WEBVTT 00:00:05.669 --> 00:00:09.150 Hi, Alan. Hello. Welcome to Think Visual with 00:00:09.150 --> 00:00:12.070 Shapeshifters. The tables have turned today. 00:00:12.150 --> 00:00:17.609 You are the interviewee. This is all strangely 00:00:17.609 --> 00:00:22.210 familiar. Yes, yes. I should be wearing that 00:00:22.210 --> 00:00:26.320 T -shirt. Damn it. What is this? I specifically 00:00:26.320 --> 00:00:29.079 asked you not to so that there's a bit of differentiation 00:00:29.079 --> 00:00:32.079 today because usually you're the host for the 00:00:32.079 --> 00:00:36.820 first few ones you've been the host. Yes, but 00:00:36.820 --> 00:00:40.759 I think it also puts you in the mindset of you're 00:00:40.759 --> 00:00:43.799 not the one asking questions today. We'll see 00:00:43.799 --> 00:00:49.340 about that. Okay, are we going to include all 00:00:49.340 --> 00:00:53.920 of that? Quite possibly. Why not? Maybe, yeah. 00:00:54.299 --> 00:00:57.820 okay um give people a glimpse into what's actually 00:00:57.820 --> 00:01:00.560 going on behind the scenes yeah we all we seem 00:01:00.560 --> 00:01:02.880 all friendly and nice and happy and actually 00:01:02.880 --> 00:01:07.459 we're crazy crazy it's a bit of a play yes um 00:01:07.459 --> 00:01:12.340 okay well can you please start by telling us 00:01:12.340 --> 00:01:14.140 a little bit about your origin story i think 00:01:14.140 --> 00:01:16.700 everyone knows you because you're the face of 00:01:16.700 --> 00:01:28.120 think visual We do the meetups. We bring other 00:01:28.120 --> 00:01:31.159 speakers. We've been doing this podcast series. 00:01:31.959 --> 00:01:36.560 But I think people are always curious about you 00:01:36.560 --> 00:01:40.859 and they can see the incredible talent and superpower 00:01:40.859 --> 00:01:43.239 that you have. And I think it would be great 00:01:43.239 --> 00:01:45.040 to give them a little bit of a glimpse of where 00:01:45.040 --> 00:01:48.379 that comes from. Okay. A little bit of context. 00:01:48.500 --> 00:01:55.549 Okay. Where do I begin? I think... Well, for 00:01:55.549 --> 00:02:02.750 me, I would say it genuinely begins in my childhood 00:02:02.750 --> 00:02:07.390 because I've kind of always known that I'm a 00:02:07.390 --> 00:02:10.949 visual person, always. So I recognized early 00:02:10.949 --> 00:02:16.159 on that I... I guess I kind of think differently. 00:02:16.300 --> 00:02:19.800 I recall probably some of my earliest memories 00:02:19.800 --> 00:02:22.419 of my teachers thinking that something was wrong 00:02:22.419 --> 00:02:28.240 with me. So I was schooled in the 80s. And even 00:02:28.240 --> 00:02:31.280 in kindergarten, I remember my teachers, well, 00:02:31.300 --> 00:02:34.319 my teacher in particular, she constantly told 00:02:34.319 --> 00:02:37.800 me to stop drawing. And I guess, you know, in 00:02:37.800 --> 00:02:42.139 kindy, I don't exactly possess the words to explain 00:02:42.139 --> 00:02:47.229 that. I'm not just drawing anything and that 00:02:47.229 --> 00:02:51.689 some part of what I was doing was probably connected 00:02:51.689 --> 00:02:56.710 to what was going on. So I kind of always knew 00:02:56.710 --> 00:03:02.150 that I am a visual person. And as I started to 00:03:02.150 --> 00:03:05.849 grow up, I think it became a bit more of a conscious 00:03:05.849 --> 00:03:08.949 act slowly through school. And it was kind of 00:03:08.949 --> 00:03:11.870 hard going at the time because, again, it was 00:03:11.870 --> 00:03:18.139 being schooled in the 80s. Seeing somebody approach 00:03:18.139 --> 00:03:23.259 work in an illustrative manner was a little bit 00:03:23.259 --> 00:03:26.460 weird for my teachers, and some took it better 00:03:26.460 --> 00:03:29.319 than others. Some people encouraged me and said, 00:03:29.379 --> 00:03:32.620 this is great, I can see that this is... I think 00:03:32.620 --> 00:03:35.719 in year one, my teacher, she was instrumental 00:03:35.719 --> 00:03:42.979 to me. following the path of using visual thinking 00:03:42.979 --> 00:03:48.460 and I think she could see then clearly that there 00:03:48.460 --> 00:03:51.340 was a some kind of connection in my drawings 00:03:51.340 --> 00:03:53.960 it wasn't just random doodles and even though 00:03:53.960 --> 00:03:55.879 there was a lot of random doodles there was a 00:03:55.879 --> 00:03:59.280 lot but not all of it was random so I mean I 00:03:59.280 --> 00:04:03.379 draw you know superheroes werewolves monsters 00:04:03.379 --> 00:04:08.360 of all kinds dinosaurs but there was also parts 00:04:08.360 --> 00:04:10.900 of the page that were dedicated to what was being 00:04:10.900 --> 00:04:14.520 said and what was happening so yeah i was going 00:04:14.520 --> 00:04:16.899 to ask about that because when you say i'm a 00:04:16.899 --> 00:04:20.439 visual person especially as a kid like i think 00:04:20.439 --> 00:04:24.740 we all say we're visual or a lot of people say 00:04:24.740 --> 00:04:29.279 they're visual people um and also almost all 00:04:29.279 --> 00:04:32.740 kids draw and doodle all the time so what what 00:04:32.740 --> 00:04:34.660 made you actually different like was there anything 00:04:34.660 --> 00:04:40.420 that you felt was different definitely i think 00:04:40.420 --> 00:04:46.759 um the way i describe it is that when people 00:04:46.759 --> 00:04:52.740 would speak i would immediately get very detailed 00:04:52.740 --> 00:04:56.860 crisp images in my mind of what it is they were 00:04:56.860 --> 00:04:59.139 talking about so i think an example would be 00:04:59.139 --> 00:05:03.240 if someone said the word dog I wouldn't just 00:05:03.240 --> 00:05:05.579 get a picture of any random dog. I would get 00:05:05.579 --> 00:05:07.800 all the pictures of all the dogs that I'd ever 00:05:07.800 --> 00:05:10.879 seen. And they all start to kind of cram my head 00:05:10.879 --> 00:05:16.199 full of things. And I think that was very hard 00:05:16.199 --> 00:05:19.300 to initially process. And it made things like 00:05:19.300 --> 00:05:22.379 spelling slow for me. So it's not that I was 00:05:22.379 --> 00:05:27.160 dyslexic. And some of the teachers were like, 00:05:27.220 --> 00:05:30.079 oh, Alan's learning progress is rather slow in 00:05:30.079 --> 00:05:33.220 this. But then other teachers were saying there's 00:05:33.220 --> 00:05:35.240 a bit of a contrast because they can see that 00:05:35.240 --> 00:05:39.579 I have some initial problems with dictation, 00:05:39.579 --> 00:05:42.439 that exercise where the teachers are kind of 00:05:42.439 --> 00:05:44.439 speaking out the words and I'm trying to spell 00:05:44.439 --> 00:05:47.470 it out. I struggled immensely with that. But 00:05:47.470 --> 00:05:51.329 then again, I was reading Narnia when I was seven 00:05:51.329 --> 00:05:53.750 or eight years old and no problem reading through 00:05:53.750 --> 00:05:55.569 any of those books. I loved reading those books 00:05:55.569 --> 00:06:00.250 because my mind would create this rich imagery, 00:06:00.610 --> 00:06:02.949 three -dimensional worlds that I could actually 00:06:02.949 --> 00:06:07.329 see and experience. So I guess that was a little 00:06:07.329 --> 00:06:11.790 bit different. I could see everything that was 00:06:11.790 --> 00:06:15.550 being said to me. with no delay like it would 00:06:15.550 --> 00:06:19.449 instantly occur and it would be kind of confusing 00:06:19.449 --> 00:06:21.310 because i didn't know exactly what i was supposed 00:06:21.310 --> 00:06:24.709 to do with it and i i thought that everyone thought 00:06:24.709 --> 00:06:28.290 the same way and in fact actually i think that 00:06:28.290 --> 00:06:31.509 i believe that everyone also i believe that everyone 00:06:31.509 --> 00:06:34.529 thinks the same way up until recently i remember 00:06:34.529 --> 00:06:37.430 we were chatting and i was like you see see it 00:06:37.430 --> 00:06:39.269 like that right and you're saying no you don't 00:06:39.269 --> 00:06:43.259 see it see that things that way so no um Yeah, 00:06:43.259 --> 00:06:46.660 so it's kind of like rich imagery that's in my 00:06:46.660 --> 00:06:52.160 mind and it took purposeful consideration and 00:06:52.160 --> 00:06:56.339 training and encouragement for me to know that, 00:06:56.399 --> 00:07:00.379 okay, I don't need everything. I just need one 00:07:00.379 --> 00:07:05.860 image or two. Wow. That must have taken a lot 00:07:05.860 --> 00:07:08.199 of practice and training. Yeah, it took me all 00:07:08.199 --> 00:07:10.660 of primary school, all of high school. to get 00:07:10.660 --> 00:07:13.920 it right. And even throughout high school, I 00:07:13.920 --> 00:07:16.699 didn't get it right. It was still kind of sporadic 00:07:16.699 --> 00:07:19.480 bursts. There was a bit more structure, you know. 00:07:20.040 --> 00:07:26.339 But then when I went to fine arts school, studied 00:07:26.339 --> 00:07:28.540 fine arts at Sydney College of the Arts for a 00:07:28.540 --> 00:07:32.839 year, largely what we were doing was creating 00:07:32.839 --> 00:07:36.980 visual things. And it was helpful, but... I think 00:07:36.980 --> 00:07:39.279 my mind was seeking more structure. And then 00:07:39.279 --> 00:07:43.980 when I heard about Enmore School of Design, and 00:07:43.980 --> 00:07:46.560 I went there, the things that they were teaching 00:07:46.560 --> 00:07:50.240 me about composition, about layout, how to use 00:07:50.240 --> 00:07:54.060 typography, how to use color, and it just instantly 00:07:54.060 --> 00:07:56.079 made sense to me. I said, oh, this is what I've 00:07:56.079 --> 00:07:58.560 been missing. It's like suddenly somebody gave 00:07:58.560 --> 00:08:00.620 me a toolkit and said, these are some of the 00:08:00.620 --> 00:08:03.779 tools that you need. And all of the crazy stuff 00:08:03.779 --> 00:08:07.490 that goes on in your mind, can be made a little 00:08:07.490 --> 00:08:10.310 easier to manage or can be tempered if you use 00:08:10.310 --> 00:08:13.649 these tools. And then from there, it became so 00:08:13.649 --> 00:08:15.889 much smoother for me. I was like, oh, there's 00:08:15.889 --> 00:08:19.410 this thing called page layouts. And I can now 00:08:19.410 --> 00:08:22.750 figure out where to place things on a page. And 00:08:22.750 --> 00:08:25.750 then when I eventually went to the film school 00:08:25.750 --> 00:08:29.069 to study, it seemed like everything flowed even 00:08:29.069 --> 00:08:32.409 more smoothly because there they were specifically 00:08:32.409 --> 00:08:36.750 looking at visual storytelling. So, you know, 00:08:36.750 --> 00:08:42.629 as a filmmaker, you are trained to look for and 00:08:42.629 --> 00:08:47.970 craft imagery that usually conveys highly complex 00:08:47.970 --> 00:08:53.690 story, concepts, emotions. You know, if you take 00:08:53.690 --> 00:08:56.990 any great film and you analyze them frame by 00:08:56.990 --> 00:09:00.559 frame, you can see so much information packed 00:09:00.559 --> 00:09:04.259 into one moment, into one second. There's just 00:09:04.259 --> 00:09:07.340 so many things happening. And film school really 00:09:07.340 --> 00:09:11.299 helped me then kind of put it all together in 00:09:11.299 --> 00:09:17.679 a way that was very, I guess, palatable in a 00:09:17.679 --> 00:09:20.620 way and accessible. More people could understand 00:09:20.620 --> 00:09:26.220 what I was talking about. That's amazing. Actually, 00:09:26.220 --> 00:09:30.820 you're talking about a, type of neurodivergence 00:09:30.820 --> 00:09:34.700 right we recently we've been talking a little 00:09:34.700 --> 00:09:38.200 bit more recently about aphantasia and hyperphantasia 00:09:38.200 --> 00:09:41.500 and all that you've described in your experience 00:09:41.500 --> 00:09:45.200 it's a type of neurodivergence is that correct 00:09:45.200 --> 00:09:48.580 and yeah let's talk a little bit about that yeah 00:09:48.580 --> 00:09:53.759 so um i i've known about aphantasia for a good 00:09:53.759 --> 00:09:55.740 many years actually now it's probably probably 00:09:55.740 --> 00:10:01.870 um probably since the days of design college 00:10:01.870 --> 00:10:03.649 where you and I were starting to work together 00:10:03.649 --> 00:10:06.190 I first came across it then this would have been 00:10:06.190 --> 00:10:13.110 20 around the 2014 -2015 period so I've I think 00:10:13.110 --> 00:10:17.850 I came across it then and I'd never I'd never 00:10:17.850 --> 00:10:20.289 given that any thought before like I just assumed 00:10:20.289 --> 00:10:22.629 that everybody could see things the way I was 00:10:22.629 --> 00:10:24.049 seeing things and then when I heard that there 00:10:24.049 --> 00:10:29.519 was this condition where People did not have 00:10:29.519 --> 00:10:34.360 the ability to see with their mind's eye. I was 00:10:34.360 --> 00:10:37.639 really surprised. I went, wow, there's different 00:10:37.639 --> 00:10:40.159 ways. And I guess it should have been obvious 00:10:40.159 --> 00:10:43.039 to me all this time because, of course, we don't 00:10:43.039 --> 00:10:46.080 all think alike. Thinking is a deeply personal 00:10:46.080 --> 00:10:51.259 activity, right? And especially it was your experience 00:10:51.259 --> 00:10:53.919 in school. Oh, yeah. Because you were thinking 00:10:53.919 --> 00:10:56.299 basically different than all the other kids. 00:10:56.559 --> 00:10:59.269 I think I just... thought that I was something 00:10:59.269 --> 00:11:04.350 was wrong as a kid or you know that maybe maybe 00:11:04.350 --> 00:11:07.029 I was struggling I don't know I just learned 00:11:07.029 --> 00:11:10.990 in a way that was inefficient perhaps and when 00:11:10.990 --> 00:11:12.789 I found out about aphantasia was kind of interesting 00:11:12.789 --> 00:11:18.690 but aphantasia kind of opened my eyes because 00:11:18.690 --> 00:11:21.590 I was like wow there's this way of thinking that 00:11:21.590 --> 00:11:25.490 is so opposite of what I'm seeing and actually 00:11:25.490 --> 00:11:29.509 only in recent years did I find out about hyperphantasia 00:11:29.509 --> 00:11:32.769 like in the last two years and I thought what's 00:11:32.769 --> 00:11:35.970 this and when I read about hyperphantasia something 00:11:35.970 --> 00:11:39.090 suddenly clicked I suddenly realized that oh 00:11:39.090 --> 00:11:42.330 I think this is the thing that I've been experiencing 00:11:42.330 --> 00:11:45.960 my whole life which is you know where you get 00:11:45.960 --> 00:11:49.639 very rich imagery in your head so rich sometimes 00:11:49.639 --> 00:11:54.639 that it looks like it's right there um yeah so 00:11:54.639 --> 00:11:59.179 it was it was kind of weird and i i um as i said 00:11:59.179 --> 00:12:03.059 i only recently found out about it but um hyperphantasia 00:12:03.059 --> 00:12:07.379 is an aphantasia are two ends of a spectrum of 00:12:09.730 --> 00:12:12.129 let's call it visual thinking, right? So one 00:12:12.129 --> 00:12:18.289 end you get the most extreme vivid visualizations. 00:12:18.450 --> 00:12:22.649 The other end you get nothing at all. And so 00:12:22.649 --> 00:12:26.730 I'm on this, I don't know, I'm sure within hyperphantasia 00:12:26.730 --> 00:12:30.889 there's other extremes, but I'm on the hyperphantasia 00:12:30.889 --> 00:12:34.820 side of things as in. I get rich imagery. It's 00:12:34.820 --> 00:12:39.740 also context and subject specific. So some things 00:12:39.740 --> 00:12:43.460 give me more, some things give me less. It depends 00:12:43.460 --> 00:12:48.440 on familiarity. But yeah, it's an interesting 00:12:48.440 --> 00:12:54.179 neurodiverse way of thinking. It's not a disability. 00:12:54.740 --> 00:12:57.100 It's just a neurodiverse way of thinking. It's 00:12:57.100 --> 00:13:00.659 literally different ways of mental processing. 00:13:01.159 --> 00:13:04.799 Yeah, and when you were talking about you thought 00:13:04.799 --> 00:13:07.419 at school that something was wrong with you, 00:13:07.539 --> 00:13:09.639 it's actually more that the system, something 00:13:09.639 --> 00:13:11.899 was wrong with the system because it's just designed 00:13:11.899 --> 00:13:16.740 for one type of learner. Yeah. And so, yeah, 00:13:16.840 --> 00:13:19.600 that's unfortunate, but it sounds like you found 00:13:19.600 --> 00:13:21.659 different ways to thrive and you had the right 00:13:21.659 --> 00:13:24.940 support. Yeah, yeah, I definitely did. I've had 00:13:24.940 --> 00:13:28.519 good voices. My parents were both teachers and 00:13:28.519 --> 00:13:34.090 they... I guess they knew that I wasn't dumb. 00:13:35.629 --> 00:13:39.409 They used to always say to me, hey, look, if 00:13:39.409 --> 00:13:41.870 you learn differently, you've got to find the 00:13:41.870 --> 00:13:46.090 way you learn and then learn that way and then 00:13:46.090 --> 00:13:49.149 work that way. You can't just stay neutral and 00:13:49.149 --> 00:13:52.129 accept things the way they are. Be active. And 00:13:52.129 --> 00:13:55.190 I guess those words, my mom and dad's words always 00:13:55.190 --> 00:13:58.240 stayed in my head, be active. Seek for what it 00:13:58.240 --> 00:14:03.259 is that appeals to you, that helps you. And that 00:14:03.259 --> 00:14:05.259 makes a lot of sense. I mean, we're always talking 00:14:05.259 --> 00:14:08.179 about superpowers, and you've got to find what's 00:14:08.179 --> 00:14:13.059 your strength and then just leverage that. So 00:14:13.059 --> 00:14:17.299 you studied filmmaking, and then how did you 00:14:17.299 --> 00:14:23.279 get here? I guess through strange and... unexpected 00:14:23.279 --> 00:14:26.120 means i i think um the filmmaking side of things 00:14:26.120 --> 00:14:30.299 is um a bit more direct in a way like okay so 00:14:30.299 --> 00:14:33.220 if you if you follow my trajectory drawing all 00:14:33.220 --> 00:14:37.879 through school then in uni doing fine arts for 00:14:37.879 --> 00:14:41.100 a year pretty predictable right then going to 00:14:41.100 --> 00:14:43.940 do graphic design and studying visual design 00:14:43.940 --> 00:14:48.120 super helpful uh because it was like mastery 00:14:48.120 --> 00:14:51.620 of elements then from studying graphic design 00:14:51.620 --> 00:14:57.600 to doing filmmaking which was like a the one 00:14:57.600 --> 00:15:01.360 visual craft that includes all other visual crafts 00:15:01.360 --> 00:15:04.080 right because you're using spatial you're using 00:15:04.080 --> 00:15:07.080 you're using light you're using so many different 00:15:07.080 --> 00:15:11.759 elements as well as 2d things yeah but from film 00:15:11.759 --> 00:15:16.190 school I spent most of my creative career in 00:15:16.190 --> 00:15:20.450 filmmaking probably 12 years of my creative career 00:15:20.450 --> 00:15:24.970 as an independent filmmaker I've worked on commercials 00:15:24.970 --> 00:15:29.230 I worked on feature films music videos lots and 00:15:29.230 --> 00:15:34.889 lots of different things just ads and fun creative 00:15:34.889 --> 00:15:39.960 stuff and all kinds of things but One thing that 00:15:39.960 --> 00:15:43.580 was interesting is that all throughout my creative 00:15:43.580 --> 00:15:49.860 career, I was also teaching. I came across this 00:15:49.860 --> 00:15:57.860 ad years and years ago, which was to teach at 00:15:57.860 --> 00:16:00.379 a... a small design college, and it was to teach 00:16:00.379 --> 00:16:02.100 the things that I know really well, which is 00:16:02.100 --> 00:16:06.259 filmmaking and illustration and visual design. 00:16:06.360 --> 00:16:08.700 I was like, I know this quite well. I can definitely 00:16:08.700 --> 00:16:10.799 do this. And they were after somebody who had 00:16:10.799 --> 00:16:14.519 industry experience. Back then it was Raffles 00:16:14.519 --> 00:16:20.440 KVB. And I went to teach there and I had a great 00:16:20.440 --> 00:16:23.419 relationship with the people who were coordinating 00:16:23.419 --> 00:16:26.220 the courses and the program directors. And I 00:16:26.220 --> 00:16:29.460 guess they liked some of the stuff that I was 00:16:29.460 --> 00:16:34.879 doing there. And all through that time there 00:16:34.879 --> 00:16:41.539 was this nice tension between what I know to 00:16:41.539 --> 00:16:47.379 do intrinsically And then how to explain it to 00:16:47.379 --> 00:16:52.740 others in a way that is repeatable. And I got 00:16:52.740 --> 00:16:57.480 lots of practice doing that. And it was towards 00:16:57.480 --> 00:17:02.460 the apex of that time that I got the opportunity 00:17:02.460 --> 00:17:10.880 to lead a design college. And that's when I got 00:17:10.880 --> 00:17:16.039 to work with you. And, you know, that was a lot 00:17:16.039 --> 00:17:20.980 of fun. We had two good years together and taught 00:17:20.980 --> 00:17:26.460 lots of, you know, great students and build and 00:17:26.460 --> 00:17:30.440 design courses that we were very proud of. And 00:17:30.440 --> 00:17:32.900 then when that part, when that kind of chapter 00:17:32.900 --> 00:17:39.140 came to a close, I had this complete, almost 00:17:39.140 --> 00:17:41.160 like a complete blank canvas of going anywhere. 00:17:42.200 --> 00:17:44.819 As I said, the closing period of that time, I 00:17:44.819 --> 00:17:47.980 was introduced into design consulting through 00:17:47.980 --> 00:17:55.200 you. I met people at Tobias. And then the time 00:17:55.200 --> 00:18:00.759 at Tobias that I spent, I was focusing on strategic 00:18:00.759 --> 00:18:04.180 design consulting through the lens of a visual 00:18:04.180 --> 00:18:07.299 communication practitioner. And I got to utilize 00:18:07.299 --> 00:18:12.319 my... filmmaking skills. I could utilize my live 00:18:12.319 --> 00:18:15.099 drawing skills, which I had honed, weirdly enough, 00:18:15.160 --> 00:18:17.400 through teaching others. I mean, I guess it's 00:18:17.400 --> 00:18:22.740 kind of predictable in a way, because when we're 00:18:22.740 --> 00:18:24.940 teaching illustration, I have to annotate and 00:18:24.940 --> 00:18:27.180 illustrate what it is that I'm talking about. 00:18:27.299 --> 00:18:29.339 So I would always find myself drawing concepts. 00:18:29.420 --> 00:18:32.269 And the live drawing part was... part and parcel 00:18:32.269 --> 00:18:34.230 with the teaching and teaching I spent a long 00:18:34.230 --> 00:18:38.210 time doing. So at Tobias, I did the teaching 00:18:38.210 --> 00:18:43.349 bit. I did the filmmaking bit. I got to exercise 00:18:43.349 --> 00:18:47.329 my design mind on many different projects to 00:18:47.329 --> 00:18:51.250 think about things in different ways. And it 00:18:51.250 --> 00:18:57.210 was at the end of that time that I realized that 00:18:57.210 --> 00:19:00.880 this was something that I could that i could 00:19:00.880 --> 00:19:03.619 offer this it was like the sum total of all the 00:19:03.619 --> 00:19:06.480 things that i'd ever worked on had now given 00:19:06.480 --> 00:19:11.799 me um a unique opportunity to be able to help 00:19:11.799 --> 00:19:18.059 organizations and people in a in a way that is 00:19:18.059 --> 00:19:22.079 unlike anything else and that's that's um that's 00:19:22.079 --> 00:19:26.240 i guess how we um started shape shifters i mean 00:19:26.240 --> 00:19:29.500 technically we started shape shifters while we 00:19:29.500 --> 00:19:33.700 were actually teaching together but you know 00:19:33.700 --> 00:19:35.960 to help people in this way that we're doing now 00:19:35.960 --> 00:19:39.299 I think it's it came towards the end of my time 00:19:39.299 --> 00:19:41.779 consulting came towards the end of your time 00:19:41.779 --> 00:19:47.660 as a visual communication lead you know at the 00:19:47.660 --> 00:19:49.720 college that you were teaching at and it was 00:19:49.720 --> 00:19:53.200 like the the sum total of okay apply all this 00:19:53.200 --> 00:19:57.690 educational knowledge that we have all this consulting 00:19:57.690 --> 00:20:02.130 and all this crazy creative industry stuff. And 00:20:02.130 --> 00:20:06.210 we can help people in ways that are truly unique 00:20:06.210 --> 00:20:09.049 and innovative. Yeah, that's how I got here. 00:20:09.150 --> 00:20:11.650 I have to say, Alan, every time I've heard this, 00:20:11.789 --> 00:20:14.369 I've heard your journey and your story so many 00:20:14.369 --> 00:20:16.549 times. And every time I listen to it, it's just 00:20:16.549 --> 00:20:23.529 very inspiring. And I'm in awe because it's just 00:20:23.529 --> 00:20:27.210 so rich. you can you can really tell that all 00:20:27.210 --> 00:20:31.329 of that like every single part of um your journey 00:20:31.329 --> 00:20:34.369 led to this like it was it kind of formed you 00:20:34.369 --> 00:20:37.250 bit by bit yeah formed your thinking formed your 00:20:37.250 --> 00:20:40.809 approach and now what we do today at shapeshifters 00:20:40.809 --> 00:20:43.829 it feels like it's it's really the culmination 00:20:43.829 --> 00:20:47.990 of all of it and i feel like a lot of our a lot 00:20:47.990 --> 00:20:51.569 of our work stands out because because of the 00:20:51.569 --> 00:20:54.490 combination of that history that you have you 00:20:54.859 --> 00:20:59.500 I think also if I am to describe you in one word, 00:20:59.619 --> 00:21:02.279 it would be storyteller. It wouldn't be illustrator. 00:21:02.460 --> 00:21:06.180 It would be more storyteller. And it's because 00:21:06.180 --> 00:21:08.579 no matter what medium, even when you're telling 00:21:08.579 --> 00:21:14.960 a story, just by words, it's very rich in imagery, 00:21:15.180 --> 00:21:21.220 in emotion. You're just a very good storyteller. 00:21:21.640 --> 00:21:25.190 And when you combine that with your visual, skills 00:21:25.190 --> 00:21:32.890 it's very powerful and i guess i guess what i 00:21:32.890 --> 00:21:39.730 want to know is based on all of like all of your 00:21:39.730 --> 00:21:44.009 that crazy visual journey that you went through 00:21:44.009 --> 00:21:47.430 to really understand who you are as a as a visual 00:21:47.430 --> 00:21:52.950 thinker how do how do you use it today and how 00:21:52.950 --> 00:21:58.299 does what we do at Shapeshifters really reflect 00:21:58.299 --> 00:22:03.559 that. That's a great question. How I use visual 00:22:03.559 --> 00:22:09.799 thinking today is evolved, has definitely evolved 00:22:09.799 --> 00:22:13.559 a lot, a lot over time. I think I've become comfortable 00:22:13.559 --> 00:22:21.119 with knowing that my way of thinking can be of 00:22:21.119 --> 00:22:30.099 great benefit. So I think if you see me drawing, 00:22:30.440 --> 00:22:34.960 I'm thinking, and I'm kind of drawing all the 00:22:34.960 --> 00:22:39.339 time. So in conversations, at conferences, for 00:22:39.339 --> 00:22:44.660 myself, for other people, it's reflexive. So 00:22:44.660 --> 00:22:48.640 I guess the way I use it now is more purposeful. 00:22:53.069 --> 00:22:59.470 I need it myself. I don't often draw, I think, 00:22:59.490 --> 00:23:02.130 because I want to show others. My sketchbooks 00:23:02.130 --> 00:23:06.230 and my iPad, it's just littered with sketches 00:23:06.230 --> 00:23:11.410 because it's just how I think. I need to get 00:23:11.410 --> 00:23:15.450 the ideas from my mind out so that I can see 00:23:15.450 --> 00:23:19.849 and understand what it is that's kind of going 00:23:19.849 --> 00:23:22.339 on. I can process my thoughts. It's like a Part 00:23:22.339 --> 00:23:26.700 of my thinking must happen externally. You also 00:23:26.700 --> 00:23:33.140 mentioned that it's not as appealing and amazing 00:23:33.140 --> 00:23:37.380 as it sounds. Yeah, look, I mean, hyperphantasia, 00:23:37.460 --> 00:23:42.259 I think, with any extremes, there are benefits 00:23:42.259 --> 00:23:46.079 and then there are challenges. I think the benefits 00:23:46.079 --> 00:23:50.880 are... I feel like there's basically nothing 00:23:50.880 --> 00:23:54.480 that I hear that doesn't produce visuals in my 00:23:54.480 --> 00:23:57.420 mind. There's always visuals. And the richness 00:23:57.420 --> 00:24:01.319 or the lack of richness is dependent on the context 00:24:01.319 --> 00:24:04.119 and emotional state and lots of other things 00:24:04.119 --> 00:24:10.519 too. But I always have visuals. The challenges 00:24:10.519 --> 00:24:15.019 are trying to manage what goes on in my mind 00:24:15.019 --> 00:24:20.190 and also You know, there are certain things that 00:24:20.190 --> 00:24:26.130 are harder for me to, I guess, let go of in some 00:24:26.130 --> 00:24:32.250 way. So extremely emotional moments, traumas, 00:24:32.250 --> 00:24:35.569 they're very vivid in my mind. I can hear the 00:24:35.569 --> 00:24:39.809 sounds and I can see so richly. It's kind of, 00:24:39.809 --> 00:24:43.190 you know, in some ways it's kind of hard to shake 00:24:43.190 --> 00:24:50.490 off. active work so i can't just kind of let 00:24:50.490 --> 00:24:52.410 it be i actually have to think about it intentionally 00:24:52.410 --> 00:24:56.910 and find ways to process the the thoughts in 00:24:56.910 --> 00:25:00.109 my mind it's you know it's also like um i think 00:25:00.109 --> 00:25:02.390 i mentioned this to you before as a filmmaker 00:25:02.390 --> 00:25:05.829 um whenever i was thinking about stories and 00:25:05.829 --> 00:25:09.130 narratives um if i didn't start writing them 00:25:09.130 --> 00:25:14.390 out and if i didn't film them they would gnaw 00:25:14.390 --> 00:25:17.650 at my mind constantly, as in there's this constant 00:25:17.650 --> 00:25:21.309 pressure on my brain. It was like if they didn't 00:25:21.309 --> 00:25:24.069 come out on paper or on film, they would eat 00:25:24.069 --> 00:25:27.470 me up alive in some way. So sometimes it can 00:25:27.470 --> 00:25:32.069 be overwhelming. But I guess that's what it kind 00:25:32.069 --> 00:25:34.369 of comes with the territory of being able to 00:25:34.369 --> 00:25:39.569 see things with extreme vividness. I mean, the 00:25:39.569 --> 00:25:42.470 benefits are I can kind of prototype anything. 00:25:43.440 --> 00:25:46.200 on the spot, like really, really quickly. But 00:25:46.200 --> 00:25:50.140 the downsides are sometimes it's too much. So 00:25:50.140 --> 00:25:53.359 I guess over the years, I've just learned to 00:25:53.359 --> 00:25:56.519 kind of balance that. But it does make our work 00:25:56.519 --> 00:25:58.940 at ShapeShift is really different because you 00:25:58.940 --> 00:26:01.680 process things visually too, slightly different 00:26:01.680 --> 00:26:07.019 than me. And I think that the different ways 00:26:07.019 --> 00:26:11.539 that we do that makes our work really special 00:26:11.539 --> 00:26:17.920 because When people work with us, there's a lot 00:26:17.920 --> 00:26:20.539 of transparency. It's open. You can see what's 00:26:20.539 --> 00:26:24.420 going on. I'm not hiding behind screens. You 00:26:24.420 --> 00:26:27.279 are literally seeing my thoughts and your conversation 00:26:27.279 --> 00:26:33.440 meld together in front of your eyes with nothing 00:26:33.440 --> 00:26:39.500 to hide. It builds trust. It builds connection 00:26:39.500 --> 00:26:44.329 with people. It also saves time. You're referring 00:26:44.329 --> 00:26:47.410 to the co -design approach that we use where 00:26:47.410 --> 00:26:51.549 we're basically live sketching, or you're usually 00:26:51.549 --> 00:26:56.750 live sketching, I'm talking, with clients so 00:26:56.750 --> 00:26:59.809 that we can get to the results quicker. I think 00:26:59.809 --> 00:27:04.130 so. I mean, one thing that I'd love people to 00:27:04.130 --> 00:27:06.930 know is that it can work both ways. I can do 00:27:06.930 --> 00:27:08.910 the question asking and you can do the sketching. 00:27:09.869 --> 00:27:13.210 I think the reason we kind of typically go with 00:27:13.210 --> 00:27:17.329 that is it's the lowest point of resistance. 00:27:17.509 --> 00:27:19.829 It's quite easy. You're very inquisitive and 00:27:19.829 --> 00:27:22.230 you love to ask questions. And I'm very illustrative 00:27:22.230 --> 00:27:26.450 because I think that way. So it's very natural 00:27:26.450 --> 00:27:29.630 that we just go, okay, default is that. But we 00:27:29.630 --> 00:27:33.190 can comfortably swap. So yes, I'm thinking about 00:27:33.190 --> 00:27:36.430 the co -design, but I'm also thinking about whenever 00:27:36.430 --> 00:27:40.130 we communicate and work with people, even if 00:27:40.130 --> 00:27:42.589 it's not during a co -design session, the visuals 00:27:42.589 --> 00:27:48.690 that we're creating, they're an extension of 00:27:48.690 --> 00:27:50.970 the conversations and the trust that we've built. 00:27:51.769 --> 00:27:53.710 Rarely do I feel like there's any surprises. 00:27:54.569 --> 00:27:58.970 It's not that people aren't surprised with... 00:27:59.049 --> 00:28:02.829 the things it's more like they did not see something 00:28:02.829 --> 00:28:06.509 that they didn't um help or have a hand in creating 00:28:06.509 --> 00:28:08.869 yeah it's they're we're literally bringing them 00:28:08.869 --> 00:28:10.490 along on the journey because they can see the 00:28:10.490 --> 00:28:13.789 very very roughest sketch but it's actually their 00:28:13.789 --> 00:28:19.049 ideas coming on paper so it's very personal for 00:28:19.049 --> 00:28:21.869 them so they they're they're right there from 00:28:21.869 --> 00:28:24.490 the beginning and i think the the the finesse 00:28:24.490 --> 00:28:31.000 the the finish that we we create it's It's a 00:28:31.000 --> 00:28:36.640 nice thing that we bring because of the experience 00:28:36.640 --> 00:28:42.420 that we have. But it's actually not as valuable 00:28:42.420 --> 00:28:45.460 as the part where we are actually able to bring 00:28:45.460 --> 00:28:48.759 people along together and do things together 00:28:48.759 --> 00:28:53.859 because it makes it so much more clear. I think 00:28:53.859 --> 00:28:57.509 clarity is the really important part. are clear 00:28:57.509 --> 00:29:00.349 about what it is that they're getting and what 00:29:00.349 --> 00:29:04.509 it is that they're designing because it's literally 00:29:04.509 --> 00:29:07.589 appearing right before their eyes and you and 00:29:07.589 --> 00:29:12.710 i have talked about this a lot um we because 00:29:12.710 --> 00:29:15.809 of our background in you know consulting and 00:29:15.809 --> 00:29:18.470 education and design like all of these different 00:29:18.470 --> 00:29:20.750 things and visual communication and storytelling 00:29:20.750 --> 00:29:25.490 we've talked about what what is it that we actually 00:29:25.490 --> 00:29:30.400 do Because it's not just visual thinking where 00:29:30.400 --> 00:29:35.039 we just create images in real time. There's a 00:29:35.039 --> 00:29:36.940 little bit more. And I'm talking about, obviously, 00:29:36.980 --> 00:29:38.920 the services that we offer at Shapeshifters. 00:29:39.240 --> 00:29:43.519 Maybe really quickly, why do we call ourselves 00:29:43.519 --> 00:29:46.440 communication design? What we do is communication 00:29:46.440 --> 00:29:50.779 design. And specifically, I suppose we've been 00:29:50.779 --> 00:29:52.900 angling a little bit towards strategic communication. 00:29:52.940 --> 00:29:57.019 And why do we call it that? So another good question. 00:29:57.599 --> 00:30:02.319 If you can picture the iceberg diagram, where 00:30:02.319 --> 00:30:05.519 there's the tip of the iceberg and everyone sees 00:30:05.519 --> 00:30:11.240 the fact that we illustrate the fact that we're 00:30:11.240 --> 00:30:14.579 visual thinkers, that's right at the very, very 00:30:14.579 --> 00:30:19.869 top. It's the things that are easily identifiable 00:30:19.869 --> 00:30:22.650 as us. I think the thing that goes underneath, 00:30:22.930 --> 00:30:25.509 the massiveness of what happens underneath is 00:30:25.509 --> 00:30:30.150 our rich understanding of design and the design 00:30:30.150 --> 00:30:35.089 process, our understanding that strategy is something 00:30:35.089 --> 00:30:39.230 that happens over a period of time. It's not 00:30:39.230 --> 00:30:45.240 something that... you know, is accidental or 00:30:45.240 --> 00:30:49.500 you hope works away. It's very intentional. And 00:30:49.500 --> 00:30:54.099 we know how to work intentionally towards things. 00:30:54.319 --> 00:30:56.799 So we understand strategy. We understand design. 00:30:57.500 --> 00:31:00.740 And the communication part of it, we understand 00:31:00.740 --> 00:31:04.480 that intimately well because that's our background. 00:31:04.700 --> 00:31:08.420 You know, we are great at all forms of communication. 00:31:08.519 --> 00:31:13.539 So I think we can speak. Sure. We can create 00:31:13.539 --> 00:31:18.500 illustrations, definitely. But we also can craft 00:31:18.500 --> 00:31:22.660 beautiful videos. We can wireframe and prototype. 00:31:22.799 --> 00:31:29.019 There's almost no way of, no form of communication 00:31:29.019 --> 00:31:32.940 that we are not well versed in. We also write 00:31:32.940 --> 00:31:36.940 copy for many of our clients as well. Because 00:31:36.940 --> 00:31:42.319 part of my background is writing as well. written 00:31:42.319 --> 00:31:47.200 screenplays, worked as a script editor. It's 00:31:47.200 --> 00:31:56.079 part and parcel with all of the creative industries 00:31:56.079 --> 00:31:58.240 that we've worked in, and we bring all of that 00:31:58.240 --> 00:32:02.180 richness. I think between you and me together, 00:32:02.460 --> 00:32:08.309 there's over 30 years. like 35 almost 40 years 00:32:08.309 --> 00:32:11.269 worth of creative experience that we bring to 00:32:11.269 --> 00:32:16.730 a table and that's that's quite a lot that's 00:32:16.730 --> 00:32:22.789 quite unique not easily replicable yeah i was 00:32:22.789 --> 00:32:25.430 thinking is this starting to sound a bit too 00:32:25.430 --> 00:32:27.890 much like marketing marketing we're promoting 00:32:27.890 --> 00:32:30.849 what we do but really because i actually think 00:32:30.849 --> 00:32:34.420 that this is really worth talking about because 00:32:34.420 --> 00:32:38.160 not a lot of people really see the value of it 00:32:38.160 --> 00:32:42.119 and people sometimes look at what we do or come 00:32:42.119 --> 00:32:44.359 up to you at an event and are like wow how did 00:32:44.359 --> 00:32:47.759 you do that you know and it's true it's kind 00:32:47.759 --> 00:32:49.759 of it's a little bit like magic what you create 00:32:49.759 --> 00:32:53.819 at an event right there on the spot but the other 00:32:53.819 --> 00:32:56.019 part of it is when we're talking to a business 00:32:56.019 --> 00:32:59.259 or a team and then we hear the struggles they're 00:32:59.259 --> 00:33:03.599 they're having Usually a lot of times it's because 00:33:03.599 --> 00:33:06.460 there's miscommunication and a lot of times we 00:33:06.460 --> 00:33:08.880 immediately can see that that miscommunication 00:33:08.880 --> 00:33:12.920 can be resolved pretty easily through visual 00:33:12.920 --> 00:33:18.720 communication because it's the way that we communicate 00:33:18.720 --> 00:33:23.680 intuitively with each other, but also it kind 00:33:23.680 --> 00:33:27.619 of removes barriers, right? It simplifies. And 00:33:27.619 --> 00:33:29.819 now I'm starting to sound a bit like jargon. 00:33:30.720 --> 00:33:33.940 It's no accident that it's visuals that we use. 00:33:34.000 --> 00:33:38.680 Because here's the thing. My words can easily 00:33:38.680 --> 00:33:41.740 be misconstrued. You can understand it one way. 00:33:41.880 --> 00:33:44.319 Someone else can understand it a completely different 00:33:44.319 --> 00:33:49.380 way. And that's because our relationship with 00:33:49.380 --> 00:33:53.359 words is different than our relationship with 00:33:53.359 --> 00:33:56.990 imagery. With words... people can switch off, 00:33:57.089 --> 00:33:59.650 ignore, they can skip parts that they can often 00:33:59.650 --> 00:34:01.789 say, oh, I didn't hear that part. I didn't hear 00:34:01.789 --> 00:34:06.109 it like that. With images, we don't have any 00:34:06.109 --> 00:34:09.170 filters on our, you know, our eyes are actually 00:34:09.170 --> 00:34:12.829 the filters for our minds and they don't filter 00:34:12.829 --> 00:34:14.989 anything. They actually, so when we walk around, 00:34:15.030 --> 00:34:17.230 like we walk around with our eyes open and do 00:34:17.230 --> 00:34:22.489 our thing, we're taking in like billions and 00:34:22.489 --> 00:34:25.809 billions of bits of information. instantaneously 00:34:25.809 --> 00:34:29.489 without us even knowing. And so if you use visuals 00:34:29.489 --> 00:34:32.349 to communicate, you're already using something 00:34:32.349 --> 00:34:35.969 that can immediately cut through and get into 00:34:35.969 --> 00:34:41.090 the mind rapidly. But the other thing is we're 00:34:41.090 --> 00:34:44.829 using it in a way because we understand that 00:34:44.829 --> 00:34:49.469 the craft of visual communication allows us to 00:34:49.469 --> 00:34:55.079 make messages stand out and stick to the mind 00:34:55.079 --> 00:35:00.179 so they can be retained in your memory for much 00:35:00.179 --> 00:35:02.360 longer than, you know, if you said something, 00:35:02.480 --> 00:35:07.840 it's so easy to forget. Yeah. Okay. Well, we're 00:35:07.840 --> 00:35:13.159 coming to almost the end of our conversation, 00:35:13.219 --> 00:35:15.880 but I wanted to ask you, you mentioned before, 00:35:15.960 --> 00:35:20.639 let's call Fantasia and Hyperfantasia and Afantasia 00:35:20.639 --> 00:35:26.260 the visual thinking kind of. Do you think that's 00:35:26.260 --> 00:35:29.500 actually the case, or is there a little bit of 00:35:29.500 --> 00:35:32.940 a differentiation? Because in my head, the minds 00:35:32.940 --> 00:35:35.440 are, and we know some people who have aphantasia 00:35:35.440 --> 00:35:38.619 and are amazing sketchnoters and visual thinkers. 00:35:39.699 --> 00:35:43.099 What's the difference, and can someone grow in 00:35:43.099 --> 00:35:47.320 visual thinking even if they don't think as vividly 00:35:47.320 --> 00:35:53.610 as you do? Oh, yeah. Vivid as my mind is, if 00:35:53.610 --> 00:35:58.409 I sketch things down, I have a much better understanding 00:35:58.409 --> 00:36:00.869 than when I just leave it in my head. Even me. 00:36:00.889 --> 00:36:06.929 And I can see things quite vividly. So whether 00:36:06.929 --> 00:36:11.969 you have aphantasia or fantasia or hyperphantasia, 00:36:12.050 --> 00:36:17.889 you can hone your ability to think visually. 00:36:18.309 --> 00:36:24.980 If you apply it, in the physical sense. There's 00:36:24.980 --> 00:36:27.119 something very special that happens when you 00:36:27.119 --> 00:36:33.119 pick up a pen and you write things and sketch 00:36:33.119 --> 00:36:36.159 things out on a piece of paper. The paper itself 00:36:36.159 --> 00:36:38.619 kind of speaks back to you. So there's this unique 00:36:38.619 --> 00:36:43.360 relationship that happens. And also the other 00:36:43.360 --> 00:36:50.119 thing is the physical act of sketching activates 00:36:50.119 --> 00:36:52.420 different parts of the brain that do not become 00:36:52.420 --> 00:36:58.300 active. If you're typing things out, that part 00:36:58.300 --> 00:37:00.579 of the brain is not active. Specifically, it's 00:37:00.579 --> 00:37:03.000 called the parietal lobe. So when you're sketching, 00:37:03.000 --> 00:37:07.039 the parietal lobe is activated, and it's the 00:37:07.039 --> 00:37:09.159 language center of your mind. It's the cognition 00:37:09.159 --> 00:37:13.400 part of your mind. So you are enhancing your 00:37:13.400 --> 00:37:17.219 memory. allowing your brain to process things 00:37:17.219 --> 00:37:23.119 from more angles, and then creating a deeper 00:37:23.119 --> 00:37:26.539 connection to the knowledge that you are absorbing 00:37:26.539 --> 00:37:30.199 and listening to. So anyone can get better. It 00:37:30.199 --> 00:37:32.280 doesn't matter which part of the spectrum they 00:37:32.280 --> 00:37:35.539 sit on. They can actually improve their visual 00:37:35.539 --> 00:37:38.360 thinking ability. It doesn't matter if you have 00:37:38.360 --> 00:37:41.280 hyperphantasia or aphantasia. You can definitely 00:37:41.280 --> 00:37:45.519 improve, and I'm proof of that. I've got better 00:37:45.519 --> 00:37:51.760 and better slowly over time. I would recommend 00:37:51.760 --> 00:37:56.960 it to everybody. Do you have any tips that you 00:37:56.960 --> 00:37:59.739 can give to someone who's never sketched before, 00:37:59.880 --> 00:38:03.000 doesn't hold a pen, maybe only types on the computer? 00:38:03.460 --> 00:38:08.300 Start small. Start short. Don't spend too long 00:38:08.300 --> 00:38:12.219 on things. Even if you just doodle while you're 00:38:12.219 --> 00:38:15.679 on the phone for 30 seconds to one minute, it's 00:38:15.679 --> 00:38:19.480 better than if you just put it off, put it off, 00:38:19.500 --> 00:38:21.440 and you're waiting for this, oh, I'm going to 00:38:21.440 --> 00:38:23.679 wait for this creative time where I'm going to 00:38:23.679 --> 00:38:25.800 start sketching and I'm going to work on my abilities. 00:38:26.019 --> 00:38:28.860 Don't do that. Just little bit by little bit. 00:38:28.920 --> 00:38:31.619 Just do a little bit every day. And if you can 00:38:31.619 --> 00:38:35.780 squeeze in a tiny bit every single day, it has 00:38:35.780 --> 00:38:39.690 this compounding effect. You will build muscle 00:38:39.690 --> 00:38:43.469 memory. It's like, honestly, visual thinking 00:38:43.469 --> 00:38:50.570 is more so like driving and riding a bike than 00:38:50.570 --> 00:38:54.429 a really fine skill. It's more like a general 00:38:54.429 --> 00:39:01.829 skill that improves and is enhanced with little 00:39:01.829 --> 00:39:05.099 practice each day. Yeah, well, I mean, we talk 00:39:05.099 --> 00:39:07.500 about it as a visual language, right? Yeah. And 00:39:07.500 --> 00:39:10.760 the more you've got a grasp of that language, 00:39:10.860 --> 00:39:14.159 the more you can write and communicate with it. 00:39:14.340 --> 00:39:17.219 That's right. So you've got to use it or lose 00:39:17.219 --> 00:39:21.760 it. Okay, one last tip to someone who is a visual 00:39:21.760 --> 00:39:26.260 thinker. They love to sketch and think on paper, 00:39:26.360 --> 00:39:29.960 but doesn't know where to take it from there. 00:39:30.880 --> 00:39:33.960 And also is maybe busy. with work and things 00:39:33.960 --> 00:39:37.099 like that how would they can they bring that 00:39:37.099 --> 00:39:40.739 in to their work or life yeah don't wait for 00:39:40.739 --> 00:39:43.840 permission if you're if you're somebody who already 00:39:43.840 --> 00:39:48.179 has a bit of skill just do it and apply it wherever 00:39:48.179 --> 00:39:52.659 you are however you can so lowest common denominator 00:39:52.659 --> 00:39:56.920 don't you don't need there's no tool that is 00:39:56.920 --> 00:39:59.480 truly required other than a piece of paper and 00:39:59.480 --> 00:40:03.400 a pencil nothing fancier like The tools that 00:40:03.400 --> 00:40:06.840 you need, you can either obtain for free or cost 00:40:06.840 --> 00:40:11.280 less than a dollar. So they're super cheap, super 00:40:11.280 --> 00:40:17.420 accessible, and apply it anywhere, like in any 00:40:17.420 --> 00:40:20.139 context you can. I guess the other tips I would 00:40:20.139 --> 00:40:26.119 say is we have a pretty cool little course. You 00:40:26.119 --> 00:40:29.039 should go and do that. It's called Think Visual. 00:40:31.610 --> 00:40:34.170 That one's pretty comprehensive. It's like a 00:40:34.170 --> 00:40:36.989 great little way for people to start off their 00:40:36.989 --> 00:40:41.090 journey, but it's also good for people who already 00:40:41.090 --> 00:40:44.690 have some skills and just want to hone. So, yeah, 00:40:44.769 --> 00:40:48.239 I would say the bottom line is... just start 00:40:48.239 --> 00:40:51.139 just apply it um apply it as soon as you can 00:40:51.139 --> 00:40:53.940 wherever you are i was also thinking come to 00:40:53.940 --> 00:40:56.460 our meetup because oh yeah you know everyone 00:40:56.460 --> 00:41:00.539 there is sketching no one is it's quite a safe 00:41:00.539 --> 00:41:03.900 place and we just have fun yeah yeah and you 00:41:03.900 --> 00:41:06.159 know imagine being in a room with 50 other people 00:41:06.159 --> 00:41:11.400 or you know also who are all sketching and trying 00:41:11.400 --> 00:41:14.340 it out you'll feel encouraged because no one 00:41:14.340 --> 00:41:17.940 there is you know judging um how you look or 00:41:17.940 --> 00:41:21.840 how it is that um the the how the visual is that 00:41:21.840 --> 00:41:25.139 you've created in fact the opposite is true people 00:41:25.139 --> 00:41:28.300 are just you know really kind of bring you on 00:41:28.300 --> 00:41:30.400 board and if you want encouragement if you want 00:41:30.400 --> 00:41:33.199 feedback if you want ideas if you want techniques 00:41:33.199 --> 00:41:35.320 you just have to look over your shoulder and 00:41:35.320 --> 00:41:36.800 you'll see someone doing something interesting 00:41:36.800 --> 00:41:40.360 in a way that you probably didn't expect i've 00:41:40.360 --> 00:41:43.320 been doing this with you diana for now a year 00:41:44.259 --> 00:41:47.039 And there's still ways that I see that surprise 00:41:47.039 --> 00:41:50.659 me. So it's pretty cool. People should come along 00:41:50.659 --> 00:41:53.440 for sure. Yeah, for sure. Well, thanks, Alan. 00:41:53.599 --> 00:41:55.900 Where can people find you if they want to follow 00:41:55.900 --> 00:42:00.179 what you do and get more or know more about what 00:42:00.179 --> 00:42:01.960 you do? I think LinkedIn is probably the best 00:42:01.960 --> 00:42:04.840 place. I post quite a bit on LinkedIn. I don't 00:42:04.840 --> 00:42:09.820 post as much on my Instagram except for during 00:42:09.820 --> 00:42:16.900 Inktober. So my Instagram is Fable Us, but we'll 00:42:16.900 --> 00:42:18.900 include that in the show notes. We'll include 00:42:18.900 --> 00:42:20.500 that in the show notes. Obviously, the Shapeshifters 00:42:20.500 --> 00:42:23.380 website, but LinkedIn. LinkedIn is probably the 00:42:23.380 --> 00:42:27.539 best place. I regularly post thoughts, articles, 00:42:28.079 --> 00:42:31.880 video links, drawings, that kind of thing. And 00:42:31.880 --> 00:42:33.340 if they want to meet you in person, they can 00:42:33.340 --> 00:42:35.139 come to the Think Visual. Come to Think Visual 00:42:35.139 --> 00:42:37.820 or Sydney Design Thinking. Sydney Design Thinking 00:42:37.820 --> 00:42:40.300 as well. Great. Well, thank you so much for your 00:42:40.300 --> 00:42:44.309 time today, Al. Of course. You're welcome. Thank 00:42:44.309 --> 00:42:44.489 you.