Sometimes I would have psychiatric episodes and
it led me further down the path until I had surgery
at 15 years old. I hadn't even had like a driver's
course yet. Like I was too young to drive a car
and yet I was allowed to undergo this permanent
removal of a completely healthy part of my body.
That was incredibly damaging and ultimately that
was the catalyst to me realizing that this was
the wrong choice. What an amazing guest we had
today, Chloe Cole, who transitioned at a very,
very early age and then de -transitioned. And
as a result, she got ostracized. I don't know,
all kinds of hell you've been through where they
tried to cancel you, made you feel bad. And today
you're here to share your journey with us about
your own cancellation. Thank you for joining
us today. Really appreciate having you. Thank
you for having me. Yeah. You know, I don't know
if you know about this. My wife and I run a school.
And it goes from Centner Academy. It's in Miami.
And we also have two little kids. And this concept
of devices, using the cell phones, is something
that we really try to lock down, but not a lot
of families do. And from watching interviews
that you've done, I think maybe the beginning
of your journey, if you will, started with unfettered
access to your cell phone or a computer. Is that
sort of what happened? Yes, that was definitely
a big part of it. I wouldn't have known about
these destructive ideologies such as transgenderism
were it not for my early access to the internet.
You know, Leila, we talk on the show a lot about
how your online reputation can be used against
you, but what if you could take back control?
Guess what? What? Erase .com does exactly that.
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it. Do it now. Do it now. And without it being...
so unrestricted and i absolutely agree with you
that a lot of families i think that there is
a way to introduce technology to children in
a very gradual and safe way but not in the way
that a lot of parents are just like giving their
their children phones when they're still in elementary
school and letting them access whatever they
want without any monitoring or any filtering
i can't even imagine what it's like to be a little
kid to see some of this stuff That's on an unlocked
phone. I mean, back in the day, I'm old enough,
if I wanted to see stuff like that, I'd have
to really go out of my way to go to a magazine
shop and it'd be covered in plastic wrap. And
it's just like, now a phone is unlocked. You
can just go straight to some of those horrifying
visual imagery, right? That just can't be good
for a little brain. I mean... The Internet really
is a massive information highway with all of
what humanity has to offer. A lot of it is good.
A lot of it is good information. But also a lot
of it is unhelpful at best or just for children,
developmentally harmful at the absolute worst.
And a lot of the traffic on the Internet is from
websites that have pornography on them. And obviously
for children, that is incredibly inappropriate,
but it's also one of the easiest things that
you could access on the internet. And I think
the average age of exposure now is roughly between
the ages of 10 to 12 years old, which is, it's
just unbelievable. I mean, for me, I was exposed
pretty young. I started learning about these
things when I was still in my elementary school
years, and my first actual exposure to pornography
and seeing hardcore pornography on a screen was
not on a cell phone, but actually on a school
device that was completely unmonitored. That's
crazy. Did they fix that vulnerability since
then? They did end up starting to use... um filters
on these school devices but that was only about
like five to six years into them rolling them
out in my school district and a lot of school
districts are still um not doing that on their
on the devices that they're that they're giving
to these kids i know we've had our own uh issues
with our own school with a couple of uh opportunities
where kids were able to go to whatever they wanted
on on the devices and and it was just like really
bad a lot of a lot of parents were like There
was an outcry of the parents. What is the right
amount? What is the right access that you give
a little kid? I'm just curious what your thoughts
are. I think that ideally it's something that
you should wait until they're in the later stage
of their development, like maybe early, mid,
or even late adolescence, to start introducing
them to the Internet. And, of course, you should
be monitoring everything. both while you're with
them and from afar. You should have like a proctor
service on their phone or whatever device they
have and also personally teach them about how
they should be using the internet as a tool for
networking with people, a tool for staying in
contact with friends and family and learning,
but also the dangers that can be present on it.
The bad actors can be on there who might want
to prey on you or the fact that there is There
are things that are not developmentally appropriate
to access at one's age and the dangers of that.
So take us back to the beginning of your journey
of transitioning because a lot of people maybe
don't know who you are. And just share with us
a little bit of how that all started. So all
of these issues of the internet and of children
being exposed to inappropriate things are an
integral part of my own personal testimony. I'm
somebody who went through the process of a childhood
medical and social gender transition from a female
identity into a male lifestyle. And I came back
from that all before I was even 18 years old.
I was 12 when I started to call myself a boy.
I was 13 when I was put, I was expedited onto.
the medical process with Lupron as a puberty
blocker, weekly injections of testosterone, and
a surgery to remove my breasts before I de -transitioned
at 16. And in my earlier years as a little girl,
before I had believed that I was a boy, I mean,
when I was really young, I was actually quite
a feminine girl. I loved pink. I loved wearing
bright colors. My dad often tells me, you know,
when you were really little, you wouldn't even
want to leave the house if you weren't wearing,
like, a bright color or a cute dress. And I loved
playing dress -up with my sisters. I loved when
they put makeup on me and playing with dolls.
But as I got older, I found that I just... tended
to align a little bit more with the boys around
me eventually, especially like my older brothers,
my male friends at school. I started to take
upon more stereotypically masculine interests,
things like video games, exploring, being outside,
and other parts of my personality started to
shift with that. I started to cut my hair shorter.
I started to wear more comfortable, more boyish
clothing. I remember at the time that I started
to hit puberty, I tried makeup, I tried purses
and the things that the other girls around me
were doing, and it just didn't feel right for
me. But it wasn't something that I was particularly
uncomfortable with either. I considered myself
to be a tomboy. And I love that about myself
because it felt like something that made me unique,
that made me strong, that set me apart from the
other kids my age. But eventually... As I started
to go through the course of puberty and as all
these changes in my life started to happen, not
only socially, but also with my own body, with
my breasts starting to develop, with the shape
of my body starting to change, and realizing
that there are certain expectations placed on
me as a woman, some of which are harder to keep
up with than others, and that people were now
looking at me in a different light. now that
I was developing into a young woman, especially
at such a young age. I was about nine years old
when I started going through puberty. So it was
a little over for me. I was one of the first
few girls in my class to start going through,
to start developing physically. And it was very
deeply uncomfortable in a lot of ways. And it
brought me attention that I didn't really want
or need at that time, including from adults who
would make sometimes gross comments about my
body. Sometimes it was teachers. Sometimes it
was people on the Internet. And I also had felt
for a very long time, for pretty much as long
as I can remember, this feeling of being different
somehow, of something separating me from my peers.
It later turned out that I actually had a learning
disability and that affected the way that I thought
and behaved and experienced the world. And sometimes
because of those differences, oftentimes actually,
from a very early age, other kids would pick
on me and they would bully me. And I felt like
I had to harden myself against the world. I had
a hard time connecting with pretty much anybody,
especially the adults around me. I didn't know
if there was anybody who I could confide in.
So a lot of these deep feelings that I had, I
would keep them down. And the only place that
I really had to express them was either art or
through the internet. And eventually I started
to turn to technology to fulfill these unmet
social needs that I had as a kid, the unmet love
that I didn't really have from a lot of the people
around me other than my mom and dad. And eventually
the internet started to consume more of my life
than my everyday waking life did. It was Instagram.
Especially. Yeah, I primarily used Instagram
and social media. But even before that, when
I started getting my school device, I was in
fifth grade. And we were allowed to take these
home. So I would browse the internet when I was
at home and play video games and meet people
online. And eventually I got my first phone about
a year or so after that. And it was like... The
internet was closer than ever now. It was something
that I didn't have to have it. I didn't have
to be on a computer and sit down somewhere and
connect it to the internet because now the internet
was everywhere that I could go at the click of
a button in my pocket. And so it just, it consumed
my life more and more and more until I was like
pretty much, I didn't really have any friends
at school because I felt like I... I wasn't really
like any of the other kids, and I felt more like
the kids who I met online. And it just kept drawing
me in until... When I started using Instagram,
the social media algorithms will tend to cater
themselves to the interests of the user. And
so I started seeing a lot of stuff that was tailored
to my own interests of things like art, video
games, the other media that I would consume.
and the fans around them. And I started to, I
found it just so interesting how in these communities,
like these other kids, they were very much like
me. Many of them were artistic. Many of them
were really smart kids who were different in
some way. And they seemed to find a sense of
comfort. in their friendships on the internets.
But a lot of these kids also had another unique
quality. Many of them identified as members of
the LGBT community. Some of them called themselves
gay or lesbian. Many of them called themselves
bisexual. But most of these kids who applied
this label to themselves were people who called
themselves transgender. And that was a word that
I had heard on the TV a few times. Sometimes
I would hear the adults in my family talking
about it, talking about the news to each other
about it. But I never really had any personal
interest in it until I started seeing these other
children engaging it and living out this lifestyle.
And it was just, it was, it was very novel. Like
it was something that was very intellectually
stimulating for me. because there was so much
there was not only the personal experiences of
these people to to read off of but also i discovered
like a lot of like medical literature around
it which i found very very interesting at the
time and i started to read more and more up on
it until it started to feel like personally there
was a reason why i felt so attached this idea
of people identifying as the opposite sex and
so i started to reflect on myself and i thought
well you know The older I get, the less I feel
feminine and the less I feel like a girly woman.
And it feels like this is something... Like,
I don't really feel comfortable with the idea
of growing up into a woman and having to deal
with the sexual tension that I get just for being
developed and for... And I thought, like, I would
never be feminine. I thought that I would never
go into a feminine woman, that I never would
be enough because of that. And there are times
when I would look at myself in the mirror and
think, I'm just, like, I'm too, there's no way
that I'm going to be happy that way. I wish that
I was born a boy like my older brothers. I would
have been so much happier. And eventually those
thoughts turned into, maybe I would be. Maybe
I am a young man. Maybe that's why I'm not comfortable
with myself. Sometimes as a thought experiment,
I think, what kind of woman would I be? And I
would be a terrible woman because I am so not
into the clothes and the hair and the makeup
and, you know, looking pretty and all that. So
I can maybe relate to a certain extent, you know.
It's just a feeling inside of us. And so this
was resonating with you. Going along, you sort
of found a community that resonated with you.
Right, absolutely. It was almost uncanny how
in almost every way these kids were just so relatable
to me. And I think it was the first time that
I really had ever felt understood in my life.
And it seemed like... For the most part, I wasn't
directly interacting with these people, but I
kind of lived through them vicariously as they
moved through the process of transitioning, as
they started to question, and then eventually
they decided that they wanted to become a member
of the opposite sex, start dressing like the
opposite sex, and eventually some of them went
on to go on the medical interventions very young.
And the social acceptance that they would get,
the praise. the seemingly being loved for who
they thought they were, it started to hit me
that these all were things that I really yearned
for. And I thought, not only would I get a sense
of personal gratification and a sense of peace
with myself through doing this, I also would
develop and make connections with a community
of people who were just like me. Can you give
an idea how big this community was or is? I mean,
I think in the United States alone, a few million
people identify as transgender, and I think that's
just adults. I don't think that accounts even
for children who identify as transgender, which
I think children and people in their early 20s
are currently the largest cohort. of the transgender
community. I mean like on Instagram. At the time,
it seemed like a very niche community. These
groups on Instagram, how big are these groups
that you were tapping into? Some of them were
larger than others. Some of them were probably
like a few tens of thousands of kids. Some of
them were more like just a few dozen or a few
hundred. And I personally tend to lean more towards
those smaller groups of people because they were
easier to interact with. And I didn't care much
for influencers or celebrities at the time. I
wasn't being influenced by transgender celebrities.
It was these groups of normal kids who were just
everyday people who I could relate to. So at
what point did you become like a poster child?
Did you become like, did they... put you out
there as somebody to really follow and watch?
Do you become an influencer of sorts along the
way? Not exactly. I mean, I had a pretty small
presence on social media at the time. I think
before I started doing what I'm doing today,
my largest follower count was maybe like 1 ,000
or 2 ,000. And I would say that... maybe that
was a little bit more so the case in real life
actually as i started to progress through the
process of socially transitioning um i was i
hate to say it like this but almost a trailblazer
amongst my friends for many of them like i was
the only transgender person who they had they
had known at the time we were living in a small
town and it was something that people just didn't
really talk about so it was kind of a shock actually
when i started to to my to my friends and the
people around me um when I started to go through
this process and I started to change pretty much
visibly in every way. I told my mom, well, first
I had told a few friends from school and then
eventually one of my older sisters until I had
told my mom and dad about these feelings about
a month before my 13th birthday. And while they
wanted to, well, the reaction between my friends
and family was very different. My friends at
school, actually, they had their wits about them
and they were like, no, this is, this is, we
don't believe that you're a boy and we're not
going to act like you're a boy. And they were
actually the first few people to push back against
this. But it wasn't in a, it wasn't in a way
that exactly showed concern for me personally.
It was more so like, we're going to pick on you
because you're acting differently, which. I think,
unfortunately, when you're in middle school,
that's kind of the expected attitude when you
do anything different. And I don't exactly blame
them for acting as a bunch of 11-, 12-, 13 -year
-olds do. But my mom and dad, they were really
not sure exactly what they should do. It was
something that they'd heard about the news, they'd
heard celebrities doing it before, but this is
not something they ever... thought they would
hear from their own child. And while they wanted
to help me feel comfortable with myself, they
wanted to help me figure out what was going on
exactly, they never once believed that I actually
was a young man. So they pushed back on it a
little bit even. They challenged me, especially
when I started talking about the medical process
of things. They told me, like, no, we want you,
we want this to wait. We don't want to be responsible
for this. We don't want you to be going down
a path of permanent physical changes when you're
still very much a kid. And I think my mom and
dad had the right idea in mind. And when it came
to the world outside of our family, I didn't
tell my school. I didn't really tell anybody
at school other than my close circle of friends
about my feelings or about what I was going through,
not even my teachers. So they had no idea that
I was actually transitioning until in the middle
of eighth grade, I started to... actually start
taking the hormones and going on the procedures
and it was very it was very confusing for them
so this was in california right yes is that uh
part of the story as well that maybe in california
the the rules and regulations are a little bit
different and parents don't need to be involved
with the kids transition and like is that sort
of sort of part of the story yeah california
is unfortunately as much as i love my state one
of the They've done one of the worst jobs handling
this issue. I mean, we have, as of now, over
half the United States has put some measure in
place to prevent kids from being able to access
these treatments and be medically abused. But
unfortunately, we're going in the opposite direction.
We're facilitating this. We're allowing children
to run away from their families. even from other
states, even ignoring the custody laws of other
states to become a sanctuary state of sorts where
pretty much any child in the U .S. can come to
us and go down this dangerous medical and lifestyle
route. Wow. And there are several laws in place
that I think played a... a really dangerous role
in my own story. They completely, by California
law, insurance companies, private and public,
have to cover, have to completely cover every
single one of these treatments. So it incentivizes
patients to go through it because not only is
it touted as a lifesaving cure for gender -confused
children, it's also pretty much completely free.
It seems like a no -brainer for these kids. Transgenderism
is included in our anti -conversion therapy law.
So anything other than therapists or medical
professionals mindlessly affirming these patients
and their feelings, anything other than telling
them, yes, you are transgender, yes, you are
the opposite sex, and we are going to facilitate
a medical transition for you. can be considered
conversion therapy. And a therapist or a medical
professional can lose their license if they try
to do the right thing and question it. And then
you had therapy, and your parents were not involved,
were not allowed to be involved in that as well?
No, no. So that's also another part of that.
In California, minors, I think, starting at the
age of 12, are considered to be... emancipated
when it comes to their, when it comes to mental
health care. So their mental health records are,
I don't think they're accessible by the parent
without like explicit consent given by the child.
And they're also not required to be even in the
room during these appointments, unless again,
the child gives their consent. But that means
that in situations like mine, parents aren't
really empowered to actually help their children
if they are in psychiatric distress and that
was certainly the case for my mom and dad they
had no idea what was going on during these appointments
they started sending me to therapy after i told
them after i came out to them as transgender
because they wanted to they wanted to figure
out what exactly was mentally going on for me
where these feelings were coming from whether
they came from a deeper place potentially of
trauma um or some other issue. But in order for
a child to truly be helped, their parents have
to be in the picture. But they were not followed
up with about what was being discussed during
the appointments. They weren't told about what
I was going to be, what the process would even
look like for me. So they started to understandably
get very frustrated. They decided that they were
going to speak. to the psychologists themselves
and start pushing back on them a little bit,
start asking, like, what's going on with her?
Why does she feel this way? Why does she feel
the need to go down this medical pipeline? Why
can't we wait until she's an adult? Exactly.
And what are the odds that she's going to regret
this, which are all very sensible questions,
all questions that any parent who is going through
this with their child should be asking medical
professionals. But... The doctors were not doing
their job. They were very deceptive. They lied
to my mom and dad. They lied to me that I was
a boy. And they told me that we're going to have
your mom and dad go along with this. And what
they told my mom and dad was that this was a
quality, this was a trait about myself that was
innate. I couldn't control it. that me being
transgender was not a phase, that children understand
their gender identity from a very young age.
And they started to go even deeper, talking about
the suicide statistics. There is a commonly misrepresented
suicide statistic. in the transgender community
of about 41%. And I think that's in reference
to suicide, either suicide attempts or people
experiencing feelings of suicidality and not
completed suicides. And these are adult patients
that this survey was pulling. And they were using
it to convince my mom and dad, hey, this is,
if you don't allow your child to go through this,
the longer that she goes without this treatment.
the more likely it will be that she ends up taking
her own life. And they didn't just say this once.
They repeated this lie to my mom and dad at every
step of the way. So my mom and dad not being
given any other choice, being led to believe
that my life would literally be on the line if
they said no, they said yes. Because they wanted
me to be okay. They hated the thought of their
daughter taking her own life. Did you ever have
any thoughts about suicidal ideation? Not at
the time. I was a perfectly healthy young woman.
No, I was a little girl. I was barely 12 going
on 13. And I wasn't thinking about taking my
own life at all. I was... I was a little depressed
at the time. I didn't really have any friends
at school. And I was struggling to understand
who I was and orient myself in the world around
me. But I wanted to have a better life. I didn't
want to die. Until I had started all of these
treatments. Normal young person confusion as
they grow up and go through adolescence. Right.
And there were some things in my life that...
went a little bit deeper than that. I mean, I
had been sexually assaulted by a classmate. I
had some sexual trauma. I had been exposed to
things, some certain things, just far too early
in my life. But ultimately, the gist of what
I was experiencing was distress that everybody
goes through as they grow up. And yet, unlike
other children, I wasn't given the chance by
my doctors to just experience So fast forward,
you changed your mind and you wanted to undo
everything. At that point, were you a known figure?
Were you a notable figure? At what point did
you become known? I mean, that wasn't until much
later after I had detransitioned. I mean, my
life was completely different after I began transitioning.
And once I was out of my eighth grade year and
I was moving into my freshman year of high school,
I looked and sounded like pretty much any other
young man my age. And I actually had a deeper
voice than a lot of my male classmates, funnily
enough. So I passed as a member of the opposite
sex, so to speak. And so I went through most
of my high school years. with people knowing
me as a young man named Leo. And because I was
at a new school, most people didn't actually
know that I was really a girl. And it was, it
was kind of a, it was a bizarre experience in
a lot of ways, but I also, it was very interesting.
And sometimes it was kind of fun getting to live
in that male role and learn a little bit more
about the opposite sex and take up, take upon
that role. But it also was very difficult at
times. I mean, the grass is always greener on
the other side. I had wished from a very young
age that I was a boy and that I didn't have to
deal with some of the trials and tribulations
of being a girl growing up into a young woman.
But really, especially in the world that we live
in today, we live in a culture that really devalues
young men and ignores the struggles that they
experience. I got to see my own male friends
going through their own struggles and largely
being ignored because they were men and they
just didn't really matter to the world around
them and they didn't really have a place where
they could, an outlet where they could get those
feelings out. And I experienced that myself as
well. And psychologically, I mean, the testosterone
was not only changing me physically in my appearance,
in my voice, and in my body, but also affecting
the way that I behaved and thought. And it made
it a lot harder for me to process my emotions.
I was prone to bouts of anger, long spirals of
depression, and sometimes I would have psychiatric
episodes. And even though it was so clear that
it was the treatment and the lifestyle that I
was living that was leading me down the spiral,
and yet none of my doctors really questioned
along the way whether they were doing the right
thing or not. And it led me further down the
path until I had surgery at 15 years old. I hadn't
even had a driver's course yet. I was too young
to drive a car, and yet I was allowed to undergo
this permanent removal of a completely healthy
part of my body. That was incredibly damaging,
and ultimately that was the catalyst to me realizing
that this was the wrong choice. that this was
something that was destroying me in every single
way, psychologically, physically, with my health.
And when I was 16, I had this epiphany that I
had aspirations to become a mother, that I wanted
to become a wife, that I wanted to actually live
in a very feminine role. But I worried that I
never would be enough. And my identity issues
didn't come from my body, didn't come from the
way that I was born. It wasn't some sort of genetic
anomaly or alternative brain pattern that I had
that was making me this way. It was just me struggling
socially. And that was okay. I didn't have to
change these parts of myself in order to become
happy with myself. And by trying to do so, I...
was losing parts of myself as an adult woman,
first my breast and potentially my fertility
down the line. And I knew then I couldn't keep
doing this. I had to give it up, and I had to
find a new life after transition. So I know your
parents are involved in your journey, and I'm
sure people ask you all the time, where were
your parents in all this? Where were your parents
in all this? Who's taking you to these appointments?
Who took you to the surgery the morning of? Did
they go along with it? Because if they didn't,
it would be even worse. What was that all about?
Well, it was my mom and dad. Yeah, they were
the ones who were taking me to this. And it was
a huge dilemma for them. We've had a lot of deep,
intimate conversations about this after the fact.
And they've told me they never saw me as their
son. They never believed that I was transgender.
They never believed that I was a boy in any way.
But they had my life threatened by the doctors
so many times. And to hear that over and over
and over again, they were just, they were deeply
afraid for me. I mean, raising me already was
a struggle because I had some birth defects,
I had some health issues, I had a learning disability,
so I was a little bit different and a lot more
difficult. And to have just another thing thrown
at them again with all this, by our doctors,
they were scrambling to find an answer and they
were trying to do what was right for me. But
they also knew deep down in their hearts, I think
that all of us were being led astray. And so
when it came time for me to detransition, when
I came to them talking about my regret and tears,
there was a lot of guilt that they were experiencing.
And they felt like for years they blamed themselves
for this. And I think to an extent, every parent
has a bit of culpability. when their child experiences
deep psychiatric issues like gender dysphoria.
But it's not their fault, and it certainly wasn't
the fault of my mom and dad. And they, throughout
the process, our relationship was kind of a big
struggle. We got closer for a little bit in the
early stages of my transition, as I seemed to
get better, at least superficially. And then
as reality started to hit me down, like further
down the line, as I started to, as my physical
and mental health started to tank, I started
to shut myself off from everybody in my life,
including my own mom and dad. We'd always get
into fights. We just kept, there was this growing
rift between us until I came to them saying,
like, I can't keep doing this anymore. And as
difficult as that initially was, as we were scrambling
to figure out, like, what do we do? Like, we've
lost, like, she's basically lost, like, her entire
adolescence to this. They also started to see
a bit of resilience in me as I was fighting for
my life to find a new normal. As I started to
reorient myself again, as I started to become
more feminine, as the light started to return
to my eyes, they were so grateful that I... was
able to come back from this and Especially that
we were able to I was able to use my story our
story really as a family to help other families
in need and I don't think they give themselves
enough credit for that because I if I didn't
have them If I didn't have my family if I didn't
have my mom and dad during this time During that
very difficult period in my life. I don't know
where I would be today So was it a some sort
of like a psychedelic journey or something that
opened your eyes today if I recall correctly?
Um, I Mean there were a lot of things that eventually
led to me realizing that my transition was mistake.
Um, I Did during my during the post -surgery
period experiment a little bit with substances
because I was self -medicating. I was struggling
so much to deal with the weight that was on my
shoulders from being on the drugs, from having
just lost my breasts. And unfortunately, I was
surrounded by a lot of bad influences and I turned
to the use of psychedelic, psychoactive substances.
um and recreationally for 15s yes um yes recreationally
and not well i mean a 15 year old getting their
hands on on street drugs is not therapeutic at
all but i it was it was a very it was obviously
a very dangerous thing for me to do but i think
that there was and i'm not trying to encourage
the use of these substances at all but there
was some value in that I think it did open up
my mind a little bit to realizing that, I mean,
at one point it hit me that I was living a lie,
that I was being dishonest with myself, that
I was living a life that was focused on like
pleasure and gratification rather than being,
and that was destroying me. It was destroying
the lives of the people around me. But it didn't
really... I couldn't really come to a conclusion
from that until... It was going to take a little
bit of time for me to process what that really
meant. And the final nail in the coffin to my
transition was me taking a class in psychology,
actually, and learning mostly about... children's
formative years and how children from infancy
up until 18 years old develop and how things
like parenting styles and attachment play a role
in that. And it was when I realized that my identity,
my struggles with my identity didn't come from
my gender, but instead from a broken attachment
style that I chose to stop transitioning. Amazing.
Wow. So let's talk about cancellation. So along
the way, even during the transition and detransitioning,
you gained and lost people along the way. Did
you ever lose anybody super important in your
life? Like how hurtful was it? Maybe you could
share a story of a heartbreak along the way,
whether it's before or after. I went through
a lot of personal loss during the first, especially
the first year of my detransition. I lost the
support of my doctors. When I came back to them,
when I came back to the same people who had put
me on this course of treatment in the first place,
they no longer had an answer for me. And part
of that is the fact that there's no acknowledgement
of detransition or the people who experienced
it. in the medical community at all there's no
there's no standards of care written for those
of us who choose to stop so there's no framework
for doctors to really work off of with patients
like me but also they had it was like this they
had this attitude of you're not our problem anymore
We don't know what to do with you, and we don't
want to face our mistake. So we're not going
to help you, even with basic things. I was asking
for a regular blood test. I was asking for a
chart of where my sex hormone level should be
at for a woman. I was asking for them to do simple
changes, like just changing my sex marker and
my name back to my birth name in my records.
I still get letters from Kaiser. addressing me
as a young man, addressing me by the name Leo,
even though I had begged multiple doctors, I
had begged even my personal physician to do this
for me. And it was just like a total pick in
the stomach. It was like, I haven't seen a doctor
in like four years because I'm still so afraid
that I'm just not going to be heard. I have medical
trauma. Conversion is covered in California,
but not deconversion. They didn't think at all.
Right. There are no laws and there's no medical,
there's no standards of care in place that even
mention the word detransition, even though it's
such an obvious likely outcome, especially for
the kids who go through it. And in my personal
relationships, the moment that I announced that
I was detransitioning, the majority of the transgender
community and even my longtime transgender friends
had turned on me. And they would, at best, they
would go silent on me. They would block me. They
would stop associating with me quietly. At worst,
they would actively go out of their way to blame
me for everything that happened. They would say,
this is all your fault. You should have known
better. It didn't matter that you were a 13 -year
-old girl. You were just being stupid. And obviously
you weren't really transgender. You were taking
away treatment from people who really would have
deserved it. You didn't deserve to have a loving
family. You didn't deserve to have doctors who
would support you through this. You're garbage
to us. You're a traitor. And you should be ashamed
of yourself. Incredibly vicious, yes. People
would even say, like, I should take my own life.
And I still get that today. And it hurts so much
because these were people who I once loved. People
who I once looked up to, people who once treated
me like I was a role model, a hero, they had
celebrated me the further that I went in. And
yet the moment that I stopped, they let their
own personal insecurities, they let their own
feelings of fear of regretting their own transition
get in the way and start attacking me. And one
of those people was my best friend since fifth
grade. I end up losing her down the line, too.
At first, like, she feigned support. She would
say things like, oh, I'm so glad you found yourself.
Even then, I could tell, like, she wasn't feeling
too hot about it. I haven't heard from her in
three or four years, and unfortunately, I...
She's somebody who I worry about a lot, and I
think about her, and I pray for her every day
because I... Even our friends have told me, she's
going down the route that you did. When we can
tell that things are going to end up the same
for her or worse if she doesn't turn back now.
She's on the transition journey herself? Yes,
she's been on the drugs too. She started testosterone
and I'm afraid every day that she is going to
repeat my same mistakes and go into surgery.
I've lost so many people who I care about to
this, and many of them willingly chose to cut
me off after I decided that I wasn't going to
live this way anymore. And even some of that
came from friends outside of the transgender
community, people at school. I detransitioned
just before my senior year of high school, which
was just incredibly rough for so many different
reasons. Like, medically, it was just hell, and
I was so sickly. especially without the guidance
of my doctors. But I also was struggling. I needed
people. At a time when I needed people, when
I needed my peers, when I needed my friends the
most, most of them had just completely dipped,
and they were nowhere to be found. Many of them
were treating me the same as the transgender
community was. Many of them were telling me,
like, this is your fault. Like, you need to own
up. This is your responsibility, and you should
have known better. And a lot of them also were
just, like, they were... They let politics get
in the way of our relationship. A lot of my friends
throughout most of my high school career were
fairly left -leaning, some more so than others.
And as they saw me start to question some of
the dogma, not only around transition, but also
a lot of modern leftism in general, they took
it personally. They took deep offense to it and
eventually... they decided we're not going to
be friends with you anymore. You can figure your
own stuff out, and we're not going to have anything
to do with it. I'm all about tolerance and acceptance,
and people have a right to be happy, and everybody's
on their own journey, and that we should have
just compassion and acceptance for everybody.
That's where I stand, and I wish we had more
of that. As a young... Especially from the people
who once claimed to be very compassionate and
accepting. Exactly. They're nowhere to be found
when people like me come out of the waterworks
and talk about our own stories of being harmed
by their very ideology. There's just no forgiveness
for any of us. And unfortunately, what I experienced
socially during the initial few phases of my
detransition is pretty much universal amongst...
Pretty much every detransitioner has experienced
this to some extent within the transgender community,
some of them even within their own family systems
or with their friends. So, I mean, did you or
did you feel like during your detransition feel
lonely? Or did you still have a lot of close
relationships? And you were lonely before, before
you even started this entire journey. Is it a
different kind of feeling or is it more of the
same? I would almost say that I was back at square
one, except it was so much worse. It was like
the entire framework of my life up until that
point was completely shattered. My identity for
three years out of my life was just completely
thrown out the window. And now this community
that once supported me through it and my own
friends who I had made at school were just gone.
It was the absolute worst period of my life.
And it's ironic that my doctors told my mom and
dad, that not transitioning me was likely to
lead to my suicide because the transition regret
brought me closer to death than living normally
and healthily ever has. I was very close to taking
my own life during this point in time because
I thought that there was nothing left for me.
I thought that I wasn't even going to make it
to 18 years old. I didn't think that I was ever
going to live to adulthood or that if I did,
that it would be enjoyable. And so it was...
It was rock bottom for me, really. No 16-, 17-,
18 -year -old should ever have to go through
what I did. You felt super low at some point,
I guess after your breasts were removed sometime
thereafter, and you're like, oh, my God, what
do I do now? It was a living nightmare. It really
was. And I thought, like, I'm, especially with
the loss of my breasts, I felt like a monster.
I felt like I ripped something away from my own
future children that I felt like I was just horrible
for taking away that option from my children
of being able to nourish them with what God gave
me. And also, I hadn't even had a first kiss
yet by that point in time. And yet I had this
very integral part of female sexuality ripped
away from me forever. And for years I thought,
I'm going to be... there's no way that I'm ever
going to be lovable. Unfortunately, that turned
out that it turned out not to be true. Oh, but
did you feel, I imagine shame must have been
sort of a prevailing emotion. Like what have
I done? Oh my gosh. Self -imposed. A lot of,
yes, there was a lot of shame around the way
that I looked, around the way that I sounded,
around the choices that I had made as a consequence
of all that. There was a lot of guilt about how
this way of life was affecting not just me, but
the people around me, and especially the pain
that my mom and dad were going through. It became
more and more clear to me as I got older. Yeah,
it wasn't just about you. You were distributing
this sort of energy into the universe as well,
especially to your parents and your family. So
when things got really bad, how did you keep
your head on straight? What happened? How did
you... How did you shift? I had a lot of good
people around me. My mom and dad were there for
me. They would give me comfort and reassurance,
even in little ways, like the little things that
they would do for me, just like making me breakfast
and talking to me about it and talking through
it. It meant so much to me, and it still means
so much to me. But I also... Once again, I had
turned to the internet because I didn't really
have any other place to go with no friends at
school. And eventually I had dropped out my senior
year because of this, because I didn't really
have, I had no friends. I was like, my school
performance was failing because I was just in
so much distress. But this time it was different.
I wondered if there was a word for what I was
going through. I put two and two together. I
thought, well, if I went through a transition
and I stopped, it must be a detransition, right?
So I googled the word and it turned out this
is a real word. And there's thousands of results.
And wait a minute. There is a community of people
on the internet who are just like me. But actually,
it's not the superficial. Like, it turned out
that they didn't really have the superficiality
of the transgender community. These were people
who were talking about real things, really getting
down to the real issues of where these feelings
first came from and also addressing the aftermath
of the medical abuse that we'd all been through.
All these people who I was speaking to at the
time were adult men and women who had been through
the process as adults and were further along
in the process of stopping their transition.
So they gave me kind of a marker for what I could
do in order to heal from all this psychologically,
spiritually, and physically. But they also gave
me hope that there was a future for me. It felt
like something was missing, though, still. This
is a group of people who I deeply cared for.
And the conversation around these matters in
the media was really starting to rapidly shift.
And yet, there wasn't really anybody that was
nearly as young as I was in this community or
being involved in the conversation. And it became
more and more clear to me, I'm in the perfect
position. to cause a major shift in this. I'm
young. At the time, I was still 17. I was still
a child. And I'd also been through it at a very
early age, much earlier than these other people
who were publicly speaking out were. And I thought,
what better opportunity than to use the pain
that me and my family went through? to help not
only this community of other people, but to help
the public understand this issue at large, what
is happening in our communities, what's happening
to our families and the institutional corruption
that's happening in our healthcare system. I
can use this opportunity to create a better world.
Amazing. You called it a mistake earlier, but...
I don't believe in mistakes. I think everything
is, there's a divine purpose for it, reason for
everything. I think that God allowed me to go
through this, not because he wanted me to suffer,
not because he thought that I deserved it, but
because he knew that I could get through it.
He could handle it. And he knew that I could
use it to help others in need. And correct me
if I'm wrong, but it sounds like your parents.
And unwavering love and support the entire distance.
All of it. Absolutely. Absolutely. My mom and
dad, they love me to bits. They've always loved
me. They have always wanted the best for me.
And they're very supportive and very, very proud
of me now. You know, your story is a little bit
different from most others that are on the show
because most of the people on the show... They
were canceled unfairly with mistruths and stuff
like that. And almost all of them are like, you
have to fight, fight, fight. Yours is a little
bit different. You might have been anointed because
you could be a facilitator of change. And God
led you on this journey so that you can actually
make change in the world. And so at what point
did you become, you thrust out there, you realize
this. And then some opportunity happened for
you to publicly speak, or what did that look
like? I chose to speak out, actually. I decided,
I mean, I'd been thinking about it from pretty
early on in the detransition process, but I knew,
like, if I want to go out to the public and speak
about this very intimate thing, especially in
potentially very contentious, in a very contentious
political environment. I have to get myself together
first. I have to heal a little bit before I'm
ready to do that. And once the time came, it
was about, I think, spring of 2022 that I made,
I decided to make an account on X back when it
was still called Twitter, back before the bird
got freed out of the cage and it became a free
speech platform. So I think... I actually had
been temporarily banned a few times in the pre
-Musk Twitter administration, but I decided I'm
just going to throw everything out there. Right
now, I don't really have much to lose. I'm just
out of high school, and I'm going to tell my
story to the world. And it started with just
a few posts on Twitter, and then all of a sudden,
almost overnight, thousands of followers just
flooding in. J .K. Rowling was one of the first
ones that was like, okay, so I had this like
huge children's book author following me. What
is going on? And then media started reaching
out to me. I started having reporters asking
like, can we talk to you? Can we call you about
your story so I can cover it? And eventually
I got asked to start speaking on legislation
across the country. to help protect children.
And I had never thought before at all about doing
public speaking of any sort because I was like
the shy kid in school. I was quiet. I spent a
lot of my time when I wasn't with my friends
or with people I liked at school just drawing
or playing video games in my off time. So it
was quite the jump. to be doing all that. And
my mom and dad, of course, were very uneasy about
it because I was a 17 -year -old girl and I had
never really been out in the world, especially
without them before. And at first they were like,
no, we are not going to send you into that kind
of environment. We are not going to have you
be that far away from us. And we're not comfortable
with that. And it took a bit of convincing, but
I'm so grateful. That they ended up saying yes,
because it ended up being a very transformative
journey for me personally. And also like it's
cause when, because of the fact that they said
yes to me doing this, there's been a lot of change
in our culture in regards to this issue and so
much progress that's been made in just a matter
of a few years. Because of you. Again, very grateful
to them. You can take some pride in that. Yeah,
I mean, of course, it's the voices like mine
of men and women who have been personally harmed
in some way, either directly by the procedures
or the parents or the families that have been
ripped apart by this. But also, I really owe
it to my mom and dad for letting me do this.
So where do you stand now on the level of peace
in your heart? Are you fully healed? I mean,
I think the healing journey is going to be years
long, maybe decades long, or even lifelong. And
there are days I have where it's harder than
others. There are days I have when the progress
regresses, when I have to cry, when I have to
be upset in order to process everything. But
I'm so much further along then. I'm so much further
along now than I was then, especially in those
days when I was running away from reality and
when I was living a lie, because that's exactly
what transgenderism comes down to. It is one
big lie. There is no way that people can change
their sex. It doesn't matter what drugs, it doesn't
matter what surgeries, it doesn't matter what
body parts you take on or you take off of or
put on a person. You are never going to change
something that is determined at conception by
God. And in trying to do so, you're going to
cause great destruction in your own life and
the lives of people around you. It's best to
orient yourself in reality and to deal with the
heart of these issues, where they really stem
from, because these people, where their suffering
is coming from. It's not some genetic anomaly.
It's not their brains or some part of them somehow
being of the opposite sex. These are people who
are struggling because they have deep -seated
trauma. Many of them have broken relationships
with their families. Many of them have been hurt.
at some point in their childhood in many different
ways and many of them are people who have learning
disabilities and they're so naturally growing
up and figuring out figuring themselves out and
and their identity is going to be much more difficult
and what these people deserve what these children
like little girl who i once was deserve is to
be told the way that you were made was not a
mistake Because you were made in God's image
and he does not mistakes. You are beautiful the
way that you are. You are unique. And we're going
to help you through this. That's ultimately what,
that's why I give my testimony. Because I think
that transgender people, that people struggling
with this part of their identity deserve so much
better than what children like me were given.
I want to ensure a better world that my children
will grow up in one day. Are people out there
now that think that Chloe Cole is dangerous?
There's a few people. There are a few people
who think that this 5 '3", 120 -pound young woman
speaking out about reality is... is a danger
and a menace to society. And, I mean, the moment
that I... It's clear that, I mean, they saw me
as a threat the moment that I detranished and
how they react to me and how they still react
to me to this day. And where that really comes
from, I mean, especially for the transgender
people, it comes from a place of... insecurity
around their own transgender status. Stories
like mine shed light on the fact that this, again,
is a complete scam. This is something that causes
long -term damage, and there's no real basis
to it. And so it makes them face the uncomfortable
question of, well, so why am I doing this? What's
the difference between me and somebody who regrets
their transition? Is it really just feelings?
Obviously, it can't just be that. And this is
something that has a lot of money tied to it,
especially with the surgeries. And there are
a lot of interest groups that have made great
use of this ideology. And the left... has made
this into a human rights issue. And so when there's
so many people out there being convinced that
the lives of transgender people are at stake,
that children are having life -saving care threatened,
I mean, what wouldn't they do? They'd think that
people like me are a monster if... They would
think that people like me are a monster for trying
to take this away. Yeah. You know, thank you
for sharing your story. Chloe, it's like a delight
to meet you. And I can see why you've been thrust
to the center of this topic because you're extraordinarily
bright and articulate. And your story, as it
continues to evolve, I'm sure we're going to
hear even more from you in the coming years and
decades. And I thank you for coming on the show
and being so vulnerable and sharing everything
you've got. And good luck with your journey as
your life unfolds. Thank you so much. Thank you
for having me on the show and for giving me the
space to talk about this issue in my own personal
experience. You got it. Thank you so much.