WEBVTT

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We're going to be teaching you how to receive

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God's very best. Praise the Lord. In the very

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beginning, in the blessing of the Lord that make

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us rich. The greatest single cause of atheism

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in the world today is Christians who acknowledge

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Jesus with their lips, walk out the door and

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deny him by their lifestyle. That is what an

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unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable.

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Whoa. And guess what? That's not an atheist talking.

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No, that's Brennan Manning, once a Franciscan

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priest. And his critique here coming from inside

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the Christian tradition is exactly what this

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season is all about. The gap between what is

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preached and what is practiced. What's going

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on, Jeremy? Yo, Jamie, what's up, man? Man, it's,

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uh, I can't believe we're back for our third

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season already. And I know, man. It's pretty

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awesome though, right? Yeah, dude. And this one's

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the one we've been really wanting to do almost

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from the beginning. We've been wanting to talk

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about this topic. And so, uh, Finally, we're

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going to do it. We're going to talk about Christian

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nationalism in America and really try to, you

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know, trace the history and kind of unpack that.

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And, you know, if there is a gap, as Manning

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suggests, between what Christianity teaches and

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how it's practiced in the United States today,

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we want to know how and why that gap got so wide

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and so dangerous. And maybe not use our own personal

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experiences to identify that. Cause we probably

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have some real good theories and hypotheses on

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why there's, why there's such a gap. Um, I mean,

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having, having come up in a very, for me, a very,

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at one time, fundamentalist Christian, then charismatic

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Christian, then evangelical Christian. Christian

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nationals, kind of the evolution to that of,

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you know, unfortunately, where one of one of

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my parents is at in their life. But yeah, I mean,

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we're going to really try to go through this

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from a historical perspective, as we've done

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with a lot of our our topics in our seasons.

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And, you know, of course, at our color commentary

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on top of that. Right. As always. And I think

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it's important to start off by stating the obvious

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right up front. America is not and has never

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been a Christian nation. Christianity did not

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arrive in America until 1492. And by the time

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it got here, well, let's just say it didn't look

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exactly like it had before. So let's talk about

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that history. Let's jump into a quick and dirty

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history of Christianity before it arrives here

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in America, specifically with the English in

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the 17th century. do it. Oh, deep breath. Deep

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breath. Most historians worth their salt agree

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that there was indeed a historical Palestinian

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Jewish man named Jesus or Yeshua in Hebrew or

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Joshua in English or just Josh. But in Hebrew,

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it was Yahweh, I believe. Yahweh. So Yahweh was

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the name of God and Jesus was the Oh, that's

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right. Yeah, so it gets so complicated. It does.

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And we're trying so very hard not to put the

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cart before the horse. But I mean, let's be honest,

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I think with this topic, I mean, the cart essentially

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runs the horse over and we end up all chasing

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the cart while carrying this very injured horse.

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Right. We'll call him Jesus. That's what that's

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what most people know him as the horse or the

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cart of whole shebang a bang. Jesus' teachings

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and those of his earliest followers emerged within

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the context of Second Temple Judaism. This included

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traditions of world's end theology, a belief

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in an individual savior of mankind, a messiah,

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and debates about the interpretation of Jewish

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law. This man got on the wrong side of the wrong

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people and ultimately was crucified by the Roman

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governor of Judea, Pontius Pilate, in around

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30 CE amid tensions between the Roman occupiers

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and the Jewish population. So this brief history

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is going to count very, very broadly from the

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crucifixion until Christianity arrives in America.

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And this is not a deep deep dive. We'd be here

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all year if I was going to do a deep deep dive.

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This is very broad overview. Things will get

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left out, but we're following a specific through

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line. So, following Jesus's death and alleged

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resurrection, his followers, the apostles, became

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missionaries. They traveled throughout the Roman

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Empire and interpreted Jesus's life and message

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for new audiences. These early interpretations

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were not uniform or universal. The apostles emphasized

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different aspects of Jesus' identity and teachings

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for different audiences, which resulted in widely

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diverse early Christian beliefs and practices.

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They didn't all agree on everything ever. And

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importantly, nobody had a written record of anything

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that Jesus ever said. Later converts like Paul

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and others who had never known Jesus while he

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was alive and relied only on visionary experiences

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and emerging oral traditions. These guys continued

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an oral and textual tradition of their own that

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reframed apostolic interpretation and adapted

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teachings rooted in ancient Jewish traditions

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into Greek philosophical language and inquiry.

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So already we see the original message being

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turned to other purposes within a generation

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of Jesus's life. Right. Letters, gatherings,

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these often centered on debates about salvation,

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about spiritual law and authority, and even about

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the divinity of Christ, whether or not Christ

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was truly the Son of God and therefore God Himself.

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This was not something that was universal in

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the early church. As more and more Roman peoples

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converted to worshiping Jesus, they periodically

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faced persecution at the hands of the Roman Empire,

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which in some cases drove Christian communities

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underground. The faith developed into something

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like a mutual aid society dedicated to worship

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and to caring for one another, which is exactly

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what a church should be doing. Right. Yeah, absolutely.

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And I think that to me, it's always been kind

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of the core. teachings of Jesus, you know, is

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that caring for one another, you know, honestly,

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kind of how to live with one another. Right.

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And with one another, not with just the select,

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not with just the people, but like with everybody,

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to live with your neighbor, to live in love.

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You know, all his parables are about how to love

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other people outside of the community, you know?

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Yes, exactly. Anyway, I digress and get ahead

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of myself. By the early 4th century CE, as the

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Roman Empire itself grew and came to control

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most of the known world, the religion found greater

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acceptance among Roman authorities. Emperor Constantine

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I, who himself was a Christian convert, issued

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the Edict of Milan in 313 CE, which legalized

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Christianity in the western part of the empire.

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His co -emperor in the East and his rival, Licinius,

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who was not a Christian, nevertheless did the

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same in the Eastern part of the empire. Now eventually

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these two went to war with each other and Constantine

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emerged victorious and ordered Licinius' execution,

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like good Christians do to each other. Of course.

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This really is a good early example that demonstrates

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the uneasy relationship between Christian ideology

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and imperial politics. Right. Exactly. Power

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and faith maybe shouldn't be the same thing.

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Anyway. Right. A generation later, Emperor Theodosius

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I made it the Roman official religion, institutionalizing

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and tying the faith to imperial power. This period

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of late antiquity saw Christianity spread not

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only within the Roman Empire, but also beyond

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it, developing in diverse forms across regions

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such as North Africa, the Eastern Mediterranean,

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and even Persia. Official clerical councils defined,

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quote, orthodoxy, or what Greek for correct practice.

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This orthodoxy established a curated deliberately

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curated set of interpretations and practices

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that were related to Jesus's life and message

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but Had their own flavor their own Shapes their

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own kind of distortions and they also labeled

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others that were also building in this same kind

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of tradition as heretical Okay, so now now we've

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got debates over the authority of who is deciding

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what is Christianity and what is not. Over the

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course of several centuries, church leaders gradually

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formalized a canon of scripture, affirmed certain

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texts as authoritative while rejecting other

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texts that were seen as maybe not so authoritative

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or even problematic. This process varied regionally.

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It was not the result of a single decision or

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council. A lot of people try to put it on the

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council of Nicea or the council of Trent or whatever.

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It's not one single council, not one single decision.

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This is going on over and over in a process that

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goes on for a really long time. Wow. They developed

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within the faith a clerical hierarchy to govern

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the faith throughout the empire and reframed

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the the whole ceremony is representing Jesus

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in his role as high priest. So now he's divine,

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according to the orthodox texts and practices,

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and he's also the high priest, the representative

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of God on earth. And so the priests and the bishops

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and even the pope are representing Jesus. as

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the high priest. That's crazy, man. I mean, it's

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interesting because you see as we go through,

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as we have gone through history here, you know,

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emperors begin to accept the faith, then make

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it the official faith. And now that it's the

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official faith of Rome, they're, they are not,

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not the emperors, but they have a council or

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a group of people. Who are now creating the structure

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and essentially the laws of the the religion,

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you know, which will probably start to Translate

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into like quote -unquote biblical law that you

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know, a lot of people followed in the Old Testament

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And to me it's just fascinating because you know,

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you had this religion that was really I mean,

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honestly, at the time, free thinking, free form.

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I mean, if you think before, a lot of these people

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were worshiping multiple gods at once, you know?

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And so for me, it's like, what was the, to me,

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it's always been the question of like, what was

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that appeal that made them come from, from one

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or, you know, decided to give up one religion

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to adopt another. And I mean, you could be like

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conquest and like, you know, the victors who

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have the religion didn't import, you know, impose

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it onto others, but then it's like. Imagine being

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there too. I know, I know. And I'm not trying

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to get ahead of myself, but just thinking about

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it. It's like, you know, what was the appeal,

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but it's like, imagine being a peasant in this

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time and you're having to go to all these different

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ceremonies, sun ceremonies, you know, moon ceremonies,

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harvest ceremonies. And I mean, like, I'm sure

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it's a great time, but like, you also need to

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farm your fields and whatever else that you need

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to do. And all of a sudden now there's just one

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God who has one son who was also a God. And eventually

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we'll introduce another one down the road, but

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it is also a God and they're all the same. but

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they're different and you just have to pray to

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them once. And you have to go to church once

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or twice a week, maybe depending on how they're

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starting to structure things. Now you begin to

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see it's the convenience of it all more so than

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the appeal of a religion that saves your soul

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or anything like that. It's just now I can do

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my daily tasks and not have to worry about praying

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to the, the rain God or the cloud God or the

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dirt God or whatever it is. Well, and it's interesting

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that you bring up, so that would be much more

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of the more general Roman experience coming from

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a pantheon of several gods and even the household

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gods of the elders and moving to a monotheistic

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religion like Christianity. Jewish people were

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already used to monotheism for a long time. They

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had been more pantheistic way, way, way back.

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But for a long time, they sort of had a head

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start. Early on in the generation following Jesus'

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death, it was mostly Jewish people who converted

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to Christianity. Okay. But then as this grows,

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you do get these pagans who are converting to

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changing their whole idea of what divinity is

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and everything. But it's all based so much on

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things that if they can read them at all, mind

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you, right, they are curated by a group of people

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who are in power, imperial power. Well, that,

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and to me that was the striking, um, point of,

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of this, of, of watching as we go through history,

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you have a religion that is, that faces a lot

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of persecution. I mean, the person who is the

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quote unquote deity that brought this religion

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to earth is sacrificed because of their beliefs.

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And then it's all, it sounds like they start

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to turn a corner and I mean, it's adopted, but

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it's also at the same time that you see these

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power structures come into place, you know, um,

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and then they, exert that power onto now this

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religion, which is now the official religion

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of the state, you know? And I mean, fascinating

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to me. It has always been like Vikings, for example.

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I mean, you've talked about other, you know,

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pagan cultures, but like how Vikings are so,

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I mean, loyal, I guess, to their, to their God

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system. And then begin to hear about them converting

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to Christianity. I mean, it's like, wow, it was

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a message with a lot of power behind it. Well,

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and again, not to get ahead, but you bring up

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the Vikings. So as a specific, I'll just say,

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you know, their big migration from out of the

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North was tied in a lot of ways to other migrations

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that were already happening. Right. But it was

00:15:05.080 --> 00:15:08.299
also a pushback against the growing of Christendom

00:15:08.299 --> 00:15:11.399
into their historical regions. Yeah. And then

00:15:11.399 --> 00:15:13.019
when they start so, you know, first, they're

00:15:13.019 --> 00:15:16.309
coming down with these bloodthirsty pagan. But

00:15:16.309 --> 00:15:18.470
then they start to convert after a couple of

00:15:18.470 --> 00:15:20.990
hundred years because they see the power that

00:15:20.990 --> 00:15:23.730
Christianity is bringing to the kings throughout

00:15:23.730 --> 00:15:26.149
Europe. Well, that's just is the, the, the alliances

00:15:26.149 --> 00:15:27.789
that they begin to make. And it's like, I was

00:15:27.789 --> 00:15:30.110
saying early, early on, you know, again, with

00:15:30.110 --> 00:15:32.929
the, with the conversion to Christianity, is

00:15:32.929 --> 00:15:35.889
it driven by the convenience or is it driven

00:15:35.889 --> 00:15:40.289
by the conquest? You know, of, of the Christianity

00:15:40.289 --> 00:15:43.009
just going, you know, kind of spreading across

00:15:43.009 --> 00:15:46.210
the world, you know, um, And, and because it

00:15:46.210 --> 00:15:50.909
is then adopted by people who are, who are the

00:15:50.909 --> 00:15:54.389
most powerful people of that time. I mean, it's,

00:15:54.450 --> 00:15:56.389
it is like that trickle down effect, you know,

00:15:56.429 --> 00:15:58.370
that we see so many times, you know, and it's

00:15:58.370 --> 00:16:01.269
the Alliance to the people in power more so than

00:16:01.269 --> 00:16:04.190
it is to the religion itself, which I think is

00:16:04.190 --> 00:16:06.409
one of the reasons why maybe it's so muddy. I

00:16:06.409 --> 00:16:07.909
mean, why there's different, so many different

00:16:07.909 --> 00:16:11.700
ways to believe it. because of some of these

00:16:11.700 --> 00:16:13.360
things. And I'm sure we'll get all into this,

00:16:13.419 --> 00:16:15.100
but to me, it's like, we're just starting to

00:16:15.100 --> 00:16:16.679
pull the curtain back a little bit. And it's

00:16:16.679 --> 00:16:21.700
like, this is, this is why it became so popular,

00:16:22.019 --> 00:16:25.080
not because it was a religion or belief system

00:16:25.080 --> 00:16:27.279
that really had the conviction behind it. It's

00:16:27.279 --> 00:16:29.299
because the people in power were basically like,

00:16:29.399 --> 00:16:31.059
yo, this is what we're doing now. And they're

00:16:31.059 --> 00:16:34.919
like, okay. It's fun to peel that curtain back.

00:16:34.960 --> 00:16:38.940
Welcome. Welcome to being a historian. So, I

00:16:38.940 --> 00:16:40.980
mean essentially what we've just described there

00:16:40.980 --> 00:16:44.220
is that what began as a very loosely organized

00:16:44.220 --> 00:16:47.320
movement of the faithful grew into a structured

00:16:47.320 --> 00:16:50.220
church with increasing spiritual and political

00:16:50.220 --> 00:16:54.980
influence and authority. Christian theologians

00:16:54.980 --> 00:16:57.179
like Augustine of Hippo and other early quote

00:16:57.179 --> 00:17:00.759
-unquote church fathers codified much of this

00:17:00.759 --> 00:17:03.100
through their continual engagement with spiritual

00:17:03.100 --> 00:17:04.880
teachings. So we do give this one credit that

00:17:04.880 --> 00:17:08.490
they keep going back to the record, although,

00:17:08.829 --> 00:17:12.390
again, to emphasize, there is no historical record

00:17:12.390 --> 00:17:15.289
other than the Bible, which was written after

00:17:15.289 --> 00:17:18.849
Jesus's death, of anything that Jesus ever said.

00:17:19.049 --> 00:17:21.329
Nevertheless, these church fathers do go back

00:17:21.329 --> 00:17:26.049
to that record consistently in trying to codify

00:17:26.049 --> 00:17:30.869
and interpret much of this. The concept of Jesus

00:17:30.869 --> 00:17:33.349
you brought up the three gods, right? Yeah three

00:17:33.349 --> 00:17:36.430
in one God that concept of Jesus is the Holy

00:17:36.430 --> 00:17:39.009
Trinity is something they work out over decades

00:17:39.009 --> 00:17:42.210
and centuries It's not something that was universally

00:17:42.210 --> 00:17:44.289
accepted among Christians at one time and I can

00:17:44.289 --> 00:17:46.390
see that and I think it's interesting too And

00:17:46.390 --> 00:17:49.210
I don't know like where in history we are, you

00:17:49.210 --> 00:17:52.769
know, well, I mean I do but Thinking about early

00:17:52.769 --> 00:17:55.369
early early Christians like the earliest adopters

00:17:55.369 --> 00:17:59.430
of Christianity, you know As I understood were

00:17:59.430 --> 00:18:03.670
actually Zoroastrians who studied or not with

00:18:03.670 --> 00:18:06.430
study, but believed in a lot of gods and that,

00:18:06.529 --> 00:18:08.190
and I know that we're now we're kind of jumping

00:18:08.190 --> 00:18:10.670
ahead. I think. Because like the 10 commandments,

00:18:10.950 --> 00:18:12.569
as I understood it, this is something that was

00:18:12.569 --> 00:18:14.630
taught to me. You know, I don't want us necessarily

00:18:14.630 --> 00:18:16.730
to bunk it right now. We'll get to it when we

00:18:16.730 --> 00:18:19.329
do, but one of the first thing commit the first

00:18:19.329 --> 00:18:22.089
of the 10 commandments was thou shall not have

00:18:22.089 --> 00:18:24.769
any other gods before me. And that did not mean

00:18:24.769 --> 00:18:27.049
you will not serve other gods. It just means

00:18:27.049 --> 00:18:29.430
you will not serve any other gods more than you

00:18:29.430 --> 00:18:33.069
serve me. As a matter of fact, as I understand

00:18:33.069 --> 00:18:37.190
it, that specific commandment was much more about

00:18:37.190 --> 00:18:41.730
the placement of representations of the God within

00:18:41.730 --> 00:18:47.109
the temple. And so the place for Yahweh or Adonai.

00:18:47.609 --> 00:18:50.319
Yeah. was supposed to have a place of prominence,

00:18:50.519 --> 00:18:53.440
and other gods that the early ancient Hebrews

00:18:53.440 --> 00:18:57.140
worshiped needed to be not ahead of this representation

00:18:57.140 --> 00:19:01.630
of Adonai. That's exactly right. And so there's

00:19:01.630 --> 00:19:03.470
you know, there's a lot of revisiting and saying

00:19:03.470 --> 00:19:05.390
oh, well, maybe we weren't correct about this

00:19:05.390 --> 00:19:07.910
and maybe this that but again This is all very

00:19:07.910 --> 00:19:10.710
curated. This is all sort of cobbled together

00:19:10.710 --> 00:19:13.549
from traditions Many of which were never written

00:19:13.549 --> 00:19:16.470
down right and then trying to write it down now

00:19:16.470 --> 00:19:20.349
lends some permanence and some I guess some intellectual

00:19:20.349 --> 00:19:22.609
authority to it and we do look to the Church

00:19:22.609 --> 00:19:24.950
Fathers as intellectuals thinking about all this

00:19:24.950 --> 00:19:28.240
stuff, but it's not It's a far cry from the poor

00:19:28.240 --> 00:19:32.539
carpenter in, in Nazareth. It is right. It absolutely

00:19:32.539 --> 00:19:35.880
is. I mean, it has evolved so much by this point

00:19:35.880 --> 00:19:44.539
that, I mean, it's a political, it's a political,

00:19:44.799 --> 00:19:48.000
uh, like, like a political power piece now that

00:19:48.000 --> 00:19:50.039
people can move on it, like almost on a table,

00:19:50.079 --> 00:19:52.400
you know, in regards to, cause I mean, it does

00:19:52.400 --> 00:19:55.559
start to get more like. Christians versus the

00:19:55.559 --> 00:19:58.559
pagans. And, you know, the, they pushed to, you

00:19:58.559 --> 00:20:01.539
know, convert and all of those things and it

00:20:01.539 --> 00:20:05.259
being the religion of certain countries, you

00:20:05.259 --> 00:20:07.799
know, as we start to move through history, um,

00:20:07.900 --> 00:20:11.799
how it's adopted. And then, I mean, sadly forced

00:20:11.799 --> 00:20:15.200
on to the people of that area, because I mean,

00:20:15.259 --> 00:20:18.160
this is the. One that we're all agreeing is the

00:20:18.160 --> 00:20:20.359
one it's like that. And that's why it's so important.

00:20:20.460 --> 00:20:22.319
I'm going way, jump way, way ahead. We're hopping

00:20:22.319 --> 00:20:24.900
into the old DeLorean and going back to 1985.

00:20:25.299 --> 00:20:26.880
That's why it's so important to have the separation

00:20:26.880 --> 00:20:29.579
of church and state this right here, what we're

00:20:29.579 --> 00:20:32.420
talking about right now with this part of this

00:20:32.420 --> 00:20:35.140
time in history, when you have very powerful

00:20:35.140 --> 00:20:38.980
empires adopting it and saying, this is now what

00:20:38.980 --> 00:20:42.759
we believe. And then what forcing people to convert

00:20:42.759 --> 00:20:47.650
and it creates. A lot of converts who don't have

00:20:47.650 --> 00:20:49.670
the conviction to follow the religion. So now

00:20:49.670 --> 00:20:52.670
you see a lot of do as I say not as I do. So

00:20:52.670 --> 00:20:56.390
that's that rent I'll make for right now, but

00:20:56.390 --> 00:21:00.869
These these are good points to make and as you

00:21:00.869 --> 00:21:03.690
said now that it is official This is the religion

00:21:03.690 --> 00:21:06.250
of the state and when you say the state here,

00:21:06.269 --> 00:21:09.049
we're talking about the state Yes, the Roman

00:21:09.049 --> 00:21:13.000
Empire was the state of that time. Yep But what

00:21:13.000 --> 00:21:15.220
happens when that empire disappears? You would

00:21:15.220 --> 00:21:18.019
think that the faith would fall with it, and

00:21:18.019 --> 00:21:21.539
yet that's not what happens. Something... I won't

00:21:21.539 --> 00:21:24.220
call it sinister, but maybe I'll call it nefarious.

00:21:24.279 --> 00:21:28.380
Something happens. After the fall of Rome and

00:21:28.380 --> 00:21:30.720
the decline of the Western Empire in the 5th

00:21:30.720 --> 00:21:35.140
century, 473 CE, something like that, the Roman

00:21:35.140 --> 00:21:38.619
Church preserved and distributed all of the written

00:21:38.619 --> 00:21:41.200
Christian teachings that it could keep in its...

00:21:41.240 --> 00:21:44.059
custody. They distributed these throughout much

00:21:44.059 --> 00:21:46.559
of Europe and Western Asia and Northern Africa.

00:21:47.539 --> 00:21:51.200
And meanwhile, the Eastern Roman Empire or the

00:21:51.200 --> 00:21:54.140
Byzantine Empire continued for nearly another

00:21:54.140 --> 00:21:57.599
thousand years, serving as another major center

00:21:57.599 --> 00:22:00.480
of Christian theology, liturgy, and imperial

00:22:00.480 --> 00:22:03.000
religious authority. So in the West, you've got

00:22:03.000 --> 00:22:06.380
a Christianity now that is becoming more diffuse.

00:22:06.940 --> 00:22:10.369
It's dispersing across Europe. into all of the

00:22:10.369 --> 00:22:12.490
chaos that the Middle Ages brings. Right. But

00:22:12.490 --> 00:22:15.109
in the East, you have a church that is still

00:22:15.109 --> 00:22:18.369
standing along with the empire and still retains

00:22:18.369 --> 00:22:22.009
all of that authority. And these two worlds are

00:22:22.009 --> 00:22:23.710
going to diverge from each other a little bit

00:22:23.710 --> 00:22:28.470
now for a while. Monastic communities, especially

00:22:28.470 --> 00:22:32.650
in the West, played a crucial role in shaping

00:22:32.650 --> 00:22:36.089
medieval Christianity, that very severe, almost

00:22:36.089 --> 00:22:39.799
ominous Catholic medieval Christianity. Right.

00:22:40.500 --> 00:22:43.539
Monks and nuns pursued spiritual discipline,

00:22:43.539 --> 00:22:46.240
but they also preserved manuscripts, they copied

00:22:46.240 --> 00:22:48.819
manuscripts by hand over and over and over again,

00:22:48.960 --> 00:22:51.079
to make sure that these could be distributed.

00:22:51.240 --> 00:22:54.140
They also engaged in missionary work, they helped

00:22:54.140 --> 00:22:56.640
spread Christian practices across Europe, they

00:22:56.640 --> 00:22:59.299
ministered to the poor and to the sick. They

00:22:59.299 --> 00:23:02.180
did all the things that the teachings called

00:23:02.180 --> 00:23:06.980
on them to do. Sure. But they did so for reasons

00:23:06.980 --> 00:23:11.440
that might not have been perfectly in line with

00:23:11.440 --> 00:23:14.400
the original message, a lot of it being power.

00:23:14.779 --> 00:23:19.579
Of course. Yeah, exactly. Then things get really

00:23:19.579 --> 00:23:21.960
complicated, because from the seventh century

00:23:21.960 --> 00:23:26.019
onward, the rise of Islamic empires reshaped

00:23:26.019 --> 00:23:29.420
the religious landscape completely in the Mediterranean

00:23:29.420 --> 00:23:32.660
and the Near East. Now, We know that eventually

00:23:32.660 --> 00:23:36.480
there's conflict, but for a long time many historically

00:23:36.480 --> 00:23:40.069
Christian regions came under Muslim rule. and

00:23:40.069 --> 00:23:42.869
Christian communities continued to exist and

00:23:42.869 --> 00:23:45.730
even flourish alongside Islamic intellectual

00:23:45.730 --> 00:23:48.430
and political systems, which meant that both

00:23:48.430 --> 00:23:51.049
were influencing each other and being influenced

00:23:51.049 --> 00:23:55.349
by each other, right? Christianity and Islam

00:23:55.349 --> 00:23:58.809
coexisted and borrowed from one another all the

00:23:58.809 --> 00:24:02.069
time. And it's notable to say that a lot of Islam

00:24:02.960 --> 00:24:05.980
Look, Muslims revere Jesus. They believe different

00:24:05.980 --> 00:24:08.420
things about Jesus than Christians do, but Jesus

00:24:08.420 --> 00:24:12.160
is an important figure in both. Anyway, it's

00:24:12.160 --> 00:24:13.940
just fascinating. Again, that's another fascinating

00:24:13.940 --> 00:24:16.680
piece to me again, is that, you know, as I understand

00:24:16.680 --> 00:24:19.680
it, you know, Islam, the Muslim religion is one

00:24:19.680 --> 00:24:25.240
of the older religions of our existence, but

00:24:25.240 --> 00:24:31.750
it took the apostolic missionary approach of

00:24:31.750 --> 00:24:37.430
Christianity for them to meet, if you will, and

00:24:37.430 --> 00:24:42.309
eventually fight. But I mean, again, this is

00:24:42.309 --> 00:24:45.529
one of the older religions, as I understand it,

00:24:46.250 --> 00:24:50.250
that stayed where it originated and flourished

00:24:50.250 --> 00:24:52.670
and where it originated and didn't feel the need

00:24:52.670 --> 00:24:56.759
to go out in the world and convert people. And

00:24:56.759 --> 00:24:58.579
I mean, there was a very powerful, there were

00:24:58.579 --> 00:25:00.680
powerful regimes and empires that were going

00:25:00.680 --> 00:25:02.759
on, on that side of the world that were Muslim.

00:25:03.240 --> 00:25:09.539
I mean, there were, um, uh, I guess holy armies,

00:25:09.539 --> 00:25:11.859
I guess is the best way to describe them under

00:25:11.859 --> 00:25:13.960
that. You know, I mean, which may come much,

00:25:13.960 --> 00:25:16.799
much later, but I mean, they were very well,

00:25:16.819 --> 00:25:20.940
no, their beliefs and very certain about it,

00:25:21.000 --> 00:25:22.880
but they didn't feel the need to take it to Europe.

00:25:24.730 --> 00:25:27.690
From my own limited understanding of Islamic

00:25:27.690 --> 00:25:32.910
history Arabs for hundreds and maybe even thousands

00:25:32.910 --> 00:25:36.170
of years before that recognized a lot of things

00:25:36.170 --> 00:25:40.049
in common with Jews and with Christians regarding

00:25:40.519 --> 00:25:44.019
the stories of God or Allah as Arabs would refer

00:25:44.019 --> 00:25:47.000
to him even before Islam. It was in the seventh

00:25:47.000 --> 00:25:50.380
century that Muhammad kind of organized Islam

00:25:50.380 --> 00:25:53.140
into an ideology and into a faith. But yeah,

00:25:53.180 --> 00:25:54.920
some of those traditions had been around for,

00:25:55.079 --> 00:25:57.119
if you think about in the Old Testament, they're

00:25:57.119 --> 00:25:59.299
often talking about sheikhs out in the desert.

00:26:00.619 --> 00:26:04.009
Sheikhs are Arabs that are You know leading arab

00:26:04.009 --> 00:26:06.029
communities. They're not hebrews. They're not

00:26:06.029 --> 00:26:08.670
jews. They're not israelites Um, they're they're

00:26:08.670 --> 00:26:11.109
arabs pre -islamic arabs that still believe in

00:26:11.109 --> 00:26:13.269
a lot of these same traditions I believe i'm

00:26:13.269 --> 00:26:15.170
correct in saying all of that. It's just arabs

00:26:15.170 --> 00:26:19.049
also had pantheism Um in their culture for a

00:26:19.049 --> 00:26:21.430
long time and islam does away with pantheism

00:26:21.430 --> 00:26:24.210
completely becomes very monotheistic but uh,

00:26:24.430 --> 00:26:27.029
yeah, um those traditions they had been around

00:26:27.029 --> 00:26:30.849
for a long time and These people especially in

00:26:30.849 --> 00:26:33.829
the Levant where Israel and Palestine are today

00:26:33.829 --> 00:26:37.250
They they all coexisted they all coexisted for

00:26:37.250 --> 00:26:39.890
a while under Roman occupation now, they're coexisting

00:26:39.890 --> 00:26:42.950
in the medieval sense Things are coming that

00:26:42.950 --> 00:26:46.130
are gonna shake that up. But for a while Things

00:26:46.130 --> 00:26:50.490
are perfectly fine, right? That's so cool. Actually

00:26:50.490 --> 00:26:54.009
it no, it's beautiful and it's exactly what faithful

00:26:54.009 --> 00:26:57.710
people should be doing but Interpretation of

00:26:57.710 --> 00:27:01.049
the original message continues to evolve through

00:27:01.049 --> 00:27:04.049
all this through debate, through consensus, now

00:27:04.049 --> 00:27:06.289
through local practice and cultural blending

00:27:06.289 --> 00:27:10.970
as well. Sometimes consensus couldn't be achieved.

00:27:11.349 --> 00:27:14.130
And when that happened, disagreements over doctrinal

00:27:14.130 --> 00:27:16.569
and dogmatic authority was likely to lead to

00:27:16.569 --> 00:27:20.950
divisions. One of these major disagreements between

00:27:20.950 --> 00:27:23.109
the Latin -speaking hierarchies in the West and

00:27:23.109 --> 00:27:26.029
the Greek -speaking hierarchies in the East resulted

00:27:26.029 --> 00:27:28.950
in the great schism of the 11th century, which

00:27:28.950 --> 00:27:32.049
divided the Roman Catholic Church from the Eastern

00:27:32.049 --> 00:27:37.549
Orthodox Church, demonstrating that even orthodoxy

00:27:37.549 --> 00:27:41.490
was not universal. Even correct practice was

00:27:41.490 --> 00:27:44.410
not universally agreed upon between these two

00:27:44.410 --> 00:27:47.059
sides of the faith now. And I mean, what's fascinating

00:27:47.059 --> 00:27:51.420
is that that trend continues down the path of

00:27:51.420 --> 00:27:54.339
Christianity as it takes its, you know, hold

00:27:54.339 --> 00:27:57.079
in the Americas and well, and probably other

00:27:57.079 --> 00:27:59.579
places too, and then evolves into all of these

00:27:59.579 --> 00:28:01.779
different denominations. I mean, name another

00:28:01.779 --> 00:28:05.259
religion that has the number of denominations

00:28:05.259 --> 00:28:11.299
that Christianity does. I certainly cannot. You

00:28:11.299 --> 00:28:13.299
know, it has happened in Islam. It has happened

00:28:13.299 --> 00:28:17.200
in Buddhism as well, but so many hundreds. And,

00:28:17.359 --> 00:28:18.680
uh, yeah, I can't, I can't name another one that

00:28:18.680 --> 00:28:22.920
has quite as many traditions that all believe

00:28:22.920 --> 00:28:26.099
in essentially the same core of things, but have

00:28:26.099 --> 00:28:29.599
so many different versions of that, that they

00:28:29.599 --> 00:28:31.660
can't agree with each other. It's like they can't

00:28:31.660 --> 00:28:33.380
even talk to each other and the rules and the

00:28:33.380 --> 00:28:36.359
foundations and all of that, that govern how

00:28:36.359 --> 00:28:40.480
they believe is just fascinating. Exactly. So

00:28:40.480 --> 00:28:42.420
we'll stick with the Church in the West, the

00:28:42.420 --> 00:28:44.380
Catholics, because that's the part of Europe

00:28:44.380 --> 00:28:46.559
that eventually is going to come to America.

00:28:47.720 --> 00:28:50.099
Throughout the Middle Ages, the Bishop of Rome,

00:28:50.259 --> 00:28:57.759
better known as the Pope, he wielded enormous

00:28:57.759 --> 00:29:01.960
influence in European affairs, and he often either

00:29:01.960 --> 00:29:05.420
clashed with or cozied up to monarchs for political

00:29:05.420 --> 00:29:09.559
gain. Even at one point, resulting in a period

00:29:09.559 --> 00:29:13.799
known as the Western Schism, where multiple popes

00:29:13.799 --> 00:29:16.140
all claimed authority at the same time over the

00:29:16.140 --> 00:29:18.920
church and promptly excommunicated one another.

00:29:19.539 --> 00:29:22.740
That is off to me is amazing, bro. It's like

00:29:22.740 --> 00:29:25.079
the Spider -Man is that is the Spider -Man. If

00:29:25.079 --> 00:29:27.920
that if there was ever a verbal description of

00:29:27.920 --> 00:29:29.980
the Spider -Man meme of every one of them all

00:29:29.980 --> 00:29:33.089
pointing at each other, this is it. Yeah. This

00:29:33.089 --> 00:29:35.250
is it. Like, I am the one and you're out. And

00:29:35.250 --> 00:29:37.609
it's all just exactly each other. No, you're

00:29:37.609 --> 00:29:39.049
out. No, you're out. You're out. You're out.

00:29:39.049 --> 00:29:42.450
Oh, my God. That's awesome. And all of them,

00:29:42.470 --> 00:29:44.910
of course, claiming to be the sole authority

00:29:44.910 --> 00:29:47.289
and representative of Jesus Christ on Earth.

00:29:48.769 --> 00:29:52.569
Also, there's another episode that is interesting.

00:29:52.650 --> 00:29:54.170
I don't remember exactly when this was, but the

00:29:54.170 --> 00:29:57.769
Avignon papacy where the pope. was essentially

00:29:57.769 --> 00:30:01.049
controlled by the French king and ruled from

00:30:01.049 --> 00:30:04.750
France instead of from the Vatican. Wow, politics

00:30:04.750 --> 00:30:07.369
and religion were intrinsically intertwined.

00:30:07.430 --> 00:30:09.529
There was no separating them when it came to

00:30:09.529 --> 00:30:12.269
the pope and what he was up to. Right. Again,

00:30:13.029 --> 00:30:17.109
the church was also rife with scandals, many

00:30:17.109 --> 00:30:19.369
of which were of a financial nature. And of course,

00:30:19.690 --> 00:30:22.710
love of money. We have talked about that before.

00:30:24.109 --> 00:30:28.009
And again, pretty far cry from the poor carpenter

00:30:28.009 --> 00:30:30.710
in Galilee that they claim to worship. He was

00:30:30.710 --> 00:30:34.369
not a rich man, he was never a wealthy man. Some

00:30:34.369 --> 00:30:37.589
of these scandals included simony, selling church

00:30:37.589 --> 00:30:40.789
offices, like if you want to be a bishop, pay

00:30:40.789 --> 00:30:42.730
the right amount of money and you can be a bishop.

00:30:44.450 --> 00:30:47.630
Or indulgences, where you essentially sell forgiveness.

00:30:48.240 --> 00:30:50.920
Pay the right amount of money and I will ensure

00:30:50.920 --> 00:30:53.859
that God forgives your sins I mean this is talk

00:30:53.859 --> 00:30:55.599
about a grift. I wish I had come up with some

00:30:55.599 --> 00:30:58.519
of these things. I'd be a wealthy man. Yes You

00:30:58.519 --> 00:31:00.940
know wealth and wealth and political intrigue

00:31:00.940 --> 00:31:04.380
in general just it's icky when you talk about

00:31:04.380 --> 00:31:06.359
You know administering to the poor and all the

00:31:06.359 --> 00:31:08.079
things that Christianity is supposed to be about

00:31:08.079 --> 00:31:11.720
but we also Need to mention the sexual scandals,

00:31:11.839 --> 00:31:14.200
of course clergy and of course including some

00:31:14.200 --> 00:31:16.640
popes. Well, they're all supposed to be celibate

00:31:16.640 --> 00:31:18.839
mind you Well, the other thing the thing I immediately

00:31:18.839 --> 00:31:20.839
thought when you were like selling churches church

00:31:20.839 --> 00:31:23.140
Offices and selling forgiveness is be like the

00:31:23.140 --> 00:31:25.319
people who had the money that wanted to infiltrate

00:31:25.319 --> 00:31:28.339
that for whatever reason I mean could absolutely

00:31:28.339 --> 00:31:31.130
run rush odd And do whatever they want, because

00:31:31.130 --> 00:31:32.769
if they had the money to get into an office,

00:31:32.849 --> 00:31:34.309
they probably had the money to pay for their

00:31:34.309 --> 00:31:36.470
forgiveness or pay for the scandals to go away.

00:31:36.650 --> 00:31:38.650
And I mean, it's all driven by money and power.

00:31:38.990 --> 00:31:42.349
And I mean, we're so far away away from like

00:31:42.349 --> 00:31:44.670
the core message of what we're supposed to be

00:31:44.670 --> 00:31:47.250
doing and what this belief system is supposed

00:31:47.250 --> 00:31:51.009
to represent. A lot of the clergy of the Middle

00:31:51.009 --> 00:31:53.369
Ages, not everywhere, not all the time, but a

00:31:53.369 --> 00:31:55.529
lot of the clergy of the Middle Ages came out

00:31:55.529 --> 00:31:59.309
of the nobility. In feudal society, the eldest

00:31:59.309 --> 00:32:02.910
son was going to inherit the land. The second

00:32:02.910 --> 00:32:05.450
son was probably going to become a knight, go

00:32:05.450 --> 00:32:08.130
into the military, become an officer. And the

00:32:08.130 --> 00:32:10.650
third son was expected to carry on the legacy

00:32:10.650 --> 00:32:13.230
in some way, usually by going into the clergy.

00:32:13.490 --> 00:32:16.049
So the family had to make sure that some of those

00:32:16.049 --> 00:32:20.559
clerical offices existed. We'd also be really

00:32:20.559 --> 00:32:23.900
remiss not to mention the extreme violence of

00:32:23.900 --> 00:32:28.400
medieval Christianity. Church leaders, popes,

00:32:28.579 --> 00:32:31.500
helped initiate movements such as the Crusades

00:32:31.500 --> 00:32:35.200
and authorized institutions like the Inquisition.

00:32:35.880 --> 00:32:39.559
Although these efforts involved a complex mix

00:32:39.559 --> 00:32:41.519
of religious, political, and social motivations

00:32:41.519 --> 00:32:45.180
across different regions and actors, The upshot

00:32:45.180 --> 00:32:47.859
of all of them is that they were extremely extremely

00:32:47.859 --> 00:32:50.700
violent and destructive to human life in just

00:32:50.700 --> 00:32:55.339
about every case right the Crusades their Reputation

00:32:55.339 --> 00:32:57.319
proceeds and everybody knows about the bloodshed

00:32:57.319 --> 00:32:59.880
of the Crusades. Yeah, bro I think that was the

00:32:59.880 --> 00:33:02.700
first thing I heard about like in my life that

00:33:02.700 --> 00:33:05.019
really started to make me become disillusioned

00:33:05.019 --> 00:33:08.700
with the with the well with religion as a whole

00:33:08.700 --> 00:33:12.170
because As I learned, you know, the Crusades

00:33:12.170 --> 00:33:14.990
were the Christians versus the Muslims. And I

00:33:14.990 --> 00:33:18.029
know that is a lot of complex issues likely going

00:33:18.029 --> 00:33:20.430
on behind it. But for me, as the young person,

00:33:20.430 --> 00:33:23.430
I was at the time learning about this was. Okay.

00:33:23.450 --> 00:33:25.869
So what you're telling me is that these two religions

00:33:25.869 --> 00:33:30.410
engaged in just absolute brutal battle. I mean,

00:33:30.650 --> 00:33:35.009
killing so many, so much bloodshed, so much bloodshed.

00:33:35.250 --> 00:33:38.089
Um, but they're both fighting, but they're both

00:33:38.089 --> 00:33:43.089
fighting for. God and that God is the same God

00:33:43.089 --> 00:33:47.970
Same God a lot literally is Arabic for the God

00:33:47.970 --> 00:33:51.970
right the God The God I mean and so it's like

00:33:51.970 --> 00:33:53.930
I know it was so hard for me to reconcile because

00:33:53.930 --> 00:33:57.190
it's like that why I mean it was for it was for

00:33:57.190 --> 00:33:59.589
religious domination more more than anything

00:33:59.589 --> 00:34:05.049
so like that made me feel that religion in a

00:34:05.049 --> 00:34:07.250
lot of instances when it's really organized to

00:34:07.250 --> 00:34:11.929
that level the the the core of that message is

00:34:11.929 --> 00:34:16.510
usually lost I mean and if you think about to

00:34:16.510 --> 00:34:18.650
what actually starts to happen, you know that

00:34:18.650 --> 00:34:22.510
the Ostensible upshot of the Crusades. We're

00:34:22.510 --> 00:34:25.909
going to rescue the Holy Land where Jesus walked

00:34:25.909 --> 00:34:29.050
Yeah from the infidel right? But when we get

00:34:29.050 --> 00:34:31.389
there and the Crusaders enter into Jerusalem

00:34:31.389 --> 00:34:34.010
and the blood is flowing so high in the streets

00:34:34.010 --> 00:34:36.570
that it reaches the horses bridles That's a lot

00:34:36.570 --> 00:34:39.530
of blood folks. That's a lot of blood You know,

00:34:39.769 --> 00:34:42.250
and then we find that these crusaders have killed

00:34:42.250 --> 00:34:45.750
many many many Muslims, but also many many many

00:34:45.750 --> 00:34:49.789
Jews They're God's chosen people allegedly right

00:34:49.789 --> 00:34:51.710
and then we look for the Inquisition that's supposed

00:34:51.710 --> 00:34:55.269
to be going after witches and heretics and somehow

00:34:55.269 --> 00:34:58.590
ends up killing a lot of Jews It's like wait

00:34:58.590 --> 00:35:01.610
a minute. What's by the way wasn't Wasn't the

00:35:01.610 --> 00:35:04.530
originator of this whole thing, a Jew himself,

00:35:04.730 --> 00:35:07.349
what is going on here? It's just fascinating,

00:35:07.349 --> 00:35:10.550
man, because we know that this was a very pivotal

00:35:10.550 --> 00:35:14.070
point in history. You know, I mean, everyone's

00:35:14.070 --> 00:35:15.929
likely heard of the crusades, at least heard

00:35:15.929 --> 00:35:18.449
the word. If you don't know like what that truly

00:35:18.449 --> 00:35:20.969
meant in the sense of the, you know, Muslim and

00:35:20.969 --> 00:35:23.489
Christian wars, but what is even more fascinating

00:35:23.489 --> 00:35:26.940
to me is, you know, the imagery of blood to the

00:35:26.940 --> 00:35:28.920
horse's bridle. Then you start going into the

00:35:28.920 --> 00:35:31.900
book of revelations, you know, and we'll get

00:35:31.900 --> 00:35:33.780
more into that down the road, but then you start

00:35:33.780 --> 00:35:37.159
to see the same type of language about the enemies

00:35:37.159 --> 00:35:40.039
of God and how much blood is going to flow and

00:35:40.039 --> 00:35:42.639
all of these things. And you're like, really?

00:35:42.920 --> 00:35:45.179
That's what we're into. Just blood flowing, huh?

00:35:45.400 --> 00:35:49.559
All right. And for what it's worth, these crusaders

00:35:49.559 --> 00:35:52.159
and these inquisitors who were responsible for

00:35:52.159 --> 00:35:56.090
so much bloodshed were offered. and promised

00:35:56.090 --> 00:35:58.530
absolution. They're going to heaven for all of

00:35:58.530 --> 00:36:01.309
us. Of course they are. Of course they are. I

00:36:01.309 --> 00:36:09.289
mean, it set the stage for our... How do I say

00:36:09.289 --> 00:36:14.630
this? Our ability as a world to turn a blind

00:36:14.630 --> 00:36:19.949
eye to the death of people, like in wars, for

00:36:19.949 --> 00:36:22.739
example, and things like that, because... Back

00:36:22.739 --> 00:36:25.119
then we justified that it was a necessary, it

00:36:25.119 --> 00:36:29.179
was a necessary evil or whatever it was. And

00:36:29.179 --> 00:36:31.579
because of that now, like we think that's okay.

00:36:31.579 --> 00:36:34.119
Like we think war is killing people. We have

00:36:34.119 --> 00:36:37.639
currently a defensive or department, whatever

00:36:37.639 --> 00:36:42.119
he is. Mr. kegs breath, you know, who is like,

00:36:42.340 --> 00:36:44.440
we're going to obliterate, you know, we're, we're

00:36:44.440 --> 00:36:46.659
in the war to win. I mean, we don't care how

00:36:46.659 --> 00:36:49.039
many people we kill. And it's like, that's what

00:36:49.039 --> 00:36:52.619
we have just as a society come to accept. Okay.

00:36:52.619 --> 00:36:57.699
Yeah, sure. And he's biblically, biblically quoting

00:36:57.699 --> 00:37:00.619
Marcellus Wallace from Pulp Fiction. That is

00:37:00.619 --> 00:37:05.019
amazing. I mean, if there ever was a passage

00:37:05.019 --> 00:37:06.860
that should be in the Bible, it's probably that

00:37:06.860 --> 00:37:10.159
one. So, I mean, I can't really fault him, but

00:37:10.159 --> 00:37:12.639
it just goes to show that these people have no

00:37:12.639 --> 00:37:17.840
idea. I mean, they have no idea for a political

00:37:17.840 --> 00:37:20.159
party who is essentially trying to do what Rome

00:37:20.159 --> 00:37:22.880
did. You know, let's, we're going back now, like

00:37:22.880 --> 00:37:25.460
taking this religion and essentially making it

00:37:25.460 --> 00:37:28.440
the nation's religion without officially making

00:37:28.440 --> 00:37:31.179
it the nation's religion. But they have no idea.

00:37:31.280 --> 00:37:32.739
I mean, Trump can't even tell you what his favorite,

00:37:32.840 --> 00:37:34.340
but he could, he couldn't tell you what his favorite

00:37:34.340 --> 00:37:35.980
Bible verse. I mean, how easy would it have been

00:37:35.980 --> 00:37:39.380
to just be like John three 16? I mean, even,

00:37:39.579 --> 00:37:44.179
even rest, even rasslers know John three 16.

00:37:46.000 --> 00:37:50.000
Yep. And. That's that's just the point right

00:37:50.000 --> 00:37:54.300
this this is about something other than What

00:37:54.300 --> 00:37:57.780
it meant to be a Christian in the original sense,

00:37:57.880 --> 00:38:00.440
right? This is that completely gone so far And

00:38:00.440 --> 00:38:03.900
you know, I'll even put on the church this right

00:38:03.900 --> 00:38:07.699
the church was somewhat responsible for colonizing

00:38:07.699 --> 00:38:10.019
the new world Which is, of course, was another

00:38:10.019 --> 00:38:13.199
violent, violent affair, right? Yeah. Christopher

00:38:13.199 --> 00:38:17.860
Columbus came to the Americas in 1492 in the

00:38:17.860 --> 00:38:21.139
name of their most Catholic majesties. Ferdinand

00:38:21.139 --> 00:38:24.519
and Isabella of Spain with a biblical mandate.

00:38:24.579 --> 00:38:27.460
I should add to claim dominion over the land

00:38:27.460 --> 00:38:30.659
and all life that's in Genesis. Look it up. Oh

00:38:30.659 --> 00:38:34.840
my gosh. That's crazy. Right. Given dominion

00:38:34.840 --> 00:38:37.239
over all land and all life, which means that

00:38:37.239 --> 00:38:39.900
the people they're going to find here, all they

00:38:39.900 --> 00:38:42.260
got to do is turn them into beasts and they can

00:38:42.260 --> 00:38:44.360
claim dominion over them. Oh, how do you turn

00:38:44.360 --> 00:38:46.780
them into beasts? You're right about them. You,

00:38:46.780 --> 00:38:51.000
you, you create a false narrative that they're

00:38:51.000 --> 00:38:58.530
savages. Oh man. Yeah, buddy. But we're not ready

00:38:58.530 --> 00:39:01.150
to talk about America just yet. Europe still

00:39:01.150 --> 00:39:03.869
has too big a part to play in distorting the

00:39:03.869 --> 00:39:06.429
original message that was allegedly delivered

00:39:06.429 --> 00:39:09.610
by that Palestinian Jew in Roman occupied Judea.

00:39:09.849 --> 00:39:12.880
All right. The invention of the printing press

00:39:12.880 --> 00:39:16.019
in the mid -15th century dramatically increased

00:39:16.019 --> 00:39:19.239
speed and scale at which religious texts and

00:39:19.239 --> 00:39:22.099
ideas could circulate, setting the stage for

00:39:22.099 --> 00:39:25.079
widespread religious debate and reform. And that's

00:39:25.079 --> 00:39:29.889
why this era is known as the Reformation. By

00:39:29.889 --> 00:39:32.190
the late medieval period or the Renaissance as

00:39:32.190 --> 00:39:35.349
we call it many Catholics began to argue that

00:39:35.349 --> 00:39:38.090
the church had strayed too far from that original

00:39:38.090 --> 00:39:42.409
message Reformers like Jan Hus and Martin Luther

00:39:42.409 --> 00:39:47.170
and John Calvin who were all clerics They protested

00:39:47.170 --> 00:39:50.469
church corruption. They protested abuses They

00:39:50.469 --> 00:39:53.429
gave name again to the movement the Protestant

00:39:53.429 --> 00:39:57.510
protesting Protestant Reformation this splintered

00:39:57.510 --> 00:40:01.699
the Western Church into multiple, often competing

00:40:01.699 --> 00:40:05.199
interests that all claimed sole religious authority

00:40:05.199 --> 00:40:09.219
and the correct understanding of Scripture. At

00:40:09.219 --> 00:40:11.699
the same time, the Catholic Church undertook

00:40:11.699 --> 00:40:14.460
its own reforms, often referred to as the Counter

00:40:14.460 --> 00:40:17.260
-Reformation, which sought to address internal

00:40:17.260 --> 00:40:22.429
corruption and clarified doctrine. Man, we are

00:40:22.429 --> 00:40:25.929
seeing love your neighbor Yes, love your neighbor

00:40:25.929 --> 00:40:29.230
give to the poor take care of one another everybody's

00:40:29.230 --> 00:40:32.550
welcome at my table is now about Oh, we don't

00:40:32.550 --> 00:40:34.550
think you're doing things right with these selling

00:40:34.550 --> 00:40:37.590
of indulgences Oh, well, let's fix that by changing

00:40:37.590 --> 00:40:40.269
out which priests and sending them off to a distant

00:40:40.489 --> 00:40:43.210
province in Nova Scotia somewhere, you know,

00:40:43.369 --> 00:40:47.889
it's, yeah. It's almost like what we're seeing

00:40:47.889 --> 00:40:51.570
in today's time where there's this deconstruction

00:40:51.570 --> 00:40:54.469
of faith, you know, that is occurring across,

00:40:54.469 --> 00:40:58.170
you know, believers, um, who have come to terms

00:40:58.170 --> 00:40:59.869
with the fact that, you know, what they were

00:40:59.869 --> 00:41:02.809
sold and what they were taught is not aligning

00:41:02.809 --> 00:41:09.250
with, with the vibe. Right. Um, but, but you

00:41:09.250 --> 00:41:11.849
also have churches now who are demonizing the

00:41:11.849 --> 00:41:14.610
idea of deconstruction and basically just saying

00:41:14.610 --> 00:41:17.710
we need to have that blind faith, you know, that

00:41:17.710 --> 00:41:19.809
faith of a mustard seed and all of that stuff.

00:41:20.590 --> 00:41:24.190
Because if we can't control the narrative singularly

00:41:24.190 --> 00:41:26.650
then we are threatened from without well the

00:41:26.650 --> 00:41:27.969
other thing I thought about too as we're going

00:41:27.969 --> 00:41:29.369
through history I just want to make this point

00:41:29.369 --> 00:41:32.650
is you know I can absolutely see why the people

00:41:32.650 --> 00:41:35.730
in power would want this to happen because Having

00:41:35.730 --> 00:41:38.610
a singular religion like this just allows them

00:41:38.610 --> 00:41:41.809
to control people even more because now Not only

00:41:41.809 --> 00:41:44.010
do they control them with the laws of the land

00:41:44.010 --> 00:41:45.789
and all of the things the taxes and all the things

00:41:45.789 --> 00:41:48.130
they have to do there now they can control their

00:41:48.130 --> 00:41:50.889
beliefs, you know, and now you're You've literally

00:41:50.889 --> 00:41:56.610
got your constituency, your population just completely

00:41:56.610 --> 00:42:01.449
in a bubble. And I think that Protestant reformers

00:42:01.449 --> 00:42:03.750
of the time deserve a lot of credit for shaking

00:42:03.750 --> 00:42:05.769
it up and popping that bubble a little bit. Yeah,

00:42:05.769 --> 00:42:08.980
yeah, I agree. I agree. They argued that faith

00:42:08.980 --> 00:42:11.019
and salvation were meant to be more personal

00:42:11.019 --> 00:42:13.679
too. This isn't about larger society. You're

00:42:13.679 --> 00:42:16.260
individuals and so your salvation should be more

00:42:16.260 --> 00:42:19.400
personal and emotional to you. They argued that

00:42:19.400 --> 00:42:22.539
people needed direct access to scripture rather

00:42:22.539 --> 00:42:25.059
than intercession by clergy. Number one way to

00:42:25.059 --> 00:42:27.699
give them that direct access, stop printing it

00:42:27.699 --> 00:42:30.119
in Latin and print it in the vernacular languages

00:42:30.119 --> 00:42:33.039
that people speak and maybe even can read. Right.

00:42:33.280 --> 00:42:38.460
Right? They argued that scripture alone had the

00:42:38.460 --> 00:42:41.440
authority over Christian life, not doctrine,

00:42:41.920 --> 00:42:45.380
not traditions, not practices, scripture alone.

00:42:45.780 --> 00:42:48.639
Okay. Only the Bible, which seems like a good

00:42:48.639 --> 00:42:51.300
idea for me to remind you all that even the Bible

00:42:51.300 --> 00:42:54.800
is not a history book. No, but it's it's scripture.

00:42:54.980 --> 00:42:58.369
It's the holy book, right? So, okay. These protestant

00:42:58.369 --> 00:43:01.789
reformers increasingly began to reject the infallibility

00:43:01.789 --> 00:43:05.050
of the Pope and Catholic doctrine and eventually

00:43:05.050 --> 00:43:07.889
rejected the authority of the Pope altogether.

00:43:07.889 --> 00:43:09.989
Wow. So like they're essentially trying to hold

00:43:09.989 --> 00:43:12.429
their it sounds like they're creating a level

00:43:12.429 --> 00:43:15.050
of accountability or at least trying trying to

00:43:15.050 --> 00:43:16.889
trying to write, put a level of accountability

00:43:16.889 --> 00:43:19.670
in here that, Hey, if this is the life, if this

00:43:19.670 --> 00:43:21.230
is the life that you choose to live, then live

00:43:21.230 --> 00:43:25.820
this life. Right and let the people who you claim

00:43:25.820 --> 00:43:29.619
to administer right let them decide when that

00:43:29.619 --> 00:43:31.460
is still serving them And if it doesn't serve

00:43:31.460 --> 00:43:33.780
them anymore give them the freedom to go. Yep

00:43:33.780 --> 00:43:38.260
Now there were other reformers too who had different

00:43:38.260 --> 00:43:41.980
designs notably King Henry the eighth of England

00:43:42.680 --> 00:43:45.860
You know him, I'm Henry VIII, I am Henry VIII,

00:43:45.860 --> 00:43:50.500
am I? Yes, you do. Henry VIII of England in the

00:43:50.500 --> 00:43:54.380
1530s broke with Rome over royal issues, specifically

00:43:54.380 --> 00:43:57.940
wanting to divorce his first wife. Yes. He created

00:43:57.940 --> 00:44:02.119
the Church of England now under the supreme authority

00:44:02.119 --> 00:44:05.179
of the English monarch and administered by the

00:44:05.179 --> 00:44:07.500
Archbishop of Canterbury, which remains the case

00:44:07.500 --> 00:44:10.340
with the Anglican Church today. The king is now

00:44:10.340 --> 00:44:12.179
the head of the church or I should say the monarch

00:44:12.179 --> 00:44:14.400
because sometimes it's a queen The monarch is

00:44:14.400 --> 00:44:16.739
the head of the church in England. The Pope has

00:44:16.739 --> 00:44:19.699
no more authority all of the English clerics

00:44:19.699 --> 00:44:23.059
are now going to become Anglican and they will

00:44:23.059 --> 00:44:26.380
submit to the will of the monarch Wow, the Church

00:44:26.380 --> 00:44:29.360
of England was by the way and remains the mother

00:44:29.360 --> 00:44:31.860
church of the Anglican communion Which includes

00:44:31.860 --> 00:44:34.699
among others the Episcopal Church of the United

00:44:34.699 --> 00:44:39.010
States, but I digress We'll stick with England

00:44:39.010 --> 00:44:41.789
for a little bit now because once again, that's

00:44:41.789 --> 00:44:43.929
where we're making the real connection to American

00:44:43.929 --> 00:44:47.869
Christianity sure There were other forms of Christianity

00:44:47.869 --> 00:44:51.090
Primarily Catholic in America before the English

00:44:51.090 --> 00:44:52.989
got here and we'll talk a little bit about them

00:44:52.989 --> 00:44:54.630
But we're not going to deal with them too much

00:44:54.630 --> 00:44:56.409
in their colonial form. We'll deal with them

00:44:56.409 --> 00:45:00.090
more as they come back later while the Church

00:45:00.090 --> 00:45:03.420
of England broke with Rome and replaced the English

00:45:03.420 --> 00:45:06.739
monarch at its head, it retained much of the

00:45:06.739 --> 00:45:09.159
Catholic doctrine and many of its practices.

00:45:10.039 --> 00:45:13.179
It also, under Henry's direction, undertook a

00:45:13.179 --> 00:45:16.800
campaign to brutally and bloodily suppress Catholicism.

00:45:16.820 --> 00:45:18.380
Of course, here we are, bloodshed. What's all

00:45:18.380 --> 00:45:19.800
about these people and these Christians and these

00:45:19.800 --> 00:45:21.960
people want to bloodshed? They just, I mean,

00:45:22.079 --> 00:45:24.380
like they, they sacrifice the homeboy, you know,

00:45:24.559 --> 00:45:27.340
original, like hammer nails in and stab him in

00:45:27.340 --> 00:45:29.840
the side. I mean, like, yo, these people, they

00:45:29.840 --> 00:45:32.539
need to... They need a hobby. They need Jesus.

00:45:33.500 --> 00:45:36.059
Henry even went on as far as to create his very

00:45:36.059 --> 00:45:39.840
own Christian martyr. He had his dear friend,

00:45:40.039 --> 00:45:42.679
Sir Thomas Moore, who was a cleric, beheaded

00:45:42.679 --> 00:45:46.079
in 1535 because Moore refused to convert and

00:45:46.079 --> 00:45:48.340
become an Anglican. He remained a Catholic. And

00:45:48.340 --> 00:45:51.179
so he is now Saint Thomas Moore because he's

00:45:51.179 --> 00:45:54.099
a Christian martyr. Now, during the reign of

00:45:54.099 --> 00:45:57.280
Henry's immediate successor, his son, Edward

00:45:57.280 --> 00:46:01.159
VI, firmer Protestant theologies started to gain

00:46:01.159 --> 00:46:03.719
more traction. Things like direct access to and

00:46:03.719 --> 00:46:06.599
single authority of scripture, simplified worship,

00:46:07.079 --> 00:46:08.980
faith is the only means of salvation, all those

00:46:08.980 --> 00:46:13.840
things. But Edward died young, in 1553, and his

00:46:13.840 --> 00:46:17.920
older sister, half -sister, Mary, who was a Catholic,

00:46:18.400 --> 00:46:21.829
ascended the throne. Mary the first tried to

00:46:21.829 --> 00:46:24.250
reverse the process of reformation to reclaim

00:46:24.250 --> 00:46:26.449
England for Rome. And as you might imagine, it

00:46:26.449 --> 00:46:29.789
was a deadly business. She did not earn the nickname

00:46:29.789 --> 00:46:34.809
Bloody Mary lightly. Nice. Hey, man, you know

00:46:34.809 --> 00:46:38.570
who I haven't mentioned for a few minutes? Jesus

00:46:38.570 --> 00:46:44.190
jebus. The origin story, man, this this really

00:46:44.320 --> 00:46:46.579
Isn't about him anymore, is it? At least not

00:46:46.579 --> 00:46:49.380
among those who hold power or influence. I know.

00:46:49.500 --> 00:46:52.260
I mean, at this point we haven't mentioned him

00:46:52.260 --> 00:46:56.460
or any of his teachings or any of the foundations

00:46:56.460 --> 00:46:59.699
of what he brought to or what he brought. No,

00:46:59.719 --> 00:47:02.380
like the foundations he used to build this original

00:47:02.380 --> 00:47:05.900
idea of a belief system. I mean, it's like, this

00:47:05.900 --> 00:47:08.500
is so, I mean, and we haven't really talked a

00:47:08.500 --> 00:47:11.579
lot about like what the belief structures are

00:47:11.579 --> 00:47:15.159
as we move through this because. It seems as

00:47:15.159 --> 00:47:17.440
though all of the key players are more focused

00:47:17.440 --> 00:47:19.519
on the power and the power structure and the

00:47:19.519 --> 00:47:22.400
power of vacuums and all of those things than

00:47:22.400 --> 00:47:25.179
they are anything about the actual teachings

00:47:25.179 --> 00:47:28.739
itself. It's more just about, we're all believing

00:47:28.739 --> 00:47:31.159
this, this is what we're doing. We're going through

00:47:31.159 --> 00:47:35.719
the motions. I mean, I just, I feel like that's,

00:47:36.739 --> 00:47:39.619
as you start to see the history of, of this religion

00:47:39.619 --> 00:47:42.059
and as it's being kind of deployed across the

00:47:42.059 --> 00:47:45.550
world. It's so easy to see now why it became

00:47:45.550 --> 00:47:48.670
so diluted. And I think that what we know as

00:47:48.670 --> 00:47:51.090
what, what we feel like the original message

00:47:51.090 --> 00:47:55.550
was to what we're seeing in 2026, vastly, vastly

00:47:55.550 --> 00:47:58.230
different. But I mean, it's just been, it's like,

00:47:58.369 --> 00:48:01.670
it's like, okay, like take, fill up a cup of

00:48:01.670 --> 00:48:04.250
water with like, or fill up a cup with sweet

00:48:04.250 --> 00:48:07.750
tea. Right. And then. You know, every hour put

00:48:07.750 --> 00:48:10.179
a teaspoon of water in there. Just keep putting

00:48:10.179 --> 00:48:12.280
a teaspoon of water every hour. Eventually there'll

00:48:12.280 --> 00:48:15.099
be no more tea. It's just water. Right. You know,

00:48:15.440 --> 00:48:17.900
I think that's what we're seeing with Christianity.

00:48:19.139 --> 00:48:22.260
Absolutely. And it wasn't incidental and it wasn't

00:48:22.260 --> 00:48:24.320
accidental. Right. It was all deliberate. This

00:48:24.320 --> 00:48:26.800
was all curated and it happened over and over

00:48:26.800 --> 00:48:31.300
and over again, a long, a long process as authority

00:48:31.300 --> 00:48:35.059
centralized and then diffused and then re centralized

00:48:35.059 --> 00:48:39.599
in a long. trajectory, Jesus often took a back

00:48:39.599 --> 00:48:43.099
seat or disappeared entirely and people notice.

00:48:43.300 --> 00:48:46.940
Well, I mean, at this point we have saints. We're,

00:48:46.940 --> 00:48:49.579
we're, we're creating saints now that people

00:48:49.579 --> 00:48:55.739
begin to worship. Or not worse. Okay. I will

00:48:55.739 --> 00:48:59.719
say, so as, as a Catholic, yes, I will say that.

00:48:59.880 --> 00:49:03.780
The idea of the sainthood was that these are

00:49:03.780 --> 00:49:08.219
people who have embodied and exemplified the

00:49:08.219 --> 00:49:10.840
faith. And so we revere them and we ask them

00:49:10.840 --> 00:49:14.900
to commune with us in a eternal communion. We

00:49:14.900 --> 00:49:19.460
don't worship. But to your point, a lot of the

00:49:19.460 --> 00:49:22.139
things people start to do with them, statues

00:49:22.139 --> 00:49:24.239
in their gardens or on their altars and things

00:49:24.239 --> 00:49:27.039
like that. Candles, bro. The candles. You can

00:49:27.039 --> 00:49:30.840
buy a bodega nowadays, bro. Yes, you know, Stephanie

00:49:30.840 --> 00:49:34.579
has one with the Virgin Mary. No, those kinds

00:49:34.579 --> 00:49:38.320
of these folk practices, right, that are pagan

00:49:38.320 --> 00:49:41.039
in their origin. Many of them, yes, creep in

00:49:41.039 --> 00:49:44.239
over time and they they color the religion. And

00:49:44.239 --> 00:49:47.579
yes, by the time we get to the English Anglican

00:49:47.579 --> 00:49:51.360
Church, saints and the Virgin herself are occupying

00:49:51.360 --> 00:49:54.840
as much mental space as Jesus. Right. Exactly.

00:49:55.019 --> 00:50:00.090
It's just fascinating. Yeah. Mary died in 1558

00:50:00.090 --> 00:50:02.210
which meant that the throne now belonged to her

00:50:02.210 --> 00:50:06.030
younger half -sister Elizabeth Elizabeth the

00:50:06.030 --> 00:50:08.489
first as Queen and head of the Church of England

00:50:08.489 --> 00:50:11.849
sought a compromise that would ensure an end

00:50:11.849 --> 00:50:15.130
to religious hostilities in the kingdom in England

00:50:15.130 --> 00:50:20.929
not Ireland or Scotland or but anyway The principles

00:50:20.929 --> 00:50:23.969
that Elizabeth established for the Anglican Church

00:50:23.969 --> 00:50:27.369
blended Protestant theology with Catholic ritual

00:50:27.369 --> 00:50:31.369
and similar hierarchy. So we're sort of, again,

00:50:31.510 --> 00:50:34.809
watering down both in order to make it, you know,

00:50:34.949 --> 00:50:37.230
appeasing to as many people. And that's exactly

00:50:37.230 --> 00:50:39.429
what she was trying to do. This settlement was

00:50:39.429 --> 00:50:42.610
meant to appease, absolutely. But there were

00:50:42.610 --> 00:50:45.289
some Protestants in the kingdom who remained

00:50:45.289 --> 00:50:49.369
unsatisfied with the lingering Catholicism. These

00:50:49.369 --> 00:50:53.320
people called themselves Puritans. They called

00:50:53.320 --> 00:50:56.099
themselves this for their desire to purify the

00:50:56.099 --> 00:50:58.780
Church of its Catholic influence, and they sought

00:50:58.780 --> 00:51:01.280
more primitive practices and moral discipline.

00:51:01.719 --> 00:51:05.039
They rejected the hierarchy of priests and bishops

00:51:05.039 --> 00:51:09.039
and advocated for congregational authority over

00:51:09.039 --> 00:51:11.480
the faith." So this is where the people are the

00:51:11.480 --> 00:51:14.639
Church idea has to start to infiltrate, man.

00:51:14.739 --> 00:51:19.219
The people are the Church. You would think oh,

00:51:19.239 --> 00:51:24.300
yeah It's right there. What are you doing? It's

00:51:24.300 --> 00:51:26.480
right there y 'all? I mean, this is fascinating.

00:51:26.480 --> 00:51:29.539
It's fascinating Okay, please the Puritans are

00:51:29.539 --> 00:51:31.659
some of my favorite people to talk about they're

00:51:31.659 --> 00:51:35.780
so okay. All right Puritans who were influenced

00:51:35.780 --> 00:51:39.719
by the reformed theologies of John Calvin adhered

00:51:39.719 --> 00:51:43.860
to some really really rigorous theological doctrines

00:51:43.860 --> 00:51:48.679
the absolute sovereignty of God There is nothing

00:51:48.679 --> 00:51:53.800
but God and Jesus of course right right The utter

00:51:53.800 --> 00:51:57.440
depravity of humanity we are fallen and there

00:51:57.440 --> 00:52:01.119
is no hope except for the absolute sovereignty

00:52:01.119 --> 00:52:04.440
of God, okay, and Finally and this is the weirdest

00:52:04.440 --> 00:52:06.619
one the one that modern people had the hardest

00:52:06.619 --> 00:52:09.659
time wrapping their brains around predestination

00:52:09.659 --> 00:52:14.300
The concept that God had personally chosen a

00:52:14.300 --> 00:52:17.710
small group known as the elect for salvation

00:52:17.710 --> 00:52:21.050
before they were even born and everyone else

00:52:21.050 --> 00:52:24.429
was condemned for damnation. And there was nothing

00:52:24.429 --> 00:52:28.349
you could do about it. Oh, wow. Powerless. So

00:52:28.349 --> 00:52:31.829
so they're just they're like, honestly, they're

00:52:31.829 --> 00:52:37.250
ripping Judeo belief at this point. Pretty much

00:52:37.250 --> 00:52:40.090
in a lot of ways, very primitive kind of right.

00:52:40.349 --> 00:52:44.329
The chosen peoples, if you will. They co -opted

00:52:44.329 --> 00:52:47.409
that essentially, and now they are the chosen

00:52:47.409 --> 00:52:51.110
people. And as you can imagine, those chosen

00:52:51.110 --> 00:52:55.329
people, the elect, the people who have wealth

00:52:55.329 --> 00:52:57.769
and success and power and influence, they assume

00:52:57.769 --> 00:52:59.869
that they must be the elect, which means everybody

00:52:59.869 --> 00:53:03.269
else must be cursed to eternal damnation. And

00:53:03.269 --> 00:53:07.309
again, there's nothing anybody can do about this.

00:53:07.449 --> 00:53:09.969
You're predestined from birth. So if you are

00:53:09.969 --> 00:53:12.579
a member of the elect, Live a good righteous

00:53:12.579 --> 00:53:15.360
life on earth. And if you are a member of the

00:53:15.360 --> 00:53:18.340
damned, live a good righteous life on earth because

00:53:18.340 --> 00:53:20.460
he's still God and he could change his mind,

00:53:20.460 --> 00:53:28.440
but he's not going to. Like I said, this is extreme.

00:53:29.000 --> 00:53:31.960
The Puritans tended to be rather severe, rather

00:53:31.960 --> 00:53:36.460
austere, not a lot of fun at parties. And these

00:53:36.460 --> 00:53:39.420
were not casual belief systems. They structured

00:53:39.420 --> 00:53:43.139
daily life. discipline, authority, in really,

00:53:43.139 --> 00:53:45.980
really intense ways that often meant that people

00:53:45.980 --> 00:53:49.480
were going to get hurt by the Puritans. And we'll

00:53:49.480 --> 00:53:53.460
get there, I promise. Before we get there fully,

00:53:54.579 --> 00:53:59.619
in 1604, Elizabeth's successor, James I, commissioned

00:53:59.619 --> 00:54:03.239
an English translation of the Bible. When it

00:54:03.239 --> 00:54:07.139
was published in 1611, Several of the original

00:54:07.139 --> 00:54:10.199
books were removed from their chronological order

00:54:10.199 --> 00:54:13.260
that they had been in and placed together between

00:54:13.260 --> 00:54:16.500
the Old and New Testaments. These books came

00:54:16.500 --> 00:54:22.099
to be known as the Apocrypha. Huh? Puritans rejected

00:54:22.099 --> 00:54:24.420
the King James Version of the Bible for many

00:54:24.420 --> 00:54:27.300
reasons. For one, it came from the king and they

00:54:27.300 --> 00:54:28.900
didn't believe that it should come from the king.

00:54:28.900 --> 00:54:30.780
It should come from the only king, which was

00:54:30.780 --> 00:54:34.460
God. Right? Yes. They also rejected it because

00:54:34.460 --> 00:54:37.699
the King James Version didn't have any of the

00:54:37.699 --> 00:54:39.920
Calvinist annotations in the margins, which were

00:54:39.920 --> 00:54:42.559
often interpreted as anti -monarchial, and so

00:54:42.559 --> 00:54:44.840
the Puritans didn't want any part of that, and

00:54:44.840 --> 00:54:46.960
they rejected it because of the inclusion of

00:54:46.960 --> 00:54:49.619
the Apocrypha, which they believed was not part

00:54:49.619 --> 00:54:53.130
of the inspired Word of God. The Puritans believed

00:54:53.130 --> 00:54:55.130
that the books of the Apocrypha had been written

00:54:55.130 --> 00:54:58.110
in the centuries after the Old and New Testaments,

00:54:58.530 --> 00:55:00.789
and so this would be something that they would

00:55:00.789 --> 00:55:03.289
need to purify from the Church if they ever found

00:55:03.289 --> 00:55:07.769
themselves in control. Wow. But there's still

00:55:07.769 --> 00:55:12.610
a more radical group. Jesus Christ! A more radical

00:55:12.610 --> 00:55:16.619
group who were also Puritans. decided that they

00:55:16.619 --> 00:55:19.260
didn't want to bother with purifying the church

00:55:19.260 --> 00:55:21.960
from the inside. They wanted to break with the

00:55:21.960 --> 00:55:25.519
English church completely. Okay. History often

00:55:25.519 --> 00:55:29.219
refers to these radicals as separatists. In the

00:55:29.219 --> 00:55:32.420
United States, we more familiar, familiarly remember

00:55:32.420 --> 00:55:36.360
them as pilgrims. Oh, love it. Love it. So just

00:55:36.360 --> 00:55:39.280
to keep track, how many versions of Christianity

00:55:39.280 --> 00:55:43.099
do we have now at this point at 1611, essentially,

00:55:43.539 --> 00:55:47.369
in our time in history? No less than 10. I think

00:55:47.369 --> 00:55:51.170
right. Yeah, it's it's about 16 at 16 11 y 'all

00:55:51.170 --> 00:55:53.670
and this is like I mean, we're only a few hundred

00:55:53.670 --> 00:55:57.349
years, which I mean, you know can be a long time,

00:55:57.409 --> 00:56:00.650
but we're just a few hundred years into this

00:56:00.650 --> 00:56:03.170
and we're already sponsored off into this many

00:56:03.170 --> 00:56:07.949
versions of the religion. Right now it has to

00:56:07.949 --> 00:56:09.789
be said that breaking with the Church of England

00:56:09.789 --> 00:56:13.570
comes with dangers. Oh, yeah. Since the king

00:56:13.570 --> 00:56:15.710
or the monarch is the head of the church, if

00:56:15.710 --> 00:56:18.590
you break with the church, then you are challenging

00:56:18.590 --> 00:56:21.530
the king's authority. So it's not really safe

00:56:21.530 --> 00:56:23.989
for these separatists to stick around in England.

00:56:24.809 --> 00:56:28.329
There was a political and a law enforcement pressure

00:56:28.329 --> 00:56:30.809
on them, which caused them to seek an escape.

00:56:31.670 --> 00:56:34.849
Many of them went to the Netherlands, where society

00:56:34.849 --> 00:56:39.110
was generally more religiously tolerant. In fact,

00:56:39.389 --> 00:56:42.190
The separatists found the Netherlands to be too

00:56:42.190 --> 00:56:45.070
tolerant. They were allowing too many things

00:56:45.070 --> 00:56:46.969
to go on that the separatists didn't agree with.

00:56:47.570 --> 00:56:52.110
So in 1620, 102 people boarded a ship called

00:56:52.110 --> 00:56:54.610
the Mayflower, and they set sail for the New

00:56:54.610 --> 00:56:58.650
World. They carried with them a faith that had

00:56:58.650 --> 00:57:02.710
now been shaped by centuries of conflict, corruption,

00:57:03.230 --> 00:57:08.050
oppression, and reinterpretation. It was as political

00:57:08.050 --> 00:57:13.389
as it was spiritual, if not more so. The Puritan

00:57:13.389 --> 00:57:16.489
or excuse me, the separatists goal was to make

00:57:16.489 --> 00:57:19.630
a community where their preferred version of

00:57:19.630 --> 00:57:23.389
the original message could thrive. And whether

00:57:23.389 --> 00:57:26.090
Jesus was on that ship with them or whether they

00:57:26.090 --> 00:57:29.610
found him waiting when they got here, let's just

00:57:29.610 --> 00:57:33.849
say there are some doubts. Yeah. Just a, just

00:57:33.849 --> 00:57:37.719
a few doubts, you know, so I mean, if the version

00:57:37.719 --> 00:57:41.139
of Christianity that arrives in America is already

00:57:41.139 --> 00:57:46.880
shaped by power, conflict, and reinvention, what

00:57:46.880 --> 00:57:50.940
exactly are people defending when they say that

00:57:50.940 --> 00:57:57.860
this is a Christian nation? That is indeed the

00:57:57.860 --> 00:58:04.000
big question. All right. So, Hey everybody, I'm

00:58:04.000 --> 00:58:05.599
Jeremy. Just wanted to kind of take a moment

00:58:05.599 --> 00:58:08.239
to reintroduce myself. I mean, anybody that's

00:58:08.239 --> 00:58:10.599
been with us through the last, uh, a couple of

00:58:10.599 --> 00:58:12.280
seasons, we certainly appreciate you listening

00:58:12.280 --> 00:58:14.880
along. Um, and hope that you enjoy what we have,

00:58:14.880 --> 00:58:16.820
but putting together for you, uh, this season,

00:58:17.139 --> 00:58:22.980
um, you know, in regards to. our season on Christian

00:58:22.980 --> 00:58:24.820
nationalism. I mean, you know, as we said early

00:58:24.820 --> 00:58:26.280
on, this was something that we've been wanting

00:58:26.280 --> 00:58:28.619
to do for a while. And one of the reasons why

00:58:28.619 --> 00:58:30.840
we wanted to do it is because it's had such an

00:58:30.840 --> 00:58:33.900
impact on our lives. Um, you know, Jimmy and

00:58:33.900 --> 00:58:35.820
I grew up down the road for, I mean, literally

00:58:35.820 --> 00:58:38.139
what four houses, I think three or four houses

00:58:38.139 --> 00:58:40.579
down the road from each other. Um, you know,

00:58:40.579 --> 00:58:43.679
his, his home was very different than my home

00:58:43.679 --> 00:58:45.539
in the sense of what the belief structure was

00:58:45.539 --> 00:58:50.059
and kind of how we, um, participated in our religions.

00:58:50.699 --> 00:58:53.579
But we were both very, very active. Um, I mean,

00:58:53.659 --> 00:58:55.699
as a, as a young child, I mean, I spent a lot

00:58:55.699 --> 00:58:58.239
of time in churches. My parents were, you know,

00:58:58.239 --> 00:59:01.199
uh, eventually became pastors themselves. You

00:59:01.199 --> 00:59:04.500
know, so I spent, you know, I think the, the

00:59:04.500 --> 00:59:06.219
idea of like, if the church doors were opened,

00:59:06.239 --> 00:59:08.860
I was there, you know, up until my late, late,

00:59:08.960 --> 00:59:13.599
late teens. Um, I, you know, when, when all of

00:59:13.599 --> 00:59:16.579
my friends were going off to college, And, you

00:59:16.579 --> 00:59:19.840
know, having fun and partying and learning about

00:59:19.840 --> 00:59:21.840
learning about the world. I was in a gospel band.

00:59:22.039 --> 00:59:23.420
As a matter of fact, Jimmy and I were both in

00:59:23.420 --> 00:59:26.840
a gospel band together and we were playing in

00:59:26.840 --> 00:59:29.699
churches and trying to convert people, uh, you

00:59:29.699 --> 00:59:33.239
know, with the, with the, the word of the Lord.

00:59:34.179 --> 00:59:37.510
Um, I mean, I have. been a parts of churches

00:59:37.510 --> 00:59:39.730
that have played, you know, music in church that

00:59:39.730 --> 00:59:42.269
have been parts of many, many ministry teams.

00:59:42.730 --> 00:59:45.909
Um, you know, youth groups, all of that. I mean,

00:59:45.909 --> 00:59:50.969
I was very, very involved. And then I went off

00:59:50.969 --> 00:59:54.949
to college and, you know, still was very involved

00:59:54.949 --> 00:59:57.449
for a couple of years. Uh, and I started to take

00:59:57.449 --> 01:00:01.369
some classes around religion and I was already

01:00:01.369 --> 01:00:04.900
getting to have some. Questions. I had already,

01:00:04.900 --> 01:00:06.960
I had always had questions about the religion,

01:00:07.420 --> 01:00:10.900
but up till that point, it was always just like

01:00:10.900 --> 01:00:13.719
believe faith, you know, blah, blah, blah, God,

01:00:13.760 --> 01:00:16.940
you know, mustard seed faith is whatever, you

01:00:16.940 --> 01:00:19.500
know, as a kid, you just, I just did that. Um,

01:00:20.300 --> 01:00:21.980
I started, you know, again, taking classes and

01:00:21.980 --> 01:00:23.559
started to have some questions for myself. I

01:00:23.559 --> 01:00:25.280
mean, it started to see some things that didn't

01:00:25.280 --> 01:00:28.840
quite align, you know, with what I had been taught

01:00:28.840 --> 01:00:32.619
as a kid. Um, Then I just saw the, the, the,

01:00:32.719 --> 01:00:36.239
I really began to see the religion itself evolving

01:00:36.239 --> 01:00:40.159
in a way where, you know, the, that fundamentalist

01:00:40.159 --> 01:00:42.340
like lifestyle that I was a part of where we

01:00:42.340 --> 01:00:46.260
really lived being a Christian became very diluted.

01:00:46.260 --> 01:00:48.179
You know, I mean, beginning to see people like

01:00:48.179 --> 01:00:50.500
with social media, the ones that would post on

01:00:50.500 --> 01:00:53.039
Sundays about going to church with their families

01:00:53.039 --> 01:00:55.099
and their Sunday best, but then like Friday,

01:00:55.239 --> 01:00:56.980
it was them like posting with, you know, drinking

01:00:56.980 --> 01:00:59.599
beers and stuff. And I mean, I, I. do whatever

01:00:59.599 --> 01:01:01.440
you want to, I could care less what you do in

01:01:01.440 --> 01:01:04.059
your life. But I am from a school of thought

01:01:04.059 --> 01:01:06.099
that like, if you are a Christian, you profess

01:01:06.099 --> 01:01:07.780
to be a Christian, you live a Christian lifestyle,

01:01:07.800 --> 01:01:10.000
you don't do these things. I mean, you represent

01:01:10.000 --> 01:01:14.219
it to the nth degree. Um, my family went through

01:01:14.219 --> 01:01:16.800
all kinds of trials and tribulations through

01:01:16.800 --> 01:01:18.719
churches. We helped start a church that completely

01:01:18.719 --> 01:01:22.099
turned its back on us. Um, when my parents went

01:01:22.099 --> 01:01:24.360
through a divorce, uh, I've watched my parents

01:01:24.360 --> 01:01:27.460
start and close more churches than I can count.

01:01:30.849 --> 01:01:33.170
I ran a business for my parents out of their

01:01:33.170 --> 01:01:36.110
home while my mom would do church services and

01:01:36.110 --> 01:01:38.710
have women screaming at the top of their lungs,

01:01:39.030 --> 01:01:40.750
worshiping God, I guess. Well, I'm trying to

01:01:40.750 --> 01:01:43.329
make phone calls to clients and sell advertising.

01:01:45.090 --> 01:01:47.489
Um, so Jimmy and I had both, and I'm not going

01:01:47.489 --> 01:01:49.369
to speak for him. He's got his own experiences.

01:01:49.710 --> 01:01:52.829
Um, but, but we both been very, very influenced

01:01:52.829 --> 01:01:56.010
and affected by religion in our lives. I mean,

01:01:56.010 --> 01:01:59.230
our parents, you know, both of our parents. Not

01:01:59.230 --> 01:02:01.469
both parents necessarily, but both of our parents

01:02:01.469 --> 01:02:04.210
and we have at least a parent that is like way

01:02:04.210 --> 01:02:07.369
has way drank the Kool -Aid and has made it their

01:02:07.369 --> 01:02:13.309
entire identity. You know, um, but for me, the

01:02:13.309 --> 01:02:16.929
deconstruction occurred over a period of several,

01:02:17.090 --> 01:02:20.900
several years, you know, where. I saw the hypocrisy

01:02:20.900 --> 01:02:22.739
and always seen the hypocrisy, but it became

01:02:22.739 --> 01:02:25.559
more of a sticking point for me. And then eventually,

01:02:25.559 --> 01:02:28.280
you know, we got to kind of where we are today

01:02:28.280 --> 01:02:31.199
in our political and religious landscape. And

01:02:31.199 --> 01:02:33.760
I was just so disgusted by it that, you know,

01:02:33.840 --> 01:02:35.960
obviously, I mean, well, obviously, but I turned

01:02:35.960 --> 01:02:38.119
completely away from it. I went from agnostic

01:02:38.119 --> 01:02:41.300
to atheist to a whole different, you know, belief

01:02:41.300 --> 01:02:46.380
system now that is not rooted in any of the Judeo

01:02:46.380 --> 01:02:51.079
Christian, you know, beliefs now. But that was,

01:02:51.079 --> 01:02:52.860
you know, that's essentially my journey. And

01:02:52.860 --> 01:02:55.119
I think that's one of the reasons why I am so

01:02:55.119 --> 01:02:57.280
excited to talk about this because, you know,

01:02:57.320 --> 01:03:01.519
for something that was meant to be. I think almost

01:03:01.519 --> 01:03:04.599
a liberation for people to give them hope, you

01:03:04.599 --> 01:03:06.599
know, to be that silver lining in their lives.

01:03:06.800 --> 01:03:11.260
It has really been the arbiter of so much damage

01:03:11.260 --> 01:03:14.820
for so many people. I mean, as you go through

01:03:14.820 --> 01:03:19.300
the stories, you hear about. So many people affected

01:03:19.300 --> 01:03:21.900
negatively. And I mean, it can be some of the

01:03:21.900 --> 01:03:25.599
most horrific crimes up to just, I mean, to just

01:03:25.599 --> 01:03:29.119
like having, having a church family turn their

01:03:29.119 --> 01:03:31.219
back on you when you really needed them the most.

01:03:31.579 --> 01:03:33.739
I mean, and that's what happened to me and my

01:03:33.739 --> 01:03:36.820
family. And, you know, I'm ready to dive into

01:03:36.820 --> 01:03:42.190
this. Yeah. So, um, Reintroduce myself as well.

01:03:42.309 --> 01:03:45.349
I'm Jimmy. As Jeremy said, we had very different

01:03:45.349 --> 01:03:47.510
religious upbringings, although we both were

01:03:47.510 --> 01:03:52.349
very active. My dad is Catholic. My mom was raised

01:03:52.349 --> 01:03:56.150
Episcopalian. I was baptized Episcopalian, spent

01:03:56.150 --> 01:03:59.090
much of my life in that church, some time with

01:03:59.090 --> 01:04:01.190
the Methodists, not much, mostly when my mom

01:04:01.190 --> 01:04:03.389
was working as a church musician for the Methodist

01:04:03.389 --> 01:04:07.980
Church. The Anglican Catholic Church was a whole

01:04:07.980 --> 01:04:10.280
other thing and then in my adult life I was confirmed

01:04:10.280 --> 01:04:14.199
Roman Catholic like my dad and now I have become

01:04:14.199 --> 01:04:16.820
Part of the largest single Christian denomination

01:04:16.820 --> 01:04:20.579
in the world the lapsed Catholics those of us

01:04:20.579 --> 01:04:27.539
who once upon a time were Catholics my My experience

01:04:27.539 --> 01:04:30.440
with religious authority was mostly if a person

01:04:30.440 --> 01:04:32.650
wasn't wearing one of those little white priests

01:04:32.650 --> 01:04:34.630
collars then they didn't have to talk to me they

01:04:34.630 --> 01:04:36.070
didn't have anything to say to me about religion

01:04:36.070 --> 01:04:39.150
that I didn't already know but of course what

01:04:39.150 --> 01:04:41.610
I already knew was very shaped by you know lots

01:04:41.610 --> 01:04:46.210
of weird stuff when I was a kid as a teenager

01:04:46.539 --> 01:04:49.300
When I was in the gospel band, I was still that

01:04:49.300 --> 01:04:51.579
was sort of my exposure to a more fundamentalist

01:04:51.579 --> 01:04:53.820
evangelical kind of Christianity, but I was still

01:04:53.820 --> 01:04:56.360
very involved in the more liturgical kind of

01:04:56.360 --> 01:04:59.920
upbringing, including being forced to go to church,

01:04:59.920 --> 01:05:02.219
you know, two straight weeks in a row around

01:05:02.219 --> 01:05:07.119
Easter time every single day by a man who was

01:05:07.119 --> 01:05:10.360
mentally, emotionally and even physically abusive.

01:05:10.639 --> 01:05:13.320
So this was not my father. This is my grandfather.

01:05:15.299 --> 01:05:17.800
It was you know, so there's a lot there's a lot

01:05:17.800 --> 01:05:20.460
going on there and then as I grow up I was in

01:05:20.460 --> 01:05:23.719
the military and then I decided to go to school

01:05:23.719 --> 01:05:27.599
and as I started studying more I became a historian

01:05:27.599 --> 01:05:30.639
a public historian, you know digital humanists

01:05:30.639 --> 01:05:32.380
don't ask me to define that we're still trying

01:05:32.380 --> 01:05:35.980
to figure out what exactly that means and Of

01:05:35.980 --> 01:05:38.420
course a college professor and a Pisces and I

01:05:38.420 --> 01:05:41.659
like long walks in the beach. Oh, yeah you know

01:05:41.659 --> 01:05:43.460
with all of these things I have seen so much

01:05:43.460 --> 01:05:46.360
of the world be sort of As Jeremy said earlier,

01:05:46.360 --> 01:05:48.920
we're pulling back that curtain and we're revealing

01:05:48.920 --> 01:05:52.199
what's been obscured for us for so long. And

01:05:52.199 --> 01:05:57.239
I'm, I am with, I have come so far to where what

01:05:57.239 --> 01:05:59.960
I used to believe when I was five years old and

01:05:59.960 --> 01:06:02.380
somehow at five years old accepted Jesus Christ

01:06:02.380 --> 01:06:06.980
as my savior at five years old. Bro, I was five

01:06:06.980 --> 01:06:09.880
years old too. Man, like what is it about that

01:06:09.880 --> 01:06:13.380
age? I swear to God, bro. I was five years old

01:06:13.380 --> 01:06:16.280
when I accepted Jesus. And my aunt is the one

01:06:16.280 --> 01:06:19.239
who led me to him. Man, it's like, what a weird

01:06:19.239 --> 01:06:20.780
concept that at five years old, I'm supposed

01:06:20.780 --> 01:06:24.760
to understand my cosmic mortality and who I am.

01:06:24.760 --> 01:06:26.739
I'm a Christian now. All right. Yeah, exactly.

01:06:27.579 --> 01:06:34.119
I am again. I have recently sort of called myself

01:06:34.119 --> 01:06:38.039
varying degrees between a struggling agnostic

01:06:38.039 --> 01:06:42.300
to maybe a moral atheist. I'm not sure where

01:06:42.300 --> 01:06:46.219
I fall. I don't believe in nothing, but I don't

01:06:46.219 --> 01:06:48.619
know what I believe in, and it's certainly not

01:06:48.619 --> 01:06:53.679
what I was raised in. So the damage, the harm

01:06:53.679 --> 01:06:55.880
that has been done to me, I'm with you. I'm very

01:06:55.880 --> 01:07:01.000
excited to see where this goes. And so what we're

01:07:01.000 --> 01:07:03.099
arguing this season, the whole point of this

01:07:03.099 --> 01:07:07.150
season is to argue that... It isn't just that

01:07:07.150 --> 01:07:10.550
Christian nationalism is dangerous in a political

01:07:10.550 --> 01:07:14.550
or a social sense. It's been, as we said, deliberately

01:07:14.550 --> 01:07:18.570
built over time. It has been reshaped and reworked

01:07:18.570 --> 01:07:21.590
in ways that don't really line up with the teachings

01:07:21.590 --> 01:07:27.550
that it claims to stand on. That has involved

01:07:27.550 --> 01:07:32.940
so much damage to people. I mean again hundreds

01:07:32.940 --> 01:07:35.559
and hundreds of years at a minimum but really

01:07:35.559 --> 01:07:38.360
going all the way back to the Generation following

01:07:38.360 --> 01:07:40.800
Jesus's death this whole thing got turned and

01:07:40.800 --> 01:07:43.039
when it gets to the United States or well when

01:07:43.039 --> 01:07:47.000
it gets to America Well, that's what we're claiming

01:07:47.000 --> 01:07:49.179
right that this is politically and social dangerous

01:07:49.179 --> 01:07:51.360
and that it's deliberate and it's happened over

01:07:51.360 --> 01:07:54.219
a long time You're right. I mean you're exactly

01:07:54.219 --> 01:07:56.000
right. I mean I said it's happened for a long

01:07:56.000 --> 01:08:01.170
time. I mean, I think the The internal struggle

01:08:01.170 --> 01:08:03.510
with me was that the things that I was taught,

01:08:03.510 --> 01:08:05.869
you know, about Jesus and like what he stood

01:08:05.869 --> 01:08:07.769
for. And then the things that I were seeing by

01:08:07.769 --> 01:08:09.389
the people who were teaching me these things

01:08:09.389 --> 01:08:12.750
was like, like how it's like, how do I, how do

01:08:12.750 --> 01:08:15.690
I resolve that? You know, that conflict and it's

01:08:15.690 --> 01:08:18.569
really hard, you know? I mean, and let's just,

01:08:18.609 --> 01:08:20.810
and let's be honest. I mean, a lot of this, a

01:08:20.810 --> 01:08:22.970
lot of this conversation is going to come out

01:08:22.970 --> 01:08:25.289
of our own personal frustrations with the religion.

01:08:25.630 --> 01:08:27.630
I mean, what, what it's done to us personally,

01:08:28.109 --> 01:08:30.510
what it's done to our families. I mean, and what

01:08:30.510 --> 01:08:32.909
it's done to people that we really care about.

01:08:33.649 --> 01:08:36.050
Um, and I mean, honestly, the things that we've

01:08:36.050 --> 01:08:37.989
seen and we've heard in the name of Christianity,

01:08:38.369 --> 01:08:41.489
I mean, there's just, we, we both have navigated

01:08:41.489 --> 01:08:43.170
a life where a lot of the things that we have

01:08:43.170 --> 01:08:45.470
seen and heard feel wrong. You know, they feel

01:08:45.470 --> 01:08:48.149
wrong politically, they feel wrong historically,

01:08:48.149 --> 01:08:53.770
and they feel wrong morally. Yeah. And for a

01:08:53.770 --> 01:08:56.350
long time, I think these conversations felt like.

01:08:56.560 --> 01:08:59.939
They were impossible to have and not because

01:08:59.939 --> 01:09:01.859
the questions weren't valid questions. These

01:09:01.859 --> 01:09:05.380
are valid questions, but because whenever we

01:09:05.380 --> 01:09:08.359
tried to ask those questions, those conversations

01:09:08.359 --> 01:09:11.760
got shut down in places where we thought we were

01:09:11.760 --> 01:09:13.880
supposed to be able to ask questions and by people

01:09:13.880 --> 01:09:16.939
we thought would tell us the truth road. I mean

01:09:16.939 --> 01:09:20.220
like we. I know, I know you remember this cause

01:09:20.220 --> 01:09:23.000
we talk about it, but we sat in my freaking laundry

01:09:23.000 --> 01:09:26.880
room and called all my pastor, my pastor, pastor

01:09:26.880 --> 01:09:29.920
cow to ask him if saying GD, God damn it was

01:09:29.920 --> 01:09:32.739
a sin. Right. Right. And what did we get? We

01:09:32.739 --> 01:09:35.199
got a whole long bullshit thing about Catholics

01:09:35.199 --> 01:09:37.180
and all this bullshit. Do you remember that?

01:09:37.300 --> 01:09:42.060
I know you, I know you, and we got such a non

01:09:42.060 --> 01:09:46.899
answer that we It was me, you, Brian, Chris,

01:09:46.899 --> 01:09:49.479
and Josh. And the five of us argued after we

01:09:49.479 --> 01:09:52.060
got off the phone from arguing before we got

01:09:52.060 --> 01:09:56.300
on the phone. Yep. I told us, Oh my God. Yeah.

01:09:56.420 --> 01:10:00.920
So, I mean, the bottom line is that this season

01:10:00.920 --> 01:10:04.439
is an opportunity for us, for Jimmy and myself

01:10:04.439 --> 01:10:07.380
to finally have these conversations, you know,

01:10:07.520 --> 01:10:10.239
uh, but You know, we're trying to go about it

01:10:10.239 --> 01:10:12.199
and we really are trying to go about it carefully,

01:10:12.199 --> 01:10:16.560
if not somewhat irreverently. Um, we'll bring

01:10:16.560 --> 01:10:19.100
the receipts. Don't you worry about that. And

01:10:19.100 --> 01:10:22.079
we invite anyone listening to really just weigh

01:10:22.079 --> 01:10:24.039
it out for yourselves. I mean, you know, to be

01:10:24.039 --> 01:10:27.279
very, very clear, like our intent is not to turn

01:10:27.279 --> 01:10:29.680
someone away from a belief system at all. It

01:10:29.680 --> 01:10:31.920
is really to share like we have in the past,

01:10:32.000 --> 01:10:34.359
what we observe, you know, looking at the historical

01:10:34.359 --> 01:10:37.460
perspective and breaking this down in a way that.

01:10:37.640 --> 01:10:41.220
We, the two of us, Jimmy and myself can relate

01:10:41.220 --> 01:10:44.899
to, you know, because we have spent a lifetime,

01:10:46.439 --> 01:10:48.939
honestly, trying to unpack this whole thing because

01:10:48.939 --> 01:10:52.000
we had seen the impacts it's had on ourselves,

01:10:52.319 --> 01:10:55.359
on our families, on friends. I mean, we've seen

01:10:55.359 --> 01:10:58.199
the good, we've seen the bad, and we've seen

01:10:58.199 --> 01:11:01.960
a lot of bad. And the crazy thing is I still

01:11:01.960 --> 01:11:05.319
have so much trauma. having been raised in the

01:11:05.319 --> 01:11:08.020
church, the fear tactics that they used, I mean,

01:11:08.100 --> 01:11:11.060
on me as an early child, you know, with the rapture

01:11:11.060 --> 01:11:14.060
and the end of times and all of this, the satanic

01:11:14.060 --> 01:11:16.340
panic. I grew up right in the middle of the satanic

01:11:16.340 --> 01:11:19.560
panic where like, it was a very real conversation

01:11:19.560 --> 01:11:21.359
that a parent would have with their child that,

01:11:21.500 --> 01:11:24.060
Hey, if someone abducts you, just say the name

01:11:24.060 --> 01:11:26.659
of Jesus and a bright light will come save you.

01:11:26.800 --> 01:11:30.590
That was my... Survival strategy if I was ever

01:11:30.590 --> 01:11:33.510
abducted as a kid I was absolutely certain that

01:11:33.510 --> 01:11:35.829
if Jason Voorhees or Freddy Krueger ever broke

01:11:35.829 --> 01:11:37.670
into my room at night All I would have to say

01:11:37.670 --> 01:11:40.470
is I'm protected by Jesus and they would just

01:11:40.470 --> 01:11:42.909
politely turn and walk the fuck out the door

01:11:42.909 --> 01:11:46.170
Exactly. And this is in like and the funny thing

01:11:46.170 --> 01:11:48.710
is that like not only did we live with the fallacy

01:11:48.710 --> 01:11:50.789
that saying Calling out the name of Jesus was

01:11:50.789 --> 01:11:52.510
going to somehow save us, but we really live

01:11:52.510 --> 01:11:55.229
with the fallacy that these demons quote unquote

01:11:55.229 --> 01:11:59.189
J Jason and Freddie, you know, demons walked

01:11:59.189 --> 01:12:02.449
around our world and they would come into possess

01:12:02.449 --> 01:12:04.810
you and fuck you up at any given turn. I mean,

01:12:04.890 --> 01:12:07.270
like literally, literally this was the world

01:12:07.270 --> 01:12:12.369
I lived in as a child, you know? Um, and adults

01:12:12.369 --> 01:12:13.869
were just like, yeah, this is the way it is,

01:12:13.970 --> 01:12:16.819
bro. Like I had, I had a youth pastor tell me

01:12:16.819 --> 01:12:19.300
about a quote unquote demon who walked around

01:12:19.300 --> 01:12:21.500
his bed at night and he could hear the claws

01:12:21.500 --> 01:12:24.060
walking on the linoleum and it sat down on his

01:12:24.060 --> 01:12:27.899
bed. And yo, I was like nine, 10 years old. And

01:12:27.899 --> 01:12:31.060
I'm like, wow, what in the actual fuck? Yeah.

01:12:31.920 --> 01:12:34.060
I once had a Baptist minister tell me I was going

01:12:34.060 --> 01:12:40.399
to hell for being a Catholic. So. So that's what

01:12:40.399 --> 01:12:43.140
we're doing. Now I think it's fair to say a couple

01:12:43.140 --> 01:12:45.159
of things that we're not doing in this season,

01:12:45.319 --> 01:12:51.300
right? We're not indicting anyone's individual

01:12:51.300 --> 01:12:54.039
beliefs or lack thereof. You believe what you

01:12:54.039 --> 01:12:56.500
want to. If you're listening to this, we're not

01:12:56.500 --> 01:12:59.880
about coming after your beliefs, right? This

01:12:59.880 --> 01:13:03.899
is about holding a specific ideology accountable.

01:13:05.419 --> 01:13:07.720
Christian nationalism is what we're tracing here,

01:13:07.960 --> 01:13:10.520
not Christianity itself, not any religion really

01:13:10.520 --> 01:13:13.819
itself. Again, this is more specific. In this

01:13:13.819 --> 01:13:16.739
episode, we have laid the groundwork for American

01:13:16.739 --> 01:13:20.000
Christian nationalism with a rough sketch, really

01:13:20.000 --> 01:13:22.659
rough sketch of where Christianity had come from,

01:13:23.020 --> 01:13:25.520
how it had already evolved before it got here.

01:13:26.289 --> 01:13:29.550
Over the next few episodes, we will unpack its

01:13:29.550 --> 01:13:32.850
adaptation into English colonial society through

01:13:32.850 --> 01:13:35.770
the revolutionary era and into the early United

01:13:35.770 --> 01:13:39.090
States. And we'll keep a list of guiding questions

01:13:39.090 --> 01:13:42.710
moving forward. Yeah, like what precise what

01:13:42.710 --> 01:13:45.710
precisely do we mean by Christian nationalism?

01:13:46.369 --> 01:13:48.569
I mean, we've all heard people say that this

01:13:48.569 --> 01:13:52.979
is a Christian nation or say things like No king,

01:13:53.239 --> 01:13:55.199
but God or something along those lines, you know,

01:13:55.239 --> 01:13:57.619
but like, honestly, what does it all really mean?

01:13:58.300 --> 01:14:00.420
Yeah, great question. And we'll try to answer

01:14:00.420 --> 01:14:04.000
that one. Uh, who delineates quote unquote true

01:14:04.000 --> 01:14:08.039
Christianity from distortions? Oh yeah. What

01:14:08.039 --> 01:14:10.260
origin stories do Christian nationalists believe

01:14:10.260 --> 01:14:13.479
about the American past? And who counts as part

01:14:13.479 --> 01:14:16.380
of the supposed Christian nation and who doesn't?

01:14:16.619 --> 01:14:18.960
Or how does Christian nationalism reflect the

01:14:18.960 --> 01:14:22.689
alleged teachings of Jesus? Man these are these

01:14:22.689 --> 01:14:24.789
are a bunch of good questions, right? Yeah, they

01:14:24.789 --> 01:14:28.050
are and here's the through line the the through

01:14:28.050 --> 01:14:31.970
line for the whole thing At what point does a

01:14:31.970 --> 01:14:35.729
religion? stop being about spiritual salvation

01:14:35.729 --> 01:14:39.069
and start functioning as a tool of power and

01:14:39.069 --> 01:14:42.409
Why was America such fertile breeding ground

01:14:42.409 --> 01:14:48.329
for that transition? That's a good guiding, I

01:14:48.329 --> 01:14:51.409
think question as we go into the next few episodes

01:14:51.409 --> 01:14:52.909
and probably through the rest of the season.

01:14:53.189 --> 01:14:56.109
So we hope everyone that you'll stick around.

01:14:56.109 --> 01:15:05.170
Um, again, we have no intention to, uh, We're

01:15:05.170 --> 01:15:06.970
not trying again. We're not trying to draw anybody

01:15:06.970 --> 01:15:08.470
away from it. I was trying to say, we're not

01:15:08.470 --> 01:15:09.689
going to say negative thing. We're not going

01:15:09.689 --> 01:15:10.869
to be disparaging. No, we're going to be all

01:15:10.869 --> 01:15:13.270
of those things. I'm so sorry. We're going to

01:15:13.270 --> 01:15:14.970
be irreverent. You already said that we are going

01:15:14.970 --> 01:15:16.470
to be irreverent. You promised that we're going

01:15:16.470 --> 01:15:17.989
to do it. Yeah. You know, I mean, that's just

01:15:17.989 --> 01:15:19.789
the reality of it. Cause I mean, like it's, it's

01:15:19.789 --> 01:15:22.130
really through the lens of our experiences that

01:15:22.130 --> 01:15:24.270
we're going to be talking about this and you

01:15:24.270 --> 01:15:26.329
know, the lens of our experiences of, you know,

01:15:26.449 --> 01:15:29.789
watching how our country has evolved and how

01:15:29.789 --> 01:15:32.819
you see political leaders now. taking these stands

01:15:32.819 --> 01:15:34.640
and using some of the language that like I heard

01:15:34.640 --> 01:15:38.100
as a kid, you know, that like, this is the life

01:15:38.100 --> 01:15:40.680
that I lived every single day as a child up into

01:15:40.680 --> 01:15:44.279
my late, late teens. I mean, honestly. So when

01:15:44.279 --> 01:15:48.680
we say that, that we were in it, like we don't

01:15:48.680 --> 01:15:50.800
say that lightly. And I mean, I know Jimmy too,

01:15:51.000 --> 01:15:54.739
because he was in church all the time, all the

01:15:54.739 --> 01:15:56.819
time. I went to church with him. Sometimes he

01:15:56.819 --> 01:15:59.710
went to church with me sometimes. I mean, I actually

01:15:59.710 --> 01:16:01.130
liked his church because I was like, oh, wow,

01:16:01.149 --> 01:16:03.510
it's kind of normal. Like people don't just just

01:16:03.510 --> 01:16:05.189
get up and start running around for no fucking

01:16:05.189 --> 01:16:08.310
reason. That's kind of like, cool. I like I like

01:16:08.310 --> 01:16:12.470
the. No, we just eat the body of Christ and drink

01:16:12.470 --> 01:16:14.869
the blood of Christ. Nothing wrong. We do the

01:16:14.869 --> 01:16:16.670
same thing. We do. We do the same thing at my

01:16:16.670 --> 01:16:19.050
church, except we would drink grape juice. Yours

01:16:19.050 --> 01:16:21.250
gave us wine. I remember the first time I took

01:16:21.250 --> 01:16:23.229
a union at your church and your dad, your granddad

01:16:23.229 --> 01:16:25.149
was like, you know, he's cool. And the dude gave

01:16:25.149 --> 01:16:27.390
me the wine. And I'm like, that's not the great

01:16:27.390 --> 01:16:33.039
juice I'm used to. So, so that is about what

01:16:33.039 --> 01:16:35.659
you can expect in this, this season. This is

01:16:35.659 --> 01:16:37.840
going to probably be our most, this will not

01:16:37.840 --> 01:16:40.720
probably, this will undoubtedly be our most personal

01:16:40.720 --> 01:16:43.800
season that we've done. Um, and I'm excited to

01:16:43.800 --> 01:16:47.819
dig into it. So please follow us on socials where

01:16:47.819 --> 01:16:52.100
you can find us, Instagram, Facebook. We're on

01:16:52.100 --> 01:16:55.010
pretty much every podcast. thing that you can

01:16:55.010 --> 01:16:57.189
listen to. So you can find us where on your favorite,

01:16:57.189 --> 01:17:00.729
like listening platforms, please, you know, like

01:17:00.729 --> 01:17:04.050
us if you can rate us, if you want to, it just,

01:17:04.270 --> 01:17:06.449
it helps a lot, but if nothing else, just listen,

01:17:06.510 --> 01:17:09.489
you know, I mean, we're going to do this regardless.

01:17:09.810 --> 01:17:12.590
Um, you know, and we hope that you just stick

01:17:12.590 --> 01:17:17.569
around for the ride. So, yep. As, as always take

01:17:17.569 --> 01:17:20.550
care of yourselves, take care of each other.

01:17:21.109 --> 01:17:26.300
And as always. Keep it weird y 'all. Bioconduced.

01:17:49.729 --> 01:17:52.250
Subscribe, rate, and review us on your favorite

01:17:52.250 --> 01:17:55.890
podcast platform. You can also find us on Instagram

01:17:55.890 --> 01:17:58.510
and Facebook. Thanks again for listening.