WEBVTT 00:00:00.140 --> 00:00:04.259 We make God mad I really believe that the pagans 00:00:04.259 --> 00:00:06.820 and the abortionist and the feminist and the 00:00:06.820 --> 00:00:09.320 gays and the lesbians who are actively trying 00:00:09.320 --> 00:00:12.519 to make that an alternative lifestyle the ACLU 00:00:12.519 --> 00:00:15.560 people for the American Way all of them who tried 00:00:15.560 --> 00:00:20.000 to secularize America I Point the thing in their 00:00:20.000 --> 00:00:23.460 face and say you helped this happen All right, 00:00:23.539 --> 00:00:27.760 y 'all. So that was Jerry Falwell And he is the 00:00:27.760 --> 00:00:31.100 founder of Liberty user university, Liberty university. 00:00:31.199 --> 00:00:34.159 And he's also the leader of the moral majority. 00:00:34.420 --> 00:00:38.020 And honestly, he's generally not the nicest guy. 00:00:38.539 --> 00:00:41.740 He definitely has a mentality of like, you know, 00:00:41.960 --> 00:00:45.479 no hate, like Christian love. Um, and honestly, 00:00:45.600 --> 00:00:48.899 just hearing him makes my skin crawl, um, for 00:00:48.899 --> 00:00:52.439 a lot of reasons, but I'll, um, I'll just give 00:00:52.439 --> 00:00:56.710 a little personal anecdote. Um, When I was younger, 00:00:57.170 --> 00:01:01.689 there was Jimmy and Tammy Faye Baker, tele evangelist. 00:01:01.770 --> 00:01:04.349 My parents got so locked into them, man, like 00:01:04.349 --> 00:01:08.870 they gave so much money to Tim and Tim to Jim 00:01:08.870 --> 00:01:12.920 and Tammy Faye. And we would go and vacation 00:01:12.920 --> 00:01:17.239 at their resort like every summer. Um, it was 00:01:17.239 --> 00:01:20.359 PTL. Um, they had a campground. They had a couple 00:01:20.359 --> 00:01:23.680 of like hotels on the camp on the grounds. Um, 00:01:23.680 --> 00:01:26.340 they had church every night, a big, like, uh, 00:01:26.340 --> 00:01:29.019 television studio. We'd go and you'd be a part 00:01:29.019 --> 00:01:30.959 of like the televised audience and all of that 00:01:30.959 --> 00:01:33.920 stuff, man. And so like, basically I'd go on 00:01:33.920 --> 00:01:36.659 vacation and go to church every night, which, 00:01:36.739 --> 00:01:41.340 you know, as a kid kind of sucks. Right. Fast 00:01:41.340 --> 00:01:45.519 forward, Jim like mismanages some money. Um, 00:01:45.799 --> 00:01:47.719 and like, you know, there's a lot of money that, 00:01:47.719 --> 00:01:50.900 that is given to his ministry, but he embezzles 00:01:50.900 --> 00:01:53.819 it and he mismanages it and he gets caught. And, 00:01:53.900 --> 00:01:57.379 you know, the empire begins to crumble. And this 00:01:57.379 --> 00:02:01.200 is probably like in the mid eighties, I'm guessing, 00:02:01.299 --> 00:02:03.739 if I can remember correctly. And also at the 00:02:03.739 --> 00:02:05.299 same time, this was, this was also kind of like, 00:02:05.299 --> 00:02:07.750 you had a lot of other televangelists like. uh, 00:02:07.829 --> 00:02:10.310 coming under some scrutiny and also scandal. 00:02:10.469 --> 00:02:12.710 You had Jimmy Swigert who had gotten caught with 00:02:12.710 --> 00:02:17.469 a prostitute, but I'll digress. Jimmy, uh, no, 00:02:17.889 --> 00:02:22.069 yeah, Jimmy, Jim, Jim Baker loses PTL. So basically 00:02:22.069 --> 00:02:24.050 he decides to give it up because he doesn't want 00:02:24.050 --> 00:02:26.050 to see that go under. He starts to kind of offload 00:02:26.050 --> 00:02:30.189 his assets to different groups. Jerry Falwell 00:02:30.189 --> 00:02:35.479 comes in to run. That like that arm of his ministry, 00:02:35.659 --> 00:02:38.360 like PTL and all of these things, but it was 00:02:38.360 --> 00:02:41.180 supposed to be just a temporary thing while Jim 00:02:41.180 --> 00:02:44.439 Baker got his affairs affairs in order and came 00:02:44.439 --> 00:02:46.520 back to the ministry. And you got to understand, 00:02:46.780 --> 00:02:50.979 like my family was so loyal to Jim and Tammy 00:02:50.979 --> 00:02:54.060 Faye Baker, like watched it every day. My, again, 00:02:54.199 --> 00:02:57.180 my parents gave. thousands upon thousands, tens 00:02:57.180 --> 00:02:58.860 of thousands of dollars. If I, if I would have 00:02:58.860 --> 00:03:01.860 probably calculated all up to this ministry and 00:03:01.860 --> 00:03:04.099 you know, we'd go and vacation and it was kind 00:03:04.099 --> 00:03:08.159 of a cool deal. But Jerry comes and takes it 00:03:08.159 --> 00:03:11.159 over. And so when Jim comes back. Jerry's like, 00:03:11.159 --> 00:03:13.580 Oh, no, no, no, bro. This is mine now. Yeah. 00:03:13.819 --> 00:03:15.780 And like, I remember as a kid being like, Yo, 00:03:15.919 --> 00:03:19.020 Jerry is so snakey, man. Like, yo, he took his 00:03:19.020 --> 00:03:21.800 thing for real. And, you know, he began to like 00:03:21.800 --> 00:03:24.800 mold it into what we're starting to see the more 00:03:24.800 --> 00:03:27.379 the more majority that's really released or see 00:03:27.379 --> 00:03:29.800 that take a toe hold and really have a major 00:03:29.800 --> 00:03:32.439 influence on, you know, the political thing because 00:03:32.919 --> 00:03:35.360 And I'm sure it happened, but we just did not 00:03:35.360 --> 00:03:37.340 see that. I was also much younger, but we also 00:03:37.340 --> 00:03:40.000 just didn't see a direct line from politicians 00:03:40.000 --> 00:03:44.780 to preachers. You know, um, we just didn't even 00:03:44.780 --> 00:03:46.919 like presidents didn't really even talk about 00:03:46.919 --> 00:03:50.180 their faith, like who they follow. We just assumed 00:03:50.180 --> 00:03:53.099 by and large. Well, unless someone came out and 00:03:53.099 --> 00:03:56.139 said no, but those assumptions are a big part 00:03:56.139 --> 00:03:58.300 of the, you know, the long story here, right? 00:03:58.300 --> 00:04:00.280 The assumptions of the presidents are a certain 00:04:00.280 --> 00:04:03.479 way. And so they're, you know, anyway, I am not 00:04:03.479 --> 00:04:06.259 a fan of Falwell, not a fan of the Bakers, not 00:04:06.259 --> 00:04:08.879 a fan of, you know, swagging those guys. No. 00:04:09.300 --> 00:04:11.659 But what Jerry Falwell was saying in this clip 00:04:11.659 --> 00:04:14.840 is startling, right? He's saying that terrorists 00:04:14.840 --> 00:04:17.839 attacked the United States on 9 -11 because God 00:04:17.839 --> 00:04:22.180 was angry about pagans and homosexuals. I'm assuming 00:04:22.180 --> 00:04:24.180 that that's kind of the culture that he started 00:04:24.180 --> 00:04:26.899 bringing into PTL and into Europe. Yeah, it was, 00:04:26.899 --> 00:04:29.850 it was a lot. It went from like, you know, Jim 00:04:29.850 --> 00:04:33.529 and Tammy, who were really entertainers and very 00:04:33.529 --> 00:04:36.769 like warm and kind of like an opening loving, 00:04:36.769 --> 00:04:40.370 like, uh, aspect of Christianity. I remember, 00:04:40.529 --> 00:04:41.870 you know, again, I was young, but I actually 00:04:41.870 --> 00:04:45.329 enjoyed it a little bit because it felt like 00:04:45.329 --> 00:04:48.629 there was like an uplifting sense to it, you 00:04:48.629 --> 00:04:51.430 know? And then this group comes in and it's like, 00:04:52.409 --> 00:04:54.930 Absolute terror. It's fire and brimstone. It's 00:04:54.930 --> 00:04:57.250 the rapture. It's getting left behind. It's all 00:04:57.250 --> 00:04:59.170 of that shit. And see, like when I say left behind, 00:04:59.269 --> 00:05:00.629 I'm sure a lot of people immediately think of 00:05:00.629 --> 00:05:03.189 like the Kirk Cameron series. No, no, no, no, 00:05:03.430 --> 00:05:07.110 no. There was another one before that that was 00:05:07.110 --> 00:05:12.810 terrifying. Well, and people listen to, and they 00:05:12.810 --> 00:05:16.189 buy into that exact kind of fear and terror rhetoric. 00:05:16.509 --> 00:05:19.189 And that raises a really scary question, right? 00:05:19.529 --> 00:05:22.069 What happens when a people who believe that they 00:05:22.069 --> 00:05:25.769 are chosen by God begin to fear that they have 00:05:25.769 --> 00:05:28.689 failed in their mission to create a perfect society 00:05:28.689 --> 00:05:32.750 in his name? So I'm going to go ahead and say 00:05:32.750 --> 00:05:36.269 that it's not going to turn out well, um, like 00:05:36.430 --> 00:05:39.990 Like really, really not going to turn out well. 00:05:39.990 --> 00:05:42.250 I mean, particularly if Jerry Falwell is involved. 00:05:42.550 --> 00:05:45.399 I mean, he, he, this is, um. He is the man that 00:05:45.399 --> 00:05:47.079 like, and I feel like there's a lot of them that 00:05:47.079 --> 00:05:49.019 are like this, but this is someone who is a self 00:05:49.019 --> 00:05:51.540 -aggrandizing person. You know, they are so much 00:05:51.540 --> 00:05:53.579 more about them and it's so interesting because 00:05:53.579 --> 00:05:56.439 they represent a religion that is very much against 00:05:56.439 --> 00:05:58.980 idolatry. But like these people really put themselves 00:05:58.980 --> 00:06:01.699 on that pedestal. You know, I mean, when we look 00:06:01.699 --> 00:06:03.379 at like what's going on in the world today, we 00:06:03.379 --> 00:06:06.660 see the golden statue of Donald. We see some, 00:06:06.660 --> 00:06:09.959 you know, uh, parallels in the show, the boys, 00:06:10.259 --> 00:06:15.250 um, This is real stuff y 'all like this is like 00:06:15.250 --> 00:06:18.889 real thinking I mean while we see these these 00:06:18.889 --> 00:06:22.769 things these imageries and all the golden calf, 00:06:22.769 --> 00:06:27.629 you know metaphors Now like it was it was in 00:06:27.629 --> 00:06:30.689 existence It was just packaged in a very very 00:06:30.689 --> 00:06:33.370 different way these people the fall wells the 00:06:33.370 --> 00:06:35.470 trumps the you know All of these folks the Kenneth 00:06:35.470 --> 00:06:37.730 Copeland's they believe themselves to be part 00:06:37.730 --> 00:06:40.009 of what the Puritans would have called the elect, 00:06:40.410 --> 00:06:43.860 right? Yep. And Jerry was absolutely involved 00:06:43.860 --> 00:06:48.500 in that whole tradition of wondering about what 00:06:48.500 --> 00:06:50.939 happens if we fail, right? But he was only involved 00:06:50.939 --> 00:06:54.439 very late in a very long process. This kind of 00:06:54.439 --> 00:06:57.319 stuff borrows quite a bit from our good friends 00:06:57.319 --> 00:07:00.319 from the previous episode, the Puritans. Puritan 00:07:00.319 --> 00:07:04.560 covenant theology has a huge problem. If the 00:07:04.560 --> 00:07:08.180 covenant is successful, it's proof of God's favor, 00:07:08.600 --> 00:07:16.040 right? Yeah. Right. It is. But it, and you know, 00:07:17.079 --> 00:07:20.139 if it shows his favor as success, right? If the 00:07:20.139 --> 00:07:22.040 covenant successful in his favor, I mean, if 00:07:22.040 --> 00:07:26.500 it fails, I mean, you know, then what? Right. 00:07:26.620 --> 00:07:28.839 And I mean, so you start to see where this is 00:07:28.839 --> 00:07:32.060 going. And I mean, among people who believe in 00:07:32.060 --> 00:07:35.720 predestination and angry divine judgment, I mean, 00:07:35.839 --> 00:07:39.029 this gets dark. Very quickly. And I mean, just 00:07:39.029 --> 00:07:41.990 on a side note, I just finished watching Midnight 00:07:41.990 --> 00:07:44.470 Mass on Netflix. It's an old show. It's an old 00:07:44.470 --> 00:07:47.470 series, uh, that, that's, you know, been out 00:07:47.470 --> 00:07:49.430 for several years, but I just decided like to 00:07:49.430 --> 00:07:51.490 catch it, just to start watching it. And I mean, 00:07:52.029 --> 00:07:54.449 my God, the parallels to what we're talking about 00:07:54.449 --> 00:07:58.149 now, probably the Puritans, uh, some of the characters 00:07:58.149 --> 00:08:02.170 in that show. Um, and it's just a fascinating, 00:08:02.170 --> 00:08:05.949 um, depiction of like the difference between. 00:08:06.300 --> 00:08:11.360 I think like true Christians who are really just 00:08:11.360 --> 00:08:15.680 trying to spread a belief or, or a message, you 00:08:15.680 --> 00:08:18.980 know, and then the, the, the, not the heretics, 00:08:19.040 --> 00:08:22.519 but like the fanatics and how they can distort 00:08:22.519 --> 00:08:25.759 that so much that like they'll literally burn 00:08:25.759 --> 00:08:28.879 down the world around them. Right. And ironically, 00:08:28.879 --> 00:08:31.180 uh, in that show, they're Catholics, but, uh, 00:08:31.180 --> 00:08:34.220 they, they do have a very puritanical feel up 00:08:34.220 --> 00:08:37.490 there in that Island. It really is. Yeah, it 00:08:37.490 --> 00:08:39.429 is. I was, I finished it today and I was just 00:08:39.429 --> 00:08:43.269 like, wow, that was amazing. If you like vampires 00:08:43.269 --> 00:08:45.970 too, by the way, it's amazing. Right. But yeah, 00:08:45.970 --> 00:08:48.710 man, this is all really, really dark. Uh, John 00:08:48.710 --> 00:08:51.549 said it himself. If you recall back to our previous 00:08:51.549 --> 00:08:55.110 episode, John Winthrop said, if we cause him 00:08:55.110 --> 00:08:58.110 to withdraw his present help from us, we shall 00:08:58.110 --> 00:09:01.549 be made a story and a byword through the world. 00:09:01.809 --> 00:09:05.419 Right. So in other words, We're the example, 00:09:05.840 --> 00:09:09.279 so don't fuck this up or we go down and we take 00:09:09.279 --> 00:09:33.100 the whole world with us. If there was ever any 00:09:33.100 --> 00:09:35.480 peace and harmony within the Puritan experiment 00:09:35.480 --> 00:09:39.100 in New England, it did not last long. The way 00:09:39.100 --> 00:09:42.919 they set up their society sort of prevented that, 00:09:43.039 --> 00:09:46.200 right? It was, by our standards anyway, particularly 00:09:46.200 --> 00:09:51.289 intense in its civic expectations. A lot of that 00:09:51.289 --> 00:09:53.789 was based in the specific theology of a covenant 00:09:53.789 --> 00:09:57.570 of works, that adherence to moral law was a reflection 00:09:57.570 --> 00:10:00.370 of God's grace and proof of being one of the 00:10:00.370 --> 00:10:03.490 elect. So if you did things correctly, right, 00:10:03.690 --> 00:10:07.129 if you were publicly pious, if you knelt down 00:10:07.129 --> 00:10:08.429 and if you prayed the way you're supposed to 00:10:08.429 --> 00:10:11.230 and everybody could see this, this parishes a 00:10:11.230 --> 00:10:14.090 little bit, this is proof that you are one of 00:10:14.090 --> 00:10:18.340 the elect. Church membership. in Puritan society 00:10:18.340 --> 00:10:21.799 was an absolute requirement for political participation 00:10:21.799 --> 00:10:24.860 and to be a full member of the church you had 00:10:24.860 --> 00:10:28.000 to be what was known as a visible saint. This 00:10:28.000 --> 00:10:30.639 meant you were an upstanding male member who 00:10:30.639 --> 00:10:34.220 could prove that you had had a conversion experience. 00:10:36.059 --> 00:10:38.100 Ministers who could prove this though were not 00:10:38.100 --> 00:10:42.759 permitted to hold office. There was a separation 00:10:42.759 --> 00:10:46.320 between the pulpit and politics, but it was more 00:10:46.320 --> 00:10:49.399 about preventing ministers from gaining personally 00:10:49.399 --> 00:10:51.919 through political influence than it was about 00:10:51.919 --> 00:10:54.340 separation of church and state. Right. Well, 00:10:54.460 --> 00:10:56.919 I think also too, there is, you know, without 00:10:56.919 --> 00:10:58.740 it being said, if you read between the lines, 00:10:59.100 --> 00:11:01.720 at least the people then that were trying to 00:11:01.720 --> 00:11:04.860 put the laws in place, realize that if ministers 00:11:04.860 --> 00:11:09.159 also had. political office, held political office, 00:11:09.580 --> 00:11:12.259 the amount of power they would have over the 00:11:12.259 --> 00:11:15.580 public or whoever were the congregants or whatever 00:11:15.580 --> 00:11:20.240 could be a problem. I mean, not only could it 00:11:20.240 --> 00:11:22.120 be like, you know, open up opportunities for 00:11:22.120 --> 00:11:25.700 corruption and, and, you know, um, making themselves, 00:11:25.700 --> 00:11:28.710 you know, richer at the hands of the people. 00:11:28.850 --> 00:11:30.610 I mean, also, as you think about like the uprisings 00:11:30.610 --> 00:11:32.789 that could occur, if they didn't, if they didn't 00:11:32.789 --> 00:11:34.909 like the way that things were starting to roll 00:11:34.909 --> 00:11:36.570 down, they'd just be like, yeah, we're taking 00:11:36.570 --> 00:11:39.610 up arms or we're defending our beliefs or our 00:11:39.610 --> 00:11:43.330 way of life against this incoming threat. It 00:11:43.330 --> 00:11:46.389 was definitely a good, uh, good idea to keep 00:11:46.389 --> 00:11:50.289 the pulp from, you know, um, But the pulpit had 00:11:50.289 --> 00:11:53.070 an awful lot of influence on politics, even though 00:11:53.070 --> 00:11:56.250 ministers themselves could not be politicians, 00:11:56.309 --> 00:12:00.049 could not be in government. Now, by the 1660s, 00:12:00.049 --> 00:12:02.450 about 30 years after they've settled in Massachusetts, 00:12:02.990 --> 00:12:06.190 something called the halfway covenant starts 00:12:06.190 --> 00:12:09.350 to be allowed in society, which allows for partial 00:12:09.350 --> 00:12:12.710 church membership for those who could not prove 00:12:12.710 --> 00:12:16.610 a conversion experience. But these... Folks were 00:12:16.610 --> 00:12:18.990 not permitted to partake of communion and they 00:12:18.990 --> 00:12:20.850 were not permitted to vote. So they're second 00:12:20.850 --> 00:12:24.250 -class citizens at best in Puritan society. This 00:12:24.250 --> 00:12:26.929 was all really an effort to increase church attendance, 00:12:26.990 --> 00:12:30.129 get more people in the door for churches. Um, 00:12:30.690 --> 00:12:34.429 but it causes a tiered sort of hierarchical society 00:12:34.429 --> 00:12:37.289 where some people, including some men, now women 00:12:37.289 --> 00:12:39.070 are always left out of this. We'll get into all 00:12:39.070 --> 00:12:41.590 of this as we go. Yeah, of course, of course. 00:12:41.990 --> 00:12:44.250 Well, I'm just going to quote a famous lyric. 00:12:44.839 --> 00:12:48.279 There's no such thing as halfway crooks. Scared 00:12:48.279 --> 00:12:50.179 to death and scared to look. I mean, like there's 00:12:50.179 --> 00:12:53.179 no halfway covenant. Come on, man. I mean, like 00:12:53.179 --> 00:12:57.000 they like, and it's crazy that like the people 00:12:57.000 --> 00:12:59.279 who were part of that couldn't, couldn't see 00:12:59.279 --> 00:13:01.100 through it. I mean, and I'm sure some did, but 00:13:01.100 --> 00:13:03.419 I'm sure like the also to probably just the want 00:13:03.419 --> 00:13:06.480 of like, to be a part of something like that. 00:13:06.720 --> 00:13:09.840 Um, but like, if you're not able to take like 00:13:09.840 --> 00:13:13.039 partake of communion, I mean, that already negates. 00:13:13.340 --> 00:13:16.379 A lot of things, you know, in that faith and 00:13:16.379 --> 00:13:20.559 a lot into it to a lot of voting, you know. Oh, 00:13:20.559 --> 00:13:23.600 yeah. Well, they're they're intrinsically tight. 00:13:23.659 --> 00:13:26.500 I would say a lot of the very strict Puritans 00:13:26.500 --> 00:13:31.559 to looked on the halfway Covenanters as lesser 00:13:31.559 --> 00:13:34.639 than they're there. Yeah, of course. They're 00:13:34.639 --> 00:13:36.559 not taking me. So there's something wrong with 00:13:36.559 --> 00:13:38.720 them. And of course, when the upper class is 00:13:38.860 --> 00:13:41.340 looking at the other class like that, then there's 00:13:41.340 --> 00:13:44.179 the reverse backlash. I mean, it's, there's divisions 00:13:44.179 --> 00:13:47.460 in the society, obviously based on faith itself. 00:13:48.179 --> 00:13:51.580 There's an excellent scene in midnight mass when 00:13:51.580 --> 00:13:53.759 they've got all the people who've been converted 00:13:53.759 --> 00:13:56.759 to, to vampires and they're standing outside 00:13:56.759 --> 00:14:00.759 of their new like Haven and the, the lead late, 00:14:00.919 --> 00:14:04.750 there's a lady named Bev Beverly. Um, She sees 00:14:04.750 --> 00:14:06.889 one guy and she calls him out like, Hey, you've 00:14:06.889 --> 00:14:09.549 never taken communion your entire life, but this 00:14:09.549 --> 00:14:13.169 guy gets turned by another like vampire who had 00:14:13.169 --> 00:14:15.289 been taking communion, whatever, not going to 00:14:15.289 --> 00:14:17.570 get too far into that part of it. But nonetheless, 00:14:17.909 --> 00:14:20.590 she literally tells this guy who is now a vampire 00:14:20.590 --> 00:14:23.169 because he was bitten on the neck, killed, and 00:14:23.169 --> 00:14:25.889 then revived through a vampire's blood that you're 00:14:25.889 --> 00:14:28.649 not worthy to come into the sanctuary with us. 00:14:28.750 --> 00:14:32.129 Like you must be taken away. Like someone who 00:14:32.129 --> 00:14:36.740 was. Converted quote unquote, you know, oh my 00:14:36.740 --> 00:14:40.200 god converted by the blood Jesus Christ the meta. 00:14:40.200 --> 00:14:47.539 Oh Holy shit. Yeah, it's deep It's so good and 00:14:47.539 --> 00:14:50.299 it has a lot of parallels to to exactly what 00:14:50.299 --> 00:14:53.159 you're talking about, right? Okay, this looking 00:14:53.159 --> 00:14:55.940 on people who are not quite the same because 00:14:55.940 --> 00:14:58.259 they haven't been doing one part of the ritual 00:14:58.259 --> 00:15:01.840 This is a lot of the reason why the Reformation 00:15:01.840 --> 00:15:04.240 had happened in the in Europe in the 16th century 00:15:04.240 --> 00:15:06.259 in the first place was because of this kind of 00:15:06.259 --> 00:15:08.860 view Here we now have Puritans doing the same 00:15:08.860 --> 00:15:11.700 thing to one another in society We'll come back 00:15:11.700 --> 00:15:13.779 to that the halfway covenant. You'll see where 00:15:13.779 --> 00:15:17.820 this sort of plays into a lot of this. Now remember 00:15:17.820 --> 00:15:20.340 in our last episode we said that the Puritans 00:15:20.340 --> 00:15:24.779 believed strongly, devoutly, that religious uniformity 00:15:24.779 --> 00:15:28.139 was the key to a healthy society, right? Right. 00:15:28.320 --> 00:15:31.419 So there's got to be some tests for this uniformity. 00:15:31.460 --> 00:15:34.879 You've got to make sure you scrutinize and separate 00:15:34.879 --> 00:15:38.740 the wheat from the chaff, so to speak. So that 00:15:38.740 --> 00:15:41.769 conversion testimony, that's a big one. You had 00:15:41.769 --> 00:15:44.490 to be able to provide an emotional account, not 00:15:44.490 --> 00:15:47.029 just, oh yeah, I converted. You gotta be able 00:15:47.029 --> 00:15:50.190 to like, yes, I fell on my knees, Jesus, and 00:15:50.190 --> 00:15:53.590 well, serious kind of an emotional account of 00:15:53.590 --> 00:15:56.870 your reception of God's grace. That is accepted 00:15:56.870 --> 00:16:00.629 as proof that you are of the membership of the 00:16:00.629 --> 00:16:03.230 church, right? Then there's the official oaths 00:16:03.230 --> 00:16:06.769 of loyalty. Government officials had to swear 00:16:06.769 --> 00:16:10.529 to adhere to Christian values, not. Now, let 00:16:10.529 --> 00:16:14.309 me be very clear, not the teachings of Jesus, 00:16:14.970 --> 00:16:17.730 Christian values as they existed by the 17th 00:16:17.730 --> 00:16:21.629 century, and they also had to maintain an impeccable 00:16:21.629 --> 00:16:23.769 moral character. They couldn't be adulterers, 00:16:23.889 --> 00:16:26.029 they couldn't steal, they couldn't lie, they 00:16:26.029 --> 00:16:28.730 had to be, you know, upstanding citizens, right? 00:16:29.370 --> 00:16:33.029 There were laws to regulate what that morality 00:16:33.029 --> 00:16:36.840 looked like. They really are sort of a precursor 00:16:36.840 --> 00:16:39.779 to what we call today's blue laws, right? Religious 00:16:39.779 --> 00:16:44.379 inspired laws, such as strict enforcement of 00:16:44.379 --> 00:16:48.460 the Sabbath. No working, no traveling, no public 00:16:48.460 --> 00:16:51.700 displays of affection. None of that in Puritan 00:16:51.700 --> 00:16:55.139 society, especially on the Sabbath. You had to 00:16:55.139 --> 00:16:57.679 attend church, mandatory church attendance. And 00:16:57.679 --> 00:16:59.539 this is part of where the halfway covenant comes 00:16:59.539 --> 00:17:02.399 in. If you don't go to church, you're fined for 00:17:02.399 --> 00:17:05.460 it. Sure. That's all well and good, but like, 00:17:05.339 --> 00:17:10.960 Doesn't a pastor work when he preaches at church 00:17:10.960 --> 00:17:13.420 on the Sabbath and then don't also the congruence 00:17:13.420 --> 00:17:16.339 have to travel to the church from their places 00:17:16.339 --> 00:17:21.059 of. Home places of home. Um, and then public 00:17:21.059 --> 00:17:23.599 displays of affection. I mean, like they touch 00:17:23.599 --> 00:17:25.960 each other's hands at the very least, nevermind 00:17:25.960 --> 00:17:30.519 like hugging in a church. Um, so like, like their 00:17:30.519 --> 00:17:34.250 own rules negate, like the dumb. But as long 00:17:34.250 --> 00:17:36.430 as you're doing it for Jesus, right? As long 00:17:36.430 --> 00:17:41.329 as, you know, but, um, Oh God, yes. Prohibition 00:17:41.329 --> 00:17:44.650 of pleasure in Puritan society is part of these 00:17:44.650 --> 00:17:48.069 laws that regulate morality. Now this means no 00:17:48.069 --> 00:17:50.910 theater. You're not taking in any kind of entertainment 00:17:50.910 --> 00:17:53.109 from theater, from plays or any of that stuff. 00:17:53.450 --> 00:17:56.869 No music, no dancing, no holiday frivolity. They 00:17:56.869 --> 00:17:58.990 don't celebrate Christmas. They don't celebrate 00:17:58.990 --> 00:18:01.329 any of the high holy days and the ways that people 00:18:01.329 --> 00:18:05.769 in Europe had been sort of accustomed. Sexuality 00:18:05.769 --> 00:18:09.029 was tightly regulated within the confines of 00:18:09.029 --> 00:18:13.369 marriage and was expressed as a means of procreation. 00:18:13.569 --> 00:18:15.710 Now, within the confines of marriage, sexuality 00:18:15.710 --> 00:18:18.309 was allowed to be pleasurable in Puritan society, 00:18:18.849 --> 00:18:23.690 but it was also for making to babies and adultery, 00:18:23.809 --> 00:18:27.410 if you recall the scarlet letter, right? Adultery 00:18:27.410 --> 00:18:29.670 was something that was going to be made highly 00:18:29.670 --> 00:18:31.650 visible so that you could atone for your sins 00:18:31.650 --> 00:18:35.809 by being sort of ridiculed in society. They had 00:18:35.809 --> 00:18:38.529 dress and behavior codes. They regulated the 00:18:38.529 --> 00:18:40.750 length of people's hair, the style of dress they 00:18:40.750 --> 00:18:43.549 wore. Clothing was supposed to avoid any appearance 00:18:43.549 --> 00:18:46.890 of vanity, supposed to avoid tempting the opposite 00:18:46.890 --> 00:18:50.069 sex. So if the lady's skirts rose above the ankles, 00:18:50.170 --> 00:18:54.589 watch the hell out. Harsh fines and public punishments 00:18:54.589 --> 00:18:57.069 for drunkenness, for adultery, for profanity, 00:18:57.170 --> 00:19:03.799 no cursing. Censorship of dissent. indecent or 00:19:03.799 --> 00:19:08.019 immoral material was not allowed and the definitions 00:19:08.019 --> 00:19:10.839 of what was indecent and immoral are not at all 00:19:10.839 --> 00:19:13.200 what we might consider them to be today. I mean 00:19:13.200 --> 00:19:15.460 things that just suggested that people might 00:19:15.460 --> 00:19:17.200 look at each other across a room and it's like 00:19:17.200 --> 00:19:20.559 no that's too tempting. Right. They of course 00:19:20.559 --> 00:19:23.099 silence any religious practices or ideas that 00:19:23.099 --> 00:19:25.720 don't strictly align with their Puritan covenant 00:19:25.720 --> 00:19:28.779 and dissenters were often banished from the colony 00:19:28.779 --> 00:19:31.519 as we'll see here in just a moment. And then 00:19:31.519 --> 00:19:35.519 of course, things like blasphemy, heresy, witchcraft, 00:19:36.119 --> 00:19:39.640 specifically religious crimes. They were considered 00:19:39.640 --> 00:19:42.900 serious enough crimes against the state that 00:19:42.900 --> 00:19:46.980 they often came with death sentences. Well, you 00:19:46.980 --> 00:19:50.759 know that tracks, I mean, it's fascinating to 00:19:50.759 --> 00:19:53.839 me that we're talking about a time that was, 00:19:53.839 --> 00:19:58.059 I mean, centuries ago, but like, as you go down 00:19:58.059 --> 00:20:01.049 this checklist, I mean, I'm thinking of my experiences 00:20:01.049 --> 00:20:04.230 as a kid. I'm like, a lot of these like held 00:20:04.230 --> 00:20:08.890 true, you know, um, I mean, there's not very 00:20:08.890 --> 00:20:13.390 many of them, you know, that, that weren't, um, 00:20:13.490 --> 00:20:15.390 mandatory charge of attendance. Absolutely. If 00:20:15.390 --> 00:20:17.750 the doors are open, we had to be in it. I mean, 00:20:18.289 --> 00:20:20.799 prohibition of pleasure. Absolutely. I mean, 00:20:21.079 --> 00:20:23.380 I had to have all, I had to hide all my music. 00:20:23.680 --> 00:20:26.400 You know, we didn't do anything that was regarded 00:20:26.400 --> 00:20:30.599 as like fun outside of the church dress codes. 00:20:31.140 --> 00:20:35.059 Yep. Blasphemy blasphemy heresy, you know, witchcraft. 00:20:35.200 --> 00:20:37.059 Oh my God. Forget about it. And then add the 00:20:37.059 --> 00:20:39.119 sense of satanic panic into that. I mean, it 00:20:39.119 --> 00:20:41.430 was just a Well, and this is one of the things 00:20:41.430 --> 00:20:43.849 that you and I did have in common in our experiences, 00:20:44.029 --> 00:20:46.369 right? You with the evangelical and I with the 00:20:46.369 --> 00:20:49.029 liturgical, we still sort of experience the same 00:20:49.029 --> 00:20:53.130 kind of morality purity shit. Now, yours was 00:20:53.130 --> 00:20:55.769 more extreme, as I recall, until you were, I 00:20:55.769 --> 00:20:57.829 think, a teenager, you weren't allowed to celebrate 00:20:57.829 --> 00:21:01.670 Halloween, if I remember. Yep. Yeah. So yours 00:21:01.670 --> 00:21:03.250 was more extreme than mine was, but we still 00:21:03.250 --> 00:21:06.789 had that, you know, no, no look at you had to, 00:21:06.789 --> 00:21:08.450 you had to be upstanding. You had to look like 00:21:08.450 --> 00:21:10.430 a good person in my churches. You had to have 00:21:10.430 --> 00:21:12.430 your hands together when you were praying. You 00:21:12.430 --> 00:21:14.710 had to be on your knees at the right time. If 00:21:14.710 --> 00:21:16.309 you weren't, if you were sitting down, if you 00:21:16.309 --> 00:21:18.490 even leaned your butt back against the pew, because 00:21:18.490 --> 00:21:21.769 kneeling is uncomfortable, you know, you weren't 00:21:21.769 --> 00:21:24.250 doing it right. So, I mean, this is a lot of 00:21:24.250 --> 00:21:27.809 this is leftover, right? Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I 00:21:27.809 --> 00:21:31.250 mean, you know, latent to you know, the nineties 00:21:31.250 --> 00:21:33.230 and early two thousands is, you know, from what 00:21:33.230 --> 00:21:36.829 I can remember. Then it just like church changed. 00:21:37.650 --> 00:21:42.670 It seemed like the, you know, the tolerance levels 00:21:42.670 --> 00:21:47.589 increased a little bit. Um, yeah, it was, it 00:21:47.589 --> 00:21:51.210 was fascinating to watch halfway covenant, halfway 00:21:51.210 --> 00:21:54.349 covenant, man. Yeah. I mean, it makes a lot of 00:21:54.349 --> 00:21:57.230 sense. Cause like, I was just like, this would 00:21:57.230 --> 00:22:02.000 have never flown when I was You know, a kid and 00:22:02.000 --> 00:22:04.880 they wanted people in the door. Yeah, I get it, 00:22:04.960 --> 00:22:06.819 man. And I mean, you kind of, you're, you're 00:22:06.819 --> 00:22:09.119 probably seeing some of that now, cause I mean, 00:22:09.579 --> 00:22:13.000 there's a big push for deconstruction and a faith 00:22:13.000 --> 00:22:15.240 and you know, people just, I think have had it. 00:22:15.240 --> 00:22:17.140 And I think a lot of people are blaming, you 00:22:17.140 --> 00:22:19.380 know, religion for a lot of the issues that are 00:22:19.380 --> 00:22:22.220 going on in the world today. I mean, I certainly 00:22:22.220 --> 00:22:25.099 am at least to some extent. Yeah. Yeah. Kind 00:22:25.099 --> 00:22:28.759 of hard not to. Now all of this rigorous rigidity 00:22:28.759 --> 00:22:31.700 in Puritan society is naturally going to invite 00:22:31.700 --> 00:22:34.460 pushback, right? And it actually did so pretty 00:22:34.460 --> 00:22:39.140 early on Within about half a decade people were 00:22:39.140 --> 00:22:41.319 beginning to speak out against what they saw 00:22:41.319 --> 00:22:44.940 as a very dangerous tradition of intertwining 00:22:44.940 --> 00:22:48.369 religion with authority cracks appeared in the 00:22:48.369 --> 00:22:51.009 foundation of the Covenant, so to speak, and 00:22:51.009 --> 00:22:54.210 they spread pretty quickly. And ironically, such 00:22:54.210 --> 00:22:56.769 critiques of Puritan authority are some of the 00:22:56.769 --> 00:22:59.789 earliest arguments for actual religious liberty 00:22:59.789 --> 00:23:02.769 in the colonies. Remember, religious liberty 00:23:02.769 --> 00:23:05.009 being what the Puritans had pushed for, but what 00:23:05.009 --> 00:23:06.690 they were really looking for was the freedom 00:23:06.690 --> 00:23:10.049 to create a strictly religious society. We're 00:23:10.049 --> 00:23:12.369 going to see people within Puritan society pushing 00:23:12.369 --> 00:23:18.339 for something else. Roger Williams. was a minister 00:23:18.339 --> 00:23:23.039 who arrived in 1631 to Massachusetts Bay. He 00:23:23.039 --> 00:23:26.720 began to argue early on that religious matters 00:23:26.720 --> 00:23:29.859 should be separate from civil authority. Now, 00:23:30.019 --> 00:23:32.700 Roger Williams was a good friend of John Winthrop, 00:23:32.880 --> 00:23:35.980 who was the governor of the colony, and he's 00:23:35.980 --> 00:23:39.829 now pushing back at his friend, right? Religious 00:23:39.829 --> 00:23:42.910 matters separated from civil authorities, specifically 00:23:42.910 --> 00:23:46.509 regarding things like forced worship and coercive 00:23:46.509 --> 00:23:49.309 morality. If you're really forcing people into 00:23:49.309 --> 00:23:53.190 the door, are they really faithful, right? He 00:23:53.190 --> 00:23:55.150 begins to ask these questions that are considered 00:23:55.150 --> 00:23:57.190 a little bit like, oh, what are you doing here, 00:23:57.369 --> 00:24:02.069 guy? He argued that a man's conscience was not 00:24:02.069 --> 00:24:04.650 the business of civil magistrates. This was between 00:24:04.650 --> 00:24:09.049 him and God, right? He also advocated, this is... 00:24:08.940 --> 00:24:11.759 where he probably pisses the most people off, 00:24:12.559 --> 00:24:15.819 advocated for fair treatment of neighboring indigenous 00:24:15.819 --> 00:24:19.200 people, arguing that colonists should purchase 00:24:19.200 --> 00:24:22.779 the kingdom rather than just seizing it, which 00:24:22.779 --> 00:24:25.259 had been the sort of tradition up to this point. 00:24:25.460 --> 00:24:28.519 Yeah, he went too far. So yeah, well, he did, 00:24:28.519 --> 00:24:31.359 because in 1635, despite his friendship with 00:24:31.359 --> 00:24:34.000 John Winthrop, who probably kept him from being 00:24:34.000 --> 00:24:37.299 executed, he was banished from Massachusetts 00:24:37.299 --> 00:24:43.880 Bay. Yep, that tracks now Roger Williams Sort 00:24:43.880 --> 00:24:46.559 of has a dual memory in American history. He's 00:24:46.559 --> 00:24:49.700 often regarded as something of a hero particularly 00:24:49.700 --> 00:24:53.099 in Rhode Island because when he was banished 00:24:53.099 --> 00:24:55.240 from Massachusetts, he went into the wilderness 00:24:55.240 --> 00:24:58.460 with five exiled companions and they founded 00:24:58.460 --> 00:25:01.380 land, or they founded a new settlement on land 00:25:01.380 --> 00:25:03.940 that they had purchased fairly from the Narragansett 00:25:03.940 --> 00:25:07.319 people. They called this settlement Providence 00:25:07.319 --> 00:25:09.140 and it was the first of a set of settlements 00:25:09.140 --> 00:25:12.799 that became the colony of Rhode Island. With 00:25:12.799 --> 00:25:15.980 the help of the Narragansett and the nearby Wampanoag, 00:25:16.039 --> 00:25:18.779 who the Pilgrims had interacted with, the exiles 00:25:18.779 --> 00:25:21.869 in Providence survived that first winter Taylor's 00:25:21.869 --> 00:25:24.690 oldest time, right? And the colony began to thrive. 00:25:25.170 --> 00:25:27.509 Well, I think there's a story. I think there's 00:25:27.509 --> 00:25:31.089 a story to be taken from that. Um, the, the group, 00:25:31.109 --> 00:25:33.470 the, what was it? Six. So it'd be six total, 00:25:33.630 --> 00:25:36.470 right? Him and five exiled people, you know, 00:25:36.470 --> 00:25:40.329 in this foreign land, uh, no support whatsoever. 00:25:40.910 --> 00:25:45.589 Go here. Interact fairly with this group of people 00:25:45.589 --> 00:25:48.289 and this group of people takes care of them through 00:25:48.289 --> 00:25:51.160 the winter. that they would not have survived 00:25:51.160 --> 00:25:54.440 without that help. And it gets better, right? 00:25:54.480 --> 00:25:58.160 Or at least it sounds better. The Charter for 00:25:58.160 --> 00:26:00.140 the Colony of Rhode Island when it was issued 00:26:00.140 --> 00:26:03.980 by the Crown established and enshrined freedom 00:26:03.980 --> 00:26:07.240 of worship, not religious freedom, freedom of 00:26:07.240 --> 00:26:09.240 worship, a little bit difficult, a little bit 00:26:09.240 --> 00:26:12.819 of nuance, right? And equal civil rights for 00:26:12.819 --> 00:26:19.299 all faiths. Roger Williams and some of his companions 00:26:19.299 --> 00:26:22.799 established a church there in Rhode Island that 00:26:22.799 --> 00:26:25.480 some actually consider to be the first of the 00:26:25.480 --> 00:26:29.319 Baptist churches in America. Now, don't get too 00:26:29.319 --> 00:26:31.660 hung up on Baptists yet because our experience 00:26:31.660 --> 00:26:34.660 with Baptists is Southern Baptists and those 00:26:34.660 --> 00:26:37.259 folks have shifted way to the other side from 00:26:37.259 --> 00:26:39.880 the Roger Williams folks. Yeah, a little bit. 00:26:39.980 --> 00:26:43.400 A little bit. They want government and religion 00:26:43.400 --> 00:26:47.279 to be the same. He's treated as a hero because 00:26:47.279 --> 00:26:48.960 of some of these things in American history, 00:26:49.000 --> 00:26:52.279 but he's also an obvious example of the instability 00:26:52.279 --> 00:26:56.289 of the Puritan experiment. Right. This was something 00:26:56.289 --> 00:26:59.230 that the Puritans themselves believed pointed 00:26:59.230 --> 00:27:02.170 to corruption, whether it was from inside or 00:27:02.170 --> 00:27:05.390 outside and to evidence of their missteps already 00:27:05.390 --> 00:27:07.930 in the new world. If Roger Williams has broken 00:27:07.930 --> 00:27:10.069 with us and gone and done something completely 00:27:10.069 --> 00:27:12.910 new off in the wilderness, then there's something 00:27:12.910 --> 00:27:16.089 we're not doing right. Damn it. Well, it's just 00:27:16.089 --> 00:27:18.650 interesting. I'm sure like people were absolutely 00:27:18.650 --> 00:27:22.750 clutching their pearls and. burning people at 00:27:22.750 --> 00:27:25.029 the stakes or whatever it is that they did at 00:27:25.029 --> 00:27:28.069 the time. Because I mean, remember, you know, 00:27:28.089 --> 00:27:31.029 when they came off this boat, John Winthrop, 00:27:31.089 --> 00:27:37.049 you know, was like, y 'all, we either do it or 00:27:37.049 --> 00:27:39.410 like, this is, this is, or, or like we're going 00:27:39.410 --> 00:27:42.230 to hell in a hand basket, like straight up, no 00:27:42.230 --> 00:27:45.670 jokes. Like we get one chance. It's like, you 00:27:45.670 --> 00:27:47.990 get one chance to make a first impression. And 00:27:47.990 --> 00:27:50.259 I mean, like, Here it is. Oh, this is not a good 00:27:50.259 --> 00:27:52.259 look for us. I mean, like we've got this other 00:27:52.259 --> 00:27:54.640 group that like we banished because they didn't 00:27:54.640 --> 00:27:57.240 align with our beliefs. Now they're flourishing. 00:27:57.619 --> 00:27:59.960 They've got a whole nother like settlement that's 00:27:59.960 --> 00:28:03.400 doing well. Like, wait a second. Like God can't 00:28:03.400 --> 00:28:05.880 be looking favorably upon them. There's no way. 00:28:05.940 --> 00:28:08.059 Like how, how can it be looking favorably upon 00:28:08.059 --> 00:28:11.519 us, but also them too. And like, we're all here, 00:28:11.660 --> 00:28:14.599 like barely surviving and all five of them are 00:28:14.599 --> 00:28:20.859 just like thriving. Yeah. Uh, and to be completely 00:28:20.859 --> 00:28:23.359 fair from the human perspective, not a religious 00:28:23.359 --> 00:28:26.440 one. If I were in Massachusetts watching that 00:28:26.440 --> 00:28:30.460 unfold, I'd have questions too. Oh yes. For sure. 00:28:30.579 --> 00:28:32.839 Because you thought the second day, like that 00:28:32.839 --> 00:28:36.279 was the, the exile was just like you said, it 00:28:36.279 --> 00:28:39.259 was way for John Winthrop to avoid having him 00:28:39.259 --> 00:28:43.599 publicly executed. That was execution just in 00:28:43.599 --> 00:28:47.119 a different name. Yeah. Yep. They knew by sending 00:28:47.119 --> 00:28:49.400 those six people into the wilderness at that 00:28:49.400 --> 00:28:52.640 time, they were going to die. They just were 00:28:52.640 --> 00:28:56.400 smart enough to interact with the people of the 00:28:56.400 --> 00:28:59.799 land that knew the land the best. You know, it's 00:28:59.799 --> 00:29:02.000 like, trust the subject matter experts, y 'all. 00:29:02.200 --> 00:29:04.619 Yeah. And, and treat them like they're people 00:29:04.619 --> 00:29:06.779 and Hey, you might actually get something out 00:29:06.779 --> 00:29:09.480 of this interaction that that's that's positive, 00:29:09.480 --> 00:29:13.269 right? Yeah. Somebody else who highlighted Puritan 00:29:13.269 --> 00:29:15.650 instability was Anne Hutchinson and this is a 00:29:15.650 --> 00:29:20.670 more tragic tale Yeah, you can bet your ass that 00:29:20.670 --> 00:29:23.069 her being a woman was a big part of the issue 00:29:23.069 --> 00:29:26.970 here As I said before, women were not qualified 00:29:26.970 --> 00:29:29.890 to be visible saints, and they were expected 00:29:29.890 --> 00:29:33.049 to more or less stay quiet and reverent, submitting 00:29:33.049 --> 00:29:36.210 to patriarchy. Something else we see throughout 00:29:36.210 --> 00:29:39.930 this sort of extreme Christian nationalists chosen 00:29:39.930 --> 00:29:42.630 this kind of thing, even up to the present day. 00:29:42.670 --> 00:29:45.450 Women are expected to be in their place, right? 00:29:47.309 --> 00:29:49.789 Anne was the daughter of an Anglican minister. 00:29:50.119 --> 00:29:53.259 who had himself been in trouble for criticizing 00:29:53.259 --> 00:29:56.640 church corruption. So she inherited as she grew 00:29:56.640 --> 00:29:59.799 up sort of a healthy spirit of skepticism toward 00:29:59.799 --> 00:30:03.160 religious authority in general. When she married 00:30:03.160 --> 00:30:06.420 though, she embraced Puritanism and migrated 00:30:06.420 --> 00:30:10.029 to Massachusetts in 1634. I'm going to say that 00:30:10.029 --> 00:30:13.869 that was probably a, a, a sole byproduct of the 00:30:13.869 --> 00:30:16.089 patriarchy at the time, because she married, 00:30:16.210 --> 00:30:19.410 I'm sure someone who had wealth or some status 00:30:19.410 --> 00:30:22.869 somewhere. And that to just kind of fold and 00:30:22.869 --> 00:30:25.769 have this be the happy life you do that. But 00:30:25.769 --> 00:30:29.190 I'm going to tell you guys right now, there is 00:30:29.190 --> 00:30:33.089 no more a skeptical quote unquote Christian than 00:30:33.089 --> 00:30:36.390 a PK, a preacher's kid, because I'm going to 00:30:36.390 --> 00:30:39.640 tell y 'all something right now. We see it all. 00:30:40.140 --> 00:30:43.380 We hear about it all. Y 'all think y 'all secrets 00:30:43.380 --> 00:30:48.619 are safe? Absolutely not. Absolutely not. And 00:30:48.619 --> 00:30:51.500 you're right, she is a Puritan out of marital 00:30:51.500 --> 00:30:54.460 bliss and not out of deep conviction, and she 00:30:54.460 --> 00:30:56.559 doesn't buy the Puritan line, hook, line, and 00:30:56.559 --> 00:31:02.420 sinker either. By 1636, she begins to hold informal 00:31:02.420 --> 00:31:06.079 gatherings in her home, which began as devotional 00:31:06.079 --> 00:31:10.200 meetings, which kind of okay, but evolved into 00:31:10.200 --> 00:31:13.019 intellectual conversations about theology, which 00:31:13.019 --> 00:31:18.490 was super not okay. Not okay. Worse of all, Anne 00:31:18.490 --> 00:31:21.170 wasn't just attracting other women, she was attracting 00:31:21.170 --> 00:31:26.130 Puritan men into these devotional meetings too, 00:31:26.170 --> 00:31:28.789 right? And she began to argue, and people began 00:31:28.789 --> 00:31:30.549 to listen and to buy into what she was saying 00:31:30.549 --> 00:31:33.809 in these meetings, that many Puritan ministers 00:31:33.809 --> 00:31:37.710 had drifted toward an overly legalistic emphasis 00:31:37.710 --> 00:31:41.849 on outward behavior as evidence of inward grace. 00:31:42.279 --> 00:31:45.759 This was all actually very Catholic, the way 00:31:45.759 --> 00:31:48.200 Anne perceived it, right? That's what Catholics 00:31:48.200 --> 00:31:52.720 do. And what she wanted to emphasize was the 00:31:52.720 --> 00:31:56.240 intimate closeness of God's grace itself. Now, 00:31:56.299 --> 00:31:59.400 that kind of thinking, combined with her being 00:31:59.400 --> 00:32:03.700 an upstart woman, irritated people like Mr. City 00:32:03.700 --> 00:32:07.210 on the Hill, Mr. Governor Winthrop, right? Right, 00:32:07.210 --> 00:32:09.009 right, right, right. Well, it's just interesting 00:32:09.009 --> 00:32:10.890 because it's like, you, you see it, you're watching 00:32:10.890 --> 00:32:13.250 this happen in real time or not in real time, 00:32:13.250 --> 00:32:17.390 but you're watching these two schools of thought 00:32:17.390 --> 00:32:25.029 where you have the. Outwardly, you know, um, 00:32:25.069 --> 00:32:28.069 we want it to be the, the pomp and circumstance, 00:32:28.190 --> 00:32:30.509 the show of it all. And then you have the others 00:32:30.509 --> 00:32:32.269 who are like, no, we want to just take this. 00:32:32.430 --> 00:32:36.009 into the quiet spaces, you know, where, you know, 00:32:36.009 --> 00:32:40.809 the reverence can be really held. And, you know, 00:32:40.890 --> 00:32:43.289 sadly the, what the, the ladder always seems 00:32:43.289 --> 00:32:46.569 to lose because we, I have seen that same, honestly, 00:32:46.569 --> 00:32:49.589 I have seen that same argument, you know, like 00:32:49.589 --> 00:32:51.730 the whole idea of Christians in the upper room 00:32:51.730 --> 00:32:53.630 and like the intercessory prayers and go into 00:32:53.630 --> 00:32:56.009 your prayer closet and spend hours a day in your 00:32:56.009 --> 00:32:59.109 prayer closet, which I have also on this, but 00:32:59.109 --> 00:33:03.220 nonetheless, I mean, um, There's this too cool 00:33:03.220 --> 00:33:04.779 school of thought in this, the other like, well, 00:33:04.779 --> 00:33:06.799 no, I've got to be like the outward appearance. 00:33:06.819 --> 00:33:09.200 And I've got to make myself, you know, like people 00:33:09.200 --> 00:33:11.819 have to just by seeing me know, you know, it's 00:33:11.819 --> 00:33:14.019 like they see God on me just by seeing the way 00:33:14.019 --> 00:33:19.160 I act in public. There was a Christmas card years 00:33:19.160 --> 00:33:23.279 ago that I saw. And it was a top -down picture 00:33:23.279 --> 00:33:26.880 of the New York city Christmas parade. and there 00:33:26.880 --> 00:33:29.359 are two angels at the top of, I think it was 00:33:29.359 --> 00:33:31.960 the Empire State Building, with trumpets, and 00:33:31.960 --> 00:33:34.420 one of them said to the other, with all of the 00:33:34.420 --> 00:33:39.059 hubbub below, do you think they can hear us with 00:33:39.059 --> 00:33:41.559 our triumphal message of Christ's birth, or whatever 00:33:41.559 --> 00:33:45.059 it was, right? I actually think of this kind 00:33:45.059 --> 00:33:47.710 of thing, Anne Hutchinson's idea that... you 00:33:47.710 --> 00:33:49.869 know, inward grace, God's, you know, intimate 00:33:49.869 --> 00:33:53.210 grace and all of that is more meaningful than 00:33:53.210 --> 00:33:55.369 the pomp and circumstance, the showiness. If 00:33:55.369 --> 00:33:57.690 you think back to the Bible, the Pharisees with 00:33:57.690 --> 00:34:03.170 their public devotion, if you're being loud enough, 00:34:03.470 --> 00:34:06.069 and let's say that there is an eternal Jesus 00:34:06.069 --> 00:34:08.150 who is speaking to you, doesn't the Bible say 00:34:08.150 --> 00:34:10.329 over and over again that God speaks in a still 00:34:10.329 --> 00:34:13.829 small voice? If you're loud and pomp and circumstance, 00:34:14.150 --> 00:34:17.530 how do you hear him? Right. Right. I don't know, 00:34:17.650 --> 00:34:20.050 man. And I've always wondered, I've always wondered 00:34:20.050 --> 00:34:25.230 about that. No. Um, so I mean, yeah, I guess 00:34:25.230 --> 00:34:28.530 that's a question of the ages, right? Yeah, exactly. 00:34:28.789 --> 00:34:32.389 Well, Anne Hutchinson was put on trial in 1637 00:34:32.389 --> 00:34:36.110 charged with sedition and contempt. Some even 00:34:36.110 --> 00:34:38.289 called her a witch, but they couldn't make that 00:34:38.289 --> 00:34:41.389 one stick. Yep. So he was banished from the colony, 00:34:41.610 --> 00:34:43.349 which as you said, was it, was it because she 00:34:43.349 --> 00:34:46.630 floated? Because you know the witches if you 00:34:46.630 --> 00:34:49.389 drown away is it if you float you're a witch 00:34:49.389 --> 00:34:51.210 and if you drown your dot Yeah, that's that's 00:34:51.210 --> 00:34:53.269 right. That makes sense. Cuz if you're if you 00:34:53.269 --> 00:34:54.550 float you're a witch That means we're gonna take 00:34:54.550 --> 00:34:56.329 you out of the water and kill you. But if you 00:34:56.329 --> 00:34:59.449 don't float you drown then it's like, oh She 00:34:59.449 --> 00:35:08.269 wasn't a witch but she's dead Um, I was, I was 00:35:08.269 --> 00:35:10.309 waiting for that to be one of the qualifiers 00:35:10.309 --> 00:35:12.389 earlier when we were talking about tests for 00:35:12.389 --> 00:35:16.309 uniformity of like, do they float or not? Uh, 00:35:16.590 --> 00:35:20.829 that, so the, if I'm not mistaken, she's a duck. 00:35:21.250 --> 00:35:24.389 No, I think the, the floating that I think that 00:35:24.389 --> 00:35:28.210 whole parody comes from Ben Franklin writing 00:35:28.210 --> 00:35:31.690 a satire about witch hunts. If I'm not mistaken, 00:35:31.989 --> 00:35:40.590 I thought it came from Monty Python. When Anne 00:35:40.590 --> 00:35:42.710 left the colony, she settled for a little time 00:35:42.710 --> 00:35:44.789 in Rhode Island with Roger Williams and others. 00:35:45.190 --> 00:35:47.469 She was actually instrumental in helping to establish 00:35:47.469 --> 00:35:49.670 the settlement of Portsmouth in Rhode Island. 00:35:50.590 --> 00:35:53.269 But after the death of her husband, she fled 00:35:53.269 --> 00:35:55.510 to New Netherland, the Dutch colony, which eventually 00:35:55.510 --> 00:35:58.949 became New York, to avoid Puritan influence. 00:35:59.329 --> 00:36:01.630 And tragically, her life ended during an attack 00:36:01.630 --> 00:36:18.369 by the Suwannee people, indigenous peoples. So 00:36:18.369 --> 00:36:23.949 yeah, so that's just, again, that tracks, um, 00:36:23.969 --> 00:36:26.489 you know, and just to kind of recap here, I mean, 00:36:26.570 --> 00:36:30.869 this society that came seeking freedom from religious 00:36:30.869 --> 00:36:34.130 control, pretty much rewrote the book on religious 00:36:34.130 --> 00:36:38.659 control. You know, and then exerted it, uh, exerted 00:36:38.659 --> 00:36:43.320 such, such a control that it starts to lead to 00:36:43.320 --> 00:36:46.780 the deaths of people, you know, because of the 00:36:46.780 --> 00:36:49.360 circumstances. Now I'm sure the argument would 00:36:49.360 --> 00:36:52.059 be made, well, no, we didn't kill anyone. We 00:36:52.059 --> 00:36:55.519 know, no, we never, God would not allow that. 00:36:55.619 --> 00:36:58.739 The guy would look so unfavorably on us, but 00:36:58.739 --> 00:37:02.179 the actions that they took, they knew well. They 00:37:02.179 --> 00:37:05.500 knew well in their heads that the actions that 00:37:05.500 --> 00:37:07.320 they took in the decisions that they made and 00:37:07.320 --> 00:37:09.500 the way that they treated these people would 00:37:09.500 --> 00:37:14.559 lead to their deaths. Yeah, that's and that's 00:37:14.559 --> 00:37:16.579 the intention. And I think that's more nefarious, 00:37:16.599 --> 00:37:20.219 man. I think that's more nefarious is that intention 00:37:20.219 --> 00:37:23.659 of being like, I'm too much of a coward to do 00:37:23.659 --> 00:37:26.570 it by my own hand. But I'm going to create a 00:37:26.570 --> 00:37:29.309 circumstance where, like, it will be, and it 00:37:29.309 --> 00:37:32.750 may be far worse than what I could, you know, 00:37:32.949 --> 00:37:36.389 build out. Think of our last episode when we 00:37:36.389 --> 00:37:38.190 were talking about the movie The Witch, right? 00:37:38.269 --> 00:37:40.809 And in the beginning of that movie, the family, 00:37:41.030 --> 00:37:43.849 the protagonist's family is cast out of their 00:37:43.849 --> 00:37:45.909 Puritan or Pilgrim society. I'm not sure which 00:37:45.909 --> 00:37:49.429 it was. I think it was Plymouth, so it would 00:37:49.429 --> 00:37:51.670 have been Pilgrims. Either way, Puritans cast 00:37:51.670 --> 00:37:54.269 these people out for some crime that's never 00:37:54.269 --> 00:37:58.670 fully explained to us. The message there is if 00:37:58.670 --> 00:38:02.010 this is the covenant, if this is the godly divine 00:38:02.010 --> 00:38:04.969 community, then we're casting you out of God's 00:38:04.969 --> 00:38:08.690 favor and into hell. Right. You know, so yes, 00:38:08.730 --> 00:38:10.429 there's no innocence there. They know exactly 00:38:10.429 --> 00:38:12.090 what this means. They just don't want to shed 00:38:12.090 --> 00:38:14.590 blood with their own hands for whatever reasons 00:38:14.590 --> 00:38:16.750 they decide, right? Well, I mean, that's how 00:38:16.750 --> 00:38:20.170 they get away with calling, um, was there Ann? 00:38:21.090 --> 00:38:22.550 Ann Hutchinson. Yep. Yeah. And that's how they 00:38:22.550 --> 00:38:24.630 get away with calling Ann Hutchinson's death 00:38:24.630 --> 00:38:28.230 a divine vengeance because it's like they, again, 00:38:28.309 --> 00:38:30.250 were too much cowards to do it by their own hands. 00:38:30.329 --> 00:38:32.230 They create a situation where they expect her 00:38:32.230 --> 00:38:35.119 to die. She survives. You know, which I mean, 00:38:35.260 --> 00:38:37.199 that's just a thumb in the eye to these people. 00:38:37.639 --> 00:38:39.280 You know, the whole idea of like turning the 00:38:39.280 --> 00:38:41.760 other cheek, which they don't do, but turning 00:38:41.760 --> 00:38:43.119 the other cheek is like, Hey, you just got, you 00:38:43.119 --> 00:38:44.460 just slapped the other cheek. I mean, that's 00:38:44.460 --> 00:38:46.940 what they felt like God was doing to them. So 00:38:46.940 --> 00:38:50.599 to hear that this lady dies, but whatever it 00:38:50.599 --> 00:38:53.340 means, I mean, she could have lived to an old, 00:38:53.420 --> 00:38:56.420 old age and just died of like natural causes. 00:38:56.500 --> 00:38:58.639 And they would have been like, divine vengeance 00:38:58.639 --> 00:39:03.079 has been told out. Thank you to the Lord. It 00:39:03.079 --> 00:39:05.659 sort of makes me think of the way Americans responded 00:39:05.659 --> 00:39:08.139 to the death of Osama bin Laden and it's not 00:39:08.139 --> 00:39:13.539 a parallel exactly right but this almost divine 00:39:13.539 --> 00:39:17.440 Ritualistic hunger for the death of an adversary 00:39:17.440 --> 00:39:20.940 that we immediately Reframe it into the context 00:39:20.940 --> 00:39:24.460 of well God has won God didn't win Barack Obama 00:39:24.460 --> 00:39:28.500 won right the military one That's right. God 00:39:28.500 --> 00:39:32.809 didn't win shit You know what God got? You know 00:39:32.809 --> 00:39:36.489 what God won? Another soul in heaven. Another 00:39:36.489 --> 00:39:40.289 soul, baby. And a Muslim wanted that anyway. 00:39:40.429 --> 00:39:43.670 Oh my God. Descent and other internal pressures 00:39:43.670 --> 00:39:46.190 are only part of the story here, right? This 00:39:46.190 --> 00:39:51.690 still has some things. We also have to consider 00:39:51.690 --> 00:39:54.710 the realities of what life in the 17th century 00:39:54.710 --> 00:39:58.130 in New England was like. And despite what their 00:39:58.199 --> 00:40:01.440 covenant promised them, the Puritans did not 00:40:01.440 --> 00:40:04.960 move into a pristine wilderness. No, not at all. 00:40:05.190 --> 00:40:08.889 There had been ancient and often very dense and 00:40:08.889 --> 00:40:11.949 complex indigenous societies in that region for 00:40:11.949 --> 00:40:14.590 generations, going back thousands and thousands 00:40:14.590 --> 00:40:18.070 of years before pilgrims and Puritans ever arrived. 00:40:18.690 --> 00:40:21.590 Peoples like the Wampanoag, the Narragans at 00:40:21.590 --> 00:40:25.010 the Mohegan, and the Pequot still moved within 00:40:25.010 --> 00:40:28.989 broad networks of trade and war by the 1630s. 00:40:30.119 --> 00:40:34.739 It was well known among the Puritans that disease 00:40:34.739 --> 00:40:37.519 had greatly reduced the numbers of indigenous 00:40:37.519 --> 00:40:41.019 peoples in the Americas beginning in 1492 and 00:40:41.019 --> 00:40:44.500 continuing into the 17th century. Many of the 00:40:44.500 --> 00:40:47.300 Puritan colonists interpreted disease and the 00:40:47.300 --> 00:40:49.860 resulting depopulation of indigenous societies 00:40:49.860 --> 00:40:53.639 as evidence that God was preparing the land for 00:40:53.639 --> 00:40:56.920 their arrival. And they now merely needed to 00:40:56.920 --> 00:40:58.980 finish the work once their settlement had been 00:40:58.980 --> 00:41:01.980 established. But I mean, that's a common narrative. 00:41:02.159 --> 00:41:04.059 I mean, it's a common narrative. Let's talk about 00:41:04.059 --> 00:41:07.820 it. I mean, AIDS, that was God's, like, vengeance 00:41:07.820 --> 00:41:12.539 on homosexuality. Katrina was God's vengeance 00:41:12.539 --> 00:41:16.219 on New Orleans and Louisiana and the sin and 00:41:16.219 --> 00:41:20.639 stuff that they got into. I mean, you know, that's 00:41:20.639 --> 00:41:25.210 just two examples of... countless examples that 00:41:25.210 --> 00:41:28.030 like we have heard that, Oh, that's just God's 00:41:28.030 --> 00:41:31.809 response to sin in an area or to, to a group 00:41:31.809 --> 00:41:35.090 of people or whatever. because we have told ourselves 00:41:35.090 --> 00:41:38.010 for now countless generations that the American 00:41:38.010 --> 00:41:41.590 people are one kind of pure and Christian and 00:41:41.590 --> 00:41:43.969 devoted way. And so anybody who's living in any 00:41:43.969 --> 00:41:47.409 kind of sin or outside that framework must be 00:41:47.409 --> 00:41:50.230 an aberration that God has to destroy. This is 00:41:50.230 --> 00:41:53.510 biblical stuff, right? Sodom and Gomorrah, Jericho, 00:41:53.710 --> 00:41:57.110 all of these kinds. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. David and 00:41:57.110 --> 00:41:59.250 Goliath. I mean, like, you know, honestly, I 00:41:59.250 --> 00:42:04.550 mean, it's the whole idea of defeating a a bigger 00:42:04.550 --> 00:42:07.789 than life enemy, whatever that is. Like, if you 00:42:07.789 --> 00:42:10.010 think about those, I mean, those situations that 00:42:10.010 --> 00:42:11.570 we talk, you know, that you just referenced, 00:42:11.710 --> 00:42:14.489 I mean, it's always like the underdog, you know, 00:42:14.590 --> 00:42:16.829 that doesn't stand a chance in hell. And then 00:42:16.829 --> 00:42:18.489 all of a sudden they come out victorious and 00:42:18.489 --> 00:42:22.269 do some crazy, like almost a miracle. Yeah. And 00:42:22.269 --> 00:42:24.230 then we're, we're plucky and we're courageous 00:42:24.230 --> 00:42:26.989 and we're a little bit crazy. And, you know, 00:42:27.289 --> 00:42:31.260 so Covenant ideology gets tied now to settlements 00:42:31.260 --> 00:42:35.179 specifically through this lens Puritans can compare 00:42:35.179 --> 00:42:38.980 themselves to the Israelites fleeing Egypt and 00:42:38.980 --> 00:42:42.300 entering into Canaan Which must be cleansed for 00:42:42.300 --> 00:42:44.920 the chosen and the Old Testament was not just 00:42:44.920 --> 00:42:47.039 a metaphor to these people. It was a template 00:42:47.039 --> 00:42:51.239 Yes, it was missionary efforts praying towns 00:42:51.239 --> 00:42:53.900 to convert and quote -unquote civilized natives, 00:42:53.900 --> 00:42:57.099 right? moving toward assimilation, moving toward 00:42:57.099 --> 00:43:00.280 land treaties. If natives refuse these efforts, 00:43:00.920 --> 00:43:03.800 colonists completely ignored indigenous sovereignty 00:43:03.800 --> 00:43:06.719 and simply seized land to expand the colony. 00:43:07.670 --> 00:43:11.150 Resistance was met with force, justified as holy 00:43:11.150 --> 00:43:14.750 war, akin to Joshua's assault on Jericho, claiming 00:43:14.750 --> 00:43:17.769 divine entitlement to the land. And this happened 00:43:17.769 --> 00:43:22.530 a lot, but in two major, major cases in colonial 00:43:22.530 --> 00:43:25.289 New England, right? The Pequot War, which essentially 00:43:25.289 --> 00:43:29.489 wiped out those people, ended the Pequot existence 00:43:29.489 --> 00:43:31.690 for all intents and purposes until the 20th century 00:43:31.690 --> 00:43:34.630 in New England. And then the larger, protected 00:43:34.630 --> 00:43:39.460 King Philip's War. Long story short about King 00:43:39.460 --> 00:43:42.880 Philip's war, the son of Massasoit of the Wampanoag 00:43:42.880 --> 00:43:45.119 did not share the same affinity for the English 00:43:45.119 --> 00:43:49.079 that his father did. And, um, his name was Matakomet, 00:43:49.079 --> 00:43:50.960 uh, but they called him, the English called him 00:43:50.960 --> 00:43:53.340 King Philip. So that's why it's called King Philip's 00:43:53.340 --> 00:43:57.579 war. Major, major, major colonial warfare that 00:43:57.579 --> 00:44:00.880 could have ended this Puritan experiment pretty 00:44:00.880 --> 00:44:04.840 quickly. Right? Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, you know, 00:44:04.840 --> 00:44:10.940 you combine. The idea that these people were 00:44:10.940 --> 00:44:14.659 given all those years ago when they got off the 00:44:14.659 --> 00:44:18.519 boat, that it's really on them to change, to 00:44:18.519 --> 00:44:22.239 basically conquer this world. You know, now you 00:44:22.239 --> 00:44:24.739 can find that with the idea of manifest destiny, 00:44:24.880 --> 00:44:28.079 which is coming from the legal side of things. 00:44:28.300 --> 00:44:29.820 I mean, like, yeah, of course these people were 00:44:29.820 --> 00:44:32.019 unstoppable. Of course they're going to go and 00:44:32.019 --> 00:44:35.929 just take land and seize it. And, you know, turn 00:44:35.929 --> 00:44:39.730 on the native Americans and the indigenous peoples. 00:44:39.909 --> 00:44:41.849 They're going to look at them as savages more 00:44:41.849 --> 00:44:45.090 so than anyone else because they have God on 00:44:45.090 --> 00:44:48.280 their side. And you mentioned Manifest Destiny. 00:44:48.360 --> 00:44:50.960 When that comes along in the expansion into the 00:44:50.960 --> 00:44:53.619 American West in the 19th century, that kind 00:44:53.619 --> 00:44:55.340 of language. Well, I mean, that kind of language 00:44:55.340 --> 00:44:57.179 is not weird to anybody. Everybody's like, oh, 00:44:57.239 --> 00:44:59.940 yep, this is who we are. We have this divinely 00:44:59.940 --> 00:45:02.159 inspired destiny to go and do all this. And we've 00:45:02.159 --> 00:45:04.599 been proving it since the Puritans in New England, 00:45:04.760 --> 00:45:07.780 right? Right. Tensions with natives contributed 00:45:07.780 --> 00:45:11.139 greatly to fears and paranoia among Puritans 00:45:11.139 --> 00:45:14.780 in that region. If you add in also the daily 00:45:14.780 --> 00:45:18.159 anxieties about nearby French Catholics and the 00:45:18.159 --> 00:45:21.260 nearly endless European wars for empire, all 00:45:21.260 --> 00:45:23.920 of which had colonial theaters with Native American 00:45:23.920 --> 00:45:26.800 rivalries and alliances, you can start to get 00:45:26.800 --> 00:45:29.420 a sense of how life beyond the community must 00:45:29.420 --> 00:45:32.780 have appeared to people. They believed themselves 00:45:32.780 --> 00:45:36.449 to be in a new Jerusalem. plopped right down 00:45:36.449 --> 00:45:40.210 in the middle of hell on earth. You know, and 00:45:40.210 --> 00:45:44.590 I bet that they blamed everybody but themselves. 00:45:44.710 --> 00:45:46.889 You know, I mean, it's like, it's a common theme, 00:45:46.889 --> 00:45:51.409 you know, just like Mr. Falwell. Um, so, I mean, 00:45:52.210 --> 00:45:55.530 was theology everything all the time? I mean, 00:45:55.690 --> 00:45:58.969 wasn't this a pretty economically beneficial? 00:45:59.050 --> 00:46:00.750 I mean, wasn't this whole thing economically 00:46:00.750 --> 00:46:03.510 beneficial too? I mean, and legitimizing for 00:46:03.510 --> 00:46:06.139 political power. Mean sure yeah, there was nothing 00:46:06.139 --> 00:46:08.199 wrong with seeing the colony thrive right that 00:46:08.199 --> 00:46:12.039 was proof of God's approval sure political leaders, 00:46:12.079 --> 00:46:14.380 and they believe themselves to be the elect, 00:46:14.380 --> 00:46:16.900 the ones who were predestined for heaven anyway. 00:46:17.679 --> 00:46:21.099 So it's worth thinking about it in those economic 00:46:21.099 --> 00:46:23.239 and political terms. But it's also worth noting 00:46:23.239 --> 00:46:26.159 that not every Englishman who lived in New England 00:46:26.159 --> 00:46:29.639 was a devout Puritan. Yeah, they may not have 00:46:29.639 --> 00:46:32.280 had full civil rights, but they were there, right? 00:46:32.480 --> 00:46:34.440 Remember the halfway covenant, right? You've 00:46:34.440 --> 00:46:38.119 got other people who are living within this covenant, 00:46:38.219 --> 00:46:41.880 but aren't fully on board with it. And for the 00:46:41.880 --> 00:46:46.079 Puritans, this is more than opportunity, right? 00:46:46.280 --> 00:46:48.420 This is destiny. We'll see this idea come up 00:46:48.420 --> 00:46:50.960 later in our story again, manifest destiny, things 00:46:50.960 --> 00:46:53.860 like that. But the halfway covenant is all about 00:46:53.860 --> 00:46:56.659 trying to protect what they believe they have 00:46:56.659 --> 00:46:59.519 done there. So the halfway covenant is seen as, 00:46:59.519 --> 00:47:02.699 you know, The Covenanters are the halfway Covenanters 00:47:02.699 --> 00:47:05.579 are second -class citizens But having them within 00:47:05.579 --> 00:47:08.239 the Covenant is an opportunity to expand and 00:47:08.239 --> 00:47:12.119 to create more power within the Covenant, right? 00:47:12.679 --> 00:47:14.500 Because we've got people like Roger Williams 00:47:14.500 --> 00:47:16.800 falling away because we got people like Anne 00:47:16.800 --> 00:47:19.739 Hutchinson Being destroyed by Indians because 00:47:19.739 --> 00:47:22.699 she dared to try and break our Covenant. This 00:47:22.699 --> 00:47:26.119 is the way These people are talking all the time. 00:47:26.199 --> 00:47:27.920 It's crazy. They go because all you're doing 00:47:27.920 --> 00:47:30.340 is diluting it Because if you're bringing these 00:47:30.340 --> 00:47:32.940 people in who are the halfway covenant, you know, 00:47:32.960 --> 00:47:36.300 who haven't done, don't do communion, can't vote, 00:47:36.300 --> 00:47:39.780 you know, or, I mean, not really, uh, considered 00:47:39.780 --> 00:47:42.980 part of the, you know, of the flock necessarily. 00:47:43.719 --> 00:47:50.039 Um, I mean, you're diluting the, the, the system 00:47:50.039 --> 00:47:52.360 you've put in place. That's like supposed to 00:47:52.360 --> 00:47:54.820 be holding all of these said that it's supposed 00:47:54.820 --> 00:47:59.049 to be holding them more high ground. Yeah. And, 00:47:59.049 --> 00:48:03.269 um, that dilution is going to bother people. 00:48:03.269 --> 00:48:05.809 Of course it is. To a point that it's going to 00:48:05.809 --> 00:48:07.909 get, well, I don't want to put the cart before 00:48:07.909 --> 00:48:09.869 the horse. Well, you're going to have, I feel 00:48:09.869 --> 00:48:11.409 like you're going to have two things happen. 00:48:11.530 --> 00:48:12.929 You're going to have religious zealots that are 00:48:12.929 --> 00:48:14.530 really going to come out hardcore and be like, 00:48:14.750 --> 00:48:17.309 Hey, absolutely not. It's this way or no way. 00:48:17.590 --> 00:48:19.989 It's not, you know, we're not halfway covenants. 00:48:20.050 --> 00:48:21.750 We're not halfway crooks. I mean, it's either 00:48:21.750 --> 00:48:23.650 all in or not. And then you're going to have 00:48:23.650 --> 00:48:25.369 the others who are like, well, you know what? 00:48:25.559 --> 00:48:28.099 Fuck that. I'm just leaving it all together. 00:48:28.480 --> 00:48:30.559 And you have people just leaving the faith, just 00:48:30.559 --> 00:48:32.639 being like, I'm, I have what no part of that 00:48:32.639 --> 00:48:34.760 is either all or nothing. And because we have 00:48:34.760 --> 00:48:37.440 this dilution of this faith and that's probably, 00:48:37.440 --> 00:48:40.380 again, it's the same people. It's the same exact 00:48:40.380 --> 00:48:42.900 people. And it seems like that's the two paths 00:48:42.900 --> 00:48:46.920 that you end up down either the like highly zealot, 00:48:46.960 --> 00:48:49.400 you know, we're going to pull out the sword for 00:48:49.400 --> 00:48:52.559 the Lord and kill all of the whatever, or the 00:48:52.559 --> 00:48:53.760 people who are just like, I'm done with this. 00:48:53.820 --> 00:48:59.340 I want no part of it. And we're gonna see that 00:48:59.340 --> 00:49:01.739 sooner than we think, right? Within 50 years 00:49:01.739 --> 00:49:04.280 of this experiment, things start to really unravel, 00:49:04.340 --> 00:49:08.179 as we'll come to. It would be a mistake, though, 00:49:08.280 --> 00:49:11.900 for us to try and do this only through a religious 00:49:11.900 --> 00:49:14.719 lens, because despite what they think in Puritan 00:49:14.719 --> 00:49:17.920 New England, there are so many other forces at 00:49:17.920 --> 00:49:21.849 work that are... Changing the way people see 00:49:21.849 --> 00:49:24.389 their themselves in their societies their societies 00:49:24.389 --> 00:49:26.210 place in the world all of that stuff, right? 00:49:26.650 --> 00:49:28.889 They think of themselves in biblical terms, but 00:49:28.889 --> 00:49:31.809 they're not biblical Jews when religion was all 00:49:31.809 --> 00:49:34.670 there was right as politics There's trade there's 00:49:34.670 --> 00:49:38.489 commerce and so we got to do a very very quick 00:49:38.489 --> 00:49:41.190 and dirty British history at this time just so 00:49:41.190 --> 00:49:43.750 that we sort of understand what else is happening 00:49:43.750 --> 00:49:47.440 and why these people are starting to sort of 00:49:47.440 --> 00:49:50.400 turn inward and surveil and police themselves 00:49:50.400 --> 00:49:53.440 with such extreme rigidity throughout this period. 00:49:53.920 --> 00:49:56.699 It's partially their religious beliefs. It's 00:49:56.699 --> 00:50:00.820 partially the world they're living in. The English 00:50:00.820 --> 00:50:06.760 in the 1650s went to war with themselves. They 00:50:06.760 --> 00:50:10.039 entered into a civil war period where people 00:50:10.039 --> 00:50:15.460 who were much more loyal to King Charles I went 00:50:15.460 --> 00:50:17.639 to war with people who are much more loyal to 00:50:17.639 --> 00:50:21.559 parliamentary law and order. This war resulted 00:50:21.559 --> 00:50:26.039 in the execution of the king, who, while being 00:50:26.039 --> 00:50:29.119 an Anglican, had started to flirt too closely 00:50:29.119 --> 00:50:32.260 with ideas related to Catholicism, turning off 00:50:32.260 --> 00:50:35.139 a lot of the Anglicans and Puritans within his 00:50:35.139 --> 00:50:38.800 kingdom. So his execution is met with, well, 00:50:38.820 --> 00:50:41.480 how do you think the Puritans responded to the 00:50:41.480 --> 00:50:45.349 news that Charles I had been executed? I hope 00:50:45.349 --> 00:50:48.429 they burned it all down, but they probably celebrated 00:50:48.429 --> 00:50:53.510 or something. They saw it as God's divine. Exactly. 00:50:53.750 --> 00:50:57.750 They were like, yes, God did it. With the King 00:50:57.750 --> 00:51:01.210 dead. And again, I'm rushing and flattening this 00:51:01.210 --> 00:51:02.769 history. So if you're British historians out 00:51:02.769 --> 00:51:04.769 there, forgive me for not getting all the details 00:51:04.769 --> 00:51:08.219 exactly right. Perhaps with the King dead. The 00:51:08.219 --> 00:51:11.000 monarchy was effectively over in England for 00:51:11.000 --> 00:51:12.780 a period. They entered into what was known as 00:51:12.780 --> 00:51:16.099 the Interregnum, the period between kings, where 00:51:16.099 --> 00:51:19.059 there was no king, but Oliver Cromwell served 00:51:19.059 --> 00:51:21.639 as the Lord High Protector, essentially the ruler 00:51:21.639 --> 00:51:26.260 of England. Oliver Cromwell was a Puritan. And 00:51:26.260 --> 00:51:30.400 so with a Puritan in command of the most powerful 00:51:30.400 --> 00:51:33.579 empire in the world by this point, the Puritans 00:51:33.579 --> 00:51:36.099 in New England think their day in the sun has 00:51:36.099 --> 00:51:40.929 arrived. they experience this period of hegemony 00:51:40.929 --> 00:51:43.190 which sends them throughout the colonies they 00:51:43.190 --> 00:51:44.909 go and interfere in some things that are happening 00:51:44.909 --> 00:51:46.829 in Maryland we'll talk about that another time 00:51:46.829 --> 00:51:50.309 it's important but not for right now they're 00:51:50.309 --> 00:51:52.610 on top of the world for a little while but then 00:51:52.610 --> 00:51:56.250 in the 1660s Oliver Cromwell has died his son 00:51:56.250 --> 00:51:59.880 can't really carry the mantle the Restoration 00:51:59.880 --> 00:52:02.400 is that the Royalists come back and they put 00:52:02.400 --> 00:52:05.699 King Charles the second on the throne, right? 00:52:06.000 --> 00:52:08.400 Yeah, we have the restoration Puritans hear about 00:52:08.400 --> 00:52:11.179 all this and say well shit You know, we thought 00:52:11.179 --> 00:52:13.400 we were on top of the world and now we're stuck 00:52:13.400 --> 00:52:15.940 with another Anglican King He doesn't see things 00:52:15.940 --> 00:52:19.059 our way blah blah blah, but then worst of all 00:52:19.239 --> 00:52:22.760 this new king decides to let his little brother, 00:52:23.079 --> 00:52:26.679 James, the Duke of York, have some military garrisons 00:52:26.679 --> 00:52:30.179 in the colonies. So James, who will eventually 00:52:30.179 --> 00:52:32.980 become James II, the King of England, when his 00:52:32.980 --> 00:52:37.900 brother dies, James will look to reorganize the 00:52:37.900 --> 00:52:41.739 colonies so that there's more direct military 00:52:41.739 --> 00:52:47.130 control from the crown in the colonies. New York 00:52:47.130 --> 00:52:49.869 and all of the colonies in New England to include 00:52:49.869 --> 00:52:52.469 Massachusetts and Plymouth, but also Rhode Island 00:52:52.469 --> 00:52:54.210 and Connecticut by this point, New Hampshire 00:52:54.210 --> 00:52:58.510 by this point. All of these are forced into one 00:52:58.510 --> 00:53:02.030 super colony known as the Dominion of New England. 00:53:03.309 --> 00:53:06.650 This is in 1686. The Dominion of New England 00:53:06.650 --> 00:53:09.369 was governed by a soldier by the name of Sir 00:53:09.369 --> 00:53:13.190 Edmund Andros. and everybody in the dominion 00:53:13.190 --> 00:53:17.389 of new england was required by state law to be 00:53:17.389 --> 00:53:21.090 anglican and to go to the anglican church and 00:53:21.090 --> 00:53:23.769 there was no freedom of worship in the dominion 00:53:23.769 --> 00:53:26.750 of new england this also meant that there were 00:53:26.750 --> 00:53:30.429 a lot of now high taxes being paid for administration 00:53:30.429 --> 00:53:33.570 and into the church of england and the puritans 00:53:33.570 --> 00:53:37.349 are fucking mad of course they are and like you 00:53:37.349 --> 00:53:41.000 know the thing is like we're like well into this 00:53:41.000 --> 00:53:44.440 experiment, you know, like several decades by 00:53:44.440 --> 00:53:47.699 the time the, the dominion occurs, you know? 00:53:48.280 --> 00:53:53.059 So I'm assuming obviously that by the time this 00:53:53.059 --> 00:53:55.320 is all starting to go down, I mean, there's a 00:53:55.320 --> 00:53:58.579 lot more people, you know, here than like what 00:53:58.579 --> 00:54:01.880 originally came over in 16, 20 and 30. I mean, 00:54:02.659 --> 00:54:05.000 children have been born at this point, you know? 00:54:05.420 --> 00:54:09.659 I mean, newcomers like have arrived from England, 00:54:09.659 --> 00:54:12.679 you know, it's not just the original people that 00:54:12.679 --> 00:54:14.760 came over here and decided, Hey, this is where 00:54:14.760 --> 00:54:17.840 we're going to expand ourselves. Um, and a lot 00:54:17.840 --> 00:54:21.880 of influence too, you know, of all of that, you 00:54:21.880 --> 00:54:26.539 know, um, wow. And this is a big important point, 00:54:26.940 --> 00:54:28.989 right? Right. You may, you may not have known 00:54:28.989 --> 00:54:32.349 you were making a big important point. Big important 00:54:32.349 --> 00:54:34.829 point. The first generation, the originators 00:54:34.829 --> 00:54:36.750 of the covenant, the ones who had originally 00:54:36.750 --> 00:54:40.289 entered into this were dying off. Their children 00:54:40.289 --> 00:54:43.989 and newcomers were dispersed over a larger area 00:54:43.989 --> 00:54:48.769 with less devoutly uniform religion than the 00:54:48.769 --> 00:54:54.289 Winthrop crowd had been. In a weird twist, successful 00:54:54.289 --> 00:54:58.650 settlement and expansion had bred greater secularity. 00:54:58.710 --> 00:55:02.250 People were more into things like commerce, more 00:55:02.250 --> 00:55:04.949 into things like cosmopolitanality, being in 00:55:04.949 --> 00:55:07.449 cities and things like that. And to Puritan establishment, 00:55:08.050 --> 00:55:10.909 that was a threat. Well, I mean, you're, you're, 00:55:10.909 --> 00:55:13.090 you're tough. You're, you're like with that, 00:55:13.210 --> 00:55:15.989 you're tapping into all of those things that, 00:55:15.989 --> 00:55:19.469 you know, shows uniformity. I mean, it's the, 00:55:19.469 --> 00:55:21.869 the theater, the entertainment, like you say, 00:55:22.090 --> 00:55:26.320 cosmopolitan life of a city. Um, I mean, it does 00:55:26.320 --> 00:55:29.559 commerce, you know, uh, getting involved in that. 00:55:29.699 --> 00:55:35.019 I mean, um, it's just, you start to see these 00:55:35.019 --> 00:55:38.619 pillars that had been put in place. Begin to 00:55:38.619 --> 00:55:42.260 crumble because you're adding diversity to a 00:55:42.260 --> 00:55:44.079 place. You know, like you taught, we've talked 00:55:44.079 --> 00:55:47.460 about these, this old guard is dying off. I mean, 00:55:47.559 --> 00:55:51.139 the younger guard is carrying a mantle. Some 00:55:51.139 --> 00:55:54.320 of them that, you know, do not the history. Some 00:55:54.320 --> 00:55:56.159 of them are carrying it in a different way. And 00:55:56.159 --> 00:55:59.019 then you have people coming over from England 00:55:59.019 --> 00:56:01.800 that are still inundated from the church of England 00:56:01.800 --> 00:56:04.320 and all the religiosity there, you know, that 00:56:04.320 --> 00:56:06.059 aren't going to just be like, Hey, I got off 00:56:06.059 --> 00:56:08.860 the boat. Like I'm giving up everything that 00:56:08.860 --> 00:56:12.400 I've known my entire life to now follow you fools. 00:56:13.699 --> 00:56:17.440 And let me ask even those born into that society, 00:56:17.519 --> 00:56:20.739 uh, where Puritanism was the normal day to day 00:56:20.739 --> 00:56:24.019 life. You were raised as an evangelical which 00:56:24.019 --> 00:56:26.360 borrows an awful lot from Puritanism, right? 00:56:27.219 --> 00:56:30.179 As you became an adult and you had to work and 00:56:30.179 --> 00:56:32.659 things like that, even before you fell away from 00:56:32.659 --> 00:56:36.119 your own faith, did you go to church all the 00:56:36.119 --> 00:56:37.920 time? Or were there days that you were just like, 00:56:38.000 --> 00:56:39.659 man, I'm tired. I can't make it this week. I 00:56:39.659 --> 00:56:42.920 tried to get out of it as much as I could. Yeah, 00:56:42.960 --> 00:56:45.940 well so you can understand how people in Puritan 00:56:45.940 --> 00:56:48.219 New England are starting to feel as Commerce 00:56:48.219 --> 00:56:50.519 and trade get bigger and as more and more people 00:56:50.519 --> 00:56:53.659 are around for them to experience new ideas They're 00:56:53.659 --> 00:56:55.659 not gonna want to go to church all the time and 00:56:55.659 --> 00:56:59.079 Puritan ministers whose whole livelihood depends 00:56:59.079 --> 00:57:02.599 on this They look to dwindling church attendance 00:57:02.599 --> 00:57:05.980 and the waning piety around them as the reason 00:57:05.980 --> 00:57:09.360 that things That bad things were happening to 00:57:09.360 --> 00:57:12.380 them And remember, these aren't political leaders. 00:57:12.519 --> 00:57:15.159 Ministers can't be political leaders. They weren't 00:57:15.159 --> 00:57:18.039 permitted to hold office, but they exhorted enormous 00:57:18.039 --> 00:57:21.019 spiritual influence on every single facet of 00:57:21.019 --> 00:57:24.739 Puritan day -to -day life. They began to preach 00:57:24.739 --> 00:57:28.920 frequently these hours -long sermons known as 00:57:28.920 --> 00:57:32.519 Jeremiads. Sort of what we're doing with our 00:57:32.519 --> 00:57:36.340 podcast. It takes their name from the Book of 00:57:36.340 --> 00:57:40.880 Jeremiah in Scripture, right? Jeremiah adds lamented 00:57:40.880 --> 00:57:45.179 moral decline. They warned that society had strayed 00:57:45.179 --> 00:57:48.460 from its obligations to the covenant. They admonished 00:57:48.460 --> 00:57:51.920 people to return to the righteousness of God's 00:57:51.920 --> 00:57:56.599 grace or face God's divine wrath. It's interesting 00:57:56.599 --> 00:57:59.280 because you know, okay, so this is where we are 00:57:59.280 --> 00:58:02.420 now. Like, right. And this is after a few decades. 00:58:02.659 --> 00:58:05.579 You mean it's, it's, I'm sure shifted some of 00:58:05.579 --> 00:58:08.619 the message that is. Um, but now we're at that 00:58:08.619 --> 00:58:11.320 point of the world is falling apart around us. 00:58:11.940 --> 00:58:15.559 Um, you know, we have to turn back to God or, 00:58:15.739 --> 00:58:18.300 you know, the world as we know it is going to 00:58:18.300 --> 00:58:21.500 decline to such a state that whatever. But we've 00:58:21.500 --> 00:58:24.139 heard this before. I mean, I would not, I mean, 00:58:24.219 --> 00:58:25.960 like, well, we have heard it before this, but 00:58:25.960 --> 00:58:28.420 we've also heard it after this so many times, 00:58:28.460 --> 00:58:31.409 so many times. But then like ego, let's talk 00:58:31.409 --> 00:58:34.070 about the messages that kind of circulate in 00:58:34.070 --> 00:58:37.150 Christian Christianity, if you will. So you've 00:58:37.150 --> 00:58:39.929 got the doom and gloom God fire and brimstone. 00:58:40.210 --> 00:58:42.170 The world as we know it is falling apart. We've 00:58:42.170 --> 00:58:45.489 lost our way. You have the. Follow God. He'll 00:58:45.489 --> 00:58:48.710 give you everything. Joel Osteen, prosperity 00:58:48.710 --> 00:58:52.289 gospel, and which was really big in the, like, 00:58:52.329 --> 00:58:56.469 you know, in the aughts and 2010 eras. I mean, 00:58:56.650 --> 00:58:58.710 really big. A lot of people, churches blew up. 00:58:58.869 --> 00:59:00.409 That's when you saw the era of mega churches 00:59:00.409 --> 00:59:05.730 really explode. Um, and now we're in this politicized 00:59:05.730 --> 00:59:11.889 version of the message that has gotten so far 00:59:11.889 --> 00:59:16.630 away from. what the core tenets of any of this 00:59:16.630 --> 00:59:19.570 religion stood for, you know, and it's only really 00:59:19.570 --> 00:59:21.889 parodying talking points that they've heard on 00:59:21.889 --> 00:59:24.530 Fox news or whatever. So the point I'm making 00:59:24.530 --> 00:59:27.710 is this is just another cycle. And eventually 00:59:27.710 --> 00:59:29.809 this cycle will die off too. And it makes me 00:59:29.809 --> 00:59:33.090 really wonder what the next one will be. Will 00:59:33.090 --> 00:59:37.630 it be like, um, like, Oh dude, what was his name 00:59:37.630 --> 00:59:40.449 again? Oh, homeboy that, uh, that got kicked 00:59:40.449 --> 00:59:43.119 out Roger. Will it be like the Roger Williams? 00:59:43.280 --> 00:59:46.619 Yeah. Of the world that come in and say, Hey 00:59:46.619 --> 00:59:49.820 y 'all, like we have really lost our way, not 00:59:49.820 --> 00:59:53.719 as a country, not as a society, as a people, 00:59:54.079 --> 00:59:58.940 but as a belief system. Just remember that the 00:59:58.940 --> 01:00:01.980 Roger Williams, Baptists and the Southern Baptists 01:00:01.980 --> 01:00:05.420 of our own childhood and experiences are very, 01:00:05.579 --> 01:00:08.380 very different Baptists. Yes, I do know that. 01:00:08.400 --> 01:00:11.820 And I mean, Well, you're not going to get any 01:00:11.820 --> 01:00:13.800 less denominations because I swear to God though, 01:00:13.960 --> 01:00:17.840 just create another one. Right. Look, the idea 01:00:17.840 --> 01:00:20.559 that a chosen people has fallen from a sacred 01:00:20.559 --> 01:00:22.780 founding mission is probably one of the most 01:00:22.780 --> 01:00:26.059 enduring Puritan inheritance, inheritances in 01:00:26.059 --> 01:00:28.500 our. American political culture, right? Yeah, 01:00:28.500 --> 01:00:31.340 they're always preaching this America has fallen 01:00:31.340 --> 01:00:33.880 from the path and we've got a Reclaim America 01:00:33.880 --> 01:00:36.400 for God and we got to get back on the path of 01:00:36.400 --> 01:00:38.559 righteousness This is what Jerry Falwell was 01:00:38.559 --> 01:00:40.179 doing in the wake of 9 -eleven and that clip 01:00:40.179 --> 01:00:43.360 we had at the beginning This is what modern politicians 01:00:43.360 --> 01:00:45.460 are doing when they talk about American moral 01:00:45.460 --> 01:00:48.539 decline This is what the satanic panic was all 01:00:48.539 --> 01:00:51.119 about what the culture wars over sexuality and 01:00:51.119 --> 01:00:54.889 race and gender all about these people, Christian 01:00:54.889 --> 01:00:59.829 nationalists of today are nostalgic for a mythologized 01:00:59.829 --> 01:01:03.590 purified Christian past. And they want to quote, 01:01:03.809 --> 01:01:06.869 take America back through moral panic. Well, 01:01:06.869 --> 01:01:08.550 of course they do. I mean, we're already seeing 01:01:08.550 --> 01:01:11.489 a second coming of the satanic panic. We're seeing, 01:01:11.929 --> 01:01:14.170 we're seeing it. We're seeing it as I live and 01:01:14.170 --> 01:01:16.309 breathe. Um, I think we're just scratching the 01:01:16.309 --> 01:01:19.630 surface of it. And I think that once it really 01:01:19.630 --> 01:01:24.050 takes its hold on like the, the Christian community 01:01:24.050 --> 01:01:26.429 is really going to like have an absolute shit 01:01:26.429 --> 01:01:33.210 fit over it because I have seen more people lately, 01:01:33.210 --> 01:01:40.789 like, uh, like really embrace, um, like natural 01:01:40.789 --> 01:01:46.099 medicines and, uh, I mean, just like, Uh, like 01:01:46.099 --> 01:01:49.159 witches and wizardry and thinking about spells. 01:01:49.679 --> 01:01:51.800 And I mean, like you hear about, which is on 01:01:51.800 --> 01:01:55.440 Etsy now. I mean, like, you know, like that's 01:01:55.440 --> 01:01:56.960 kind of crazy, but it's kind of cool. But I mean, 01:01:56.960 --> 01:01:58.659 like, I think that we're going to, I mean, we 01:01:58.659 --> 01:02:00.780 are seeing the San Diego Panic on it. We're seeing 01:02:00.780 --> 01:02:03.800 like the signal flares go up, you know, but I 01:02:03.800 --> 01:02:06.179 think like in a very, that may be the next big 01:02:06.179 --> 01:02:08.340 message, y 'all. I mean, maybe I'm calling it 01:02:08.340 --> 01:02:10.619 here because that's, you know, I look at like 01:02:10.619 --> 01:02:12.760 artists like Florence, uh, Florence in the machine. 01:02:12.960 --> 01:02:15.579 You know, um, she's on tour right now. And if 01:02:15.579 --> 01:02:18.340 you go look at any of her concert footage, I 01:02:18.340 --> 01:02:20.860 mean, a Christian that would be like in this, 01:02:21.139 --> 01:02:22.460 the types of Christians that we're talking about, 01:02:22.579 --> 01:02:24.199 the Christian nationals who like really believe 01:02:24.199 --> 01:02:27.639 in like demons and this idea of good and bad 01:02:27.639 --> 01:02:30.480 and all of this shit fighting behind the curtain. 01:02:31.440 --> 01:02:33.420 They would see this and be like, Oh my God, like 01:02:33.420 --> 01:02:37.909 they're conjuring spirits. And moral panic is 01:02:37.909 --> 01:02:39.849 one of the hallmarks of Christian nationalism, 01:02:39.849 --> 01:02:43.610 right? The danger of that is that for any chosen 01:02:43.610 --> 01:02:47.170 people ideology, Christian or otherwise, political 01:02:47.170 --> 01:02:50.809 failure becomes spiritual betrayal. Right. So 01:02:50.809 --> 01:02:53.210 dissent is seen as corruption and existential 01:02:53.210 --> 01:02:54.789 threat. It's not just a simple disagreement. 01:02:54.909 --> 01:02:57.170 It's not just people doing their own thing. This 01:02:57.170 --> 01:03:01.150 is bad for the foundation of who we are as a 01:03:01.150 --> 01:03:03.670 community. Well, it is. And I think what happens, 01:03:03.670 --> 01:03:06.230 and I think we're seeing this now, is that people 01:03:06.230 --> 01:03:09.570 have even gotten away from the, why has God forsaken 01:03:09.570 --> 01:03:11.789 us? And then just taking matters into, we'll 01:03:11.789 --> 01:03:14.030 just take matters into our own hands. Like God's 01:03:14.030 --> 01:03:17.789 not here with us. I mean, people who are out 01:03:17.789 --> 01:03:19.489 here protesting what's going on in the world, 01:03:19.489 --> 01:03:20.730 you know, around the political stuff. I mean, 01:03:20.730 --> 01:03:22.050 you know, yes, there are some people who are 01:03:22.050 --> 01:03:23.769 like leaning on the God thing, but I mean, that's 01:03:23.769 --> 01:03:26.110 like, that's the fanatics, right? That are like 01:03:26.110 --> 01:03:28.150 really leaning on like these one topic voter 01:03:28.150 --> 01:03:30.190 bullshits, you know, I mean, and like fuck all 01:03:30.190 --> 01:03:32.590 of them. They should all like not vote anymore. 01:03:32.869 --> 01:03:36.630 If you are only voting on one topic, one. Topic 01:03:36.630 --> 01:03:40.309 then don't just don't don't it is much more nuanced. 01:03:40.309 --> 01:03:42.809 It's much more complex than that. But I mean, 01:03:42.889 --> 01:03:48.670 like, you know, the crazy thing about this piece 01:03:48.670 --> 01:03:50.849 here and like what we're talking about and the 01:03:50.849 --> 01:03:54.170 whole idea of the hallmarks. I mean, we're seeing 01:03:54.170 --> 01:03:56.469 them, you know, as we go through history, the 01:03:56.469 --> 01:04:00.070 hallmarks of Christian nationalism. I mean, and. 01:04:00.199 --> 01:04:02.920 It makes me think, you know, if, if, if ministers 01:04:02.920 --> 01:04:05.340 are preaching about falling away from grace and 01:04:05.340 --> 01:04:08.360 all of that, you know, what are the people supposed 01:04:08.360 --> 01:04:12.559 to do to fix it? I mean, wasn't settling in New 01:04:12.559 --> 01:04:15.440 England supposed to be the fix in the first place? 01:04:16.329 --> 01:04:19.329 Yeah, it was. And then it got corrupted by the 01:04:19.329 --> 01:04:22.469 satanic forces in Roger Williams and Anne Hutchinson. 01:04:22.869 --> 01:04:26.289 It was waylaid by the savages of the Pequod and 01:04:26.289 --> 01:04:29.469 the brutality of King Philip's War. It was neutered 01:04:29.469 --> 01:04:32.150 by the political machinations of an obviously 01:04:32.150 --> 01:04:36.119 misguided monarchy. All of this proved to the 01:04:36.119 --> 01:04:38.960 Puritans that God was angry at them for straying 01:04:38.960 --> 01:04:42.179 too far from the covenant, for being too lenient 01:04:42.179 --> 01:04:46.019 and too permissive halfway covenant again, right? 01:04:46.460 --> 01:04:49.219 For daring to think of others from time to time. 01:04:49.280 --> 01:04:53.239 How dare they think of anything besides this 01:04:53.239 --> 01:04:55.420 rigid spiritual covenant they're supposed to 01:04:55.420 --> 01:04:58.019 adhere to every single day. How do they fix it 01:04:58.019 --> 01:05:01.699 and please God again? They take it back. They 01:05:01.699 --> 01:05:05.920 reclaim it in His name. So they make Massachusetts 01:05:05.920 --> 01:05:10.260 great again. Bingo. And they do it by channeling 01:05:10.260 --> 01:05:13.840 God's wrath into righteous determination. They 01:05:13.840 --> 01:05:19.039 fight first, take back the land, overthrow the 01:05:19.039 --> 01:05:22.119 dominion of New England and reclaim political 01:05:22.119 --> 01:05:26.460 hegemony, then purify the land with blood. Wow. 01:05:27.659 --> 01:05:31.920 On April 18th. 1689, upon learning of the glorious 01:05:31.920 --> 01:05:36.260 revolution in England, when James II was overthrown, 01:05:36.599 --> 01:05:39.719 and William and Mary became the new rulers, the 01:05:39.719 --> 01:05:42.860 Puritan leaders in Massachusetts, including people 01:05:42.860 --> 01:05:46.460 like Cotton Mather, organized a popular uprising 01:05:46.460 --> 01:05:49.619 against Sir Edmund Andros. Now this was done 01:05:49.619 --> 01:05:52.059 without a lot of violence, which is great credit 01:05:52.059 --> 01:05:55.630 where it's due. Andros was arrested. and imprisoned 01:05:55.630 --> 01:05:58.190 for nearly a year before being shipped off to 01:05:58.190 --> 01:06:01.050 England for trial, which was pretty much immediately 01:06:01.050 --> 01:06:04.690 dismissed. So Edmund Andros doesn't really he's 01:06:04.690 --> 01:06:07.170 not really much worse for the wear. Meanwhile, 01:06:07.429 --> 01:06:10.230 each of the colonies reclaimed its charter with 01:06:10.230 --> 01:06:12.349 Plymouth now being absorbed into Massachusetts 01:06:12.349 --> 01:06:15.949 Bay, and they restored their independent church 01:06:15.949 --> 01:06:20.070 centered governments. But even after reclaiming 01:06:20.070 --> 01:06:23.320 their autonomy, Puritan New England remained 01:06:23.320 --> 01:06:26.239 a deeply anxious society at the end of the 17th 01:06:26.239 --> 01:06:29.539 century. War and disease were still all around 01:06:29.539 --> 01:06:32.340 them. Political authority had proven fragile 01:06:32.340 --> 01:06:36.679 too often. Many were convinced that Satan himself 01:06:36.679 --> 01:06:42.019 stalked their new Jerusalem. Yeah. And so that 01:06:42.019 --> 01:06:46.179 leads us to the part where the Puritans really 01:06:46.179 --> 01:06:50.659 get their bad reputation. Right. And I'm not 01:06:50.659 --> 01:06:54.179 gonna hit this very hard, this is overused as 01:06:54.179 --> 01:06:56.320 an example, but I do want to underpin some of 01:06:56.320 --> 01:06:57.960 the things that we're specifically looking at. 01:06:58.019 --> 01:07:03.420 So you all know this story. Early in 1692, young 01:07:03.420 --> 01:07:06.079 girls in the village of Salem exhibited strange 01:07:06.079 --> 01:07:09.980 convulsive symptoms of unknown origin. Fear spread 01:07:09.980 --> 01:07:12.599 quickly, and within a month, people were being 01:07:12.599 --> 01:07:16.199 arrested for witchcraft. One of them was the 01:07:16.199 --> 01:07:20.880 enslaved woman Tituba from Barbados. Yeah, Puritans 01:07:20.880 --> 01:07:23.280 had people of color in bondage, but that's for 01:07:23.280 --> 01:07:27.219 a whole other series. Yep. As far as justifying 01:07:27.219 --> 01:07:31.500 the arrests, any evidence was arbitrary and inconsistent. 01:07:32.159 --> 01:07:36.119 Often, it was invisible. It was known as spectral 01:07:36.119 --> 01:07:39.460 evidence, only visible to the witches and the 01:07:39.460 --> 01:07:42.840 people that they were hurting. Right. By the 01:07:42.840 --> 01:07:46.099 end of that summer, 19 people had been executed 01:07:46.099 --> 01:07:49.380 by hanging One man had been pressed to death 01:07:49.380 --> 01:07:52.760 with stones and hundreds more languished in prisons 01:07:52.760 --> 01:07:55.500 across the region, awaiting trials that would 01:07:55.500 --> 01:07:58.599 almost certainly end in similar fates. Right. 01:07:58.880 --> 01:08:01.079 And when we say languished in prison, we really 01:08:01.079 --> 01:08:05.119 say put their forgotten about and most left to 01:08:05.119 --> 01:08:08.409 die. And when we say prison, we mean a hovel 01:08:08.409 --> 01:08:12.849 with leaky roofs or ceilings and rats and disease 01:08:12.849 --> 01:08:14.929 and just nastiness. And when we say rats where 01:08:14.929 --> 01:08:17.270 you talk about like the really, really big ones, 01:08:17.430 --> 01:08:22.470 you know, that do maximum damage. Right. Now, 01:08:22.470 --> 01:08:26.010 history often portrays Salem as a psychological 01:08:26.010 --> 01:08:30.050 case study in mass hysteria, which is fair, but 01:08:30.050 --> 01:08:33.090 I think that's too simple, and it maybe gives 01:08:33.090 --> 01:08:35.829 them a pass for the horror that they perpetrated. 01:08:37.029 --> 01:08:40.029 The idea that this is just mass hysteria misses 01:08:40.029 --> 01:08:42.649 the underlying structure on which the whole thing 01:08:42.649 --> 01:08:45.930 was based, right? The Puritans, as we've discussed, 01:08:46.170 --> 01:08:49.710 were not hysterical. They were afraid, they were 01:08:49.710 --> 01:08:52.409 fanatical, but they weren't crazy, they were 01:08:52.409 --> 01:08:55.109 convinced, and they had excellent reason to be 01:08:55.109 --> 01:08:58.449 from their point of view. The Salem witch trials 01:08:58.449 --> 01:09:02.390 were not a random isolated burst of irrationality. 01:09:02.729 --> 01:09:05.170 They happened in a society that was obsessed 01:09:05.170 --> 01:09:08.529 with spiritual purity, invisible threats, and 01:09:08.529 --> 01:09:14.550 the loss of God's favor. What happened in 1692 01:09:14.550 --> 01:09:17.930 demonstrates something terrifying about religious 01:09:17.930 --> 01:09:23.409 extremism in any form or faith. Societies that 01:09:23.409 --> 01:09:26.550 define themselves according to sacred identity 01:09:26.550 --> 01:09:29.710 often become fearful of internal corruption, 01:09:30.210 --> 01:09:34.590 especially when things go wrong. Invisible enemies, 01:09:34.989 --> 01:09:37.630 whether they're Satanists or witches, dissenters, 01:09:38.010 --> 01:09:40.590 strangers, whatever, are existential threats 01:09:40.590 --> 01:09:43.550 to the entire covenant, and it's less about fear 01:09:43.550 --> 01:09:46.210 of personal harm than it is about moral panic 01:09:46.210 --> 01:09:50.600 over the downfall of the entire society. Once 01:09:50.600 --> 01:09:54.100 a community accepts the premise that it's under 01:09:54.100 --> 01:09:58.180 siege, then anyone can become a suspect. Yep. 01:09:59.260 --> 01:10:01.819 Historically, that has always worked out to the 01:10:01.819 --> 01:10:04.020 detriment of people in the margins, whether they're 01:10:04.020 --> 01:10:07.079 women or people of color, people whose faith 01:10:07.079 --> 01:10:11.260 doesn't check all the right boxes. It's tempting 01:10:11.260 --> 01:10:14.000 to look at Salem as the moment the covenant finally 01:10:14.000 --> 01:10:16.520 broke under all the pressure, but the covenant 01:10:16.520 --> 01:10:20.800 didn't break. Salem broke. Massachusetts broke, 01:10:21.220 --> 01:10:24.100 Puritan hegemony broke, but the Covenant and 01:10:24.100 --> 01:10:27.180 its demands on society survived and lived on 01:10:27.180 --> 01:10:31.199 into the long American past. The executions eventually 01:10:31.199 --> 01:10:35.180 stopped. The trials ended. Life got back to normal 01:10:35.180 --> 01:10:38.199 more or less, but the anxieties that underpinned 01:10:38.199 --> 01:10:41.520 the panic remained, and so did the ideas established 01:10:41.520 --> 01:10:45.600 by Puritans in the New World. Belief in a communal 01:10:45.600 --> 01:10:49.420 sacred destiny, suspicion that invisible internal 01:10:49.420 --> 01:10:52.800 corruption will destroy the covenant and fear 01:10:52.800 --> 01:10:56.100 that society had drifted too far from God and 01:10:56.100 --> 01:10:59.439 had angered him. Yeah. You know, it's just fascinating 01:10:59.439 --> 01:11:02.479 because you look at this and you think about, 01:11:02.479 --> 01:11:06.659 you know, what did happen in 1692. And how it 01:11:06.659 --> 01:11:09.020 was the byproduct of this group of people feeling 01:11:09.020 --> 01:11:12.420 that, you know, Satan himself had gotten, you 01:11:12.420 --> 01:11:16.300 know, had infiltrated their community. Um, but 01:11:16.300 --> 01:11:18.600 like, it's just, again, that's just a common 01:11:18.600 --> 01:11:23.039 theme. I mean, it, it worked so well, um, as 01:11:23.039 --> 01:11:28.000 the tactic to get, you know, they're intended. 01:11:29.139 --> 01:11:32.279 Actions that, I mean, it's just, it happens over 01:11:32.279 --> 01:11:36.619 and over and over again. I mean, they demonize 01:11:36.619 --> 01:11:40.859 groups of people. Um, I mean, and like how quickly 01:11:40.859 --> 01:11:43.479 we forget about our history because we look at 01:11:43.479 --> 01:11:47.020 like 1692 and the, in this, in the Salem witch 01:11:47.020 --> 01:11:50.020 trials and. You know, the horrors that happened 01:11:50.020 --> 01:11:53.680 there. Um, but then, and it was a by -product 01:11:53.680 --> 01:11:56.340 of a group of people being, you know, fanatical 01:11:56.340 --> 01:11:59.380 and afraid. Uh, because of their way of life 01:11:59.380 --> 01:12:01.180 being threatened, their way of life, being able 01:12:01.180 --> 01:12:03.380 to like worship a certain way or whatever it 01:12:03.380 --> 01:12:07.300 is. But we see this happening in other countries 01:12:07.300 --> 01:12:12.220 and we call it terrorism. Right. Yeah. Good parallel. 01:12:12.420 --> 01:12:14.619 You know, interesting how that works. It is, 01:12:14.779 --> 01:12:16.920 it is. Um, I mean, and we talk, it's not like 01:12:16.920 --> 01:12:18.979 this is a forgotten history. We talk about this 01:12:18.979 --> 01:12:22.439 all the time, particularly in October. Funny 01:12:22.439 --> 01:12:26.520 enough. Um, uh, but I mean, like there are tons 01:12:26.520 --> 01:12:29.550 of. books written on this, uh, documentaries 01:12:29.550 --> 01:12:32.090 that have been produced. I mean, podcasts that 01:12:32.090 --> 01:12:34.449 talk about the Salem witch trials and everything 01:12:34.449 --> 01:12:41.210 that led up to it. And I mean, we, it's one of 01:12:41.210 --> 01:12:43.029 those things that, you know, as a historian, 01:12:43.170 --> 01:12:45.569 I can only imagine it's gotta be somewhat infuriating. 01:12:45.670 --> 01:12:48.149 It's like, how did we never, ever, ever learn 01:12:48.149 --> 01:12:50.630 from our past? Like, how is it that we never 01:12:50.630 --> 01:12:52.930 like take a look back and say, you know, we've 01:12:52.930 --> 01:12:55.520 done this before. We've done this before y 'all. 01:12:55.579 --> 01:12:57.539 Do y 'all realize that we've done this same exact 01:12:57.539 --> 01:12:59.220 thing before? And this is how it ended. I mean, 01:12:59.279 --> 01:13:02.399 are we that confident in ourselves as a society? 01:13:02.680 --> 01:13:05.199 Every fucking few generations that like we're 01:13:05.199 --> 01:13:07.000 like, oh, no, no, we're the ones that's going 01:13:07.000 --> 01:13:10.260 to figure this shit out. I'm afraid that if we 01:13:10.260 --> 01:13:12.859 learn from our past, I'd be out of a job. Well, 01:13:12.899 --> 01:13:14.640 true. But I mean, like, look how much we have 01:13:14.640 --> 01:13:17.880 just to look back now. I mean, it is 2026. And 01:13:17.880 --> 01:13:19.460 I mean, we're talking about stuff that happened 01:13:19.460 --> 01:13:25.340 in 1692. There's still a lot of history to talk 01:13:25.340 --> 01:13:30.119 about, man. Even if there was no more history 01:13:30.119 --> 01:13:34.060 made from this day forward. Bro, we have a lot 01:13:34.060 --> 01:13:37.260 to look back on because we clearly have not learned. 01:13:37.500 --> 01:13:40.020 We have not learned as a society or as a people 01:13:40.020 --> 01:13:43.539 or anything. How is it that these people who 01:13:43.539 --> 01:13:49.739 in 1692, in 1620, 1630, and like we are literally 01:13:50.710 --> 01:13:55.869 Making the same mistakes that they did all those 01:13:55.869 --> 01:13:59.130 centuries centuries y 'all centuries ago, and 01:13:59.130 --> 01:14:01.050 we're making the same mistakes. We're making 01:14:01.050 --> 01:14:03.590 the same parallels. We're making the same assumptions. 01:14:03.649 --> 01:14:08.130 We're making the same accusations. It's just 01:14:08.130 --> 01:14:11.829 we're wearing different clothes now. Listen to 01:14:11.829 --> 01:14:14.090 different music or listening to music or however. 01:14:14.090 --> 01:14:17.729 Yeah, listening to music again. I don't know. 01:14:17.729 --> 01:14:20.789 We're going to hell for that one. Yeah. Dancing 01:14:20.789 --> 01:14:25.270 a little bit. What can I say? They made a movie 01:14:25.270 --> 01:14:26.989 about this. Footloose guys. They made a movie 01:14:26.989 --> 01:14:31.250 about this, about being such a sin. And that 01:14:31.250 --> 01:14:34.510 was in the eighties. And like it's still true. 01:14:35.430 --> 01:14:38.470 But Detroit Rock City is about that. And Rock 01:14:38.470 --> 01:14:40.350 of Ages, the musical, which I didn't see, but 01:14:40.350 --> 01:14:43.890 I heard it was pretty bad. All of these is like 01:14:43.890 --> 01:14:46.189 America's falling apart because of these rock 01:14:46.189 --> 01:14:49.010 and roll kids. Oh my God, man. I mean, never 01:14:49.010 --> 01:14:52.750 mind like abject poverty, lack of education, 01:14:53.489 --> 01:14:58.149 a mental health crisis, you know, not having 01:14:58.149 --> 01:15:01.210 proper resources to treat to treat drug addiction 01:15:01.210 --> 01:15:05.970 or just addiction in general. Yeah, let's not 01:15:05.970 --> 01:15:07.810 dance, y 'all. Let's not dance. That's going 01:15:07.810 --> 01:15:11.000 to ruin the society that we live in. Which witch 01:15:11.000 --> 01:15:13.380 hunts haven't stopped have they they have not 01:15:13.380 --> 01:15:15.579 according to Donald Trump. They're alive and 01:15:15.579 --> 01:15:23.699 well Speak of the devil And he appears it's the 01:15:23.699 --> 01:15:31.840 witch hunt So the big takeaway you would think 01:15:31.840 --> 01:15:34.539 that the Puritans can't really come back from 01:15:34.539 --> 01:15:38.039 this The witch trials are notorious. As you said, 01:15:38.119 --> 01:15:40.079 we talk about this all the time. This is, you 01:15:40.079 --> 01:15:41.979 know, there's nobody who doesn't know what happened 01:15:41.979 --> 01:15:46.159 in Salem. Yeah. Who would pay these guys any 01:15:46.159 --> 01:15:49.020 heed after something like that? I, you know, 01:15:49.119 --> 01:15:52.060 I certainly wouldn't. As a matter of fact, Benjamin 01:15:52.060 --> 01:15:55.300 Franklin, born just a few years later in Boston, 01:15:56.260 --> 01:15:58.260 reads about this growing up and he washes his 01:15:58.260 --> 01:16:01.060 hands of religion more or less. Nice. Well, at 01:16:01.060 --> 01:16:04.229 least this kind of religion. Sure. But for all 01:16:04.229 --> 01:16:06.810 intents and purposes, we are done with the Puritans. 01:16:07.329 --> 01:16:09.510 They have some parts to play in other colonies 01:16:09.510 --> 01:16:12.310 that we'll talk about as we go. They interfere 01:16:12.310 --> 01:16:14.670 with the Catholic experiment in Maryland, for 01:16:14.670 --> 01:16:17.529 example, and the Quakers seemingly responded 01:16:17.529 --> 01:16:21.829 directly to Puritanism upon founding Pennsylvania 01:16:21.829 --> 01:16:25.670 as a religiously tolerant society. But it's time 01:16:25.670 --> 01:16:29.010 to move on from the city on the hill. Sort of. 01:16:29.630 --> 01:16:35.069 Sort of? Well... the more things change. The 01:16:35.069 --> 01:16:39.569 more they say the same. Yeah, pretty much. In 01:16:39.569 --> 01:16:41.189 the years following the height of the panic, 01:16:41.329 --> 01:16:44.069 many participants did express remorse. The Salem 01:16:44.069 --> 01:16:46.869 witch trials were a stain on the Puritan experiment 01:16:46.869 --> 01:16:50.609 and their moment began to fade as a new generation 01:16:50.609 --> 01:16:53.850 of preachers channeled those 17th century anxieties 01:16:53.850 --> 01:16:57.329 away from the legalistic societal covenant and 01:16:57.329 --> 01:17:01.069 emphasized a more personal individual experience 01:17:01.069 --> 01:17:05.079 of salvation. But the rhetoric of covenant and 01:17:05.079 --> 01:17:08.899 collective destiny remained intact the city stays 01:17:08.899 --> 01:17:13.920 up there on that hill Emotional conversion spiritual 01:17:13.920 --> 01:17:17.279 rebirth a great awakening. That's where we're 01:17:17.279 --> 01:17:20.739 headed next Can we just stay with the Puritans 01:17:20.739 --> 01:17:24.340 then because like I know what's coming next and 01:17:24.340 --> 01:17:26.899 like I've heard this story before and I don't 01:17:26.899 --> 01:17:30.899 like the ending I'll make it as pretty as possible. 01:17:31.140 --> 01:17:34.319 Oh my God, because like what happens next is 01:17:34.319 --> 01:17:36.300 like the precursor to like what we're living 01:17:36.300 --> 01:17:40.239 in now. I, I know it is and I don't want to talk 01:17:40.239 --> 01:17:42.199 about it. So I might not be on the next episode 01:17:42.199 --> 01:17:46.859 guys. So sorry. Nah, I'm always going to be here. 01:17:46.939 --> 01:17:49.039 I really appreciate, appreciate y 'all listening 01:17:49.039 --> 01:17:51.739 to me. It really does mean a lot. Um, you know, 01:17:52.119 --> 01:17:55.199 as always be good to yourselves, be good to each 01:17:55.199 --> 01:17:59.289 other. And, you know, as always, keep it weird. 01:18:29.099 --> 01:18:32.340 We'd love to hear from you. Subscribe, rate and 01:18:32.340 --> 01:18:34.680 review us on your favorite podcast platform. 01:18:35.520 --> 01:18:37.920 You can also find us on Instagram and Facebook. 01:18:38.979 --> 01:18:39.840 Thanks again for listening.