. And after the game, it

01:12:06.300 --> 01:12:09.090
turned out... that he had broken a bone in his

01:12:09.090 --> 01:12:12.729
neck. And that had it been a little bit worse,

01:12:12.970 --> 01:12:16.050
there's nothing the trainer could have done in

01:12:16.050 --> 01:12:19.529
that situation, shall we say. It was close. It

01:12:19.529 --> 01:12:23.569
was a close run thing to, well, you know, something

01:12:23.569 --> 01:12:25.590
bad or something very bad happening, shall we

01:12:25.590 --> 01:12:29.229
say. But nevertheless, he got through the game.

01:12:29.510 --> 01:12:32.289
Manchester City won the FA Cup. And when he went

01:12:32.289 --> 01:12:34.689
up to career electors, win his medal. The Duke

01:12:34.689 --> 01:12:36.909
of Edinburgh commented that his neck looked quite

01:12:36.909 --> 01:12:40.029
crooked. So there you go. If even Phil notices,

01:12:40.229 --> 01:12:43.909
you know it must be bad. Broken his neck and

01:12:43.909 --> 01:12:46.670
still played on. Ridiculous. Absolutely. I love

01:12:46.670 --> 01:12:51.949
that story. Wild. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, cool

01:12:51.949 --> 01:12:55.510
for a number of reasons. Because A, he won. B,

01:12:55.789 --> 01:12:59.090
it was a different time. And C, his backstory.

01:13:00.149 --> 01:13:03.310
And it's just astonishing, obviously. and also

01:13:03.310 --> 01:13:05.550
despite that run of injuries and despite this

01:13:05.550 --> 01:13:08.029
specific injury obviously making very big headlines

01:13:08.029 --> 01:13:11.130
it still took the FA over 10 years to allow substitutes

01:13:11.130 --> 01:13:15.810
in the FA Cup it shows how archaic it was it's

01:13:15.810 --> 01:13:18.270
not hard to so conservative yeah it's not hard

01:13:18.270 --> 01:13:20.029
to see why the women weren't allowed to play

01:13:20.029 --> 01:13:23.329
for like another 30 years or something just like

01:13:23.329 --> 01:13:25.770
traditions man traditions trump everything yeah

01:13:25.770 --> 01:13:28.149
to use some common sense I mean you can obviously

01:13:28.149 --> 01:13:30.609
people will argue and say you can now get For

01:13:30.609 --> 01:13:32.590
those who don't know, you now get to name, I

01:13:32.590 --> 01:13:34.210
think you get to name 12 substitutes and you

01:13:34.210 --> 01:13:37.050
can make five during the game. And, you know,

01:13:37.069 --> 01:13:39.689
even when it became allowed to have substitutes

01:13:39.689 --> 01:13:42.310
in the mid to late 60s, it was still only one

01:13:42.310 --> 01:13:44.750
substitute. You just had one spare player on

01:13:44.750 --> 01:13:47.789
the bench. It's very different now, but, you

01:13:47.789 --> 01:13:49.890
know, you can make arguments both ways with that.

01:13:50.109 --> 01:13:51.770
Obviously, the quality of the game is improved

01:13:51.770 --> 01:13:53.529
as a result because players can run harder and

01:13:53.529 --> 01:13:55.250
faster knowing that they're only going to be

01:13:55.250 --> 01:13:58.250
on the pitch for 65 minutes. So, yeah, make of

01:13:58.250 --> 01:14:02.899
that what you will. Yeah, it's pretty remarkable.

01:14:03.239 --> 01:14:05.579
I mean, with the FA Cup's fellow remarkable stories,

01:14:05.760 --> 01:14:11.239
that's why it's so damn cool. Yeah, I don't want

01:14:11.239 --> 01:14:15.199
to get into certain things too much because we're

01:14:15.199 --> 01:14:17.699
going to do so many FA Cup episodes in the future

01:14:17.699 --> 01:14:19.560
and we're going to be able to dive in depth.

01:14:19.920 --> 01:14:21.739
I should point out to everyone as well, obviously

01:14:21.739 --> 01:14:23.760
when we redo events, we're not going to go back

01:14:23.760 --> 01:14:25.060
through the history as well. We'll be straight

01:14:25.060 --> 01:14:27.479
on to the stories. Yeah, we'll just signpost

01:14:27.479 --> 01:14:29.829
people back to the history if they want to. Yeah,

01:14:31.270 --> 01:14:35.489
so I would say the heyday of the FA Cup is the

01:14:35.489 --> 01:14:39.609
1970s and the 1980s where some legendary finals,

01:14:39.789 --> 01:14:42.789
amazing things happened. First finals go to a

01:14:42.789 --> 01:14:45.729
replay. It was 1970 where Chelsea beat Leeds

01:14:45.729 --> 01:14:49.350
2 -1 after extra time after a 2 -2 draw at Wembley,

01:14:49.350 --> 01:14:51.770
which my dad was at, I think. I think my dad

01:14:51.770 --> 01:14:53.590
said he was at that one. But he wasn't at the

01:14:53.590 --> 01:14:55.010
replay, which is probably for the best because

01:14:55.010 --> 01:14:58.729
he's a Leeds fan. So is your brother. So is my

01:14:58.729 --> 01:15:01.229
brother, yeah. I'm the dark sheep. I was born

01:15:01.229 --> 01:15:05.250
in Liverpool, just to defend myself. 1970 was

01:15:05.250 --> 01:15:07.609
also the first year with a very short -lived,

01:15:07.729 --> 01:15:10.529
until 1974, third -place playoff in the FA Cup,

01:15:10.670 --> 01:15:17.430
which I did not know until today. 1972 was the

01:15:17.430 --> 01:15:19.529
Centennial FA Cup final, and just to throw my

01:15:19.529 --> 01:15:21.770
dad and brother a bone, Leeds won that one, beating

01:15:21.770 --> 01:15:24.829
Arsenal. 1 -0 with an Alan Clarke diving header,

01:15:24.949 --> 01:15:27.220
I think I mentioned before. Some of the best

01:15:27.220 --> 01:15:29.220
FA Cup final winning goals of all time have been

01:15:29.220 --> 01:15:31.159
headers. If you think about Wimbledon in 1988,

01:15:31.699 --> 01:15:34.880
Laurie Sanchez's header, obviously Wigan in 2013.

01:15:34.880 --> 01:15:38.539
Is that 88 or 89? 88, that was. 89, Liverpool

01:15:38.539 --> 01:15:45.859
won it after Hillsborough. Yeah, in 2013, it

01:15:45.859 --> 01:15:48.479
was, what's the ginger lad called? He scored

01:15:48.479 --> 01:15:51.899
the winner for Wigan. Ben Watson. Ben Watson,

01:15:52.039 --> 01:15:54.220
yeah. That's the one. Leaping like a salmon.

01:15:54.399 --> 01:15:58.060
I remember. Yeah. wanting Wigan to win that final

01:15:58.060 --> 01:16:03.000
so much. I was so ill that day. I had a really

01:16:03.000 --> 01:16:05.239
bad stomach bug and I basically couldn't stand

01:16:05.239 --> 01:16:07.619
up without having to run to the toilet to throw

01:16:07.619 --> 01:16:09.840
up, which I'm sure everyone appreciated that

01:16:09.840 --> 01:16:12.260
imagery. Until you saw Ben Watson's header, is

01:16:12.260 --> 01:16:13.760
that what you were going to say? I literally,

01:16:13.899 --> 01:16:16.119
I got to the point where I was like, how has

01:16:16.119 --> 01:16:17.640
this game got to the 80th minute? But I have

01:16:17.640 --> 01:16:19.979
now just come out of it. I feel great now. And

01:16:19.979 --> 01:16:21.600
then Ben Watson scored that. It was fantastic.

01:16:21.819 --> 01:16:23.819
I was like punching the scene, like cheering

01:16:23.819 --> 01:16:26.039
and celebrating. And then five minutes after

01:16:26.039 --> 01:16:28.979
full -time, I was back in the toilet again. Yeah,

01:16:28.979 --> 01:16:32.460
just since we've mentioned that Wigan one, they

01:16:32.460 --> 01:16:34.859
won that cup the same year that they were relegated.

01:16:35.119 --> 01:16:36.899
And then the following year, they actually made

01:16:36.899 --> 01:16:40.119
the semifinals again and en route to the semifinals

01:16:40.119 --> 01:16:42.779
where yours truly knocked them out on pens before

01:16:42.779 --> 01:16:44.279
being hull in the final, for what it's worth.

01:16:44.380 --> 01:16:46.760
They played City again en route in the quarters

01:16:46.760 --> 01:16:49.220
and pulled their pants at the Etihad. So they

01:16:49.220 --> 01:16:51.319
beat them two years in a row. You'll have to

01:16:51.319 --> 01:16:53.470
see it. Yeah. That's what this trope is all about.

01:16:53.470 --> 01:16:56.670
City fans must hate us. Yeah, we're just trooping

01:16:56.670 --> 01:17:02.829
City. Yeah, yeah. Although, who knows? But anyway,

01:17:03.069 --> 01:17:06.810
the 1970s. The year later, just to bite back

01:17:06.810 --> 01:17:09.930
at my dad and brother, was one of the greatest

01:17:09.930 --> 01:17:13.350
FA Cup final shocks of all time, where Lowly

01:17:13.350 --> 01:17:16.149
Sunderland of Division 2 played all -conquering

01:17:16.149 --> 01:17:17.609
leads at this time, one of the best teams in

01:17:17.609 --> 01:17:20.189
the world, and beat them 1 -0 in one of the...

01:17:20.560 --> 01:17:22.539
Greatest final shocks. Ian Porterfield scoring

01:17:22.539 --> 01:17:25.380
the winner and Jimmy Montgomery, the real hero

01:17:25.380 --> 01:17:28.340
in Sunderland's goal, keeping out the legendary

01:17:28.340 --> 01:17:30.159
Peter Lorimer with one of the greatest double

01:17:30.159 --> 01:17:31.939
saves of all time, which if you haven't seen

01:17:31.939 --> 01:17:36.500
it, watch it. It's incredible. Yeah. More shocks.

01:17:36.859 --> 01:17:39.260
Again, I just want to add a little bit of context

01:17:39.260 --> 01:17:42.979
for you. Leeds were as dominant in the 70s as

01:17:42.979 --> 01:17:45.500
Liverpool were in the 80s or Man United were

01:17:45.500 --> 01:17:49.579
in the 90s. Well, maybe not as dominant. But

01:17:49.579 --> 01:17:52.699
they won a lot of league titles. I think all

01:17:52.699 --> 01:17:54.340
Leeds fans would accept that Leeds should have

01:17:54.340 --> 01:17:57.399
won more than they did. Leeds were better than

01:17:57.399 --> 01:17:58.819
the titles they ended up winning. And they still

01:17:58.819 --> 01:18:03.579
won. What I mean is they were the team of that

01:18:03.579 --> 01:18:07.220
decade. Maybe two UEFA Cups. Yeah, they were

01:18:07.220 --> 01:18:08.500
the team of the decade. They were the team of

01:18:08.500 --> 01:18:11.359
the decade. The way Liverpool were the 80s, United

01:18:11.359 --> 01:18:13.899
were the 90s, and City are now. Maybe not as

01:18:13.899 --> 01:18:16.239
successful, but they were the best team. And

01:18:16.239 --> 01:18:18.880
also a deeply unpleasant team to play as well.

01:18:19.199 --> 01:18:22.119
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And if anybody's not... You

01:18:22.119 --> 01:18:24.279
know you played them. Yeah, if anybody wants

01:18:24.279 --> 01:18:26.939
a sort of comedic spin on it, just watch the

01:18:26.939 --> 01:18:29.899
damned United and Brian Classview of Leeds United

01:18:29.899 --> 01:18:32.279
and his experience where he temporarily took

01:18:32.279 --> 01:18:38.960
over there. yes that went down well so yeah it

01:18:38.960 --> 01:18:41.239
was the first there was actually three division

01:18:41.239 --> 01:18:45.640
two teams who won the FA Cup in the 70s and won

01:18:45.640 --> 01:18:51.020
in 1980 two in the 70s won in 1980 because 1976

01:18:51.020 --> 01:18:53.579
Southampton beat Manchester United 1 -0 and then

01:18:53.579 --> 01:18:56.859
1980 West Ham beat Arsenal one, Bill. They did.

01:18:57.100 --> 01:18:59.699
You're hell -bent on just talking about the seven

01:18:59.699 --> 01:19:02.619
cup finals we lost, not the 14 that we won. Arsenal,

01:19:02.659 --> 01:19:04.779
of course, being the holders of the competition

01:19:04.779 --> 01:19:07.800
at the time, having won another one of the greatest

01:19:07.800 --> 01:19:10.899
FA Cup finals of all time, having been 2 -0 up

01:19:10.899 --> 01:19:14.199
late in the game. Arsenal were 2 -0 up late in

01:19:14.199 --> 01:19:16.640
the game, as you can see, two late goals. And

01:19:16.640 --> 01:19:18.920
just as Manchester United thought they had the

01:19:18.920 --> 01:19:20.260
game in the bag and were going to score a third

01:19:20.260 --> 01:19:21.920
and win it, Arsenal went to drop at the other

01:19:21.920 --> 01:19:23.739
end and Alan Sunderland, of course, scored the

01:19:23.739 --> 01:19:27.550
winner. Back post. Big perm as well on Alan Sunderland.

01:19:27.930 --> 01:19:31.109
The 1981 was a great final too. Spurs winning

01:19:31.109 --> 01:19:33.369
it with Ricky Vila's wonder goal, which I'm sure

01:19:33.369 --> 01:19:35.649
you won't want me to talk about that much. Great

01:19:35.649 --> 01:19:38.750
finals in the 70s and 80s. Liverpool beating

01:19:38.750 --> 01:19:41.810
Everton a couple of times. The second of which,

01:19:41.869 --> 01:19:45.850
1989, won 3 -2 against Everton in that final.

01:19:46.449 --> 01:19:49.970
That came a few weeks after the singular darkest

01:19:49.970 --> 01:19:52.210
day in Liverpool Football Club's history and

01:19:52.210 --> 01:19:55.020
in Definitely the FA Cup's history as well. And

01:19:55.020 --> 01:19:57.359
in English football's history. And in maybe,

01:19:57.520 --> 01:19:59.319
well, I wouldn't want to say all the football's

01:19:59.319 --> 01:20:00.720
history. There's been quite a lot of dark days

01:20:00.720 --> 01:20:02.800
around the world. But the Hillsborough disaster,

01:20:03.100 --> 01:20:04.760
which I'm not going to talk about too much today

01:20:04.760 --> 01:20:08.760
because I want to do it in depth sometime. The

01:20:08.760 --> 01:20:11.840
introductory episode to the FA Cup is not the

01:20:11.840 --> 01:20:14.439
time to do it. But obviously as a Liverpool fan...

01:20:14.439 --> 01:20:16.420
It would be remiss not to mention it though.

01:20:16.840 --> 01:20:23.060
It is... Yeah. 97 Liverpool fans lost their life

01:20:23.060 --> 01:20:27.800
95 on the day a 96 a little while later and then

01:20:27.800 --> 01:20:32.539
a 97 died of injuries caused by the accident

01:20:32.539 --> 01:20:37.699
not too long ago now so yeah massive tragedy

01:20:37.699 --> 01:20:43.159
the cover up and the attitude of the newspapers

01:20:43.159 --> 01:20:47.680
the press the government at the time I'll save

01:20:47.680 --> 01:20:50.260
it for another day but yeah Strong views on that

01:20:50.260 --> 01:20:53.960
one. A lot went wrong accidentally and then a

01:20:53.960 --> 01:20:56.319
lot went wrong deliberately afterwards. Yes.

01:20:56.760 --> 01:20:58.680
So a lot went wrong because of incompetence and

01:20:58.680 --> 01:21:01.199
then a lot went wrong because of malice after

01:21:01.199 --> 01:21:04.079
the fact. A lot of things were said that shouldn't

01:21:04.079 --> 01:21:05.140
have been said and a lot of things were done

01:21:05.140 --> 01:21:06.779
that shouldn't have been done. A lot of time

01:21:06.779 --> 01:21:09.000
and a lot of money was wasted. A lot of opportunity

01:21:09.000 --> 01:21:11.699
to, well, to be honest, even to get to the point

01:21:11.699 --> 01:21:14.619
where it happened, there was just bad political

01:21:14.619 --> 01:21:16.619
decisions made. But as I said, I'll come to that

01:21:16.619 --> 01:21:19.140
in the future. Yeah, that's definitely something

01:21:19.140 --> 01:21:22.239
that we can drill into. Demonisation of an entire

01:21:22.239 --> 01:21:27.239
group of people, essentially, was a factor in

01:21:27.239 --> 01:21:33.439
it. Football fans, generally. Yeah. Anyway, so,

01:21:33.520 --> 01:21:35.760
yeah, from there, obviously, again, more recent,

01:21:35.899 --> 01:21:38.600
the last final replay, as you said, Arsenal beat

01:21:38.600 --> 01:21:40.640
Sheffield Wednesday, the first club to win the

01:21:40.640 --> 01:21:42.800
FA Cup and the League Cup in the same season.

01:21:43.180 --> 01:21:46.619
So, the year 2000 saw the singular worst thing.

01:21:47.020 --> 01:21:50.479
that I can say a club has done in FA Cup history

01:21:50.479 --> 01:21:52.720
when Manchester United withdrew from the competition

01:21:52.720 --> 01:21:55.579
to instead play in the FIFA Club World Championship

01:21:55.579 --> 01:22:00.239
in Brazil. Fortunately, they got it handed to

01:22:00.239 --> 01:22:01.840
them when they were there. They didn't even get

01:22:01.840 --> 01:22:05.920
out of the group. But as a result of that, one

01:22:05.920 --> 01:22:09.659
of the teams that lost in round two was redrawn

01:22:09.659 --> 01:22:12.079
back into the competition as a lucky loser. And

01:22:12.079 --> 01:22:16.020
the lucky loser on that day was Darlington. That's

01:22:16.020 --> 01:22:18.079
a fun fact. They once tried to sign Tino Esprit.

01:22:18.739 --> 01:22:22.800
Yes, they did. And, yeah, a series of unfortunate

01:22:22.800 --> 01:22:26.100
events that eventually led to them going bust,

01:22:26.100 --> 01:22:29.619
I believe. Yeah, they went bust, yeah. But, yeah,

01:22:29.760 --> 01:22:34.140
United, like... You just don't do that. You don't

01:22:34.140 --> 01:22:36.500
do that, yeah, exactly. You don't do that. And

01:22:36.500 --> 01:22:38.199
if you do do that, make sure you go and win the

01:22:38.199 --> 01:22:40.880
bloody competition you've, you know, dropped

01:22:40.880 --> 01:22:43.439
out of. At least have the decency to go bring

01:22:43.439 --> 01:22:48.560
home the tin... pot, two -bit rubbish trophy

01:22:48.560 --> 01:22:52.239
that you decided to... That you decided wasn't

01:22:52.239 --> 01:22:54.460
important enough for your efforts. Even to send

01:22:54.460 --> 01:22:58.420
your youth team to. Yeah, yeah. I think, like,

01:22:58.479 --> 01:23:01.100
nah. I'm not having that. I'm not having that

01:23:01.100 --> 01:23:04.300
at all. Neither should you. No excuse whatsoever.

01:23:04.800 --> 01:23:08.359
No one's done it before or since, which probably

01:23:08.359 --> 01:23:12.000
tells you the backlash that it generated. Yeah.

01:23:12.439 --> 01:23:16.380
It should have been banned. As much as I hate

01:23:16.380 --> 01:23:19.960
Manchester City now, God, my hatred of Manchester

01:23:19.960 --> 01:23:24.180
United at that time. Runs deeper. My dad never

01:23:24.180 --> 01:23:26.479
quite got me to be a Leeds fan, although I do

01:23:26.479 --> 01:23:28.819
love Leeds United. He never quite got me to a

01:23:28.819 --> 01:23:30.579
Leeds fan, but my God, did he get me to hate

01:23:30.579 --> 01:23:33.020
Manchester United. That man did a sterling job

01:23:33.020 --> 01:23:37.960
at that. Yeah, you can see our biases coming

01:23:37.960 --> 01:23:40.260
to the fore here. It's very difficult to remain

01:23:40.260 --> 01:23:42.800
objective when it comes to football. But yeah.

01:23:43.229 --> 01:23:46.909
regardless of your affiliations, I think withdrawing

01:23:46.909 --> 01:23:50.250
from the FA Cup is sacrilege, basically, when

01:23:50.250 --> 01:23:53.630
it comes to English footballing. Tradition, culture,

01:23:53.930 --> 01:23:58.329
heritage, morality. I don't know what else to

01:23:58.329 --> 01:24:02.489
say about it, really. You just don't do it. It's

01:24:02.489 --> 01:24:08.350
despicable. Despicable behavior. Anyway. And

01:24:08.350 --> 01:24:12.649
I would say the same about my own club. But thankfully,

01:24:12.810 --> 01:24:15.050
my club are decent and have never done something

01:24:15.050 --> 01:24:20.470
so abhorrent. No, they haven't. Neither has mine.

01:24:20.829 --> 01:24:25.390
And speaking of mine, 2001 till 2006, Wembley

01:24:25.390 --> 01:24:27.750
was redeveloped and the FA Cup final was played

01:24:27.750 --> 01:24:29.829
outside of England at the Millennium Stadium

01:24:29.829 --> 01:24:31.850
in Cardiff, which is a lovely stadium, to be

01:24:31.850 --> 01:24:35.489
fair. The last of those finals was 2006, which

01:24:35.489 --> 01:24:38.729
is known as the Gerrard final. after Steven Jarosz

01:24:38.729 --> 01:24:41.329
scored twice, including a 35 -yard screamer to

01:24:41.329 --> 01:24:44.170
equalise in the last minute and send me into

01:24:44.170 --> 01:24:47.250
quite large raptures. What a goal. And then Liverpool

01:24:47.250 --> 01:24:49.909
ended up winning on penalties there. So 2007

01:24:49.909 --> 01:24:52.010
was the first final at the new Wembley, which

01:24:52.010 --> 01:24:55.510
Chelsea won. And from 2008, in order to pay for

01:24:55.510 --> 01:24:57.430
the new Wembley, all semi -finals have been played

01:24:57.430 --> 01:25:01.329
at Wembley, which I hate, and you probably hate

01:25:01.329 --> 01:25:07.460
too. Yes. Cool. So previous to that, Semifinals

01:25:07.460 --> 01:25:09.239
were always played at a neutral venue, but it

01:25:09.239 --> 01:25:11.699
was always somewhere in between the two grounds.

01:25:11.840 --> 01:25:14.520
So if it was, I don't know, Aston Villa versus

01:25:14.520 --> 01:25:16.960
Newcastle, they played at Old Trafford. If it

01:25:16.960 --> 01:25:20.640
was Arsenal versus Manchester United, they played

01:25:20.640 --> 01:25:23.000
at Villa Park, something like that. It would

01:25:23.000 --> 01:25:27.899
be Stamford Bridge, Villa Park, or Old Trafford,

01:25:27.939 --> 01:25:30.760
generally speaking. Hillsborough. Hillsborough

01:25:30.760 --> 01:25:33.239
as well, of course. I think the city ground in

01:25:33.239 --> 01:25:38.420
Nottingham a few times. I hate that. It's a money

01:25:38.420 --> 01:25:43.380
thing, isn't it? Yes. Like all these things in

01:25:43.380 --> 01:25:49.720
modern day sport, the money talks. It's a shame

01:25:49.720 --> 01:25:51.420
because the showpiece event is supposed to be

01:25:51.420 --> 01:25:53.840
at Wembley. But now you get to go because there's

01:25:53.840 --> 01:25:56.939
more tickets to sell, more corporate hospitality

01:25:56.939 --> 01:26:02.979
to sell. But yeah, it's a shame. It is. And anyway,

01:26:03.060 --> 01:26:05.039
that's pretty much up to the modern day, obviously.

01:26:05.600 --> 01:26:08.300
As we said, Manchester City versus Crystal Palace

01:26:08.300 --> 01:26:11.779
this weekend. And the neutrals like us will probably

01:26:11.779 --> 01:26:14.260
be supporting Palace. We will definitely be supporting

01:26:14.260 --> 01:26:18.380
Palace. Just before, because I suspect we're

01:26:18.380 --> 01:26:21.520
wrapping up shortly. I think so, yeah. But before

01:26:21.520 --> 01:26:26.060
we go, do you have a favourite FA Cup final,

01:26:26.100 --> 01:26:29.500
Jack? Do I have a favourite? A personal favourite.

01:26:29.579 --> 01:26:31.720
I do, but it's going to make me sound like a

01:26:31.720 --> 01:26:35.300
nerd. We used to have an old videotape. Of the

01:26:35.300 --> 01:26:38.880
1953 FA Cup final. And I used to watch it. Which

01:26:38.880 --> 01:26:42.640
was the Matthews final. I used to watch it. And

01:26:42.640 --> 01:26:45.739
it's wonderful. I can't go past this. Stanley

01:26:45.739 --> 01:26:48.420
Matthews is my favourite footballer of all time.

01:26:49.000 --> 01:26:51.739
He's just. If you're going to learn about one

01:26:51.739 --> 01:26:54.239
footballer. And be completely. Have your opinions

01:26:54.239 --> 01:26:56.020
of footballers turned on his head. As to how

01:26:56.020 --> 01:26:59.579
a man can be so humble. So beloved. And so lovely.

01:27:00.180 --> 01:27:02.840
And play for so long. And be so fit at a time

01:27:02.840 --> 01:27:05.859
when. This was. Men who had steak and eggs for

01:27:05.859 --> 01:27:07.960
breakfast and a half -time cigarette. That wasn't

01:27:07.960 --> 01:27:12.619
him. He was fit as a fiddle. But yeah, 1953 would

01:27:12.619 --> 01:27:14.579
probably be my show. I wasn't expecting that.

01:27:14.640 --> 01:27:16.140
I wasn't expecting that. I thought you were going

01:27:16.140 --> 01:27:19.539
to pick a Liverpool one, which shows you, or

01:27:19.539 --> 01:27:21.699
shows anyone who's listened and stuck with us

01:27:21.699 --> 01:27:23.439
to the end of this episode, just quite how much

01:27:23.439 --> 01:27:26.479
you actually love this game and this sport above

01:27:26.479 --> 01:27:30.680
your allegiances. The best Liverpool one is the

01:27:30.680 --> 01:27:32.800
Gerrard final, which is obviously, I love that

01:27:32.800 --> 01:27:35.000
goal and it was a great moment for me. Liverpool

01:27:35.000 --> 01:27:36.760
should have won that game. Liverpool were the

01:27:36.760 --> 01:27:40.159
better team in that game. West Ham, I mean, if

01:27:40.159 --> 01:27:42.659
I was in neutral, I'd be gutted about that because

01:27:42.659 --> 01:27:45.720
West Ham were the plucky underdogs at the time

01:27:45.720 --> 01:27:48.560
and Paul Koncheski, you know, scoring for his

01:27:48.560 --> 01:27:51.359
hometown club to give them the lead and everything

01:27:51.359 --> 01:27:55.100
like that. But yeah, it's not as romantic. It

01:27:55.100 --> 01:28:00.489
was 1953 years. It's it. It's everything. I've

01:28:00.489 --> 01:28:02.850
got, I reckon I could, all three of mine are

01:28:02.850 --> 01:28:06.649
Arsenal wins, naturally. I think I could probably,

01:28:06.810 --> 01:28:09.289
I could give you three though, like for different

01:28:09.289 --> 01:28:10.609
reasons. I think I know what one of them is going

01:28:10.609 --> 01:28:14.350
to be. Go ahead. It's only Ray Parler. Of course

01:28:14.350 --> 01:28:18.350
it is. It's only Ray Parler signing. 2002. Epic

01:28:18.350 --> 01:28:20.170
up front. I'll beat Chelsea 2 -0. Freddie Lundberg

01:28:20.170 --> 01:28:22.590
scored a... wonderful goal wonderful solo goal

01:28:22.590 --> 01:28:27.710
and then Rave Harler who is a bit of a cult hero

01:28:27.710 --> 01:28:31.750
at Arsenal and a stalwart in midfield guy from

01:28:31.750 --> 01:28:34.710
Romford basically they used to have a thing called

01:28:34.710 --> 01:28:40.369
like fan fan zone yeah and for the final they

01:28:40.369 --> 01:28:43.149
had yeah for the final they had celebrities special

01:28:43.149 --> 01:28:46.439
guests or whatever and Tim Lovejoy was as a Chelsea

01:28:46.439 --> 01:28:48.500
fan was commentating and as Ray Parler picked

01:28:48.500 --> 01:28:50.399
up the ball, he said, oh, it's only Ray Parler

01:28:50.399 --> 01:28:53.060
before Ray Parler curled in a 30 -yard beauty

01:28:53.060 --> 01:28:56.539
into the top corner. You might be over -exaggerating

01:28:56.539 --> 01:28:58.739
on the yardage, but that was a beauty. I think

01:28:58.739 --> 01:29:03.760
it was 50, maybe 60 yards. A real kick, yeah.

01:29:04.020 --> 01:29:06.979
Yeah, a bicycle kick from the halfway line. No,

01:29:07.060 --> 01:29:11.039
it was, yeah, that was unreal. But I think that

01:29:11.039 --> 01:29:13.880
my favourite one is probably the victory over...

01:29:15.110 --> 01:29:18.609
Hull in 2014 just because we hadn't won for quite

01:29:18.609 --> 01:29:21.029
a while. Nearly 10 years we hadn't had a trophy.

01:29:21.350 --> 01:29:24.489
We came from 2 -0 down. Aaron Ramsey with the

01:29:24.489 --> 01:29:26.989
winner. And then the most comfortable FA Cup

01:29:26.989 --> 01:29:28.949
final I've ever enjoyed was when Arsenal beat

01:29:28.949 --> 01:29:33.689
Villa 4 -0 because that was nice and easy. It

01:29:33.689 --> 01:29:35.729
was before Villa were good though. It was before

01:29:35.729 --> 01:29:39.529
Villa were good but I've never watched a game

01:29:39.529 --> 01:29:45.150
of such magnitude in such a relaxed state. um

01:29:45.150 --> 01:29:46.989
although you probably don't recall it like that

01:29:46.989 --> 01:29:48.770
because i'm sure even in like the 90th minute

01:29:48.770 --> 01:29:51.789
i was like if we can see it now even though it

01:29:51.789 --> 01:29:54.310
sounds like you but yeah anyway there we are

01:29:54.310 --> 01:29:58.229
um the romance of the cup it'll never die uh

01:29:58.229 --> 01:30:00.050
and those people that say that it's lost its

01:30:00.050 --> 01:30:01.550
magic don't know what the hell they're talking

01:30:01.550 --> 01:30:03.909
about yeah and i'm just i think we should end

01:30:03.909 --> 01:30:06.170
just by talking about the greatest thing about

01:30:06.170 --> 01:30:07.750
the fa cup just because i don't think we've given

01:30:07.750 --> 01:30:11.710
it enough emphasis is giant killings so so anyone

01:30:11.710 --> 01:30:13.430
who's not heard that phrase before this is when

01:30:13.430 --> 01:30:16.439
a lower league team knocks out a higher team.

01:30:17.119 --> 01:30:19.079
Even better when it's a non -league team knocking

01:30:19.079 --> 01:30:20.739
out a Premier League team like we mentioned.

01:30:21.020 --> 01:30:23.920
Lincoln City did and Luton Town did within the

01:30:23.920 --> 01:30:27.420
last 12 years or so. But just to give a shout

01:30:27.420 --> 01:30:31.079
out to the great ones in the past. Hereford United

01:30:31.079 --> 01:30:34.340
knocking out Newcastle in the 70s. Ronnie Radford?

01:30:34.739 --> 01:30:38.659
That was a 30 -yarder. Flew in to win that game.

01:30:39.439 --> 01:30:43.069
Sutton United knocked out Coventry City as a

01:30:43.069 --> 01:30:46.390
non -league team in 1989 on a horrible pitch

01:30:46.390 --> 01:30:49.550
with a header and then I think Coventry hit the

01:30:49.550 --> 01:30:54.750
bar and withdrew Sutton's goal lived a charmed

01:30:54.750 --> 01:30:57.270
life and pitch invasion at the end you love to

01:30:57.270 --> 01:31:03.510
see it so yeah and then Chesterfield 1997 reaching

01:31:03.510 --> 01:31:06.050
the semi -finals going all the way playing Middlesbrough

01:31:06.050 --> 01:31:07.930
in the semi -finals getting the last minute equaliser

01:31:07.930 --> 01:31:10.869
to force a replay in the semi -final but unfortunately

01:31:11.920 --> 01:31:18.979
lost in that replay. Good times. Cool. So where

01:31:18.979 --> 01:31:23.119
can people watch it? If you're in England, the

01:31:23.119 --> 01:31:26.260
BBC. Always the BBC. And ITV. It's on both three

01:31:26.260 --> 01:31:29.340
to air now. Who cares? It's always the BBC. It's

01:31:29.340 --> 01:31:32.680
always the BBC. If you're in America, I think

01:31:32.680 --> 01:31:38.220
you will find it on ESPN. I think in some jurisdictions

01:31:38.220 --> 01:31:40.979
it's on Satanta, which I didn't even know still

01:31:40.979 --> 01:31:44.859
existed. Oh, really? Yeah. Neither did I. That's

01:31:44.859 --> 01:31:47.140
right. New Zealand, you will find it on Sky.

01:31:49.760 --> 01:31:56.680
Australia apparently is Optus. Cool. Just trying

01:31:56.680 --> 01:31:59.159
to see if I can find Ireland for anybody that's

01:31:59.159 --> 01:32:02.319
interested in Ireland. Do they know about BBC

01:32:02.319 --> 01:32:06.890
Signal? I'm not sure. I can't find Ireland, which

01:32:06.890 --> 01:32:10.670
is annoying. But I'm sure the people in Ireland

01:32:10.670 --> 01:32:13.649
who like football, who may or may not listen

01:32:13.649 --> 01:32:15.869
to this, will be able to find the FA Cup final

01:32:15.869 --> 01:32:17.869
if they want to watch it. I'm pretty sure, yes.

01:32:18.569 --> 01:32:21.390
Anyway. But yeah, so there we are. And so that

01:32:21.390 --> 01:32:24.710
only leaves us to preview where we're going next

01:32:24.710 --> 01:32:28.710
week. Yes, which I'm superbly excited about because

01:32:28.710 --> 01:32:30.630
I recorded the intro to this about six weeks

01:32:30.630 --> 01:32:35.470
ago. I'm so excited about it. So next week. it's

01:32:35.470 --> 01:32:38.810
the well primarily the crown in the jewel of

01:32:38.810 --> 01:32:40.710
the formula one calendar to finally give us a

01:32:40.710 --> 01:32:42.949
chance to talk about formula one it's the monaco

01:32:42.949 --> 01:32:47.890
grand prix uh but also because uh i love overstretching

01:32:47.890 --> 01:32:49.470
us and doing more sports than we can possibly

01:32:49.470 --> 01:32:52.869
handle in one episode we will also be uh passing

01:32:52.869 --> 01:32:56.270
you know passing a bit of comment on the other

01:32:56.270 --> 01:32:58.750
events in the triple crown of motorsport which

01:32:58.750 --> 01:33:01.909
are the indy 500 and the 24 hours of le mans

01:33:02.770 --> 01:33:04.750
talking about the drivers who've attempted all

01:33:04.750 --> 01:33:07.489
three, the one who succeeded, and the ones who

01:33:07.489 --> 01:33:10.590
have got oh so close, as well as focusing mainly

01:33:10.590 --> 01:33:13.590
on Monaco, which, say what you want about the

01:33:13.590 --> 01:33:15.909
race, it's still a hell of an event. Yeah, and

01:33:15.909 --> 01:33:20.710
to end on a deliberate and sickly pun, you'll

01:33:20.710 --> 01:33:26.329
be driving that episode, I think. Wee. I can't

01:33:26.329 --> 01:33:28.670
wait. I'm very excited. So yeah, if you're interested

01:33:28.670 --> 01:33:33.890
in that, join us then. but until next week goodbye

01:33:33.890 --> 01:33:38.029
Jack goodbye Ben see you later see you later

01:33:42.569 --> 01:33:45.090
Yet again, thank you for listening to the Sporting

01:33:45.090 --> 01:33:47.390
Almanac podcast. Your support really means the

01:33:47.390 --> 01:33:49.789
world to us. If you enjoyed it, give us a like,

01:33:49.789 --> 01:33:51.470
a subscriber, a rating, wherever you get your

01:33:51.470 --> 01:33:53.670
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01:33:53.770 --> 01:33:56.050
please tell your friends. There's no better advertising

01:33:56.050 --> 01:33:58.149
than word of mouth. It costs nothing and it really

01:33:58.149 --> 01:34:00.270
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01:34:00.270 --> 01:34:02.550
Yeah by Hermione Productions. You can find us

01:34:02.550 --> 01:34:04.909
on Bluesky at the Sporting Almanac or drop us

01:34:04.909 --> 01:34:07.289
an email at sportingalmanacpodcast .gmail .com.

01:34:07.430 --> 01:34:09.170
We'll see you next week on the streets of Monte

01:34:09.170 --> 01:34:12.409
Carlo. But until then, stay curious. Sport is

01:34:12.409 --> 01:34:14.930
nothing without the stories that make it. Goodbye.