WEBVTT 00:00:01.899 --> 00:00:06.019 From the mind -blowing and the macabre to the 00:00:06.019 --> 00:00:09.779 scandalous and the sinister Let's investigate 00:00:09.779 --> 00:00:13.640 the critical connections between history's strangest 00:00:13.640 --> 00:00:17.820 and most notorious lessons and our world as it 00:00:17.820 --> 00:00:27.579 is now Welcome to weird wicked and wild All right, 00:00:27.620 --> 00:00:31.800 let's get at her all right, let's do it Hey everybody, 00:00:32.140 --> 00:00:34.560 got a great episode ahead of us. But before we 00:00:34.560 --> 00:00:39.060 get started, I wanted to kick it off with a song 00:00:39.060 --> 00:00:43.679 lyric from a song that is near and dear to my 00:00:43.679 --> 00:00:45.799 heart from a group that is near and dear to my 00:00:45.799 --> 00:00:48.159 heart. So I'm going to start with the lyric and 00:00:48.159 --> 00:00:50.020 then I'll share who it's from and where it's 00:00:50.020 --> 00:00:54.820 from. So we don't believe you because we the 00:00:54.820 --> 00:00:59.100 people are still here in the rear. Ayo, we don't 00:00:59.100 --> 00:01:05.450 need you. which is from the song, We The People 00:01:05.450 --> 00:01:08.769 by the synonymous rap group, A Tribe Called Quest. 00:01:09.530 --> 00:01:11.909 And the reason why I wanted to start our, thank 00:01:11.909 --> 00:01:14.430 you. The reason why I wanted to start our episode 00:01:14.430 --> 00:01:17.829 with that today is because we are going to talk 00:01:17.829 --> 00:01:23.250 about the people today. And, you know, off the 00:01:23.250 --> 00:01:28.060 bat, let's ask, who are the people? And what 00:01:28.060 --> 00:01:30.439 does it mean when someone claims to speak on 00:01:30.439 --> 00:01:32.299 behalf of the people? So I mean, Jimmy, what 00:01:32.299 --> 00:01:35.239 do you think? That's a really timely question, 00:01:35.239 --> 00:01:38.000 especially right now, because we're hearing that 00:01:38.000 --> 00:01:40.379 kind of rhetoric coming from a lot of different 00:01:40.379 --> 00:01:42.640 folks, not just the president, but from a lot 00:01:42.640 --> 00:01:44.900 of people claiming to be speaking for the will 00:01:44.900 --> 00:01:48.209 of the people. here in the United States, we 00:01:48.209 --> 00:01:51.150 the people that means something right, or at 00:01:51.150 --> 00:01:53.049 least it's supposed to mean something, it's supposed 00:01:53.049 --> 00:01:58.469 to mean that we the governed consent to our government, 00:01:58.670 --> 00:02:02.189 it means that we are the power, we are the sovereignty 00:02:02.189 --> 00:02:05.590 in this nation. And yet, nobody ever really goes 00:02:05.590 --> 00:02:08.150 through a lot of pains to define who the people 00:02:08.150 --> 00:02:13.409 are. When I hear this terminology, even You know, 00:02:13.409 --> 00:02:15.990 even before my historian brain kicks in, I sort 00:02:15.990 --> 00:02:20.490 of get this image of just a mass of people, all 00:02:20.490 --> 00:02:22.310 different kinds of faces that are just kind of 00:02:22.310 --> 00:02:26.389 standing around looking aimlessly, because they're 00:02:26.389 --> 00:02:27.629 the people, this is what they're supposed to 00:02:27.629 --> 00:02:31.129 do. So nobody really defines exactly who the 00:02:31.129 --> 00:02:35.050 people are. But when somebody claims to speak 00:02:35.050 --> 00:02:38.650 for the people, loosely defined, then we've got 00:02:38.650 --> 00:02:42.090 to start wondering why they think they can do 00:02:42.090 --> 00:02:46.349 that. I mean, I think you make a great point, 00:02:46.430 --> 00:02:48.469 you know what I mean? Going back to the lyric, 00:02:48.650 --> 00:02:50.629 I mean, the last little bit is, you know, we 00:02:50.629 --> 00:02:53.129 don't need you. I mean, and that's really, I 00:02:53.129 --> 00:02:56.270 think that's a call to these people in leadership. 00:02:56.490 --> 00:02:58.490 We think they can speak on behalf of the people. 00:02:58.849 --> 00:03:00.949 I mean, I think that's such a loaded question. 00:03:01.150 --> 00:03:03.530 Honestly, I hate to even start off the episode 00:03:03.530 --> 00:03:06.069 with it because I mean, It does. It really brings 00:03:06.069 --> 00:03:08.710 up a lot of additional questions, you know, in 00:03:08.710 --> 00:03:10.050 my opinion, you know, who, you know, who are 00:03:10.050 --> 00:03:12.169 the people, who are we talking about right now? 00:03:12.169 --> 00:03:13.949 Because I mean, are we talking about the marginalized 00:03:13.949 --> 00:03:16.289 people? I mean, when I think about the people, 00:03:16.449 --> 00:03:18.889 it's the collective, right? But I think in our 00:03:18.889 --> 00:03:21.849 country, particularly there has been, uh, there 00:03:21.849 --> 00:03:24.189 is been a separation, you know, of the have and 00:03:24.189 --> 00:03:27.229 the have not, you know? And I mean, I, you know, 00:03:27.349 --> 00:03:29.469 and I think for me, and it's probably just from, 00:03:29.469 --> 00:03:31.189 you know, my way of thinking, my experiences 00:03:31.189 --> 00:03:34.319 and all, but when I think the people it is the 00:03:34.319 --> 00:03:37.240 the people who don't have who are not considered 00:03:37.240 --> 00:03:39.539 the equals you know that like we're trying to 00:03:39.539 --> 00:03:43.759 bring them up into the collective you know um 00:03:43.759 --> 00:03:45.919 and that's sort of a democratic ideal right is 00:03:45.919 --> 00:03:48.680 that uh supposed to mean everybody the power 00:03:48.680 --> 00:03:53.520 of the people um but well i think i think go 00:03:53.520 --> 00:03:55.240 ahead oh well i was gonna say i think the sad 00:03:55.240 --> 00:03:58.039 thing is that you know that that way of thinking 00:03:58.599 --> 00:04:01.719 you know, of looking at quote unquote the people 00:04:01.719 --> 00:04:04.120 as the marginalized. And I'm not trying to separate 00:04:04.120 --> 00:04:06.340 and differentiate because of lacks, you know, 00:04:06.360 --> 00:04:08.939 the, the lack of, it's just, you know, it's when 00:04:08.939 --> 00:04:11.240 we look back through history or when I look back 00:04:11.240 --> 00:04:13.819 through history, I mean, when you see people 00:04:13.819 --> 00:04:16.959 who speak on behalf of the people, it's those 00:04:16.959 --> 00:04:19.379 who, who have been left behind and are trying 00:04:19.379 --> 00:04:21.699 to be brought up to where everybody else is. 00:04:22.079 --> 00:04:25.319 But that way of thinking has unfortunately led 00:04:25.319 --> 00:04:28.019 us to where we are today in our country is because. 00:04:27.920 --> 00:04:30.800 because by focusing on those people who, you 00:04:30.800 --> 00:04:32.600 know, quote unquote, got left behind, there was 00:04:32.600 --> 00:04:34.439 a whole nother group of people who felt like 00:04:34.439 --> 00:04:36.560 they got left behind. So it's really weird when 00:04:36.560 --> 00:04:38.980 you talk about, especially in America, we, the 00:04:38.980 --> 00:04:43.740 people, because we're, sadly we're just so segmented 00:04:43.740 --> 00:04:46.779 right now. I mean, and what seems like we should 00:04:46.779 --> 00:04:48.839 want, yeah, what we should want is like this 00:04:48.839 --> 00:04:52.000 underlying truth, like just our rights, you know, 00:04:52.000 --> 00:04:54.000 to be taken care of as a people, you know, paying 00:04:54.000 --> 00:04:56.319 taxes into a country. I mean, that is so off 00:04:56.319 --> 00:05:00.230 the table. And those things and freedom itself 00:05:00.230 --> 00:05:02.410 really don't mean the same things to everybody 00:05:02.410 --> 00:05:05.509 in our country through long processes of segmentation 00:05:05.509 --> 00:05:07.970 and separation. And that separation gets right 00:05:07.970 --> 00:05:12.069 to the point of our episode, right? For authoritarians, 00:05:12.329 --> 00:05:16.120 for fascists. populism, or speaking on behalf 00:05:16.120 --> 00:05:18.839 of the people becomes very selective, you define 00:05:18.839 --> 00:05:22.180 narrowly who the people are, while leaving other 00:05:22.180 --> 00:05:24.800 people out of the mix, they're no longer the 00:05:24.800 --> 00:05:28.240 people. This is, of course, what umberto echo 00:05:28.240 --> 00:05:31.980 posits as the 13th feature of our fascism, and 00:05:31.980 --> 00:05:36.259 that selective populism. So hearing from echo, 00:05:36.319 --> 00:05:39.439 and he has a lot to say here. So it sort of demonstrates 00:05:39.439 --> 00:05:42.100 how important he thinks this is. So in his own 00:05:42.100 --> 00:05:47.720 words, Ur -fascism is based upon a selective 00:05:47.720 --> 00:05:51.600 populism, a qualitative populism, one might say. 00:05:52.199 --> 00:05:54.920 In a democracy, the citizens have individual 00:05:54.920 --> 00:05:57.680 rights, but the citizens in their entirety have 00:05:57.680 --> 00:06:00.600 a political impact only from a quantitative point 00:06:00.600 --> 00:06:04.040 of view. One follows the decisions of the majority. 00:06:04.480 --> 00:06:08.839 For Ur -Fascism, however, individuals as individuals 00:06:08.839 --> 00:06:12.120 have no rights, and the people is conceived as 00:06:12.120 --> 00:06:15.779 a quality, a monolithic entity expressing the 00:06:15.779 --> 00:06:19.120 common will. Since no large quantity of human 00:06:19.120 --> 00:06:22.339 beings can have a common will, the leader pretends 00:06:22.339 --> 00:06:25.759 to be their interpreter. Having lost their power 00:06:25.759 --> 00:06:29.240 of delegation, citizens do not act. They are 00:06:29.240 --> 00:06:32.079 only called on to play the role of the people. 00:06:32.620 --> 00:06:35.579 Thus, the people is only a theatrical fiction. 00:06:36.220 --> 00:06:39.220 To have a good instance of qualitative populism, 00:06:39.519 --> 00:06:42.379 we no longer need the Piazza Venezia in Rome 00:06:42.379 --> 00:06:46.300 or the Nuremberg Stadium. There is, in our future, 00:06:46.540 --> 00:06:49.800 a TV or internet populism in which the emotional 00:06:49.800 --> 00:06:52.360 response of a selected group of citizens can 00:06:52.360 --> 00:06:55.120 be presented and accepted as the voice of the 00:06:55.120 --> 00:06:59.230 people. Because of its qualitative populism, 00:06:59.470 --> 00:07:03.389 Ur -fascism must be against, quote, rotten parliamentary 00:07:03.389 --> 00:07:06.569 governments. One of the first sentences uttered 00:07:06.569 --> 00:07:09.310 by Mussolini in the Italian parliament was, quote, 00:07:09.629 --> 00:07:12.629 I could have transformed this deaf and gloomy 00:07:12.629 --> 00:07:16.689 place into a bivouac for my maniples. Maniples 00:07:16.689 --> 00:07:19.069 being a subdivision of the traditional Roman 00:07:19.069 --> 00:07:22.470 legion. As a matter of fact, he immediately found 00:07:22.470 --> 00:07:25.269 better housing for his manuals, but a little 00:07:25.269 --> 00:07:28.029 later he liquidated the parliament. Wherever 00:07:28.029 --> 00:07:30.790 a politician casts doubt on the legitimacy of 00:07:30.790 --> 00:07:33.069 a parliament because it no longer represents 00:07:33.069 --> 00:07:37.029 the voice of the people, we can smell her fascism. 00:07:43.910 --> 00:07:45.889 You leaned in on this one, man. I, you know, 00:07:45.889 --> 00:07:48.089 wait, so I just wanted to be clear. We are talking 00:07:48.089 --> 00:07:50.629 about Echo's statements and not Nostradamus, 00:07:50.970 --> 00:07:55.370 right? Right. Yeah, no. Um, man, like, okay. 00:07:55.930 --> 00:07:58.069 Every single time we hear from, from, from Echo, 00:07:58.170 --> 00:08:00.649 you know, it's, it's, it's salient. It really 00:08:00.649 --> 00:08:03.589 has an impact. I mean, you can really look at, 00:08:03.589 --> 00:08:05.910 you know, what he's saying at the time that he 00:08:05.910 --> 00:08:08.689 was writing, which was in the mid nineties, right? 00:08:10.300 --> 00:08:12.899 95, I believe. Yeah, 95. I should know that. 00:08:12.939 --> 00:08:14.160 That's what the year I graduated high school 00:08:14.160 --> 00:08:16.329 telling on myself. Yep. So, so I mean, I was 00:08:16.329 --> 00:08:18.550 as you were like, as I was hearing you, you know, 00:08:18.649 --> 00:08:20.470 go through his, his, uh, what he had written 00:08:20.470 --> 00:08:22.230 here. I mean, the things that really stood out 00:08:22.230 --> 00:08:23.750 to me was, you know, the fact that he's starting 00:08:23.750 --> 00:08:26.370 to bring in, you know, media like TV and internet, 00:08:26.370 --> 00:08:29.629 uh, populism. But then like what scared the absolute 00:08:29.629 --> 00:08:33.370 bejesus out of me was like, basically he is literally 00:08:33.370 --> 00:08:38.909 in 95 describing exactly, exactly, exactly to 00:08:38.909 --> 00:08:42.470 a T what is happening right now in the, in America, 00:08:42.809 --> 00:08:45.559 you know, um, and him talking about. you know, 00:08:45.559 --> 00:08:49.240 um, or fascism must be against rotten parliamentary 00:08:49.240 --> 00:08:51.799 governments. Well, you know, okay. That's a lot 00:08:51.799 --> 00:08:55.139 of fancy words for drain the swamp, right? And 00:08:55.139 --> 00:08:57.100 is that not what we heard time and time again? 00:08:57.220 --> 00:08:59.840 Now the swamp has flooded at this point, but 00:08:59.840 --> 00:09:02.000 that's neither here nor there. That's one of 00:09:02.000 --> 00:09:06.039 the big pieces that, that, you know, that MAGA 00:09:06.039 --> 00:09:08.860 and, you know, the right wing, you know, uh, 00:09:08.879 --> 00:09:11.139 political ideal really ran on was draining the 00:09:11.139 --> 00:09:16.889 swamp. Um, But, you know, um, I'll get into Mussolini 00:09:16.889 --> 00:09:20.009 and his, and his maniples in a second, but, um, 00:09:20.529 --> 00:09:22.850 I don't, I don't even know what that, but I just, 00:09:23.210 --> 00:09:24.710 okay, I'm sorry. I'm going to have to say maniples, 00:09:24.950 --> 00:09:30.830 maniples, man, man, nipples. So it was Mussolini 00:09:30.830 --> 00:09:32.990 like, I mean, is that what I mean? I hear that 00:09:32.990 --> 00:09:35.269 they crash grinder everywhere they go. All right. 00:09:35.350 --> 00:09:37.090 But does it really go that far back? Is that 00:09:37.090 --> 00:09:44.190 his bivouac for his man nipples? Bro, I hear 00:09:44.190 --> 00:09:48.289 you. Oh, wow. Okay. So yeah, that's it's funny 00:09:48.289 --> 00:09:51.279 because as as I was as we were reading through 00:09:51.279 --> 00:09:53.500 it the first time, I heard it as I said, and 00:09:53.500 --> 00:09:55.940 it's like, man, oh, that sounds like, but the 00:09:55.940 --> 00:09:58.299 fact that you caught it too. Oh, man, I was, 00:09:58.320 --> 00:09:59.899 I was like, I was cracking up. I was like, if 00:09:59.899 --> 00:10:02.039 this was like, if we, you know, actually, you 00:10:02.039 --> 00:10:04.299 know, filmed our, our talks and put them up, 00:10:04.340 --> 00:10:06.659 I mean, like the faces I was making and just 00:10:06.659 --> 00:10:08.419 my attempt to try to keep it together as you're 00:10:08.419 --> 00:10:10.559 talking about his man, manual, man, nipples. 00:10:11.279 --> 00:10:13.480 Um, I mean, I get it. It's a subdivision of the 00:10:13.480 --> 00:10:15.000 traditional Roman Legion. That's great. Cause 00:10:15.000 --> 00:10:18.679 they have just found another word. I mean, All 00:10:18.679 --> 00:10:20.500 the words. I mean of all the words and all the 00:10:20.500 --> 00:10:22.980 words like right now particularly I mean, you 00:10:22.980 --> 00:10:25.580 know, hey, I get you I get you Mussolini and 00:10:25.580 --> 00:10:28.100 your man nipples and now we're all featuring 00:10:28.100 --> 00:10:31.259 Mussolini shirtless for some reasons. I mean 00:10:31.259 --> 00:10:35.360 I think it was it was it the Ben Affleck Batman 00:10:35.360 --> 00:10:39.460 that had the nipples on his no, it was a George 00:10:39.460 --> 00:10:43.480 Clooney. Oh god Man, that's what's in my head, 00:10:43.620 --> 00:10:46.840 sadly. And I was still on your head. No, but 00:10:46.840 --> 00:10:52.200 back to reality. I mean, you know, the fact that, 00:10:52.200 --> 00:10:56.940 you know, Echo really leans into the idea of, 00:10:56.940 --> 00:11:01.080 again, what we're seeing in modern day where, 00:11:01.179 --> 00:11:05.399 you know, that individuals by themselves don't 00:11:05.399 --> 00:11:08.519 have the rights is the collectiveness of this 00:11:08.519 --> 00:11:11.279 group of people that we are that these leaders, 00:11:11.679 --> 00:11:13.879 these authoritarian leaders want to bestow rights 00:11:13.879 --> 00:11:15.980 upon. But if you really think about that, I mean, 00:11:16.120 --> 00:11:18.740 it's Donald Trump and his MAGA. I mean, he's 00:11:18.740 --> 00:11:20.740 given them a name. He's not even talking about 00:11:20.740 --> 00:11:23.399 his supporters. I mean, he doesn't even talk 00:11:23.399 --> 00:11:25.000 about them as supporters. Yes, occasionally he 00:11:25.000 --> 00:11:27.460 will. But by and large, he refers to him as MAGA, 00:11:27.519 --> 00:11:29.799 you know, and that's who he feels like should 00:11:29.799 --> 00:11:33.259 be getting the rights, even though he's clawing 00:11:33.259 --> 00:11:35.259 it all back from them as fast as he possibly 00:11:35.259 --> 00:11:39.240 can. But, you know, he's telling them that that's 00:11:39.240 --> 00:11:41.120 what he's doing. I mean, even in this, you know, 00:11:41.159 --> 00:11:42.759 we're currently in a government shutdown as we 00:11:42.759 --> 00:11:45.820 record this podcast right now. And I mean, you 00:11:45.820 --> 00:11:49.700 know, he is doing everything he can to tell the 00:11:49.700 --> 00:11:52.600 public that it's the Democrats that want to, 00:11:52.700 --> 00:11:55.259 or that they want to have this shutdown, which 00:11:55.259 --> 00:11:57.340 in fact, really, they just want to provide rights 00:11:57.340 --> 00:11:59.980 to the people, you know, healthcare. You know, 00:12:00.139 --> 00:12:02.340 which has been a hot topic in our country for 00:12:02.340 --> 00:12:06.039 the last 12 years or more. But nonetheless, I 00:12:06.039 --> 00:12:07.799 mean, they're coming back to that. You know, 00:12:07.899 --> 00:12:09.379 the Democrats are coming back to that because 00:12:09.379 --> 00:12:13.259 they know it's important. And if you don't. Oh, 00:12:13.259 --> 00:12:16.740 go ahead. If you think about it, that's sort 00:12:16.740 --> 00:12:20.139 of the definition or the loose definition of 00:12:20.139 --> 00:12:24.279 democracy. We're trying to loosely define the 00:12:24.279 --> 00:12:27.019 people so that we can include as many in as possible 00:12:27.019 --> 00:12:28.860 and make sure that these people have rights. 00:12:29.299 --> 00:12:31.559 We're not actually crossing legal lines. We're 00:12:31.559 --> 00:12:33.460 doing everything within the confines of the law. 00:12:33.940 --> 00:12:36.120 But the other side, the Republicans are saying, 00:12:36.259 --> 00:12:38.059 well, no, the people you're trying to provide 00:12:38.059 --> 00:12:40.960 for illegal immigrants, which isn't exactly what's 00:12:40.960 --> 00:12:43.740 going on at all. Nope. They're specifically saying, 00:12:43.960 --> 00:12:46.220 well, they're not the people they can't be in 00:12:46.220 --> 00:12:48.460 on this. They're not the people that we're talking 00:12:48.460 --> 00:12:53.240 about. Right. Right. Right. And I mean, it's, 00:12:53.240 --> 00:12:57.860 it is, it's difficult to watch because you, if, 00:12:58.059 --> 00:13:00.659 if you have any amount of common sense, I mean, 00:13:00.759 --> 00:13:04.480 you can look through What's being said, you know, 00:13:04.639 --> 00:13:07.179 to the reality of what's being done and really, 00:13:07.179 --> 00:13:11.139 you know, on one side. It is the antithesis of 00:13:11.139 --> 00:13:13.320 the two. What's being said versus what's being 00:13:13.320 --> 00:13:16.200 done is polar opposites. And on the other side, 00:13:16.279 --> 00:13:18.440 what's being said and what's being done aligned, 00:13:18.440 --> 00:13:20.840 you know, with their message and has, you know, 00:13:20.960 --> 00:13:24.200 for as long as I can remember, you know, but, 00:13:24.320 --> 00:13:25.740 you know, let's get back to, let's get out of 00:13:25.740 --> 00:13:27.460 the government shutdown and all this stuff between, 00:13:27.460 --> 00:13:29.320 you know, the Democrats and Republicans. Cause 00:13:29.320 --> 00:13:31.159 I mean, we can also talk about that all day long, 00:13:31.279 --> 00:13:33.179 but you know, let's get back to the people, you 00:13:33.179 --> 00:13:35.820 know, and this whole idea of populism. And I'm 00:13:35.820 --> 00:13:37.059 going to be honest with you, you know, man, I 00:13:37.059 --> 00:13:40.289 mean, you know, we hear a lot of terms throughout 00:13:40.289 --> 00:13:43.129 our lives, you know, um, and, you know, we learned 00:13:43.129 --> 00:13:45.129 about these things in school and stuff like that. 00:13:45.149 --> 00:13:47.950 But as we get away from them, you know, you, 00:13:47.950 --> 00:13:50.570 I can particularly say, you know, I mean, you 00:13:50.570 --> 00:13:52.850 have a cursory maybe understanding, but like 00:13:52.850 --> 00:13:55.690 straight up, like what is populism? That's a 00:13:55.690 --> 00:13:59.470 great question. Uh, populism in general, um, 00:13:59.610 --> 00:14:03.250 is another performance. It's staging the people 00:14:03.250 --> 00:14:06.970 as a unified body and advocating for greater 00:14:06.970 --> 00:14:09.529 political democracy for the average citizen. 00:14:09.970 --> 00:14:13.669 That's, in a nutshell, very loosely what populism 00:14:13.669 --> 00:14:17.769 sort of is, right? In politics, specifically, 00:14:18.110 --> 00:14:20.950 it becomes a political strategy or even just 00:14:20.950 --> 00:14:24.450 a political style that eventually divides society 00:14:24.450 --> 00:14:28.169 into two opposing camps. Right. On one side, 00:14:28.250 --> 00:14:31.610 you have the people. loosely defined in most 00:14:31.610 --> 00:14:35.730 cases, but framed as pure of spirit as virtuous 00:14:35.730 --> 00:14:39.129 and politically monolithic. That's an important 00:14:39.129 --> 00:14:41.210 point to make all the people are going to vote 00:14:41.210 --> 00:14:43.490 for the things that we want because we're speaking 00:14:43.490 --> 00:14:46.990 for the people. So politically, they're all of 00:14:46.990 --> 00:14:50.110 one mind with some notable exceptions in most 00:14:50.110 --> 00:14:52.090 cases so that we can always point to somebody 00:14:52.090 --> 00:14:55.529 who's outside of the picture. Yeah. In the other 00:14:55.529 --> 00:14:59.580 camp, we get the elite. And the elite, people 00:14:59.580 --> 00:15:01.720 who are highly educated, people, of course, who 00:15:01.720 --> 00:15:04.500 are wealthy, people who are powerful, they are 00:15:04.500 --> 00:15:09.500 often framed by populists as selfish, as manipulative, 00:15:09.759 --> 00:15:13.539 as corrupt, and therefore they're not legitimate. 00:15:13.639 --> 00:15:16.080 They don't deserve what it is that they have 00:15:16.080 --> 00:15:19.019 that is more than what the people have, right? 00:15:20.429 --> 00:15:25.570 This kind of rhetoric again focuses on the elites 00:15:25.570 --> 00:15:28.950 just like with the people as one monolithic voice 00:15:28.950 --> 00:15:31.830 So really there's only two sides to this equation 00:15:31.830 --> 00:15:35.429 in populist politics Well, you know what's crazy 00:15:35.429 --> 00:15:40.549 to me is that I mean Populism at the surface. 00:15:41.029 --> 00:15:43.929 I Mean well outside the fact that it you know 00:15:43.929 --> 00:15:46.049 could be another performance but on the surface, 00:15:46.049 --> 00:15:50.220 you know It sounds almost pure in nature, you 00:15:50.220 --> 00:15:53.700 know, because it has the collective people, you 00:15:53.700 --> 00:15:56.559 know, who are pushing for the greater good of 00:15:56.559 --> 00:15:59.419 the people. And then you have, you know, the 00:15:59.419 --> 00:16:01.379 elite who, you know, the people of the wealth, 00:16:01.480 --> 00:16:03.279 the 1 % we've talked, you know, we've heard talk 00:16:03.279 --> 00:16:06.419 about, you know, the billionaires to some trillionaires, 00:16:06.539 --> 00:16:09.440 um, you know, the people who control not only 00:16:09.440 --> 00:16:12.539 the wealth, but a lot of the decisions and policy 00:16:12.539 --> 00:16:14.820 and stuff that, that, that are being made. So 00:16:14.820 --> 00:16:18.950 what's really, so On the surface, it seems ideal, 00:16:18.950 --> 00:16:20.610 right? Because it's like we're fighting. It's 00:16:20.610 --> 00:16:22.470 almost good versus evil. If you can frame it 00:16:22.470 --> 00:16:24.649 that way. I mean, it's kind of minimizing, minimizing, 00:16:25.129 --> 00:16:28.950 minimizing a little bit. But what's really sad 00:16:28.950 --> 00:16:34.169 is that. I mean, populism. really is defining 00:16:34.169 --> 00:16:36.370 what happens in our current country because you 00:16:36.370 --> 00:16:39.789 have the people who are voting for people, you 00:16:39.789 --> 00:16:41.830 know, legislators to represent them. But the 00:16:41.830 --> 00:16:45.110 reality is it's the people with wealth that have 00:16:45.110 --> 00:16:48.269 the influence that get the laws passed that get 00:16:48.269 --> 00:16:50.570 the, you know, the benefits that get the tax 00:16:50.570 --> 00:16:53.509 cuts that get, you know, whatever it is that 00:16:53.509 --> 00:16:56.730 they want, you know, they get the life and the 00:16:56.730 --> 00:17:01.450 benefits of, of politics without honest. I mean, 00:17:01.470 --> 00:17:03.600 like, you know, with without having to put the 00:17:03.600 --> 00:17:06.720 time in. I mean, honestly. And that's one of 00:17:06.720 --> 00:17:09.140 the things, right? That's one of the things that 00:17:09.140 --> 00:17:13.720 populists rail against is that these people aren't 00:17:13.720 --> 00:17:16.539 really earning what it is that they've got. And 00:17:16.539 --> 00:17:19.819 when they loosely define both camps, then there's 00:17:19.819 --> 00:17:22.000 a shift, right? People can move from one camp 00:17:22.000 --> 00:17:24.660 to the other fairly easily because they're not 00:17:24.660 --> 00:17:27.140 defining who's who really, they're looking at 00:17:27.140 --> 00:17:30.539 the people with as the or the haves, if you will, 00:17:30.539 --> 00:17:33.079 right, as being wrong and they're looking at 00:17:33.079 --> 00:17:35.619 the have nots or the general consensus whatever 00:17:35.619 --> 00:17:39.259 that means as the right or as the good in this 00:17:39.259 --> 00:17:43.099 story right and a good populist knows how to 00:17:43.099 --> 00:17:46.759 use language and rhetoric to divide these camps 00:17:46.759 --> 00:17:49.640 and to keep them sort of divided right using 00:17:49.640 --> 00:17:54.160 anti -elitism and framing institutions like legislatures 00:17:54.160 --> 00:17:57.480 and courts and universities and the media as 00:17:57.480 --> 00:18:00.519 corrupt or detached from any kind of social reality 00:18:00.519 --> 00:18:03.059 right how many times have we heard even in our 00:18:03.059 --> 00:18:06.500 own lifetimes that universities are ideological 00:18:06.500 --> 00:18:08.779 breeding grounds where they're not really teaching 00:18:08.779 --> 00:18:10.920 students what they need to know in the real world 00:18:10.920 --> 00:18:13.299 well i mean i think that's a great point because 00:18:13.299 --> 00:18:15.940 you know that's definitely become a very popular 00:18:15.940 --> 00:18:19.539 rhetoric that I've seen over the last probably 00:18:19.539 --> 00:18:22.599 10 to maybe 20 years, but definitely over the 00:18:22.599 --> 00:18:24.460 last 10 years, you've seen it become more and 00:18:24.460 --> 00:18:27.180 more prevalent. But the reason why I think that 00:18:27.180 --> 00:18:29.740 has happened is because you've had a boomer generation 00:18:29.740 --> 00:18:33.759 that sent their kids off to school who went and 00:18:33.759 --> 00:18:37.960 learned and was, you know, went from oftentimes 00:18:37.960 --> 00:18:40.119 or, you know, well, I know at least in my case, 00:18:40.119 --> 00:18:43.949 you know, um, somewhat more insulated. communities 00:18:43.949 --> 00:18:47.829 to much more diverse communities and completely 00:18:47.829 --> 00:18:50.490 changed the way that I thought about the world. 00:18:50.670 --> 00:18:52.789 And I came back and began to challenge everything 00:18:52.789 --> 00:18:55.130 that I was taught. You know, and I think that 00:18:55.130 --> 00:18:57.549 like, you know, you've seen that happen in certain 00:18:57.549 --> 00:18:59.710 generations. And I think that because of that, 00:18:59.849 --> 00:19:01.730 you've had a group that's really stepped out 00:19:01.730 --> 00:19:03.950 and said, Oh gosh, universities, but where it 00:19:03.950 --> 00:19:05.210 was before, like that's where you went and major 00:19:05.210 --> 00:19:07.460 living and all of a sudden the other. Um, and 00:19:07.460 --> 00:19:09.259 that was the case probably in the boomer generation. 00:19:09.420 --> 00:19:11.400 You went and learned a skill or a trade to some 00:19:11.400 --> 00:19:13.299 extent, or education that allowed you to go off 00:19:13.299 --> 00:19:16.400 and do that. Whereas my generation, you know, 00:19:16.559 --> 00:19:19.000 it was, yes, learning something for your career, 00:19:19.019 --> 00:19:23.339 but it was also that life experiences that molded 00:19:23.339 --> 00:19:26.599 you into who you were as an adult. And it allowed 00:19:26.599 --> 00:19:28.480 you to meet people, and it allowed you to expand 00:19:28.480 --> 00:19:31.519 your horizons, and it allowed you to break out 00:19:31.519 --> 00:19:35.019 of those traditional structures that you understood 00:19:35.019 --> 00:19:37.720 the world in before. They're not lying when they 00:19:37.720 --> 00:19:40.579 say that universities tend to make liberals out 00:19:40.579 --> 00:19:42.960 of people. That's what education does. Education 00:19:42.960 --> 00:19:46.619 is liberating. Reading tends to make people a 00:19:46.619 --> 00:19:48.640 little bit more liberal, as long as they're reading 00:19:48.640 --> 00:19:51.440 not headlines and things like that, right? Or 00:19:51.440 --> 00:19:55.980 Mein Kampf. Right, that too. But the good thing 00:19:55.980 --> 00:19:57.880 about populism really is that, you know, with 00:19:57.880 --> 00:20:00.380 this anti -elite, people -centric, you know, 00:20:00.519 --> 00:20:03.980 approach, oftentimes a charismatic leadership 00:20:03.980 --> 00:20:06.799 that presents the embodiment of the people, it's 00:20:06.799 --> 00:20:10.839 very flexible. It doesn't owe any natural allegiance 00:20:10.839 --> 00:20:14.319 to right or to left, although it's not necessarily 00:20:14.319 --> 00:20:18.220 center either. It can really coalesce with many 00:20:18.220 --> 00:20:21.420 political ideologies from socialism all the way 00:20:21.420 --> 00:20:23.539 on the left to fascism all the way on the right. 00:20:23.720 --> 00:20:30.480 Right. It is something that comes in waves throughout 00:20:30.480 --> 00:20:33.559 history. We see populist peaks and we see populist 00:20:33.559 --> 00:20:36.960 troughs where power structures tend to have more 00:20:36.960 --> 00:20:39.700 power and the establishment, as they so call 00:20:39.700 --> 00:20:42.119 it, tend to be the people who continue to be 00:20:42.119 --> 00:20:43.799 in power. And then at some points throughout 00:20:43.799 --> 00:20:47.359 history, we find that people or populism tends 00:20:47.359 --> 00:20:51.359 to take take over and advocate for the will of 00:20:51.359 --> 00:20:54.319 the greater people and in their perspective anyway, 00:20:54.460 --> 00:20:56.990 the greater good. Right. Right. Which is really 00:20:56.990 --> 00:20:58.910 interesting, you know, because like I talked 00:20:58.910 --> 00:21:01.069 about it has this like, you know, like I said, 00:21:01.069 --> 00:21:03.329 on the surface level, it's like this ideal, right? 00:21:03.569 --> 00:21:06.210 I mean, and, and, you know, again, it sounds 00:21:06.210 --> 00:21:07.910 like pretty legit, you know, it's like fighting 00:21:07.910 --> 00:21:09.710 for the people, right? Which is like something 00:21:09.710 --> 00:21:12.269 I think you and I very much believe in and advocate 00:21:12.269 --> 00:21:15.450 for. And like, you know, kind of, I mean, you 00:21:15.450 --> 00:21:17.789 know, taking down the elites or, you know, or, 00:21:17.789 --> 00:21:19.529 or better yet, maybe not taking them down. Cause 00:21:19.529 --> 00:21:21.049 you know, Hey, have your money, whatever, but 00:21:21.049 --> 00:21:22.869 stop trying to control the world through like 00:21:22.869 --> 00:21:24.349 your shadow money and all these things, right? 00:21:25.480 --> 00:21:29.119 your power, right? Um, right. So, and me and, 00:21:29.119 --> 00:21:33.559 and, and like inherently, I mean, honestly feels 00:21:33.559 --> 00:21:35.799 like a left -leaning strategy. I mean, would, 00:21:36.079 --> 00:21:39.940 is that the case? I mean, cause I could see, 00:21:39.980 --> 00:21:43.059 I could see the opposite, but it almost seems 00:21:43.059 --> 00:21:45.660 to go against the ideal of what this whole thing 00:21:45.660 --> 00:21:50.180 stands for. Yeah, I mean, so, yes, it can be 00:21:50.180 --> 00:21:54.059 a left -wing strategy, but it isn't always. Populism 00:21:54.059 --> 00:21:58.779 is less an ideology in and of itself, and more 00:21:58.779 --> 00:22:01.900 of a one -size -fits -all framework that any 00:22:01.900 --> 00:22:04.940 ideology can adapt to. Oh, so it's like a choose 00:22:04.940 --> 00:22:08.140 -your -own -adventure. In some ways, yes, absolutely, 00:22:08.339 --> 00:22:12.230 right? So, there is left -wing populism. right? 00:22:12.910 --> 00:22:15.990 Left wingers that oppose economic elites and 00:22:15.990 --> 00:22:19.470 oppose corporations and oppose global financial 00:22:19.470 --> 00:22:22.690 systems. If you think of people like Nicolas 00:22:22.690 --> 00:22:26.509 Maduro in Venezuela, who is seen as a fairly 00:22:26.509 --> 00:22:29.849 dictatorial left wing populist, right? Also, 00:22:30.150 --> 00:22:32.569 Shin fan in Ireland and Bernie Sanders here in 00:22:32.569 --> 00:22:35.549 the United States. These are all left wing there. 00:22:35.819 --> 00:22:40.119 Anti -corporation their anti global financial 00:22:40.119 --> 00:22:43.880 whatever and they are fighting Supposedly in 00:22:43.880 --> 00:22:46.420 their rhetoric on the behalf of their people 00:22:46.420 --> 00:22:48.559 if you think about Bernie Sanders He's always 00:22:48.559 --> 00:22:50.720 and he has been for years and years and years 00:22:50.720 --> 00:22:54.420 decades even Congress always saying the same 00:22:54.420 --> 00:22:56.980 thing. He hasn't changed his tune at all. I know 00:22:56.980 --> 00:22:59.500 always advocates for the people Yeah, I mean 00:22:59.500 --> 00:23:02.700 and it's amazing, you know that He's been able 00:23:02.700 --> 00:23:07.710 to stay in politics for as long as he has, you 00:23:07.710 --> 00:23:10.029 know, with that same message, because, you know, 00:23:10.049 --> 00:23:12.089 the reality is that, I mean, it resonates. I 00:23:12.089 --> 00:23:15.190 think that a lot of people hear what he's saying 00:23:15.190 --> 00:23:20.349 and believe in it, but I think the general public, 00:23:20.849 --> 00:23:23.049 I don't think that they disagree. I think they 00:23:23.049 --> 00:23:25.329 just have a hard time seeing how we could ever 00:23:25.329 --> 00:23:29.299 get to that place. Well, Part of the problem 00:23:29.299 --> 00:23:32.140 with with Sanders philosophy, and not that it's 00:23:32.140 --> 00:23:33.940 a problem with his philosophy, part of what makes 00:23:33.940 --> 00:23:37.519 it a tough fit in American society is that for 00:23:37.519 --> 00:23:40.400 a long time, we have seen the Democratic Party 00:23:40.400 --> 00:23:43.740 as the left wing party. And it's not, it is at 00:23:43.740 --> 00:23:47.220 best centrist, maybe even in some cases, center 00:23:47.220 --> 00:23:50.920 right, right, there is no big organized left 00:23:50.920 --> 00:23:53.359 wing party in the United States. So Bernie Sanders 00:23:53.359 --> 00:23:56.400 is working Almost by himself. I mean, you've 00:23:56.400 --> 00:23:58.759 got the Alexandria Ocasio -Cortez is and others 00:23:58.759 --> 00:24:02.460 who are starting to join that cadre, but there 00:24:02.460 --> 00:24:05.319 are things that seem out of place in a country 00:24:05.319 --> 00:24:07.000 that really, for most of our history has been 00:24:07.000 --> 00:24:09.960 center center, right. Right. Well, you know, 00:24:10.039 --> 00:24:12.700 I mean, it just dawned on me too, that, I mean, 00:24:12.819 --> 00:24:16.319 up until recently, when we talk about elites. 00:24:16.969 --> 00:24:20.029 It was more the left. I mean, you know, the coastal 00:24:20.029 --> 00:24:22.029 elites, I mean, granted there were other, there 00:24:22.029 --> 00:24:23.730 were people on the right, like the Koch brothers 00:24:23.730 --> 00:24:25.650 and, and other organs, like, you know, the, uh, 00:24:25.890 --> 00:24:28.490 the, the Waltons are the set, the Walmart folks, 00:24:28.750 --> 00:24:32.569 whatever. Yeah. Um, but yeah. Um, but when, when 00:24:32.569 --> 00:24:37.390 we heard about it in mainstream media. Um, it 00:24:37.390 --> 00:24:40.230 was the coastal elites who were ruining the country 00:24:40.230 --> 00:24:42.230 because they had all this money and they were 00:24:42.230 --> 00:24:44.049 making all these liberal, you know, pushing all 00:24:44.049 --> 00:24:46.970 these liberal policies. Then you see people from 00:24:46.970 --> 00:24:49.230 the right, you know, like the Elon Musk's of 00:24:49.230 --> 00:24:51.349 the world who now all of a sudden they see the 00:24:51.349 --> 00:24:54.829 money shift. And now it's the, the right wing 00:24:54.829 --> 00:24:58.470 elites who are ruining the country and which, 00:24:58.750 --> 00:25:01.589 which they actually are. I mean, it's one thing 00:25:01.589 --> 00:25:03.470 to go up and buy property on the coast. Right. 00:25:03.509 --> 00:25:05.970 And like, you know, maybe like. push a little 00:25:05.970 --> 00:25:09.410 bit more for social welfare programs in the country. 00:25:09.490 --> 00:25:11.769 It's a completely different thing to come in 00:25:11.769 --> 00:25:14.509 here as an immigrant and then tell our government 00:25:14.509 --> 00:25:17.170 which programs need to be cut and who needs to 00:25:17.170 --> 00:25:20.730 be fired from their jobs. Right. Well, and you 00:25:20.730 --> 00:25:23.829 made a good point, right? For a long time, there 00:25:23.829 --> 00:25:27.410 was this story that the highly educated Harvard 00:25:27.410 --> 00:25:30.529 professors and the coastal elites that you mentioned, 00:25:30.869 --> 00:25:34.069 they were the ones who were really sort of benefiting 00:25:34.069 --> 00:25:36.730 from all of America's freedoms while forgetting 00:25:36.730 --> 00:25:39.589 about the people in middle America, right? People, 00:25:39.750 --> 00:25:42.509 right? In middle America. So enter the right 00:25:42.509 --> 00:25:45.009 wing populist machine. This is what I mean by 00:25:45.009 --> 00:25:47.369 populism. It can really adapt to so many strategies. 00:25:47.430 --> 00:25:50.029 Man, that's crazy. That shifted in like 10 years. 00:25:50.349 --> 00:25:53.230 It shifted in 10 years, man. Let's be perfectly 00:25:53.230 --> 00:25:55.329 honest with ourselves. If we really look at it. 00:25:55.730 --> 00:25:58.029 Well, people die, right? And new people become 00:25:58.029 --> 00:26:01.380 part of the people. And so that's crazy. Right 00:26:01.380 --> 00:26:04.299 wing populism focused much more on cultural or 00:26:04.299 --> 00:26:07.000 national or national enemies, right? We're not 00:26:07.000 --> 00:26:08.799 focused really on the people we're focused on 00:26:08.799 --> 00:26:11.200 the people who are outside of the people. And 00:26:11.200 --> 00:26:13.700 we're looking at them as bad and as degenerate, 00:26:13.700 --> 00:26:18.000 right? This is often paired with intense nationalism, 00:26:19.079 --> 00:26:22.079 religious uniformity. So if you think about, 00:26:22.079 --> 00:26:26.119 again, examples, the Likud party or Benjamin 00:26:26.119 --> 00:26:29.940 Netanyahu's party in Israel is right wing populist. 00:26:29.900 --> 00:26:33.539 right? The alternative for Germany, I can't pronounce 00:26:33.539 --> 00:26:36.279 the actual German term, but it's the German party, 00:26:36.400 --> 00:26:38.460 the far right German party that Elon Musk was 00:26:38.460 --> 00:26:41.220 in support of. Oh, right. Yeah. Last year. And 00:26:41.220 --> 00:26:43.319 of course, you mentioned earlier MAGA here in 00:26:43.319 --> 00:26:45.640 the United States, this is a very right wing 00:26:45.640 --> 00:26:49.440 populist movement with Donald Trump as the charismatic 00:26:49.440 --> 00:26:52.519 voice of the common will, so to speak, right? 00:26:53.339 --> 00:26:56.599 And we're starting to see that right wing populism 00:26:56.599 --> 00:27:00.880 turn into what a lot of people have argued is 00:27:00.880 --> 00:27:02.819 actually happening here in the United States. 00:27:03.200 --> 00:27:06.960 And that's authoritarian populism. They say it's 00:27:06.960 --> 00:27:10.079 actually authoritarian populism and not fascism. 00:27:10.539 --> 00:27:13.220 My question has always been what exactly is the 00:27:13.220 --> 00:27:17.990 difference? Right, right. Exactly. Is it war 00:27:17.990 --> 00:27:20.910 crimes? Is that the line we're gonna draw here? 00:27:21.029 --> 00:27:22.430 We're just waiting for them to commit like, you 00:27:22.430 --> 00:27:24.190 know, horrific war crimes and be like, all right, 00:27:24.210 --> 00:27:26.210 now he's a fascist, I'm sorry. I mean, like, 00:27:26.210 --> 00:27:30.029 well, you're bombing these Venezuelans. I was 00:27:30.029 --> 00:27:31.710 just getting ready to say, man, I mean, like, 00:27:31.710 --> 00:27:33.230 we're already there. I don't know what I was 00:27:33.230 --> 00:27:35.950 talking about. You know, authoritarian populism 00:27:35.950 --> 00:27:38.049 could come from either the left or the right. 00:27:38.450 --> 00:27:41.509 But in all cases, and so if you think of Nicolas 00:27:41.509 --> 00:27:43.569 Maduro, that's authoritarian populism, but from 00:27:43.569 --> 00:27:46.359 the left. Benjamin Netanyahu, Donald Trump, these 00:27:46.359 --> 00:27:48.480 are authoritarian populism on the right. And 00:27:48.480 --> 00:27:50.700 again, what the difference is between that and 00:27:50.700 --> 00:27:53.079 fascism, I don't really see a difference. Right. 00:27:53.200 --> 00:27:55.059 But it comes from either the left or the right. 00:27:55.099 --> 00:28:00.059 And it all in all cases reduces the people to 00:28:00.059 --> 00:28:03.059 less than a group of human beings and reduces 00:28:03.059 --> 00:28:07.319 them to a moral fiction almost that can only 00:28:07.319 --> 00:28:10.779 be interpreted by the leader. Right. The people 00:28:11.360 --> 00:28:14.200 Can't possibly speak for themselves, but I know 00:28:14.200 --> 00:28:17.420 what they want And so I will speak on their behalf 00:28:17.420 --> 00:28:20.079 and usually when it gets to that point There 00:28:20.079 --> 00:28:23.759 are only the barest traces of democracy if any 00:28:23.759 --> 00:28:27.119 at all That's crazy. And I mean, I think yeah, 00:28:27.180 --> 00:28:31.779 we're clearly seeing that, you know today Where 00:28:31.779 --> 00:28:38.640 I mean Yes, we're seeing our leaders tell us 00:28:38.640 --> 00:28:41.059 what you know, they think is best for us, you 00:28:41.059 --> 00:28:45.460 know, and the reality is that, you know, we voted 00:28:45.460 --> 00:28:48.380 them into, into their leaderships, you know, 00:28:48.720 --> 00:28:50.759 with the mandate of what we wanted from them. 00:28:51.279 --> 00:28:53.220 And I don't think in many cases they're listening 00:28:53.220 --> 00:28:55.880 at all, you know, they're up there in their own 00:28:55.880 --> 00:28:59.200 political agendas. And I mean, I think the saddest 00:28:59.200 --> 00:29:02.700 thing that has ever happened to our, uh, to our 00:29:02.700 --> 00:29:11.369 American politics is the, uh, The entertainment 00:29:11.369 --> 00:29:17.390 is that entertainment ization of of of politics 00:29:17.390 --> 00:29:19.730 is that these people came in here and wanted 00:29:19.730 --> 00:29:24.150 to become characters You know or I mean and really 00:29:24.150 --> 00:29:27.380 I mean that's that's what they are And it's just 00:29:27.380 --> 00:29:29.140 really sad because we're not talking about things 00:29:29.140 --> 00:29:31.579 that are important anymore. We're just attacking 00:29:31.579 --> 00:29:34.440 each other's character now. I mean, focusing 00:29:34.440 --> 00:29:36.579 on symbols and slogans and things like that. 00:29:36.579 --> 00:29:38.759 For sure. I mean, you know, we, we watched Pam 00:29:38.759 --> 00:29:42.980 Bondi, you know, go through, uh, uh, yeah, an 00:29:42.980 --> 00:29:48.730 interrogation or a hearing. Uh, and I mean, she 00:29:48.730 --> 00:29:51.529 reduced it to just name calling. I mean, that, 00:29:51.750 --> 00:29:54.349 and that, that's, that's where we are, you know? 00:29:54.589 --> 00:29:56.450 And so that's where we are today. Right. And 00:29:56.450 --> 00:29:58.470 so we're talking about populism. Right. And I 00:29:58.470 --> 00:30:00.750 mean, like, you know, with, with many of the 00:30:00.750 --> 00:30:02.410 things that we talk about, you know, you see 00:30:02.410 --> 00:30:06.329 a through line going a long ways back. I mean, 00:30:06.490 --> 00:30:08.849 and I know that if we, you know, looking at the 00:30:08.849 --> 00:30:11.710 situation now with populism and selective populism. 00:30:11.809 --> 00:30:14.109 Um, you know, certainly in the, the, the world 00:30:14.109 --> 00:30:16.529 war two era and that kind of thing, but I mean, 00:30:16.670 --> 00:30:19.609 you know, I'm sure it has much deeper roots. 00:30:19.710 --> 00:30:22.450 So Jimmy, like how far back does this go, man? 00:30:22.450 --> 00:30:26.710 Hmm. All the way. Um, or at least as far back 00:30:26.710 --> 00:30:30.099 as systems of back to the garden. Back to the 00:30:30.099 --> 00:30:34.220 garden. You know, at least as far back as when 00:30:34.220 --> 00:30:38.099 power structures recognized that the people they 00:30:38.099 --> 00:30:41.799 ruled over had a power of their own. Right. And 00:30:41.799 --> 00:30:44.880 this is where populism can be dangerous because 00:30:44.880 --> 00:30:48.380 the people do have a power of their own, whether 00:30:48.380 --> 00:30:51.900 it's through democratic participation, like voting 00:30:51.900 --> 00:30:54.579 and protesting, or whether it's through revolution, 00:30:54.799 --> 00:30:58.369 the people do have a power. And so Populism has 00:30:58.369 --> 00:31:00.450 always been there whenever power structures have 00:31:00.450 --> 00:31:02.869 recognized that they can use the power of the 00:31:02.869 --> 00:31:06.049 people to get their own agendas across the finish 00:31:06.049 --> 00:31:10.869 line, so to speak. So as always, man, Rome is 00:31:10.869 --> 00:31:13.170 sort of the prototype for all of this stuff. 00:31:13.450 --> 00:31:18.170 In the second century BCE, Tiberius and Gaius 00:31:18.170 --> 00:31:22.230 Gracchus brothers, they organized working class 00:31:22.230 --> 00:31:25.569 citizens against the Senate elites, right? They 00:31:25.569 --> 00:31:27.829 framed the Senate as corrupt and out of touch 00:31:27.829 --> 00:31:30.710 with the people. And so they organized the farmers 00:31:30.710 --> 00:31:34.470 and the craftsmen against the Senate elites calling 00:31:34.470 --> 00:31:38.920 for what was super radical, right? fair land 00:31:38.920 --> 00:31:41.960 redistribution and grain subsidies and things 00:31:41.960 --> 00:31:44.700 like that. Really stuff that's even pretty radical 00:31:44.700 --> 00:31:47.240 in modern history. If you think about how we 00:31:47.240 --> 00:31:50.559 feel about income redistribution and equality, 00:31:50.859 --> 00:31:56.440 right? Oh, yeah. Yeah. The voice of the people 00:31:56.440 --> 00:31:59.960 under the Gracchus Brothers organization, but 00:31:59.960 --> 00:32:03.180 also just more generally in Roman history, comes 00:32:03.180 --> 00:32:10.519 to be used for political reasons, right? What 00:32:10.519 --> 00:32:14.140 would have been known in Latin as the vox populi, 00:32:15.299 --> 00:32:19.059 led a lot of Roman leaders to use plebeians, 00:32:19.460 --> 00:32:21.920 the people who are the working classes in Roman 00:32:21.920 --> 00:32:25.599 politics, people like Julius Caesar and others 00:32:25.599 --> 00:32:29.180 who would call themselves populares. drew on 00:32:29.180 --> 00:32:32.859 elected assemblies and on plebeian protests to 00:32:32.859 --> 00:32:35.059 oppose their rivals, right? So Julius Caesar, 00:32:35.440 --> 00:32:38.960 as he was ruling as a member of the first triumvirate, 00:32:39.119 --> 00:32:41.720 he would say that he had the will of the people 00:32:41.720 --> 00:32:44.940 behind him in order to oppose his triumvirate 00:32:44.940 --> 00:32:49.220 rivals, Pompey and the other guy whose name I 00:32:49.220 --> 00:32:53.660 can never remember. You've probably heard that 00:32:53.660 --> 00:32:58.140 phrase, vox populi, vox dei, or the voice of 00:32:58.140 --> 00:33:02.200 the people is the voice of God, right? That doesn't 00:33:02.200 --> 00:33:07.059 actually first appear until the eighth century, 00:33:07.099 --> 00:33:09.680 I think it was, first appeared in a warning letter 00:33:09.680 --> 00:33:14.200 to Charlemagne, the Frankish emperor. Admonishing, 00:33:14.559 --> 00:33:17.059 ironically, admonishing the rising emperor not 00:33:17.059 --> 00:33:20.500 to trust popular opinion because the crowds were 00:33:20.500 --> 00:33:23.079 so easily manipulated. And the Romans, of course, 00:33:23.160 --> 00:33:24.819 knew this way back when they were doing things 00:33:24.819 --> 00:33:29.359 too, that the people can be swayed fairly easily 00:33:29.359 --> 00:33:31.740 to one direction or another by a charismatic 00:33:31.740 --> 00:33:36.099 leadership. Right? Well, you know, I real quick, 00:33:36.299 --> 00:33:39.180 just one thing that stands out. to me and hearing 00:33:39.180 --> 00:33:41.359 about, you know, kind of taking our walk down 00:33:41.359 --> 00:33:44.440 memory lane, if you will, is, you know, Julius 00:33:44.440 --> 00:33:49.579 Caesar using, you know, this ideology, if you 00:33:49.579 --> 00:33:54.619 will. You know, to draw to draw on the public, 00:33:54.740 --> 00:33:57.500 essentially to process in favor of him, because 00:33:57.500 --> 00:34:01.519 it gets to that idea, at least in my mind, of 00:34:01.519 --> 00:34:05.900 politicians being like, I'm just like you. I'm 00:34:05.900 --> 00:34:08.730 one of you. You know, I grew up in the suburbs. 00:34:08.889 --> 00:34:10.929 I grew up poor. Now, mind you, I'm living in 00:34:10.929 --> 00:34:13.309 a multimillion dollar mansion now, you know, 00:34:13.349 --> 00:34:15.449 like, and in no way, shape or form does my current 00:34:15.449 --> 00:34:18.389 life reflect my old life and nor could I actually 00:34:18.389 --> 00:34:21.389 relate to what you're going through in my current 00:34:21.389 --> 00:34:23.429 modern day. Because if you stripped all of this 00:34:23.429 --> 00:34:26.309 away and had me live on your wage for a year, 00:34:26.550 --> 00:34:29.460 I couldn't do it. Right. But it's this whole 00:34:29.460 --> 00:34:32.659 idea of politicians like, Hey buddy, I'm just 00:34:32.659 --> 00:34:34.920 like you. You vote for me. I got your best interests 00:34:34.920 --> 00:34:37.619 in mind, but really I grew up in Appalachian, 00:34:37.619 --> 00:34:40.360 Ohio. And now I'm the second most powerful man 00:34:40.360 --> 00:34:46.070 in the world. Right? Yep. Yep. Yeah. people you 00:34:46.070 --> 00:34:48.610 know we see this all over the place people who 00:34:48.610 --> 00:34:51.590 are so obviously not of the people Julius Caesar 00:34:51.590 --> 00:34:54.250 wasn't of the people he was an incredibly important 00:34:54.250 --> 00:34:57.389 family and he had a lot of high ranking positions 00:34:57.389 --> 00:35:01.309 even as a young man before he became the legend 00:35:01.309 --> 00:35:06.769 that he became right. We see in England in 1381 00:35:06.769 --> 00:35:10.969 for another example. Father John ball a priest 00:35:10.969 --> 00:35:14.690 and other clergy. employed radical sermons about 00:35:14.690 --> 00:35:18.309 equality, arguing that all men by nature were 00:35:18.309 --> 00:35:21.090 created alike, if that sounds familiar. And our 00:35:21.090 --> 00:35:24.190 bondage or servitude came in by the unjust oppression 00:35:24.190 --> 00:35:28.130 of naughty men. And I love that of naughty men. 00:35:28.369 --> 00:35:31.809 Yes. And these clergy, they mobilized rural peasants 00:35:31.809 --> 00:35:34.090 against the landholding class in what came to 00:35:34.090 --> 00:35:35.730 be known as I think we may have mentioned it 00:35:35.730 --> 00:35:38.090 before, as the peasants revolt in England, right? 00:35:38.650 --> 00:35:41.719 Here's the thing. And Here we see some left -wing 00:35:41.719 --> 00:35:43.840 populism going on, right? Priests leading the 00:35:43.840 --> 00:35:46.440 people against the elite, except when we remember 00:35:46.440 --> 00:35:50.280 that in medieval England, priests were the elite. 00:35:51.480 --> 00:35:55.500 Yeah. The peasants certainly did revolt, and 00:35:55.500 --> 00:35:58.409 it was a revolt of the people, but the priests 00:35:58.409 --> 00:36:01.929 usually came from noble families, they were a 00:36:01.929 --> 00:36:03.809 third or fourth son, they weren't going to inherit 00:36:03.809 --> 00:36:05.409 land, they weren't going to inherit a title. 00:36:05.630 --> 00:36:08.829 And so they entered the priesthood in the hopes 00:36:08.829 --> 00:36:10.750 that maybe they could rise up through the church 00:36:10.750 --> 00:36:14.210 hierarchical ranks. So again, a man of the people 00:36:14.210 --> 00:36:17.190 who's not really of the people is not having 00:36:17.190 --> 00:36:19.909 the people's experience, but the people follow 00:36:19.909 --> 00:36:24.639 him. Yeah. If you think that we see a lot of 00:36:24.639 --> 00:36:27.179 this in North America and France in the 18th 00:36:27.179 --> 00:36:30.400 century, the age of revolutions, right? Leaders 00:36:30.400 --> 00:36:33.179 of independence movements from Thomas Jefferson 00:36:33.179 --> 00:36:36.119 in here to Maximilien Robespierre in France, 00:36:36.739 --> 00:36:39.340 framing politics as a struggle between the virtuous 00:36:39.340 --> 00:36:42.619 people and the corrupt nobility or the corrupt 00:36:42.619 --> 00:36:45.059 parliament or whatever it happens to be. And 00:36:45.059 --> 00:36:48.119 once again, in both cases, Thomas Jefferson, 00:36:48.480 --> 00:36:51.139 the equivalent of a multimillionaire in today's 00:36:51.139 --> 00:36:54.300 money living on a planet. with hundreds of enslaved 00:36:54.300 --> 00:36:57.699 African Americans. Maximilien Robespierre, a 00:36:57.699 --> 00:37:00.639 lawyer, a member of the intellectual elite in 00:37:00.639 --> 00:37:04.059 Paris society. These are not people who are having 00:37:04.059 --> 00:37:07.460 the typical popular experience. They're people 00:37:07.460 --> 00:37:11.679 who are using that language to get themselves 00:37:11.679 --> 00:37:17.800 ahead in a lot of cases. And then... When we 00:37:17.800 --> 00:37:20.579 talk about populism, probably most notably, the 00:37:20.579 --> 00:37:23.900 most notable historical example is in the United 00:37:23.900 --> 00:37:27.780 States at the turn of the 20th century. Farm 00:37:27.780 --> 00:37:31.199 and labor politics in that era led to a modern 00:37:31.199 --> 00:37:34.619 populist movement that found itself often at 00:37:34.619 --> 00:37:37.860 odds with both Democrats and Republicans. and 00:37:37.860 --> 00:37:40.199 paved the way for the most significant third 00:37:40.199 --> 00:37:43.079 party in American political history, which was 00:37:43.079 --> 00:37:46.179 known as the populist party or the people's party. 00:37:47.119 --> 00:37:49.440 The populist party had a platform, the Omaha 00:37:49.440 --> 00:37:53.940 platform, as it entered contenders in for congressional 00:37:53.940 --> 00:37:58.039 and even presidential offices. That was seen 00:37:58.039 --> 00:38:01.099 as pretty radical for the day. Today, it would 00:38:01.099 --> 00:38:04.000 barely, barely rattle anybody's sabers. I mean, 00:38:04.119 --> 00:38:07.860 it is. normal things like an income tax and, 00:38:07.860 --> 00:38:10.699 uh, for railroads to be, you know, things that 00:38:10.699 --> 00:38:13.719 are not so radical today. Most significant political 00:38:13.719 --> 00:38:16.900 third political party in American political history. 00:38:16.920 --> 00:38:19.219 Of course, we never see a populist president, 00:38:19.760 --> 00:38:22.639 but, um, we see some that get kind of close in 00:38:22.639 --> 00:38:26.340 some cases. That's really interesting, man. I 00:38:26.340 --> 00:38:29.360 mean, to see that, you know, that having crept 00:38:29.360 --> 00:38:34.070 up, you know, um, at a point in our country's 00:38:34.070 --> 00:38:38.510 history. And I think that also speaks to the 00:38:38.510 --> 00:38:41.510 power of the Democratic and Republican parties 00:38:41.510 --> 00:38:45.230 to that, you know, that it was able to kind of 00:38:45.230 --> 00:38:48.170 thwart, you know, a possible third, you know, 00:38:48.269 --> 00:38:52.510 legitimate third party, you know. And I think 00:38:52.510 --> 00:38:55.530 that speaks volumes about our political landscape, 00:38:55.530 --> 00:38:58.090 particularly when you look at it, you know, I 00:38:58.090 --> 00:39:00.980 think in comparison to other countries and. the 00:39:00.980 --> 00:39:04.860 amount of representation, um, that actually exists 00:39:04.860 --> 00:39:08.300 and beyond, beyond just a two party system. Um, 00:39:08.860 --> 00:39:12.280 so I mean, yeah, gosh, two party systems. What 00:39:12.280 --> 00:39:16.099 a joke. All right. But, all right. So, I mean, 00:39:16.099 --> 00:39:18.119 you know, echo talks about selective populism. 00:39:18.239 --> 00:39:22.760 Yeah. And I mean, we've been really leading on 00:39:22.760 --> 00:39:24.960 the whole idea of populism, but like, what is 00:39:24.960 --> 00:39:27.219 this? What is selective populism? Like, what 00:39:27.219 --> 00:39:32.309 is that all about? Selective populism happens 00:39:32.309 --> 00:39:35.690 when a small group of people or even a single 00:39:35.690 --> 00:39:39.269 leader defines who the people are without really 00:39:39.269 --> 00:39:41.289 getting input from the people themselves. And 00:39:41.289 --> 00:39:43.829 it tends to accompany the rise of a totalitarian 00:39:43.829 --> 00:39:49.590 regime. Hmm. Yeah. So I mean, like, yeah, that, 00:39:49.750 --> 00:39:54.070 I mean, there's a whole idea of, you know, authority, 00:39:54.269 --> 00:39:58.269 authority, like an authoritarian style of populism. 00:39:58.380 --> 00:40:01.760 You know, and I mean, it's probably not hard 00:40:01.760 --> 00:40:05.679 to see how the two could be linked, but I mean, 00:40:05.719 --> 00:40:08.460 you know, I don't want to assume, right? Oh no, 00:40:08.619 --> 00:40:10.659 it's, they're absolutely linked, right? When 00:40:10.659 --> 00:40:13.760 a single leader or movement speaks for the people, 00:40:13.960 --> 00:40:17.920 uh, they can do that because they first identify 00:40:17.920 --> 00:40:21.719 and set the people against an external force, 00:40:21.760 --> 00:40:24.119 an enemy of some sort, right? And so then they 00:40:24.119 --> 00:40:26.679 can say, well, we are talking about the will 00:40:26.679 --> 00:40:28.460 of the people, we represent the collective will 00:40:28.460 --> 00:40:31.639 of the people. But the people are no longer talking 00:40:31.639 --> 00:40:33.579 for themselves now, right? The people are not 00:40:33.579 --> 00:40:35.980 advocating for themselves. They're turning to 00:40:35.980 --> 00:40:38.440 this leader who is supposedly advocating on their 00:40:38.440 --> 00:40:41.199 behalf. And so when that starts to happen, we 00:40:41.199 --> 00:40:43.940 have to pause really and ask ourselves what's 00:40:43.940 --> 00:40:47.559 happening and whether this is populism as the 00:40:47.559 --> 00:40:50.320 more general sort of possibly even left leaning 00:40:50.320 --> 00:40:52.659 ideology or whether something else is going on 00:40:52.659 --> 00:40:56.599 here. Right? Yeah, we see leaders and regimes 00:40:56.599 --> 00:41:00.340 moving toward authoritarian populism. They take 00:41:00.340 --> 00:41:03.360 the focus from the empowerment of the people. 00:41:03.719 --> 00:41:06.980 And the people just become a prop for the leader 00:41:06.980 --> 00:41:10.579 or regime to wield in speeches and rallies and 00:41:10.579 --> 00:41:14.079 propaganda. Right? We are faceless, nameless, 00:41:14.219 --> 00:41:17.000 we don't matter anymore, except as collectively 00:41:17.000 --> 00:41:21.579 quote, the people. So basically, like, like having 00:41:21.579 --> 00:41:25.260 rallies, after you've won the election and should 00:41:25.260 --> 00:41:28.239 actually be working on policy, but you're touring 00:41:28.239 --> 00:41:31.659 the country and having rallies instead. Because 00:41:31.659 --> 00:41:33.360 what else do you have? You know nothing about 00:41:33.360 --> 00:41:35.460 the people. You've defined who they are, but 00:41:35.460 --> 00:41:37.739 you haven't drawn on what they've said that they 00:41:37.739 --> 00:41:40.320 want and they need. Except for, of course, that 00:41:40.320 --> 00:41:44.139 base that is with the whole racial propaganda 00:41:44.139 --> 00:41:47.280 and all of that very hateful stuff. Most of the 00:41:47.280 --> 00:41:50.639 people, honestly, who voted for what we're seeing 00:41:50.639 --> 00:41:53.409 right now, didn't vote for all of the things 00:41:53.409 --> 00:41:55.110 that we're seeing right now and then some of 00:41:55.110 --> 00:41:56.750 them are starting to speak out as you have pointed 00:41:56.750 --> 00:41:59.190 out in previous episodes you know that the mask 00:41:59.190 --> 00:42:02.449 is starting to slide off a little bit right but 00:42:02.449 --> 00:42:05.510 just like masculinity and sexual purity from 00:42:05.510 --> 00:42:09.230 our previous episode Authoritarian populism is 00:42:09.230 --> 00:42:12.250 performative and it requires symbols and scripts 00:42:12.250 --> 00:42:14.929 and ritual affirmation and all of the things 00:42:14.929 --> 00:42:17.590 that go along with that. So if you think I mentioned 00:42:17.590 --> 00:42:20.409 earlier, symbols and slogans, getting the right 00:42:20.409 --> 00:42:24.030 wing populists all up in a frothing uproar, slogans, 00:42:24.349 --> 00:42:27.570 flags, curated photo opportunities, marches, 00:42:27.690 --> 00:42:30.590 all of these things become the performance and 00:42:30.590 --> 00:42:33.070 they're devoid of any actual substance. They're 00:42:33.070 --> 00:42:36.570 just look. like something. You look like you're 00:42:36.570 --> 00:42:38.730 speaking on behalf of the people, but you haven't 00:42:38.730 --> 00:42:42.150 really told anybody who the people are, right? 00:42:42.250 --> 00:42:46.510 And of course, the selective part of this is 00:42:46.510 --> 00:42:48.969 a big part, right? Once the authority of the 00:42:48.969 --> 00:42:53.210 people is handed over to the authoritarian leader, 00:42:54.030 --> 00:42:56.889 the leader then gets to narrow the playing field. 00:42:57.710 --> 00:43:00.809 The leader then gets to decide who does and who 00:43:00.809 --> 00:43:05.659 doesn't constitute the by now fictional people, 00:43:06.199 --> 00:43:09.619 right? Outsiders must go one way or another, 00:43:09.699 --> 00:43:13.619 whether that's deportations or eventually in 00:43:13.619 --> 00:43:18.139 some extreme cases genocide. Well, yes, absolutely. 00:43:18.639 --> 00:43:20.800 Or, you know, and gosh, you took what you went 00:43:20.800 --> 00:43:22.579 to the furthest extreme. So like now I'll be 00:43:22.579 --> 00:43:27.119 adding my little war on blue cities and such, 00:43:27.119 --> 00:43:29.780 you know, seems so insignificant. But the fact 00:43:29.780 --> 00:43:32.619 that, yeah, I mean, It's like, we're seeing this 00:43:32.619 --> 00:43:35.539 because it's like, you know, Donald Trump has 00:43:35.539 --> 00:43:37.400 decided who his people are. It's the MAGA is 00:43:37.400 --> 00:43:39.800 whoever supports him, you know, come, come what 00:43:39.800 --> 00:43:43.619 may. And I mean, we're in a government shutdown 00:43:43.619 --> 00:43:46.400 because of that, where, you know, he is literally 00:43:46.400 --> 00:43:49.800 sending troops into blue cities specifically 00:43:49.800 --> 00:43:54.280 because there is a war going on, you know? Um, 00:43:54.380 --> 00:43:57.179 and he's doing his, he's doing his damnedest 00:43:57.179 --> 00:44:02.079 to to separate us from that aspect as well um 00:44:02.079 --> 00:44:04.159 but i mean all it takes is someone turning on 00:44:04.159 --> 00:44:07.239 a camera because it's not happening it's not 00:44:07.239 --> 00:44:10.420 real but he makes us question our own reality 00:44:10.420 --> 00:44:14.190 right uh back to um Don't remember which episode 00:44:14.190 --> 00:44:16.489 it was now, but when we were talking about the 00:44:16.489 --> 00:44:19.349 the allegory of the cave, right? Right shows 00:44:19.349 --> 00:44:21.929 us these scary shadows that we all see and go 00:44:21.929 --> 00:44:25.130 Oh, no, what's going on? And the reality is not 00:44:25.130 --> 00:44:27.789 showing that at all But the Portland freedom 00:44:27.789 --> 00:44:31.190 frog in a shadow doesn't look so fun He looks 00:44:31.190 --> 00:44:33.670 like a scary kind of a thing to the people who 00:44:33.670 --> 00:44:37.269 are oh my god. Yes So terrifying so terrifying 00:44:37.269 --> 00:44:39.670 gotta watch out for him. Yeah gotta watch out. 00:44:39.670 --> 00:44:43.739 Of course the The thing that he does, the leader, 00:44:44.260 --> 00:44:46.639 the things that he does to accompany all of this, 00:44:46.719 --> 00:44:48.900 to make sure that he continues to consolidate 00:44:48.900 --> 00:44:52.480 his own ability to interpret the will of the 00:44:52.480 --> 00:44:55.880 people, if he completely delegitimizes... any 00:44:55.880 --> 00:44:58.380 kind of parliamentary or procedural democracy, 00:44:58.639 --> 00:45:01.880 right? He pushes for a totalitarian style of 00:45:01.880 --> 00:45:05.300 rulership by casting Congress or the parliament 00:45:05.300 --> 00:45:07.280 or whoever it happens to be that's in charge 00:45:07.280 --> 00:45:11.460 of the legislation as completely corrupt, as 00:45:11.460 --> 00:45:14.960 inept, as too slow, and as betraying the will 00:45:14.960 --> 00:45:17.980 of the people. And of course, that sounds like 00:45:17.980 --> 00:45:21.719 something to the Nameless faceless mob of people, 00:45:21.860 --> 00:45:24.679 right? Oh, we're being betrayed by the institutions, 00:45:24.980 --> 00:45:26.619 right? So we got to put our trust in the leader 00:45:26.619 --> 00:45:30.119 now. Right. And then we're doing that. And then 00:45:30.119 --> 00:45:32.199 we see that the people he picks to represent 00:45:32.199 --> 00:45:35.679 us as a country are just, I mean, like they're 00:45:35.679 --> 00:45:38.159 straight up shitting the bed, you know? And I 00:45:38.159 --> 00:45:40.340 mean, they think that they're quote unquote owning 00:45:40.340 --> 00:45:42.559 the libs when they do it, but no, they're not. 00:45:42.699 --> 00:45:44.900 They're just descending this country into more 00:45:44.900 --> 00:45:48.860 of a clown show, into more of a, you know, absolute 00:45:49.989 --> 00:45:53.829 Uh, joke to the rest of the world. I mean, do 00:45:53.829 --> 00:45:56.530 you, I mean, authoritarian countries aren't looking 00:45:56.530 --> 00:45:59.570 at what's going on here and saying, Hey, yeah, 00:45:59.570 --> 00:46:01.809 we're proud of like, Hey, it's one of us, you 00:46:01.809 --> 00:46:03.369 know, look at how great they're doing. They're 00:46:03.369 --> 00:46:06.309 laughing at us too. They're saying, look what 00:46:06.309 --> 00:46:10.610 we're making this buffoon due to this, the, the 00:46:10.610 --> 00:46:13.389 so quote unquote greatest country in the world. 00:46:13.849 --> 00:46:16.849 Right. Yes, absolutely and that makes it just 00:46:16.849 --> 00:46:19.329 as you know, just that much more dangerous because 00:46:19.329 --> 00:46:21.650 it's a clown show But it's one that's currently 00:46:21.650 --> 00:46:24.829 in control. Yeah, absolutely And I mean, I'll 00:46:24.829 --> 00:46:26.250 be honest with you I mean there was a lot of 00:46:26.250 --> 00:46:28.429 I won't say hope but I was like, you know How 00:46:28.429 --> 00:46:30.050 much damage can they really do? And I mean I 00:46:30.050 --> 00:46:32.030 was day that's such a naive question, right? 00:46:32.090 --> 00:46:33.849 Because clearly it's a lot, you know, because 00:46:33.849 --> 00:46:36.530 we're not even a year in you know And I mean 00:46:36.530 --> 00:46:40.150 we look at I mean the damage that has been done 00:46:40.400 --> 00:46:43.639 I mean, to people's rights, to our economy. I 00:46:43.639 --> 00:46:46.719 mean, I don't know that we can point to a single 00:46:46.719 --> 00:46:51.500 thing, um, in our country right now as a, as 00:46:51.500 --> 00:46:54.840 like a shining beacon of success. I just don't, 00:46:55.039 --> 00:46:56.679 our unemployment rates, the highest it's ever 00:46:56.679 --> 00:47:00.659 been. Inflation is kicking up. I mean, it's just 00:47:00.659 --> 00:47:03.880 one, I mean, I don't, where, where, what, what 00:47:03.880 --> 00:47:08.039 metrics are we using to claim the success that 00:47:08.039 --> 00:47:11.940 they are right now? completely made up metrics, 00:47:12.400 --> 00:47:14.360 performed metrics, things that don't actually 00:47:14.360 --> 00:47:16.880 match up with any real data or real statistics. 00:47:16.960 --> 00:47:20.400 And they prove that all of the time. His speeches 00:47:20.400 --> 00:47:23.860 to the United Nations and about, you know, stopping 00:47:23.860 --> 00:47:26.219 the wars, his campaigning for the Nobel Prize, 00:47:26.900 --> 00:47:29.260 one of those match with any reality. And yet 00:47:29.260 --> 00:47:33.019 somehow he gets them to believe all of it. Right. 00:47:33.460 --> 00:47:36.000 And really, if you think about it, when we look 00:47:36.000 --> 00:47:38.139 back at the Nazis and the other fascists in Europe 00:47:38.139 --> 00:47:40.809 in the 20th century, They are maybe not saying 00:47:40.809 --> 00:47:44.869 things that sound as silly to us, because, you 00:47:44.869 --> 00:47:46.829 know, we weren't used to Hitler as as a sort 00:47:46.829 --> 00:47:49.610 of dried up game show host or reality show host. 00:47:49.949 --> 00:47:52.670 But, you know, in a lot of ways, they're also 00:47:52.670 --> 00:47:55.369 silly and clownish. And the performance aspect 00:47:55.369 --> 00:47:59.000 is all there. Right. Yeah. Mussolini. Envisioned 00:47:59.000 --> 00:48:01.920 the Italian people as the natural successors 00:48:01.920 --> 00:48:06.039 of the Roman Empire, unified, destined for glory, 00:48:06.760 --> 00:48:09.460 militarily strong, ready for conquest, right? 00:48:10.199 --> 00:48:14.650 But it was selective. Not all Italians counted. 00:48:15.590 --> 00:48:19.329 Socialists and liberals and Jews and dissenters, 00:48:19.590 --> 00:48:22.570 pacifists, homosexuals, none of these folks were 00:48:22.570 --> 00:48:26.110 included in the so -called people and were therefore 00:48:26.110 --> 00:48:29.409 subject to all kinds of discrimination and persecution. 00:48:29.949 --> 00:48:32.070 I mean, you know that you just described like 00:48:32.070 --> 00:48:35.670 one of the better and, you know, one of the last, 00:48:35.670 --> 00:48:38.530 you know, I think one of the last songs of The 00:48:38.530 --> 00:48:42.579 Wall, right? See him in the theater tonight get 00:48:42.579 --> 00:48:44.719 him up against the wall get him up against the 00:48:44.719 --> 00:48:48.519 wall If I if I had my way, I'd have all of them 00:48:48.519 --> 00:48:51.579 shot, right? It's very exactly in that moment 00:48:51.579 --> 00:48:54.239 pink is going through this sort of fascist kind 00:48:54.239 --> 00:48:56.659 of a moment in Oh, yeah journey and if you haven't 00:48:56.659 --> 00:48:58.179 seen the wall None of this makes any sense to 00:48:58.179 --> 00:48:59.980 you and even if you have seen the wall It might 00:48:59.980 --> 00:49:02.599 not make much sense to you. But still it's terrifying 00:49:02.599 --> 00:49:05.079 because again, you're watching that You know, 00:49:05.079 --> 00:49:07.440 it's it's one of my my favorite albums of all 00:49:07.440 --> 00:49:11.730 time, you know and it's a crazy movie and I'd 00:49:11.730 --> 00:49:14.349 love it to death. But I mean, when you watch 00:49:14.349 --> 00:49:21.070 it now, watch it now and tell me and tell me 00:49:21.070 --> 00:49:25.550 to my face that you do not see the stark similarities 00:49:25.550 --> 00:49:28.409 and what's happening in our country today. Right. 00:49:28.719 --> 00:49:32.900 Right and just like in that scene right a lot 00:49:32.900 --> 00:49:37.239 of this unfolds in mass rallies under under Mussolini 00:49:37.239 --> 00:49:40.239 if you think about the March on Rome the military 00:49:40.239 --> 00:49:43.420 parades all presented as spontaneous expression 00:49:43.420 --> 00:49:46.219 of the people Despite intense and deliberate 00:49:46.219 --> 00:49:48.440 planning choreography propaganda all the things 00:49:48.440 --> 00:49:52.400 that go into a good performance, right? This 00:49:52.400 --> 00:49:56.989 is all meant to draw attention away from whatever 00:49:56.989 --> 00:50:00.250 reality is happening and to craft this idea of 00:50:00.250 --> 00:50:02.650 the people and again set them against whoever's 00:50:02.650 --> 00:50:06.030 on the outside of this right and of course using 00:50:06.030 --> 00:50:09.179 that anti -parliamentary rhetoric. So if we go 00:50:09.179 --> 00:50:11.820 back to Echo's words, right, Mussolini's statement 00:50:11.820 --> 00:50:15.000 about turning parliament into a bivouac for his 00:50:15.000 --> 00:50:19.300 man nipples. When I go to listen to this episode 00:50:19.300 --> 00:50:21.000 later, I'm going to giggle like a little girl 00:50:21.000 --> 00:50:26.440 wherever I happen. Oh, yes. But, you know, his 00:50:26.440 --> 00:50:28.619 successive moves to strip power from elected 00:50:28.619 --> 00:50:32.039 democracy. This is all part of part and parcel 00:50:32.039 --> 00:50:35.469 of the playbook. Right? If we turn to the other 00:50:35.469 --> 00:50:39.809 guy, the Hitler, the mustache guy, he embraced 00:50:39.809 --> 00:50:44.750 this focused pan -German movement and portrayed 00:50:44.750 --> 00:50:46.889 the, let me see if I can get this right, the 00:50:46.889 --> 00:50:50.409 Volksgemeinschaft or the people's community as 00:50:50.409 --> 00:50:54.210 a racially pure ethnically German and unified 00:50:54.210 --> 00:50:56.699 nation. Now he's talking not only about people 00:50:56.699 --> 00:50:59.260 who live in Germany, mind you, but people who 00:50:59.260 --> 00:51:02.340 live in Czechoslovakia, people who live in Austria, 00:51:02.539 --> 00:51:04.719 people who live in the United States, all are 00:51:04.719 --> 00:51:07.860 part of this greater ethnic German nation that 00:51:07.860 --> 00:51:11.780 was supposedly monolithic, right? And pure, right? 00:51:13.119 --> 00:51:16.599 But of course, it's selective. Yep, not all Germans 00:51:16.599 --> 00:51:20.159 counted. Jews, Roma, communists, homosexuals, 00:51:20.400 --> 00:51:23.519 the disabled, all of them excluded from the people 00:51:23.519 --> 00:51:26.559 and were subject to persecution and in too many 00:51:26.559 --> 00:51:32.039 cases extermination as quote parasites who threatened 00:51:32.039 --> 00:51:35.039 the community. So if you're not one of the people 00:51:35.039 --> 00:51:38.920 in this fascist ideology then you're a parasite. 00:51:39.059 --> 00:51:42.219 And that includes the elites as well as the outsiders 00:51:42.219 --> 00:51:48.320 who are beneath Nazi purity standards. Yeah. 00:51:48.400 --> 00:51:50.139 Yeah. I mean, it's, it's fascinating. I mean, 00:51:50.179 --> 00:51:52.800 in like, you know, I've certainly heard that 00:51:52.800 --> 00:51:55.420 rhetoric and that terminology, you know, before, 00:51:55.420 --> 00:51:58.280 um, but I will say that I just recently watched 00:51:58.280 --> 00:52:01.260 the, um, that episode, uh, that series monster, 00:52:01.380 --> 00:52:04.489 the Ed Gaines story on Netflix and it's Bat shit 00:52:04.489 --> 00:52:08.070 crazy, but, um, you know, one of his supposed 00:52:08.070 --> 00:52:11.150 fascinations was what was going on in Nazi Germany. 00:52:11.269 --> 00:52:15.909 Um, and he became fascinated with a female over 00:52:15.909 --> 00:52:18.889 there that, you know, um, by all rights, you 00:52:18.889 --> 00:52:23.070 know, um, committed some horrific, uh, war crimes, 00:52:23.409 --> 00:52:26.409 but most importantly was making furniture from 00:52:26.409 --> 00:52:31.289 the skin of, uh, dead Jewish people. Um, but 00:52:31.289 --> 00:52:34.210 she specifically, she, in, in one of the scenes, 00:52:34.329 --> 00:52:37.690 she, you know, um, in his imagination, I think, 00:52:37.829 --> 00:52:40.809 or was being brought on trial. And she said that 00:52:40.809 --> 00:52:43.829 she did nothing wrong. They were just parasites. 00:52:44.530 --> 00:52:46.469 And I think like for the window to have to like, 00:52:46.730 --> 00:52:48.929 to actually hear that, you know, is that like, 00:52:49.050 --> 00:52:51.269 to have, to have that mentality that like, you're 00:52:51.269 --> 00:52:53.730 doing some horrific, horrific, this isn't one 00:52:53.730 --> 00:52:56.949 like being dismissive of some of someone, you 00:52:56.949 --> 00:52:58.670 know, or a group of people, but like doing the 00:52:58.670 --> 00:53:00.909 most horrific, I mean, making furniture that 00:53:00.909 --> 00:53:04.369 you display in your home from their skin, like 00:53:04.369 --> 00:53:07.469 lampshades and things and saying that's not a 00:53:07.469 --> 00:53:10.409 problem at all. That's completely fine because 00:53:10.409 --> 00:53:13.289 they're just parasites, like a flea, like a flea, 00:53:13.309 --> 00:53:16.010 like lice. I mean, like, well, these are parasites. 00:53:17.019 --> 00:53:19.599 That's the analogy I was literally just going 00:53:19.599 --> 00:53:22.980 to make. Think about how natural that is in all 00:53:22.980 --> 00:53:27.199 humanity to some extent, right? If you hit a 00:53:27.199 --> 00:53:29.320 rabbit with your car, how are you going to feel 00:53:29.320 --> 00:53:32.340 about that? I mean, probably bad for just a bit 00:53:32.340 --> 00:53:34.099 because I mean, you know, you don't want to harm 00:53:34.099 --> 00:53:36.079 an animal, but also too, there's a lot of them 00:53:36.079 --> 00:53:37.880 around. And I mean, you know, maybe it shouldn't 00:53:37.880 --> 00:53:40.210 have been in the road. I don't know, but. If 00:53:40.210 --> 00:53:42.190 you step on a cockroach, are you going to even 00:53:42.190 --> 00:53:45.429 have that moment? Not at all. Like, no, that's 00:53:45.429 --> 00:53:47.929 a victory, man. That's a victory. Right. Right. 00:53:48.070 --> 00:53:51.510 I chase spiders with fire. You know, but if I 00:53:51.510 --> 00:53:53.469 hit a squirrel, I'm going to. That's my day. 00:53:53.489 --> 00:53:58.150 Oh, no. Right. So, yeah. You know, power takes 00:53:58.150 --> 00:54:01.010 this and they run with it. Right. Turn the people 00:54:01.010 --> 00:54:03.610 who are not part of you, the others, the people 00:54:03.610 --> 00:54:06.710 outside of the people into cockroaches, into 00:54:06.710 --> 00:54:10.320 parasites, into. vermin into filth that are you 00:54:10.320 --> 00:54:12.139 know quote -unquote poisoning the blood of our 00:54:12.139 --> 00:54:15.179 country and then you get the people fictional 00:54:15.179 --> 00:54:18.980 as they are to go after them and see your agenda 00:54:18.980 --> 00:54:22.269 through right yep and again Hitler does all of 00:54:22.269 --> 00:54:25.409 this kind of speaking and ideological making 00:54:25.409 --> 00:54:28.710 of the greater Germany through Nuremberg rallies 00:54:28.710 --> 00:54:30.449 and we've all seen them and they're all very 00:54:30.449 --> 00:54:33.150 seductive with their swastikas and their Hugo 00:54:33.150 --> 00:54:36.429 Boss uniforms and things like that. Nazi propaganda 00:54:36.429 --> 00:54:40.610 control of state media gave the illusion of a 00:54:40.610 --> 00:54:45.010 unanimously unified country with Hitler alone 00:54:45.010 --> 00:54:48.909 as the vox populi and the sole interpreter of 00:54:48.909 --> 00:54:53.260 the people's will, right? And as a reminder, 00:54:54.260 --> 00:54:56.800 he did all this, he rose to power, the Nazis 00:54:56.800 --> 00:55:01.559 rose to power through illusory or pseudo democratic 00:55:01.559 --> 00:55:04.980 participation, using tightly controlled electoral 00:55:04.980 --> 00:55:08.750 referendums to claim overwhelming support. right? 00:55:09.170 --> 00:55:11.469 When Germany withdrew from the League of Nations 00:55:11.469 --> 00:55:15.570 in 1933 and when they did the Anschluss, the 00:55:15.570 --> 00:55:20.070 joining with Austria in 1938, all of this was 00:55:20.070 --> 00:55:22.929 done with referendums that were tightly controlled 00:55:22.929 --> 00:55:26.250 so there was no other option but the Nazis. laws. 00:55:26.349 --> 00:55:28.250 Right, right. And then the Nazis get to say, 00:55:28.269 --> 00:55:30.090 Well, look, we were overwhelmingly supported 00:55:30.090 --> 00:55:34.369 by the people in doing these things. Now, think 00:55:34.369 --> 00:55:37.550 back to the 2024 election and what the actual 00:55:37.550 --> 00:55:41.550 popular vote numbers showed. And yet, the Trump 00:55:41.550 --> 00:55:43.710 administration has been running roughshod ever 00:55:43.710 --> 00:55:47.130 since claiming they have an overwhelming landslide 00:55:47.130 --> 00:55:50.449 mandate to do all that they're doing. When in 00:55:50.449 --> 00:55:54.449 truth, They got a little over 51, 52 % of the 00:55:54.449 --> 00:55:58.369 vote. Well, the reality is if, if that were the 00:55:58.369 --> 00:56:00.949 reality, if they had the popular vote and they 00:56:00.949 --> 00:56:03.750 had as much support as they did right now, they 00:56:03.750 --> 00:56:07.070 would not be fighting so fucking hard to gerrymander 00:56:07.070 --> 00:56:09.989 every single map they can get their hands on. 00:56:10.400 --> 00:56:12.599 Right? The proof is in the pudding, right? Why 00:56:12.599 --> 00:56:14.400 are you this worried about it? If you're, if 00:56:14.400 --> 00:56:16.500 you're winning handily and you had, and you think 00:56:16.500 --> 00:56:18.500 that you're doing the will of people as they 00:56:18.500 --> 00:56:21.059 want, then why are you trying to rig this whole, 00:56:21.059 --> 00:56:24.940 right? But again, common threads with the fascists 00:56:24.940 --> 00:56:27.960 of the 20th century. The people are one, they're 00:56:27.960 --> 00:56:30.900 indivisible and they're uncorrupted. And the 00:56:30.900 --> 00:56:33.179 leader embodies the voice and the will of the 00:56:33.179 --> 00:56:36.800 people. Institutions are corrupt. They're obsolete. 00:56:37.139 --> 00:56:40.699 They're treacherous participation. Here's a good 00:56:40.699 --> 00:56:44.960 one, right? Participation is compulsory. If you 00:56:44.960 --> 00:56:48.320 are of the people, then you participate in all 00:56:48.320 --> 00:56:51.719 of this. There is no genuine free will here. 00:56:51.880 --> 00:56:54.679 And I think that's where we're, we're seeing 00:56:54.679 --> 00:56:59.280 the cracks, you know, on the surface right now 00:56:59.280 --> 00:57:04.360 is that, you know, Trump expects MAGA to just 00:57:04.360 --> 00:57:08.639 like participate. without question. And some 00:57:08.639 --> 00:57:10.900 of the things that are happening right now, the 00:57:10.900 --> 00:57:13.219 Epstein files being a big one, I think the government 00:57:13.219 --> 00:57:16.380 shutdown is starting to, you know, have an impact. 00:57:16.440 --> 00:57:19.840 I think the reality of our country shutting down 00:57:19.840 --> 00:57:24.019 while we fund Argentina to buy the soybeans from 00:57:24.019 --> 00:57:26.739 China or China. So, you know, there's definitely 00:57:26.739 --> 00:57:29.480 the soybean situation why our farmers in the 00:57:29.480 --> 00:57:32.219 Midwest are Literally shutting their farms down. 00:57:32.219 --> 00:57:35.019 I think all of that is starting to crack and 00:57:35.019 --> 00:57:39.199 so to the point that you know, I mean Trump has 00:57:39.199 --> 00:57:44.639 come out in recent weeks and Called his supporters 00:57:44.639 --> 00:57:48.519 dumb or wanting to smart people don't like me 00:57:48.519 --> 00:57:53.360 To what to to because they want to see the Epstein 00:57:53.360 --> 00:57:57.909 files because they campaigned so heavily on releasing 00:57:57.909 --> 00:58:00.829 them when they got into power day one, that was 00:58:00.829 --> 00:58:04.489 going to be it, you know? Um, so, you know, I, 00:58:04.489 --> 00:58:07.010 I feel like I've just been making constant, you 00:58:07.010 --> 00:58:10.070 know, um, exam or make references to examples 00:58:10.070 --> 00:58:12.909 that are happening in modern day. So yes, I mean, 00:58:12.929 --> 00:58:19.329 to me, as we talk about this, it sounds so familiar 00:58:19.329 --> 00:58:25.260 and so relevant right now. Well, it absolutely 00:58:25.260 --> 00:58:28.739 should right it should sound familiar It should 00:58:28.739 --> 00:58:30.900 sound relevant because as you've been saying 00:58:30.900 --> 00:58:32.739 throughout the whole episode and as we've been 00:58:32.739 --> 00:58:35.300 saying throughout our whole season Yeah, we're 00:58:35.300 --> 00:58:37.280 seeing it in real time We are living through 00:58:37.280 --> 00:58:41.159 it right this moment every single USA chant every 00:58:41.159 --> 00:58:43.960 red hat It's all just a remix of the same old 00:58:43.960 --> 00:58:48.840 song right a unified pure people singing with 00:58:48.840 --> 00:58:53.539 a single pure voice and interpreted by a single 00:58:53.760 --> 00:58:56.860 pure leader. And that's exactly how Donald Trump 00:58:56.860 --> 00:59:00.559 is framing all of this. Right. But he's got, 00:59:00.860 --> 00:59:04.039 I mean, but he's got simpler. He's not pure. 00:59:04.500 --> 00:59:06.639 I mean, the bro, the dude has, let's be honest. 00:59:06.739 --> 00:59:08.079 I mean, like, you know, I'm not trying to get 00:59:08.079 --> 00:59:10.739 conspiracy theory on everybody right now, but 00:59:10.739 --> 00:59:15.639 I mean, do some, don't even research, just read 00:59:15.639 --> 00:59:18.000 what the symptoms of late stage syphilis is. 00:59:19.150 --> 00:59:21.809 Well, I mean that but I mean just well think 00:59:21.809 --> 00:59:24.050 back to our last episode about masculinity and 00:59:24.050 --> 00:59:27.289 sexual purity. Oh, yeah The points we made about 00:59:27.289 --> 00:59:29.329 Donald Trump in his history. There's nothing 00:59:29.329 --> 00:59:32.050 pure about this man But that doesn't matter because 00:59:32.050 --> 00:59:34.369 that's the reality and all of this is a performance, 00:59:34.369 --> 00:59:38.289 right? Donald Trump and his movement selectively 00:59:38.289 --> 00:59:42.230 Identify the people with terms like real Americans 00:59:42.230 --> 00:59:46.619 and Aga nation Right? Yep. These movements automatically 00:59:46.619 --> 00:59:49.739 exclude immigrants, Democrats, intellectuals, 00:59:49.960 --> 00:59:52.679 Black Lives Matter activists, journalists, LGBTQ 00:59:52.679 --> 00:59:56.320 plus communities, Antifa, and anyone else who 00:59:56.320 --> 01:00:00.440 questions his vision of American greatness. Not 01:00:00.440 --> 01:00:05.940 the people's vision, his, because he is the sole 01:00:05.940 --> 01:00:10.300 vox populi. If you think back to the 2016 GOP 01:00:10.300 --> 01:00:13.519 convention when he was nominated as the GOP nominee 01:00:13.519 --> 01:00:16.739 for president, he made the statement, I alone 01:00:16.739 --> 01:00:21.489 can fix it. And in both of his terms, he has 01:00:21.489 --> 01:00:23.809 made a point of bypassing institutions, whether 01:00:23.809 --> 01:00:27.130 they're the courts, Congress or the press, by 01:00:27.130 --> 01:00:30.730 claiming to speak directly to and for the people 01:00:30.730 --> 01:00:33.869 through campaign style speeches and his damned 01:00:33.869 --> 01:00:35.869 social media, his tweeting in the middle of the 01:00:35.869 --> 01:00:37.789 night on the toilet or whatever it is he's doing. 01:00:38.070 --> 01:00:39.889 Well, the reality is that's not even him. Like, 01:00:40.010 --> 01:00:42.530 I mean, we got to lay it on the line, you know? 01:00:42.630 --> 01:00:45.630 And I mean, for all of you out there. You know, 01:00:45.849 --> 01:00:47.670 very unlikely having listened to this podcast, 01:00:47.869 --> 01:00:49.730 but if you are, and you really think that this 01:00:49.730 --> 01:00:51.329 fool is up at three o 'clock in the morning, 01:00:51.429 --> 01:00:53.329 sit here and tweeting, then I mean, then you're 01:00:53.329 --> 01:00:56.789 the fool because you know what? One. No one in 01:00:56.789 --> 01:00:58.150 the right mind should really think that's the 01:00:58.150 --> 01:01:00.869 case. Anyway, I mean, do have you not heard of 01:01:00.869 --> 01:01:03.110 marketing in the social media team? If you haven't, 01:01:03.150 --> 01:01:05.210 let me introduce you to it. It's 20, 25. You 01:01:05.210 --> 01:01:06.949 should know this by now. Most people don't run 01:01:06.949 --> 01:01:09.610 their own social medias, especially at that level. 01:01:09.809 --> 01:01:11.409 They have people, they have a team of people 01:01:11.409 --> 01:01:14.010 doing it for them. Yes. There is somebody out 01:01:14.010 --> 01:01:16.909 there ghostwriting these batshit crazy tweets. 01:01:17.329 --> 01:01:19.820 And guess what? He's approving them. And you 01:01:19.820 --> 01:01:22.300 want to know why we know that for a fact, because 01:01:22.300 --> 01:01:24.619 was that Marco Rubio's came in there with a little 01:01:24.619 --> 01:01:27.400 note. It says, we need you to like approve your 01:01:27.400 --> 01:01:29.159 true social posts that you can be the first one 01:01:29.159 --> 01:01:31.739 to announce whatever nonsense they were announcing 01:01:31.739 --> 01:01:34.219 that particular day. That's why we know it's 01:01:34.219 --> 01:01:36.679 the case. That's why we know it's the case. I 01:01:36.679 --> 01:01:39.099 mean, this, this man has, you know what he's 01:01:39.099 --> 01:01:41.559 doing? He's watching TV and he's sitting on the 01:01:41.559 --> 01:01:43.179 porch, watching them build his big, beautiful 01:01:43.179 --> 01:01:47.090 ballroom. Yep. that's more or less what he and 01:01:47.090 --> 01:01:48.769 that's what he wanted out of this right get rich 01:01:48.769 --> 01:01:51.929 while I can do practically nothing but because 01:01:51.929 --> 01:01:55.110 I'm a tv star and because I'm a man of the people 01:01:55.110 --> 01:01:57.710 then I've constantly got to be aggrandizing myself 01:01:57.710 --> 01:02:00.250 and making these bombastic speeches saying all 01:02:00.250 --> 01:02:02.590 kinds of ridiculous shit that doesn't make sense 01:02:02.590 --> 01:02:06.079 because none of it's true but you know He gets 01:02:06.079 --> 01:02:09.039 away with bypassing the institutions and with 01:02:09.039 --> 01:02:11.800 violating these democratic norms because he just 01:02:11.800 --> 01:02:14.300 completely delegitimizes all of that, right? 01:02:14.519 --> 01:02:17.099 You brought up earlier the swamp, right? Or fake 01:02:17.099 --> 01:02:21.219 news, rigged elections, all of his January 6th 01:02:21.219 --> 01:02:24.539 rhetoric about Congress betraying the people, 01:02:24.920 --> 01:02:29.000 right? He said that in his speech. I'm paraphrasing, 01:02:29.039 --> 01:02:31.739 but he said that... The certification of the 01:02:31.739 --> 01:02:34.780 2020 election was a congressional act to betray 01:02:34.780 --> 01:02:40.460 the will of the people and court rulings, elections, 01:02:40.800 --> 01:02:44.159 congressional legislation. These are only legitimate 01:02:44.159 --> 01:02:48.000 if they serve his vision. Right. Right. If they 01:02:48.000 --> 01:02:51.699 don't completely rigged, completely fake news, 01:02:52.199 --> 01:02:54.920 nothing, they always blame Trump. You know, it's 01:02:55.199 --> 01:02:59.119 constant because he needs to craft this stage 01:02:59.119 --> 01:03:02.280 performance that doesn't have any cracks in it. 01:03:02.440 --> 01:03:05.079 That's how he consolidates his power. And he 01:03:05.079 --> 01:03:09.159 demands these theatrical displays of power and 01:03:09.159 --> 01:03:12.460 crafted popular unity. So every single event, 01:03:12.519 --> 01:03:14.739 regardless of how big or small it happens to 01:03:14.739 --> 01:03:20.139 be, regardless of how much gravitas is on the 01:03:20.139 --> 01:03:22.619 moment, every single event that he's a part of 01:03:22.619 --> 01:03:25.949 becomes a rally. with chanting crowds and with 01:03:25.949 --> 01:03:30.389 MAGA hats and other paraphernalia with US and 01:03:30.389 --> 01:03:33.929 Trump flags with merchandise. They sell things 01:03:33.929 --> 01:03:37.150 at the memorial for Charlie Kirk. And listen, 01:03:37.309 --> 01:03:39.590 you know, not to get into that morass again, 01:03:40.150 --> 01:03:43.250 but the memorial for this dead man, they were 01:03:43.250 --> 01:03:46.489 selling things to people. Yep. All right. Well, 01:03:46.489 --> 01:03:47.929 you know, and what's interesting is, you know, 01:03:48.030 --> 01:03:49.550 I mean, yes, you're making an excellent point 01:03:49.550 --> 01:03:53.690 about how He creates these, these scenario, these 01:03:53.690 --> 01:03:55.849 events, if you will, like, you know, in the public 01:03:55.849 --> 01:03:58.230 eye to make himself look like he's far more important, 01:03:58.230 --> 01:04:00.030 but even the pomp and circumstance of having 01:04:00.030 --> 01:04:02.610 these tech billionaires come in here and give 01:04:02.610 --> 01:04:05.190 him gifts, like he's the fucking king or something, 01:04:05.530 --> 01:04:08.670 you know? I mean, it's, it's, you know, it's, 01:04:08.670 --> 01:04:11.210 it, even that is the theatrical is a theatrical 01:04:11.210 --> 01:04:15.070 display, you know? Um, and I mean, it clearly, 01:04:15.070 --> 01:04:18.820 that is being very much crafted. You know, to 01:04:18.820 --> 01:04:23.760 show a vision of this man who can solely, again, 01:04:23.960 --> 01:04:27.920 fix it by himself. Well, and you mentioned earlier 01:04:27.920 --> 01:04:32.340 when we heard from Echo about his prediction, 01:04:32.800 --> 01:04:36.059 his salience in predicting the new kind of techno 01:04:36.059 --> 01:04:40.179 populism, the internet populism. The MAGA movement, 01:04:40.360 --> 01:04:42.719 Donald and all his fellows, they're all amplifying 01:04:42.719 --> 01:04:46.239 a very heavily curated picture of public emotion. 01:04:46.489 --> 01:04:49.849 by using social media and things like that, and 01:04:49.849 --> 01:04:51.789 presenting it as the true will of the people. 01:04:52.650 --> 01:04:54.789 So despite the fact that a lot of the right -wing, 01:04:54.929 --> 01:04:58.130 the more rabid right -wing posts on social media 01:04:58.130 --> 01:05:00.230 are coming from Russian bots and things like 01:05:00.230 --> 01:05:04.070 that, that is all being curated and in some cases 01:05:04.070 --> 01:05:07.510 even put out there by the president himself to 01:05:07.510 --> 01:05:09.829 present as this is what the people want, this 01:05:09.829 --> 01:05:13.269 is what the people voted for, right? And it's 01:05:13.269 --> 01:05:15.309 really, it's really crazy. And it's really scary 01:05:15.309 --> 01:05:17.170 because it just goes to show, I mean, like I 01:05:17.170 --> 01:05:19.489 alluded to it earlier, you know, but like how 01:05:19.489 --> 01:05:22.989 much he's being controlled by these dictatorial 01:05:22.989 --> 01:05:28.590 countries, you know, because he is, I mean, parroting. 01:05:28.809 --> 01:05:31.489 So much of what these Russian bots, they're not, 01:05:31.610 --> 01:05:33.730 it's not even, it's not even the leaders that 01:05:33.730 --> 01:05:35.710 are, it's some dude in a, it's not even a dude, 01:05:35.730 --> 01:05:38.610 you know, it's, it's, it's a computer. It's a 01:05:38.610 --> 01:05:40.469 computer. Yeah, it's a code. It's not, it's not 01:05:40.469 --> 01:05:42.769 even people anymore. It's just machines that 01:05:42.769 --> 01:05:44.590 are doing this and he is picking it right up 01:05:44.590 --> 01:05:47.869 and just parroting it along and making, and, 01:05:48.349 --> 01:05:50.710 and, and, and then, and then giving it legitimacy 01:05:50.710 --> 01:05:53.570 by doing that, by, by parroting it, by putting 01:05:53.570 --> 01:05:57.710 on his truth social, you know, he gives it legitimacy. 01:05:58.110 --> 01:06:01.150 And I mean, he's supposed to be the leader of, 01:06:01.150 --> 01:06:04.789 at one point, the most powerful country in the 01:06:04.789 --> 01:06:09.289 world. And he's being taken by Russian bots. 01:06:09.469 --> 01:06:11.610 Think about that, y 'all. I mean, seriously, 01:06:11.750 --> 01:06:14.289 think about that. There is a computer out there 01:06:14.289 --> 01:06:16.909 writing social posts right now that he is looking 01:06:16.909 --> 01:06:19.349 at and being like, yep, that's it, y 'all. This 01:06:19.349 --> 01:06:21.829 is what I'm putting out in all caps. And so in 01:06:21.829 --> 01:06:24.650 a very real sense, artificial intelligence is 01:06:24.650 --> 01:06:28.400 now running. Jesus Christ, 1984, here we come. 01:06:29.679 --> 01:06:34.099 Well, and you know, he continuously pushes back 01:06:34.099 --> 01:06:36.440 against any kind of dissent because he selectively 01:06:36.440 --> 01:06:38.559 identifies the enemies of the people, whether 01:06:38.559 --> 01:06:41.760 that's the media enemy of the people, or immigrants 01:06:41.760 --> 01:06:44.599 who are rapists and drug dealers, right political 01:06:44.599 --> 01:06:47.920 opponents who are rhinos or radical left Democrats, 01:06:48.599 --> 01:06:52.679 or protesters. who are now terrorists or trans 01:06:52.679 --> 01:06:55.539 people who are or trans or delusional because 01:06:55.539 --> 01:06:57.599 I mean you just mentioned I mean it's like the 01:06:57.599 --> 01:07:00.500 it's like the circle of death you know for for 01:07:00.500 --> 01:07:03.579 for that group you know because they just cycle 01:07:03.579 --> 01:07:08.420 through the media, immigrants, political opponents, 01:07:08.800 --> 01:07:11.559 protesters, and, you know, I've added a transgender 01:07:11.559 --> 01:07:14.179 population. I mean, that is, that's who they 01:07:14.179 --> 01:07:16.860 focus on. It cycles through depending on what's 01:07:16.860 --> 01:07:18.980 going on that day. And if nothing is going on, 01:07:19.059 --> 01:07:21.159 then they'll just manufacture some, some shit, 01:07:21.159 --> 01:07:25.139 you know, like a chat between a potential assessment 01:07:25.139 --> 01:07:28.900 and his transgendered girlfriend. Well, and, 01:07:28.900 --> 01:07:31.199 and speaking of, of generating things to sort 01:07:31.199 --> 01:07:35.179 of press this idea home, even when there's nothing 01:07:35.179 --> 01:07:37.820 actually happening. Yeah, they're going to create 01:07:37.820 --> 01:07:41.400 victories. Oh, because creating victories energizes 01:07:41.400 --> 01:07:44.960 the base. And so even when this guy loses a court 01:07:44.960 --> 01:07:48.619 case or whatever, he claims victory. And he claims 01:07:48.619 --> 01:07:51.000 that legitimate victories that he actually does 01:07:51.000 --> 01:07:54.539 win, such as the 2024 election are overwhelming, 01:07:54.679 --> 01:07:57.019 even when they're very, very close, right. And 01:07:57.019 --> 01:08:01.190 he claims that any losses are fraudulent. and 01:08:01.190 --> 01:08:04.210 that they are due to corrupt forces arrayed against 01:08:04.210 --> 01:08:07.820 him personally. So if you think about things 01:08:07.820 --> 01:08:11.840 like the stolen 2020 election, the Epstein files, 01:08:11.900 --> 01:08:15.320 which is a huge Democrat hoax, even though he 01:08:15.320 --> 01:08:18.520 was the one who ran on releasing them, his denial 01:08:18.520 --> 01:08:21.039 of his complicity in the E. Jean Carroll case, 01:08:21.340 --> 01:08:24.380 his denial of his complicity with Stormy Daniels. 01:08:24.579 --> 01:08:27.180 And every time there was a ruling against him 01:08:27.180 --> 01:08:29.479 in those cases, he's like, no, it's rigged. It's 01:08:29.479 --> 01:08:31.600 totally rigged. I'm innocent. I've done nothing 01:08:31.600 --> 01:08:36.079 at all. Right. Yeah. So he casts this delegitimacy 01:08:36.079 --> 01:08:38.460 on the institutions that are supposed to be serving 01:08:38.460 --> 01:08:41.239 the democracy of the United States. And to paraphrase 01:08:41.239 --> 01:08:44.960 echo, when a politician cast doubt on the legitimacy 01:08:44.960 --> 01:08:47.880 of an institution, because the institution no 01:08:47.880 --> 01:08:50.680 longer represents his vision of the Vox Populi, 01:08:51.520 --> 01:08:56.220 that's when we smell her fascism. Oh, I don't 01:08:56.220 --> 01:08:59.100 know about y 'all, but I think I'm spelling something 01:08:59.100 --> 01:09:02.640 right about now. Uh -huh. And it stinks. And 01:09:02.640 --> 01:09:04.300 it, I was going to say, and it's not cookies. 01:09:06.939 --> 01:09:09.579 So, man, I mean, you know, we've, you know, we've, 01:09:09.619 --> 01:09:11.920 we've touched on a lot of things here and just 01:09:11.920 --> 01:09:15.140 to kind of start to wrap this up here, you know, 01:09:15.539 --> 01:09:18.239 I guess the question after everything that we've 01:09:18.239 --> 01:09:24.920 talked about is who are the people then really? 01:09:26.340 --> 01:09:30.630 Well, that's the question that Authoritarians 01:09:30.630 --> 01:09:34.270 and fascists and Donald Trump wish you wouldn't 01:09:34.270 --> 01:09:36.949 ask. Bro, I'm good for that. I always like to 01:09:36.949 --> 01:09:39.810 ask questions that don't want me to ask. Right. 01:09:40.350 --> 01:09:42.770 Populism in its selective and staged form has 01:09:42.770 --> 01:09:44.789 little to do with reflecting the voice of the 01:09:44.789 --> 01:09:47.850 true people. And much more to do with inventing 01:09:47.850 --> 01:09:50.649 the people and dictating their voice to them. 01:09:51.149 --> 01:09:55.470 All in service to his agenda. He creates the 01:09:55.470 --> 01:09:58.970 people in his own image, narrowing who belongs 01:09:58.970 --> 01:10:02.689 and who doesn't, persecuting the outsiders, and 01:10:02.689 --> 01:10:05.750 weaponizing the fiction that institutions, democracy, 01:10:06.010 --> 01:10:09.930 and dissent are the problem. To circle back and 01:10:09.930 --> 01:10:12.409 answer our initial question, what does it mean 01:10:12.409 --> 01:10:14.789 when someone claims to speak on behalf of the 01:10:14.789 --> 01:10:17.890 people? It means we're about to catch a show. 01:10:18.409 --> 01:10:21.770 It'll be a spectacle. It'll be loud. It might 01:10:21.770 --> 01:10:24.649 even be entertaining. But it's not really about 01:10:24.649 --> 01:10:28.310 the people it's about power and it's dangerous. 01:10:29.649 --> 01:10:32.930 Oh, goodness gracious. Well, man, that's food 01:10:32.930 --> 01:10:35.670 for thought. Uh, for sure. Um, you know, since 01:10:35.670 --> 01:10:39.489 I'm talking about smelling something, um, but 01:10:39.489 --> 01:10:42.670 I mean, you know, honestly, if, if the conversation, 01:10:42.670 --> 01:10:44.930 you know, made you think listener, you know, 01:10:44.930 --> 01:10:46.949 don't leave it here. I mean, please, you know, 01:10:47.090 --> 01:10:49.489 share the episode discussion, discuss it on your 01:10:49.489 --> 01:10:52.510 social, in your social circles. I mean, and honestly 01:10:52.510 --> 01:10:55.149 push back against the populous slogans that seem 01:10:55.149 --> 01:10:59.470 to include you while excluding others, you know, 01:11:00.170 --> 01:11:02.729 use your voice. I mean, honestly, it's really 01:11:02.729 --> 01:11:05.369 important that we speak out right now. I mean, 01:11:05.369 --> 01:11:07.770 and we don't have to make these grand gestures, 01:11:07.909 --> 01:11:10.649 but you know, just speaking up when we hear things 01:11:10.649 --> 01:11:13.750 that. You know, don't resonate with the truth 01:11:13.750 --> 01:11:17.390 or don't resonate with the way of life that I 01:11:17.390 --> 01:11:21.239 think we, as you know, normal Americans. I mean, 01:11:21.479 --> 01:11:25.779 and I say that and that's a very broad, you know, 01:11:25.899 --> 01:11:27.960 term normal Americans because like really what 01:11:27.960 --> 01:11:29.659 is that? But I think that's the people who want 01:11:29.659 --> 01:11:32.600 the best for our country and our brothers and 01:11:32.600 --> 01:11:35.359 sisters in this country. I mean, you know, it 01:11:35.359 --> 01:11:37.859 seems like for so long that this country has 01:11:37.859 --> 01:11:45.289 been pushed to this ideal of the Christian. the 01:11:45.289 --> 01:11:47.510 nature of Christianity, but let's take a step 01:11:47.510 --> 01:11:50.810 back y 'all. The nature of Christianity was not 01:11:50.810 --> 01:11:53.310 what it is today. I mean, and honestly, I don't 01:11:53.310 --> 01:11:55.529 think Jesus would have ever even considered himself 01:11:55.529 --> 01:11:58.550 a Christian. He did not come down here to give 01:11:58.550 --> 01:12:03.390 us a set of rules to follow. He really gave us 01:12:03.390 --> 01:12:06.800 a roadmap on just how to treat each other. I 01:12:06.800 --> 01:12:09.119 mean, that's what the golden rule really boils 01:12:09.119 --> 01:12:12.819 down to, you know? So yes, please use your voice 01:12:12.819 --> 01:12:17.300 and don't let anyone else speak for you. Right, 01:12:17.520 --> 01:12:21.579 right. As always, we'd love to hear from you. 01:12:21.699 --> 01:12:24.340 Visit our socials, share your thoughts, leave 01:12:24.340 --> 01:12:26.659 us a review whenever you listen to our show. 01:12:27.319 --> 01:12:30.319 Next time, the final episode of our inaugural 01:12:30.319 --> 01:12:34.039 season. We'll talk about new speak and the distortion 01:12:34.039 --> 01:12:37.569 of language in service to authority. We'll also 01:12:37.569 --> 01:12:39.890 sunset the season with some final thoughts and 01:12:39.890 --> 01:12:43.050 a sneak peek of what's to come. Oh yeah. Yes. 01:12:43.050 --> 01:12:45.869 Y 'all for sure. We've got plans. We've got plans, 01:12:45.869 --> 01:12:49.170 you know, so don't miss out. In the meantime, 01:12:49.170 --> 01:12:56.590 I want to leave you with another quote from one 01:12:56.590 --> 01:13:00.329 of my favorite hip hop groups. Yes. And I really 01:13:00.329 --> 01:13:03.350 want you all to hear this. Okay. Because it's 01:13:03.350 --> 01:13:07.550 not just speaking about. the evil orange demon. 01:13:08.270 --> 01:13:11.449 It's really think about this. Let this sink in. 01:13:11.569 --> 01:13:18.229 Okay. Because a man of the fame is not a man 01:13:18.229 --> 01:13:24.810 of the people. So be a servant to the people, 01:13:25.430 --> 01:13:29.930 be kind to yourself. And of course, and as always, 01:13:30.229 --> 01:13:36.460 keep it weird, y 'all. Thank you for listening 01:13:36.460 --> 01:13:39.600 to Weird, Wicked and Wild. This episode was hosted 01:13:39.600 --> 01:13:42.880 by your buds, Jimmy and Jeremy. Research and 01:13:42.880 --> 01:13:45.859 writing by Dr. James Wills. Technical production 01:13:45.859 --> 01:13:49.039 and editing by Jeremy Caton. We'd love to hear 01:13:49.039 --> 01:13:52.159 from you. Subscribe, rate and review us on your 01:13:52.159 --> 01:13:55.300 favorite podcast platform. You can also find 01:13:55.300 --> 01:13:58.539 us on Instagram and Facebook. Thanks again for 01:13:58.539 --> 01:13:58.840 listening.