All right, welcome to Good News York episode
58. I am Mike Brindisi on this episode of Good
News York sponsored by ads on the go. Get ads
on the go dot com. Shout out to Zach Primo, the
man out there in the box truck. As you can see,
I'm flying solo today. Matt's out, I don't know,
rummaging through dumpsters looking for old electronics.
And I am here with my man Danny Tripodi behind.
I'm gonna have a chance today to sit down with
Dan Smalls of Dan Smalls Presents or DSP Shows.
I live in Ithaca, New York. Dan Smalls, the premier
promoter in that area, but also has grown so
much that he's now one of the premier promoters
all over New York State, even in Massachusetts.
We're gonna talk all about his journey to where
he's... He's gotten and and much much more about
the music business and other things as well So
stay with us when we come back dance malls DSP
shows right here on Good News York Welcome back
to good news York episode 58 brought to you by
ads on the go get ads on the go calm I'm Mike
Brindisi here with a very special guest a friend
of mine One of the biggest concert promoters
in in New York, maybe even the Northeast Dan
Smalls from DSP shows or Dan Smalls presents
Dan. Thank you so much for coming on the show
It's my pleasure to be here Always love to talk
to my brethren in the industry, as you say. I
appreciate that. You look great. Very rock star
of you to be in a hotel while you're doing your
interview. I love that. Yeah, it is family time
for sure and business time at the same time.
So thanks for making it happen this way. Yeah,
man, of course. And I mean, I think that's, you
know, being a concert promoter allows you as
busy as you always are. I do find that it does
allow you to also kind of have that work -life
balance, right? You know, you aren't really missing
any of your kids' games and things of that nature,
I assume. Yeah, I've had to earn it, for sure.
You know, as we've grown, we've added wonderful
staff, and it's really allowed me to create a
company that supports the kind of lifestyle that
I want to have, that my people want to have,
and... We've worked hard for this for sure, but
your boy's only 17 once and getting recruited
to college once, so you might as well try to
be there for every possible moment. And that's
what I'm doing. That's where we are now. We're
at a baseball tournament, but happy to make the
time between games to rap. Wow. That means a
lot, man. And yeah, there's nothing more important,
nothing better than being a dad. And I've had
a front row seat to watch you. Grow right before
my eyes, you know, I I know I think it was 2008,
you know all of a sudden Dan Smalls was on the
scene and I mean you grew from your inception
it was just rapid and You know and now I see
you know, I watched when you were Adding more
employees and moving into new spaces I remember
meeting with you when you were working out of
your your you know apartment downtown and I'm
just so happy for you I know you started in 2008.
You had come from the Catskills. I want to talk
about a little bit how this all came about. You
came from the Catskills up to Cornell, correct?
Yeah, I mean, it's a really long story that we
can do a short version of. But I came to college
in 1988, if you can believe it. came to Cornell
and didn't have a real plan. I was studying engineering
because I was good at math and science, although
high school came easy to me. And they said, go
be an engineer. But I picked Cornell because
it had other options in case I was wrong. And
on my second or third night, I heard some music
coming out of a fraternity across the street
and go over there and this band. just at a high
school called blues travelers playing. And next
thing I know, I'm hanging out with them. We made
friends. I started, you know, helping them get
more shows up this way. And through them, we
met the spin doctors and, uh, they were coming
to town and I got this reputation as the guy
to call when you want to, you know, no one knew
what a jam band was at that point. There was
still the grateful debt touring and all that
kind of stuff, but the jam band scene wasn't
really a thing. So that's kind of how it all
started. And, you know, we did a big benefit
show for the Finger Lakes Land Trust, which has
just gotten going with Blues Traveler and Spin
Doctors at the, at Bailey Hall before it was
redone and sold it out and made some money. And
it's a, it's a very funny story. I was left with
a few thousand bucks in cash and I thought I'd
be a good kid and went to the bursar's office
and tried to pay down my bills. So my parents
would be surprised. Stammerily sent me packing
with my cash saying, where'd she get this? Damn,
you know, get the, get the hell out of here.
So, so that happened. And, uh, I quickly learned
that going from a 4 .0 high school to a 1 .9
first semester, it wasn't going to work. I got
to get out of engineering, moved into business
management, marketing, and that's where it started.
And then I wound up meeting John Peterson at
the haunts, which was the club in town at the
time on green streets still. And he was, you
know, putting on the best blues and reggae shows
that had ever, you know, I hadn't seen in my
life. I was down there and one night I'd see
Buddy Guy and then Albert Collins and all those
alligator bands with the same backing band and
just another smoking guitar player in front of
him every week. And it was just life -changing
for me to go to work for him and, uh, and start
learning the business. And he let me take chances.
He believed in me when I told him the book Pearl
Jam or whenever on a Monday night for 200 bucks
or 300 bucks or we paid him. It was a great,
it was a great time, you know, um, uh, the industry
was, was wide open, I think, you know, music
was changing and, and I was just really, really
lucky to work with him at that point. And, um,
the big thing fame, the summer of my sophomore
junior year, I can't remember which, and I saw
they were doing a music festival with all these
bands and I should back up and say, you know,
while I was working at The Hot Fish came and
the first time they played, three people came
to see them. You know, Trey called us like, we're
killing it in Vermont and, and we got to come
down for three nights like we do here. And they
came and there was three people and the next
night there was eight people. And I think we
put a local band on and they did like 40 or something.
So, you know, they were growing at the same time.
It was really quite entertaining to watch. And
some of my best friends in the biz to this day,
you know, so. That happened, but that summer
came along and I saw they were doing a music
festival down in Parksville, New York of all
places. It was where Route 17 had a stoplight.
Yeah. You know, it's no longer there, but right
off that stoplight, two miles was this place
called Arrowhead Ranch. And I found out about
it. I drove down there, met with the guy in charge,
talked my way into a job. Turned out that his
partner was David Graham and all of his friends.
from NYU and David's dad was Bill Graham, the
famous rock and presario concert promoter, you
know, Fillmore East, Fillmore West, whatever,
whatever. So I'm down there working for the summer.
And, uh, one of the first days, uh, the sheriff
comes to try to shut the whole thing down. And,
uh, I know the guy since I'm four years old,
Joe, how are his sheriff jokes? And Bill's watching
the whole thing that weekend, you know, We gained
thumbs to an end and I should back up and say,
those guys were wonderful, but they were older
than me and they were doing more drugs than I
would do. And so Bill takes the dinner and he
says, Cornell, come here. And he takes me to
the bar. He's like, my kids are all fuck -ups.
I want you to come work for me when you graduate.
And I'm like, oh my God. Okay. Okay. And crazy,
right? I mean, small. The irony is he, when he
escaped Germany and came over on a boat was in
Brooklyn. He would come up and spend summers
in the Capskills right near where I grew up,
near Monticello. And he worked at the Concord
Hotel. So we shared this connection of where
we were from. So I came back to college thinking
my life was set and all my friends are interviewing
for jobs and I'm laughing in their face. And
Bill gets in a helicopter about a month before
I graduated Cornell and crashed on the way to
a Siri Lewis show in San Francisco and passed
away tragically. And that was it for my job up
there. It was a restart, let's just put it that
way. So I stayed in Ithaca for another year or
two, year and a half, helped with the haunt.
And then because of my connection with Spin Doctors
and Blues Traveler, I got offered a job in New
York at Columbia Epic Records. And it was A &R.
It was kind of cool. But to me, once I got there,
it was the era of just shipping tons of records
and bean counting. Way more corporate than I
really felt was my style. The next phase was
the, I like to call it the goodwill hunting phase.
I met a, I met a girl, had to see about a girl
who went to Boston and talked my way into another
job. And it's funny how you just meet people
and that's your thing. And through the guys that
I worked with in this job, booking a college
band called angry salad of all things. You wouldn't
believe they had, you know, they eventually got
signed and had a decent hit or whatever in the,
in that era. Through that, I met a guy named
Dave Whirlen, who was a promoter and he had a
ton of fish history as well, his company was
called Great Northeast. And he and I, I worked
with him when we presented the first five or
six of fish's camping festivals for the weekend,
starting in Clipper ball, great lemon wheel.
Got very, very lucky to be a part of those. They
were just life -changing events. You know, there
were no festivals in the U S in 1996. And so
that experience was like, You can come back and
question any of this, but I'm going to get through
to Ithaca. No, keep going, man. This is great.
So that happened and we worked together and it
was great. But then the industry roll -up happened
right around 1999 when SFX, Bob Sillerman bought
Delsner Slater, and he bought Bill Graham presents
and he bought the, you know, the guys in Colorado
and Chicago and everyone, he rolled it up to
clear STFx, which became clear channel, which
is now live nation. Right. So that was the beginning
of the consolidation of the music industry and
independent promoters like, you know, great artists.
We didn't just do the fish festivals. We did
about, I don't know, 200 or so shows a year at
the middle East and Boston, but we were more
like the guys who booked Portland, Maine. you
know, Portsmouth, New Hampshire, and Burlington,
Vermont. We were the surrounding cities with
the same act. So we did a lot of shows that way,
but the roll -up left independent promoters out
in the cold for the most part. We were nervous.
Agents were afraid of what Live Nation was going
to become. And it was a really good time to take
a break. So that's when I wound up back in the
Catskills to help get Bethel Woods started. And
at the same time I had grown up there, we helped
get Bethel Woods, the guy that bought the Woodstock
site, built this beautiful place. And around
the same time my dad was ill and I helped run
his business once Bethel Woods was up and running
and thought I could get out of the music biz.
I thought it was it for me and helped him with
that, helped him sell it. And in a similar goodwill
hunting where I visited Ithaca and met my wife.
on that one of those trips. So we sold the biz
and I moved up there without a prayer of what
I was gonna do next. Thought I was done with
music. Like you said, right around 2005, six,
the state theater was in peril. It was really
close to closing. They had brought in an executive
director who really tried to make it into like
a cultural Mecca, like doing the kind of things
Cornell could do with a $10 ticket with a $60
ticket. It ran the debt through the roof in one
year, you know? So I met the executive director
of Historic Ithaca and said, I can fix this,
I think. Give me a shot. And we went in and it
was a mess and the debt was huge. I quickly saw
they were not able to escrow money to cover bills
and pay. It was a really hard time. So I met
some local folks, business people. We met, we
met with the city. We met with all kinds of things.
We, we, we came up with a very creative deal
with the IURA helping and stuff too. The Clinton
house was part of it and it spun Historic Ithaca
into their own thing and State Theater of Ithaca,
Inc. into its own thing. And we. took it over
as a new not -for -profit running just the theater
and for a year and a half I did my job booking
it and Doug Levine's job of running it and I
realized very quickly I could not do both so
I was the guy that said hey let's give Doug a
shot you know because the way buildings like
that make sense is you start by raising tons
of sponsorship and then you get good at raising
funds to do bigger projects and Doug was working
at the Chamber of Commerce as the membership
guy I'm like he knows everybody he'll be able
to bring in enough money It felt like a real
symbiotic thing and it's taken a long time to
become that, but now to bring it full circle,
it's become that for sure in Ithaca. But in the
years since 2007, when I formed the SP till now,
you know, I've grown, like you said, tremendously.
It's been awesome. I started by growing too fast
and then pulled back and it was just me. And
then I wound up having a friend who was sort
of like the me of Western Massachusetts working
for. a guy he didn't like. His name was John
Sanders. And after several years of trying to
convince him, John finally said, I can't work
for this guy anymore. I'm in. Let's do it. And
I gave him a very creative way to become a part
of the company. And we worked that out together.
And now we're eight people and 69 shows in 2008,
812 shows last year. My God. I remember when
you and John teamed up and I remember kind of
the, from my point of view, the explosion. of
DSP shows from there. Not that it wasn't, you
know, you were doing just fine before that, but
that's when it went to the next tier for sure.
Yeah, we had opportunities in Massachusetts that
came with him. And the minute he left working
for someone that the industry as a whole had,
you know, I don't talk bad about folks, but they
didn't enjoy working with him the way they enjoy
working with John and I. Like I've always been
a promoter who will go the extra mile. I'd rather
put more catering in your room and spend a few
extra dollars to have a better relationship.
I mean, I know these touring acts live on a bus
and they sleep while they're driving and they
come into these dingy basements and that's their
house. Yeah. So why not try to make it a little
better for them? Absolutely. And that's that's
been our mentality. And I think our growth has
happened because we treated people better. And
they've said, hey, when we go to the Northeast,
we want to play for these guys. Yeah. And that's
that's the mentality. You treat people better
and you'll you'll let money follow. Don't let
be a goal. You know, you know what? You're so
right, because I tell people all the time that
any success I've had in my life is by building
relationships. And a lot of those were relationships
that were built because they were just relationships
and ended up coming full circle later on where
it ended up helping me in business. But they
were meant as just relationships to begin with.
And you made so many relationships along the
way. And it's been so key for you. And I knew
that kind of your mantra when you had started
out was that you wanted to go the extra mile
to do what other promoters weren't doing, which
was really being for the artist. And as someone,
you know, I had my band and you and I have worked
together. I can attest that you always took care
of of me and my band and any artists that that
I know that that has worked with you. So it's
I mean. It's, it's how it works. I mean, look,
I would not have been able to save the state
theater if I didn't know agents from years ago.
And those couple of years that I took away, they
all moved up, you know, when I called them like,
holy shit, Dan, where have you been? What have
you been doing? And we have that great conversation.
I'm like, Hey, I got this really righteous thing.
I've saved this awesome building. And I still
remember 2008 when, when I got Lyle to come with
John Hyatt and Lyle Lovitz on stage. And he gave
this whole speech about how saving buildings
like this is something that should be done. There's
too many that are 7 -elevens. And there I was
in the back of the thing with the tear coming
down in my eye. Right on, dude. Thank you for
noticing, because it's a really cool thing. Yeah,
man. What a journey. You're right. What a journey.
I moved to Ithaca from the Mohawk Valley in 05,
actually, right around the same time. And at
the time... Long story short I I knew I needed
to get out of there. I couldn't afford to live
in New York or LA I knew I needed to be somewhere
where there was some sort of creative scene in
music and comedy and you know a buddy of mine
lived in Ithaca and said you got to come here
like just live here for a couple years and go
to the city it's so Cultured, you know, there's
a ton of culture. There's a huge music scene
and I was pleasantly surprised to know that this
person was so right, and you're responsible for
a lot of that, I know that now, but before you,
you know, on your way to Ithaca, from your perspective,
was Ithaca known that way for you before you
got there? It wasn't when I was here. It was
when I was there in college, for sure. I mean,
John had built that and people before him at
the North 40 and places like that where the,
you know, Buffalo Longo and bands like then Orleans
were playing around town in the seventies and
stuff. So it had a great scene that the Rongo,
you know, places. Amazing that people would drive
those 10 miles and drink all night and then drive
back to college. You know, it's just. Different
times for sure. Um, so, and the, and the reputation,
like I give John Peterson a lot of credit and
he and I are friends to this day. He has a house
now up in near Shell, Drake up that way. And
then summers comes up and visits and, uh, and
we're still friends, but he, he, he taught me
the biz. He let me lose money and, and, and,
you know, drain my bank account and live off
the sack of potatoes from the farmer's market
for a couple of weeks. But he taught me a lot
about the biz. I grew up in a musical family
for sure. My dad, no one played, but they listened
to a lot of great music. My dad was playing Mississippi
John Heard and was friends with Arlo Guthrie
for a minute back in the 60s in the village and
stuff. So it was kind of cool to bring them back
together. But anyway, long story short, it was
just, yeah, it's relationship -based. Like you
said, that's where this whole thing started.
And I think that's how you continue to get it.
Ithaca is a special place. I tell people that
all the time and You're talking about John and
how he got you started, you know living in Ithaca
I heard all those stories about these magical
nights at the haunt I actually remember being
at a reggae night somewhere and the band actually
sang a song I don't know if they wrote it or
they were covering it about a night where a band
came and played in Ithaca that the song is about
that night And, you know, there's the story of
obviously John Popper and Blues Traveller playing
there. And now, is this true? I heard Pearl Jam
had played there. This was right before they
broke out. And they played on like a Tuesday
night and there was barely anybody there. It
was a Monday night, actually. Don Mueller called
us and Don was a huge agent at the time. They
were opening for the Chili Peppers and they had
an off night. And they needed a few hundred bucks
to cover gas. And, you know, their sound check
was, you know, messy and whatever. And then,
and then the show started and it was just awesome.
It was huge. And the guys hang his, I mean, they
were so poor at the time that Eddie's pants were
being held up with duct tape tied in a knot.
You know what I mean? It was that bad. And it
was cool. And I was like, they started playing
and I was like, Whoa, stop. Let me call everyone
I know. Well, we want them having like I think
50 people maybe when they played and it was legendary
It was so loud and it's so cool and those dudes
were great And then we sat at the bar and J Jager
Meister shots for you know, yeah, it was way
too late You know, I'm so envious of you Yeah,
I'm so envious you in that way because I always
said one thing I can't say I've done is you know,
I meet so many people that go Dude, I saw you
know Pearl Jam on a Monday night before they
were big or I saw John Mayer in Boston before
he blew up That's never happened to me, and I'm
assuming you you've probably experienced that
quite a bit especially back then people got to
remember in the early 90s That the whole grunge
invasion the reason you were calling all your
buddies was probably because this was a sound
that wasn't Really popular at the time like what
the fuck is this and I got to get people down
here So you probably experienced that quite a
bit. I'm assuming in the 90s especially There
were so many bands that played there that had
no business playing there, you know, but then
it was the second wave of it that was really
kind of cool too. We became established as a
place like, you know, Throwing Muses and Belly
with Tanya Donnelly came through and Soul Asylum
came through and you know, just, it was that
kind of band that was touring and that we were,
they probably were doing between five and 700,
maybe a thousand in New York City, but that was
worth 350 upstate, you know, and that's. how
it worked. And I knew we were centrally located
between Toronto and Buffalo and New York, Philly
and Boston. We were right in the middle. So if
you get an off night, I'm your guy. And look,
the same thing happened with reinvigorating the
state. I called Frank Riley at High Road and
I called CIA and William Morrison. I'm like,
I'll be your Monday night guy. You know, you
need that villain. I promise you this town is
starved and we will do okay. It might not last
forever, but let's start that way. And I gave
him way more money than I had to my name to do,
you know, three girls and their buddy, which
was Emmy Lou Harris, Sean Colvin. Patty Griffin
and Buddy Miller. And we did that on a Monday
night and sold it out. And I called John Prine's
agent and I, you know, people I'd worked with
for years and years and years and said, come
on your Monday. Like, John doesn't work on Mondays.
Like, okay, the first one time you want to do
a Wednesday before your Friday, Saturday, I'll
be your guy for that, you know. So, I don't know,
I took a lot of risk early on when I started
the company. I did. I didn't have the money to
liquid, you know, to do it. But I got very lucky.
I booked John and I booked the three girls and
I booked, you know, even bands like Stars who
were huge at the time in the indie scene. I went
up to Cornell and got them the partner with me
and we gave a discount to kids. Like I was really
creative in how I got going in the early days
and it worked out. But the town was also star
for music. Like you said, it was huge in the
70s, 80s, 90s. And there was a little bit of
a downpouring where the state theater went through
some issues. you know, the guys from Syracuse
weren't coming down anymore or doing one or two
shows a year. And I'm like, that's not enough.
You know, I, I, so I, you know, I might've upset
a few folks by getting started, but it's not
like I was trying to take away someone's business.
It was, okay, I'm going to save this building
and then I'm going to be aggressive. uh, at saying
Ithaca is a better place to play than some other
markets for a while. And that's how we proved
it. And that's how the relationships got it off
the ground. And, you know, I, I, we do shows
in Syracuse and Rochester and Buffalo, wherever
we book rooms there now, but, you know, this
always home, it's close to home. I spent many
a night suffering, trying to get that building
off the ground again. And I think, like you said,
it was relationship based, but it was also a
town that had once been strong. Tons of musicians
live there and still do, but it took a while
to sort of resurrect that. And I'm glad that
it's there again. I think there's watching bands
like X Ambassadors come along and pop out a bit.
That was all testament to the work we did in
2002, three, four, five to save this building
and have them have that success. Yeah, man, absolutely.
And from my point of view, again, what you've
done for the scene in Ithaca and, you know, now
the whole region and then some. I'm so appreciative.
And, you know, the business has changed so much.
But also, you know, I remember going to the first,
you know, my first couple of state theater shows.
And like you said, it was a Monday or Tuesday.
And I had friends that would be like, why are
they doing shows on Monday or Tuesday? And I
had to explain, you got to understand, they do
the big markets on the weekends. But I've noticed,
man, especially since the pandemic, correct me
if I'm wrong, dude, I've been seeing I've been
seeing Friday night, Saturday night shows, big,
big acts. And I saw Nate Barghazi. You think
that's a product of the name you've built and
the trust that you've built that now they're
saying, hey, because the market hasn't really
changed. It's still the same size. How are you
able to now get them on these hotter nights?
Yeah, I think that's it's helped. I mean, thank
you for saying that, you know, I mean, I try
to I try to live a humble life for sure, but
we worked hard to establish it. And look, we're
only as good as our results. If people weren't
coming to the shows, they'd find other markets.
There's, you know, in secondary slash tertiary
markets, which I think it might be, you know,
there's seven offers for every day. So you have
to, you know, before an agent to sit through
and You know, I've developed those relationships
with agents, but also managers of these acts
and they know, you know, like we're sold out
with the indigo girls early on. I'm not just
going to get them what's on the rider. I'm going
to call the manager in Atlanta and say, Hey,
what are they into right now? Like, Oh, Amy's
reading about civil war generals and boom, I'm
going to run over and buy a book on some crazy
war general. Like the little things that you,
when Lyle Lovett first came, Shinerbach wasn't
sold in New York. I called my friend in Austin
and said, send me a 12 pack please. and, you
know, wrap it really well. And he showed up and
that was in his dressing room. And he's like,
Smalls, you son of a bitch. Because we've known
each other forever. Like I've known him since
I did my shows with him in Portland and Burlington
and wherever else we did. So it's, it's the little,
little things that people remember. Yeah, most
guys are too caught up in making the almighty
dollar to really focus on that and I think that's
what we've done differently a hundred percent
and those are two great examples of just going
the extra mile and like you said when you were
starting you you you were finding creative ways
to To get artists there, you know and thinking
outside the box and I know personally and you
know, obviously how much the industry has changed
in the last 10, 15 years, even five years. So
I'm going to assume, have you had to get a lot
more creative these days with Axe because of
the way the kind of the business models changed?
Yeah, I mean, look, Live Nation, AEG, they're
national multinational corporations, right? And
they used to just buy national, they'd buy the
whole tour and stick it in amphitheaters. Then
they'd buy the whole tour and stick it in, you
know, 4 ,000 seat theaters. Now they're buying
tours sometimes that fit in the state theater,
you know? Nate Bargatti, for example, does all
his shows with Outback Presents, but I know those
guys. And we called Outback and said, hey, Nate's
got to play the state. Let's do it. So I'd rather
take half of something than 100 % of nothing.
So I go out and I've got good relationships with
those companies. I mean, it's not like Live Nation
hasn't made an offer yet. They like to buy people
up. And we've been very lucky to be, you know,
We don't really report to Polestar much anymore,
but when we did and they told us how many on
their yearly ticket sales, we were ranked in
the top 40 independent promoters in the world.
The last time they did that in the fucking world.
And I look, I sit in my house. And I'm like,
what? It's the first time we were ranked 99,
I think, and it just kept moving up and was,
it was insane. Like, cause we, we just do so
much volume based on ticket. It's not dollars.
It's ticket sales, right? We move a lot of tickets
at the lower level of stuff. So, you know, working
with those companies will drive more business
into a route like that. We have comedy, like
a lot of the comedy tours are bought by the entire
thing. Like we partner with AEG. We partner with
Live Nation. We partner with any of them, you
know, it's, and, and it's a great way to put
more in the room. It's also a great way to not
lose act you have history with, you know, we
used to do all the Ray LaMontagne shows around
here last number of tours have been. with Live
Nation. So every once in a while we can buy one
out, but sometimes we get a little piece of one
here and there. And same thing with Bob Dylan,
you know, like they he does most of his stuff
with AEG, but his manager Kramer loves us, and
he always finds two or three markets to include
us in. You know, it's just, it's the little things
like that. And that, like you said, that comes
from relationships and reputation, but also being
willing to work with, you know, the parameters
that have changed over these years, because look,
I say this a lot, and it's changed over the years,
because my kid gets older and older, but Their
stockholders are the Saudi Princes and Wall Street,
and mine is 17 years old, went two for three
today. There you go! Listen, and Live Nation's
not buying Scheinerbach and Civil War novels
for their artists either, let's be honest. No,
that's amazing, man, and you know, you and I
kind of talked, and we'll talk about your son
in a second, I want to talk about that, but you
and I have kind of talked off air before about,
there's this kind of this myth with concert promoters,
I think, where... There's a couple things. One,
they're always jerks, right? And I think a part
of that is because, yeah, you're trying to talk
to them when they're in the middle of their livelihood.
And then number two, they've got such an easy
job. You know, they book bands, they get to enjoy
shows. I would love for you to dispel both those
rumors because I know that's not true. Well,
I mean look some people might think I'm a jerk
but I'm being a jerk to respect the the rules
of the industry I don't I don't get to pick the
opening acts for every show I know most most
bands that are touring at the level that play
the state that manager manages someone else and
they're putting their act on that bill or a favor
to someone else and you know local musicians
often think I'm a bad guy for that. I mean, look,
John Peterson was not loved. He ran the hawks.
He is now, he's respected and everybody puts
him up on the wall. I'm that now. I'm probably
not loved. And I'm okay with that because I look
in the mirror every night and I love the person
I see because I know how I do business. I know
how I treat people. And I could give a shit what
anyone thinks about me. I know what I'm doing
to make this industry. I know the risks that
I take. on a daily basis. And sometimes I book
shows I know we're gonna lose just to have volume
at the state. I used to get upset when I lost
100 bucks a show. Then I get upset when I lost
1000 bucks a show. There have been shows where
we've lost 10 ,000 bucks. Now, I know that I
have to look at the whole year. When you do 12
or 15 million dollars in business in a year,
you're gonna have some really ugly nights. And
if you look at them on a one -off basis, it sucks.
But if you look at it like, okay, I did this
show with this guy that I love, and I've worked
with before, and nobody came this time, and we
lost $60 ,000. I mean, it's a huge amount of
money, but that's when the act, because they
respect you, will give you most of that back.
You don't even have to ask. They don't want to
see you get hurt because they want to work with
you, right? So look, I could worry about what
they think, or I could just keep trying to do
the right thing. And it was funny, I was at a
party a couple of weeks ago. And I hadn't seen
Willie B, Brian Wilson in a long time. And he
is an industry guy. He's a drummer. He's amazing.
He's toured with all kinds of Jamie Liddell and
all kinds of national tourists. And he's the
one guy who gets it because he's been out there
doing it. You know what I mean? He's been on
the road. He knows how shitty it can be. He knows
how promoters can have a hard time. And I love
talking to that dude because it's... He sees
the picture, you know, and I don't get to share
that. And I get to share that with you. Cause
you know, we can, we can, you've been around
that kind of stuff, but you know, I don't have
to defend what we do or who we do. I gamble for
your enjoyment. That's my job. I gamble for everyone
else's enjoyment. And I'm, I'm pretty good at
it because I've been doing it for 38 years. And
I like the people that I work with and I like
the, you know, there's nothing better than standing
in the wings, watching the act come on and the
fans connect. and whether I've made money or
lost, where there's 10 tickets, 100, 1000, 10
,000, that moment happens at every show. Somebody's
really psyched to be there. And the fact that
I can do that, it's really cool. And the fact
that you still get enjoyment out of that is even
bigger, I think, because this business can really
kind of ruin things for you sometimes. I want
to be clear, by the way. I wasn't saying that
people think you're an asshole. I meant, like,
promoters. I hope you know that. I meant promoters
across the board. No, in general, you're right,
though, because a lot of them, you know, are...
You look at the fees on tickets in most places,
and you look at that stuff, and you just think
that guys are trying to squeeze it out of you,
you know? You go to the... amphitheater and the
beer's 18 bucks. I mean, fuck that. You know,
you come to Ohma Gang or Beacon Skip and we're
selling you a $8, $9, 16 ounce beer. You know,
that's the going rate in a bar. You know, it's
like, come on. How ridiculous can you get? How
can you rip people off anymore? Like I said,
I gotta like the guy I see in the mirror every
night. I love that. Hopefully that dispels part
one. I'm trying to remember the other part. Ah,
don't worry about it. You dispelled it all. Do
you think I wanted to I wanted to answer that
part. Oh, go ahead. Go ahead. Yeah, what was
the second part? I wish I remember no It was
just that like, uh, you know putting on a concert
It's all fun and games like you just booked the
band then you sit back and watch the show I mean
look backstage is a dingy hole most of the time.
Let's be honest. The bands are not back there
It's not almost famous. There's no you know groupies.
No, there's no sex drugs and rock and roll. It's
just a bunch of guys saying what's the words
to this song so i don't fuck it up on stage you
know no it's it's it's rarely like that but i
mean look the the era has changed touring is
where everyone makes their most money they have
these great buses it's their home it's way more
comfortable you know i i get it you know but
i can't tell you how many times people ask hey
can i meet the band till i get a backstage pass
i'm like i almost want to give you a backstage
pass you come back and be like this sucks yeah
this isn't fun where's the party you're like
it's not and shit at shows. I'm sitting in some
dingy, musty room with a computer doing my work
for the day. And if somebody walks by, it's on
its way to the stage. I don't seek it out. I've
learned a long time ago, the most important thing
you can do is turn the fan off on day, the fan
inside of you, because they're the same people.
And maybe it's because I grew up with a dad who
was a plumbing, heating, and air conditioning
contractor, right? That guy's shit smells just
as bad as yours. He used to say, right? And like,
if you just treat people, they're people. And
that's why I've had these relationships with
them, you know? And that sticks in my head. I
never really say it out loud. I'm not sure I
should have. Oh, that's brilliant. It's funny.
It's funny. You know, they're who they are. And
you just treat them with respect. And one of
my best moments, I wanted to work with Ray Davies
from The Kinks forever and ever and ever. And
I finally got a show with him and I stay away
from backstage. I don't even bring it. And his
wife comes up and says, who's the promoter after
the show? Right had such a good day. He wants
to have a drink with the promoter. Who is it?
I'm like, well, that's me. Let's go You know,
yeah super happy to get invited. Yeah back that
you know, I don't expect it I don't you know,
but yeah, is it cool to have friends who are
touring musicians? Sure, but they're people to
me, you know, they are who they are and and I'm
lucky I'm very lucky but some of them there's
nothing worse than meeting someone whose music
you love and then having that they're having
a bad day Yeah, and it can change your whole
opinion of them, you know, so I I don't Try to
stay away from it so I can keep this this image
that that got me excited about this business
I'm still excited about it this many years later,
you know, and I love that man It's infectious
and you know, you got me thinking because I was
gonna ask you, you know at your level Do you
still because what you got me thinking about
is here. I am thinking man Got to talk to him
about how it must be a struggle now with how
the industry's changed and I'm realizing actually
it's a struggle for for labels and artists themselves
But the touring market is probably hotter than
ever because that's how you make the money now
I guess a would you agree with that and then
be at your level as successful as you are Do
you still have those nights where you kind of
take a maybe not take a bath? But you're like
yes was this was not a good show Oh, yeah, they
happen all the time. I mean, I had one in the
state theater this spring that was well into
the five figures and it hurt. You know, it was
not something we expected. But no, that is your
dad on. That's how the industry is right now.
And like I said, I have to look at the big picture.
You can't look at, you know, my dad taught me
a lot of things in life. And one was you can't
look at one job that he bid and lost on. You
look at the whole year, you know, and you got
to treat the losses like the wins. Like, even
though we lost a ton of money on that show, I
didn't cut the catering rider. I didn't ask them
for a reduction. I didn't try to cut sound and
lights. I said, we're going to put on a professional
kickass show here. And so be it, you know, and
that's how it goes. Sometimes you win, sometimes
you lose. And luckily we're right 85 % of the
time. And most of the losses are expected at
the lower club level where you're building an
act, you know, there's nothing makes me happier
than like, you know, the first time I worked
with the Ava brothers, you know, after I saw
them at grassroots on the first. show, wherever
they came to the state and three or 400 people
came and then 600 people came and then 800 people
came. Then they wrote I Am Loving You and all
the grizzled hippies out by the bus turned into
12 year old girls. And then they sold out the
state theater. It's just one thing led to another.
And now we do 4 ,000 a night for two nights at
Beacon Skip or Omegang every couple of summers.
Watching good people have success like that has
been really awesome. And to bring it, not to
just bring it around to baseball, but like they're
such nice dudes that when we did the last shows
at Omegang, Um, they know my boy's a shortstop
and, and the Cal Ripken foundation was in town
and came backstage with these signed Cal jerseys
and gave them to Scott and Seth. And the next
morning, uh, you know, Wiley had, we had missed
his first travel game that, that weekend because
we were stretched so thin as a company. And Scott
comes back and says, give this to your shortstop.
I'm not an Orioles fan. And you know, like those
moments, you know, just happen sporadically out
of the blue because of the relationships you
build. I want to keep coming back to that because
that's what this is about. Most people can think
that, okay, I'm, I'm running a theater now. I
can go book all the bands in the world. Of course
you can. You could be the best, but you could
book all the bands in the world you want, but
you will pay more than me. You don't know what
you're supposed to pay. Right? So anybody can
book it, but agents are lovely, but they also
can be agents, you know? The same way you say
promoters have a bad rep. Some agents are out
there to make the most for their client. And
if you're not smart enough to know the difference,
you're gonna get hurt in this case, you know?
Well, I wanna talk about your son and some other
stuff before I let you go. I gotta ask you one
hacky question. I have to do it. I didn't want
to, but I have to. I have to. Is there, at this
level, at this stage of the game... Can you think
of like a holy shit moment, like your favorite
show or like a moment you were blown away or
like, this is insane. Because you see so many.
It's hard. I think one of my proudest moments,
I'm only thinking of it because I see the hat
in the screen, but pulling off Cayuga Sound with
X Ambassadors was a huge thing for us. Doing
that festival in Stewart Park with The Roots
and all those great bands was great, but it wasn't
just that it was great. It was that they decided
to make no money and so did we. Um, and we were
left with like 60, some thousand dollars at the
end and we divided it among five children's charities
in Ithaca that work with the arts and stuff like
that. We gave every dime away and most festivals
in year one lose a ton of money. We were able
to raise enough to, to help Southside Community
Center and you know. youth farm project and things
like that that were just awesome and I brought
Wiley with me to hand those checks off and watch
people like lose their mind when they got a thousand
bucks they didn't expect you know I have goosebumps
very cool you know I live you know I live there
so I'm so appreciative of what you do for not
only the scene as an artist you know as a performer
myself I appreciate what you do but as a fan
and as a as a citizen of the community Just everything
that you do for the community, including obviously
the shows, but the money that you put back into
the community. It's so appreciated, man. I mean,
thank you for noticing, because a lot of people
don't. I don't think people do as much. There
was a really nice little run a couple years ago
where we won the... couple of words that you'd
ever think about, like the downtown Ithaca gave
us the entrepreneur of the year. And then the
chamber did that for me the next year. It was
really cool. The videos they shot were really
awesome. And it's funny because when you see
yourself doing interviews, you don't realize
that you say the same thing over and over again.
But that chamber video was really cool because
my feelings about how I run the company and how
we run the company, I should say, because it's
not just me anymore, is they come across and
it's wholesome and it's heartfelt than it's real.
And it's like it's different than when money
is your motivator. You just you want to put on
great shows and take really good care of the
people who pay to see the acts and come to you
know. It's it's it's how it works. It's how it
grows. So I'm very thankful. I love the people
that work for us There's eight of us now They're
all in Western Mass doing a festival right now
and a couple of Chris Mazer and a few other people
are Boy prepared for Warren's eaters sold out
at beak tomorrow night in Waxahachee Saturday
So and here I am in you know Jersey plumbing
in New Jersey at Diamond Nation. Yeah, let's
talk about that So you're down there we shout
out to Chris Mazer by the way. I love him. God.
I love you But anyway, you're down there with
your son who is playing college ball, high school
ball, and he's looking to go to college, correct?
Correct. Being recruited as we speak. It's amazing.
He plays shortstop? He does. He does. We're down
for... This is a really big... Scouting thing
that a couple hundred colleges there today watching
it's a really cool complex with fields like in
four different directions and this building in
the middle with a Platform and he just watched
the coaches sort of walking around and sharing
out all the games It was really cool. Is he does
he have any sort of? Does he have his sights
set on a specific handful of colleges? He wants
to go to or is he just like hey what whoever
will take me? It's a bit of both. I think we're
in the middle of it right now and just learning.
I mean, it's, it's, it's, I, you see the smile
on my face. Yes, I do. Proud dad. It's really
fun. Yeah. It's, it's great. And I'm just, like
I said, I'm super thankful for the people that
work, you know, with us to pull off these shows
that I, you know, could say to them this year,
our Christmas and holiday parties that, you know,
I might be a little sparse this spring, but it's,
you know, I got one kid and this is the time
that I'm going to be with them. So, and, and
They're pulling off a wonderful festival in Greenfield,
Mass, the Green River Fest this weekend, and
two sold out shows at Beacon Skiff, and hopefully
I'll be back in time for Saturday with Waxahachie,
but really excited that it can keep going. When
it was me and a laptop years ago, I never saw
this day coming, but I'm really happy that we've
gotten here. Dude, it's been amazing to watch
it happen, and yeah, sure, some of it is, we
all have luck, but I mean, I would say 99 % of
your success has been your hard work, dude. You've
been grinding since the day I heard of you and
met you, and it's paying off, and I love seeing
good people succeed, and, you know, just keep
doing it. Do you have, I mean, at this point,
is there someone left that you're like, this
is the dream artist? Oh, yeah, yeah. Who you
got? There's tons of them. There's tons of them.
I mean... It's the ones who choose when and where
they play, right? Neil Young decides when he
plays. Would I love to do a Neil Young show?
Sure. Would I love for Eddie Vedder to say, I'd
love to come back to Ithaca? Sure. Would I love
for Tom Waits to play a show? Sure. There's millions
of those, but Chris Mazur, as you mentioned,
does our design work. And he did this ad a couple
of years ago where... I'm never really one for
like microphones or like, you know, guitars or
any of that kind of stuff. It's kind of cheesy
if you use that, but it was a really simple thing.
This little tiny microphone and in the background
is all the acts we've worked with in tiny little
letters. And I can just stare at it and be like,
oh my God, I don't even remember. And it's mind
blowing to me just how many people we've worked
with over the last whatever years, like walking
in the state theater box office and seeing all
those posters of the people we booked. It's a
really humbling experience and, and you can't,
you know, you're, you're as a promoter, you're
living in the future so much. Like I, you could
ask me who's playing next weekend and I'm going
to have to think. Right. If you tell me what
I'm working on for January, February, March,
that's where I am right now. Right. The next
summer, you know, we're, we're always ahead and
people ask what's coming up. What are you excited
about? I'm like, I can't tell you because I haven't
booked it yet. You know, like that's where my
head is working. Like how do I steer the ship?
You know, so it's a tricky thing in that way
too. Like you have to have these, I mean, we're
working on a very cool, lots of really cool stuff
right now and I'm really excited about it. Yeah,
man. But you know, I'm excited for the weekend,
rest of the summer for, you know, all the stuff
at Beacon Skip. It's a great relationship just
south of Syracuse there, wonderful location.
4 ,000 cap beautiful venue where people can come
with families and have a good day, you know So
we're excited for we got country shows Primus.
Yeah, you got you what else you got got it, right?
I wrote some down you've got I was gonna say
before we go I want you to hit up the plugs of
some there's so many father John Misty Kurt Weill
Graham Nash Primus Rainbow Kitten Surprise Dark
Star Orchestra Lake Street Dive Cowboy Junkies
Roseanne Cash ex -ambassadors modest mouse and
that's just a sum that I wrote down. Anything
you want to plug? That's all over too. Those
are all over the place. Some of those are in
Rochester and Buffalo and what else. I mean,
look, I just say, check the website. We're really,
you know, we send an email once a week. Once
a week on Wednesdays. We don't harass you with
stuff unless you ask to be. Once a week and then
you get passwords. You can buy tickets early
when you're on our list. And, you know, there's
lots of good reasons for it. We try to keep it
friendly and fun. And that's the goal, you know,
I think that. Our growth, like I said, has been
beyond my wildest dreams, but I'm really having
fun with it and I don't see it, you know, I don't
see it changing. I think we're, we're, we're
just going to keep developing these relationships.
You know, like seeing bands like Waxahachie grow
from club shows to selling 4 ,000 tickets in
advance is pretty awesome. And it feels like
a band we're going to work with for a long time
and in a lot of other places. Same thing with,
you know, Mount Joy watching them. blow up has
been really fun. They're headlining the festival
with Courtney Barnett and Waxahatchee. So a lot
of stuff that we're doing at the Fest also is
playing, you know, around. So it's, it's just
how our growth, I mean, I look back, it was like,
I'd get a call from an Asian and be like, give
me the avails for Ithaca for, you know, I don't
know, not to go back to Lyle, but Lyle in May
1st to 5th. And now it's like, Lyle's coming
to the Northeast in March. Where do you want
to do it? You know, so we had Ithaca, Buffalo,
you know, and across the Western mass and wherever.
So you send six or seven offers and maybe you
get four or five of them. And it's just, that's
how the growth happens. Just your little runs
of dates. So, yeah, I don't know, man. It's,
uh, it's, it's, it's good to have these conversations
because you and I met at a different time. And
we've certainly found ways to, you know, have
you open shows with your band, with your comedy,
wherever, you know, I think. And you've worked
hard, you know, and to finish dispelling that
myth, it's like, we want to give those opportunities
on every show that we possibly can. But who's
going to get them? Who's going to get them? They're
the people who work hard, who bring a professional
game. And you know, granted, we're putting you
on the bill sometimes because we need to sell
a few more tickets to not get hurt. It's the
name of the game. Well, you're going to work
hard, right? I mean, there's no sense just showing
up saying, oh, it's a dance ball show. I don't
have to work. No, we put you on that show because
if you help me sell another 50 tickets, I'll
lose two or three hundred dollars less than the
seven hundred. I'm going to lose. And I can't
tell you, like I said. Booking those shows that
you know we're going to lose are part of the
game and you have to be willing to do that because
you never know when it that was going to be the
one that sticks to the wall. Right. So that's
where the local relationships come in as well.
And I, you know, I wish we had a little bit better
relationship and with some of the ethical folk,
but they all grow up and they'll figure it out.
Maybe someday I'll be the, the John Peterson
that he is. You will, you will. And you'll have
your own place though, man. You, you've, uh,
You may have, you know, been influenced by John
and all that, but you've done things your way
and you've made a name for yourself. Oh yeah,
he says that. I'm so grateful that you're in
the area. I do have to ask you one last thing,
and that is, as I was thinking about this before
the interview today, I'm like, shit. You don't
ever plan on going, I'm going to uproot and move
this whole thing across. We need you in Ithaca,
man. You're not going anywhere, are you? No,
it's, it's, it's very territorial. That's a really
good question, you know, cause the industry is
very territorial. I'm not going to move into
Chicago and take the shows away from the local
promoters there at all. You know, it's not going
to happen. So we're based in our markets. Those
are our, there's, there's respect for those markets
among the industry, you know, for the most part.
Some there's people who challenge that all the
time and that's okay. And that's how it goes.
But I think from our perspective, Um, you know,
I think as our home base, awesome. Nope. People
know we do the shows there. We need, you know,
the States are home, home, uh, away from home
for like theater shows and, uh, you know, Western
Mass, Northampton, Amherst, that's definitely
our second home away from home. But yeah, no,
we're not going anywhere. I love living here.
It's been a great place to raise a family. You
know, it's, it's the lifestyle is, you know,
you're in a city, you got to yell in this, this
club, you got to, you got to feed the beast every
night. Cause your rent is so crazy. Like, you
know, sure. We want to do more shows at the state,
but we can only do so many, right? There's only
so many nights a week that people aren't going
to say, I'm going to go see Elvis Costello and
not, you know, Colin Hay or whatever. Cause it's
just, I can't do both. You know, you can't put
people in that position. So we don't have to
do that every night. I think that leads to a
better lifestyle. It gives you time to be a good.
family, you know, person as well, which is important
to me, you know, it's a, it's good to have balance
in life. And luckily we're, we're still bringing
big names into small towns. That's a really cool
thing. I've been at all these shows you're talking
about, and again, I appreciate it. Dan Smalls
presents DSPshows .com. I'm signed up for the
mailing list. Make sure you sign up, because
like you said, they don't inundate you with garbage
email. I mean, it's once a week, right? Once
a week? Once a month? Wednesdays at noon. Wednesdays
at noon, I get a list of everything I want to
know. Here's the new shows. Here's the passwords
for pre -sales. Here's the shows that were coming
up next week. Here's some stuff down the road.
Stay here or leave it. Last, absolute last. Did
you golf yet? I know you love to golf like me.
Have you been out yet? Oh, I do. I have. You
know, this year has been terrible. My kid's been
out a few times, but I haven't, but I will be
back. I'm still, last summer I might've gotten
out eight or 10 times. The end of the last year,
the handicap was really low, you know, in single
digits. Oh, look at you. I'm stuck with that
now because I had it and it takes a long time
to go back up. So, you know, anyone wants to
make money now, play me on my handicap and you're
going to win. All right. All right. I'll do it.
I would love to play some golf with you. Dude,
I was let's do that. Yeah, once we get past this,
I have a feeling Wiley will have his future figured
out in August, which leaves the whole fall to
play lots of golf. Awesome. I'm pretty excited
about it. Hit me up and we'll do it, man. Thank
you, Dan. Seriously, thank you personally for
taking the time to come on the show. Thank you
for putting on all the shows you do, and I really
appreciate you. And I'm always supporting you,
so DSPshows .com. If things come up, I'm always
happy to come back and talk about it. I'm at
the age now where I want to give back and find
the next people who want to do what I do. We're
training them at the company, but I think there's
room for them in other places too. That's the
next phase, right? The give back is what it's
all about. All right, man. Well, cool. Thanks
for doing this. Thanks for letting me do it from
the road. Of course. It would have taken a lot
longer if we were in person. Absolutely, man.
Dan Smalls, thank you so much. You got it dude.
Thanks for everything all right brother All right,
that's it for this episode of good news York
brought to you by ads on the go get ads on the
go calm I'm Mike Brindisi Thanks for tuning in
this week next week. We've got so many guests
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of good news York calm and anywhere where you
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So we will see you next week