Hi, Alan. Hello. Welcome to Think Visual with
Shapeshifters. The tables have turned today.
You are the interviewee. This is all strangely
familiar. Yes, yes. I should be wearing that
T -shirt. Damn it. What is this? I specifically
asked you not to so that there's a bit of differentiation
today because usually you're the host for the
first few ones you've been the host. Yes, but
I think it also puts you in the mindset of you're
not the one asking questions today. We'll see
about that. Okay, are we going to include all
of that? Quite possibly. Why not? Maybe, yeah.
okay um give people a glimpse into what's actually
going on behind the scenes yeah we all we seem
all friendly and nice and happy and actually
we're crazy crazy it's a bit of a play yes um
okay well can you please start by telling us
a little bit about your origin story i think
everyone knows you because you're the face of
think visual We do the meetups. We bring other
speakers. We've been doing this podcast series.
But I think people are always curious about you
and they can see the incredible talent and superpower
that you have. And I think it would be great
to give them a little bit of a glimpse of where
that comes from. Okay. A little bit of context.
Okay. Where do I begin? I think... Well, for
me, I would say it genuinely begins in my childhood
because I've kind of always known that I'm a
visual person, always. So I recognized early
on that I... I guess I kind of think differently.
I recall probably some of my earliest memories
of my teachers thinking that something was wrong
with me. So I was schooled in the 80s. And even
in kindergarten, I remember my teachers, well,
my teacher in particular, she constantly told
me to stop drawing. And I guess, you know, in
kindy, I don't exactly possess the words to explain
that. I'm not just drawing anything and that
some part of what I was doing was probably connected
to what was going on. So I kind of always knew
that I am a visual person. And as I started to
grow up, I think it became a bit more of a conscious
act slowly through school. And it was kind of
hard going at the time because, again, it was
being schooled in the 80s. Seeing somebody approach
work in an illustrative manner was a little bit
weird for my teachers, and some took it better
than others. Some people encouraged me and said,
this is great, I can see that this is... I think
in year one, my teacher, she was instrumental
to me. following the path of using visual thinking
and I think she could see then clearly that there
was a some kind of connection in my drawings
it wasn't just random doodles and even though
there was a lot of random doodles there was a
lot but not all of it was random so I mean I
draw you know superheroes werewolves monsters
of all kinds dinosaurs but there was also parts
of the page that were dedicated to what was being
said and what was happening so yeah i was going
to ask about that because when you say i'm a
visual person especially as a kid like i think
we all say we're visual or a lot of people say
they're visual people um and also almost all
kids draw and doodle all the time so what what
made you actually different like was there anything
that you felt was different definitely i think
um the way i describe it is that when people
would speak i would immediately get very detailed
crisp images in my mind of what it is they were
talking about so i think an example would be
if someone said the word dog I wouldn't just
get a picture of any random dog. I would get
all the pictures of all the dogs that I'd ever
seen. And they all start to kind of cram my head
full of things. And I think that was very hard
to initially process. And it made things like
spelling slow for me. So it's not that I was
dyslexic. And some of the teachers were like,
oh, Alan's learning progress is rather slow in
this. But then other teachers were saying there's
a bit of a contrast because they can see that
I have some initial problems with dictation,
that exercise where the teachers are kind of
speaking out the words and I'm trying to spell
it out. I struggled immensely with that. But
then again, I was reading Narnia when I was seven
or eight years old and no problem reading through
any of those books. I loved reading those books
because my mind would create this rich imagery,
three -dimensional worlds that I could actually
see and experience. So I guess that was a little
bit different. I could see everything that was
being said to me. with no delay like it would
instantly occur and it would be kind of confusing
because i didn't know exactly what i was supposed
to do with it and i i thought that everyone thought
the same way and in fact actually i think that
i believe that everyone also i believe that everyone
thinks the same way up until recently i remember
we were chatting and i was like you see see it
like that right and you're saying no you don't
see it see that things that way so no um Yeah,
so it's kind of like rich imagery that's in my
mind and it took purposeful consideration and
training and encouragement for me to know that,
okay, I don't need everything. I just need one
image or two. Wow. That must have taken a lot
of practice and training. Yeah, it took me all
of primary school, all of high school. to get
it right. And even throughout high school, I
didn't get it right. It was still kind of sporadic
bursts. There was a bit more structure, you know.
But then when I went to fine arts school, studied
fine arts at Sydney College of the Arts for a
year, largely what we were doing was creating
visual things. And it was helpful, but... I think
my mind was seeking more structure. And then
when I heard about Enmore School of Design, and
I went there, the things that they were teaching
me about composition, about layout, how to use
typography, how to use color, and it just instantly
made sense to me. I said, oh, this is what I've
been missing. It's like suddenly somebody gave
me a toolkit and said, these are some of the
tools that you need. And all of the crazy stuff
that goes on in your mind, can be made a little
easier to manage or can be tempered if you use
these tools. And then from there, it became so
much smoother for me. I was like, oh, there's
this thing called page layouts. And I can now
figure out where to place things on a page. And
then when I eventually went to the film school
to study, it seemed like everything flowed even
more smoothly because there they were specifically
looking at visual storytelling. So, you know,
as a filmmaker, you are trained to look for and
craft imagery that usually conveys highly complex
story, concepts, emotions. You know, if you take
any great film and you analyze them frame by
frame, you can see so much information packed
into one moment, into one second. There's just
so many things happening. And film school really
helped me then kind of put it all together in
a way that was very, I guess, palatable in a
way and accessible. More people could understand
what I was talking about. That's amazing. Actually,
you're talking about a, type of neurodivergence
right we recently we've been talking a little
bit more recently about aphantasia and hyperphantasia
and all that you've described in your experience
it's a type of neurodivergence is that correct
and yeah let's talk a little bit about that yeah
so um i i've known about aphantasia for a good
many years actually now it's probably probably
um probably since the days of design college
where you and I were starting to work together
I first came across it then this would have been
20 around the 2014 -2015 period so I've I think
I came across it then and I'd never I'd never
given that any thought before like I just assumed
that everybody could see things the way I was
seeing things and then when I heard that there
was this condition where People did not have
the ability to see with their mind's eye. I was
really surprised. I went, wow, there's different
ways. And I guess it should have been obvious
to me all this time because, of course, we don't
all think alike. Thinking is a deeply personal
activity, right? And especially it was your experience
in school. Oh, yeah. Because you were thinking
basically different than all the other kids.
I think I just... thought that I was something
was wrong as a kid or you know that maybe maybe
I was struggling I don't know I just learned
in a way that was inefficient perhaps and when
I found out about aphantasia was kind of interesting
but aphantasia kind of opened my eyes because
I was like wow there's this way of thinking that
is so opposite of what I'm seeing and actually
only in recent years did I find out about hyperphantasia
like in the last two years and I thought what's
this and when I read about hyperphantasia something
suddenly clicked I suddenly realized that oh
I think this is the thing that I've been experiencing
my whole life which is you know where you get
very rich imagery in your head so rich sometimes
that it looks like it's right there um yeah so
it was it was kind of weird and i i um as i said
i only recently found out about it but um hyperphantasia
is an aphantasia are two ends of a spectrum of
let's call it visual thinking, right? So one
end you get the most extreme vivid visualizations.
The other end you get nothing at all. And so
I'm on this, I don't know, I'm sure within hyperphantasia
there's other extremes, but I'm on the hyperphantasia
side of things as in. I get rich imagery. It's
also context and subject specific. So some things
give me more, some things give me less. It depends
on familiarity. But yeah, it's an interesting
neurodiverse way of thinking. It's not a disability.
It's just a neurodiverse way of thinking. It's
literally different ways of mental processing.
Yeah, and when you were talking about you thought
at school that something was wrong with you,
it's actually more that the system, something
was wrong with the system because it's just designed
for one type of learner. Yeah. And so, yeah,
that's unfortunate, but it sounds like you found
different ways to thrive and you had the right
support. Yeah, yeah, I definitely did. I've had
good voices. My parents were both teachers and
they... I guess they knew that I wasn't dumb.
They used to always say to me, hey, look, if
you learn differently, you've got to find the
way you learn and then learn that way and then
work that way. You can't just stay neutral and
accept things the way they are. Be active. And
I guess those words, my mom and dad's words always
stayed in my head, be active. Seek for what it
is that appeals to you, that helps you. And that
makes a lot of sense. I mean, we're always talking
about superpowers, and you've got to find what's
your strength and then just leverage that. So
you studied filmmaking, and then how did you
get here? I guess through strange and... unexpected
means i i think um the filmmaking side of things
is um a bit more direct in a way like okay so
if you if you follow my trajectory drawing all
through school then in uni doing fine arts for
a year pretty predictable right then going to
do graphic design and studying visual design
super helpful uh because it was like mastery
of elements then from studying graphic design
to doing filmmaking which was like a the one
visual craft that includes all other visual crafts
right because you're using spatial you're using
you're using light you're using so many different
elements as well as 2d things yeah but from film
school I spent most of my creative career in
filmmaking probably 12 years of my creative career
as an independent filmmaker I've worked on commercials
I worked on feature films music videos lots and
lots of different things just ads and fun creative
stuff and all kinds of things but One thing that
was interesting is that all throughout my creative
career, I was also teaching. I came across this
ad years and years ago, which was to teach at
a... a small design college, and it was to teach
the things that I know really well, which is
filmmaking and illustration and visual design.
I was like, I know this quite well. I can definitely
do this. And they were after somebody who had
industry experience. Back then it was Raffles
KVB. And I went to teach there and I had a great
relationship with the people who were coordinating
the courses and the program directors. And I
guess they liked some of the stuff that I was
doing there. And all through that time there
was this nice tension between what I know to
do intrinsically And then how to explain it to
others in a way that is repeatable. And I got
lots of practice doing that. And it was towards
the apex of that time that I got the opportunity
to lead a design college. And that's when I got
to work with you. And, you know, that was a lot
of fun. We had two good years together and taught
lots of, you know, great students and build and
design courses that we were very proud of. And
then when that part, when that kind of chapter
came to a close, I had this complete, almost
like a complete blank canvas of going anywhere.
As I said, the closing period of that time, I
was introduced into design consulting through
you. I met people at Tobias. And then the time
at Tobias that I spent, I was focusing on strategic
design consulting through the lens of a visual
communication practitioner. And I got to utilize
my... filmmaking skills. I could utilize my live
drawing skills, which I had honed, weirdly enough,
through teaching others. I mean, I guess it's
kind of predictable in a way, because when we're
teaching illustration, I have to annotate and
illustrate what it is that I'm talking about.
So I would always find myself drawing concepts.
And the live drawing part was... part and parcel
with the teaching and teaching I spent a long
time doing. So at Tobias, I did the teaching
bit. I did the filmmaking bit. I got to exercise
my design mind on many different projects to
think about things in different ways. And it
was at the end of that time that I realized that
this was something that I could that i could
offer this it was like the sum total of all the
things that i'd ever worked on had now given
me um a unique opportunity to be able to help
organizations and people in a in a way that is
unlike anything else and that's that's um that's
i guess how we um started shape shifters i mean
technically we started shape shifters while we
were actually teaching together but you know
to help people in this way that we're doing now
I think it's it came towards the end of my time
consulting came towards the end of your time
as a visual communication lead you know at the
college that you were teaching at and it was
like the the sum total of okay apply all this
educational knowledge that we have all this consulting
and all this crazy creative industry stuff. And
we can help people in ways that are truly unique
and innovative. Yeah, that's how I got here.
I have to say, Alan, every time I've heard this,
I've heard your journey and your story so many
times. And every time I listen to it, it's just
very inspiring. And I'm in awe because it's just
so rich. you can you can really tell that all
of that like every single part of um your journey
led to this like it was it kind of formed you
bit by bit yeah formed your thinking formed your
approach and now what we do today at shapeshifters
it feels like it's it's really the culmination
of all of it and i feel like a lot of our a lot
of our work stands out because because of the
combination of that history that you have you
I think also if I am to describe you in one word,
it would be storyteller. It wouldn't be illustrator.
It would be more storyteller. And it's because
no matter what medium, even when you're telling
a story, just by words, it's very rich in imagery,
in emotion. You're just a very good storyteller.
And when you combine that with your visual, skills
it's very powerful and i guess i guess what i
want to know is based on all of like all of your
that crazy visual journey that you went through
to really understand who you are as a as a visual
thinker how do how do you use it today and how
does what we do at Shapeshifters really reflect
that. That's a great question. How I use visual
thinking today is evolved, has definitely evolved
a lot, a lot over time. I think I've become comfortable
with knowing that my way of thinking can be of
great benefit. So I think if you see me drawing,
I'm thinking, and I'm kind of drawing all the
time. So in conversations, at conferences, for
myself, for other people, it's reflexive. So
I guess the way I use it now is more purposeful.
I need it myself. I don't often draw, I think,
because I want to show others. My sketchbooks
and my iPad, it's just littered with sketches
because it's just how I think. I need to get
the ideas from my mind out so that I can see
and understand what it is that's kind of going
on. I can process my thoughts. It's like a Part
of my thinking must happen externally. You also
mentioned that it's not as appealing and amazing
as it sounds. Yeah, look, I mean, hyperphantasia,
I think, with any extremes, there are benefits
and then there are challenges. I think the benefits
are... I feel like there's basically nothing
that I hear that doesn't produce visuals in my
mind. There's always visuals. And the richness
or the lack of richness is dependent on the context
and emotional state and lots of other things
too. But I always have visuals. The challenges
are trying to manage what goes on in my mind
and also You know, there are certain things that
are harder for me to, I guess, let go of in some
way. So extremely emotional moments, traumas,
they're very vivid in my mind. I can hear the
sounds and I can see so richly. It's kind of,
you know, in some ways it's kind of hard to shake
off. active work so i can't just kind of let
it be i actually have to think about it intentionally
and find ways to process the the thoughts in
my mind it's you know it's also like um i think
i mentioned this to you before as a filmmaker
um whenever i was thinking about stories and
narratives um if i didn't start writing them
out and if i didn't film them they would gnaw
at my mind constantly, as in there's this constant
pressure on my brain. It was like if they didn't
come out on paper or on film, they would eat
me up alive in some way. So sometimes it can
be overwhelming. But I guess that's what it kind
of comes with the territory of being able to
see things with extreme vividness. I mean, the
benefits are I can kind of prototype anything.
on the spot, like really, really quickly. But
the downsides are sometimes it's too much. So
I guess over the years, I've just learned to
kind of balance that. But it does make our work
at ShapeShift is really different because you
process things visually too, slightly different
than me. And I think that the different ways
that we do that makes our work really special
because When people work with us, there's a lot
of transparency. It's open. You can see what's
going on. I'm not hiding behind screens. You
are literally seeing my thoughts and your conversation
meld together in front of your eyes with nothing
to hide. It builds trust. It builds connection
with people. It also saves time. You're referring
to the co -design approach that we use where
we're basically live sketching, or you're usually
live sketching, I'm talking, with clients so
that we can get to the results quicker. I think
so. I mean, one thing that I'd love people to
know is that it can work both ways. I can do
the question asking and you can do the sketching.
I think the reason we kind of typically go with
that is it's the lowest point of resistance.
It's quite easy. You're very inquisitive and
you love to ask questions. And I'm very illustrative
because I think that way. So it's very natural
that we just go, okay, default is that. But we
can comfortably swap. So yes, I'm thinking about
the co -design, but I'm also thinking about whenever
we communicate and work with people, even if
it's not during a co -design session, the visuals
that we're creating, they're an extension of
the conversations and the trust that we've built.
Rarely do I feel like there's any surprises.
It's not that people aren't surprised with...
the things it's more like they did not see something
that they didn't um help or have a hand in creating
yeah it's they're we're literally bringing them
along on the journey because they can see the
very very roughest sketch but it's actually their
ideas coming on paper so it's very personal for
them so they they're they're right there from
the beginning and i think the the the finesse
the the finish that we we create it's It's a
nice thing that we bring because of the experience
that we have. But it's actually not as valuable
as the part where we are actually able to bring
people along together and do things together
because it makes it so much more clear. I think
clarity is the really important part. are clear
about what it is that they're getting and what
it is that they're designing because it's literally
appearing right before their eyes and you and
i have talked about this a lot um we because
of our background in you know consulting and
education and design like all of these different
things and visual communication and storytelling
we've talked about what what is it that we actually
do Because it's not just visual thinking where
we just create images in real time. There's a
little bit more. And I'm talking about, obviously,
the services that we offer at Shapeshifters.
Maybe really quickly, why do we call ourselves
communication design? What we do is communication
design. And specifically, I suppose we've been
angling a little bit towards strategic communication.
And why do we call it that? So another good question.
If you can picture the iceberg diagram, where
there's the tip of the iceberg and everyone sees
the fact that we illustrate the fact that we're
visual thinkers, that's right at the very, very
top. It's the things that are easily identifiable
as us. I think the thing that goes underneath,
the massiveness of what happens underneath is
our rich understanding of design and the design
process, our understanding that strategy is something
that happens over a period of time. It's not
something that... you know, is accidental or
you hope works away. It's very intentional. And
we know how to work intentionally towards things.
So we understand strategy. We understand design.
And the communication part of it, we understand
that intimately well because that's our background.
You know, we are great at all forms of communication.
So I think we can speak. Sure. We can create
illustrations, definitely. But we also can craft
beautiful videos. We can wireframe and prototype.
There's almost no way of, no form of communication
that we are not well versed in. We also write
copy for many of our clients as well. Because
part of my background is writing as well. written
screenplays, worked as a script editor. It's
part and parcel with all of the creative industries
that we've worked in, and we bring all of that
richness. I think between you and me together,
there's over 30 years. like 35 almost 40 years
worth of creative experience that we bring to
a table and that's that's quite a lot that's
quite unique not easily replicable yeah i was
thinking is this starting to sound a bit too
much like marketing marketing we're promoting
what we do but really because i actually think
that this is really worth talking about because
not a lot of people really see the value of it
and people sometimes look at what we do or come
up to you at an event and are like wow how did
you do that you know and it's true it's kind
of it's a little bit like magic what you create
at an event right there on the spot but the other
part of it is when we're talking to a business
or a team and then we hear the struggles they're
they're having Usually a lot of times it's because
there's miscommunication and a lot of times we
immediately can see that that miscommunication
can be resolved pretty easily through visual
communication because it's the way that we communicate
intuitively with each other, but also it kind
of removes barriers, right? It simplifies. And
now I'm starting to sound a bit like jargon.
It's no accident that it's visuals that we use.
Because here's the thing. My words can easily
be misconstrued. You can understand it one way.
Someone else can understand it a completely different
way. And that's because our relationship with
words is different than our relationship with
imagery. With words... people can switch off,
ignore, they can skip parts that they can often
say, oh, I didn't hear that part. I didn't hear
it like that. With images, we don't have any
filters on our, you know, our eyes are actually
the filters for our minds and they don't filter
anything. They actually, so when we walk around,
like we walk around with our eyes open and do
our thing, we're taking in like billions and
billions of bits of information. instantaneously
without us even knowing. And so if you use visuals
to communicate, you're already using something
that can immediately cut through and get into
the mind rapidly. But the other thing is we're
using it in a way because we understand that
the craft of visual communication allows us to
make messages stand out and stick to the mind
so they can be retained in your memory for much
longer than, you know, if you said something,
it's so easy to forget. Yeah. Okay. Well, we're
coming to almost the end of our conversation,
but I wanted to ask you, you mentioned before,
let's call Fantasia and Hyperfantasia and Afantasia
the visual thinking kind of. Do you think that's
actually the case, or is there a little bit of
a differentiation? Because in my head, the minds
are, and we know some people who have aphantasia
and are amazing sketchnoters and visual thinkers.
What's the difference, and can someone grow in
visual thinking even if they don't think as vividly
as you do? Oh, yeah. Vivid as my mind is, if
I sketch things down, I have a much better understanding
than when I just leave it in my head. Even me.
And I can see things quite vividly. So whether
you have aphantasia or fantasia or hyperphantasia,
you can hone your ability to think visually.
If you apply it, in the physical sense. There's
something very special that happens when you
pick up a pen and you write things and sketch
things out on a piece of paper. The paper itself
kind of speaks back to you. So there's this unique
relationship that happens. And also the other
thing is the physical act of sketching activates
different parts of the brain that do not become
active. If you're typing things out, that part
of the brain is not active. Specifically, it's
called the parietal lobe. So when you're sketching,
the parietal lobe is activated, and it's the
language center of your mind. It's the cognition
part of your mind. So you are enhancing your
memory. allowing your brain to process things
from more angles, and then creating a deeper
connection to the knowledge that you are absorbing
and listening to. So anyone can get better. It
doesn't matter which part of the spectrum they
sit on. They can actually improve their visual
thinking ability. It doesn't matter if you have
hyperphantasia or aphantasia. You can definitely
improve, and I'm proof of that. I've got better
and better slowly over time. I would recommend
it to everybody. Do you have any tips that you
can give to someone who's never sketched before,
doesn't hold a pen, maybe only types on the computer?
Start small. Start short. Don't spend too long
on things. Even if you just doodle while you're
on the phone for 30 seconds to one minute, it's
better than if you just put it off, put it off,
and you're waiting for this, oh, I'm going to
wait for this creative time where I'm going to
start sketching and I'm going to work on my abilities.
Don't do that. Just little bit by little bit.
Just do a little bit every day. And if you can
squeeze in a tiny bit every single day, it has
this compounding effect. You will build muscle
memory. It's like, honestly, visual thinking
is more so like driving and riding a bike than
a really fine skill. It's more like a general
skill that improves and is enhanced with little
practice each day. Yeah, well, I mean, we talk
about it as a visual language, right? Yeah. And
the more you've got a grasp of that language,
the more you can write and communicate with it.
That's right. So you've got to use it or lose
it. Okay, one last tip to someone who is a visual
thinker. They love to sketch and think on paper,
but doesn't know where to take it from there.
And also is maybe busy. with work and things
like that how would they can they bring that
in to their work or life yeah don't wait for
permission if you're if you're somebody who already
has a bit of skill just do it and apply it wherever
you are however you can so lowest common denominator
don't you don't need there's no tool that is
truly required other than a piece of paper and
a pencil nothing fancier like The tools that
you need, you can either obtain for free or cost
less than a dollar. So they're super cheap, super
accessible, and apply it anywhere, like in any
context you can. I guess the other tips I would
say is we have a pretty cool little course. You
should go and do that. It's called Think Visual.
That one's pretty comprehensive. It's like a
great little way for people to start off their
journey, but it's also good for people who already
have some skills and just want to hone. So, yeah,
I would say the bottom line is... just start
just apply it um apply it as soon as you can
wherever you are i was also thinking come to
our meetup because oh yeah you know everyone
there is sketching no one is it's quite a safe
place and we just have fun yeah yeah and you
know imagine being in a room with 50 other people
or you know also who are all sketching and trying
it out you'll feel encouraged because no one
there is you know judging um how you look or
how it is that um the the how the visual is that
you've created in fact the opposite is true people
are just you know really kind of bring you on
board and if you want encouragement if you want
feedback if you want ideas if you want techniques
you just have to look over your shoulder and
you'll see someone doing something interesting
in a way that you probably didn't expect i've
been doing this with you diana for now a year
And there's still ways that I see that surprise
me. So it's pretty cool. People should come along
for sure. Yeah, for sure. Well, thanks, Alan.
Where can people find you if they want to follow
what you do and get more or know more about what
you do? I think LinkedIn is probably the best
place. I post quite a bit on LinkedIn. I don't
post as much on my Instagram except for during
Inktober. So my Instagram is Fable Us, but we'll
include that in the show notes. We'll include
that in the show notes. Obviously, the Shapeshifters
website, but LinkedIn. LinkedIn is probably the
best place. I regularly post thoughts, articles,
video links, drawings, that kind of thing. And
if they want to meet you in person, they can
come to the Think Visual. Come to Think Visual
or Sydney Design Thinking. Sydney Design Thinking
as well. Great. Well, thank you so much for your
time today, Al. Of course. You're welcome. Thank
you.