WEBVTT 00:00:05.489 --> 00:00:08.449 Welcome, Ewan. Thank you. Thanks for joining 00:00:08.449 --> 00:00:12.929 us for our second Think Visual YouTube series. 00:00:13.890 --> 00:00:16.269 We have started it this year, so it's been really, 00:00:16.329 --> 00:00:19.710 really fun and exciting to speak to all the speakers 00:00:19.710 --> 00:00:23.949 privately. And this is my first one, so it's 00:00:23.949 --> 00:00:26.370 going to be fun. Cool. I'm delighted to be here. 00:00:26.929 --> 00:00:32.030 So, first of all, you're wearing a Sketch Note 00:00:32.030 --> 00:00:35.759 Army t -shirt. Yes, I am. I came prepared. I 00:00:35.759 --> 00:00:39.240 don't have a shapeshifter's one. But you're a 00:00:39.240 --> 00:00:44.280 Mike Rode fan. I am now. Funnily enough, though, 00:00:44.320 --> 00:00:47.219 I came to that later. I know a lot of people, 00:00:47.299 --> 00:00:50.679 the gateway drug, the introduction was Sketch 00:00:50.679 --> 00:00:55.399 Note, Mike Rode. But for me, it wasn't. To me, 00:00:55.439 --> 00:00:58.539 I came to it later. And I came to it because 00:00:58.539 --> 00:01:02.340 I was, early on in my visual journey, I was... 00:01:02.780 --> 00:01:05.819 looking for inspiration from other visual artists 00:01:05.819 --> 00:01:14.239 and I got into the podcast and I would scribe 00:01:14.239 --> 00:01:16.290 the podcast. Oh, that's awesome. In real time 00:01:16.290 --> 00:01:20.810 and try and pick up all the styles and learn 00:01:20.810 --> 00:01:23.230 from the styles of these amazing visual artists. 00:01:23.450 --> 00:01:25.790 Oh, that's a great way to learn. Yeah. I actually 00:01:25.790 --> 00:01:28.049 didn't know about the podcast until a year ago 00:01:28.049 --> 00:01:31.290 when Mike reached out to Alan to do an interview. 00:01:31.430 --> 00:01:33.909 And then I did an interview with him recently 00:01:33.909 --> 00:01:37.489 as well. So that was cool. But yeah, he was actually, 00:01:37.670 --> 00:01:40.750 his book was one of my first introductions to 00:01:40.750 --> 00:01:43.099 sketchnoting. and you've got i've got the book 00:01:43.099 --> 00:01:45.540 yeah you've got all that i'm a tall fan boy now 00:01:45.540 --> 00:01:49.280 yeah this is my favorite uh paper book because 00:01:49.280 --> 00:01:51.420 the you cannot get bleed through it's amazing 00:01:51.420 --> 00:01:54.640 paper and it if you are new to it it does have 00:01:54.640 --> 00:01:57.060 all the little you know that the high level stuff 00:01:57.060 --> 00:02:00.060 that he talks about the patterns etc it's awesome 00:02:00.060 --> 00:02:04.439 so a great introduction um i think traffic maybe 00:02:04.439 --> 00:02:07.180 graphic gear i got this from yeah and while we're 00:02:07.180 --> 00:02:09.379 on the subject of toys this is my favorite of 00:02:09.379 --> 00:02:14.460 our pens The Fudenosuke with the hard tip. Is 00:02:14.460 --> 00:02:17.580 that Japanese pen? Yeah. So I'm a bit of a New 00:02:17.580 --> 00:02:19.759 Orleans fanboy because I was Bacablo originally. 00:02:20.680 --> 00:02:22.939 But this is my favorite pen. I use this for everything. 00:02:23.159 --> 00:02:25.360 Okay. Maybe you'll send me a link and we'll put 00:02:25.360 --> 00:02:28.500 in the notes. Okay, cool. Big shout out to Sketch 00:02:28.500 --> 00:02:31.439 Note Army and to Graphic Gear. So Graphic Gear 00:02:31.439 --> 00:02:34.979 is Melbourne based, right? They provide all the 00:02:34.979 --> 00:02:39.159 Neuland gear for Australia. And Neuland, the 00:02:39.159 --> 00:02:41.460 big pens, I've got some in my bag, the big pens 00:02:41.460 --> 00:02:45.080 for facilitation and that kind of work, the Neuland 00:02:45.080 --> 00:02:50.099 wedge tips are unbeatable. But the smaller ones, 00:02:50.159 --> 00:02:54.080 I prefer this fella here. And if you do order 00:02:54.080 --> 00:02:55.960 from Graphic Gear, this isn't an advert, by the 00:02:55.960 --> 00:02:57.319 way, but if you order them, you get these lovely 00:02:57.319 --> 00:03:01.360 little personal notes from the company. Very 00:03:01.360 --> 00:03:04.490 thoughtful. yeah we'll put a note we'll put a 00:03:04.490 --> 00:03:06.870 link in as well for all the australia -based 00:03:06.870 --> 00:03:09.569 artists and i might get a discount for mentioning 00:03:09.569 --> 00:03:12.590 them we'll make sure to tag them so they know 00:03:12.590 --> 00:03:16.069 that so um tell me a little bit about you like 00:03:16.069 --> 00:03:21.830 how did you what's your story so funnily enough 00:03:21.830 --> 00:03:25.370 when when i was thinking about about coming in 00:03:25.370 --> 00:03:29.110 today i was thinking about was i you know everyone 00:03:29.110 --> 00:03:32.479 says you're you're really artistic as a kid And 00:03:32.479 --> 00:03:36.659 I don't think I was. But then I started thinking 00:03:36.659 --> 00:03:40.300 back. Visuals were always important to me because 00:03:40.300 --> 00:03:42.500 I didn't read when I was young. The teachers 00:03:42.500 --> 00:03:44.740 couldn't get me to read. So one of my teachers 00:03:44.740 --> 00:03:48.620 at primary school used to draw stories for me 00:03:48.620 --> 00:03:50.780 with little stick figures. And they were about 00:03:50.780 --> 00:03:52.580 things that I was interested in at the time, 00:03:52.580 --> 00:03:55.659 like soldiers and football and this kind of stuff. 00:03:55.759 --> 00:03:57.039 And she'd draw these little personal stories. 00:03:57.159 --> 00:04:00.340 And that got me into reading. And I loved comic 00:04:00.340 --> 00:04:04.599 books, specifically Asterix the Gaul, if you 00:04:04.599 --> 00:04:09.960 know Asterix. And then I wasn't, I don't think 00:04:09.960 --> 00:04:13.460 I was a visual learner. I'm a note -taker supreme, 00:04:13.780 --> 00:04:20.959 but not visually. And I drifted out of, I had 00:04:20.959 --> 00:04:23.639 nothing to do with visualisation, although I 00:04:23.639 --> 00:04:26.300 almost became an architect, and I loved technical 00:04:26.300 --> 00:04:28.660 drawing. I ended up not going down that route, 00:04:28.699 --> 00:04:30.579 chose another route, which I kind of regret to 00:04:30.579 --> 00:04:33.519 this day. What was the other route? Project management? 00:04:33.860 --> 00:04:37.579 No, it was to do with building. Okay, still in 00:04:37.579 --> 00:04:41.279 that realm. In that realm, but not missing the 00:04:41.279 --> 00:04:44.360 creativity. And I think this is what led me back, 00:04:44.379 --> 00:04:50.139 was a need for creativity. And so, I think it 00:04:50.139 --> 00:04:53.399 was 2021, so it was in COVID because it was all 00:04:53.399 --> 00:04:58.720 virtual. I was... Getting really frustrated at 00:04:58.720 --> 00:05:02.040 the lack of cut through you get when you write 00:05:02.040 --> 00:05:08.459 blogs and stuff like this. And people just don't 00:05:08.459 --> 00:05:14.779 have the attention. And so I, it was a guy, a 00:05:14.779 --> 00:05:17.779 friend of mine, Fran, who's now out in WA. He 00:05:17.779 --> 00:05:19.459 started posting these little things on LinkedIn, 00:05:19.459 --> 00:05:23.899 these little one, little single visuals. And 00:05:23.899 --> 00:05:25.470 so I pinged him and I said. what the hell is 00:05:25.470 --> 00:05:27.269 that? And he goes, oh, I did this thing called 00:05:27.269 --> 00:05:31.290 Bicablo, which is the German codification of, 00:05:31.290 --> 00:05:35.709 you know, making visualisation simple and available 00:05:35.709 --> 00:05:39.089 to everyone. Ideas, not art, as they say. And 00:05:39.089 --> 00:05:41.990 so I did a two -day course with Mark Hundleby, 00:05:42.089 --> 00:05:44.649 who's the trainer, the Bicablo trainer in Australia, 00:05:44.889 --> 00:05:49.250 and it just blew my mind. I posted on LinkedIn, 00:05:49.250 --> 00:05:51.569 I think, and various other things like Facebook 00:05:51.569 --> 00:05:55.050 the next day with my first ever picture. And 00:05:55.050 --> 00:05:56.949 a week later, I was presenting at a town hall 00:05:56.949 --> 00:06:00.790 just to do with work. And I had this huge visual. 00:06:01.110 --> 00:06:02.850 And all of a sudden, people were just going, 00:06:02.949 --> 00:06:05.269 like, they were responding. And all of a sudden, 00:06:05.290 --> 00:06:07.189 the message that was landing on deaf ears when 00:06:07.189 --> 00:06:09.870 you were talking or showing slides, just a one 00:06:09.870 --> 00:06:12.810 -page visual was just, like, getting so much 00:06:12.810 --> 00:06:15.529 attention from people. That's incredible. Wow. 00:06:15.589 --> 00:06:20.910 It was. And, like, so it became a bit of a, I 00:06:20.910 --> 00:06:24.769 couldn't stop. i did i kind of said to myself 00:06:24.769 --> 00:06:28.189 i'm going to draw every day i almost did that 00:06:28.189 --> 00:06:30.389 not quite but for two years i almost drew every 00:06:30.389 --> 00:06:33.769 day even if it was just a little doodle and i'm 00:06:33.769 --> 00:06:36.790 going to share pretty much everything so i agree 00:06:36.790 --> 00:06:38.930 i made a commitment to myself that i would work 00:06:38.930 --> 00:06:42.529 openly and so it's quite funny now i look back 00:06:42.529 --> 00:06:44.389 and i'm like geez these are terrible but that 00:06:44.389 --> 00:06:46.569 was the journey that's amazing so you were sharing 00:06:46.569 --> 00:06:49.949 it on linkedin or was there yeah was it internal 00:06:49.949 --> 00:06:54.699 at work both okay so i i did get a bit of a name 00:06:54.699 --> 00:06:59.759 at work for i was a griller posting so i draw 00:06:59.759 --> 00:07:02.240 i draw like a poster about something and i'd 00:07:02.240 --> 00:07:05.199 stick it up in the kitchen at work around and 00:07:05.199 --> 00:07:07.379 around the place next to the lifts and so all 00:07:07.379 --> 00:07:08.980 these like nobody ever took them down they're 00:07:08.980 --> 00:07:10.759 probably well the building's not there anymore 00:07:10.759 --> 00:07:14.480 but but that's during covid so people were probably 00:07:14.480 --> 00:07:17.959 very happy to have a little bit of a you know 00:07:17.959 --> 00:07:20.519 something different happening yeah and it was 00:07:20.519 --> 00:07:22.620 great like I had a whole bunch next to the lifts 00:07:22.620 --> 00:07:25.220 and people would just be waiting for the lifts 00:07:25.220 --> 00:07:26.959 and they'd be like you could see they were engaging 00:07:26.959 --> 00:07:32.459 with the content it was work content and it was 00:07:32.459 --> 00:07:34.600 just that was quite inspiring and I was also 00:07:34.600 --> 00:07:38.319 posting on the internal work sites the workplace 00:07:38.319 --> 00:07:42.899 there and I had like One of the C -level, I won't 00:07:42.899 --> 00:07:45.360 name names, but somebody who's, you know, one 00:07:45.360 --> 00:07:48.079 of the very senior people at Macquarie would 00:07:48.079 --> 00:07:51.139 be, was pinging me going, talk to me about this. 00:07:51.459 --> 00:07:55.759 And so I got a few little gigs like, you know, 00:07:55.759 --> 00:07:59.800 sketchnoting and stuff around the place. Was 00:07:59.800 --> 00:08:02.319 there much awareness about sketchnoting before 00:08:02.319 --> 00:08:08.139 that? No, there had been a little bit. A friend 00:08:08.139 --> 00:08:12.540 of mine now, Stephen... uh steve had had done 00:08:12.540 --> 00:08:15.379 some sketch noting previously and run a couple 00:08:15.379 --> 00:08:19.680 little courses which myself and another uh graphic 00:08:19.680 --> 00:08:24.860 type uh kevin stuck we we rebooted that and uh 00:08:24.860 --> 00:08:28.319 we i think we taught sketch noting basics to 00:08:28.319 --> 00:08:30.680 like about 150 people over over a couple years 00:08:30.680 --> 00:08:36.159 um so that there had been a little bit but uh 00:08:36.159 --> 00:08:40.759 you know i it was it was my i was so into it 00:08:40.759 --> 00:08:43.480 that you know i was gathering all the anyone 00:08:43.480 --> 00:08:46.679 who had ever drawn anything was i got them posting 00:08:46.679 --> 00:08:52.600 it and it was great and uh that the the sea level 00:08:52.600 --> 00:08:56.620 person i mentioned that um i was talking to her 00:08:56.620 --> 00:08:58.799 about sustainability because i've drawn this 00:08:58.799 --> 00:09:02.620 picture and posted it and and she was she was 00:09:02.620 --> 00:09:05.480 asking questions and she sent me away with some 00:09:05.480 --> 00:09:09.830 homework can you draw this thing around sustainability 00:09:09.830 --> 00:09:14.490 in the bank. And so I went and did it. And she 00:09:14.490 --> 00:09:17.649 goes, you know, nobody ever gives me visuals. 00:09:17.710 --> 00:09:21.049 I'm a visual person. And it kind of, it left 00:09:21.049 --> 00:09:26.070 a mark because you think, you know, busy, you 00:09:26.070 --> 00:09:30.750 know, highly thought of professionals. Like, 00:09:30.769 --> 00:09:33.409 why would they be into visuals? But, you know, 00:09:33.429 --> 00:09:36.139 they're humans. They love visuals. It's actually 00:09:36.139 --> 00:09:39.500 really interesting because I can't think of anyone 00:09:39.500 --> 00:09:43.440 who doesn't say, I mean, I know it's not 100 00:09:43.440 --> 00:09:47.039 % of people are visual, but almost every client 00:09:47.039 --> 00:09:50.139 we've had has said, oh, you know, this is really 00:09:50.139 --> 00:09:52.360 good because I'm a visual person. You know, I 00:09:52.360 --> 00:09:57.700 really can get it. I'm on board. But it's often 00:09:57.700 --> 00:10:01.139 I think we find that. it's hard to get it into 00:10:01.139 --> 00:10:04.580 like get buying within an organization and it 00:10:04.580 --> 00:10:07.120 sounds like you kind of really really were a 00:10:07.120 --> 00:10:11.580 champion within like internally yeah and you 00:10:11.580 --> 00:10:14.620 know we macquarie had a tech conference and and 00:10:14.620 --> 00:10:16.200 i pulled together i think it was about 10 of 00:10:16.200 --> 00:10:20.000 us and we went to all these different um sessions 00:10:20.000 --> 00:10:23.320 and every you know people sketch noted all the 00:10:23.320 --> 00:10:26.519 different uh things and we posted them and got 00:10:26.519 --> 00:10:28.940 a great response the one thing i would say is 00:10:30.910 --> 00:10:34.570 In a big corporate organization, you will push 00:10:34.570 --> 00:10:39.750 up against things like branding. So whilst on 00:10:39.750 --> 00:10:43.289 a personal level and an informal level, people 00:10:43.289 --> 00:10:47.070 love the drawing, you're not going to, my experience 00:10:47.070 --> 00:10:52.110 was, the brand is very protected. They're not 00:10:52.110 --> 00:10:53.309 going to post it online or anything like that. 00:10:53.309 --> 00:10:59.899 Yeah, so I post on LinkedIn. i also use instagram 00:10:59.899 --> 00:11:05.059 but you know that's me outside of any but i find 00:11:05.059 --> 00:11:07.940 that these kinds of visualizations they're really 00:11:07.940 --> 00:11:11.840 useful and very valuable internally just to for 00:11:11.840 --> 00:11:15.299 everyone to just for teams to be engaged for 00:11:15.299 --> 00:11:17.519 everyone to be on the same page like you know 00:11:17.519 --> 00:11:19.820 i don't know if you've used it in meetings yeah 00:11:19.820 --> 00:11:23.080 so that's that's probably where i use it most 00:11:23.080 --> 00:11:30.019 yeah um facilitation um just shared understanding 00:11:30.019 --> 00:11:33.539 if we're brainstorming things like that. Yeah. 00:11:33.620 --> 00:11:36.200 Yeah. And do you find that engagement is higher? 00:11:36.340 --> 00:11:39.340 Oh, yeah. Deeper? Yeah. So as part of my role, 00:11:39.539 --> 00:11:43.340 I, you know, I've run a lot of retrospectives 00:11:43.340 --> 00:11:48.779 over the years and I would really use, I mean, 00:11:48.820 --> 00:11:51.440 Sarah talked about she loves the sailboat. I 00:11:51.440 --> 00:11:53.580 would never use a sailboat. I would draw something 00:11:53.580 --> 00:11:58.610 specific for that team. oh okay interesting so 00:11:58.610 --> 00:12:02.509 in context yeah totally or i don't know if you've 00:12:02.509 --> 00:12:05.429 looked through books through some of my work 00:12:05.429 --> 00:12:09.250 but i i love like pop references and movies and 00:12:09.250 --> 00:12:14.289 this stuff and so uh i quite often you know use 00:12:14.289 --> 00:12:17.509 that kind of things like harry potter retro you 00:12:17.509 --> 00:12:19.169 know these kind of things that's really great 00:12:19.169 --> 00:12:21.129 because i think most people can relate to those 00:12:21.129 --> 00:12:25.470 you know and it kind of breaks the the you know 00:12:25.470 --> 00:12:27.679 pretense of you know we're in a professional 00:12:27.679 --> 00:12:29.720 setting sometimes you really need those human 00:12:29.720 --> 00:12:33.159 stories that you relate to the most yeah i think 00:12:33.159 --> 00:12:35.279 there's i have got caught out a couple times 00:12:35.279 --> 00:12:37.639 where you you have an assumption like i think 00:12:37.639 --> 00:12:39.139 it was i did something it might have been three 00:12:39.139 --> 00:12:41.440 little pigs or something and i thought that that 00:12:41.440 --> 00:12:43.720 was a universal story apparently the teams in 00:12:43.720 --> 00:12:46.379 india didn't know the story oh that's interesting 00:12:46.379 --> 00:12:48.139 yeah i can't remember if it was the three little 00:12:48.139 --> 00:12:50.679 pigs maybe that is a universal story but i think 00:12:50.679 --> 00:12:53.230 you know the the cultural side of it you have 00:12:53.230 --> 00:12:55.049 to be able you know you can't assume that everyone 00:12:55.049 --> 00:12:57.710 has seen an Indiana Jones movie yeah that's true 00:12:57.710 --> 00:12:59.850 that's that's interesting because when we're 00:12:59.850 --> 00:13:02.409 live live graphic recording at an event or something 00:13:02.409 --> 00:13:05.529 like that often we do use pop culture references 00:13:05.529 --> 00:13:10.509 and it's not always sometimes it's because it's 00:13:10.509 --> 00:13:13.450 coming up in the conversation you know when there's 00:13:13.450 --> 00:13:15.169 a workshop something like that lots of times 00:13:15.169 --> 00:13:17.370 it's you know casual conversations so people 00:13:17.370 --> 00:13:20.529 do reference things that are quite personal but 00:13:21.870 --> 00:13:25.190 Sometimes it's just an idea that we just thought 00:13:25.190 --> 00:13:29.870 of because of our experience. I'm a big fan of 00:13:29.870 --> 00:13:33.269 Indiana Jones or Star Wars, and so I'll draw 00:13:33.269 --> 00:13:37.250 something like that. And yeah, we don't often 00:13:37.250 --> 00:13:39.309 think about it in terms of everyone needs to 00:13:39.309 --> 00:13:42.710 know it. That's interesting. I feel like it's 00:13:42.710 --> 00:13:45.059 still OK, though, because. There is an aspect 00:13:45.059 --> 00:13:47.539 of graphic recording that's very personal to 00:13:47.539 --> 00:13:50.220 the artist, right? It's kind of an art and science. 00:13:50.480 --> 00:13:52.419 So you're listening, you're synthesizing, but 00:13:52.419 --> 00:13:54.700 at the same time you're bringing your own experiences 00:13:54.700 --> 00:13:59.000 and your own hobbies and everything you enjoy 00:13:59.000 --> 00:14:01.980 into it to create a really good piece of art, 00:14:02.179 --> 00:14:05.279 right? Yeah, it's your interpretation. Yeah, 00:14:05.279 --> 00:14:10.440 yeah. So Mark, my trainer, when I did Baccablo, 00:14:10.580 --> 00:14:13.600 as part of Baccablo, the two -day course, we 00:14:13.600 --> 00:14:18.399 did a little bit of graphic recording. I still 00:14:18.399 --> 00:14:21.080 find that the hardest of all the visual arts 00:14:21.080 --> 00:14:24.259 is the real -time graphic recording. But Mark 00:14:24.259 --> 00:14:26.639 talked about, you know, don't overdo it. You 00:14:26.639 --> 00:14:30.320 just want the key points. And specifically, this 00:14:30.320 --> 00:14:33.500 clearly registered with me. He said, look for 00:14:33.500 --> 00:14:37.210 those little... human moments their sides the 00:14:37.210 --> 00:14:39.789 you know when the presenter says something off 00:14:39.789 --> 00:14:43.070 the cuff makes a joke it's like if you capture 00:14:43.070 --> 00:14:46.090 those things six months later you'll go back 00:14:46.090 --> 00:14:47.429 and you'll look at a sketchnote and you'll be 00:14:47.429 --> 00:14:50.590 like ha I remember that and it's like you know 00:14:50.590 --> 00:14:52.889 those are the human moments yeah exactly they're 00:14:52.889 --> 00:14:54.950 the most memorable moments as well so everyone 00:14:54.950 --> 00:14:56.789 there would have remembered them so they can 00:14:56.789 --> 00:14:59.629 actually act as a bit of an anchor totally and 00:14:59.629 --> 00:15:01.769 you know you think about how you would if you 00:15:01.769 --> 00:15:05.299 were recording just you know a very dry note 00:15:05.299 --> 00:15:09.500 -taking style you would you probably ignore that 00:15:09.500 --> 00:15:13.399 because it's not the content yeah true but what 00:15:13.399 --> 00:15:15.120 you know what you learn when you when you're 00:15:15.120 --> 00:15:17.639 visualizing is that's the key moment that's the 00:15:17.639 --> 00:15:20.179 anchor i guess that's the difference between 00:15:20.179 --> 00:15:23.059 note -taking where it's more like minutes and 00:15:23.059 --> 00:15:26.639 it's more objective and graphic recording where 00:15:26.639 --> 00:15:28.720 you're telling a story so it's much more emotional 00:15:28.720 --> 00:15:34.940 yeah and i i'll go back to My own experience 00:15:34.940 --> 00:15:38.600 is that six months down the line, I've got a 00:15:38.600 --> 00:15:40.840 couple in here. This is a new book, so I don't 00:15:40.840 --> 00:15:43.139 have a lot, but that was the Sydney Design Meetup. 00:15:43.539 --> 00:15:48.899 And just a couple of little things that they 00:15:48.899 --> 00:15:51.759 jumped out. So there was something about democratising 00:15:51.759 --> 00:15:55.759 optometry. So I've done Harry Potter's glasses 00:15:55.759 --> 00:15:59.279 there. And there was a thing about severed limbs. 00:15:59.679 --> 00:16:02.159 I don't know if you remember that. It was the 00:16:02.159 --> 00:16:06.059 play park, I think, wasn't it? And those are 00:16:06.059 --> 00:16:07.580 things you remember. That was really funny. Yeah. 00:16:07.879 --> 00:16:10.100 And also scary, a little bit scary. But yeah, 00:16:10.120 --> 00:16:13.080 yeah, exactly. And when you're graphic recording, 00:16:13.379 --> 00:16:16.320 actually, I'm curious because you said you were 00:16:16.320 --> 00:16:22.200 a very, like a note taker. And I also, when I 00:16:22.200 --> 00:16:24.419 was growing up, I was a very good note taker. 00:16:24.500 --> 00:16:27.779 So I would pride myself on not missing one word. 00:16:27.940 --> 00:16:30.440 Like I can actually write exactly what everyone 00:16:30.440 --> 00:16:33.779 was saying, right? How did you move from that 00:16:33.779 --> 00:16:36.539 to, you know, you kind of need to let go a little 00:16:36.539 --> 00:16:39.080 bit, right? I've not totally moved, I'll be honest 00:16:39.080 --> 00:16:41.460 with you. You can knock this off the camera later, 00:16:41.600 --> 00:16:46.720 but I still find myself, like this is an online 00:16:46.720 --> 00:16:49.500 book that makes it easier, but I still have, 00:16:49.929 --> 00:16:53.289 books of line notes they do tend to have little 00:16:53.289 --> 00:16:58.210 doodles in them I sign all my work ATW which 00:16:58.210 --> 00:17:00.549 is a thousand words that was what it stood for 00:17:00.549 --> 00:17:02.950 and that was as much a challenge for me as it 00:17:02.950 --> 00:17:07.569 was some kind of you know name it was a challenge 00:17:07.569 --> 00:17:09.809 for myself to go I can either write a thousand 00:17:09.809 --> 00:17:16.599 words or I can do some graphic work and some 00:17:16.599 --> 00:17:19.380 easter eggs, visual easter eggs as we call them. 00:17:20.359 --> 00:17:24.079 So I've not totally got over the note taking 00:17:24.079 --> 00:17:26.880 yet. Yeah, I totally get it. I understand. But 00:17:26.880 --> 00:17:32.920 yeah, I find it interesting because I think it's 00:17:32.920 --> 00:17:34.700 definitely a different, like you're using a different 00:17:34.700 --> 00:17:38.460 approach because when you're note taking you're 00:17:38.460 --> 00:17:40.920 just kind of downloading everything exactly as 00:17:40.920 --> 00:17:43.160 it is but when you're drawing you're kind of 00:17:44.199 --> 00:17:48.759 processing and thinking a bit more and you're 00:17:48.759 --> 00:17:52.779 yeah and that's that's exhausting and that's 00:17:52.779 --> 00:17:55.960 really hard to hold those you know hold the listen 00:17:55.960 --> 00:17:57.640 in one ear and pause you're still processing 00:17:57.640 --> 00:18:00.619 the previous piece and trying to come up with 00:18:00.619 --> 00:18:04.299 something creative there but I do think you're 00:18:04.299 --> 00:18:09.039 it is an act of creation and I think that's that's 00:18:09.039 --> 00:18:11.700 the the real difference is that you you're putting 00:18:11.700 --> 00:18:15.500 so much energy into it Even something as, you 00:18:15.500 --> 00:18:20.799 know, a little teddy bear in a box or the L90 00:18:20.799 --> 00:18:25.000 bus here going up to Palm Beach. That was Lara's 00:18:25.000 --> 00:18:29.359 when she did her talk at Think Visual. You put 00:18:29.359 --> 00:18:33.640 so much energy into the process that you are 00:18:33.640 --> 00:18:37.380 listening really hard. So I think you compare 00:18:37.380 --> 00:18:40.980 that to just scribing line for line. It's just 00:18:40.980 --> 00:18:43.579 going. going over your head yeah yeah you just 00:18:43.579 --> 00:18:46.339 have to kind of read it again later yeah and 00:18:46.339 --> 00:18:48.559 you know i'm not saying you can't take stuff 00:18:48.559 --> 00:18:51.680 in like that but i come back to notes six months 00:18:51.680 --> 00:18:53.740 later and it's it's lost on me i come back to 00:18:53.740 --> 00:18:56.160 a picture six months later and i'm like oh yeah 00:18:56.160 --> 00:19:00.779 so what's the biggest thing you want to bring 00:19:00.779 --> 00:19:03.779 out of visual thinking like your practice of 00:19:03.779 --> 00:19:07.099 visual thinking in your own context or in your 00:19:07.099 --> 00:19:13.329 own career so whilst i use it in my job as an 00:19:13.329 --> 00:19:18.650 agile coach. For me, the biggest thing is I'm 00:19:18.650 --> 00:19:26.269 an activist. I read deeply and think deeply about 00:19:26.269 --> 00:19:29.930 what I would call the meta -crisis, the big wicked 00:19:29.930 --> 00:19:33.690 problems of our time. And for me, visualization 00:19:33.690 --> 00:19:37.490 is fundamental to that. So I started out trying 00:19:37.490 --> 00:19:41.529 to... draw these interlocking systems and it's 00:19:41.529 --> 00:19:46.150 just too big but the the visualization helped 00:19:46.150 --> 00:19:49.089 me get my head around you know the relationships 00:19:49.089 --> 00:19:53.089 between systems and and the interplay between 00:19:53.089 --> 00:19:59.369 systems and then how I try to how I try to articulate 00:19:59.369 --> 00:20:01.869 that is the real challenge and that's probably 00:20:01.869 --> 00:20:03.710 where I'm going to go with with the talk that 00:20:03.710 --> 00:20:07.359 we're going to do is How do you communicate huge, 00:20:07.380 --> 00:20:13.019 huge subjects in one visual? It's not easy. And 00:20:13.019 --> 00:20:17.400 so I started out trying to draw everything and 00:20:17.400 --> 00:20:22.819 my evolution has led me to little moments. So 00:20:22.819 --> 00:20:27.140 I tend to now draw small pictures as opposed 00:20:27.140 --> 00:20:31.559 to big, overblown visuals that try and connect 00:20:31.559 --> 00:20:35.240 everything. Now I'm tending to... to pick up 00:20:35.240 --> 00:20:39.039 on a small moment. So I recently did a bunch 00:20:39.039 --> 00:20:42.500 of, I think, six maybe cartoons. I've never done 00:20:42.500 --> 00:20:45.200 a cartoon strip. So I did this, created these 00:20:45.200 --> 00:20:47.339 characters called Sushi and Sprat. And it was 00:20:47.339 --> 00:20:49.500 all about essentially what the plastics are doing 00:20:49.500 --> 00:20:53.440 to the ocean. And it was little moments to try 00:20:53.440 --> 00:20:56.839 and articulate big problems. And I don't know 00:20:56.839 --> 00:20:59.940 if you're, I'm a bit of a musician and there's 00:20:59.940 --> 00:21:01.339 about to be a word for this in German. I should 00:21:01.339 --> 00:21:03.400 have looked it up. But if you're familiar with 00:21:03.400 --> 00:21:07.670 Billy Bragg's music, He sings these songs that 00:21:07.670 --> 00:21:11.250 are little kitchen sink dramas, little personal 00:21:11.250 --> 00:21:14.569 stories, but he's telling the big systemic problem. 00:21:14.950 --> 00:21:18.910 He's talking about the big cultural thing that 00:21:18.910 --> 00:21:21.930 this exists within. That's very interesting. 00:21:22.049 --> 00:21:24.829 That's cool. It sounds like it actually has more 00:21:24.829 --> 00:21:26.809 impact than trying to tell the whole story because 00:21:26.809 --> 00:21:31.950 that would be very overwhelming. Yeah. So that's 00:21:31.950 --> 00:21:37.799 what you want to do. I still do, I still occasionally 00:21:37.799 --> 00:21:40.599 go back to those kind of big relationship pictures. 00:21:40.779 --> 00:21:45.880 But what I've found is that it is overwhelming 00:21:45.880 --> 00:21:50.740 and you can't do it justice. Complex systems 00:21:50.740 --> 00:21:56.119 are so, the relationships are, there's so many 00:21:56.119 --> 00:21:58.400 more relationships than you can even understand. 00:21:58.920 --> 00:22:03.589 And so I think. trying to visualise all of them 00:22:03.589 --> 00:22:06.250 is a redundant task anyway because you're going 00:22:06.250 --> 00:22:08.670 to miss some just through your own lack of knowledge. 00:22:08.869 --> 00:22:10.849 Yeah, that's interesting. I think what you're 00:22:10.849 --> 00:22:12.750 trying to do with those little stories is very 00:22:12.750 --> 00:22:16.269 important. Have you heard of systems thinking? 00:22:16.670 --> 00:22:19.809 Yeah. Yeah, so I think systems thinking definitely 00:22:19.809 --> 00:22:23.710 makes use of visual thinking to try to tell those 00:22:23.710 --> 00:22:27.230 really complex stories and complex systems. But 00:22:27.230 --> 00:22:29.849 I think the biggest role visual thinking plays 00:22:29.849 --> 00:22:35.319 is... collaboration so being able to bring all 00:22:35.319 --> 00:22:38.059 the different voices all the different people 00:22:38.059 --> 00:22:41.259 who do different roles or different aspects of 00:22:41.259 --> 00:22:45.200 the system together to be able to visualize it 00:22:45.200 --> 00:22:49.839 and bring it all into okay what's the biggest 00:22:49.839 --> 00:22:52.200 big picture and then how do we zoom in on on 00:22:52.200 --> 00:22:55.200 those little things but it is definitely a big 00:22:55.200 --> 00:23:03.410 a very big project yeah it is and so i i kind 00:23:03.410 --> 00:23:07.430 of i when you're talking to when sarah was giving 00:23:07.430 --> 00:23:10.650 a talk she was talking about uh was it venn diagrams 00:23:10.650 --> 00:23:15.029 and stuff yeah and i i sort of see i see activism 00:23:15.029 --> 00:23:18.950 in three ways this is just my view of it so i 00:23:18.950 --> 00:23:21.390 see there's it starts there's the first thing 00:23:21.390 --> 00:23:25.869 is self so like what is my own education like 00:23:26.299 --> 00:23:29.279 what is my own actions that I can take. At the 00:23:29.279 --> 00:23:34.259 other end of the scale, there's how people come 00:23:34.259 --> 00:23:40.400 together, so movements. So when I'm doing a lot 00:23:40.400 --> 00:23:43.940 of my visualisation around things like the Metacrisis, 00:23:43.980 --> 00:23:47.119 I'm targeting this space. I'm trying to get people 00:23:47.119 --> 00:23:50.880 thinking about topics, you know, plastic in the 00:23:50.880 --> 00:23:53.900 ocean, whatever it may be. But then in the middle 00:23:53.900 --> 00:23:58.250 here, there's community. And I know a lot of 00:23:58.250 --> 00:24:01.250 the work that you and Alan do so beautifully 00:24:01.250 --> 00:24:06.410 is around community. And so I think I tend to 00:24:06.410 --> 00:24:08.789 draw either for myself or for the movements, 00:24:08.869 --> 00:24:12.589 but I think there's also, there's probably, I 00:24:12.589 --> 00:24:14.829 need to be more active in the community, but 00:24:14.829 --> 00:24:17.170 also that will probably lead me to drawing more 00:24:17.170 --> 00:24:20.569 at a community level. So that's just how I see 00:24:20.569 --> 00:24:24.630 activism as those three. Maybe they're, I don't 00:24:24.630 --> 00:24:25.970 know if they're interrelated or whatever. Yeah, 00:24:25.970 --> 00:24:27.849 I was just going to ask if they somehow overlap. 00:24:28.150 --> 00:24:29.670 Well, they definitely overlap. Whether they're 00:24:29.670 --> 00:24:32.589 subset of each other, I'm not 100 % sure. I don't 00:24:32.589 --> 00:24:34.750 think they are because I think, yeah, so it's 00:24:34.750 --> 00:24:38.470 probably, Sarah will be really upset with my 00:24:38.470 --> 00:24:40.309 rubbish Venn diagrams, but it's probably something 00:24:40.309 --> 00:24:44.369 like that. And communities in the middle. I think 00:24:44.369 --> 00:24:47.549 it is. I think it, because it's both macro and 00:24:47.549 --> 00:24:50.369 it's human interaction too. It's kind of like 00:24:50.369 --> 00:24:52.500 they're leading into each other. Yeah. Because 00:24:52.500 --> 00:24:55.920 you can't start a movement by yourself and you 00:24:55.920 --> 00:24:58.880 need a community. But to start a community, you 00:24:58.880 --> 00:25:02.140 need the self. Yeah. So, I mean, I think it all 00:25:02.140 --> 00:25:04.759 starts with self -education and with passion. 00:25:07.180 --> 00:25:13.279 And with action, you know, how can I live my 00:25:13.279 --> 00:25:16.950 life in a way that is authentic to... creating 00:25:16.950 --> 00:25:19.450 the systems in the future that I want for my 00:25:19.450 --> 00:25:24.710 kids and for myself. So I think it starts with 00:25:24.710 --> 00:25:27.650 yourself and you know if we were training leadership 00:25:27.650 --> 00:25:29.769 teams we'd probably have that same line as well 00:25:29.769 --> 00:25:35.269 for coaching leadership teams. But me tilting 00:25:35.269 --> 00:25:38.130 at windmills is a redundant process. Well it's 00:25:38.130 --> 00:25:42.170 not redundant but it has little reach. If you 00:25:42.170 --> 00:25:46.599 can build movements around these ideas then that's 00:25:46.599 --> 00:25:49.200 when we'll get change we'll get societal change 00:25:49.200 --> 00:25:53.480 and we'll start moving the systems to to be more 00:25:53.480 --> 00:25:57.660 fit for purpose amazing yeah do you have an easy 00:25:57.660 --> 00:26:03.720 job easy job yeah big job um do you have i guess 00:26:03.720 --> 00:26:07.019 as we wrap up do you have any advice for people 00:26:07.019 --> 00:26:10.799 who are who are in a similar position um and 00:26:10.799 --> 00:26:13.440 maybe in a big corporation who they themselves 00:26:13.440 --> 00:26:16.440 see the value of visual thinking but they don't 00:26:16.440 --> 00:26:20.019 know how to perhaps or how would they actually 00:26:20.019 --> 00:26:22.940 start starting a movement within their organization 00:26:22.940 --> 00:26:30.720 so it's specific to visual thinking um you need 00:26:30.720 --> 00:26:34.279 the courage to share i think i think you i the 00:26:34.279 --> 00:26:36.839 stats i don't know what the stats are everyone 00:26:36.839 --> 00:26:39.559 has different opinions but most people have are 00:26:39.559 --> 00:26:44.920 visual in some nature yeah and People respond 00:26:44.920 --> 00:26:50.980 to visuals. But lots of people, even if they 00:26:50.980 --> 00:26:52.880 doodle on their own notes, don't share them. 00:26:53.759 --> 00:26:57.059 So the advice I would give is start sharing, 00:26:57.099 --> 00:27:00.160 even if you think it's embarrassing, that little 00:27:00.160 --> 00:27:05.480 stick figure that you did. You share with your 00:27:05.480 --> 00:27:09.079 team. You put a couple little visual Easter eggs 00:27:09.079 --> 00:27:12.440 in your meeting notes and share with your team. 00:27:13.019 --> 00:27:16.880 people will respond and from there it's about 00:27:16.880 --> 00:27:22.579 dropping your ego and just it's you know i see 00:27:22.579 --> 00:27:25.039 some of the visual artists around and i'm thoroughly 00:27:25.039 --> 00:27:27.819 embarrassed at my sketches but it's about communication 00:27:27.819 --> 00:27:33.920 it's not about um the best visuals um so if you 00:27:33.920 --> 00:27:37.700 can communicate with your visuals then you're 00:27:37.700 --> 00:27:39.579 doing everyone a favor including yourself i think 00:27:39.579 --> 00:27:43.960 so don't be just share and you'll get that response 00:27:43.960 --> 00:27:47.900 and and you know you might build other people 00:27:47.900 --> 00:27:52.400 might start sharing theirs i i love that so basically 00:27:52.400 --> 00:27:56.240 you're you're being a bit vulnerable you're allowing 00:27:56.240 --> 00:27:58.599 yourself to be vulnerable and then other people 00:27:58.599 --> 00:28:00.940 will just kind of be able to open up because 00:28:00.940 --> 00:28:05.039 of that yeah and you know the i think vulnerability 00:28:05.039 --> 00:28:08.420 is a great word for this like you know any form 00:28:08.420 --> 00:28:11.019 of creativity but visualization you're putting 00:28:11.019 --> 00:28:15.569 yourself out there It's an imperfect art. You're 00:28:15.569 --> 00:28:19.130 never finished, but you have to share it at some 00:28:19.130 --> 00:28:22.150 point. And I think we judge ourselves too much. 00:28:22.390 --> 00:28:24.470 I think you're right. It's actually about thinking 00:28:24.470 --> 00:28:28.009 and about communicating. And I love your drawings, 00:28:28.069 --> 00:28:31.230 by the way. Everyone has a style and it's very 00:28:31.230 --> 00:28:34.670 unique, but we're very tempted to judge ourselves 00:28:34.670 --> 00:28:37.769 against others and kind of put ourselves in like, 00:28:37.910 --> 00:28:42.319 oh, no, I need to get to this level. it's just 00:28:42.319 --> 00:28:44.420 about going back to that child and kind of letting 00:28:44.420 --> 00:28:48.240 go being like um you know whatever comes out 00:28:48.240 --> 00:28:50.500 that's what i have at the moment yeah i guess 00:28:50.500 --> 00:28:53.140 that's what opens up for improvement yeah the 00:28:53.140 --> 00:28:57.259 the analogy i would use is you go like you go 00:28:57.259 --> 00:28:59.759 to like a campsite and there's somebody has a 00:28:59.759 --> 00:29:03.140 guitar yep and they play a little song on the 00:29:03.140 --> 00:29:06.900 guitar and they're probably a million miles away 00:29:06.900 --> 00:29:08.799 from being a professional musician but in the 00:29:08.799 --> 00:29:12.230 moment It's authentic, it's beautiful, and people 00:29:12.230 --> 00:29:14.849 sing along with them. And I think when it comes 00:29:14.849 --> 00:29:17.089 to visualisation, that's kind of where I look 00:29:17.089 --> 00:29:19.509 at some of the work and I'm like, I'm miles away 00:29:19.509 --> 00:29:21.890 from that. But then I have people come up to 00:29:21.890 --> 00:29:23.569 me and say, she should do this for a living. 00:29:23.630 --> 00:29:27.130 And I'm like, I'm rubbish. But again, I think 00:29:27.130 --> 00:29:29.390 it comes back to what we try to achieve. We're 00:29:29.390 --> 00:29:32.329 not here to make beautiful art. We're here to 00:29:32.329 --> 00:29:36.869 communicate. To achieve our purpose, to make 00:29:36.869 --> 00:29:39.640 change through. Through visual thinking, right? 00:29:40.019 --> 00:29:43.579 Yeah, and you don't have to be an artist to do 00:29:43.579 --> 00:29:47.180 that. I mean, we've got Alan here who is an artist, 00:29:47.299 --> 00:29:49.839 but not all of us come from an artistic background. 00:29:50.480 --> 00:29:53.720 That's okay. I think that's healthy. Yeah, I 00:29:53.720 --> 00:29:57.079 think Alan would say the same thing. Well, thank 00:29:57.079 --> 00:29:59.900 you, Ewan. If people want to find you online 00:29:59.900 --> 00:30:03.259 or connect with you, where should they go? So 00:30:03.259 --> 00:30:09.920 the two main places I play is LinkedIn. And these 00:30:09.920 --> 00:30:14.759 days I'm mainly focused there on the Metacrisis, 00:30:14.759 --> 00:30:23.819 but also some agile work on LinkedIn. And Instagram, 00:30:24.039 --> 00:30:28.599 ATW Visual is my little name, a thousand words. 00:30:28.759 --> 00:30:33.500 And that's... It's a lot of the same content, 00:30:33.640 --> 00:30:36.160 but I do post some things there that are probably 00:30:36.160 --> 00:30:40.599 not applicable for LinkedIn. Just a quick story 00:30:40.599 --> 00:30:43.240 to finish. The reason I chose not to use my own 00:30:43.240 --> 00:30:45.619 name was because I thought I was going to be 00:30:45.619 --> 00:30:51.420 this political cartoonist. And I spent two months 00:30:51.420 --> 00:30:54.779 drawing Scott Morrisons. I had thousands and 00:30:54.779 --> 00:30:58.480 thousands of Scott Morrisons. And thinking I'm 00:30:58.480 --> 00:31:03.019 going to destroy this idiot politician. But I 00:31:03.019 --> 00:31:05.519 started thinking of ideas and I couldn't even 00:31:05.519 --> 00:31:08.019 come up with anything. The reality was so crazy 00:31:08.019 --> 00:31:09.839 of what was happening at the time. I was just 00:31:09.839 --> 00:31:12.480 like, I can't even do justice to the satire of 00:31:12.480 --> 00:31:15.299 this. So that's why I chose a name that wasn't 00:31:15.299 --> 00:31:18.559 me. I thought I'd better separate the professional 00:31:18.559 --> 00:31:24.319 and the personal. But to be honest, I just post 00:31:24.319 --> 00:31:27.440 the same things mainly. It's a good story. Also 00:31:27.440 --> 00:31:29.539 a good name. I like a thousand words. It sounds 00:31:29.539 --> 00:31:32.819 like it challenges you to just kind of keep going 00:31:32.819 --> 00:31:35.619 as well. So we will link to all these in the 00:31:35.619 --> 00:31:38.599 notes and people can maybe hopefully connect 00:31:38.599 --> 00:31:42.019 with you. Thank you for joining us. Thanks for 00:31:42.019 --> 00:31:42.380 having me.