I had a boss once call me up and say, when I
first started reporting to him, calls me up and
says, who do you want to fire? And I was kind
of taken back by that comment. And I said, I
don't want to fire anybody. Hey folks, welcome
to good news York. I'm Matt major from clickstream
studios. We are having a great time I love this
set. We keep we keep using this set over and
over and over you're not gonna realize that we
have a whole other Slew of different options,
but you're gonna see those soon because there's
lots of awesome things going on. Shout out to
Danny and Noah, if you caught yesterday's episode
of GNY. It was a great one. Welcome, Noah, the
newest member of the team. Lots of cool things
happening. But speaking of cool things happening,
we've got a gentleman here who is one of the
newest content creators on our roster here at
Clickstream Studios. He came to us and he said,
you know what? I got this great podcast idea.
And we said, that is a great idea. And and we've
rolled into making some episodes that you'll
be able to see here. Let's go ahead and introduce
yourself, sir, and tell us what you're all about.
Thanks, man. I really appreciate it to initiate
it. I brought you, you know, are one of our bad
bosses, the podcast hats. Sweet. So came up with
this concept after a career at Syracuse University.
Thirty six years, thirty five in management.
and director 26 years as a director. One of the
things over the years that I kind of looked at
was what makes a manager effective, what makes
him good, what makes him bad. Had some really
good bosses, but had some... bad bosses. So obviously,
bad bosses affect all of us more than good bosses
do in all likelihood. I started to really look
into it and realized from talking to people that
there's not a lot of training out there. There's
not a lot going on as far as what companies are
doing, and I think they've gotten away from it
even more. As far as you know bad bosses are
concerned as a concept what we want to try to
accomplish is You know, we want to educate people
we want to have fun We want to talk about bad
bosses, but we also want to talk about good bosses
and what makes a good bosses And what makes a
bad boss? So that's really the lesson ultimately
the right is right much as we call it bad bosses
Really? The the goal is to get to a point where
people are are not bad bosses, right? Absolutely.
Yeah, and how do we get there? So, you know as
I've gone around and started this, I've talked
to everybody, not everybody, but I've talked
to people in many different industries. So from
fast food to actual food service, you know, restaurant
and fast food, they're a little different animals.
So people need to realize that there's challenges
there. Also retail. from the larger retail stores
to the smaller retail stores. You know, the other
day I witnessed in a smaller retail store, you
know, a manager, you know, dressing down an employee
with people all around. And ironically, I had
this on and I was looking at the supervisor like,
do you not get this concept? And so obviously,
obviously people, yeah, people don't get the
concept. So, you know, what kind of training
is available? So that's, you know, really what
we want to look at and what, what do organizations
do when they promote somebody. What they frequently
do not do is prepare them to be a manager, to
be a supervisor. So, you know, one of the things
that I have become very fond of is legislation.
As I looked at some of the laws, not sure everybody
knows this, but every state in America has a
law called you work at the will of your employer.
So that's at will employment, right at will employment.
New York is obviously one of the stricter states,
like we are with most of our laws. That law has
been on the books for over 100 years. And, you
know, from my personal perspective, and I think
once it gets out there, and I'd love to see the
governor and the state legislature really take
this issue up, I think it's time we change this
law. This law is outdated. It protects the employer
more than the employee. When people are wrongfully
terminated or pushed out of an organization,
frequently when you seek legal counsel, They'll
tell you, well, you know, New York's a work at
will of the employer law. Well, that doesn't
make it right. So I really think that the times
have changed and it's something that we should
take a look at. I'd also like to see... And Joe,
just for a second, for folks that don't know,
in a nutshell, the at will employment basically
means like an employer can get rid of anybody
at any time for pretty much any reason, right?
Is that... A fair description. Yeah, that's absolutely
correct. Of course, there are other laws. You
know, you can't fire somebody based on their
sexual orientation and their ethnic background
and all of that and religion. All those protected.
However, employees... employers always find ways
around different things. So there's there's some
other legislation that not only would I like
to see that change, but I'd like to see some
new legislation. So one of the things is I've
read and I've talked to people and one of the
series that, you know, I started when I started
the podcast, we did one on law enforcement. So
leadership and law enforcement. So I'll go to
my grave saying that law enforcement is an area
that people underappreciate. And one of the things
that law enforcement has done effectively over
the years is that there's supervisors their sergeants,
their lieutenants, their captains, they have
to take a test. It's a kind of a screening process
that a lot of people don't realize and may not
be familiar with. Well, what if we took that
model and we adopted that to every industry?
So I'm not saying you have to take a test to
get promoted, but say you get promoted. Now,
I've worked for people who've had master's degrees,
MBAs, and I've worked for people who didn't have
any degrees at all. And I don't think it's something
that's necessarily comes with an MBA or doesn't
come with an MBA. So I think it's incumbent on
employers today to come up with something similar.
The concept that I had is any company that's
employed 50 or more employees, regardless of
what the industry might be, they should be mandated
by the state to have a program to make sure that
the supervisor is effective and is, for lack
of a better term, a good boss, right? You don't
want to have a bad boss. We want to have a good
boss. So what my concept is, and what I really
hope the state legislature will take a look at
and the government will take a look at, is legislating
a program that each employers should have to
make supervisors effective and to make them good
supervisors. So we don't have to have a bad boss
podcast. We can have a total good boss. How do
you do that? How do you achieve that? So how
do you achieve that? Not a pass or fail test,
but a test that kind of evaluates where your
strengths and weaknesses are before you actually
leading or managing people. Things that are important.
Sounds like something that should be done as
Upper leadership is deciding who might be moved
up or put in these positions, you know Sounds
like that's the type of evaluation you might
want to know Before you put them in that position,
right? I would say absolutely yes. And not necessarily
to disqualify because you can develop. Correct.
Correct. And that's really, you bring up a good
point. That's really one thing that I want to
resonate is that we're not looking to disqualify
people. I've worked for good bosses and I've
worked for bad bosses. Now, even the bad bosses,
I saw glimmers of goodness in them. Yeah. So
if we could, we want to make those bosses good
bosses. And I put myself out there. There are
things that I did early on in my career and throughout
my career that I'm certainly not proud of that
probably some training or some mentoring would
have made me much more effective or made my management
skills a little bit different. So I think that
we should come up with a plan that every company
has to have and has to prove that they have a
program to develop. people. So, you know, one
of the things that I believe that I was talking
to your team about is very strongly is that every
person should have good parents. Every child
deserves good parents. And in connection with
that, I believe that every employee should have
a good boss. And sometimes I think they go hand
in hand because if you're brought up by a bad
parent, you're going to bring that into your
adulthood and you could end up in a management
position. or you could not. And that plays out.
So I really would like to see more emphasis on
developing good bosses and looking at the actual
things that make a good boss a good boss. Emotional
intelligence, compassion, empathy. And then you
could certainly talk to people. So I was a manager
at a very young age, say 24 years old, I think
it was. So when you're 24, when you're 34, when
you're 44, You know, you have different life
experiences. Those different life experiences
you also affect how you manage, how you lead.
Within that context, there's a whole bunch of
variables that I really would love to get into
and that having guests on and talking about their
different experiences and in the different industries.
And one of the other things that, you know, I
think is critically important is bad bosses lead
to unionization. Now, I'm not pro or against
union, you know, either way, but I do understand
the reason why they exist. I was a labor relations
manager. I want to plug OCC here. Anadaga Community
College had a great program of labor studies
back in the 80s. And it was a great program because
it really taught us where labor unions came from,
how they started, and what American workers went
through. before labor unions came into power.
So I asked the labor unions, the AFL, CIOs, the
Teamsters, the communications workers of America,
the auto workers of America, I know you're at
the table, I know you're out there, I know you're
visible, but are you looking at the law that
the employer work at the will of the employer?
You know, it's over 100 years old. Why aren't
people talking about it? And I really think that,
you know, I'm a son of a union man. My father
climbed telephone poles for a living. He was
a communications worker of America. So I have
a deep appreciation. Back in the 70s, they were
on strike for seven months, you know, out on
the old picket line, which, you know, probably
a lot of people aren't familiar with, you know,
all the guys huddled around the barrels, you
know, out there. And what were they trying to
do? They were trying to get a better work environment,
better wages, better health benefits, you know,
and a better work environment. at the way they're
actually being treated. Well, like you said,
unions have done a lot of really great things
for people. They've only had to, right? It's
not necessarily a charity. They are a result
of companies that didn't know how to treat their
employees well without making them fight for
it, unfortunately. I totally agree with that
statement. I think everything you're talking
about, that's the part that I find a little bit
ironic, especially as a business owner myself,
is everything you're talking about, obviously
from the worker's perspective, which is... Ideal
but at the same time like this is all positives
for the business the business runs smoother.
It's more profitable You have less turnover all
these things if you don't have these these Folks
that are just not effective and our bad leaders
are pushing out good people. That's true many
cases You know one of the things that I'll share
with you is you know I had a boss once call me
up and say you know when I first started reporting
to him Calls me up says who do you want to fire?
You know and I was kind of taken back by that
comment and I said I don't want to fire anybody
So unfortunately when you're in a management
position, you know, you do have to fire people.
Yeah But you should never feel good about it.
Whatever the circumstances were, if it was an
egregious violation of the company. But at the
end of the day, when I did have to do that, I
went home and I thought about that person, how
it affected their life, and what it was going
to mean for them to move forward. So I never
managed or I never looked at who can I fire today.
And to hear that from another leader, it's like,
what means you come to that, that it's all about
firing people? It's not always about firing people.
It's about empowering people. And you can empower
them through educating them. So you could do
that with your staff, and you could do that with
your management team. One of the other things
that I think is probably something just from
talking to people and going into different establishments
in the past several months and talking to managers,
sometimes a manager wants to be a good boss,
but their boss doesn't allow them to be a good
boss. And it's very frustrating to work for somebody
who isn't giving you the tools that you need
to be a good boss to your people So I feel real
passionate about it. I think I think it's something
that we is going to catch on I'd love to travel
the country. I'd love to go to every state talking
about bad bosses You know just from talking to
people randomly Everyone is some of the stories.
I've already heard some of them are horrible.
Yeah, absolutely horrible Yeah, it's incredible
really. And on that topic, I'll just mention
because it's a great segue. You can actually
be a guest on the Bad Bosses podcast if you have
some stories that are. are horrible, or just
good lessons that should be shared. Now, of course,
we're not going to name names or do anything
like that. We'll anonymize everything and make
it there. But I think these stories are, A, they're
interesting, and also just what great examples
of what not to do, right? Because I think what
you find in some of these that's very interesting
is you'll hear these stories in the build -up
You'll start to recognize things like oh, wait
a minute. I've had a boss who did that thing,
correct? I had a boss that did that thing They
never went this far, but we were clearly on the
same path and this is actually, you know I think
this is so egregious and then I'm realizing that
I experienced something, you know similar But
it gives you that just incredible stories and
then a great place to learn and go from there
so Joe if you could just while I'm on that give
your email address because if folks want to be
a part of this show they want to be a guest and
sit down with Joe and talk about their employment
experiences absolutely our website is up and
we'd love to hear from you if you want to be
on the podcast tell us your story good bad I
definitely would like to hear good stories yeah
I definitely want to hear the bad ones because
there's both so just email us at info at bad
bosses org And we'd be more than happy to follow
up with you. And of course, we're going to go
through a screening process for some of the things
you identified. We want to make sure that we
don't want to throw any companies under the bus.
But what we do want to do is we want to get the
message out there that we need to turn the tide
and we need to create an environment where we're
creating good bosses. And I want to give a shout
out to one organization here in town, which is
the Leadership Creator Syracuse Organization.
They're a great organization. University has
been a big it was a big supporter of them. I
believe they still are. I had the opportunity
because the person that I was working for at
the time, you know, thought it was a good program.
He sent a lot of his team there and they do a
great job. I think that everybody should take
a look at their website. And if you're a company
and you want to create good leaders within your
company, leadership, greater Syracuse is an organization
you really should take a look at. Is that the
program that it goes over a series of months?
It does. There's kind of a a cohort that graduates
every year sort of thing? It absolutely does,
yeah. And I am a graduate of that program. And
I'm glad you asked that question because, you
know, one of the things that I... Not just a
one -day seminar. It's not. So, you know, when
I went, I was probably been in management, you
know, probably at that time 25 years. You can
always learn something new from somebody else.
And one of the things that I loved about the
program was the diversity of the program. Everybody,
different ages, different backgrounds, different
ethnic backgrounds. And we all came together
and you would be surprised how much people actually
have in common. And I, you know, leadership grade
at Syracuse is actually a great example of what
companies could do internally. You know, back
in the 80s and early 90s when I was a young manager
at the university, they had a program that was
started by managers and it was called Manager's
Roundtable. And it really was just a bunch of
managers who got together and talked about some
of the challenges. People think that when you
become a manager, all of a sudden you know everything
and you don't. And the other thing that people
fail to realize is that not only don't you know
anything, but you have a life as well outside
of your employment. And there are things that
affect you just like it affects divorces, deaths,
sickness. You're also a person. Right? Yeah,
you're also a person. So there's a lot of room
here for improvement. And that's really what
I want to do. I really want to make a difference.
One of my idols is John Walsh. You know, a lot
of people may be familiar with his story, some
may not. You know, John Walsh took a tragic situation,
you know, where his son was abducted and murdered,
and he created America's most wanted. And look
at what he was able to do with that. So, obviously
not to that level. But certainly, if you go around
and you talk to people, you will find within
five people someone who left the job. because
of their boss. Oh, yeah. Because of the stress,
because of the anxiety, because of the mental
anguish. 100%. So what can we do to change it?
I think there's a lot we can do to change it.
And I'm hoping his podcast can do some of that
for us. I think you're definitely on the right
path. This is a great thing. I do want to give
one other plug, if we could. Joe, you mentioned
the leadership group here in Syracuse. If you're
not in Syracuse, or even if you are, our mutual
friend Mark O'Donnell from Operations Excellence.
Absolutely. This is a lot of what he does, actually,
as he goes. into companies and you know one of
the ways he describes it is you know he'll take
folks that you want to move up in the company
but aren't quite ready to go in those positions
and he's got whole programs to help develop future
leaders in organizations and he's got some great
track records of organizations he's worked with
where he's put dozens of folks through the plan
and they've been able to successfully move them
up in the organization and you know so there's
things programs like this that individuals out
there if you you realize the value in this as
a company management. look into it, because there
are options for you to do that. And I've watched
some of his videos, and he's very good. And speaking
of plugs, my old boss actually does a little
consulting, too. It's called Callisto Consulting.
So he was a former sheriff's department employee
and also the chief of the public safety department
at Syracuse University before becoming a senior
vice president. Great leadership skills, offers
the same kind of thing, you know, training, more
specific to law enforcement, but very applicable
across the board. give him a plug as well. And
I'm actually going to link off of our website
to both Mark's website and to Tony's website,
Callisto Consulting. That's great. Joe, I want
to ask you a couple more questions. Sure. And
I'll let you get out of here. We originally talked
about and you talked about some of the different
industries and restaurants and whatever. Just
off the top of your head, this doesn't have to
be scientific. I won't hold you to this. But
what industry would you say has the most bad
bosses? Wow I Guess the best way to answer that
is the industry that does the least amount of
training, okay? But out of the ones you've been
talking to you think because here I'll tell you
and I'll tell you where I'm at with this is from
The experiences of folks I've talked to for my
whole life basically, it seems to me like restaurants
are ground zero for some of the worst in management.
I would tend to agree with you because I think
the most of the feedback that I've gotten lately
is from the restaurant industry as well as the
retail industry. Like I spoke to a manager in
retail, I won't name the store, and I said, you
know, what kind of training do they do? And they
said to me, what do you mean? You know I said
well when you became a manager would they do
well? They stuck me in a store with another manager
for two weeks and said here you go And then they
gave me a store here's how to do the paperwork
so you you know if you've been in management
There's disability law. There's workman's comp
law There's things you can say in interviews
that you shouldn't say and that you can say questions
You can ask none of that training went on and
then you know this how to build a team how to
bring people together how to find commonality
you know You can't just make somebody a manager
and give them a staff and say, here you go. And
that's how you create a bad boss. Yeah. I think
you're right. I think in both those retail and
restaurant, it's a matter of they take somebody
who was on the team, and they give them an extra
$0 .25 an hour, and now you're in charge of everybody.
But like you said, yesterday you were on the
other side of the line, and they certainly didn't
tell you anything more between now and then.
And now you're kind of thrown into it. Again,
it all goes back to as much as you might want
to fault people. That's just a bad person. Well,
not necessarily. Like you said, no one's ever
given them the tools to do the job properly.
Well, one of the things that I learned is that
you're never too old to learn something. So even
though you may have years of experience, you
could still learn from somebody. I learned a
lot from my last supervisor, both good and bad
supervisors. And one of the things I learned
is how I didn't want to be treated. One of the
things I used to say say to my team is that I
want to go to work and I want to be happy. I
want to look forward to going to work. And I
know that's kind of ironic, but I think everybody
does. I mean, it's a necessary evil in this world
today. So I want the people who work. I wanted
the people who worked for me to look forward
to coming to work. And there's so many variables
to that because then you're throwing the weather
in central New York and you're already stressed
out from driving through a snowstorm. Now you
got to come into work and you have a boss that
doesn't appreciate your efforts or doesn't appreciate
what you do. Boy, that could make for a lousy
day. And what we want to do is we want to try
to change that. We want to make it a positive
experience. I love that Joe. This is this is
great. The bad bosses the podcast is the name
of the podcast. It's awesome Like I said, there's
there's a bunch of episodes of folks are gonna
see and we've got a bunch more planned that I
think are gonna be both interesting and educational,
which is great, you know because you could You
could give a very boring lecture on this topic,
you know, and then it's not what's happening
on this podcast. This is boring. This is this
is some educational entertainment. And we're
happy here at Clickstream Studios to help you
make that and put it out and get it to the world.
But this is this is such a neat thing. Joe, last
question and I'll I'll throw at you. If you could
give one tidbit advice to a worker who unfortunately
is stuck with a bad boss, but a job they would
like to stay with, what's one bit of advice you
could give that person? Well, the first bit of
advice I would give them is to actually confront
the supervisor or manager. Say, hey, you know,
I really like this job, but I really feel like
we have a communication problem. A lot of times
it might be just a simple misunderstanding, but
start there. I've never been one to just automatically
jump over a person's head or recommend that to
anybody But if you start there and that doesn't
work, then I would suggest that you go to their
supervisor But the problem there is a problem
with that and that's part of the reason why I
feel so passionate about Creating this podcast
is that a lot of times bosses will just push
it back down to that boss and say, you know You
need to figure this out and settle it Yeah, not
really identifying that there may be a larger
problem afoot here, right? It might be the boss
I think that's good advice. That's good advice.
And hey, especially in central New York, it's
starting to become a workers market, right? So
that's the other thing. Going back to what I
said earlier, this affects the company as much
as anybody else. So this is not the time to be
driving good folks out of your organization.
That's correct. It's the last thing you want
to do. So Joe, thank you so much. Thank you,
man. I am truly a hat guy. So this is this is
pretty cool. We're going to have apparel on our
website so people will be able to buy Bad Boss
shirts, Bad Boss sweatshirts like this, and hats.
Absolutely. See, I think that's like your story
at the beginning when you're at the store there
and the guy was being obnoxious. I think everybody
needs a Bad Boss shirt. So you can just kind
of wink and go, yeah. You really want to be reprimanding
an employee. And I actually wanted to intercede
because I felt so bad for the employee and say,
you might want to just take him in the back and
have this conversation. hopefully that'll minimize
it yeah hey that's it Joe the last thing is let's
just give your plugs what is the website and
and all that fun stuff so the website is bad
bosses org And then the email is info at bad
bosses org So just if you want to come on our
podcast and tell us your story share your experience
good and bad I've talked to some HR managers
already who are interested in coming on so I'd
love to see that because they play a critical
role in development of Supervisors and managers,
but I also want to hear from you know The people
that are entering the workforce today that are
just graduating from college. What's your expectation?
you know, I'm blessed to have you know nephews
and nieces and and little cousins, and they're
entering the workforce, graduating from college.
What's your expectation? And it's very different
than our expectation was 30 years ago. And they're
gonna be the leaders and the future developers
of the programs for the future. So I'd certainly
love to hear from them as well. That's awesome.
Joe, we will have all those links and everything,
of course, in the description. Check that out.
Subscribe to the podcast anywhere you get podcasts.
This is a good show. This is one to listen to.
So we're, again, just so happy to help you put
it out there. And also very happy to have you
on Good News York this morning. Thanks, man.
I really appreciate it. Appreciate you coming
in and joining us here. So with that. I think
we're going to head out for the day. Guys, Good
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