Welcome to Good News York, sponsored by ads on
the go. Get ads on the go dot com. Shout out
to Zach. Mike Perdice with you. Follow me on
all socials at MikeBTV. I'm flying solo. Matt's
out looking for Sasquatch. He believes in that
stuff. That's fine. Don't fault him for it. I
hope he finds him, but I'm not alone. I'm here
with a very special guest the founder of Merrigan
strategic advisors and partner at table force
mr. Patrick Griffin Thank You Mike. Thank you.
I wish I had enough people in here to give you
a big, you know big welcoming I always hear it.
I'm very excited to have you on the show We have
so much to talk about you are a man of many talents
and you just have such a great We're going to
talk about obviously, did I say that again? Morrigan?
Merrigan? Morrigan. Oh, I think I said Merrigan.
It's Morrigan. We'll talk about Morrigan Strategic
Advisors. We're going to talk about Table Force
and, of course, the Erie Canal Museum, which
is really exciting. But let's find out a little
bit about you. Give us your background and how
things all kind of started for you. Sure. Well,
thank you, Mike. You're very welcome. So I came
up, I grew up downstate. and spent most of my
career in finance and moved up here to the Syracuse
area nine years ago for family reasons. My wife
is from Weedsport. We've got kids and live out
in Fayetteville. Great. So I moved up here. I
had spent about 10 years on Wall Street and then
moved into banking in this area and then had
the opportunity to start my own shop. And so
I've been I started my own business in the beginning
of 2024 and now I find myself with two businesses,
which is a real treat and and how I got there
is has been wild, you know, they say they always
say the it's all in the journey and For me, I
could not agree more. I've spent my entire life
trying to teach myself about appreciating the
journey and not worrying so much about the destination.
It really is something that, it's like a mantra
that I always tell myself. So you move upstate,
you worked on Wall Street, you worked in the
banking industry. What happens first? Because
you're involved in so many companies and different
projects. Sure. So I did a few things. So when
I came up here, I... Two things happened kind
of at the same time now. I was able to join a
bank and I didn't come from a banking background
despite having a finance background. There are
nuances there in banking best practices. And
so I was able to join a training program with
one of the local banks and that really helped
me get ready to be a banker. But when I launched,
I found that while I was expecting to negotiate
quite a bit as a banker and that having been
a big part of my job down in New York, I wasn't
negotiating as much, and I really missed it.
And when I was negotiating, it was with people
who were just less trained, a little bit less
experienced, nothing against them. It was just
less a part of their professional life than it
was mine. And so I decided to put together some
training curriculum around negotiation and decided
to start teaching it. And so I called up, I think
the first thing I did after teaching it internally
at the bank a little bit is I... I called up
the Tech Garden, now Inspire, a local incubator,
and I said, hey, give me a room and I'll teach
people how to negotiate. And they said yes, somehow,
which was wonderful. And so I started trying
to flex that muscle in a different way. Instead
of actively negotiating deals, I just wanted
to help develop people in their negotiation skills
and still be able to engage in such a rich subject.
And so while that was also happening, you mentioned
the Erie Canal Museum. I wanted to get tied into
the local community because, again, I'm not from
here. And so I had an opportunity to join the
Erie Canal Museum nine years ago, almost nine
years ago, and wanted to dig my teeth in really
and become part of the community in an important
way. And it just so happens that I did it at
a nice time. I did it at a fun time for growth
for the museum, but also, as many people know,
we are... at the end right now of what's referred
to as the bicentennial period for the Erie Canal.
So the Erie Canal was constructed over a period
of seven years, and it was finished 200 years
ago this year. Oh, wow. And so my tenure as a
trustee there, and I was board president for
a little while, I was treasurer for a long time,
and I've been an executive trustee for most of
the time, overlaps perfectly with that bicentennial
period. And so it's just a through sheer coincidence,
a really exciting time to be involved. And we've
also, we have an amazing executive director and
have a lot of energy around trying to tell the
stories about the Erie Canal Museum, or excuse
me, the Erie Canal a little bit differently.
Trying to tell some stories that haven't been
told about the construction and the impact on
the community, technologies used, things like
that. And so we're, we are launching a new angle
on that, that we're just gearing up to find the
best way to tell it right now. That's awesome.
And I really respect that you wanted to get involved
with the community. I think that's something
that people overlook when you move to a new area.
Getting involved with the community is not only
rewarding for yourself, and it opens up networking
and new opportunities, but it's also a nice gesture
to want to be a part of the community. And I
really love that. So I have so many ways I want
to go because I'm so interested in all of this.
But let's start with the negotiation TableForce.
TableForce is a global company. You said there's
only three employees there? Yes, so three. There
are two owners and then me. I'm an honored partner.
I will become an owner. I'm working my way into
it right now. So what fascinates me about this
is you specialize in negotiation, which is so
important. And it's funny because as I was researching
you when I knew you were coming on, I'm realizing
This is kind of a one -of -one thing. There's
not many negotiation training. There's not a
lot of negotiation training. There's certainly
not companies that offer the training. So it's
kind of a two -part question. How did you know
that you were good at negotiation and that it's
something that you were strong enough to teach
at? And how do you kind of turn that into a business?
Great question, Mike. And I'll say that I didn't
know I was good enough to teach it. But in terms
of how I knew I was good enough at it as a subject
itself, I was, my whole family are attorneys
downstate. Oh, there you go. At the dinner table,
the art of rhetoric, the art of argumentation.
If you don't have it locked down, nobody's going
to pass you the piece. That's right. But then
growing up, I grew up about 60 miles east of
New York City. And my friends and I, we would
get on the train and go into New York. they'd
all want to go shopping at the shops. And I would
go to the street vendors when I'd have, you know,
some money in my left pocket. I'd have a very
specific amount of money in my right pocket.
And I would just go and I would negotiate for
knockoff Oakley sunglasses or whatever happened
there. And it wasn't really about the sunglasses.
It was about it was about learning the craft
about about 14, 15 years old. Just trying to
get my head around deal making in this way, because
it was really different than, you know, retail
experience that I was accustomed to. So. Then
when I moved into the city and I was really fortunate
to launch my professional career on Wall Street,
the company was growing in such a way that I
was able to grab some parts of the job that were
particularly interesting to me. So I was able
to, there was a bit of an a la carte element
to what I was able to pick up. So I took over
pricing strategy for my vertical because I was
in a really specialized space. negotiation was
just automatically a large part of the job and
we were selling to global banks and global financial
institutions. And so I was good at it. I needed
to become better at it. And so and thankfully
I was I was aware of that. I made some really
silly mistakes early in my career, lost some
face. And then what happened was as I was getting
better at it and I knew I needed to, they brought
in some trainers, some outside corporate trainers
for us. And that was a two day program. And it
was a light bulb moment for me. One that, wow,
this is a formal discipline. I didn't know it
was a formal discipline that one could really
immerse themselves in in that way. I thought
it was just something people had to be good at.
And so that depth of opportunity of learning
was really enchanting to me. And that introduced
me to the whole world of academic writings about
negotiation. So I just started reading it. I
just started grabbing it. And so and I spent
a few more years on on in the city and moved
up here as I said I decided to start teaching
it flex it that way no background in teaching
at all So I put together curriculum based on
that training a little bit but based on books
I'd read based on my practical experience sure
I Was probably terrible when I started because
again, it's one thing to be good at the subject
It's another thing to be good at teaching, but
I'm an iterative I try to experiment. I try to
always improve. And so I just kept at it. And
I'm very proud to say that I got to the point
where I know I was good at teaching negotiation.
And then I had this opportunity to join TableForce.
I went up meeting the minority partner and then
the founder. just really pitched them on myself
as you negotiate it. Well, we talk about really
asking for what you want. We call it raising
the bar. Right. So so trying to get out there
and try. That's the first step for any negotiation
is just people need to try to get what they want.
And and thankfully, I I had that boldness in
that moment and and went for it. And it is honestly
the greatest joy in my professional career that
I get to talk about negotiation for a living.
This is so cool. You're such a unique individual
and this is such a unique niche that you found.
It's funny because here I was sitting here researching
you going, you can specialize in negotiation?
And that's how you kind of found it. You were
like, oh wait, I can specialize in negotiation?
I just thought I was good at it. Do you find
so, you know, we hear the word negotiation, but
I'm sure people interpret it in their own way
Do you find that there's is there a difference
between negotiation and a sales pitch? Is it
kind of intertwined and Yeah, I guess I guess
that's the question. What is it? Is it a little
bit of sales? Is it its own thing is a little
bit of both? It's a great question. So there's
a Venn diagram involved certainly so To be good
at sales to be really good at sales you have
to be good in negotiation. And part of the reason
for that is just recognizing that there are more
variables than just cost you can play with. And
knowing kind of what, the way I think about it
visually is kind of just what levers to pull
that are gonna make something attractive. So
sales is a major component of it. And I should,
as you said, when people hear the term negotiation,
they think of a lot of different things. So let
me clarify my niche. So what I specialize in
is B2B negotiation. Business to business. Yeah,
business to business. There are hostage negotiators
out there. One particularly famous one likes
to talk about how he thinks it applies to B2B
negotiation. I pick fights with him on social
media sometimes because he's wrong. Love it.
Love it. I specialize in B2B negotiation. Sales
is a component of that. Procurement is a... very
significant component of that. When you have
people on the other side who are trying to buy
and trying to, you know, that sort of logistical
supply chain component of operations, having
people who can negotiate well is really critical.
And then even just on towards other professionals,
we work with a lot of project managers. There's
a company I'll be teaching next month in Texas
that they do a lot of large scale infrastructure
construction. And so they'll get, you know, their
project managers will They're managing their
client relationships or whoever, you know, whatever
governmental entity wants them to build something.
They're also managing subcontractor relationships.
There are change orders that come through. And
so there are all these, you know, they have their
plan, right? Mike Tyson famously said, everybody
has a plan until they get punched in the mouth.
This company is smart enough that they know that
they need to have that plan for when they get
punched in the mouth. And so their team needs
to be prepared to react to things in the field.
And they can't always go back to the well and
say, how do we handle this? So they invest in
their people. This is just one particular example.
We work across industries, but they invest in
their people so that their teams can be more
responsive and faster and just more well -informed
about how to navigate those challenges. That's
incredible because, again, and I'm just giving
you from the point of view of the regular Joe
like me, when I hear the word negotiation, I
always assume it's about money. But when I hear
you speaking, I'm learning It's not just about
money. Am I correct? It applies across the board.
Can you give me some examples of... Well, let's
think of like a really extreme example. Sure.
I love extreme. Let's do it. I have a big hole
in my backyard that I'm fixing. This is real.
This is a true thing. I love it. I have a big
hole and I had to go over to local lawn and garden,
local company this weekend and I needed to order
five yards of stone to fill it. So about 10 ,000
pounds of stone. And so I go in there, I look
at their price, the price is good, but what if
they all of a sudden said, yep, that's the price
for us to deliver to you in three months? I need
it, I need it now, right? So that's a contrived
example, right? But when we, it's illustrative
because what we wanna realize is that, okay,
so price is one thing, timing's another thing
in terms of delivery. When I was in New York,
price was, One of the smaller things I was probably
negotiating most of the time My job is also to
work closely with our legal counsel to to get
legal terms across You know across the finish
line and get stuff done So you have to look not
just at price but at terms and conditions and
at table force What we say is that it's not the
price. It's the package So because really realistically
there's a wide range of prices that a person
can get comfortable with depending on what you
tweak in the package and so If the price isn't
working for you, you look for other outside areas
of value where, all right, let me find something
else I can add to this deal that's going to make
that price worthwhile to me. Or maybe I want
them to come down on the price a little bit.
And so I'm going to seed this little term that
I care about. That's fantastic. And so just thinking
about it as really recognizing all the variables
you can play with. And one of the most fun things
in our training program is that, so our bread
and butter, about 80 % of what we do is a two
-day program. It's in -person. We don't use PowerPoint.
It's interactive. There's typically two to three
dozen people in a room at a time. And so it's
a combination of us speaking, interacting, and
then breakouts where they practice what we've
taught them. And at the beginning of day one,
a couple hours into it after they listen to me
talk for a little bit, I give them their first
little test. And it's one, two variables involved.
By the end of the second day, we're sending them
out. They have an hour to prepare, an hour to
negotiate. They are negotiating. dozens of terms
and conditions, dozens of variables, like 50
different variables. And we get them to the point
where day one, morning of, they might not be
terribly comfortable with that. And at the end
of day two, they are on time. They get it done
in that hour with that hour of prep. And so a
lot of it is just one of the fun things that
I find is that negotiation is ancient as a practice.
It's so integral to the human experience. And
so I think a lot of what we do is just unlocking
skill that people already have and finding a
way to get them to it. So I had a guy I was teaching
last year that he was afraid of negotiation.
He didn't like to negotiate. He was worried about
how people looked at him when he did it. He thought
they would think less of him. But then I heard
him negotiating one of the more complex deals.
And his rhetorical skill, his ability from a
debate perspective to get the other to get his
counterparty on his side. And I don't say opponent,
I say counterparty. To get his counterparty on
the side was so nuanced, so skillful. And so
I asked him, I said, your rhetoric is on point.
You're so good at this. What's missing for you
to be good at negotiation? And he's like, I just
need to get my head around it. There was a mindset
shift for him. He had so much of the skill already,
but he needed to just tweak his thinking a little
bit so that he could fully engage with it in
a way to his benefit. Two weeks prior to my training,
he had bought a car at a dealership for asking
price. And leaving on the second day, he was
chomping at the bit to get into his next negotiation
because he was so excited. And that's part of
it as well. And you and I talked about this earlier
this morning. My core ethos around this is just
that everybody can get better at negotiation.
And I really think every personality type can
be good at negotiation. It's just a matter of
finding your way to it. Love that answer and
you know as you're talking I'm realizing something
I'm learning from you without you even trying
to teach me is that it sounds like with negotiation
it's it's sometimes a lot about thinking outside
of the box like you know and as you were speaking
I'm thinking have I ever done this and I the
closest example I can think of is when we bought
one of our houses and We negotiated on price
and that kind of came to a stop and then it became
okay We'll give you that price, but can you?
Paint these walls can you you know and I remember
thinking I remember saying to the realtor the
real estate agent Oh, we can we can ask for that
kind of stuff, and she's like oh absolutely and
that kind of opened my mind like oh I thought
it was like we just talked about price, and that's
it and so am I am I right in in that that's a
Part of the negotiation. Perfect example. Oh,
awesome. And that's what we look for. We look
for things that are of kind of disparate value,
something that is... low value to them, but high
value to me. And not always, right? Painting
a wall is an example of like, it makes a big
difference for you to have that wall painted
by the time you move in. So that's more valuable
to them, excuse me, that's more valuable to you
than it would be to them to go through the effort
of painting. And so that's an excellent example.
And looking outside of just those kind of strict
paradigms, strict parameters of negotiation outside
of price, and getting creative, that's what turns
a good deal into a great deal. That's fantastic.
And it's so much fun when it works. Can you and
I'm not going to put you on the spot. It's not
like this is 60 minutes, but obviously with what
you do, like you said, it's very nuanced. There's
a lot to it. But let's just say for the sake
of this podcast, like what are what are a couple
things like just baseline starting negotiation
tips you can give or or even a misconception
about negotiation wherever you want to go with
it. But sure. So let me attack each of those.
So a misconception about negotiation for one
thing, and this is, I'll tie this back to why
I referred to them as a counterpart and not an
opponent, especially in B2B negotiation, is that
people think of negotiation as a battle. And
really, negotiation when done well is collaborative
problem solving. And so one of the things I did
early on in my training, folks in negotiation,
was I would put people, I would set people up
for a mock negotiation. They would instinctually
sit on opposite sides of the table. And I'd let
them do that for a little while. And then I would
make them get up and I'd make them sit on the
same side of the table. And it's this silly little
hack, but so that they just orient themselves
like, you know what, we are actually both trying
to solve this problem. Let's also face in the
same direction, because we're figuratively facing
in the same direction. We're trying to get this
done. So let's get it done. So just dismantling
this idea of of it as as negotiation is inherently
combative. and turning it into collaborative.
So if you're combative in a negotiation, you're
more likely to wind up with what's referred to
as a distributive negotiation. You have a fixed
pie. Somebody's going to get 60 percent of it
or whatever percent of it. The other person's
going to get, you know, the remainder. You can
shift then to a value -creating negotiation framework
where both parties can really wind up walking
away with more than they thought they could.
A good example of this is, if you've got something
you're being asked to give up, you want a little
bit of value in exchange for it. Maybe an introduction,
right? So, hey, I know that you work with X company.
I would really like to talk to them. Can you
write me a letter of reference to them? That
is no cost. That is free for your other party.
It's very valuable to you. And so we look for
those areas because that really allows us to
maximize that value. and identify those areas
where things are differently valued between the
two different parties. So let's talk about how
everybody can get better at negotiation starting
five minutes after they listen to this. The first
thing I always tell people is just try. Ask,
right? You want something, ask for it. You never
get anything you don't ask for, generally speaking.
And so ask, ask, ask. And when you do that, one,
it'll stop being scary because it's scary for
a lot of people. But two, you'll just learn about
how to get what you want. And so it's always
in the asking and getting comfortable with being
told no, right? So just getting rid of that fear.
But the other component that is really important
and integral to getting better is never give
anything up without getting something in return.
It doesn't have to be a lot. It doesn't have
to mean the same thing to them that it does to
you, right? An introduction, a letter of reference.
But if I'm giving something up, if I'm ceding
a position, I'm going to ask you for something
in return. And at TableForce, we refer to that
as the habit and the loop. You get into this
habit and this loop of, yes, I can do that if
you do this. No, I can't do that. But if you
can do this, then maybe I can help you out here.
This kind of understanding of exchange. Push
and pull. Yeah. And what that does is it's not
just extractive, right? You're not just taking,
taking, taking. you're exchanging and when you're
exchanging you're actually also building a relationship
and you're making things a little bit stickier.
So when people negotiate our way they they tend
to wind up with more strategic partnerships than
they do just transactional relationships because
transactional relationships are kind of bulky
and cumbersome and yeah and when you can move
towards more of a strategic partnership there
are some profound efficiencies there. So if before
I talk to you if I knew someone was going into
a negotiation and they came out I might ask So
did you win? Is it a win -loss thing? No. So
it can be. It ideally isn't. And especially,
again, I'll qualify in B2B negotiation. We teach
people how to get win -win outcomes because in
a B2B negotiation, in the vast majority of B2B
negotiations, your goal is to interact with that
other party again. If this works, I want to come
back. I wanted to do another deal. I want to
buy more drill bits from you. So there is opportunity.
And when you're in a negotiation, you want to
think about your immediate needs, what you're
trying to get out of it. But you also want to
set that stage for a continued relationship.
And so moving to an area where it's win -win,
and you want to know what you can give up. You
need to know what you can give up, you need to
know what you have to absolutely shield. So as
long as you stay within that and you protect
what you need to, and you never give up without
getting something in return, then that is what
turns negotiations into win -win. So win -lose
negotiations obviously exist, but when done well,
win -win negotiations are really achievable.
Yeah, and that makes total sense. I've heard
many times in many instances where someone said,
just get to the next meeting. That's the goal
of this meeting is get to the next one. And it
sounds like that applies. Patrick Griffin of
Table Force. I could talk about the negotiation
aspect all day, but I want to respect your time.
And Danny, you know, he's going to kill me if
I keep going. I want to talk about the Erie Canal
Museum because this is fascinating. And the Erie
Canal, it's funny because when I heard about
this, I was excited. Because as you know Micron
is coming into the Syracuse area. So one of the
things that we keep hearing over and over from
different people is they're saying that this
is the biggest thing since the Erie Canal. So
obviously people from around here know the significance
of the Erie Canal and you know a little bit of
the history. But to have an entire museum kind
of reiterates my point of that it really is a
big deal. I know you said you wanted to get involved
because you want to get involved in the community.
Was it just. Something that was kind of on your
radar and you saw it like all of the Erie Canal
Museum I've always wanted to or or how did this
come about? Great question. So I I wanted to
dig into the community. I knew only a little
bit about Central New York and Syracuse But I
knew enough to know that the Erie Canal was a
pivotal Factor in the emergence of Syracuse as
a city. And so I felt and I continue to feel
that in order to understand Syracuse you have
to understand the canal. You have to understand
the impact of that massive economic and technological
achievement. Yeah. And so it's really remarkable.
And one of the things, so the Erie Canal itself,
as I said, was built over a period of seven years.
They had a toll for it at the time. So you had
to pay a toll. And yet what happened was there
was a series of tolls. There were what are called
whalock buildings, where you would bring your
boat into this building. It's a lock that would
weigh your boat waylock building and that would
determine how much fare you paid how much toll
you paid The Erie Canal Museum in downtown Syracuse
is in the only remaining waylock building in
North America. So that is Exactly where the original
canal passed through Wow, and and it's in this
building that is another technological marvel
And so, you know, we don't have the scales there
anything any longer But but just conceptually
It's an incredible thing to think about. How
do you solve this problem 200 years ago? And
the people who built a canal had never built
a canal before. So they were making up new technology
left and right to pull a stump, move a rock,
or figure out the grade, because you need to
make sure that you're not moving too far up or
down. And so it's such a rich topic. And I felt
that it was a good fit. for integrating myself
in the community while also learning about the
history of Syracuse. Yeah and it's incredible
you know the lock systems. I remember growing
up and and and seeing you know my my parents
teaching me about you know lock 17 or lock 24
along you know and and just watching how these
things operate and it's absolutely incredible
to think about people coming together back then
and doing it first. There's a lot going on at
the Erie Canal Museum. What's your mission? Is
it to just spread more of the history about the
canal? There's events going on. You have galleries
that are mainstays, but you have rotating galleries
or exhibits, excuse me. What is the Erie Canal
Museum all about? So normally I'd be able to
quote for you our actual mission statement, but
I'm worried I'll just love it if I try now. But
the goal of the Erie Canal Museum is to educate
the community on the impact both social, technological,
and economic on the communities in central New
York. And one of the things about that is that
we have been telling the story a certain way
for a long time. And there are aspects of that
story that we haven't always told. Well, for
example, the impact on the indigenous community
on the on the Native American nations here. And
so one of the big things that we're trying to
do under the under the leadership of our executive
director is get better at telling those stories
that we haven't always told and in an inequitable
way and in a way that really reflects the reality
of those of those changes, both good and negative,
positive and negative. And so it It is the nice
thing about it is that there is just so much
there. And so yes, as you said, we have some
fixed exhibits. We have rotating exhibits that
come through. We're getting better and better
every year throwing events and we've got really
incredible professionals at the museum that put
together instructional programs. We have a gala
coming up where we're collaborating with the
Onondaga Historical Association. That is this
month and they may or may not come out before
this airs. But we're just, we are, so the trustees
and the employees there are all sort of a self
-selected group of people who are just trying
to do things better and use some skills we developed
in our professional lives for a different purpose.
And because of that, you wind up with this really
wonderful cocktail of creativity and curiosity
and just storytelling. It's amazing. Is there
something, again, I feel like I'm putting you
on the spot, but is there one kind of cool fact
about the Erie Canal that you can think of off
the top of your head? Like if I was to go to
the museum and leave and go, I can't believe
that this happened or this is a part of it. What's
something that people don't know too much about?
Sure. So I think my favorite thing, and I don't
know how specifically we talk about this in the
museum exhibits itself, but so. New York obviously
was a major economic center continues to be but
200 years ago. It already was and and By virtue
of developing the Erie Canal You connect the
Great Lakes to New York City. Everybody knows
that right now go down the Hudson you get to
New York But what a lot of people don't think
about is that once you can connect to the Great
Lakes system You can connect to the Mississippi
and once you can connect to the Mississippi you
can connect to the Gulf of Mexico Really? And
so because of that there is a massive triangle
of the eastern portion of this country that becomes
an economic circuit instead and so it kind of
completes the canal completed this circuit and
became an absolute economic revolution as a result
and I think it's really a major part you know
it's funny the federal government at the time
refused to contribute any funds to the development
of the New York Canal Museum they considered
a New York problem New York state problem and
uh but the impact the benefits for the nation
as a whole would be really difficult to calculate.
Yeah. You should have went back to the federal
government and said, this isn't a New York problem.
We're talking about the Mississippi. We're talking
about, you know, this giant triangle. That's
the exact answer I was hoping for. That is so
cool. Just when I thought... Okay, we've talked
about table for us. We've talked about the Erie
Canal Museum. You also work for Morgan Strategic
Advisors. So first of all, do you sleep ever?
But second of all, tell us a little bit about
the Strategic Advisors. Morgan Strategic Advisors.
So Morgan Strategic Advisors is my company. My
wife and I own it together, but she's not operationally
involved. And it's... is my, it's what we call
a fractional chief financial officer practice.
So I'm essentially a consultant. And I work as
a chief financial officer for small companies
that are growing but aren't yet large enough
where they can really justify a full -time CFO.
And so the practice of being a fractional CFO
is pretty broad and takes a bunch of different
shapes. And it's a growing So in 2025, it was
expected to grow about 60 % in terms of the number
of people or opportunities in the fractional
CFO space. And so each of us has to, anybody
who considers themselves a fractional CFO, you
have to be specific about what you're good at.
And so fractional means part time, but it also
means part in scope. And so what I do, where
I specialize, is that I work with companies that
already exist So I don't really work with startups.
So I work with companies that already exist,
have product -market fit, and are looking to
grow, but growth is expensive. So how do you
do that? And so I come in with this strategic
guidance from a financial perspective. I said,
okay, you're at this inflection point where you
need to grow, but you need to know how to do
that in a smart way. You need to have the right
systems in place that are sustainable. Maybe
you need to access outside capital. And so I
help them get to that next level. And my goal
with these, so currently, this is a practice
I keep small on purpose. Actually, there was
about a year ago. So I started this practice
in the spring of 2024. And it only happened because
somebody approached me and asked me to help.
It was somebody with an existing business, same
thing, opening a second location and didn't know
how to do that from a financial perspective.
And so I said, sure, I'll help. And then I figured
out how to be good at that. Then somebody else
approached me and asked me for help and then
somebody else and all of a sudden I had six companies
that wanted my help with this and it was too
many for a few reasons one I was really focused
on negotiation table force and And two I I couldn't
do well at six. It was too many I couldn't give
them all the attention and the care. Yeah, and
so I fired all my clients except for one this
this wonderful analytical lab out in Rochester
and kept it at that level and then earlier this
year I received a call from some of the folks
at Center State and they asked me to speak with
another company and so I took on a second client.
And that's been a real joy because it allows
me to flex these skills, these capabilities that
I developed in my financial career for these
companies that just get me so excited because
the founders are just incredible people. And
so I get to be selective with who I work with.
I only work with people for whom I can be an
unabashed cheerleader. And so that's just a source
of joy for me. So there's a little money in it,
but really it's a source of joy for me. And it
happened by surprise. It wasn't by design. One
factor that we didn't mention that is helpful
is I... After grad school, I wound up co -writing
a textbook on working capital management. And
so I'd had that sort of academic endeavor of
understanding working capital needs between different
industries. And then my experience as a banker
was really helpful with that as well. So I found
a way to redeploy my skill. And I do sleep. I've
got three kids. I have another board I work on
as well. And I've got these businesses. and it's
interesting because it's all um one of the joys
of being an entrepreneur in this case is that
you know i set my own schedule and i really feel
like i have more time than i've had in years
and i don't think that's true i just think i'm
in command of my time and i'm doing more things
that bring me joy and so it doesn't feel like
you know the the work doesn't feel like toil
if if you catch the distinction 100 % that's
the old you know the old cliche of like if you
if you end up having a career doing something
you love, it doesn't feel like work. You're an
incredible entrepreneur and person. I'm really
impressed with everything you do. I wish I had
thought about it. We should have done a mock
negotiation. That would have been hilarious and
I would have failed miserably. Before we go,
Patrick Griffin, you are incredible. What are
some of the things coming up for maybe Morgan,
strategic advisors, TableForce, the Erie Canal
Museum, any plugs, any events, any websites,
social media, anything you want to talk about?
So, I have to give a lot of credit to the, formerly
called the Tech Garden, now inspired the Innovation
Hub. They just had their grand opening. Almost
two weeks ago of their new facility downtown
32 million dollar renovation of this space And
what they do is they help businesses grow and
they do it in a much more comprehensive way than
I do but The Tech Garden at the time now inspire
Was really instrumental in me even being here
today because they were the first ones to give
me a room To teach negotiation and the folks
that work over there I'm kind of an on -call
advisor. I still teach down there sometimes and
I They'll call me up and ask me to help here
and there. We might be formalizing that a little
bit right now. But they are such an incredible
resource. The breadth of skill and capability
there, you know, well beyond things I can do,
people who are really good at marketing and technologies
and understanding, you know, legal considerations.
It's an incredible resource and anybody looking
to build a business or grow their business. locally
should be aware of Inspire and should try to
get involved there. They have a lot of new space,
and there's that kind of alchemy that you get
when you're able to rub shoulders with other
professionals in different disciplines. They
have coworking space that they're opening up,
and so there's just a ton of value down there.
And I'm not, as I said, I'm not formally involved
there. I show up and help when they want me to.
But I just admire what they do. And I owe a lot
to them for all the value they pumped into this
area. That's incredible, man. I love everything
you do. I'm so glad you came on. I got to ask
you one fun last question because you mentioned
you lived downstate and you moved up here not
knowing much about the area. And Matt and I always
joke on the show how there's so many different
perceptions of what upstate is. So living in
New York City for as long as you did, When you
hear Upstate, where's the line? Where does Upstate
start and end for you? I gotta know. There's
no wrong answer. Well, maybe there is. So I'm
from Long Island. Okay, all right, so you're
down down. And on Long Island, anything northwest
Chester is considered Upstate. That's what I
always say. Now I have just out of just to try
to be considerate to my neighbors and peers.
Yeah. I've tried to become a little bit more
nuanced in my understanding of that. I refer
to Western New York and Central New York. Yeah.
But all of it's upstate if you're northwest Chester.
That's it. Well, and that's Matt's thing is he's
like, you know, I don't care as much about the
line as people say upstate. We're not upstate.
This is central New York. There's western New
York. There's the southern tier. And I get that.
But, you know, we like to keep it simple. What's
upstate? And, you know, for a long time, you
know, my mom's from the Bronx originally. I spend
a lot of time down in the city. And it's funny
when I talk to people what they perceive as upstate.
And sometimes they're like, yeah, I went upstate
to the Catskills, they say, is a big one. But
I'm talking, they say like, Poughkeepsie, you
know. Poughkeepsie's not upstate. Anyway, Patrick
Griffin of TableForce, Morgan Strategic Advisors,
and the Erie Canal Museum. It has been a pleasure
talking to you. Best of luck and come back anytime.
Thank you, Mike. This is a real treat. I really
enjoyed it. And with that, we're going to say
goodbye on this Wednesday episode of Good News
York, sponsored by ads on the go. We'll be back
tomorrow. You can catch me on all socials at
MikeBTV, like and subscribe to us at Good News
York, where any podcasts are on all social media,
and GNY Sports, a new episode gonna drop tomorrow.
So we will see you then.