Waking up every day, if I say what I want to
say, then there's these negative comments and
you're losing followers. It's just this constant
signal that you're receiving that you're being
disapproved by the world, disapproved by these
people, those people. And so, you know, being
in a constant state of disapproval starts to
really wear on your psyche and you wake up and
you're like, oh, everybody hates me today. Today
we have a really great guest. This should be
a lot of fun. We have Luke Powell, former West
Point grad, country music star, and then eventual
reality star on The Bachelorette, whose life
got very disrupted along the way and things were
going in a great trajectory and then all of a
sudden they were not. Thank you, Luke. Thanks
for joining us. Can't wait to hear your story.
Yeah, thanks for having me on, David. Glad to
be here. So for those of us who live under a
rock, tell us what The Bachelorette, I've seen
it, but for others who have not, what's the format
of the show? How does it work? And how did you
get involved in that? Yeah, so for those that
don't know, which they probably do, The Bachelorette
is, or The Bachelor franchise, the format is
licensed in like 36 countries. It's been in the
U .S. for on air for like 25 years. ABC carries
it. And, you know, I was aware of the show as
a kid in high school and, you know, knew about
it and those type of things. And then, you know,
fast forward to the point, the window in time
in my life in which somebody submitted my name
for it. And I was, you know, I was single at
the time. And they're like, oh, it was actually
the lady that. She was my hair stylist or my
hair salon owner. She was like, oh, you know,
you should date this girl, date that girl. She
was always trying to, you know, play Cupid. And
then finally she was like, I'll just put you
on The Bachelor. And so she submitted a file.
A year later, the producers called and set up
a meeting. And then, yeah, before you know it,
I was on a flight to L .A. to join the reality
TV world, as naive as I was just going into it.
And so I jumped in the deep end. And so we started
filming, and it's about a 12 -week filming process.
And so that was my introduction into reality
TV and a little toe in the water as far as just
what goes on behind the scenes in Hollywood and
what it's like to rise to 15 minutes of fame.
and albeit in a format that, which I would learn
later, leaves you very vulnerable to criticism
from all of the viewers. You know, Leila, we
talk on the show a lot about how your online
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it now. Because, you know, they live vicariously
through these folks that are off the street,
casted, you know, just, you know. quote unquote
normal people, everyday people that are single
and casted to go on these shows. And then they
have this sense of, you know, reality and relational
expectations and social schemas of what is expected.
And then the producers have their job to create
a dramatic television show that gets great ratings
and keeps people coming back. And so if that
is at the cost of your reputation. or those type
of things, you waive all of your rights for what
your reputation would look like, your image might
look like at the end of these filming and airing
shows. So it was quite a ride. What year are
we talking about? So this was 2016 when I did
the first reality show. And we filmed from March
through May in 2016, and then it aired that summer.
What's the format? How does it work? Yeah, so
the format is there will be, for The Bachelorette,
it's one woman and usually 25 to 30 guys that
come there. They start filming and then she narrows
it down to one who then... Usually ends up in
a proposal for marriage after the 12 -week filming
process. And then they do the other way as well
where there's a bachelor and 25 or 30 women come
on and do the same thing. So then they have an
island spinoff show where it's basically musical
chairs of people where there's 10 guys and 10
girls. nine guys and ten girls and somebody's
somebody's left out and so they whittle that
down it's a another spin -off concept they have
um but yeah i would say i would use a word of
caution for anybody who wants to put their their
love life their personal life uh into the the
public world and susceptible for all that criticism
but you were you were open to love i suppose
absolutely open to love yeah aren't we all you
know just uh desperate 28 -year -old guys, like,
oh, maybe this will work. Let me just go on a
TV show and see if I can find somebody that I
can be married to. So what were you doing at
the time? Yeah, at the time, I had been working
for a business consulting firm. and College Station,
Texas. Yeah, we just, we consulted. I was doing
sales. We did consulting programs and behavioral
leadership programs for Fortune 500 companies.
And I was, you know, had been in the corporate
world, exited the military a few years prior
to that. And so I was just really, you know,
after my time in the military, I was, you know,
really just, I guess, you know, experiencing
what it was like to just be free from the restrictions
of the military deployments and all those things.
And I was just living life and taking any opportunity
to experience life and try new things. And I
definitely got a full dose of new things in reality
TV. So I imagine you were not unsuccessful in
the more conventional dating world, but you decided,
and somebody threw your hat in the ring. How
many candidates were there for, how many, positions
are there? How many batch, how many potential
other contenders? Yeah. Yeah. So I think there
was like 28 on, on my, on my season. And there
was, you know, one girl and 28 guys. And then,
you know, you go through the first night and
she meets everyone for, you know, I don't know,
a three minute conversation, something like that.
And then within that first night, I think they
probably cut almost half of those. um out and
then and then they continue on and then over
the next couple of weeks everyone gets you know
a date um with the bachelor ed and get to spend
more quality time with them try to get to know
them a little bit and uh but as you could imagine
uh i tell people you know they're always asking
me you know what's it like and if i was to give
the shortest uh you know succinct version of
it um I tell people it's like Hunger Games, but
nobody dies. The production side of it is built
to get an outcome. If you watch multiple seasons,
you'll start seeing the threads and the themes
that they work with that begin to replicate.
They work with the audience and they'll do it
year after year with just different characters
that they cast. Luckily, my experience... I was
kind of the, I don't know what you would call
it, kind of the Cinderella story. You know, I
wasn't the front runner, but I was kind of, you
know, I came in fourth. You know, now you have
to place, there's a hierarchy here. And so when
it comes down to the end of it, I was fourth
from last of getting eliminated from the show.
I had a great what they call an edit. Everything
was positive. Obviously, my military background
was highlighted. I was the quintessential small
-town kid from Texas. They highlighted all that
portion of my background. They build a character
for everyone. I was riding high when it came
off of that show because they were so favorable
with the edit. you know, who I was and felt like
I was like larger than life character watching
it back. And then, you know, it's funny. I did
a spinoff show a couple years later. And I'll
be it was great, great time. It was fun. It was
actually more entertaining and, you know, more
engaging than what I did at the Bachelorette.
It's called Bachelor Winter Games, where they
brought international candidates in to come and
their people are. It's kind of a parody on Olympic,
Winter Olympic sports. And then they weave in
the love angles, love triangle angles and those
type of things as well. And so it was actually
entertaining. So I don't know if you guys can
probably find it on YouTube. It's somewhere out
there. But they take a bunch of people who are
not actual athletes. They're just bachelor candidates
from previous bachelor shows and mix them all
together. And there was, you know, I think there
was 11 or 12 countries there. So there was...
There was folks from Asia, Australia, all these
different continents that were represented there,
Germany, Russia. I mean, it was Belarus. It was
a really crazy experience, a lot of language
barriers, the people trying to also actually
date and put themselves out there on the show.
And not athletic at all, but they filmed every
part of that. I was figure skating, which people
can find that. on youtube yeah i got coached
by nancy kerrigan actually for a couple of days
my second time on ice skates in my life and they
tried to make a little routine out of it so it
was fun but you didn't you did it well you didn't
wipe out uh no i definitely did wipe out yeah
no i was you know looking at stitches on my chin
by the end of it i was always curious how they
select these um bachelors and bachelorettes and
I know we'll talk about your opportunity eventually
you were potentially going to be a bachelor how
do they find these people I mean are they like
esteemed human beings like in every which way
and all the bachelors fall in love with this
woman like what if there's no chemistry there
how does that even work yeah I mean I think that's
part of the production piece of it right And
we can all do a reality check to looking through
the lens of what it's like in the real world,
if you will, and realizing that, you know, how
fragile relationships are and how much the chemistry
matters and if it was actually to work out. And
so, you know, we've all got, you know, dating
experience and however you found your spouse
and you know that that was not just. for most
people, not just the first one that you ever
met, first person you ever dated. It didn't always
just work out like that. Everybody has things
that work, things that don't. And so going on
the show, you know, they usually, after they
built some character or built the characters
out, they're kind of the profile out from doing
an original show. Maybe they were, for me, I
was one of 30 guys and then I was the top four.
So I got a lot of screen time throughout that
bachelorette filming. And so, and like I said,
a favorable edit. So then when they go to roll
over to the next season, which is when they switch
back to, it'd be a bachelor and 30 women, they'll
usually, they would try to pick a cast member
that had some credibility with the audience and
had screen time from previous shows so that the
audience is not having to connect with. you know
that that lead cast member um just cold turkey
they've got something to go off of some some
uh anticipation of knowing them from past season
a past season that type of thing and so um so
you go through a few months and they try to recast
and so i was part of that process of getting
recasted to go be the bachelor which would have
filmed in that that fall following um the bachelorette
that i was on and so there was a couple other
folks that as as well had some previous shows
that they were on and they were cast. And I heard
the last minute ended up not being casted to
be on there. But I think definitely everything
happens for a reason. And I'm actually thankful
that that did not end up happening. Why? You
know, I think, you know, as I look back at it,
I was open at the time. But as I look back at
it, my personal life, you know, I'm a man of
faith. You know, it's just, it's so fabricated.
You know, you're crossing the lines of fabricating
your personal life for the sake of TV ratings,
right? And you're just leaving yourself vulnerable
to that. And so when you're trying to make those
decisions and be thoughtful and prayerful and
self -reflective about who you're with and the
plans that you're making to spend your life with
somebody. When you're doing it in front of TV
cameras with producers that are running narratives
that they need to get and interviewing you. It's
not a moment where you can grow a relationship
truly and know the person that you're... you're
dating in that environment. So I think there's
been a lot of, and history shows that even through
that format, there's a lot of failed relationships.
There was a few that serendipitously made it
through. God bless those folks that actually
met somebody on that show and they were able
to stay with them and have a long -lasting marriage
and a relationship. There's a guy that everyone
remembers. His name is Sean Lowe. Him and his
wife, Catherine, met on that TV show. He lives
here in Dallas. They've got four kids now. They
just have a beautiful family. uh, for several
years. And so, you know, there's about one out
of 10 or something like that, those relationships
from the TV show that will eventually, you know,
make it in the real world. And so, um, you know,
it's just, uh, you gotta be careful with it and
be thoughtful about it. So, so there's a lot
of fabrication going on and you referenced that
you saw yourself on screen and you're larger
than life. And it's like, yeah, what was that?
That's gotta be a strange feeling. Like, What
does that feel like to see yourself with like,
wow, that's like an Uber me. Yeah, David, it's
funny. I've experienced the highs and the lows
of it, both sides of it. So I came up with that
first experience and I had that very favorable
edit I was telling you about. And you're like,
man, I mean, it's really flattering, right? You're
like, man, this is crazy. I feel like I'm a movie
star for a quick moment. And you're seeing yourself
on screen. You're like, this is... wild and then
you know you're getting all now they about halfway
through this show the full running of it say
it's 25 years been airing uh 2012 somewhere social
media came on on you know 2012 2014 but right
before i came on social media became another
factor and right and so previously to that it
was like what are the tabloids at the grocery
store or you know maybe e -news or some outlet
like that would be the limited way that the audience
could connect with these people outside of you
know those episodes that aired for the show and
so then social media became another outlet in
a way that they could directly connect with these
cast members and follow them after they filmed
on the show and uh and so you know, I was in
the middle of that, that kind of social media
boom or Instagram followers and all those things.
So you're getting, you're getting real time interaction
from fans of the show straight to your, straight
to your social media, straight to your phone.
And so, you know, I was just, I was sitting there
with these shows airing and I'm getting six figures
of followers on my Instagram, like after each
episode, I'm like a hundred thousand, another
200 ,000, 300 ,000, 400 ,000. and it's just going
up and you've got people dming you some for business
inquiries and to do appearances and you know
they start trying to monetize you as a celebrity
and then you've got people that actually are
delusional enough or you know whatever it is
to reach out to you and they think they can date
you you know and so your your dms just get full
with all of these propositions of like just everybody
just is following the hype and they want to be
a part of you know something that's famous, something
that, you know, that fame that they're chasing
and they want to be around it. And so, you know,
I experienced that side of it as well. And which
I think really is probably the toughest part.
It starts to cloud your judgment. It kind of,
your self -awareness starts to grow and evolve
in different ways. And so it's a challenge, I
think, for people that have to, you know, Everybody's
coming from a different place, a different point
in life. In college, I majored in sociology.
Obviously, from West Point, my time in the military,
I had a lot of leadership training. Even at that
consulting firm I worked with for business consulting,
we talked about self -awareness and behavioral
profiles. You might see a Myers -Briggs or a
StrengthsFinder behavioral profile if you've
seen that. I went into the show with a pretty
good foundation of self -awareness. a sociological
perspective on looking at, you know, what the
implications of this could be on a person's,
you know, mind, their lifestyle, all those things.
And even still, I found myself getting wrapped
up in the hype and wrapped up in the attention
and the flattery of it all. And, you know, once
you've experienced that full cycle, I would say,
and years later, years pass where I, you know,
I declined to keep going back into that world
and doing more shows. uh and and the fame starts
to fade the new faces come in and it's a revolving
door of you know new celebrities in that reality
world and so i began to see the quality of their
relationships that were getting built during
that time you know it's just they're like sharks
in the water just people are coming to you they
want to be your manager your book your booking
agent they want to you know even the personal
relationship people wanted to date you but not
you're like who wants to actually date who I
am and get to know me as a person have a quality
relationship no they just want to they want to
be close to the fame for a little bit the potential
of being more famous or the hype or whatever
and they're not genuinely authentically looking
to have a relationship with you business or personal
and uh 99 % of the time you know there's a few
out there that you obviously would meet because
of that but Having to learn how to filter through
that and be discerning in the relationships and
the people that you let get close in your circle
was probably one of the biggest challenges and
things that I kind of had to learn the hard way.
So there's like a tape delay in a way. I mean,
they shoot the episode and then it's, I guess,
weeks or months later before the episodes actually
are seen by the public? Yeah, it's about a month
on the post -edit turnaround before the first
episode comes out. And then, of course, it airs
for, what, two months or so. It airs every week
for, yeah, I guess there's about 12 episodes
that air. So when the first episode is coming
out, you're still shooting, though? It hasn't
racked? No, no, right at the, like, the first
episode comes out, and you've just finished shooting,
like, maybe a couple week turnaround from the
last episode. And then the first episode is then
out. Oh, so only a couple week lag, basically.
Yeah, from the last filming episode to the first
airing episode. So then, yeah, so then you've
got another 12 week run of the airing of the
shows, and you're already complete with filming
throughout that. And you're, and you're, I guess
your Instagram is blowing up, basically. Yeah,
well, it is. Yeah, during that time, every time
it airs, every time there's a TV spot, of course,
they do their own publicity for the show and
those type of things. And so if you're on a TV
spot or they'll run an ad or, you know. all those
different things, or even though run traditional
print and you're, you know, I was, I walk in
and see my, my face in the grocery store at Kroger,
just to see my face on the tabloid, you know,
like they're like, Oh, is Luke going to be the
new bachelor? And I'm like, man, this is wild.
What am I? I'm in a grocery store. So, um, it's
just, just the peak of that, just that quick
rise. And then of course it turns over relatively
quickly, you know? Um, so you're a man of faith
and, um, as I, as I know, and, And your social
media is telling you how awesome you are, you
know. And do you ever have moments like, you
know, I like myself. I didn't realize I was that
good. And like, wow, I guess I'm really, really
extraordinary. Did you have that conflict, that
dilemma, that struggle? Yeah. Yeah, David, it
is. It is. It's an incredible feeling, especially
from a sociological background. You know, you
feel this sense of it's just surreal, you know,
for a moment. And you're like, man, this is what
it's like to be famous. You can feel that, you
know, and so people that have that are, you know,
these folks in real Hollywood, I would say that
have, you know. They were on Friends or they
were just some generational character, Jennifer
Aniston or, you know, these type of people that
generationally they're just going to be famous.
When you're in reality, it's like this. quick
splash in the pan uh for reality tv where you're
like really famous for a little bit and you know
famous people might know who you are on a on
a late night talk show or or whatever and then
uh and then that moment kind of passes too and
so then and then for me in the bachelor world
i went back into that um that spin -off i was
telling you about and the last for whatever reason
i caught like a very they took an opportunistic
time to catch me in a bad edit the last like
30 seconds of the entire season on a reunion
show even after it all aired there was a reunion
show and the producers caught a 30 second period
of time where they were like well we need to
spice this up and make this seem like there was
you know they'll take a pop culture trendy word
so there's the word ghosting was really popular
at the time and so they made it seem like i ghosted
a girl that i had talked to for the two -week
filming period for that show that we had done
she was from uh stockholm sweden great girl but
we had very clearly talked about hey like i've
only known you for two weeks at this tv show
you live in stockholm i'm in tennessee and like
this is not we're not going to pursue this in
the real world you know and then six weeks later
they do the reunion show and they make this very
emotional deal And it's like I ghosted her, never
called her again, like really let her on. And
so then, like I was telling you, I saw the volatility
of it. It's like my Instagram followers, you
know, were up, up, up, up, up. And then as that
show aired, immediately within the next day,
I lost like 100 ,000 followers. And people were
like sending hate mail to my mom. You're a villain.
I'm a villain. I mean, in 30 seconds of an edit.
And I didn't even do anything. They just caught
me like in a commercial break. kind of just staring
off in the distance in this tv studio and they
used that edit as as like they used it as like
the girl was like talking to me very emotional
while and then they they cut to me while i was
kind of staring it looked like i was just staring
while she was just like ignore i was ignoring
her but it looked like they edited me to do it
manufactured that oh yeah they manufactured it
completely i was like man this is this is unbelievable
that they made it this blatant or whatever i'm
luke pell you can't do this to luke pell yeah
yeah yeah it was wild so but i i got i got the
full spectrum of feeling the highs and the lows
of reality tv you know and so that was really
to get back to you know your main theme of the
cancellation piece of that that was one of those
big you know at least the initial time which
I was ever canceled was during that period and
that spin -off show and I was like wow this can
really this can turn upside down on you very
quickly and you really don't have control of
you know you can be a great person and do the
best that you can control your image and be positive
But they can still find a way to, you know, edit
you because you paid all those rights. You're
just the cog in the wheel of reality TV. So you
saw that 30 -second clip at the same time all
of America saw it. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Well,
yeah, it was incredible. Were you alone? Even
from the filming of it, I was the last one to
come out. Like, they had a soundstage set up.
the cast members are sitting there they kind
of interviewed a few of them and then follow
-ups and say well who's who's uh you know let's
catch up with these folks since we finished filming
where are they at now kind of thing they waited
to the very end because they kind of had this
all prepped and they brought me out after they
had shown and asked the you know the girl sweet
girl again and it's like we knew each other for
two weeks of this show but it seemed like you
know there was this big legitimate you know relationship
and she they got her to be emotional because
they knew she they had seen that she would be
easily emotional and um and so then i walk out
and i'm like walking out to booze to the live
audience that's like in the and i'm like what
what what's going on i did not see it coming
i was like i'm getting booed by a live audience
and i don't know why you saw did you see the
clip at least had you had the benefits on the
clip they shown it they showed a clip to the
live audience and had, you know, and the guy,
you know, Chris Harrison, which everybody knows
was famous for the show for a long time. That's
the host. He had interviewed and asked that the,
the girl, um, it asked her, you know, a couple
of questions and she started kind of getting
emotional and said, I haven't heard from him
since then. I thought we were going to be like
a big thing. And, and so then I walk out from
behind the curtain and the crowd just like, they're
just had them so teed up, ready to just boo me.
Uh, it was, uh, Oh yeah. It was wild. But anyway,
good times. So that was the beginning of your
cancellation journey, in effect. Yeah, for sure.
And then much later on, now I've got the social
media following, even leaving that, lost followers
for that one event. But then as I spoke to politics
or truly, I went through an evolution. Again,
back to this kind of self -awareness and learning
myself and understanding that my window to the
world and my voice to the world is through my
social media channels after that experience.
Whatever, a few hundred thousand, half a million
people, whatever that watch what I do in my life.
Then for that time, there was a time in there
where I felt the pressure to post things and
curate. those feeds to what the audience would
like right and then before this incident or after
no after after you're trying to repair well repair
and then just a sense of like it's built so that
um you're getting approval or lack of for what
you post right and so your post then my post
became like well i don't want to post anything
too controversial because if i do then i might
get cancelled again or i might get more negative
feedback and so you start thinking about well
let me post you know something a little bit more
vanilla or more politically correct or not too
polarizing so that we'll get a lot of likes it'll
be a very nice post but It won't hurt me if I
want to monetize these followers and do some
type of ads or whatever. And so I went through
that phase and I started feeling really just
discontent with myself. I said, I don't feel
comfortable to post who I really am. Even at
my best, I feel like I have to filter it to get
accepted by these. four or five hundred thousand
people that are watching my stuff. And so I really,
you know, that was one of the biggest things
that now I look back and I'm glad that I was
able to see that and come through it because
I think a lot of people get tied up in that.
And even, you know, Hollywood, I can see where
they, their entire careers. are about being curated
to what the audience wants, what the manager
wants, whatever their network wants to be put
out there as a message. And so I got to understand
that firsthand and really get back in touch with
the reality of being myself and being authentic
to what I post, regardless of if I lose 100 ,000
followers. I'm like, well, it's truly my voice.
And I'm going to use it to the best of my ability
for positive things in the world to make an impact.
And if a portion of that audience doesn't want
to follow me because of it or they have negative
comments, that's fine. I don't care. And so I
finally got through that portion and so got on
the other side of it. How long was that period
to work through that process? I think it was
probably a couple of years. Because I was monetizing,
you know, and like I said, people started calling
and the phone rings and they're like, oh, you
know, come do this appearance or come do, throw
out the first pitch over here or, you know, they're
like, you know, doing these things for your presence.
And so you're like, well, I need to, you know,
the more followers I have, the more, you know,
valuable I am for these different opportunities.
And so. when i finally separated from the monetization
of that in terms of just being the bachelor guy
and saying well i am what i am who i am you know
and so i think really kind of during covid i
started i think you know there was where the
whole country was getting polarized the whole
world's getting polarized on and vaccines and
masking and what your habits were and all these
things. And so you're getting negative DMs about
not wearing a mask or you're traveling or what
you're doing on your social media. And so that
was a very volatile time of seeing it. And coming
out of that, I had kind of given up on the monetization
of social media and said, I'm going to be who
I am. I'm not going to depend on this as an income
stream anymore. If there's a brand, if there's
a social media audience that's aligned with who
I am, then great. But if I have to recycle all
of these TV fans that are just fictitious fans
anyway that see me as a reality TV character
in the light that they edited me, then that's
fine. I'll have to turn all those fans over and
just move on with my life and worry about a family
and a real legacy. in my non -profits that i
really have a passion for to make real impact
and and change lives and and and i learned there's
so much more than just appeasing an audience
on social media so during that two -year period
um must have been very it sounds like it was
a very confusing time you know what's going on
who am i what am i doing here how did i get here
what's my mission and purpose you know trying
to find your grounding you know um did it get
dark did it how bad did it get how what was your
or your lowest moments if you don't mind sharing
yeah I think just some of my lowest moments where
you know I was I was I had gotten wrapped up
in it and I'm a person that I'm competitive I
want to be really good at what I do um I'm also
for those that are familiar I'm an Enneagram
three so I want to I know Enneagrams sure In
Enneagram 3, you have this propensity to be a
chameleon. You want to be liked. You want your
reputation to be clean. You're aware of that
and what others think of you. I think it's even
more difficult in that world to separate yourself
from wanting to be liked by your social media
followers. But when you dig back into the roots
of it, I was depressed. I was in depression.
I was like, ah, I mean, waking up every day and
I can't, if I say what I want to say, then there's
these negative comments and just you're losing
followers. It's just this constant signal that
you're receiving that you're being disapproved
by the world, disapproved by these people, those
people. and so you know being in a constant state
of disapproval starts to really wear on your
your psyche and you you wake up and you're like
man oh everybody hates me today you know and
so if you're not able to separate your personal
value from what trolls online or just random
people all over the world that don't really know
you but they have the access to comment and and
get inside your head or message you or go on
blogs and all these things it's like it's like
i feel one of the darkest places anybody could
ever go for their their self -worth is if it's
not you know lock solid is to go into reddit
you go into some reddit threads and just look
yourself up You know, golly, I mean, that's the
quickest way to just, you know, go in a very
dark hole. It's just absolute, just a world of
just trolls and just criticism and just gossip
and just allegations and everything's negative
and just piling on. It's wild. To this day, is
there any particular post in Reddit or otherwise
that still resonates with you and reverberates?
uh i yeah i think just some of the even some
of the like the they were naming the threads
like with versions of my name like luke luke
from hell or something like that and like they're
just it's just insane what they were coming up
with and um it was just absolutely just it was
just at the time i was like oh i don't want to
see this and i know that i shouldn't like let
it affect me but it's hard not to once you read
those things you're just like i have to just
put this down and never come back to this again
because i don't know these people it doesn't
have anything to do with my value but it is digging
into me uh in a dark way so when you woke up
in the morning would you pick up your phone and
like check it out and see what's going on oh
yeah there was definitely a period of time yeah
where i was like you're like it's new it's fresh
and you're kind of wanting to What are they saying
now? Until that realization moment, you're like,
man, the world will come at you. The world will
never champion you. There will always be critics.
You just got to find a place deep inside and
with your faith that says, hey, this is not me.
I'm the only one between me and God that knows
my story and knows my truth. I've got to move
forward. I don't know if you're aware of the
reason why we even had a show in the first place,
because my wife and I, who's sick and I'm flying
solo today. Yeah. We have a school, Center Academy,
and we had some very outspoken opinions about
social distancing and masking and vaccinations
and all that. And it became a whole global media
thing. And and among other things, our phones
were blowing up at the school so much. People
calling with saying nasty, nasty stuff that.
the poor receptionist who was answering the phone
we had to rotate them out because they just couldn't
handle me answering the phone so it's just wow
pretty pretty horrible people can be people look
at the worst versions of themselves when they're
anonymous online really oh absolutely yeah they
have they're emboldened with just so much you
know, just those keyboard warriors. They'll absolutely
go to war on a keyboard. You know, things that
they wouldn't, and most of those people would
never say to your face, would never have, you
know, the guts to say that. But they'll say it
behind the keyboard when they've got anonymity.
There's a classic New York magazine cartoon that
has a picture of a dog in front of a computer,
and it says on the internet, nobody knows you're
a dog. Yeah, that's very true. And, you know,
and I have family members who, actually think
it's fun sport to troll because they, because
they don't, they don't, they can't be identified.
It's not, it's not right. It doesn't feel right.
Don't do that. You know? So where were all your
friends and family in all this? Did you feel
alone? I mean, that's been kind of a recurring
theme of all our guests. You feel sort of alone
in all of this. Yeah, no, I definitely did. Especially
after that first punch, I think. um it was just
you know and i was in nashville during that time
so i had also you know been dipping my toe into
creating music and i've listened to some of your
your music very talented really nice yeah yeah
radio yeah nice good stuff thank you that was
a fun time Truly something that, you know, yeah,
absolutely. So from a kid, you know, this is
something that was a passion of mine. And I didn't
never know if I would have the route in life
to be able to even experience it. And I was given
that opportunity in Nashville for, you know,
a number of years. And, you know, because like
the show. No, it was like I had the opportunity
before the show. with a publishing company and
a guy that was also originally from Texas and
he was a successful songwriter, had number one
songs on the radio and he kind of brought me
in under his wing and said, hey, I like what
you're doing and I think you're talented, let's
write some songs and do those things. So that
industry in and of itself, it's also similar
to the film industry in terms of the same PR,
the marketing, the same platforms, all those
things. But again, It was also very difficult
and it's very volatile in terms of being successful.
The stars have to align in terms of talent, timing,
the team, all those things that are around you,
how you're marketed. At the end of the day, the
songs have to be the best songs at the top of
the heap of Nashville. And so, you know, that
was something that I was going through. And so
I was, you know, doing that, considering doing
that, you know, as a career and those type of
things. Then the TV thing happened, and so I
was kind of doubled down into the entertainment
world in two different ways, the reality TV and
the music deal. They were somewhat, which I didn't
know at the time, they would be very conflicting
because of the nature of the dating show. It
kind of devalidated me with a lot of country
music fans, which I found out later. I played
over 100 shows a year for a few years and toured
around the country at different venues. And I
found out that, like, oh, well, they would try
to take the shortcut of marketing me as the venue
to, like, hey, there's a TV guy, right? And then
your normal country music fan that's, you know,
just a guy that, you know, is a mechanic in Kansas
or, you know, whatever. those guys were alienated
from like, oh, there's a guy at a bachelorette.
I'm not listening to his stuff. What kind of
pansy man, reality man is this, you know? And
so it's funny just, you know, kind of the schema
of what people expected in the country music
world. So I found that out along the way. I was
like, oh, wow, you know, this is, I got all these
bachelorette fans that follow me around the country
and go buy tickets to these music shows, but
I'm not really getting the typical country music
fan. And so those two things conflicted later
on. But then when I take this big hit of that
first cancellation after that spinoff TV show,
I'm working with music managers, music booking
agencies, and all these things. And they're calling
me because now they're concerned, right? I have
a publicist on the music side of things. Now
she's got to put together some type of, you know,
piece to revive, you know, the publicity of this.
And they feel the pressure saying, well, you're
losing 100 ,000 followers. That's important.
The music business, you know, overnight, we've
got to fix this. And so I think that moment is
when I really felt I was like, oh, man, this
this ship can sink really quickly and can turn
around very quickly. especially when I'm dependent
upon the entertainment industry as a whole to
try to navigate that and that be a career. So
that was one big piece of it. But through it
all, David, I think when I came to the other
side of it is when, you know, COVID. It really
silenced all live shows for music during that
time. My last show I played in public was in
Malibu, California in February of 2020. And then
COVID happened a month later. And then the whole
music industry shut down for live music and concerts,
of course, all of 2020, most of 2021. And so
during that time, I had been working on some
other stuff. I knew that I needed to pivot. And
so I got into commercial real estate. and I opened
up a moving company franchise, just a couple
other business ventures. that would then parlay
me out of dependency upon the entertainment world.
Because I had seen what it could do, how volatile
it was, and just how kind of soul -sucking it
could be to always be trying to post and appease
those audiences. And so once I separated my career
back again into commercial real estate away from
it didn't matter how many followers I had, it
didn't matter if I was getting booked for a music
show or anything like that. I'm living my life.
I'm moving on back into the entrepreneur world.
Then I felt alive again. I had a new network
of colleagues and business partners and those
type of things, and I had a new direction in
life and in my career to get away from that dependency
of social media. So earlier we were talking about
how you kind of have to sell your soul in a way
to be on reality TV, but the same holds true
for music. Sure. You know, non -reality TV and
movies and so on. Do you see anybody who's been
able to navigate it in a way where they don't
lose their soul? Is that even possible these
days? You know, I think it is. For one big piece
of it was that I got that following and got that
15 minutes of fame from the Bachelor TV franchise.
And so all followings are not the same. If somebody
has organically built, let's say, Turning Point,
Charlie Kirk. He's been on the show, by the way.
Oh, amazing. Love Charlie. Known him for several
years. Always support what he's doing. I think
it's a generational catalyst that is going to
prove dividends well into the next couple of
decades of what he's doing. He's playing the
long game, and I think that's an amazing thing
for the conservative world. He's built that following
that's all conservatives from day one. That's
been the brand. That's been his brand. Everything's
aligned. There's not a conflict there with what
his followers see and what they post. It's in
alignment. He gets into the controversial world
when he goes outside of his subscribers, his
followers, all those things, and he goes outside
of that, and they get in conflict on the other
side of the aisle from a political standpoint.
Yes, there's controversy there, but he still
has his core followers, and there's not conflict
of interest there of what he's posting with those
followers. Well, his cancellation journey was
a little different because he got massively throttled
down by Twitter to nothingness. Agreed. Yeah,
that's a great point. The followers, but they
couldn't hear his voice because he didn't have
a voice. The algorithms, yeah. That's a whole
other level of cancellation where it's in this
incognito mode of algorithms and the old ownership
of Twitter and how that was. I mean, even still,
there is kind of... shadow banning that's on
Instagram. And I started experiencing that. How?
Well, when I would post, like, because I was
a bachelorette guy, I had, you know, all kinds
of different political backgrounds. And that
was one of my other things, not just was I getting
negative comments from directly from followers
and losing followers and all those type of things.
But then the views would be. you know where I
learned what shadow banning was like you know
probably five six years ago but the views I would
have massive amounts of views when I was posting
bachelorette stuff or even posting personal stuff
that wasn't political or wasn't you know faith
-based or whatever and as soon as I post some
of those things your views just get completely
throttled down and I saw that firsthand and so
I would experience the ups and downs, and I'm
like, oh, this is not a coincidence. It's not
just happens to be, oh, the people that are liking
and viewing this are all here. They're not even
getting access to it. It's algorithmically. It's
not even a manual intervention. This is the robots
dictating who gets to see what. It's a foundational
algorithm. That they bake into those platforms.
And so, yeah, Facebook and Instagram were the
biggest for me. I didn't, you know, have as much
of a presence. I wasn't active on Twitter. So
I didn't, you know, have it as much there or
notice it as much there. But, yeah, definitely
on Instagram. It throttled it back so hard. And
still does to this day. It's wrong. I mean, that's
why we do the show. Oh, it really is. It really
is. Like, you know. especially for the people
who go out and organically build a very large
audience. And now their audience can't see, you
know, what they're posting. So, I mean, it's
like, what is the point? The audience follows
you in order to view. So, like, you know, you
have to deal with these workarounds where it's
like, oh, add them as a subscriber or turn this
setting off. You know, there's a lot of, you
know, people that will post, like, how to go
deep into your settings and change this so you
can. get a guaranteed view of you know this certain
profile otherwise you're gonna just gonna get
blocked on on an algorithm piece so um where
where so your conservative values and all that
they did that become an issue um like historically
the things that you posted a long time ago or
is that more like a real -time kind of impact
as you went along no you know i think the first
time and that went into the tabloid level uh,
of controversy was during the, uh, Kavanaugh
hearings. I, I, I posted, um, you know, something
with a, you know, you would consider it a conservative,
really even wasn't slanted. It wasn't, you know,
uh, something that was one way or the other in
terms of, I just basically was playing devil's
advocate and say, you know, this, this, this
seems like a, uh, you know, a hoax. This seems
like a goose chase. Just for our audience, Brett
Kavanaugh, the Supreme Court Justice nominee,
is that correct? Yeah, they were going through
his, it was his confirmation hearings that was
all over the mainstream media. I believe it was
a time where he was just getting, obviously the
Democrats didn't want him to get confirmed. Then
they started digging back into his skeletons
in his closet. If you don't know, he was like,
oh, he drank a beer. Then there was this allegation
of where he was in high school at this party
in the Hamptons, et cetera, et cetera, at his
family home. That was this big hearing. Obviously,
you see that at the end of the day, he was confirmed
years later. All I said was like, wow, this seems
out of proportion. I think there needs to be
more facts here. something to that nature and
posted that on Twitter. And I mean, it was not
even that egregious of an opinion that I said
or that strong of an opinion, but it was something
with an air of conservatism to it and support
of the conservative movement. And here it goes.
I mean, at the time I was still... in that limelight
enough that it was enough clickbait for you know
us weekly people magazine you know all those
e -news people to pick it up and run it oh yeah
they were covering it and and so there was a
big blogger um that follows reality tv and he
kind of made a name for himself his name is reality
steve was his handle and so he followed all the
reality shows started bachelor and it kind of
became then he started his own podcast and so
he became a voice for those shows And so if you
did something that he thought was controversial
even after a show, which was in my case, he'd
grab it, he'd tweet about it, and then that became
fodder for those other news outlets to then pick
up what he said about it. And, you know, it was
just – that was another moment where I was like,
wow, this canceling thing is no joke whatsoever.
I want to get Reality Steve on this show and
duke it out with this guy. Right? Yeah. Yeah.
He doesn't like doing that. He likes people to
come on his show. He has control of the edit.
He doesn't want to go into a place where it might
be fair and balanced. I think this cancellation
is even worse now because now it's not even what
you say. If you like, I think people are tracking
likes now. Oh, absolutely. Right? It's a scary
direction. People think the cancel culture is
over, but I think we've only just begun. I think
it's going to get even worse. Yeah, the stakes
are getting higher, which is interesting. You
know, I think that, you know, it's been interesting
to see, you know, the Twitter ownership change
was a big moment. And supposedly those algorithms
were open now with changing the ex -ownership
taking over. Meta, I don't believe, has changed.
But, you know, they're going through, there's
a lot of hearings now where they're talking about,
you know, What was the role of these major social
media platforms in meddling in political realms?
Are they meddling in an election? And so I know
there's a lot of investigations that have gone
into that over the years. And I think that it's
coming out. I feel like there's been a couple
of judgments that there was definitely, I mean,
we've seen it on mainstream. media um we saw
in this last election cycle where uh it was the
60 minutes piece was was was huge where there
was the kamala harris interview on 60 minutes
and they did the edit and then they did the unedited
version and it was completely two different answers
in the middle i mean weeks before an actual presidential
election and you're meddling and want the answer
to a huge international relations topic comes
up and you're going to meddle and edit that like
it's reality TV, right? I mean, 60 Minutes was
taking it upon themselves to edit a presidential
candidate as if they were on a reality TV show.
I mean, just unbelievable. I would imagine on
some level you must see this as sort of a blessing.
Your journey, your experience is something that
not a lot of people will ever get to experience.
Would you say? I'm very thankful for the experience.
I think that it's leading me to a place of more
impact. It's galvanizing my self -awareness.
It's galvanizing my self -worth so that, you
know, here in the future, as I, you know. look
to give back, to grow young leaders and those
type of things. I can speak to it from a place
of personal experience and hopefully move the
needle for future generations somewhat and just
prepare them for what's coming. There's a lot
to come in the future, a lot of threats that
will continue down this... down this path and
not just in the cancellation world as we've seen
it in mainstream media and social media, but
you can have the whole podcast series on where
we're going in terms of AI and how that's going
to take us to a whole new level of cancellation
where it'll be canceled before it even exists,
right? It's going to be curated and canceled
and put back out in a cleaner, sanitized version.
of messaging by whoever controls it by whoever
whoever's got the most money whoever is in control
of your ai algorithms and so that's the next
level of what we've seen you know these large
meta x twitter all these guys do leading up to
this point in the last decade the next decade
is going to be what what they'll do um in terms
of ai control of messaging and so um Look, I'm
thankful for the experience that I've had. Now
I'm a chairman of two different nonprofits. One's
for veterans that have been injured in combat.
We help them. heal through music and art programs.
That program's been going 11 years. It's called
creativevets .org. We're out of Nashville, Tennessee.
And then another one, we're doing anti -human
trafficking task forces across the country where
we work with law enforcement agencies to help
them get the funding that they need to add detectives,
to add technology packages, and all these things
that they have to combat human trafficking and
sexual exploitation on the dark web. And so,
you know, I wouldn't be as passionate probably
about those two things and having real impact
if I didn't go through, you know, what I went
through and experienced the highs and lows of
reality TV and being canceled and what it's like.
And I can come at it from a whole different angle
and understand real impact, understand the threats
that are out there and the landscape that we're
moving into in terms of, you know, social platforms
and cancellation across all media platforms.
Why don't you give a plug? Let's just say the
names of your nonprofits that you've created.
Yeah, so creativevets .org is my veteran nonprofit
in Nashville, Tennessee. We help veterans heal
through music and art programs. And then we have
operationlightshine .org. And we're also based
out of Nashville, Tennessee, but we've got six
task forces across the eastern seaboard, two
in Florida. We have one in Virginia, one in Maryland.
one in Nashville, Tennessee as well. And we,
like I said, fund law enforcement agencies so
that they can better fight and allocate resources
and training for them to fight the ever -growing,
exponentially growing, dare I say, crime that
is child sexual exploitation, CSAM material that
is growing across the internet, growing across
the dark web. Not to mention in addition to is
the actual human trafficking portion of that,
which is the physical trafficking with intent
to create child sexual abuse material. It's beautiful
work. You know, your journey is just so unique.
Practically nobody is going to have these experiences
that you've had. Do you think that. Were there
any mistakes made along the way? What would you
have done differently? Would you have not done
your music and your reality at the same time?
If you could have a redo, what would you have
done differently? Oh, I would have done a lot
of things differently, but nothing differently
at the same time. I think everything happens
for a reason, and the trials and the highs and
lows that I went through, I learned something.
But if I was to look for a better experience
from the beginning, I would have put my personal
life into reality TV. Nothing wrong with reality
TV as a whole. I think the better formats are
probably like The Amazing Race or Survivor or
something that's more competitive and not tied
to your personal life. That gets into a really
muddy place for you after you do the TV show
as the rest of the world follows you based off
of your personal life. Who you date, who you
married, now it's all clouded because of that
experience. I probably would have picked a different
reality TV. experience if i if i had to do it
all over again um yeah music great great experience
for me um again the relational personal life
reality tv did not mix well with the music that
i was doing um some people some people that has
and and does work well um for um chase rice was
a guy that was on survivor years ago and then
he segued into big country music career um and
then there's obviously reality tv that's tied
to music from you know the tv shows that are
music based from american idol and the voice
and those different ones nashville stars where
miranda lambert as Sean came from. There's definitely
recipes for success out there. Mine was unique
in and of itself. I don't regret any of it. I
know it's all happening for a reason. I know
that there's impact to be made in the future.
I'm thankful to be on the other side of it, wiser.
uh and and more prepared for for what's to come
so you know my wife and i are trying to start
our family now um and you know i i've got something
to to give to my kids a legacy to grow um because
you know the world's uh just gonna get more dangerous
and it's gonna get more confusing uh in the next
generation i know that for a fact and so i want
to be able to prepare that generation for what's
to come as much as I can. You have to talk to
the lady who does your hair so that she submits
your application for these other shows. Yeah.
We'll have to circle back with Kim and see if
she'll submit me to something more fun. So clearly
you've had a lot of time to think about your
journey. And it's a really great story. This
is really a lot of fun. Thanks for coming on
the show. And I hope and pray that the rest of
your life is only good at it, Luke. Thank you.
David, I appreciate the time. Thanks so much
for having me on. I enjoyed the conversation.
Appreciate you. Thank you so much.