Good evening. Good afternoon, morning, whatever
it is. Welcome to Good News York. No, this isn't
Matt, clearly. A way better version of Matt,
if it was. I am Mike Brindisi here on this special
episode of Good News York, where we are at the
Everson Museum of Art in downtown Syracuse. And
I am joined by the executive director of the
Everson Museum of Art. Elizabeth Dunbar. Hello.
Hello. Well, thank you for doing this, first
of all. Absolutely. We're so excited to be here
because this is, you hear the word museum, and
you kind of get a vision in your mind of what
it looks like, whether that's the Louvre or whatever
museum. Pick a museum. But this museum, and it's
very well documented, that it is... It's very
original and it's very unique in a lot of ways.
Correct. And I want to talk about that first
because in 1911, Everson declared it would collect
only American art. It was the first museum to
do that. Correct. Then the second decision that
was made was to hold one of the, this is great,
one of the largest video art collections in the
world. And as well as you wanted to set the course
for the museum's long -term commitment to the
ceramic arts in 1916. How did all of that I know
it was kind of spaced out, but what made, what
kind of forced those decisions? Well, the Everson
and in those years were known as the Syracuse
Museum of Fine Arts. So our history all dates
back all the way to 1897. But back in 1911 when
we declared that we would collect American art,
European art was the standard at those times.
You would go to Paris or Berlin or across the
ocean to be able to go see really the best, most
relevant art. And museums here in the United
States were collecting European art because they
thought that was the best. In 1911, the Eversons
said, hey, why aren't we collecting the work
by... people living in this country. It's just
as good as some of those European artists. So
there you have it. That's how that started. I
love that. I love that. And before we get more
into the museum, I want to talk a little bit
about you because you know, you think about you're
the executive director, you know. When you're
coming up and you're thinking, you know, some
people might say, I think I want to be the director
and CEO of the Everson Museum. I wouldn't even
know the first thing on what direction you would
go to get here. When did you become interested
in this line of work or as a career? And tell
us a little bit about your background. Sure.
Well, I've always been one of those kids who
loved art. I love to draw, I like to make things.
And that's something that we try to cultivate
here at the museum with all of us. of our art
programs. I knew I was never going to become
the world's greatest artist, but I loved art
history and so my background is as an art historian
and I have degrees in museum studies and I started
working at my college, my university art museum
back in the old days and it led me here. Can
you work in or for a museum and not have any
artistic skills? Of course. OK, good. There's
hope for me. There's hope for me. I can draw
stick figures. That's about it. But it's not
just about drawing, right? When we think of museums,
a lot of times we picture paintings on the wall.
And there's a lot of that. But museum as a living
room is kind of a prompt that I'm thinking of.
And you often talk about the museum is not as
a static space but more like dynamic where every
day people like us kind of feel invited. Can
you describe a moment like did someone ever like
walk in and expect to see that art on the wall
like I was talking about and then they they realized
wow this was even better than that and like caught
off guard? Yeah I hope that happens a lot of
times actually. I think there are a few memorable
occasions and in the last I've been here now
11 years. So I think one of, people talk about
this one a lot, is of course you walk around
the museum and you will see art on the walls,
but we try to defy your expectations every now
and then. And we had an exhibition about three
years ago called Hoop Dreams and it was about
basketball. And if they were contemporary artists
using basketball as a theme, as a subject matter.
It's a great basketball town. Exactly. So we
tried to tap into that underlying, you know,
sports. fanaticism here in Syracuse and we transformed
working with an artist who came with a creative
vision. We transformed one of our galleries into
basically a basketball court with 30 basketball
hoops and nets attached to the wall at different
heights and you could come in and shoot some
hoops so. It was a very, very exciting, fun exhibition.
Talked about what basketball means in our culture,
but also gave people a place to play, have fun,
learn at the same time. That's awesome. Now,
is that exhibition still set up? No, no, that
was a few years ago. That's good because I would
have wanted to try. Not only can I not draw,
I'm a horrendous basketball player. If that works
out, we don't get flinching. We had some really
low hoops, so you might have done okay. She already
knows that I'm 5 '6", and it's flaringly obvious
I would need it lowered. So you guys have so
much to offer here in the way of art and exhibits,
exhibitions like that. You also have the Louise
Cafe, and it's become a huge part of the experience.
How did the... idea come about to involve cuisine
in an art museum? And is that something that
other museums do, or is this kind of like your
own innovative thing? Well, we took a traditional
model and... amped it up, I would say. Just like
we do exhibitions that are kind of unexpected.
Louise is an unexpected museum cafe. The Everson
is known for its ceramics collection. However,
you're not allowed to touch our ceramics collection.
Like, you know, pretty much most things in the
museum you can't touch. However, for Louise,
we worked with a collector who collects ceramic
art that is functional. So pots and cups and
plates and bowls and all of those things, teacups
and coffee pots and all of those kinds of things.
And we use those in the cafe. They're all one
of a kind, handmade, artist made works of art
that you use when you have cuisine. But you don't
mean like you're going to walk up to an exhibit
and say, oh, I'm just going to borrow this bowl
here. Not quite. These are specifically for use
for the cafe. But, you know, we have some very
well -known artists whose work is represented
in the Louise collection. And you never know,
you might order a cappuccino and be drinking
from a five hundred dollar cup. Oh, that's fancy.
It is fancy, but it's fun. And we want you to.
experience what it's like to live with art. And
that's one of the ways that all of us can live
with art. Yeah, and speaking of living with art,
art is conversation and not lecture. You've spoken
about demystifying art. What are some of the
ways that the Everson Museums kind of helped?
visitors feel more comfortable engaging with
the exhibitions or talking about art? Yeah. Yeah.
Well, like our basketball show, I think is a
great example. Louise Cafe, where you can, you
know, hold the art. I think also we have docents
here which give tours of our collections and
our exhibitions. And we have a million different
programs going on throughout the year, from art
workshops to we're having high tea. over in Louise
coming up. So you can learn about all different
cultures and through our free family days and
community days, come in and talk with artists,
go through the exhibitions with our educators,
you know, really be able to learn all kinds of
different things about the museum. That's wonderful.
Because someone like me, you can feel out of
place. Like I don't belong in a museum, especially
around ceramics. I'll break everything. So that's
important that you have that welcoming kind of
attitude. Yeah, absolutely. We want this to be
a place where everybody feels welcome. you are
represented. We have a very diverse community,
so you can see yourselves in the artworks in
our collection and on the walls. But also we
want to give you the tools to help you understand,
but art isn't always about understanding. It's
about just experiencing and seeing what you think
about it. I love that. And you were talking about
events and something for everybody. You guys
are incredibly family -friendly, and you have
the upcoming 315 Mom Art Contest, which is a
great example. But you also do a lot for supporting
local and emerging voices. So you have the CNY
Artist Initiative, the Teaching Artist Cohort.
Can you talk about all of that? Sure, sure. Well,
we're very much engaged in helping people find
their creative spirit. and working with artists
of all ages and from all backgrounds. We firmly
believe that we should show a vast variety of
art here at the museum. And in some cases we
show very well -known artists who have... extensive
resumes and have shown around the world, but
we also love to see the up -and -coming artists.
And we have a program called the CNY Artists
Initiative, which focuses on artists here within
a 90 -mile... Radius. Thank you. Gotcha. I gotcha.
Got me. Thank you. And we've shown about 20 artists
in that series, solo exhibitions. And some of
those artists have gone on to do really great
things here in the community and are showing
outside the community as well. So it's a great
way to launch some careers. Yeah, and we also
have our Teen Arts Council, which we have 20
teens in high school from around the central
New York region who are participating in our
our program and they not only help, you know,
make things happen here at the museum, but they're
developing their portfolios. They're learning
about museum careers, other careers in the arts
and you know, really building bridges with the
community and with various schools. I think that's
absolutely amazing because you would think a
place as physically large as this, but also with
such rich history and, you know, it can be very
intimidating for a local artist to think, man,
I could never, you know, get there. And the fact
that you kind of bring them in and offer that
is, I just, I love that so much, your connection
to the community. Yeah, well, we see all artists
as artists on the rise. I love it. I love that.
So a visitor's first time here. Yes. Which would
be for me right now. Take me through it. What
can a visitor expect on their first time, and
what do you hope they kind of take away from
that experience? Well, I think coming in, you're
going to be amazed by this incredible building,
which was... opened in 1968 and was designed
by IM Pei, who coincidentally was also the architect
who did... The pyramid at the Louvre. You mentioned
the Louvre. So you know the big glass pyramid
out front. Yes. He designed that as well after
he designed this and our staircase, which I don't
know if you can get a photo of that. We are going
to definitely get a photo. Our central spiral
staircase really was the prototype for the Louvre
in Paris. That's amazing. Yeah so you're sitting
in an architectural wonder right now so I hope
people will walk in the building and be inspired
just by your surroundings because this is this
is a historic building there's nothing like it.
out there in the world and then I hope you'll
take advantage of usually we've got five to six
different exhibitions on view at any given time
and it changes every few months so you know I
hope experiencing the museum coming for the art
going to Louise staying for the food and then
coming back we want you to feel at home here
experience things that you've never experienced
and know that it's ever changing. So you can't
just come once. You got to keep coming back.
And this really is a very unique space. I don't
know what else it could be other than a museum.
It's just it's its own work of art. And I do
mean that. I'm curious, you know, looking ahead,
you know, you've led a lot of transformative
changes and Everson has been pioneering in changing
things up over the years. life is changing society
is changing especially with the digital age right
and so things have changed for retail stores
and things of that nature people are staying
inside more what have you noticed socially culturally
within the the art world have you seen a shift
do you do you do you see people coming out less
and do you have a plan to pivot with that or
is it all been the same yeah It's, I think, for
some people, coming to a museum is a special
occasion. And we have tried to, here at the museum,
acknowledging what you're saying, that people
are staying inside more, people are working from
home, and they're missing that social connection.
And here at the museum, we've tried to put together
programs. beyond just our exhibitions, which
engage people, bring you in so you have a way
to connect with other people. I think art is
one of those things where everyone can come together
and have a different experience, maybe look at
the work differently. but have it as a shared
experience. In addition to that, we do lots of
programs, art making programs, paint and pours,
different kinds of classes, activities. We're
hosting, as I said, the high tea coming up. We
hope to do some dancing and other exciting cultural
activities. arts, performance arts. We have an
auditorium downstairs that seats 300 people.
So we keep that going all the time, films, lectures,
all kinds of ways to connect with other people.
How are you embracing, because you guys do such
a great job of balancing the culture of central
New York and Syracuse, but also, you know, you're
positioning yourself within the global conversation
as well. So how do you balance that? Well, as
I said, you know, our exhibitions kind of run
the gamut. So right now, for example, you'll
go upstairs and you can see an exhibition by
an artist who's in her 80s, who's very well established.
At the same time, we have very young emerging
artists showing. So we have 30 year old artists
showing down the hallway who bring a very different
perspective to the work. So we want to make sure
that you know, everyone is represented in a different
way. And I'm a firm believer that, you know,
we have a mix of exhibitions and programs because
you might come in to see one particular exhibition
and not think that you're going to like something
around the corner or downstairs. And then you
might be surprised by what you encounter and
kind of opens your mind. That's beautiful. A
few more questions. I want to be mindful of your
time, but there's just... So much to talk about.
The Everson, very unique place. We talked about
at the beginning of this interview, you know,
the world's largest, you know, ceramic collection,
but also the world's largest video art collection.
Tell me a little bit about that. What does that
mean exactly? Sure. So in the 1970s, the Everson
was truly a pioneer in the field of in the 1970s
when video really started as a medium It wasn't
being used for art until that period of time.
but we started collecting video art, which, you
know, new media art as we now call it these days
because it's kind of transcended just purely
video. We even have VR in our collection now
and a couple of, well, one exhibition on view
right now uses virtual reality and we have another
one coming up in January that will be utilizing
virtual reality. So we really were on the forefront
those days and continue to. to invest in technology
and bring it here to the museum. That's amazing.
Now, tell me a little bit about this, I guess,
for lack of a better term, the selection process.
And I don't know if that's a silly question to
ask. I'm not part of this culture, unfortunately,
so I've always wondered. Do artists come directly
to the museum and say this is how I would like
to submit this? How does all that work? It depends.
We have lots of different types of exhibitions
here. Our main program usually is by invitation
and we spend... myself and we have a curatorial
team. We have a curator of ceramics. We have
a curatorial assistant and we have a director
of curatorial affairs who are all experts in
different areas of art. So they know what they're
looking for. But in other cases like our CNY
artists initiative, artists submit work. You
know, we do a call for entries once a year and
we look at their work and decide who gets selected.
So those are more jury type exhibitions. And
then in addition to that, we do a number of community
exhibitions here at the museum. So we work with
scholastics, with the school kids, the silver
key winners all show their work here. We work
with the organization ARISE, which serves people
with disabilities. And we have their annual unique
exhibition here. We work with CNY Arts to do
on my own time every year. So they're all different
ways of getting your work shown here at the museum.
You guys preach about your diversity, your inclusion,
but you really back it up. You really do welcome
people from all walks of life, cultures. that.
Explain to me what goes into the decision on,
you know, we're going to keep an exhibition permanently
or we're gonna rotate it. How does that work
logistically? Well, we have limited amount of
square footage. So it's important to us that
we keep it fresh and exciting. So there's always
something new to seeing when you come. But in
addition to that, we have a permanent, what we
call permanent collection, which is a collection
of artworks that we continue to. to acquire every
year. And we keep a selection of those on view
for an extended period of time. It might get
refreshed every now and then. But we have some
perennial favorites that we like to put up. So
when you want to come see. George Washington
by Gilbert Stuart. That's usually on view. It's
not up right now, but it will be again soon.
But yeah, we have some things that will always
be on view. And then of course we have some pieces
outside, some permanent outdoor sculpture, including
and this might be known to your audience or may
not be known, the Everson Plaza right behind
us is a mecca for skateboarding. And has been
for decades. And in fact, we did a skateboarding
exhibition this past summer to... honor that
history. And we also commissioned a sculpture
by the artist Gons, Mark Gonzalez, very well
known in the skateboarding world. And we have
an outdoor sculpture that's skateable in the
plaza. You know, I was sitting on the way over.
Sometimes, again, when you're not part of the
museum culture, you feel out of place. You go,
I'm going to walk in there. I'm going to break
a ceramic rabbit. They're going to be very uptight.
And you guys are the opposite of that. You're
not uptight. I mean, you have an exhibition for
basketball. You can skate on an exhibition. This
is exactly what I meant when I said the Everson
Museum is so unique. I got to ask, before we
go, first of all, any plugs, plug, you know,
the website where you can get tickets, any air
events or exhibitions coming up that you want
to see. So go to our website, everson .org. The
museum is up through the holidays, a great place
to bring friends and family when you have visitors
from out of town for the holidays. Coming up,
we've got lots of things. So check out our website,
honestly. We will be opening a new exhibition
on January 29th, Federico Solmi, the animation
videos and painting and VR. He works with gaming
technology, so it's really interesting and combines
it with painting. So there's kind of something
for everyone in that one. But lots of things
coming up. It changes, you know, week by week,
there's something new to do. So please check
out our website. Absolutely. I have to ask, so
when we were coming here and I was getting dressed
this morning, I went, what is proper museum attire?
For some reason, and you can be honest, I thought,
hey. This shirt says, hey Mike, you're going
to a museum. You're going to check some stuff
out. Is this proper, you can be honest, is this
proper museum attire? Is there museum attire?
There is no such thing as museum attire. Anything
goes. Sweatpants? I mean, we had skateboarders
here all summer long. Literally skating right
outside. And inside we had a skateboard ramp.
We had a half pipe in the gallery. So anything
goes. It's amazing. So Elizabeth, I was going
through the website. you know a couple days ago
before we were coming checking everything out
and one thing that caught my eye and I'm literally
asking you I do not know the answer to this there
was in 2020 the deaccession of a Jackson Pollock
painting yes which sounds dirty it sounds like
I didn't know if I was supposed to be reading
this. What exactly does that mean? Tell me about
the process. What we did? Sure. So in 2020, we
made the decision to deaccession, which means
to remove from our collection and sell a painting
by Jackson Pollock. And Jackson Pollock, for
those out there who are... know something about
art, probably know the name Jackson Pollock.
The guy that just threw paint everywhere. He
gave me hope that I could do something. So yes,
we have two works by Jackson Pollock in the collection
and we decided to sell one painting in order
for us to be able to purchase other work. The
work was very expensive. It was quite small.
It was about this big and it sold for 12 million
dollars. Most people didn't even know we had
the Jackson Pollock. It went on view every so
often, but it wasn't a particularly special Jackson
Pollock. Other Jackson Pollocks are, you know,
in the wide world of Jackson Pollock paintings
this one was. and you can go down to Utica and
see one of the greatest Jackson Pollock paintings
ever made at the Munson. So we felt that it would...
be good for us to sell the painting and use the
proceeds to purchase other art for our collection.
And we have used it to do so. So it was more
of a reinvestment. I didn't know if something
was wrong with it. We've got to get it out of
here. No, no, no. That makes me wonder. I meant
to ask this earlier, which is, do you kind of
work, do you have rival museums? Or do museums
work hand in hand and kind of sell and trade
together? And also, the third part of that question,
I guess, is how do you, like, I'm sure everybody
wants, you know, the Munson got the Jackson Pollock.
How does everybody get their hands on that? You
know what I mean? If everybody's going for it.
Well, they acquired that Jackson Pollock right
after it was made. So you would have to go back
in time into the 1950s to acquire it. So we try
to do the same thing now. and selling our Jackson
Pollock allows us to have some funds available
so we can buy work by emerging artists. I mean,
Jackson Pollock wasn't necessarily a household
name back then when the Munson acquired that
painting. So we're trying to do the same thing
now by purchasing work by younger or mid -career
artists and bringing it into our collection,
hoping that they some... at some point in time
become kind of the same echelon as Jackson Pollock.
So there's no museum wars like in Anchorage?
No. The news wars? No. You're like, you know
what? They can have the Jackson Pollock. We're
happy for it. It would be a pretty... pretty
funny battle between museum directors. Museum
battles? I'd film that in a heartbeat. Last question,
real quick. The authentication process. So you're
talking about Jackson Pollock paintings. Clearly
there has to be some authenticity involved in
this. Is there a person? Is there a board? And
what is the process when you go through that?
Because I'm sure that's one of the main things.
Yeah, I mean, we had very clear provenance, which
is the history of the painting, to know that
it came. from his gallerist when it was purchased
several times back from when we acquired it.
So we do, that ours was definitely authentic
and it was in the catalog raisin A, which is
kind of the, if you would, it's kind of the artist's
Bible in terms of everything they've ever made
in their career. So it. was in that, so we knew
that was definitely authentic. But in terms of
authentication, it really depends on the artist
and what you're talking about. If we had a Rembrandt
or somebody wanted to sell us a Rembrandt, well,
we only collect American art. But if someone
wanted to sell us an Andy Warhol and for us to
know if that really was a... true Andy Warhol,
we would contact the Andy Warhol Foundation.
So, it really depends on the artist. There's
a lot of people involved in the process. Yeah.
Yeah, so. Did you, have you ever had a favorite
exhibition that you hated to see go? Or maybe
that's still here? Is that even possible? I mean,
there's so much. Is there one that you just kept
walking by and you're like, God, I love this
thing. I had one kind of favorite exhibition
from many years ago, I think it was 2015 or 16,
called Three Graces. And one of the artists in
that exhibition transformed this space, this,
what we call the sculpture court, by hanging
pink. construction tape, I guess is what you
would call it, the ribbon, the pink ribbon. And
it all hung from the ceiling just above your
heads. And so when you walked through the space,
the pink - It was immersive. It was immersive
and all the pink ribbon would kind of flutter
in the space, but it really drew attention to
this volume of space that we're sitting in. It
was a little bit whimsical with the pink, but
it also picked up the pink in our granite walls
here. That's amazing. So it was a very simple
gesture, but something that really transformed
your perception of the space. Have you ever had,
I see on social media, I see sometimes there's
live art exhibitions. Have you ever had that
where someone's posing or... Have you done anything
like that? I haven't done anything quite like
that, but we do performance art here in the museum.
Auditorium. Yeah, and sometimes out here in the
spaces. We've had, you know, performances in
this space where we've had people climbing up
the side of the building or rappelling down the
side of the building. We've had people up here
on the spiral staircase performing. You know,
they were harnessed up to the top, but wandering
down the staircase and singing and So I could
just show up and... You never know. You never
know what you'll find. I want to drive a unicycle
around the lobby because it's art. I mean...
Well, you know, it's sanctioned. You can't just
show up with your unicycle. All right, fine.
Well, thank you so much for your time. Elizabeth
Dunbar, Director, CEO of the Everson Museum of
Art, Downtown Syracuse, please check it out.
As you can see, she's wonderful. This place is
wonderful and it's not. You're boring old buttoned
up. I'm gonna walk around and look at oil paintings.
There is so much to see here. So with that, another
episode of Good News York sponsored by ads on
the go. Follow us, like, subscribe at Good News
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