WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.759 Sometimes I would have psychiatric episodes and 00:00:02.759 --> 00:00:06.919 it led me further down the path until I had surgery 00:00:06.919 --> 00:00:09.480 at 15 years old. I hadn't even had like a driver's 00:00:09.480 --> 00:00:11.560 course yet. Like I was too young to drive a car 00:00:11.560 --> 00:00:14.759 and yet I was allowed to undergo this permanent 00:00:14.759 --> 00:00:17.160 removal of a completely healthy part of my body. 00:00:17.260 --> 00:00:20.059 That was incredibly damaging and ultimately that 00:00:20.059 --> 00:00:23.620 was the catalyst to me realizing that this was 00:00:23.620 --> 00:00:29.710 the wrong choice. What an amazing guest we had 00:00:29.710 --> 00:00:32.969 today, Chloe Cole, who transitioned at a very, 00:00:33.009 --> 00:00:35.689 very early age and then de -transitioned. And 00:00:35.689 --> 00:00:38.950 as a result, she got ostracized. I don't know, 00:00:38.969 --> 00:00:42.329 all kinds of hell you've been through where they 00:00:42.329 --> 00:00:46.289 tried to cancel you, made you feel bad. And today 00:00:46.289 --> 00:00:48.090 you're here to share your journey with us about 00:00:48.090 --> 00:00:49.670 your own cancellation. Thank you for joining 00:00:49.670 --> 00:00:51.869 us today. Really appreciate having you. Thank 00:00:51.869 --> 00:00:54.229 you for having me. Yeah. You know, I don't know 00:00:54.229 --> 00:00:56.770 if you know about this. My wife and I run a school. 00:00:57.479 --> 00:00:59.700 And it goes from Centner Academy. It's in Miami. 00:00:59.859 --> 00:01:05.120 And we also have two little kids. And this concept 00:01:05.120 --> 00:01:08.200 of devices, using the cell phones, is something 00:01:08.200 --> 00:01:10.620 that we really try to lock down, but not a lot 00:01:10.620 --> 00:01:13.739 of families do. And from watching interviews 00:01:13.739 --> 00:01:16.519 that you've done, I think maybe the beginning 00:01:16.519 --> 00:01:20.379 of your journey, if you will, started with unfettered 00:01:20.379 --> 00:01:23.340 access to your cell phone or a computer. Is that 00:01:23.340 --> 00:01:26.250 sort of what happened? Yes, that was definitely 00:01:26.250 --> 00:01:29.109 a big part of it. I wouldn't have known about 00:01:29.109 --> 00:01:31.609 these destructive ideologies such as transgenderism 00:01:31.609 --> 00:01:34.650 were it not for my early access to the internet. 00:01:34.870 --> 00:01:37.230 You know, Leila, we talk on the show a lot about 00:01:37.230 --> 00:01:39.129 how your online reputation can be used against 00:01:39.129 --> 00:01:41.049 you, but what if you could take back control? 00:01:42.490 --> 00:01:46.969 Guess what? What? Erase .com does exactly that. 00:01:47.090 --> 00:01:49.569 Are you kidding me? They're an online reputation 00:01:49.569 --> 00:01:52.849 management company that is fantastic. They allow 00:01:52.849 --> 00:01:56.549 you or you to take back the power and not let 00:01:56.549 --> 00:01:59.689 the digital world decide what is said about you. 00:01:59.790 --> 00:02:02.409 You know, you bring up a good point. Don't let 00:02:02.409 --> 00:02:04.810 your online past define your future. These folks, 00:02:04.930 --> 00:02:06.989 they should call the experts at Erase .com because 00:02:06.989 --> 00:02:09.449 they can help. Like they helped us? They sure 00:02:09.449 --> 00:02:12.719 did. And because you listen to Erase, if you 00:02:12.719 --> 00:02:16.020 just type in the promo code ERASED10, you will 00:02:16.020 --> 00:02:18.960 receive 10 % off these amazing services that 00:02:18.960 --> 00:02:21.219 help you take back your power. That's a great 00:02:21.219 --> 00:02:24.159 deal. Reference promo code ERASED10. You can 00:02:24.159 --> 00:02:26.639 get a 10 % discount off their services. I like 00:02:26.639 --> 00:02:31.280 it. Do it now. Do it now. And without it being... 00:02:31.419 --> 00:02:33.979 so unrestricted and i absolutely agree with you 00:02:33.979 --> 00:02:36.439 that a lot of families i think that there is 00:02:36.439 --> 00:02:39.180 a way to introduce technology to children in 00:02:39.180 --> 00:02:42.060 a very gradual and safe way but not in the way 00:02:42.060 --> 00:02:43.840 that a lot of parents are just like giving their 00:02:43.840 --> 00:02:45.560 their children phones when they're still in elementary 00:02:45.560 --> 00:02:48.560 school and letting them access whatever they 00:02:48.560 --> 00:02:50.259 want without any monitoring or any filtering 00:02:50.259 --> 00:02:53.319 i can't even imagine what it's like to be a little 00:02:53.319 --> 00:02:57.050 kid to see some of this stuff That's on an unlocked 00:02:57.050 --> 00:02:59.270 phone. I mean, back in the day, I'm old enough, 00:02:59.389 --> 00:03:01.750 if I wanted to see stuff like that, I'd have 00:03:01.750 --> 00:03:03.750 to really go out of my way to go to a magazine 00:03:03.750 --> 00:03:07.830 shop and it'd be covered in plastic wrap. And 00:03:07.830 --> 00:03:10.889 it's just like, now a phone is unlocked. You 00:03:10.889 --> 00:03:13.250 can just go straight to some of those horrifying 00:03:13.250 --> 00:03:16.490 visual imagery, right? That just can't be good 00:03:16.490 --> 00:03:20.879 for a little brain. I mean... The Internet really 00:03:20.879 --> 00:03:24.439 is a massive information highway with all of 00:03:24.439 --> 00:03:26.800 what humanity has to offer. A lot of it is good. 00:03:26.860 --> 00:03:29.819 A lot of it is good information. But also a lot 00:03:29.819 --> 00:03:35.860 of it is unhelpful at best or just for children, 00:03:36.139 --> 00:03:38.879 developmentally harmful at the absolute worst. 00:03:39.180 --> 00:03:46.439 And a lot of the traffic on the Internet is from 00:03:46.439 --> 00:03:50.719 websites that have pornography on them. And obviously 00:03:50.719 --> 00:03:52.379 for children, that is incredibly inappropriate, 00:03:52.719 --> 00:03:55.400 but it's also one of the easiest things that 00:03:55.400 --> 00:03:58.460 you could access on the internet. And I think 00:03:58.460 --> 00:04:00.680 the average age of exposure now is roughly between 00:04:00.680 --> 00:04:07.699 the ages of 10 to 12 years old, which is, it's 00:04:07.699 --> 00:04:12.919 just unbelievable. I mean, for me, I was exposed 00:04:12.919 --> 00:04:15.340 pretty young. I started learning about these 00:04:15.340 --> 00:04:17.660 things when I was still in my elementary school 00:04:17.660 --> 00:04:20.300 years, and my first actual exposure to pornography 00:04:20.300 --> 00:04:24.319 and seeing hardcore pornography on a screen was 00:04:24.319 --> 00:04:26.560 not on a cell phone, but actually on a school 00:04:26.560 --> 00:04:29.519 device that was completely unmonitored. That's 00:04:29.519 --> 00:04:34.740 crazy. Did they fix that vulnerability since 00:04:34.740 --> 00:04:39.279 then? They did end up starting to use... um filters 00:04:39.279 --> 00:04:41.800 on these school devices but that was only about 00:04:41.800 --> 00:04:43.959 like five to six years into them rolling them 00:04:43.959 --> 00:04:45.560 out in my school district and a lot of school 00:04:45.560 --> 00:04:48.360 districts are still um not doing that on their 00:04:48.360 --> 00:04:49.839 on the devices that they're that they're giving 00:04:49.839 --> 00:04:53.339 to these kids i know we've had our own uh issues 00:04:53.339 --> 00:04:57.459 with our own school with a couple of uh opportunities 00:04:57.459 --> 00:05:00.279 where kids were able to go to whatever they wanted 00:05:00.279 --> 00:05:03.240 on on the devices and and it was just like really 00:05:03.240 --> 00:05:06.160 bad a lot of a lot of parents were like There 00:05:06.160 --> 00:05:08.519 was an outcry of the parents. What is the right 00:05:08.519 --> 00:05:10.199 amount? What is the right access that you give 00:05:10.199 --> 00:05:12.139 a little kid? I'm just curious what your thoughts 00:05:12.139 --> 00:05:16.660 are. I think that ideally it's something that 00:05:16.660 --> 00:05:20.879 you should wait until they're in the later stage 00:05:20.879 --> 00:05:23.220 of their development, like maybe early, mid, 00:05:23.339 --> 00:05:25.980 or even late adolescence, to start introducing 00:05:25.980 --> 00:05:29.339 them to the Internet. And, of course, you should 00:05:29.339 --> 00:05:33.959 be monitoring everything. both while you're with 00:05:33.959 --> 00:05:36.060 them and from afar. You should have like a proctor 00:05:36.060 --> 00:05:37.839 service on their phone or whatever device they 00:05:37.839 --> 00:05:42.100 have and also personally teach them about how 00:05:42.100 --> 00:05:44.740 they should be using the internet as a tool for 00:05:44.740 --> 00:05:46.500 networking with people, a tool for staying in 00:05:46.500 --> 00:05:49.579 contact with friends and family and learning, 00:05:49.899 --> 00:05:53.240 but also the dangers that can be present on it. 00:05:53.339 --> 00:05:55.759 The bad actors can be on there who might want 00:05:55.759 --> 00:06:02.850 to prey on you or the fact that there is There 00:06:02.850 --> 00:06:09.230 are things that are not developmentally appropriate 00:06:09.230 --> 00:06:11.990 to access at one's age and the dangers of that. 00:06:12.170 --> 00:06:16.490 So take us back to the beginning of your journey 00:06:16.490 --> 00:06:19.250 of transitioning because a lot of people maybe 00:06:19.250 --> 00:06:22.250 don't know who you are. And just share with us 00:06:22.250 --> 00:06:26.740 a little bit of how that all started. So all 00:06:26.740 --> 00:06:30.019 of these issues of the internet and of children 00:06:30.019 --> 00:06:33.100 being exposed to inappropriate things are an 00:06:33.100 --> 00:06:35.879 integral part of my own personal testimony. I'm 00:06:35.879 --> 00:06:38.720 somebody who went through the process of a childhood 00:06:38.720 --> 00:06:41.959 medical and social gender transition from a female 00:06:41.959 --> 00:06:46.180 identity into a male lifestyle. And I came back 00:06:46.180 --> 00:06:48.680 from that all before I was even 18 years old. 00:06:48.759 --> 00:06:51.439 I was 12 when I started to call myself a boy. 00:06:51.759 --> 00:06:55.259 I was 13 when I was put, I was expedited onto. 00:06:55.439 --> 00:06:58.920 the medical process with Lupron as a puberty 00:06:58.920 --> 00:07:01.720 blocker, weekly injections of testosterone, and 00:07:01.720 --> 00:07:05.019 a surgery to remove my breasts before I de -transitioned 00:07:05.019 --> 00:07:10.639 at 16. And in my earlier years as a little girl, 00:07:10.699 --> 00:07:14.959 before I had believed that I was a boy, I mean, 00:07:14.980 --> 00:07:17.800 when I was really young, I was actually quite 00:07:17.800 --> 00:07:20.420 a feminine girl. I loved pink. I loved wearing 00:07:20.420 --> 00:07:23.740 bright colors. My dad often tells me, you know, 00:07:23.779 --> 00:07:25.839 when you were really little, you wouldn't even 00:07:25.839 --> 00:07:29.000 want to leave the house if you weren't wearing, 00:07:29.040 --> 00:07:33.279 like, a bright color or a cute dress. And I loved 00:07:33.279 --> 00:07:37.139 playing dress -up with my sisters. I loved when 00:07:37.139 --> 00:07:38.779 they put makeup on me and playing with dolls. 00:07:39.699 --> 00:07:43.980 But as I got older, I found that I just... tended 00:07:43.980 --> 00:07:46.379 to align a little bit more with the boys around 00:07:46.379 --> 00:07:48.839 me eventually, especially like my older brothers, 00:07:49.199 --> 00:07:52.439 my male friends at school. I started to take 00:07:52.439 --> 00:07:54.759 upon more stereotypically masculine interests, 00:07:55.000 --> 00:07:59.579 things like video games, exploring, being outside, 00:08:00.040 --> 00:08:04.459 and other parts of my personality started to 00:08:04.459 --> 00:08:06.779 shift with that. I started to cut my hair shorter. 00:08:06.879 --> 00:08:10.300 I started to wear more comfortable, more boyish 00:08:10.300 --> 00:08:14.230 clothing. I remember at the time that I started 00:08:14.230 --> 00:08:18.250 to hit puberty, I tried makeup, I tried purses 00:08:18.250 --> 00:08:20.350 and the things that the other girls around me 00:08:20.350 --> 00:08:23.370 were doing, and it just didn't feel right for 00:08:23.370 --> 00:08:25.689 me. But it wasn't something that I was particularly 00:08:25.689 --> 00:08:27.629 uncomfortable with either. I considered myself 00:08:27.629 --> 00:08:31.910 to be a tomboy. And I love that about myself 00:08:31.910 --> 00:08:34.210 because it felt like something that made me unique, 00:08:34.330 --> 00:08:36.629 that made me strong, that set me apart from the 00:08:36.629 --> 00:08:42.019 other kids my age. But eventually... As I started 00:08:42.019 --> 00:08:45.259 to go through the course of puberty and as all 00:08:45.259 --> 00:08:47.980 these changes in my life started to happen, not 00:08:47.980 --> 00:08:51.460 only socially, but also with my own body, with 00:08:51.460 --> 00:08:55.100 my breasts starting to develop, with the shape 00:08:55.100 --> 00:08:58.899 of my body starting to change, and realizing 00:08:58.899 --> 00:09:02.879 that there are certain expectations placed on 00:09:02.879 --> 00:09:06.019 me as a woman, some of which are harder to keep 00:09:06.019 --> 00:09:08.460 up with than others, and that people were now 00:09:08.460 --> 00:09:11.019 looking at me in a different light. now that 00:09:11.019 --> 00:09:13.320 I was developing into a young woman, especially 00:09:13.320 --> 00:09:15.620 at such a young age. I was about nine years old 00:09:15.620 --> 00:09:17.980 when I started going through puberty. So it was 00:09:17.980 --> 00:09:19.799 a little over for me. I was one of the first 00:09:19.799 --> 00:09:24.500 few girls in my class to start going through, 00:09:24.600 --> 00:09:28.960 to start developing physically. And it was very 00:09:28.960 --> 00:09:31.399 deeply uncomfortable in a lot of ways. And it 00:09:31.399 --> 00:09:34.639 brought me attention that I didn't really want 00:09:34.639 --> 00:09:37.559 or need at that time, including from adults who 00:09:37.559 --> 00:09:41.090 would make sometimes gross comments about my 00:09:41.090 --> 00:09:43.490 body. Sometimes it was teachers. Sometimes it 00:09:43.490 --> 00:09:50.210 was people on the Internet. And I also had felt 00:09:50.210 --> 00:09:53.330 for a very long time, for pretty much as long 00:09:53.330 --> 00:09:58.990 as I can remember, this feeling of being different 00:09:58.990 --> 00:10:04.950 somehow, of something separating me from my peers. 00:10:05.820 --> 00:10:09.179 It later turned out that I actually had a learning 00:10:09.179 --> 00:10:12.559 disability and that affected the way that I thought 00:10:12.559 --> 00:10:17.500 and behaved and experienced the world. And sometimes 00:10:17.500 --> 00:10:20.139 because of those differences, oftentimes actually, 00:10:20.299 --> 00:10:24.100 from a very early age, other kids would pick 00:10:24.100 --> 00:10:27.980 on me and they would bully me. And I felt like 00:10:27.980 --> 00:10:31.950 I had to harden myself against the world. I had 00:10:31.950 --> 00:10:34.049 a hard time connecting with pretty much anybody, 00:10:34.309 --> 00:10:35.889 especially the adults around me. I didn't know 00:10:35.889 --> 00:10:37.870 if there was anybody who I could confide in. 00:10:38.049 --> 00:10:40.529 So a lot of these deep feelings that I had, I 00:10:40.529 --> 00:10:45.990 would keep them down. And the only place that 00:10:45.990 --> 00:10:50.750 I really had to express them was either art or 00:10:50.750 --> 00:10:54.590 through the internet. And eventually I started 00:10:54.590 --> 00:10:59.409 to turn to technology to fulfill these unmet 00:10:59.409 --> 00:11:01.629 social needs that I had as a kid, the unmet love 00:11:01.629 --> 00:11:05.129 that I didn't really have from a lot of the people 00:11:05.129 --> 00:11:09.830 around me other than my mom and dad. And eventually 00:11:09.830 --> 00:11:12.190 the internet started to consume more of my life 00:11:12.190 --> 00:11:16.090 than my everyday waking life did. It was Instagram. 00:11:16.230 --> 00:11:21.360 Especially. Yeah, I primarily used Instagram 00:11:21.360 --> 00:11:24.679 and social media. But even before that, when 00:11:24.679 --> 00:11:28.960 I started getting my school device, I was in 00:11:28.960 --> 00:11:31.759 fifth grade. And we were allowed to take these 00:11:31.759 --> 00:11:34.179 home. So I would browse the internet when I was 00:11:34.179 --> 00:11:36.379 at home and play video games and meet people 00:11:36.379 --> 00:11:39.320 online. And eventually I got my first phone about 00:11:39.320 --> 00:11:44.779 a year or so after that. And it was like... The 00:11:44.779 --> 00:11:46.639 internet was closer than ever now. It was something 00:11:46.639 --> 00:11:48.659 that I didn't have to have it. I didn't have 00:11:48.659 --> 00:11:51.500 to be on a computer and sit down somewhere and 00:11:51.500 --> 00:11:53.440 connect it to the internet because now the internet 00:11:53.440 --> 00:11:55.220 was everywhere that I could go at the click of 00:11:55.220 --> 00:11:59.740 a button in my pocket. And so it just, it consumed 00:11:59.740 --> 00:12:03.720 my life more and more and more until I was like 00:12:03.720 --> 00:12:05.840 pretty much, I didn't really have any friends 00:12:05.840 --> 00:12:09.690 at school because I felt like I... I wasn't really 00:12:09.690 --> 00:12:12.230 like any of the other kids, and I felt more like 00:12:12.230 --> 00:12:16.909 the kids who I met online. And it just kept drawing 00:12:16.909 --> 00:12:20.830 me in until... When I started using Instagram, 00:12:21.629 --> 00:12:26.330 the social media algorithms will tend to cater 00:12:26.330 --> 00:12:30.190 themselves to the interests of the user. And 00:12:30.190 --> 00:12:32.610 so I started seeing a lot of stuff that was tailored 00:12:32.610 --> 00:12:35.610 to my own interests of things like art, video 00:12:35.610 --> 00:12:37.490 games, the other media that I would consume. 00:12:38.299 --> 00:12:47.299 and the fans around them. And I started to, I 00:12:47.299 --> 00:12:49.440 found it just so interesting how in these communities, 00:12:49.600 --> 00:12:53.279 like these other kids, they were very much like 00:12:53.279 --> 00:12:56.980 me. Many of them were artistic. Many of them 00:12:56.980 --> 00:13:00.460 were really smart kids who were different in 00:13:00.460 --> 00:13:03.539 some way. And they seemed to find a sense of 00:13:03.539 --> 00:13:10.759 comfort. in their friendships on the internets. 00:13:11.159 --> 00:13:15.399 But a lot of these kids also had another unique 00:13:15.399 --> 00:13:19.600 quality. Many of them identified as members of 00:13:19.600 --> 00:13:22.620 the LGBT community. Some of them called themselves 00:13:22.620 --> 00:13:25.059 gay or lesbian. Many of them called themselves 00:13:25.059 --> 00:13:29.200 bisexual. But most of these kids who applied 00:13:29.200 --> 00:13:31.799 this label to themselves were people who called 00:13:31.799 --> 00:13:35.600 themselves transgender. And that was a word that 00:13:35.600 --> 00:13:37.419 I had heard on the TV a few times. Sometimes 00:13:37.419 --> 00:13:40.299 I would hear the adults in my family talking 00:13:40.299 --> 00:13:42.639 about it, talking about the news to each other 00:13:42.639 --> 00:13:47.759 about it. But I never really had any personal 00:13:47.759 --> 00:13:50.720 interest in it until I started seeing these other 00:13:50.720 --> 00:13:54.000 children engaging it and living out this lifestyle. 00:13:54.379 --> 00:14:00.340 And it was just, it was, it was very novel. Like 00:14:00.340 --> 00:14:02.220 it was something that was very intellectually 00:14:02.220 --> 00:14:04.830 stimulating for me. because there was so much 00:14:04.830 --> 00:14:07.570 there was not only the personal experiences of 00:14:07.570 --> 00:14:11.110 these people to to read off of but also i discovered 00:14:11.110 --> 00:14:12.850 like a lot of like medical literature around 00:14:12.850 --> 00:14:15.090 it which i found very very interesting at the 00:14:15.090 --> 00:14:16.649 time and i started to read more and more up on 00:14:16.649 --> 00:14:21.070 it until it started to feel like personally there 00:14:21.070 --> 00:14:23.450 was a reason why i felt so attached this idea 00:14:23.450 --> 00:14:25.789 of people identifying as the opposite sex and 00:14:25.789 --> 00:14:30.070 so i started to reflect on myself and i thought 00:14:30.070 --> 00:14:34.370 well you know The older I get, the less I feel 00:14:34.370 --> 00:14:39.330 feminine and the less I feel like a girly woman. 00:14:40.070 --> 00:14:43.330 And it feels like this is something... Like, 00:14:43.389 --> 00:14:45.090 I don't really feel comfortable with the idea 00:14:45.090 --> 00:14:47.889 of growing up into a woman and having to deal 00:14:47.889 --> 00:14:51.490 with the sexual tension that I get just for being 00:14:51.490 --> 00:14:56.570 developed and for... And I thought, like, I would 00:14:56.570 --> 00:14:58.570 never be feminine. I thought that I would never 00:14:58.570 --> 00:15:00.250 go into a feminine woman, that I never would 00:15:00.250 --> 00:15:04.149 be enough because of that. And there are times 00:15:04.149 --> 00:15:05.669 when I would look at myself in the mirror and 00:15:05.669 --> 00:15:10.230 think, I'm just, like, I'm too, there's no way 00:15:10.230 --> 00:15:12.250 that I'm going to be happy that way. I wish that 00:15:12.250 --> 00:15:14.590 I was born a boy like my older brothers. I would 00:15:14.590 --> 00:15:18.350 have been so much happier. And eventually those 00:15:18.350 --> 00:15:21.929 thoughts turned into, maybe I would be. Maybe 00:15:21.929 --> 00:15:24.629 I am a young man. Maybe that's why I'm not comfortable 00:15:24.629 --> 00:15:28.370 with myself. Sometimes as a thought experiment, 00:15:28.669 --> 00:15:31.909 I think, what kind of woman would I be? And I 00:15:31.909 --> 00:15:34.529 would be a terrible woman because I am so not 00:15:34.529 --> 00:15:37.149 into the clothes and the hair and the makeup 00:15:37.149 --> 00:15:39.909 and, you know, looking pretty and all that. So 00:15:39.909 --> 00:15:44.490 I can maybe relate to a certain extent, you know. 00:15:46.279 --> 00:15:50.500 It's just a feeling inside of us. And so this 00:15:50.500 --> 00:15:52.440 was resonating with you. Going along, you sort 00:15:52.440 --> 00:15:54.340 of found a community that resonated with you. 00:15:55.080 --> 00:15:58.720 Right, absolutely. It was almost uncanny how 00:15:58.720 --> 00:16:02.899 in almost every way these kids were just so relatable 00:16:02.899 --> 00:16:09.360 to me. And I think it was the first time that 00:16:09.360 --> 00:16:12.720 I really had ever felt understood in my life. 00:16:12.840 --> 00:16:15.940 And it seemed like... For the most part, I wasn't 00:16:15.940 --> 00:16:17.899 directly interacting with these people, but I 00:16:17.899 --> 00:16:22.059 kind of lived through them vicariously as they 00:16:22.059 --> 00:16:24.600 moved through the process of transitioning, as 00:16:24.600 --> 00:16:26.740 they started to question, and then eventually 00:16:26.740 --> 00:16:30.360 they decided that they wanted to become a member 00:16:30.360 --> 00:16:32.980 of the opposite sex, start dressing like the 00:16:32.980 --> 00:16:34.919 opposite sex, and eventually some of them went 00:16:34.919 --> 00:16:37.279 on to go on the medical interventions very young. 00:16:37.799 --> 00:16:41.840 And the social acceptance that they would get, 00:16:41.940 --> 00:16:47.320 the praise. the seemingly being loved for who 00:16:47.320 --> 00:16:50.740 they thought they were, it started to hit me 00:16:50.740 --> 00:16:55.080 that these all were things that I really yearned 00:16:55.080 --> 00:17:00.179 for. And I thought, not only would I get a sense 00:17:00.179 --> 00:17:05.420 of personal gratification and a sense of peace 00:17:05.420 --> 00:17:10.319 with myself through doing this, I also would 00:17:10.319 --> 00:17:13.900 develop and make connections with a community 00:17:13.900 --> 00:17:15.700 of people who were just like me. Can you give 00:17:15.700 --> 00:17:20.920 an idea how big this community was or is? I mean, 00:17:20.940 --> 00:17:25.319 I think in the United States alone, a few million 00:17:25.319 --> 00:17:28.259 people identify as transgender, and I think that's 00:17:28.259 --> 00:17:30.000 just adults. I don't think that accounts even 00:17:30.000 --> 00:17:32.440 for children who identify as transgender, which 00:17:32.440 --> 00:17:35.859 I think children and people in their early 20s 00:17:35.859 --> 00:17:40.779 are currently the largest cohort. of the transgender 00:17:40.779 --> 00:17:44.380 community. I mean like on Instagram. At the time, 00:17:44.380 --> 00:17:48.539 it seemed like a very niche community. These 00:17:48.539 --> 00:17:51.059 groups on Instagram, how big are these groups 00:17:51.059 --> 00:17:54.319 that you were tapping into? Some of them were 00:17:54.319 --> 00:17:56.440 larger than others. Some of them were probably 00:17:56.440 --> 00:17:59.259 like a few tens of thousands of kids. Some of 00:17:59.259 --> 00:18:03.299 them were more like just a few dozen or a few 00:18:03.299 --> 00:18:07.970 hundred. And I personally tend to lean more towards 00:18:07.970 --> 00:18:09.930 those smaller groups of people because they were 00:18:09.930 --> 00:18:13.029 easier to interact with. And I didn't care much 00:18:13.029 --> 00:18:15.309 for influencers or celebrities at the time. I 00:18:15.309 --> 00:18:17.509 wasn't being influenced by transgender celebrities. 00:18:18.009 --> 00:18:22.690 It was these groups of normal kids who were just 00:18:22.690 --> 00:18:26.529 everyday people who I could relate to. So at 00:18:26.529 --> 00:18:30.670 what point did you become like a poster child? 00:18:30.910 --> 00:18:33.289 Did you become like, did they... put you out 00:18:33.289 --> 00:18:36.990 there as somebody to really follow and watch? 00:18:37.130 --> 00:18:39.190 Do you become an influencer of sorts along the 00:18:39.190 --> 00:18:43.990 way? Not exactly. I mean, I had a pretty small 00:18:43.990 --> 00:18:46.589 presence on social media at the time. I think 00:18:46.589 --> 00:18:49.150 before I started doing what I'm doing today, 00:18:49.289 --> 00:18:52.269 my largest follower count was maybe like 1 ,000 00:18:52.269 --> 00:18:59.549 or 2 ,000. And I would say that... maybe that 00:18:59.549 --> 00:19:01.509 was a little bit more so the case in real life 00:19:01.509 --> 00:19:03.950 actually as i started to progress through the 00:19:03.950 --> 00:19:08.490 process of socially transitioning um i was i 00:19:08.490 --> 00:19:11.390 hate to say it like this but almost a trailblazer 00:19:11.390 --> 00:19:13.670 amongst my friends for many of them like i was 00:19:13.670 --> 00:19:16.029 the only transgender person who they had they 00:19:16.029 --> 00:19:17.750 had known at the time we were living in a small 00:19:17.750 --> 00:19:19.930 town and it was something that people just didn't 00:19:19.930 --> 00:19:22.390 really talk about so it was kind of a shock actually 00:19:22.390 --> 00:19:26.430 when i started to to my to my friends and the 00:19:26.430 --> 00:19:30.460 people around me um when I started to go through 00:19:30.460 --> 00:19:33.140 this process and I started to change pretty much 00:19:33.140 --> 00:19:39.500 visibly in every way. I told my mom, well, first 00:19:39.500 --> 00:19:42.380 I had told a few friends from school and then 00:19:42.380 --> 00:19:45.539 eventually one of my older sisters until I had 00:19:45.539 --> 00:19:47.559 told my mom and dad about these feelings about 00:19:47.559 --> 00:19:51.799 a month before my 13th birthday. And while they 00:19:51.799 --> 00:19:55.420 wanted to, well, the reaction between my friends 00:19:55.420 --> 00:19:58.240 and family was very different. My friends at 00:19:58.240 --> 00:20:00.599 school, actually, they had their wits about them 00:20:00.599 --> 00:20:05.440 and they were like, no, this is, this is, we 00:20:05.440 --> 00:20:06.940 don't believe that you're a boy and we're not 00:20:06.940 --> 00:20:09.059 going to act like you're a boy. And they were 00:20:09.059 --> 00:20:10.839 actually the first few people to push back against 00:20:10.839 --> 00:20:13.440 this. But it wasn't in a, it wasn't in a way 00:20:13.440 --> 00:20:16.200 that exactly showed concern for me personally. 00:20:16.640 --> 00:20:19.119 It was more so like, we're going to pick on you 00:20:19.119 --> 00:20:22.289 because you're acting differently, which. I think, 00:20:22.309 --> 00:20:24.890 unfortunately, when you're in middle school, 00:20:25.049 --> 00:20:26.930 that's kind of the expected attitude when you 00:20:26.930 --> 00:20:29.109 do anything different. And I don't exactly blame 00:20:29.109 --> 00:20:32.869 them for acting as a bunch of 11-, 12-, 13 -year 00:20:32.869 --> 00:20:37.089 -olds do. But my mom and dad, they were really 00:20:37.089 --> 00:20:39.789 not sure exactly what they should do. It was 00:20:39.789 --> 00:20:43.230 something that they'd heard about the news, they'd 00:20:43.230 --> 00:20:48.509 heard celebrities doing it before, but this is 00:20:48.509 --> 00:20:50.809 not something they ever... thought they would 00:20:50.809 --> 00:20:54.809 hear from their own child. And while they wanted 00:20:54.809 --> 00:20:56.950 to help me feel comfortable with myself, they 00:20:56.950 --> 00:20:58.990 wanted to help me figure out what was going on 00:20:58.990 --> 00:21:02.529 exactly, they never once believed that I actually 00:21:02.529 --> 00:21:07.019 was a young man. So they pushed back on it a 00:21:07.019 --> 00:21:09.299 little bit even. They challenged me, especially 00:21:09.299 --> 00:21:12.359 when I started talking about the medical process 00:21:12.359 --> 00:21:14.480 of things. They told me, like, no, we want you, 00:21:14.559 --> 00:21:17.559 we want this to wait. We don't want to be responsible 00:21:17.559 --> 00:21:19.619 for this. We don't want you to be going down 00:21:19.619 --> 00:21:26.599 a path of permanent physical changes when you're 00:21:26.599 --> 00:21:29.980 still very much a kid. And I think my mom and 00:21:29.980 --> 00:21:34.089 dad had the right idea in mind. And when it came 00:21:34.089 --> 00:21:38.869 to the world outside of our family, I didn't 00:21:38.869 --> 00:21:43.109 tell my school. I didn't really tell anybody 00:21:43.109 --> 00:21:46.210 at school other than my close circle of friends 00:21:46.210 --> 00:21:48.670 about my feelings or about what I was going through, 00:21:49.109 --> 00:21:53.309 not even my teachers. So they had no idea that 00:21:53.309 --> 00:21:56.289 I was actually transitioning until in the middle 00:21:56.289 --> 00:21:58.980 of eighth grade, I started to... actually start 00:21:58.980 --> 00:22:01.519 taking the hormones and going on the procedures 00:22:01.519 --> 00:22:03.299 and it was very it was very confusing for them 00:22:03.299 --> 00:22:07.519 so this was in california right yes is that uh 00:22:07.519 --> 00:22:09.980 part of the story as well that maybe in california 00:22:09.980 --> 00:22:11.839 the the rules and regulations are a little bit 00:22:11.839 --> 00:22:14.500 different and parents don't need to be involved 00:22:14.500 --> 00:22:18.079 with the kids transition and like is that sort 00:22:18.079 --> 00:22:21.880 of sort of part of the story yeah california 00:22:21.880 --> 00:22:25.920 is unfortunately as much as i love my state one 00:22:25.920 --> 00:22:30.079 of the They've done one of the worst jobs handling 00:22:30.079 --> 00:22:34.660 this issue. I mean, we have, as of now, over 00:22:34.660 --> 00:22:38.740 half the United States has put some measure in 00:22:38.740 --> 00:22:42.319 place to prevent kids from being able to access 00:22:42.319 --> 00:22:45.279 these treatments and be medically abused. But 00:22:45.279 --> 00:22:46.980 unfortunately, we're going in the opposite direction. 00:22:47.000 --> 00:22:50.160 We're facilitating this. We're allowing children 00:22:50.160 --> 00:22:54.140 to run away from their families. even from other 00:22:54.140 --> 00:22:58.259 states, even ignoring the custody laws of other 00:22:58.259 --> 00:23:01.259 states to become a sanctuary state of sorts where 00:23:01.259 --> 00:23:03.920 pretty much any child in the U .S. can come to 00:23:03.920 --> 00:23:08.440 us and go down this dangerous medical and lifestyle 00:23:08.440 --> 00:23:15.000 route. Wow. And there are several laws in place 00:23:15.000 --> 00:23:20.119 that I think played a... a really dangerous role 00:23:20.119 --> 00:23:24.720 in my own story. They completely, by California 00:23:24.720 --> 00:23:28.259 law, insurance companies, private and public, 00:23:28.480 --> 00:23:32.640 have to cover, have to completely cover every 00:23:32.640 --> 00:23:37.000 single one of these treatments. So it incentivizes 00:23:37.000 --> 00:23:39.539 patients to go through it because not only is 00:23:39.539 --> 00:23:44.200 it touted as a lifesaving cure for gender -confused 00:23:44.200 --> 00:23:46.940 children, it's also pretty much completely free. 00:23:48.119 --> 00:23:56.819 It seems like a no -brainer for these kids. Transgenderism 00:23:56.819 --> 00:24:00.720 is included in our anti -conversion therapy law. 00:24:01.259 --> 00:24:06.019 So anything other than therapists or medical 00:24:06.019 --> 00:24:09.359 professionals mindlessly affirming these patients 00:24:09.359 --> 00:24:11.400 and their feelings, anything other than telling 00:24:11.400 --> 00:24:14.099 them, yes, you are transgender, yes, you are 00:24:14.099 --> 00:24:15.920 the opposite sex, and we are going to facilitate 00:24:15.920 --> 00:24:18.400 a medical transition for you. can be considered 00:24:18.400 --> 00:24:20.880 conversion therapy. And a therapist or a medical 00:24:20.880 --> 00:24:23.720 professional can lose their license if they try 00:24:23.720 --> 00:24:28.160 to do the right thing and question it. And then 00:24:28.160 --> 00:24:31.859 you had therapy, and your parents were not involved, 00:24:32.079 --> 00:24:33.900 were not allowed to be involved in that as well? 00:24:34.240 --> 00:24:38.220 No, no. So that's also another part of that. 00:24:38.319 --> 00:24:42.220 In California, minors, I think, starting at the 00:24:42.220 --> 00:24:46.470 age of 12, are considered to be... emancipated 00:24:46.470 --> 00:24:49.789 when it comes to their, when it comes to mental 00:24:49.789 --> 00:24:52.690 health care. So their mental health records are, 00:24:52.829 --> 00:24:54.730 I don't think they're accessible by the parent 00:24:54.730 --> 00:24:58.170 without like explicit consent given by the child. 00:24:58.390 --> 00:25:01.150 And they're also not required to be even in the 00:25:01.150 --> 00:25:03.369 room during these appointments, unless again, 00:25:03.430 --> 00:25:06.529 the child gives their consent. But that means 00:25:06.529 --> 00:25:10.900 that in situations like mine, parents aren't 00:25:10.900 --> 00:25:13.319 really empowered to actually help their children 00:25:13.319 --> 00:25:16.859 if they are in psychiatric distress and that 00:25:16.859 --> 00:25:19.119 was certainly the case for my mom and dad they 00:25:19.119 --> 00:25:21.220 had no idea what was going on during these appointments 00:25:21.220 --> 00:25:24.200 they started sending me to therapy after i told 00:25:24.200 --> 00:25:26.539 them after i came out to them as transgender 00:25:26.539 --> 00:25:29.740 because they wanted to they wanted to figure 00:25:29.740 --> 00:25:32.480 out what exactly was mentally going on for me 00:25:32.480 --> 00:25:34.119 where these feelings were coming from whether 00:25:34.119 --> 00:25:37.019 they came from a deeper place potentially of 00:25:37.019 --> 00:25:43.279 trauma um or some other issue. But in order for 00:25:43.279 --> 00:25:45.779 a child to truly be helped, their parents have 00:25:45.779 --> 00:25:48.059 to be in the picture. But they were not followed 00:25:48.059 --> 00:25:49.759 up with about what was being discussed during 00:25:49.759 --> 00:25:51.859 the appointments. They weren't told about what 00:25:51.859 --> 00:25:54.500 I was going to be, what the process would even 00:25:54.500 --> 00:25:57.980 look like for me. So they started to understandably 00:25:57.980 --> 00:26:01.200 get very frustrated. They decided that they were 00:26:01.200 --> 00:26:04.519 going to speak. to the psychologists themselves 00:26:04.519 --> 00:26:07.220 and start pushing back on them a little bit, 00:26:07.240 --> 00:26:09.059 start asking, like, what's going on with her? 00:26:09.279 --> 00:26:12.019 Why does she feel this way? Why does she feel 00:26:12.019 --> 00:26:17.259 the need to go down this medical pipeline? Why 00:26:17.259 --> 00:26:19.619 can't we wait until she's an adult? Exactly. 00:26:19.900 --> 00:26:22.039 And what are the odds that she's going to regret 00:26:22.039 --> 00:26:23.839 this, which are all very sensible questions, 00:26:23.940 --> 00:26:26.900 all questions that any parent who is going through 00:26:26.900 --> 00:26:28.579 this with their child should be asking medical 00:26:28.579 --> 00:26:32.910 professionals. But... The doctors were not doing 00:26:32.910 --> 00:26:35.710 their job. They were very deceptive. They lied 00:26:35.710 --> 00:26:39.890 to my mom and dad. They lied to me that I was 00:26:39.890 --> 00:26:43.829 a boy. And they told me that we're going to have 00:26:43.829 --> 00:26:46.650 your mom and dad go along with this. And what 00:26:46.650 --> 00:26:51.190 they told my mom and dad was that this was a 00:26:51.190 --> 00:26:54.009 quality, this was a trait about myself that was 00:26:54.009 --> 00:26:57.019 innate. I couldn't control it. that me being 00:26:57.019 --> 00:26:59.819 transgender was not a phase, that children understand 00:26:59.819 --> 00:27:04.240 their gender identity from a very young age. 00:27:04.980 --> 00:27:09.180 And they started to go even deeper, talking about 00:27:09.180 --> 00:27:13.619 the suicide statistics. There is a commonly misrepresented 00:27:13.619 --> 00:27:18.539 suicide statistic. in the transgender community 00:27:18.539 --> 00:27:21.440 of about 41%. And I think that's in reference 00:27:21.440 --> 00:27:25.220 to suicide, either suicide attempts or people 00:27:25.220 --> 00:27:27.660 experiencing feelings of suicidality and not 00:27:27.660 --> 00:27:31.960 completed suicides. And these are adult patients 00:27:31.960 --> 00:27:35.920 that this survey was pulling. And they were using 00:27:35.920 --> 00:27:38.160 it to convince my mom and dad, hey, this is, 00:27:38.180 --> 00:27:41.680 if you don't allow your child to go through this, 00:27:41.799 --> 00:27:44.539 the longer that she goes without this treatment. 00:27:46.700 --> 00:27:50.039 the more likely it will be that she ends up taking 00:27:50.039 --> 00:27:53.180 her own life. And they didn't just say this once. 00:27:54.640 --> 00:27:59.680 They repeated this lie to my mom and dad at every 00:27:59.680 --> 00:28:04.299 step of the way. So my mom and dad not being 00:28:04.299 --> 00:28:08.960 given any other choice, being led to believe 00:28:08.960 --> 00:28:12.160 that my life would literally be on the line if 00:28:12.160 --> 00:28:17.509 they said no, they said yes. Because they wanted 00:28:17.509 --> 00:28:23.750 me to be okay. They hated the thought of their 00:28:23.750 --> 00:28:27.509 daughter taking her own life. Did you ever have 00:28:27.509 --> 00:28:31.569 any thoughts about suicidal ideation? Not at 00:28:31.569 --> 00:28:34.650 the time. I was a perfectly healthy young woman. 00:28:34.970 --> 00:28:38.609 No, I was a little girl. I was barely 12 going 00:28:38.609 --> 00:28:42.490 on 13. And I wasn't thinking about taking my 00:28:42.490 --> 00:28:46.980 own life at all. I was... I was a little depressed 00:28:46.980 --> 00:28:48.960 at the time. I didn't really have any friends 00:28:48.960 --> 00:28:52.480 at school. And I was struggling to understand 00:28:52.480 --> 00:28:55.180 who I was and orient myself in the world around 00:28:55.180 --> 00:28:59.299 me. But I wanted to have a better life. I didn't 00:28:59.299 --> 00:29:02.700 want to die. Until I had started all of these 00:29:02.700 --> 00:29:07.319 treatments. Normal young person confusion as 00:29:07.319 --> 00:29:10.160 they grow up and go through adolescence. Right. 00:29:10.220 --> 00:29:15.180 And there were some things in my life that... 00:29:15.769 --> 00:29:18.190 went a little bit deeper than that. I mean, I 00:29:18.190 --> 00:29:20.609 had been sexually assaulted by a classmate. I 00:29:20.609 --> 00:29:23.309 had some sexual trauma. I had been exposed to 00:29:23.309 --> 00:29:26.150 things, some certain things, just far too early 00:29:26.150 --> 00:29:30.049 in my life. But ultimately, the gist of what 00:29:30.049 --> 00:29:34.589 I was experiencing was distress that everybody 00:29:34.589 --> 00:29:38.829 goes through as they grow up. And yet, unlike 00:29:38.829 --> 00:29:41.690 other children, I wasn't given the chance by 00:29:41.690 --> 00:29:47.829 my doctors to just experience So fast forward, 00:29:47.910 --> 00:29:54.349 you changed your mind and you wanted to undo 00:29:54.349 --> 00:29:57.789 everything. At that point, were you a known figure? 00:29:57.910 --> 00:29:59.890 Were you a notable figure? At what point did 00:29:59.890 --> 00:30:05.369 you become known? I mean, that wasn't until much 00:30:05.369 --> 00:30:10.029 later after I had detransitioned. I mean, my 00:30:10.029 --> 00:30:12.829 life was completely different after I began transitioning. 00:30:13.089 --> 00:30:15.730 And once I was out of my eighth grade year and 00:30:15.730 --> 00:30:17.869 I was moving into my freshman year of high school, 00:30:17.930 --> 00:30:20.910 I looked and sounded like pretty much any other 00:30:20.910 --> 00:30:23.950 young man my age. And I actually had a deeper 00:30:23.950 --> 00:30:26.130 voice than a lot of my male classmates, funnily 00:30:26.130 --> 00:30:30.089 enough. So I passed as a member of the opposite 00:30:30.089 --> 00:30:33.670 sex, so to speak. And so I went through most 00:30:33.670 --> 00:30:37.369 of my high school years. with people knowing 00:30:37.369 --> 00:30:41.069 me as a young man named Leo. And because I was 00:30:41.069 --> 00:30:43.410 at a new school, most people didn't actually 00:30:43.410 --> 00:30:46.569 know that I was really a girl. And it was, it 00:30:46.569 --> 00:30:48.569 was kind of a, it was a bizarre experience in 00:30:48.569 --> 00:30:51.769 a lot of ways, but I also, it was very interesting. 00:30:51.950 --> 00:30:53.990 And sometimes it was kind of fun getting to live 00:30:53.990 --> 00:30:56.289 in that male role and learn a little bit more 00:30:56.289 --> 00:30:58.190 about the opposite sex and take up, take upon 00:30:58.190 --> 00:31:01.109 that role. But it also was very difficult at 00:31:01.109 --> 00:31:04.059 times. I mean, the grass is always greener on 00:31:04.059 --> 00:31:06.039 the other side. I had wished from a very young 00:31:06.039 --> 00:31:10.519 age that I was a boy and that I didn't have to 00:31:10.519 --> 00:31:12.019 deal with some of the trials and tribulations 00:31:12.019 --> 00:31:14.000 of being a girl growing up into a young woman. 00:31:14.279 --> 00:31:17.839 But really, especially in the world that we live 00:31:17.839 --> 00:31:20.579 in today, we live in a culture that really devalues 00:31:20.579 --> 00:31:24.500 young men and ignores the struggles that they 00:31:24.500 --> 00:31:31.099 experience. I got to see my own male friends 00:31:31.099 --> 00:31:33.200 going through their own struggles and largely 00:31:33.200 --> 00:31:35.619 being ignored because they were men and they 00:31:35.619 --> 00:31:37.160 just didn't really matter to the world around 00:31:37.160 --> 00:31:38.640 them and they didn't really have a place where 00:31:38.640 --> 00:31:40.460 they could, an outlet where they could get those 00:31:40.460 --> 00:31:43.460 feelings out. And I experienced that myself as 00:31:43.460 --> 00:31:48.259 well. And psychologically, I mean, the testosterone 00:31:48.259 --> 00:31:51.759 was not only changing me physically in my appearance, 00:31:51.880 --> 00:31:54.980 in my voice, and in my body, but also affecting 00:31:54.980 --> 00:31:58.410 the way that I behaved and thought. And it made 00:31:58.410 --> 00:32:00.849 it a lot harder for me to process my emotions. 00:32:01.250 --> 00:32:06.670 I was prone to bouts of anger, long spirals of 00:32:06.670 --> 00:32:10.430 depression, and sometimes I would have psychiatric 00:32:10.430 --> 00:32:15.069 episodes. And even though it was so clear that 00:32:15.069 --> 00:32:16.869 it was the treatment and the lifestyle that I 00:32:16.869 --> 00:32:20.150 was living that was leading me down the spiral, 00:32:20.210 --> 00:32:23.150 and yet none of my doctors really questioned 00:32:23.150 --> 00:32:25.009 along the way whether they were doing the right 00:32:25.009 --> 00:32:28.319 thing or not. And it led me further down the 00:32:28.319 --> 00:32:33.640 path until I had surgery at 15 years old. I hadn't 00:32:33.640 --> 00:32:37.119 even had a driver's course yet. I was too young 00:32:37.119 --> 00:32:40.460 to drive a car, and yet I was allowed to undergo 00:32:40.460 --> 00:32:44.079 this permanent removal of a completely healthy 00:32:44.079 --> 00:32:47.079 part of my body. That was incredibly damaging, 00:32:47.180 --> 00:32:51.519 and ultimately that was the catalyst to me realizing 00:32:51.519 --> 00:32:58.099 that this was the wrong choice. that this was 00:32:58.099 --> 00:33:02.140 something that was destroying me in every single 00:33:02.140 --> 00:33:05.740 way, psychologically, physically, with my health. 00:33:05.940 --> 00:33:09.859 And when I was 16, I had this epiphany that I 00:33:09.859 --> 00:33:13.400 had aspirations to become a mother, that I wanted 00:33:13.400 --> 00:33:16.779 to become a wife, that I wanted to actually live 00:33:16.779 --> 00:33:22.140 in a very feminine role. But I worried that I 00:33:22.140 --> 00:33:24.559 never would be enough. And my identity issues 00:33:24.559 --> 00:33:26.400 didn't come from my body, didn't come from the 00:33:26.400 --> 00:33:28.339 way that I was born. It wasn't some sort of genetic 00:33:28.339 --> 00:33:34.119 anomaly or alternative brain pattern that I had 00:33:34.119 --> 00:33:37.859 that was making me this way. It was just me struggling 00:33:37.859 --> 00:33:42.539 socially. And that was okay. I didn't have to 00:33:42.539 --> 00:33:45.920 change these parts of myself in order to become 00:33:45.920 --> 00:33:50.880 happy with myself. And by trying to do so, I... 00:33:51.579 --> 00:33:54.619 was losing parts of myself as an adult woman, 00:33:54.720 --> 00:33:56.799 first my breast and potentially my fertility 00:33:56.799 --> 00:34:00.339 down the line. And I knew then I couldn't keep 00:34:00.339 --> 00:34:04.740 doing this. I had to give it up, and I had to 00:34:04.740 --> 00:34:07.640 find a new life after transition. So I know your 00:34:07.640 --> 00:34:12.079 parents are involved in your journey, and I'm 00:34:12.079 --> 00:34:13.480 sure people ask you all the time, where were 00:34:13.480 --> 00:34:14.940 your parents in all this? Where were your parents 00:34:14.940 --> 00:34:17.420 in all this? Who's taking you to these appointments? 00:34:17.579 --> 00:34:21.699 Who took you to the surgery the morning of? Did 00:34:21.699 --> 00:34:24.519 they go along with it? Because if they didn't, 00:34:24.519 --> 00:34:27.659 it would be even worse. What was that all about? 00:34:27.820 --> 00:34:30.280 Well, it was my mom and dad. Yeah, they were 00:34:30.280 --> 00:34:34.840 the ones who were taking me to this. And it was 00:34:34.840 --> 00:34:42.059 a huge dilemma for them. We've had a lot of deep, 00:34:42.119 --> 00:34:44.699 intimate conversations about this after the fact. 00:34:44.980 --> 00:34:49.719 And they've told me they never saw me as their 00:34:49.719 --> 00:34:53.500 son. They never believed that I was transgender. 00:34:54.340 --> 00:34:56.980 They never believed that I was a boy in any way. 00:34:58.000 --> 00:35:03.639 But they had my life threatened by the doctors 00:35:03.639 --> 00:35:07.940 so many times. And to hear that over and over 00:35:07.940 --> 00:35:11.619 and over again, they were just, they were deeply 00:35:11.619 --> 00:35:15.699 afraid for me. I mean, raising me already was 00:35:15.699 --> 00:35:19.420 a struggle because I had some birth defects, 00:35:19.599 --> 00:35:22.420 I had some health issues, I had a learning disability, 00:35:22.739 --> 00:35:24.960 so I was a little bit different and a lot more 00:35:24.960 --> 00:35:28.260 difficult. And to have just another thing thrown 00:35:28.260 --> 00:35:30.519 at them again with all this, by our doctors, 00:35:30.860 --> 00:35:34.840 they were scrambling to find an answer and they 00:35:34.840 --> 00:35:36.719 were trying to do what was right for me. But 00:35:36.719 --> 00:35:40.619 they also knew deep down in their hearts, I think 00:35:40.619 --> 00:35:43.889 that all of us were being led astray. And so 00:35:43.889 --> 00:35:46.469 when it came time for me to detransition, when 00:35:46.469 --> 00:35:50.429 I came to them talking about my regret and tears, 00:35:50.829 --> 00:35:54.289 there was a lot of guilt that they were experiencing. 00:35:54.889 --> 00:36:00.630 And they felt like for years they blamed themselves 00:36:00.630 --> 00:36:05.670 for this. And I think to an extent, every parent 00:36:05.670 --> 00:36:09.920 has a bit of culpability. when their child experiences 00:36:09.920 --> 00:36:13.920 deep psychiatric issues like gender dysphoria. 00:36:14.880 --> 00:36:18.719 But it's not their fault, and it certainly wasn't 00:36:18.719 --> 00:36:23.300 the fault of my mom and dad. And they, throughout 00:36:23.300 --> 00:36:27.800 the process, our relationship was kind of a big 00:36:27.800 --> 00:36:30.340 struggle. We got closer for a little bit in the 00:36:30.340 --> 00:36:33.659 early stages of my transition, as I seemed to 00:36:33.659 --> 00:36:36.710 get better, at least superficially. And then 00:36:36.710 --> 00:36:39.349 as reality started to hit me down, like further 00:36:39.349 --> 00:36:42.750 down the line, as I started to, as my physical 00:36:42.750 --> 00:36:45.710 and mental health started to tank, I started 00:36:45.710 --> 00:36:47.670 to shut myself off from everybody in my life, 00:36:47.710 --> 00:36:49.210 including my own mom and dad. We'd always get 00:36:49.210 --> 00:36:52.710 into fights. We just kept, there was this growing 00:36:52.710 --> 00:36:56.090 rift between us until I came to them saying, 00:36:56.230 --> 00:36:59.610 like, I can't keep doing this anymore. And as 00:36:59.610 --> 00:37:02.760 difficult as that initially was, as we were scrambling 00:37:02.760 --> 00:37:04.800 to figure out, like, what do we do? Like, we've 00:37:04.800 --> 00:37:07.500 lost, like, she's basically lost, like, her entire 00:37:07.500 --> 00:37:10.840 adolescence to this. They also started to see 00:37:10.840 --> 00:37:15.440 a bit of resilience in me as I was fighting for 00:37:15.440 --> 00:37:19.760 my life to find a new normal. As I started to 00:37:19.760 --> 00:37:22.639 reorient myself again, as I started to become 00:37:22.639 --> 00:37:24.699 more feminine, as the light started to return 00:37:24.699 --> 00:37:29.550 to my eyes, they were so grateful that I... was 00:37:29.550 --> 00:37:32.690 able to come back from this and Especially that 00:37:32.690 --> 00:37:35.590 we were able to I was able to use my story our 00:37:35.590 --> 00:37:38.210 story really as a family to help other families 00:37:38.210 --> 00:37:40.989 in need and I don't think they give themselves 00:37:40.989 --> 00:37:43.190 enough credit for that because I if I didn't 00:37:43.190 --> 00:37:45.789 have them If I didn't have my family if I didn't 00:37:45.789 --> 00:37:49.019 have my mom and dad during this time During that 00:37:49.019 --> 00:37:50.599 very difficult period in my life. I don't know 00:37:50.599 --> 00:37:54.039 where I would be today So was it a some sort 00:37:54.039 --> 00:37:56.340 of like a psychedelic journey or something that 00:37:56.340 --> 00:37:58.719 opened your eyes today if I recall correctly? 00:37:59.820 --> 00:38:03.300 Um, I Mean there were a lot of things that eventually 00:38:03.300 --> 00:38:05.579 led to me realizing that my transition was mistake. 00:38:06.019 --> 00:38:13.440 Um, I Did during my during the post -surgery 00:38:13.440 --> 00:38:16.840 period experiment a little bit with substances 00:38:16.840 --> 00:38:21.460 because I was self -medicating. I was struggling 00:38:21.460 --> 00:38:25.300 so much to deal with the weight that was on my 00:38:25.300 --> 00:38:28.460 shoulders from being on the drugs, from having 00:38:28.460 --> 00:38:33.980 just lost my breasts. And unfortunately, I was 00:38:33.980 --> 00:38:36.460 surrounded by a lot of bad influences and I turned 00:38:36.460 --> 00:38:39.260 to the use of psychedelic, psychoactive substances. 00:38:40.380 --> 00:38:46.820 um and recreationally for 15s yes um yes recreationally 00:38:46.820 --> 00:38:53.420 and not well i mean a 15 year old getting their 00:38:53.420 --> 00:38:56.260 hands on on street drugs is not therapeutic at 00:38:56.260 --> 00:39:01.039 all but i it was it was a very it was obviously 00:39:01.039 --> 00:39:03.079 a very dangerous thing for me to do but i think 00:39:03.079 --> 00:39:05.820 that there was and i'm not trying to encourage 00:39:05.820 --> 00:39:07.440 the use of these substances at all but there 00:39:07.440 --> 00:39:11.119 was some value in that I think it did open up 00:39:11.119 --> 00:39:14.699 my mind a little bit to realizing that, I mean, 00:39:14.699 --> 00:39:18.960 at one point it hit me that I was living a lie, 00:39:19.119 --> 00:39:23.260 that I was being dishonest with myself, that 00:39:23.260 --> 00:39:28.320 I was living a life that was focused on like 00:39:28.320 --> 00:39:32.320 pleasure and gratification rather than being, 00:39:32.360 --> 00:39:35.480 and that was destroying me. It was destroying 00:39:35.480 --> 00:39:39.210 the lives of the people around me. But it didn't 00:39:39.210 --> 00:39:44.090 really... I couldn't really come to a conclusion 00:39:44.090 --> 00:39:48.130 from that until... It was going to take a little 00:39:48.130 --> 00:39:49.670 bit of time for me to process what that really 00:39:49.670 --> 00:39:52.869 meant. And the final nail in the coffin to my 00:39:52.869 --> 00:39:55.750 transition was me taking a class in psychology, 00:39:56.010 --> 00:40:01.309 actually, and learning mostly about... children's 00:40:01.309 --> 00:40:04.389 formative years and how children from infancy 00:40:04.389 --> 00:40:07.050 up until 18 years old develop and how things 00:40:07.050 --> 00:40:09.449 like parenting styles and attachment play a role 00:40:09.449 --> 00:40:14.690 in that. And it was when I realized that my identity, 00:40:15.010 --> 00:40:17.050 my struggles with my identity didn't come from 00:40:17.050 --> 00:40:20.429 my gender, but instead from a broken attachment 00:40:20.429 --> 00:40:27.610 style that I chose to stop transitioning. Amazing. 00:40:27.769 --> 00:40:33.400 Wow. So let's talk about cancellation. So along 00:40:33.400 --> 00:40:36.980 the way, even during the transition and detransitioning, 00:40:37.000 --> 00:40:41.340 you gained and lost people along the way. Did 00:40:41.340 --> 00:40:44.559 you ever lose anybody super important in your 00:40:44.559 --> 00:40:49.400 life? Like how hurtful was it? Maybe you could 00:40:49.400 --> 00:40:52.539 share a story of a heartbreak along the way, 00:40:52.619 --> 00:40:58.889 whether it's before or after. I went through 00:40:58.889 --> 00:41:04.190 a lot of personal loss during the first, especially 00:41:04.190 --> 00:41:08.369 the first year of my detransition. I lost the 00:41:08.369 --> 00:41:11.590 support of my doctors. When I came back to them, 00:41:11.650 --> 00:41:14.829 when I came back to the same people who had put 00:41:14.829 --> 00:41:16.769 me on this course of treatment in the first place, 00:41:17.030 --> 00:41:20.190 they no longer had an answer for me. And part 00:41:20.190 --> 00:41:21.949 of that is the fact that there's no acknowledgement 00:41:21.949 --> 00:41:23.869 of detransition or the people who experienced 00:41:23.869 --> 00:41:26.550 it. in the medical community at all there's no 00:41:26.550 --> 00:41:28.710 there's no standards of care written for those 00:41:28.710 --> 00:41:32.889 of us who choose to stop so there's no framework 00:41:32.889 --> 00:41:35.570 for doctors to really work off of with patients 00:41:35.570 --> 00:41:40.309 like me but also they had it was like this they 00:41:40.309 --> 00:41:43.269 had this attitude of you're not our problem anymore 00:41:44.079 --> 00:41:45.920 We don't know what to do with you, and we don't 00:41:45.920 --> 00:41:47.880 want to face our mistake. So we're not going 00:41:47.880 --> 00:41:50.860 to help you, even with basic things. I was asking 00:41:50.860 --> 00:41:53.559 for a regular blood test. I was asking for a 00:41:53.559 --> 00:41:56.659 chart of where my sex hormone level should be 00:41:56.659 --> 00:42:00.159 at for a woman. I was asking for them to do simple 00:42:00.159 --> 00:42:04.360 changes, like just changing my sex marker and 00:42:04.360 --> 00:42:08.599 my name back to my birth name in my records. 00:42:09.179 --> 00:42:13.929 I still get letters from Kaiser. addressing me 00:42:13.929 --> 00:42:16.829 as a young man, addressing me by the name Leo, 00:42:17.050 --> 00:42:19.110 even though I had begged multiple doctors, I 00:42:19.110 --> 00:42:22.170 had begged even my personal physician to do this 00:42:22.170 --> 00:42:25.750 for me. And it was just like a total pick in 00:42:25.750 --> 00:42:30.210 the stomach. It was like, I haven't seen a doctor 00:42:30.210 --> 00:42:32.949 in like four years because I'm still so afraid 00:42:32.949 --> 00:42:36.130 that I'm just not going to be heard. I have medical 00:42:36.130 --> 00:42:38.969 trauma. Conversion is covered in California, 00:42:39.070 --> 00:42:43.110 but not deconversion. They didn't think at all. 00:42:43.110 --> 00:42:47.150 Right. There are no laws and there's no medical, 00:42:47.349 --> 00:42:51.250 there's no standards of care in place that even 00:42:51.250 --> 00:42:53.889 mention the word detransition, even though it's 00:42:53.889 --> 00:42:57.530 such an obvious likely outcome, especially for 00:42:57.530 --> 00:43:02.309 the kids who go through it. And in my personal 00:43:02.309 --> 00:43:07.690 relationships, the moment that I announced that 00:43:07.690 --> 00:43:11.909 I was detransitioning, the majority of the transgender 00:43:11.909 --> 00:43:14.869 community and even my longtime transgender friends 00:43:14.869 --> 00:43:21.809 had turned on me. And they would, at best, they 00:43:21.809 --> 00:43:25.710 would go silent on me. They would block me. They 00:43:25.710 --> 00:43:29.130 would stop associating with me quietly. At worst, 00:43:29.230 --> 00:43:31.369 they would actively go out of their way to blame 00:43:31.369 --> 00:43:33.150 me for everything that happened. They would say, 00:43:33.289 --> 00:43:35.090 this is all your fault. You should have known 00:43:35.090 --> 00:43:37.429 better. It didn't matter that you were a 13 -year 00:43:37.429 --> 00:43:42.849 -old girl. You were just being stupid. And obviously 00:43:42.849 --> 00:43:44.550 you weren't really transgender. You were taking 00:43:44.550 --> 00:43:46.130 away treatment from people who really would have 00:43:46.130 --> 00:43:48.789 deserved it. You didn't deserve to have a loving 00:43:48.789 --> 00:43:50.590 family. You didn't deserve to have doctors who 00:43:50.590 --> 00:43:52.389 would support you through this. You're garbage 00:43:52.389 --> 00:43:54.809 to us. You're a traitor. And you should be ashamed 00:43:54.809 --> 00:43:56.769 of yourself. Incredibly vicious, yes. People 00:43:56.769 --> 00:43:58.789 would even say, like, I should take my own life. 00:43:59.750 --> 00:44:02.829 And I still get that today. And it hurts so much 00:44:02.829 --> 00:44:06.340 because these were people who I once loved. People 00:44:06.340 --> 00:44:09.840 who I once looked up to, people who once treated 00:44:09.840 --> 00:44:14.320 me like I was a role model, a hero, they had 00:44:14.320 --> 00:44:17.340 celebrated me the further that I went in. And 00:44:17.340 --> 00:44:20.639 yet the moment that I stopped, they let their 00:44:20.639 --> 00:44:22.860 own personal insecurities, they let their own 00:44:22.860 --> 00:44:25.480 feelings of fear of regretting their own transition 00:44:25.480 --> 00:44:28.960 get in the way and start attacking me. And one 00:44:28.960 --> 00:44:33.500 of those people was my best friend since fifth 00:44:33.500 --> 00:44:36.809 grade. I end up losing her down the line, too. 00:44:36.869 --> 00:44:39.889 At first, like, she feigned support. She would 00:44:39.889 --> 00:44:42.829 say things like, oh, I'm so glad you found yourself. 00:44:42.989 --> 00:44:45.210 Even then, I could tell, like, she wasn't feeling 00:44:45.210 --> 00:44:49.489 too hot about it. I haven't heard from her in 00:44:49.489 --> 00:44:54.289 three or four years, and unfortunately, I... 00:44:54.289 --> 00:44:59.869 She's somebody who I worry about a lot, and I 00:44:59.869 --> 00:45:01.590 think about her, and I pray for her every day 00:45:01.590 --> 00:45:06.969 because I... Even our friends have told me, she's 00:45:06.969 --> 00:45:09.550 going down the route that you did. When we can 00:45:09.550 --> 00:45:11.690 tell that things are going to end up the same 00:45:11.690 --> 00:45:13.929 for her or worse if she doesn't turn back now. 00:45:14.789 --> 00:45:17.869 She's on the transition journey herself? Yes, 00:45:17.909 --> 00:45:23.849 she's been on the drugs too. She started testosterone 00:45:23.849 --> 00:45:26.329 and I'm afraid every day that she is going to 00:45:26.329 --> 00:45:29.309 repeat my same mistakes and go into surgery. 00:45:33.599 --> 00:45:36.820 I've lost so many people who I care about to 00:45:36.820 --> 00:45:39.199 this, and many of them willingly chose to cut 00:45:39.199 --> 00:45:42.219 me off after I decided that I wasn't going to 00:45:42.219 --> 00:45:44.940 live this way anymore. And even some of that 00:45:44.940 --> 00:45:47.619 came from friends outside of the transgender 00:45:47.619 --> 00:45:52.079 community, people at school. I detransitioned 00:45:52.079 --> 00:45:54.800 just before my senior year of high school, which 00:45:54.800 --> 00:45:56.400 was just incredibly rough for so many different 00:45:56.400 --> 00:45:59.219 reasons. Like, medically, it was just hell, and 00:45:59.219 --> 00:46:04.219 I was so sickly. especially without the guidance 00:46:04.219 --> 00:46:07.840 of my doctors. But I also was struggling. I needed 00:46:07.840 --> 00:46:11.679 people. At a time when I needed people, when 00:46:11.679 --> 00:46:13.420 I needed my peers, when I needed my friends the 00:46:13.420 --> 00:46:16.420 most, most of them had just completely dipped, 00:46:16.519 --> 00:46:19.820 and they were nowhere to be found. Many of them 00:46:19.820 --> 00:46:22.280 were treating me the same as the transgender 00:46:22.280 --> 00:46:23.820 community was. Many of them were telling me, 00:46:23.860 --> 00:46:25.860 like, this is your fault. Like, you need to own 00:46:25.860 --> 00:46:28.420 up. This is your responsibility, and you should 00:46:28.420 --> 00:46:30.960 have known better. And a lot of them also were 00:46:30.960 --> 00:46:33.800 just, like, they were... They let politics get 00:46:33.800 --> 00:46:36.880 in the way of our relationship. A lot of my friends 00:46:36.880 --> 00:46:39.960 throughout most of my high school career were 00:46:39.960 --> 00:46:42.840 fairly left -leaning, some more so than others. 00:46:43.599 --> 00:46:46.579 And as they saw me start to question some of 00:46:46.579 --> 00:46:49.599 the dogma, not only around transition, but also 00:46:49.599 --> 00:46:54.940 a lot of modern leftism in general, they took 00:46:54.940 --> 00:46:57.619 it personally. They took deep offense to it and 00:46:57.619 --> 00:47:01.269 eventually... they decided we're not going to 00:47:01.269 --> 00:47:03.050 be friends with you anymore. You can figure your 00:47:03.050 --> 00:47:05.210 own stuff out, and we're not going to have anything 00:47:05.210 --> 00:47:08.730 to do with it. I'm all about tolerance and acceptance, 00:47:08.909 --> 00:47:11.889 and people have a right to be happy, and everybody's 00:47:11.889 --> 00:47:13.730 on their own journey, and that we should have 00:47:13.730 --> 00:47:16.090 just compassion and acceptance for everybody. 00:47:16.170 --> 00:47:18.889 That's where I stand, and I wish we had more 00:47:18.889 --> 00:47:22.619 of that. As a young... Especially from the people 00:47:22.619 --> 00:47:25.559 who once claimed to be very compassionate and 00:47:25.559 --> 00:47:28.920 accepting. Exactly. They're nowhere to be found 00:47:28.920 --> 00:47:30.940 when people like me come out of the waterworks 00:47:30.940 --> 00:47:33.800 and talk about our own stories of being harmed 00:47:33.800 --> 00:47:37.119 by their very ideology. There's just no forgiveness 00:47:37.119 --> 00:47:40.880 for any of us. And unfortunately, what I experienced 00:47:40.880 --> 00:47:43.619 socially during the initial few phases of my 00:47:43.619 --> 00:47:46.400 detransition is pretty much universal amongst... 00:47:46.989 --> 00:47:49.809 Pretty much every detransitioner has experienced 00:47:49.809 --> 00:47:52.230 this to some extent within the transgender community, 00:47:52.389 --> 00:47:54.210 some of them even within their own family systems 00:47:54.210 --> 00:47:59.570 or with their friends. So, I mean, did you or 00:47:59.570 --> 00:48:01.809 did you feel like during your detransition feel 00:48:01.809 --> 00:48:06.429 lonely? Or did you still have a lot of close 00:48:06.429 --> 00:48:08.929 relationships? And you were lonely before, before 00:48:08.929 --> 00:48:10.710 you even started this entire journey. Is it a 00:48:10.710 --> 00:48:12.329 different kind of feeling or is it more of the 00:48:12.329 --> 00:48:18.230 same? I would almost say that I was back at square 00:48:18.230 --> 00:48:22.289 one, except it was so much worse. It was like 00:48:22.289 --> 00:48:25.170 the entire framework of my life up until that 00:48:25.170 --> 00:48:28.769 point was completely shattered. My identity for 00:48:28.769 --> 00:48:30.630 three years out of my life was just completely 00:48:30.630 --> 00:48:33.389 thrown out the window. And now this community 00:48:33.389 --> 00:48:35.170 that once supported me through it and my own 00:48:35.170 --> 00:48:38.849 friends who I had made at school were just gone. 00:48:39.090 --> 00:48:41.269 It was the absolute worst period of my life. 00:48:41.469 --> 00:48:44.630 And it's ironic that my doctors told my mom and 00:48:44.630 --> 00:48:48.730 dad, that not transitioning me was likely to 00:48:48.730 --> 00:48:51.969 lead to my suicide because the transition regret 00:48:51.969 --> 00:48:56.530 brought me closer to death than living normally 00:48:56.530 --> 00:49:00.329 and healthily ever has. I was very close to taking 00:49:00.329 --> 00:49:01.849 my own life during this point in time because 00:49:01.849 --> 00:49:03.269 I thought that there was nothing left for me. 00:49:03.369 --> 00:49:05.050 I thought that I wasn't even going to make it 00:49:05.050 --> 00:49:06.929 to 18 years old. I didn't think that I was ever 00:49:06.929 --> 00:49:08.969 going to live to adulthood or that if I did, 00:49:09.090 --> 00:49:13.429 that it would be enjoyable. And so it was... 00:49:13.710 --> 00:49:18.130 It was rock bottom for me, really. No 16-, 17-, 00:49:18.130 --> 00:49:20.030 18 -year -old should ever have to go through 00:49:20.030 --> 00:49:23.289 what I did. You felt super low at some point, 00:49:23.349 --> 00:49:25.789 I guess after your breasts were removed sometime 00:49:25.789 --> 00:49:29.329 thereafter, and you're like, oh, my God, what 00:49:29.329 --> 00:49:33.150 do I do now? It was a living nightmare. It really 00:49:33.150 --> 00:49:38.170 was. And I thought, like, I'm, especially with 00:49:38.170 --> 00:49:40.449 the loss of my breasts, I felt like a monster. 00:49:41.199 --> 00:49:43.500 I felt like I ripped something away from my own 00:49:43.500 --> 00:49:49.239 future children that I felt like I was just horrible 00:49:49.239 --> 00:49:51.599 for taking away that option from my children 00:49:51.599 --> 00:49:54.300 of being able to nourish them with what God gave 00:49:54.300 --> 00:49:57.239 me. And also, I hadn't even had a first kiss 00:49:57.239 --> 00:50:00.780 yet by that point in time. And yet I had this 00:50:00.780 --> 00:50:03.119 very integral part of female sexuality ripped 00:50:03.119 --> 00:50:05.800 away from me forever. And for years I thought, 00:50:05.860 --> 00:50:10.119 I'm going to be... there's no way that I'm ever 00:50:10.119 --> 00:50:13.639 going to be lovable. Unfortunately, that turned 00:50:13.639 --> 00:50:17.260 out that it turned out not to be true. Oh, but 00:50:17.260 --> 00:50:21.699 did you feel, I imagine shame must have been 00:50:21.699 --> 00:50:24.860 sort of a prevailing emotion. Like what have 00:50:24.860 --> 00:50:28.599 I done? Oh my gosh. Self -imposed. A lot of, 00:50:28.619 --> 00:50:31.239 yes, there was a lot of shame around the way 00:50:31.239 --> 00:50:33.239 that I looked, around the way that I sounded, 00:50:33.300 --> 00:50:35.739 around the choices that I had made as a consequence 00:50:35.739 --> 00:50:39.380 of all that. There was a lot of guilt about how 00:50:39.380 --> 00:50:42.500 this way of life was affecting not just me, but 00:50:42.500 --> 00:50:44.420 the people around me, and especially the pain 00:50:44.420 --> 00:50:48.559 that my mom and dad were going through. It became 00:50:48.559 --> 00:50:52.659 more and more clear to me as I got older. Yeah, 00:50:52.679 --> 00:50:56.320 it wasn't just about you. You were distributing 00:50:56.320 --> 00:50:58.300 this sort of energy into the universe as well, 00:50:58.420 --> 00:51:01.539 especially to your parents and your family. So 00:51:01.539 --> 00:51:04.239 when things got really bad, how did you keep 00:51:04.239 --> 00:51:06.639 your head on straight? What happened? How did 00:51:06.639 --> 00:51:10.550 you... How did you shift? I had a lot of good 00:51:10.550 --> 00:51:13.789 people around me. My mom and dad were there for 00:51:13.789 --> 00:51:18.150 me. They would give me comfort and reassurance, 00:51:18.309 --> 00:51:20.590 even in little ways, like the little things that 00:51:20.590 --> 00:51:22.429 they would do for me, just like making me breakfast 00:51:22.429 --> 00:51:26.730 and talking to me about it and talking through 00:51:26.730 --> 00:51:30.230 it. It meant so much to me, and it still means 00:51:30.230 --> 00:51:34.849 so much to me. But I also... Once again, I had 00:51:34.849 --> 00:51:36.570 turned to the internet because I didn't really 00:51:36.570 --> 00:51:38.610 have any other place to go with no friends at 00:51:38.610 --> 00:51:41.250 school. And eventually I had dropped out my senior 00:51:41.250 --> 00:51:43.289 year because of this, because I didn't really 00:51:43.289 --> 00:51:46.489 have, I had no friends. I was like, my school 00:51:46.489 --> 00:51:47.969 performance was failing because I was just in 00:51:47.969 --> 00:51:52.730 so much distress. But this time it was different. 00:51:54.570 --> 00:51:58.789 I wondered if there was a word for what I was 00:51:58.789 --> 00:52:01.460 going through. I put two and two together. I 00:52:01.460 --> 00:52:03.139 thought, well, if I went through a transition 00:52:03.139 --> 00:52:06.880 and I stopped, it must be a detransition, right? 00:52:07.519 --> 00:52:10.059 So I googled the word and it turned out this 00:52:10.059 --> 00:52:12.860 is a real word. And there's thousands of results. 00:52:12.960 --> 00:52:16.440 And wait a minute. There is a community of people 00:52:16.440 --> 00:52:21.059 on the internet who are just like me. But actually, 00:52:21.219 --> 00:52:25.019 it's not the superficial. Like, it turned out 00:52:25.019 --> 00:52:27.059 that they didn't really have the superficiality 00:52:27.059 --> 00:52:30.119 of the transgender community. These were people 00:52:30.119 --> 00:52:32.380 who were talking about real things, really getting 00:52:32.380 --> 00:52:34.719 down to the real issues of where these feelings 00:52:34.719 --> 00:52:37.739 first came from and also addressing the aftermath 00:52:37.739 --> 00:52:41.260 of the medical abuse that we'd all been through. 00:52:42.079 --> 00:52:44.059 All these people who I was speaking to at the 00:52:44.059 --> 00:52:46.679 time were adult men and women who had been through 00:52:46.679 --> 00:52:48.800 the process as adults and were further along 00:52:48.800 --> 00:52:50.760 in the process of stopping their transition. 00:52:51.000 --> 00:52:56.260 So they gave me kind of a marker for what I could 00:52:56.260 --> 00:53:00.619 do in order to heal from all this psychologically, 00:53:01.139 --> 00:53:06.179 spiritually, and physically. But they also gave 00:53:06.179 --> 00:53:12.960 me hope that there was a future for me. It felt 00:53:12.960 --> 00:53:15.860 like something was missing, though, still. This 00:53:15.860 --> 00:53:18.400 is a group of people who I deeply cared for. 00:53:19.420 --> 00:53:23.659 And the conversation around these matters in 00:53:23.659 --> 00:53:25.679 the media was really starting to rapidly shift. 00:53:26.980 --> 00:53:30.099 And yet, there wasn't really anybody that was 00:53:30.099 --> 00:53:32.840 nearly as young as I was in this community or 00:53:32.840 --> 00:53:35.460 being involved in the conversation. And it became 00:53:35.460 --> 00:53:38.559 more and more clear to me, I'm in the perfect 00:53:38.559 --> 00:53:45.219 position. to cause a major shift in this. I'm 00:53:45.219 --> 00:53:48.980 young. At the time, I was still 17. I was still 00:53:48.980 --> 00:53:52.500 a child. And I'd also been through it at a very 00:53:52.500 --> 00:53:54.619 early age, much earlier than these other people 00:53:54.619 --> 00:53:57.380 who were publicly speaking out were. And I thought, 00:53:57.460 --> 00:54:01.960 what better opportunity than to use the pain 00:54:01.960 --> 00:54:04.960 that me and my family went through? to help not 00:54:04.960 --> 00:54:06.800 only this community of other people, but to help 00:54:06.800 --> 00:54:09.480 the public understand this issue at large, what 00:54:09.480 --> 00:54:12.619 is happening in our communities, what's happening 00:54:12.619 --> 00:54:17.440 to our families and the institutional corruption 00:54:17.440 --> 00:54:21.739 that's happening in our healthcare system. I 00:54:21.739 --> 00:54:27.659 can use this opportunity to create a better world. 00:54:28.659 --> 00:54:31.460 Amazing. You called it a mistake earlier, but... 00:54:31.789 --> 00:54:33.869 I don't believe in mistakes. I think everything 00:54:33.869 --> 00:54:36.829 is, there's a divine purpose for it, reason for 00:54:36.829 --> 00:54:40.809 everything. I think that God allowed me to go 00:54:40.809 --> 00:54:45.090 through this, not because he wanted me to suffer, 00:54:45.230 --> 00:54:49.130 not because he thought that I deserved it, but 00:54:49.130 --> 00:54:50.929 because he knew that I could get through it. 00:54:50.929 --> 00:54:52.710 He could handle it. And he knew that I could 00:54:52.710 --> 00:54:59.030 use it to help others in need. And correct me 00:54:59.030 --> 00:55:00.570 if I'm wrong, but it sounds like your parents. 00:55:01.639 --> 00:55:04.739 And unwavering love and support the entire distance. 00:55:05.940 --> 00:55:08.840 All of it. Absolutely. Absolutely. My mom and 00:55:08.840 --> 00:55:12.119 dad, they love me to bits. They've always loved 00:55:12.119 --> 00:55:13.980 me. They have always wanted the best for me. 00:55:14.460 --> 00:55:16.679 And they're very supportive and very, very proud 00:55:16.679 --> 00:55:19.579 of me now. You know, your story is a little bit 00:55:19.579 --> 00:55:21.179 different from most others that are on the show 00:55:21.179 --> 00:55:24.280 because most of the people on the show... They 00:55:24.280 --> 00:55:28.460 were canceled unfairly with mistruths and stuff 00:55:28.460 --> 00:55:30.619 like that. And almost all of them are like, you 00:55:30.619 --> 00:55:32.820 have to fight, fight, fight. Yours is a little 00:55:32.820 --> 00:55:35.800 bit different. You might have been anointed because 00:55:35.800 --> 00:55:39.860 you could be a facilitator of change. And God 00:55:39.860 --> 00:55:41.780 led you on this journey so that you can actually 00:55:41.780 --> 00:55:46.019 make change in the world. And so at what point 00:55:46.019 --> 00:55:49.199 did you become, you thrust out there, you realize 00:55:49.199 --> 00:55:52.719 this. And then some opportunity happened for 00:55:52.719 --> 00:55:55.380 you to publicly speak, or what did that look 00:55:55.380 --> 00:56:00.260 like? I chose to speak out, actually. I decided, 00:56:00.559 --> 00:56:02.820 I mean, I'd been thinking about it from pretty 00:56:02.820 --> 00:56:05.179 early on in the detransition process, but I knew, 00:56:05.219 --> 00:56:09.179 like, if I want to go out to the public and speak 00:56:09.179 --> 00:56:12.320 about this very intimate thing, especially in 00:56:12.320 --> 00:56:14.800 potentially very contentious, in a very contentious 00:56:14.800 --> 00:56:18.269 political environment. I have to get myself together 00:56:18.269 --> 00:56:20.969 first. I have to heal a little bit before I'm 00:56:20.969 --> 00:56:24.550 ready to do that. And once the time came, it 00:56:24.550 --> 00:56:29.730 was about, I think, spring of 2022 that I made, 00:56:29.829 --> 00:56:33.369 I decided to make an account on X back when it 00:56:33.369 --> 00:56:35.030 was still called Twitter, back before the bird 00:56:35.030 --> 00:56:37.570 got freed out of the cage and it became a free 00:56:37.570 --> 00:56:41.070 speech platform. So I think... I actually had 00:56:41.070 --> 00:56:46.409 been temporarily banned a few times in the pre 00:56:46.409 --> 00:56:51.050 -Musk Twitter administration, but I decided I'm 00:56:51.050 --> 00:56:53.190 just going to throw everything out there. Right 00:56:53.190 --> 00:56:57.190 now, I don't really have much to lose. I'm just 00:56:57.190 --> 00:57:00.610 out of high school, and I'm going to tell my 00:57:00.610 --> 00:57:03.809 story to the world. And it started with just 00:57:03.809 --> 00:57:07.010 a few posts on Twitter, and then all of a sudden, 00:57:07.090 --> 00:57:11.000 almost overnight, thousands of followers just 00:57:11.000 --> 00:57:14.780 flooding in. J .K. Rowling was one of the first 00:57:14.780 --> 00:57:16.840 ones that was like, okay, so I had this like 00:57:16.840 --> 00:57:18.960 huge children's book author following me. What 00:57:18.960 --> 00:57:22.440 is going on? And then media started reaching 00:57:22.440 --> 00:57:25.039 out to me. I started having reporters asking 00:57:25.039 --> 00:57:28.900 like, can we talk to you? Can we call you about 00:57:28.900 --> 00:57:32.239 your story so I can cover it? And eventually 00:57:32.239 --> 00:57:35.239 I got asked to start speaking on legislation 00:57:35.239 --> 00:57:38.630 across the country. to help protect children. 00:57:39.369 --> 00:57:44.230 And I had never thought before at all about doing 00:57:44.230 --> 00:57:47.269 public speaking of any sort because I was like 00:57:47.269 --> 00:57:49.889 the shy kid in school. I was quiet. I spent a 00:57:49.889 --> 00:57:52.550 lot of my time when I wasn't with my friends 00:57:52.550 --> 00:57:56.190 or with people I liked at school just drawing 00:57:56.190 --> 00:57:59.650 or playing video games in my off time. So it 00:57:59.650 --> 00:58:04.280 was quite the jump. to be doing all that. And 00:58:04.280 --> 00:58:06.360 my mom and dad, of course, were very uneasy about 00:58:06.360 --> 00:58:09.840 it because I was a 17 -year -old girl and I had 00:58:09.840 --> 00:58:11.480 never really been out in the world, especially 00:58:11.480 --> 00:58:14.820 without them before. And at first they were like, 00:58:14.900 --> 00:58:18.840 no, we are not going to send you into that kind 00:58:18.840 --> 00:58:20.820 of environment. We are not going to have you 00:58:20.820 --> 00:58:25.940 be that far away from us. And we're not comfortable 00:58:25.940 --> 00:58:29.880 with that. And it took a bit of convincing, but 00:58:29.880 --> 00:58:33.320 I'm so grateful. That they ended up saying yes, 00:58:33.460 --> 00:58:35.519 because it ended up being a very transformative 00:58:35.519 --> 00:58:40.260 journey for me personally. And also like it's 00:58:40.260 --> 00:58:44.800 cause when, because of the fact that they said 00:58:44.800 --> 00:58:48.800 yes to me doing this, there's been a lot of change 00:58:48.800 --> 00:58:52.400 in our culture in regards to this issue and so 00:58:52.400 --> 00:58:55.300 much progress that's been made in just a matter 00:58:55.300 --> 00:58:58.000 of a few years. Because of you. Again, very grateful 00:58:58.000 --> 00:59:00.909 to them. You can take some pride in that. Yeah, 00:59:01.030 --> 00:59:05.070 I mean, of course, it's the voices like mine 00:59:05.070 --> 00:59:07.829 of men and women who have been personally harmed 00:59:07.829 --> 00:59:09.889 in some way, either directly by the procedures 00:59:09.889 --> 00:59:11.849 or the parents or the families that have been 00:59:11.849 --> 00:59:16.969 ripped apart by this. But also, I really owe 00:59:16.969 --> 00:59:18.690 it to my mom and dad for letting me do this. 00:59:19.610 --> 00:59:22.769 So where do you stand now on the level of peace 00:59:22.769 --> 00:59:28.599 in your heart? Are you fully healed? I mean, 00:59:28.679 --> 00:59:32.519 I think the healing journey is going to be years 00:59:32.519 --> 00:59:35.460 long, maybe decades long, or even lifelong. And 00:59:35.460 --> 00:59:39.500 there are days I have where it's harder than 00:59:39.500 --> 00:59:43.920 others. There are days I have when the progress 00:59:43.920 --> 00:59:48.639 regresses, when I have to cry, when I have to 00:59:48.639 --> 00:59:51.980 be upset in order to process everything. But 00:59:51.980 --> 00:59:56.579 I'm so much further along then. I'm so much further 00:59:56.579 --> 00:59:58.940 along now than I was then, especially in those 00:59:58.940 --> 01:00:02.179 days when I was running away from reality and 01:00:02.179 --> 01:00:04.619 when I was living a lie, because that's exactly 01:00:04.619 --> 01:00:06.900 what transgenderism comes down to. It is one 01:00:06.900 --> 01:00:13.480 big lie. There is no way that people can change 01:00:13.480 --> 01:00:18.500 their sex. It doesn't matter what drugs, it doesn't 01:00:18.500 --> 01:00:20.960 matter what surgeries, it doesn't matter what 01:00:20.960 --> 01:00:23.480 body parts you take on or you take off of or 01:00:23.480 --> 01:00:26.599 put on a person. You are never going to change 01:00:26.599 --> 01:00:29.139 something that is determined at conception by 01:00:29.139 --> 01:00:32.579 God. And in trying to do so, you're going to 01:00:32.579 --> 01:00:36.980 cause great destruction in your own life and 01:00:36.980 --> 01:00:39.519 the lives of people around you. It's best to 01:00:39.519 --> 01:00:43.139 orient yourself in reality and to deal with the 01:00:43.139 --> 01:00:45.219 heart of these issues, where they really stem 01:00:45.219 --> 01:00:48.940 from, because these people, where their suffering 01:00:48.940 --> 01:00:51.300 is coming from. It's not some genetic anomaly. 01:00:51.539 --> 01:00:55.059 It's not their brains or some part of them somehow 01:00:55.059 --> 01:00:58.800 being of the opposite sex. These are people who 01:00:58.800 --> 01:01:04.019 are struggling because they have deep -seated 01:01:04.019 --> 01:01:10.139 trauma. Many of them have broken relationships 01:01:10.139 --> 01:01:13.719 with their families. Many of them have been hurt. 01:01:14.409 --> 01:01:16.469 at some point in their childhood in many different 01:01:16.469 --> 01:01:19.349 ways and many of them are people who have learning 01:01:19.349 --> 01:01:22.570 disabilities and they're so naturally growing 01:01:22.570 --> 01:01:26.750 up and figuring out figuring themselves out and 01:01:26.750 --> 01:01:28.969 and their identity is going to be much more difficult 01:01:28.969 --> 01:01:33.230 and what these people deserve what these children 01:01:33.230 --> 01:01:37.090 like little girl who i once was deserve is to 01:01:37.090 --> 01:01:41.469 be told the way that you were made was not a 01:01:41.469 --> 01:01:44.559 mistake Because you were made in God's image 01:01:44.559 --> 01:01:46.800 and he does not mistakes. You are beautiful the 01:01:46.800 --> 01:01:50.099 way that you are. You are unique. And we're going 01:01:50.099 --> 01:01:53.519 to help you through this. That's ultimately what, 01:01:53.599 --> 01:01:58.960 that's why I give my testimony. Because I think 01:01:58.960 --> 01:02:04.199 that transgender people, that people struggling 01:02:04.199 --> 01:02:08.199 with this part of their identity deserve so much 01:02:08.199 --> 01:02:10.960 better than what children like me were given. 01:02:11.990 --> 01:02:19.050 I want to ensure a better world that my children 01:02:19.050 --> 01:02:21.550 will grow up in one day. Are people out there 01:02:21.550 --> 01:02:24.989 now that think that Chloe Cole is dangerous? 01:02:28.690 --> 01:02:31.730 There's a few people. There are a few people 01:02:31.730 --> 01:02:37.010 who think that this 5 '3", 120 -pound young woman 01:02:37.010 --> 01:02:41.340 speaking out about reality is... is a danger 01:02:41.340 --> 01:02:48.780 and a menace to society. And, I mean, the moment 01:02:48.780 --> 01:02:56.199 that I... It's clear that, I mean, they saw me 01:02:56.199 --> 01:02:57.980 as a threat the moment that I detranished and 01:02:57.980 --> 01:03:00.019 how they react to me and how they still react 01:03:00.019 --> 01:03:02.480 to me to this day. And where that really comes 01:03:02.480 --> 01:03:04.380 from, I mean, especially for the transgender 01:03:04.380 --> 01:03:07.000 people, it comes from a place of... insecurity 01:03:07.000 --> 01:03:13.559 around their own transgender status. Stories 01:03:13.559 --> 01:03:16.860 like mine shed light on the fact that this, again, 01:03:17.019 --> 01:03:21.519 is a complete scam. This is something that causes 01:03:21.519 --> 01:03:27.000 long -term damage, and there's no real basis 01:03:27.000 --> 01:03:31.460 to it. And so it makes them face the uncomfortable 01:03:31.460 --> 01:03:36.409 question of, well, so why am I doing this? What's 01:03:36.409 --> 01:03:39.170 the difference between me and somebody who regrets 01:03:39.170 --> 01:03:41.469 their transition? Is it really just feelings? 01:03:42.210 --> 01:03:47.110 Obviously, it can't just be that. And this is 01:03:47.110 --> 01:03:50.789 something that has a lot of money tied to it, 01:03:50.829 --> 01:03:54.710 especially with the surgeries. And there are 01:03:54.710 --> 01:03:57.309 a lot of interest groups that have made great 01:03:57.309 --> 01:04:01.510 use of this ideology. And the left... has made 01:04:01.510 --> 01:04:03.849 this into a human rights issue. And so when there's 01:04:03.849 --> 01:04:05.409 so many people out there being convinced that 01:04:05.409 --> 01:04:08.630 the lives of transgender people are at stake, 01:04:08.730 --> 01:04:11.190 that children are having life -saving care threatened, 01:04:11.449 --> 01:04:14.969 I mean, what wouldn't they do? They'd think that 01:04:14.969 --> 01:04:20.449 people like me are a monster if... They would 01:04:20.449 --> 01:04:22.369 think that people like me are a monster for trying 01:04:22.369 --> 01:04:28.090 to take this away. Yeah. You know, thank you 01:04:28.090 --> 01:04:30.829 for sharing your story. Chloe, it's like a delight 01:04:30.829 --> 01:04:34.909 to meet you. And I can see why you've been thrust 01:04:34.909 --> 01:04:38.550 to the center of this topic because you're extraordinarily 01:04:38.550 --> 01:04:42.869 bright and articulate. And your story, as it 01:04:42.869 --> 01:04:44.769 continues to evolve, I'm sure we're going to 01:04:44.769 --> 01:04:47.349 hear even more from you in the coming years and 01:04:47.349 --> 01:04:49.889 decades. And I thank you for coming on the show 01:04:49.889 --> 01:04:52.309 and being so vulnerable and sharing everything 01:04:52.309 --> 01:04:55.150 you've got. And good luck with your journey as 01:04:55.150 --> 01:04:59.429 your life unfolds. Thank you so much. Thank you 01:04:59.429 --> 01:05:01.849 for having me on the show and for giving me the 01:05:01.849 --> 01:05:04.170 space to talk about this issue in my own personal 01:05:04.170 --> 01:05:06.630 experience. You got it. Thank you so much.