Welcome to the Pink Persuader on Mental Health,
a podcast exploring mental health through honest
conversations and lived insights. Hello and welcome
to the Pink Persuader on Mental Health. This
is episode 3 of this podcast and I am welcoming
you all along with my very first guest of this
podcast, my best friend of... of about 17 years
and double amputee, mental health sufferer, Mr.
Dennis Levy. Welcome. Hello, everyone. Thank
you for having me, man. Thank you for letting
me be the first guest. To be fair, to me, it
was a really important conversation to have because
I think you are someone that I've known to have
mental health issues most of your life. Yeah.
um like myself you suffer with adhd and autism
yeah um and then obviously then to then lose
your legs um yeah you know that just compiles
everything cherry on the top yeah um so person
oh yeah so obviously i know your journey but
a lot of these people that are listening probably
don't know your journey so can you sort of share
with us Like your personal journey and what led
to your amputation of both your legs. Absolutely.
Yeah. I'm happy to kind of share it as I can
remember it. Of course, man. There was a lot
of trauma that day, so I can understand. Yeah,
it was a big, big, big impact on my life, as
you can imagine. Yeah. So basically, I used to
work at... national grid like HQ. I was a cleaner.
One evening I finished a shift and went to see
some friends after work. Left there about 8 .15
and about 8 .30 I was about half a mile away
from home and unfortunately I got hit by a car.
The interesting thing is I was on the pavement
as a pedestrian. you know in a in an area where
you know in quite a residential area and you
know unfortunately no one saw it but yeah the
car um kind of spun across the pavement and caught
me between the front of the car and a wall um
basically you know long story short it twisted
one of my legs off and you know really kind of
badly damaged the other one, pulled the skin,
kind of, you know, half of them were shin bone,
you know, down to my ankle. Yeah, and I've heard
this. I've heard this before. I know exactly
what's happened. You still look shocked. This
is the thing, like, I think whenever I have conversations,
I say that my best friend is a double amputee.
Look, most people's mind goes straight to motorbike
crash or something like that. Army. Yeah, or
army. Yeah, yeah. Are you in the army? Yeah.
No. No, no. Mum was disappointed to say no sometimes.
I was just walking down the street in a coat.
Absolutely nothing, nothing particularly fun
or like... Yeah. But, so then obviously, air
ambulance pretty much saved your life that day,
didn't they? And the Coast Guard as well. I think
the... I think it was the Coast Guard helicopter
I went in, but... Right. But I think... I think
they did try and take me in the ambulance first.
Don't quote me on that. It was a bit funky on
that one. They were all involved. Every emergency
service was pretty much involved in that. You
can think of ambulance. Ambulance turned up pretty
quick, to be fair. I mean, not that my sense
of time at that point was like... I was still
conscious after the accident. So, you know, that's
just a lot of things that I don't remember that
I'd like to remember. But of course, all the
stuff I do remember is kind of not necessarily
things you want to remember. Yeah. And you then
spent a lot of time in hospital afterwards, didn't
you? Six weeks in hospital. Yeah. Which I think,
in all fairness, is what happened to me. maybe
two or three surgeries in that time. Yeah. Spent
the first two days in a coma, like a medically
induced coma. Yeah. And then just moved down
to the ward and spent four weeks at Derriford,
which I must say, the food there is bloody awful.
We want you to get better, but eat this. It's
basically made from cardboard. he's like bloody
counting it or whatever he's like what's this
yeah four weeks in Tarriford and then uh was
it two week two two two and a bit week yeah for
Trillis which just I think it's when you finally
come to Trillis that's when I finally was able
to visit you and like brought the kids as well
yeah yeah like the kids come to see you for the
first time and um yeah oh yeah i can imagine
like you're their godfather and everything and
yeah oh yeah yeah so like my young son who was
probably about three two or three at the time
um he was like he i he had to push you in the
wheelchair didn't he and yeah i've still got
a video of that and it's absolutely amazing but
um yeah so i imagine you know i mean i i know
but like a lot of this has given you a lot of
trauma isn't it yeah um C2 PTSD for sure. Yeah.
And you've actually now been diagnosed with PTSD,
haven't you? Yes. But do you, I mean, personally,
do you think you had PTSD beforehand or is that
the main contributing factor to your PTSD diagnosis?
I've been probably through some things growing
up that maybe would warrant. Me saying yes that
I probably did have PTSD before, although I wasn't
suffering at a level that is comparable to now
by any stretch. Life's been hard mentally from
about 18 for me. My chronic depression started
around then. And whether that's linked to pre
-existing PTSD or whether that's just like...
I start feeling that way. Yeah. And sometimes
environmental too. Yeah. And as well, you are,
yeah. Autistic and isolated. Yeah. And they want
to be isolated, but then you don't, you like,
you like want people here. Just sometimes it's
just like, I want people here, but I don't want
them to be near me. Yeah. And you just think,
yeah, there's no way you can say that to people
is there without being, it's that. link of having
adhd and autism the adhd wants to be around people
and it wants to have fun and do things with people
and then you've got the autism that is being
antisocial and not wanting to be around people
at all. And I get that battle. I have that same...
We're the same on that, aren't we? We're identical.
Yeah. There's probably a reason we've been friends
for 16 years and not fallen out in that 17 years.
Oh yeah, no, because we forget each other exists
for years at a time. Oh yeah, Dan exists. Come
round the corner one day and you'll spit for
the enemy. There's my best friend in nearly 20
years. Yeah. I forgot to give him my new phone
number. So he thought I died. Trying to phone
you for two days. Oh, dear. So, personally, from
your point of view, how do you think becoming
an amputee has really affected your mental health?
obviously there's the obvious you know dealing
with not being able to walk properly and everything
like that but how how has that then developed
your like how you struggle with your mental health
differently to how you were before it's interesting
because there's aspects that since my amputations
as aspects of my mental health which have skyrocketed
you know like my resilience I think is probably
what's grown through this. Oh, mate, you're like
the most resilient motherfucker I know, honestly.
I've witnessed the whole journey and the way
you've come through it, it would have broken
most people. I think it would have broken me.
Maybe. But you've done absolutely amazing. It's
hard to say, isn't it? It's hard to say, but
I knew that from the beginning I was going to
have to have some level of... bounce back if
i wanted to do what i wanted to do some of it's
a natural mindset being being adhd you know you
know for well yourself like no for an answer
is it's difficult a lot so it's like when doctors
say ah you'll probably never walk again i'm like
you know f you i'm gonna walk again please i'm
gonna fucking it's like it's not necessarily
like you know rebellion or anything it's just
it's just that it's like i i i know what i'm
capable of and what i'm not pretty well yeah
and i think that's another way it's it's effective
but i mean there's always a flip side of course
and it's like i mean personal relationships are
harder now uh like like they they did say back
at the beginning um i had you know a few assessments
on you know how things might be for me in the
future and he said you know because you already
have chronic depression there's a good chance
it's going to get worse and worse and worse yeah
and not stop getting worse and that's what's
happening yeah so that is the the worst and the
most scary part of the whole thing is that like
i didn't at the beginning think it was going
to get this bad because i've always been able
to cope yeah but then it has actually got to
a stage back back around christmas of last year
when it's really really bad and you know thinking
about suicide and you know having thoughts about
driving my car off house mouth and things like
that yeah and you know that's just to be honest
yeah and i think we've got to be honest about
those those times because actually it's a big
part and um you know as one of your best friends
i didn't you know You didn't want to talk to
anyone about it, did you? And I think it was
months later that you were finally talking to
me about it. We've done a lot over the last few
months, haven't we, to try and improve both of
our mental healths because actually we both have
our struggles with it and it is up and down.
You've been through some things too recently,
haven't you? Yeah. There's been... there's been
a lot a display of resilience from both of us
yeah like same view as well yeah i mean over
the time it's been you know it's been you know
what five was it five years ago your accident
four four years four years ago so four years
ago you had your accident I genuinely thought
I'd lost my best friend the day your dad sent
me a message to say what had happened or phone
me I can't even remember if he phoned me or messaged
me um no I can't I can't imagine that you know
no imagine what I know that my parents had to
phone a whole bunch of people yeah and I do know
that you know quite a lot of people were upset
but they didn't tell me how many people they
found or who they found just that they did and
you know people were upset but hearing about
that is definitely yeah like genuinely at that
time i thought i was gonna lose my best friend
and then obviously you you got better which is
you know and you're still here you know like
we're still doing things together um we're being
able to do this podcast you know which is like
a big thing it's my my baby at the minute and
it's great to share that with you and then obviously
he was mustered out six weeks ago or so five
six weeks ago i then got told that a friend of
mine had been taken into hospital um well obviously
you met him as well so briefly yeah and um yeah
he's a lovely chap and unfortunately he lost
his battle with his illness and that's been that's
been tough on me do i mean like actually yeah
like that's brought my my depression and anxiety
back up a little bit and it's been a struggle
like so you know it is one of those things and
i think some of that is actually some of the
trauma of like what it was like when you you
went into hospital like that that was a bit of
a stark reminder in a way because like i never
thought i'd have to really deal with that again
even think about that element yeah of of it really
it's just you know because i i just kind of thought
to myself you know you knew him really well yeah
yeah better than i did and i met the fella once
yeah he made a really lasting impression on me
yeah for sure um so you can only imagine but
the thing is like over the last since since it's
passing like you have kept your head up and just
about yeah i've um i had a lot of support from
from from aj um Work my work mates have been
really brilliant, you know really understanding
So yeah, and that's always the help. Yeah and
having man down like man down is like for me
is It's one of those things like, you know, I've
been able to talk about it, which is good like
That's been really helpful But yeah, it's been
one of those it's just We had the funeral last
last week so it's like that's part of the the
recovery process i think as well sometimes yeah
it's part of healing um you know so it has been
it's been a it's been a process but it's definitely
getting there but um yeah it's been it's one
of those and it's sort of like i think actually
Doing this today with my best friend, it's one
of those things that's a real positive for me.
It's one of those days where it's like, yes,
something good. Brings back some energy. Yeah.
It gives you something to look forward to. I'm
looking forward to hearing this. As I just quickly
talk about Man Down, I started going a couple
of months ago, was it? Yeah, yeah. Months ago,
six weeks ago. Yeah. I've missed a few here and
there you know just due to things and what have
you but the sessions I've attended have certainly
helped and it's like even if it's just even if
it's just the fact that I got out for the evening
with my friend like yeah there's times where
that's like really really helpful yeah but just
the camaraderie of the place and like you do
go there expecting to feel like people was looking
at you because you knew and you know like will
people really listen and accept what i say yeah
you know you know what i'm saying but it really
is like yeah and you've got the added thing that
was walking walking in somewhere on two prosthetic
legs and thinking are people going to judge me
for that right yeah um and yeah like i think
it was one like my It was a really proud moment
for me the day that you came to Man Down and
you shared. And I was really proud that you did
that. And I was really proud of you. It was a
really proud moment that I managed to finally
get you to come. Because it's been a conversation
for a long time. Over a year, I think. yeah trying
to get me in there i'm 13 in my head yeah that's
my problem that's what we are i think sometimes
we are a bit like that yeah from kevin i'm not
slight but i i still do it like now and i yeah
i class myself as a mental health advocate someone
that understands mental health someone who advises
people talks to people online yeah i'm advising
i advise people through this podcast and all
sorts of stuff like that and it's like still
the few weeks ago i was really struggling i had
a few drinks went on tick tock i was live on
tick tock yeah yeah i'm fine i'm fine like holding
back tears do you know what i mean and I was
like, do you know what? Actually, it took AJ
turning around to me and going, Dan, you're being
a hypocrite doing that. Because actually, you
want people to talk. You're encouraging people
to talk. But actually, then you're doing the
complete opposite. You're bottling it up and
hiding it from everyone else. And actually...
you're not fine so own it and and actually i
was like yeah the pink persuader needs to right
like this is your motto yeah yeah yeah it's my
part of my ethos is like yeah like talking about
things and sharing and being open with things
it's like it's all part of what i believe is
a big help with mental health and yeah i i will
admit when i start struggling then i do forget
that sometimes myself which is the good reminder
of having mad down every two weeks because actually
then it's like yeah i'm in the place where i
need to talk about this but what's brilliant
is that over like the last few weeks where i
have been i've taken a bit of a break from social
media at times i had that one life where i went
a bit crazy and all my followers have been absolutely
amazing like people have sent me messages going
like we're behind you whether you're here or
not yeah you don't need to rush back for us you
know you're a great community the community is
fantastic like i can't i can't fault them um
like the likes of they won't mind me mentioning
mel damo azaria fox um i'll try to remember everyone
now i'll put myself on the spot aj's part of
the community as well which is brilliant like
she comes in and talks with everyone and um Keeps
me in line most of the time because my ADHD brain
goes off on tangents. But I've got some really
awesome followers. I mean, in the time since
the last podcast, I've run the Plymouth Half
Marathon as well. You did, yeah. Aziria, who
is one of my TikTok followers, actually travelled
all the way down from Nottingham to come and
support me during that. we've never met in person
literally come all the way down which is absolutely
awesome you know so it's been yeah it's been
a hell of a journey like this last few weeks
honestly but you know it's yeah it's getting
there in a way I think I'm still not 100 % I
know that I probably won't be 100 % for a little
while but No, exactly. But I'm going to keep
being the Pink Persuader because being the Pink
Persuader helps. Do you know what I mean? It
really keeps me going. I enjoy it and have a
lot of fun with it and try and help people as
much as I can. In that sense, it helps me. What
would you be doing otherwise? I mean, just working.
There's nothing wrong with that, but I know you
well enough to know that you're not happy with
that. Yeah. Well enough to know that you have
to have something else on the go to do at least.
I don't have any hobbies like that. Like TikTok
and doing this podcast. These are my hobbies.
Do you know what I mean? And I really enjoy that.
Hobbies. Yeah. That's important. Yeah. It is
important. Hobbies is important for people with
depression. Yeah. Oh, 100%. You ain't got a hobby
that you can crack on with. I mean, I think that
applies doubly to people with autism, ADHD and
both. Yeah. it's like i just go back into cameras
and film cameras and things yeah i think that's
important like like for you especially like you
need to get out and about and do things don't
you um definitely you know a big help as well
yeah yeah and like obviously music's a big one
for you as well isn't it like yeah um musician
20 or two years or something yeah i think uh
a couple decades worth of playing guitar for
sure yeah yeah and you're in you know you're
you're good at it and you enjoy the process don't
you you know are you okay yeah i'm not i'm at
a point of it where i can't say to people anymore
that i'm Yeah, you can't. I'm not like Steve
Vai or nothing. I can play guitar well enough
to entertain myself and other people. I've been
a huge fan of yours since we were at college
together anyway. I did the rock and roll thing
anyway. I've been in bands. I think I'll always
miss that. I'll miss that. That's one aspect
of my life that it took away. I think it's probably
as much as I don't want it to be maybe. so he's
gone yeah it's gone in the sense that it that
it was then you know i can still play music yeah
you're not you you're not you're not gonna be
running around the stage like a lunatic and doing
like you know flinging around your neck and stuff
like that yeah just the thought of doing it all
from like the wheelchair and the prosthetics
is not it's like daily life unfortunately these
days is it's like yeah hairlessly tiring yeah
wheelchair usage is about as knackering as you
can imagine and prosthetics are even worse yeah
i've seen the journey like i've i've been there
i've watched you trying to yeah i've seen you
nearly fall i've caught you when you've nearly
fallen um you know we have to be fair yeah um
You know, I... Bungled me into a car. Bungled
you into a car, yeah. Scared the living hell
out of people. What the hell are you doing, man?
Yeah. Well, you told me to grab hold of a stump
and shove you in. I won't repeat the words that
I said because that probably would get me back.
He was not offended, by the way. We deal with
a lot of the trauma that we've had from that
accident with humour, don't we? We do. You know,
we take the piss out. of each other we probably
say things that people don't think we should
say oh definitely um i said i made a comment
the other day actually um after you lent me the
van um and i called it the the mobile that we
call it And yeah, I said it in front of one of
my colleagues. You can't say that. I was like,
I can. It's my best friend. I was going to say,
yeah. You know what I mean? I wouldn't go up
to a random disabled person and talk to them
the way I talk to you. No, of course not. We've
built this over a friendship of 17 years. You're
allowed to. I can just about say things. We've
been mashing on each other. Since we were 16.
for however long we've been friends yeah mashing
on each other like you know in a fun loving way
yeah oh 100 like it's that banter isn't it big
old big old dan dan with a big old belly hey
it's good he quit they bear as he stood my belly
yeah hey it's bought and paid for i'm not getting
rid of it yeah that's right as it is You can
keep it until you pay for it. He's got a belly
on finance. But this is the thing, people look
at me and they judge. I think you get that as
well, don't you? Oh yeah, in town. I get it because
of my appearance, like coloured hair, piercings,
head tattoos and stuff like that. You get it
for obviously being an amputee. How does that...
how does that actually feel like for you because
that like i choose to be like this you know so
people judging me as a bit of a like yeah okay
that's fine like yeah you can rest on the law
of being like well i've chosen this yeah yeah
yeah but like for you you this wasn't a choice
for you yeah you know like but you do get a lot
of like people looking judging probably people
um assume my ability levels, which I think is
what upsets me the most. Yeah. I've said this
from the very beginning is that, um, you know,
people be like, you know, doing things that like
preactively do things to try and be like, Oh,
you're disabled. So you probably can't do this.
And so, or, or people just want to help. And
it's just like, but the thing is like, I don't
necessarily really want the help. But I mean,
there's a lot of disabled people. And the thing
is, not problem. The thing is that there's a
lot of disabled people out there who won't ask
for help. Who will just kind of, you know, look
around until someone offers to help. Which is
fair. It's difficult and it can feel embarrassing.
I think that's the thing. It can feel embarrassing
to be going down the road and every other person...
is looking at your legs or you being in a wheelchair
and you just think like it makes you feel like
a freak yeah like an outcast and it's like the
thing is if i had normal legs you wouldn't even
recognize my existence thing is as well i think
i'd be nobody yeah i think for some reason like
having no legs that makes me somebody in in people's
lives and that's what's confusing about it yeah
like you know people want to know me but only
want to know me because they want to know about
my story. Yeah. And then after that, people are
like, cool, then they go. Yeah. It's like, I've
actually have now stopped. replying to people
in in that sense like if people and people come
up to me i don't care how polite they are the
answer is no you're not hearing the story i've
told it enough over the last four times yeah
over four sorry over the last four years i've
told it enough times what you can do now to you
know if someone comes up to you and goes what's
your story you tell them don't listen to the
pink persuader on mental health i've now got
rights to the story but yeah it's tough in there
like you know i mean i've helped like even when
i've offered to help you you struggle to let
me help don't you and i'm i'm your friend of
years yeah like i mean nothing i remember the
first time you came around to my house after
the accident you had no prosthetics you literally
just had a wheelchair that really didn't not
even this one no it wasn't even light was it
like and what was it you used to bum shuffle
up the stairs didn't you used to lift yourself
up the stairs on your oh my god hands and you
know um and then you get to the top stairs i
had to lift you back into the wheelchair at that
point as well didn't i did like yep and i mean
to be fair i'll do it again do you know what
i mean i know you would like doesn't bother me
at all but how did that like for you How did
that feel? I don't think I've ever asked you
how that felt. We've had conversations about
it. I mean, in a sense, I think it's nice because
there's an element of my best friend, my brother,
who cares enough for me to not have... You don't
feel any embarrassment about it. No. But I do.
Or I did. Now. yeah but at the time it did feel
like a bit embarrassing because it's just like
i'm you know being having to i'm having to have
not by my choice having to have someone else
handle me yeah in a way that particularly i don't
want realistically do it in like in the best
way either anyway but it's not like you're like
uh eager to oh no freaking do it you're not like
yeah so you know what i mean this is yeah it's
not it's not and i don't mean it embarrassing
in the sense of like you know shameful no but
in the sense of like that is that is how just
just the feeling that came up it's like it's
not i don't know i'm connected to that feeling
though if that makes sense i think that's completely
valid feeling yeah a hundred percent is a valid
feeling that actually you know You had to be
chucked around by your best mate. Yeah. And,
you know, actually, yeah. I can imagine it probably
was a bit like, oh, Jesus, I just wish I could
do this myself. Embarrassing might be the wrong
word. Like... But then I don't want to say degrading.
I think degrading is too strong of a word. Maybe
dehumanising. Yeah. That's probably the best
way of putting it. I didn't feel human at that
point. I felt like... something else yeah you
know when and especially like that hospital before
like pre -prosthetics but and thing is now look
i don't actually use my prosthetics a great deal
anymore no because that was like the big thing
as well wasn't it we were like when we first
started talking like the be a wall and end always
get the prosthetics and uh being able to do more
but actually i think that's sort of developed
over time of actually their handy aid yeah they
yeah they they allow me to do things that other
wheelchair users can't yeah because i can if
that makes sense but i've developed a way of
living from a wheelchair that works for me yeah
um you know i've still got one good knee so i
kind of use that um you know improved my balance
quite a bit recently. Kneel up on my knee and
push, you know, get up into the wheelchair. You
know, I don't do things the standard disabled
way. Yeah. And people be like, why do you make
it hard for yourself? Well, yeah, no, it does
make it hard for me. And that is correct. Yeah.
Like there's an element of like. If you make
things easy for me, you're essentially giving
a lazy man a way to be lazier. Yeah. I don't
need that. No. Quite frankly, if you leave it
to me, I'll just fucking do nothing every day.
So, you know, there's an element of life as well
that I think you probably know a bit about as
well, it's like procrastination. oh yeah that
that that's um that hit myself from the freaking
head of a hammer like sometimes with the amount
of frustration i feel it just like i want to
do this i can do it i've got i've got the finance
i've got the the patience i've got the skills
but whatever you just sit there and it's like
There's no reason why for it, though, is there?
But there's no reasoning for it, is there? I'll
do it tomorrow. Yeah, yeah. You know you might
as well just do it today. Yeah, I get it. It's
a big thing with ADHD, though, isn't it? It's
that freezing and that... What's the word I'm
looking for? Oh, paralysis that you get. Where
you want to be doing things. Yeah. and people
i think it's a big misconception with adhd especially
is that people expect us to be bouncing off the
walls all the time but we're not and actually
a lot of the time yes we get our hyper moments
where we are like running around like absolutely
lunatics but a lot of the time it's your brain
that just doesn't stop yes like it's not stopping
but also like outwardly people but it looks to
outsiders like you have stopped yeah sometimes
like you'd be you know when you say now yeah
yeah and people be like you're not listening
it's like well i am but i'm also listening to
what's going on in my head yeah yeah like 17
conversations going on in there and like it's
processing that audio as well because i you know
something i've literally discovered in the last
few weeks is that yes i've got mild hearing loss
but i've potentially got uh auditory processing
disorder and i'm like okay right so basically
i i can hear things sometimes but my brain just
doesn't want to process that stuff and it's like
apparently it's a it's a thing very common with
neurodiverse people with adhd and autism and
probably all sorts of the spectrum conditions
that are now linked with these conditions i do
do that yeah you have something similar i don't
think you're maybe quite as bad as you but there's
just occasions where someone will say something
i'll be like what and then they'll start repeating
it and i'm like oh yeah you know the answer but
that that's a that's almost everyone don't do
it anymore stop stop stop i already know i already
know stop and then they keep on answering the
question yeah yeah it's an absolute nightmare
isn't it like and i think we we live in a neurotypical
world yes as neurodiverse people and It's not
an excuse to be a shitty person, is it? No, definitely
not. And some of our things that come with ADHD
and autism can come across to people as being
shitty people. We are 100 % not. I know that.
I can be. Oh, yeah. I think we can all be at
some point in our lives. I can be unreasonable
when I'm upset. I know that. Yes, ADHD or autism
is the reason, but it's not an excuse, is it?
No, no, no, totally. You can still put your hands
up and say you were wrong. Yeah, this is it.
I shouldn't have reacted like that, do you know
what I mean? Yeah, totally. And we've got to
try and fit ourselves into this neurotypical
world. And we're both bringing up kids. I mean,
I know for sure my son is going through assessment
processes and stuff like that. I don't know about
Fred. Do you think Fred's possibly on the spectrum
and stuff like that? I would say so. I mean,
I wouldn't like to say. It has been discussed
in the family. He exhibits signs of it. The school
and the doctors have said that basically he functions
well enough that a formal assessment on the NHS
would be... Yeah, no. They're basically saying...
he's not he's not autistic enough yeah but he's
not near a divergent yeah yeah because because
they have to yeah and i understand that they
have to put levels on it because quite frankly
like they can't treat everyone they have to they
have to make rules again yeah yeah no absolutely
not but my my point to that is more the fact
of actually we're teaching young kids that actually
yeah okay is perfectly normal for you as a neurodiverse
person to feel this way yeah but as well it's
not an excuse for you to like hit people or do
nasty things do i mean we've got to now try yeah
because we were never understood like that as
kids were we you know it was like yeah you know
you would it was never like gentle parenting
of that age was it like i mean gentle parenting
just wasn't a thing just wasn't didn't exist
yeah it was tough tough yeah and as well like
we we grew up in relatively you know i mean contextually
poor areas yeah or a poor area of the country
really yeah because all the corn was relatively
poor yeah yeah comparison to to some other parts
of the country right you know i mean i must say
i grew up quite poor in all fairness yeah yeah
you know just that's the way it was and yeah
you know that's stressful too yeah and and this
is the thing it's like now we're learning from
that yeah and i and the thing is like people
might listen to this and go oh you blame your
parents where you brought up but actually it's
not their fault because it they they would they
learn from their parents who actually even harder
nobody knows that's the thing and that's the
thing well yeah you know my grandparents were
pretty hard on my parents I know yeah so actually
it had to be with each generation is learning
from each other do you know what I mean there's
still aspects of like my parents parenting that
I use do you know what I mean um you know and
there's the aspects of the gentle therapeutic
parenting that I've learned being a support worker
with children as a mixture you know I'm not saying
I'm perfect do you know what i mean i still lose
my lose my every now and then do you know what
i mean but yeah with your kids what parent doesn't
even five and seven yeah so it's it's like they're
at that age where you're gonna you oh yeah and
you have to to and i mean at least one of them
was near a divergent mary i would like to say
but no yeah you know is this that adds to it
but then as well here's the thing that I just
wanted to go back quickly talking about Fred
and me and Sid and Mary and us is that I do think
though that like us knowing that we have ADHD
autism allows us to become better parents to
children that are neurodivergent because like
I you know this doesn't apply to every neurodivergent
person but I learned over the course of my life
I've done things wrong because I thought they
were right but then when I've learned that they're
wrong I put myself right and kept myself there
as much as possible yeah and so yeah I think
that being an autistic parent to an autistic
child is probably best you know because at the
end of the day there's no pill there's no i mean
you you know if you adhd you might be able to
get dextro amphetamine yeah basically but yeah
but even then that's that's like not a it's not
a one -size -fits -all solution no There's this
guide to children, your autistic children in
an autistic way through a world that, like you
say, isn't for autistic people. But quite frankly,
this world isn't set up for anybody who's disabled
because we're a minority. And it's unfair, but
I think maybe my view on it is maybe quite stoic
or conservative. like the hand I have isn't fair
the amount of help that I don't get isn't fair
but that's what it is yeah unfortunately yeah
and and and you know get to that glass ceiling
yeah and stay under it if your glass ceiling
won't let you through but get up to it a fucking
stay though yeah enjoy enjoy what you can yeah
because and this is it that thing that you don't
have everything is accepting that and as well
here's here's an interesting concept that i've
been talking about in therapy right is is like
accepting that you might not ever accept yeah
and think about that yeah because that's that's
a thing you can accept that you might not ever
accept something I'm not saying that's easy or
achievable in a lifetime it's a concept that
you can think of and work around it's a good
way to frame things and framing things you can
take a set of information about your life and
say let's look at it this way let's look at it
in a different way Yeah. Purpose things. And
this is the thing. You've got to look at these
things in a certain way, haven't you? Especially
when you're struggling with your mental health.
It's really hard to look at things objectively.
Yeah. Very. But obviously it sounds like therapy
has been a good thing for you as well. Some people
don't like therapy. Some people don't get on
with therapy. But I think it's been a really
helpful thing for you. Right therapist. Yeah.
Has unlocked, you know, after the accident, I
got paid out. yeah from from the driver's insurance
and um you know one of the first things i did
was was you know um used the case management
company to find me you know a reputable therapist
who they thought i'd get along with um he's called
tim salzman and yeah he's he's i've been working
with him for about nearly two years now wow that's
a long time and you must build up a hell of a
relationship in that time as well absolutely
you know and that's important he's one of the
very few people in this actually he is the only
person on this planet who understands me yeah
in my entirety yeah to the to with the information
i've given him yeah that makes sense yeah he
knows a lot more about me than anybody but because
like you know it's um uh impartial yeah you know
he's not there necessarily like do or say anything
but just to kind of you know yeah guide and going
through the process of of it i think it it varies
from person to person it's like i know my mind
really well yeah i read to be self -aware so
for me like therapy it was about expressing myself
And knowing that I can just do that. Yeah. And,
and, you know, I can't affect any relationship
negatively or positively. Um, I think that that's
because you can, in therapy, you can get upset,
you can get angry, you can get, you can cry,
you can laugh, you can be happy, still in your
therapy. yeah you don't have to show up any any
given way or use it in any any particular way
and think there's there's a stigma around therapy
yeah is that like you know of course when people
and here here's the biggest thing isn't it it's
like the mental health services in this country
basically have made it so people are scared of
therapy yeah there's a therapy that we get for
free in this country is let's be honest useless
to most people yeah because it's it's it's it's
it's cook it is it is the shape of a jigsaw piece
yeah yeah yeah but but everybody else is you
know you've got a square jigsaw piece but some
people might be circled yeah people might be
dodecahedron yeah you know what i'm saying but
but and that's what that's the benefits of private
therapy that shit that shit is expensive yeah
and you know it's not available to everyone is
it i mean no it's that's the problem i have with
it it's awesome that you've that you've got that
i mean like someone like myself i'm so lucky
like um i can't afford private therapy uh i've
had talking therapies through the nhs right and
both times i've had it you didn't find it no
hopefully i didn't find it helpful at all then
that's the thing it's like two sessions yeah
what's the point yeah and i say that you know,
the greatest respect still for the NHS. Yeah,
we are lucky to have it. We're not slating them.
But at the same time, like government budgets
obviously need to be changed because two sessions
isn't enough. Considering I've had, I mean, yeah,
I have complex problems, fine, but I've had two
years of therapy and I wouldn't even say that
I've made, broken off the tip of the iceberg.
Yeah. and this is the thing it's like the titanic
today yeah and that's what we know well this
is the thing i mean i i like to think of myself
as pretty much pretty self -aware most of the
time um i have my moments when i'm not um but
like i do wonder sometimes how much is in there
do you know what i mean like But I think I deal
with things better than I ever used to. Definitely.
I know that for sure. I mean, the amount of times
I used to drink my way through depression and
it would be like the answer was at the bottom
of the bottle. I've seen mistakes. I've seen,
like, back around the time when Tane played at
the Dragon a few times. Yeah, yeah. That was,
like, going towards the end of your marriage
was... that was i was worried about you then
yeah i was keeping the night and yeah it was
like i mean i had my own because i think i might
have been going through divorce pretty much or
like separation just that just before before
it wasn't yeah yeah yeah so it's like what 20
21 i was like yes three years later yeah i don't
know i was already out with it yeah yeah but
it's still like that was something as well wasn't
it yeah like that that's a big life event yeah
and i'll tell you what um i think it's one of
those things sometimes actually when yeah and
a lot of people don't get this when they come
out of their marriages and stuff um i've seen
so much of it like a lot of hatred and right
yeah um i know me and my ex -wife we've had our
issues But I think the main one was I had kicked
our asses. I was like, you need to get on for
the sake of the kids. And we did. And do you
know what? He was right. And do you know what?
We both make a real effort now to to get on,
like to be friendly and work together because
actually at the end of the day, we're both parents.
You know, we want to do what's best for our kids.
So actually and that and that is my. That would
be my advice to anyone. I know some marriages
end really messy. But always just do what's best.
Do as much as you can to be the best people for
your kids. Even if it's not all the time, don't
show them. But I think as a big thing for the
journey that I've seen of... like just my experience
as well like um it's not good for your mental
health when you are fighting like cat and dog
like it made me feel awful yeah um and since
yeah and since we've now been grown up about
you know we've grown up about things you know
we we get on and actually yeah we get we like
we get on to like a friend's level in a way um
yeah we can go out and do things you know as
a family yeah when it's the kids birthdays we
can do parties together you know we can go for
a day out together do you know what i mean and
that's not you know like the first couple times
it wasn't easy but how much did the kids love
it they loved it a lot it's it's all for the
kids yeah it's all for and even if even if that's
always what it is yeah like that's that's just
important and i i think i have a similar relationship
with my ex -wife in that you know we don't we
we haven't ever had a fight since you know since
our separation yeah and we both said that we
both said that we're not interested in using
kids as leverage yeah you know it's leverage
because it's just not i mean quite frankly like
i i i you know i i love the boy more than love
anything so yeah you know using them as a pawn
in a game of chess and too old for that you know
personally like i feel personally like i'm too
mature to bother with that stuff yeah you know
i don't i don't i don't try not to you know unfortunately
it does happen it does happen a lot you know
lots of cases of it but you know i think from
a personal standpoint if you can ever do the
best to get on then i've learned that lesson
after the fact don't get me wrong like you know
as i've said it took a kick up the back side
first um but you know actually it works and this
is where i think things i think just genuinely
like as people like we we need to be better do
you know what i mean um and i'm not saying that
from a man's point of view or a woman's point
of view people just need to be better Do you
know what I mean? Well, yeah, I agree. I agree.
It's a motto that we... Was it Frank Tonin? Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Was it Frank? No. I don't think it
was Frank. Yeah, he did write a song, Get Better.
That was a really cool song. I love that. I'm
thinking of something else. Turning into me nanny.
Joey Swole. Oh, that's it. Joey Swole. Joey Swole.
Do better. Yeah, just do better. And I'll tell
you what, it's true, though. Especially in the
gym as well. oh god gym gym etiquette and like
being a good person at the gym just seems to
be like a real hard thing for people even though
you spray down the bench no sweat patch where
they've been laying around oh yeah i was laid
out anyway well i'm gonna shower afterwards you
can't kill me this is the thing isn't it like
you you've come through a situation that probably
could you know probably should have killed you
uh yeah i i would imagine right it would have
killed like 99 of people yeah and in all fairness
like it probably came about as close as you would
like to killing me and it did and probably at
that time just survived but you weren't like
you were probably at that sort of stage in your
life where you probably and please correct me
if i'm wrong you weren't suicidal but if someone
had gone to you yeah you're gonna die tomorrow
you'd be like yeah you're exactly right i'm still
like that person like to tell you the truth yeah
if someone was to say are you a good darling
within a couple months time i'd probably just
be like cool all right and i know that's horrible
i know yeah that's not right and and and the
point i'm gonna make is like is like that's the
way i know that i'm feeling yeah i don't i know
but i also know that it's not actually reality
yeah like my brain's just like my brain my brain
has problems and it's saying that yeah yeah of
course of course I want to live. I've got friends,
I've got family who will be devastated if I left
this astral plane. Also, I believe that I have
no control over that, as evidenced by my accident.
Because quite frankly, if I was going to die
that night, if that was my designated day to
die, then I would have died. That's just, I have
funny... i had a i had a funny relationship with
death before the accident anyways yeah i've always
relatively been not been scared of dying as much
as just been like rather not yeah yeah up until
recent recent years you know i've just been like
rather not die yeah it would be inconvenient
for my family and maybe for me as a spirit and
you know otherwise this is the thing i mean it
comes to us all we all die we're all born and
we'll die but i think what you've said there
perfectly emulates what i would say as well it's
like i'll be more worried about like the people
i've left behind oh i'm sorry do you know what
i mean i'm not worried about myself like i believe
the spirit carries on after this like yeah and
does other things so yeah you know personally
for me i'm i'm happy yeah it's it's the thought
of like your kids yeah your partner like yeah
No, I couldn't imagine not being here for my
kids anymore. And that's normally one of the
things that keeps me out of that suicidal thoughts
thing. Don't be wrong. I've had those. I've been
kicked up the ass. I've talked about it, I think,
in episode one of the podcast. My sister kicked
me up the ass a couple of times to really get
me out of those situations where I've been like,
I just want to go. And sometimes when you're
in that situation, you don't think about the
effect on everyone else. But that's the thing.
I don't try and guilt myself, but it's like the
kids, you want to be around for the kids. I do
the same with self harm as well. I don't want
my kids to see that. I don't want the kids to
see that I've cut myself or I've done things
to hurt myself. And I like to think that I can
be an example to people that, yeah, have been
through it. And, you know, I'm nowhere near had
like the worst experiences for self -harm, like
some people have. But I am currently, I mean,
as we talk, 11 months clean, like, and that's
a big thing, right? Do you know what I mean?
Yeah. And I will be 12 months clean next month.
Do you know what I mean? Excellent. One year.
Yeah. like one year huge milestone um and and
but do you know what like in the last six weeks
i've had those thoughts of self -harm do you
know i'm not rightly so like i mean in a sense
yeah yeah um i'm not gonna lie about that and
that's been tough that's been really hard yeah
um but one of the things is like i sit there
and tell myself like you know i don't want to
disappoint people i don't want to i don't want
my kids to see this and part of that is like
my experiences. I think I'm an example these
days to people around me. And actually, I want
to be better. I want to be better. It's for me.
I want to be that example. I think there's you
are and you know you've got a community of people
that we said we mentioned earlier you know that
look up to you yeah as you do that which is important
and I think the thing is like there are other
people on TikTok who are mental health advocates
but you know and I don't know any names so I'm
not going to be like yeah yeah that person but
there's somewhere I'm just a bit like just seems
like you're doing that because you want the attention
of like being being a mental health advocate
you know and i'm using inverted commas but like
there are people on the flip side who you can
tell are real genuine it's like you're not doing
it because because you particularly want the
respect but yeah but because it's an important
thing to you yeah this is the thing i'll quite
often say like i don't think the pink persuader
of mental health is going to be a big podcast
in the world but if it reaches the right people
It reaches that person that's struggling at that
time and it makes someone feel better. That's
what matters to me. Do you know what I mean?
Am I going to become a world famous influencer
on TikTok? No, probably not. But that doesn't
bother me. That really doesn't bother me. I'm
in it to do what I do and help people. The only
thing that pushing my profile out there does
for me... this is why I do continue to push it
because I use it to to fundraise and raise awareness
that's the only reason I push and try and publicize
my profile is for the awareness and the financial
gain it can give to the charities I support yeah
I mean in a few months for the half -marathon
I use TikTok a lot for raising money for that.
Raised £1 ,600. £1 ,600. And that's crazy. Did
that all go to Man Down? That all went to Man
Down. Every single bit. That's massive as well,
isn't it? Because it's not like you pay anything
to go to them sessions. No, no, no. It's all
free. All the guys are volunteers. Literally
the money. any money that was raised for man
down goes into funding more meetings you know
yeah um and funding awareness basically do i
mean and um hopefully i'm gonna be talking to
a few more guys from man down uh who actually
volunteers i've had some volunteers to come in
ideal um which will be awesome so i don't know
when that's going to be yet but um But so far,
we have done the longest episode of the Pink
Persuader on Mental Health. I knew this would
probably happen. That's the time. So we've been
chatting for 58 minutes. I mean, I could probably
go for another two. I'll tell you what, honestly.
And I'll tell you what, mate. I think, actually,
I would love to have you back. Just this open
chat. It has been awesome. To be able to sit
and speak so candidly with a best friend is awesome.
We've got that kind of relationship. But before
we sign off for this, what would be your message
to someone out there that's maybe struggling?
Probably just say, remember what I said. You
can... you can reframe things you can look at
things differently you can is and the thing is
it's not that that's easy but you've got to remember
that that everything's doable if you can think
it yeah like if you can think of a way to do
it you can think of ways to be happier than you
can be it's just you know a lot of it just i
think just comes down to remembering that A lot
of it's in your head. I know that sounds really,
like, ugh, coarse. Yeah, yeah. But it's like
I said, I know that not wanting to be here is
how I feel. Not actually what I want. Yeah. And
sometimes being able to decipher between those
things can help. So, yeah. If anyone's struggling,
reach out to your best friend. Reach out to your
brother. reach out to your mum, reach out to
whoever's there. Samaritans. Samaritans is always
a good one. I mean, anything you can do to avoid
feeling alone, sad, you know, all those things.
There's always options in other people, even
if you don't feel like it. You can always explain
to someone else. and sometimes it's not even
explaining it's just having someone else there
isn't it like say yeah that's shit yeah you know
that and if you know someone who can do that
for you yeah then you know leading on them is
probably my best advice yeah but like i said
if there's there's anyone out there who you can
kind of like think oh yeah reframe how i'm feeling
then i think that's the best thing yeah brilliant
thanks dan and i think like your your aspects
of this have been brilliant. This one wants to
talk to somebody. Yeah, my idea is to talk to
different people like because actually, I don't
know everything about mental health. I don't
always like to be an amputee. You know, I mean,
it's hopefully we're gonna be able to talk to
a lot of different people and carry on this podcast
and help a lot of people. That's the that's the
whole aim of the game on what to grow. Yeah,
I really hope it will. And I hope it will. I
did did a thing on TikTok the other day, I was
like, I posted a video like this is an open message
to Jared Reddick. I would love the pink sweater.
I'm going to try and keep posting a few videos,
see if I can get a response at least. Please
let me record it here. Yeah. It would probably
have to be like a Zoom thing, but that would
make my day. I would be there. Do you want me?
That's me. reaching the pinnacle of where i want
to go but no for the time being uh you know having
my friends and fellow mental health sufferers
come and do this podcast with me that's that's
enough do i mean like i thoroughly enjoy this
we've we've done an hour of recording and this
it's just been us like this this is not going
to be edited at all this is just conversation
between friends of and going to be listened to
by other people do i mean like there is going
to be background noise there's going to be things
that yeah there's gonna be laughs there's gonna
be times we talk over each other because we've
got adhd and we talk over each other But I'll
tell you what I haven't done this time. What's
that? I haven't messed up my words. Like, normally,
in both episodes, say, for the podcast, there's
a moment where I've messed up my words. But I
leave it in there because, actually, it happens
all the time. It happens when I'm talking most
of the time. Pretty sure I did it at some point.
Yeah. During this episode. It's fine. Yeah. I
do it all the time. Well, this is it. And I think
the most important thing is this is natural conversation.
Yeah. And this is what I think is the most helpful
real thing. But, Den, thank you so much for joining
me. Thank you for having me. It's really been
great to do this. And as always, guys, I want
to say much love and be more kind. And also,
stay pink and stay positive.