WEBVTT 00:00:09.000 --> 00:00:11.099 Welcome to Good News York, sponsored by ads on 00:00:11.099 --> 00:00:13.880 the go. Get ads on the go dot com. Shout out 00:00:13.880 --> 00:00:16.559 to Zach. Mike Perdice with you. Follow me on 00:00:16.559 --> 00:00:20.660 all socials at MikeBTV. I'm flying solo. Matt's 00:00:20.660 --> 00:00:22.519 out looking for Sasquatch. He believes in that 00:00:22.519 --> 00:00:25.050 stuff. That's fine. Don't fault him for it. I 00:00:25.050 --> 00:00:27.429 hope he finds him, but I'm not alone. I'm here 00:00:27.429 --> 00:00:32.090 with a very special guest the founder of Merrigan 00:00:32.090 --> 00:00:35.549 strategic advisors and partner at table force 00:00:35.549 --> 00:00:38.009 mr. Patrick Griffin Thank You Mike. Thank you. 00:00:38.049 --> 00:00:40.469 I wish I had enough people in here to give you 00:00:40.469 --> 00:00:42.710 a big, you know big welcoming I always hear it. 00:00:42.789 --> 00:00:44.530 I'm very excited to have you on the show We have 00:00:44.530 --> 00:00:47.630 so much to talk about you are a man of many talents 00:00:47.630 --> 00:00:52.009 and you just have such a great We're going to 00:00:52.009 --> 00:00:55.649 talk about obviously, did I say that again? Morrigan? 00:00:55.750 --> 00:00:57.630 Merrigan? Morrigan. Oh, I think I said Merrigan. 00:00:57.710 --> 00:01:00.630 It's Morrigan. We'll talk about Morrigan Strategic 00:01:00.630 --> 00:01:02.229 Advisors. We're going to talk about Table Force 00:01:02.229 --> 00:01:04.950 and, of course, the Erie Canal Museum, which 00:01:04.950 --> 00:01:07.250 is really exciting. But let's find out a little 00:01:07.250 --> 00:01:10.430 bit about you. Give us your background and how 00:01:10.430 --> 00:01:12.769 things all kind of started for you. Sure. Well, 00:01:12.769 --> 00:01:15.810 thank you, Mike. You're very welcome. So I came 00:01:15.810 --> 00:01:18.879 up, I grew up downstate. and spent most of my 00:01:18.879 --> 00:01:21.500 career in finance and moved up here to the Syracuse 00:01:21.500 --> 00:01:24.519 area nine years ago for family reasons. My wife 00:01:24.519 --> 00:01:27.840 is from Weedsport. We've got kids and live out 00:01:27.840 --> 00:01:31.099 in Fayetteville. Great. So I moved up here. I 00:01:31.099 --> 00:01:33.260 had spent about 10 years on Wall Street and then 00:01:33.260 --> 00:01:37.019 moved into banking in this area and then had 00:01:37.019 --> 00:01:40.650 the opportunity to start my own shop. And so 00:01:40.650 --> 00:01:42.909 I've been I started my own business in the beginning 00:01:42.909 --> 00:01:47.730 of 2024 and now I find myself with two businesses, 00:01:47.810 --> 00:01:50.670 which is a real treat and and how I got there 00:01:50.670 --> 00:01:53.650 is has been wild, you know, they say they always 00:01:53.650 --> 00:01:57.689 say the it's all in the journey and For me, I 00:01:57.689 --> 00:02:01.469 could not agree more. I've spent my entire life 00:02:01.469 --> 00:02:05.219 trying to teach myself about appreciating the 00:02:05.219 --> 00:02:08.340 journey and not worrying so much about the destination. 00:02:08.520 --> 00:02:11.780 It really is something that, it's like a mantra 00:02:11.780 --> 00:02:15.599 that I always tell myself. So you move upstate, 00:02:16.159 --> 00:02:17.680 you worked on Wall Street, you worked in the 00:02:17.680 --> 00:02:20.039 banking industry. What happens first? Because 00:02:20.039 --> 00:02:22.240 you're involved in so many companies and different 00:02:22.240 --> 00:02:25.900 projects. Sure. So I did a few things. So when 00:02:25.900 --> 00:02:29.669 I came up here, I... Two things happened kind 00:02:29.669 --> 00:02:31.870 of at the same time now. I was able to join a 00:02:31.870 --> 00:02:33.990 bank and I didn't come from a banking background 00:02:33.990 --> 00:02:36.449 despite having a finance background. There are 00:02:36.449 --> 00:02:39.590 nuances there in banking best practices. And 00:02:39.590 --> 00:02:42.210 so I was able to join a training program with 00:02:42.210 --> 00:02:43.629 one of the local banks and that really helped 00:02:43.629 --> 00:02:46.509 me get ready to be a banker. But when I launched, 00:02:46.990 --> 00:02:49.710 I found that while I was expecting to negotiate 00:02:49.710 --> 00:02:52.930 quite a bit as a banker and that having been 00:02:52.930 --> 00:02:56.270 a big part of my job down in New York, I wasn't 00:02:56.270 --> 00:02:58.069 negotiating as much, and I really missed it. 00:02:58.550 --> 00:03:00.349 And when I was negotiating, it was with people 00:03:00.349 --> 00:03:02.689 who were just less trained, a little bit less 00:03:02.689 --> 00:03:04.710 experienced, nothing against them. It was just 00:03:04.710 --> 00:03:06.389 less a part of their professional life than it 00:03:06.389 --> 00:03:11.330 was mine. And so I decided to put together some 00:03:11.330 --> 00:03:14.770 training curriculum around negotiation and decided 00:03:14.770 --> 00:03:18.289 to start teaching it. And so I called up, I think 00:03:18.289 --> 00:03:19.969 the first thing I did after teaching it internally 00:03:19.969 --> 00:03:22.669 at the bank a little bit is I... I called up 00:03:22.669 --> 00:03:26.229 the Tech Garden, now Inspire, a local incubator, 00:03:26.469 --> 00:03:28.330 and I said, hey, give me a room and I'll teach 00:03:28.330 --> 00:03:31.370 people how to negotiate. And they said yes, somehow, 00:03:31.469 --> 00:03:34.590 which was wonderful. And so I started trying 00:03:34.590 --> 00:03:36.370 to flex that muscle in a different way. Instead 00:03:36.370 --> 00:03:38.129 of actively negotiating deals, I just wanted 00:03:38.129 --> 00:03:41.330 to help develop people in their negotiation skills 00:03:41.330 --> 00:03:44.729 and still be able to engage in such a rich subject. 00:03:45.590 --> 00:03:47.710 And so while that was also happening, you mentioned 00:03:47.710 --> 00:03:51.280 the Erie Canal Museum. I wanted to get tied into 00:03:51.280 --> 00:03:53.159 the local community because, again, I'm not from 00:03:53.159 --> 00:03:56.879 here. And so I had an opportunity to join the 00:03:56.879 --> 00:03:58.819 Erie Canal Museum nine years ago, almost nine 00:03:58.819 --> 00:04:03.960 years ago, and wanted to dig my teeth in really 00:04:03.960 --> 00:04:05.719 and become part of the community in an important 00:04:05.719 --> 00:04:08.960 way. And it just so happens that I did it at 00:04:08.960 --> 00:04:11.539 a nice time. I did it at a fun time for growth 00:04:11.539 --> 00:04:14.400 for the museum, but also, as many people know, 00:04:14.439 --> 00:04:17.209 we are... at the end right now of what's referred 00:04:17.209 --> 00:04:19.649 to as the bicentennial period for the Erie Canal. 00:04:20.209 --> 00:04:21.930 So the Erie Canal was constructed over a period 00:04:21.930 --> 00:04:25.110 of seven years, and it was finished 200 years 00:04:25.110 --> 00:04:29.129 ago this year. Oh, wow. And so my tenure as a 00:04:29.129 --> 00:04:31.730 trustee there, and I was board president for 00:04:31.730 --> 00:04:33.889 a little while, I was treasurer for a long time, 00:04:33.930 --> 00:04:36.290 and I've been an executive trustee for most of 00:04:36.290 --> 00:04:40.170 the time, overlaps perfectly with that bicentennial 00:04:40.170 --> 00:04:42.709 period. And so it's just a through sheer coincidence, 00:04:42.990 --> 00:04:45.129 a really exciting time to be involved. And we've 00:04:45.129 --> 00:04:48.209 also, we have an amazing executive director and 00:04:48.209 --> 00:04:51.490 have a lot of energy around trying to tell the 00:04:51.490 --> 00:04:53.129 stories about the Erie Canal Museum, or excuse 00:04:53.129 --> 00:04:55.149 me, the Erie Canal a little bit differently. 00:04:55.509 --> 00:04:56.889 Trying to tell some stories that haven't been 00:04:56.889 --> 00:04:59.029 told about the construction and the impact on 00:04:59.029 --> 00:05:01.410 the community, technologies used, things like 00:05:01.410 --> 00:05:04.850 that. And so we're, we are launching a new angle 00:05:04.850 --> 00:05:07.769 on that, that we're just gearing up to find the 00:05:07.769 --> 00:05:09.670 best way to tell it right now. That's awesome. 00:05:10.050 --> 00:05:12.189 And I really respect that you wanted to get involved 00:05:12.189 --> 00:05:14.850 with the community. I think that's something 00:05:14.850 --> 00:05:18.209 that people overlook when you move to a new area. 00:05:18.709 --> 00:05:20.829 Getting involved with the community is not only 00:05:20.829 --> 00:05:23.389 rewarding for yourself, and it opens up networking 00:05:23.389 --> 00:05:27.750 and new opportunities, but it's also a nice gesture 00:05:27.750 --> 00:05:30.670 to want to be a part of the community. And I 00:05:30.670 --> 00:05:33.110 really love that. So I have so many ways I want 00:05:33.110 --> 00:05:35.050 to go because I'm so interested in all of this. 00:05:35.089 --> 00:05:38.029 But let's start with the negotiation TableForce. 00:05:39.029 --> 00:05:40.529 TableForce is a global company. You said there's 00:05:40.529 --> 00:05:43.470 only three employees there? Yes, so three. There 00:05:43.470 --> 00:05:46.370 are two owners and then me. I'm an honored partner. 00:05:47.329 --> 00:05:49.129 I will become an owner. I'm working my way into 00:05:49.129 --> 00:05:51.310 it right now. So what fascinates me about this 00:05:51.310 --> 00:05:53.930 is you specialize in negotiation, which is so 00:05:53.930 --> 00:05:57.750 important. And it's funny because as I was researching 00:05:57.750 --> 00:06:00.670 you when I knew you were coming on, I'm realizing 00:06:01.160 --> 00:06:03.819 This is kind of a one -of -one thing. There's 00:06:03.819 --> 00:06:07.879 not many negotiation training. There's not a 00:06:07.879 --> 00:06:09.420 lot of negotiation training. There's certainly 00:06:09.420 --> 00:06:11.759 not companies that offer the training. So it's 00:06:11.759 --> 00:06:15.139 kind of a two -part question. How did you know 00:06:15.139 --> 00:06:18.319 that you were good at negotiation and that it's 00:06:18.319 --> 00:06:20.060 something that you were strong enough to teach 00:06:20.060 --> 00:06:26.120 at? And how do you kind of turn that into a business? 00:06:27.060 --> 00:06:31.550 Great question, Mike. And I'll say that I didn't 00:06:31.550 --> 00:06:34.589 know I was good enough to teach it. But in terms 00:06:34.589 --> 00:06:36.829 of how I knew I was good enough at it as a subject 00:06:36.829 --> 00:06:40.850 itself, I was, my whole family are attorneys 00:06:40.850 --> 00:06:43.629 downstate. Oh, there you go. At the dinner table, 00:06:43.829 --> 00:06:45.829 the art of rhetoric, the art of argumentation. 00:06:46.170 --> 00:06:49.110 If you don't have it locked down, nobody's going 00:06:49.110 --> 00:06:52.350 to pass you the piece. That's right. But then 00:06:52.350 --> 00:06:54.790 growing up, I grew up about 60 miles east of 00:06:54.790 --> 00:06:57.170 New York City. And my friends and I, we would 00:06:57.170 --> 00:06:59.319 get on the train and go into New York. they'd 00:06:59.319 --> 00:07:01.360 all want to go shopping at the shops. And I would 00:07:01.360 --> 00:07:04.839 go to the street vendors when I'd have, you know, 00:07:05.000 --> 00:07:06.680 some money in my left pocket. I'd have a very 00:07:06.680 --> 00:07:08.660 specific amount of money in my right pocket. 00:07:08.680 --> 00:07:10.899 And I would just go and I would negotiate for 00:07:10.899 --> 00:07:13.180 knockoff Oakley sunglasses or whatever happened 00:07:13.180 --> 00:07:15.620 there. And it wasn't really about the sunglasses. 00:07:15.740 --> 00:07:18.279 It was about it was about learning the craft 00:07:18.279 --> 00:07:21.519 about about 14, 15 years old. Just trying to 00:07:21.519 --> 00:07:23.800 get my head around deal making in this way, because 00:07:23.800 --> 00:07:25.620 it was really different than, you know, retail 00:07:25.620 --> 00:07:28.839 experience that I was accustomed to. So. Then 00:07:28.839 --> 00:07:32.399 when I moved into the city and I was really fortunate 00:07:32.399 --> 00:07:34.720 to launch my professional career on Wall Street, 00:07:36.759 --> 00:07:39.660 the company was growing in such a way that I 00:07:39.660 --> 00:07:43.279 was able to grab some parts of the job that were 00:07:43.279 --> 00:07:45.319 particularly interesting to me. So I was able 00:07:45.319 --> 00:07:47.759 to, there was a bit of an a la carte element 00:07:47.759 --> 00:07:51.160 to what I was able to pick up. So I took over 00:07:51.160 --> 00:07:53.540 pricing strategy for my vertical because I was 00:07:53.540 --> 00:07:57.639 in a really specialized space. negotiation was 00:07:57.639 --> 00:07:59.600 just automatically a large part of the job and 00:07:59.600 --> 00:08:02.060 we were selling to global banks and global financial 00:08:02.060 --> 00:08:08.800 institutions. And so I was good at it. I needed 00:08:08.800 --> 00:08:11.579 to become better at it. And so and thankfully 00:08:11.579 --> 00:08:13.360 I was I was aware of that. I made some really 00:08:13.360 --> 00:08:15.980 silly mistakes early in my career, lost some 00:08:15.980 --> 00:08:18.600 face. And then what happened was as I was getting 00:08:18.600 --> 00:08:21.360 better at it and I knew I needed to, they brought 00:08:21.360 --> 00:08:23.019 in some trainers, some outside corporate trainers 00:08:23.019 --> 00:08:26.779 for us. And that was a two day program. And it 00:08:26.779 --> 00:08:29.360 was a light bulb moment for me. One that, wow, 00:08:29.399 --> 00:08:32.000 this is a formal discipline. I didn't know it 00:08:32.000 --> 00:08:34.080 was a formal discipline that one could really 00:08:34.080 --> 00:08:35.919 immerse themselves in in that way. I thought 00:08:35.919 --> 00:08:37.399 it was just something people had to be good at. 00:08:38.639 --> 00:08:43.440 And so that depth of opportunity of learning 00:08:43.440 --> 00:08:47.279 was really enchanting to me. And that introduced 00:08:47.279 --> 00:08:50.000 me to the whole world of academic writings about 00:08:50.000 --> 00:08:51.899 negotiation. So I just started reading it. I 00:08:51.899 --> 00:08:53.860 just started grabbing it. And so and I spent 00:08:53.860 --> 00:08:56.799 a few more years on on in the city and moved 00:08:56.799 --> 00:08:59.259 up here as I said I decided to start teaching 00:08:59.259 --> 00:09:01.700 it flex it that way no background in teaching 00:09:01.700 --> 00:09:04.539 at all So I put together curriculum based on 00:09:04.539 --> 00:09:06.320 that training a little bit but based on books 00:09:06.320 --> 00:09:08.539 I'd read based on my practical experience sure 00:09:08.539 --> 00:09:11.519 I Was probably terrible when I started because 00:09:11.519 --> 00:09:13.440 again, it's one thing to be good at the subject 00:09:13.440 --> 00:09:15.500 It's another thing to be good at teaching, but 00:09:15.500 --> 00:09:20.379 I'm an iterative I try to experiment. I try to 00:09:20.379 --> 00:09:24.759 always improve. And so I just kept at it. And 00:09:24.759 --> 00:09:26.820 I'm very proud to say that I got to the point 00:09:26.820 --> 00:09:30.179 where I know I was good at teaching negotiation. 00:09:31.639 --> 00:09:35.240 And then I had this opportunity to join TableForce. 00:09:35.299 --> 00:09:39.120 I went up meeting the minority partner and then 00:09:39.120 --> 00:09:43.070 the founder. just really pitched them on myself 00:09:43.070 --> 00:09:46.769 as you negotiate it. Well, we talk about really 00:09:46.769 --> 00:09:48.870 asking for what you want. We call it raising 00:09:48.870 --> 00:09:51.309 the bar. Right. So so trying to get out there 00:09:51.309 --> 00:09:53.149 and try. That's the first step for any negotiation 00:09:53.149 --> 00:09:55.029 is just people need to try to get what they want. 00:09:55.529 --> 00:09:59.929 And and thankfully, I I had that boldness in 00:09:59.929 --> 00:10:03.649 that moment and and went for it. And it is honestly 00:10:03.649 --> 00:10:05.470 the greatest joy in my professional career that 00:10:05.470 --> 00:10:06.990 I get to talk about negotiation for a living. 00:10:07.100 --> 00:10:09.700 This is so cool. You're such a unique individual 00:10:09.700 --> 00:10:13.799 and this is such a unique niche that you found. 00:10:14.259 --> 00:10:16.860 It's funny because here I was sitting here researching 00:10:16.860 --> 00:10:21.320 you going, you can specialize in negotiation? 00:10:21.720 --> 00:10:23.279 And that's how you kind of found it. You were 00:10:23.279 --> 00:10:25.480 like, oh wait, I can specialize in negotiation? 00:10:25.600 --> 00:10:29.539 I just thought I was good at it. Do you find 00:10:29.539 --> 00:10:31.759 so, you know, we hear the word negotiation, but 00:10:31.759 --> 00:10:34.480 I'm sure people interpret it in their own way 00:10:34.480 --> 00:10:38.440 Do you find that there's is there a difference 00:10:38.440 --> 00:10:41.720 between negotiation and a sales pitch? Is it 00:10:41.720 --> 00:10:46.019 kind of intertwined and Yeah, I guess I guess 00:10:46.019 --> 00:10:48.340 that's the question. What is it? Is it a little 00:10:48.340 --> 00:10:50.379 bit of sales? Is it its own thing is a little 00:10:50.379 --> 00:10:52.580 bit of both? It's a great question. So there's 00:10:52.580 --> 00:10:55.559 a Venn diagram involved certainly so To be good 00:10:55.559 --> 00:10:58.909 at sales to be really good at sales you have 00:10:58.909 --> 00:11:01.610 to be good in negotiation. And part of the reason 00:11:01.610 --> 00:11:03.870 for that is just recognizing that there are more 00:11:03.870 --> 00:11:06.909 variables than just cost you can play with. And 00:11:06.909 --> 00:11:09.529 knowing kind of what, the way I think about it 00:11:09.529 --> 00:11:11.149 visually is kind of just what levers to pull 00:11:11.149 --> 00:11:12.629 that are gonna make something attractive. So 00:11:12.629 --> 00:11:14.830 sales is a major component of it. And I should, 00:11:15.070 --> 00:11:17.669 as you said, when people hear the term negotiation, 00:11:17.809 --> 00:11:19.350 they think of a lot of different things. So let 00:11:19.350 --> 00:11:24.009 me clarify my niche. So what I specialize in 00:11:24.009 --> 00:11:26.889 is B2B negotiation. Business to business. Yeah, 00:11:27.090 --> 00:11:29.389 business to business. There are hostage negotiators 00:11:29.389 --> 00:11:32.370 out there. One particularly famous one likes 00:11:32.370 --> 00:11:35.049 to talk about how he thinks it applies to B2B 00:11:35.049 --> 00:11:37.450 negotiation. I pick fights with him on social 00:11:37.450 --> 00:11:40.870 media sometimes because he's wrong. Love it. 00:11:41.049 --> 00:11:45.970 Love it. I specialize in B2B negotiation. Sales 00:11:45.970 --> 00:11:48.440 is a component of that. Procurement is a... very 00:11:48.440 --> 00:11:51.279 significant component of that. When you have 00:11:51.279 --> 00:11:53.059 people on the other side who are trying to buy 00:11:53.059 --> 00:11:56.080 and trying to, you know, that sort of logistical 00:11:56.080 --> 00:11:58.539 supply chain component of operations, having 00:11:58.539 --> 00:12:00.460 people who can negotiate well is really critical. 00:12:01.480 --> 00:12:03.299 And then even just on towards other professionals, 00:12:03.340 --> 00:12:07.440 we work with a lot of project managers. There's 00:12:07.440 --> 00:12:09.879 a company I'll be teaching next month in Texas 00:12:09.879 --> 00:12:13.179 that they do a lot of large scale infrastructure 00:12:13.179 --> 00:12:16.480 construction. And so they'll get, you know, their 00:12:16.480 --> 00:12:20.309 project managers will They're managing their 00:12:20.309 --> 00:12:22.350 client relationships or whoever, you know, whatever 00:12:22.350 --> 00:12:24.009 governmental entity wants them to build something. 00:12:24.350 --> 00:12:26.769 They're also managing subcontractor relationships. 00:12:26.970 --> 00:12:29.070 There are change orders that come through. And 00:12:29.070 --> 00:12:30.590 so there are all these, you know, they have their 00:12:30.590 --> 00:12:33.190 plan, right? Mike Tyson famously said, everybody 00:12:33.190 --> 00:12:34.649 has a plan until they get punched in the mouth. 00:12:35.470 --> 00:12:37.389 This company is smart enough that they know that 00:12:37.389 --> 00:12:38.769 they need to have that plan for when they get 00:12:38.769 --> 00:12:41.470 punched in the mouth. And so their team needs 00:12:41.470 --> 00:12:43.669 to be prepared to react to things in the field. 00:12:44.009 --> 00:12:45.529 And they can't always go back to the well and 00:12:45.529 --> 00:12:48.399 say, how do we handle this? So they invest in 00:12:48.399 --> 00:12:50.559 their people. This is just one particular example. 00:12:50.600 --> 00:12:52.860 We work across industries, but they invest in 00:12:52.860 --> 00:12:56.879 their people so that their teams can be more 00:12:56.879 --> 00:12:59.340 responsive and faster and just more well -informed 00:12:59.340 --> 00:13:01.600 about how to navigate those challenges. That's 00:13:01.600 --> 00:13:04.059 incredible because, again, and I'm just giving 00:13:04.059 --> 00:13:07.980 you from the point of view of the regular Joe 00:13:07.980 --> 00:13:10.500 like me, when I hear the word negotiation, I 00:13:10.500 --> 00:13:13.340 always assume it's about money. But when I hear 00:13:13.340 --> 00:13:15.960 you speaking, I'm learning It's not just about 00:13:15.960 --> 00:13:20.000 money. Am I correct? It applies across the board. 00:13:20.200 --> 00:13:22.759 Can you give me some examples of... Well, let's 00:13:22.759 --> 00:13:24.580 think of like a really extreme example. Sure. 00:13:24.580 --> 00:13:28.240 I love extreme. Let's do it. I have a big hole 00:13:28.240 --> 00:13:29.820 in my backyard that I'm fixing. This is real. 00:13:29.899 --> 00:13:31.899 This is a true thing. I love it. I have a big 00:13:31.899 --> 00:13:35.500 hole and I had to go over to local lawn and garden, 00:13:35.820 --> 00:13:39.179 local company this weekend and I needed to order 00:13:39.179 --> 00:13:42.399 five yards of stone to fill it. So about 10 ,000 00:13:42.399 --> 00:13:47.350 pounds of stone. And so I go in there, I look 00:13:47.350 --> 00:13:50.389 at their price, the price is good, but what if 00:13:50.389 --> 00:13:51.950 they all of a sudden said, yep, that's the price 00:13:51.950 --> 00:13:55.350 for us to deliver to you in three months? I need 00:13:55.350 --> 00:13:59.149 it, I need it now, right? So that's a contrived 00:13:59.149 --> 00:14:02.730 example, right? But when we, it's illustrative 00:14:02.730 --> 00:14:04.570 because what we wanna realize is that, okay, 00:14:04.730 --> 00:14:07.429 so price is one thing, timing's another thing 00:14:07.429 --> 00:14:11.649 in terms of delivery. When I was in New York, 00:14:11.990 --> 00:14:14.639 price was, One of the smaller things I was probably 00:14:14.639 --> 00:14:17.039 negotiating most of the time My job is also to 00:14:17.039 --> 00:14:19.559 work closely with our legal counsel to to get 00:14:19.559 --> 00:14:22.659 legal terms across You know across the finish 00:14:22.659 --> 00:14:24.480 line and get stuff done So you have to look not 00:14:24.480 --> 00:14:27.179 just at price but at terms and conditions and 00:14:27.179 --> 00:14:29.720 at table force What we say is that it's not the 00:14:29.720 --> 00:14:33.220 price. It's the package So because really realistically 00:14:33.220 --> 00:14:35.600 there's a wide range of prices that a person 00:14:35.600 --> 00:14:38.779 can get comfortable with depending on what you 00:14:38.779 --> 00:14:42.120 tweak in the package and so If the price isn't 00:14:42.120 --> 00:14:44.320 working for you, you look for other outside areas 00:14:44.320 --> 00:14:46.340 of value where, all right, let me find something 00:14:46.340 --> 00:14:48.200 else I can add to this deal that's going to make 00:14:48.200 --> 00:14:50.779 that price worthwhile to me. Or maybe I want 00:14:50.779 --> 00:14:52.320 them to come down on the price a little bit. 00:14:52.399 --> 00:14:54.379 And so I'm going to seed this little term that 00:14:54.379 --> 00:14:56.700 I care about. That's fantastic. And so just thinking 00:14:56.700 --> 00:15:00.659 about it as really recognizing all the variables 00:15:00.659 --> 00:15:03.220 you can play with. And one of the most fun things 00:15:03.220 --> 00:15:06.720 in our training program is that, so our bread 00:15:06.720 --> 00:15:08.659 and butter, about 80 % of what we do is a two 00:15:08.659 --> 00:15:11.379 -day program. It's in -person. We don't use PowerPoint. 00:15:11.679 --> 00:15:13.679 It's interactive. There's typically two to three 00:15:13.679 --> 00:15:16.000 dozen people in a room at a time. And so it's 00:15:16.000 --> 00:15:18.840 a combination of us speaking, interacting, and 00:15:18.840 --> 00:15:21.100 then breakouts where they practice what we've 00:15:21.100 --> 00:15:24.600 taught them. And at the beginning of day one, 00:15:24.759 --> 00:15:26.519 a couple hours into it after they listen to me 00:15:26.519 --> 00:15:29.039 talk for a little bit, I give them their first 00:15:29.039 --> 00:15:32.940 little test. And it's one, two variables involved. 00:15:33.700 --> 00:15:36.659 By the end of the second day, we're sending them 00:15:36.659 --> 00:15:38.539 out. They have an hour to prepare, an hour to 00:15:38.539 --> 00:15:41.559 negotiate. They are negotiating. dozens of terms 00:15:41.559 --> 00:15:44.279 and conditions, dozens of variables, like 50 00:15:44.279 --> 00:15:47.899 different variables. And we get them to the point 00:15:47.899 --> 00:15:49.919 where day one, morning of, they might not be 00:15:49.919 --> 00:15:51.820 terribly comfortable with that. And at the end 00:15:51.820 --> 00:15:56.019 of day two, they are on time. They get it done 00:15:56.019 --> 00:15:59.019 in that hour with that hour of prep. And so a 00:15:59.019 --> 00:16:01.600 lot of it is just one of the fun things that 00:16:01.600 --> 00:16:05.519 I find is that negotiation is ancient as a practice. 00:16:05.720 --> 00:16:09.940 It's so integral to the human experience. And 00:16:09.940 --> 00:16:12.379 so I think a lot of what we do is just unlocking 00:16:12.379 --> 00:16:15.779 skill that people already have and finding a 00:16:15.779 --> 00:16:19.299 way to get them to it. So I had a guy I was teaching 00:16:19.299 --> 00:16:24.600 last year that he was afraid of negotiation. 00:16:24.779 --> 00:16:26.340 He didn't like to negotiate. He was worried about 00:16:26.340 --> 00:16:28.460 how people looked at him when he did it. He thought 00:16:28.460 --> 00:16:31.220 they would think less of him. But then I heard 00:16:31.220 --> 00:16:33.460 him negotiating one of the more complex deals. 00:16:33.620 --> 00:16:35.980 And his rhetorical skill, his ability from a 00:16:35.980 --> 00:16:39.059 debate perspective to get the other to get his 00:16:39.059 --> 00:16:40.899 counterparty on his side. And I don't say opponent, 00:16:41.039 --> 00:16:43.080 I say counterparty. To get his counterparty on 00:16:43.080 --> 00:16:47.539 the side was so nuanced, so skillful. And so 00:16:47.539 --> 00:16:49.720 I asked him, I said, your rhetoric is on point. 00:16:49.779 --> 00:16:53.340 You're so good at this. What's missing for you 00:16:53.340 --> 00:16:55.539 to be good at negotiation? And he's like, I just 00:16:55.539 --> 00:16:57.539 need to get my head around it. There was a mindset 00:16:57.539 --> 00:16:59.720 shift for him. He had so much of the skill already, 00:16:59.720 --> 00:17:02.120 but he needed to just tweak his thinking a little 00:17:02.120 --> 00:17:04.400 bit so that he could fully engage with it in 00:17:04.400 --> 00:17:07.880 a way to his benefit. Two weeks prior to my training, 00:17:07.920 --> 00:17:10.859 he had bought a car at a dealership for asking 00:17:10.859 --> 00:17:14.039 price. And leaving on the second day, he was 00:17:14.039 --> 00:17:15.900 chomping at the bit to get into his next negotiation 00:17:15.900 --> 00:17:19.680 because he was so excited. And that's part of 00:17:19.680 --> 00:17:21.140 it as well. And you and I talked about this earlier 00:17:21.140 --> 00:17:24.299 this morning. My core ethos around this is just 00:17:24.299 --> 00:17:27.779 that everybody can get better at negotiation. 00:17:28.880 --> 00:17:32.000 And I really think every personality type can 00:17:32.000 --> 00:17:34.119 be good at negotiation. It's just a matter of 00:17:34.119 --> 00:17:37.059 finding your way to it. Love that answer and 00:17:37.059 --> 00:17:39.579 you know as you're talking I'm realizing something 00:17:39.579 --> 00:17:41.980 I'm learning from you without you even trying 00:17:41.980 --> 00:17:45.680 to teach me is that it sounds like with negotiation 00:17:45.680 --> 00:17:49.000 it's it's sometimes a lot about thinking outside 00:17:49.000 --> 00:17:53.119 of the box like you know and as you were speaking 00:17:53.119 --> 00:17:55.019 I'm thinking have I ever done this and I the 00:17:55.019 --> 00:17:56.980 closest example I can think of is when we bought 00:17:56.980 --> 00:18:01.319 one of our houses and We negotiated on price 00:18:01.319 --> 00:18:03.940 and that kind of came to a stop and then it became 00:18:03.940 --> 00:18:08.460 okay We'll give you that price, but can you? 00:18:08.740 --> 00:18:11.920 Paint these walls can you you know and I remember 00:18:11.920 --> 00:18:14.700 thinking I remember saying to the realtor the 00:18:14.700 --> 00:18:17.940 real estate agent Oh, we can we can ask for that 00:18:17.940 --> 00:18:20.380 kind of stuff, and she's like oh absolutely and 00:18:20.380 --> 00:18:21.980 that kind of opened my mind like oh I thought 00:18:21.980 --> 00:18:23.759 it was like we just talked about price, and that's 00:18:23.759 --> 00:18:26.619 it and so am I am I right in in that that's a 00:18:26.460 --> 00:18:28.599 Part of the negotiation. Perfect example. Oh, 00:18:28.660 --> 00:18:30.880 awesome. And that's what we look for. We look 00:18:30.880 --> 00:18:35.339 for things that are of kind of disparate value, 00:18:35.539 --> 00:18:39.480 something that is... low value to them, but high 00:18:39.480 --> 00:18:42.700 value to me. And not always, right? Painting 00:18:42.700 --> 00:18:44.920 a wall is an example of like, it makes a big 00:18:44.920 --> 00:18:46.259 difference for you to have that wall painted 00:18:46.259 --> 00:18:49.119 by the time you move in. So that's more valuable 00:18:49.119 --> 00:18:51.640 to them, excuse me, that's more valuable to you 00:18:51.640 --> 00:18:53.579 than it would be to them to go through the effort 00:18:53.579 --> 00:18:57.619 of painting. And so that's an excellent example. 00:18:57.759 --> 00:19:01.599 And looking outside of just those kind of strict 00:19:01.599 --> 00:19:05.000 paradigms, strict parameters of negotiation outside 00:19:05.000 --> 00:19:08.059 of price, and getting creative, that's what turns 00:19:08.059 --> 00:19:10.839 a good deal into a great deal. That's fantastic. 00:19:10.920 --> 00:19:12.980 And it's so much fun when it works. Can you and 00:19:12.980 --> 00:19:14.160 I'm not going to put you on the spot. It's not 00:19:14.160 --> 00:19:17.000 like this is 60 minutes, but obviously with what 00:19:17.000 --> 00:19:19.099 you do, like you said, it's very nuanced. There's 00:19:19.099 --> 00:19:22.079 a lot to it. But let's just say for the sake 00:19:22.079 --> 00:19:24.779 of this podcast, like what are what are a couple 00:19:24.779 --> 00:19:28.539 things like just baseline starting negotiation 00:19:28.539 --> 00:19:31.079 tips you can give or or even a misconception 00:19:31.079 --> 00:19:32.980 about negotiation wherever you want to go with 00:19:32.980 --> 00:19:36.559 it. But sure. So let me attack each of those. 00:19:37.019 --> 00:19:39.099 So a misconception about negotiation for one 00:19:39.099 --> 00:19:42.079 thing, and this is, I'll tie this back to why 00:19:42.079 --> 00:19:43.579 I referred to them as a counterpart and not an 00:19:43.579 --> 00:19:48.079 opponent, especially in B2B negotiation, is that 00:19:48.079 --> 00:19:52.000 people think of negotiation as a battle. And 00:19:52.000 --> 00:19:54.880 really, negotiation when done well is collaborative 00:19:54.880 --> 00:19:58.220 problem solving. And so one of the things I did 00:19:58.220 --> 00:20:01.059 early on in my training, folks in negotiation, 00:20:01.380 --> 00:20:03.349 was I would put people, I would set people up 00:20:03.349 --> 00:20:05.289 for a mock negotiation. They would instinctually 00:20:05.289 --> 00:20:07.390 sit on opposite sides of the table. And I'd let 00:20:07.390 --> 00:20:09.009 them do that for a little while. And then I would 00:20:09.009 --> 00:20:10.150 make them get up and I'd make them sit on the 00:20:10.150 --> 00:20:12.329 same side of the table. And it's this silly little 00:20:12.329 --> 00:20:14.930 hack, but so that they just orient themselves 00:20:14.930 --> 00:20:16.630 like, you know what, we are actually both trying 00:20:16.630 --> 00:20:18.329 to solve this problem. Let's also face in the 00:20:18.329 --> 00:20:20.609 same direction, because we're figuratively facing 00:20:20.609 --> 00:20:22.309 in the same direction. We're trying to get this 00:20:22.309 --> 00:20:25.490 done. So let's get it done. So just dismantling 00:20:25.490 --> 00:20:28.910 this idea of of it as as negotiation is inherently 00:20:28.910 --> 00:20:31.430 combative. and turning it into collaborative. 00:20:32.349 --> 00:20:34.329 So if you're combative in a negotiation, you're 00:20:34.329 --> 00:20:36.269 more likely to wind up with what's referred to 00:20:36.269 --> 00:20:39.589 as a distributive negotiation. You have a fixed 00:20:39.589 --> 00:20:42.309 pie. Somebody's going to get 60 percent of it 00:20:42.309 --> 00:20:44.250 or whatever percent of it. The other person's 00:20:44.250 --> 00:20:47.609 going to get, you know, the remainder. You can 00:20:47.609 --> 00:20:50.789 shift then to a value -creating negotiation framework 00:20:50.789 --> 00:20:53.009 where both parties can really wind up walking 00:20:53.009 --> 00:20:54.369 away with more than they thought they could. 00:20:55.119 --> 00:20:58.740 A good example of this is, if you've got something 00:20:58.740 --> 00:21:00.400 you're being asked to give up, you want a little 00:21:00.400 --> 00:21:03.700 bit of value in exchange for it. Maybe an introduction, 00:21:04.079 --> 00:21:06.720 right? So, hey, I know that you work with X company. 00:21:07.160 --> 00:21:10.019 I would really like to talk to them. Can you 00:21:10.019 --> 00:21:12.420 write me a letter of reference to them? That 00:21:12.420 --> 00:21:15.660 is no cost. That is free for your other party. 00:21:15.740 --> 00:21:19.619 It's very valuable to you. And so we look for 00:21:19.619 --> 00:21:22.460 those areas because that really allows us to 00:21:22.460 --> 00:21:25.859 maximize that value. and identify those areas 00:21:25.859 --> 00:21:28.500 where things are differently valued between the 00:21:28.500 --> 00:21:31.839 two different parties. So let's talk about how 00:21:31.839 --> 00:21:34.200 everybody can get better at negotiation starting 00:21:34.200 --> 00:21:37.359 five minutes after they listen to this. The first 00:21:37.359 --> 00:21:39.640 thing I always tell people is just try. Ask, 00:21:40.059 --> 00:21:42.599 right? You want something, ask for it. You never 00:21:42.599 --> 00:21:44.539 get anything you don't ask for, generally speaking. 00:21:44.799 --> 00:21:49.720 And so ask, ask, ask. And when you do that, one, 00:21:49.740 --> 00:21:52.180 it'll stop being scary because it's scary for 00:21:52.180 --> 00:21:55.670 a lot of people. But two, you'll just learn about 00:21:55.670 --> 00:21:59.529 how to get what you want. And so it's always 00:21:59.529 --> 00:22:01.589 in the asking and getting comfortable with being 00:22:01.589 --> 00:22:04.589 told no, right? So just getting rid of that fear. 00:22:05.269 --> 00:22:09.670 But the other component that is really important 00:22:09.670 --> 00:22:11.569 and integral to getting better is never give 00:22:11.569 --> 00:22:13.710 anything up without getting something in return. 00:22:14.349 --> 00:22:16.990 It doesn't have to be a lot. It doesn't have 00:22:16.990 --> 00:22:18.509 to mean the same thing to them that it does to 00:22:18.509 --> 00:22:20.829 you, right? An introduction, a letter of reference. 00:22:21.490 --> 00:22:24.069 But if I'm giving something up, if I'm ceding 00:22:24.069 --> 00:22:26.029 a position, I'm going to ask you for something 00:22:26.029 --> 00:22:28.190 in return. And at TableForce, we refer to that 00:22:28.190 --> 00:22:31.730 as the habit and the loop. You get into this 00:22:31.730 --> 00:22:34.369 habit and this loop of, yes, I can do that if 00:22:34.369 --> 00:22:36.529 you do this. No, I can't do that. But if you 00:22:36.529 --> 00:22:38.789 can do this, then maybe I can help you out here. 00:22:39.009 --> 00:22:42.589 This kind of understanding of exchange. Push 00:22:42.589 --> 00:22:46.750 and pull. Yeah. And what that does is it's not 00:22:46.750 --> 00:22:49.369 just extractive, right? You're not just taking, 00:22:49.450 --> 00:22:51.569 taking, taking. you're exchanging and when you're 00:22:51.569 --> 00:22:53.509 exchanging you're actually also building a relationship 00:22:53.509 --> 00:22:54.849 and you're making things a little bit stickier. 00:22:55.130 --> 00:22:57.690 So when people negotiate our way they they tend 00:22:57.690 --> 00:22:59.670 to wind up with more strategic partnerships than 00:22:59.670 --> 00:23:02.130 they do just transactional relationships because 00:23:02.130 --> 00:23:04.029 transactional relationships are kind of bulky 00:23:04.029 --> 00:23:06.369 and cumbersome and yeah and when you can move 00:23:06.369 --> 00:23:08.009 towards more of a strategic partnership there 00:23:08.009 --> 00:23:12.269 are some profound efficiencies there. So if before 00:23:12.269 --> 00:23:15.369 I talk to you if I knew someone was going into 00:23:15.369 --> 00:23:19.410 a negotiation and they came out I might ask So 00:23:19.410 --> 00:23:24.190 did you win? Is it a win -loss thing? No. So 00:23:24.190 --> 00:23:28.450 it can be. It ideally isn't. And especially, 00:23:28.509 --> 00:23:33.829 again, I'll qualify in B2B negotiation. We teach 00:23:33.829 --> 00:23:38.069 people how to get win -win outcomes because in 00:23:38.069 --> 00:23:41.069 a B2B negotiation, in the vast majority of B2B 00:23:41.069 --> 00:23:44.569 negotiations, your goal is to interact with that 00:23:44.569 --> 00:23:48.089 other party again. If this works, I want to come 00:23:48.089 --> 00:23:50.589 back. I wanted to do another deal. I want to 00:23:50.589 --> 00:23:57.230 buy more drill bits from you. So there is opportunity. 00:23:57.809 --> 00:24:00.390 And when you're in a negotiation, you want to 00:24:00.390 --> 00:24:02.329 think about your immediate needs, what you're 00:24:02.329 --> 00:24:03.549 trying to get out of it. But you also want to 00:24:03.549 --> 00:24:05.369 set that stage for a continued relationship. 00:24:06.089 --> 00:24:09.089 And so moving to an area where it's win -win, 00:24:09.170 --> 00:24:12.680 and you want to know what you can give up. You 00:24:12.680 --> 00:24:14.140 need to know what you can give up, you need to 00:24:14.140 --> 00:24:16.539 know what you have to absolutely shield. So as 00:24:16.539 --> 00:24:18.740 long as you stay within that and you protect 00:24:18.740 --> 00:24:22.359 what you need to, and you never give up without 00:24:22.359 --> 00:24:25.000 getting something in return, then that is what 00:24:25.000 --> 00:24:27.279 turns negotiations into win -win. So win -lose 00:24:27.279 --> 00:24:30.220 negotiations obviously exist, but when done well, 00:24:30.559 --> 00:24:32.539 win -win negotiations are really achievable. 00:24:32.839 --> 00:24:35.140 Yeah, and that makes total sense. I've heard 00:24:35.140 --> 00:24:38.880 many times in many instances where someone said, 00:24:39.019 --> 00:24:40.960 just get to the next meeting. That's the goal 00:24:40.960 --> 00:24:43.700 of this meeting is get to the next one. And it 00:24:43.700 --> 00:24:46.819 sounds like that applies. Patrick Griffin of 00:24:46.819 --> 00:24:49.720 Table Force. I could talk about the negotiation 00:24:49.720 --> 00:24:52.920 aspect all day, but I want to respect your time. 00:24:53.180 --> 00:24:56.480 And Danny, you know, he's going to kill me if 00:24:56.480 --> 00:25:01.440 I keep going. I want to talk about the Erie Canal 00:25:01.440 --> 00:25:04.240 Museum because this is fascinating. And the Erie 00:25:04.240 --> 00:25:06.220 Canal, it's funny because when I heard about 00:25:06.220 --> 00:25:08.720 this, I was excited. Because as you know Micron 00:25:08.720 --> 00:25:11.819 is coming into the Syracuse area. So one of the 00:25:11.819 --> 00:25:13.400 things that we keep hearing over and over from 00:25:13.400 --> 00:25:15.059 different people is they're saying that this 00:25:15.059 --> 00:25:17.720 is the biggest thing since the Erie Canal. So 00:25:17.720 --> 00:25:20.519 obviously people from around here know the significance 00:25:20.519 --> 00:25:23.180 of the Erie Canal and you know a little bit of 00:25:23.180 --> 00:25:26.420 the history. But to have an entire museum kind 00:25:26.420 --> 00:25:28.799 of reiterates my point of that it really is a 00:25:28.799 --> 00:25:31.200 big deal. I know you said you wanted to get involved 00:25:31.200 --> 00:25:33.220 because you want to get involved in the community. 00:25:33.900 --> 00:25:36.980 Was it just. Something that was kind of on your 00:25:36.980 --> 00:25:38.779 radar and you saw it like all of the Erie Canal 00:25:38.779 --> 00:25:41.880 Museum I've always wanted to or or how did this 00:25:41.880 --> 00:25:45.599 come about? Great question. So I I wanted to 00:25:45.599 --> 00:25:48.619 dig into the community. I knew only a little 00:25:48.619 --> 00:25:51.660 bit about Central New York and Syracuse But I 00:25:51.660 --> 00:25:53.900 knew enough to know that the Erie Canal was a 00:25:53.900 --> 00:25:57.200 pivotal Factor in the emergence of Syracuse as 00:25:57.200 --> 00:26:00.720 a city. And so I felt and I continue to feel 00:26:00.720 --> 00:26:04.130 that in order to understand Syracuse you have 00:26:04.130 --> 00:26:06.309 to understand the canal. You have to understand 00:26:06.309 --> 00:26:10.369 the impact of that massive economic and technological 00:26:10.369 --> 00:26:15.390 achievement. Yeah. And so it's really remarkable. 00:26:15.569 --> 00:26:17.930 And one of the things, so the Erie Canal itself, 00:26:17.930 --> 00:26:20.210 as I said, was built over a period of seven years. 00:26:21.069 --> 00:26:23.529 They had a toll for it at the time. So you had 00:26:23.529 --> 00:26:25.329 to pay a toll. And yet what happened was there 00:26:25.329 --> 00:26:27.490 was a series of tolls. There were what are called 00:26:27.490 --> 00:26:29.269 whalock buildings, where you would bring your 00:26:29.269 --> 00:26:32.630 boat into this building. It's a lock that would 00:26:32.630 --> 00:26:34.910 weigh your boat waylock building and that would 00:26:34.910 --> 00:26:36.450 determine how much fare you paid how much toll 00:26:36.450 --> 00:26:40.109 you paid The Erie Canal Museum in downtown Syracuse 00:26:40.109 --> 00:26:42.369 is in the only remaining waylock building in 00:26:42.369 --> 00:26:46.269 North America. So that is Exactly where the original 00:26:46.269 --> 00:26:49.589 canal passed through Wow, and and it's in this 00:26:49.589 --> 00:26:52.650 building that is another technological marvel 00:26:52.650 --> 00:26:55.009 And so, you know, we don't have the scales there 00:26:55.009 --> 00:27:00.130 anything any longer But but just conceptually 00:27:01.039 --> 00:27:03.839 It's an incredible thing to think about. How 00:27:03.839 --> 00:27:06.839 do you solve this problem 200 years ago? And 00:27:06.839 --> 00:27:09.220 the people who built a canal had never built 00:27:09.220 --> 00:27:12.079 a canal before. So they were making up new technology 00:27:12.079 --> 00:27:15.579 left and right to pull a stump, move a rock, 00:27:16.259 --> 00:27:18.000 or figure out the grade, because you need to 00:27:18.000 --> 00:27:19.920 make sure that you're not moving too far up or 00:27:19.920 --> 00:27:25.480 down. And so it's such a rich topic. And I felt 00:27:25.480 --> 00:27:27.849 that it was a good fit. for integrating myself 00:27:27.849 --> 00:27:29.769 in the community while also learning about the 00:27:29.769 --> 00:27:31.750 history of Syracuse. Yeah and it's incredible 00:27:31.750 --> 00:27:34.430 you know the lock systems. I remember growing 00:27:34.430 --> 00:27:37.509 up and and and seeing you know my my parents 00:27:37.509 --> 00:27:40.410 teaching me about you know lock 17 or lock 24 00:27:40.410 --> 00:27:43.829 along you know and and just watching how these 00:27:43.829 --> 00:27:47.130 things operate and it's absolutely incredible 00:27:47.130 --> 00:27:49.650 to think about people coming together back then 00:27:49.650 --> 00:27:53.450 and doing it first. There's a lot going on at 00:27:53.450 --> 00:27:56.849 the Erie Canal Museum. What's your mission? Is 00:27:56.849 --> 00:28:00.930 it to just spread more of the history about the 00:28:00.930 --> 00:28:04.190 canal? There's events going on. You have galleries 00:28:04.190 --> 00:28:06.730 that are mainstays, but you have rotating galleries 00:28:06.730 --> 00:28:10.490 or exhibits, excuse me. What is the Erie Canal 00:28:10.490 --> 00:28:12.940 Museum all about? So normally I'd be able to 00:28:12.940 --> 00:28:14.740 quote for you our actual mission statement, but 00:28:14.740 --> 00:28:18.660 I'm worried I'll just love it if I try now. But 00:28:18.660 --> 00:28:20.900 the goal of the Erie Canal Museum is to educate 00:28:20.900 --> 00:28:25.240 the community on the impact both social, technological, 00:28:25.559 --> 00:28:28.420 and economic on the communities in central New 00:28:28.420 --> 00:28:32.960 York. And one of the things about that is that 00:28:32.960 --> 00:28:36.359 we have been telling the story a certain way 00:28:36.359 --> 00:28:39.869 for a long time. And there are aspects of that 00:28:39.869 --> 00:28:41.970 story that we haven't always told. Well, for 00:28:41.970 --> 00:28:43.890 example, the impact on the indigenous community 00:28:43.890 --> 00:28:46.329 on the on the Native American nations here. And 00:28:46.329 --> 00:28:48.470 so one of the big things that we're trying to 00:28:48.470 --> 00:28:52.029 do under the under the leadership of our executive 00:28:52.029 --> 00:28:55.990 director is get better at telling those stories 00:28:55.990 --> 00:28:59.769 that we haven't always told and in an inequitable 00:28:59.769 --> 00:29:01.930 way and in a way that really reflects the reality 00:29:01.930 --> 00:29:04.430 of those of those changes, both good and negative, 00:29:05.009 --> 00:29:08.839 positive and negative. And so it It is the nice 00:29:08.839 --> 00:29:11.779 thing about it is that there is just so much 00:29:11.779 --> 00:29:13.839 there. And so yes, as you said, we have some 00:29:13.839 --> 00:29:16.980 fixed exhibits. We have rotating exhibits that 00:29:16.980 --> 00:29:19.599 come through. We're getting better and better 00:29:19.599 --> 00:29:22.220 every year throwing events and we've got really 00:29:22.220 --> 00:29:25.140 incredible professionals at the museum that put 00:29:25.140 --> 00:29:27.240 together instructional programs. We have a gala 00:29:27.240 --> 00:29:29.480 coming up where we're collaborating with the 00:29:29.480 --> 00:29:32.839 Onondaga Historical Association. That is this 00:29:32.839 --> 00:29:35.859 month and they may or may not come out before 00:29:35.859 --> 00:29:41.480 this airs. But we're just, we are, so the trustees 00:29:41.480 --> 00:29:46.339 and the employees there are all sort of a self 00:29:46.339 --> 00:29:48.720 -selected group of people who are just trying 00:29:48.720 --> 00:29:51.839 to do things better and use some skills we developed 00:29:51.839 --> 00:29:54.539 in our professional lives for a different purpose. 00:29:55.299 --> 00:29:57.579 And because of that, you wind up with this really 00:29:57.579 --> 00:30:01.980 wonderful cocktail of creativity and curiosity 00:30:01.980 --> 00:30:06.420 and just storytelling. It's amazing. Is there 00:30:06.420 --> 00:30:07.700 something, again, I feel like I'm putting you 00:30:07.700 --> 00:30:11.640 on the spot, but is there one kind of cool fact 00:30:11.640 --> 00:30:13.460 about the Erie Canal that you can think of off 00:30:13.460 --> 00:30:15.059 the top of your head? Like if I was to go to 00:30:15.059 --> 00:30:17.980 the museum and leave and go, I can't believe 00:30:17.980 --> 00:30:21.599 that this happened or this is a part of it. What's 00:30:21.599 --> 00:30:23.099 something that people don't know too much about? 00:30:23.240 --> 00:30:26.099 Sure. So I think my favorite thing, and I don't 00:30:26.099 --> 00:30:28.059 know how specifically we talk about this in the 00:30:28.059 --> 00:30:35.670 museum exhibits itself, but so. New York obviously 00:30:35.670 --> 00:30:37.910 was a major economic center continues to be but 00:30:37.910 --> 00:30:42.190 200 years ago. It already was and and By virtue 00:30:42.190 --> 00:30:45.450 of developing the Erie Canal You connect the 00:30:45.450 --> 00:30:47.130 Great Lakes to New York City. Everybody knows 00:30:47.130 --> 00:30:49.869 that right now go down the Hudson you get to 00:30:49.869 --> 00:30:51.690 New York But what a lot of people don't think 00:30:51.690 --> 00:30:53.990 about is that once you can connect to the Great 00:30:53.990 --> 00:30:56.269 Lakes system You can connect to the Mississippi 00:30:56.269 --> 00:30:58.789 and once you can connect to the Mississippi you 00:30:58.789 --> 00:31:01.089 can connect to the Gulf of Mexico Really? And 00:31:01.089 --> 00:31:04.299 so because of that there is a massive triangle 00:31:04.299 --> 00:31:07.660 of the eastern portion of this country that becomes 00:31:07.660 --> 00:31:10.480 an economic circuit instead and so it kind of 00:31:10.480 --> 00:31:14.160 completes the canal completed this circuit and 00:31:14.160 --> 00:31:18.420 became an absolute economic revolution as a result 00:31:18.420 --> 00:31:21.500 and I think it's really a major part you know 00:31:21.500 --> 00:31:23.359 it's funny the federal government at the time 00:31:23.359 --> 00:31:25.480 refused to contribute any funds to the development 00:31:25.480 --> 00:31:26.700 of the New York Canal Museum they considered 00:31:26.700 --> 00:31:29.319 a New York problem New York state problem and 00:31:29.319 --> 00:31:33.950 uh but the impact the benefits for the nation 00:31:33.950 --> 00:31:36.710 as a whole would be really difficult to calculate. 00:31:37.589 --> 00:31:39.109 Yeah. You should have went back to the federal 00:31:39.109 --> 00:31:40.789 government and said, this isn't a New York problem. 00:31:41.109 --> 00:31:42.509 We're talking about the Mississippi. We're talking 00:31:42.509 --> 00:31:44.890 about, you know, this giant triangle. That's 00:31:44.890 --> 00:31:47.329 the exact answer I was hoping for. That is so 00:31:47.329 --> 00:31:50.990 cool. Just when I thought... Okay, we've talked 00:31:50.990 --> 00:31:52.670 about table for us. We've talked about the Erie 00:31:52.670 --> 00:31:55.970 Canal Museum. You also work for Morgan Strategic 00:31:55.970 --> 00:31:59.269 Advisors. So first of all, do you sleep ever? 00:31:59.769 --> 00:32:01.809 But second of all, tell us a little bit about 00:32:01.809 --> 00:32:05.150 the Strategic Advisors. Morgan Strategic Advisors. 00:32:05.250 --> 00:32:07.349 So Morgan Strategic Advisors is my company. My 00:32:07.349 --> 00:32:10.029 wife and I own it together, but she's not operationally 00:32:10.029 --> 00:32:15.210 involved. And it's... is my, it's what we call 00:32:15.210 --> 00:32:17.529 a fractional chief financial officer practice. 00:32:18.029 --> 00:32:22.369 So I'm essentially a consultant. And I work as 00:32:22.369 --> 00:32:24.549 a chief financial officer for small companies 00:32:24.549 --> 00:32:27.349 that are growing but aren't yet large enough 00:32:27.349 --> 00:32:29.829 where they can really justify a full -time CFO. 00:32:30.470 --> 00:32:33.650 And so the practice of being a fractional CFO 00:32:33.650 --> 00:32:36.410 is pretty broad and takes a bunch of different 00:32:36.410 --> 00:32:40.490 shapes. And it's a growing So in 2025, it was 00:32:40.490 --> 00:32:43.589 expected to grow about 60 % in terms of the number 00:32:43.589 --> 00:32:46.309 of people or opportunities in the fractional 00:32:46.309 --> 00:32:50.109 CFO space. And so each of us has to, anybody 00:32:50.109 --> 00:32:52.630 who considers themselves a fractional CFO, you 00:32:52.630 --> 00:32:54.390 have to be specific about what you're good at. 00:32:55.670 --> 00:32:57.890 And so fractional means part time, but it also 00:32:57.890 --> 00:33:00.910 means part in scope. And so what I do, where 00:33:00.910 --> 00:33:07.289 I specialize, is that I work with companies that 00:33:07.289 --> 00:33:10.549 already exist So I don't really work with startups. 00:33:11.509 --> 00:33:12.950 So I work with companies that already exist, 00:33:13.309 --> 00:33:16.069 have product -market fit, and are looking to 00:33:16.069 --> 00:33:18.450 grow, but growth is expensive. So how do you 00:33:18.450 --> 00:33:21.009 do that? And so I come in with this strategic 00:33:21.009 --> 00:33:22.849 guidance from a financial perspective. I said, 00:33:22.930 --> 00:33:25.549 okay, you're at this inflection point where you 00:33:25.549 --> 00:33:27.829 need to grow, but you need to know how to do 00:33:27.829 --> 00:33:29.549 that in a smart way. You need to have the right 00:33:29.549 --> 00:33:31.890 systems in place that are sustainable. Maybe 00:33:31.890 --> 00:33:35.529 you need to access outside capital. And so I 00:33:35.529 --> 00:33:38.150 help them get to that next level. And my goal 00:33:38.150 --> 00:33:40.390 with these, so currently, this is a practice 00:33:40.390 --> 00:33:42.690 I keep small on purpose. Actually, there was 00:33:42.690 --> 00:33:45.769 about a year ago. So I started this practice 00:33:45.769 --> 00:33:49.910 in the spring of 2024. And it only happened because 00:33:49.910 --> 00:33:51.849 somebody approached me and asked me to help. 00:33:52.210 --> 00:33:54.230 It was somebody with an existing business, same 00:33:54.230 --> 00:33:57.809 thing, opening a second location and didn't know 00:33:57.809 --> 00:33:59.589 how to do that from a financial perspective. 00:34:00.390 --> 00:34:03.589 And so I said, sure, I'll help. And then I figured 00:34:03.589 --> 00:34:06.549 out how to be good at that. Then somebody else 00:34:06.549 --> 00:34:07.869 approached me and asked me for help and then 00:34:07.869 --> 00:34:09.690 somebody else and all of a sudden I had six companies 00:34:09.690 --> 00:34:11.710 that wanted my help with this and it was too 00:34:11.710 --> 00:34:14.630 many for a few reasons one I was really focused 00:34:14.630 --> 00:34:20.010 on negotiation table force and And two I I couldn't 00:34:20.010 --> 00:34:23.010 do well at six. It was too many I couldn't give 00:34:23.010 --> 00:34:25.650 them all the attention and the care. Yeah, and 00:34:25.650 --> 00:34:28.730 so I fired all my clients except for one this 00:34:28.730 --> 00:34:30.769 this wonderful analytical lab out in Rochester 00:34:30.769 --> 00:34:34.920 and kept it at that level and then earlier this 00:34:34.920 --> 00:34:37.519 year I received a call from some of the folks 00:34:37.519 --> 00:34:39.320 at Center State and they asked me to speak with 00:34:39.320 --> 00:34:41.019 another company and so I took on a second client. 00:34:41.840 --> 00:34:45.739 And that's been a real joy because it allows 00:34:45.739 --> 00:34:48.619 me to flex these skills, these capabilities that 00:34:48.619 --> 00:34:53.480 I developed in my financial career for these 00:34:53.480 --> 00:34:55.679 companies that just get me so excited because 00:34:55.679 --> 00:34:59.019 the founders are just incredible people. And 00:34:59.019 --> 00:35:00.960 so I get to be selective with who I work with. 00:35:01.139 --> 00:35:02.800 I only work with people for whom I can be an 00:35:02.800 --> 00:35:06.739 unabashed cheerleader. And so that's just a source 00:35:06.739 --> 00:35:08.539 of joy for me. So there's a little money in it, 00:35:08.619 --> 00:35:12.880 but really it's a source of joy for me. And it 00:35:12.880 --> 00:35:16.460 happened by surprise. It wasn't by design. One 00:35:16.460 --> 00:35:19.639 factor that we didn't mention that is helpful 00:35:19.639 --> 00:35:24.079 is I... After grad school, I wound up co -writing 00:35:24.079 --> 00:35:26.739 a textbook on working capital management. And 00:35:26.739 --> 00:35:29.639 so I'd had that sort of academic endeavor of 00:35:29.639 --> 00:35:32.840 understanding working capital needs between different 00:35:32.840 --> 00:35:35.860 industries. And then my experience as a banker 00:35:35.860 --> 00:35:38.679 was really helpful with that as well. So I found 00:35:38.679 --> 00:35:45.840 a way to redeploy my skill. And I do sleep. I've 00:35:45.840 --> 00:35:48.619 got three kids. I have another board I work on 00:35:48.619 --> 00:35:52.309 as well. And I've got these businesses. and it's 00:35:52.309 --> 00:35:56.190 interesting because it's all um one of the joys 00:35:56.190 --> 00:35:58.309 of being an entrepreneur in this case is that 00:35:58.309 --> 00:36:01.530 you know i set my own schedule and i really feel 00:36:01.530 --> 00:36:04.570 like i have more time than i've had in years 00:36:04.570 --> 00:36:06.789 and i don't think that's true i just think i'm 00:36:06.789 --> 00:36:08.909 in command of my time and i'm doing more things 00:36:08.909 --> 00:36:11.449 that bring me joy and so it doesn't feel like 00:36:11.449 --> 00:36:13.269 you know the the work doesn't feel like toil 00:36:13.269 --> 00:36:16.289 if if you catch the distinction 100 % that's 00:36:16.289 --> 00:36:18.510 the old you know the old cliche of like if you 00:36:18.510 --> 00:36:21.900 if you end up having a career doing something 00:36:21.900 --> 00:36:24.980 you love, it doesn't feel like work. You're an 00:36:24.980 --> 00:36:30.059 incredible entrepreneur and person. I'm really 00:36:30.059 --> 00:36:33.099 impressed with everything you do. I wish I had 00:36:33.099 --> 00:36:34.820 thought about it. We should have done a mock 00:36:34.820 --> 00:36:37.119 negotiation. That would have been hilarious and 00:36:37.119 --> 00:36:40.219 I would have failed miserably. Before we go, 00:36:40.440 --> 00:36:44.340 Patrick Griffin, you are incredible. What are 00:36:44.340 --> 00:36:46.900 some of the things coming up for maybe Morgan, 00:36:47.679 --> 00:36:50.360 strategic advisors, TableForce, the Erie Canal 00:36:50.360 --> 00:36:53.019 Museum, any plugs, any events, any websites, 00:36:53.460 --> 00:36:54.820 social media, anything you want to talk about? 00:36:55.579 --> 00:37:00.900 So, I have to give a lot of credit to the, formerly 00:37:00.900 --> 00:37:03.300 called the Tech Garden, now inspired the Innovation 00:37:03.300 --> 00:37:06.699 Hub. They just had their grand opening. Almost 00:37:06.699 --> 00:37:09.500 two weeks ago of their new facility downtown 00:37:09.500 --> 00:37:12.139 32 million dollar renovation of this space And 00:37:12.139 --> 00:37:15.440 what they do is they help businesses grow and 00:37:15.440 --> 00:37:17.360 they do it in a much more comprehensive way than 00:37:17.360 --> 00:37:21.099 I do but The Tech Garden at the time now inspire 00:37:21.099 --> 00:37:24.039 Was really instrumental in me even being here 00:37:24.039 --> 00:37:25.719 today because they were the first ones to give 00:37:25.719 --> 00:37:28.559 me a room To teach negotiation and the folks 00:37:28.559 --> 00:37:31.699 that work over there I'm kind of an on -call 00:37:31.699 --> 00:37:33.880 advisor. I still teach down there sometimes and 00:37:33.880 --> 00:37:36.219 I They'll call me up and ask me to help here 00:37:36.219 --> 00:37:38.159 and there. We might be formalizing that a little 00:37:38.159 --> 00:37:41.179 bit right now. But they are such an incredible 00:37:41.179 --> 00:37:43.659 resource. The breadth of skill and capability 00:37:43.659 --> 00:37:46.480 there, you know, well beyond things I can do, 00:37:46.519 --> 00:37:49.760 people who are really good at marketing and technologies 00:37:49.760 --> 00:37:51.940 and understanding, you know, legal considerations. 00:37:53.840 --> 00:37:55.760 It's an incredible resource and anybody looking 00:37:55.760 --> 00:38:00.329 to build a business or grow their business. locally 00:38:00.329 --> 00:38:02.750 should be aware of Inspire and should try to 00:38:02.750 --> 00:38:05.269 get involved there. They have a lot of new space, 00:38:06.289 --> 00:38:10.469 and there's that kind of alchemy that you get 00:38:10.469 --> 00:38:12.469 when you're able to rub shoulders with other 00:38:12.469 --> 00:38:14.489 professionals in different disciplines. They 00:38:14.489 --> 00:38:16.010 have coworking space that they're opening up, 00:38:16.070 --> 00:38:18.010 and so there's just a ton of value down there. 00:38:18.369 --> 00:38:21.510 And I'm not, as I said, I'm not formally involved 00:38:21.510 --> 00:38:24.469 there. I show up and help when they want me to. 00:38:24.869 --> 00:38:27.590 But I just admire what they do. And I owe a lot 00:38:27.590 --> 00:38:31.110 to them for all the value they pumped into this 00:38:31.110 --> 00:38:34.510 area. That's incredible, man. I love everything 00:38:34.510 --> 00:38:36.789 you do. I'm so glad you came on. I got to ask 00:38:36.789 --> 00:38:39.469 you one fun last question because you mentioned 00:38:39.469 --> 00:38:42.769 you lived downstate and you moved up here not 00:38:42.769 --> 00:38:44.869 knowing much about the area. And Matt and I always 00:38:44.869 --> 00:38:47.690 joke on the show how there's so many different 00:38:47.690 --> 00:38:50.670 perceptions of what upstate is. So living in 00:38:50.670 --> 00:38:53.280 New York City for as long as you did, When you 00:38:53.280 --> 00:38:56.000 hear Upstate, where's the line? Where does Upstate 00:38:56.000 --> 00:38:57.840 start and end for you? I gotta know. There's 00:38:57.840 --> 00:39:01.980 no wrong answer. Well, maybe there is. So I'm 00:39:01.980 --> 00:39:04.099 from Long Island. Okay, all right, so you're 00:39:04.099 --> 00:39:06.760 down down. And on Long Island, anything northwest 00:39:06.760 --> 00:39:08.719 Chester is considered Upstate. That's what I 00:39:08.719 --> 00:39:12.159 always say. Now I have just out of just to try 00:39:12.159 --> 00:39:14.059 to be considerate to my neighbors and peers. 00:39:14.119 --> 00:39:15.980 Yeah. I've tried to become a little bit more 00:39:15.980 --> 00:39:17.719 nuanced in my understanding of that. I refer 00:39:17.719 --> 00:39:19.519 to Western New York and Central New York. Yeah. 00:39:20.099 --> 00:39:22.320 But all of it's upstate if you're northwest Chester. 00:39:22.679 --> 00:39:24.500 That's it. Well, and that's Matt's thing is he's 00:39:24.500 --> 00:39:26.139 like, you know, I don't care as much about the 00:39:26.139 --> 00:39:28.360 line as people say upstate. We're not upstate. 00:39:28.360 --> 00:39:30.000 This is central New York. There's western New 00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:32.139 York. There's the southern tier. And I get that. 00:39:32.219 --> 00:39:34.139 But, you know, we like to keep it simple. What's 00:39:34.139 --> 00:39:35.639 upstate? And, you know, for a long time, you 00:39:35.639 --> 00:39:37.800 know, my mom's from the Bronx originally. I spend 00:39:37.800 --> 00:39:40.340 a lot of time down in the city. And it's funny 00:39:40.340 --> 00:39:42.860 when I talk to people what they perceive as upstate. 00:39:43.059 --> 00:39:45.000 And sometimes they're like, yeah, I went upstate 00:39:45.000 --> 00:39:48.440 to the Catskills, they say, is a big one. But 00:39:48.440 --> 00:39:50.829 I'm talking, they say like, Poughkeepsie, you 00:39:50.829 --> 00:39:54.449 know. Poughkeepsie's not upstate. Anyway, Patrick 00:39:54.449 --> 00:39:58.210 Griffin of TableForce, Morgan Strategic Advisors, 00:39:58.489 --> 00:40:00.590 and the Erie Canal Museum. It has been a pleasure 00:40:00.590 --> 00:40:03.369 talking to you. Best of luck and come back anytime. 00:40:03.610 --> 00:40:05.690 Thank you, Mike. This is a real treat. I really 00:40:05.690 --> 00:40:08.250 enjoyed it. And with that, we're going to say 00:40:08.250 --> 00:40:10.369 goodbye on this Wednesday episode of Good News 00:40:10.369 --> 00:40:12.949 York, sponsored by ads on the go. We'll be back 00:40:12.949 --> 00:40:15.619 tomorrow. You can catch me on all socials at 00:40:15.619 --> 00:40:19.280 MikeBTV, like and subscribe to us at Good News 00:40:19.280 --> 00:40:22.300 York, where any podcasts are on all social media, 00:40:22.940 --> 00:40:26.260 and GNY Sports, a new episode gonna drop tomorrow. 00:40:26.699 --> 00:40:28.260 So we will see you then.